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Speaker 2: You are now listening to true Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 2: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 2: written about them Gasey, Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK Every
Speaker 2: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 2: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 2: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 5: Good Evening. The victim was Gary Triano, a Tucson real
Speaker 5: estate developer with influential friends and enemies. After finishing a
Speaker 5: round of golf at a country club, he went to
Speaker 5: the parking lot and found a gift in his car,
Speaker 5: a crudely made pipe bomb that blew him to pieces.
Speaker 5: The bomb maker was Ron Young, a Colorado bad guy
Speaker 5: wanted on weapons and fraud charges. The prosecution claimed that
Speaker 5: the woman he was dating at the time promised to
Speaker 5: pay him four hundred thousand to murder her ex husband.
Speaker 5: Her name was Pamela Phillips, an Aspen socialite, divorcee and
Speaker 5: mother of Trianno's two children. She received two million dollars
Speaker 5: upon his death, but evaded suspicion for more than a decade. Finally,
Speaker 5: half way across the globe in Austria, authorities caught up
Speaker 5: with the Blonde Bombshell, igniting one of the most explosive
Speaker 5: cases in Arizona history. The book they were featuring this
Speaker 5: evening is A Socialite Scorned the Murder of a Tucson
Speaker 5: High Ruler, with my special guest, journalist and author Kelly Drobin.
Speaker 5: Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for
Speaker 5: greening his interview. Kelly Drobin, you much for having me.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much. This is an incredible story. Let's
Speaker 5: get right to how you came to be in a position,
Speaker 5: why you felt compelled, or why you wanted to write
Speaker 5: this book, A social ighte Scorn.
Speaker 6: Well, I was fortunate enough to have gone to law
Speaker 6: school in Tucson, and I had just become a lawyer
Speaker 6: at the time that Gary Triano blew up. And so
Speaker 6: Tucson is a very eclectic sort of It's touted as
Speaker 6: a safe place to live, and it's a much more
Speaker 6: reminiscent of a wild West than of the social lighte scene.
Speaker 6: It's an hour from the Mexican border. It's a good
Speaker 6: town to disappear in. And so when this bombing happened,
Speaker 6: it was sort of like a nine to eleven moment.
Speaker 6: You know, everybody knew where they were when this happened
Speaker 6: because it was so shocking. And so I was a
Speaker 6: lawyer at the time, and in two thousand and five,
Speaker 6: you know, flash forward, Ron Young was named a person
Speaker 6: of interest on America's Most Wanted. It was a show
Speaker 6: that I watched pretty regularly for crime stories. And in
Speaker 6: a strange twist of fate, Jay Dobbins, who was the
Speaker 6: subject of my first book, Running with the Devil, was
Speaker 6: the very close friend of the investigator on the Gary
Speaker 6: Triano case, Detective Gamber, and Detective Gamber had asked him
Speaker 6: to help him orchestrate and America's Most Wanted episode that
Speaker 6: employed people to look out for Ron Young. And so
Speaker 6: when Ron Young was you know, eventually arrested and finishing
Speaker 6: his trial for the murder of Gary Ciano, that's when
Speaker 6: I knew I had to write the story. I was positioned,
Speaker 6: you know, in the location for it. I was living
Speaker 6: in Phoenix at the time, but I was very close
Speaker 6: to Tucson. I knew the bombing. I mean, I had been,
Speaker 6: you know, around when that happened, and it was just,
Speaker 6: you know, it was right. It was an incredible story,
Speaker 6: and I thought, I've got to jump on this. So
Speaker 6: so I had already written two books before I jumped
Speaker 6: on A social life Scorned and you know thought, this
Speaker 6: is a fascinating This is like a writer's dream, you know,
Speaker 6: to go in there in mind the story and be
Speaker 6: able to write it from the point of view of
Speaker 6: basically two sociopaths.
Speaker 5: Absolutely. Now, let's talk about November one, nineteen ninety six,
Speaker 5: as you do the actual bombing murder itself, and you
Speaker 5: describe Gary Triano as a land developer of real estate mogul,
Speaker 5: as you mentioned, just had his fifty third birthday, six
Speaker 5: foot two, two hundred and forty pounds. Tell us where
Speaker 5: he is. We talked about the golf resort. So set
Speaker 5: the stage as you do in this book. You talk
Speaker 5: about the Boro of Lincoln town Car. Set the stage
Speaker 5: as you do in this book. Described this so.
Speaker 6: Gary Triano was he He was a man who liked
Speaker 6: to portray himself as larger than life. He was a
Speaker 6: man who he didn't have well it's it's kind of
Speaker 6: unknown whether he had mafia connections, but he liked to
Speaker 6: portray himself as someone who had mafia connections. He had
Speaker 6: serious money. He was taking private jets to Vegas. He
Speaker 6: was insisting that he'd be called mister t when he was,
Speaker 6: you know, socializing with people he hung out with the
Speaker 6: likes of Donald Trump. He would go to parties and
Speaker 6: events and buy rounds of cocktails for everyone, tipping waitresses
Speaker 6: ridiculous sums of money. He was like a character out
Speaker 6: of a Hollywood movie. And one of the most striking
Speaker 6: things about him, just to set the stage for this
Speaker 6: is his home. Will give you a great indication of
Speaker 6: how he viewed himself. He had portraits of himself in
Speaker 6: his home as Indian chiefs, and everywhere you look bronze
Speaker 6: reliefs of his head. He was just a larger than
Speaker 6: life person. So the murder or when this happened, it
Speaker 6: was almost he led an explosive life, and so he
Speaker 6: had an explosive end. He played golf at the La
Speaker 6: Paloma Golf Resort, which is a pretty swanky place in
Speaker 6: Tucson it was at the time, and he had he
Speaker 6: was kind of a creature of habit, so he had
Speaker 6: a regular tea time and he would go there and
Speaker 6: play golf. And so on the date that this happened,
Speaker 6: he was playing golf, and it was he was on
Speaker 6: his way to his birthday party, which was actually a
Speaker 6: surprise birthday party, but he got into his Lincoln Town car.
Speaker 6: He habitually left the windows down and there was a
Speaker 6: bag like a sack sitting on the passenger seat, and
Speaker 6: he thought it was I mean, this is obviously presumed,
Speaker 6: but he thought it was a birthday gift. So he
Speaker 6: reached over to open it, and that's when his car exploded.
Speaker 6: He exploded, and it was a sensational crime because the explosion,
Speaker 6: it was in broad daylight. There were a ton of witnesses,
Speaker 6: There were people dining at the fancy restaurant right above
Speaker 6: the golf resort, and the explosion was so large that
Speaker 6: there were pieces of the car that landed in the
Speaker 6: swimming pool. There were you know, the car itself is
Speaker 6: still you can still view it's it just it was
Speaker 6: completely pulverized, and Gary Trono himself obviously was pulverized. So
Speaker 6: it was it was a crazy explosion, and it had
Speaker 6: the hallmarks of a mafia hit, and so it started
Speaker 6: this investigation into you know, over thousands of suspects. It
Speaker 6: was one of these these crazy who done it? Case
Speaker 6: of magnitude proportion, so it had a daunting list of
Speaker 6: potential suspects. The timeline for this murder it spanned a
Speaker 6: decade because whenever you have a bomb, it's going to
Speaker 6: bring in multiple jurisdictions, multiple agencies trying to track down,
Speaker 6: you know, the origins of the bomb. Because Gary lived
Speaker 6: this larger than life existence. He had so many enemies
Speaker 6: and so many people that had a motive to kill
Speaker 6: him that it became this this crazy landscape for this
Speaker 6: one detective who, ironically enough, I mean, there are lots
Speaker 6: of ironies whenever you write a true story, but this
Speaker 6: case had a ton of ironies because they detective this
Speaker 6: was his first or second murder case ever in the department,
Speaker 6: and he was almost single handedly tasked with the idea,
Speaker 6: with the job of finding suspect. So it was it
Speaker 6: was just really an incredible crime scene and then an
Speaker 6: incredible investigation that followed. And I should mention too that
Speaker 6: the fact that it happens, I mean, not only do
Speaker 6: you have this explosion in Tucson, which I indicated a
Speaker 6: little bit earlier, is sort of known as this eclectic
Speaker 6: and safe place to live, but it's also the town
Speaker 6: for reputed mobsters who retire there because it's considered the
Speaker 6: sort of open territory among mobsters. So they come and
Speaker 6: they can They used to come and conduct illegal activities
Speaker 6: without violating a hierarchy of organized crime. So you have
Speaker 6: the famous Arizona Republic reporter Don Bowles who was targeted
Speaker 6: in nineteen seventy six by the mafia and he was
Speaker 6: blown up outside also killed in a car bomb outside
Speaker 6: of a hotel. So there were all kinds of you know,
Speaker 6: tentative links to the two kinds of crime, and then
Speaker 6: that sort of set this in motion, as you know,
Speaker 6: perhaps a mob hit.
