Speaker 1: What is a fellow sick?
Speaker 2: Was I in Dan Falley coming at you with another
twenty twenty four, twenty twenty five NBA look at We're
onto the Dallas Mavericks, which means I get to speak
with Kirk Henderson. He is the co host of Pod Maverick.
He also does lots and lots of stuff with MAVs
Muddy Ball. Follow him on the Twitter machine or X
machine whatever at Kirk series face that's at k A
R K S E R I O U S F
A s CE excuse me the link and handle and
all that stuff, and as well to his podcast Pod Maverick. Again,
I love their post game stuff. I'm not a big
post game guy when it comes to single teams. I
like the you know, more of a macro trends guy.
But him and his co hosts, I believe Josh, they
do a fantastic job. But Kirk with the postgame stuff specifically,
I love listening to that and checking it out, getting
into a lot of stuff Dallas Mavericks.
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Speaker 1: But that's enough out of me.
Speaker 2: Let's get to talking all things Dallas Mavericks with the
one and only Kirk Kirk. Welcome back. Thank you so
much for coming back. I really appreciate it to come
on and talk some mas with me.
Speaker 1: How the heck are you doing? Man?
Speaker 3: I'm okay. It's very odd to be heading into a
season like content because there's usually all these pain points
with the middling team. But I've just enjoyed kind of
the following after the Mavericks made the finals and just
looking forward to what's ahead because they've had a solid
offseason without much that a man like me can complain about.
Speaker 1: That. Look, that's awesome, and that's kind of where I
want to start.
Speaker 2: I don't really like rehashing what happened last season, but
they remade themselves at the trade deadline.
Speaker 1: That sparks their finals run.
Speaker 2: What were just sort of your biggest takeaways or watching that, like,
you know, coming out of that leading into this offseason
and next season. Just what was something that like just
kind of stood out about how much they did shift
because of those moves that they made at the deadline.
Speaker 3: Well, the moves were part of it, but it also
came following the change and rule interpretation, and if we're
honest with ourselves, the Mavericks played played defense the way
the Legion of Boom Seahawks used to play defense, where
you can't call every foul, and the Mavericks were a
rough and tumble, unbelievably physical defense for like the last
fifteen games of the season right into the playoffs, and
that was really the thing which projected them to go
to go as far as they did. You know, Jason
Kidd is a I think he's a coach who is
very aware of how long the season is and he
only knows he has so many buttons he can push,
and the Mavericks have made it. I learned something that
the Mavericks that made a move at every trade deadline
for the past seven years, so organizationally, they value mixing
it up and so I think, you know, the two
things came together in a confluence of events that allowed
the Mavericks to get as far as they did last
year in the playoffs.
Speaker 2: Which by the way, I was not a fan of
their trade deadline at the time. So I got my
come up, and I mean very shortly after that with
how well.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's like when you get a guy like
like PJ. Tucker is just your consummate? Is he way
too high on the tone poll or is this franchise
a disaster kind of move? Because I wasn't high on
the move either, I mean not PJ. Tucker, PJ Washington,
and he just ended up really leaning into his role.
He's got a great frame, He's six seven with a
huge wingspan, and he played really well. And then the
vertical athleticism of Daniel Gafford and just sort of the
the you know, stereotypical junkyard dog mentality really gave Dallas
something that they needed because Derek Lively is the future,
but I think he needed someone to help carry the load,
and that was really impressive the way it worked out.
Speaker 2: So you look at what they've done this offseason, and
it's been, like I don't want to say necessarily more stuff,
but it was like a significant amount of stuff for
a team that just made the Finals. I feel like
we don't see that much action from a team that's
coming off of finals appearance.
Speaker 1: What did you think about their.
Speaker 2: Entire offseason process and even like factory and not just
the additions, but of course you do lose Derek Jones
Junior as part of that too.
Speaker 3: So it's fascinating Derek Jones Junior was signed as he
was the fifteenth guy signed. Yeah, I remember where I
was when it was happening because I was driving to
see my parents and I was in the middle of Oklahoma,
and I'm like, well, a minimum deal. This guy opted
out of a minimum deal to sign in Dallas. It's
an upside play and he played a little bit, but
he really didn't settle into his role until the final
half of the year. And while I do think the
Mavericks are going to miss him, I think that he
was definitely a whole like the he was accentuated by
playing with Luca, and I don't think he's going to
be near as well utilized though James is very impressive
out there with with Los Angeles, but the off season
this year was interesting Klay Thompson is. If anything, it
just sort of shares a bit of a signal shift
because the Mavericks. He's got to be one of the
biggest name free agents the Mavericks have ever signed. And
while it does seem he signed largely out of a
sense of spite at recent information indicates that Kyrie Irving
played a pretty big part in his just in conversations
with Klay Thompson, which I find very interesting because the Mavericks,
you know, they've had Dirk and they've had Luca, but
they've never had a true recruiter, just a cool guy,
and Kyrie has sort of served that function. So you
get a guy like him, you get Naji Marshall from
the New Orleans Pelicans, and it's always interesting when a
guy leaves one team and goes to another. You tend
to see fans either really bag on the guy the
way the Mavericks did with poor Tim Hardway June, which
drives me crazy because I kind of like Timmy or
you see him kind of effusive with their praise, and
Pelicans fans by and large like this guy is. You're
gonna like him. He's gonna bring a no nonsense attitude
and a sense of physicality to defense, to defense that
the Mavericks are really going to lean into. And then
that doesn't even you know, address the Quentin Grimes situation,
and I I just am am. He he replaces Tim
Hardaway is the most handsome Maverick, which is incredibly important.
The very the handsomeess power rankings is always important for
a team, and I just think he's gonna have a
lot of opportunity. You know, they moved on from Josh Green,
which was a player who I just will I just
wasn't my cup of tea. And yeah, so I just
so many things happens where I end up in a
place where it's like, all right, this team is is.
I'm curious to see how they're gonna be in the
regular season, but in a seven game playoff series, they're
They're terrifying for most teams.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels like you mentioned that Jason Kinosi has
like a limited number of buttons to push in the
regular season. It feels like, just stylistically, now, I love
Nause Marshall. I think Quenton Grimes, I mean, his first
two years in the league, he was hitting threes and
defending his ass off, and so if he's healthy, I
thought that was probably one of the more underrated and
to get him in the Tim Hardaway junior salary thing,
I don't really understand what Detroit was necessarily thinking there.
