Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen. What's going to happen?
Speaker 2: What I.
Speaker 3: Welcome back to the occult rejects in this episode was
Speaker 3: stepping into the strange borderland where psychedelics, occultism, futurism, and
Speaker 3: counter culture mythology all collide. Most people know Timothy Leary
Speaker 3: as the Harvard psychologist Turns, Psychedelic Icon, the man of
Speaker 3: turn On, tune In, drop Out, the smiling prophet of
Speaker 3: chemical liberation, rebellion, and consciousness expansion. But behind that public
Speaker 3: image there was another Leary, a man fascinated by Taro
Speaker 3: magical thinking, Western eso terrorism, and the possibility that human
Speaker 3: consciousness was not merely evolving socially or psychologically.
Speaker 1: But cosmically. Our guest today is Joseph L.
Speaker 3: Flatley, investigative journalists and author of the new book The
Speaker 3: Occult Timothy Larry, The Taro Magical States and Post Terrestrial Evolution.
Speaker 3: In this work, he explores Leary's lesser known immersion in
Speaker 3: the occult tradition, his connection to the Eighth Circuit model
Speaker 3: of consciousness, his personal Tarot system, and his visions of
Speaker 3: human destiny beyond the planet itself. This is exactly the
Speaker 3: kind of territory. We love on this show because it
Speaker 3: forces us to ask. Was Timothy Larry just a psychedelic
Speaker 3: evangelist or was he part of a much older tradition,
Speaker 3: one that saw altered states as initiatory, symbolic, and even magical.
Speaker 3: Was he repacking ancient esoteric ideas for the technological age?
Speaker 3: And what happens when taro, ritual language, psychology, revolution, and
Speaker 3: futurism all begin to blur into one worldview. Now, before
Speaker 3: I introduce the rest of the panel and the guest,
Speaker 3: I would like to remind people about the website. We
Speaker 3: have Occult Research Institute dot org. If you're into reading.
Speaker 3: We have tons of information by multiple contributors, and we
Speaker 3: got t shirts up on the site if you're interested.
Speaker 3: Fun fact, the art is all based on the eyeball.
Speaker 3: All right, finally, enough out of me and Robbie. What
Speaker 3: is going on?
Speaker 1: Sir? How are you? Thank you very much for making
Speaker 1: it today.
Speaker 4: Hey, Nick, this is gonna be a great one. This
Speaker 4: is something that I've actually looked quite a bit into
Speaker 4: in the past. For those out there that don't know
Speaker 4: who I am, I'm Robbie Marx. I'm an artist, illustrator
Speaker 4: and researcher. And you can check out all my various
Speaker 4: other works at my link tree which is link tre
Speaker 4: r m a r X and that'll pull up all
Speaker 4: my social media, my Patreon as well as my metamind cast,
Speaker 4: where you can check out some more of all my
Speaker 4: various works. And yeah, again, this is gonna be a
Speaker 4: good one. I'm excited.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was glad you made it for this one.
Speaker 3: I figured he'd really be interested in this. Thank you
Speaker 3: very much for making it, Robbie, and we got Joseph
Speaker 3: aka Lenny. What is going on, sir?
Speaker 1: How are you?
Speaker 3: Is there anything you'd like to add that maybe I
Speaker 3: left out or something.
Speaker 5: Now, I think that's a great intro, like the you know,
Speaker 5: I think a lot of the criticism of not only Leary,
Speaker 5: but a lot of the thinkers of the sixties and
Speaker 5: seventies and the kind of like pre new age occult
Speaker 5: explosion of the psychedelic era is that they merely repackaged
Speaker 5: material from the East when really, and Leary was very
Speaker 5: clear about this, like prior even to his becoming a
Speaker 5: well known public figure, when he was a lecturer at Harvard,
Speaker 5: they looked to the East and to the magical systems
Speaker 5: of the West, precisely because they knew that when they
Speaker 5: started looking at psychede Elix, that the academic literature and
Speaker 5: the scientific literature at the time just did not do
Speaker 5: an adequate job of explaining what was going on. So
Speaker 5: they they looked for precursors, you know, in all of
Speaker 5: human history. Like they knew that they weren't the first
Speaker 5: people dealing with this stuff. They couldn't have been, but
Speaker 5: you know, if you went to Harvard you might think that.
Speaker 5: So they purposefully look to the east, look to the west,
Speaker 5: looks at the past, and it's you know, it's just
Speaker 5: such a fertile topic for conversation. I'm very excited to
Speaker 5: get to it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, No, for sure, for sure.
Speaker 3: Uh, the first question I had, I guess, uh, what
Speaker 3: first pulled you toward Timothy Larry's a cult side specifically,
Speaker 3: instead of more his familiar psychedelic or political Timothy Leary side.
Speaker 5: You know, it's always been there, kind of under you know,
Speaker 5: It's like tim worked through so many different areas and
Speaker 5: disciplines and worked so quickly and never had he was
Speaker 5: not a rigorous scientist. He never had time to he
Speaker 5: never took the time to lay things out very like
Speaker 5: methodically and specifically, Like you'll read his books and he'll
Speaker 5: use like five different names for the same term and
Speaker 5: never explain what he's doing, or like you look through
Speaker 5: his bibliography and like when the whim hits him, he'll
Speaker 5: like change the titles of books from like twenty years ago.
Speaker 5: So it's very like he was just very ad hoc,
Speaker 5: very just like you know, just rolling with it, rolling
Speaker 5: with punches, surfing the waves. But there were always these
Speaker 5: tantalizing clues and statements that were perhaps under explored in
Speaker 5: Larry's work and in Robert Anton Wilson's book were connecting
Speaker 5: this stuff to magic in the occult, and I mean
Speaker 5: people knew about it. There was there was a period
Speaker 5: of time where it seemed like every occult writer referenced
Speaker 5: Leary's circuits, but like when you would dig into it,
Speaker 5: they didn't necessarily. It was almost like it was like
Speaker 5: the rigger, we have to mention this, but no, But
Speaker 5: when I would follow up with them, nobody really was
Speaker 5: working with the circuits in a I think maybe uh
Speaker 5: one of Jason Augustus Newcomb's books might have been the
Speaker 5: most serious attempt to look at Leary's ideas in the
Speaker 5: in the context of Western esotericism, but there wasn't a
Speaker 5: ton out there, and I just felt like it felt
Speaker 5: the eight circuit model felt to me like it was
Speaker 5: important and I wanted to dig into it and really
Speaker 5: see if there was a there there. I could have
Speaker 5: done that and found nothing. I could have like wasted
Speaker 5: a year, five years of my life or whatever. But
Speaker 5: what I instead found is that it's even was even
Speaker 5: a more fertile area to explore than you know, I
Speaker 5: knew when I undertook this project.
Speaker 3: I actually had a couple of people on maybe about
Speaker 3: a month or so ago for the eighth Circuit Model.
Speaker 3: It's pretty interesting.
Speaker 5: Yeah, was that Rachel and Douglas Wingate?
Speaker 1: Yah?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I heard that episode, and yeah, it's really interesting.
Speaker 5: When I started working on this project, Douglas, well, both
Speaker 5: of them were the some of the first people I found,
Speaker 5: and so we kind of like worked on our projects simultaneously.
Speaker 5: And of course they're coming from like a clinical background
Speaker 5: and I'm coming from a magical background. But yeah, they
Speaker 5: read my book and gave me notes and vice versa,
Speaker 5: and it's really exciting and to see a few different
Speaker 5: people exploring this stuff nowadays, and like currently, I think
Speaker 5: maybe there might be a small little Leary renaissance in
Speaker 5: the office. But it's very exciting that they're able to
Speaker 5: use the model in their field, which is kind of
Speaker 5: distinct from mine. But again, how how distinct can it
Speaker 5: be if we're both able to go down the same
Speaker 5: rabbit hole there, you know.
Speaker 4: From a therapeutic perspective per se versus an internal.
Speaker 5: Well yeah, yeah, and you know the important part is that,
Speaker 5: you know, Robert Anton Wilson had a term maybe logic,
Speaker 5: which you know, which is like maybe maybe it's you know,
Speaker 5: it's it's it's it's a it's a worldview or a
Speaker 5: type of logic where you place things that you can't
Speaker 5: quite confirm into a into its own box. And like,
Speaker 5: h I think a lot of people understand what that
Speaker 5: means intellectually, but not necessarily can live that way. But
Speaker 5: when you when you understand that, and you understand the
Speaker 5: idea that what Leary and Wilson created with the Hrivant
Speaker 5: models a framework for approaching knowledge. It can be used
Speaker 5: in all different kinds of fields or modalities.
Speaker 4: Right, yeah, And Robert Anton Wilson specifically, you know, when
Speaker 4: he's talking he invents new words to describe things. He
Speaker 4: has these categories where they mean both the sides of
Speaker 4: the same thing to encounter. It's very interesting Robert Anton
Speaker 4: Wilson's logic. But as far as Leary himself, you know,
Speaker 4: when there's the one video where Leary says he's continuing
Speaker 4: the work of Alistair Crowley, you know, and and can
Speaker 4: you get into any of that stuff where he didn't
Speaker 4: they go and recreate some of the journeys of Crowley
Speaker 4: and kind of.
Speaker 5: Not to cut you off. Yeah, yeah, So one of
Speaker 5: the antecedents, an I don't know if that's right. One
Speaker 5: of the precedents of of the psychedelic research that they
Speaker 5: discovered alongside people like William S. Burrows and Aldus Huxley
Speaker 5: was Alistair Crowley. And there's a really interesting story. And
Speaker 5: and John d was another one that you know, influenced
Speaker 5: Leary quite a bit. And Learry was not like a
Speaker 5: methodical occultist. He didn't like leave like rituals and ritual
Speaker 5: rubric and you know, like but he but all these
Speaker 5: things GURGIAF. Crowley all informed his practice. So when he
Speaker 5: was in Algeria, when he was in exile because the
Speaker 5: he like escaped from prison. He was with a colleague
Speaker 5: named Brian Barrett and they were in Boosada. I never
Speaker 5: I'm not sure how to pronounce it, the area in
Speaker 5: Algiers in Algeria where Crowley and Victor Newburgh were doing
Speaker 5: anachi and rituals. And you know, Leary and Barrett were
Speaker 5: there tripping and they saw this figure and it, you know,
Speaker 5: and they knew it had to do with John Dee
Speaker 5: and they didn't know what was going on. And then
Speaker 5: like a year later they discovered that that was the
Speaker 5: exact same area where Newburg and Crowley were doing these rituals.
Speaker 5: And then Leary took that a step further and when
Speaker 5: he was back in prison in the United States, he
Speaker 5: developed a ritual. It was him and a fellow prisoner
Speaker 5: named Wayne Benner and their partners, and they developed a
Speaker 5: practice that was similar in a lot of ways to
Speaker 5: Dee and Kelly's practice and channeled transmissions from who knows where,
Speaker 5: the angelic realm, the angelic realm, their DNA, you know something, right,
Speaker 5: but so so yeah, so the occult was an influence,
Speaker 5: but Learry wasn't the type of person to like, you know,
Speaker 5: I think I think many of us. If we have
Speaker 5: like one or two good insights in life, we're lucky,
Speaker 5: and we beat the hell out of it and we
Speaker 5: repeat it over and over. I think Leary was the
Speaker 5: kind of person that, you know, by the time something happened,
Speaker 5: he was already onto the next thing. So so he
Speaker 5: didn't really explore this occult stuff quite as much as
Speaker 5: I explored it for him.
Speaker 4: But it was part of the package of the things
Speaker 4: that were surround the ethos, the zeitgeist of the time.
Speaker 5: Mm hmm. Yeah.
Speaker 3: When you began this project, what do you think was
Speaker 3: like the biggest misconception people had about uh, Larry that
Speaker 3: he kind of wanted to correct.