Speaker 5: You talk about the detective Gamber, James Gamber, you'd only
Speaker 5: been on the force six months and he got this case,
Speaker 5: and he's the sent one of the central figures in
Speaker 5: this story. And you talk about right away the juxtaposition
Speaker 5: with these ATF agents coming into this resort basically with
Speaker 5: the black helmet and the bomb sniffing dogs. So it
Speaker 5: was quite the scene. And you say a suspected terrorist
Speaker 5: strike or a mafia hit, so something that they were
Speaker 5: unaccustomed to. And you talk about right away the Gamber
Speaker 5: and his partner, Sergeant Keith Saint John, and they are
Speaker 5: seeing they're getting reports of vehicles leaving the scene. But
Speaker 5: like you say that there's so many leads, so many
Speaker 5: conflicting reports, and then you talk about Pamela Phillips and
Speaker 5: and you tell a little bit about her background, this
Speaker 5: attractive real estate agent. So tell us a little bit
Speaker 5: about Pamela Phillips and what she's doing before she meets
Speaker 5: Gary Triano.
Speaker 6: Mkay. So, Pamela Phillips is Gary Triano's ex wife. They
Speaker 6: had been divorced, uh couple of years actually before this
Speaker 6: bombing happened. And the way that I like to describe
Speaker 6: Pamela Phillips is, uh, sort of the ware, the real
Speaker 6: person inside the costume she was. And I describe her
Speaker 6: in a book, and I think it's fairly accurate given
Speaker 6: the the evidence that was presented in the case. But
Speaker 6: I describe her as a sociopath. She is a figure
Speaker 6: who used and abused people to get what she wanted,
Speaker 6: and and what she really wanted was money, no matter
Speaker 6: the cost. So case in point, she she marries Gary
Speaker 6: for money, she divorces him over money, and she eventually
Speaker 6: kills him for money. She she felt like a Uh.
Speaker 6: She comes into the marriage, she has two million dollars
Speaker 6: in assets, and so she when she targets Gary, Gary
Speaker 6: at the time had about two million dollars in assets.
Speaker 6: He was involved in the casino world, the Indian gaming
Speaker 6: casino business, and so she believed that she was getting
Speaker 6: into a marriage that was on equal par with her.
Speaker 6: You know, she brought money in, he had money, and
Speaker 6: they were gonna build an empire together. And so what
Speaker 6: eventually happens, and what she learns pretty early on in
Speaker 6: the marriage is that Gary is not what he seems
Speaker 6: or who he seems. In fact, he's embroiled in about
Speaker 6: seventy four lawsuits. He is on the verge of bankruptcy.
Speaker 6: He owes everybody money, he owes his attorney money, ninety
Speaker 6: one thousand dollars to an attorney, he owes sixty eight
Speaker 6: thousand dollars to his mother, thirty thousand dollars to a
Speaker 6: fitness club. He's one point eight million dollars in business
Speaker 6: debts and loans. So he's really not who he seems.
Speaker 6: And so Pamela discovers this, you know, as I said,
Speaker 6: early on in the marriage, and so she feels very
Speaker 6: entitled and very scorned. And that's really the why the
Speaker 6: title of the book is is pretty apropos. So when
Speaker 6: they get divorced, they have a number of fights over
Speaker 6: child support and alimony, and because Gary has filed for
Speaker 6: bankruptcy and he doesn't have the assets that she once
Speaker 6: believed that he had, she is incensed over this and
Speaker 6: she takes him back to court multiple times. But the
Speaker 6: key part of this investigation and why Detective Gamber ultimately
Speaker 6: zeros in on her as a possible suspect, is that
Speaker 6: during the marriage, Gary purchased a life insurance policy and
Speaker 6: he insisted that and the life insurance policy coincidentally is
Speaker 6: worth two million dollars, and he insisted that she'd be
Speaker 6: the beneficiary or the trustee, and his children were the beneficiaries,
Speaker 6: but she was the trustee over that until the children
Speaker 6: reached the age of eighteen, and so the premium for
Speaker 6: the life insurance policy was not paid by Pam. Pam,
Speaker 6: as she always did and very consistent with her character,
Speaker 6: would commission other people to do her bidding. And so
Speaker 6: she had entrusted her good friend Joy Bancroft with the
Speaker 6: task of paying her life insurance premiums. And so Joy
Speaker 6: Bancroft was a person who had over the years loaned
Speaker 6: Pam a lot of money because Pam's one of Pam's
Speaker 6: sicknesses or illnesses is that she always believed she had
Speaker 6: no money, even though she had money and never worked
Speaker 6: a day in her life when she was married to Gary,
Speaker 6: she always believed she was just, you know, impossibly poor.
Speaker 6: So she commissioned Anne Bankrupt to pay the life insurance premiums.
Speaker 6: And so around the time of the bombing, Pam discovered
Speaker 6: that Joy had neglected to pay the premium when it
Speaker 6: was the October premium, and so the life insurance policy
Speaker 6: was going to lapse. So here she had orchestrated this
Speaker 6: murder and expected to recoup what she believed she was
Speaker 6: entitled to. She brought two million into the marriage. She
Speaker 6: believed she was entitled to the two million back and
Speaker 6: she was going to get it no matter the cost.
Speaker 6: And so, you know, her payback was going to be
Speaker 6: the life insurance policy. So when she discovered that Joy
Speaker 6: Bancroft had not paid that premium, she almost went into
Speaker 6: a panic, almost almost drove herself insane, and was on
Speaker 6: the phone trying to get the premium paid, you know,
Speaker 6: trying to have a grace period. And so eventually she
Speaker 6: gets that premium paid and eventually the life insurance policy
Speaker 6: pays out. But that becomes the trigger for a detective Gamber,
Speaker 6: you know, because usually the spouse is the number one
Speaker 6: suspect in a murder case, but this was an unusual case.
Speaker 6: They had been divorced, she lived in Aspen at the time.
Speaker 6: She had already established a different life in Aspen, so
Speaker 6: she wasn't even in into Tucson. She had no proximity
Speaker 6: to Tucson. In fact, she and Gary had this parenting
Speaker 6: plan where Gary would have to fly out to Aspen
Speaker 6: to see the children. The children were sometimes flown from
Speaker 6: Aspen to Tucson. Is very complicated, so she was not
Speaker 6: an immediate suspect because she wasn't even in Tucson, and
Speaker 6: they couldn't fathom how she could possibly have, you know,
Speaker 6: orchestrated a bombing or constructed a bomb. So she was
Speaker 6: very far removed from the actual murder until detective Gamber
Speaker 6: had exhausted a number of leads and kept coming back
Speaker 6: to that life insurance policy.
Speaker 5: You talk about the complication in Gamber in experienced homicide detective,
Speaker 5: but also the amount of leads and also a lot
Speaker 5: of the efforts by her herself to be able to
Speaker 5: be able to stifle the investigation and to complicate this.
Speaker 5: She also talked about the restraining order she had against Gary,
Speaker 5: and she weaved a story about people looking for him,
Speaker 5: wanting him, him sleeping with a loaded gun. Tell us
Speaker 5: a little bit about the story she gave and what
Speaker 5: Gamber heard from her about her husband ex husband.
Speaker 6: She was Pam was very was very crafty, I kind
Speaker 6: of she was almost crazy, like a fox, you know.
Speaker 6: She knew how to keep Detective Gamber at bay. And
Speaker 6: so she was interviewed a multiple number of times. And
Speaker 6: what she did and and and a lot of this
Speaker 6: bore out to be true. She created a story that
Speaker 6: Gary was a wife abuser, that he had a volatile temper,
Speaker 6: that he was involved with he had Mexican deals that
Speaker 6: had gone south, and they fraudulent transactions that created sort
Speaker 6: of death threats. And whether or not those actually panned
Speaker 6: out are you know, I don't know the Detective Gamber
Speaker 6: was ever able to support that.
Speaker 5: But what she.
Speaker 6: Did was she convinced Detective Gamber that Gary had a
Speaker 6: number of enemies, that there were this this Mexican deal
Speaker 6: where almost like a a cartel was was after him
Speaker 6: and had left him death threats. And so Gary started
Speaker 6: to carry a gun and she created a story that
Speaker 6: you know, Gary was sort of paranoid and thinking that
Speaker 6: everybody was following him and had a gun hidden under
Speaker 6: the pillow of his bed, and you know, one night
Speaker 6: had actually held it to her and so she was
Speaker 6: a victim of domestic violence. So that was the portrait
Speaker 6: that she portrayed to Detective Gamber. She also told Gamber
Speaker 6: that Gary had mafia connections and that maybe this was
Speaker 6: a mob hit and he should be investigating, you know,
Speaker 6: those connections or those links, and so over the course
Speaker 6: I mean this, this investigation lasted a decade and Detective
Speaker 6: Gamber would go down various bunny trails, you know, to
Speaker 6: see whether any of them were going to pan out,
Speaker 6: and none of them actually did, but he got calls
Speaker 6: everything from potential mafia hits to health angel connections, you know,
Speaker 6: and he had to investigate every one of them because
Speaker 6: he just you know, you never know until you go
Speaker 6: down those bunny trails whether or not you can eliminate
Speaker 6: them as a witness. So she was very clever in
Speaker 6: doing that and in painting that picture that Gary was
Speaker 6: a volatile person, never paid back his debt a ton
Speaker 6: of people money, and that part was true. He did,
Speaker 6: oh a ton of people money. He did have failed
Speaker 6: business deals. He you know, was involved in casinos and
Speaker 6: things that certainly could have led to people having a
Speaker 6: beef against him. There was another key suspect, and whether
Speaker 6: or not Pam had planted this or this was Detective
Speaker 6: Gamber's own finding. But he became a potential suspect a
Speaker 6: man by the name of Neil MacNeice who was an
Speaker 6: acquaintance of Gary's, and he agreed to purchase an item
Speaker 6: at a charity auction. Neil paid Gary greed to pay
Speaker 6: Neil fifty percent, and they tried to get him to
Speaker 6: go into business together. But eventually Gary asked Neil for
Speaker 6: a loan and he used Pam's wedding ring as collateral.