So I really like where they're at. But when you
look at someone like Klay Thompson, what do you make
of his overall fit, Like, do you think this signal
is maybe a shift of what some of the stuff
the MAVs are going to do offensively? Do you even
do at least trust that he'll buy into a more
limited role, because if you go back to what was
happening in Golden State, like he had a pretty shitty
shot selection towards the end of his time there, I
felt like he was struggling to just adapt to his
new role, the role they wanted him to play. Is
that just easier by virtue of the ball dominance in
Dallas from Luka and Kyrie, or just to being a
new environment. Just what do you sort of make of
that fit specifically?
Speaker 3: Well, I think that the Mavericks need is another guy
who could actively dribble. Dante Exum filled the role for
parts of the year, but I just get the sense
that Jason Kidd doesn't trust him. Clay Thompson can handle
the ball and can pass the ball. And you know,
there's Jared Duban of Last Night in Basketball put together
a really good compilation of Clay's passing to Golden State bigs.
And with all due respect to Golden State bigs, they're
not Derek Lively. So I can't wait to see him
in some pick and roll action and doing some different things.
I think, you know, I think the Matvericks are trying
to do things that will get the ball out of
Luca's hands in different playmaker's hands to where he just
doesn't need to have a thirty six percent usage rate,
to where he can have a thirty two percent usage rate.
And like we're talking like three possessions a game, we're
not talking about that much stuff. But I think that
Clay will find a way to get his shots. One
of the things that is woefully misunderstood about Luca from
people who think he is a ballhog, don't They don't
get that he wants to make the pass. He loves
the highlight pass way more than the circus shot. And
right now, if you're just talking about the Mavericks in
a broad situation of Clay's starting with Kyrie Irving, PJ Washington, Luka, Doncic,
Derek Lively. The guy you have to sag off on
right now is PJ. Washington, who ended up punishing the
Kahoma City Thunder. And so it's like that's and then
they've only added more shooting here. So it's like on paper,
and particularly in a regular season game where teams aren't
really scouting things to the nails, the Mavericks are gonna
have the ability to score the ball a lot of
different ways, and so I think Clay's shots will be there.
It wouldn't shock me if he waxes and wanes. I mean,
he's played a lot the last two years. I think
the average fan doesn't really understand that he came back
from that two year break injury break. It ended up
playing quite a lot of basketball. So he'll still play
a lot this year. He'll have his opportunities. I'm a
little I'm a little worried about role stuff, but not
because he's going to be a four banana, because I
think he kind of already was. It's more of a
how his kid work with him, Because I don't think
he responds Klay Thompson was responding to Kerr anymore, and
I'm curious to see how that will work out.
Speaker 2: I also do think that just being in like a
new environment and having to be the new guy probably
helps him where I've mentioned this before on this podcast anyway,
that seeing Draymond Green and Steph Curry not really shrinking
importance in Golden State. When you came up with those guys,
won four titles with those guys, it's probably just like
tougher to stomach and reconcile, So I feel.
Speaker 1: Like it'll be smoother.
Speaker 2: The one thing I would be curious though, and this
isn't an insult him. He's older, he's had those two
major injuries. He's just not even close to what he
was defensively. And so if we assume that he's gonna
start and at least play like starter level minutes or
close to it, do you think when he's playing with
Kyrie and Luca, that the MAVs have enough defensively to
to insulate him and to optimize that line.
Speaker 1: No, No, okay.
Speaker 3: And that's where the kind of mad scientist element of
a regular season comes into play, where we see what
kid tries. I think if you you bank in for
both Luca and Kyrie, both of them missing fifteen games each,
I think we'll see a lot of lineups where Klay
Thompson is like the second best scorer on the floor,
which does allow Dallas to play a Naji Marshall, a
Clinton Grimes and really try to basically patchworks the defense together.
I do think they're gonna have to add, you know,
they're just gonna have to ask Clay to guard more.
And I'm gonna be curious to see how you know,
he really hasn't shown it the last two years, but
I'm the words rose not very good and there's elements
of for me if if the situation is different and
are the and are the Mavericks able to cover different
things with him schematically, I'm I'm curious, Like he's not
the he's not the defender that that made him one
of the seventy five best players ever. Like that's that's
something that Mavericks fans are gonna have to come with.
But one thing is true, He's still six to seven.
And if you're putting out a line where Kyrie is
the smallest guy or even like say you exchange Kyrie
with you know, Grimes for periods like the Mats have
a big team, Yeah, they're huge. There there's something to
be said just for guys taking up space. Yeah, you
know it's it's that's not obviously the NBA level defense,
but against you know, the twenty of the thirty NBA teams,
you can sometimes get away with things like that.
Speaker 2: You mentioned that I just find interesting, So I want
to ask you about it that maybe taking Luke off
the ball a little bit more, he said, not a lot,
like a few possessions of game. What does it look
like in those situations where a lot of the times
now if he's off the ball kind of feels like
does he still just not kind of do anything?
Speaker 1: Is he chilling?
Speaker 3: No, that's a great question. I've been thinking about this lot.
So Adam Adas of d NVR went on Andrew Sharp's podcast,
God What is It? And they talked and he talked
about how basketball in the NBA level is really a
series of three man actions, two man actions or one
on one you're not really getting you know, full on
five out like offenses where guys are moving all the time.
Where the Mavericks have done, is they just kind of
plant Luca off ball and they let him stand there,
and he's just let him just so he can rest.
I personally be as a basketball fan, I need him
involved in the basketball sets without the ball, because that's
what causes chaos, Like when Kyrie Irving sets Luca a
screen that freaks defenses out. So Luca needs to be
setting a few more screens himself. Luca needs to be
doing you know, the occasional you know, cut from the wing,
like just different stuff to where you can make the
defense panic a little bit more. And that's on him
as much as anybody else, because I do understand, you know,
it's the middle of the third quarter, game forty two.
You're tired, and you just want to take a couple
of possessions off. But for the Mavericks to be the
team that they need to be, or that they're trying
to be and aspiring to be, they have to win
fifty five regular season games, which means Luca doing some
stuff that he probably isn't super thrilled about. But that's,
you know, that's what being the best player on your
team means. And so I hope he does play off ballmore.
