WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.200 --> 00:00:10.599 You see, something's going to happen. What's going to happen? 2 00:00:15.480 --> 00:00:24.440 What I. 3 00:00:24.399 --> 00:00:28.480 Welcome back to the occult rejects in this episode was 4 00:00:28.519 --> 00:00:33.640 stepping into the strange borderland where psychedelics, occultism, futurism, and 5 00:00:33.719 --> 00:00:38.439 counter culture mythology all collide. Most people know Timothy Leary 6 00:00:38.439 --> 00:00:42.320 as the Harvard psychologist Turns, Psychedelic Icon, the man of 7 00:00:42.399 --> 00:00:46.679 turn On, tune In, drop Out, the smiling prophet of 8 00:00:46.759 --> 00:00:52.119 chemical liberation, rebellion, and consciousness expansion. But behind that public 9 00:00:52.119 --> 00:00:55.679 image there was another Leary, a man fascinated by Taro 10 00:00:56.159 --> 00:01:00.320 magical thinking, Western eso terrorism, and the possibility that human 11 00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:04.840 consciousness was not merely evolving socially or psychologically. 12 00:01:04.400 --> 00:01:09.079 But cosmically. Our guest today is Joseph L. 13 00:01:09.120 --> 00:01:12.640 Flatley, investigative journalists and author of the new book The 14 00:01:12.680 --> 00:01:17.959 Occult Timothy Larry, The Taro Magical States and Post Terrestrial Evolution. 15 00:01:18.640 --> 00:01:21.560 In this work, he explores Leary's lesser known immersion in 16 00:01:21.599 --> 00:01:24.719 the occult tradition, his connection to the Eighth Circuit model 17 00:01:24.760 --> 00:01:28.239 of consciousness, his personal Tarot system, and his visions of 18 00:01:28.319 --> 00:01:32.439 human destiny beyond the planet itself. This is exactly the 19 00:01:32.480 --> 00:01:35.200 kind of territory. We love on this show because it 20 00:01:35.239 --> 00:01:38.640 forces us to ask. Was Timothy Larry just a psychedelic 21 00:01:38.680 --> 00:01:41.439 evangelist or was he part of a much older tradition, 22 00:01:42.159 --> 00:01:46.480 one that saw altered states as initiatory, symbolic, and even magical. 23 00:01:47.200 --> 00:01:51.280 Was he repacking ancient esoteric ideas for the technological age? 24 00:01:51.719 --> 00:01:56.640 And what happens when taro, ritual language, psychology, revolution, and 25 00:01:56.680 --> 00:02:01.719 futurism all begin to blur into one worldview. Now, before 26 00:02:01.719 --> 00:02:04.079 I introduce the rest of the panel and the guest, 27 00:02:04.439 --> 00:02:06.640 I would like to remind people about the website. We 28 00:02:06.680 --> 00:02:11.039 have Occult Research Institute dot org. If you're into reading. 29 00:02:11.080 --> 00:02:14.120 We have tons of information by multiple contributors, and we 30 00:02:14.199 --> 00:02:16.400 got t shirts up on the site if you're interested. 31 00:02:16.919 --> 00:02:19.879 Fun fact, the art is all based on the eyeball. 32 00:02:20.560 --> 00:02:23.560 All right, finally, enough out of me and Robbie. What 33 00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:24.120 is going on? 34 00:02:24.159 --> 00:02:25.919 Sir? How are you? Thank you very much for making 35 00:02:25.960 --> 00:02:26.319 it today. 36 00:02:27.960 --> 00:02:30.520 Hey, Nick, this is gonna be a great one. This 37 00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:32.680 is something that I've actually looked quite a bit into 38 00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:35.680 in the past. For those out there that don't know 39 00:02:35.719 --> 00:02:39.240 who I am, I'm Robbie Marx. I'm an artist, illustrator 40 00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:42.639 and researcher. And you can check out all my various 41 00:02:42.680 --> 00:02:45.080 other works at my link tree which is link tre 42 00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:47.840 r m a r X and that'll pull up all 43 00:02:47.919 --> 00:02:51.960 my social media, my Patreon as well as my metamind cast, 44 00:02:52.639 --> 00:02:55.680 where you can check out some more of all my 45 00:02:55.759 --> 00:02:59.639 various works. And yeah, again, this is gonna be a 46 00:02:59.639 --> 00:03:00.639 good one. I'm excited. 47 00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:02.120 Yeah, I was glad you made it for this one. 48 00:03:02.120 --> 00:03:04.039 I figured he'd really be interested in this. Thank you 49 00:03:04.120 --> 00:03:06.800 very much for making it, Robbie, and we got Joseph 50 00:03:06.840 --> 00:03:08.400 aka Lenny. What is going on, sir? 51 00:03:08.479 --> 00:03:08.919 How are you? 52 00:03:09.159 --> 00:03:11.199 Is there anything you'd like to add that maybe I 53 00:03:11.319 --> 00:03:12.680 left out or something. 