Speaker 6: And the wedding ring was worth two hundred and thirty
Speaker 6: five thousand dollars and Gary wanted an eighty five thousand
Speaker 6: dollars loan, and so Gary switched the ring and he
Speaker 6: gave Neil a cubic circonia ring, And so there was
Speaker 6: this whole backstory that Neil, you know, Neil potentially had
Speaker 6: a motive to kill Gary because he was obsessed with
Speaker 6: the you know, the bait and switch that Gary had
Speaker 6: done and so were there were all kinds of stories
Speaker 6: like that that Pam concocted to kind of throw Gamber
Speaker 6: off the path. And what was interesting about it was,
Speaker 6: you know, while Detective Gamber is investigating all of these leads,
Speaker 6: you have the the ATF and the other federal agencies
Speaker 6: investigating the bomb. So you know, one part is investigating
Speaker 6: the people, the other part is investigating the actual you know,
Speaker 6: manner of death. The bomb, which which happened to be
Speaker 6: more sophisticated than most. It was unusually long, it was
Speaker 6: stuffed with red dot powder. It was the same kind
Speaker 6: of powder that was used to reload shotgunshelf. It had
Speaker 6: six folt battery lantern, which was very popular in the seventies,
Speaker 6: and so they were trying to get a profile on
Speaker 6: the bomber. So that was what was going on on
Speaker 6: the federal level. So you can imagine all the movable
Speaker 6: parts with all of the various characters involved, and so
Speaker 6: that was I think Gamber's challenge was he was dealing
Speaker 6: with Pam, who was, you know, a very skilled sociopath,
Speaker 6: knew how to use people, knew how to manipulate people,
Speaker 6: and knew how to twist things to serve her own advantage.
Speaker 5: How did she respond to Gamber's polygraph request and what
Speaker 5: did he deduce or what did he say to her
Speaker 5: as a result.
Speaker 6: Well, he had at least I think three interviews with
Speaker 6: Pam over the life insurance policy, and and they're and
Speaker 6: I detail that pretty well in the book because it's
Speaker 6: just so striking her responses to him. She's very evasive
Speaker 6: with his questions. She uh, I can't recall now whether
Speaker 6: she agrees to take a polygraph or not. But Gamber
Speaker 6: basically says to her, you know, it's kind of crime
Speaker 6: investigation one on one. You know, if somebody doesn't agree
Speaker 6: to take polygraph, you know, they're pretty much a suspect
Speaker 6: or they're pretty much guilty. So she's she's very evasive,
Speaker 6: and the whole time that she's being interviewed by Gamber,
Speaker 6: she's deflecting, you know, and basically going back to you know,
Speaker 6: not I wasn't there, I were. We've been divorced. You know,
Speaker 6: Gary's got multiple enemies, and so they're actually almost they're
Speaker 6: almost startlingly feeling about her character and who, you know,
Speaker 6: how she operates.
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Speaker 5: You talk about her niece, Melissa was told by Gary's
Speaker 5: lawyer that he thought Pam Pamela did this, and Melissa
Speaker 5: gave police a list of shady characters authorities should consider.
Speaker 5: Do you also talk about a couple friends that were
Speaker 5: to meet Gary the night before he was murdered, and
Speaker 5: also somebody that set up the golf date. So Detective
Speaker 5: Gamber had his hands filled with trying to investigate this case,
Speaker 5: as you as you mentioned.
Speaker 6: Yes, yeah, and that was actually complicating. The whole thing
Speaker 6: was that there was this surprise party that was planned
Speaker 6: and so as you can imagine the irony of that is,
Speaker 6: the invitations had gone out, and on the invitation it says,
Speaker 6: let's roast Gary, which of course is very ironic since
Speaker 6: he's blown up. So Detective Gamber also had to figure
Speaker 6: out who attended that surprise party, whether there was anybody
Speaker 6: that was held back, you know, whether there were people
Speaker 6: that knew Gary's schedule. And strangely enough, even though Gary
Speaker 6: was a creature of habit, this particular tea, he had
Speaker 6: actually changed his schedule, so somebody would have had to
Speaker 6: have known, you know, who had changed the schedule, and
Speaker 6: so so Detective Gamber had to look at, you know,
Speaker 6: the list of possible suspects or people that might have
Speaker 6: known that might have played with him. You know, Gary
Speaker 6: had a golf partner that played with him, so there
Speaker 6: were there were a number of sort of what I
Speaker 6: call secondary characters that Gamber had to exhaust as possible leads.
Speaker 6: And I think when Melissa gave him the list of players,
Speaker 6: you kind of get a picture of Gary as you know,
Speaker 6: he had he had so many enemies, so many potential people,
Speaker 6: and it sort of comes with the territory of somebody
Speaker 6: who is that connected, that involved in different business deals,
Speaker 6: and also somebody who was, you know, touting himself is
Speaker 6: fairly wealthy, so he was a target not only for
Speaker 6: who he was as a persona, but also for who
Speaker 6: he may have pissed off during his business feelings. So yeah,
Speaker 6: it was a completely exhaustive list, and it went from
Speaker 6: everyone from his CPA to his golf partner.
Speaker 5: You also talk about the investigated Gary's former girlfriend, Robin Gardner,
Speaker 5: and that they had some evidence that at least she
Speaker 5: was a little bit of a person of interest. Tell
Speaker 5: us what they talk to her about and what she
Speaker 5: had said to them.
Speaker 6: Robin Gardner was someone at Gary actually had a child with,
Speaker 6: and Robin was another key player because she also painted
Speaker 6: a picture of Gary being somewhat volatile. There was an
Speaker 6: incident where she threw a vase at Gary. They'd gotten
Speaker 6: into an argument. She had thrown a vase at Gary,
Speaker 6: and there was an insinuation that Gary was trying to
Speaker 6: pay her off or buy her off to keep the
Speaker 6: pregnancy quiet. And so there was a belief that Robin
Speaker 6: may have gone, you know, a little nuts over that deal,
Speaker 6: you know, to keep that pregnancy quiet. So she became
Speaker 6: a person of interest in Gamber and his partner had
Speaker 6: flown down to interview her as well to find out
Speaker 6: a little bit more about Gary and you know, what
Speaker 6: that arrangement might have been and whether she had had
Speaker 6: a motive, And she also had had conversations with Pam.
Speaker 6: It was almost like that had become I don't want
Speaker 6: to say confidence, but you know, they were they were
Speaker 6: sort of having a telephone communication about Gary and about
Speaker 6: how they had both sort of been scorned by him.
Speaker 6: So you know, she became the the woman scorned on
Speaker 6: the opposite side. So it became this really entangled web
Speaker 6: of you know, Gary and his his relationships with business people,
Speaker 6: and Gary and his relationships with his ex wife and
Speaker 6: his girlfriend and you know, whomever else he may have
Speaker 6: been involved with. So it was really a complicated, tangled
Speaker 6: web of you know, people that did head of Gamber
Speaker 6: had to sift through. It was almost like sifting through
Speaker 6: bomb debris, but you know, metaphorically debris from from Gary's
Speaker 6: personal life that had just exploded, and and Gamber had
Speaker 6: to sift through all the you know, all the pieces
Speaker 6: for that too.
Speaker 5: You chronicle the incredible pressure that this detective Gamber is
Speaker 5: under and puts himself under, it seems, but he also
Speaker 5: has the added pressure of hearing from Gary's daughter, Heather.
Speaker 5: So what kind of pressure does have exert on Gamber.
Speaker 6: Well, I think Gamber Gamber probably experiences what a lot
Speaker 6: of homicide detectives might experience, which is just haunted by
Speaker 6: the fact that he cannot solve this case. And what
Speaker 6: happens is Heather is I don't want to say hounds him,
Speaker 6: but Heather is on him for years, you know, why
Speaker 6: can't you find somebody? Why haven't we solved this crime?
Speaker 6: And you know, he's he's just sort of shattered personally
Speaker 6: by this because it's almost it becomes his It's the
Speaker 6: case of his career, certainly, and he puts aside everything.
Speaker 6: He puts aside his personal relationships, his other cases, and
Speaker 6: it becomes his life's quest to solve this case for Heather.
