WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.120 --> 00:00:02.359 Welcome to Hacking Your Leadership. 2 00:00:02.399 --> 00:00:04.200 I'm Chris and I'm Lorenzo and Lorenzo. 3 00:00:04.240 --> 00:00:07.360 In this episode, we're completing the discussion that we've been 4 00:00:07.400 --> 00:00:10.439 talking about for the last three weeks on problems that 5 00:00:10.519 --> 00:00:13.960 leaders have with their teams or potential problems that it 6 00:00:14.039 --> 00:00:17.480 is their responsibility to solve. And it might not be 7 00:00:17.600 --> 00:00:20.559 something that is, you know, widespread, it's it's localized to 8 00:00:20.600 --> 00:00:23.079 a team. Last week we talked about what happens when 9 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:25.320 your team is playing politics. I really thought that was 10 00:00:25.320 --> 00:00:27.039 a great discussion, so if you haven't heard it yet, 11 00:00:27.160 --> 00:00:29.679 go back and listen to it. The fourth topic in 12 00:00:29.719 --> 00:00:33.240 this discussion, based on the article from Sam Atiemi, is 13 00:00:33.359 --> 00:00:36.439 what happens when your team is losing sight of their ethics? 14 00:00:36.520 --> 00:00:39.119 And boy, this this, this is a can of worms 15 00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:41.560 on this one because there there is so much to 16 00:00:41.679 --> 00:00:46.719 unpack in terms of what is unethical, what isn't, what 17 00:00:46.920 --> 00:00:49.560 happens when it comes from the top, like the the 18 00:00:49.640 --> 00:00:52.479 organizational leadership as a whole versus what happens when it's 19 00:00:52.479 --> 00:00:55.039 coming from the team leader as a whole or something 20 00:00:55.479 --> 00:00:58.960 in middle management, and also what happens when it's happening 21 00:00:59.000 --> 00:01:03.479 from an individual employee. And and what a leader's responsibility 22 00:01:03.520 --> 00:01:06.840 is to kind of address that before it becomes widespread, 23 00:01:07.239 --> 00:01:10.159 because there's no doubt that regardless of where it's coming from, 24 00:01:10.799 --> 00:01:16.200 the moment the team believes that the unethical behavior is 25 00:01:16.280 --> 00:01:22.280 what is either promoted or even tolerated, that will spread 26 00:01:22.359 --> 00:01:25.599 into a disengagement with the rest of the team or 27 00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:28.879 you know, a lack of productivity or worst case scenario, 28 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:31.760 the lack of ethics will spread and they have a 29 00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:34.599 much larger problem, you know, with a team as opposed 30 00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:36.239 to just being localized to a single person. 31 00:01:36.359 --> 00:01:39.879 Yeah, whenever I hear like ethics and ethical behavior, I'm 32 00:01:39.920 --> 00:01:44.159 immediately pulled to like the extremes, like right, are we lying, cheating, 33 00:01:44.280 --> 00:01:46.680 stealing that type of thing? Right? And again, like that's 34 00:01:46.680 --> 00:01:49.200 the rarity exactly, That's what I'm saying, that that's the rarity, 35 00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:51.599 Like does it happen, Yes, but like that's not actually 36 00:01:52.200 --> 00:01:56.200 the things that become things that then can echo through 37 00:01:56.239 --> 00:01:58.319 a team. And I'll give you a great, real personal 38 00:01:58.359 --> 00:02:01.239 example of myself, Like you know, I have over my 39 00:02:01.359 --> 00:02:06.239 career gotten feedback around my sense of humor or around 40 00:02:06.319 --> 00:02:08.400 like just how I do things, and I overuse it 41 00:02:08.400 --> 00:02:13.199 from time to time, and you know, again, while I 42 00:02:13.240 --> 00:02:15.360 will always be open to the feedback, will accept it, 43 00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:17.439 will make adjustments, we'll learn from it type of thing. 44 00:02:17.879 --> 00:02:21.400 There are elements of that where if I have relationships 45 00:02:21.400 --> 00:02:24.560 with people, or I have the ability to be who 46 00:02:24.680 --> 00:02:27.960 I am and read a room and know when to 47 00:02:28.080 --> 00:02:30.000 joke or how to joke and when to pull back 48 00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:32.400 and things like that, if I'm a leader of people 49 00:02:32.439 --> 00:02:35.240 and they look to emulate my behavior, they may not 50 00:02:35.400 --> 00:02:39.319 have all those same relationships, those same skills, those same understandings. 