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Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty, Kentucky passed a law requiring the posting

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of copies of the Ten Commandments purchased with private contributions,

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on the wall of each public classroom in the state.

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In a historic decision called Stone v. Graham, the Supreme

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Court applied its Lemon tests and held this law to

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be unconstitutional. Well as my favorite newsdesk, the Onion said

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in a famous headline history size and repeats itself. Here

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we are forty five years later, and we're seeing another

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rise of Christian nationalism another state. This time, Louisiana has

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passed a law requiring the posting of copies of the

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Ten Commandments, purchased with private contributions, on the wall of

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each public classroom in the state. Sound familiar, just like

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Kentucky did in Stone, And just like back then, the

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lower courts, citing Stone, have held that the Louisiana law

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is plainly unconstitutional. Just this week, Louisiana had argued that

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because the Supreme Court had recently done away with its

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Lemon test which decided Stone, they are now allowed to

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shove their particular version of their favorite religion down the

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throats of all school children in Louisiana. The Fifth Circuit

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unanimously and slightly surprisingly disagreed and held that Stone is

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still good law. But don't celebrate just yet. Louisiana will

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likely appear to this appeal to the Supreme Court, and

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given the Court's recent holdings, we may see a very

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different outcome seeing the very real possibility that the Supreme

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Court will continue to overturn its First Amendment decisions. Other

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states are schooling like sharks, expecting blood in the water. Texas,

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South Dakota, Arkansas all have bills at various stages of

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the legislative process that would require the Ten Commandments to

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be displayed in every classroom. Arkansas signed their bill into

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law just this April. This is what he meant when

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Christopher Hitchin said that religion poisons everything. These people are

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so lost in their era national beliefs that they want

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to tear down our constitution. They will never give up.

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They will keep trying to do away with the First Amendment.

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This is why we are here. We need to keep

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having conversations that focus on facts and logic over irrational

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Skydaddy wishes, so we can convince people that the First

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Amendment is important. If you think we have it wrong

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and that our government should promote religion. Give us a

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call because the show starts now. Welcome everybody. Today is

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June twenty ninth, twenty twenty five. I am your host,

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the Cross Examiner, and joining me today is Jim Barrows.

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How's it going, Jim, Oh, not too bad.

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Speaker 2: How you doing?

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Speaker 1: Oh well? Like Mike cold Hope and said, I'm a

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little optimistic. The Fifth Circuit overturned Luisi in a law,

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and the Fifth Circuit is where all of these sorts

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of things go because they are the most conservative circuit.

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So it was a little surprising that it was a

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unanimous decision. But that's very encouraging. But as I said,

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we've got a lot of other cases and laws going

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on in the United States where people are trying to

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shove their religion down our throats by getting the court

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to take advantage of this moment in time and do

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away with precedent. So that part still makes me very

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nervous about you.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm down here in deep South Alabama, you know,

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just just north of the Florida Panhandle, and I've had

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several conversations that absolutely terrify me around the fact that

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like when the no Kings protests were happening. I have

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had several conversations where people Alabama's have said, maybe we

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do need a king.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a Christian king at that of course.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well right, and just absolutely terrifying that that that

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they say these things. It's like, do you not understand

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what's going on? And I think that the brain rot

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has gone. You know, if you look at the bike

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and I know we all have, there's no support for democracy,

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there's no support for republic. It talks about kings, and

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it talks about God appointing kings. And I think the

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brain rot has gotten to it and I hate to use

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word brainmot when it comes to religion, but has gotten

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so bad on these evangelicals that they think that they

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should have a king because that's God or Dane. And

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I think that's that's a very strong thing, that that

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maybe we're all missing, because I don't know how many

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of us really get to have these types of conversations

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in Deep South. I mean, if you're living in Austin,

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maybe even Birmingham. I tend to think that those tend

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to be a little bit bluer than the rest of

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the states. And I am literally out here, you know,

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in the sticks, so well, very curious about.

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Speaker 1: There is hope from the religious side. I will point

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out that the plaintiffs in this case in Louisiana were

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a The main plaintiffs were a religiously diverse family of reverends.

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They were the ones suing to prevent this, along with

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other plaintiffs that were also reverends and people who were

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not religious. And recently we just had the Oklahoma law

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held to be unconstitutional by that very narrow majority that

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would have created the first religious public school. That plaintiff

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was the Attorney General of Oklahoma, who himself is a

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lifelong evangelical Christian. So we do have allies in this

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effort in the religious circles. So it is something that

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I think is an important conversation to have because I

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agree that you're right that when people look to the

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Bible for guidance on how to run their government, that

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throughout history has proven to be bad news, bad bad news.

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And that's you know, the core mission. I'll say it now, Okay,

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this is our disclaimer, right. The Atheist Experience is a

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product of the Athi Community of Austin, a five oh

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one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism,

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critical thinking, secular humanism, and what the separation of religion

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and government, and that is a core core thing that

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we worry about because you can sit here and ponder

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the existence of God or not. But as soon as

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you think that you know how God wants your government

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to work and that everybody needs to follow those rules,

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you get into real trouble.

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Speaker 2: Because, let's face it, the Bible says that you can

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pull slaves from your your neighbors. It also says that

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once they once they come in, come into your borders,

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you should treat them well. So if they're outside of

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your borders, you get enslaved them with there. If they're

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inside your borders, you had to treat them well. What

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that helps all that about? I mean, it's confusing, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. It is.

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Speaker 2: It's I was watching I haven't looked into this, and

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I really want to, but I watched a couple of

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YouTube videos where they were saying that one of the

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things that's some Nebraska farmers, because you know, Nebraska is

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just whining about being going broken a few months because

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trying to cancel a bunch of soybean contracts they've lost

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all their workers, field hands. But some of those Nebraska

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farmers were apparently thinking that black folk would come back

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and work their farms because black folk don't work interesting

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And I'm like, wow, if that's true, if that kind

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of you know, it goes back to you know, conversations

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you have in deep you know, in the sticks. If

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Nebraska farmers more than one of them is thinking this,

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that is some pretty scary racist bullshit to be thinking about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and one Wonders be saying, you know, you know,

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focusing on the topic of our show, Wonder Wonders, how

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biblical that is because you know, when you actually read

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the Bible and the context it was written in, and

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you understand who the audience was, and especially for the

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Old Testament, it was filled with xenophobia and racism.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: It's not something that I appreciate that there are liberal

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Christians who will say the Bible says love everybody, but

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when you actually read it, it is as you said, oh,

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you're you're taking slaves, like debt slaves from from your

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fellow Israelites. Okay, let them go in seven years, special

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rules for them and all that anybody else from not

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your city foreigners, slaves for life, sex, slaves for the

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women inherited to your children, all of that sort of stuff.

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So it's it's it's not I it's it's it's a

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lesson in how to institutionalize rules that support xenophobia and racism.

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If it is anything the Old Testament that is, that

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is what the law is all about. You know, women

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are property and anybody who's not of your tribe is

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property or less than property.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Tribalism is a huge problem with religion, the US

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first them mentality, no matter how you look at it,

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you know, and we see that in some of the

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calls we've had over the years where children have been

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kicked out of their homes by their parents for not

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being for not believing in God.

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Speaker 3: Right, you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the saddest calls that we get, in my opinion,

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are those where they are a young people whose parents

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have chosen hatred and unjustifiable beliefs. Not that they they

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not that they're absolutely wrong in everything, but their core

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beliefs are not justifiable in that they don't have any

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evidence that it's true, and they've chosen that over their

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own child, whether that's because that child is irreligious or

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a different religion or not of approved sexual orientation or

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whatever it may be. And we've had calls where people

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have been kicked out of their house and are struggling

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to even find a place to survive without becoming homeless.

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And it's if you need to again, I cite it

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all the time. You know, religion poisons everything. Hitchens hadn't

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hit the nail on the head. It works your way

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into your brain and you are convinced that whatever your

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preacher or your particular interpretation of your scripture says is reality,

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and then anybody else who goes against it is somehow

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your enemy, even your own child.

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Speaker 2: And that you said, yeah, it's a very horrible way

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to look at the world. And you know, and again

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you can see this in what's happening with evangelicals right

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now in the world around us, with you know, everything

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that's going on. You can see that this is just

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nothing but the pettiest, nastiest, grittiest tribalism going on. And

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that's you know, the attack on DEI. When you have

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twenty two year olds being appointed to positions in government

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that require deep expertise, much less people with brain worms,

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you know, it just makes no sense as to what

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is going on unless you have this God ordained it.

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Therefore it must be good view. And so you've got

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a God or Dane leader, no matter how craptastic that

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leader may be, and no matter how often he glitches

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in public.

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Speaker 1: So I'm going to go through a few announcements. We

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do have lines open. I'll encourage people to call in,

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especially if you are a theists. We tend to favor

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those calls. First, we'd love to talk to you, Obviously,

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we don't bite. We've had lots of different calls from

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lots of different faith systems, and we've made a lot

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of actual friends of people who aren't atheists. So we'd

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love to have a conversation with you about what you

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believe and why. But first we have some exciting announcements

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to make. First, it's that time of year again, Jim.

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I don't know if you've ever been. I have not.

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I'm hoping this year will be my first. We are

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excited to announce back. Cruise tickets are up for sale Forrest,

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j Mike, Doctor, Ben, Objectively, Dan and others you love

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will be there us August sixteenth, twenty twenty five and

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get your tickets in info at tiny dot cc slash

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back cruise tickets sell out fast, so get your tickets now.

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Have you ever been, Jim, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I have been once and it is absolutely amazing. When

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I went, we had two boats and so you you know,

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to go out. The actual event itself, going out and

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watching the bats come out is actually kind of amazing.

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But up until that happens, the camaraderie, the conversations, the

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people just in full atheist mode is just absolutely wonderful.

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There's you know, you don't have to keep any masks

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on on that cruise. The friends you make will be amazing.

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And then you get you know, if you ever wanted to,

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if you ever wanted to know if Forrest is really

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that way in life, you'll find out he really really

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is way in life. He you know, you push that

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magic button and get him talking about anything, and he

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is just that animated. Same with almost all the hosts.

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So if you ever wanted to talk to us in person,

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that is a great time to do it. Just keep

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in mind that we you know, we're trying to talk

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to everybody, so.

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Speaker 1: That a little monopolization going on.

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Speaker 2: Huh sometimes, I mean, nobody's intentionally doing it right. But

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the conversations you're having are are just so good that

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sometimes you really don't want to leave them. We're not

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talking about conversations about religion necessarily. It's conversations about anything

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and everything. The river running through Austin is really pretty,

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lots of trees, stuff like that. It's hard to tell

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your except for the skyscrapers. It's hard to tell a

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share in Amaker City. But even some of the skyscrapers

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are kind of kind of pretty as well, so they're

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just not squares. A lot of them aren't squares. So yeah,

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I've been.

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Speaker 1: My mother's from Texas, down in the town south of

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Houston called Annawhak, Texas. It's like one of those places

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you'd see in a Cohen Brothers movie. So love love

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Texas for its culture, for its heritage, and for a

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lot of There's a lot of great people, not just

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in Austin, but all over down in Texas. So I

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feel like we should let our viewers know we did

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have calls queued up. They have gotten dropped. I don't

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know if there is a technical issue going on, but

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we're going to keep going through announcements while we see

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call so if you were listening and you had your

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call dropped, please do call right back in. Sorry that

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you got dropped. I'm starting to see them come in now,

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so more announcements before we get to the calls. First

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of all, the way that we help in the world

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is by getting the word out that these conversations take place.

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I can't tell you the number of times I've had

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conversations with people who didn't even understand what we were

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talking about. They thought that we were evil people that

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had twenty eight eyes and were eating their babies. And

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then we have a conversation and they go, oh, well,

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I think I agree with you. Just last time I

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was on, somebody called in because I was talking about

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Christian nationalism and how it's a threat to our government

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and all this stuff. And this person was very upset

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and said, I can't believe that you think people are

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wrong and evil and call them Christian nationalists just because

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they believe in Christianity. And we had a healthy conversation

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saying oh, no, no, no, no, it's much more than that.

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They believe. They want to use the mechanisms of government

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to force their belief system into the public square as

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the favored religion, and he a Christian, was like, oh,

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I didn't know that this is a summary, and he

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was like, I think I agree with you. That shouldn't happen.

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And that's what we've seen with these court cases. I

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was talking about, we need to keep these conversations up

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because that person will now likely convince others that hey,

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that's bad to have the First Amendment being torn apart

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by these people who want to tear it down. So

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to that end, please like this video and subscribe to

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the channel, enable notifications and comment below on your favorite point.

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Your favorite callers ask questions, they will be answered by

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our viewers. That is how the algorithm will know that

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it can spread this particular video and all the videos

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on our channel around, so people become more and more

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aware that these conversations are taking place, and that information

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that they've heard in their church or mosque or synagogue

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may not be entirely accurate, and that there are some

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conversations to be had. You can also join our weekly

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watch parties at the Free Thought Library on Sundays for

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live viewings of Talk Heathen and the Atheist Experience. Every Sunday,

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the doors open at noon and it's a great place

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for building community. And finally we're going to do early on,

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we're going to do a big thank you to you

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know who, your favorite, our favorite, the crew who put

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this show together every week. Video operators, audio operators, note takes,

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call screeners, chat moderators. There they are. I don't know

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which one of them dropped all the calls, but we'll

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have them whipped with a wet noodle after the show.

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Thank you so much everybody for doing that.

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Speaker 2: Was volunteering for that. I think you need actually okay

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with you?

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Speaker 3: All right?

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Speaker 1: All right, why don't we jump into our calls if

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they've started coming back in Now We've got Alex from

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Iowa that we're going to talk to you next. And

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my note here for Alex says, what are your views

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on the relationship between the atheist position and the views

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that are not atheists? So I'm going to ask Alex,

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could you explain yourself by defining a couple of things

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for us. Could you first tell us what you think

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the atheist position is, and could you give us some

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examples of some views that you would like to juxtapose

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that against.

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Speaker 4: Okay, sure, So I guess what I was calling was

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to clarify a little bit on what the atheist position

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would be in relationship to other types of knowledge in

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the world. So, for instance, I don't know the atheists.

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I don't know how an atheist would take a view

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on the development of consciousness in the universe. I know

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that atheism doesn't strictly argue for this or for like,

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any specific view of how it came to be. But

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let's say one calls themselves an atheist and then reads

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about the development of consciousness in the universe and develops

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a type of philosophy that would extend consciousness beyond the

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human brain and even the human body, which would then

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require sort of beyond beyond strictly physical science with immutable

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laws to explain, like, how will atheist person relate to

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that development in their ideas?

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Speaker 1: Okay, so what we have here is a question, i e.

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What is the atheist position? And then we have some

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hypothetical you came up with of finding some sort of

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evidence of intelligence without a physical medium. Let's start with

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the first, which is what is the atheist position? I'll

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defer to Jim after I give mine to see what

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if we agree there are flavors of atheism that word

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is loosely used by various people. The way I use

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it is somebody who is not yet convinced that there

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is a god. It's that simple. So a glib way

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of putting it is asking you, do you collect stamps?

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You say no, okay, then you are a non stamp collector,

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famous YouTube channel, and then you ask, okay, what is

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a non stamp collector's position on consciousness in the universe?

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And you see that it's not really related. But I

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do want to answer the second part. But that's kind

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of my point. So Jim, how would you answer the

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what is atheism?

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Speaker 2: That's exactly it. Atheism is not a worldview. It is

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a plank in a worldview, but it is not someone

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else's worldview. I have met atheists who believe in fairies.

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I have met atheists who believe the moon landing was

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a hoax. I have met atheists who believe that they

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and cast spouse. So yeah, atheism is only regarding gods,

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so you know, Buddhists or atheists, so they have that's

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a worldview. I would argue that the Shinto religion is

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also atheists because they deal mostly in spirits. Is my understanding.

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Some Native American tribes, I would also define as atheists

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because they don't believe in in a God. Their great

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Spirit is kind of godlike, but doesn't really I don't

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think really fits that definition. Sure, so they would be

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atheists as well. So yeah, I think that your follow

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on question is nonsensical to ask what the atheist position

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is when atheism is not a worldview like Christianity is.

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Speaker 1: I'll sort of jump in and steal man the question

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for Alex to say that the question is okay for

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somebody who doesn't believe that there is a God, what

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methodology do you use to determine the truth value of claim?

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I'm guessing?

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Speaker 3: Is that?

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Speaker 1: Is that better? Is that a more abstract version? Alex?

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Speaker 4: Uh No, sorry, I was refer What I was asking was,

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I guess more of an historical question. So, if you're

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an individual who is in society today, let's say all

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their lives has been an atheist, and I think I

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think the answer given was almost satisfying that, Like, if

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you are an atheist and you just happen to also

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then start reading about other topics as a person who

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loves to read books, and then you start you start

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realizing that in the history of Western philosophy that God

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has a logical category that has to do with the

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transference of information between entities in the universe. So descartes,

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I think, therefore I am as a God category, and there.

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Speaker 1: Are Let's let's stop here, because you're starting to start,

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all right, So let's let's make it a little simpler.

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Let's back up and separate this from an atheism discussion,

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because you're making some assertions here or I can't I'm

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audibly not able to tell whether it's an assertion or

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hypothetical or what. So You're you're creating something called a

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God category. That's what you're proposing. Can you define that

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category for us? Well, I'm saying, can you define what

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is with the characteristics of the God category?

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Speaker 4: Part would define God as the at least having the

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characteristic of receiving the information, the felt information of all

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the entities in the universe.

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Speaker 1: And is that your definition? Is that your definition I'm

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asking for you? Is that your definition?

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Speaker 4: I'm being very clear, Well, my position is very clear

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that I'm talking about if I'm talking about an historical situation.

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If someone is reading is an atheist and also has

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these questions like, for instance.

