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Chum chumbucasino dot com. 43 00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:02.719 Ustails. 44 00:02:13.520 --> 00:02:16.960 You are now listening to true Murder, the most shocking 45 00:02:17.039 --> 00:02:20.080 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 46 00:02:20.120 --> 00:02:27.400 written about them Gasey, Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK Every 47 00:02:27.439 --> 00:02:31.120 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 48 00:02:31.240 --> 00:02:35.439 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 49 00:02:35.439 --> 00:02:39.319 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 50 00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:53.919 Good Evening. The victim was Gary Triano, a Tucson real 51 00:02:54.039 --> 00:02:59.199 estate developer with influential friends and enemies. After finishing a 52 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:01.599 round of golf at a country club, he went to 53 00:03:01.639 --> 00:03:03.800 the parking lot and found a gift in his car, 54 00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:08.280 a crudely made pipe bomb that blew him to pieces. 55 00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:12.080 The bomb maker was Ron Young, a Colorado bad guy 56 00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:16.400 wanted on weapons and fraud charges. The prosecution claimed that 57 00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:18.560 the woman he was dating at the time promised to 58 00:03:18.560 --> 00:03:22.039 pay him four hundred thousand to murder her ex husband. 59 00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:27.639 Her name was Pamela Phillips, an Aspen socialite, divorcee and 60 00:03:27.680 --> 00:03:31.439 mother of Trianno's two children. She received two million dollars 61 00:03:31.479 --> 00:03:35.960 upon his death, but evaded suspicion for more than a decade. Finally, 62 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:39.120 half way across the globe in Austria, authorities caught up 63 00:03:39.159 --> 00:03:42.199 with the Blonde Bombshell, igniting one of the most explosive 64 00:03:42.280 --> 00:03:46.039 cases in Arizona history. The book they were featuring this 65 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:49.800 evening is A Socialite Scorned the Murder of a Tucson 66 00:03:49.960 --> 00:03:54.000 High Ruler, with my special guest, journalist and author Kelly Drobin. 67 00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:56.080 Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for 68 00:03:56.159 --> 00:04:01.000 greening his interview. Kelly Drobin, you much for having me. 69 00:04:02.639 --> 00:04:06.360 Thank you very much. This is an incredible story. Let's 70 00:04:06.400 --> 00:04:09.919 get right to how you came to be in a position, 71 00:04:10.439 --> 00:04:13.560 why you felt compelled, or why you wanted to write 72 00:04:13.560 --> 00:04:14.919 this book, A social ighte Scorn. 73 00:04:16.439 --> 00:04:20.319 Well, I was fortunate enough to have gone to law 74 00:04:20.360 --> 00:04:25.079 school in Tucson, and I had just become a lawyer 75 00:04:25.160 --> 00:04:29.040 at the time that Gary Triano blew up. And so 76 00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:34.160 Tucson is a very eclectic sort of It's touted as 77 00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:36.439 a safe place to live, and it's a much more 78 00:04:36.480 --> 00:04:39.319 reminiscent of a wild West than of the social lighte scene. 79 00:04:39.959 --> 00:04:42.720 It's an hour from the Mexican border. It's a good 80 00:04:42.759 --> 00:04:46.959 town to disappear in. And so when this bombing happened, 81 00:04:47.199 --> 00:04:49.759 it was sort of like a nine to eleven moment. 82 00:04:49.879 --> 00:04:52.240 You know, everybody knew where they were when this happened 83 00:04:52.240 --> 00:04:57.720 because it was so shocking. And so I was a 84 00:04:57.800 --> 00:04:59.959 lawyer at the time, and in two thousand and five, 85 00:05:00.759 --> 00:05:04.399 you know, flash forward, Ron Young was named a person 86 00:05:04.439 --> 00:05:07.079 of interest on America's Most Wanted. It was a show 87 00:05:07.120 --> 00:05:10.480 that I watched pretty regularly for crime stories. And in 88 00:05:10.560 --> 00:05:14.240 a strange twist of fate, Jay Dobbins, who was the 89 00:05:14.279 --> 00:05:17.639 subject of my first book, Running with the Devil, was 90 00:05:17.720 --> 00:05:22.399 the very close friend of the investigator on the Gary 91 00:05:22.399 --> 00:05:26.800 Triano case, Detective Gamber, and Detective Gamber had asked him 92 00:05:26.839 --> 00:05:30.199 to help him orchestrate and America's Most Wanted episode that 93 00:05:30.319 --> 00:05:32.759 employed people to look out for Ron Young. And so 94 00:05:32.920 --> 00:05:37.439 when Ron Young was you know, eventually arrested and finishing 95 00:05:37.439 --> 00:05:40.279 his trial for the murder of Gary Ciano, that's when 96 00:05:40.279 --> 00:05:43.680 I knew I had to write the story. I was positioned, 97 00:05:44.120 --> 