Speaker 5: Well, you know, it was literally just trying to understand
Speaker 5: for all the references to Crowley and to magic in
Speaker 5: the tarot, in Larry's more obscure works, if there was
Speaker 5: really are you know, if it really was an important
Speaker 5: part or not, you know. And then there were some
Speaker 5: dead ends, like I read an article about the like
Speaker 5: the New York City occult scene in the nineteen seventies
Speaker 5: and how they were really into Larry's eight circuit model
Speaker 5: is prior magical practice, And I spoke to Peter Lavenda
Speaker 5: about it because he was there and he said, yeah,
Speaker 5: we don't. I don't somebody made that up, you know. So,
Speaker 5: I mean, there was like a lot of these dead ends,
Speaker 5: but there is a very strong through line of Larry's
Speaker 5: work from the sixties, late fifties through you know, the
Speaker 5: end of his life that is held together by the
Speaker 5: occult and occult practice.
Speaker 1: Awesome to thank you.
Speaker 3: Do you think Leary himself understood that he was kind
Speaker 3: of operating in a i mean, in an occult lineage,
Speaker 3: or was he borrowing symbols and methods fully identifying as
Speaker 3: an occultist.
Speaker 5: No, he absolutely was aware he was a part of
Speaker 5: a tradition. He considered himself a reincarnation of Aleister Crowley.
Speaker 5: Which it's kind of funny because Crowley died in forty
Speaker 5: seven and Leary was born twenty years earlier. But his
Speaker 5: definition of you know, he had a very interesting perspective
Speaker 5: on reincarnation. He felt that any person who left a
Speaker 5: really strong imprint on your DNA, on the couct of
Speaker 5: unconscious could be said to be a reincarnation, you know,
Speaker 5: to be reincarnated through you. That's how we explained that.
Speaker 5: But yeah, so he he was, he really brought magic
Speaker 5: and space exploration and space migration together. He felt that
Speaker 5: our goal as a species was to leave the planet.
Speaker 5: He thought that we could not continue to evolve beyond
Speaker 5: a certain point if we're stuck on planet Earth. So
Speaker 5: he had a lot of these, you know, he had
Speaker 5: a lot of these concepts and slogans really that were
Speaker 5: his own, unique to him, but also refer to magic
Speaker 5: magical practice like turn in turn onto an in drop
Speaker 5: out as the one everybody knows, which is really magical ritual,
Speaker 5: like that's his summary of magical ritual or smile, space migration, intelligence,
Speaker 5: increase in life extension. He thought that that was the
Speaker 5: ultimate goal of humanity, and he very much framed it.
Speaker 5: I don't even think this has ever been published, but
Speaker 5: I read in his letters to Robert Anton Wilson in
Speaker 5: the New York Public Library where they keep the archives
Speaker 5: of Timothy Leary's archives, he wrote that, you know, Leary
Speaker 5: or Larry Crowley said do what thou will. But the
Speaker 5: question is then what do you do with that? You know,
Speaker 5: what do you will? And he said, you know, the
Speaker 5: answer is has to be space migration, intelligence, increase in
Speaker 5: life extension. So he is very aware that he was
Speaker 5: part of a lineage.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think he kind of made that
Speaker 3: obvious in the previous stuff you said. It was just
Speaker 3: you know, one of my questions anyway, Robbie, did you
Speaker 3: have anything you wanted to ask before I keep going?
Speaker 4: Yeah, just well, not necessarily asked, but just to add
Speaker 4: I met Leary, I don't know, it must have been
Speaker 4: ninety two or ninety three, and spend the evening with him,
Speaker 4: and he was at that time, this is when he
Speaker 4: was lecturing on the ideas of merger machine consciousnesses with
Speaker 4: human consciousnesses and the idea of that accelerating and leading
Speaker 4: to our ability to be able to become a second
Speaker 4: tier civilization and get off the planet because of the
Speaker 4: you know, when you get into the histories and the
Speaker 4: constant destructions that happen cyclically. But yeah, I just think
Speaker 4: it's it's very interesting just all the and I think
Speaker 4: that psychedelic culture in general is highly wrapped up in
Speaker 4: esoteric and occult ideas simply due to its international or
Speaker 4: it's into relationship between consciousness and transcendence.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and you know, and that's I think the important
Speaker 5: thing about Leary Leary in relation to the occult is
Speaker 5: like he's not expl I mean he is to an extent,
Speaker 5: like he's not making absolute claim of this is what
Speaker 5: this experience is, or this is what a spirit is,
Speaker 5: you know, or how many angels can fit on the
Speaker 5: head of a pin. He's like giving a framework for
Speaker 5: understanding like different experiences that we as occultist ramistics or whatever.
Speaker 5: Experience like satory sensory bliss is very much like a
Speaker 5: c fifth circuit phenomenon or high magic really works with
Speaker 5: the sixth circuit, or if you start talking about archetypes
Speaker 5: or you know, collective unconscious talking about the seventh circuit.
Speaker 5: So he's not making claims about like he has theories
Speaker 5: about like where those places things might reside in the brain.
Speaker 5: And a lot of his science is now going to
Speaker 5: be you know, old, because he's been dead for thirty
Speaker 5: years and he was writing twenty years before that. But
Speaker 5: still as a framework, it's very useful for kind of
Speaker 5: categorize what your experience. And that's a lot of like
Speaker 5: what Douglas Wingate and doctor Rachel Tureski discussed in their
Speaker 5: book eight Circuit Ascension is using the same framework for
Speaker 5: psychedelic assistent therapy. You know, Jason Augustus Newcomb, and I
Speaker 5: think it's twenty one of his books, twenty first century
Speaker 5: Mage maybe refers to the circuits as you know, different
Speaker 5: experiences along the magical path. So I think this stuff
Speaker 5: is really useful for in a number of areas. But
Speaker 5: it's useful, but it's not like absolutely the truth of
Speaker 5: the capital today.
Speaker 4: It's a system that's been found to work for the
Speaker 4: individuals that use it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, go ahead, Well.
Speaker 4: I was going to say, I think that a lot
Speaker 4: of these philosophies, dating back, you know, to pre Mystery
Speaker 4: School and back into Egyptian the culture kind of takes
Speaker 4: on and uses the familiar things as symbols to uh
Speaker 4: basically you know, and as the fractal moves, those things
Speaker 4: manifest in different ways, becoming into the modern systems that
Speaker 4: we're trying to understand and regulate.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, there's a lot to unpack there. Uh yeah,
Speaker 5: but uh yeah, yeah, I agree.
Speaker 3: Uh, there's a question real quick before I ask you
Speaker 3: another one, de Larry, have any theories about reincarnation?
Speaker 5: You know, a lot of the like kind of more Yes,
Speaker 5: like he thought it was you know, he thought he
Speaker 5: was reincarnation of Timothy Leary, or of Robert Alistair Crowley.
Speaker 5: There's a lot of names thrown around, but yeah, yeah,
Speaker 5: he felt that reincarnation, like, you know, he felt that
Speaker 5: at a specific, fake level of consciousness, one could interact
Speaker 5: with whatever the collective unconsciousness unconscious unconscious is, and he
Speaker 5: thought that reincarnation was kind of borrowing from Like so
Speaker 5: it's not like, you know, he's making no claims about
Speaker 5: spiritual the soul, but like, you know, whatever Alistair Crowley
Speaker 5: left lying around in the DNA, Leary picked up on
Speaker 5: and ran with it. He you know, he was continuing
Speaker 5: the same He called it a life script, and it
Speaker 5: wasn't like a literal thing, but as a metaphor, you know,
Speaker 5: it's kind of like a TV script. You'll you'll find
Speaker 5: that a lot of the common New Age or occult
Speaker 5: concepts that people take literally, Leary really made fun of.
Speaker 5: He didn't take it literally, but he saw all his
Speaker 5: pointing towards something I'm very much of the mind, and
Speaker 5: I probably get this from a lifelong fascination with Leary
Speaker 5: and Wilson, is that I'm not really interested in defining
Speaker 5: or explaining things that are kind of ineffable, like even
Speaker 5: talking about spirits. It's like what you think you're gonna
Speaker 5: like weigh a spirit, you know. So it's like like
Speaker 5: I understand it's people use that concept and it's very useful,
Speaker 5: and like the magicians I know that like kind of
Speaker 5: work traditionally in traditional paths or whatever seem to be
Speaker 5: a lot more effective than the ones. I know, this
Speaker 5: is just anecdotal that are like chaos musicians. Anything goes.
Speaker 5: But I don't think that necessarily says anything about the
Speaker 5: reality underlying what they're doing as much as perhaps technique,
Speaker 5: if that makes any sense whatsoever.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, another question, really well, I mean I want
Speaker 3: to ask if you know about this Leary reference to
Speaker 3: the Best Book of the Dead somewhat often.
Speaker 5: Yeah, he actually, you know, I talked about him. They
Speaker 5: they were looking for pre precursors to psychedelic research, and
Speaker 5: when he was at Harvard, they discovered that Tibetan Book
Speaker 5: of the Dead was actually a very useful manual for
Speaker 5: reprogramming personality and consciousness using psychedelics. So they saw he
Speaker 5: saw and used the Tibetan Book of the Dead as
Speaker 5: like a manual, like a like an owner's manual or
Speaker 5: or how to manual for for you know, psilocybin trips
Speaker 5: and LSD.
Speaker 4: Trips and ascended states.
Speaker 5: Ascended states correct. And Alvis Huxley actually, when he was
Speaker 5: on his deathbed, his wife led a session with him,
Speaker 5: an LSD session using Timothy Leary and his colleagues. They
Speaker 5: rewrote they did kind of like a psychedelic translation of
Speaker 5: the Benton Book of the Dead, and you know Aldus Huxley, yeah,
Speaker 5: used that and his wife used that to guide a
Speaker 5: trip when he was on his deathbed. So yeah, so yeah,
Speaker 5: it was definitely they definitely found the East to be
Speaker 5: fertile ground. I mean just the fact that all those guys,
Speaker 5: so it was kind of like the Triumvirent Richard Metzner,
Speaker 5: Ralph Metzner, Richard Alferd who became Barba rom DAWs, and
Speaker 5: Tim Leary we're kind of the research team or the
Speaker 5: head guys, and you know, they all had their extended
Speaker 5: periods of time in India, and of course Richard Albert
Speaker 5: became Barbara ram Das, so there's a real influence there
Speaker 5: as well. Yeah, which is following, you know, along with
Speaker 5: like you know, what's his name, Alan Bennett and Alistair
Speaker 5: Crowley taking or you know, borrowing or learning from the
Speaker 5: East and there right socialists.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And what I think is interesting when you look
Speaker 4: at Alistair Crowley's history, and I don't know if you've
Speaker 4: there's a couple of research papers that he had a
Speaker 4: burlesque banjo troupe that they would basically take over these
Speaker 4: bars and then on admission, when you paid your entry fee,
Speaker 4: they would give you a cup of wine full of
Speaker 4: with mescaline and you would go in and basically they
Speaker 4: would have a theatrical, musical, kind of ritual show that
Speaker 4: entailed some aspects of the cult, some aspects of theater,
Speaker 4: some aspects of music. But then kind of when you
Speaker 4: trace that forward into the modern musical scene, getting into
Speaker 4: the acid tests, getting into the human being, and right
Speaker 4: up into the modern festival scene, where this has kind
Speaker 4: of become a large scale cultural kind of initiation practice
Speaker 4: per se.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean that's really wild. They called it the
Speaker 5: Rights of Eleusis, I believe was Curley's thing, Yeah, and
Speaker 5: it was, yeah, and he was. Curley was very aware
Speaker 5: of the fact that ritual, that feeder comes from ritual,
Speaker 5: and at one point theater and ritual were the same thing.
Speaker 5: And you know, and then you know, the psychedelic pioneers,
Speaker 5: not just Leary, but certainly Leary and the commune he
Speaker 5: had at Millbrook where purposefully worked, you know, trying to
Speaker 5: find different art forms that correspond to different states of consciousness,
Speaker 5: including psychedelic art.
Speaker 3: Yeah, one thing I wanted to ask you, I do
Speaker 3: know you mentioned in your book that you do think
Speaker 3: he kind of was involved or engaged with Western essotticism.