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Speaker 1: What question? Give me, give me an example. Hold on, Alex, Alex, Okay,

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slow down, Slow the heck down. We've got a lot

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of time. I'm going to ask you questions and they'll

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let you explain. But you're rushing ahead without setting the

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stage for us. All right, So I've heard you mentioned

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godd category and lots of different other things. Let's talk

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about some examples you say when atheists posit these are

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pondered these questions. Can you give me the best example

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of the questions you're concerned about?

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Speaker 4: Okay? So the question that an atheist might ask, like

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myself would ask, is where does the logical category of

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God go? In the history of Western philosophy, as atheism

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emerges as an intellectual.

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Speaker 1: Tradition, I don't understand what you mean by where does

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it go? Do you use go in the sense of

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it went somewhere like it moved, or do you mean

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how where does it sit? In some literary categorization seem.

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Speaker 4: Will apply logical when atheists have applied logical categories, or

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in the history of Western philosophy, when logical categories are

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worked out to develop a metaphysical system, or whatever it

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might be, whatever we call God for the entire Western

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tradition has had a place, and even atheists. I feel

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like for North Whitehead, a very respected philosopher who uses

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a quote unquote god category in a way that I

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actually think is compatible with what your co host was

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talking about earlier, which I think I would be satisfied with.

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He uses the word God. I think he uses the

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word God in a way that is compatible with Western

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philosophy and in a way that exercises much of its

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cultish tenants. And I just think it complicates the relationship

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between being an atheist and spirituality. At least that was

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my thoughts.

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Speaker 2: But again, what do you what do you mean by

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what do you mean now? By by spirituality?

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Speaker 3: What is that?

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Speaker 2: What do you mean by that?

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Speaker 1: Thank you? That's my question. Something tell me what spiritual

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or spirituality means?

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Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, I guess a felt. I guess it would

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be a category that is completely non physical, or at

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least it interacts with physicality but is not limited to it.

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Speaker 2: And is that what does that mean? What do you mean?

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What do that now? I got asked to the question,

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I'm sorry because that that that answer was completely did

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not do anything for me. What do you mean it's

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not physical.

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Speaker 4: Hostibility, potentials and possibilities things that are not that have

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to happen but.

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Speaker 2: Have some So possibilities doesn't help help either. Right, anything

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is possible, right it is or maybe to come out of.

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Speaker 1: What possibility must be demonstrated. We can't say that ever.

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We were just having this conversation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, probability needs to be demonstrated. Possibility. It's possible for

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pigs to come flying out of my lily white backside.

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But I'm not wearing pigstye underwear anytime soon, So I

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don't care what's possible. I do care what's probable, because

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anything is possible. It's just the probability may be very

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very very very low. I'm close to zero. It really

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doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: I do want to before we go further, I do

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want to point out that I actually disagree with that

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everything is possible, because that opens the door to some

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craziness that one equals zero and you know, true equals

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false and all that. I don't think that everything is possible.

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We were just talking before the show about from Tracy

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Harris would constantly say possibility must be demonstrated. It's a

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small point, but I'm getting the sense from Alex that

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he would jump on something like that to say anything

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is possible to and run with it. So I want

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to be very careful with that, but please continue.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why I was saying, I don't care about possibility,

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I care about probability.

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Speaker 1: Right right, right, So so Alex, let's let's define further

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define spirituality, because it sounds like you're trying to use

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that as a differentiate to differentiate some things, whether they

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are thoughts or propositions or whatever they may be, from

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anything else that you categorized as physical, because you use

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you juxtaposed spiritual to physical. So can you further tell me? Well,

478
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,880
I think what is spirituality? What is spiritual? Can you

479
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,759
define that further? And how do we detect it?

480
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,640
Speaker 4: So like I said, well, first you gave me an example,

481
00:26:45,839 --> 00:26:48,160
and then I wasn't able to expand on what I

482
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,640
meant by possibility and potentials and even probabilities. I think

483
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,079
it's more probable, it's certainly more potentially. It's more probable

484
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:56,920
that your co hosts can reach out and touch you

485
00:26:57,079 --> 00:27:00,000
right now than I can because I'm not physically near you.

486
00:27:00,279 --> 00:27:02,799
I don't think that can only be reduced.

487
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:06,880
Speaker 1: You don't know that. Hey, this is not responding to

488
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,480
my question. Stop stop, Alex, this is not responding to

489
00:27:10,559 --> 00:27:13,920
my question. First of all, stop please stop talking before

490
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,319
I have to mute you. Okay, our show. We're asking

491
00:27:16,319 --> 00:27:18,640
you questions so we can come to an understanding, because

492
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,000
I have found that when we let you run, you

493
00:27:21,039 --> 00:27:23,640
start going off and into the weeds a little bit.

494
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,240
And we need to walk this through slowly. Anybody who's

495
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,799
got a defensible, well thought out position can explain it

496
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,799
very simply using simple definitions. And I asked you what

497
00:27:32,839 --> 00:27:35,480
do you mean by spiritual? And you started talking about

498
00:27:35,799 --> 00:27:38,119
you think it's possible that it is easier for Jim

499
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:39,960
to reach out and touch me than for you to

500
00:27:40,039 --> 00:27:43,480
do that. What does that have to do with spirituality?

501
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,160
Could you please define I think what makes something spiritual?

502
00:27:47,839 --> 00:27:49,880
Speaker 4: Are I think you are jumping ahead? Is what I

503
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,720
am saying when you ask me, are you going.

504
00:27:52,599 --> 00:27:54,799
Speaker 1: To define the words spiritual or not?

505
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 4: About five six minutes and thirty seconds ago, you asked

506
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,599
me to give you an example. Thankual, Alex, I gave

507
00:28:01,599 --> 00:28:03,759
you an example, and all.

508
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: Right, I'm muting him. I don't know. We're not dealing

509
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,640
with a court record and reading back the record and

510
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,279
all of this sort of stuff. If anybody ignored anything

511
00:28:12,319 --> 00:28:14,440
for six minutes, it's been Alex. Here, I'm going to

512
00:28:14,519 --> 00:28:17,480
unmute you. Alex. I've asked you a very simple question,

513
00:28:17,519 --> 00:28:20,119
and it's very telling that you don't have a ready answer.

514
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,480
Anybody that's an honest interlocutor would stop and say, oh, spiritual,

515
00:28:24,559 --> 00:28:26,519
let me define that for you. Here's my well thought

516
00:28:26,519 --> 00:28:30,279
out definition of spirituality and how it is juxtaposed against

517
00:28:30,319 --> 00:28:33,640
anything else. That's what I'm asking for because you brought

518
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,160
this up, so we need to have you define what

519
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,400
you mean by it. Jim wisely asked that, so can

520
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:43,680
you please define what you mean by spiritual?

521
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 4: Spiritual is a set of propositions which dynamically relate to

522
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,319
the physical world. In my view, the set of propositions

523
00:28:51,359 --> 00:28:54,759
relative to any physical coordinate in the universe is always

524
00:28:54,839 --> 00:28:59,440
and ever updated through the transmission of God, God's conceptual value,

525
00:28:59,519 --> 00:29:02,440
which is admitted to every physical entity in the universe.

526
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,359
Speaker 1: Now, okay, so let's back. Let's let's let's hold on.

527
00:29:06,599 --> 00:29:09,359
I want to make sure I understand your definition. Hold on, Jim,

528
00:29:10,519 --> 00:29:13,680
can we want to understand it? That's what I'm asking

529
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,279
could you please say that first part again. It is

530
00:29:16,319 --> 00:29:21,519
a category. Spirituality is a category of what category right

531
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:21,960
of what?

532
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 4: Yes, within a logical system, it is that what which

533
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,960
is able to transfer the set of propositions relative to

534
00:29:30,079 --> 00:29:32,319
any physical entity in the universe.

535
00:29:32,599 --> 00:29:35,359
Speaker 1: Okay, let's stop there, let's stop there, let's stop there,

536
00:29:35,519 --> 00:29:39,119
let's stop there, Alex stop. So I want to repeat

537
00:29:39,119 --> 00:29:42,920
this back and have Jim analyze this. It is a

538
00:29:43,039 --> 00:29:45,720
category of you didn't say you said of that, So

539
00:29:45,759 --> 00:29:49,039
I assume we'll just say things that are relate to

540
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:54,240
or facilitate the transfer. Say it again. This is dense.

541
00:29:54,519 --> 00:29:57,240
This is dense. So say it again. What's the definition?

542
00:29:57,519 --> 00:29:59,799
Not access is into thing?

543
00:30:00,079 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 4: Transfer the information between processes processes in the universe, which

544
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:08,000
are physical things. Things are processes. Because there are processes,

545
00:30:08,039 --> 00:30:09,400
they're able to be transferred.

546
00:30:10,039 --> 00:30:12,759
Speaker 1: What is being transferred information about the processes.

547
00:30:13,119 --> 00:30:14,279
Speaker 4: Yes, they're subjective.

548
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 1: Okay, so there's information about pro process Could you give

549
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,720
me an example of one example of information about a

550
00:30:21,759 --> 00:30:25,359
process that is that would fit into the spiritual category.

551
00:30:25,599 --> 00:30:27,759
Speaker 4: Yes, I think, well, I think this is the basis

552
00:30:27,759 --> 00:30:30,440
of causality. This is leading its hume. This is whitehead

553
00:30:30,599 --> 00:30:32,839
that when a leaf gets blown by the wind. The

554
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,880
only reason that I am able to interpret that leaf

555
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,880
being blown logically, I think, is that it's taken in

556
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,000
through the universe. God conceptually feels it, and then I

557
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:46,039
physically feel God's conceptual feeling of that leaf blowing, and

558
00:30:46,079 --> 00:30:46,759
I feel like, all.

559
00:30:46,759 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: Right, I'm going to I'm going to ask Jim. Sorry

560
00:30:49,079 --> 00:30:51,079
I had to mute there because I wanted Jim, what

561
00:30:51,119 --> 00:30:52,200
do you think? Jim?

562
00:30:52,319 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 2: Well, so let's assume that whatever he just said, and

563
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:57,720
I'm not sure he knows what he just said, but

564
00:30:58,359 --> 00:31:00,680
maybe maybe he does. Let's just say that is correct.

565
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,720
How would you go about disproving it? Not prove it, Alex,

566
00:31:03,839 --> 00:31:05,839
I want you to disprove it. How would you go

567
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:06,480
about doing that?

568
00:31:06,559 --> 00:31:06,759
Speaker 3: Yeah?

569
00:31:06,799 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 4: I get that as an atheist, and as an atheist

570
00:31:09,839 --> 00:31:12,839
doesn't seek to prove a specific I don't.

571
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 2: I don't care about atheism. We're not talking about atheistm

572
00:31:15,279 --> 00:31:18,119
We're talking about your claim. Wellnigure that you just made.

573
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 4: But my logic is the same win, my logic function

574
00:31:20,759 --> 00:31:22,599
is the same way. I don't think we differ. I

575
00:31:22,599 --> 00:31:24,240
think my logic function is the same way.

576
00:31:26,079 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 1: Logic And answer Jim's question, how would you disprove your

577
00:31:30,559 --> 00:31:34,359
claim that the only reason you perceive a leaf being

578
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,279
blown by the wind is because God perceives it first

579
00:31:37,559 --> 00:31:40,359
for using shorthand, how would you disprove that claim?

580
00:31:40,599 --> 00:31:42,759
Speaker 4: It's it's I don't think it's a belief. It's something

581
00:31:42,799 --> 00:31:44,880
that follows from a logical system, and I can choose

582
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:46,480
to believe it or not. I think that's I think

583
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:51,920
that's the that's the question.

584
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 2: Whether it's yes. I want to know how would you

585
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,279
go about disproving it, whether it's logical or whether it's

586
00:31:55,319 --> 00:31:57,279
logical or physical. I don't care how you do it.

587
00:31:57,279 --> 00:31:58,759
I want you to do it. Time to disprove it.

588
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 4: That does not how any logician would tell you propositions work.

589
00:32:02,559 --> 00:32:03,240
Not anyone.

590
00:32:03,839 --> 00:32:07,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's people who deal with empirical reality would

591
00:32:07,359 --> 00:32:10,039
ask you to work. Because you can define things into

592
00:32:10,079 --> 00:32:13,519
existence all you want. But in the end, where the

593
00:32:13,599 --> 00:32:16,240
rubber hits the rose, that road, after all of this

594
00:32:16,359 --> 00:32:19,559
navel gazing, the vast majority of people in this world,

595
00:32:19,599 --> 00:32:21,640
when they hear the word God, they think of an

596
00:32:21,799 --> 00:32:26,640
entity that affects the universe, and that that entity's desires

597
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,559
are knowable, and that people kill each other based over that. Okay,

598
00:32:30,799 --> 00:32:35,960
so I'm kind of done with this whole logical defining

599
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,880
stuff into existence, and I still think that Jim's question stands.

600
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 2: Go ahead, Jim, because my question is is simply based

601
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:46,039
on physics. Perception of belief only happens, according to you,

602
00:32:46,279 --> 00:32:49,880
because God pursues it and then we perceive it. That's physics,

603
00:32:50,079 --> 00:32:52,119
not logic, and I'm asking you to disprove it.

604
00:32:52,279 --> 00:32:55,079
Speaker 4: I agree, it's well, it's physics and logic. I don't

605
00:32:55,119 --> 00:32:57,720
see how they're possibly inable. I don't see how that that.

606
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 2: Because you're making physical clients. Thing you can do in

607
00:33:00,759 --> 00:33:03,920
science is not prove your claim, but attempt to disprove

608
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,440
your claim and fail. So I'm asking you to do

609
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,920
the best possible thing you can do and disprove your

610
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:14,680
claim that perception only happens through this intermediary you call God.

611
00:33:14,799 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 4: Well, science has a set of methodological approaches to empirical facts.

612
00:33:18,319 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 2: I st how about answering the question, Well.

613
00:33:21,799 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 4: Mine's the same thing. Mine is the same exact thing.

614
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,279
It creates a logical I just I don't think we

615
00:33:26,359 --> 00:33:28,079
did here in what I You are.

616
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: Not answering the question. I'm going to mute them again.

617
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,200
I'm going to mute them again, Alex, for the third

618
00:33:33,319 --> 00:33:35,359
or fourth time. Now we have asked you a question,

619
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,279
and you've spent three or four back and forth not

620
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,319
answering it. You've given excuses, defending it, all of that

621
00:33:41,359 --> 00:33:44,519
sort of stuff. Jim asked a very valid question. You've

622
00:33:44,519 --> 00:33:48,559
made a claim about the universe that we are Perception,

623
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,079
which is a physical process, is dependent upon some other

624
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,799
process i e. God perceiving things right now, any good

625
00:33:55,839 --> 00:33:58,480
scientists when they set up an experiment, one of the

626
00:33:58,559 --> 00:34:02,039
questions they ask is how what I disprove my hypothesis.

627
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,720
That is what Jim is asking. You have made a hypothesis,

628
00:34:04,839 --> 00:34:07,079
You've made a proposition. I know you want to say

629
00:34:07,079 --> 00:34:10,199
it's purely thought. But unless you're willing to say it

630
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,840
is impossible for you to be wrong. You need to

631
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,440
tell us how you could be wrong. So Jim is asking,

632
00:34:15,679 --> 00:34:17,880
how could you be wrong? Tell us the ways that

633
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:19,320
we could find out that you're wrong.

634
00:34:19,599 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 4: Go ahead, Okay, I understand your question. I'm telling you

635
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,960
no philosopher in the history of Western philosophy operates this way.

636
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,159
Speaker 1: All right, So I don't know, Jim, is there any

637
00:34:28,159 --> 00:34:30,480
other parts of this conversation you wanted are you curious

638
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,239
about anything, because he's obviously not answering the question.

639
00:34:33,519 --> 00:34:38,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, philosophers, I mean science is a branch of philosophy,

640
00:34:39,119 --> 00:34:44,960
so is religion is a branch of philosophy. But okay,

641
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,639
yes they do because science is a branch of philosophy. Also,

642
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,639
trying to disprove what you're doing is an important thing

643
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:53,800
when you're doing philosophy. One of the things you have

644
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,679
to do when you're writing a philosophical article is anticipate

645
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,639
how people are going to attack your event so that

646
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:04,760
you can bolster it and hopefully head off anything that

647
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:06,639
they're talking about that they're going to attack you on.

648
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:11,000
This is just you know, basics of doing philosophy is

649
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,159
how could I be wrong? Is to examine yourself. The

650
00:35:14,199 --> 00:35:19,039
self examined life isn't worth living, The self examined proposition

651
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,000
isn't worth spewing out of your mouth. It's just not

652
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,360
You've got to start with, okay, how could I be wrong?

653
00:35:26,559 --> 00:35:29,159
And then fail to prove yourself wrong? And we see

654
00:35:29,159 --> 00:35:30,440
that over and over again.

655
00:35:30,679 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 3: You know.

656
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 2: Sherlock Holmes famously did it in the Sign of the

657
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:39,239
Four Locked Room Murder Mystery. Right. The first thing he

658
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,280
does in that murder mystery is prove that there is

659
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:44,880
no The only way that that person could have been

660
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,719
killed was if somebody had left the room, and of

661
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,119
course the room can only be locked from the inside. Well,

662
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,400
that's starting with how do I prove myself wrong? We

663
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:55,480
see this over and over again, so that when you say,

664
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,719
if a philosophy doesn't do that, I think you're fundamentally wrong.

665
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to I want to agree with Jim

666
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,599
and ask you a question, Alex, because I think what

667
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:08,960
you are saying, if i'm I've want to steal man

668
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:14,360
your position is you're you are making a purely logical argument.

669
00:36:14,639 --> 00:36:17,679
That's that's where I think you could You could arguably say, well,

670
00:36:17,679 --> 00:36:19,639
that's not how philosophers do it. They don't they don't

671
00:36:19,639 --> 00:36:24,559
do any methodological experiments, et cetera. You know, I'm I'm

672
00:36:24,559 --> 00:36:27,840
going to start with the basic laws of logic, and

673
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,119
from there I'm going to make certain conclusions, and I

674
00:36:30,159 --> 00:36:33,639
can prove mathematically that this is all true from just

675
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,320
accepting the three basic laws of logic. Right there, If

676
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:41,000
logic holds, you're right, you don't, there's no experiment to do.

