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Speaker 1: Hey, As I was on the bat cruise with the

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ACA yesterday, I got to thinking about bats in the Bible.

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Did you know that the Bible classifies bats as birds

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or foul depending on your translation. Leviticus and Deuteronomy put

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them right next to eagles and sparrows. That's ridiculous, right, Well,

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for the time, it's not that ridiculous. They didn't know

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the difference between sparrows, eagles, and bats. But we know

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that bats are mammals. They have fur, they nurse their young,

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They have more in common with us than any sparrow.

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But I think this is more than just some sort

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of trivial taxonomic trip up. I think it's a sign

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of a deeper problem with the Bible.

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Speaker 2: If the Bible.

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Speaker 1: Can't be trusted to properly classify a simple bat, then

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why should it be trusted to answer the broader, deeper

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questions of morals, laws, and the meaning of everything. If

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you think you know call us as the show starts.

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Speaker 2: Now, Welcome one and all. Today is August seventeenth, in

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the year of our dark Lord, twenty twenty five. I'm

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your host, Forrest Falci, and I am joined right now

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by secular Rarity and the cross Examiner and Exammeter Examiner.

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Speaker 1: That's my name, and.

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Speaker 2: Later on today I will be joined by j Mike

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and Objectively Dan. We've got five whole hosts ready for

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you to talk about whatever gods you do or don't

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believe in. This is the Atheist Experience, a product of

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the Atheist Community of Boston, and today the only time

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this year we do this, we are live at the

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Free Thought Library in front of a live studio audience.

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Well they're great now you see that one over there

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is my favorite? Which one the one right there in

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the Cities? No?

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Speaker 1: No, the other one?

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Speaker 2: No, no, no, they know, they know. Before we get started,

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a couple of things I want to say. The first

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thing that I have to say is that the Atheist

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Community of Atheists Experience is a product of the Atheist

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Community of Boston, which is a five oh one c

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three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking,

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secular humanism, and the separation of religion and government. The

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second thing that I want to say is that if

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you are watching this and you're a theist or a creationist,

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if you believe in gods or demons or angels, if

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you don't believe in evolution or the age or shape

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of the earth. If you have a problem with people

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like us that don't believe in these fundamental things, that

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aren't a fan of Jesus or the Bible, this is

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your chance to have serious conversations with people who disagree

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with you. We live in a toxic internet culture where

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everybody loves screaming at everybody, and I'm not saying that

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isn't going to happen, but I am saying that that's

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not the point. Point is to give you an opportunity

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to talk to people like us, and for us to

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get to talk to people like you, and for our

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lives to be enriched together. So if you are one

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of those people, if you have a god or a

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gods that you believe in and you want to talk

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about it with some people who don't believe, this is

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your chance. Call that number on the bottom of the screen,

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or use the weblink there on the bottom of screen

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as well, calling over them internets if you don't want

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to use up all your minutes or you're calling from

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another country or anything like that. Before we get started,

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how are you okay? Good? I'm good?

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Speaker 1: How are you I'm pretty good. I'm excited to be here.

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This is my first time at the studio and on

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the bat cruise and meeting everybody, and it's just so

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much more than I thought it would be. I'm really

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happy I came.

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Speaker 2: How about you, guys, I'm excited I was here.

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Speaker 3: Last year we did this, it was it was a

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super super great time. Then an even better time this time.

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The boat work, the bats worked.

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Speaker 2: They also came out.

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Speaker 3: You know, that's one of the things about dealing with

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live animals in your experience, like you just kind of

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got to deal with whatever the animals want to do.

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It's like that bats don't want to come out tonight.

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Speaker 1: It's like, all right, cool, But any actor worth their

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assault will say, never worked with.

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Speaker 4: That's right, that's right.

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Speaker 2: But this time it worked out really well. It was

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like a dream. It was magically Yeah, we cruised up

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and down the river whatever it's got a name. We

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saw a great many bats, and more importantly, we got

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to meet a great many people. We had so many

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folks come out from all over the country and a

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couple from outside of the country as well, just to

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come over and hang out with us, get to meet us,

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get to know us, take pictures and just chat. And

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that's the best part about events like this and communities

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like this. I've said before and I'll say again, the

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thing that the atheist community as a whole is lacking

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the most is the community aspect. And that's why organizations

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like the Atheist Community of Austin are so incredibly important,

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because people need a place to go to know that

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they're not crazy and they're not alone. When you leave religion,

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you have all the weight of all that trauma and

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all that baggage upon your shoulders by yourself. You've lost

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your family, you've lost your community, you've lost your church,

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you've lost your friends, You've lost all of these things potentially,

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and that could be really scary and really problematic and

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really harmful and really hurtful and really freaking difficult to

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deal with. And that's why this community is here for

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you out there who are going through these things, who

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have questions, who are deconstructing, who are doubting, who just

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want to know whether or not atheists, or just angry

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people who want to sleep in on a Sunday, or

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if we actually have something interesting to say. For all

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of you, you are welcome here. This is an open

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and inclusive environment. As long as you're not a dick,

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you're welcome to come hang out with us, and if

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you are, you're well fome to call in the show

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and make some content for you.

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Speaker 1: Yes, we can't both be true. Can't we be angry

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people who just want to sleep in but also nice

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to other people?

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Speaker 2: Say we were? I'm saying we're not just that. Okay,

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we've gotten a.

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Speaker 5: Little hot over the weekend. You know, honestly I agree

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with you.

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Speaker 3: For us, you know, we we love to have that

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opportunity where people you know, hash out nuanced, difficult, you know, conversations.

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We get to we get to really dig in and

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learn from each other.

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Speaker 2: But look, I'm just going to let you know.

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Speaker 3: You know, if you want to make me look like

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an idiot, I mean, now's a good time. Gotcha's you know?

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I mean, what am I gonna do? I'm just some dipshit?

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Speaker 5: You know?

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Speaker 3: Come on, show me, show me how smart and cool

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you are and why your fundamental, ontological, presuppositional bullshit is whatever.

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Speaker 2: Come on, we can I prove it. You've got it.

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Really is like the biggest opportunity, and that's the amount

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of people that come into my comment sections on all

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platforms to tell me how easily they could destroy me

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in a debate versus the amount of people that actually

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call into any of the shows, that it's a ridiculous idea.

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Speaker 1: Do you ever respond with like, hey, I'll be live

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at the staate and time.

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Speaker 2: Literally, it is the most common thing that I put

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in my office sections. It's just hey, I host channel

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shows on this platform and this platform. These are my

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next three shows. When can I expect your call cricket?

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And it never comes every time. And the thing is that,

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like I hope that the people out there watching understand

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is that we don't prepare for this. We prepared by

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showing up. You call in, we get a thing on

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the screen and says, this guy is calling in. This

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is what they want to talk about week click talk

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and that's the whole thing. So you can do all

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the prep work you want, and we got to take

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it on as it is. You know, this is the

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best chance you could ever have to prove God to

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three people who don't believe in it and the thousands

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of people that watch this show. Think of all the

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souls you could say, if only you could show how silly,

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and you don't have to make us try to make

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us look silly ridiculous. We are silly, ridiculous, but you

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could also make us look like we're bad atheists. And

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that's the key think.

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Speaker 3: I mean, guys, you don't think they're scared, is it?

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Do you think they're afraid? I think they're just I'm

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just scared.

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Speaker 5: Shaking in their boots and their basements.

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Speaker 1: I would want them to think about it like we're

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at the church fair and we're sitting in the dunking booth.

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But you get to throw balls for free, and bring

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any size ball you want. Just step up, take your shot,

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and we'll see if you can score a bulls eye.

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Speaker 5: So you have a quick disclaimer, please do not throw.

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Speaker 2: I mean there's a wall titioning us here. That's right,

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we are for saying. So bring your balls to the

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atheist experience. All that number on the bottom of the screen.

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Put your balls on the lock your balls on the loft.

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It's time to put your balls where your mouth glass

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does have this conversation with your giant balls. Yes, and

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let's start by hearing about the balls of our first caller,

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who is Ulric pronouns he and him calling in all

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the way from Mexican Mexico, who says that atheism is

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based on fallacious reasoning. I already have questions about those words.

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But let's see where it goes. Uh Rick, you are

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on a the atheist experience with not just forest and

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not just secularity, but also, most importantly with the cross examiner. Right,

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bad day, man? Hey, you heres me neither?

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Speaker 1: Hell yeah, yeah, why don't you tell us what our

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fallacious reasoning is?

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Speaker 2: What you got for us?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's all based on chusy observation of now and

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totally ignoring old experiences of humanity for the last thousands

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of years.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that's just so you know real quick. That's not.

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Speaker 3: All right, Alric, I just I just want to stop,

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because I think what you're getting at there's a deeper

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discussion that we can have that's worthwhile. But the way

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you're already starting off is silly. That's not fallacious what

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you just talked about. Okay, it's not a fallacy in

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the formal, logical, syllogistic sense. So let's just let's just

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have normal conversation. You say, hey, guys, your atheism doesn't

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account for all the experiences that people have had over

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the years. Okay, fine, let's talk about that, l Rick.

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My response and then I'll let you go back to it.

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My response is yeah, man, but personal experiences is not

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a good way to come to a conclusion.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So now let's have the com and I have

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a have one extra point is most people actually don't

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discount those experiences. We do account for them, and we've

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assessed them and we have found them to be wanting.

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So saying we don't account for them or don't realize them,

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I think is a bit of a straw man.

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Speaker 3: Are you literally turning pages in a scrip? I just

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want to ask real quick, I swear I just thought

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I heard pages turn. It's fine if you are ulric,

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but like if you got found out that fucking quick, bro,

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I'm not sure.

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Speaker 5: Sorry, please go ahead read the next book.

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Speaker 2: What do you think?

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Speaker 6: Respond?

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Speaker 2: Yes, of course, it just sounded like paper. And that's

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very funny.

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Speaker 1: It's just feeding his parrot.

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Speaker 2: Okay, come on, be just the reason to have paper?

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Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, yeah, right, that's all reason of paper. So

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and I brought my ball so you'll call me silly

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and by talking about again, like in every call, about genitals.

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Speaker 2: Why is that? Thank god? Thank god? All right, start with.

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Speaker 1: All Rick, let's life starts with Yes, let's let's just

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let's not go.

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Speaker 2: Down this route. Let's not worry about that. We're going

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to toss it back to you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, what do you think about what myself and cross

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examiner just said about this whole atheism is fallacious thing?

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Speaker 2: Let's do that. Yeah, well, I think that.

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Speaker 6: You'll start with balls and stuff that shows you a

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little that's always so base, so low.

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Speaker 1: If you don't address the question, we're gonna have a

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lot of balls in the air here and we won't know,

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we won't know what to focus on.

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Speaker 2: Or I assure you, I would love to talk about

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genitals for the rest of this call, but that's not

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the point, and that's not what we're here for. You

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said that atheism is fallacious or based on fallacious reasoning

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because we don't account for all the lived experiences of

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all these religious people. Elliott and Graham just very succinctly,

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he told you, why, that's a bit silly. We would

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like to know now your response. Were you using the

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word fallacious colloquially and you don't actually mean that literally?

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Do you understand that we do take into account all

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these lived experiences, we just don't take them very seriously

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because they're not good enough. Or do you think that

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we're missing something still what.

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Speaker 6: You call pre superords, Like you take the position before

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pre suppositions, we have experienced God before. How should we

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not how should we not say take that and go

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further with that in our investigation of how the world works?

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Speaker 2: So I would get I would ask you, I would

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ask you Uric, the exact same question. What about all

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of the experiences of other deities that you don't believe in,

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or monsters that you don't believe in, like dragons and

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Bigfoot and aliens and stuff, or all the other possible

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ghosts and brownies and leprechauns and all these things that

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all sorts of people believe in that you don't. Do

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you think you're missing something by not taking all of

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their anecdotal evidence seriously? Or do you think that, at

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the end of the day, what you actually need to

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believe in a thing is real serious evidence unless it's God.

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Speaker 6: I'm taking them more seriously than you'll become.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that's a shit response. Let's hear let's hear him out,

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how are you taking this more seriously than me? I

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want to hear that.

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Speaker 6: Because I think that if somebody tells me like a

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ghost appeared before me, I really believe that a spirit

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appeared before them.

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Speaker 5: You though, you're just right, So you're just you're regullible.

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Speaker 3: You're right, You're just accepting it based on the first

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thing that somebody tells you. That is not that is

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not adequately taking their experience into account. In fact, you

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are being not only disingenuous, but you are being rude

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to them.

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Speaker 2: And their experience.

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Speaker 3: If Forest comes up and tells me that he just

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got abducted by aliens, and I just go, yeah, Man,

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live your fucking life thinking that aliens are probing your

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butthole every other Sunday, that is being a shitty person

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to Forest.

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Speaker 5: Because that is not the actual reality.

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Speaker 3: What I'm not doing, though, What I'm not doing is saying, hey, man, Forest,

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you're just crazy. You didn't actually have no I am

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legitimately saying, Okay, what is this experience that he had?

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Let me try and assess that based on the categories

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of experiences that have occurred in life, we know that

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things happen just in our minds. We know hallucinations happen.

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How do I know Forrest wasn't having a weird hallucination?

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You know, like if you if you have a if

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you have a vitamin B deficiency for too long, you

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can just start seeing all kinds of crazy shit. Man, Like,

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just accepting people at their word for these types of

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experiences is not is not taking their their experiences seriously.

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Speaker 2: In fact, it's the exact opposite.

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Speaker 3: You're just letting them live their lives in this state

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without ever one saying to them. A man, you might

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want to be careful that stove is hot, Like, that's

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not cool?

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Speaker 1: Dude, what do you think about that?

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Speaker 2: Oldrick?

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Speaker 6: Why am I? Why am I rude? And why do

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have to talk about buttholes again? Why can't you have

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a level of time?

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Speaker 1: Because, Olrick, we are adults who are humans, and we

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enjoy a little bit of humor like everybody else. So

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what do you think about seculararity response? Rather than clutching

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your pearls for the eightieth time on this call, can

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you just respond to his point that buying in instantly

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in a gullible way, just accepting blindly anybody anything that

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anybody tells you about ghosts and goblins, as you said,

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is a disservice to that person. How do you can

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you please respond to his point?

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Speaker 6: I never said I stept blindly what they tell me,

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I say, I depressed it differently.

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Speaker 2: Well, really, were we all in the same goal?

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Speaker 5: He literally said he believed I.

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Speaker 1: Believe them here the first Yeah, that's literally what you said.

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Speaker 2: Proudly what you said?

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Speaker 1: We said audience, Yeah, yeah, yeah, they agree.

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Speaker 5: Okay, I mean, if you don't, look, we all heard it.

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Speaker 3: If you don't stand by that anymore, that's fine.

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Speaker 6: Off again, So you need the audience to agree you

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feel better about yourself.

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Speaker 1: No, I pulled them. I gathered more data. I gathered

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more data. The three of us heard something, but we're

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here in a studio with bright lights, and maybe we

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didn't remember correctly. So I looked at to them, as

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do I remember that correctly? And they said, yes, that's

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what you gotta one. You can go rewind to the tape.

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Speaker 3: But I gotta wonder if you engage with other people

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in your life I think, shut up, I got you

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on the fucking mute. I gotta wonder if you engage

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with other people like this in your life. Man, it's

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a really really odd way to have conversation and incredibly

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difficult to actually communicate and make progress.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so let's just try it. We'll just try it.

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Speaker 5: We'll just like start all the fucking over shit again. Say, hey, oh, Rick,

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you're on the atheist experience.

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Speaker 3: You think atheists are wrong about things, and the reason

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is because we're not adequately addressing the experiences that people

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say they have had with supernatural stuff. Well, gosh forrest, Yes, Graham,

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I really feel like a good answer to that is

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that there's a lot of weird, brainy stuff that happens.