Speaker 3: What do you think his practice, what do you think
Speaker 3: his practice looked like?
Speaker 5: Because of that, I don't know that he had like
Speaker 5: a practice as much as you know, he was doing
Speaker 5: his thing, you know, he was he was doing his research,
Speaker 5: and I think I think his practice was focused primarily
Speaker 5: on you know, his research, but then trying to find
Speaker 5: precedence for it. So like I do know that in
Speaker 5: at Millbrook they did a lot with gurd Jiff, they
Speaker 5: you know, and you know, there was the as they
Speaker 5: got more into the acid and got more into the
Speaker 5: hardcore stuff, they kind of got more into Crowley. There
Speaker 5: was the Indian period. It was really a you know,
Speaker 5: it was they had a great freedom in the fact
Speaker 5: that they weren't really very good academics, so they really
Speaker 5: so they could pick and choose and borrow and just
Speaker 5: do whatever they damn well pleased.
Speaker 4: It's kind of very artistic in a sense.
Speaker 3: So I, uh, you know, I should have asked this
Speaker 3: prior because it would have made more sense. Do you
Speaker 3: think he was more in the philosophical kind of a
Speaker 3: cold angle than the actual ual and practice.
Speaker 5: I think, well, no, he was definitely. I think his
Speaker 5: actual practice practice was far more of Eastern stuff, like
Speaker 5: that sort of thing. But you know, fully aware that
Speaker 5: the East and the West were kind of plumbing the
Speaker 5: same depth depths, you know, I think, you know, I
Speaker 5: think I think he, you know, took psychedelics and he's like, wow,
Speaker 5: how do I explain this? And it's like to borrow
Speaker 5: some stuff from the East, some stuff from the West,
Speaker 5: put it together. And I also think that he was
Speaker 5: of a type who I don't know if I agree
Speaker 5: with this, but I think he was of a type
Speaker 5: where it's like he spent so much time on these,
Speaker 5: like doing so many drugs that he kind of felt
Speaker 5: didn't feel the need to like do a rigorous Golden
Speaker 5: Dawn style right building of the subjective synthesis.
Speaker 4: Now I have a question there, And if you don't know,
Speaker 4: you know, but there. I've heard some discussion on the
Speaker 4: idea that Leary went to Congress and basically pursued making
Speaker 4: LSD illegal and then coming back and pushing it as
Speaker 4: a taboo substance to make it more a you know,
Speaker 4: a draw to assimilate into society.
Speaker 5: No, he actually went, he testified before Congress trying to
Speaker 5: get it to be no no, yeah, yeah, yeah. So
Speaker 5: he was his his whole you know, and it's it's
Speaker 5: pretty interesting. You can read like the transcripts of it.
Speaker 5: It was a total shit show. Like basically Ted Kennedy
Speaker 5: as a uh you know, he saw a good he
Speaker 5: saw a good pr opportunity, so he called Tim Leary
Speaker 5: in front of Congress and raked him through the coles.
Speaker 5: And Leary's entire message was that if you want to regul,
Speaker 5: if you're serious about doing something with this, have it
Speaker 5: regulated and have doctors kind of oversee things, which you know, personally,
Speaker 5: I I, you know, regulation sounds scary and I don't
Speaker 5: trust my doctor to control my trip. But but I
Speaker 5: mean that does make more sense than creating a war
Speaker 5: on drugs and sending a whole generation in prison, which
Speaker 5: is what happened, and which is what Leary predicted on
Speaker 5: the floor of Congress.
Speaker 6: Did hey, hey, crew, Hey crew, I'm here now. It's
Speaker 6: nice to see everybody. It's nice to meet you, Lenny
Speaker 6: and maybe day Marx. How are we today?
Speaker 1: Good?
Speaker 2: I'm great?
Speaker 6: What I want? Did you hit on the fact that, uh,
Speaker 6: that that Leary thought that he was moving on and
Speaker 6: continuing the work of Crowley, which I think is like
Speaker 6: fascinating in and of itself and all things.
Speaker 4: But he also credited the CIA with the pushing of
Speaker 4: the the substance into culture for more so than any
Speaker 4: other force, at least that's what I saw in an interview.
Speaker 6: Well, that's definitely true because of how much that the
Speaker 6: CIA then gave LSD to the Grateful Dead during those
Speaker 6: time periods, and so they were some of the main
Speaker 6: proponents of pushing LSD in the time frame let alone
Speaker 6: with MK Ultra and all those things going on.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and you know, I mean, it just says a
Speaker 5: lot about the consciousness level of the CIA that when
Speaker 5: you look at the MK ulture experiments, which you know,
Speaker 5: they funded, they didn't like lead them, They just they
Speaker 5: just made the bank roll, you know, paid them, paid
Speaker 5: the money. And you know, people like you and Cameron
Speaker 5: did the dirty work. But you know, they had access
Speaker 5: to all the LSC they could possibly want, and all
Speaker 5: they can think to do is like strap people to
Speaker 5: beds and.
Speaker 4: And strobe them. Yeah, like messages playing in the background.
Speaker 6: That they couldn't actually because they wanted a truth serum, right,
Speaker 6: the exoteric understanding of these things. But they really got
Speaker 6: exactly what they wanted for the fact that they were
Speaker 6: able to put people into imprint vulnerability, and upon doing so,
Speaker 6: they understood how to put an entire population into imprint
Speaker 6: vulnerability by the usages and movements through the blue light
Speaker 6: and everything that's going on with the electronics today. So
Speaker 6: without the understanding of the nervous system, with the LSD
Speaker 6: experiments and mk ultra, we wouldn't have the kind of
Speaker 6: electronic Internet culture that we have today, which is fascinating.
Speaker 3: One thing, Lenny, I did want to ask you a
Speaker 3: little bit more back to the magic because I want
Speaker 3: to just kind of get an idea what this man
Speaker 3: was into when it comes to I guess traditions and
Speaker 3: I guess maybe influences and occult ideas. Who seemed to
Speaker 3: have influenced him the most besides Crawley is.
Speaker 5: Uh, you know, that's a good question. I mean, he
Speaker 5: I think it was a whole I think Gerjieff was
Speaker 5: probably the biggest influence on him, and and a lot
Speaker 5: of his work was not strictly psychedelic. I mean Timothy
Speaker 5: Leary obviously loved his psychedelics, but as far as like
Speaker 5: actual research and you know, into the and how to,
Speaker 5: I mean, really the whole goal, like psychedelics was just
Speaker 5: the tool. The goal was the liberation of humankind. And
Speaker 5: I think he saw humans as robots in a very
Speaker 5: similar way as Gertcheff did his mechanical clockwork mechanisms. And
Speaker 5: I think that he was mostly influenced by Gerjieff in
Speaker 5: his attempts to break humanity free.
Speaker 6: And have you talked about how one of his massive
Speaker 6: influences was obviously John C. Lilly and his Eight Circuits
Speaker 6: of Consciousness and the Human Biocomputer, which is deeply integrated.
Speaker 6: Even though it's not known as a magical grimoire, I
Speaker 6: think it's one of the most foretelling magical grimoires of
Speaker 6: our time frame due to the cybernetics and how important
Speaker 6: it is to understand the nervous system on is exactly
Speaker 6: what magic is doing well.
Speaker 5: Sure, yeah, I mean the eighth circuit model is Leary's.
Speaker 5: But yeah, that's drugsy.
Speaker 6: Lilies first the programming and metaprogramming the human biocomputer, and
Speaker 6: then Leary took it and made it into an eight
Speaker 6: circuit model.
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, programming and metaprogramming is a important work.
Speaker 1: And is that to do with the dolphins?
Speaker 5: Ye?
Speaker 6: And deprivation tanks? Yeah, yeah, he created the deprivation tanks.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah. Learry's eight circuit model came from actually the
Speaker 5: work he was doing in the fifties at uh was
Speaker 5: it the Kaiser Institute in San Francisco or in the
Speaker 5: in Oakland? And but yeah he he and Lily were
Speaker 5: like attacking the same problem from like different not even
Speaker 5: different but just slightly different ankles, and and they met
Speaker 5: in the middle. And yeah, Lily is extremely important. Yeah,
Speaker 5: you can't have one without the other, for sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Liarry wasn't dolphins though.
Speaker 5: Well, I don't have any I don't have any proof.
Speaker 6: I don't know. I don't actually yeah, and I don't
Speaker 6: actually know. I think it's fascinating and I will be honest, Nick,
Speaker 6: I think the whole jerking off dolphins thing, even though
Speaker 6: it may have happened, I think, is how the exoteric
Speaker 6: Christian conspiracy theorist degrades the work that which then brings
Speaker 6: it back into the It's not all dicks and demons,
Speaker 6: it's not all dolphins and jerking off. It's it's you know,
Speaker 6: it's how you know how important it is to know
Speaker 6: that John C. Lily did his work, because that book
Speaker 6: is so amazing. It was a catalyst in my own
Speaker 6: understanding for the human nervous system. And what then how
Speaker 6: Robert Anton Wilson came on and then created, you know,
Speaker 6: wrote Prometheus Rising from all that kind of work.
Speaker 5: Didn't Lily right, like purposefully right the beginning of the
Speaker 5: book to be like really dry and boring, so that
Speaker 5: like his funders wouldn't get to the good stuff and
Speaker 5: realize what he was saying.
Speaker 2: That's exactly it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's funny. Yeah, nice. Did anybody have any questions
Speaker 1: before I keep going? Right?
Speaker 3: What makes the tarot deck? I know you get into
Speaker 3: the tarot deck correct with in your book?
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the kind of the selling point.
Speaker 5: So Leary and Robert Anton Wilson. One of the most
Speaker 5: interesting things I think aspects of Leary is or maybe
Speaker 5: just the thing that I resonate the most with or
Speaker 5: I admire is that, like his writing, his work was
Speaker 5: the most important thing. Like even when he was in prison,
Speaker 5: he wasn't you know, he was spending time trying to
Speaker 5: get out of prison, but he was spending more time
Speaker 5: like writing and self publishing these books that nobody wanted,
Speaker 5: you know. And he explored the levels of consciousness and
Speaker 5: occult correspondences with Robert Anton Wilson. They found found that
Speaker 5: when Leary first started exploring psychedelic drugs and mapping out
Speaker 5: the states of consciousness, he found that he met Brian Barrett,
Speaker 5: who was just like a drug e poet guy who
Speaker 5: was also mapping in his own way the states of consciousness,
Speaker 5: and they discovered they were like working in the same area.
Speaker 5: That was kind of like one of the first things
Speaker 5: that made Leary go, wow, I'm onto something like somebody
Speaker 5: else from a different part of the planet is exploring
Speaker 5: the exact same ground I am there must be something
Speaker 5: objective to the psychedelic experience or experience of consciousness. And
Speaker 5: then when he started looking at tarot astrology, the Olympian gods,
Speaker 5: all these different areas of occultism, he found correspondences. The
Speaker 5: subject of correspondences is really interesting and really important because
Speaker 5: I think I think a lot of what correspondence correspondences
Speaker 5: does in magical practice is it creates a framework. So
Speaker 5: it's like, maybe there's no factual truth, like one hundred
Speaker 5: percent factual objective truth in like Crowley's seven seven seven,
Speaker 5: but if you internalize that, it's very powerful magic. And
Speaker 5: I think Leary was working with that, so he kind
Speaker 5: of formulated his When he talks about the layers levels
Speaker 5: of consciousness, he's not just talking about what we experience
Speaker 5: as humans. He's also experienced talking about the evolution of
Speaker 5: consciousness through thousands and millions of years. So he pausits
Speaker 5: there were twenty four levels of past and future consciousness
Speaker 5: or evolution, and he mapped them onto the tarot trumps.
Speaker 5: Now there's only twenty two tear trumps, so he had
Speaker 5: to invent a couple. But and then, and then, to me,
Speaker 5: it became a really interesting question like if we go
Speaker 5: the other way, if I start experimenting with taro using
Speaker 5: Leary's definitions and symbolism, well I have effective results. And
Speaker 5: I found it and I found it to be very useful,
Speaker 5: So I think that's kind of like confirmation that there's
Speaker 5: something to all this.