Speaker 2: A lot of the reason to get back to Quentin
Grimes for a second that I was okay with them
losing Derek Jones Junior is because you bring in someone
like Quenton Grimes and you have that guy who can
defend like probably close to one through three, but can
definitely handle just like.
Speaker 1: Oh, the other team's smaller advantage creator.
Speaker 2: But I was just wondering, like to do the MAS
view him the same way, like is he coming in
with sort of like, well, we're gonna give you this role?
Are we going to see like, oh, maybe they will
go to Dante Xen a little bit more? Jayden Hardy
or Spencer did what he is.
Speaker 3: It's so fascinating because then you get into sort of
the GM side of this, where you have Jayden Hardy,
Quenton Grimes, and Dante Exam all essentially on the last
year of their deals one year each, and so each
guy has a real incentive to do their absolute best
and earn something. I mean, I know, I think is
last year and he could be a restricted free agent,
but it's you know, it's when you make money. Making
money in the NBA is is important to these guys.
It's why they're playing ressional basketball. So I'm not sure
how they view rhymes because, if anything, I think they
have too many choices, and they might. When you look
at the roster, I could see kid playing as many
as eleven guys some nights pretty regularly, which is weird.
I know, you don't get down to playoff rostersun til
you get you know, seven, eight at most, but they
just have some optionality there, and I find that I
find that interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah they do, and yeah, eleven guys is sort of
wild to just have even during the regular season that
you think deserve minutes. Derek Lively favored around these parts.
What stood out or most impressed you about what he
did as a as a rookie in Dallas.
Speaker 3: Well, I need to have a bit of a mea
culpa because on last year's podcast, I was like, we're
not here to talk about Derek Clively, We're here to
talk about Olivia Maxwell's prosper and I was wrong. Lively
is like an ever evolving Pokemon, and I have no
idea what his final form is going to be. But
everyone should be very, very afraid. He is so big
because he's seven foot two and two forty like he
outweighs chet holmgrin By twenty five pounds and it starts,
and that matters over the course of the series. In
particulars wear a guy out his evolution as to someone
who could because he couldn't set screens at Summer League
in twenty twenty three, comes in, he plays almost immediately.
He doesn't have the foul trouble I would have expected
he had a little bit of. He still only played,
you know, twenty eighth minutes a game, but he was
so wildly impactful and you know, I don't know if
you remember. I think it was against the Celtics, the
one game the Mavericks won where he hit a corner
three off like a wild play and everyone was freaking out,
and it's like, this is the future. The Mavericks are
basically saying he's not. He will never shoot threes for them,
But I love watching him operate like a seven foot
to Draymond Green. That is what I think his ultimate, psychotic,
unbelievable ceiling could be if he were to ever reach it.
He is so smart on offense and so capable on defense.
I just couldn't have picked a better player to play
with Luba Kancic. He's amazing.
Speaker 2: Is there anything specifically an area of development, or whether
that you're just tracking or monitoring most closely, like throughout
year two, and we also re just assuming he'll start now.
Speaker 3: I think the starting is there, but I also think
that he's such a team player to where he sees
he is willing to sort of do what's best in
terms of areas of improvement. I think it honestly depends
on how teams guard Luka. Okay, coming out of the
All Star Break last year, the Mavericks lost like six
of seven. Like I was calling for kids head. We
were all super pissed. What teams were doing during that
time was saying, we are not leaving Luca. We're not
sending any help at Luca. Whoever is guarding Luca is
going to be on an island. Luca's gonna have to
score blah blah blah points in order for the Maverige
to win, and they just kept coming up short. It's
very similar to how the Celtics guarded them in the finals,
but they were much better designed as a team for it.
I think Luca likes being double teams. And when Luca
likes being double teams, he likes finding the role man
and if Luca gets doubled a lot. Lively in operating
art of that short role is the thing that I
am most excited to watch, because against the Thunder he
had a couple of plays where you could see the
lights starting to turn on where he realized that, yes,
I am seven foot two and can take one power
dribble and finish with either hand because he's that kind
of finisher. He's really skilled with both hands. Or I
can roll and find somebody cutting to the short corner
for a dunk, or hit somebody in the corner for three.
He's really that kind of guy. So I'm very interested
to see how he plays as sort of a a
secondary playmaker given how pick and roll heavy the Mavericks are.
Speaker 2: And last year it sort of seemed like after the
trade deadline, of course, that there was I don't say
like a dead even minute split, because I know Lively.
I think he averaged under twenty minutes per game when
he came back from that injury before the regular season
was out. Like, how did we see the secondary big
man rotation working this year? Is it like we're gonna
heavily skew it towards Lively minutes or could there be
more of a dead even split or even as there
are we still trying to make them Ax and Kleba
happen as a primary big do you maybe get weird
for a few minutes a game? Not weird, but do
you put PJ at the five for a couple of
minutes or is it just like, oh, go ahead.
Speaker 3: I really hope they get weird and try different stuff,
But I bet they still go for sort of a
fifty to fifty split, okay, because you know all coaches
get when guys get that third foul or even that
second foul, you know they get a little skittish and
they immediately go to their bench guy. And when you're
very confident in your bench guy, you don't really hate
that as a as a fan of a given team,
because it's just you never know what you're gonna get
out of those guys. I bet they in there if
they're drawing up their minutes blocks and you got what
is it, so it's forty eight minutes times five? Like,
however minute you got forty eight center minutes, I bet
you probably try to go for twenty eight for Lively
in twenty for the other for the other center. But
then you know they do have Maxi Khliba, who is
an odd big that guy. If he plays ten minutes
a game for the Mavericks, I think they're in good shape.
He's a really helpful He's a really good help defender,
but not a great rum protector. I do hope they
do some funky stuff with their sizing and play PG
at the five sometimes just because why not, Like, let's
see what you have in terms of both offense and defense.
But that's what should happen, at least on paper.
Speaker 2: The I also I missed on the Daniel Gaffer acquisition
in the sense of some of my concerns came to
bear in the playoffs, but I need to play better
weight in as a regular season like high end innings,
innings minutes either excuse me, Like that is a dude
that just flat out works and like you mentioned, like
sort of the vertical athleticism is huge for them, and
so that was just he really impressed me with that,
and like having him for a full year that I
feel like at least makes a lot like life a
lot easier on Lively in the sense that you're even
saying the plan shouldn't be you don't need him to
play thirty minutes a game, is my point, Because you
have someone who's as good as Daniel Gafford and maybe
he's more likely to run into matchup issues, but that's
just another thing that you don't need to care about
as often in the regular season.