677
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,760
But that's not what we're dealing with here. You. You

678
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:48,960
pulled in things like perception and leafs blowing. That's all

679
00:36:49,159 --> 00:36:51,719
physical reality.

680
00:36:51,199 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 4: Stuff, that phenomenology. But okay, okay, yes, I think that's fair.

681
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,239
That's fair. I just want to say to anyone watching

682
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:00,199
on me, where I'm getting my ideas from this alf

683
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,480
North Whitehead's process in reality.

684
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:06,079
Speaker 1: I'm not here to let him promote. I don't know

685
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:08,840
he wants to preach, he doesn't want to engage. Do

686
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,239
you have any other questions for Alex? I have one,

687
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:12,760
but I'm worried that if I do, it's just going

688
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:13,599
to be more of the same.

689
00:37:13,679 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 2: So no, I think that that he has completely failed

690
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,400
to make a point and failed to stay on topic.

691
00:37:20,679 --> 00:37:25,199
Speaker 1: Okay, Alex, wish you the best callback if you're ready,

692
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,320
ready to talk like a normal human being. I'm not

693
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,840
sure what your goal was here. Your original call was

694
00:37:33,159 --> 00:37:36,280
how does an atheist view things differently than a non

695
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:41,239
other non atheist viewpoints or something like that. I'm going

696
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,840
to go out on a limb and say, I believe

697
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,039
that your your premise of your call that you gave

698
00:37:47,079 --> 00:37:49,639
our note taker was not really genuine. I don't think

699
00:37:49,679 --> 00:37:51,920
you were being very genuine. I thought I think that

700
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,320
you were trying to get on the air to just

701
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:58,760
sort of assert these things. So it's disappoint when that happens.

702
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, even if it was anyone, and I'm not going

703
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:02,960
to make any comment on that, I don't know enough

704
00:38:03,039 --> 00:38:06,559
one way or the other. But you're confusing atheism as

705
00:38:06,679 --> 00:38:12,400
a worldview or a philosophy, and confusing it as anything

706
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:16,519
more than a single answer to a single question. I

707
00:38:16,559 --> 00:38:20,599
wouldn't consider Western philosophy to be atheistic in any way,

708
00:38:20,639 --> 00:38:25,280
shape or form, just because it's philosophy and atheism is

709
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,800
one qu an answer to one question. It's a single

710
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,239
position on a single question, on a single proposition. That's

711
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,320
all it is. And you're trying to make it out

712
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,000
to be something more. And so I think everything you

713
00:38:37,119 --> 00:38:40,840
try after that is just fundamentally flawed from that point

714
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:41,199
of view.

715
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 1: I totally agree. Yeah, I think I think if we

716
00:38:44,039 --> 00:38:47,320
rephrase the question of what method do you use? What

717
00:38:47,559 --> 00:38:52,719
methods do atheists tend to use to discern truth? Maybe

718
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:54,719
that's what he's getting at, because he's trying to he's

719
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:57,639
trying to insert God between us and truth, that we

720
00:38:58,039 --> 00:39:00,320
get truth because God gets through the method and I

721
00:39:00,519 --> 00:39:04,840
use personally is something that is something like the scientific method.

722
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,880
I strive to sort of follow that. It seems to

723
00:39:08,039 --> 00:39:11,000
have produced results. I don't know about you, Jim, it's

724
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:11,480
pretty good.

725
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,119
Speaker 2: I use pologious definition because I really do like it.

726
00:39:15,119 --> 00:39:17,679
It's the truth is that which comports with the reality

727
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:19,960
as adjudicated by predictive power.

728
00:39:20,119 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 1: That's a good one.

729
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 2: And I really like that last bit because it gives

730
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,800
us a way to test whether something is true. Right.

731
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:29,880
If something is true, that means we can make some

732
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:33,119
predictions off of that. If I say that one plus

733
00:39:33,199 --> 00:39:36,599
one equals too, I can predict that if I go

734
00:39:36,639 --> 00:39:39,119
and grab two rocks and put them in the same circle,

735
00:39:39,159 --> 00:39:41,159
that I'll have two rocks in the circle. Oh look,

736
00:39:41,199 --> 00:39:44,840
I do right. I mean it's not always that simple.

737
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,800
I am oversimplifying for the sick of the conversation, right right, boy?

738
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:54,480
That is exactly what you need to do, is to

739
00:39:54,519 --> 00:39:56,920
see what is the predictive power. So, if we take

740
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,840
the call we just had, if God is the arbitrare

741
00:40:00,119 --> 00:40:04,119
of what we perceive, does that mean people who hallucinate

742
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:06,840
God is hallucinating? Or does it mean there's an imperfect

743
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,199
connection to God? How would you go about looking at

744
00:40:09,519 --> 00:40:10,880
these types of things.

745
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 1: Especially when we and that imperfect connection would be a

746
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:15,199
physical thing.

747
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:16,519
Speaker 3: More than likely.

748
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:20,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, something along those lines. We know that the you know,

749
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,880
the brain is neurochemical anyway, so it's just the whole

750
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,360
thing start with. If you're going to have a proposition,

751
00:40:27,639 --> 00:40:29,840
try and disprove it first, or at least try to

752
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,519
attack it so that you can strengthen it before you

753
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:34,760
put it out there in the universe.

754
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,119
Speaker 1: Well, we have another call. We have lots of calls.

755
00:40:38,159 --> 00:40:39,679
I'm going to try to get through them, but we

756
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:43,079
have another call that where I want to juxtapose how

757
00:40:43,159 --> 00:40:45,519
Alex was answering our questions with how we're going to

758
00:40:45,519 --> 00:40:49,599
answer this question that our caller has. Luke from Canada

759
00:40:49,639 --> 00:40:53,039
is asking how can you atheists be wrong? Turning the

760
00:40:53,119 --> 00:40:57,519
question on us. Okay, so I'm going to make sure

761
00:40:57,559 --> 00:40:59,079
that I understand that that's the right question.

762
00:40:59,159 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 3: Luke.

763
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 1: Could you please confirm that that is the question? How

764
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:03,159
can we be wrong?

765
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 3: That's correct?

766
00:41:04,559 --> 00:41:11,119
Speaker 1: Excellent, So I'll kick it over to Jim. Jim, would

767
00:41:11,639 --> 00:41:13,840
what would make you no longer be an atheist?

768
00:41:14,039 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 2: Well, I think the question is how do we prove

769
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:19,480
that our atheism at least appears to be true? And

770
00:41:19,519 --> 00:41:22,599
that is to examine all of the arguments that are

771
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,400
for God. So you're we're looking at the teleological, the onological,

772
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:33,599
the cosmological arguments, the argument for morals. I'm missing several.

773
00:41:33,639 --> 00:41:36,679
Speaker 1: I think there's a whole bunch, right, and there's just

774
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,400
plain old experience and evidence and all of those sorts

775
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,000
of things. And I will say the question is a

776
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,880
little flawed when it says you're atheists. How can atheists

777
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,239
be wrong? I think what you mean is is what

778
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,920
would convince you that there was a god? Because it

779
00:41:50,039 --> 00:41:52,880
is true that Jim and I are not yet convinced

780
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,639
that there is any that there are any gods. That

781
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:59,039
can't be a right or wrong thing, like unless I'm lying,

782
00:41:59,039 --> 00:42:01,480
which I'm not right, So I think what you mean

783
00:42:01,599 --> 00:42:03,559
is what would convince us that there was at least

784
00:42:03,599 --> 00:42:06,440
one God? And I agree that all of these things, Jim,

785
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,400
you have to examine, please go on, right.

786
00:42:08,639 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 2: So, and I've looked at all those arguments and I

787
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:15,239
have found them to fail. I have also looked at

788
00:42:15,519 --> 00:42:19,559
the most common definition of God in the Christian world

789
00:42:20,119 --> 00:42:22,480
and maybe the Islamic world as well, and that is

790
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,559
a God who is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnia benevalent, and

791
00:42:25,599 --> 00:42:29,039
I find that that God is logically impossible, and so

792
00:42:29,159 --> 00:42:33,239
I am left with technically I am an agnostic. I

793
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:37,719
don't necessarily make the negative claim, although I do for

794
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:41,280
the omni Triomni God that I just mentioned, you know, omnibenevalent,

795
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:45,639
omnipotent and omniscient, that god cannot logically exist. So I

796
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:49,239
am an atheist for that god for every other god

797
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:53,079
that I It's like, these arguments fail, but just because

798
00:42:53,079 --> 00:42:55,960
they fail doesn't mean that there isn't a God who

799
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,920
is not a non Omni god. So that's where I land,

800
00:43:00,039 --> 00:43:03,119
and on that question, I do examine these things, and

801
00:43:03,159 --> 00:43:07,360
I'm here on this show right now as is the

802
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:11,360
cross Examiner to find somebody who can actually give us

803
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,679
an argument that isn't one of these well known arguments,

804
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,159
and to actually prove it to us. So we are

805
00:43:18,199 --> 00:43:21,920
constantly examining in our cases. And not every atheist does this,

806
00:43:22,039 --> 00:43:24,159
nor do I think every atheist needs to to be

807
00:43:24,199 --> 00:43:26,079
an atheist, So that's how we do it. Does that

808
00:43:26,119 --> 00:43:26,559
make sense?

809
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:31,519
Speaker 3: Not quite? The question is what would convince you? What

810
00:43:31,679 --> 00:43:37,639
I hear and I understand you say is something convincing.

811
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:40,280
So what I mean by that is that all the

812
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:44,719
arguments that you heard weren't convincing. Therefore you weren't convinced.

813
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,880
And what we convince you convincing? You don't know what,

814
00:43:48,519 --> 00:43:50,519
but you haven't heard it yet, I.

815
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 1: Would go, I would go a little further. I agree

816
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,159
with that to some degree, like I agree that the question,

817
00:43:56,159 --> 00:43:59,559
the proper question, is what would change my mind? I

818
00:43:59,599 --> 00:44:02,840
don't go to where Jim says that an agnostic is

819
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:06,239
somebody who is not yet convinced, while an atheist is

820
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,039
somebody who is who says there is no God. But

821
00:44:09,119 --> 00:44:11,599
that's a linguistic difference. We're on the same page. I'm

822
00:44:11,639 --> 00:44:14,639
not yet convinced whatever in the category that means. So

823
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,800
what would convince me? My glib answer is what you

824
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:21,199
just said, Luke, which I don't know. But then I

825
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:25,239
also add, but all the gods that matter to people

826
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,400
that have been proposed to me would know, and they

827
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:30,800
would also have the power to convince me. They would

828
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:34,679
have the power to produce some sort of evidence, create

829
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:38,079
some sort of experience, or just simply change my mind

830
00:44:38,199 --> 00:44:40,559
or write it on my heart, or however you phrase it.

831
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,599
So I don't know. It would sort of be like

832
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:47,880
me asking you. What would convince you that there's a

833
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,119
part of the universe where true can equal false. I

834
00:44:51,159 --> 00:44:54,000
don't know what convinced me of that, but if there

835
00:44:54,039 --> 00:44:56,079
is something that can make that happen, hopefully it can

836
00:44:56,119 --> 00:44:58,880
demonstrate that to me. What are your thoughts about that?

837
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,079
I don't know, but all the models of God that

838
00:45:02,119 --> 00:45:04,840
have been presented me would know, and they had sailed

839
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:07,239
to do so so far. Does that satisfy you? Do

840
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:08,280
you understand my position?

841
00:45:08,519 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 3: I understand your position, but no, I'm not satis size.

842
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:15,000
I'm sorry. If one where to say, I don know

843
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:19,639
to the question God exists? When you ask what we

844
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,679
come into that he doesn't exist? You know, like present

845
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,719
in color, you would say, no, that's not enough. I

846
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:29,360
need more. I need something like like you you presented

847
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,760
with science? What science does? It tries the best to

848
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:36,599
examine to prove that they are wrong in their position. Right,

849
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,719
That's how scientists too. And this is not something that you,

850
00:45:40,119 --> 00:45:42,800
either of you are doing right now. What you are doing,

851
00:45:44,119 --> 00:45:47,960
that's that's that's the point. Hold on, hold on, Luke, Luke, Luke,

852
00:45:48,039 --> 00:45:48,920
you made a claim there.

853
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 1: We have to stop. Why do you think we're on this.

854
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,679
Speaker 3: Show to make fun of a feast.

855
00:45:55,039 --> 00:45:58,840
Speaker 1: No, I am here asking for people to give me

856
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:03,239
evidence of a God. I am open to the possibility

857
00:46:03,599 --> 00:46:05,920
that a God may exist, that somebody can call up

858
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,440
and say, there's this new observation that was made, there's

859
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:12,679
this new logical argument, there's all of this sort of stuff. Right.

860
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:15,559
That is why I do this. I don't get paid

861
00:46:15,599 --> 00:46:18,119
for this. I want to come on and say, hey,

862
00:46:18,519 --> 00:46:22,519
to date, there is no Nobel prize for the invention

863
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:26,360
or discovery of God. Otherwise, if people have figured that

864
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:31,000
out in a manner to be definitive enough to justify

865
00:46:31,039 --> 00:46:32,920
all the shit we see going on in the world

866
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,239
in the name of God, if people had proven it

867
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,400
to that level, every university on earth would have a

868
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:42,440
department of God studies. We don't live in that world.

869
00:46:42,679 --> 00:46:46,039
There's no way that you can say that we have

870
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:49,559
proven that people have definitively proven. The amount of disagreement

871
00:46:49,639 --> 00:46:52,119
we have, the amount of strife we have, and the

872
00:46:52,159 --> 00:46:55,559
amount of just plain old illogic that we suffer from

873
00:46:55,559 --> 00:46:58,280
people who try to who do believe in God for

874
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:02,559
the wrong reasons demonstrates that nobody has been able to

875
00:47:02,679 --> 00:47:04,719
establish that there is a God. And that is why

876
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:07,079
I don't believe. But I am here taking calls every

877
00:47:07,119 --> 00:47:10,840
week from people and have a lot of good conversations

878
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:13,760
where people raise interesting points and I am open to

879
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:16,639
being convinced. Does that satisfy you?

880
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 3: So you claim that nobody has the answer to your question?

881
00:47:20,079 --> 00:47:23,719
Is now you claim that nobody has been able to

882
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,960
demonstrate that God exists. But you have people who said

883
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:30,519
that I've been convinced because it is because of the

884
00:47:30,559 --> 00:47:33,760
demonstiction that was pretended to me. The evidence and we

885
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:37,679
authented that do not convince you too? Are some some

886
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:41,760
people will claim that they were convinced because of those

887
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:44,199
demonstrations that are not convincing to you.

888
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 2: So that's why some people, some people have a very

889
00:47:47,519 --> 00:47:50,440
low bar, low apostomic bar, and that's fine.

890
00:47:50,639 --> 00:47:51,079
Speaker 3: We do not.

891
00:47:51,199 --> 00:47:53,599
Speaker 2: We want to believe as many sure things as possible

892
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:57,039
and as you false thanes as possible, and that means

893
00:47:57,039 --> 00:48:00,639
that we have a higher apostomic bar. Like to point

894
00:48:00,639 --> 00:48:04,119
out that in over two thousand years of scientific discovery,

895
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:07,119
not once have we found God to be the cause

896
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:10,679
of anything, nor have we found any reason to assume

897
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:14,440
that God has done anything. We have found naturalistic processes

898
00:48:14,559 --> 00:48:17,039
for things that two thousand years ago were claimed to

899
00:48:17,039 --> 00:48:20,280
be supernatural in origin, and we and sciences prove that

900
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:23,440
it is not the case. There is simply nothing to

901
00:48:23,679 --> 00:48:26,760
point to a god now Christ.

902
00:48:28,039 --> 00:48:32,280
Speaker 1: And to Luke's point, the people who claim to have

903
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:36,320
become convinced in my experience and I'm sure your experience, Jim,

904
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:41,199
disagree with each other in droves in the details that matter.

905
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:47,559
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, absolutely, Yeah, I forgot where I was going.

906
00:48:47,599 --> 00:48:51,559
But yeah, basically, and nobody and none of the major

907
00:48:51,679 --> 00:48:54,559
Christian religions agree with each other, none of the major

908
00:48:54,639 --> 00:48:58,920
Islamic religions agree with each other on fundamental points. And

909
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,440
so it doesn't seem like there is a single source

910
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:05,920
for this god client that that can run consistent.

911
00:49:06,119 --> 00:49:11,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, the methodologically, uh, the methodology that people are using

912
00:49:11,199 --> 00:49:14,760
to come up with an affirmation of these claims comes

913
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:19,079
up with contradictory answers based on which culture the person

914
00:49:19,159 --> 00:49:23,920
comes from, which religion they were taught, all sorts of

915
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:27,880
things seem to be more determinative of your religious beliefs

916
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:32,320
rather than a system of determining belief. So how would

917
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:36,159
you explain that, Luke? How what should convince us that

918
00:49:36,199 --> 00:49:39,360
there is a God? And specifically which god should we

919
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:40,280
be convinced of.

920
00:49:40,519 --> 00:49:43,280
Speaker 3: So cross take something here. The trouble I'm having here

921
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,440
is that the reason why I say people has been

922
00:49:46,679 --> 00:49:49,519
convinced by the DEMONSTICI is the demonstition of a god,

923
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:53,960
God any god. But at the right you are correct demonstrated.

924
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:58,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, but do you agree that. Let's just make it

925
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:02,079
real simple. Let's say half the world believes in God

926
00:50:02,159 --> 00:50:05,360
A and half the world believes in God Be, and

927
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,760
God A says X is true and God Be says

928
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:12,400
X is false. Those people and that that is core

929
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:14,519
to the belief system. If X is true, then God

930
00:50:14,559 --> 00:50:17,079
A is is true. And if X is false, then

931
00:50:17,119 --> 00:50:19,960
God Be is true. Half of those people are wrong

932
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:23,519
at least right logically speaking. And this is just a hypothetical.