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Speaker 5: And you know, because we're all humans.

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Speaker 3: We we oftentimes see similar patterns in the world around us.

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You guys, do you feel like that fucking accounts.

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Speaker 2: For that shit?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely?

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Speaker 2: And I feel like a great way to check would

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be to like and not just assume that a lot

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of people believing a thing means that that thing is

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probably true.

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Speaker 1: Do we have a way of checking? Is there a

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method of some sort that we could use?

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Speaker 3: I believe they do a census, sia siah something like that. So, hey,

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l Rick, after all of that, what do you think

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I'm gonna let you back on?

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Speaker 2: What do you think here, buddy, look.

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Speaker 6: I think you're feeling silly on purpose. Yet the scientific

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scientific met only explains to you the natural world.

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Speaker 5: What else is the supernatural?

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Speaker 6: By definition?

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Speaker 1: Can you can you please the SuperNature? Can you please

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define what is the meaning of supernatural? And two? Could

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you please tell me how you have detected it?

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Speaker 6: Okay, number one? Supernatural everything that is not observable in nature?

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That's the definition.

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Speaker 1: Can you define observable so that we're on the same page.

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Hold on, hold on, Let's take it one at a time.

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Can you please define observable? No, I won't let you

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finish because you pulled in a word that's going to

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be key to your argument, and I want to make

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sure we're on the same page. Can you please define observable?

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What does it mean to be able to observe something.

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Speaker 6: Scientifically observable? But our methods that we haven't with our senses, seeing, listening,

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et cetera.

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Speaker 1: What about devices that detect things that we can't? What

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about devices that detect things that we cannot detect using

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our senses? Do those count?

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Speaker 7: Yes?

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Speaker 6: Do we like rade your waves and stuff like that?

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Speaker 2: Correct?

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Speaker 1: It's an honest question. I'm not setting a trap. I

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just want to help you define terms so that we

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get to the next part of your argument. We know

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the scope of what you mean by observable, that's all

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I'm asking. So observable means anything that's detectable that we

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can measure somehow, right, observe with our senses, build a

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machine to detect gravitational waves, whatever it may be that

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counts as observable.

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Speaker 2: Is that correct?

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Speaker 6: But I think yes?

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Speaker 1: Okay, what is the next part?

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Speaker 6: Yes, yes to the threat. Here we go.

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Speaker 2: What's the next part?

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Speaker 1: Now there's no trap.

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Speaker 4: What's the next part?

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Speaker 1: No, No, that was that was a question. I'm just asking

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you to continue so we now know what you mean

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by supernatural. My second question was how have you detected

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the supernatural and shown that it exists.

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Speaker 6: I've experienced God, for example, I responded to my prayer,

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and I think that's not natural because if you just

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like talk into the air, you will not get a

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respond if there is no person listening to you.

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Speaker 2: How do you know he responded to your prayer?

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Speaker 6: Because I was lost in a foreign country and I

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needed to get out before I would get arrested. And

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then he told me follow the blue and then there.

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Speaker 2: Was a blue line? How did he tell you?

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Speaker 6: Follow? How?

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Speaker 2: How are you told? Are you told by a letter?

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Speaker 1: Was audibly hear a sound?

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Speaker 6: They? No? In my mind, appear the blue line in

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the moment I was eating, and I might appear the

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blue line. And then I go outside and I see

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the blue line on the ground and I follow it.

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It leaves me right.

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Speaker 2: Out, just out of curiosity? Did you see this blue line?

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Did you see this blue line before this moment as well?

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Speaker 6: Unconsciously?

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Speaker 2: Maybe? Okay, okay, so is it possible?

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Speaker 6: So?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, is it possible? H Rick? I'm not saying this

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is what happened, But is it possible that what you're

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describing is having an idea that you just had this,

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that you knew this line existed, and you were in

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a moment where you were focusing on like how the

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hell do I get out of it? And then you

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just a thought popped in your head, Hey, this blue

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line's there, and you thought maybe I should go follow it,

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and you did and it worked. Do you think maybe

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that might might be what happened? You're excluding a supernaturess

439
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looking for next I'm not excluding the supernatural. I asked

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you if it is possible that there is another explanation.

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Speaker 1: I think there's something we need to clarify because I

442
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took it a different way when he said something so leric.

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We just need a clarification here. When you say you

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prayed and then you saw a blue line at that point,

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do you think the rest of us would have seen

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the blue line? Do you think you do? You mean

447
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you noticed a blue line that was already there, like

448
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on the ground, painted or somehow, or on a map

449
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there was a line, or do you mean more in

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the mystical sense of the line magically appeared to you,

451
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but other people that were there would not have seen it,

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which which meaning do you mean?

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Speaker 6: Okay, while I was praying, it apited in my mind

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and I went outside and it was really painted.

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Speaker 2: Ah, okay, so it is it is a physical line

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that you just thought of. So that's the same thing. Also,

457
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I want to point out that what you are describing

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in a way is an observation. Yeah, which means that

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it's it's you know you It wouldn't be supernatural in

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that case. I have other questions, but I really want

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to get to the bottom of this first, So just

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I want to just ask again you have to understand

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if real real thing. This is a serious talk. In

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my house, I have a hallway that leads away from

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my bedroom, and when I walk down that hallway, it's

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kind of narrow, and the door often slams behind me

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in that bedroom. And it's because of just the air

468
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pressure change as I walk down this hallway and pushes

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air away in front of me, kind of makes a

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vacuum behind me, sucks that door in. It is possible

471
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that it's a goddamn ghost or a fan, or a demon,

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or a leprechaun or some other supernatural thing that is

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actually slamming that door behind me. I'm not discounting a

474
00:22:08,759 --> 00:22:12,920
supernatural explanation. I'm not excluding a supernatural explanation. I just

475
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,440
have a natural explanation that is much more likely. So

476
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,440
I'm kind of going with that until I have something

477
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,440
that can disprove that. Do you understand that difference, because

478
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:25,640
when I said is it possible that there was a

479
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,079
naturalistic way that you could think about this blue line,

480
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,759
you accuse me of deliberately excluding the supernatural, and I didn't.

481
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,960
So do you understand the difference between coming up with

482
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:39,240
an alternative hypothesis versus outright ruling out anything that I

483
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,319
don't like. Do you get how those are different concepts?

484
00:22:41,559 --> 00:22:41,960
Speaker 6: Yeah?

485
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,640
Speaker 2: Okay, great, good. So then back to the original question.

486
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,359
Then is it possible not saying it is what happened,

487
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:52,079
but the original question, is it possible that the situation

488
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,799
you were describing, the experience you had was simply having

489
00:22:55,839 --> 00:22:58,880
an idea? You knew that blue line was there, you

490
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,759
saw it before. You may not have thought about it before,

491
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:04,079
but you had seen it, and now you're in this

492
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,079
situation that's very stressful, and you're thinking, how the hell

493
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:08,599
do I get out of where I'm at? And then

494
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,240
the idea comes to you, maybe I can follow this

495
00:23:11,279 --> 00:23:13,799
blue line, and you interpret that as an answered prayer,

496
00:23:13,799 --> 00:23:16,400
But what it really was was just your brain being

497
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,599
a brain and coming up with an idea. Is that

498
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,680
a possible explanation for what you experienced?

499
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:22,400
Speaker 6: Yeah?

500
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 2: Okay? So now final question, how how did you go

501
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,440
about making the determination that it was not just you

502
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,079
having an idea, which happens to everybody all the time,

503
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:39,319
every day, several times a day, but instead was divine intervention,

504
00:23:39,599 --> 00:23:44,720
an intercessory moment where a supernatural being interfered with your

505
00:23:44,799 --> 00:23:47,960
mind and caused you to think this thing. How did

506
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,720
you determine that it was that that happened and not

507
00:23:51,279 --> 00:23:55,000
the totally mundane reality of just having a thought pop

508
00:23:55,039 --> 00:23:56,880
into your head as happens all the time.

509
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,759
Speaker 6: For it, number one, because I was praying right up

510
00:23:59,799 --> 00:24:02,720
at time. And number two, that's not random reality. It

511
00:24:02,759 --> 00:24:06,079
happens all the time. You don't get solutions popping into

512
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:06,720
your mirth.

513
00:24:06,599 --> 00:24:10,920
Speaker 3: Talking about coincidence all Rick, You're you're you're talking about

514
00:24:11,039 --> 00:24:15,200
literal coincidences and just the basics of thinking. Like this

515
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,079
is how it works. If I if I turned to

516
00:24:18,559 --> 00:24:20,880
Cross and I say man like like what did you

517
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,640
have for breakfast? Or like tell me tell me a

518
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,039
story about you know, when you were a child in

519
00:24:26,079 --> 00:24:29,519
school or something like, it just pops into his fucking mind,

520
00:24:29,559 --> 00:24:33,759
almost like magic. That's that's why we're so confused about consciousness.

521
00:24:33,839 --> 00:24:35,599
Speaker 2: Well, that's that's really what bothers me, is that you're

522
00:24:35,599 --> 00:24:38,000
saying that, like this, this couldn't have been a coincidence.

523
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,480
I was praying and then this thought came to me.

524
00:24:40,839 --> 00:24:46,480
What you just described, Rick, is thinking Answers just pop

525
00:24:46,519 --> 00:24:49,680
into your mind when you think about them. When you

526
00:24:49,799 --> 00:24:52,839
think about a problem, your mind creates an answer. It

527
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:57,440
happens every time I've ever thought about a problem, math, science,

528
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,000
you name it. If I'm thinking about the problem, answers

529
00:25:01,079 --> 00:25:03,119
pop into my mind and they're not all good, but

530
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,440
they are all doing the same thing that you just described.

531
00:25:06,599 --> 00:25:09,839
You were focusing on this problem through prayer, through meditation,

532
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,519
through deep contemplation. However, you had your mind fixed on

533
00:25:13,559 --> 00:25:16,400
this problem and then an idea came to you. How

534
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,480
did you determine that it wasn't just the same thing

535
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,319
as when you stare at a math problem and think, hmm,

536
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:24,519
what could it possible be? Maybe it's this number and

537
00:25:24,559 --> 00:25:28,839
it pops into your mind versus an intercessory being that

538
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,599
came down and fiddled with your brain, Like, how can

539
00:25:31,759 --> 00:25:32,680
you make that distinction?

540
00:25:32,839 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 1: I have a question for you leric that maybe, but

541
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,839
frame this conversation because you your first go to answer

542
00:25:39,039 --> 00:25:43,039
was I prayed and then this thing happened. Now, because

543
00:25:43,039 --> 00:25:45,480
it's prayer, I'm agreeing that. Yeah, you're thinking and you've

544
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,039
got an answer that's mundane, no big deal. But let's

545
00:25:48,079 --> 00:25:51,559
imagine you prayed for the fire hydrant to blow up

546
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,720
and then it blew up, right, So what you're to

547
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,759
use that as a proof or an argument for the

548
00:25:57,799 --> 00:26:01,799
existence of God is to confuse correlation with causation. It's

549
00:26:01,839 --> 00:26:05,359
called post hawk ergo propter hawk. After a thing, therefore

550
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:09,079
because of that thing. Just because you prayed doesn't and

551
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,680
then got an answer, doesn't mean that the prayer caused

552
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,839
the answer. Prayers happen all the time. People pray and

553
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,000
don't go what they want all the time. Ten thousand

554
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:22,079
kids on this planet die every single day of starvation.

555
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,960
Are you telling me their parents aren't praying for salvation.

556
00:26:25,519 --> 00:26:28,960
So your argument comes down to after a thing, therefore

557
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,039
because of a thing, which which is a point of study.

558
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,799
I agree, it's sort of the beginning of the scientific process. Hey,

559
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,240
is this repeatable? Let's do this again and again. Let's

560
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,440
go look at all the parents praying for their starving kids.

561
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,240
Let's look at the people praying for cancer to go away. Magically,

562
00:26:43,279 --> 00:26:45,759
the prayers to make cancer go away work all the time.

563
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,119
The prayers to grow limbs back never happen. That's kind

564
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,559
of interesting, don't you think So? If we take your

565
00:26:51,599 --> 00:26:54,240
first argument of after prayer, therefore because of prayer, and

566
00:26:54,279 --> 00:26:56,559
we apply it to the broader world, we see that

567
00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,519
these things that happen because of prayer are mundane and

568
00:27:00,599 --> 00:27:04,400
the things that would be against everything we know never happen.

569
00:27:04,759 --> 00:27:07,039
So how do you how do you respond to all

570
00:27:07,079 --> 00:27:07,319
of this?

571
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 6: So, first of all, how do you know it never happens?

572
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,240
To the link scro Beck, I've heard stories that that

573
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:14,200
actually happened.

574
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ, Eesus Christ.

575
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 3: Wow, I'm so sorry I did hang on. Wow, I

576
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:25,279
fucking mute you again, ulric ulric Ulrick. I truly truly

577
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,039
believe you are not a fucking idiot.

578
00:27:28,079 --> 00:27:28,400
Speaker 2: Okay.

579
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,400
Speaker 3: I don't think you are the actual dipshit that you've

580
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:39,079
been presenting. Okay, I really do believe you are a functional, rational.

581
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 5: Decently intelligent human being, bro.

582
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 3: And for some reason you came on here and twice

583
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:47,240
have been like, yeah.

584
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:48,640
Speaker 5: Man, I just take people at their word for.

585
00:27:48,599 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 3: Whatever bullshit they spout at me, and then go and

586
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,480
be like, nah, man, I don't just believe everything I hear,

587
00:27:54,599 --> 00:27:56,720
Man Gullible's written on the ceiling in the studio.

588
00:27:56,799 --> 00:27:57,599
Speaker 2: You want to come check.

589
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,440
Speaker 5: I mean, come on, man, you are better than this.

590
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:02,799
Speaker 3: I know you are, and I know you don't accept

591
00:28:02,799 --> 00:28:04,359
things like this in your daily life.

592
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:04,839
Speaker 2: Okay.

593
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:10,599
Speaker 3: Yes, obviously there are stories of bigfoot of limbs growing back,

594
00:28:10,839 --> 00:28:14,720
of pastors being resurrected after being buried for three days.

595
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,000
But you want to know what, there's a billion other

596
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,000
stories on the other side of that.

597
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 2: Scale that totally outweighs that.

598
00:28:23,559 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 1: Man with medical records and photographic app.

599
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 2: Oh my god, those stories don't happen exactly.

600
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 5: It's so weird.

601
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,559
Speaker 3: But like the kid that fell through the ice that

602
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,440
was dead for like twenty minutes or whatever, for some reason,

603
00:28:36,519 --> 00:28:39,440
it happened like back in nineteen seventy eight in some

604
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,480
farm that nobody's really sure what town it was actually in,

605
00:28:42,559 --> 00:28:45,079
and like was it Billy or Timmy or Johnny?

606
00:28:45,079 --> 00:28:45,559
Speaker 1: Does it matter?

607
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,319
Speaker 2: I don't know, fifteen minutes, fenty Fuck it all.

608
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 3: Come on, Ulric, you don't accept this in your daily life, bro,

609
00:28:52,799 --> 00:28:56,000
And you are desperately trying to hold on to some

610
00:28:56,039 --> 00:28:58,640
of these things because they provide you comfort.

611
00:28:58,720 --> 00:28:59,799
Speaker 2: And I understand that.

612
00:29:00,119 --> 00:29:03,119
Speaker 3: I don't have a problem with people, with people accepting

613
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:04,960
some things because it makes them feel better.

614
00:29:05,119 --> 00:29:06,559
Speaker 5: Shit, I do the same thing.

615
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 3: I don't actually know that male puppies will pretend to

616
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,119
be bad at tasks so that female puppies will play

617
00:29:13,119 --> 00:29:13,720
with them longer.

618
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 5: I don't know that that's true, but I live in

619
00:29:16,519 --> 00:29:17,039
that world.