Speaker 3: Yep. Yeah, And that's what I'm sort of hoping for too,
because Lively also seems to have a penchant for odd injuries.
Sometimes that just happens, Like I would argue Kyrie Irving
is one of those guys where it's a key you
don't want to call him injury prone, but weird stuff
seems to happen like Lively getting you know, it felt
like if Lively were thirty instead of twenty, I think
Carl Towns might have ended his career with that need
of the back of the head. But instead, because he's
a twenty, he's like a twenty year old made out
of beef jerky. He just like stands up, shakes it off,
and is back in the next game. And it's like, okay, sure,
so I don't know, but it's it's having like having
a solid series of bigs is such an odd place
for me to be as a Mavericks fan. Because I'm
just I've endured has been or truly awful centers for
such a long time where it's like Mark let Tyson
Chandler go after one year, and so to get a
guy who feels like an evolutionary version of Tyson is
really fun.
Speaker 1: PJ. Washington is fascinating to me.
Speaker 2: It feels like, what is your level of trust just
in the role that they're gonna want him to assume,
Like do you trust him more to be like, oh,
the best non big defender or do you trust more
of what they need to from on offense, which is and
we saw he kind of was all over the place
of points, like he was hitting his threes, he was
missing his threes. Can he be someone who attacks closeouts?
Can he be someone that punishes mismatches?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 1: What is your level of trust him consistently.
Speaker 2: Feeling that like I guess the different spots that the
Mavericks need him.
Speaker 3: To like if the Mavericks have a weakness, this is
the one, because he's a four that they occasionally want
to masquerade as a three and I'm not sure he's
that great at it, and he's a very Why I
am high on him is because he's such a bundle
of attributes, but things wax and wane with him in
a real way. I made the joke repeatedly after they
got him that he needed Lasik because when he misses shots,
it's like, is there a breeze in the building, Like
what were you looking at? My guy? And then against
the Celtics, it really came out against the Celtics, which
maybe isn't fair, but it's a criticism that exists. He
has a terrible handle and with the way the Mavericks play,
if you're gonna be a release valve, you have to
be confident in putting the ball on the floor. You
just have to be And that's you know where you know,
the Mavericks have an assistant coach and God, sham God
where you hope that he just sort of put him
through sham God camp for the summer and he comes
out with just a slightly better let you know, just
a slightly better handle because he's got a really interesting package.
You know, he's got an odd floater game that really
works from like that five to nine foot range where
it's like, how did that ugly thing go in? But
the three point shot comes and goes in such wild
swings at the moment, I do not. I don't particularly
trust him, but it's a level it's like, oh, I
don't trust him compared to Kyrie Irving, Luka don Jic
and Klay Thompson. Like it's kind of a luxury, if
that makes sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, I guess I'm probably it sounds like
I was overweighting it because I didn't look at Clay
necessarily as the guy to kind of fill in the
spot of, oh, the third guy in the primary lineup
who can dribble or like attack in those situations, and
I viewed it more as like PJ. Washington, I feel
like needs to be that guy because it feels like
he'll be working with more space. But it does sound
like you might be higher on Klay Thompson being able
to fill in those gaps.
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean, I'm very I think I'm just still
instead of being so worried coming into the season about
different elements where they're short, because the Mavericks in twenty
twenty two to twenty three looks so dead in the
water and then they just came back in there, and
so I'm still just sort of living on a high
and I don't I've not yet written down all of
my concern points and that'll happen soon enough, though, because
I guess the season is sneaking up on us.
Speaker 1: Well. I think it was also big too.
Speaker 2: Is like they're to me, they at least feel better
from a talent perspective where it's day. I don't think
they compromise their defense, but I think they got a
lot more versatile on offense, even if the ball hand
with the third ball handler third attackers is still like
it was a concern they were working with last year
and they went pretty far as it turns out.
Speaker 3: And sometimes it requires a little bit of luck. Someone
asked me a very upsetting question on a mailbag pod
the other day where it's like, what do you think
about Jaden Hardy in comparison to rud Riek bou Blah
former Mavericks almost legend and this guy named Dominic Jones
who played with the team for like he was on
the title team but like never played like one of
these combo guards. And it's just like my answer was,
it's so great to not really have to care at all,
because it's like if you're getting that deep into the
roster to where somebody like Jayden Hardy matters. It's a
different you're talking about a different team, and like a
guy like Jayden Hardy, he was a difference maker in
the playoffs in a way that I will never be
able to properly contextualize. He threw up some garbage that
went in at the right time for the Mavericks, and
all you can do is go, Okay, I'll take it,
and then you know, I hope, hope it comes back
the next year. But it's just, you know, they're they're
just in a in a bizarre spot that I am
where I feel very bullish on my team.
Speaker 1: And I look, I think you're rightfully bullish on them.
Where are you sort of at though?
Speaker 2: With Jaden Hardy, who you by the way you mentioned
the playoffs and it felt like he kind of like
manifested out of nowhere to point like deep in the
postseason where oh, this guy wasn't getting regular minutes and
then if it's all of a sudden, what's that first
game he comes in he plays like was it fifteen
minutes or something against Oaklahoma City and it was like,
what's going on here?
Speaker 3: So I go to Summer League. I've gone to Summer
league every year for eleven years in a row. I
have never won money gambling for fun at any point.
Like I walked out down for ten straight years. This
year I actually walked out a little bit up. I'm
gonna use that as a comparison to Jaden Hardy because
he was down for two years with the Mavericks where
he was a mess players. Yeah, because he's six foot
three combo guard. He got I don't want to say
he got hot at the right time because he didn't
really choot that, but it's just his irrational confidence was
a thing that the team needed at specific points where
things were sort of wavering, and it's just it's crazy
to me that it ended up working. Like I just
I he is in such a peculiar player where he's
still developing. He's young but small, Like, let's just be honest.
Every year there's six foot three combo guards coming into
the league that can kind of shoot, can kind of pass,
you know. So for for my expectations for somebody like
him this year are are are very similar to Grimes
next somewhere. I just you hope that when the Mavericks
call on him for a fifteen, you know, for two
fifteen game stretches during an eighty two game season that
he's able to produce in a way that helps them
win ball games.
Speaker 1: Is that like?