00:05:46.079 you know, in the location for it. I was living 98 00:05:46.120 --> 00:05:48.439 in Phoenix at the time, but I was very close 99 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:51.920 to Tucson. I knew the bombing. I mean, I had been, 100 00:05:52.560 --> 00:05:56.000 you know, around when that happened, and it was just, 101 00:05:56.319 --> 00:05:58.480 you know, it was right. It was an incredible story, 102 00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:02.040 and I thought, I've got to jump on this. So 103 00:06:02.040 --> 00:06:05.399 so I had already written two books before I jumped 104 00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:09.360 on A social life Scorned and you know thought, this 105 00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:12.759 is a fascinating This is like a writer's dream, you know, 106 00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:15.360 to go in there in mind the story and be 107 00:06:15.399 --> 00:06:17.360 able to write it from the point of view of 108 00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:20.160 basically two sociopaths. 109 00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:26.480 Absolutely. Now, let's talk about November one, nineteen ninety six, 110 00:06:26.639 --> 00:06:31.920 as you do the actual bombing murder itself, and you 111 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:34.959 describe Gary Triano as a land developer of real estate mogul, 112 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:39.759 as you mentioned, just had his fifty third birthday, six 113 00:06:39.800 --> 00:06:42.879 foot two, two hundred and forty pounds. Tell us where 114 00:06:42.959 --> 00:06:46.600 he is. We talked about the golf resort. So set 115 00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:49.040 the stage as you do in this book. You talk 116 00:06:49.079 --> 00:06:53.639 about the Boro of Lincoln town Car. Set the stage 117 00:06:53.639 --> 00:06:56.879 as you do in this book. Described this so. 118 00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:01.279 Gary Triano was he He was a man who liked 119 00:07:01.279 --> 00:07:05.759 to portray himself as larger than life. He was a 120 00:07:05.839 --> 00:07:09.920 man who he didn't have well it's it's kind of 121 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:12.079 unknown whether he had mafia connections, but he liked to 122 00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:14.720 portray himself as someone who had mafia connections. He had 123 00:07:14.800 --> 00:07:18.319 serious money. He was taking private jets to Vegas. He 124 00:07:18.399 --> 00:07:22.439 was insisting that he'd be called mister t when he was, 125 00:07:22.639 --> 00:07:26.839 you know, socializing with people he hung out with the 126 00:07:26.959 --> 00:07:31.879 likes of Donald Trump. He would go to parties and 127 00:07:31.920 --> 00:07:36.199 events and buy rounds of cocktails for everyone, tipping waitresses 128 00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:38.639 ridiculous sums of money. He was like a character out 129 00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:43.120 of a Hollywood movie. And one of the most striking 130 00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:45.680 things about him, just to set the stage for this 131 00:07:45.800 --> 00:07:50.079 is his home. Will give you a great indication of 132 00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:53.560 how he viewed himself. He had portraits of himself in 133 00:07:53.639 --> 00:07:58.800 his home as Indian chiefs, and everywhere you look bronze 134 00:07:58.879 --> 00:08:01.240 reliefs of his head. He was just a larger than 135 00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:05.959 life person. So the murder or when this happened, it 136 00:08:06.040 --> 00:08:09.120 was almost he led an explosive life, and so he 137 00:08:09.160 --> 00:08:13.839 had an explosive end. He played golf at the La 138 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:16.680 Paloma Golf Resort, which is a pretty swanky place in 139 00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:19.600 Tucson it was at the time, and he had he 140 00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:22.040 was kind of a creature of habit, so he had 141 00:08:22.040 --> 00:08:25.480 a regular tea time and he would go there and 142 00:08:26.120 --> 00:08:28.839 play golf. And so on the date that this happened, 143 00:08:29.240 --> 00:08:31.160 he was playing golf, and it was he was on 144 00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:34.080 his way to his birthday party, which was actually a 145 00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:39.360 surprise birthday party, but he got into his Lincoln Town car. 146 00:08:39.919 --> 00:08:44.480 He habitually left the windows down and there was a 147 00:08:44.519 --> 00:08:49.720 bag like a sack sitting on the passenger seat, and 148 00:08:49.840 --> 00:08:53.320 he thought it was I mean, this is obviously presumed, 149 00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:56.120 but he thought it was a birthday gift. So he 150 00:08:56.200 --> 00:08:59.879 reached over to open it, and that's when his car exploded. 