54 00:03:13.080 --> 00:03:18.439 Now, I think that's a great intro, like the you know, 55 00:03:19.159 --> 00:03:23.199 I think a lot of the criticism of not only Leary, 56 00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:25.520 but a lot of the thinkers of the sixties and 57 00:03:25.560 --> 00:03:29.840 seventies and the kind of like pre new age occult 58 00:03:29.879 --> 00:03:36.719 explosion of the psychedelic era is that they merely repackaged 59 00:03:38.199 --> 00:03:42.919 material from the East when really, and Leary was very 60 00:03:42.919 --> 00:03:46.919 clear about this, like prior even to his becoming a 61 00:03:46.960 --> 00:03:49.800 well known public figure, when he was a lecturer at Harvard, 62 00:03:50.479 --> 00:03:53.639 they looked to the East and to the magical systems 63 00:03:53.680 --> 00:03:58.759 of the West, precisely because they knew that when they 64 00:03:58.759 --> 00:04:03.639 started looking at psychede Elix, that the academic literature and 65 00:04:03.680 --> 00:04:06.280 the scientific literature at the time just did not do 66 00:04:06.319 --> 00:04:08.719 an adequate job of explaining what was going on. So 67 00:04:08.759 --> 00:04:11.479 they they looked for precursors, you know, in all of 68 00:04:11.560 --> 00:04:14.879 human history. Like they knew that they weren't the first 69 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:17.959 people dealing with this stuff. They couldn't have been, but 70 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:21.160 you know, if you went to Harvard you might think that. 71 00:04:21.839 --> 00:04:24.839 So they purposefully look to the east, look to the west, 72 00:04:24.839 --> 00:04:29.079 looks at the past, and it's you know, it's just 73 00:04:29.199 --> 00:04:32.560 such a fertile topic for conversation. I'm very excited to 74 00:04:32.600 --> 00:04:33.160 get to it. 75 00:04:33.439 --> 00:04:35.160 Yeah, right, No, for sure, for sure. 76 00:04:36.120 --> 00:04:40.839 Uh, the first question I had, I guess, uh, what 77 00:04:41.000 --> 00:04:44.319 first pulled you toward Timothy Larry's a cult side specifically, 78 00:04:44.360 --> 00:04:48.800 instead of more his familiar psychedelic or political Timothy Leary side. 79 00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:52.959 You know, it's always been there, kind of under you know, 80 00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:58.480 It's like tim worked through so many different areas and 81 00:04:58.959 --> 00:05:03.560 disciplines and worked so quickly and never had he was 82 00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:06.879 not a rigorous scientist. He never had time to he 83 00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:11.079 never took the time to lay things out very like 84 00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:15.480 methodically and specifically, Like you'll read his books and he'll 85 00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:18.360 use like five different names for the same term and 86 00:05:18.399 --> 00:05:21.240 never explain what he's doing, or like you look through 87 00:05:21.240 --> 00:05:23.920 his bibliography and like when the whim hits him, he'll 88 00:05:23.959 --> 00:05:26.839 like change the titles of books from like twenty years ago. 89 00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:29.959 So it's very like he was just very ad hoc, 90 00:05:30.199 --> 00:05:33.920 very just like you know, just rolling with it, rolling 91 00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:38.959 with punches, surfing the waves. But there were always these 92 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:44.560 tantalizing clues and statements that were perhaps under explored in 93 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:48.639 Larry's work and in Robert Anton Wilson's book were connecting 94 00:05:48.759 --> 00:05:52.879 this stuff to magic in the occult, and I mean 95 00:05:52.959 --> 00:05:54.959 people knew about it. There was there was a period 96 00:05:54.959 --> 00:06:00.000 of time where it seemed like every occult writer referenced 97 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:03.720 Leary's circuits, but like when you would dig into it, 98 00:06:03.759 --> 00:06:07.360 they didn't necessarily. It was almost like it was like 99 00:06:07.439 --> 00:06:10.199 the rigger, we have to mention this, but no, But 100 00:06:10.279 --> 00:06:12.920 when I would follow up with them, nobody really was 101 00:06:12.959 --> 00:06:17.920 working with the circuits in a I think maybe uh 102 00:06:19.839 --> 00:06:23.319 one of Jason Augustus Newcomb's books might have been the 103 00:06:23.319 --> 00:06:28.920 most serious attempt to look at Leary's ideas in the 104 00:06:29.199 --> 00:06:32.399 in the context of Western esotericism, but there wasn't a 105 00:06:32.439 --> 00:06:37.680 ton out there, and I just felt like it felt 106 00:06:38.759 --> 00:06:42.000 the eight circuit model felt to me like it was 107 00:06:42.040 --> 00:06:44.920 important and I wanted to dig into it and really 108 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:47.040 see if there was a there there. I could have 109 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:50.120 done that and found nothing. I could have like wasted 110 00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:52.399 a year, five years of my life or whatever. But 111 00:06:53.319 --> 00:06:56.600 what I instead found is that it's even was even 112 00:06:56.639 --> 00:07:00.279 a more fertile area to explore than you know, I 113 00:07:00.360 --> 00:07:03.720 knew when I undertook this project. 