933
00:50:23,559 --> 00:50:25,559
I'm not trying to trap you, but can we agree on.

934
00:50:25,519 --> 00:50:29,719
Speaker 3: That is X a state of AfOR like I'm.

935
00:50:29,599 --> 00:50:33,119
Speaker 1: Just as part of a hypothetical, I'm just saying that

936
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:36,400
the God A and God Be have dynamically opposed claims

937
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:38,719
about reality that if they are proven to be wrong,

938
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:42,039
that God does not exist. So if we have two

939
00:50:42,079 --> 00:50:45,199
groups of people agreeing on two different versions of a

940
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:48,400
God that may contradictively claims about their own existence or

941
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:52,480
about the universe. Those half of those people are wrong.

942
00:50:52,559 --> 00:50:56,559
Speaker 3: Correct someone For example, bacon. Beacon is one of the

943
00:50:56,599 --> 00:51:00,400
examples I often use as a group says bacon good,

944
00:51:00,519 --> 00:51:03,599
the other says bacon's bad. So you have two gods,

945
00:51:03,639 --> 00:51:07,320
two claims about bacon, and one of those two is incorrect.

946
00:51:07,599 --> 00:51:09,719
Speaker 1: Okay, I thank you for that. That's a good example.

947
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:11,880
It's not at the core of the belief. You could

948
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:14,159
just be wrong about that one particular aspect. But we

949
00:51:14,199 --> 00:51:16,480
at least understand the concept that people have used a

950
00:51:16,559 --> 00:51:19,719
method to come to a belief about a claim and

951
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:22,519
they're wrong. And we see that a lot. And given

952
00:51:22,519 --> 00:51:26,199
the number of religions that make contradictory claims, if one

953
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:29,159
of them is actually correct, they're probably in the minority.

954
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:32,159
More people are wrong about their religion then the right

955
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:36,960
religion is about itself. So what's wrong with this picture?

956
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:41,199
If there were a god that you could discover through evidence, logic,

957
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:43,760
reasoning and all of that, shouldn't we have come to

958
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:46,800
some consensus about it? And by now, no, okay, why not?

959
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:51,519
Real trivial sou does it matter? What is? I assume

960
00:51:51,559 --> 00:51:52,719
you believe in some sort of god?

961
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:55,039
Speaker 3: Correct? I'm sorry, you're Catholic.

962
00:51:55,239 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 1: What, Okay, that's quite all right. So I put then you,

963
00:52:00,679 --> 00:52:04,079
I'm gonna confirm this. You believe in an afterlife?

964
00:52:04,199 --> 00:52:04,599
Speaker 3: Correct?

965
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:06,760
Speaker 1: Okay, so it's pretty high stakes for you.

966
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:08,320
Speaker 3: What is pretty high stakes?

967
00:52:08,519 --> 00:52:11,679
Speaker 1: Your belief that that if this God, your God, is

968
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:14,440
true and your faith in him will be rewarded if

969
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:18,800
with an afterlife. If you're wrong, that's not a trivial belief.

970
00:52:19,079 --> 00:52:20,880
It's not a trivial error. Correct.

971
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 3: Yes, what's the alternative?

972
00:52:23,159 --> 00:52:26,800
Speaker 1: The alternatives are some other God is right, You're only

973
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:30,440
partially right, and there is no afterlife. You're partially right,

974
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:32,679
but you should be doing evil and if you don't

975
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:36,039
do evil you will be punished, or there is no God.

976
00:52:36,079 --> 00:52:40,280
There's lots of alternatives, but they're all not trivial alatives.

977
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:44,079
Speaker 3: Maybe it's better for me to believe there is the

978
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:49,079
If the alternative is nothing like aists proposed, then right, No,

979
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:51,119
the steak is.

980
00:52:51,039 --> 00:52:52,320
Speaker 1: Not high for.

981
00:52:54,119 --> 00:52:54,199
Speaker 3: Me.

982
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 1: For you, What about the rest of the world.

983
00:52:56,039 --> 00:52:57,239
Speaker 3: I don't to send you a question.

984
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:00,280
Speaker 1: We have people killing each other in the Middle East.

985
00:53:00,559 --> 00:53:03,920
We have parents in Idaho who are killing their children

986
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:06,800
because of faith healing. We have people trying to control

987
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:10,239
our government and force certain beliefs into our kids' heads,

988
00:53:10,639 --> 00:53:13,480
all in the name of a religion that, by your admitting,

989
00:53:13,559 --> 00:53:16,119
could be wrong, but you claim is trivial. I don't

990
00:53:16,119 --> 00:53:19,039
see these things as trivial. I think it's incredibly important.

991
00:53:19,159 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 3: It is important for them to have their correct religion.

992
00:53:22,119 --> 00:53:23,440
Being Cafelice, Yes, but.

993
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:26,599
Speaker 1: You can't prove that the Catholicism is the correct religion.

994
00:53:26,679 --> 00:53:28,280
So why should we become convinced?

995
00:53:28,559 --> 00:53:30,920
Speaker 3: Well to be able to prove that Compelicism is the

996
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:33,079
correct one, we need to have it to a common

997
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:37,400
knowledge that we can build from, a common ground that

998
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:41,079
we can built from to discern which religion is the

999
00:53:41,119 --> 00:53:43,599
correct one? How to discern between the true relition and

1000
00:53:43,599 --> 00:53:47,079
the false ess It's another conversation, then the how can

1001
00:53:47,119 --> 00:53:48,039
I be wrong? Question?

1002
00:53:48,199 --> 00:53:51,280
Speaker 1: Let's have it, Jim, Jim, ask him a question.

1003
00:53:52,159 --> 00:53:55,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, I'm just going to say that the free

1004
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:58,000
will cop out for why there's evil in the world.

1005
00:53:58,159 --> 00:54:01,000
It is a cop out. I mean, it's a nonsensical

1006
00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:05,239
because it basically you and this, this is what's going

1007
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:06,199
to happen in this conversation.

1008
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:08,280
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Jim, I'm gonna interrupt you for just a second.

1009
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:10,679
Did he say free will. I thought he said trivial,

1010
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:15,679
no free will. Oh okay, sorry, go ahead, Yeah, so okay.

1011
00:54:15,599 --> 00:54:19,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this this happen in this conversation, Luke is

1012
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:22,880
I'm going to argue for an omnipotent God and you're

1013
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:24,719
not going to do that. I want to make that

1014
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:27,880
prediction right now because what I'm going to argue is

1015
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:31,920
that if your God was omnipotent, If your God was omnipotent,

1016
00:54:32,119 --> 00:54:34,519
free will is not an issue because your God could

1017
00:54:34,559 --> 00:54:38,239
figure out a way without violating free will to prevent

1018
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:42,159
evil because he's omnipotent and omniscient, and he's omnibous, benevolent,

1019
00:54:42,199 --> 00:54:46,119
and he wants to. So you by saying free will

1020
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:48,320
is the reason why there's evil in the world is

1021
00:54:48,559 --> 00:54:51,280
basically you're saying your God is not omnipotent.

1022
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:54,880
Speaker 3: This is fruceeding. So, Jim I was, I was praying

1023
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:58,079
to agree with you before you went on the rest

1024
00:54:58,159 --> 00:55:01,280
of the phrase. I said, Yeah, the omnipens that to

1025
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:04,519
present it is not the omnipotence of the real God.

1026
00:55:05,119 --> 00:55:08,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, people have got people have gone away because well

1027
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:12,519
hold on, because because atheists like us have pointed out

1028
00:55:12,519 --> 00:55:17,559
the problems with the tri omni god. Modern religious philosophers

1029
00:55:17,559 --> 00:55:20,360
have moved the goalposts and now call it a maximally

1030
00:55:20,559 --> 00:55:24,159
powerful and maximally loving and maximally all of this stuff

1031
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:27,000
to get around this, right, But that.

1032
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:29,800
Speaker 2: Doesn't really, that doesn't fix the argument at all.

1033
00:55:30,079 --> 00:55:32,360
Speaker 1: Well, it does, because then they can they can take

1034
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:36,079
that argument of can God create a burrito so hot

1035
00:55:36,159 --> 00:55:39,679
that even he can't eat it and explain away through

1036
00:55:40,159 --> 00:55:43,000
shaking of hands that his maximal power doesn't exceed that.

1037
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:46,920
Speaker 2: I'm not No. My argument is that even a maximally

1038
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:51,920
power God would still be able to prevent evil because

1039
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:56,960
he's also maximally omniscient or maximally imniscient. When everyone phrase that,

1040
00:55:57,320 --> 00:55:59,840
actually we'll just use the omnis and there's no logical

1041
00:56:00,039 --> 00:56:03,360
possibilities because that's basically what maximum does, right. I'm saying that,

1042
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:07,400
without logical possibilities, that your God has a way to

1043
00:56:07,519 --> 00:56:11,760
prevent evil without violating free will, not the maximally god.

1044
00:56:12,519 --> 00:56:15,800
No definition of that type of god, omni or maxim

1045
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:18,079
I don't care which those two you use gets out

1046
00:56:18,079 --> 00:56:21,920
of this, because you could only think of free will,

1047
00:56:22,079 --> 00:56:24,480
and there's a billion other different ways that I can

1048
00:56:24,519 --> 00:56:27,559
think of if I spend enough time that you could

1049
00:56:27,559 --> 00:56:30,679
do without ever violating free will. That you're arguing for

1050
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:33,880
a lesson maximually powerful god or a lesson omnipotent God.

1051
00:56:34,079 --> 00:56:36,800
You're arguing for a god you that you I don't

1052
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:37,480
think you believe in.

1053
00:56:37,559 --> 00:56:40,519
Speaker 5: When you think about that, Luke, I'm not sure you

1054
00:56:40,599 --> 00:56:46,920
claim that the maximally knowledgeable God doesn't wouldn't allow free

1055
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:49,079
will or without allow suffering in the world.

1056
00:56:49,159 --> 00:56:50,719
Speaker 3: That's what you're saying, Jim, right.

1057
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:56,559
Speaker 2: The maximally benevolent, maximally knowledgeable, maximally powerful God does not

1058
00:56:56,760 --> 00:57:00,519
exist because evil exists in the world, and your free

1059
00:57:00,559 --> 00:57:04,440
will excuse is just that as an excuse, and you're

1060
00:57:04,559 --> 00:57:07,679
arguing for a God that is not maximally powerful or

1061
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:10,840
maximumally knowledgeable or maximally benevolent.

1062
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 1: And we could also throw when you haven't demonstrated that

1063
00:57:13,039 --> 00:57:16,280
free will exists, But that's a whole other conversation. Yeah,

1064
00:57:17,639 --> 00:57:21,119
to break to break down Jim's argument, it's basically saying

1065
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:24,639
all versions of the God we've been presented would have

1066
00:57:24,679 --> 00:57:28,199
the capability of creating and designing a universe where this

1067
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:31,000
evil would not happen and it wouldn't violate any sort

1068
00:57:31,039 --> 00:57:33,559
of rule he might have about free will. What's your

1069
00:57:33,559 --> 00:57:37,880
response there? Okay? So what's where's the logical impossibility? What

1070
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:39,639
is God being restrained by?

1071
00:57:39,719 --> 00:57:42,559
Speaker 3: Then the claim that he would be able to do

1072
00:57:43,599 --> 00:57:46,639
so has none to be demonstrated. Do we agree?

1073
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:50,079
Speaker 1: Okay? Yes, And we also have not demonstrated that this

1074
00:57:50,239 --> 00:57:52,880
God is real either where at We don't know on

1075
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:53,960
both of those questions.

1076
00:57:54,119 --> 00:57:59,119
Speaker 3: Okay. So if your your claim is that maximally knowledgeable

1077
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:05,079
God cannot allow free will, then.

1078
00:58:06,679 --> 00:58:10,480
Speaker 1: No, no, no, your your claim that you're claim to

1079
00:58:10,519 --> 00:58:13,159
wrap up the shorthand of free will as we understand it,

1080
00:58:13,239 --> 00:58:16,079
Let's let's get this on the table. Is it goes

1081
00:58:16,119 --> 00:58:19,320
something along the lines as follows. God doesn't want evil

1082
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:22,320
in the world, but God values free will above all else,

1083
00:58:22,559 --> 00:58:26,119
and God knows it is impossible to give humans free

1084
00:58:26,199 --> 00:58:30,159
will and prevent them from committing evil. Okay, that's the

1085
00:58:30,199 --> 00:58:34,000
summary of it, right that that does a way that

1086
00:58:34,119 --> 00:58:36,599
ignores a whole bunch of problems with this is their

1087
00:58:36,639 --> 00:58:38,719
free will in heaven. What's your question there, Luke, Do

1088
00:58:38,719 --> 00:58:39,599
you have free will in heaven?

1089
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:41,159
Speaker 3: I don't know, okay?

1090
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:42,559
Speaker 1: Do you have free will on earth?

1091
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:42,960
Speaker 3: Yes?

1092
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:47,039
Speaker 1: Okay, so I don't know how you differentiate. So if

1093
00:58:47,079 --> 00:58:50,400
you don't have free will in heaven, then God values

1094
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:53,960
something more than free will. If you do have the

1095
00:58:54,519 --> 00:58:57,320
free will in heaven, and you also think that no

1096
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:01,000
evil exists in heaven, then there is a world God

1097
00:59:01,039 --> 00:59:03,360
can create where you have free will and there is

1098
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:06,039
no evil. So no matter how you cut it, and

1099
00:59:06,079 --> 00:59:08,280
again this is why I talk about the models of God.

1100
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:10,880
We have been presented with the model of God I've

1101
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:13,039
been presented with when it comes to this free will

1102
00:59:13,119 --> 00:59:17,000
argument is logically inconsistent with the concept of things like heaven.

1103
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:21,920
It's logically inconsistent with Another common argument is if I

1104
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:25,079
gave people free will and I exposed myself to them

1105
00:59:25,079 --> 00:59:27,440
to prove that I exist, they would not have free

1106
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:30,239
will because they could not help but worship me and believe,

1107
00:59:30,239 --> 00:59:32,800
and they'd be like robots. Well, the story of Satan

1108
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:35,599
and all of his followers that defected from heaven scenes

1109
00:59:35,639 --> 00:59:38,000
to disagree with that, et cetera, et cetera, eacheter, there's

1110
00:59:38,159 --> 00:59:41,039
mountains of problems with this whole free will thing. Do

1111
00:59:41,079 --> 00:59:43,679
you see the problems with the whole free will argument?

1112
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:45,840
Do you see the inconsistency.

1113
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:49,519
Speaker 3: So you to know each what would happen after we

1114
00:59:49,639 --> 00:59:51,519
die to no, I do I do not.

1115
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 2: No, I do not.

1116
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:55,800
Speaker 1: I'm taking this from the Catholic belief system that you

1117
00:59:55,880 --> 00:59:58,480
said you believe in that there is some sort of afterlife,

1118
00:59:58,519 --> 01:00:01,079
which you confirmed that. I assume you believe that there

1119
01:00:01,119 --> 01:00:03,000
is some sort of heaven. I think you affirmed that.

1120
01:00:03,519 --> 01:00:07,800
And the description I've always been given by all believers

1121
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:10,280
is that there is no evil in heaven. And some

1122
01:00:10,519 --> 01:00:12,679
waffle like you as to whether or not you have

1123
01:00:12,719 --> 01:00:15,000
free will in heaven. Do you disagree with any of that?

1124
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:16,960
Speaker 3: The last one I disagree with you.

1125
01:00:17,079 --> 01:00:20,360
Speaker 1: You waffled. You said you don't know whether there's free will?

1126
01:00:21,159 --> 01:00:22,920
Speaker 3: Oh? Sorry, what does waffle?

1127
01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:26,000
Speaker 1: To waffle? I'm sorry. To waffle means to be like undecided,

1128
01:00:26,079 --> 01:00:28,199
go back and forth. I'm not sure. Maybe yes, maybe no.

1129
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:32,599
That's waffling, sorry to be unsure of and maybe change

1130
01:00:32,599 --> 01:00:36,000
your mind frequently on so to Basically, they don't know

1131
01:00:36,039 --> 01:00:38,320
whether or not there's free will in heaven. Some say yes,

1132
01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:38,880
some say no.

1133
01:00:39,239 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 3: Yeah. So the reason why I don't know if there

1134
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:45,159
is free will in heaven is because the absence of time,

1135
01:00:45,679 --> 01:00:48,400
and for me, the for minds and in the free will,

1136
01:00:48,639 --> 01:00:50,559
time is necessary.

1137
01:00:50,199 --> 01:00:55,760
Speaker 1: So nothing. You don't think there's time in heaven. That's

1138
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:58,679
so nothing ever changes, It's just in a single state.

1139
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:03,880
Speaker 3: It's a belief of a contilious time is not There

1140
01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:07,280
is no time as we know it in heaven. Maybe

1141
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:11,400
there is a sequence of events, but no time.

1142
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:12,519
Speaker 2: Jim.

1143
01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:15,639
Speaker 1: That sounds like something like an excuse that a priest

1144
01:01:15,679 --> 01:01:18,760
would give somebody to get away from this question, doesn't it.

1145
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:24,800
Speaker 2: Oh, as a recovering Catholic, I have a problem with

1146
01:01:24,880 --> 01:01:28,760
what he's saying as a belief of Catholicism. And I'm

1147
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:32,719
double checking myself as we go, and I've read the

1148
01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:35,280
Catechism of the Catholic Church and that's not in there.

1149
01:01:35,519 --> 01:01:41,119
But that's not a surprise. So no, I'm not saying

1150
01:01:41,159 --> 01:01:44,360
I don't know where you get this idea from. I mean,

1151
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:49,000
God is outside of time, certainly, and we may experience

1152
01:01:49,119 --> 01:01:54,000
time differently. But yeah, if there is no time, we

1153
01:01:54,039 --> 01:01:56,199
don't know how. We don't even know what that means

1154
01:01:57,239 --> 01:02:01,639
in terms of science. Certainly timeless and spaceless would mean

1155
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:06,239
doesn't exist within this universe. So yeah, I don't know

1156
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:08,599
where you get that. As a Catholic, I hadn't heard it.