Speaker 6: Well that and just to add into that which I
Speaker 6: which is great. I love. That is the idea of
Speaker 6: the how the major arcana is also an evolutionary process
Speaker 6: and progress through time. So we find that one of
Speaker 6: the easiest ways to even describe that is what Alan
Speaker 6: Moore does in Promethea, and in Promethea in the first
Speaker 6: volume or volume so I can't remember what it is,
Speaker 6: but he actually, you know, is talking about, yes, it
Speaker 6: is something for the human individual and how we evolve
Speaker 6: to higher states of consciousness and we go through the
Speaker 6: hero's journey. But he's directly stating how a civilization starts
Speaker 6: from that seedling, that full type character all the way
Speaker 6: to the merging to the next ayon with the universe
Speaker 6: and things like that, and so right, I do highly
Speaker 6: recommend everyone going out as always, as I always say,
Speaker 6: go read Promethea by Alan Moore, because it's a beautiful
Speaker 6: grimoire in and of itself to show what it looks
Speaker 6: like when a whole civilization is brought to the brink
Speaker 6: of apocalypse, and what an apocalyptic what apocalypse can look
Speaker 6: like on a mass scale when the you know, Promethea
Speaker 6: then brings it upon and eminetize the esca seon.
Speaker 3: Was there a anything else, like really about the taro
Speaker 3: that you would like to kind of touch on it,
Speaker 3: Like you said more poor part of the book.
Speaker 5: Well, you know, it's the tarot in my book is
Speaker 5: utilized a couple of ways. It's utilized as a much
Speaker 5: like we described that Alice Alan Moore book as kind
Speaker 5: of like a narrative of evolution, not only you know,
Speaker 5: not only to where we are now, but to where
Speaker 5: we're going in the future. And but also the symbol,
Speaker 5: the signs and symbols of the Leary tarot are useful
Speaker 5: as and it it's like it's not the same as
Speaker 5: the traditional major arcana, but they speak to each other
Speaker 5: in a really interesting way. Yeah. Yeah, so that's like
Speaker 5: I talked to Douglas Rushkoff and he said that Leary
Speaker 5: told him that The Game of Life, which is Leary's
Speaker 5: tarot book, was like his most important book. But Leary
Speaker 5: considered it his to be his own most important book.
Speaker 5: But it's also like, well it's not in print and
Speaker 5: it's hard to read, so mine's kind of like a dummy,
Speaker 5: like like the Game of Life for dummies, I think
Speaker 5: I think people will. And also Leary had his own
Speaker 5: way of reading the tarot. He he did a read it.
Speaker 5: He would do readings with only the major Arcana cards
Speaker 5: and he would he would, you know, whatever, shuffle him
Speaker 5: lay him out. So he would lay him out in
Speaker 5: seven rows of three, so that's seven circuits. He only
Speaker 5: worked with seven circuits, even though there were eight and
Speaker 5: one stage of each circuit. And then there's twenty two
Speaker 5: major arcana cards, so you're going to have one left over.
Speaker 5: So then you go through the cards that you laid
Speaker 5: out and you find the fool and that becomes a significator.
Speaker 5: So then you take whatever cards left over and you
Speaker 5: put it in this array and that will tell you
Speaker 5: what specific circuit and stage your reading corresponds to. And
Speaker 5: then the card obviously is the reading itself. And if
Speaker 5: the fool, and if the fool is left over, then
Speaker 5: he says, scrap it, don't it's not time to do
Speaker 5: a reading. So so there you have like an interesting
Speaker 5: So he was obviously, and uh, I think Brian Barrett
Speaker 5: told John Higgs like that's how Leary read his tarot cards.
Speaker 5: So obviously the signs and symbolism of the circuits was
Speaker 5: he considered it not just like an explanation of what
Speaker 5: a scientific explanation of consciousness but or evolution, but as
Speaker 5: symbolism that can be used for divination, which he's never
Speaker 5: written about anywhere. It's never like you not, you would
Speaker 5: not think that from reading his work, but you know,
Speaker 5: it just happens to be like a footnote in uh
Speaker 5: a biography of Timothy Leary that explains that. So there,
Speaker 5: That's what I was doing a lot of with this book,
Speaker 5: reading through everything that Tim's written or that's been written
Speaker 5: about tim and trying to find the breadcrumbs to like
Speaker 5: things that refer to the Western esoteric tradition, which might
Speaker 5: all be bullshit. Maybe I just told like a fascinator,
Speaker 5: you know, maybe I just made up my own system
Speaker 5: based on what I assumed was going on. But I
Speaker 5: think it's a valuable I think Leary's work was valuable,
Speaker 5: would be a valuable to valuable to occultists that but
Speaker 5: it hasn't been presented that way yet.
Speaker 6: So well, I think you're completely right, and I think
Speaker 6: that is brilliant for the many reasons, and that's something
Speaker 6: I'm continually trying to push as well, is without the
Speaker 6: understanding of how the human nervous system works in the
Speaker 6: world were stuck in superstition in a magical kind of paradigm.
Speaker 6: And the magical paradigm is really important that it evolves
Speaker 6: with our understanding of not only the models of consciousness
Speaker 6: that we use like Ra's reality tunnels, but it's how
Speaker 6: we also have a mirror image of what our technology
Speaker 6: that we're using at the same time. And so if
Speaker 6: we have these black mirror phones and we're looking into
Speaker 6: our computer systems and how you know, AI and evolution
Speaker 6: is moving, we also then need to upgrade our understanding
Speaker 6: of how our own nervous system and its circuits are
Speaker 6: moving through reality. And so I think then that with
Speaker 6: exactly I think that it's almost ridiculous for somebody to
Speaker 6: ever say that Timothiary wasn't moving through the Western esoteric
Speaker 6: tradition with exactly what he's talking about, because he's talking
Speaker 6: about even with his even though he did state that
Speaker 6: he said it wrong to an interurn in a dropout,
Speaker 6: you know, he would say probably drop in, I think
Speaker 6: is what I read instead. But the idea of making
Speaker 6: sure that you go deep within your own not the
Speaker 6: Plato's cave, but going within your own cave to be
Speaker 6: able to sit, meditate, pranayama, Ponchali's eight limbs of Yoga,
Speaker 6: which then maps onto the eight circus of consciousness and
Speaker 6: so right and hit those higher circuits so we can
Speaker 6: experience the starc transmission or whatever serious b is trying
Speaker 6: to talk to us, while also understanding that there are
Speaker 6: different models to witness these things. So it's not just
Speaker 6: us experiencing, you know, like Kroll's Iwas or our holy
Speaker 6: Guardian Angel or whatever these gods are, but it's also
Speaker 6: we're having different explanations of how our left brain is
Speaker 6: talking to our right brain and how then I'm tapping
Speaker 6: into all my own inner demons, and you know, it's
Speaker 6: it's it's foolish to think that the psychology, that psychology
Speaker 6: and magic, mind and magic are separated, because that falls
Speaker 6: into what I think is the same old trap of
Speaker 6: Cartesianism and the Enlightenment period where they're trying to separate
Speaker 6: the eye from the rest of the world, which then
Speaker 6: which brings us back into the phenomenological experience of how
Speaker 6: important it is that I am a being in the
Speaker 6: world trying to understand my own beingness, which leads to
Speaker 6: the broader horizons. And so I think that you haven't
Speaker 6: made anything up. I think you're actually hitting on exactly
Speaker 6: what he was trying to hit on, because he was
Speaker 6: the magus of that time.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, and it's you know, Wilson in The Cosmic Trigger.
Speaker 5: He one of my favorite things he's written, or anybody's written,
Speaker 5: is the kind of comparing contrast between the star Seed
Speaker 5: signals and the Book of the Law. And there's an
Speaker 5: important understanding there because we all, I don't know I've
Speaker 5: had visionary experiences. I suspect some of you may have.
Speaker 5: And it's like, it's so important to be aware that
Speaker 5: it's everything's being filtered through your nervous system. Yes, and
Speaker 5: you know, so when you read this this Wilson, when
Speaker 5: you read The Cosmic Trigger, you know he lays out how,
Speaker 5: you know, the Book of the Law and the star
Speaker 5: Seed Transmission, Leary's visionary transition seemed to be coming from
Speaker 5: the same place, but are filtered through each individual person.
Speaker 5: And you know, Leary was embarrassed by his his visionary
Speaker 5: experiences or his channeling the star Seed transmission Terra two.
Speaker 5: He was embarrassed by that stuff later in life, and
Speaker 5: I think it was because, you know, in prison when
Speaker 5: he created those books, he kind of lost sight of
Speaker 5: the fact that he is the artist that makes a
Speaker 5: grass green. You know. Yeah, nice, But I don't know,
Speaker 5: it's nothing to be embarrassed about. I mean, when you
Speaker 5: go into those states, you have to give yourself over
Speaker 5: to them for them to be effective, and then you
Speaker 5: come back from it and you go, mmm, man, this
Speaker 5: is a little weird.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 6: Yeah, no, I agree, it's I think then also if
Speaker 6: these things one of my last live streams I basically
Speaker 6: tried to help break down exactly if we understood Alfred
Speaker 6: Corzinspi's work, which was huge in Robert Anton Wilson's life
Speaker 6: and his general semantics and understanding different levels of abstraction
Speaker 6: in the highhierarchies of how the nervous system works, then
Speaker 6: I think we would get a lot less guru syndrome
Speaker 6: and cult of personalities and these different religions that have
Speaker 6: taken place, let alone the far reachings of what happened
Speaker 6: to Thelema and Croleianity. And I think that, you know,
Speaker 6: and then it stems downstream into all the New Age
Speaker 6: bullshit and the witches and all this little fairy, hairy,
Speaker 6: nonsensical pop astrology bullshit that I can't stand. And so
Speaker 6: it's a fascinating thing, is that if we could all
Speaker 6: understand that our nervous system is filtering these things based
Speaker 6: upon that either the alchemized variation of our own our
Speaker 6: own ego, you know, and how our paradigms are set up,
Speaker 6: and our either love or hate for Christianity or whatever
Speaker 6: the religions of our past, because Croley himself never truly
Speaker 6: could bust himself free from Christianity due to all the
Speaker 6: symbols that he was using.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I don't think any of us really do,
Speaker 5: like I think, I think, you know, it's good now
Speaker 5: that over the last thirty fifty years, I don't know
Speaker 5: how long, like we have sort of learned to intellectually
Speaker 5: understand what you're saying, but it's not so easily accomplished
Speaker 5: or internalized. And that's what and you know, and that's
Speaker 5: the purpose of magic, and that's you know what Leary
Speaker 5: was saying. It's like, you can understand this stuff intellectually,
Speaker 5: but unless you've done the work, you're you know, and
Speaker 5: you you know, you you still have like a strong
Speaker 5: circuit to imprint. That's filtering everything, and even if you've
Speaker 5: done the work, you're probably not going to break free
Speaker 5: from that, you know. I find that Anto Olli used
Speaker 5: to talk about this, and I definitely agree that, like
Speaker 5: Wilson and Leary both seem to have kind of like
Speaker 5: a strong anti terrestrial circuit bias. Part of them really
Speaker 5: wanted to be free from that. Yeah, yeah, I just
Speaker 5: want to I think, just enjoy it. Well, you have it,
Speaker 5: well you're here.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 5: Part of my journey in all of this was the
Speaker 5: coffee just kicked in. So look out circuit three coming on.
Speaker 5: It's like, yeah, yeah, part, you know, part of my
Speaker 5: journey and all this was I somebody gave me neuropolitique
Speaker 5: with that laid out the circuits among other things. When
Speaker 5: I was like eighth grades, like fourteen, I was like
Speaker 5: my mind was blown. I'm like, this is how the
Speaker 5: world worked, Like this is how I've always seen how
Speaker 5: the world works. And but I was always interested in
Speaker 5: the first four circuits because those were that's what they
Speaker 5: that's relatable, Like I could diagnose my parents and my
Speaker 5: teacher and my girlfriend or whatever like using this stuff.