51 00:02:39.680 --> 00:02:42.960 And then by default, right I am, I'm kind of 52 00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:46.439 teaching this behavior or something that's okay And again not 53 00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:50.759 that it's like wildly unethical, but it could cause issues 54 00:02:50.759 --> 00:02:54.080 and problems amongst the team, around the culture, around how 55 00:02:54.080 --> 00:02:56.280 we get work done. So like just as a small 56 00:02:56.319 --> 00:02:59.759 example of I think like things that we don't necessarily 57 00:02:59.800 --> 00:03:03.319 think about as like unethical behavior, but if you if 58 00:03:03.360 --> 00:03:05.919 you pull the thread on something like that, it can 59 00:03:06.039 --> 00:03:09.960 have a really big impact on a team and that 60 00:03:10.039 --> 00:03:13.599 can cause things and decisions or well, if it's okay 61 00:03:13.639 --> 00:03:15.599 to joke around about this, then it's okay to joke 62 00:03:15.639 --> 00:03:18.319 around about that, And maybe it's not okay to joke 63 00:03:18.360 --> 00:03:20.120 around about that and like that, you know what I'm saying. So, like, 64 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:23.400 those are things that for me when I when I 65 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:25.759 start to think about a conversation like this, I stay 66 00:03:25.800 --> 00:03:28.360 away from the big extremes and I say, well, let's 67 00:03:28.360 --> 00:03:31.960 talk about like things that may not seem like a 68 00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:35.240 big eye, like a big problem or an issue, but 69 00:03:35.439 --> 00:03:40.000 really can be if you don't understand how they impact 70 00:03:40.039 --> 00:03:43.080 individuals and cultures, and especially when you sit in the 71 00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:45.319 seat of a leader, because there are things that we 72 00:03:45.400 --> 00:03:49.639 all do that then become replicated, you know, as a 73 00:03:49.639 --> 00:03:51.479 result of just the fact that people are trying to 74 00:03:51.520 --> 00:03:54.719 emulate what they might believe a successful behavior, right. 75 00:03:54.639 --> 00:03:57.960 Right, And to touch on that too, there are things 76 00:03:58.520 --> 00:04:02.120 that are okay for a person to do if they 77 00:04:02.199 --> 00:04:06.439 aren't in a leadership role that become not okay to 78 00:04:06.520 --> 00:04:09.840 do in a leadership role, even if it's the exact 79 00:04:09.879 --> 00:04:14.840 same thing, right. It's it's the it's like, how you know, 80 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:17.959 speaking about like a retail environment. In a retail environment, 81 00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:21.240 if a person is you know, sixteen or seventeen years 82 00:04:21.279 --> 00:04:24.199 old and they're working their first part time job and 83 00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:27.879 they there's an issue with them, you know, coming to 84 00:04:27.920 --> 00:04:33.959 work on time, right, there's almost an assumption that that's okay, 85 00:04:34.680 --> 00:04:38.240 or at least there's a higher threshold for tolerance because 86 00:04:38.399 --> 00:04:41.360 you have you expect certain things out of certain people 87 00:04:41.399 --> 00:04:43.839 based on where they are on their lives. And if 88 00:04:43.839 --> 00:04:46.639 I heard that I had a seventeen year old reporting 89 00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:49.000 to me that was having difficulty getting to work on time, 90 00:04:49.240 --> 00:04:51.720 we'd have discussions about it, and it would just be 91 00:04:51.759 --> 00:04:53.879 it would it would be in the context of the 92 00:04:53.879 --> 00:04:57.240 broader knowledge that I have around that person and where 93 00:04:57.240 --> 00:04:59.279 they are on their lives. If if I was in 94 00:04:59.839 --> 00:05:01.879 a leader of a team of people who were all 95 00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:03.720 in their thirties and forties and there was a person 96 00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:05.600 who had a hard time getting to work on time, 97 00:05:05.959 --> 00:05:08.480 that implies something In my own head, I think differently 98 00:05:08.519 --> 00:05:11.560 about that. It's like, why isn't this figured out yet? 99 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:13.199 You know what? What? Or if a leader has it 100 00:05:13.279 --> 00:05:15.519 has difficulty getting to work on time, why isn't this 101 00:05:15.560 --> 00:05:18.600 figured out yet? Right? And And so there's this this 102 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:23.800 kind of this element of tolerance that that happens when 103 00:05:23.959 --> 00:05:26.800 individuals do things that aren't in leadership roles, that that 104 00:05:27.040 --> 00:05:31.079 aren't tolerated in a leadership role, and that muddies the 105 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:33.079 lines of what is okay and what is not okay 106 00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:35.680 because