151 00:09:00.279 --> 00:09:06.120 He exploded, and it was a sensational crime because the explosion, 152 00:09:07.399 --> 00:09:11.080 it was in broad daylight. There were a ton of witnesses, 153 00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:15.279 There were people dining at the fancy restaurant right above 154 00:09:15.320 --> 00:09:19.200 the golf resort, and the explosion was so large that 155 00:09:19.240 --> 00:09:21.559 there were pieces of the car that landed in the 156 00:09:21.559 --> 00:09:28.000 swimming pool. There were you know, the car itself is 157 00:09:28.039 --> 00:09:32.759 still you can still view it's it just it was 158 00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:38.159 completely pulverized, and Gary Trono himself obviously was pulverized. So 159 00:09:38.279 --> 00:09:44.159 it was it was a crazy explosion, and it had 160 00:09:44.200 --> 00:09:50.639 the hallmarks of a mafia hit, and so it started 161 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:55.919 this investigation into you know, over thousands of suspects. It 162 00:09:55.960 --> 00:09:59.919 was one of these these crazy who done it? Case 163 00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:04.679 of magnitude proportion, so it had a daunting list of 164 00:10:04.679 --> 00:10:08.840 potential suspects. The timeline for this murder it spanned a 165 00:10:08.919 --> 00:10:12.679 decade because whenever you have a bomb, it's going to 166 00:10:12.679 --> 00:10:16.840 bring in multiple jurisdictions, multiple agencies trying to track down, 167 00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:21.399 you know, the origins of the bomb. Because Gary lived 168 00:10:21.399 --> 00:10:26.799 this larger than life existence. He had so many enemies 169 00:10:26.919 --> 00:10:29.440 and so many people that had a motive to kill 170 00:10:29.480 --> 00:10:33.639 him that it became this this crazy landscape for this 171 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:37.559 one detective who, ironically enough, I mean, there are lots 172 00:10:37.600 --> 00:10:40.480 of ironies whenever you write a true story, but this 173 00:10:40.759 --> 00:10:44.440 case had a ton of ironies because they detective this 174 00:10:44.600 --> 00:10:51.840 was his first or second murder case ever in the department, 175 00:10:52.279 --> 00:10:57.919 and he was almost single handedly tasked with the idea, 176 00:10:58.600 --> 00:11:03.120 with the job of finding suspect. So it was it 177 00:11:03.159 --> 00:11:07.200 was just really an incredible crime scene and then an 178 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:11.440 incredible investigation that followed. And I should mention too that 179 00:11:11.600 --> 00:11:14.039 the fact that it happens, I mean, not only do 180 00:11:14.080 --> 00:11:17.600 you have this explosion in Tucson, which I indicated a 181 00:11:17.639 --> 00:11:19.960 little bit earlier, is sort of known as this eclectic 182 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:23.559 and safe place to live, but it's also the town 183 00:11:23.720 --> 00:11:28.559 for reputed mobsters who retire there because it's considered the 184 00:11:28.600 --> 00:11:31.559 sort of open territory among mobsters. So they come and 185 00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:34.360 they can They used to come and conduct illegal activities 186 00:11:34.399 --> 00:11:38.159 without violating a hierarchy of organized crime. So you have 187 00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:43.600 the famous Arizona Republic reporter Don Bowles who was targeted 188 00:11:43.879 --> 00:11:47.279 in nineteen seventy six by the mafia and he was 189 00:11:47.320 --> 00:11:51.559 blown up outside also killed in a car bomb outside 190 00:11:51.559 --> 00:11:55.960 of a hotel. So there were all kinds of you know, 191 00:11:57.039 --> 00:12:00.360 tentative links to the two kinds of crime, and then 192 00:12:00.360 --> 00:12:03.240 that sort of set this in motion, as you know, 193 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:04.600 perhaps a mob hit. 194 00:12:07.960 --> 00:12:12.039 You talk about the detective Gamber, James Gamber, you'd only 195 00:12:12.080 --> 00:12:15.240 been on the force six months and he got this case, 196 00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:17.639 and he's the sent one of the central figures in 197 00:12:17.679 --> 00:12:22.159 this story. And you talk about right away the juxtaposition 198 00:12:22.279 --> 00:12:26.639 with these ATF agents coming into this resort basically with 199 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:29.159 the black helmet and the bomb sniffing dogs. So it 200 00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:33.039 was quite the scene. And you say a suspected terrorist 201 00:12:33.080 --> 00:12:36.200 strike or a mafia hit, so something that they were 202 00:12:36.279 --> 00:12:42.240 unaccustomed to. And you talk about right away the Gamber 203 00:12:42.279 --> 00:12:46.559 and his partner, Sergeant Keith Saint John, and they are 204 00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:50.840 seeing they're getting reports of vehicles leaving the scene. But 205 00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:54.120 like you say that there's so many leads, so many 206 00:12:54.120 --> 00:13:00.960 conflicting reports, and then you talk about Pamela Phillips and 207 00:13:00.960 --> 00:13:04.159 and you tell a little bit about her background, this 208 00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:06.399 attractive real estate agent. So tell us a little bit 209 00:13:06.440 --> 00:13:09.799 about Pamela Phillips and what she's doing before she meets 210 00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:11.080 Gary Triano. 