Speaker 6: And so he's actually very close to the family now
Speaker 6: and he's close to Heather. But I think at the
Speaker 6: time he was he was really haunted by this and
Speaker 6: it was his motivating factor. It was almost like he lived, slept, breathed,
Speaker 6: you know, finding the killer, and you know, and so
Speaker 6: as he would develop one lead, Heather would be calling
Speaker 6: him and showing up and saying why, you know, why
Speaker 6: can't we find this person? And and it you know,
Speaker 6: to some degree, I think it really it really ate
Speaker 6: away at Detective Gamber and it really it destroyed him,
Speaker 6: and it left him with this sort of empty feeling.
Speaker 6: You know, if I don't find this person, I will
Speaker 6: have spent a decade of my life, you know, trying
Speaker 6: to solve something. It was. It was the who done
Speaker 6: it of his career, you know, trying to find that out.
Speaker 6: But it was almost an impossible task for or not
Speaker 6: only a new homicide detective, but any homicide detective. It
Speaker 6: would have been an impossible case. And so he was
Speaker 6: like a dog with a bone, you know, I've got
Speaker 6: to find out who did this?
Speaker 5: Now, tell us when, and what are the circumstances in
Speaker 5: they them finding a voyager?
Speaker 6: Then, so Roun Young, and I guess in order to
Speaker 6: back up a bit, I have to explain a little
Speaker 6: bit about who Ron Young was. So, as I explained Pam,
Speaker 6: Pam's modus operende was to use and abuse people. And
Speaker 6: so she got by in life by really aligning herself
Speaker 6: with particular men that she could use and do her bidding.
Speaker 6: And so when she decided that she was going to
Speaker 6: get back at Gary. She didn't quite know how she
Speaker 6: was going to do that yet. She was living in
Speaker 6: Aspen and she was kind of hobnobbing around with the
Speaker 6: ski socialite people. And Ron Young was really a kind
Speaker 6: of a bum up an Aspen, and he was a
Speaker 6: con artist, and he called himself an outfitter, and he
Speaker 6: was almost Pam's mirror self. He was a very except
Speaker 6: that he was very gawky, very socially awkward. But what
Speaker 6: he had in common with Pam was that he aligned
Speaker 6: himself with people that he could use and abuse, and
Speaker 6: so they had a very strange symbiotic relationship where as
Speaker 6: long as he was useful to Pam, he could stay
Speaker 6: in her life, and as long as Pam found him useful,
Speaker 6: she would keep him around. So he became the hit
Speaker 6: man in this case, and she commissioned him to help
Speaker 6: her get rid of what he termed the one hundred
Speaker 6: pound the three hundred pound gorilla. So he determined that
Speaker 6: Pam needed his assistance to help with the Gary problem,
Speaker 6: and she hired him to do that, and so they concocted.
Speaker 6: Over the course of a period of time, they conspired
Speaker 6: together to figure out how they were going to do this. Now,
Speaker 6: it's unclear whether Pam knew that Ron was going to
Speaker 6: use a bomb as the weapon, because they had gone
Speaker 6: and they had tried various things. I mean, I think
Speaker 6: she thought it was going to be a gun or
Speaker 6: a rifle or something, and they had taken a trip
Speaker 6: together to try to purchase that. So Ron kept what's
Speaker 6: really termed as a treasure trove of information. He kept
Speaker 6: every piece of document, every conversation, every fax, every card,
Speaker 6: Everything that he ever had any exchange with Pam he kept.
Speaker 6: And it was so almost like he was a pack rat,
Speaker 6: except it was probably a little bit more diabolical than that.
Speaker 6: He didn't want to be screwed over. So he kept
Speaker 6: the gun that they purchased. It was a sot off shotgun.
Speaker 6: He kept it in a case in a van. He
Speaker 6: kept the postcards that Pam sent him. She actually sent
Speaker 6: him a Hallmark card that said, you know, I'm basically
Speaker 6: to the extent of I'm looking forward to the vision
Speaker 6: of our future. I'm looking forward to being you know,
Speaker 6: having this this completed. I mean, it wasn't a confession,
Speaker 6: but it was tantamount to that. You know, that they
Speaker 6: had colluded together to do this, but he kept that
Speaker 6: every conversation they had there he recorded, and he kept
Speaker 6: all the recordings, and you know, the he had documents
Speaker 6: from Pam's divorce in this van because at one point
Speaker 6: he had gone down to Tucson to kind of scout
Speaker 6: out the assets. This is what he told Pam. But
Speaker 6: he was looking to to find out where Gary might
Speaker 6: have hidden money, you know what, what his hidden assets were.
Speaker 6: So he was down there as a QUASEI investigator and
Speaker 6: he had checked into a hotel down into Sonia had
Speaker 6: stayed for eighteen days. He used the name of a
Speaker 6: dead person to check into the hotel and he was
Speaker 6: sort of stalking Gary for eighteen days. But those that documentation,
Speaker 6: the receipts, the rental car receipts, the divorced documentations, was
Speaker 6: all kept in this van. And so after Ron, I mean,
Speaker 6: there's so much involved in this. But Ron eventually steals
Speaker 6: from Pam, and he steals about three hundred thousand dollars
Speaker 6: from her, and he believes in his mind that he's
Speaker 6: entitled to this because he has quote unquote helped Pam
Speaker 6: with her business, and her business at the time was
Speaker 6: an astrology business. It was called Star Babies, and so
Speaker 6: he believed that he was being helpful to her by
Speaker 6: helping her with her finances, so he took the three
Speaker 6: hundred thousand dollars. Pam reports that, not realizing that Ron
Speaker 6: is the one who is stolen from her, so she
Speaker 6: reports it to Detective Crowley, who's with the Aspen Police Department,
Speaker 6: and as Detective Crowley starts investigating this, she Pam realizes
Speaker 6: that it's Ron who's done this, and so she backs
Speaker 6: off of the fraud investigation. So Crowley is now on
Speaker 6: the hunt for Ron. There's a fraud warrant out for him.
Speaker 6: Ron takes off from Aspen and he goes back to
Speaker 6: yur Belinda, California, which is where his parents live, and strangely,
Speaker 6: he parks this van with all of the paraphernalia from
Speaker 6: his relationship with Pam. He parks it on a street
Speaker 6: that's like a block from his parents in ur of Belinda,
Speaker 6: and he leaves it there and then Ron goes undergrounds.
Speaker 6: It's Tective Crowley is investigating this fraud investigation. He sees
Speaker 6: on the news that there's been a bombing in Tucson
Speaker 6: and the name Ron Young pops up. Or I don't
Speaker 6: even know if it's Ron Young, but it's the bombing
Speaker 6: and there's this investigation, and so he starts to link
Speaker 6: up with he finds this van and he sees information
Speaker 6: in the van that links back to that bombing, and
Speaker 6: so that's when he contacts Detective Gamber and they start
Speaker 6: this whole investigation and they zero in on Ron as
Speaker 6: a potential suspect. So it's a very complicated, convoluted thing,
Speaker 6: but Ron Young is the one that he leads this trail.
Speaker 6: It's almost like a handle and Gretel trail, the popcorn
Speaker 6: that detectives are able to, you know, sort of follow,
Speaker 6: and as the pieces start to fit together, that's how
Speaker 6: they start to zero in on him as a possible suspect.
Speaker 5: We're going to use this, Kelly as an opportunity to
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Speaker 5: about the law closing in on Ron Young and Pamela,
Speaker 5: But meanwhile, you talk about in the book, very very
Speaker 5: fascinating this years of this investigation going on, but the
Speaker 5: relationship between Ron Young and Pamela Phillips and their correspondence,
Speaker 5: So as you do in the book, tell us about
Speaker 5: some of the conversations and the deteriorating relationship that they
Speaker 5: have over the years.
Speaker 6: And why sure, this was a fascinating kind of a
Speaker 6: bird's eye view into the minds of two sociopaths that
Speaker 6: were very similar in character, I believe, even though they
Speaker 6: probably didn't realize that. But so what happens is, you know,
Speaker 6: pam hires Ron, and I should say that the strange
Speaker 6: part about this case is that while Ron records everything,
Speaker 6: has every conversation, every email, everything saved. The one conversation
Speaker 6: that he does not record is the conversation where the
Speaker 6: two of them actually conspire to murder Gary Triana, and
Speaker 6: that was the subject of the trial and just how
Speaker 6: strange that was that that is not recorded. So that's
Speaker 6: all sort of a supposition. But what happens is Pam
Speaker 6: hires Ron to murder Gary, and she tells him, you know,
Speaker 6: I've got this two million dollar life insurance policy. I'm
Speaker 6: going to pay you four hundred thousand dollars to do this,
Speaker 6: and we're going to be done. What she doesn't realize,
Speaker 6: and perhaps what Ron doesn't realize, is that you can't
Speaker 6: just write somebody a check for four hundred thousand dollars
Speaker 6: and be done with it, because it's going to be traceable.