Speaker 5: The other four was so abstract. I didn't even have
Speaker 5: like whatever, and then it was just like gobblygook to
Speaker 5: read about it. And then once I started having some
Speaker 5: like serious mystical and magical experiences, I was like, I
Speaker 5: get it. Consciousness starts locally and then goes everywhere, and
Speaker 5: and I, you know, and I went from intellectual understanding
Speaker 5: to inspiration or intuitive or whatever. But I don't I
Speaker 5: just don't think that, like, you know, I don't think
Speaker 5: people are aware enough. People just aren't aware. And it's
Speaker 5: just how human beings are made of, how much how
Speaker 5: they're being influenced by their lower circuits or their terrestrial
Speaker 5: circuits all the time.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, and what they what was the saying that
Speaker 6: always comes to mind right now is who is the
Speaker 6: most trusted of all the stages and mystics. It's the robot,
Speaker 6: right the robot. Who you can trust the robot because
Speaker 6: the robot is just running and making sure everything works.
Speaker 6: And so that's why it's important to take control of
Speaker 6: your own first four circuits. Heal those things through some
Speaker 6: kind of practice, and then you can take off and
Speaker 6: blast off from there. Otherwise you're diluting ourselves all the
Speaker 6: way to Cather, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5: Some of the most interesting stuff about the circuits is
Speaker 5: the fact that the the the connections are the anchors,
Speaker 5: where circuit five is anchored by circuit one, circuit six
Speaker 5: is anchored by circuit two. You know, if you're not
Speaker 5: if you if your circuit I mean, it's just you know,
Speaker 5: a silly example, but it's like if you're like one
Speaker 5: of those people that every time you get high you
Speaker 5: start getting paranoid and crazy. Maybe it's because circuit five,
Speaker 5: you know, you're exploring circuit five, but circuit one is like,
Speaker 5: you know, you hate your job and you're you're you're
Speaker 5: about to be kicked out of your house. It's like,
Speaker 5: of course you're going to be paranoid, you know, It's like,
Speaker 5: of course you're going to be anxious. So it's like
Speaker 5: the lower circuits in that schema, which is very antio ali,
Speaker 5: is like they're not to be escaped from there, not
Speaker 5: to be fled from there, to be nourished, because those
Speaker 5: are specifically the things that give you the resiliency to
Speaker 5: explore the higher circuits.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah, yeah, I like that. So do
Speaker 6: you think then that's where he went off a little
Speaker 6: off the rails with his smile, right, space migration, intelligence,
Speaker 6: increase life extension, and then into this DARC transmissions because
Speaker 6: he kept wanting to get us off planet. Very Elon
Speaker 6: Musk esque.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think there is some of that. I think, like,
Speaker 5: you know, he was in prison. What's the ultimate escape,
Speaker 5: it's like escaping the planet, you know. But also it's
Speaker 5: like there is a little conflation there because it's like
Speaker 5: he used the frame, the framework and came to the conclusion, which,
Speaker 5: you know, good for him. He's a smart guy. He
Speaker 5: looked at the facts and decided that space bration was
Speaker 5: the logical, logical endpoint of that. I look at the
Speaker 5: last you know, forty years of what we've been doing
Speaker 5: as a species and what we've learned about space faring,
Speaker 5: and it's like, maybe that's not the endpoint. I'm not
Speaker 5: very bullish on going to the Moon or going to Mars.
Speaker 5: I'm like, I'm more bullish on let's fix this planet.
Speaker 5: You know. It's like and but that's my opinion, my
Speaker 5: honest opinion, based on my analysis of the situation. But
Speaker 5: it doesn't make the framework, the eighth circuit model doesn't
Speaker 5: change that. It's just we just I'm a human being.
Speaker 5: I have a different opinion, you know.
Speaker 6: Well, it's fascinating to add in something I think about
Speaker 6: I've been thinking about a lot, is how I think
Speaker 6: maybe this total recall Philip K. Dick thing about getting
Speaker 6: off planet is an illusion to have us forget that.
Speaker 6: The way you move outside of the planet is going
Speaker 6: into within and changing your nervous system. So then you
Speaker 6: are actually experiencing this universe from a different perception. Thus
Speaker 6: you can go wherever you want. If consciousness is non local,
Speaker 6: you know, we are only experienced at locally, so you
Speaker 6: need a body somewhere to go traverse the cosmos. But
Speaker 6: this whole big dick in metal sky like let's move
Speaker 6: off all that type of thing is really hard something.
Speaker 4: The thing with that, yeah, when you get into the
Speaker 4: whole space aspect of it, it's the idea that we're
Speaker 4: kind of a race that's limping along through these cyclical destructions.
Speaker 4: They keep bringing us down to zero and we keep
Speaker 4: rising up. So in essence, we're at threat as a
Speaker 4: species until we can get off of the thing that
Speaker 4: could destroy us.
Speaker 5: So well, Larry had his feelings about extraterrestrials. Obviously, he
Speaker 5: believed in higher intelligence, but he saw He thought it
Speaker 5: was the silliest, most reductive thing to say that higher
Speaker 5: intelligence would build a craft out of metal and hurl
Speaker 5: itself through space. You know, it's like it's we you know,
Speaker 5: he said that obviously, like when Carl Sagan and whatever
Speaker 5: that I can't remember off the top of my head,
Speaker 5: you know, the search for extraterrestrial life SETI beaming radio waves?
Speaker 5: What did Leary call it? Like electro magnetic chauvinism. He's like,
Speaker 5: we should be using our mind and our consciousness and
Speaker 5: what we know can travel, you know, beyond the speed
Speaker 5: of light. Yeah, and and communicate that way. And he
Speaker 5: thought that that's what he was doing. And he thought
Speaker 5: that's what John D did. I a buddy of mine
Speaker 5: told me. He was like, reread Communion by Lee Streiber
Speaker 5: and then you know read John D like true and
Speaker 5: faithful relation. He's like, they're having the same experience experiences.
Speaker 4: It was well and as far as that vehicle to
Speaker 4: get off or out of this dimension reality, that goes
Speaker 4: all the way back to Enoch, you know, self manifesting
Speaker 4: the the you know, the the that he's traversing you know,
Speaker 4: time and space through.
Speaker 6: The light body, the dimald body, the rainbow body, the.
Speaker 4: Rainbow body of the Buddhist.
Speaker 6: Which is exactly what we're doing in our occult, ceremonial,
Speaker 6: magical practice, or whatever it is that we're doing. We're
Speaker 6: trying to build out our own spheres of influence so
Speaker 6: we can then just do exactly that. I wanted to
Speaker 6: bring up something that I wanted to bring up in
Speaker 6: a podcast we all did with somebody not not too
Speaker 6: long ago. But it's fascinating when the guy Stephen Greer
Speaker 6: gets brought up, and so there's something really interesting with
Speaker 6: that guy. And I think that if he really was
Speaker 6: honest with himself and everyone else and wasn't a syop,
Speaker 6: I think that he would be talking to the occultists
Speaker 6: and the magicians and using that framework to also talk
Speaker 6: to people. But instead he keeps on trying to have
Speaker 6: us all. It's the fascinating thing is if most people
Speaker 6: understood Gores, they'd be like, why do I want to
Speaker 6: connect to some fucking eggre that he's trying to tell
Speaker 6: us is perfect in and of itself.
Speaker 1: It's fascinatings to do it instead. Yeah, you know, so.
Speaker 3: I had a question, what do you uh, oh man, Sorry,
Speaker 3: I lost the question I did have it before it
Speaker 3: was on the eighth circuit.
Speaker 1: How does your book?
Speaker 3: Did your book you and your book connect that model
Speaker 3: to a cult or initiatory thinking at all, the eight
Speaker 3: circuit model.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I mean all of the I think all
Speaker 5: of the states that we experience in mystical or magical
Speaker 5: practice can be mapped onto the eighth circuit model. I
Speaker 5: mean that was you know, learly very I mean that
Speaker 5: was his research project, like experiencing these states that we
Speaker 5: all experience and we're like, whoa, what is that? That's wild?
Speaker 5: You know, what's that voice? What's that vision? And mapping
Speaker 5: it onto you know, and creating a map of that.
Speaker 5: And you can take it further. You can you can
Speaker 5: connect the four the four worlds of you know, in
Speaker 5: the Cobbo law like map onto Like now now you're
Speaker 5: going backwards up to the rays of emanation, so you're
Speaker 5: starting with like the fourth but it's like the fourth
Speaker 5: world maps onto circuit one two very well, third worlds three, four, five, six, seven, eight,
Speaker 5: So there's a lot and then and that's great because
Speaker 5: once you've done that, it's like all right, so now
Speaker 5: we can map the golden down initial toy system onto
Speaker 5: the to the eighth circuit, you know, which is I
Speaker 5: think that's that's an area I would like to explore
Speaker 5: a lot more.
Speaker 6: Yeah, even if it doesn't match perfectly, I think it's
Speaker 6: definitely on how they talk about the different neuro the
Speaker 6: top four circuits on when you're experiencing those higher worlds,
Speaker 6: I think is.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and you know, nothing ever maps perfectly exactly, but
Speaker 5: the useful I don't know if this is like my
Speaker 5: third interview today, but so I don't know if I
Speaker 5: said this before or what. But you know, correspondences rather
Speaker 5: than being seen as a map of reality, which, as
Speaker 5: we know since we've all read cosmic triggers trigger is
Speaker 5: bad idea, but see it as a framework that you're
Speaker 5: building within yourself in order to practice effective magic. So
Speaker 5: it's like like I think Crowley and Wilson and people
Speaker 5: have been read incorrectly when people say that Crowley supported
Speaker 5: the magical model or the mental model, or said that
Speaker 5: spirits or whatever only existed in the mind. The way
Speaker 5: I perceive it is the mind is what allows us
Speaker 5: to perceive these entities and to interact with the universe
Speaker 5: in a way it creates magic. So yes, there is
Speaker 5: a magic model or mental model, but it's it's reversed
Speaker 5: and like you know, so correspondences are but one tool,
Speaker 5: and you can, you know, you can tweak it. I mean.
Speaker 5: The mystery, the thing that I don't that I think
Speaker 5: is probably unknowable and that endlessly fascinates me, is how
Speaker 5: some models do seem to work better than others.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's because it's not a postmodern world like that
Speaker 6: where it's like anything.
Speaker 5: Goes exactly, So they're pointing to some unknowable, ineffable reality.
Speaker 5: At the end of the day, we're not going to
Speaker 5: know one hundred percent of what happens beyond our sense.
Speaker 5: So it's like, that's not saying that it's all in
Speaker 5: our mind. That's not saying that anything. You know, that's
Speaker 5: not just like Cartesan dualism, but it's it's an acknowledgement
Speaker 5: of the fact that, you know what, humans are actually
Speaker 5: not perfect, believe it or not.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's great.
Speaker 6: And to go to lead that back into the Kabbala
Speaker 6: and when we leave the Malcouth through the thirty second
Speaker 6: path of the Imagination to the Moon, which is a
Speaker 6: blast off point of magic of the High Priestess to
Speaker 6: let us move to the rest of the tree. I mean,
Speaker 6: that's exactly what's that saying. We're leaving the material realm
Speaker 6: using the mind and as long as you've honed your
Speaker 6: imagination or the dream realm, as Sarah James, I know,
Speaker 6: was just on this podcast like a few hours ago.
Speaker 6: I think that's a very like that framework is to
Speaker 6: understand that then what we imagine the dreaming to be
Speaker 6: isn't what the Disney realm wants to talk to us
Speaker 6: or what we've been imprinted to believe. But it goes
Speaker 6: back to the yoga part or the the yoga part
Speaker 6: of magic and yoga equating to mystics or equating mysticism
Speaker 6: in like Crowley's book four Right is that idea is
Speaker 6: that once you have your ethical and moral frameworks, and
Speaker 6: then you train the body and your hatha yoga with
Speaker 6: your asinas, and then your breath which is also helping
Speaker 6: calm the body, and then you start training the mind
Speaker 6: so you can hone your will. That is then when
Speaker 6: you can then move through the rest of the realms
Speaker 6: of existence. But until then we are but as Timothy
Speaker 6: Leary states, as you all well know, we are caterpillars
Speaker 6: just roaming around not understanding that we are the same
Speaker 6: thing as the butterflies, but we just speak different language.