114 00:07:04.759 --> 00:07:08.800 I actually had a couple of people on maybe about 115 00:07:08.839 --> 00:07:11.480 a month or so ago for the eighth Circuit Model. 116 00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:13.120 It's pretty interesting. 117 00:07:13.959 --> 00:07:18.279 Yeah, was that Rachel and Douglas Wingate? 118 00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:19.079 Yah? 119 00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:22.360 Yeah, I heard that episode, and yeah, it's really interesting. 120 00:07:22.399 --> 00:07:26.120 When I started working on this project, Douglas, well, both 121 00:07:26.120 --> 00:07:28.959 of them were the some of the first people I found, 122 00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:33.319 and so we kind of like worked on our projects simultaneously. 123 00:07:33.399 --> 00:07:36.759 And of course they're coming from like a clinical background 124 00:07:36.839 --> 00:07:42.040 and I'm coming from a magical background. But yeah, they 125 00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:45.720 read my book and gave me notes and vice versa, 126 00:07:45.920 --> 00:07:50.560 and it's really exciting and to see a few different 127 00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:55.360 people exploring this stuff nowadays, and like currently, I think 128 00:07:55.480 --> 00:07:59.439 maybe there might be a small little Leary renaissance in 129 00:07:59.480 --> 00:08:02.519 the office. But it's very exciting that they're able to 130 00:08:04.519 --> 00:08:07.920 use the model in their field, which is kind of 131 00:08:07.959 --> 00:08:11.639 distinct from mine. But again, how how distinct can it 132 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:15.279 be if we're both able to go down the same 133 00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:16.480 rabbit hole there, you know. 134 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:23.360 From a therapeutic perspective per se versus an internal. 135 00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:27.720 Well yeah, yeah, and you know the important part is that, 136 00:08:29.959 --> 00:08:32.759 you know, Robert Anton Wilson had a term maybe logic, 137 00:08:33.159 --> 00:08:37.960 which you know, which is like maybe maybe it's you know, 138 00:08:38.039 --> 00:08:40.919 it's it's it's it's a it's a worldview or a 139 00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:45.840 type of logic where you place things that you can't 140 00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:49.799 quite confirm into a into its own box. And like, 141 00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:53.519 h I think a lot of people understand what that 142 00:08:53.559 --> 00:08:58.279 means intellectually, but not necessarily can live that way. But 143 00:08:58.519 --> 00:09:02.480 when you when you understand that, and you understand the 144 00:09:02.519 --> 00:09:06.080 idea that what Leary and Wilson created with the Hrivant 145 00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:10.720 models a framework for approaching knowledge. It can be used 146 00:09:10.759 --> 00:09:14.519 in all different kinds of fields or modalities. 147 00:09:14.519 --> 00:09:18.919 Right, yeah, And Robert Anton Wilson specifically, you know, when 148 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:22.639 he's talking he invents new words to describe things. He 149 00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:26.159 has these categories where they mean both the sides of 150 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:29.679 the same thing to encounter. It's very interesting Robert Anton 151 00:09:29.720 --> 00:09:34.399 Wilson's logic. But as far as Leary himself, you know, 152 00:09:34.519 --> 00:09:40.039 when there's the one video where Leary says he's continuing 153 00:09:40.120 --> 00:09:44.879 the work of Alistair Crowley, you know, and and can 154 00:09:44.919 --> 00:09:47.759 you get into any of that stuff where he didn't 155 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:51.960 they go and recreate some of the journeys of Crowley 156 00:09:52.360 --> 00:09:52.960 and kind of. 157 00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:58.480 Not to cut you off. Yeah, yeah, So