620
00:29:17,119 --> 00:29:19,599
Speaker 3: I accept that because it makes me happy when I

621
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:20,759
go to sleep at night.

622
00:29:20,799 --> 00:29:22,119
Speaker 2: Okay, I just think that's.

623
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,119
Speaker 3: Adorable, But look, that doesn't actually have any bearing on

624
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,559
the reality around me. The stuff that you're talking about

625
00:29:29,839 --> 00:29:32,960
harms you. It has the potential to harm other people.

626
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,680
And there's a reason you don't accept this other crap

627
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,680
in your daily life. Man, I know you're better than this,

628
00:29:38,799 --> 00:29:41,200
ol Rick. I know you are, dude, and I'm sorry

629
00:29:41,279 --> 00:29:43,480
I ranted. I just I don't know. I guess maybe

630
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,119
it was the bats, I got rabies or something on you.

631
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 2: Guys, I'll bring you back on.

632
00:29:48,359 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 3: I'm sorry for yelling at you, but man, I know

633
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:52,240
you're fucking better than this, old Rick.

634
00:29:52,359 --> 00:29:53,279
Speaker 1: What are your thoughts, oll Rick?

635
00:29:53,759 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 6: How does that harm me?

636
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 2: You just say, because.

637
00:29:56,359 --> 00:29:59,279
Speaker 1: Because it makes you gullible? Okay, it makes you. It

638
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,680
puts you further into the realm of gullibility, and gullibility

639
00:30:02,799 --> 00:30:05,519
is a harmful We are all gullible about certain things.

640
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:07,279
If I come up to you and say, you know,

641
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,119
I've got this new company I've heard about that is

642
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,400
doing AI predictive text stuff, then it's going to blow

643
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,799
up and if you give me one hundred thousand dollars,

644
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:18,960
I will invest it for you, and you're going to

645
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,119
get at least a twenty percent annual return. You would

646
00:30:22,119 --> 00:30:24,839
be skeptical of me. You would want things like, hey,

647
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,440
show me financial statements, show me the actual documents that

648
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,480
this company's actually exist, take me to their headquarters. One

649
00:30:30,519 --> 00:30:32,599
hundred grands a lot of money. I would have to

650
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,480
run a huge scam to trick you, because you would

651
00:30:36,519 --> 00:30:39,680
be skeptical of that. You should be that skeptical. I

652
00:30:39,759 --> 00:30:43,039
e question the evidence and come to a reasonable conclusion

653
00:30:43,079 --> 00:30:46,680
about it, about everything. If you believe stories that limbs

654
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,839
grow back, but you explain away why that hasn't resulted

655
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,759
in a Nobel prize, let, what would that look like?

656
00:30:54,279 --> 00:30:56,279
Have you heard of the James River Church? Okay, they

657
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,799
year or two ago said hey, we've had a miracle.

658
00:30:59,839 --> 00:31:02,359
We had a person she lost her toes. We prayed

659
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,279
for her, and the toes have grown back. They didn't

660
00:31:04,279 --> 00:31:06,400
realize the attention they were going to get from the press.

661
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,039
Everybody came in. Somebody set up a website. I pulled

662
00:31:09,039 --> 00:31:11,559
it up now called show me thetoes dot com. All right,

663
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,440
and what happened? Did they show her Did they show

664
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:17,680
her toes? Right? Because they had a video of her

665
00:31:17,799 --> 00:31:20,119
saying I grew my toes back. But as soon as

666
00:31:20,119 --> 00:31:22,920
the world wide press attention came on them, what did

667
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,799
they say? Oh, well, we want to protect her privacy.

668
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,160
We don't want to show this what would have happened

669
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,119
if it was real? Here are her toes. Here are

670
00:31:31,119 --> 00:31:33,440
the medical records. Here are the doctors that examined her.

671
00:31:33,519 --> 00:31:36,119
Here are the records showing they were amputated before. Here's

672
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,720
an examination that shows that they're here. Now, we are

673
00:31:38,759 --> 00:31:40,799
now going to win a Nobel prize, and we are

674
00:31:40,799 --> 00:31:44,759
going to open the church study of religion and God

675
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:49,160
at least as far as amputation repairs in every single

676
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:50,839
university around the world. There will be a whole new

677
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,119
scientific field of study here, right, How is this happening?

678
00:31:54,319 --> 00:31:56,920
That's not what happened. They just said, oh, well, she

679
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,799
doesn't really want to share. So what's more likely here? Right?

680
00:32:00,039 --> 00:32:02,799
What's more likely God grew back the toes or people

681
00:32:02,839 --> 00:32:06,599
occasionally lie from profit or fun. You don't want to

682
00:32:06,599 --> 00:32:08,759
be the gullible person, whether it's a little thing about

683
00:32:09,319 --> 00:32:12,039
I grew my toes back, or I should invest one

684
00:32:12,079 --> 00:32:15,359
hundred grand or there's not a tiger in that grass,

685
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,680
so I'm just going to walk over there. You shouldn't

686
00:32:17,759 --> 00:32:20,599
be gullible. That's harmful. Do you understand that?

687
00:32:21,119 --> 00:32:21,319
Speaker 2: Yes?

688
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:26,079
Speaker 6: But I personal people who have who got healed from cancer.

689
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,079
Speaker 1: I was healed from cancer. I've I was stage four

690
00:32:30,359 --> 00:32:35,920
coorectal cancer. I was diagnosed three days before my fortieth birthday.

691
00:32:36,119 --> 00:32:39,000
You know what cured me. It wasn't my mother in

692
00:32:39,119 --> 00:32:41,720
law who prayed for me, or my friends who prayed

693
00:32:41,759 --> 00:32:43,759
for me and all of that. It was going and

694
00:32:43,759 --> 00:32:47,079
finding the best medical help I could get, and quite frankly,

695
00:32:47,119 --> 00:32:50,319
the fact that I lived three years. I got diagnosed

696
00:32:50,319 --> 00:32:54,599
three years later than my being thirty six. Because if

697
00:32:54,599 --> 00:32:56,839
I was diagnosed about three or five years earlier than

698
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,519
I was, I would not be here today. Because science

699
00:32:59,559 --> 00:33:01,920
fixed the problem, and because I want a genetic lottery.

700
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,480
I responded really well to the chemo. So how do

701
00:33:04,519 --> 00:33:06,720
you detect the difference between me and your friend who

702
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,400
says God cured me? Because there's a ton of people

703
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:11,720
like me who just go to the doctor, they get fixed,

704
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,240
a healed of cancer, all sorts of things, and a

705
00:33:15,279 --> 00:33:18,319
few people who'll say, hey, they cured my glaucoma or

706
00:33:18,319 --> 00:33:20,759
my cancer or whatever. How do we tell the difference

707
00:33:20,759 --> 00:33:21,359
between the two?

708
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, funny enough, We've had prayer and disease for a

709
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,559
really long time in human history, and only when medical

710
00:33:26,599 --> 00:33:28,839
science came on to the scene, the disease is starting.

711
00:33:29,039 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 7: Right.

712
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,519
Speaker 1: Steve Jobs got cancer, chose not to get treatment, go

713
00:33:33,559 --> 00:33:35,559
with the spiritual approach, and he died. How do you

714
00:33:35,559 --> 00:33:37,519
explain that, right, Bob Marley too?

715
00:33:37,599 --> 00:33:40,079
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, So I mean this in the.

716
00:33:40,039 --> 00:33:44,039
Speaker 1: Best, best way, the honest way. Put away the childish things. Right,

717
00:33:44,279 --> 00:33:49,000
you are grasping for excuses to be gullible. Don't be gullible.

718
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,200
You can still live your spiritual life, but then acknowledge

719
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,359
the reality of the world. We have not detected a

720
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,599
supernatural almost by definition. As soon as somebody does, they

721
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,160
will win a Nobel prize. And everything you've ever heard

722
00:34:02,279 --> 00:34:04,839
is just stories and miracles, and there is a big

723
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,079
declining curve of miracles happening with the invention of the camera.

724
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 3: And real quick, I know we shouted a lot at you, Alrick,

725
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:12,880
and I promise I'll shut up after this. I promise

726
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,280
I will, But just real quick on that point, they

727
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:17,599
pay me not to man.

728
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 2: Very little.

729
00:34:19,519 --> 00:34:24,119
Speaker 3: Uh So, when you actually accept that approach that you

730
00:34:24,159 --> 00:34:27,639
were just talking about as a believer, when you truly

731
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,679
stop trying to shield your belief from all of the

732
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:37,400
very very available evidence around us, you actually get a

733
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:38,239
stronger faith.

734
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:38,639
Speaker 2: Now.

735
00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:41,159
Speaker 3: I know that's crazy a host on the AXP is

736
00:34:41,159 --> 00:34:43,639
telling you how to get a stronger faith, But dude, like,

737
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:48,239
actually delve into this stuff. I know so many pastors,

738
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,199
now you would be surprised, and so many of them

739
00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:54,599
have absolutely no problem just being like, yeah, you know what, Honestly,

740
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,159
I don't really have a super good reason to believe,

741
00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,960
like Jesus comes back in the form of crackers or anything,

742
00:35:00,119 --> 00:35:01,239
but I just kind of do it.

743
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:01,519
Speaker 2: You know.

744
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,119
Speaker 3: You know what's cool about them? Those are the people

745
00:35:04,119 --> 00:35:07,239
that are regularly going out in their community and doing good.

746
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,920
Those are the people that are actively fighting for a

747
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,639
better world. And they don't have to pretend that their

748
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,360
God made some boat two thousand years ago and flooded

749
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,960
the whole fucking earth to do that. You can still

750
00:35:20,119 --> 00:35:22,840
have all of the best things that you get out

751
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,519
of this l rick and just put away all the bullshit, man,

752
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:27,719
like join the secular side.

753
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,159
Speaker 1: The water is great, man, and what sorr is saying

754
00:35:31,199 --> 00:35:34,440
is true. You better arm yourself to detect what fraudulent

755
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,719
preachers pastors right, because we know they're out there. If

756
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,880
you come to a point where you are accepting the

757
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,119
limitations of your own knowledge but also realizing that people

758
00:35:44,119 --> 00:35:46,920
will lie for fun and profit, you can seek out

759
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,639
a community that is as spiritual as you but is

760
00:35:49,679 --> 00:35:53,519
not vulnerable to these hucksters or two false claims that

761
00:35:53,559 --> 00:35:56,400
are based on religion. And more importantly, you also stop

762
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,280
giving cover to those in that same community who would

763
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,039
do harm in the name of religion. So distancing yourself

764
00:36:02,039 --> 00:36:06,079
from excuses and dealing with reality does not necessarily mean

765
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,039
you are going to lose something as a person. I

766
00:36:09,079 --> 00:36:11,960
agree with you. I think he will gain a tremendous amount.

767
00:36:12,079 --> 00:36:14,719
Speaker 2: Absolutely, man, Absolutely, what do you think, Loric? We've said

768
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:16,199
a lot of things to you here. I still have

769
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:17,719
questions for you, but I want to hear what you

770
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,480
say to all this just the concept of skepticism as

771
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,480
a general good atheist or otherwise, what do you think?

772
00:36:23,559 --> 00:36:28,039
Speaker 6: But two things like like the example I gave an example,

773
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,119
you just gave that you were huge from concepts, so

774
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,559
people pray for you. And then the medicine helping you.

775
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:36,239
How can that not call together?

776
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,760
Speaker 1: It is the same thing, because I'll tell you why, Jared,

777
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,000
A very simple There's a very simple example, and this

778
00:36:41,079 --> 00:36:43,039
is what we were talking about. Post hawk ergo propter

779
00:36:43,199 --> 00:36:46,400
tap after the prayer. Therefore, because of the prayer, one

780
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,719
hundred percent of people that have been cured after receiving

781
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:55,199
medication were cured after they receive medication. Of those people,

782
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,760
less than one hundred percent were cured after they received prayer.

783
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,119
Speaker 5: Prayer seems to be the excuse we.

784
00:37:01,079 --> 00:37:05,039
Speaker 1: Give when people are cured. But medication is the consistent thing.

785
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,199
Very few people are cured of cancer without medification, but

786
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:10,880
we're aware of natural remission. But when I take those

787
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,480
groups and break them up into people who were prayed

788
00:37:13,519 --> 00:37:16,519
for and people who weren't, we don't see a difference.

789
00:37:16,519 --> 00:37:19,920
There was something called the National Prayer Study. The Great

790
00:37:20,039 --> 00:37:22,800
Prayer Study was done by the Templeton Foundation, a very

791
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:27,760
religious organization who honestly seeks out evidence of God. I've

792
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,519
respect them a lot. They don't sit around and gaze

793
00:37:30,519 --> 00:37:32,360
at their belly buttons and say I guess I believe

794
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,760
in ghosts because I need to believe in God. They

795
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,079
go out and say what proof can we find? Because

796
00:37:37,079 --> 00:37:39,400
they want to be scientific about it. They studied the

797
00:37:39,519 --> 00:37:42,760
largest study of people who had serious heart conditions and

798
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,599
were divided into two halves. Some were prayed for and

799
00:37:46,679 --> 00:37:49,960
some were not. There was no difference between the groups

800
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,280
in results. This is called innecessory prayer. God did not

801
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,599
intercede in a greater rate between those two groups. In fact,

802
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,519
there were subgroups where some of the people were told

803
00:37:59,599 --> 00:38:02,639
they were being prayed for and some were those that

804
00:38:02,679 --> 00:38:04,920
weren't that were prayed for were not told that they

805
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,239
were being prayed for. The people who were told they

806
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:12,000
were being prayed for actually had statistically significant worse medical outcomes.

807
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:15,119
So every time we look at this, we don't see

808
00:38:15,119 --> 00:38:18,679
what you're claiming because of after prayer, therefore because of prayer.

809
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:20,039
That's my response to you.

810
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,760
Speaker 2: And the big thing that like what's so frustrating about

811
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,320
this will work is that we literally just covered and

812
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,000
we're talking about like, you know, well, these people were

813
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,320
prayed for and then they got healed, Okay. Is that

814
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,840
the only thing that happened or not? Was there a

815
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,079
bunch of other shit? Maybe the janitor walked by with

816
00:38:38,079 --> 00:38:42,239
with ever green scented stuff just instead of lemon scented

817
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,320
cleaner today, was that? What did it? What about all

818
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,719
the other times that something else happened and the similar result.

819
00:38:49,079 --> 00:38:52,320
You could analyze all of these different options and come

820
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,760
up with actual answers, but you don't. You find something

821
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,079
that feels good and you believe it because you want

822
00:38:58,119 --> 00:38:59,480
to believe it, because you want to believe it because

823
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,000
you want to believe. That's not how thinking works.

824
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 1: To yaunting the hits and ignoring the mists.

825
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 2: Yes, and what Graham, Graham, you took the words right

826
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:08,760
out of my mouth. Is like the thing is, in

827
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,760
these situations, there was a lot of things happening that

828
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:16,000
helped these people get sick get better, namely, doctors. People

829
00:39:16,119 --> 00:39:21,079
actually perform medical miracles, real miracles, actual medicine. Elliott pointed

830
00:39:21,079 --> 00:39:24,360
this out earlier. Funny how disease has been around for

831
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,079
all of human history, and prayer has been around for

832
00:39:27,119 --> 00:39:30,880
all of human history. It's only when medical science advanced

833
00:39:31,199 --> 00:39:33,880
that we started seeing the disease go away, and the

834
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,159
prayer is now what is given the credit. It's ridiculous.

835
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,199
If you were honest about this, you would accept the

836
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,079
fact that it's I'm not saying it is what happened.

837
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:47,599
But it's possible that the medicine is what fixed these people.

838
00:39:47,679 --> 00:39:51,360
The medicine is what cured these people. The doctors are

839
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,800
what did the work to cure these people. And if

840
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,280
you now have two options, either it was God or

841
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,840
it was the doctors, you can now run some tests.