1157
01:02:08,639 --> 01:02:13,119
Speaker 1: But that's that's, you know, putting it back onto Luke. Okay,

1158
01:02:13,199 --> 01:02:15,440
so but you agree you don't know whether there's free

1159
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:15,960
will in heaven?

1160
01:02:16,239 --> 01:02:19,400
Speaker 3: So yeah, there reason? Okay, Just and why I say,

1161
01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:21,760
do you? Yeah? I get it.

1162
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:23,400
Speaker 1: I'm going to sort of skip over that. I think

1163
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:27,000
the concept of being outside of time is a nonsense

1164
01:02:27,039 --> 01:02:30,079
that we can't comprehend and as meaningless bs quite frankly

1165
01:02:30,079 --> 01:02:32,239
that people give to try to sort of wave away

1166
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:35,400
problems with their logic. But let's just at least ask this.

1167
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:38,519
There either is or is not free will in heaven.

1168
01:02:38,559 --> 01:02:41,519
Those are the only two possibilities. Free will exists or

1169
01:02:41,519 --> 01:02:44,519
it does not exist. Is that is that true?

1170
01:02:45,239 --> 01:02:49,039
Speaker 3: Hmm? Words up to you to convey the idea of

1171
01:02:49,079 --> 01:02:52,480
convectat free will doesn't exist in even't that would be

1172
01:02:52,519 --> 01:02:53,000
the answer?

1173
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:55,679
Speaker 2: So what God doesn't value free will?

1174
01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:58,360
Speaker 3: Free will? Right now? The idea of free will that

1175
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:01,559
I tried to convey is using time. Since there is

1176
01:03:01,599 --> 01:03:04,320
no time in heaven, then there is no frequent in

1177
01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:06,679
heaven the way we perceive it today.

1178
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:10,280
Speaker 1: And Heaven is going to be a forever concept, much

1179
01:03:10,519 --> 01:03:13,559
much bigger, longer, more than our time on earth.

1180
01:03:13,639 --> 01:03:19,519
Speaker 3: Right, however, implied the use of time again, it's a placeholder.

1181
01:03:19,119 --> 01:03:22,320
Speaker 1: Right, permanent, or whatever you want to say. But my

1182
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:25,239
point is the Bible tends to teach that the earth

1183
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:27,320
is sort of like a doormat that we wipe our

1184
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:29,639
feet on before we go to heaven. And heaven's the

1185
01:03:29,679 --> 01:03:32,119
important part that this is a test, or that this

1186
01:03:32,239 --> 01:03:37,840
is whatever. So if God doesn't value free will enough

1187
01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:40,800
to have it exist in heaven, why does he value

1188
01:03:40,840 --> 01:03:42,599
it so much here to the point that he thinks

1189
01:03:42,639 --> 01:03:45,239
that he should put it in even though it prevents

1190
01:03:45,280 --> 01:03:47,639
hims Logically somehow from preventing evil.

1191
01:03:48,159 --> 01:03:51,199
Speaker 3: The choice of God has to be free. That's why.

1192
01:03:51,480 --> 01:03:57,360
Speaker 1: Just restating the question, I'm asking why, why why does

1193
01:03:57,400 --> 01:04:01,199
God value it so much in here but not in heaven?

1194
01:04:01,480 --> 01:04:05,000
Like your continued choice in heaven should be free, right,

1195
01:04:05,199 --> 01:04:08,199
your continued participation. If you grow tired of heaven and

1196
01:04:08,239 --> 01:04:09,920
you want it to end, should you be able to

1197
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:11,519
end it tiring?

1198
01:04:11,719 --> 01:04:15,519
Speaker 3: Imply the use of time again? Okay, the trouble is

1199
01:04:15,559 --> 01:04:18,639
having here? We are having here? Is the way you

1200
01:04:18,679 --> 01:04:22,239
ask a question. Imply time in heaven? Right?

1201
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:25,039
Speaker 1: Yes? And as I said, I think a timelessness is

1202
01:04:25,079 --> 01:04:29,079
a nonsense comment. It's a nonsense concept. It doesn't make

1203
01:04:29,119 --> 01:04:31,760
any sense. If there is no time, then states of

1204
01:04:31,840 --> 01:04:35,360
things don't change. I don't perceive anything. God wouldn't perceive

1205
01:04:35,440 --> 01:04:39,800
anything if we are talking about time, right, change in

1206
01:04:40,159 --> 01:04:43,039
states over time from one frame to the next, something

1207
01:04:43,079 --> 01:04:46,679
has changed. If nothing ever changes, then there's actually no observation,

1208
01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:49,679
there's no emotions, there's no belief. Because you can't think

1209
01:04:49,719 --> 01:04:54,000
and be self referentials. It's meaningless to say God is

1210
01:04:54,039 --> 01:04:57,280
outside of time. You might as well say God is

1211
01:04:57,320 --> 01:04:59,360
true and false at the same time. It just doesn't

1212
01:04:59,360 --> 01:05:02,199
make any sense. Can't comprehend it. Does it make any

1213
01:05:02,199 --> 01:05:03,159
sense to you, Jim.

1214
01:05:03,119 --> 01:05:05,400
Speaker 2: No, I mean we've wondered kind of far off from

1215
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:08,800
the problem of evil that kind of disproves that God exists.

1216
01:05:09,039 --> 01:05:12,920
But yeah, to say that it's without time, I mean,

1217
01:05:12,960 --> 01:05:15,159
you're getting into it realm that we just have no

1218
01:05:15,199 --> 01:05:17,880
idea what the heck is going on with that concept.

1219
01:05:18,239 --> 01:05:20,800
We know that space and time came into existence at

1220
01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:23,679
the same time I was reading, or at the same moment.

1221
01:05:24,639 --> 01:05:27,679
We don't even know if words like before time make

1222
01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:32,599
any sense, because that before indicates that that time exists

1223
01:05:32,599 --> 01:05:35,719
of some kind. It just maybe that it is a

1224
01:05:36,039 --> 01:05:38,119
different way to experience time or a different way to

1225
01:05:38,199 --> 01:05:42,679
experience events. You're basically just spouting nonsense about heaven and

1226
01:05:42,719 --> 01:05:46,000
you're spouting nonsense about heaven that you can't prove. And

1227
01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:50,000
I don't care at that point, because you can't prove

1228
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:53,880
that heaven exists. You haven't proven your God exists. You

1229
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:56,760
haven't even given it. You know, nothing you said has

1230
01:05:56,760 --> 01:05:59,079
come with any kind of proof. And we've been talking

1231
01:05:59,119 --> 01:06:02,159
to you for almost minutes now, and.

1232
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:04,280
Speaker 1: Let's give it. Let's give them a chance. Shally, what

1233
01:06:04,519 --> 01:06:07,559
convinced you that not only a God exists? But it's

1234
01:06:07,599 --> 01:06:08,480
the Catholic version?

1235
01:06:08,719 --> 01:06:12,199
Speaker 3: Oh wow? The existence of God came with the prime

1236
01:06:12,280 --> 01:06:17,480
over arguments, but the Catholic Church interpretation of God came

1237
01:06:17,559 --> 01:06:22,480
with stories like bacon and the ability to have more

1238
01:06:22,559 --> 01:06:25,800
than one wife. And depending on each religion, they have

1239
01:06:25,920 --> 01:06:30,199
their own claim about what is good or bad and

1240
01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:35,280
their mistake they are if it's there's the mistaken about

1241
01:06:35,320 --> 01:06:36,400
their kam okay.

1242
01:06:36,559 --> 01:06:41,400
Speaker 1: So to summarize that into shorthand, you judged the different

1243
01:06:41,679 --> 01:06:44,840
laws and rules and claims, and you found that you

1244
01:06:44,960 --> 01:06:48,960
agree with the Catholic claims more than other religions. Is

1245
01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:50,440
that a fair summary?

1246
01:06:50,599 --> 01:06:51,559
Speaker 3: It's not a judge.

1247
01:06:51,639 --> 01:06:54,079
Speaker 1: It's an observation, an observation that led you at the

1248
01:06:54,079 --> 01:06:57,800
conclusion that something's right or wrong, which is judging something right.

1249
01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:01,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, you have criterias of good and bad things depending

1250
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:03,760
on this religion. Right.

1251
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:06,760
Speaker 1: We tell you you said you said bacon right, that

1252
01:07:06,760 --> 01:07:10,360
that people who are arguing over bacon. That's something that

1253
01:07:10,400 --> 01:07:12,719
convinced you the Catholic Church was right in some way.

1254
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:16,239
Speaker 3: For example. Yeah, bacon is one of those things where

1255
01:07:16,280 --> 01:07:19,199
they claim that if you eat bacon you will get sick.

1256
01:07:19,639 --> 01:07:22,039
Sickness is the consequence of bad.

1257
01:07:22,880 --> 01:07:25,639
Speaker 2: So, but you started with the prime mover and you're

1258
01:07:25,679 --> 01:07:27,960
at the Catholic God. How do you get from Well,

1259
01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:30,960
assume for the moment that the prime mover argument doesn't

1260
01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:33,920
have serious flaws in it. How do you get from

1261
01:07:33,960 --> 01:07:36,519
the prime mover to a Catholic to the Catholic version

1262
01:07:36,559 --> 01:07:37,840
of the Christian God?

1263
01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:40,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, so if you have a God, So that's a

1264
01:07:40,840 --> 01:07:42,119
continution from the prime mover.

1265
01:07:43,039 --> 01:07:44,800
Speaker 2: Oh no, you don't have a God. You have a

1266
01:07:44,800 --> 01:07:48,039
prime mover. You have a prime over. You're claiming it's God.

1267
01:07:48,079 --> 01:07:49,119
I want to know how you get there.

1268
01:07:49,320 --> 01:07:51,719
Speaker 1: It could be Bart Simpson in his lab creating a

1269
01:07:51,840 --> 01:07:53,920
universe out of a computer program. We don't know, but

1270
01:07:53,960 --> 01:07:54,800
it's a prime mover.

1271
01:07:56,199 --> 01:08:00,559
Speaker 3: Bart Simpsons has a beginning, you know what.

1272
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:03,280
Speaker 1: I'm saying, prime mover right, prime utiver for our local

1273
01:08:03,320 --> 01:08:04,519
presentation of the universe.

1274
01:08:04,599 --> 01:08:07,519
Speaker 3: Right for me, the end from my inderstnding from the

1275
01:08:07,519 --> 01:08:10,360
prime mover. He doesn't have a beginning like it's the

1276
01:08:10,559 --> 01:08:11,519
unmoved mover.

1277
01:08:11,719 --> 01:08:14,559
Speaker 2: Right without a problem, not a problem with that. How

1278
01:08:14,599 --> 01:08:16,560
do you get from prime mover to a god, to

1279
01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:19,000
the Catholic God in particular, or.

1280
01:08:18,920 --> 01:08:21,359
Speaker 1: To me an agent at all, to a thinking being?

1281
01:08:21,439 --> 01:08:24,119
That's that's what we're a point is is any question

1282
01:08:24,199 --> 01:08:27,840
about what is the cause of everything? The prime mover is,

1283
01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:30,439
We don't know. It's just an assertion that there was

1284
01:08:30,439 --> 01:08:33,399
an original cause. That's it. Not that it's an agent,

1285
01:08:33,640 --> 01:08:36,359
not that it's a god. It's just some cause. That's

1286
01:08:36,399 --> 01:08:38,439
the prime mover. You go from there all the way

1287
01:08:38,439 --> 01:08:41,600
to virgin birth right and heaven and all of these

1288
01:08:41,600 --> 01:08:43,359
other claims. How do you get there?

1289
01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:47,239
Speaker 3: All? Right? So you have many many steps that Greevy you.

1290
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:51,119
But one of those steps we talked about plus Bacon.

1291
01:08:51,359 --> 01:08:54,119
One of the another sets that you can use is

1292
01:08:54,199 --> 01:08:58,560
the arguments that uh this God has to interrect me

1293
01:08:58,640 --> 01:09:01,760
the word. To to have this kind of knowledge, you

1294
01:09:01,840 --> 01:09:02,399
need revolution.

1295
01:09:03,039 --> 01:09:05,600
Speaker 2: But these are all claims that you're making, but you're

1296
01:09:05,600 --> 01:09:07,920
not supporting any of your claims with either logical argument

1297
01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:10,279
or evidence, right, And that's what we're looking for, is

1298
01:09:10,279 --> 01:09:13,720
a logical argument. We're assuming that the prime mover arguement

1299
01:09:13,920 --> 01:09:17,199
is true, so we're giving you that as a starting point.

1300
01:09:17,439 --> 01:09:20,439
And then you said bacon somehow is a step on

1301
01:09:20,479 --> 01:09:20,800
the way.

1302
01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:22,319
Speaker 3: I don't.

1303
01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:25,239
Speaker 2: I don't see how bacon is on there. And then

1304
01:09:25,319 --> 01:09:28,520
that the God has to interact with the universe. Okay,

1305
01:09:29,039 --> 01:09:30,840
that would be the prime mover thing. So you just

1306
01:09:30,920 --> 01:09:34,199
restated the prime mover argument. You haven't said anything yet,

1307
01:09:34,319 --> 01:09:36,960
So how do you get from the prime mover to

1308
01:09:37,079 --> 01:09:38,039
the Catholic God?

1309
01:09:38,239 --> 01:09:41,439
Speaker 3: I understand. So what's what's happening right now is I

1310
01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:43,960
don't know what you consider evidence. That's the reason why

1311
01:09:43,960 --> 01:09:46,640
I called you the first time around when I asked

1312
01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:49,520
you what we donlean to you or how can you

1313
01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:53,640
be proven wrong? I was asking asking you what you

1314
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:57,920
consider good evidence or evidence for God. Since I love

1315
01:09:58,000 --> 01:09:59,920
that there is nothing that I can.

1316
01:09:59,800 --> 01:10:06,520
Speaker 1: Bring, I understand that our question is first what convinced you,

1317
01:10:06,920 --> 01:10:09,000
which I think you're trying to tell us. And then

1318
01:10:09,079 --> 01:10:12,960
two is, after we have a conversation and point out

1319
01:10:12,960 --> 01:10:16,119
potential flaws, do you still think that that's a good

1320
01:10:16,159 --> 01:10:19,279
reason to become convinced? Would you use the same logic

1321
01:10:19,479 --> 01:10:23,880
when picking which Wall Street investment firm to put your

1322
01:10:24,039 --> 01:10:27,319
life savings in? Would you do the same thing when

1323
01:10:27,359 --> 01:10:29,600
determining whether it's safe to go down We'll go down

1324
01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:31,520
a dark alley with somebody at a night like, are

1325
01:10:31,560 --> 01:10:35,600
you using the same methodology? And many times, if not

1326
01:10:35,760 --> 01:10:38,239
all times, when we have that conversation, I find that

1327
01:10:38,319 --> 01:10:41,239
people who are as thoughtful as you are tend to

1328
01:10:42,039 --> 01:10:45,239
use fuzzier logic and looser rules when they want to

1329
01:10:45,279 --> 01:10:47,159
believe in a god. I'm not saying you want to,

1330
01:10:47,199 --> 01:10:50,279
You've concluded that you are, But they don't apply the

1331
01:10:50,359 --> 01:10:54,000
same skepticism. They don't have the same demands for evidence

1332
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:56,560
and logic and reasoning that Jim's talking about that they

1333
01:10:56,600 --> 01:10:59,279
do in every other aspect in life where shit really matters.

1334
01:10:59,520 --> 01:11:01,319
Where do I put my money? Am I going to

1335
01:11:01,399 --> 01:11:04,079
be safe? How should I raise my children? Should I

1336
01:11:04,119 --> 01:11:06,880
get this vaccine or not? Right, there's lots of ways

1337
01:11:06,880 --> 01:11:09,760
that people make mistakes. How could you be mistaken in

1338
01:11:09,760 --> 01:11:11,800
your belief of God? And why should we believe you

1339
01:11:11,840 --> 01:11:13,520
when there's a whole bunch of people out here telling

1340
01:11:13,600 --> 01:11:16,920
us essentially the opposite is true, that we shouldn't believe

1341
01:11:16,920 --> 01:11:20,159
in the Catholic God. That's go ahead, Jim.

1342
01:11:20,199 --> 01:11:22,800
Speaker 2: Sorry, yeah, I say to answer your question, how you

1343
01:11:22,840 --> 01:11:26,560
know what is evidence? I just used the dictionary definition

1344
01:11:26,640 --> 01:11:29,039
for a whole lot of stuff, and the Dictionary definition

1345
01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:33,199
of evidence is the available the available body of facts

1346
01:11:33,279 --> 01:11:36,640
or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true

1347
01:11:36,720 --> 01:11:39,960
or valid. So what are the facts or information that

1348
01:11:40,159 --> 01:11:43,800
you use to go from a prime mover to the

1349
01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:45,720
Catholic God? What are the facts?

1350
01:11:45,920 --> 01:11:50,319
Speaker 3: All? Right? Jim? So when I said consider evidence, but

1351
01:11:50,439 --> 01:11:53,600
could you consider exverence? I am not asking in general evidence.

1352
01:11:53,840 --> 01:11:57,279
I'm just asking for the specific case of the Catholic God,

1353
01:11:57,399 --> 01:11:58,720
which is a little.

1354
01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:01,159
Speaker 2: But I was what I'm asking for, what are the

1355
01:12:01,199 --> 01:12:04,920
facts that the prime mover is the Catholic God?

1356
01:12:05,119 --> 01:12:08,119
Speaker 3: Like I said, there are many things that are between

1357
01:12:08,119 --> 01:12:09,039
those two steps.

1358
01:12:09,039 --> 01:12:11,119
Speaker 1: One of them, what's the biggest what's the biggest one.