one of 158 00:09:58.519 --> 00:10:01.440 the antecedents, an I don't know if that's right. One 159 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:04.159 of the precedents of of the psychedelic research that they 160 00:10:04.200 --> 00:10:09.320 discovered alongside people like William S. Burrows and Aldus Huxley 161 00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:16.679 was Alistair Crowley. And there's a really interesting story. And 162 00:10:16.679 --> 00:10:20.600 and John d was another one that you know, influenced 163 00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:23.519 Leary quite a bit. And Learry was not like a 164 00:10:23.559 --> 00:10:29.279 methodical occultist. He didn't like leave like rituals and ritual 165 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:33.120 rubric and you know, like but he but all these 166 00:10:33.159 --> 00:10:39.360 things GURGIAF. Crowley all informed his practice. So when he 167 00:10:39.559 --> 00:10:44.360 was in Algeria, when he was in exile because the 168 00:10:44.399 --> 00:10:50.080 he like escaped from prison. He was with a colleague 169 00:10:50.159 --> 00:10:55.039 named Brian Barrett and they were in Boosada. I never 170 00:10:55.240 --> 00:10:58.759 I'm not sure how to pronounce it, the area in 171 00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:06.960 Algiers in Algeria where Crowley and Victor Newburgh were doing 172 00:11:07.720 --> 00:11:11.720 anachi and rituals. And you know, Leary and Barrett were 173 00:11:11.720 --> 00:11:20.759 there tripping and they saw this figure and it, you know, 174 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:22.600 and they knew it had to do with John Dee 175 00:11:22.600 --> 00:11:25.720 and they didn't know what was going on. And then 176 00:11:27.679 --> 00:11:30.559 like a year later they discovered that that was the 177 00:11:30.600 --> 00:11:37.679 exact same area where Newburg and Crowley were doing these rituals. 178 00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:41.080 And then Leary took that a step further and when 179 00:11:41.080 --> 00:11:44.399 he was back in prison in the United States, he 180 00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:47.879 developed a ritual. It was him and a fellow prisoner 181 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:53.919 named Wayne Benner and their partners, and they developed a 182 00:11:53.960 --> 00:11:58.159 practice that was similar in a lot of ways to 183 00:11:59.159 --> 00:12:05.960 Dee and Kelly's practice and channeled transmissions from who knows where, 184 00:12:06.440 --> 00:12:11.159 the angelic realm, the angelic realm, their DNA, you know something, right, 185 00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:15.120 but so so yeah, so the occult was an influence, 186 00:12:15.159 --> 00:12:19.679 but Learry wasn't the type of person to like, you know, 187 00:12:19.759 --> 00:12:21.879 I think I think many of us. If we have 188 00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:25.440 like one or two good insights in life, we're lucky, 189 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:27.840 and we beat the hell out of it and we 190 00:12:27.840 --> 00:12:30.559 repeat it over and over. I think Leary was the 191 00:12:30.639 --> 00:12:34.440 kind of person that, you know, by the time something happened, 192 00:12:34.440 --> 00:12:36.679 he was already onto the next thing. So so he 193 00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:39.600 didn't really explore this occult stuff quite as much as 194 00:12:40.759 --> 00:12:42.639 I explored it for him. 195 00:12:42.679 --> 00:12:44.919 But it was part of the package of the things 196 00:12:44.919 --> 00:12:47.799 that were surround the ethos, the zeitgeist of the time. 197 00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:50.200 Mm hmm. Yeah. 198 00:12:51.159 --> 00:12:52.960 When you began this project, what do you think was 199 00:12:53.000 --> 00:12:55.919 like the biggest misconception people had about uh, Larry that 200 00:12:55.960 --> 00:12:57.039 he kind of wanted to correct. 201 00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:04.240 Well, you know, it was literally just trying to understand 202 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:09.120 for all the references to Crowley and to magic in 203 00:13:09.159 --> 00:13:13.120 the tarot, in Larry's more obscure works, if there was 204 00:13:13.240 --> 00:13:18.919 really are you know, if it really was an important 205 00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:21.960 part or not, you know. And then there were some 206 00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:28.480 dead ends, like I read an article about the like 207 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:32.279 the New York City occult scene in the nineteen seventies 208 00:13:32.399 --> 00:13:36.919 and how they were really into Larry's eight circuit model 209 00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:39.639 is prior magical practice, And I spoke to Peter Lavenda 210 00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:42.080 about it because he was there and he said, yeah, 211 00:13:42.080 --> 00:13:45.320 we don't. I don't somebody made that up, you know. So, 212 00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:47.000 I mean, there was like a lot of these dead ends, 213 00:13:47.039 --> 00:13:50.320 but there is a very strong through line of Larry's 214 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:57.000 work from the sixties, late fifties through you know, the 215 00:13:57.120 --> 00:14:00.480 end of his life that is held together by the 216 00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:04.600 occult and occult practice. 217 00:14:04.840 --> 00:14:05.720 Awesome to thank you. 218 00:14:08.799 --> 00:14:11.600 Do you think Leary himself understood that he was kind 219 00:14:11.639 --> 00:14:15.600 of operating in a i mean, in an occult lineage, 220 00:14:15.639 --> 00:14:18.639 or was he borrowing symbols and methods fully identifying as 221 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:19.320 an occultist. 222 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:25.360 No, he absolutely was aware he was a part of 223 00:14:25.399 --> 00:14:31.080 a tradition. He considered himself a reincarnation of Aleister Crowley. 224 00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:34.600 Which it's kind of funny because Crowley died in forty 225 00:14:34.639 --> 00:14:39.200 seven and Leary was born twenty years earlier. But his 226 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:45.000 definition of you know, he had a very interesting perspective 227 00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:50.200 on reincarnation. He felt that any person who left a 228 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:53.360 really strong imprint on your DNA, on the couct of 229 00:14:53.480 --> 00:14:57.639 unconscious could be said to be a reincarnation, you know, 230 00:14:57.960 --> 00:15:01.840 to be reincarnated through you. That's how we explained that. 231 00:15:02.200 --> 00:15:06.519 But yeah, so he he was, he really brought magic 232 00:15:06.799 --> 00:15:13.080 and space exploration and space migration together. He felt that 233 00:15:13.559 --> 00:15:17.759 our goal as a species was to leave the planet. 234 00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:22.600 He thought that we could not continue to evolve beyond 235 00:15:22.600 --> 00:15:26.240 a certain point if we're stuck on planet Earth. So 236 00:15:26.279 --> 00:15:30.399 he had a lot of these, you know, he had 237 00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:33.120 a lot of these concepts and slogans really that were 238 00:15:34.759 --> 00:15:38.639 his own, unique to him, but also refer to magic 239 00:15:38.840 --> 00:15:42.440 magical practice like turn in turn onto an in drop 240 00:15:42.440 --> 00:15:46.720 out as the one everybody knows, which is really magical ritual, 241 00:15:47.080 --> 00:15:53.639 like that's his summary of magical ritual or smile, space migration, intelligence, 242 00:15:53.679 --> 00:15:56.840 increase in life extension. He thought that that was the 243 00:15:56.960 --> 00:16:01.559 ultimate goal of humanity, and he very much framed it. 244 00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:03.720 I don't even think this has ever been published, but 245 00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:06.799 I read in his letters to Robert Anton Wilson in 246 00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:09.799 the New York Public Library where they keep the archives 247 00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:14.639 of Timothy Leary's archives, he wrote that, you know, Leary 248 00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:17.799 or Larry Crowley said do what thou will. But the 249 00:16:17.960 --> 00:16:21.679 question is then what do you do with that? You know, 250 00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:24.200 what do you will? And he said, you know, the 251 00:16:24.320 --> 00:16:28.159 answer is has to be space migration, intelligence, increase in 252 00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:30.679 life extension. So he is very aware that he was 253 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:31.720 part of a lineage. 254 00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:33.480 Yeah. 255 00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:36.799 Yeah, I mean I think he kind of made that 256 00:16:36.840 --> 00:16:38.960 obvious in the previous stuff you said. It was just 257 00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:42.960 you know, one of my questions anyway, Robbie, did you 258 00:16:42.960 --> 00:16:44.519 have anything you wanted to ask before I keep going? 