again, like you said, if it's okay for this person, 107 00:05:35.800 --> 00:05:38.240 why isn't it okay for this person? And the answer 108 00:05:38.319 --> 00:05:39.879 might be as simple as, well, this person is in 109 00:05:39.920 --> 00:05:43.480 a leadership role. And and that's that's even too vague 110 00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:45.839 to say, because that that alone doesn't say it. But 111 00:05:45.920 --> 00:05:47.879 yet for some reason, in my head it does say it. 112 00:05:47.879 --> 00:05:50.120 It's like, well, you have a responsibility as a leader 113 00:05:50.160 --> 00:05:53.079 that you don't necessarily have in a non leadership role. 114 00:05:53.319 --> 00:05:55.839 And so when I've seen this kind of rear its 115 00:05:55.920 --> 00:06:00.279 ugly head, a lot of times it's based on I'll 116 00:06:00.279 --> 00:06:02.879 give you kind of a scenario or an example that 117 00:06:03.240 --> 00:06:08.560 I've seen happen many times. An employee has difficulty executing 118 00:06:08.680 --> 00:06:10.639 on things they're supposed to execute on. They don't have 119 00:06:10.680 --> 00:06:12.759 the skills, they haven't been given the training, they haven't 120 00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:16.160 given the leadership time to make sure they have the 121 00:06:16.759 --> 00:06:19.759 training and skills to get something done, but they feel 122 00:06:19.759 --> 00:06:22.079 like they're being held accountable to getting that thing done. 123 00:06:22.439 --> 00:06:25.000 And there's a disconnect on the training. And so the 124 00:06:25.399 --> 00:06:29.439 employee who is tired of hearing I'm falling short, I'm 125 00:06:29.480 --> 00:06:31.519 falling short on this and this and this all the time, 126 00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:35.279 they in the absence of the skills and the training 127 00:06:35.399 --> 00:06:38.480 and the real work needed to get a person up 128 00:06:38.519 --> 00:06:41.199 to speed, they start coming up with other ways of 129 00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:45.199 accomplishing the same thing, other ways of accomplishing the same results. 130 00:06:45.959 --> 00:06:50.360 And it starts with cutting corners, and it can lead 131 00:06:50.480 --> 00:06:54.079 to unethical behavior with regard to how they interact with 132 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:58.000 their clients or customers that can lead to the results 133 00:06:58.040 --> 00:07:00.600 on paper looking like they've been turned aroun, I have 134 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:02.519 to fix this. Look at look at my results. They're 135 00:07:02.560 --> 00:07:05.879 they're great now. And if the leader at that point 136 00:07:06.040 --> 00:07:08.000 just goes, oh, yeah, you're right. I can see on 137 00:07:08.040 --> 00:07:10.680 my spreadsheet of all the employees that you've turned this 138 00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:13.240 thing around, good job to you. I'm going to stop 139 00:07:13.279 --> 00:07:17.160 paying attention now. As opposed to thinking, okay, let's validate this, 140 00:07:17.439 --> 00:07:19.560 let's like show me this in action. I want to 141 00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:22.279 I want to make sure that it's not just the 142 00:07:22.360 --> 00:07:24.480 result that you know that, it's not just the results 143 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:27.199 that I'm looking for. It's the behaviors that I'm looking for, 144 00:07:27.560 --> 00:07:29.959 because I believe that if the behaviors are there, the 145 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:32.959 results will be there on a long enough timeline or 146 00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:36.160 on a long enough average of time. But if I 147 00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:39.560 don't validate that because either a I'm not invested in 148 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:42.720 the employee actually getting better, or I'm not. I don't 149 00:07:42.759 --> 00:07:46.120 actually care about the process. I just care about the results, 150 00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:49.199 because that's all I think my leader cares about. They're 151 00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:51.680 just they're just hounding me about the results. So, like 152 00:07:51.879 --> 00:07:55.319 you know, the the stuff rolls downhill. Right, If that's 153 00:07:55.480 --> 00:07:59.000 if that's the culture, is one of the results matter, 154 00:07:59.319 --> 00:08:02.240 not how we got there matters. That is a breeding 155 00:08:02.279 --> 00:08:05.399 ground for these things happening, for the little cuttings of 156 00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:09.000 corners that turn into unethical behavior that then get validated 157 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:11.680 because people with the great results get hyped up and 158 00:08:11.959 --> 00:08:13.560 have the spotlight shown on them and they put on 159 00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:16.480 pedestals and this person does a great job. Well, did 160 00:08:16.519 --> 00:08:19.879 they do a great job or are they doing things incorrectly? 