211 00:13:12.039 --> 00:13:18.679 Mkay. So, Pamela Phillips is Gary Triano's ex wife. They 212 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:22.440 had been divorced, uh couple of years actually before this 213 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:25.879 bombing happened. And the way that I like to describe 214 00:13:25.879 --> 00:13:28.600 Pamela Phillips is, uh, sort of the ware, the real 215 00:13:28.679 --> 00:13:33.919 person inside the costume she was. And I describe her 216 00:13:34.039 --> 00:13:36.519 in a book, and I think it's fairly accurate given 217 00:13:36.559 --> 00:13:39.480 the the evidence that was presented in the case. But 218 00:13:39.519 --> 00:13:42.799 I describe her as a sociopath. She is a figure 219 00:13:42.840 --> 00:13:46.039 who used and abused people to get what she wanted, 220 00:13:46.279 --> 00:13:48.559 and and what she really wanted was money, no matter 221 00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:52.559 the cost. So case in point, she she marries Gary 222 00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:55.600 for money, she divorces him over money, and she eventually 223 00:13:55.720 --> 00:14:01.799 kills him for money. She she felt like a Uh. 224 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:05.440 She comes into the marriage, she has two million dollars 225 00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:09.679 in assets, and so she when she targets Gary, Gary 226 00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:12.679 at the time had about two million dollars in assets. 227 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:17.559 He was involved in the casino world, the Indian gaming 228 00:14:17.639 --> 00:14:21.320 casino business, and so she believed that she was getting 229 00:14:21.320 --> 00:14:24.120 into a marriage that was on equal par with her. 230 00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:26.600 You know, she brought money in, he had money, and 231 00:14:26.600 --> 00:14:30.480 they were gonna build an empire together. And so what 232 00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:34.080 eventually happens, and what she learns pretty early on in 233 00:14:34.120 --> 00:14:37.200 the marriage is that Gary is not what he seems 234 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:41.240 or who he seems. In fact, he's embroiled in about 235 00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:45.320 seventy four lawsuits. He is on the verge of bankruptcy. 236 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:51.879 He owes everybody money, he owes his attorney money, ninety 237 00:14:51.919 --> 00:14:54.879 one thousand dollars to an attorney, he owes sixty eight 238 00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:57.320 thousand dollars to his mother, thirty thousand dollars to a 239 00:14:57.360 --> 00:15:01.840 fitness club. He's one point eight million dollars in business 240 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:05.960 debts and loans. So he's really not who he seems. 241 00:15:06.039 --> 00:15:10.919 And so Pamela discovers this, you know, as I said, 242 00:15:10.919 --> 00:15:14.080 early on in the marriage, and so she feels very 243 00:15:14.279 --> 00:15:18.759 entitled and very scorned. And that's really the why the 244 00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:23.840 title of the book is is pretty apropos. So when 245 00:15:23.879 --> 00:15:27.759 they get divorced, they have a number of fights over 246 00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:32.879 child support and alimony, and because Gary has filed for 247 00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:36.120 bankruptcy and he doesn't have the assets that she once 248 00:15:36.200 --> 00:15:40.480 believed that he had, she is incensed over this and 249 00:15:40.519 --> 00:15:44.679 she takes him back to court multiple times. But the 250 00:15:45.519 --> 00:15:50.080 key part of this investigation and why Detective Gamber ultimately 251 00:15:50.679 --> 00:15:53.399 zeros in on her as a possible suspect, is that 252 00:15:53.519 --> 00:15:57.639 during the marriage, Gary purchased a life insurance policy and 253 00:15:57.679 --> 00:16:01.480 he insisted that and the life insurance policy coincidentally is 254 00:16:01.519 --> 00:16:04.440 worth two million dollars, and he insisted that she'd be 255 