Speaker 2: That seems like it could just be sort of a
vacillation point for their roster where it's like, on any
given night, it could be a Jaden Hardy Knight or
Quentin Grimes knight, or or an XM Knight type deal
where it's not going to be, oh, this one guy
of those three is penciled in, is he's gonna play
X amount of minutes.
Speaker 3: I think that's right, and I think that's often the
case with potential contenders because the season is just too
long to have seven you know, the Celtics might be
an exception, but the season is just too long to
have eight guys that can consistently play above average to
great basketball for seventy plus games. It's just too like
they're not they're they're you know, injuries, life slumps, you know,
it's things just happen sometimes where guys play play really
frustrating basketball and instead of having and the Mavericks now
have optionality where instead of playing you know, if Derek
Jones Junior hit a slump last year, they played, They
played him through it because they didn't really have the
other options, whereas now they got three to four guys.
I think that can sort of at different points and
give them at least opportunities. They might not play better,
but it's nice to have opportunities instead of saying, Okay,
well we're gonna go. You know, the Mavericks said this
thing after they were in the bubble where they resigned,
like Willy Cauley Stein to a deal and it's like,
who's offering Willy cally seign money? Like what are we
doing that? They just have a roster now that feels
as complete as it could be given the current salary
cap structure.
Speaker 2: One of the things that was fascinating or that I
thought was really cool about them is they played so
much faster than they have in seasons prior. They were
thirtieth in average offensive possession time in twenty two to
twenty three, they were like I had it written down here.
Speaker 1: I think it was was it seventh or fifth? Like, oh,
it was eighth. They shot up to last year.
Speaker 2: There was clear when you watched them, like I think
an emphasis of making quicker decisions off of grabbing defensive rebounds.
But was there anything else that went into that? Is
that simply just a mindset shift? And are they still
built to continue that trend because I thought it gave them.
We talked a lot about optionality here. They have the
ability to play in so many different ways. To me too,
because I think we saw them slow things down a
little bit when it was actively the you know, Kyrie
by himself or Luca by himself, when defenses were like
not as stretched thin because they're not focusing on two stars,
they're focusing on one.
Speaker 3: They need to play fast. I think that given the
horses and given the variation of guys, I think that
it works best for everyone if they're willing to play fast,
I said, and I'm just finished saying they need to.
I just think there just has to be a willingness
involved where Luca just really likes my strowing and controlling
everything from the go. But now I think he has
confidence in the guys that he's passing ahead. Two. You
got Kyrie streaking on the wing, you got Klay Thompson,
you got Derek Leively. Like as the season went on
last year, he started like he tried lots of preposterous stuff. Uh,
he in, you know, the Mavericks and the playoffs had
like so like they had more dunks than any team
since like the one Lakers or something. It was. It
was nuts. And it comes from their sort of willingness
to really press when they have the advantage, and so
it's hopefully it's built into the strategy. I think it's
pretty important for them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm gonna be curious to see because Clay can
still move, but I'm just wondering if having him at
times or even I guess Nagie marsh is actually pretty
good in transition. I was gonna say, instead of Derek
Jones Junior, if that changed anything.
Speaker 3: So that I'm gonna miss. I asked the Mavericks official
this and he said, you know, we never really ran
any plays for Derek Jones, like he just kind of
got those dunks. But it's those dunks are it's it's
like it's like when you see a you know, a
team get hot in baseball all of a sudden, it
just takes the one thing. And I think there's an
emotional element to the Mavericks playing with athletic guys and
getting those dunks that they need to find a way
to keep trying to manufacture. You know, Josh Green, who
was maligned by me and by others, he was another
spark plug, like they have to other guys are gonna
have to step in into those roles and fill them
in some way, shape or form.
Speaker 2: I have to ask about this just because you sold
me Oma's real estate podcast last year. Where are you
I haven't sold yet, that's a consolation, But where are
you at with Olivia Maxon's prosper.
Speaker 3: I'm glad they don't need him. I don't after seeing
him in Summer League this year not really look any different.
I have concerns. One thing that I don't think is
not talked about enough, And I guess it is to
a degree like the G League Ignite sort of went
up in flames as a developmental structure for the NBA,
and I don't think we're talking about why enough because
G League basketball is not really remotely similar to NBA basketball,
Like it's such a faster pace. So it's like I
was watching you know, O max stuff in the G
League and he puts up really nice stats and then
he comes to the NBA and it's not like I
expect him to get thirty points but there are just
times when he looks really lost. One of the things
that he coming into the league, which was very good
at at college, it's like he seemed to be a
guy where he's almost like a shutdown corner where you
put him on someone and he can definitely keep that
guy from scoring. But he's not a great team defender.
And so I just I'm a little bit I'm worried
in so far as I can be about a team
again that just came off the finals. I hope he
gets his opportunities. But when I mentioned, you know, the
Mavericks potentially playing you know, nine, ten, eleven guys, when
you go down the list, you start to look and
you're like, all right, who's gonna be one of the
odd and out? And I think right now, given the
team structure, he's gonna be the one of the odd
guys out who just doesn't get many many chances.
Speaker 2: Well, what's also tough with someone like him, and maybe
I'm just showing my ignorance to what goes on in
the G League, is that it's probably it's hard to
just replicate if he's getting that time, what he would
do with this basketball team, because he's either going to
be playing with less talented players who can't really put
him in the situations he would be an or you're
just gonna give him a ton of volume on the ball,
which he's just never gonna get with the actual Mavericks.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And I think that's part of the part
of the problem where it's not that he is he
is perfectly. You know, if you assume the NBA is
four and fifty of the best players in the world,
and there's about a thousand guys worldwide that could probably
play minutes in the NBA, you get some of these
guys that are younger, better, and they just don't really
get a chance to show what they could do because
the situation isn't right for them. And he might be
one of those guys. But he's also just he's big,
he's like six to eight, he's got great shoulders, he's
got the I don't want to say like the measurables,
because he really didn't have that great combine testing, but
like there's something there where you look at the guy
and go, I think someone can make that guy a
basketball player, and so maybe they'll get the opportunity. I'm
not really sure where he would fit with them at
the moment, but you know, it's another large, large, rangey guy,
so I'm hopeful for him, but not bullish this year.
Speaker 1: Are you ready to enter the cookie cutter portion of
the podcast?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: Is there a strength or just something about this team
that you think flies under the radar needs to be
talked about more?