842
00:39:59,039 --> 00:40:01,920
And the Templeton found Foundation did and what they found

843
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,960
out the actual science, science done by people who want

844
00:40:06,079 --> 00:40:10,239
to believe like you do, who are biased in your direction.

845
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,519
If anything, they found that this doesn't work. In fact,

846
00:40:13,519 --> 00:40:17,239
it almost usually makes things worse. It's better for people

847
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,519
to go to a doctoring medicine than it is for

848
00:40:19,639 --> 00:40:22,280
them to pray. I have different questions for you, and

849
00:40:22,559 --> 00:40:24,039
I don't know if we're gonna have time for any

850
00:40:24,039 --> 00:40:24,280
of them.

851
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 1: Probably I'll just end by saying there is a county

852
00:40:27,159 --> 00:40:31,360
in Idaho called Canyon County. It has a graveyard populated

853
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,559
with six hundred gravestones of children. Because that county is

854
00:40:34,559 --> 00:40:37,039
the last remain that state is the last remaining state

855
00:40:37,159 --> 00:40:40,960
in this country that gives an legal exemption to parents

856
00:40:41,159 --> 00:40:43,880
who let their kids die because they refuse to give

857
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:48,320
them proper medical care and instead anoint them with oil

858
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,800
as instructed by the Bible and pray over them. And

859
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,159
we have cases of children dying of very ear and

860
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:56,840
ear infection that could have been treated with a drop,

861
00:40:57,039 --> 00:40:59,119
and they die because it goes to their brain. With

862
00:40:59,199 --> 00:41:03,039
the most faithful people in the world praying over their

863
00:41:03,079 --> 00:41:05,360
sick children day in and day out, to the point

864
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,840
that documentaries have been made about this, and why has

865
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,639
that law not been changed because people who are Christian

866
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:12,880
keep saying, I don't want to vote down a law

867
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,159
that favors other people's religion. I don't want to infear

868
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:18,719
with that. That's the harm of what you're talking about.

869
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,280
If you just say prayer works because I saw it

870
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,159
work one time, I think you lead to this conclusion.

871
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:30,079
It's despicable, quite frankly, stop allowing this sort of thought

872
00:41:30,159 --> 00:41:33,679
process when you know what it's going to do. Yes,

873
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,079
you are, quite frankly, absolutely, if you've been explained, if

874
00:41:37,159 --> 00:41:39,079
this has been explained to you time and time out,

875
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:43,119
every of course it's a fallacy. But I'm speaking in

876
00:41:43,159 --> 00:41:47,079
a broader metaphorical sense. The bigger the Christian community is

877
00:41:47,119 --> 00:41:49,440
the reason that law is still on the books. It

878
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,440
has made it out of committee. They have tried to

879
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:54,280
get rid of this law multiple times. It always makes

880
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,079
it out of committee. The people who actually examine it

881
00:41:57,199 --> 00:41:58,679
are like, we need to get rid of this. It

882
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,840
goes to the it's a unicameral house and i Idaho,

883
00:42:02,039 --> 00:42:05,239
it gets voted down and every single person that votes

884
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:07,519
against it is willing to speak on the record. The

885
00:42:07,599 --> 00:42:10,679
politicians say, I'm not going to vote against fellow Christians.

886
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:17,519
So having these irrational views contributes to harm abstractly, but

887
00:42:17,679 --> 00:42:21,480
it does, so, Yes, I do blame you one iota.

888
00:42:21,599 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 2: I also want to point out the fact that very

889
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:26,440
funny for you to say that we are committing a

890
00:42:26,519 --> 00:42:31,440
fallacy here with your entire goddamn argument is lots of

891
00:42:31,519 --> 00:42:34,960
people believe this, so it's probably true, which is follow

892
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:39,639
me here called the bandwagon fallacy, which is an actual

893
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:42,719
logical fallacy, not the shit that you were claiming as

894
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,199
a fallacy at the beginning, and Elliott had to correct you.

895
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,199
Most importantly, you talk about the harm from this shit.

896
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,239
Oric We've talked a million times. You wouldn't believe the dumb,

897
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:54,280
homophobic and transphobic shit that you do. If you didn't

898
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,079
believe the dumb supernatural shit that you do. Oh yes,

899
00:42:57,119 --> 00:42:59,880
this causes harm. You are an example of that. Yes,

900
00:43:00,159 --> 00:43:01,960
I do blame you for a lot of things. Grow

901
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:02,559
the fuck up.

902
00:43:02,639 --> 00:43:04,760
Speaker 3: And I know, I know we I know we all

903
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,800
heard it. Yes, I know we all heard it. And

904
00:43:08,079 --> 00:43:10,079
there were just too many other things we had that

905
00:43:10,119 --> 00:43:13,159
we had to touch on. But yeah, remember.

906
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 5: When he gave his definition for supernatural.

907
00:43:16,039 --> 00:43:21,159
Speaker 3: Yes, and one of the definitions was that it was undetectable. Yeah,

908
00:43:21,519 --> 00:43:22,800
how he detected the ship?

909
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I wanted to that was one of

910
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:26,840
the questions. I know, we don't have time for. One

911
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:28,320
of the questions I wanted to ask was how do

912
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:31,079
you tell the difference between something that is completely unobservable

913
00:43:31,079 --> 00:43:35,079
and undetectable and ship that isn't real? And apparently it's

914
00:43:35,199 --> 00:43:38,119
toes growing or something. I don't know.

915
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,599
Speaker 1: I feel dot com ladies and gentlemen, don't.

916
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:44,639
Speaker 2: I feel like we should have encouraged people to go

917
00:43:44,679 --> 00:43:45,440
to something that has that.

918
00:43:45,519 --> 00:43:49,599
Speaker 3: We had a toe conversation, We've had butthole conversation.

919
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:51,840
Speaker 5: I mean, honestly, this has been a I've.

920
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:55,159
Speaker 1: Had a ball.

921
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:57,679
Speaker 2: The last time I talked to Orick, he ended on

922
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,039
screaming about how he didn't want to talk about my penis,

923
00:44:00,079 --> 00:44:02,960
And you know, what until he's ready to I don't

924
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:05,320
want to take another call from him, call in.

925
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:08,280
Speaker 3: And talk about him specifically.

926
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've we've talked a few times. It's never been pleasant.

927
00:44:12,159 --> 00:44:15,719
But I tell you what, I have terrible news, sad

928
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,480
news for everybody out there, and that is that we

929
00:44:18,559 --> 00:44:20,280
have to change hosts, which means you.

930
00:44:20,159 --> 00:44:20,559
Speaker 3: Have to.

931
00:44:22,599 --> 00:44:24,840
Speaker 1: Have to take a bus both of us.

932
00:44:25,039 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sorry, I have terrible news.

933
00:44:27,599 --> 00:44:32,559
Speaker 1: Foot I'll stay here and starve life as hell, and

934
00:44:32,599 --> 00:44:33,880
I am trapped in this studio.

935
00:44:34,199 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 2: I just wake up here times and it's it's a nightmare.

936
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:41,079
But while I also I do have this terrible news

937
00:44:41,079 --> 00:44:43,000
that we have to get rid of these wonderful hosts,

938
00:44:43,039 --> 00:44:46,159
I also have fantastic and that fantastic news is that

939
00:44:46,199 --> 00:44:49,320
we have objectively Dan and J Mike who are now

940
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:51,199
going to be joining me for the show and who

941
00:44:51,199 --> 00:44:54,679
are creeping in beside me at this very moment for

942
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:59,000
your soon to be viewing pleasure. Again, that call, it

943
00:44:59,039 --> 00:45:01,960
got confrontation, but it got confrontational because the person on

944
00:45:02,039 --> 00:45:05,559
the on the phone was notorious for being confrontational. If

945
00:45:05,599 --> 00:45:07,920
you want to talk to atheists who disbelieve in the

946
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,039
things you believe in, we're nice. We're usually nice. Unless

947
00:45:11,039 --> 00:45:13,039
you're mean, We're nice. And the numbers on the bomb

948
00:45:13,039 --> 00:45:14,679
of screen and there's also a weblink that you can

949
00:45:14,679 --> 00:45:16,920
call into as well. But for right now, I'm delighted

950
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:20,079
to introduce you to Jmiken objectively Dan. Everybody look at

951
00:45:20,079 --> 00:45:23,440
them all right, so handsome.

952
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:26,159
Speaker 4: That would be the first time I've heard that.

953
00:45:26,679 --> 00:45:29,880
Speaker 8: And on, come on, remember that girl that was saying

954
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:31,800
you look like Rasputin when we were running.

955
00:45:31,599 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 2: Down down the other night.

956
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:34,119
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's true.

957
00:45:34,119 --> 00:45:35,320
Speaker 2: That was good. That was a compliment.

958
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 7: And then like and then someone like drives by in

959
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,079
one of those passenger bikes and it's just like.

960
00:45:40,039 --> 00:45:42,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they're playing rasp Pootin.

961
00:45:42,199 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 8: And then this trunker was like, oh my god, like

962
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:46,679
grass Poodin is here, and she was like, it's my

963
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:47,559
boyfriend's birthday.

964
00:45:47,559 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 2: Say he's his birthday, and you were just like, I'm Rasputin.

965
00:45:51,519 --> 00:45:54,320
It was really funny. It was great. Hey, by the way,

966
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,039
really quickly, we are running a direct fundraiser for the

967
00:45:57,079 --> 00:45:59,920
ACA below the chat right now. One hundred percent of

968
00:46:00,079 --> 00:46:02,679
donations go to the Atheist Community of Austin. YouTube does

969
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:04,199
not take a cut, so if you want to support

970
00:46:04,199 --> 00:46:05,400
this show and all the other things that we do

971
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:07,920
here at the ACA. Please consider leaving a donation right there,

972
00:46:08,079 --> 00:46:10,559
also happy to announce it. On August twenty ninth, the

973
00:46:10,559 --> 00:46:13,920
Atheist Community of Austin will be hosting a presentation by

974
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,840
my son Seth Andrews, with an introduction by a genetically

975
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:22,400
modified skeptic and the antibot. Join us at the Round

976
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:25,639
Rock Public Library for an evening of pizza, conversation, and

977
00:46:25,679 --> 00:46:26,440
critical thinking.

978
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 8: Speaking of genetically modified, I wonder how that whole situation works,

979
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:37,440
because you know that's pretty with the pizza, well sunshine right, Yeah.

980
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:39,760
Speaker 2: This is great. I kind of have to have faith.

981
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:41,880
Speaker 8: I like coming to the studio with the tablet and

982
00:46:42,039 --> 00:46:43,559
the first thing I see on the screen to show

983
00:46:43,599 --> 00:46:44,039
me the toes.

984
00:46:45,039 --> 00:46:50,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great. It it leaves a lot of questions. Nobody. Yeah, anyway,

985
00:46:50,559 --> 00:46:53,599
learn more about the thinking atheist who is coming to

986
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,280
the public library here at tiny dot c slash evening

987
00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:59,559
with set and Last but not least, before we jump

988
00:46:59,599 --> 00:47:02,320
into our call, can we thank the crew for a second. Yes,

989
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:05,320
let's thank them cruise check those guys out. What then?

990
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:09,119
Tina is taking a call right now. She is currently

991
00:47:09,519 --> 00:47:12,840
helping us make more content incredible. Thank you all so

992
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:14,840
much for everything that you do to make this show possible.

993
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:17,960
We appreciate and thank you at home for watching these

994
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:19,400
shows and doing any of these shows and being a

995
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:21,920
part of this community. You also make these shows possible.

996
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:23,719
We wouldn't have a show to produce if we didn't

997
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,159
have cool cats like you to watch them. And with that,

998
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:30,400
I'm ready to jump right in to my number six here.

999
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:34,039
Let's talk to Caleb pronounce he him calling in all

1000
00:47:34,119 --> 00:47:38,159
the way from Wallab the Armpits, who says that God

1001
00:47:38,559 --> 00:47:41,760
is existence itself. Caleb, you were on the Atheenys Experience

1002
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:43,119
and J Mike objectively Dan.

1003
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 4: Mereta Caleb, it is a question, So I'm not sure

1004
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:46,760
if that's what it is.

1005
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:49,320
Speaker 2: A question. Caleb. You may believe what I just said.

1006
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:52,400
You definitely believe. Hi. How are you welcome to the

1007
00:47:53,039 --> 00:47:55,800
How you guys doing good? Great man? Great good?

1008
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 9: Yeah?

1009
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:59,079
Speaker 2: So I use I put that question in. I didn't

1010
00:47:59,119 --> 00:47:59,679
have like that was.

1011
00:47:59,679 --> 00:48:01,119
Speaker 9: Just like a the best of that I could word it,

1012
00:48:01,119 --> 00:48:03,000
but basically let me let me explain it like this.

1013
00:48:03,159 --> 00:48:06,480
So I just I just came from mass I'm like Catholic,

1014
00:48:06,559 --> 00:48:09,559
but you know, not not like very sure. I'm like

1015
00:48:09,679 --> 00:48:11,280
mostly sure, I'm Catholic, but I'm.

1016
00:48:11,159 --> 00:48:12,079
Speaker 1: Not one hundred percent.

1017
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:15,840
Speaker 9: And I had this conversation with a friends right after Mass.

1018
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:18,519
I asked him, you know, I'm kind of struggling, like

1019
00:48:18,559 --> 00:48:21,159
I'm not sure God is real, Like I'm not confident

1020
00:48:21,199 --> 00:48:23,599
that he is. I can't walk up to somebody and say, hey,

1021
00:48:23,599 --> 00:48:24,440
I know God's real.

1022
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:25,079
Speaker 2: Here's how I know.

1023
00:48:25,119 --> 00:48:27,320
Speaker 9: I can't be completely sure of that, And so I

1024
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:29,599
just tried asking him from the view of a skeptic,

1025
00:48:29,639 --> 00:48:32,159
because you know, my parents maid me be skeptical about

1026
00:48:32,159 --> 00:48:34,559
other people, and I still try to be like that mostly.

1027
00:48:34,599 --> 00:48:37,559
And I asked him, like, you know, you know, my friends, how.

1028
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 2: Do you know God's real?

1029
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,599
Speaker 9: And he's like, okay, well, you know, I have a

1030
00:48:41,599 --> 00:48:42,440
problem with the question.

1031
00:48:42,639 --> 00:48:44,400
Speaker 2: I was like, what do you mean? And so he.

1032
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:47,639
Speaker 9: Said, well, well God, well you can't say that you

1033
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:52,440
prove God exists because God his existence itself. It's like

1034
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:56,239
saying does existence exist? He says, like that basically doesn't

1035
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:57,719
make sense. And so I was like, okay, well, can

1036
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,679
you you know, do you think do you think that

1037
00:49:00,679 --> 00:49:01,719
that statement makes sense?

1038
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,239
Speaker 2: I what I know?

1039
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:07,679
Speaker 9: I know that existence is real, like we can all

1040
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:11,719
understand that the universe, everything around us is real, it exists.

1041
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:13,039
Speaker 2: How do we like.

1042
00:49:13,159 --> 00:49:15,559
Speaker 9: That demands an explanation, and how do we go about

1043
00:49:15,599 --> 00:49:17,599
determining you know, what is the explanation for that?

1044
00:49:17,679 --> 00:49:18,800
Speaker 4: Well, that might be a separate thing.

1045
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:21,320
Speaker 7: The question on like the table of whether or not

1046
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:25,039
God is existence itself sounds like a type of category

1047
00:49:25,039 --> 00:49:28,000
air or something. It's like you're confusing like a property

1048
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:30,559
or a predicate that you'd use to describe a subject

1049
00:49:30,599 --> 00:49:33,079
with the subject itself, right. So you're like, you're like,

1050
00:49:33,199 --> 00:49:35,400
because you know, like if that person went up to

1051
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:37,800
somebody who thinks that like existence is a property of

1052
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:40,280
some object, or it's a predicate that we use to

1053
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:42,079
to like ascribe.