Speaker 6: So they wind up in this crazy situation where Pam
Speaker 6: has to figure out how she's going to pay him,
Speaker 6: and so every week they have this dialogue where Ron says,
Speaker 6: you know, I want you to send did you send
Speaker 6: me my stuff? Did you send me my things? They
Speaker 6: never quite name it, but he's got codes for everything,
Speaker 6: and so he tries to educate her on how to
Speaker 6: communicate in code. So he's got these elaborate coded emails
Speaker 6: that he thinks are going to disguise his whereabouts, and
Speaker 6: Pam's emails are very telling it, you know, things like
Speaker 6: pamphillips Meadow, Aspen at yahoo dot com, you know, and
Speaker 6: so it's almost like a telegraph, you know, here I am,
Speaker 6: come get me. So Ron is very frustrated with her
Speaker 6: inability to understand how to be undercover. So that's the
Speaker 6: first problem. The second problem is he'll he'll email her
Speaker 6: and he'll say, you know, did you get me my stuff?
Speaker 6: I need sixteen or I need fourteen, And so what
Speaker 6: that means in code language Pam is she has to
Speaker 6: get him sixteen hundred dollars or fourteen hundred dollars. And
Speaker 6: the way that she has to do this is so
Speaker 6: convoluted because you can't just again, you can't just write
Speaker 6: a check. So she has to do this elaborate thing
Speaker 6: where she she'll go to the grocery store, she'll get
Speaker 6: three hundred dollars cash back, and so that'll be part
Speaker 6: of the sixteen hundred she's going to send he Ron.
Speaker 6: So she's doing that, then she's going to five different banks,
Speaker 6: taking very small increments out of time. So nobody can
Speaker 6: trace her. Then she drives from Aspen to this little
Speaker 6: town called the Salt, which is about twenty miles away.
Speaker 6: She has to drive there in snow and ice conditions.
Speaker 6: She goes to a FedEx drop box. She has to
Speaker 6: use a dead person's name to send it, so you know,
Speaker 6: she's confused. At one point she says to Ron, I
Speaker 6: don't understand I'm a dead person. My sender and receiver
Speaker 6: are the same name. So she's very confused by the
Speaker 6: whole logistics of getting him money. And meanwhile, when she
Speaker 6: sends this money to him, she then has to tell him,
Speaker 6: you know this stuff has been sent. I sent it
Speaker 6: on Saturday. So sometimes she misses the sendate and Ron
Speaker 6: gets angry and you know, contacts her and says, you know,
Speaker 6: you missed my delivery, my Saturday delivery. So meanwhile, Ron
Speaker 6: is living as a mole. He's living underground. He doesn't
Speaker 6: have a driver's license, you know, can't get a job,
Speaker 6: can barely rent a place. But he's living in an
Speaker 6: apartment or a hotel room in Florida. And he has
Speaker 6: to take a taxi to a money order place to
Speaker 6: pick up his money. So he's living in this very sparse,
Speaker 6: almost invisible existence for a very long time, and so
Speaker 6: Pam over the course of time, really starts to lose
Speaker 6: her mind. She starts to go crazy because she doesn't
Speaker 6: want to have this connection anymore to Ron, and she's
Speaker 6: living in this state of hypervigilance and fear because you know,
Speaker 6: each communication she has with him is another opportunity for
Speaker 6: the law to come down on her. So she will
Speaker 6: try things, you know, where she won't communicate with him
Speaker 6: for a couple of weeks, and then it makes Ron
Speaker 6: completely paranoid and crazy, and he starts communicating more. So
Speaker 6: then they have these exchanges where they're just they're perpetually
Speaker 6: locked in their own prison. Which is the biggest irony
Speaker 6: of this story is that she does this for money
Speaker 6: because she thinks money is going to free her. Ron
Speaker 6: does it for money because he thinks money is going
Speaker 6: to free him, and yet they wind up locked together
Speaker 6: forever in this almost horrific parody of a marriage where
Speaker 6: they cannot get rid of each other. They can't go
Speaker 6: a day without communicating with each other, and they have
Speaker 6: to communicate about the same subject over and over, and
Speaker 6: if one of them tries to leave the other, one
Speaker 6: holds it over them. So it's almost like this not
Speaker 6: only a prison, but almost like a blackmail situation. And
Speaker 6: so at one point Ron uses that leverage on her
Speaker 6: and he says, you know, I have so much stuff
Speaker 6: on you that you're going to wind up in a
Speaker 6: woman's prison one day. I'm going to bury you. And
Speaker 6: so that's the one conversation or recording that nails them both,
Speaker 6: that links them and nails them, and so yeah, so
Speaker 6: neither one of them has the freedom that they wanted,
Speaker 6: and it really is is sort of it's an interesting
Speaker 6: explose in what happens to people that are so greedy,
Speaker 6: that live their life dictated and motivated by money.
Speaker 5: It's incredible the exchange that they have at some point
Speaker 5: because there's so many delays, and because she's constantly complaining
Speaker 5: about having no money and having to deal with their kids,
Speaker 5: and again the prospect of having no money is such
Speaker 5: a great fear. But then he has prostate cancer and
Speaker 5: is basically incredibly dependent on whether on those payments being
Speaker 5: timely because he has major surgeries and cancer treatment that
Speaker 5: he can't be late with payments. Incredible exchange between these
Speaker 5: two people and she after he pleads with her basically,
Speaker 5: which wasn't his first approach. He doesn't send the money.
Speaker 6: Right, right, and she did. And that's another interesting aspect
Speaker 6: of this because you know, underlying this relationship is always
Speaker 6: this this this sense with Pam that if he would
Speaker 6: just go away, if he would just die, I'd be free,
Speaker 6: you know. And so she does have incredible power and
Speaker 6: control over his life at this point because Ron has
Speaker 6: to get surgery in Mexico because he can't go to
Speaker 6: a hospital in the United States and be detected. So
Speaker 6: it's very complicated for him to actually get the procedure
Speaker 6: done and for him to have the cash that he
Speaker 6: needs to be able to get it done. So he
Speaker 6: is very dependent on her. And while he's spiraling, and again,
Speaker 6: you know, if you want to look at it metaphorically,
Speaker 6: he's literally being eaten up, eaten from the inside out
Speaker 6: because the cancer is getting to him. So the stress
Speaker 6: of being connected to her, the stress of living like
Speaker 6: this mole is getting him as literally killing him. And
Speaker 6: now she has the power to literally let him die off,
Speaker 6: you know. So now she'll have two murders on her head.
Speaker 6: So that's that's almost her ticket out, is to be
Speaker 6: able to let go and just let him be released.
Speaker 6: And meanwhile, what she's experiencing is even weirder, where she
Speaker 6: feels like this need to have this sort of catharsis,
Speaker 6: you know, clear her energy space. She's very much into
Speaker 6: Vedic astrology at this point. She's spending thousands of dollars
Speaker 6: going abroad, going to Peru, going to India to try
Speaker 6: to get healing treatments so that she can heal her
Speaker 6: inner core. And at one point, in another ironic sort
Speaker 6: of you know, life imitates art moment, she gets she
Speaker 6: gets a little bit disfigured on her face, and so
Speaker 6: she goes overseas to try to get healed, to try
Speaker 6: to get this you know whatever her skin imperfection is
Speaker 6: off of her face, and she can't do it, and
Speaker 6: so she's living with almost the you know, when she
Speaker 6: looks in the mirror, she sees herself becoming uglier and uglier.
Speaker 6: And so it's really an interesting, again, an interesting expoisan
Speaker 6: what not only what greed can do to a person,
Speaker 6: but what it can do to live with a secret
Speaker 6: that the two of them share. They are bonded forever
Speaker 6: over the secret that they have conspire to murder another person.
Speaker 6: So you know, I guess it's the ultimate story of
Speaker 6: crime doesn't pay, because ultimately you're going to either die
Speaker 6: from the stress, die from the fear, you know, or
Speaker 6: die from the prison sense itself. So I think in
Speaker 6: a lot of ways, especially I think for pam when
Speaker 6: she finally does get arrested, it's almost a relief because
Speaker 6: now she can stop living the fly, she can stop running.
Speaker 6: She's caught, and she can finally just sort of be
Speaker 6: this crazy person that she's become and be left alone
Speaker 6: in a cell. And it's a very interesting portrait of
Speaker 6: what happens to the human condition when they're put in
Speaker 6: these extreme situations.
Speaker 5: You also talk about the added pressure for both of
Speaker 5: them in that she invites Heather to her home to
Speaker 5: live with her, and he is cautioning her that she's
Speaker 5: going to read these articles and these articles in certain
Speaker 5: newspapers we're pointing to Ron and Pamela in not favorable
Speaker 5: light whatsoever, so that if she were to read these articles,
Speaker 5: there would be completely different attitude they thought, both of them.
Speaker 5: And yet that was the added pressure as well. Now
Speaker 5: as you do you talk about we get back to
Speaker 5: America's Most Wanted and what the producers and the police
Speaker 5: met as a result. This was produced in February first,
Speaker 5: two thousand and five, but it was aired November nineteenth,
Speaker 5: two thousand and five. So tell us as a result
Speaker 5: what happened, and tell us about the arrest of Ron.