1359
01:12:11,119 --> 01:12:12,640
We don't have a lot of time. I'm sorry, Luke,

1360
01:12:12,680 --> 01:12:16,119
but what's the biggest thing, the biggest reason you believe

1361
01:12:16,319 --> 01:12:18,640
in the Catholic God Number one. If you had to

1362
01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:20,600
say this is the prime one, Well.

1363
01:12:21,479 --> 01:12:24,680
Speaker 3: It's the amount of truth pain about the statement of

1364
01:12:24,680 --> 01:12:26,359
the world. That's the biggest reason why.

1365
01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:29,960
Speaker 1: Okay, so you know when the Catholic Church apologized for

1366
01:12:30,079 --> 01:12:35,239
prosecuting Galileo, it was the year the Hubble telescope was launched.

1367
01:12:35,479 --> 01:12:37,920
So I don't want to really go on into it,

1368
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:40,199
but I don't think you can be a member of

1369
01:12:40,199 --> 01:12:43,800
the Catholic Church and say that it the church itself

1370
01:12:43,880 --> 01:12:49,680
makes makes truth claims. Let's ignore the hiding and raping

1371
01:12:49,720 --> 01:12:51,520
of children and all that. And I know you're going

1372
01:12:51,600 --> 01:12:53,279
to say, those are people and all that stuff, but

1373
01:12:53,319 --> 01:12:57,319
those people are theoretically receiving truth better than anybody else

1374
01:12:57,359 --> 01:13:01,359
on the planet, and they're not. So Jim, we got

1375
01:13:01,359 --> 01:13:02,520
to move on to other callers. Do you have any

1376
01:13:02,600 --> 01:13:03,800
anything you wanted to wrap up with?

1377
01:13:04,119 --> 01:13:07,319
Speaker 2: No, I would really look at those those truth claims because,

1378
01:13:07,760 --> 01:13:11,359
like I said, I'm recovering Catholic and they fall apart

1379
01:13:11,479 --> 01:13:14,279
very very quickly when you go and you look at

1380
01:13:14,319 --> 01:13:16,880
history and you go look at things that actually happened.

1381
01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:20,800
The basic claim going back to the Bible is problematic.

1382
01:13:21,520 --> 01:13:24,239
The New Testament is problematic when you go and actually

1383
01:13:24,239 --> 01:13:27,039
study it. And I don't mean read it to study it.

1384
01:13:27,079 --> 01:13:29,640
I mean go and look at what was happening in

1385
01:13:29,720 --> 01:13:32,199
the at the time. Go look at all the things

1386
01:13:32,239 --> 01:13:36,960
that were influenced by it or that influenced it, and

1387
01:13:37,760 --> 01:13:40,199
just start with the basics. Can you prove it was Matthew, Mark,

1388
01:13:40,279 --> 01:13:43,000
Luke and John that wrote those gospels? Because you can't

1389
01:13:43,199 --> 01:13:47,319
can't know? Yeah, I would. I would start with something

1390
01:13:47,359 --> 01:13:49,279
as fundamental as that, and then go and try and

1391
01:13:49,319 --> 01:13:51,960
improve those things, and go really examine this because once

1392
01:13:51,960 --> 01:13:54,119
you do, you won't be a Catholic for much longer.

1393
01:13:54,239 --> 01:13:56,680
Speaker 1: I want to thank you Luke for your time. I

1394
01:13:56,720 --> 01:13:59,800
really did appreciate the caller. I think you're an excellent

1395
01:14:00,439 --> 01:14:03,960
conversation to participate with, and I'd love for you to

1396
01:14:03,960 --> 01:14:07,119
call back again, but we do have to move on.

1397
01:14:07,439 --> 01:14:10,960
So thank you very much for your time, and we

1398
01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:14,479
will hopefully hear from Luke again. As we ponder that,

1399
01:14:14,640 --> 01:14:16,479
I'm going to jump right into We've got more calls.

1400
01:14:16,520 --> 01:14:17,880
I want to jump in because we were sort of

1401
01:14:17,880 --> 01:14:21,920
slowed to start off at this. We have Robert in Minnesota.

1402
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:24,079
Why do we need a reason to believe in God?

1403
01:14:24,239 --> 01:14:28,439
Why isn't belief in and of itself sufficient? Robert, I'm

1404
01:14:28,439 --> 01:14:30,760
going to cut to the chase on this one. You say,

1405
01:14:30,800 --> 01:14:33,520
why isn't belief in and of itself sufficient? I assume

1406
01:14:33,560 --> 01:14:37,000
you mean why isn't belief in and of God? A God?

1407
01:14:37,199 --> 01:14:38,960
Sufficient sufficient for what?

1408
01:14:39,920 --> 01:14:42,359
Speaker 6: So sufficient for their own purposes.

1409
01:14:41,920 --> 01:14:44,359
Speaker 1: So sufficient for whose purposes? What purposes?

1410
01:14:44,880 --> 01:14:48,840
Speaker 6: For the believer's purposes. So, most individuals do not come

1411
01:14:48,880 --> 01:14:52,760
to face through rationality or reasoning, whether seistic or atheistic.

1412
01:14:52,880 --> 01:14:55,600
Most individuals are either raised a certain way, they have

1413
01:14:55,680 --> 01:14:58,399
an experience, and being raised or having an.

1414
01:14:58,359 --> 01:14:59,600
Speaker 3: Experience, is that been.

1415
01:14:59,520 --> 01:15:02,520
Speaker 4: A rash endeavor necessarily?

1416
01:15:02,680 --> 01:15:05,359
Speaker 1: So you agree with that, you're gym nodding as well,

1417
01:15:05,560 --> 01:15:05,920
you're an.

1418
01:15:05,920 --> 01:15:08,359
Speaker 6: Accept Yeah, so it sounds like you guys are in

1419
01:15:08,439 --> 01:15:10,920
agreement with that. But maybe you guys are an exception

1420
01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:15,279
to that. But what I don't understand is the necessity

1421
01:15:15,479 --> 01:15:20,359
of insisting other people have a rational backbone to their beliefs.

1422
01:15:20,399 --> 01:15:23,920
Speaker 2: It's really really easy. So, yeah, that's an easy thing

1423
01:15:23,960 --> 01:15:28,239
to question. First of all, religion brings up tribalism. Second,

1424
01:15:28,560 --> 01:15:30,600
look at what's happened in the United States right now,

1425
01:15:30,640 --> 01:15:34,239
and realize that this everything that's happening is an extension

1426
01:15:34,600 --> 01:15:37,399
of a belief in God and a belief in the

1427
01:15:37,439 --> 01:15:40,920
Bible and starts from there and gets worse, right, And

1428
01:15:41,399 --> 01:15:46,079
that's a problem for everything. And the tribalism involved is

1429
01:15:46,640 --> 01:15:50,000
a problem. So I just I don't trying to We

1430
01:15:50,000 --> 01:15:52,319
should believe it as many true things as possible and

1431
01:15:52,359 --> 01:15:55,720
as few false things as possible, because otherwise we just

1432
01:15:55,880 --> 01:15:58,720
can't make good decisions. Does that make sense?

1433
01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:01,920
Speaker 6: So I mean that that last part certainly makes sense,

1434
01:16:02,159 --> 01:16:04,319
but that's more of an individual choice.

1435
01:16:05,159 --> 01:16:07,880
Speaker 1: What what what are we talking about if not individual choices?

1436
01:16:08,079 --> 01:16:10,960
Speaker 6: Well exactly, Well, I mean individual choices regards to an

1437
01:16:11,000 --> 01:16:14,920
individuals believe. So I can't tell somebody to stop believing something.

1438
01:16:15,399 --> 01:16:17,239
It's just first of all, it's never going to work.

1439
01:16:17,720 --> 01:16:20,319
And second of all, individuals have their own agency and

1440
01:16:20,319 --> 01:16:21,439
they ought to have the right to.

1441
01:16:21,399 --> 01:16:24,239
Speaker 1: Their where Nobody, nobody, to be clear, nobody on this

1442
01:16:24,319 --> 01:16:26,560
show is proposing anything other than what you just said.

1443
01:16:26,760 --> 01:16:28,600
Speaker 2: Okay, well, that's wonderful to hear.

1444
01:16:29,319 --> 01:16:31,560
Speaker 6: And individuals who are really just do call into the

1445
01:16:31,600 --> 01:16:34,760
show to defend their positions for what they believe is rational.

1446
01:16:35,399 --> 01:16:38,359
So I'm not saying you're reaching out to individuals to

1447
01:16:38,439 --> 01:16:40,319
harass them. I'm not trying to apply that at all.

1448
01:16:40,439 --> 01:16:41,439
Speaker 2: But I do want to go back.

1449
01:16:42,399 --> 01:16:43,439
Speaker 6: I'm sorry, I'm not similar.

1450
01:16:43,520 --> 01:16:45,399
Speaker 2: Would you Why would you even say that? That makes

1451
01:16:46,279 --> 01:16:46,560
I think?

1452
01:16:46,640 --> 01:16:50,159
Speaker 1: I think. I think he's defending his previous He's just

1453
01:16:50,159 --> 01:16:54,720
clarifying his previous statement, agency and all of that sort

1454
01:16:54,720 --> 01:16:56,319
of stuff. But I do before you move on, I

1455
01:16:56,319 --> 01:17:00,159
do have a question to drive this home. Right, you

1456
01:17:00,239 --> 01:17:04,000
characterize this as an individual decision. Are you aware that

1457
01:17:04,439 --> 01:17:06,960
Idaha has a law that says if you kill your

1458
01:17:07,039 --> 01:17:10,680
kid because of your faith, it is not manslaughter or murder.

1459
01:17:11,000 --> 01:17:12,039
You are completely innocent.

1460
01:17:12,760 --> 01:17:13,640
Speaker 2: I have heard that.

1461
01:17:13,680 --> 01:17:15,199
Speaker 6: I'm not being able to verify it, but I have

1462
01:17:15,239 --> 01:17:15,760
heard it yet.

1463
01:17:16,000 --> 01:17:19,880
Speaker 1: Okay, go look at the documentary No Greater Law. Go

1464
01:17:19,920 --> 01:17:25,159
look up, just google it. Idaho faith Healing Deaths. There

1465
01:17:25,199 --> 01:17:28,760
is a graveyard in Canyon County, Ohio. Excuse me, Idaho

1466
01:17:29,159 --> 01:17:31,920
with well over six hundred graves in the mass, majority

1467
01:17:31,960 --> 01:17:34,439
of which are children. This is because of a long

1468
01:17:34,520 --> 01:17:37,239
history I won't get into here that started with Christian

1469
01:17:37,279 --> 01:17:41,560
scientists in the Nixon administration working in faith healing exemptions

1470
01:17:41,600 --> 01:17:46,000
into Walter Mondil's Child Abuse Protection Act back in the seventies,

1471
01:17:46,640 --> 01:17:49,319
that Idaho still hasn't done away with that loophole. Do

1472
01:17:49,359 --> 01:17:51,319
you know why they haven't done away with that loophole?

1473
01:17:51,359 --> 01:17:53,760
And it's the last state to do away with that loophole.

1474
01:17:53,920 --> 01:17:57,000
Speaker 6: So I understand that this is a religious background, but

1475
01:17:57,039 --> 01:17:58,640
that's not what I'm talking about at all.

1476
01:17:58,880 --> 01:18:00,399
Speaker 1: This is what I'm talking about. So I'm going to

1477
01:18:00,439 --> 01:18:04,079
explain it to our listeners. The reason that the law

1478
01:18:04,279 --> 01:18:08,319
in Idaho says if you fail to give even the

1479
01:18:08,359 --> 01:18:11,239
smallest bit of medical care to your child and that

1480
01:18:11,319 --> 01:18:14,800
results in the child's death, that would otherwise without this law,

1481
01:18:14,840 --> 01:18:18,079
be considered at least manslaughter, if not murder. The reason

1482
01:18:18,119 --> 01:18:21,000
that law says that you are not guilty is because

1483
01:18:21,600 --> 01:18:24,680
not because of the followers of christ Church, which are

1484
01:18:24,680 --> 01:18:27,479
the cultists who are killing their kids in Ohio, say

1485
01:18:27,479 --> 01:18:30,800
the law should be that way. But every other Christian

1486
01:18:30,920 --> 01:18:35,279
legislator in Idaho is unwilling to do away with that

1487
01:18:35,439 --> 01:18:38,640
law because every time it comes out of committee into

1488
01:18:38,680 --> 01:18:42,399
their unicameral body to be voted on, because the committee

1489
01:18:42,439 --> 01:18:44,199
will say, Okay, yeah, we need to get to the floor.

1490
01:18:44,239 --> 01:18:46,520
We need to do away with this loophole. Every year

1491
01:18:46,880 --> 01:18:49,760
they vote it down, and when interviewed they say, these

1492
01:18:49,800 --> 01:18:52,119
are fellow Christians. I'm not going to tell people what

1493
01:18:52,159 --> 01:18:54,960
their beliefs should be. So I really do not want

1494
01:18:55,039 --> 01:18:59,720
to exaggerate or think make you think I'm exaggerating. Why

1495
01:18:59,760 --> 01:19:03,039
this is not just an individual decision. And when you

1496
01:19:03,079 --> 01:19:05,640
ask why we need a reason to believe in God,

1497
01:19:05,760 --> 01:19:08,680
my answer is because they're killing fucking kids in Ohio, Idaho.

1498
01:19:08,680 --> 01:19:10,920
Excuse me, Okay, So does that make sense?

1499
01:19:11,079 --> 01:19:14,560
Speaker 6: You're okay, what you're saying. That line of logic makes sense,

1500
01:19:14,560 --> 01:19:17,119
but it has it's completely misrepresenting what I said or

1501
01:19:17,439 --> 01:19:18,920
nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

1502
01:19:19,000 --> 01:19:21,479
Speaker 1: So I want you to take your question. Your question

1503
01:19:21,800 --> 01:19:24,199
was why do we need a reason to believe in God?

1504
01:19:24,600 --> 01:19:27,960
Isn't belief in and of itself sufficient? The reason you

1505
01:19:28,039 --> 01:19:30,079
need to have a belief in God is exactly what

1506
01:19:30,159 --> 01:19:32,520
Jim said. It's the same reason you need to have

1507
01:19:32,600 --> 01:19:35,560
a firm methodology for whether or not there's a car

1508
01:19:35,600 --> 01:19:37,720
coming when you cross the street, or whether there's a

1509
01:19:37,760 --> 01:19:39,920
fucking tiger in the tall grass when you decide to

1510
01:19:39,920 --> 01:19:42,159
go into the tall grass, Because if you act on

1511
01:19:42,359 --> 01:19:45,000
erroneous information, you can hurt yourselves and those you love.

1512
01:19:45,399 --> 01:19:48,079
That's why you need a reason to believe in anything,

1513
01:19:48,600 --> 01:19:51,560
much less something as important as these claims about God.

1514
01:19:52,319 --> 01:19:53,000
That makes sense.

1515
01:19:53,119 --> 01:19:56,279
Speaker 6: You're extrap What you're doing is you're extrapolating things.

1516
01:19:56,279 --> 01:19:58,640
Speaker 1: Does it make sense? Do you agree with me?

1517
01:19:58,880 --> 01:19:58,920
Speaker 3: No?

1518
01:19:59,079 --> 01:20:01,479
Speaker 1: It really you do not agree with me?

1519
01:20:01,840 --> 01:20:02,880
Speaker 3: It independent you.

1520
01:20:02,960 --> 01:20:03,079
Speaker 7: No.

1521
01:20:03,199 --> 01:20:05,600
Speaker 6: I didn't say that. You've got to let me talk them.

1522
01:20:05,600 --> 01:20:08,960
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm asking you questions. I'm cross examining you to

1523
01:20:08,960 --> 01:20:11,239
get to a point and then you can talk. Do

1524
01:20:11,319 --> 01:20:14,279
you agree well that we should believe as many true

1525
01:20:14,319 --> 01:20:16,880
things in this few false things, or lest we risk

1526
01:20:17,079 --> 01:20:22,039
doing very great harm to ourselves or those we love. Ideally, yes, okay,

1527
01:20:22,159 --> 01:20:23,520
go ahead, Okay, So.

1528
01:20:23,760 --> 01:20:26,439
Speaker 6: Again I am not talking about individuals who are acting

1529
01:20:26,479 --> 01:20:30,319
out their belief onto other people. There are plenty of Christians, Muslims.

1530
01:20:30,319 --> 01:20:32,319
And let me finish. I heard you take a breath.

1531
01:20:32,479 --> 01:20:33,119
Speaker 3: Let me finish.

1532
01:20:33,520 --> 01:20:35,479
Speaker 1: I am hey, hey, hey, hey, let me make something

1533
01:20:35,479 --> 01:20:38,680
clear here. I'm gonna mute you for a second. We

1534
01:20:38,760 --> 01:20:40,720
will talk when we want to talk. I was not

1535
01:20:40,800 --> 01:20:42,640
about to talk. I actually took a drink, is what

1536
01:20:42,680 --> 01:20:44,840
you heard? So you need to hold on and figure

1537
01:20:44,840 --> 01:20:47,119
out whose show is whose. We would love to hear

1538
01:20:47,159 --> 01:20:50,119
from you. But when somebody calls in with something to saying,

1539
01:20:50,159 --> 01:20:52,119
why do we need? Why do we care? Why do

1540
01:20:52,199 --> 01:20:54,079
we need a reason to believe in God? And I

1541
01:20:54,239 --> 01:20:56,760
see what is happening in this world, I find it

1542
01:20:56,880 --> 01:20:59,199
kind of ridiculous. So that is why I wanted to

1543
01:20:59,239 --> 01:21:00,880
get to that point. And then I wanted to let

1544
01:21:00,880 --> 01:21:02,920
you talk, all right, and I'm going to let you talk,

1545
01:21:02,960 --> 01:21:04,960
and then I'm sure Jim will have some questions for you.

1546
01:21:05,199 --> 01:21:07,720
But please stop with the tone about you telling me

1547
01:21:07,880 --> 01:21:11,279
when you can and cannot talk. Now, please continue and

1548
01:21:11,359 --> 01:21:13,880
tell me what your actual question is.