00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:08.840 the beneficiary or the trustee, and his children were the beneficiaries, 256 00:16:08.919 --> 00:16:11.320 but she was the trustee over that until the children 257 00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:17.600 reached the age of eighteen, and so the premium for 258 00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:23.120 the life insurance policy was not paid by Pam. Pam, 259 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:25.840 as she always did and very consistent with her character, 260 00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:29.919 would commission other people to do her bidding. And so 261 00:16:30.600 --> 00:16:37.279 she had entrusted her good friend Joy Bancroft with the 262 00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:41.679 task of paying her life insurance premiums. And so Joy 263 00:16:41.720 --> 00:16:45.240 Bancroft was a person who had over the years loaned 264 00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:49.039 Pam a lot of money because Pam's one of Pam's 265 00:16:49.080 --> 00:16:52.360 sicknesses or illnesses is that she always believed she had 266 00:16:52.360 --> 00:16:55.440 no money, even though she had money and never worked 267 00:16:55.480 --> 00:16:57.919 a day in her life when she was married to Gary, 268 00:16:58.080 --> 00:17:01.399 she always believed she was just, you know, impossibly poor. 269 00:17:02.600 --> 00:17:06.920 So she commissioned Anne Bankrupt to pay the life insurance premiums. 270 00:17:07.160 --> 00:17:14.519 And so around the time of the bombing, Pam discovered 271 00:17:14.519 --> 00:17:19.799 that Joy had neglected to pay the premium when it 272 00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:22.960 was the October premium, and so the life insurance policy 273 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:27.559 was going to lapse. So here she had orchestrated this 274 00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:31.640 murder and expected to recoup what she believed she was 275 00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:34.359 entitled to. She brought two million into the marriage. She 276 00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:36.319 believed she was entitled to the two million back and 277 00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:38.319 she was going to get it no matter the cost. 278 00:17:38.920 --> 00:17:41.799 And so, you know, her payback was going to be 279 00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:45.880 the life insurance policy. So when she discovered that Joy 280 00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:49.440 Bancroft had not paid that premium, she almost went into 281 00:17:49.519 --> 00:17:53.680 a panic, almost almost drove herself insane, and was on 282 00:17:53.720 --> 00:17:56.680 the phone trying to get the premium paid, you know, 283 00:17:56.720 --> 00:18:00.240 trying to have a grace period. And so eventually she 284 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:03.359 gets that premium paid and eventually the life insurance policy 285 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:07.920 pays out. But that becomes the trigger for a detective Gamber, 286 00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:12.160 you know, because usually the spouse is the number one 287 00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:15.400 suspect in a murder case, but this was an unusual case. 288 00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:18.880 They had been divorced, she lived in Aspen at the time. 289 00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:21.799 She had already established a different life in Aspen, so 290 00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:25.559 she wasn't even in into Tucson. She had no proximity 291 00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:30.079 to Tucson. In fact, she and Gary had this parenting 292 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:33.079 plan where Gary would have to fly out to Aspen 293 00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:35.559 to see the children. The children were sometimes flown from 294 00:18:35.559 --> 00:18:39.200 Aspen to Tucson. Is very complicated, so she was not 295 00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:43.599 an immediate suspect because she wasn't even in Tucson, and 296 00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:47.440 they couldn't fathom how she could possibly have, you know, 297 00:18:47.559 --> 00:18:50.720 orchestrated a bombing or constructed a bomb. So she was 298 00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:56.920 very far removed from the actual murder until detective Gamber 299 00:18:57.039 --> 00:19:00.000 had exhausted a number of leads and kept coming back 300 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:02.839 to that life insurance policy. 