Speaker 6: Young well a in a in another ironic uh life
Speaker 6: imitates art moment, whenever you have people that are creatures
Speaker 6: of habit, this is ultimately what nails Ron I mean lives.
Speaker 6: He lives this very uh invisible life. And yet one
Speaker 6: of the things that he insists on is his weekly
Speaker 6: chiropractor appointments. And so he had these uh standing appointments
Speaker 6: and each time he went, he would take a taxi,
Speaker 6: he would take his briefcase which contained his gun and
Speaker 6: you know, his most precious, precious possessions, and he would
Speaker 6: go in and he would have his chiropractor appointment. But
Speaker 6: what happened was he stopped paying his chiropractor. And so
Speaker 6: when America Most Wanted aired, you know it was it
Speaker 6: was a brilliant move on Detective Gamber's part, and it
Speaker 6: was also executed in a way that I think it's
Speaker 6: sort of unprecedented for that show. And it really happened
Speaker 6: as a result of the connection he had with Jay
Speaker 6: Dobbins and all of the media attention that Jay Dobbins
Speaker 6: was getting for the Health Angels case, and so they
Speaker 6: were able to get it aired on the show quickly.
Speaker 6: And because of the national attention that I got, the
Speaker 6: chiropractor's office and his chiropractors saw this, saw the you
Speaker 6: know the episode, contacted America's most wanted and said he's
Speaker 6: my client and by the way, he hasn't paid my
Speaker 6: bill and and ps he has an appointment scheduled, and
Speaker 6: so they were able to come in and arrest him
Speaker 6: at his scheduled appointment based on that tip and that lead.
Speaker 5: No, how do they proceed once they have him in custody?
Speaker 5: What's his demeanor like? And how does he approach this?
Speaker 5: How do both parties approach this interview?
Speaker 1: Well?
Speaker 6: Ron is Interestingly enough, Ron's interview with investigators I think
Speaker 6: is very similar to Pam's interview with Detective Gamber when
Speaker 6: she's being interviewed about you know, whether or not she's
Speaker 6: going to take a polygraph, whether or not she had
Speaker 6: any involvement in this. They're both very evasive. Ron however,
Speaker 6: has an added twist in that his big thing in
Speaker 6: life because Remember, he's lived this invisible existence for a while,
Speaker 6: and this is very counter to his personality because he
Speaker 6: likes to take credit for things. He wants people to
Speaker 6: know that he's the one that orchestrated this, that he's
Speaker 6: the one that you know, is the mastermind in things.
Speaker 6: And so he goes into this elaborate detail with the
Speaker 6: detectives about how you know, he's a gun efficient, he's
Speaker 6: like either sold you know, things to high powered people.
Speaker 6: He paints himself up as this almost larger than life
Speaker 6: character and it's it's almost to the point of ridiculousness,
Speaker 6: and it gets him in trouble because prior to him
Speaker 6: being arrested for this case, he's he's arrested and in
Speaker 6: custody with a cellmate who becomes a key player in
Speaker 6: this case, and the cellmate, Andre Mim, is sort of
Speaker 6: known as the jailhouse lawyer. Ron starts to blab and
Speaker 6: brag to Andre Mim about how he orchestrated a bombing.
Speaker 6: He doesn't go into great detail about who it was,
Speaker 6: but he says, you know, I'm the one that did that,
Speaker 6: and he insinuates that he's the one that may have
Speaker 6: been involved in another bombing in Colorado. So he creates
Speaker 6: this larger than life profile for himself, which ultimately is
Speaker 6: his undoing because he has to be recognized. You know,
Speaker 6: he doesn't want to live in this mole existence anymore,
Speaker 6: and this is his opportunity to shine. So that's his undoing,
Speaker 6: is his sort of braggadocio profiler persona with the detective
Speaker 6: that is not only bizarre but also kind of nails
Speaker 6: his coffin.
Speaker 5: You talk about that, the detective O'Connor along with his
Speaker 5: partner cos they said that they asked him if he
Speaker 5: had watched the show America's Most Wanted and he smiled slightly.
Speaker 5: He said, so they really understood going in beforehand how
Speaker 5: to play this guy and to play to.
Speaker 6: His ego, right, Yeah, yeah, he was a complete egomaniac.
Speaker 6: He needed to have credit, He needed to be the
Speaker 6: one that was in the spotlight and the limelight. And
Speaker 6: I suppose that's the reason that he kept this treasure
Speaker 6: trove of information not only as a way to blackmail Pam,
Speaker 6: but also as a way to make sure that everybody
Speaker 6: knew he was the intelligent one. He was the mastermind
Speaker 6: behind all of this.
Speaker 5: And so how do they get to the core of
Speaker 5: Pamela's involvement in this in their husband's murder.
Speaker 6: Well, they had to first, you know, they found Ron's computer,
Speaker 6: which again is strangely left behind and with all of
Speaker 6: the files that he has with Pam. So some of
Speaker 6: the files are they'll say, before doomsday, you know, and
Speaker 6: so he keeps copious records where he's communicating with Pam.
Speaker 6: And so the detectives have to go through these thousands
Speaker 6: of audio recordings and the computer files in order to
Speaker 6: sh try to link these two together. They link them financially,
Speaker 6: they have a forensic financial person come in and sort
Speaker 6: of track the money. They link them through the recordings.
Speaker 6: They link them through one recording in in particular, which
Speaker 6: is where they're talking or Ron talks about you know,
Speaker 6: you'll you'll find yourself or when you're sitting in a
Speaker 6: woman's prison. You know, they're gonna find all of this stuff,
Speaker 6: or they're they'll find all of the secrets that have
Speaker 6: been buried. And so they start to piece it together
Speaker 6: because the one thing that Ron was pretty clever about is,
Speaker 6: you know, he had this coded language with Pam. So
Speaker 6: they they had a lot of circumstantial evidence, but they
Speaker 6: didn't have anything necessarily the smoking gun, and so, you know,
Speaker 6: so they they pieced it together and they and these
Speaker 6: were the very these were the few audio recordings that
Speaker 6: actually exposed it, because again, Ron needed to be recognized.
Speaker 6: He didn't he wasn't gonna go down, you know, the
Speaker 6: down with the flagship and not be known that she
Speaker 6: also involved. So that's how they wind up piecing it
Speaker 6: together and sort of linking her back to that. It's
Speaker 6: a process of sifting through a lot of this information
Speaker 6: because you I mean, the thing that they were stumped
Speaker 6: about was how did she do this because she wasn't
Speaker 6: a bomb maker, you know, she was more bombshell than bombmaker.
Speaker 6: How did she orchestrate this from Aspen? And what was
Speaker 6: her motive? I mean, the motive I think was pretty obvious.
Speaker 6: It was money. But you know, there were all of
Speaker 6: these sort of movable parts as they were trying to
Speaker 6: piece it together and find her. And then of course
Speaker 6: by this time, she had already disappeared to Europe. She
Speaker 6: had some at least one child in Europe at the time,
Speaker 6: and so they believed that she had gone to maybe
Speaker 6: visit with her child, but she winds up falling right
Speaker 6: back into the lifestyle that she had been so successful
Speaker 6: at in the United States. She finds a wealthy man
Speaker 6: in Austria and starts living in sort of a penthouse lifestyle,
Speaker 6: which again is very unusual because you would think she'd
Speaker 6: want to go underground, but she didn't. And so things
Speaker 6: start to to circulate in through the international channel. So
Speaker 6: Inner Pol picks up a bulletin on her, and ironically enough,
Speaker 6: she is caught in a very similar fashion to Ron
Speaker 6: because her limousine driver turns her in. She doesn't pay
Speaker 6: her limousine driver, and so she's sort of wanted for
Speaker 6: petty theft over there. And so when that catches up
Speaker 6: to the Inner Pol bulletin, now they've got their suspect,
Speaker 6: and so they capture her in Vienna and they keep
Speaker 6: her in Vienna. And the complication for the case in
Speaker 6: the United States is they originally the mac County wants
Speaker 6: the death penalty, so they won't extradite as long as
Speaker 6: there's the death penalty in place. So they had quite
Speaker 6: you know, another couple of years where they could bring
Speaker 6: her over. They had they had extradition proceedings, and then
Speaker 6: eventually they they dropped the death penalty, and so she
Speaker 6: winds up coming over, but even more complicated than that.
Speaker 6: Originally Pema County, it Tourneys office, wasn't going to prosecute.
Speaker 6: It was almost an insurmountable odd you know, to get
Speaker 6: her over here and to you know, build the case
Speaker 6: against Pam. And so the children begin, Gary's children and
Speaker 6: Robin's child come together in a civil lawsuit and they
Speaker 6: win in a civil lawsuit. It's a wrongful death civil lawsuit.
Speaker 6: They win ten million dollars, so all of Pam's assets
Speaker 6: are frozen. And because they win on the civil case,
Speaker 6: that drives the criminal case. And it's almost this this
Speaker 6: theory that you know, Pema County is not going to
Speaker 6: They're not. They have to prosecute. Now there's no way
Speaker 6: that you know, they can lose, so they can, the
Speaker 6: civil case can win, and then there's no criminal case,
Speaker 6: no companion criminal case. So that's what kind of fuels it.