161 00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:22.399 And a lot of that can be determined simply by 162 00:08:22.439 --> 00:08:25.360 looking at outliers. Right, If a person is head and 163 00:08:25.399 --> 00:08:28.920 shoulders above literally everybody else, you're doing a disservice to 164 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:31.439 your your like you're literally it's a dereliction of duty 165 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:33.840 as a leader. If one person is head and shoulders 166 00:08:33.879 --> 00:08:36.440 of everybody else and you're not investigating why that is. 167 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:41.240 If the person has turned around the results really quickly 168 00:08:41.679 --> 00:08:44.159 from being a low performer to being a high performer. 169 00:08:44.519 --> 00:08:46.840 It's also a dereliction of duty if you don't investigate 170 00:08:47.080 --> 00:08:50.080 are they actually doing things right? If a person is 171 00:08:50.120 --> 00:08:52.759 doing an average job that is in line with other 172 00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:56.000 high performers on the team or in the broader environment, 173 00:08:56.279 --> 00:08:59.399 it might need less investigating, but it's still your responsibility 174 00:08:59.399 --> 00:09:03.720 as a leader periodically investigate how the results are being obtained, 175 00:09:04.080 --> 00:09:07.080 because if you don't do that and it has turned 176 00:09:07.159 --> 00:09:11.440 into the cutting corners unethical behavior from a person, again, 177 00:09:11.600 --> 00:09:15.519 it might spread to other people before you, before you've 178 00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:17.799 done what it takes to stop that, and then you 179 00:09:17.840 --> 00:09:19.600 have a much bigger problem on your hands than if 180 00:09:19.639 --> 00:09:21.080 you addressed it with the individual. 181 00:09:21.200 --> 00:09:24.840 Yeah, I like that In this kind of podcast that 182 00:09:24.919 --> 00:09:28.080 I kind of went the here's the behaviors that you 183 00:09:28.120 --> 00:09:30.039 create as a leader sometimes you're not aware of, and 184 00:09:30.039 --> 00:09:32.399 then you discussed the kind of like here's the leader, 185 00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:35.200 here's the things that can happen if you're not validating 186 00:09:35.240 --> 00:09:36.879 as a leader, you know what I mean, Like, and 187 00:09:37.159 --> 00:09:39.000 that's really the two sides I think of kind of 188 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:42.159 the ethical element of this, because you're so right about 189 00:09:42.159 --> 00:09:44.440 the fact of like how do you validate, where do 190 00:09:44.519 --> 00:09:47.399 you spend your time? How do you measure success? And 191 00:09:47.879 --> 00:09:51.120 and you know, if it's too simple, if it's too easy, 192 00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:53.799 if it's just a data point, if it's just an outcome, 193 00:09:54.159 --> 00:09:56.720 and you're not taking the time to really understand how 194 00:09:57.039 --> 00:10:01.039 people did the work, then that's exactly where you are. 195 00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:05.000 You know, maybe intentionally, maybe not intentionally, but you're creating 196 00:10:05.159 --> 00:10:10.559 these types of behaviors or potential opportunities for unethical behavior 197 00:10:10.600 --> 00:10:13.399 to happen because you're just simply saying it's all about 198 00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:16.600 this thing, you know, and and and again. Like in 199 00:10:16.600 --> 00:10:22.240 industries and in jobs, in places where the outcomes absolutely matter, right, 200 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:25.240 they absolutely matter, you have to measure them. A part 201 00:10:25.279 --> 00:10:28.320 of the job is being someone as a leader, as 202 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:31.720 an employee who is good at positively impacting the outcomes 203 00:10:31.759 --> 00:10:34.240 of the organization, like that's taking a job and getting 204 00:10:34.240 --> 00:10:37.399 paid by company to do that. Those things absolutely matter. 