259 00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:48.879 Yeah, just well, not necessarily asked, but just to add 260 00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:51.000 I met Leary, I don't know, it must have been 261 00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:53.679 ninety two or ninety three, and spend the evening with him, 262 00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:57.320 and he was at that time, this is when he 263 00:16:57.399 --> 00:17:02.600 was lecturing on the ideas of merger machine consciousnesses with 264 00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:08.400 human consciousnesses and the idea of that accelerating and leading 265 00:17:08.440 --> 00:17:11.319 to our ability to be able to become a second 266 00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:15.039 tier civilization and get off the planet because of the 267 00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:16.839 you know, when you get into the histories and the 268 00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:21.839 constant destructions that happen cyclically. But yeah, I just think 269 00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:27.039 it's it's very interesting just all the and I think 270 00:17:27.079 --> 00:17:32.279 that psychedelic culture in general is highly wrapped up in 271 00:17:33.559 --> 00:17:38.319 esoteric and occult ideas simply due to its international or 272 00:17:38.359 --> 00:17:42.480 it's into relationship between consciousness and transcendence. 273 00:17:43.720 --> 00:17:46.759 Yeah, and you know, and that's I think the important 274 00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:52.000 thing about Leary Leary in relation to the occult is 275 00:17:52.039 --> 00:17:56.079 like he's not expl I mean he is to an extent, 276 00:17:57.079 --> 00:18:00.920 like he's not making absolute claim of this is what 277 00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:03.839 this experience is, or this is what a spirit is, 278 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:06.359 you know, or how many angels can fit on the 279 00:18:06.359 --> 00:18:10.319 head of a pin. He's like giving a framework for 280 00:18:11.240 --> 00:18:19.440 understanding like different experiences that we as occultist ramistics or whatever. 281 00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:24.440 Experience like satory sensory bliss is very much like a 282 00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:29.160 c fifth circuit phenomenon or high magic really works with 283 00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:33.319 the sixth circuit, or if you start talking about archetypes 284 00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:37.400 or you know, collective unconscious talking about the seventh circuit. 285 00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:41.839 So he's not making claims about like he has theories 286 00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:45.759 about like where those places things might reside in the brain. 287 00:18:45.880 --> 00:18:47.720 And a lot of his science is now going to 288 00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:51.000 be you know, old, because he's been dead for thirty 289 00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:55.880 years and he was writing twenty years before that. But 290 00:18:56.160 --> 00:18:59.319 still as a framework, it's very useful for kind of 291 00:18:59.319 --> 00:19:03.160 categorize what your experience. And that's a lot of like 292 00:19:03.240 --> 00:19:08.440 what Douglas Wingate and doctor Rachel Tureski discussed in their 293 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:12.160 book eight Circuit Ascension is using the same framework for 294 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:18.680 psychedelic assistent therapy. You know, Jason Augustus Newcomb, and I 295 00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:21.519 think it's twenty one of his books, twenty first century 296 00:19:21.559 --> 00:19:27.960 Mage maybe refers to the circuits as you know, different 297 00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:32.440 experiences along the magical path. So I think this stuff 298 00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:37.799 is really useful for in a number of areas. But 299 00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:41.680 it's useful, but it's not like absolutely the truth of 300 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:42.680 the capital today. 