1549
01:21:14,159 --> 01:21:18,000
Speaker 6: So I just want to clarify. Okay, again, I was

1550
01:21:18,039 --> 01:21:20,039
interrupted a lot before. That's why I was a little

1551
01:21:20,079 --> 01:21:21,279
on edge about being Stop.

1552
01:21:21,319 --> 01:21:23,760
Speaker 1: What's the whining about eating interrupting it? Get to your point,

1553
01:21:24,000 --> 01:21:25,600
I'm I'm explaining.

1554
01:21:25,640 --> 01:21:27,600
Speaker 6: You just talked to the guy for forty five minutes. Okay,

1555
01:21:27,680 --> 01:21:29,840
So what I'm saying, well, that's.

1556
01:21:29,720 --> 01:21:32,520
Speaker 1: A chance, get to your point. Stop with the preambles.

1557
01:21:32,560 --> 01:21:33,119
Speaker 3: Okay.

1558
01:21:33,840 --> 01:21:37,680
Speaker 6: Individuals have their beliefs, correct. Individuals act out on their

1559
01:21:37,680 --> 01:21:41,159
beliefs correct. Some individuals force their beliefs on other Some

1560
01:21:41,279 --> 01:21:44,880
individuals force their beliefs on other people, and at times,

1561
01:21:44,920 --> 01:21:48,960
such as things like democracy or equality or egalitarianism, I

1562
01:21:48,960 --> 01:21:51,520
am one hundred percent in favor of acting that out

1563
01:21:51,680 --> 01:21:54,920
by force if necessary. Okay, if somebody wants to come

1564
01:21:54,960 --> 01:21:59,239
into the United States and install a Sharia lague dictatorship,

1565
01:21:59,279 --> 01:22:01,560
I am one hundred percent in favor of by force

1566
01:22:01,640 --> 01:22:04,640
removing that. Okay, the same why.

1567
01:22:04,119 --> 01:22:06,279
Speaker 1: Why why are you? Why are you in favor of

1568
01:22:06,319 --> 01:22:07,000
opposing that?

1569
01:22:07,079 --> 01:22:09,479
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if he's getting to a point, but yeah,

1570
01:22:09,560 --> 01:22:09,880
he is.

1571
01:22:09,960 --> 01:22:12,039
Speaker 1: But I want to understand why you're I have a

1572
01:22:12,039 --> 01:22:16,319
point here. Why are you opposed to a Sharia law dictatorship.

1573
01:22:15,720 --> 01:22:17,159
Speaker 6: Because it opposes my interests?

1574
01:22:17,960 --> 01:22:20,239
Speaker 1: How do you know that? So the underlying question is

1575
01:22:20,319 --> 01:22:23,520
what if they're right? What if that's God what God wants?

1576
01:22:24,199 --> 01:22:24,880
Speaker 2: Then I don't care.

1577
01:22:26,159 --> 01:22:26,800
Speaker 1: That's a good answer.

1578
01:22:26,840 --> 01:22:28,800
Speaker 3: I appreciate that.

1579
01:22:28,920 --> 01:22:31,159
Speaker 2: What's the difference between Sharia law and Leviticus?

1580
01:22:31,479 --> 01:22:32,399
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, what's the.

1581
01:22:32,399 --> 01:22:34,560
Speaker 2: Difference between Sharia law and Leviticus?

1582
01:22:34,960 --> 01:22:38,600
Speaker 6: Academically they're quite different. In practice they would probably function

1583
01:22:38,720 --> 01:22:39,319
someone similar.

1584
01:22:39,920 --> 01:22:42,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, so be a little bit more lenient, believe

1585
01:22:42,800 --> 01:22:43,159
it or not.

1586
01:22:43,439 --> 01:22:48,199
Speaker 1: So What's so you agree that people our beliefs inform

1587
01:22:48,239 --> 01:22:52,439
our actions, and those the beliefs can bad beliefs can

1588
01:22:52,680 --> 01:22:57,279
inform bad actions. So maybe I'm I don't understand where

1589
01:22:57,319 --> 01:23:00,840
we disagree. Do you not then conclude that it is

1590
01:23:00,880 --> 01:23:04,439
in our societal best interests that as many members believe

1591
01:23:04,439 --> 01:23:06,560
as many true things and as few false things lest

1592
01:23:06,880 --> 01:23:09,600
they blow themselves up or drive them fly their planes

1593
01:23:09,600 --> 01:23:12,439
into buildings, or start wars in them at least, or

1594
01:23:12,520 --> 01:23:14,800
kill their kids in Idaho? Isn't that not something we

1595
01:23:14,840 --> 01:23:16,359
should say is a moral good?

1596
01:23:16,720 --> 01:23:20,039
Speaker 6: Nothing I ever said disagree with that or contradict to them.

1597
01:23:20,199 --> 01:23:22,960
Speaker 1: Your question is why do we need a belief a

1598
01:23:23,000 --> 01:23:25,720
reason to believe in God? The reason you need a

1599
01:23:25,800 --> 01:23:29,720
believe a reason is to make sure your logic is

1600
01:23:29,760 --> 01:23:33,159
not defective, to make sure you're not hearing voices, to

1601
01:23:33,199 --> 01:23:35,520
make sure that you are right. If you have no

1602
01:23:35,680 --> 01:23:37,880
reason to believe in a god, and you believe without reason,

1603
01:23:38,159 --> 01:23:41,039
then the random god you choose believing in may tell

1604
01:23:41,079 --> 01:23:43,439
you to go blow yourself up, and that's bad. So

1605
01:23:43,720 --> 01:23:45,119
at least have a fucking reason.

1606
01:23:45,439 --> 01:23:48,119
Speaker 6: Okay, So I agree, if you're going to do something

1607
01:23:48,199 --> 01:23:50,359
vast you should probably have a reason for it. But

1608
01:23:50,479 --> 01:23:53,920
what I'm talking about is not necessarily acting on a

1609
01:23:53,960 --> 01:23:59,079
fundamentalist idea of religions from Leviticus or from somebody's interpretation

1610
01:23:59,119 --> 01:24:01,880
of Shuria, which is incredibly diverse, some of which is

1611
01:24:01,880 --> 01:24:06,319
more palatable than others. However, what I am talking about is,

1612
01:24:06,600 --> 01:24:08,720
let's say an individual is a deist.

1613
01:24:09,000 --> 01:24:11,119
Speaker 3: Okay, they're an individual who believes in a God.

1614
01:24:11,159 --> 01:24:13,720
Speaker 6: But this God doesn't this God doesn't interact with the world.

1615
01:24:13,760 --> 01:24:14,039
Speaker 3: Okay.

1616
01:24:14,520 --> 01:24:17,319
Speaker 6: I might have created the universe, might just have existed

1617
01:24:17,359 --> 01:24:19,039
with the universe, might be a function of the unie

1618
01:24:19,119 --> 01:24:19,720
is we don't really know.

1619
01:24:19,840 --> 01:24:20,159
Speaker 3: Okay.

1620
01:24:20,239 --> 01:24:22,880
Speaker 6: There are plenty of Christians, first of all, that pretty

1621
01:24:22,920 --> 01:24:25,720
much live out this idea of God. So they might

1622
01:24:25,760 --> 01:24:28,199
go to church occasionally they'll say they believe in God,

1623
01:24:28,279 --> 01:24:30,359
they'll say they believe Jesus Christ died for theirs. And

1624
01:24:30,520 --> 01:24:33,159
there's plenty of Muslims that will pray five times a

1625
01:24:33,239 --> 01:24:34,920
day that we're trained from pork and all of these.

1626
01:24:35,000 --> 01:24:37,760
Speaker 2: So just just to cut you off all this long

1627
01:24:38,039 --> 01:24:39,840
just cuts you off in this long list of stuff

1628
01:24:40,199 --> 01:24:43,319
that I don't think really does anything. What you're saying

1629
01:24:43,399 --> 01:24:46,199
is that it is sometimes okay to believe in things

1630
01:24:46,239 --> 01:24:48,680
without evidence. That's what it sounds like to me. You're saying,

1631
01:24:48,680 --> 01:24:48,960
I think.

1632
01:24:49,079 --> 01:24:52,439
Speaker 6: I don't think anybody disagrees with that. I mean, I

1633
01:24:52,520 --> 01:24:53,439
do really wrong.

1634
01:24:53,560 --> 01:24:54,880
Speaker 2: I do believing I do.

1635
01:24:55,079 --> 01:24:55,319
Speaker 3: I do.

1636
01:24:55,479 --> 01:24:58,319
Speaker 2: I believe that believing in things without good evidence leads

1637
01:24:58,359 --> 01:25:01,680
to bad constant believes to bad actions. Actions have consequences.

1638
01:25:01,840 --> 01:25:04,560
Bad actions mostly have bad consequences.

1639
01:25:04,880 --> 01:25:08,720
Speaker 1: And I'll add to the word. I'll modify it by

1640
01:25:08,720 --> 01:25:12,039
saying sufficient evidence rather than good or bad, because that's

1641
01:25:12,119 --> 01:25:15,000
very binary. It's just shorthand that people use. But sufficient

1642
01:25:15,119 --> 01:25:19,039
sort of means you need to allocate your skepticism or

1643
01:25:19,079 --> 01:25:21,359
your demand for evidence to the claim being made in

1644
01:25:21,399 --> 01:25:24,279
the potential consequences. If you tell me you had a

1645
01:25:24,279 --> 01:25:27,199
tuna fish sandwich for lunch, I'll probably believe you because

1646
01:25:27,760 --> 01:25:29,960
I know what tuna is. I know that people make sandwiches.

1647
01:25:30,000 --> 01:25:31,920
I know that what lunches, and I know that people

1648
01:25:32,079 --> 01:25:35,520
eat tuna fish sandwiches at lunch, and the potential consequences

1649
01:25:35,520 --> 01:25:38,119
for meat accepting that is true is very low. If

1650
01:25:38,159 --> 01:25:40,199
you tell me that you had a tuna fish sandwich

1651
01:25:40,199 --> 01:25:42,720
for lunch while you're on a flying saucer talking to God,

1652
01:25:42,960 --> 01:25:47,000
we're gonna have a different conversation. So if your whole

1653
01:25:47,039 --> 01:25:48,960
reason to get to summarize Gym's point, if your whole

1654
01:25:49,000 --> 01:25:51,640
reason to call us is to say, if your beliefs

1655
01:25:51,680 --> 01:25:54,640
won't affect anybody in society, then who cares whether or

1656
01:25:54,640 --> 01:25:57,359
not you've got good reason to believe them. I probably agree.

1657
01:25:57,119 --> 01:25:59,960
Speaker 6: With you, Okay, So what I was saying is individ

1658
01:26:00,520 --> 01:26:02,600
And again I agree with pretty much everything you just

1659
01:26:02,640 --> 01:26:03,000
said there.

1660
01:26:03,079 --> 01:26:03,399
Speaker 3: Okay.

1661
01:26:03,600 --> 01:26:04,800
Speaker 2: Now I believe.

1662
01:26:04,520 --> 01:26:07,920
Speaker 6: Things without evidence. So I believe, for example, that the

1663
01:26:07,960 --> 01:26:11,439
Mona Lisa is beautiful. There's no evidence for that.

1664
01:26:11,640 --> 01:26:14,199
Speaker 1: Yes, you do have evidence for that. That's kind of boring,

1665
01:26:14,279 --> 01:26:15,640
quite frankly.

1666
01:26:15,760 --> 01:26:23,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, that really, I mean a philosophy dedicated to uh, beauty,

1667
01:26:23,680 --> 01:26:26,720
questions of beauty and esoteric things like that. Right, you

1668
01:26:26,840 --> 01:26:27,159
got that.

1669
01:26:27,239 --> 01:26:29,439
Speaker 6: You you have to There is no such thing as

1670
01:26:29,520 --> 01:26:32,760
beauty necessarily correct like outside it.

1671
01:26:33,039 --> 01:26:35,399
Speaker 1: You were trying to to to limit us into one

1672
01:26:35,439 --> 01:26:38,479
definition of beauty. If we're saying beauty is a subjective

1673
01:26:38,560 --> 01:26:43,319
opinion about something, then beauty exists. The concept of beauty exists.

1674
01:26:43,159 --> 01:26:45,800
It's the same people who say you have no evidence

1675
01:26:45,840 --> 01:26:49,279
of love. Yes I do. I've experienced the sensation I

1676
01:26:49,920 --> 01:26:53,159
feel love, I am loved, I love other people. Just

1677
01:26:53,199 --> 01:26:55,359
because it's a concept, it doesn't mean you can't have

1678
01:26:55,479 --> 01:26:58,880
evidence for it. And your sensations that you associate with

1679
01:26:59,039 --> 01:27:01,439
things that you find pleasing because of the way they

1680
01:27:01,520 --> 01:27:05,319
appear or sound or whatever, that's evidence that it is

1681
01:27:05,359 --> 01:27:09,920
beautiful within the common definition of beauty. So try something

1682
01:27:10,000 --> 01:27:12,319
else other than that, right, Okay?

1683
01:27:12,640 --> 01:27:14,760
Speaker 6: Is that is no different than somebody saying I have

1684
01:27:14,800 --> 01:27:17,479
an spiritual experience because of how it makes me feel.

1685
01:27:17,560 --> 01:27:21,680
Speaker 1: Okay, I agree, Well, we don't disagree on that. People

1686
01:27:21,720 --> 01:27:24,319
will use spiritual to mean that. I think when you

1687
01:27:24,399 --> 01:27:27,800
ask them what spiritual means, they get very, very very

1688
01:27:27,800 --> 01:27:30,079
different answers from a lot of people around the world.

1689
01:27:30,640 --> 01:27:34,079
But people will definitely go into a concert and have

1690
01:27:34,159 --> 01:27:37,680
feelings and say I had a spiritual spiritual experience. But

1691
01:27:37,760 --> 01:27:40,960
you know what, unless that spiritual experience leads them to

1692
01:27:41,000 --> 01:27:42,880
believe that they need to kill their kids or blow

1693
01:27:42,960 --> 01:27:45,279
up buildings or not take vaccines, I don't really give

1694
01:27:45,279 --> 01:27:47,439
a shit. I have great feelings too when I go

1695
01:27:47,520 --> 01:27:50,000
to concerts or hear good poetry or watch some of

1696
01:27:50,000 --> 01:27:53,600
the best movies I've ever seen. I don't call them spiritual,

1697
01:27:53,640 --> 01:27:56,359
but they are. I'm emotional, they're meaningful to me. They

1698
01:27:56,840 --> 01:27:59,119
make me want to keep living because it's pleasure in

1699
01:27:59,159 --> 01:28:01,479
my life. So what's what's your what's your overall point?

1700
01:28:01,520 --> 01:28:02,800
What argument are you trying to make?

1701
01:28:03,039 --> 01:28:05,319
Speaker 6: So if you if you would step back and listen

1702
01:28:05,319 --> 01:28:06,800
to what I'm saying, I think you would understand it

1703
01:28:06,880 --> 01:28:07,560
a little bit better.

1704
01:28:07,640 --> 01:28:10,920
Speaker 1: Okay, that's the last warning. That's a pontificating dude. Just

1705
01:28:11,000 --> 01:28:12,760
tell us what is the argument you're trying to make.

1706
01:28:12,840 --> 01:28:14,039
Speaker 6: I'm not pontificating.

1707
01:28:14,199 --> 01:28:17,439
Speaker 2: You are not. Okay, it sure sounds like we're interrupting.

1708
01:28:18,520 --> 01:28:20,000
Speaker 6: No, you are not.

1709
01:28:20,039 --> 01:28:21,560
Speaker 1: All right, I'm going to interrupt him one more time.

1710
01:28:21,600 --> 01:28:24,840
Speaker 2: Bye, bye, interruption.

1711
01:28:27,960 --> 01:28:29,359
Speaker 1: We've gotten to a point where we were having a

1712
01:28:29,359 --> 01:28:31,560
conversation and he got pissed off again, So go ahead.

1713
01:28:31,920 --> 01:28:33,960
Speaker 2: I don't know what we just spent what last fifteen

1714
01:28:33,960 --> 01:28:38,399
minutes talking about. Honestly, he either agrees with this mostly

1715
01:28:38,479 --> 01:28:40,760
except for something that he couldn't articulate, and I don't

1716
01:28:40,760 --> 01:28:41,319
know what it was.

1717
01:28:41,520 --> 01:28:45,479
Speaker 1: Right, So yeah, I'm kind of a rubber his throad

1718
01:28:45,560 --> 01:28:48,319
kind of guy. Like if you want to sit around

1719
01:28:48,319 --> 01:28:51,720
in navel gaze about things that don't matter, more power

1720
01:28:51,800 --> 01:28:55,560
to you. But most beliefs I've can catalog in my

1721
01:28:55,720 --> 01:28:58,840
head inform some actions that could result in good or

1722
01:28:58,840 --> 01:29:01,279
bad decisions. Right, I have a belief that I like

1723
01:29:01,359 --> 01:29:04,640
doctor Pepper. I also drink too much of it. That's

1724
01:29:04,640 --> 01:29:08,239
what I've got a belly that's bad for me. Now,

1725
01:29:08,399 --> 01:29:11,000
I believe all of those things, but I also believe

1726
01:29:11,239 --> 01:29:14,399
that I'm gonna somehow start exercising later. And if that

1727
01:29:14,439 --> 01:29:17,199
believes false, I've got a real problem. So I need

1728
01:29:17,239 --> 01:29:19,840
to start exercising more. It could be very, very small

1729
01:29:19,840 --> 01:29:23,800
stuff like that, but it affects us, and I don't

1730
01:29:23,800 --> 01:29:25,680
know how you can look at the world and listen

1731
01:29:25,720 --> 01:29:27,479
to the stuff that you and I were rattling off

1732
01:29:27,520 --> 01:29:31,600
and say, oh, but let's talk about meaningless personal beliefs

1733
01:29:31,640 --> 01:29:34,840
as if we disagree with you. I still don't know

1734
01:29:34,880 --> 01:29:35,520
what his point was.