1054
00:49:41,599 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 4: To some object, like the ball exists, they're not going

1055
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:44,159
to be.

1056
00:49:44,199 --> 00:49:47,039
Speaker 7: Very compelled by when someone says, well, God is existence itself,

1057
00:49:47,039 --> 00:49:49,159
because what they're going to say is like you're conflating

1058
00:49:49,199 --> 00:49:51,519
something that's like a property if that's their view, or

1059
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:55,920
some predicate usage in the language with the subject itself, right.

1060
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:59,480
It seems really confused. It's like a painting a dream

1061
00:49:59,559 --> 00:50:01,320
blue or something. It just seems kind of like a

1062
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:02,199
weird statement.

1063
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:04,639
Speaker 2: That's why we keep j Mike around making cool ast

1064
00:50:04,679 --> 00:50:06,719
words like credica predo's subject.

1065
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:09,760
Speaker 7: We're supposed to learn these terms school guys, right right,

1066
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:13,519
let me you know what I'm.

1067
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:15,639
Speaker 9: Saying, kind of getting it, I need it. I definitely

1068
00:50:15,679 --> 00:50:16,280
did anything about that.

1069
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 2: Let let let me give.

1070
00:50:17,199 --> 00:50:19,440
Speaker 9: You an Let me give you an example of something

1071
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,199
that I think can maybe help expand upon them. I'm

1072
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:24,199
sure you guys have probably heard about what is it?

1073
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:24,320
Speaker 6: No?

1074
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:26,039
Speaker 4: Go ahead, yeah, go ahead, Okay.

1075
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:26,039
Speaker 2: I'll go on.

1076
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:28,159
Speaker 9: Uh So, I'm sure you guys have heard about Saint

1077
00:50:28,159 --> 00:50:31,000
Thomas Aquinas. He's like one of the most famous philosophers

1078
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,320
and theologians in the Catholic Church. And one thing that

1079
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:38,000
he really he really liked studying Aristotle, and he liked

1080
00:50:38,039 --> 00:50:41,280
learning about how he perceived like what is existence, essence?

1081
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:45,239
All these nebulous concepts. And he basically made an observation.

1082
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:47,719
And I think this observation makes sense. But I'm just

1083
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:49,000
I want I want to hear what you guys think.

1084
00:50:49,079 --> 00:50:54,519
Speaker 7: So basically, so I'm definitely down to talk about it.

1085
00:50:54,599 --> 00:50:58,639
Speaker 9: Yeah awesome, Yeah, well, so basically it's kind of like this,

1086
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:01,760
so we can see seeing move, like we observe things moving,

1087
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:05,320
maybe not even just physical things but just the nature

1088
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:08,480
of things change over time, Like we observe that change

1089
00:51:08,519 --> 00:51:10,639
is always a force and that things move well.

1090
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:12,559
Speaker 2: So basically we know.

1091
00:51:12,559 --> 00:51:16,880
Speaker 9: From our experience that when something moved, something has pushed it.

1092
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:18,719
Speaker 2: Because that's just that's all the evidence that we have.

1093
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:21,519
Speaker 9: We don't have any evidence, any firstthand examples of something

1094
00:51:21,599 --> 00:51:24,199
moving that didn't push it, or something that changed that

1095
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:26,440
didn't make it change, or anything.

1096
00:51:26,119 --> 00:51:27,159
Speaker 2: Like that, and that.

1097
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:29,840
Speaker 7: Yeah, you want real quick, just just for breave, just

1098
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:31,679
for brevity, you just real quick, like you you're thinking

1099
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,079
of this idea, like you have the hand and a stick,

1100
00:51:34,159 --> 00:51:36,800
and you push the stick, which your hand moves the stick,

1101
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:38,920
which moves the ball right, and then that moves the

1102
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,079
ball rolling or it hits another rock like you're you're

1103
00:51:41,199 --> 00:51:43,199
What you want to do is talk about some types

1104
00:51:43,199 --> 00:51:46,079
of considerations from motion and try to work your way

1105
00:51:46,119 --> 00:51:48,920
back right to this kind of to this terminous right

1106
00:51:49,119 --> 00:51:50,400
yea or the terminus right?

1107
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:50,880
Speaker 2: Is that the idea?

1108
00:51:51,079 --> 00:51:54,039
Speaker 9: Yeah, what's the unmoved mover Basically, yeah, because it doesn't

1109
00:51:54,079 --> 00:51:56,199
make sense for it to be infinitely regressible.

1110
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:58,079
Speaker 7: So okay, we'll have to return to that because I

1111
00:51:58,079 --> 00:51:59,880
don't know what you mean by it doesn't make sense now,

1112
00:52:00,159 --> 00:52:03,039
like if that's some type of personal incredulity maybe like

1113
00:52:03,199 --> 00:52:05,800
you can't imagine it, Like I understand that's.

1114
00:52:05,599 --> 00:52:07,280
Speaker 2: Something, you know, I just don't get it on there. Yeah,

1115
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:09,360
and that's something I wouldn't I didn't understand it. Yeah,

1116
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:09,719
and I don't.

1117
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:11,760
Speaker 7: Yeah. I don't want to like bash you and be

1118
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:13,800
like oh, it's so easy to understand it, you know,

1119
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:16,119
like it's something that will give people a hang up,

1120
00:52:16,159 --> 00:52:17,440
like how do I get to the present moment with

1121
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:19,639
an infinite series of causal events or something like, I

1122
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,280
completely understand the kind of hang up that some people have,

1123
00:52:23,159 --> 00:52:24,599
you know, I don't think there's a contradiction that well,

1124
00:52:24,639 --> 00:52:26,039
let's put a pin on that. Let's like save that

1125
00:52:26,159 --> 00:52:28,280
for a second. There's a little bit something there's something

1126
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:30,639
more robust that might be going on in these like

1127
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:33,800
tomistic metaphysics when you talk about like it's not merely

1128
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:36,039
just kind of like these moved mover kind of things.

1129
00:52:36,119 --> 00:52:38,400
It's that there's a like a theology and there's an

1130
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:41,079
argument in mind that God is also the sustainer of

1131
00:52:41,119 --> 00:52:44,159
these objects, like he sustains them in existence. Right, is

1132
00:52:44,159 --> 00:52:46,519
that something you you you've heard as well, yeah, I.

1133
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:48,280
Speaker 9: Brought this up to my friend and he says that, like,

1134
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:50,880
oh yeah, there's constant like gravity is a constant, like

1135
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:53,840
that's always the same or something like you know, temperature

1136
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:55,920
is always the same. There's a lot of these constants

1137
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:58,880
that are constantly that that that are that you know,

1138
00:52:59,079 --> 00:53:01,519
they don't ever change. That's always how they are, and

1139
00:53:01,559 --> 00:53:04,360
that that has to you know, something to keep that going.

1140
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:05,519
Speaker 2: That's kind of what he was saying.

1141
00:53:05,599 --> 00:53:07,599
Speaker 7: Yeah, And but when you look at this, like if

1142
00:53:07,639 --> 00:53:09,480
I was to be as like humble as I could

1143
00:53:09,519 --> 00:53:11,360
and just want to compare the kind of views, right,

1144
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:13,280
like we treat them like their hypotheses, and we're trying

1145
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:16,920
to explain this data of motion or these things existing

1146
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,920
or going sustaining causes, right, they sustain in existence. If

1147
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:23,880
I have a view where instead of thinking that God's

1148
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:27,400
doing all this work like sustaining Me and Elliot were

1149
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:28,880
talking about this in the hotel room because he was

1150
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:30,599
kind of like it's almost like give like these infinite

1151
00:53:30,679 --> 00:53:32,960
kind of gods that are sustaining these things or something like,

1152
00:53:33,159 --> 00:53:36,079
and you can get a lot more like your hypothesis

1153
00:53:36,079 --> 00:53:38,239
isn't going to be overinflated with this, like weird stuff.

1154
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:41,519
If you just have this assumption in mind that objects

1155
00:53:41,639 --> 00:53:45,880
have this call it existential inertia. They have this power

1156
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:47,199
to persist in existence.

1157
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:47,639
Speaker 6: Right.

1158
00:53:47,639 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 7: It's a power that objects have and until something like

1159
00:53:50,039 --> 00:53:52,760
knocks it out of existence, you don't need like agency

1160
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:56,280
sustaining it. It's a property that they have in themselves.

1161
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:56,559
Speaker 3: Right.

1162
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 7: And I've gotten rid of all this god baggage and

1163
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:02,239
this foreign on ptology that is hard to describe. It's

1164
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:04,639
like outside of space and all this kind of stuff.

1165
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:07,599
So I don't see the like the advantage of this argument.

1166
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:11,719
And I'll try to finish this up. Tomism has highly

1167
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:14,840
contentious metaphysical assumptions. If you came to me and tried

1168
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:16,960
to get me to accept this, I'm going to be like, well,

1169
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:19,960
this assumes the falsity of my thesis, which is existential inertia.

1170
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:22,599
I don't need deposit things sustaining them. I kind of

1171
00:54:22,599 --> 00:54:24,639
side with the empirical sciences, and I'm just like, well,

1172
00:54:24,639 --> 00:54:26,440
this seems to be like philosophically, seems like they have

1173
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:28,840
this kind of this persistence of existence on their own.

1174
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:30,840
Speaker 5: I don't need anything else, right, But I don't know

1175
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:31,480
what you think about that.

1176
00:54:31,639 --> 00:54:33,679
Speaker 7: I'm just kind of pointing out that in order to

1177
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:36,679
kind of get off the table before we even get

1178
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:40,039
to like certain premises of this argument, I'm going to

1179
00:54:40,079 --> 00:54:44,679
have to accept highly contentious and dubious metaphysical assumptions that

1180
00:54:45,159 --> 00:54:47,719
a lot of philosophers just think are dog shit right,

1181
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:51,440
So I need like more independent argument for that. And

1182
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:53,320
this is kind of the problem I see with philosophy

1183
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:56,320
is it's this like inception of arguments that it's really

1184
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:58,880
hard to get to, like a no pun intended a terminus.

1185
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:00,960
Speaker 2: Right, this is why we keep Mike around. That's right,

1186
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:03,800
so I shut up, we get terms like totalistic metaphysics.

1187
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:04,320
That's right.

1188
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 7: Well, Caleb, hopefully this is resonating with you, because I'm

1189
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:07,760
sure you're around people.

1190
00:55:07,519 --> 00:55:09,440
Speaker 4: That talk about this kind of stuff a lot, right.

1191
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:11,320
Speaker 9: I mean, I mean, yeah, definitely. I Mean one of

1192
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:13,039
the reasons why I ended up going a cap that

1193
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:14,719
is because they didn't say, like, oh, you just have

1194
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:16,599
to believe because it's just God made the world, you know,

1195
00:55:16,639 --> 00:55:18,559
you just have to read the Bible. It's like, no,

1196
00:55:18,679 --> 00:55:20,440
we're going to respect your intelligence.

1197
00:55:20,079 --> 00:55:20,920
Speaker 2: A little bit more.

1198
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:23,360
Speaker 9: And Joy, well, you're you're trying to explain it, you know,

1199
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:25,760
ask asking deeper question as to why are you asking

1200
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:26,400
these questions?

1201
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:28,039
Speaker 2: Or it's it goes.

1202
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:30,159
Speaker 9: Further than that, or you know, you that that you

1203
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:33,039
can be rational and also you know, believe and that

1204
00:55:33,159 --> 00:55:36,119
they compliment one another, like even if it's not necessarily true,

1205
00:55:36,159 --> 00:55:38,639
Like I just it's so Yeah, it definitely does resonate

1206
00:55:38,639 --> 00:55:40,440
with me. But it's honestly, if I'm going to be honest,

1207
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:42,360
a lot of this does kind of go over my head.

1208
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:44,599
Speaker 2: I'm still kind of well, I mean it goes over

1209
00:55:44,639 --> 00:55:47,000
my head too. I'm not a philosopher by any stretch

1210
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:47,840
of the image. Are you saying?

1211
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:48,880
Speaker 5: It's very contentious?

1212
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:54,039
Speaker 2: Kind of here's the second problem with it. Yeah, here's

1213
00:55:54,039 --> 00:55:57,239
a secondary critique. You can take this right, Like you're talking.

1214
00:55:57,119 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 8: About Thomas Aquine is obviously he was influenced by Aristotle, right,

1215
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:02,039
And the reason why he's doing that is the Greeks

1216
00:56:02,039 --> 00:56:05,360
were doing better philosophy than what they anyone else was

1217
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:07,039
doing back in the day. They had to make these

1218
00:56:07,039 --> 00:56:09,440
ideas make sense because the Bible doesn't make sense, and

1219
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:10,960
the God of the Bible doesn't make sense.

1220
00:56:11,039 --> 00:56:11,199
Speaker 3: Right.

1221
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:14,039
Speaker 8: That's why you see that secondary sort of shift in

1222
00:56:14,119 --> 00:56:16,880
Christianity between the New Testament versus like the Old Testament.

1223
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:19,239
That's why, like the God of News looks so different.

1224
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:20,920
Like there there is a shift in this idea of

1225
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:23,639
what God is. And of course Acquaintance was inspired by

1226
00:56:23,679 --> 00:56:27,039
that and all these other Catholic you know, philosophers and stuff. Right,

1227
00:56:27,039 --> 00:56:28,360
So like if you if you really look at the

1228
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:31,559
character of God and how he's described in the Bible,

1229
00:56:31,599 --> 00:56:34,199
that isn't really consistent with a lot of these sorts

1230
00:56:34,199 --> 00:56:37,039
of universalist claims that they make about God anyway, like

1231
00:56:37,079 --> 00:56:39,719
he seems to have a particular character and exists in

1232
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:44,440
space and time and various capacity. Is Yeah, so there's

1233
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:46,559
all kinds of other takes you can do with that

1234
00:56:46,559 --> 00:56:49,000
that don't have to deal with the you know, crazy

1235
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:50,920
metaphysical terms and stuff either.

1236
00:56:51,039 --> 00:56:53,360
Speaker 2: And if I could just really quickly Caleb as a

1237
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:58,800
I'm a scientist. I care about evidence and shy way failing.

1238
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:02,400
You know, you talk about Saint Thomas Aquinas here, and

1239
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:05,800
I for a few reasons, I'm not a fan. But

1240
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:08,519
like I think if I were you and I wanted

1241
00:57:08,519 --> 00:57:11,199
to keep it in this framework of Catholicism and everything

1242
00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:13,800
like that, I think you're focusing on the wrong Saint Thomas.

1243
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:16,239
I think instead of Saint Thomas, Aquinas, I think you

1244
00:57:16,239 --> 00:57:19,079
should be looking at Saint Thomas also named Didimus in

1245
00:57:19,159 --> 00:57:22,880
the Bible, who when Jesus was raised from the dead,

1246
00:57:23,079 --> 00:57:25,880
Jesus came back, he met with Depending on which gospel

1247
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:28,840
you're looking at, you know, either Mary Magdalen alone or

1248
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:30,599
like Mary and the other Mary, or like a bunch

1249
00:57:30,639 --> 00:57:34,280
of people whatever. Eventually he gets his way to meeting

1250
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:37,840
all of his disciples except for Thomas. He meets all

1251
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:41,239
these disciples except for Thomas, and all the disciples, all

1252
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:45,119
of Thomas's dear friends in faith and fellowship, all come

1253
00:57:45,159 --> 00:57:48,360
to him and say, our Lord is returned Jesus's back.