Speaker 6: And then they they bring her over after they drop
Speaker 6: the death penalty. So very complicated case all the way around.
Speaker 5: You talk about the trial, tell us a little bit
Speaker 5: more about the very first attempt to question Pamela about this.
Speaker 6: Well, you mean, when she's over in the United States, jail.
Speaker 2: Yes, she.
Speaker 6: Plays the insanity card, and whether or not she's actually crazy,
Speaker 6: I mean, I do believe there's evidence that she begins
Speaker 6: to lose her mind as the case unravels. You know,
Speaker 6: she clearly she's living in a home in Aspen where
Speaker 6: she believes there are now bats in the walls, you know,
Speaker 6: flying through the home. So she's clearly got some delusions
Speaker 6: at this point. But whether or not she's incoonfidence to
Speaker 6: the point where she can't stand trial as a whole
Speaker 6: other you know theory. But so she presents herself as
Speaker 6: she's mentally ill, she doesn't know what's going on, she's
Speaker 6: completely innocent, no idea why she's incarcerated, and so her
Speaker 6: defense team has to take her through Rule eleven competency proceedings,
Speaker 6: and so she's tied up in competency proceedings for a
Speaker 6: number at least a year while before they can even
Speaker 6: bring her to stand trial. So, you know, she's really
Speaker 6: pretty delusional when she's talking to her lawyers. But you know,
Speaker 6: you always wonder is it crazy like a fox again
Speaker 6: or is she really delusional? So they had to kind
Speaker 6: of sift through that before they could actually bring her
Speaker 6: to trial.
Speaker 5: And what about Ron's young's deteriorating health. What's the state
Speaker 5: of that by this time.
Speaker 6: By this time he has he's gotten the procedure that
Speaker 6: he needs. He's clearly in recovery mode. He goes to
Speaker 6: trial and he's convicted, of course, and he's winding up
Speaker 6: in the appellate process, but he gets a The judge
Speaker 6: sentences him to double consecutive life sentences, which is actually
Speaker 6: an illegal sentence, and so on appeal it's corrected and
Speaker 6: it's still a life sentence, but it can't you know,
Speaker 6: the judge was just so incensed at the end of
Speaker 6: the trial that he was trying to give him, you know,
Speaker 6: the maximum maximum that you could possibly get, because it
Speaker 6: was such a heinous crime and it's left such a
Speaker 6: human debris in the making.
Speaker 5: Now her trial, when does it begin? And what is
Speaker 5: the media response. We haven't talked about the media response
Speaker 5: to this story except in just in the introduction that
Speaker 5: this is a big story. So tell us what the
Speaker 5: media response is at the beginning of her trial. Tell
Speaker 5: us how it's framed.
Speaker 6: Are you talking about the I mean, she's her story
Speaker 6: is profiled. It's just splattered all over the press. Everyone's
Speaker 6: followed the story, particularly in Tucson, and so the first
Speaker 6: boy by defense lawyers is moving the venue because there's
Speaker 6: no way she's going to get a fair trial with
Speaker 6: you know, all of the media attention that's been put
Speaker 6: on her case. She's already been profiled not only in
Speaker 6: my book, but in a number of television shows. She's
Speaker 6: on Dateline, so her whole story is out there before
Speaker 6: she even goes to trial. So that's a pro for
Speaker 6: the defense team as they try to build their case
Speaker 6: and make sure that she gets a fair trial. Then
Speaker 6: courtroom itself is a circus. When I attended even Ron
Speaker 6: Young's trial, it was a circus. It was a very
Speaker 6: interesting scenario for me because I'm also a defense lawyer,
Speaker 6: so and I practice up in Maricopa County, and it's
Speaker 6: very different. I don't know if this is a typical
Speaker 6: thing or if this is just for their trial, But
Speaker 6: the whole courtroom was cordoned off with sections. So the
Speaker 6: victim's family attended almost every day of trial at Ron's trial,
Speaker 6: and I have no doubt that they did that at
Speaker 6: Pam's trial as well. But the whole, almost the entire
Speaker 6: courtroom was reserved for them. It was a very large family,
Speaker 6: and then there was a piece of it reserved for
Speaker 6: the press and for cameras and journalists, and then there
Speaker 6: was a very very almost standing room only for any
Speaker 6: public person that wanted to come in. So it was
Speaker 6: an unusual setting in that regard. It almost reminded me
Speaker 6: a little bit of the Jodiarius trial up in Phoenix
Speaker 6: that happened recently. But so I think for Pam to
Speaker 6: get any type of you know, I think that was
Speaker 6: the concern of the defenses. Are we going to get
Speaker 6: a fair trial for Pam because it's just so everybody
Speaker 6: already has an opinion formed on this, you know, I
Speaker 6: imagine trying to pick a jury for that, and then
Speaker 6: they had to come up with a different defense obviously
Speaker 6: than than Ron's.
Speaker 5: You talk about some of the witnesses and what they
Speaker 5: contributed to this, and you talk about Heather tell us
Speaker 5: just some of the highlights of some of the testimony
Speaker 5: that really put the nail in the coffin for her.
Speaker 6: Pamela, Well, I mean, she had people coming out of
Speaker 6: the woodwork. She had a witness who did not appear
Speaker 6: in Ron's trial, and I cannot recall her name now.
Speaker 6: She was a woman that worked with Pam, who was
Speaker 6: a friend of hers, and she came out of the
Speaker 6: woodwork for Pam's trial, and they brought her in almost
Speaker 6: as a surprise witness at the end, and she took
Speaker 6: the stand and said, you know, this was something that
Speaker 6: she believed Pam had orchestrated this because it was a
Speaker 6: conversation that they had had years earlier. And so she
Speaker 6: became sort of the smoking gun for the prosecution where
Speaker 6: she just came out there and said, yeah, you know,
Speaker 6: Pam and I had this conversation. And so I think
Speaker 6: that was a surprise to Pam, certainly because they could
Speaker 6: find her. There were also a number of nannies that
Speaker 6: testified that I think sealed Pam's coffin and Ron's coffin,
Speaker 6: but more so Pam's obviously were one in particular, Kevin
Speaker 6: McDonald testified that that Pam was absolutely living the life
Speaker 6: of a social lighte was, you know, had probably more
Speaker 6: than just a business relationship with Ron. That she was
Speaker 6: that Ron was against type. It didn't make sense that
Speaker 6: she was with Ron because she normally went for the
Speaker 6: very attractive, swanky, rich, wealthy men and Ron was not that.
Speaker 6: So that also cast suspicion on that, so it was
Speaker 6: it was interesting. And then they they brought in you know,
Speaker 6: there the defense for Pam was that it was Neil
Speaker 6: McNeice that you know, was actually the killer, so they
Speaker 6: they cast light on that and and Gary's dealings with
Speaker 6: Neil McNeese, so there was it was a different case.
Speaker 6: Pam's case was different than Ron's, but but certainly more involved.
Speaker 5: And what was her demeanor during this trial?
Speaker 6: She The only way really to describe her she I mean,
Speaker 6: you have to kind of have a before and after
Speaker 6: portrait of her. I mean, she was obviously known in
Speaker 6: the Aspen circles as a socialite, which meant she was always,
Speaker 6: you know, very classically dressed, you know, a beautiful woman.
Speaker 6: She was highlighted, actually her home was highlighted in one
Speaker 6: of the the papers up in in Aspen. So you
Speaker 6: take that and you contrast it with her look in
Speaker 6: the courtroom. So she was kind of dumpy looking, you know,
Speaker 6: obviously no makeup. She looked very much like, uh would
Speaker 6: call it, like a frenetic bird, not really seeming to
Speaker 6: understand what was going on in the courtroom. Whether that
Speaker 6: was an act or not, it remains to be seen.
Speaker 6: The interesting thing about Pam and there was one story
Speaker 6: where someone had described her. It was very early on
Speaker 6: in her divorce to Gary, where you know, you take
Speaker 6: this woman that's dressed to the nines, very well put together,
Speaker 6: would never be seen without you know, makeup and dulled up.
Speaker 6: But she arrives at the courthouse dressed very frumpy, very dowdy,
Speaker 6: her hair in a bun, sensible shoes, sort of a
Speaker 6: dress that made her look like a bag. This was
Speaker 6: her demeanor in court. So it was almost like she
Speaker 6: was chameleon like. She would dress the part and so
Speaker 6: or other people would like to surmise that that was
Speaker 6: actually her true character. It was sort of a like
Speaker 6: the old story of the witch, you know, the witch
Speaker 6: who's was coming out out of her her magic spell,
Speaker 6: and this is.
Speaker 2: What she looks like.
Speaker 6: Really, So that was always the thought I had when
Speaker 6: I saw her in the courtroom, that this was actually
Speaker 6: the real Pam, the sort of crazed sociopathic figure, not
Speaker 6: the glamorized woman that she played, not the part that
Speaker 6: she played. So the real Pam was sitting in the courtroom.