205 00:10:37.879 --> 00:10:40.600 But as a leader, a big part of that responsibility 206 00:10:40.720 --> 00:10:44.519 is digging into to understand how it's being done, asking 207 00:10:44.559 --> 00:10:48.600 the questions going deeper and again, I'm I'm just as 208 00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:51.559 interested in how are we so good at something? As 209 00:10:51.639 --> 00:10:53.000 much as I am as how are we so bad? 210 00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:54.679 At something. You know what I mean? I want to 211 00:10:54.720 --> 00:10:58.720 know both, because this is so good at something, if 212 00:10:58.759 --> 00:11:00.799 there is not intention there, or if there is not 213 00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:06.480 a clear strategy aligned with values and growth and development 214 00:11:06.480 --> 00:11:10.600 and skill building, that that is a larger issue in 215 00:11:10.679 --> 00:11:13.559 my mind than being bad at something and somebody saying 216 00:11:13.720 --> 00:11:14.960 we're just not good at it and we don't know 217 00:11:14.960 --> 00:11:16.879 how to do it. Okay, Like we can work with that, 218 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:18.759 you know what I'm saying, We can work with teaching 219 00:11:18.759 --> 00:11:21.000 people how to do that. But if you're really good 220 00:11:21.039 --> 00:11:22.840 at something and you don't even know why or how, 221 00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:25.639 I need to understand that. I need to dig deeper 222 00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:28.559 into figuring that part out, because that can create a 223 00:11:28.600 --> 00:11:34.240 false sense of success and believing that you know, you're 224 00:11:34.360 --> 00:11:36.200 just really good at something that you may put no 225 00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:39.720 effort into, and that's not helpful in building a great 226 00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:42.279 rounded culture of performance, right. 227 00:11:42.399 --> 00:11:45.600 I like the example you just gave of someone saying 228 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:47.360 I'm just not good at this and I don't know 229 00:11:47.360 --> 00:11:50.679 how to do it, and that seems like obvious and easy. 230 00:11:51.200 --> 00:11:54.000 But if there isn't a culture that supports people being 231 00:11:54.039 --> 00:11:56.960 able to do that, that's when that doesn't happen, and 232 00:11:57.000 --> 00:11:59.200 when people start coming up with their own ways. And 233 00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:01.399 so if a person and doesn't feel like they are 234 00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:04.279 safe to go to their leader and say, I just 235 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:05.960 don't know how to do this. I'm not good at this, 236 00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:08.120 I don't know how to do this. If a person 237 00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:10.240 knows they can do that, and the response from the 238 00:12:10.320 --> 00:12:12.919 leader is I can work with that, like what you said, 239 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:15.720 then you're golden. That's that's great, that's how you actually 240 00:12:15.720 --> 00:12:17.960 solve a problem. But if when a person says that, 241 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:20.960 the response is an eye roll and like why do 242 00:12:21.080 --> 00:12:23.080 we hire you that? Like I thought, like you've been 243 00:12:23.080 --> 00:12:24.519 here long enough, you should know how to do this. 244 00:12:24.799 --> 00:12:27.519 The longer person goes in a role or in a 245 00:12:27.639 --> 00:12:31.679 job without knowing how to do something, the harder it 246 00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:33.080 is to speak up and say they don't know how 247 00:12:33.080 --> 00:12:34.759 to do it. It's the it's the Chris Prap meme. 248 00:12:35.399 --> 00:12:36.600 I don't know what to do here, and at this 249 00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:39.480 point I'm afraid to ask, right. It's like it's easy 250 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:40.919 to ask the question or to say I don't know 251 00:12:40.919 --> 00:12:43.240 how to do it on day one when you have 252 00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:46.480 like kind of blanket immunity against not knowing how to 253 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:48.720 do the job. It's your first day, right, and even 254 00:12:48.759 --> 00:12:51.159 maybe the first few weeks of the first quarter. But 255 00:12:51.480 --> 00:12:54.720 at a certain point in time, you might be believe 256 00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:58.759 that your leaders think that by this time in the role, 257 00:12:59.000 --> 00:13:00.799 you should know how to do this. And if you 258 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:03.240 