Speaker 3: O a strength that needs to be talked about more,
you know after a finals run. I don't think so.
My co host and I were just talking about how
we have to sort of be ready and be on
our game early when the season starts, because the Mavericks
are going to have more eyes, whereas when they started
last year, I mean they had tanked to miss, you know,
the tenth seed. They were going to miss it anyways,
but it's a they just had such bad vibes coming
into the year in twenty twenty three twenty four, and
nobody really noticed that they were very good because they
got off to an eight and two start and then
effectively played under five hundred basketball until the All Star Game.
Like Luca had that seventy point game, which I really
wish people talked about more because he was like that
was one of the silliest things I've seen, and it's
that they said. It's like the rule changes point came
pretty soon after that, Like he shot like nine to
fifteen from three, Like that's why he scored seventy point.
I don't really think that there's too much that's flying
under the radar about this team this much. They're they're
head cover, they're associate head coach. Sean Sweeney nearly getting
hired by Detroit is probably like secretly one of the
big wins for the Mavericks because I think he is
like the the Thibodeaux to Doc Rivers Celtics team where
he really helped assemble the defense, And so if there's
a defensive upside for this team, it's because I believe
he might be able to shape it.
Speaker 2: Do you prefer, by the way, it's totally off topic,
but do you prefer your own peace of mind?
Speaker 1: You feel good about this team? That's much easier to do.
Speaker 2: Do you prefer that, like they're kind of forefront in
the national conscious for all basketball reasons now, like or
does that get like are you one of the people
that might feel.
Speaker 1: Better if people were doubting your team inherently?
Speaker 3: I mean, it's nice and it really depends on how
you like to consume sports. Where you get the kind
of fans that are like, nobody's talking about our team.
That's annoying, and then you get the then when people
are talking about your team, they're not talking about our
team correctly. Yeah, it's like it's like what do you want?
You know, there's such a smorgas board of content where
you can kind of find the content that you want,
and like, like, I like it so long as the
team is interesting. You know, I'm sure you've had to
cover some very bad teams over the years, and like
when the team is not good by around game forty,
there's nothing more to say and you have forty more
games to get to. And so I'm at least pleased
that everything is interesting to where I have, like, look,
we're gonna be we're at the thirty eight minute mark already,
Like it's it's there's just there's stuff to talk about
with this team, which is fun.
Speaker 1: I also like too that it feels like there's different I.
Speaker 2: Mean, you talk about everything when you cover them, probably
the two games, but from a national perspective, when it
feels like even looking at other national outlets covering them,
it feels like there's variable talking points now as opposed
to what was it two or three years of like
the Lukadantre contract situation and his future, and now the
focus has kind of shifted towards I'm not one of
those that it needs to be on basketball all the time,
but there's so many different intriguing things about this team
beyond like, well, what's gonna happen transactionally with them?
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's fun because you know the the if
you move past kind of the the the headliner aspect
of oh is Klay Thompson gonna like playing in such
a Luca heavy scheme? The questions of what can you
do with Klay Thompson on offense with these different players
is really fun to think about. Like basketball is such
a it's such a game of margins and really tiny ones,
and this team is so interesting from a basketball point
of view, and that's and that's what's nice. I'm lucky
to work with my My MAVs podcast. My my co
host is like he's like one of these guys that
can watch a play and see it one time and
being able to explain every element. And so I'm just like,
I can't wait till once the season is going to
be able to say, oh, right, you know this is
the elevator player they ran for, they ran for Klay Thompson.
Oh man, well look how he gets this pick and
roll and the dunk and an easy dunk for you know,
Daniel Gafford like that. I just I can't wait for
that stuff is there?
Speaker 2: And I know last year when I asked you this question,
it might still be the same answer. But when you're
looking at this roster, what's the biggest concern you have
about it?
Speaker 3: To use an overused phrase, I'm sort of wondering who's
who's the point of the tack defender? Like who do they?
Who do they in that role? But I think they
have some interesting options. Like you've mentioned before, Quentin Grimes,
spect Nagie Marshall, and PJ. Washington all get cracks at
it depending on who the player is.
Speaker 2: Nag he's good at like those, like when you're putting
up against someone who's like has like that on ball burst,
but like the guys who have changes of speed, Like
he did some pretty good stuff against Shay I thought
when he played against him, So like, I don't think
people are considering him or Quinton grinds enough when they
talk about what the mass potentially lost in Derrek Jones
Junior Yep.
Speaker 3: Yep, and then it's gonna be fun to see how
they get those things to work. I mean, we get
some critical of NBA players because you see so many
games in them, but like when you really boil it down,
particularly guys that are still within their prime, they're so
incredible with with the range of things they can do.
And so it's like for guys that I'm not as
familiar with, meaning Marshall and Grimes, I just can't wait
to learn about them and learn about what their strengths
are within the Dallas team. So that's gonna be fun.
Speaker 2: You'll have to let me know if Grimes is still
unhappy about not working with the ball in his hands, though,
that'll be something that you'll need to track for me.
Speaker 3: Interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was That was a weird thing he had
in New York. He didn't really play in Detroit, so
it didn't matter, but I thought that was one of
the more bizarre things that I saw.
Speaker 1: So you mentioned there's eleven guys who you think need
to play.
Speaker 2: I'm going to ask you, though everyone's healthy, who are
who are the top ten?
Speaker 1: Like, what's that ten man rotation? Look like?
Speaker 3: Whoa pulling up? I'm pulling up the roster now I'm
pulling up because because you gave us a nice little rundown,
and so it's your your starters are self evident to me.
Where you have lou Don Chich, Kyrie, Irving, Klay Thompson, PJ. Washington,
derk Lyvewood, that's your five. The first guy off the
bench or the first big off the bench is is
is the afore mentioned Daniel Gafford. He's obviously fantastic. Now
after that is you get a lot of question of
feel of who's who's going to be the next guy.
To me, my initial inclination, given sort of what they've
talked about, has to be Naujie Marshall. But again it's
how they structure Kyrie's minutes, Luca's minuttes is so interesting
because you just have different guys that can do different things.
So it's you know, is Daniel get Is it going
to be Dante ExHAM that comes off? Is it going
to be Quentin Grimes? You know you wrote down Maxi
Kleeber as their tenth. On top of that, But then
that that that's where you start to really get into
these these different looks at things. Where you have Olivia
Maxillon's prosper who who we talked about a few seconds ago.