Speaker 5: What about Pamela's family at trial, What was the reaction
Speaker 5: to all of this, the hearing of everything, the.
Speaker 6: You know, I didn't have a whole lot of contact
Speaker 6: with Pam's family, but one common denominator about that is
Speaker 6: they were not surprised. There was enough in Pam's past
Speaker 6: to have made what occurred consistent in her life. So
Speaker 6: I don't think that there was this sort of indignant
Speaker 6: shock and awe uh feeling. I think it was almost like,
Speaker 6: you know, we're not surprised.
Speaker 5: What was the result, what was the end result, and
Speaker 5: what was the media response.
Speaker 6: The end result to Pam's is she sentenced to natural
Speaker 6: life without the possibility of parole, and so she was
Speaker 6: convicted of murder and conspiracy to commit murder. And the
Speaker 6: media I think has responded probably the way that I
Speaker 6: would expect them to respond, which is, you know, she
Speaker 6: m she got what she deserved. This was a sensational case.
Speaker 6: This was an investigation that destroyed so many people's lives,
Speaker 6: and I I think I would say, including the detectives,
Speaker 6: you know, and this was a career building case and
Speaker 6: a career ending case. He retired after this, and I
Speaker 6: think it just it left, you know, the family destroyed.
Speaker 6: Nobody came out a winner in this, and so I
Speaker 6: think it was one of those cases that you know,
Speaker 6: people come back to again and again, and certainly this
Speaker 6: program has is because it's really an interesting insight into
Speaker 6: what happens to people when you know, it's almost like
Speaker 6: be careful what you wish for, you know, you know,
Speaker 6: the two of them murdered for money and wound up poppers,
Speaker 6: and they wound up in a prison of their own making,
Speaker 6: and so so you know, was it worth it? No?
Speaker 6: You know, it just it led to this path of
Speaker 6: destruction that you know, now they both kind of got
Speaker 6: what they deserved.
Speaker 5: And it didn't but it didn't help the reputation very much.
Speaker 5: So the victim sometimes is rehabilitated in death or at
Speaker 5: least spared or some sympathy allotted him. But this wasn't
Speaker 5: good for the victim's reputation whatsoever, this entire thing, was it.
Speaker 6: No, And that's really the interesting part of this case.
Speaker 6: I think in a lot of in really probably most
Speaker 6: murder cases, you have a sympathetic victim, and you have
Speaker 6: this sort of sense of you know, when the killer's
Speaker 6: caught and sentenced and the case is over, you have
Speaker 6: this sense of almost like okay, now I can move
Speaker 6: on with my life. Now I've got some kind of closure,
Speaker 6: some kind of piece. In this case, it's very unsettling
Speaker 6: because you have a victim who you know, he may
Speaker 6: have been larger than life and very dynamic and very
Speaker 6: magnetic personality, but hard to say whether he was sympathetic
Speaker 6: or well liked. He was, you know, embroiled in a
Speaker 6: lot of stuff, a lot of illegal activity, and he
Speaker 6: did some not very nice things and I think that
Speaker 6: all of that got highlighted in this very public arena.
Speaker 6: And so yeah, that is one of the strange things
Speaker 6: about this case and why I actually chose to write
Speaker 6: it from the point of view of the two sociopaths,
Speaker 6: because there wasn't It's not a typical case where you
Speaker 6: have the profile of the victim and you bring out
Speaker 6: that sort of sympathy and emotional reaction in the reader
Speaker 6: or the audience or the people watch in this case,
Speaker 6: so you have to decide how you're going to approach it.
Speaker 6: And so yeah, in the end of the day, it
Speaker 6: almost leaves you sort of hollow, and you.
Speaker 5: Do talk about again, it's not a happy ending for
Speaker 5: Detective James gamber In any way. There's no celebration on
Speaker 5: his part. It is as you describe in the book.
Speaker 5: I'm not describing your actual words, but you say something
Speaker 5: that this is not just an obsession or this is
Speaker 5: not just a job, this is a sickness that he has.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I mean it becomes this sort of you know,
Speaker 6: at the end of the day, he's invested so much
Speaker 6: time and energy and so much of himself in, you know,
Speaker 6: just solving this and getting some closure. And I think
Speaker 6: what's very striking about it, and what maybe many homicide
Speaker 6: detectments could relate to, is you really never get closure.
Speaker 6: There isn't any such thing, and a lot of this
Speaker 6: as the human toll on everybody who participates in an
Speaker 6: investigation like this is just you know, it's really indescribable.
Speaker 6: And so I think that you know, Gamber has to
Speaker 6: find a way to come to terms with that. I mean,
Speaker 6: he wasn't even recognized in his own department, you know,
Speaker 6: And I mean he didn't even get the accolades or
Speaker 6: the credit that he deserved. I think I describe in
Speaker 6: the book there's an awards ceremony that's given and he
Speaker 6: doesn't even want to attend. You know, there's nothing rewarding
Speaker 6: about it. It just sort of took a toll on everybody.
Speaker 5: We didn't mention, but you had. This was an incredible
Speaker 5: task for you too, with the warehouse as you mentioned,
Speaker 5: of evidence, graphic scene photos, graphic crime scene photos, hundreds
Speaker 5: of hours of interviews with potential suspects, thousands of pages
Speaker 5: of police reports, volumes of financial records, Bob the bomb debris.
Speaker 5: You had eleven thousand emails that you have to look
Speaker 5: at or consider. This was a big investigation on your
Speaker 5: part as well, wasn't this.
Speaker 6: Yes, this was a really an astronomical undertaking because if
Speaker 6: you can imagine I was, I was a full time
Speaker 6: lawyer during this writing of this book. I was a
Speaker 6: capital lawyer, so I was doing death penalty work. I
Speaker 6: had to be careful because I didn't want to expose things.
Speaker 6: I mean, I was almost like a legal landmine that
Speaker 6: was going through this. So I was working that mindful
Speaker 6: of what I felt like I could disclose and not
Speaker 6: disclose in the writing of the book, because I didn't
Speaker 6: want to unravel a ten year investigation by exposing something
Speaker 6: that may not be admissible in court. I was fortunate
Speaker 6: enough to be given access to this treasure trove of information.
Speaker 6: I mean, from a writer slash journalist perspective, it was
Speaker 6: incredible to be able to sit there and listen to
Speaker 6: recordings and come up with a profile and formulate a
Speaker 6: way to sift through this information to make it a
Speaker 6: story that was compelling enough for people to want to
Speaker 6: read it. I mean, it was truly remarkable, and I
Speaker 6: should mention I mean I lived in Phoenix at the time,
Speaker 6: so I was driving to Tucson three times a week,
Speaker 6: spending six or seven hours at a time in the
Speaker 6: police department going through that evidence, and going to the
Speaker 6: appellate court and going through that evidence. You know, it
Speaker 6: was just an astronomical undertaking at the time. But the
Speaker 6: case was absolutely fascinating, and it really played to a
Speaker 6: lot of my strengths because, you know, as a capital lawyer,
Speaker 6: I was doing a lot of that kind of work,
Speaker 6: going behind the scenes investigating, you know, So it was
Speaker 6: playing to my strengths that way, and I just found
Speaker 6: the case so compelling for so many different angles, not
Speaker 6: only from the perspective of the two sociopaths, but also
Speaker 6: from you know, the perspective of being able to bring
Speaker 6: the experience of Detective Gamber to light. Because I don't
Speaker 6: think that that's delved into very much in books. You
Speaker 6: know just what he was going through, so it was
Speaker 6: very it was a very interesting experience.
Speaker 5: Yes, I want to applaud you for the incredible effort
Speaker 5: you put into I guess demonstrating and illustrating this, especially
Speaker 5: the life of and the course of this, how it
Speaker 5: affected this detective especially, but of all the players involved,
Speaker 5: I want to thank you very much for coming on
Speaker 5: and talking about a socialite scorned the murder of a
Speaker 5: Tucson high roller Kelly. For those people that might want
Speaker 5: to check out other work or is there a Facebook page,
Speaker 5: tell us how they might contact you or look at
Speaker 5: other works that you have done.
Speaker 6: Sure, thank you very much for having me on the show.
Speaker 6: You can find me at my website. It's Carrie Drobin
Speaker 6: dot com. It's K E double R I E D
Speaker 6: R O B A N. And then from there I
Speaker 6: have multiple links to Amazon. You can find all of
Speaker 6: my other books on there, in Facebook and all the
Speaker 6: rest of that on social media. So I'm out there
Speaker 6: and I should mention too. There's there's going to be
Speaker 6: a production Socialite Scorn. I'm not sure when it's going
Speaker 6: to air, but sometime in March. I believe put out
Speaker 6: by Jupiter prorections.
Speaker 5: Well, that sounds great. We'll have to look forward to that.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much. Again, I want to thank you
Speaker 5: Kelly Drobin for a socialite scorned, incredible story. Thank you
Speaker 5: very much. Thank you, have a great night. Thank you, Kelly.
Speaker 6: Thank you so much. Bubbyebye, I Sat