believe that's the case to the point where you don't 259 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:05.159 have the ability to speak up and say I don't 260 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:07.840 know how to do something, then that's when it starts 261 00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:10.759 to become easy to cut corners. The other thing that 262 00:13:10.879 --> 00:13:12.080 I want to bring up when it comes to this 263 00:13:12.200 --> 00:13:14.720 kind of unethical behavior is when it comes to the 264 00:13:15.039 --> 00:13:19.679 leadership kind of validation. I've been in organizations where the 265 00:13:19.840 --> 00:13:23.240 leader was not validating the positive stuff, like when things 266 00:13:23.279 --> 00:13:25.399 were going really, really well, they didn't validate that with 267 00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:30.919 their behaviors. And it's not because they they didn't. It's 268 00:13:30.919 --> 00:13:33.960 not because that they wanted the lack of ethics to happen. 269 00:13:34.399 --> 00:13:38.120 It's because they a loved the accolades they were getting 270 00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:40.799 for the positive results and didn't want to lift up 271 00:13:40.840 --> 00:13:42.600 the rug to see the roaches underneath. They were just 272 00:13:42.679 --> 00:13:45.960 kind of happy being able to say I don't know 273 00:13:46.039 --> 00:13:48.679 that they're doing anything unethical, and it was true, they 274 00:13:48.679 --> 00:13:51.200 don't know because but it doesn't mean it's not really 275 00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:53.879 their responsibility to know. It is their responsibility to know, 276 00:13:53.919 --> 00:13:56.799 and they just decided not to know. When it comes 277 00:13:56.840 --> 00:13:59.720 to validating those behaviors, there's only so much that a 278 00:13:59.799 --> 00:14:03.320 per can do when they are several layers of leadership 279 00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:06.600 removed from where those behaviors are happening. So if you're 280 00:14:06.639 --> 00:14:09.639 a leader of leader of a leader of leaders of leaders, 281 00:14:10.159 --> 00:14:12.960 then you may not have much interaction with the people 282 00:14:12.960 --> 00:14:15.720 who are executing whatever that strategy is, and it might 283 00:14:15.759 --> 00:14:19.320 be very difficult for you to validate those behaviors on 284 00:14:19.559 --> 00:14:22.240 an actual one on basis. But that doesn't mean that 285 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:25.000 it's not your responsibility to speak to your direct reports 286 00:14:25.639 --> 00:14:28.519 about the importance of validating those behaviors and to make 287 00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:31.679 sure that it sounds something like I would love to 288 00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:34.080 know how they're doing this, don't you don't you don't 289 00:14:34.519 --> 00:14:36.679 You don't respond from a yeah, right, I'd like to 290 00:14:36.759 --> 00:14:39.159 I don't believe this, Let's see how they're really doing it. No, 291 00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:42.039 you can assume positive intent from a standpoint of hey, 292 00:14:42.279 --> 00:14:44.279 if you're if this is working so well on your 293 00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:47.720 team or with this person, it's we're doing a disservice 294 00:14:47.720 --> 00:14:49.399 everybody else. If we don't kind of share the how, 295 00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:51.320 right we need to figure out how how how to 296 00:14:51.320 --> 00:14:53.120 spread this out to make sure that more people are 297 00:14:53.159 --> 00:14:55.799 doing it well. So let's let's validate this with a 298 00:14:56.039 --> 00:14:58.840 with a process. Let's find out how we can get 299 00:14:58.840 --> 00:15:02.039 this person to get into a stretch assignment role to 300 00:15:02.080 --> 00:15:04.440 teach others how to do this correctly. If they're doing 301 00:15:04.519 --> 00:15:06.840 something unethical, Believe me, they will shy away from those 302 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:10.279 stretch assignments because they know that they you know that 303 00:15:10.279 --> 00:15:14.399 the emperor has no clothes, right, they want to if 304 00:15:14.399 --> 00:15:17.200 they're doing it correctly, they'll want the accolades. They'll be like, yeah, 305 00:15:17.240 --> 00:15:18.679 let me, let me show you how I'm doing this. 306 00:15:19.159 --> 00:15:22.000 And you have to keep your keep in mind at 307 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:25.799 the possibility of the person legitimately believing they're doing it 308 00:15:25.799 --> 00:15:28.279 the right way, but they're not doing it the right