You have Jayden har is that guy gonna be someone
that matters. Then there's like we didn't even talk about him.
There's Spencer Dinwiddie. Spencer Dinwitdy exists and like, I personally
can't believe they brought him back because they sent him
out and I am very certain they were tired of
his of his he's like the he's like the the
colleague who when things are going great, you love having
him around, but when things aren't, he's it's like, dude,
shut up, Like that's that's that's Spencer Dinwiddy. Like he
was giving like two and three minute answers to stuff
before they traded him, about what the team needed to
do better while he was shooting like ass and it's like, buddy,
read the room, you're not that guy. Don't do it.
But yeah, it's just it's it's it's gonna be really
fascinating to me. I can't believe I forgot about Dinwity.
That's just think he That's what I mean when I
said they have they have twelve, you know, twelveish guys.
So it's it's gonna be I don't say it's gonna
be interesting. It'll probably be stressful. There's probably gonna be
some some definite narrative structure that will come out of that,
depending on who's happy or unhappy. But you know, winning
cures all and hopefully the you know, a team that
just got to the finals has that taste to where
they can put aside things and try to get there again.
Speaker 2: It does show like a level of belief in Jason
Kidd or just what you're doing organizationally that they weren't
worried about putting a club in Jason kids or the
team's bag, that they might lean on too much and
you don't want them to where it's like, okay, you
have Quenton Grimes and jaydon Hardy, you might become too
rely on Spencer Dinwoes. He's not what you need just
because he's the quote unquote veteran. But to have him there,
it seems like that's just no, we know what we're doing,
like we're just gonna I've been using the hashtag try
shit for a bunch of different teams throughout the stories.
It seems like they're willing to experiment based off some
of the stuff they did last year too. So I'm
fascinated by their death because I think they have a
lot of good things to figure out, but it's still
stuff to figure out. Yeah, so obviously, and I think
with this team it could be even more so. The
crunch time lineups will be matchup dependent. But if you
have to guess, what do you think ends up being
their most user, most relied upon crunch time unit.
Speaker 3: This is where the narratives are gonna come from. Clay
was obviously very pissed that he was not in closing lineups,
and I just think it's gotta be really, really variable
because let's see, if you were wanting to throw out
a defensive lineup for this team. Let's say you were
trying to run run out the clock. Mavericks are up
by fifteen, you you got four and a half minutes left.
You can theoretically run a lineup with Luca, Naji Marshall,
Quentin Grimes, Maxi Kleiba, and Derrek Cleveley. And you know, Luca,
I just have I have belief that he's going to
come into the season as a better defender. Luca with
those four guys behind him, that's a tough team to
It's a tougher team to score on. Then you know
the starters that we talked about that have some some
turnstiles on there. So it's I think it's going to
be very matchup dependent and very situational. And this is
that's where where where Jason Kidd has his work really
really really cut out for him, and I am that's
probably if if there's something that I'm not looking forward to,
it's that sort of stuff because you would hope that
winning trump's all. But at the same time, guys want
to finish games and they want to start games. It's maddening.
Speaker 2: Yeah, is there like I don't, I still kind of
view it, and maybe you feel differently about PJ. Washington
or the big It does feel like there might be
four locks for gunch time when you look at Lively, Washington, Luca,
and Kyrie and I view that Clay spot where whether
it's dodging Marshall or if you want to go with
I don't know why you would want maybe Quinton grinds
in certain like areas, Is that the spot or could
you see them fuzzing and fiddling elsewhere, whether it's with
the Washington spot, is it will there be some matchups
or maybe they're not closing with the traditional big.
Speaker 3: I think they're the fusing with the Washington spot is
going to be the the sort of sneaky angle of
all this. I do think you're you're right about the
the three. The Klay Thompson starting spot is going to
be the one that's pretty obvious. But I do think
that the PJ. Washington part of this is going to
be interesting too.
Speaker 2: Is there a weird, offbeat or funky line up you
would like to see them try this season?
Speaker 3: Oo? I do love so you mentioned Washington at the five,
and I would love them to put like an uber
small lineup where lucas the four, where he doesn't need
to touch the ball, where you get Kyrie actually running point,
and something like where Luca is essentially because I mean
he has the size of a of a nineteen eighties
power forward, Like why not just just put him down
there and or you know, put him in a little
bit of a different spot and see what happens. I
just would have always sort of loved the idea of
Luca at the four or the five now and then
they've tried it a few times and it's been really fun.
But I I it's just when you get it, when
you get traditional bigs that are actually functional, it's hard
to not play them. So I doubt they're gonna do
I defthely do anything that He's not really kids, not
Rick Carlisle, like Rick Carlisle would get. He's just like,
what's the weirdest shit imaginable I can do and still
get win? Like that's that's the Rick mindset. It's not
it's not kid.
Speaker 2: I want to see them go like ultra jumbo sized,
where it's like you have Lively and Luca and Washington,
then give me nausey. And I understand that Klay six seven,
but this is supposed to be a funky lineup. Let's
just throw mexicallyb out there and we'll use him, Washington
and uh Lively as the front line and we can
kind of see what happens.
Speaker 1: I don't know what that necessarily looks like, but who
is this is Luca the shortest player in that lineup
at that point?
Speaker 3: And I love crap like that, Like it's you know,
it's so funny when you see it's hard. It's hard
to tell on TV, I think because it's just you
get used to it. But then if you're ever in
a game one person, the way that they find, like
the guys take up so much space on the floor,
it's like, I'm almost shocked that they're able to get
shots off, and like a team like that would be
hilarious to watch score against.
Speaker 2: Before we get to their win total place in the West,
is there anything anyone that we haven't discussed that you
would like to touch upon?
Speaker 3: No, I think we're pretty good. Covered a lot of
bases here.
Speaker 2: So their win total as we record this is set
at forty nine and a half.
Speaker 1: Are you taking the over under on that?
Speaker 2: And where do you kind of like what are your
expectations for They're in a weird spot because they're near
the top of the West, Like, what are your expectations for?
Speaker 1: Is it top four that you're hoping there against?
Speaker 3: So I'm assuming the thunder are at the top. What's
their win total?
Speaker 1: Um, let me see, I do not have it pulled up.