301 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:09.000 You talk about the complication in Gamber in experienced homicide detective, 302 00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:14.640 but also the amount of leads and also a lot 303 00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:21.240 of the efforts by her herself to be able to 304 00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:25.559 be able to stifle the investigation and to complicate this. 305 00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:29.160 She also talked about the restraining order she had against Gary, 306 00:19:29.240 --> 00:19:32.880 and she weaved a story about people looking for him, 307 00:19:33.559 --> 00:19:36.279 wanting him, him sleeping with a loaded gun. Tell us 308 00:19:36.279 --> 00:19:39.160 a little bit about the story she gave and what 309 00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:43.720 Gamber heard from her about her husband ex husband. 310 00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:49.480 She was Pam was very was very crafty, I kind 311 00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:52.319 of she was almost crazy, like a fox, you know. 312 00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:57.640 She knew how to keep Detective Gamber at bay. And 313 00:19:57.680 --> 00:20:02.440 so she was interviewed a multiple number of times. And 314 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:05.440 what she did and and and a lot of this 315 00:20:05.640 --> 00:20:09.359 bore out to be true. She created a story that 316 00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:16.119 Gary was a wife abuser, that he had a volatile temper, 317 00:20:16.640 --> 00:20:22.039 that he was involved with he had Mexican deals that 318 00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:30.920 had gone south, and they fraudulent transactions that created sort 319 00:20:30.920 --> 00:20:33.279 of death threats. And whether or not those actually panned 320 00:20:33.319 --> 00:20:35.720 out are you know, I don't know the Detective Gamber 321 00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:36.920 was ever able to support that. 322 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:38.079 But what she. 323 00:20:38.119 --> 00:20:43.559 Did was she convinced Detective Gamber that Gary had a 324 00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:49.680 number of enemies, that there were this this Mexican deal 325 00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:54.440 where almost like a a cartel was was after him 326 00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:57.440 and had left him death threats. And so Gary started 327 00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:01.680 to carry a gun and she created a story that 328 00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:04.839 you know, Gary was sort of paranoid and thinking that 329 00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:08.799 everybody was following him and had a gun hidden under 330 00:21:08.839 --> 00:21:10.720 the pillow of his bed, and you know, one night 331 00:21:10.759 --> 00:21:13.640 had actually held it to her and so she was 332 00:21:13.880 --> 00:21:17.799 a victim of domestic violence. So that was the portrait 333 00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:24.160 that she portrayed to Detective Gamber. She also told Gamber 334 00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:28.599 that Gary had mafia connections and that maybe this was 335 00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:32.079 a mob hit and he should be investigating, you know, 336 00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:35.440 those connections or those links, and so over the course 337 00:21:35.480 --> 00:21:40.440 I mean this, this investigation lasted a decade and Detective 338 00:21:40.440 --> 00:21:44.359 Gamber would go down various bunny trails, you know, to 339 00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:47.079 see whether any of them were going to pan out, 340 00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:49.680 and none of them actually did, but he got calls 341 00:21:50.200 --> 00:21:56.680 everything from potential mafia hits to health angel connections, you know, 342 00:21:56.720 --> 00:21:59.440 and he had to investigate every one of them because 343 00:21:59.599 --> 00:22:02.440 he just you know, you never know until you go 344 00:22:02.519 --> 00:22:04.599 down those bunny trails whether or not you can eliminate 345 00:22:04.599 --> 00:22:08.079 them as a witness. So she was very clever in 346 00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:10.680 doing that and in painting that picture that Gary was 347 00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:13.960 a volatile person, never paid back his debt a ton 348 00:22:13.960 --> 00:22:16.519 of people money, and that part was true. He did, 349 00:22:16.519 --> 00:22:18.920 oh a ton of people money. He did have failed 350 00:22:18.920 --> 00:22:25.039 business deals. He you know, was involved in casinos and 351 00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:29.480 things that certainly could have led to people having a 352 00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:34.279 beef against him. There was another key suspect, and whether 