1254
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:52,840
And Thomas, who has every reason to believe this, every

1255
00:57:53,039 --> 00:57:56,920
desire to believe this, says, I do not believe. I

1256
00:57:57,000 --> 00:57:58,679
don't want to. I don't believe a word of this

1257
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:01,519
until he comes here in front of me. I want

1258
00:58:01,559 --> 00:58:04,159
to put my fingers in the holes in his hands.

1259
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:05,840
I want to put my fingers in the holes in

1260
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:07,519
his feet. I want to put my fingers in the

1261
00:58:07,559 --> 00:58:09,559
holes in his side, the hole in the side. I

1262
00:58:09,639 --> 00:58:12,880
want to know for sure that this is Jesus. I

1263
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:17,199
want to show me those tones, those holes and Jesus

1264
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:21,599
comes to Thomas and says, here I am, and he says,

1265
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:24,679
put your fingers in the holes in my hands and

1266
00:58:24,719 --> 00:58:29,000
feet inside. And only after Thomas does that does he

1267
00:58:29,039 --> 00:58:31,800
then accept who Jesus is and who he says he is.

1268
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:34,039
And then in the next line, I believe this is

1269
00:58:34,079 --> 00:58:37,840
in John. In the next line, it says that Jesus

1270
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:42,840
performed many more tests, he showed himself in many more ways.

1271
00:58:43,039 --> 00:58:46,159
He proved himself in all of these different ways that

1272
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:48,920
we didn't write down here. It literally says the next line,

1273
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:51,639
in all these different ways that we will not write

1274
00:58:51,679 --> 00:58:54,519
down here, Jesus proved himself. And then the next thing

1275
00:58:54,599 --> 00:58:57,760
you learn is blessed are those who have not seen

1276
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:01,639
and yet still believe. So two thousand years ago, Jesus

1277
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:05,400
Christ himself was totally fine with the idea that you

1278
00:59:05,519 --> 00:59:07,480
don't have to believe in me unless you can finger

1279
00:59:07,519 --> 00:59:11,239
my holes yourself. And now here we are in twenty

1280
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:14,920
five and you are forced to believe on the words

1281
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:18,159
of Thomas Aquinas some other asshole Thomas who's like, you

1282
00:59:18,239 --> 00:59:23,760
know what, though here are some some vague week philosophy exists, right,

1283
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:26,960
I think, what if things didn't exist that doesn't make

1284
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:30,559
any sense. Probably God right, and you're having to jump

1285
00:59:30,559 --> 00:59:33,199
through these mental loopholes to try to make something make

1286
00:59:33,239 --> 00:59:35,840
sense that doesn't fucking make sense. And I agree with you.

1287
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:38,920
Everything that Jamike talked about sounded really cool. Not my

1288
00:59:39,039 --> 00:59:42,000
department at all. And I'm here to just tell you

1289
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:45,480
I don't fucking know. I don't know where this universe

1290
00:59:45,519 --> 00:59:47,239
came from. I know I have some friends who are

1291
00:59:47,239 --> 00:59:50,639
physicists that tell me really cool shit. I'm not a physicist,

1292
00:59:50,719 --> 00:59:51,320
so I don't know.

1293
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 8: I don't believe in God because Thomas Aquinas told you, Yes,

1294
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:55,079
that's a laz and.

1295
00:59:55,119 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 2: Just don't That's what I'm trying to get it is, like, dude,

1296
00:59:57,559 --> 01:00:02,360
any explanation isn't a good explo Any explanation isn't the

1297
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:05,840
satisfactory explanation. The correct explanation is the one that actually

1298
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:08,760
satisfies your mind and actually meets the criteria of some

1299
01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:10,960
serious fucking reason. That's what you should be looking for.

1300
01:00:11,159 --> 01:00:13,519
Jesus was willing to provide that two thousand years ago.

1301
01:00:13,719 --> 01:00:16,519
If you don't get it today, you shouldn't believe. Don't

1302
01:00:16,519 --> 01:00:18,760
believe because you have to. Don't believe because I don't

1303
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:20,880
know isn't satisfying believe it when you have a good

1304
01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:23,440
reason to believe it, and if you don't, don't. That's

1305
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:24,920
my argument to you. That's what I would say.

1306
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:28,280
Speaker 4: What do you think in Caleb, I yeah, absolutely, I

1307
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:28,880
mean I can't.

1308
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:30,519
Speaker 2: I can't believe. I mean, ultimately, I'm just.

1309
01:00:30,519 --> 01:00:31,320
Speaker 9: Looking for truth.

1310
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:32,440
Speaker 2: That's all I care about.

1311
01:00:32,639 --> 01:00:34,960
Speaker 9: I'm trying to find it. And if I thought, you know,

1312
01:00:35,079 --> 01:00:37,480
maybe I can find it in religion, But now I'm thinking,

1313
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:39,280
I mean, some of it makes sense, that a lot

1314
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:42,159
of it doesn't really track, and you know, I just like, yeah,

1315
01:00:42,159 --> 01:00:46,000
I'm just yeah. I mean Saint Thomas, Yeah, Saint Thomas.

1316
01:00:46,079 --> 01:00:48,320
And I don't know if if he's a saint in

1317
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:51,280
the Bible or not, but yeah, from what if I

1318
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:52,880
were to ask somebody in the truth to say, oh,

1319
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:55,480
that's an example of somebody that you know, you shouldn't

1320
01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:58,440
be You should just believe because he God's already proven himself,

1321
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:01,039
Like Saint Paul writes that in Romans that oh, God

1322
01:01:01,119 --> 01:01:04,119
made himself obvious to everyone in the bull world.

1323
01:01:04,199 --> 01:01:07,039
Speaker 2: You wouldn't it be cool if you were among everyone

1324
01:01:07,079 --> 01:01:08,800
in the world? Clearly?

1325
01:01:08,920 --> 01:01:09,000
Speaker 6: Not?

1326
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:12,320
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, because look, there's like counter considerations of this, Like,

1327
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:15,159
you know, I think Schellenberg has these considerations about like

1328
01:01:15,239 --> 01:01:18,920
non resistant non believers. So people that don't believe and

1329
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:21,840
they're not resistant to this idea of God, like they're

1330
01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:22,320
very open.

1331
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:23,960
Speaker 4: There's like, look, I just want to know they're not

1332
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:24,639
God exists.

1333
01:01:24,639 --> 01:01:26,039
Speaker 7: And I think a lot of people in the audience

1334
01:01:26,079 --> 01:01:30,039
might classify themselves as non resistant non believers they don't believe.

1335
01:01:30,159 --> 01:01:31,960
You know, hey, I want to know if this is true,

1336
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:33,400
how it would impact my life. I just want to

1337
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:36,039
know the truth of this. And it does seem like,

1338
01:01:36,159 --> 01:01:38,599
you know, I would look into like the I don't

1339
01:01:38,599 --> 01:01:40,840
know that i'd be able to like reproduce the argument necessarily,

1340
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:44,440
but sure this general idea is it seems like highly

1341
01:01:44,679 --> 01:01:48,039
unexpected on this hypothesis of a being that desires to share,

1342
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:52,480
you know, its message, the goal, this thing that's like

1343
01:01:52,519 --> 01:01:54,599
the most important thing we could ever we could ever

1344
01:01:54,679 --> 01:01:58,559
ask ourselves. But people that aren't resistant like don't get

1345
01:01:58,599 --> 01:02:01,000
this gift that a bunch of people that you know,

1346
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:03,320
were just maybe born into it happened to get the

1347
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:03,920
right religion.

1348
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:05,519
Speaker 4: And God's like that's fine, you know, we'll.

1349
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:06,039
Speaker 2: Allow that to go.

1350
01:02:06,079 --> 01:02:08,480
Speaker 5: But this person is like genuinely, you know, begging.

1351
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:11,079
Speaker 7: It's like it's kind of it's kind of hard to

1352
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:16,159
to think that like this project of tomistic metaphysics would

1353
01:02:16,199 --> 01:02:20,199
be needed because to like that's like half more than

1354
01:02:20,199 --> 01:02:22,039
half the population. Just not they're gonna be like doing

1355
01:02:22,159 --> 01:02:24,159
checking out. This is a lifelong project, and there's so

1356
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:26,280
much shit in this right, Like I don't even know

1357
01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:26,719
where to start.

1358
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:29,320
Speaker 8: No, it's like the conception of God as this universal

1359
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:32,199
being who wants a relationship with people and is also

1360
01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:34,840
love and is also all these other things somehow like

1361
01:02:35,519 --> 01:02:38,440
doesn't care about Aborigines and had to have like people

1362
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:40,719
come and tell them about Jesus, Like why didn't you

1363
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:42,599
have that relationship with them in the first place. If

1364
01:02:42,639 --> 01:02:45,360
you look at the history of Christianity as a religion,

1365
01:02:46,039 --> 01:02:48,840
it makes more sense to have naturalistic explanations as to

1366
01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:51,599
why people have these experiences with God and why people

1367
01:02:51,679 --> 01:02:55,000
have these relationships than just oh, God just happened to

1368
01:02:55,039 --> 01:02:57,239
favor these particular people in the Middle East a couple

1369
01:02:57,280 --> 01:03:00,000
thousand years ago. And also that's the God of the universe.

1370
01:03:00,159 --> 01:03:02,239
Also is the God of the Old Testament. Also he's

1371
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:04,639
he's love, and he's justice, and he's everything.

1372
01:03:04,639 --> 01:03:06,920
Speaker 2: Else that lacks clear well.

1373
01:03:06,880 --> 01:03:10,039
Speaker 7: Under that view, God's love like under this view, which

1374
01:03:10,119 --> 01:03:13,519
makes this like incoherent where we talking about like theological

1375
01:03:14,519 --> 01:03:17,559
more theological critique than then yeah, yeah, but it's like it's.

1376
01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:19,119
Speaker 4: Like here's a very big word.

1377
01:03:19,119 --> 01:03:20,239
Speaker 2: You're ready. It's like a.

1378
01:03:20,119 --> 01:03:24,039
Speaker 7: Type of theological non cognitivism, this idea that it's just

1379
01:03:24,159 --> 01:03:27,400
made that up. It's this idea that it's not propositional.

1380
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:31,400
Speaker 2: I've heard that before, but I'm not. Yeah, no you haven't.

1381
01:03:31,599 --> 01:03:35,639
Speaker 7: Well, so cognitivism is like this idea that it's propositional.

1382
01:03:35,679 --> 01:03:37,880
Speaker 4: So like it is a statement, like it is raining.

1383
01:03:38,079 --> 01:03:41,239
Speaker 7: It can be true or false, right, So there's like

1384
01:03:41,719 --> 01:03:43,800
there's like some type of propositional value. But if I

1385
01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:47,760
if I was just like boom murder or like yay charity.

1386
01:03:47,480 --> 01:03:48,400
Speaker 4: Right or something like that.

1387
01:03:48,599 --> 01:03:51,039
Speaker 7: Uh, there's some people that would would say, like, look,

1388
01:03:51,079 --> 01:03:53,559
I don't think people are expressing propositions when they're saying

1389
01:03:53,599 --> 01:03:56,079
moral stuff. They're just they're just like expressing their preferences

1390
01:03:56,079 --> 01:03:58,480
like boo and yay, and that's not like a proposition.

1391
01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:01,920
So similarly with this, when what's kind of committed on

1392
01:04:01,960 --> 01:04:05,000
this view is that God's identical to like every property

1393
01:04:05,079 --> 01:04:07,000
he has because he's he's divinely simple and he doesn't

1394
01:04:07,039 --> 01:04:08,920
have parts or properties and things like that. If you're

1395
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:12,000
getting into this divine simplicity doctrine, and that's going to

1396
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:15,440
it's going to say something like God's necessary nature is

1397
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:18,880
identical to his omniscience, which his omniscience is identical to

1398
01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:22,039
his omnipotence, which is identical to his omnib benevolence. That

1399
01:04:22,079 --> 01:04:24,920
doesn't even sound like that's something a person could believe

1400
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:28,000
to be true, right, So I worry on this view

1401
01:04:28,039 --> 01:04:30,320
that it's like not even in the category of something

1402
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:32,800
that could be be believed by somebody because it just

1403
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:35,840
turns out to be gibberish, right, Yep, it's just like saying.

1404
01:04:35,639 --> 01:04:39,719
Speaker 8: That's that's why I prefer using the term atheist, because

1405
01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:40,840
it's essentially the same.

1406
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:44,679
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I would be like an atheist that I

1407
01:04:44,760 --> 01:04:45,159
like to use.

1408
01:04:45,119 --> 01:04:47,840
Speaker 8: The word atheists instead of atheists sometimes to describe myself

1409
01:04:47,840 --> 01:04:50,840
because if God is not a clear, concise idea in

1410
01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:52,639
and of itself, how can I even say I believe

1411
01:04:52,639 --> 01:04:54,760
in him or not. There's so many different conceptions of God.

1412
01:04:54,760 --> 01:04:57,440
We just talked about the tomistic conception of God. That's

1413
01:04:57,559 --> 01:05:00,000
very different from what early Christians believe, very different from

1414
01:05:00,119 --> 01:05:02,360
what Jewish Jewish people believed and still do.

1415
01:05:02,639 --> 01:05:05,360
Speaker 7: Right, so you know it directly contradicts thinking, Yeah, God

1416
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:06,360
is made of parts, right.

1417
01:05:06,480 --> 01:05:09,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, so anyway, we don't even know what God is.

1418
01:05:09,719 --> 01:05:10,719
That's what we're coming at.

1419
01:05:10,760 --> 01:05:13,480
Speaker 8: Like, you know, so somebody saying, oh, God is the universe,

1420
01:05:13,519 --> 01:05:15,599
God is existence, I'm just gonna be skeptical of that.

1421
01:05:15,639 --> 01:05:17,840
Speaker 2: I have no idea what that means until I see

1422
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:18,119
other one.

1423
01:05:18,119 --> 01:05:19,800
Speaker 4: Well, there's actually probably another object.

1424
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:22,599
Speaker 7: If someone says something like God is everything or something

1425
01:05:22,679 --> 01:05:24,360
like that, then you get this weird thing because I

1426
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:26,159
can do this like count. I can like there's a

1427
01:05:26,159 --> 01:05:28,599
water bottle, there's this, there's that, and then I count

1428
01:05:28,599 --> 01:05:31,199
for like everything. And then now when you say God

1429
01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:34,760
is everything, God is really just this abstract object, Like

1430
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:38,000
it's this abstraction from the things that I have. And

1431
01:05:38,039 --> 01:05:40,960
so I don't think abstract objects exist, so therefore God

1432
01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:43,440
doesn't exist. So you've like you would be like presenting

1433
01:05:43,480 --> 01:05:46,679
me on a platter an argument that I'd be like, Okay, well, look,

1434
01:05:46,719 --> 01:05:49,239
I have independent reasons to think that abstract objects don't exist.

1435
01:05:49,239 --> 01:05:51,440
And if it turns out that you're saying God is everything,

1436
01:05:51,719 --> 01:05:53,719
and that's just like, well, so it's not just the

1437
01:05:53,800 --> 01:05:56,679
laptop and this the God part matters. Okay, Well, the

1438
01:05:56,719 --> 01:05:57,960
only thing I feel like I can do with that

1439
01:05:58,039 --> 01:06:00,719
is it's some abstraction. I don't think those things exist

1440
01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:03,280
independent of my mind, and so then God.

1441
01:06:03,079 --> 01:06:04,320
Speaker 4: Just wouldn't exist on my view.

1442
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:05,400
Speaker 2: Yes, that's what's being said.

1443
01:06:05,559 --> 01:06:07,239
Speaker 9: Oh, hold on, hold on, hold on, let me let

1444
01:06:07,239 --> 01:06:09,159
me just let me just clarify at least what I've

1445
01:06:09,159 --> 01:06:09,840
been led to believe.