Speaker 2: I think they were in the mid fifties if I
was not mistaken though, So they are at Oklahoma City
has fifty six and a half.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that might actually be. I think I
saw them at fifty seven and a half.
Speaker 3: That's great and that's got to be frightening for a
betting point of view. But they're so stinking good. I
expect them to win like sixty two, like they're just
and so you know, I I would place the place
an over bet on that forty nine and a half
because the Mavericks won fifty last year exactly, they're fifty
and thirty two. I'm pretty sure I could be wrong.
Speaker 2: No, you were right, and that was with whatever the
hell was happening, like before they remade the roster.
Speaker 3: Right one they like this is the dirty secret? Is
j kids record in October, November, March, and April is
so much better with the Mavericks than the other three
months than November, December, January, in February. It drives me crazy. Anyway,
I would I would place an over bet because I
think that the Mavericks, if there's a goal to be
had for them, it is home court in the playoffs.
They have technically had home court one time in the
Lukadancic era, and it was actually against the Utah Jazz
when he was hurt and they lost Game one. Anyways,
they have one game one and a Jason kidds playoff
thing one time the entire and Jason Kidd, believe it
or not, already has more playoff series wins than Rick
Carlisle won a championship. So that's just sort of a
reminder of how hard it actually is to get out
of the first round in the NBA, because it's just
you know, it's one and done. You're done. And so
I think the Maverick need to establish home court. I
think they need to win about fifty five games, and
I think they they need to be fighting for a
for a I don't think anybody's touching the thunder. I
think they need to be fighting for that two three spot.
Speaker 2: The I this is the first one. I've done about
a dozen of these so far. The forty nine and a
half feels low. I've looked at all these other numbers.
I've been like, all right, like that makes sense. Forty
nine and a half feels really low for Dallas.
Speaker 3: It absolutely to me. It is because if you win
fifty and you make the finals, and you see sort
of a framework of a team that ought to be
pretty good. I would have assumed like fifty two and
a half. You know, something like that that really makes you,
really makes you because I think they hit that over easily,
and I sense I not not to be a homer
in this insance. It's just it's like they've with Luka
Doncic healthy and Jason Kidd at the Helm, they've won
fifty or more game twice and then made the conference
finals the NBA Finals, Like I just and maybe there's maybe,
but you know, maybe there's something there playing into the
history of the RCT. The fact that Jason Kidd doesn't
really have a very good regular season record, that's maybe
that's part of it.
Speaker 1: Is there really quickly?
Speaker 2: Is there any team though, like at the top of
the West or the West thing you find is like
the either the toughest or most fascinating matchup in a
perspective series or even just on a regular season where
you want to see Denver.
Speaker 3: The styles make fights things because you know Luca, if
you if you consider the Mavericks sort of a ball
like Luca heavy offense, and then you're playing against the Nuggets,
who are very much the balls. The ball is poppin'
and and the fact that the Mavericks, I mean, Nikola
Jokic to me is the best player in the world
by a margin. You know. I think Luca is in
that mix with the honest and and and embiid if
you're a sociopath, uh and just really and and there
there's a distance second and so I think that the nugget.
But the Nuggets also to me don't have the depth.
Speaker 1: No, they don't, right.
Speaker 3: Well, Michael Kid, Michael Crust, Michael Porter Jr. Is I
just have. I've feared him since high school in terms
of being a scorer because it's like when that guy
get finds his green light, there's no stopping him. And
he just like he shot awful in the playoffs last
year for them, and was I think kind of a
secret reason outside of Jamal Murray being injured in fat
as to why they lost. So it's like, if those
two things are right, those two to me, because you
remember they get like one of the great regular season
matchups was the Nuggets versus the Mavericks where Kyrie scored
that last second garbage lefty floater over Jokics. Like the
two teams just play. Really, it's it's just two different
brands of basketball, and I think that would be a
really fun series. But there other than the War, other
than the Oklahoma City Thunder, which to me now essentially
don't have weaknesses, the Nuggets are the team that I
think give the Mavericks the most run for their money.
Speaker 2: I am interested in the Thunder matchup with Isaiah Hartenstein,
though I don't know if it really pays to go
duel big against Dallas, like when PJ.
Speaker 1: Washington is their quote unquote second big.
Speaker 2: But I do think Hartenstein makes that matchup between Okay
in Dallas a lot more interesting.
Speaker 3: I mean just fun like Hartenstein, and because I don't
know if you remember this this one play, but like
they were trying to intentionally foul Lively and Lively was
just out running There's I'll say if I can send
it to you offline, but it really made me laugh
where it's like he is out running Chet, like it
looks like they're playing a game of tag. And Hartenstein
is just such a He's just such an energy monster,
like the guy like he was a guy that I
always wanted the Mavericks again and they just couldn't make
the money work. And it's like it's it's I mean,
she signed one of the biggest free agent contracts and
in Oklahoma City, so it's uh in history for them.
So it's they're They're just gonna be a really fun
team to watch. And I can't believe they got Caruso.
Caruso is a guy that I got in twenty nineteen.
So the twenty nineteen offseason for the Mavericks, which is
a year they got christte you know, they signed, they
got prizings from the net, Like they had a deal
in place to bring Caruso in and Cuban went back
on it and they signed they signed Boban instead, And
like it's one of those like sliding doors moments with me,
because I think Caruso would have been the kind of
guard to help take the Mavericks places because he's just
so He's just such a he's just such a utility guard.
He's just everything. I mean you wanted to shoot more anyway,
this is a.
Speaker 2: Now and he's somehow been undervalued by each of his
two teams when you look at the Lakers running him
walk and then whatever the hell Chicago just did. But
not a Bulls podcast, Kirk, this was great as always.
Are you just able to tell our listeners where they
can find you and all the great work that you do.
Speaker 3: So earlier in the show, I briefly forgot the name
of my own podcast when I said a Mavericks podcast.
That's because it's called a pod Maverick. And then our
website is mavsmoneyball dot com. I just got done bringing
on nine new volunteers. I'm looking forward to see what
things are written about Mavericks in the coming weeks and months,
and it's it's certainly going to be an exciting and
weird basketball season. I can't wait.
Speaker 1: Sure to subscribe to Pop Maverick. The link will be
in the podcasting YouTube description.
Speaker 2: Kirk, as you know by now, I'll be best bring you
again down the line and thank you so much for
your time.
Speaker 3: Happy day man h