353 00:22:34.359 --> 00:22:36.640 or not Pam had planted this or this was Detective 354 00:22:36.680 --> 00:22:42.200 Gamber's own finding. But he became a potential suspect a 355 00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:44.240 man by the name of Neil MacNeice who was an 356 00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:48.519 acquaintance of Gary's, and he agreed to purchase an item 357 00:22:48.559 --> 00:22:51.680 at a charity auction. Neil paid Gary greed to pay 358 00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:53.720 Neil fifty percent, and they tried to get him to 359 00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:59.119 go into business together. But eventually Gary asked Neil for 360 00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:02.680 a loan and he used Pam's wedding ring as collateral. 361 00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:04.880 And the wedding ring was worth two hundred and thirty 362 00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:08.319 five thousand dollars and Gary wanted an eighty five thousand 363 00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:11.480 dollars loan, and so Gary switched the ring and he 364 00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:14.759 gave Neil a cubic circonia ring, And so there was 365 00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:18.920 this whole backstory that Neil, you know, Neil potentially had 366 00:23:18.920 --> 00:23:21.440 a motive to kill Gary because he was obsessed with 367 00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:24.039 the you know, the bait and switch that Gary had 368 00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:26.519 done and so were there were all kinds of stories 369 00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:29.680 like that that Pam concocted to kind of throw Gamber 370 00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:34.559 off the path. And what was interesting about it was, 371 00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:39.039 you know, while Detective Gamber is investigating all of these leads, 372 00:23:39.559 --> 00:23:44.039 you have the the ATF and the other federal agencies 373 00:23:44.119 --> 00:23:49.599 investigating the bomb. So you know, one part is investigating 374 00:23:49.640 --> 00:23:52.720 the people, the other part is investigating the actual you know, 375 00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:57.559 manner of death. The bomb, which which happened to be 376 00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:03.319 more sophisticated than most. It was unusually long, it was 377 00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:05.920 stuffed with red dot powder. It was the same kind 378 00:24:05.920 --> 00:24:09.519 of powder that was used to reload shotgunshelf. It had 379 00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:13.000 six folt battery lantern, which was very popular in the seventies, 380 00:24:13.119 --> 00:24:15.160 and so they were trying to get a profile on 381 00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:17.440 the bomber. So that was what was going on on 382 00:24:17.599 --> 00:24:21.440 the federal level. So you can imagine all the movable 383 00:24:21.480 --> 00:24:25.799 parts with all of the various characters involved, and so 384 00:24:25.880 --> 00:24:28.960 that was I think Gamber's challenge was he was dealing 385 00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:34.680 with Pam, who was, you know, a very skilled sociopath, 386 00:24:34.839 --> 00:24:37.279 knew how to use people, knew how to manipulate people, 387 00:24:37.319 --> 00:24:42.480 and knew how to twist things to serve her own advantage. 388 00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:47.720 How did she respond to Gamber's polygraph request and what 389 00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:49.960 did he deduce or what did he say to her 390 00:24:50.279 --> 00:24:50.960 as a result. 391 00:24:54.039 --> 00:24:58.640 Well, he had at least I think three interviews with 392 00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:01.960 Pam over the life insurance policy, and and they're and 393 00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:05.920 I detail that pretty well in the book because it's 394 00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:10.440 just so striking her responses to him. She's very evasive 395 00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:16.240 with his questions. She uh, I can't recall now whether 396 00:25:16.279 --> 00:25:20.240 she agrees to take a polygraph or not. But Gamber 397 00:25:20.359 --> 00:25:24.359 basically says to her, you know, it's kind of crime 398 00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:28.319 investigation one on one. You know, if somebody doesn't agree 399 00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:31.079 to take polygraph, you know, they're pretty much a suspect 400 00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:35.240 or they're pretty much guilty. So she's she's very evasive, 401 00:25:37.119 --> 00:25:41.799