1446
01:06:09,920 --> 01:06:10,079
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1447
01:06:10,119 --> 01:06:12,079
Speaker 9: Sorry, I think that's called pantheism, which is the belief

1448
01:06:12,159 --> 01:06:15,519
that the universe is God like, as far as I know,

1449
01:06:15,599 --> 01:06:16,559
that's definitely.

1450
01:06:16,159 --> 01:06:17,320
Speaker 2: Not what the Catholic church.

1451
01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:18,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely not certain.

1452
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:19,639
Speaker 2: What I've learned is.

1453
01:06:19,639 --> 01:06:23,239
Speaker 9: That creation and that God can't you know, create himself,

1454
01:06:23,239 --> 01:06:25,440
because then he wouldn't be God, you know, because who

1455
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:26,320
would have created.

1456
01:06:26,119 --> 01:06:29,800
Speaker 2: God right self? Causation would be even more nebulous than that.

1457
01:06:30,199 --> 01:06:32,679
Speaker 7: Yeah, Like it's like being a box within a it's

1458
01:06:32,679 --> 01:06:36,320
like has self contained box or like just creating itself

1459
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:38,280
like it's supposed to exists.

1460
01:06:38,119 --> 01:06:40,119
Speaker 2: The whole thing. Also, you know, if this God is

1461
01:06:40,199 --> 01:06:45,199
real and it's chosen representation, is the currentler church. Maybe

1462
01:06:45,559 --> 01:06:47,920
maybe not a God worth worshiping in the first place,

1463
01:06:47,960 --> 01:06:50,920
you know, But Caleb, I think we've we've eaten this,

1464
01:06:51,119 --> 01:06:53,559
you know, in all different angles. I hope you call

1465
01:06:53,679 --> 01:06:56,280
us back and tell us how your journey is going,

1466
01:06:56,360 --> 01:06:58,000
if you come up with any other answers to what

1467
01:06:58,039 --> 01:06:59,960
we've talked about, if you come up with any reason

1468
01:07:00,159 --> 01:07:03,079
to continue believing, we want to hear them. And I

1469
01:07:03,119 --> 01:07:04,519
can't wait for the day that you call us back

1470
01:07:04,559 --> 01:07:07,159
and like, yo, guess what, I'm an atheist now what

1471
01:07:07,239 --> 01:07:10,159
I'm doing this, I'm opening up. That's a shop somewhere

1472
01:07:10,400 --> 01:07:13,079
in New England and it's what surfing last weekend.

1473
01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:15,400
Speaker 7: I want to come to like these church, these Catholic

1474
01:07:15,440 --> 01:07:18,039
churches that hang out with the quinas void.

1475
01:07:18,159 --> 01:07:18,800
Speaker 2: Do you really?

1476
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:20,400
Speaker 7: I do, because I want to do that sounds like

1477
01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:22,320
a good time. Yes, I want to stand and hear

1478
01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:23,280
with what they have to say.

1479
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:25,079
Speaker 8: And like here, you and I have different ideas, and

1480
01:07:25,719 --> 01:07:27,400
I be like, well, strange man.

1481
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:29,039
Speaker 4: I don't know if you know, but there's a lot

1482
01:07:29,079 --> 01:07:30,360
of objections what you said.

1483
01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:32,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, anyway, Caleb, I really appreciate your call. I

1484
01:07:32,719 --> 01:07:34,000
hope you have an awesome rest of your day. We're

1485
01:07:34,000 --> 01:07:35,360
gonna we're gonna move on to our last thing in

1486
01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:38,199
the show. Thank you for calling us awesome. Yeah, you

1487
01:07:38,199 --> 01:07:40,360
guys have a good one.

1488
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:43,239
Speaker 7: I will say, like that Catholic Tomistic project, it is

1489
01:07:43,239 --> 01:07:45,159
like a lifelong there's a lot of stuff to read.

1490
01:07:45,519 --> 01:07:48,760
But because that's the case, you put so much out

1491
01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:51,000
on the table and it makes it really easy to

1492
01:07:51,079 --> 01:07:54,360
find these like contradictions like Ryan Mullens's a he's a

1493
01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:57,840
non classical theist, and then Joe Schmid he's an agnostic

1494
01:07:57,920 --> 01:08:01,400
or atheist. He they wrote a paper together on like

1495
01:08:01,559 --> 01:08:03,880
you know, showing this kind of like contradiction entailed by

1496
01:08:04,239 --> 01:08:05,880
simplicity and uh yeah, dude.

1497
01:08:05,719 --> 01:08:08,719
Speaker 2: I was just reading that last night. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting.

1498
01:08:09,079 --> 01:08:11,079
Speaker 7: It's interesting because you have these like in house disputes

1499
01:08:11,119 --> 01:08:13,639
between theists on this stuff, and it's like, you know,

1500
01:08:13,639 --> 01:08:15,039
it's like, well, I'm sitting here on the side of

1501
01:08:15,159 --> 01:08:15,679
figure it out.

1502
01:08:15,920 --> 01:08:17,079
Speaker 5: I'll be waiting when you guys get.

1503
01:08:17,039 --> 01:08:19,760
Speaker 2: This right exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I guess I

1504
01:08:19,800 --> 01:08:22,520
love black because like science is all about disagreement and

1505
01:08:22,640 --> 01:08:24,920
argument as well. Like there's an old joke, you know,

1506
01:08:25,039 --> 01:08:26,960
a group of crows is called a murder a group

1507
01:08:27,000 --> 01:08:29,239
of ferrets is called a business. A group of scientists

1508
01:08:29,279 --> 01:08:31,720
is called a disagreement. But like we can agree on

1509
01:08:31,800 --> 01:08:34,760
the thing that exists and then disagree on how it

1510
01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:37,279
works and all these things, and with a lot of

1511
01:08:37,279 --> 01:08:40,159
these theistic arguments, they don't even agree on what God exists,

1512
01:08:40,239 --> 01:08:43,119
how it exists, where it exists, Just like I like

1513
01:08:43,199 --> 01:08:46,039
the idea of a guy that made the things happen

1514
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:49,239
and going from there, what can we now decide? And

1515
01:08:49,319 --> 01:08:51,359
it just it doesn't resonateparently, don't.

1516
01:08:51,239 --> 01:08:53,239
Speaker 4: Agree on what it means for something to exist. Now

1517
01:08:54,880 --> 01:08:55,880
now it's the thing itself.

1518
01:08:56,680 --> 01:08:59,760
Speaker 2: We've got one more question that we're going to take today.

1519
01:08:59,840 --> 01:09:01,600
Rather taking a call, we're actually going to take a

1520
01:09:01,640 --> 01:09:04,840
question from our lovely audience here in the studio. Greg,

1521
01:09:04,960 --> 01:09:06,680
who are we talking to today? Me?

1522
01:09:07,079 --> 01:09:10,840
Speaker 5: Oh, Greg, everybody, Vio.

1523
01:09:11,560 --> 01:09:13,520
Speaker 10: First of all, I want to thank everybody in the

1524
01:09:13,600 --> 01:09:18,399
audience for coming out. I want to thank all of

1525
01:09:18,399 --> 01:09:21,319
our wonderful hosts we'd had on the show today and

1526
01:09:21,399 --> 01:09:22,520
everybody out there watching.

1527
01:09:23,079 --> 01:09:25,159
Speaker 2: We love you all more than you know.

1528
01:09:25,319 --> 01:09:27,520
Speaker 10: But anyway, I kind of wanted to wrap this up

1529
01:09:27,520 --> 01:09:30,159
with maybe some things that have been asked of you before,

1530
01:09:30,199 --> 01:09:32,119
but maybe not asked on us. So, so I have

1531
01:09:32,119 --> 01:09:33,600
a question for each of you, and then I have

1532
01:09:33,640 --> 01:09:37,479
a common question at the end. So, Forrest, what is

1533
01:09:37,520 --> 01:09:40,079
your favorite biological oddity?

1534
01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:42,479
Speaker 2: Okay, Mike, what is.

1535
01:09:42,479 --> 01:09:46,319
Speaker 10: Your favorite philosophical argument to utterly destroy?

1536
01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:47,960
Speaker 2: Oh god? What am i? Okay?

1537
01:09:48,239 --> 01:09:53,159
Speaker 10: And Dan, what is your favorite weird, out there supernatural

1538
01:09:53,319 --> 01:09:56,560
claim that you love talking about most on the show.

1539
01:09:57,039 --> 01:10:00,119
And then my question for all of you and you

1540
01:10:00,159 --> 01:10:03,760
may or may not agree, but who is your favorite

1541
01:10:04,039 --> 01:10:06,840
other ACA host to work with?

1542
01:10:07,079 --> 01:10:10,560
Speaker 2: And why? Wow?

1543
01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:13,640
Speaker 7: Oh man, that's that One's gonna hurt some feelings.

1544
01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:16,880
Speaker 2: I feel like, yeah, right, yeah, he's creating a hierarchy.

1545
01:10:16,920 --> 01:10:20,000
Here is the video involved. I don't like that. It's awful.

1546
01:10:20,239 --> 01:10:21,600
Speaker 4: Well can I?

1547
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:24,039
Speaker 7: I worked with Seth Andrews pretty recently in a sense

1548
01:10:24,079 --> 01:10:26,079
that kind of am I allowed to just I can

1549
01:10:26,159 --> 01:10:26,840
pull you all?

1550
01:10:27,199 --> 01:10:30,359
Speaker 2: Would be so fat I'm a set Elliott. It would

1551
01:10:30,399 --> 01:10:32,760
be so funny. I know.

1552
01:10:34,560 --> 01:10:36,760
Speaker 7: It's I don't I'll let you answer the let's go

1553
01:10:36,840 --> 01:10:37,680
in order that's going on?

1554
01:10:37,760 --> 01:10:42,000
Speaker 2: Okay, biology, Asking me my favorite biological odity is like

1555
01:10:42,079 --> 01:10:44,920
asking a chef their favorite food. It's really difficult for

1556
01:10:44,960 --> 01:10:46,479
me to pin one down. But off the top of

1557
01:10:46,479 --> 01:10:50,199
my head at this moment. Uh. Just mammary glands are

1558
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:54,600
modified sweat glands, what we would call pseudoriferous glands. And

1559
01:10:54,640 --> 01:10:57,439
you already have water and a little bit of salt

1560
01:10:57,439 --> 01:11:00,479
in there. You just keep adding nutrients and and then

1561
01:11:00,520 --> 01:11:04,960
you have milk. And that's why early, like the lowest

1562
01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:09,199
taxonomy of the lowest, the most basal kind of mammals,

1563
01:11:09,319 --> 01:11:13,960
monotreams still have milk patches rather than nipples. Nipples are

1564
01:11:14,239 --> 01:11:18,520
just straws. They're just you take that same duct and

1565
01:11:18,720 --> 01:11:21,560
just elongate it and focus it in one way. It

1566
01:11:21,640 --> 01:11:25,359
is nutrient rich sweat coming out of a skin straw,

1567
01:11:25,680 --> 01:11:29,600
and that is what defines our entire Goddamn clay bro,

1568
01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:33,319
We're about to eat dinner, like right after are you

1569
01:11:33,399 --> 01:11:35,720
getting it out of a skin straw? Like what are

1570
01:11:35,720 --> 01:11:37,720
you doing? Because like there were some babies in here,

1571
01:11:37,760 --> 01:11:45,159
early person, why they suck? They're terrible things, terrible things crazy?

1572
01:11:45,239 --> 01:11:47,159
All right, Well that's an answer.

1573
01:11:47,039 --> 01:11:51,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, ah man, favorite to destroy. I mean I don't.

1574
01:11:52,119 --> 01:11:56,239
Speaker 7: I probably I probably fine tuning, especially because I know

1575
01:11:56,239 --> 01:11:57,439
a lot of people they're like that. That one gives

1576
01:11:57,479 --> 01:11:59,840
me the most trouble was the fine tuning and I

1577
01:12:00,039 --> 01:12:02,119
think that's an empirical claim. So in order to get

1578
01:12:02,119 --> 01:12:03,399
off the ground, what you have to kind of do

1579
01:12:03,439 --> 01:12:06,560
is say, like, assume our best science says this, Now

1580
01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:08,720
you proceed, Right, you have to kind of make these

1581
01:12:08,720 --> 01:12:11,119
assumptions because it's not clear what's put in by hand,

1582
01:12:11,159 --> 01:12:14,039
and it's kind of people way more kind of physics

1583
01:12:14,399 --> 01:12:15,600
or would shit on me.

1584
01:12:15,640 --> 01:12:17,880
Speaker 4: So I'm gonna not do this, right, I'm not gonna

1585
01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:18,239
go in that.

1586
01:12:18,359 --> 01:12:20,640
Speaker 7: But there's like, there's obviously a debate, right, there's an

1587
01:12:20,640 --> 01:12:24,119
empirical investigation in query to have so but if we

1588
01:12:24,159 --> 01:12:26,319
do our best to say, let's assume our best science

1589
01:12:26,359 --> 01:12:28,760
says that there's constants, they could vary in all these

1590
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:32,159
different ways, and a very small range of ways that

1591
01:12:32,199 --> 01:12:35,039
the universe could be maybe just one way would permit life.

1592
01:12:35,119 --> 01:12:36,920
And so the idea is that that's going to be

1593
01:12:36,920 --> 01:12:41,119
better explained on theism than like naturalism or some type

1594
01:12:41,119 --> 01:12:44,399
of atheistic view, because there's a desire that God wants

1595
01:12:44,439 --> 01:12:46,960
those for a purpose, Right, he wants the constants this

1596
01:12:47,000 --> 01:12:49,319
way because he wants life. But one really easy way

1597
01:12:49,359 --> 01:12:52,079
to think about this is think about the space we've

1598
01:12:52,159 --> 01:12:54,560
drawn out where we have all of these ways the

1599
01:12:54,600 --> 01:12:57,760
constants could be with the universe is collapsing on themselves

1600
01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:01,079
this way, or we get the life we get, or

1601
01:13:01,079 --> 01:13:03,159
they're just maybe it's just a bunch of forces just

1602
01:13:03,239 --> 01:13:05,840
talking biological facts all the time, right, all these different

1603
01:13:05,880 --> 01:13:07,560
ways they could be. Now, think of all the way

1604
01:13:07,640 --> 01:13:10,520
God's desires could be. For each one of the ways

1605
01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:14,119
that you could change the constants, you could correspond a

1606
01:13:14,159 --> 01:13:16,680
potential desire that God has. And so when you make

1607
01:13:16,760 --> 01:13:19,560
this move where you want to say, look, you need

1608
01:13:19,560 --> 01:13:22,560
this desire in order to explain this finely to a constant,

1609
01:13:22,680 --> 01:13:25,279
you can't stop there. You have to go parody of reasoning.

1610
01:13:25,359 --> 01:13:28,760
You need to keep going. That is the same improbability

1611
01:13:29,199 --> 01:13:32,600
to land on that desire for that constant rather than

1612
01:13:32,640 --> 01:13:35,479
the infinite other desires God could have for the infinite

1613
01:13:35,520 --> 01:13:38,279
amount of constants. So by parody of reasoning, we're going

1614
01:13:38,359 --> 01:13:41,000
to get an infinite regression of fine tuners, because now

1615
01:13:41,000 --> 01:13:43,920
we need a fine tuner to design the desires of

1616
01:13:43,960 --> 01:13:47,159
God in order to finally pick out those constants. And

1617
01:13:47,199 --> 01:13:49,359
that's going to go over and over and over again.

1618
01:13:49,439 --> 01:13:51,560
And it's I love seeing people's like eyes kind of

1619
01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:53,600
glaze over this when they're like they finally get it

1620
01:13:53,640 --> 01:13:54,399
and they're like, I'm.

1621
01:13:54,239 --> 01:13:57,920
Speaker 5: Like, do you deny that God? He's omnipotent being. He

1622
01:13:57,920 --> 01:13:59,479
could create any one of these worlds?