way, 309 00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:31.080 so that it's not necessarily unethical, but it doesn't mean 310 00:15:31.080 --> 00:15:33.320 it doesn't need to change. If a person is doing 311 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:35.919 something the wrong way but they believe it's the right way, 312 00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:40.519 that just means that the accountability process doesn't look like, Okay, 313 00:15:40.519 --> 00:15:41.879 we need to have a discussion around whether or not 314 00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:46.120 you belong here, because the decisions you're making fall or 315 00:15:46.120 --> 00:15:48.360 you know, rise to the level of a lack of ethics. 316 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:50.759 If it is truly just they don't know how to 317 00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:52.639 do it and they think this is the right way, 318 00:15:53.200 --> 00:15:55.919 then that person is salvageable with the right training and 319 00:15:55.960 --> 00:15:59.240 the right changes to the process. Because that's that's a 320 00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:02.320 difference between you know, performance and character. Is the performance 321 00:16:02.360 --> 00:16:04.679 low or or is there a shortage of character? 322 00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:07.159 Absolutely, And with that it brings us this episodes one 323 00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:09.200 minute hack. But first a few words from our sponsors. 324 00:16:10.120 --> 00:16:11.840 All right, for this episode one minute Hackers or wants 325 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:14.440 you to do. If you're a leader of people whose 326 00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:17.799 actual behaviors you have visibility to, you need to be 327 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:21.080 looking at the results as a starting point for where 328 00:16:21.080 --> 00:16:23.799 to investigate further. And while every person on your team 329 00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:27.279 deserves time to validate, the people who are the outliers, 330 00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:30.080 both at the high end and the low end, need 331 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:33.480 that consistent validation of what the process is that led 332 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:35.559 them to the results to make sure that they are 333 00:16:35.679 --> 00:16:37.679 doing it the right way or the people at the 334 00:16:37.720 --> 00:16:39.639 low end that they are they have the skills to 335 00:16:39.639 --> 00:16:41.320 do it the right way. If you're a leader of 336 00:16:41.399 --> 00:16:44.879 leaders and you don't have as much access or time 337 00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:49.039 or visibility to the result, to the behavior is necessary 338 00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:53.480 to create the results. It becomes incumbent upon you to 339 00:16:53.559 --> 00:16:56.840 speak to your direct reports around the importance of validating 340 00:16:56.840 --> 00:17:00.399 the behavior every single time they come to you to 341 00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:02.759 talk about results. So, if you're a leader of leaders 342 00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:04.680 and the person comes to you and says, look a 343 00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:06.799 look at what my team is doing. These are the 344 00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:09.519 people who doing it really well. I love what they're doing. 345 00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:11.519 These are the people that I'm working with, and they're 346 00:17:11.559 --> 00:17:14.319 talking about how well the team is from a results standpoint, 347 00:17:14.519 --> 00:17:16.319 the very next words out of your mouth should be, 348 00:17:16.519 --> 00:17:18.319 how are they doing it? I want to know how 349 00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:21.039 they're doing it? And if that leader can't that, that 350 00:17:21.160 --> 00:17:24.519 leader of people who reports to you can't speak to that, Oh, 351 00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:26.799 this is how they're doing it. This abc D, these 352 00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:29.119 are the steps. If they can't speak to it right away, 353 00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:32.839 it means that they have not validated it themselves. If 354 00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:34.920 they're kind of pencil whipping it on the fly, like 355 00:17:34.960 --> 00:17:37.039 they're I gotta