301 00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:46.960 It's a system that's been found to work for the 302 00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:48.759 individuals that use it. 303 00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:51.000 Yeah, go ahead, Well. 304 00:19:50.920 --> 00:19:52.319 I was going to say, I think that a lot 305 00:19:52.359 --> 00:19:55.720 of these philosophies, dating back, you know, to pre Mystery 306 00:19:55.759 --> 00:20:00.279 School and back into Egyptian the culture kind of takes 307 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:05.559 on and uses the familiar things as symbols to uh 308 00:20:05.960 --> 00:20:09.759 basically you know, and as the fractal moves, those things 309 00:20:09.799 --> 00:20:14.119 manifest in different ways, becoming into the modern systems that 310 00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:16.000 we're trying to understand and regulate. 311 00:20:16.039 --> 00:20:16.279 Now. 312 00:20:17.839 --> 00:20:24.359 Yeah, you know, there's a lot to unpack there. Uh yeah, 313 00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:31.960 but uh yeah, yeah, I agree. 314 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:35.799 Uh, there's a question real quick before I ask you 315 00:20:35.799 --> 00:20:38.000 another one, de Larry, have any theories about reincarnation? 316 00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:44.000 You know, a lot of the like kind of more Yes, 317 00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:45.880 like he thought it was you know, he thought he 318 00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:50.319 was reincarnation of Timothy Leary, or of Robert Alistair Crowley. 319 00:20:50.680 --> 00:20:55.799 There's a lot of names thrown around, but yeah, yeah, 320 00:20:55.839 --> 00:20:59.119 he felt that reincarnation, like, you know, he felt that 321 00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:02.599 at a specific, fake level of consciousness, one could interact 322 00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:11.039 with whatever the collective unconsciousness unconscious unconscious is, and he 323 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:17.880 thought that reincarnation was kind of borrowing from Like so 324 00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:20.799 it's not like, you know, he's making no claims about 325 00:21:20.920 --> 00:21:24.640 spiritual the soul, but like, you know, whatever Alistair Crowley 326 00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:29.720 left lying around in the DNA, Leary picked up on 327 00:21:29.799 --> 00:21:33.640 and ran with it. He you know, he was continuing 328 00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:35.680 the same He called it a life script, and it 329 00:21:35.720 --> 00:21:38.640 wasn't like a literal thing, but as a metaphor, you know, 330 00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:41.720 it's kind of like a TV script. You'll you'll find 331 00:21:41.720 --> 00:21:45.400 that a lot of the common New Age or occult 332 00:21:45.640 --> 00:21:52.640 concepts that people take literally, Leary really made fun of. 333 00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:54.960 He didn't take it literally, but he saw all his 334 00:21:55.079 --> 00:21:59.039 pointing towards something I'm very much of the mind, and 335 00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:02.240 I probably get this from a lifelong fascination with Leary 336 00:22:02.279 --> 00:22:07.920 and Wilson, is that I'm not really interested in defining 337 00:22:08.039 --> 00:22:12.000 or explaining things that are kind of ineffable, like even 338 00:22:12.039 --> 00:22:16.920 talking about spirits. It's like what you think you're gonna 339 00:22:17.079 --> 00:22:20.160 like weigh a spirit, you know. So it's like like 340 00:22:20.200 --> 00:22:25.079 I understand it's people use that concept and it's very useful, 341 00:22:25.400 --> 00:22:28.839 and like the magicians I know that like kind of 342 00:22:28.839 --> 00:22:33.680 work traditionally in traditional paths or whatever seem to be 343 00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:35.559 a lot more effective than the ones. I know, this 344 00:22:35.640 --> 00:22:39.640 is just anecdotal that are like chaos musicians. Anything goes. 345 00:22:40.359 --> 00:22:43.720 But I don't think that necessarily says anything about the 346 00:22:43.799 --> 00:22:47.799 reality underlying what they're doing as much as perhaps technique, 347 00:22:49.400 --> 00:22:50.799 if that makes any sense whatsoever. 348 00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:56.759 Yeah, Yeah, another question, really well, I mean I want 349 00:22:56.799 --> 00:22:59.680 to ask if you know about this Leary reference to 350 00:22:59.720 --> 00:23:01.279 the Best Book of the Dead somewhat often. 