Speaker 1: Oh.
Speaker 5: The best, the best illustration in Prometheus Rising is the
Speaker 5: caterpillar and then the butterfly. Then the caterpillar says, you'll
Speaker 5: never get me up in one of those things, right, Yeah, and.
Speaker 6: Then the caterpillar's got to die, so the butterfly can
Speaker 6: be born. And it's just you know, and I think
Speaker 6: that's something that's really hard, and that goes back to
Speaker 6: the idea of like the call to adventure, the sacrifice,
Speaker 6: and to realize that this dualism, this postmodern functionalist worldview
Speaker 6: that we're all like inundated with and been rewritten by.
Speaker 6: So it's like our programs have been rewritten by the
Speaker 6: powers that be, So we don't know how to blast
Speaker 6: away from the planet and it doesn't have to be physical.
Speaker 3: Yeah, did any of you have any other questions before.
Speaker 1: I go on?
Speaker 5: What's going on in the chat? Do they hate me?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 5: Man, I was on Coast to coast last week or
Speaker 5: two weeks ago, and yeah, and there it's great because
Speaker 5: you know, like George Nori doesn't read anything, you know,
Speaker 5: so he's like he's like looking at the book and
Speaker 5: asking me about the cover, and I'm like, you know,
Speaker 5: I didn't make the cover, like I wrote the word inside,
Speaker 5: and then like you know, and then my this was
Speaker 5: the best. It was like they open up the phone
Speaker 5: lines and it's like everybody just calls up to like
Speaker 5: give their weird stories about crop circles or whatever that
Speaker 5: have nothing to do with anything. And then George is like,
Speaker 5: what would Timothy Leary say about crop circles?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 6: I didn't even know Coast Coast was still on, so.
Speaker 3: Right, Uh, one question I did want to ask you
Speaker 3: if I found this interesting, especially with this one group
Speaker 3: that's in there, because somebody that used to be on
Speaker 3: the show almost even wanted to cover the weather on
Speaker 3: the ground. Your book also places Larry in relation to
Speaker 3: figures like rom Dos if I'm saying that right, Robert
Speaker 3: Anton Wilson, and even groups like the Weather Underground and
Speaker 3: the Black Panthers. How did those worlds intersect with his
Speaker 3: psychic and occult explorations.
Speaker 1: Well, the uh.
Speaker 5: Leary was in prison and wrongfully imprisoned in my you know,
Speaker 5: he was forty. He was like facing thirty five years
Speaker 5: in jail, so essentially a death sentence for two joints
Speaker 5: or one joint and yeah, you know Weather Underground were
Speaker 5: you know, when you when you think about the Weather
Speaker 5: Underground or the Black Panthers, one thing to keep in
Speaker 5: mind is they were very savvy, very smart media like
Speaker 5: the like the reason that they were militants inasmuch as
Speaker 5: they believed in militancy was because they just it was
Speaker 5: made for great pictures and great newsreels, you know, great stories.
Speaker 5: So so Leary's in prison, probably the most famous prisoner
Speaker 5: in America, and the Weather Underground are looking for their
Speaker 5: next you know, publicity coup, and it's like, well, we
Speaker 5: could go in and you know, try to rescue some
Speaker 5: like revolutionary badass and maximum security prison, or we can
Speaker 5: rescue Tim because he's in minimum security prison. Would be
Speaker 5: really easy. So the Brotherhood of Eternal Love, the so
Speaker 5: called hippie mafia at Orange County, paid the Weather Underground
Speaker 5: to just go to the prison and picked him up.
Speaker 5: And he shimmed over the fence and dropped down and
Speaker 5: the Weather Underground grabbed him and him and Leary and
Speaker 5: his wife fled the country under assumed names and went
Speaker 5: to Algeria. So now the Black Panthers have an outpost
Speaker 5: in Algeria, and they have to get permission from Algerian
Speaker 5: government to do anything, you know, to do anything, because
Speaker 5: they're guests of the government. So one of the Black
Speaker 5: Panthers people leaked the story to the Algerian press that
Speaker 5: famous prosecuted black African American professor Timothy Leary has escaped
Speaker 5: and like, so they thought he was a black guy,
Speaker 5: so they like let him in, you know, because it
Speaker 5: was because Africa there were there was very it was
Speaker 5: like a pan African movement. So so yeah, tim got
Speaker 5: there and he wasn't a revolutionary and he wasn't black,
Speaker 5: but that's how But that was a really interesting period,
Speaker 5: interesting period of time because Tim aligned himself with the
Speaker 5: radical left basically to save his ass, and he was
Speaker 5: not very convincing, like he wrote some revolutionary papers at
Speaker 5: the time or revolutionary documents that are just like gobbledy
Speaker 5: gut because he could tell his heart wasn't into it.
Speaker 5: And yeah, and he got out of Algeria as quickly
Speaker 5: as he could, but but not before having his experience
Speaker 5: where he saw John d you know, on an acid trip.
Speaker 4: So now this is also the same time when they
Speaker 4: declared him what the most one of the most, the
Speaker 4: most dangerous man.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Nixon called him the most dangerous man in America, right right,
Speaker 5: And when they when they asked him about it, he said,
Speaker 5: I have America surrounded.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, well, and I think that's interesting in regard to,
Speaker 4: you know, relation to Alistir Crowley being declared as well,
Speaker 4: mostly the wickedest man, the wickedest man.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I found out.
Speaker 1: I was thinking that as soon as you said that.
Speaker 4: So they kind of you have another kind of echo
Speaker 4: in time space there.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 5: You know, Tim wrote a lot about not a lot.
Speaker 5: A couple of times he mentioned because like his whole
Speaker 5: project was freeing us from these scripts, from these roles,
Speaker 5: from doing what other people say we're supposed to do.
Speaker 5: And like when he was like towards the end of
Speaker 5: his life, a gentleman, a journalist named Peter Owen Whitmer
Speaker 5: was researching Leary's life and he sent Leary a copy
Speaker 5: of a letter that Learry had written to a friend
Speaker 5: of his, like in high school. And in the letter,
Speaker 5: Larry's talking about a short story that he was writing
Speaker 5: about a man who or scientists who invented a drug
Speaker 5: that would bring world peace. And then the government came
Speaker 5: down on him and had him assassinated. So like he
Speaker 5: wrote this story when he was sixteen and completely forgot
Speaker 5: about it, and now he's like sixty five, and he
Speaker 5: realized that that was him. You know, Learry towards the
Speaker 5: end of his life realized that, you know, his whole
Speaker 5: project was liberating us. But he was definitely in the
Speaker 5: thrall of some forces he couldn't understand that dictated his life,
Speaker 5: and probably same forces that you know, he seems to
Speaker 5: be like part of a recurring cast of characters. I
Speaker 5: think I think Leary was right in the sense that
Speaker 5: like Crowley and Leary were kind of coughed up to
Speaker 5: do sort of the same rule, fulfill the same role.
Speaker 5: Yeah by you know, in the or genetics or whatever.
Speaker 4: Right, and the premonition as far as him writing that
Speaker 4: childhood story and kind of living that kind of gets
Speaker 4: into kind of some Philip K. Dick kind of oh yeah,
Speaker 4: with him estimating his end in the exact way it happened.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Yeah, And you know it's you know, and some
Speaker 5: people are just that's their role. Like that's not me,
Speaker 5: Like I'm the most not Leary, like very chill dude,
Speaker 5: you know, and it's like it's like, my life hasn't
Speaker 5: turned out that way. There's been no crazy coincidences or anything.
Speaker 5: But you know, some people just have. You know, some
Speaker 5: people get to the end of their lives and it's
Speaker 5: like they've lived the lives of ten men. And I
Speaker 5: think Leary Crowley definitely fit into that.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 1: I had another one.
Speaker 3: How much of the nineteen sixties counterculture do you think
Speaker 3: was secretly operating with the cult assumptions even when it
Speaker 3: was used as scientific, when it was used as like
Speaker 3: a scientific or therapeutic language?
Speaker 2: What do you mean? Uh?
Speaker 3: Like, how much of the nineteen sixties counterculture do you
Speaker 3: think was secretly operating with occult assumptions even when it
Speaker 3: used scientific or therapeutic language, Like if it was kind
Speaker 3: of like maybe using other terms, but it was actually
Speaker 3: much more.
Speaker 4: Maybe the idea of using a cult in a scientific manner.
Speaker 5: Well, you know, I think Leary was using the scientific,
Speaker 5: like the science of his time to try to explain something,
Speaker 5: to try to explain the same things that mystics, yes
Speaker 5: two hundred years ago were trying to explain. You know,
Speaker 5: like the language changes over time, but the end of
Speaker 5: the day, you know, just like even the idea of
Speaker 5: him using the term circuits, that's you know, that just
Speaker 5: comes from you know, telegraphs or TV sets or radios
Speaker 5: or something. You know, he was using like the the
Speaker 5: language of his time. But you know, Wilson later in
Speaker 5: his life preferred dimensions, you know. I you know, we
Speaker 5: would probably come up with something else, algorithms. I'm sure
Speaker 5: if Leary was alive today, it'd be the eight Algorithms
Speaker 5: of Consciousness.
Speaker 4: And he was very techno oriented in his prophecy, in
Speaker 4: speaking in regard to you know, man machine and what
Speaker 4: that entails.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, in this period, the seventies period where
Speaker 5: he's in prison, he's writing. What I love about it
Speaker 5: is he really purposefully got very clear and precise in
Speaker 5: his language. It was more like reading a computer manual
Speaker 5: like info Psychology is literally subtitled like, you know, a
Speaker 5: manual for understanding the human nervous system or something. I
Speaker 5: think he probably got that from John Lilly. I think
Speaker 5: they were kind of in the same realm, you know,
Speaker 5: which predates chaos magic in this. You know, when you
Speaker 5: read like control okouse or something, and it's like I
Speaker 5: reread this, you know, Phil Hines thing on servitors, and
Speaker 5: it was like and it was so obvious that he
Speaker 5: was influenced by like the basic programming language, you know,
Speaker 5: and you know, and it's uh, it's in our NLP.
Speaker 5: You know. Is another example of something where they like
Speaker 5: trying to explain these ineffable things but using like precise
Speaker 5: computer language. That's very Those are very much nineteen seventies,
Speaker 5: nineteen eighties.
Speaker 6: Yeah, cybernetics, sci fi realm. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And I think when you go back even into the
Speaker 4: Frankfurt school in the way dialectics developed with Hegel kind
Speaker 4: of dealing with these similar type subjects.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm joking. I'm joking, not joking. I just hate Hagel.
Speaker 2: I just can't.
Speaker 4: It's the driest but interesting.
Speaker 6: And the problem is it's not even Hagel himself. It's
Speaker 6: the Hagel flunkys and e girls out there.
Speaker 5: You know, the Gaian egles everywhere.
Speaker 3: Do you think did Leary imagine human evolution as biological, technological, spiritual?
Speaker 1: Old the above? Do you think o the above?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: H Is there any any areas that you personally remain
Speaker 3: skeptical there?
Speaker 5: Well, you know, I I'm just I appreciate his uh,
Speaker 5: his methodology for looking at the world. But I don't
Speaker 5: think that I necessarily buy into all of it. Like
Speaker 5: I'm trying to think, for instance, his uh, his kind
Speaker 5: of like sour look at terrestrial consciousness. I find to
Speaker 5: be obviously he's working through some issues. You know. It's
Speaker 5: like I'd rather you know, I think it's much helpier
Speaker 5: to enjoy being human and to try to be the
Speaker 5: best human you can be then to try to like
Speaker 5: avoid it by filling yourself with acid and wine.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's so true. I mean, because he didn't die
Speaker 6: a happy life, you know, And so it's one of
Speaker 6: those things that goes back to me trying to like,
Speaker 6: I think every great magician needs to be a great
Speaker 6: warrior at the same time. So it's like you need
Speaker 6: to build up your body, and he you know, and
Speaker 6: like ask too much.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 6: I found something with myself because I I took a
Speaker 6: lot of acid in my younger twenties, which helped break
Speaker 6: me free from whatever it was I was going to become.