make this up as I go. You'll 356 00:17:37.039 --> 00:17:39.680 be able to know that. So figure out whether or 357 00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:42.000 not they actually can speak to the why behind it, 358 00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:45.160 because if that's not the first words out of your mouth, 359 00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:48.279 then the person that you're speaking to will be under 360 00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:50.319 the impression that what's important to you is the result, 361 00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:52.880 not the behavior that got there. And while the results 362 00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:56.400 are important, they're merely a validator for behaviors. And if 363 00:17:56.440 --> 00:17:59.920 the behaviors are in line with the ethics and the 364 00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:02.640 values of the organization, and that leader can speak to 365 00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:05.000 the behaviors that are actually happening, then you're on the 366 00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:08.559 right track. But again, pushing back on how did they 367 00:18:08.599 --> 00:18:11.279 get there should be the first thing you say, because 368 00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:13.599 that will create a culture on your team that says, Okay, 369 00:18:13.880 --> 00:18:16.759 my boss knows that what's important here isn't just the results, 370 00:18:16.759 --> 00:18:17.480 it's how we got there. 371 00:18:17.559 --> 00:18:20.000 Absolutely, Yeah, I think it's a great call out and 372 00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:23.160 taking the time again to just get into the how. 373 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:25.319 That's that's the biggest thing for me, is like, Hey, 374 00:18:25.319 --> 00:18:27.640 I see that you've kind of got the what down. 375 00:18:27.880 --> 00:18:29.680 This is what we're measuring, this is what you're doing, 376 00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:32.079 and I can see that, but I need to see 377 00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:34.200 the how. Walk me through it. What's the commitments, what 378 00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:37.039 are the actions, what are the behaviors, what are the expectations? Now, 379 00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:39.319 let's go validate that that in fact, what you're saying 380 00:18:39.400 --> 00:18:41.400 you're doing is exactly what you're doing, And then again, 381 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:44.279 on the flip side of that, if you're having struggles 382 00:18:44.359 --> 00:18:46.640 or you're you know, you're seeing people that have opportunities 383 00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:48.759 with things, it's important to get to them as well 384 00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:52.559 and say, hey, I see it, right, let's work together 385 00:18:52.599 --> 00:18:54.279 to figure this out and make sure that you can 386 00:18:54.279 --> 00:18:56.680 see some progress and some improvement here, because if you 387 00:18:56.720 --> 00:19:00.359 don't address that, that also can lead to un ethical 388 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:02.880 behavior because they may be desperate to do whatever they 389 00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:04.720 can to get whatever they're trying to get, and that 390 00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:06.960 could cause a major issue as well from a leadership standpoint. 391 00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:08.480 Right, And the last thing I want to say about 392 00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:10.440 this is that one of the ways you can create 393 00:19:10.440 --> 00:19:13.920 this culture is by how you decide who to call 394 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:17.519 out positively for what they're getting done and making that 395 00:19:17.640 --> 00:19:20.319 rooted in behaviors. So if all you're doing to your 396 00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:23.000 team is calling out, hey, this is Lorenzo, Let's give 397 00:19:23.039 --> 00:19:25.680 it up for Lorenzo. He had the highest sales last month, right, 398 00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:29.359 he had the highest customer retention last month, then Lorenzo 399 00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:31.160 is always getting called out as the top and now 400 00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:33.480 people below, people who are not as good, think I 401 00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:36.119