351 00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:05.480 Yeah, he actually, you know, I talked about him. They 352 00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:11.519 they were looking for pre precursors to psychedelic research, and 353 00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:14.839 when he was at Harvard, they discovered that Tibetan Book 354 00:23:14.839 --> 00:23:20.559 of the Dead was actually a very useful manual for 355 00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:27.279 reprogramming personality and consciousness using psychedelics. So they saw he 356 00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:30.640 saw and used the Tibetan Book of the Dead as 357 00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:34.720 like a manual, like a like an owner's manual or 358 00:23:35.079 --> 00:23:38.960 or how to manual for for you know, psilocybin trips 359 00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:39.920 and LSD. 360 00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:41.920 Trips and ascended states. 361 00:23:41.720 --> 00:23:47.519 Ascended states correct. And Alvis Huxley actually, when he was 362 00:23:47.640 --> 00:23:51.799 on his deathbed, his wife led a session with him, 363 00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:56.559 an LSD session using Timothy Leary and his colleagues. They 364 00:23:56.599 --> 00:23:59.880 rewrote they did kind of like a psychedelic translation of 365 00:23:59.920 --> 00:24:07.279 the Benton Book of the Dead, and you know Aldus Huxley, yeah, 366 00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:10.400 used that and his wife used that to guide a 367 00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:14.319 trip when he was on his deathbed. So yeah, so yeah, 368 00:24:14.359 --> 00:24:17.279 it was definitely they definitely found the East to be 369 00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:21.960 fertile ground. I mean just the fact that all those guys, 370 00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:25.519 so it was kind of like the Triumvirent Richard Metzner, 371 00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:28.960 Ralph Metzner, Richard Alferd who became Barba rom DAWs, and 372 00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:33.279 Tim Leary we're kind of the research team or the 373 00:24:33.319 --> 00:24:36.240 head guys, and you know, they all had their extended 374 00:24:36.279 --> 00:24:39.720 periods of time in India, and of course Richard Albert 375 00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:43.759 became Barbara ram Das, so there's a real influence there 376 00:24:43.759 --> 00:24:48.000 as well. Yeah, which is following, you know, along with 377 00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:53.559 like you know, what's his name, Alan Bennett and Alistair 378 00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:57.160 Crowley taking or you know, borrowing or learning from the 379 00:24:57.200 --> 00:24:59.960 East and there right socialists. 380 00:25:01.400 --> 00:25:01.640 Yeah. 381 00:25:01.759 --> 00:25:04.559 Yeah, And what I think is interesting when you look 382 00:25:04.599 --> 00:25:09.200 at Alistair Crowley's history, and I don't know if you've 383 00:25:09.440 --> 00:25:12.039 there's a couple of research papers that he had a 384 00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:16.759 burlesque banjo troupe that they would basically take over these 385 00:25:16.880 --> 00:25:21.559 bars and then on admission, when you paid your entry fee, 386 00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:24.160 they would give you a cup of wine full of 387 00:25:24.200 --> 00:25:27.799 with mescaline and you would go in and basically they 388 00:25:27.799 --> 00:25:34.640 would have a theatrical, musical, kind of ritual show that 389 00:25:34.839 --> 00:25:37.799 entailed some aspects of the cult, some aspects of theater, 390 00:25:38.039 --> 00:25:40.559 some aspects of music. But then kind of when you 391 00:25:40.599 --> 00:25:46.279 trace that forward into the modern musical scene, getting into 392 00:25:46.359 --> 00:25:50.119 the acid tests, getting into the human being, and right 393 00:25:50.200 --> 00:25:53.240 up into the modern festival scene, where this has kind 394 00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:59.480 of become a large scale cultural kind of initiation practice 395 00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:01.319 per se. 396 00:26:01.559 --> 00:26:04.920 Yeah, I mean that's really wild. They called it the 397 00:26:05.039 --> 00:26:08.519 Rights of Eleusis, I believe was Curley's thing, Yeah, and 398 00:26:08.559 --> 00:26:13.480 it was, yeah, and he was. Curley was very aware 399 00:26:13.559 --> 00:26:18.240 of the fact that ritual, that feeder comes from ritual, 400 00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:20.960 and at one point theater and ritual were the same thing. 401 00:26:22.519 --> 00:26:25.039