Speaker 6: And it's fascinating on how I'm almost forty now and
Speaker 6: for the last twenty years I've had to rebuild up
Speaker 6: my boundaries, and so the boundary disillusionment, which then leads
Speaker 6: you into the hiddenic state, which then it's like all
Speaker 6: of and light bro And I'm not saying that's how
Speaker 6: I was, because I was lucky enough to have I
Speaker 6: studied philosophy and Aristotote, Plato and all these things. But
Speaker 6: the idea is is it's taken a long time to
Speaker 6: understand the even though I've trained martial arts for that
Speaker 6: whole time, how to how long it takes to rebuild
Speaker 6: your circuits after you've become so vulnerable with your nervous system,
Speaker 6: you know. And I think that's what happens when that's
Speaker 6: why so many people who are in the psychedelic New
Speaker 6: Age hippie community.
Speaker 2: Are so liberal.
Speaker 6: Yeah, because of that direct thing is because of their
Speaker 6: boundaries are dissolved almost completely, if that may you know
Speaker 6: what I'm saying, No, it definitely does.
Speaker 5: I feel that. I think Leary and Wilson, or I
Speaker 5: know I know that what this wasn't the case later
Speaker 5: in Wilson's slafe, but you know, while he was on
Speaker 5: while he was on this event, sure, with Timothy Leary,
Speaker 5: I think they were both a lot more optimistic about
Speaker 5: how effective various practices were in reimprinting or or reprogramming
Speaker 5: the circuits. Like I'm not convinced that that that that
Speaker 5: you really change much, if anything on that level. I mean,
Speaker 5: you a little bit, and you can benefit greatly from it,
Speaker 5: But like.
Speaker 6: Which which level? I'm sorry?
Speaker 5: I think like the like the the circuit imprinting level,
Speaker 5: as opposed to altering your conditioning. Like you can massage
Speaker 5: the circuits, you can become more pliable, you can become
Speaker 5: more spontaneous or more flexible, But I don't think you're
Speaker 5: becoming a completely different person.
Speaker 6: I will push back, and I totally respect your opinion,
Speaker 6: but I'm going to push back on Manchurian and use
Speaker 6: the term Manchurian candidate and mk ultra to a t
Speaker 6: and know that you can completely imprint a whole nother
Speaker 6: personality inside somebody's brain. And Leary's work states that on
Speaker 6: how that's something that they were doing at that time
Speaker 6: frame and.
Speaker 4: Literally talks about that as well. But oftentimes it would
Speaker 4: crack the individual.
Speaker 6: It does, which is why they why so many of
Speaker 6: our brothers and sisters out there lost their psyches. And
Speaker 6: like the psych words were in high demand at that
Speaker 6: time frame, especially in the psychedelic community, which I was
Speaker 6: in for a very long time. Obviously not in that timeframe,
Speaker 6: but it's I watched so many good people lose themselves
Speaker 6: and never return because of they lost so touch of
Speaker 6: of with reality.
Speaker 5: Yeah. But is that like a fundamental altering of the
Speaker 5: leary circuits or is that just the damage of Yeah,
Speaker 5: I mean, I mean, there's a million ways to destroy
Speaker 5: somebody without without even talking about circuits, you know.
Speaker 4: Well, but I think.
Speaker 5: Send me some links I want to read more about that.
Speaker 6: I would love to, nice, I will. I'm gonna write
Speaker 6: it down, so I do.
Speaker 4: But I think with the circuits, you know, like with
Speaker 4: anything within the chakras or however you want to you know,
Speaker 4: look at all these various systems, it gives you a
Speaker 4: fundamental way to understand that you have these systems within you.
Speaker 4: And so once you understand that, then you can begin to,
Speaker 4: like you said, work on you know, manipulating and programming
Speaker 4: and reprogramming per se. So so just at a base,
Speaker 4: you know, it's to have the system and the understanding
Speaker 4: of the system is the doorway to be able to
Speaker 4: help move yourself into a direction of goodness.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: One O the questions what part of his worldview. Do
Speaker 3: you think he do you think still has real value today.
Speaker 5: I think all of it, like the you know, the
Speaker 5: circuit thing, I think could be certainly used by you know,
Speaker 5: spiritual seekers of all stripes. And I think just the
Speaker 5: great gift of writing this book is like it took
Speaker 5: me a year and a half to write. I wrote it. See,
Speaker 5: I turned it in last December, so a year and
Speaker 5: a half prior to that, I was deeply immersed in
Speaker 5: Leary's world, and it was such a great gift to
Speaker 5: be back in a world and in a headspace where
Speaker 5: there was optimism and hope and like, like you know,
Speaker 5: it's like cause there's so little of that right now
Speaker 5: that to be like thinking Leary thoughts and reading Leary
Speaker 5: things and kind of like understanding that like the world
Speaker 5: and the story of humanity is a lot bigger than
Speaker 5: just like, yes, whatever jackasses are on the news. That
Speaker 5: was that to me was like the best part of
Speaker 5: the experience. And that's what I hope people get out
Speaker 5: of it, because it's a it's kind of a happy book,
Speaker 5: you know, it's kind of like a fun book.
Speaker 1: What surprised you the most why you were writing this book?
Speaker 5: Like I said, I think it was. I don't know
Speaker 5: if I was surprised, but I was just pleased that
Speaker 5: the idea is held up. You know, when you when
Speaker 5: you undertake a project, you never know if it's going
Speaker 5: to work out. You know, I could have very easily
Speaker 5: started working on it and it would have been like, oh,
Speaker 5: by the way, I discovered that Leary was wrong about everything,
Speaker 5: and this is really dumb, you know, this is a
Speaker 5: dumb way to spend eighteen months. But no, it's like,
Speaker 5: I think Leary's work is as relevant and as important
Speaker 5: as ever, and I think, you know, I hope my
Speaker 5: book is kind of like a little little telegram from
Speaker 5: the past, bringing his ideas and updating them so people
Speaker 5: now can appreciate them.
Speaker 6: Which is why he's the most dangerous man in the world,
Speaker 6: is because of his work if people get into it,
Speaker 6: m h.
Speaker 5: Which is why they made him, why they made a
Speaker 5: clown out of him. You know, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 6: Think for yourself, question authority.
Speaker 2: Listen to tool.
Speaker 4: It'll help question everything exactly.
Speaker 5: Yeah. When I when Art Bell or Art Bell, I
Speaker 5: wish it was Art Bell. When I when I was
Speaker 5: on coast to coast. You know, a lot of the
Speaker 5: calls were like, you know, like weird old conservative people
Speaker 5: that listen to AM radio at three in the morning
Speaker 5: like calling up and yelling about you know he uh
Speaker 5: he killed Art link Letter's daughter and he you know,
Speaker 5: he destroyed you know, killed all these people in the
Speaker 5: sixties by giving them heroin. And I was just like, wow,
Speaker 5: the uh there is a whole world of peace people
Speaker 5: that still just believe the most absurd bullshit about Timothy Leary.
Speaker 5: You know, they're still out there in force. So I
Speaker 5: hope that, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3: Oh I could even say as a kid, from what
Speaker 3: I was told from like the TV and Coronus Timothy
Speaker 3: Leary is to what I know now, it is fucking
Speaker 3: way different.
Speaker 6: Well, look how they made it like don't come into Yeah,
Speaker 6: Men who Stare at Goats is such a like a
Speaker 6: ridiculous movie and so stupid, and yet that's actually all
Speaker 6: happened in its own right.
Speaker 2: It's just wash.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah. So it's just fascinating how you can dumb these
Speaker 6: things down and then make people care about the most
Speaker 6: worthless things.
Speaker 5: And you know, there was one of my favorite things
Speaker 5: to when I'm like watching my numb mind numbing TV,
Speaker 5: which isn't that often. It's like there was a whole
Speaker 5: like like trend in the sixties of like having an
Speaker 5: evil Timothy Leary character on your show. Like like there's yeah,
Speaker 5: there's like an episode of Dragnet where some guys giving
Speaker 5: you know, teenagers LSD and then like whatever the Dragnet
Speaker 5: guys go to his Frank and whatever go to his
Speaker 5: house and he's like, you know, this really bad caricature
Speaker 5: of Timothy Leary like giving speeches and and it's just
Speaker 5: so funny. And yeah, there's so many shows like that.
Speaker 5: There's so many like ridiculous representations of Timothy Leary from
Speaker 5: the sixties. So I mean it's like, you know, if
Speaker 5: you don't believe that the media has agendas and well,
Speaker 5: you know, then maybe you should rethink it. I don't know.
Speaker 4: It kind of gets into what they did with MK
Speaker 4: Ultra and Mainson in regard to, you know, the death
Speaker 4: of the Psychedelics, you know, and yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, Chaos is a mark, Robbie. Have you read Chaos before?
Speaker 6: Any of you guys read Chaos the book that I
Speaker 6: highly Lenny? Have you?
Speaker 5: Yeah? I used to talk to tom Ony now and then yeah,
Speaker 5: he's like he's so bitter he he's just like a
Speaker 5: surly dude, you know. And uh, I actually tricked him
Speaker 5: into talking to me because I was talking to I'm
Speaker 5: gonna forget it with.
Speaker 1: Most of my guests.
Speaker 5: Who was it. There was some interview that Tom O'Neal
Speaker 5: wanted to get for his book that he couldn't get
Speaker 5: and I got it and I sent it to I
Speaker 5: sent him the interview. He was like so mad, but
Speaker 5: like I was able to like turn that into a
Speaker 5: phone call. And he's a great guy and he's so
Speaker 5: smart and and it was. It was funny though, because
Speaker 5: it's like he couldn't help it, like he wanted to
Speaker 5: talk to me. He did not want to talk to me,
Speaker 5: but he wanted to like like criticize me to my
Speaker 5: face more.
Speaker 2: That's good.
Speaker 3: Yeah, anyviews, have any more questions before I have one
Speaker 3: more and then I guess we'll wrap it up.
Speaker 5: Make it a good one.
Speaker 3: Well, it's kind of like something I ask everybody now,
Speaker 3: who with the books and stuff they come on with
Speaker 3: a book, you know, at the end of the day,
Speaker 3: when people have done reading this book, what is the
Speaker 3: one I guess most important thing to you?
Speaker 1: You hope they take from it.
Speaker 5: I just hope, like, really, it's a fantastic story. I'm
Speaker 5: not saying that I wrote a fantastic book, which of
Speaker 5: course I did, but I'm saying, like Leary's story is
Speaker 5: so fascinating and fantastic that I think most people will
Speaker 5: get something out of it just for that level. But
Speaker 5: I really hope that like the hardcore occultists and you know,
Speaker 5: the practitioners see how they can use a circuit model
Speaker 5: and Leary's idiosyncratic take on the tarot to expand their practice. Like,
Speaker 5: I really hope that in a year, I'm having conversations
Speaker 5: with people who have like brought this into their practice
Speaker 5: and have learned things about it and can tell me
Speaker 5: what they think. So they've learned, I.
Speaker 1: Think you will be.
Speaker 3: It seems to be something that's catching on. You know,
Speaker 3: people are looking at it more. I think, yeah, And
Speaker 3: I don't think it's as taboo as it was even
Speaker 3: when I first got into podcasting.