1623
01:13:59,479 --> 01:13:59,920
Speaker 4: Could he not?

1624
01:14:00,079 --> 01:14:00,640
Speaker 2: Yes? He could?

1625
01:14:00,760 --> 01:14:02,680
Speaker 7: Why does he have this desire over any of the

1626
01:14:02,720 --> 01:14:05,479
other desires? And why does that not cause the same

1627
01:14:05,640 --> 01:14:08,520
problem on a higher level that you now need a

1628
01:14:08,640 --> 01:14:11,520
fine tuned designer for those desire?

1629
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:15,920
Speaker 2: Add infinitely thanks for that. Butterflies can taste with their feet, y'all.

1630
01:14:16,600 --> 01:14:19,279
That's cool. I like another one. You already had your audity.

1631
01:14:19,760 --> 01:14:21,960
I'm just saying I just want to throw another one in. Okay,

1632
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:22,880
So I was thinking about this.

1633
01:14:22,960 --> 01:14:25,600
Speaker 8: I think I could break it down into favorite cryptid

1634
01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:27,119
and favorite conspiracy theory.

1635
01:14:27,159 --> 01:14:30,039
Speaker 2: So you do both. Hell yay. Best conspiracy theory?

1636
01:14:30,079 --> 01:14:31,880
Speaker 8: My favorite one talking about on truthline and we don't

1637
01:14:31,880 --> 01:14:33,640
talk about very often, but I really liked the idea

1638
01:14:33,680 --> 01:14:36,680
that the US invasion of Iranq was not because of terrorism,

1639
01:14:36,760 --> 01:14:39,319
it's not because of oil, but because the US government

1640
01:14:39,399 --> 01:14:43,079
found Nephelin bones and that they have to covered that

1641
01:14:43,119 --> 01:14:46,760
ship up and take it up. And this is supported

1642
01:14:46,800 --> 01:14:50,199
by like early two thousands photoshop jobs of people would

1643
01:14:50,239 --> 01:14:52,319
just next to giant I've seen.

1644
01:14:52,680 --> 01:14:55,079
Speaker 2: It's awesome. It's so cool. I love it. That's the

1645
01:14:55,119 --> 01:14:56,880
best anything that the.

1646
01:14:57,000 --> 01:14:58,720
Speaker 4: Chariots, the wheels.

1647
01:14:58,960 --> 01:15:01,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, I love the idea that wars are started because

1648
01:15:01,920 --> 01:15:04,039
the angel bones and that's just cool.

1649
01:15:04,119 --> 01:15:04,640
Speaker 2: I just like that.

1650
01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:08,159
Speaker 8: Also, So talking about cryptis Micola Mabimbe is first of all,

1651
01:15:08,199 --> 01:15:10,279
a fun thing to say. It is is a cryptid

1652
01:15:10,279 --> 01:15:12,079
that it's supposed to lives in the Congo and it's

1653
01:15:12,079 --> 01:15:15,920
basically just the giant sauropod, right, And the idea is like,

1654
01:15:16,199 --> 01:15:18,920
you know, this dinosaur is just living among us, right,

1655
01:15:19,000 --> 01:15:20,680
and it's just hanging out in the jungle. We just

1656
01:15:20,720 --> 01:15:23,119
haven't found it yet. And there have been younger creationists

1657
01:15:23,119 --> 01:15:25,880
that have attempted to go out to the Congo just

1658
01:15:25,920 --> 01:15:28,560
to find this dinosaur because if they can prove that

1659
01:15:28,600 --> 01:15:30,880
dinosaurs lived at the same time as people, then it

1660
01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:33,359
kind of throws evolution and all that stuff, you know,

1661
01:15:33,680 --> 01:15:35,720
out of whack, right, And of course they've never found it.

1662
01:15:35,760 --> 01:15:37,720
But I just love the idea of a grown adult

1663
01:15:38,159 --> 01:15:41,039
planning trim to Africa to go to the jungle to

1664
01:15:41,079 --> 01:15:42,279
find some dinosaurs.

1665
01:15:42,479 --> 01:15:44,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just awesome, what a cool thing. It's funny

1666
01:15:44,920 --> 01:15:47,319
because I actually I know the one you're talking about,

1667
01:15:47,359 --> 01:15:50,760
because they did a video. One of my episode episodes

1668
01:15:50,800 --> 01:15:53,720
React here a little while ago included this guy who

1669
01:15:53,800 --> 01:15:57,520
runs a creation museum here in Texas, and he was like,

1670
01:15:57,680 --> 01:16:02,039
here's this great scientist, this great zoneologist, who is going

1671
01:16:02,039 --> 01:16:05,479
out and exploring the very jungles around us to find evidence.

1672
01:16:05,880 --> 01:16:09,319
And it was this dude who calls himself a zoologist

1673
01:16:09,800 --> 01:16:13,479
who goes out and and explores the jungle looking for cryptids,

1674
01:16:13,600 --> 01:16:15,199
and he was looking for that one. He was going

1675
01:16:15,239 --> 01:16:18,720
to the congo to find this soropod, and that that's

1676
01:16:18,880 --> 01:16:21,880
the guy. That's the scientist that they were able to reference. Say,

1677
01:16:22,079 --> 01:16:25,239
this random guy who says he's a scientist believes in this,

1678
01:16:25,520 --> 01:16:28,800
therefore it's true. And what blows my mind is if

1679
01:16:28,800 --> 01:16:32,479
the argument really just has to be dinosaurs live with people,

1680
01:16:32,760 --> 01:16:35,760
you can do that with evolution, because bitch them's birds.

1681
01:16:36,399 --> 01:16:39,239
Birds are dinosaurs. No man, I want to be able

1682
01:16:39,239 --> 01:16:41,920
to ride on that ship like the Flintstones. Have you

1683
01:16:42,039 --> 01:16:43,960
seen Ostrich writing it's a thing.

1684
01:16:44,279 --> 01:16:46,520
Speaker 8: Okay, but that's not a soro pod man. I want

1685
01:16:46,520 --> 01:16:49,479
to be like Godzillah. Yeah, okay whatever.

1686
01:16:50,119 --> 01:16:53,199
Speaker 4: Speaking of So sr did exactly what he's doing here.

1687
01:16:55,159 --> 01:16:58,560
Speaker 5: Guys, you didn't you didn't answer the question.

1688
01:16:58,279 --> 01:17:01,720
Speaker 4: Who you're favorite there yet you haven't gotten there?

1689
01:17:01,720 --> 01:17:05,520
Speaker 2: What do you mean? Okay, okay, I'll just wait. I'll

1690
01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:06,680
just wait patiently and cute.

1691
01:17:06,720 --> 01:17:09,760
Speaker 7: Well, actually it's interesting because when when you came in

1692
01:17:09,760 --> 01:17:14,239
the door at the hotel, I was watching ancient Aliens right, yes, yes,

1693
01:17:14,239 --> 01:17:17,880
because I could. I flipped it and I couldn't fucking

1694
01:17:17,920 --> 01:17:19,279
look away, like it was.

1695
01:17:19,239 --> 01:17:19,960
Speaker 2: Just a train wreck.

1696
01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:21,479
Speaker 7: And I'm watching their standing next to this wall and

1697
01:17:21,479 --> 01:17:23,560
they're like, they're like, we don't know why the arc

1698
01:17:23,640 --> 01:17:25,119
on it's so tall. You know, it has to be

1699
01:17:25,119 --> 01:17:28,640
extraterrestrials or giants or something like that. And I'm sending

1700
01:17:28,680 --> 01:17:31,640
messages to SR like, dude, now they're standing next to

1701
01:17:31,680 --> 01:17:33,399
a stone wall and it's got the hair guy and

1702
01:17:33,520 --> 01:17:34,439
like it has to be aliens.

1703
01:17:34,479 --> 01:17:34,960
Speaker 2: And I'm laughing.

1704
01:17:35,000 --> 01:17:37,960
Speaker 7: Send these messages and Elliott comes in the room or whatever,

1705
01:17:38,039 --> 01:17:39,840
and he gets to this part where they're talking about

1706
01:17:40,079 --> 01:17:43,159
like Chinese festivals and prays and how they lift the

1707
01:17:43,239 --> 01:17:46,359
dragon up into the you know, the like inflatable kind

1708
01:17:46,399 --> 01:17:47,119
of dragons and.

1709
01:17:47,119 --> 01:17:48,760
Speaker 4: They release them, and they're.

1710
01:17:48,520 --> 01:17:50,800
Speaker 7: Like, could it be the case that people back in

1711
01:17:50,840 --> 01:17:56,239
the day, weren't really seeing dragons, but extraterrestrial crafts shaped

1712
01:17:56,359 --> 01:17:57,039
like dragons.

1713
01:17:57,119 --> 01:17:57,800
Speaker 2: Yes, and I.

1714
01:17:57,760 --> 01:18:00,159
Speaker 7: Look at it and he just goes because that's naturally.

1715
01:17:59,840 --> 01:18:03,000
Speaker 2: What would make that ship because obviously that's got to

1716
01:18:03,000 --> 01:18:08,000
be our places think about it is that drag.

1717
01:18:08,119 --> 01:18:10,319
Speaker 7: The reason why we have dragons and war is because

1718
01:18:10,359 --> 01:18:12,640
really to be a dragon shaped ships that you.

1719
01:18:12,600 --> 01:18:14,439
Speaker 2: Know that's created, I don't know.

1720
01:18:14,760 --> 01:18:15,760
Speaker 4: That's that's the reason why.

1721
01:18:15,880 --> 01:18:17,680
Speaker 2: All right, since you're here, I'll go first on this

1722
01:18:17,760 --> 01:18:19,199
quest you to.

1723
01:18:19,159 --> 01:18:19,880
Speaker 7: Be on your one.

1724
01:18:19,920 --> 01:18:23,239
Speaker 8: I'm not going to say absolute favorite because Greg's psychopath

1725
01:18:23,319 --> 01:18:25,119
and we're not doing that. I will say one of

1726
01:18:25,119 --> 01:18:27,199
my favorites is secularity right here, this.

1727
01:18:27,239 --> 01:18:33,720
Speaker 2: Is on this that's right, Yes, myself is currently. I

1728
01:18:34,560 --> 01:18:36,359
love l and I love the way earlier.

1729
01:18:36,119 --> 01:18:37,760
Speaker 8: You were talking to that guy and you're like, I

1730
01:18:37,800 --> 01:18:41,880
don't think you're stupid, because you're like a police interrogator

1731
01:18:41,920 --> 01:18:43,640
they just found the murderer. And it's like, I don't

1732
01:18:43,680 --> 01:18:45,319
think you're stupid.

1733
01:18:45,359 --> 01:18:47,760
Speaker 2: I don't think and it's like I just think the

1734
01:18:47,800 --> 01:18:48,960
script that I heard, I just.

1735
01:18:48,920 --> 01:18:51,520
Speaker 8: Think you're so nice that I could almost believe that

1736
01:18:51,680 --> 01:18:53,960
to be true, that you don't think that the person

1737
01:18:54,000 --> 01:18:56,000
you're talking to is stupid or whatever, but no, you

1738
01:18:56,119 --> 01:18:56,760
are a nice guy.

1739
01:18:57,960 --> 01:18:58,920
Speaker 2: You haven't answered es.

1740
01:18:59,159 --> 01:19:01,319
Speaker 7: Yeah, well, so I have it the worst because I

1741
01:19:01,359 --> 01:19:03,479
have to go back to the room with this person.

1742
01:19:03,600 --> 01:19:06,439
And so, so who's your favorite host?

1743
01:19:06,479 --> 01:19:09,399
Speaker 2: This is very chaotic right now, very cares in this room.

1744
01:19:10,319 --> 01:19:12,239
Speaker 7: I have a sip of water like I'm on the standard,

1745
01:19:14,640 --> 01:19:15,800
take a pressure or anything.

1746
01:19:15,960 --> 01:19:17,800
Speaker 4: Just my favorite host is Scott?

1747
01:19:18,880 --> 01:19:20,279
Speaker 2: Nice? Good answer, good answer.

1748
01:19:23,039 --> 01:19:26,119
Speaker 7: But you know what I feel like. I feel like

1749
01:19:26,159 --> 01:19:28,159
me and Graham have have actually bonded the most.

1750
01:19:28,439 --> 01:19:30,880
Speaker 8: Actually I'm really Graham's a good guy.

1751
01:19:31,199 --> 01:19:31,359
Speaker 6: Greg.

1752
01:19:31,399 --> 01:19:33,520
Speaker 2: Why did you make us do this objectively? Why did

1753
01:19:33,520 --> 01:19:35,000
you do this? Squid games?

1754
01:19:35,319 --> 01:19:37,439
Speaker 7: No, let me let me not, let me not talkward.

1755
01:19:37,600 --> 01:19:39,960
I I do fucking love this, Scott.

1756
01:19:40,000 --> 01:19:46,640
Speaker 2: I've spent ye get up in here your non sponsored beverage.

1757
01:19:46,760 --> 01:19:47,399
This just happened.

1758
01:19:47,399 --> 01:19:48,960
Speaker 4: But you have to understand something.

1759
01:19:49,239 --> 01:19:52,479
Speaker 7: I interviewed Dan when I was a fan of the show,

1760
01:19:52,840 --> 01:19:54,399
so it's I was telling him. I was like, it's

1761
01:19:54,439 --> 01:19:56,439
it's cool for you really big fan of.

1762
01:19:57,960 --> 01:20:00,640
Speaker 2: My buddy. Yeah cool, Well this has just turned to

1763
01:20:00,680 --> 01:20:04,880
a big hot Before before I wrap up with my answer,

1764
01:20:04,920 --> 01:20:06,760
I want to give a quick shout out to our

1765
01:20:06,760 --> 01:20:10,640
incredible audience out there. You are still who sat through

1766
01:20:10,800 --> 01:20:15,199
all of the foolishness. Oh my goodness. I also want

1767
01:20:15,239 --> 01:20:18,119
to take a second. I also want to take a

1768
01:20:18,119 --> 01:20:20,039
say we do have someone from the Netherlands. That's great.

1769
01:20:20,520 --> 01:20:23,039
It's great people from all over the place and we

1770
01:20:23,119 --> 01:20:25,079
also I just want to thank all of our hosts

1771
01:20:25,119 --> 01:20:27,680
here who have been with us. Whichever one is my

1772
01:20:27,680 --> 01:20:30,520
favorite is irrelevant, because they're all incredible. I want to

1773
01:20:30,560 --> 01:20:33,119
thank our call screener and the rest of our crew.

1774
01:20:33,399 --> 01:20:35,279
I want to thank all of our callers, even the

1775
01:20:35,279 --> 01:20:38,000
ones that suck. I want to thank all of our chatters,

1776
01:20:38,039 --> 01:20:40,560
even the ones that suck. I want to thank our

1777
01:20:40,600 --> 01:20:44,960
mods on everybody else. And with that, my favorite host

1778
01:20:45,119 --> 01:20:49,680
is see you next time. Everybody on this experience Sundays

1779
01:20:49,720 --> 01:20:51,560
at four thirty under standard time, which is the best

1780
01:20:51,600 --> 01:20:59,920
standard time. We'll see you then. Bye. That was a

1781
01:21:00,079 --> 01:21:15,199
great idea. I around you got it, y'all. Wal Ellen.

1782
01:21:39,279 --> 01:21:42,239
Speaker 5: Watch talk Ee Than live Sundays at one pm Central.

1783
01:21:42,319 --> 01:21:45,319
Speaker 2: Visit tiny dot c c, slash y t t H

1784
01:21:45,479 --> 01:21:45,800
and call

1785
01:21:45,880 --> 01:21:48,319
Speaker 5: Into the show at five one two nine nine one

1786
01:21:48,560 --> 01:21:51,119
nine two four two, or connect to the show online

1787
01:21:51,159 --> 01:22:00,239
at tiny dot c c slash call th H