Speaker 6: Well, now you have dipshits like that Brian Johnson just
Speaker 6: doing d MT and mushrooms online during live streams, and
Speaker 6: it's fucking just kills my soul, especially because so many
Speaker 6: people A He's so sure of himself on everything that
Speaker 6: he does, and when he speaks, he gives him away
Speaker 6: on how you can tell he hasn't taken as deep
Speaker 6: of dives as you as he thinks he has, especially
Speaker 6: because of for myself, and I think I heard that
Speaker 6: you've also delved deeply down that rabbit hole. It's like
Speaker 6: it's very telling the kind of language people use when
Speaker 6: you can tell they haven't, like with DMT blasted off
Speaker 6: or with you know, LSD completely lost their mind. Like
Speaker 6: I find it that. I mean, maybe it's how I've
Speaker 6: done it, but like I've had the most beautiful experiences,
Speaker 6: but my truly transformed experiences are the ones where I've
Speaker 6: almost never come back, and it's I've I've completely almost
Speaker 6: like lost all things.
Speaker 2: And I think that's just I just don't know.
Speaker 6: It's hard for me to trust somebody who's completely a
Speaker 6: out there on the open live streaming their shit first
Speaker 6: off and in second off, like when they come back
Speaker 6: and they give me the same humdrum about the new age,
Speaker 6: light love and the source and it's all this and that,
Speaker 6: and I feel so good and my life's so changed,
Speaker 6: and I'm all like, no, man, I think this is gonna.
Speaker 6: I've studied the occult for twenty years now, and I
Speaker 6: was doing all that stuff at the same time while
Speaker 6: doing philosophy research, and I'm all, like it's taken. I
Speaker 6: still have no fucking idea, and I'm just trying to
Speaker 6: piece things together.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 6: It's like I'm just on this golden thread trying to
Speaker 6: understand my place in the world.
Speaker 2: And this guy's like, I got it now.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah. If you are you familiar with Landmark Forum,
Speaker 5: I am, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've done research. A
Speaker 5: buddy of mine is writing a book about it, and
Speaker 5: he's used me as a guinea pig to like go
Speaker 5: to some of these events. And there's a lot of
Speaker 5: technologies for making you feel like you've changed when you
Speaker 5: actually haven't changed. I was in this Landmark thing and
Speaker 5: it's so obvious because I've you know, I've been in
Speaker 5: cult compounds, I've been in whatever I've been. I've had
Speaker 5: lots of experiences with people who try to twist my brain.
Speaker 5: And it's like, You're in this conference room and you know,
Speaker 5: it's a seminar to change your life, and you have
Speaker 5: all these people that are coming in talking about how
Speaker 5: their life has been changed by this event, and I'm
Speaker 5: like we've literally been here for an hour, Like how
Speaker 5: could your life like you haven't even And I think
Speaker 5: there's so much of that in the psychedelic space where
Speaker 5: it's like, yeah, I'm convinced that I've changed my life.
Speaker 5: It's like, well, you're not gonna know in twenty minutes, bro,
Speaker 5: you're not going to know in a day.
Speaker 6: No, any fiction processes takes so long. That's the most
Speaker 6: important part.
Speaker 5: And I think this goes back to what I was
Speaker 5: saying earlier. I think people don't change as much as
Speaker 5: they think they.
Speaker 4: Have right, no right, And I think you have to
Speaker 4: live your life through that experience of having your mind
Speaker 4: blown on an howly basis, and as you're as perpetually
Speaker 4: that you come to a point where, I don't know,
Speaker 4: some sort of symbiosis kind of takes place.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's important.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think you know, to go back to the
Speaker 5: next question, you know, it's like that's the difference between
Speaker 5: me and Leary is like he saw specific seem to it,
Speaker 5: or the impression you get from his work is he
Speaker 5: sees certain chemicals are certain keys, and you use them
Speaker 5: and it switches something like my mind all my use
Speaker 5: of chemicals and different techniques have added up cumulatively to
Speaker 5: who I am right now. I don't think without that
Speaker 5: experience that I would be the same person. But I
Speaker 5: don't think there is any point where I did something
Speaker 5: and then I was magically different.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 6: I do understand what you're saying when you say that,
Speaker 6: especially because I think if if Kaiva was here in
Speaker 6: this conversation as well right now, she would see it
Speaker 6: from the traditional astrological point of view, and how that
Speaker 6: your chart is written up in a certain way when
Speaker 6: you were born, these stars were all combined to push
Speaker 6: and to give these forces of your nature and how
Speaker 6: you then grow in the world, so you can't in
Speaker 6: some way move outside of how your planets and your
Speaker 6: your you know, your chart is there. So there's something
Speaker 6: to that, and I do agree.
Speaker 5: I mean, yeah, that's the mystery. And that's what fascinates
Speaker 5: me is because it's like none of the explanations of
Speaker 5: what you just said, like that I've heard from other
Speaker 5: people make sense to me. But I'll be damned if
Speaker 5: I've done some readings that works really well. You know.
Speaker 5: It's like so it's like I can't explain it. I
Speaker 5: do horrory, I can't. I can horror. Yeah, I do
Speaker 5: horror readings for questions all the time, and so they're
Speaker 5: so damn accurate all the time, and it's like I
Speaker 5: can't say why, and it would be really dishonest of
Speaker 5: me to say why. But who knows.
Speaker 6: But that goes into the ways is that like we
Speaker 6: can't be masters of all things. That we have to
Speaker 6: stick to our lane. And that's why there are people
Speaker 6: who have studied like like Kaiva, she's I know you
Speaker 6: haven't met her, but she's my girlfriend. She's on the reject,
Speaker 6: she's got her own thing. She has studied traditional astrology
Speaker 6: helenus a trolley for such a long time, and so
Speaker 6: I that that was one of the things that lacked
Speaker 6: in my magical practice because because if I was like,
Speaker 6: there's just too much of this, I don't really understand it.
Speaker 6: And then she, you know, and then her and I
Speaker 6: have these discussions and then she's read all of the
Speaker 6: great like traditional astrologers, and the way she speaks is
Speaker 6: so clearly and that's because that's her focus. Between that
Speaker 6: and Buddhism, those things are her focuses. And so it's
Speaker 6: like for you or for myself, like we have our
Speaker 6: focus and then you know, like I to to try
Speaker 6: to speak astrologically besides with trying to understand when I
Speaker 6: should make sure my membership merch drops or when you know,
Speaker 6: when I you know, when I do one thing or
Speaker 6: another or whatnot, it's it's outside of our league here,
Speaker 6: and I think that's I think that's okay, and I
Speaker 6: like that. And that's how I know, you know, Lenny,
Speaker 6: like we can trust each other is because we can
Speaker 6: say I don't fucking know, but it works, and I'm
Speaker 6: gonna continue letting it work for me.
Speaker 4: We're all in the garden. There's mini paths within the garden.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, I have a lot of
Speaker 5: friends in this space that I don't agree with politically
Speaker 5: at all. But like I and I, I don't. I
Speaker 5: don't even like talking about politics.
Speaker 3: Because it's like it's.
Speaker 5: Like it's the it's the second it's the second level,
Speaker 5: it's second circuit, it's like six more and it's just
Speaker 5: you know, Lowe's common denominator stuff. But it comes up
Speaker 5: and it's like, when I'm talking to somebody who I respect,
Speaker 5: I can take them seriously without take you without accepting
Speaker 5: the premise. You know. Yeah, and I think that's probably
Speaker 5: a useful tool for life.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good. That's clear.
Speaker 1: I like that.
Speaker 2: I like the way I said that. It's so true.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, uh, I think we'll wrap it up here.
Speaker 3: And that was an awesome, awesome show, a really great
Speaker 3: conversation before we before I let you advertise whatever you
Speaker 3: want money random, We'll start with you this time since
Speaker 3: so you're right here to begin with.
Speaker 1: Let everybody know what's up with you where they can
Speaker 1: find all your amazing work.
Speaker 6: Thank you, Thank you for having me on Nick as always,
Speaker 6: Robbie love doing panels with you. He's a brilliant man
Speaker 6: up there. I love your take, Lenny. I didn't get
Speaker 6: to meet you in the beginning, but I was really
Speaker 6: excited to hear what you have to say, as well
Speaker 6: as to get on here and chat with you. I
Speaker 6: love when anybody of a sound mind is trying to
Speaker 6: push or help. I'm trying to help put Timothy Leary's
Speaker 6: workout in there because I think the zeitguys today it
Speaker 6: is more needed than ever, and that's why I also
Speaker 6: I will try to do my part in all my
Speaker 6: things that I do and try to help push those
Speaker 6: things as well. Everybody can go find me as always
Speaker 6: on magas in the media, on YouTube, x TikTok, and Instagram.
Speaker 6: I'm gonna be dropping I think today or tomorrow morning.
Speaker 6: I did a slight breakdown reaction review of tools VI
Speaker 6: Carrious from ten thousand Days, and so we're going to
Speaker 6: go deep on that one. And that's just the beginning
Speaker 6: of a mass of series I will be doing on
Speaker 6: my love and deeply imprinted agenda of a pushing tool
Speaker 6: to all people as well as I got all kinds
Speaker 6: of stuff that's coming out. Yeah, so just make sure
Speaker 6: to like, subscribe and share. Next week, memberships are coming out,
Speaker 6: patreons coming out, and I'm gonna have a bunch of
Speaker 6: merch dropping because megas in the Media just meets reached
Speaker 6: all its milestones on YouTube and we're trying to take
Speaker 6: over the world one person.
Speaker 2: At a time.
Speaker 6: Again, as always, Nick, I love being a reject and
Speaker 6: I love being in reject with you and the clan,
Speaker 6: and so yeah, thank you for today.
Speaker 1: No, thank you for making it my man. I was
Speaker 1: appreciated considering it not even home. You could you could tell.
Speaker 1: You can tell he's at home. He's got a tank
Speaker 1: top on.
Speaker 3: It is definitely not that he's from.
Speaker 6: It's so.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much man, Robbie Mark, sir, what is
Speaker 1: going on?
Speaker 4: Yeah, this was a great one. Always fun to talk
Speaker 4: about Kennic de Leary, Robert Anton Wilson in these subjects.
Speaker 4: It's something that I've been steeped in, you know, since
Speaker 4: i was in my teens and I'm in my fifties now,
Speaker 4: so it's just always a fun talk. And it was
Speaker 4: great to meet you, Lenny. And I'm interested in the
Speaker 4: book as well as far as my stuff. If anybody
Speaker 4: wants to check out my various works, you can go
Speaker 4: to my link tree which is link tree r M
Speaker 4: a ar X and that will pull up my podcast,
Speaker 4: the metamind Cast, as well as my social media. You
Speaker 4: can check out my Etsy, go check out my artwork.
Speaker 4: I have some offerings out there that you can pick
Speaker 4: up some of my artwork. And yeah, as always, Nick,
Speaker 4: I appreciate having me on.
Speaker 1: Thanks man, of course, thank you for making it. I
Speaker 1: was really hoping you work. This was right up your
Speaker 1: own and.
Speaker 3: Letty, please, sir, let everybody know what's up with your
Speaker 3: book or you know anything you want to promote.
Speaker 1: Please.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, guys. My April seventh is the release date,
Speaker 5: and it can be purchased anywhere books and purchased. And yeah,
Speaker 5: my substack it's Lenny Flatley dot substack dot com or
Speaker 5: just you know, search Google the occult Timothy Leary if
Speaker 5: you don't remember my name, And yeah, all my stuff is.
Speaker 5: I occasionally podcast, I occasionally do video, and I do
Speaker 5: a lot of writing and it's all on substack.
Speaker 3: So that was awesome, nice, very much, very good sir,
Speaker 3: And again, thank you very much for coming on. I
Speaker 3: really was looking forward to this and it was better
Speaker 3: than I could have expected. And Robbie and Brandon appreciate it,
Speaker 3: and everybody in the chat that is what's up. Oh
Speaker 3: thank you Captain Alien Beats for the dollar forty nine
Speaker 3: Sapistica right before we wrapped it up.
Speaker 1: I appreciate that.
Speaker 3: Uh yeah, thank you everybody that's in the chat for real.
Speaker 3: I appreciate all the comments and the questions. That's why
Speaker 3: I go live. And until the next one, everybody be well.
Speaker 1: Lita