1735
01:29:35,640 --> 01:29:38,039
Speaker 2: No, I have no idea. Okay, so let's let's go

1736
01:29:38,079 --> 01:29:39,520
to a caller that we might actually be able to

1737
01:29:39,560 --> 01:29:40,359
figure out what the point.

1738
01:29:40,760 --> 01:29:43,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's do that. We've got Watcher two one five

1739
01:29:43,359 --> 01:29:47,479
in Pennsylvania. The record of Jesus convinces me and God,

1740
01:29:49,000 --> 01:29:52,439
So uh, let's talk. Let's say, Watcher two one five.

1741
01:29:52,439 --> 01:29:54,880
I'm just gonna call you a watcher or watch for short?

1742
01:29:55,439 --> 01:29:57,000
What record are you talking about?

1743
01:29:57,159 --> 01:29:59,520
Speaker 3: The Bible Gospels? With gospels?

1744
01:29:59,560 --> 01:30:03,359
Speaker 1: And okay, so what about the Gospels Testament?

1745
01:30:03,520 --> 01:30:03,720
Speaker 8: Yeah?

1746
01:30:04,239 --> 01:30:07,319
Speaker 1: What about the New Testament? Gospels? Mark, Matthew, Mark, Luke,

1747
01:30:07,319 --> 01:30:10,439
and John convinces you? You say, in God, I assume

1748
01:30:10,439 --> 01:30:12,680
you mean that the Christian the claims about the Christian

1749
01:30:12,720 --> 01:30:14,159
God are true. That's what you mean?

1750
01:30:14,399 --> 01:30:14,960
Speaker 3: Yes, okay?

1751
01:30:15,000 --> 01:30:18,000
Speaker 1: So what about the gospels? Convince you that God is

1752
01:30:18,039 --> 01:30:19,800
that that God is true or is real?

1753
01:30:20,159 --> 01:30:23,199
Speaker 8: Very simply, it's just the testimony of Christ, what he

1754
01:30:23,239 --> 01:30:25,079
did and has wrecked the record of Him in the

1755
01:30:25,119 --> 01:30:26,319
world that we observe.

1756
01:30:26,880 --> 01:30:28,840
Speaker 1: So do you believe everything you read? Or do you

1757
01:30:28,920 --> 01:30:30,720
like to know who wrote it and where it came from.

1758
01:30:31,000 --> 01:30:31,079
Speaker 3: Now?

1759
01:30:31,119 --> 01:30:34,279
Speaker 8: I don't believe everything I read I read, but there

1760
01:30:34,279 --> 01:30:35,880
are a lot of things that I do believe that

1761
01:30:35,960 --> 01:30:37,640
I read, Yes, okay.

1762
01:30:37,920 --> 01:30:42,560
Speaker 1: And when I read something that I'm going to accept

1763
01:30:42,600 --> 01:30:44,640
as true or not, I like to know who the

1764
01:30:44,680 --> 01:30:47,399
authors are, what they were writing, who their audience was

1765
01:30:47,439 --> 01:30:49,720
when it was written, what evidence they had, what evidence

1766
01:30:49,760 --> 01:30:53,560
they can point to. Who wrote the Gospels? Let's start

1767
01:30:53,600 --> 01:30:54,439
with that. Who wrote the.

1768
01:30:54,359 --> 01:30:59,399
Speaker 8: Gospels traditionally we have the titles on the titles of

1769
01:30:59,439 --> 01:31:01,399
the Gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

1770
01:31:02,159 --> 01:31:04,560
Speaker 1: But that's not my question. My question is who wrote them?

1771
01:31:05,159 --> 01:31:07,119
Speaker 8: Does actually I know who? I know that there was

1772
01:31:07,159 --> 01:31:11,479
a dictator in the book of Romans, Paul dictated Romans

1773
01:31:11,520 --> 01:31:14,000
to a guy called Theopolis. So there's one guy that

1774
01:31:14,079 --> 01:31:16,600
we can name who wrote Romans?

1775
01:31:16,720 --> 01:31:17,800
Speaker 1: Is that the Gospels?

1776
01:31:17,960 --> 01:31:20,319
Speaker 8: Wait a minute, was it? I might be I might

1777
01:31:20,359 --> 01:31:22,199
be actually calling his name wrong. I think it was.

1778
01:31:22,600 --> 01:31:23,600
What was that guy's name?

1779
01:31:25,159 --> 01:31:27,680
Speaker 1: Because you're not talking about the Gospels. My question was

1780
01:31:27,720 --> 01:31:30,439
who wrote the Gospels, not who wrote Romans? Who wrote

1781
01:31:30,439 --> 01:31:32,880
the Gospels? Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John? Who wrote those.

1782
01:31:33,319 --> 01:31:35,359
Speaker 8: People who saw Christ in the flesh?

1783
01:31:35,640 --> 01:31:39,319
Speaker 1: Okay, that's not true, at least none of the books

1784
01:31:39,319 --> 01:31:41,880
claimed that to be true. Do we have any original

1785
01:31:41,920 --> 01:31:43,560
copies of any part of the Gospels?

1786
01:31:44,159 --> 01:31:46,880
Speaker 8: Saying, are you saying the Gospels do not claim that

1787
01:31:46,920 --> 01:31:50,000
we saw and I witnessed the Christ in the earth.

1788
01:31:51,359 --> 01:31:54,239
Speaker 1: We are saying that the gospels the Gospels do not

1789
01:31:54,479 --> 01:31:58,119
claim that their authors were witnesses to any of the

1790
01:31:58,159 --> 01:32:02,239
events described in the Gospel. None of them say I

1791
01:32:02,560 --> 01:32:03,640
saw X.

1792
01:32:03,720 --> 01:32:08,159
Speaker 2: Well more importantly, Luke one one through four specifically, let

1793
01:32:08,239 --> 01:32:09,640
me quote it, because I got to right up here

1794
01:32:09,640 --> 01:32:11,199
in front of me, because I know you're going here.

1795
01:32:11,720 --> 01:32:15,119
Luke one says, many have undertaken to draw up on

1796
01:32:15,560 --> 01:32:18,399
an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us,

1797
01:32:18,600 --> 01:32:21,600
just as they were hounded down to us from those

1798
01:32:21,680 --> 01:32:24,720
who were from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of

1799
01:32:24,760 --> 01:32:27,880
the word. With this in mind, since I myself have

1800
01:32:28,039 --> 01:32:32,920
carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too, decided to

1801
01:32:33,039 --> 01:32:37,720
write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so

1802
01:32:37,800 --> 01:32:40,159
that you may know the certainly of the things you

1803
01:32:40,199 --> 01:32:43,239
have been taught. Luke, the author of Luke, is not

1804
01:32:43,279 --> 01:32:48,720
an eyewitness to anything. He's an investigator of everything. That's it. So,

1805
01:32:49,199 --> 01:32:52,399
of the four that you claim to be eyewitnesses, Luke

1806
01:32:52,479 --> 01:32:55,880
specifically said, he's not. So you have three that you

1807
01:32:56,000 --> 01:32:59,760
need to prove somehow are actually eyewitnesses and not some

1808
01:32:59,880 --> 01:33:01,840
of these accounts that Luke is talking about.

1809
01:33:02,119 --> 01:33:05,560
Speaker 1: So is that news to you, Watcher? Is that news

1810
01:33:05,600 --> 01:33:10,119
to you that the authors of the Gospels never claim

1811
01:33:10,279 --> 01:33:15,359
to be eyewitnesses, only talk about other people's claims. And

1812
01:33:15,640 --> 01:33:18,960
at least Luke says explicitly he's not an eyewitness. Is

1813
01:33:18,960 --> 01:33:20,119
that news to you?

1814
01:33:20,159 --> 01:33:22,199
Speaker 8: No, that's not news to me. No, not at all.

1815
01:33:22,560 --> 01:33:26,039
Speaker 1: So you knew that, Okay, I understood. I understood, So

1816
01:33:26,600 --> 01:33:28,840
you don't. So the short answer to my first question

1817
01:33:28,880 --> 01:33:31,840
of who wrote the Gospels is we don't know. We

1818
01:33:31,880 --> 01:33:33,039
don't know who that was, right.

1819
01:33:33,199 --> 01:33:37,079
Speaker 8: We know certain names that that are that are on

1820
01:33:37,159 --> 01:33:39,640
the record. We do know certain names, Yes, we.

1821
01:33:40,000 --> 01:33:42,800
Speaker 1: The question was do you know who put pen to

1822
01:33:42,880 --> 01:33:45,600
paper and wrote the Gospels? And the answer is no,

1823
01:33:45,840 --> 01:33:48,359
you don't, And no academic on the planet would even

1824
01:33:48,399 --> 01:33:50,720
say that we do. If you go open up a

1825
01:33:50,760 --> 01:33:54,279
study Bible. In the introduction to the Gospels, it will

1826
01:33:54,359 --> 01:33:57,479
tell you church tradition, says Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

1827
01:33:57,560 --> 01:33:59,680
But we know that that's not true. We don't know

1828
01:33:59,720 --> 01:34:02,720
who wrote these gospels. Okay, can we agree on that?

1829
01:34:02,720 --> 01:34:04,800
Speaker 8: I mean, it's not true because we don't.

1830
01:34:04,760 --> 01:34:07,359
Speaker 1: Have Well, can we agree that we don't know who

1831
01:34:07,439 --> 01:34:08,319
wrote the Gospels?

1832
01:34:09,000 --> 01:34:12,439
Speaker 8: I said who wrote it? Was the eyewitnesses of Christ

1833
01:34:12,479 --> 01:34:13,000
in the earth.

1834
01:34:13,119 --> 01:34:17,079
Speaker 1: Okay, that's we've They've already shown you that that is

1835
01:34:17,199 --> 01:34:20,640
not stated or claimed in the Gospels anywhere, and at

1836
01:34:20,720 --> 01:34:23,920
least one of the Gospels explicitly, as Jim said with

1837
01:34:24,039 --> 01:34:27,079
Luke says, I'm not an eyewitness, so I'm not sure

1838
01:34:27,079 --> 01:34:29,079
why you keep coming back to that. All I'm trying

1839
01:34:29,079 --> 01:34:31,239
to do is lay some groundwork here. This isn't even

1840
01:34:31,239 --> 01:34:34,079
the conversation. I just want a starting point. Do we

1841
01:34:34,159 --> 01:34:38,720
agree along with all the academics, Christian academics, Islamic academics,

1842
01:34:38,840 --> 01:34:42,600
Atheist academics all agree we don't know who wrote the Gospels?

1843
01:34:42,600 --> 01:34:44,039
Can we agree with that point one?

1844
01:34:44,199 --> 01:34:44,399
Speaker 3: Yes?

1845
01:34:44,479 --> 01:34:44,800
Speaker 2: Or no?

1846
01:34:45,079 --> 01:34:48,359
Speaker 8: I don't believe their testimony? No, I don't believe that testimony.

1847
01:34:48,520 --> 01:34:51,880
Speaker 1: No, you don't believe who's testimony, the author, the people

1848
01:34:51,880 --> 01:34:54,600
who print the Bible. Did you go do you have

1849
01:34:55,479 --> 01:34:59,680
a teaching Bible at your house? Teaching Bible a Bible

1850
01:34:59,680 --> 01:35:02,279
is stud would use when they're studying, like seminary or

1851
01:35:02,279 --> 01:35:03,119
other things like that.

1852
01:35:03,359 --> 01:35:06,319
Speaker 2: Have several Yeah, yes, So.

1853
01:35:06,359 --> 01:35:10,720
Speaker 1: If we can't even agree that human humanity today does

1854
01:35:10,760 --> 01:35:13,399
not know who wrote the Gospels, and I'm not sure

1855
01:35:13,399 --> 01:35:17,119
why we should even proceed, because you're not even schooled

1856
01:35:17,199 --> 01:35:20,800
enough in your own gospels to have a valid reason

1857
01:35:20,880 --> 01:35:22,840
to then conclude that God is real? What is your

1858
01:35:22,880 --> 01:35:23,520
what are your thoughts?

1859
01:35:23,560 --> 01:35:27,039
Speaker 2: Jim, Yeah, I mean we start with Luke, of course,

1860
01:35:27,279 --> 01:35:29,199
then we can go to Matthew and Mark. And when

1861
01:35:29,199 --> 01:35:31,119
we look at Matthew and Mark and then the originals

1862
01:35:31,119 --> 01:35:35,760
that we have, there's somewhere, depending on which biblical expert

1863
01:35:35,800 --> 01:35:39,039
you're looking at, somewhere between eighty and ninety percent copy

1864
01:35:40,000 --> 01:35:43,520
word for word copy between Mark and Matthew. Matthew appears

1865
01:35:43,520 --> 01:35:46,000
to correct Mark in several places. So I think, really,

1866
01:35:46,000 --> 01:35:49,039
what you have there is one copy that may or

1867
01:35:49,119 --> 01:35:52,399
may not be an eyewitness testimony. And even if it was,

1868
01:35:52,439 --> 01:35:55,960
I witness testimony that's eyewitness testimony is the least accurate

1869
01:35:56,000 --> 01:36:00,319
form of testimony or the least accurate pieces of evidence

1870
01:36:00,359 --> 01:36:03,720
you can use. So Okay, maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

1871
01:36:03,800 --> 01:36:05,640
I don't think it is because it doesn't read like

1872
01:36:05,680 --> 01:36:10,199
first person testimony. Luke is definitely not. And John John

1873
01:36:10,359 --> 01:36:13,560
just kind of in his own little universe where he

1874
01:36:13,640 --> 01:36:16,880
definitely pulls for Matthew, Mark, and Luke, but he also

1875
01:36:16,960 --> 01:36:20,039
adds on quite a bit. In fact, most of the

1876
01:36:20,079 --> 01:36:24,479
supernatural elements that come into the story of Christ come

1877
01:36:24,560 --> 01:36:27,800
from John. The idea that he's a sacrificial lamb comes

1878
01:36:27,800 --> 01:36:30,239
from John. We don't see that in Matthew, Mark or

1879
01:36:30,359 --> 01:36:34,079
Luke nearly as much as we do John. So yeah,

1880
01:36:34,119 --> 01:36:35,760
I just have problems with ship.

1881
01:36:35,880 --> 01:36:39,359
Speaker 1: Like as authorship, we don't know. Okay. So the next

1882
01:36:39,359 --> 01:36:41,319
point then is we don't have any originals. Do you

1883
01:36:41,359 --> 01:36:43,960
agree with that, Watcher, We don't have any original copies

1884
01:36:43,960 --> 01:36:46,159
of any portion of the Gospels. Do you agree with that?

1885
01:36:46,800 --> 01:36:49,800
Speaker 8: Yeah, I agreed to copies. Copies can be as well.

1886
01:36:50,039 --> 01:36:54,199
Speaker 1: So and the gospels, the stories of the Gospels started. Yeah, absolutely,

1887
01:36:54,239 --> 01:36:56,239
but let me just verify. I want to make sure

1888
01:36:56,239 --> 01:36:57,680
we agree on one more thing and then we can

1889
01:36:57,720 --> 01:36:58,760
we can start the conversation.

1890
01:36:59,399 --> 01:36:59,880
Speaker 3: Uh so.

1891
01:37:00,000 --> 01:37:02,520
Speaker 1: So the Gospel stories, like many of the stories in

1892
01:37:02,520 --> 01:37:05,880
the Bible, were started as oral tradition. They were told

1893
01:37:06,039 --> 01:37:09,880
from person to person over time, and the earliest we

1894
01:37:09,960 --> 01:37:16,680
can date any gospel claims writings is a generation after

1895
01:37:17,119 --> 01:37:23,479
Jesus's death, like seventy sixty BCE. So the first time

1896
01:37:23,560 --> 01:37:25,479
we think that anything was written down, even though we

1897
01:37:25,479 --> 01:37:29,560
don't have the originals, is approximately a generation thirty years

1898
01:37:29,560 --> 01:37:32,840
after Jesus died. So we don't know who wrote them.

1899
01:37:33,079 --> 01:37:35,640
They are anonymous. We don't have any originals, and the

1900
01:37:35,680 --> 01:37:38,640
earliest facts we can look at and say, oh, they

1901
01:37:38,640 --> 01:37:41,279
were aware of this history, so that they we know

1902
01:37:41,399 --> 01:37:43,159
that this had already happened to times. So it was

1903
01:37:43,159 --> 01:37:47,000
written around sixty to seventy BCE for the earliest Gospel.

1904
01:37:47,600 --> 01:37:51,399
All of that, to me creates a mishmash of stuff

1905
01:37:51,439 --> 01:37:53,760
that I wouldn't rely on. Why do you rely on

1906
01:37:53,800 --> 01:37:55,720
all that stuff? That's the conversation I want to have.

1907
01:37:56,000 --> 01:37:59,039
Speaker 8: Because God is faithful, Because He's very faithful, and he

1908
01:37:59,119 --> 01:38:00,680
demonstrates it every single day.

1909
01:38:00,880 --> 01:38:02,960
Speaker 1: Wait wait, wait, wait wait, you said you said you

1910
01:38:03,119 --> 01:38:06,159
used the Gospels to convince you that there was a God.

1911
01:38:06,199 --> 01:38:08,399
But now you're saying, because of God you believe in

1912
01:38:08,439 --> 01:38:10,000
the gospels. Which one is it?

1913
01:38:10,079 --> 01:38:10,279
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1914
01:38:10,279 --> 01:38:12,880
Speaker 8: I came to know I came as both. I came

1915
01:38:12,920 --> 01:38:15,199
to know God through the word of God that was

1916
01:38:15,199 --> 01:38:18,039
in the Bible, the testimony of Christ, and then the

1917
01:38:18,079 --> 01:38:21,439
demonstration of my daily The fruit of that in my

1918
01:38:21,560 --> 01:38:24,640
daily life has been the empirical evidence that I used

1919
01:38:24,760 --> 01:38:26,000
to continue to believe.

1920
01:38:26,680 --> 01:38:29,760
Speaker 2: So what was it gospel? What was it about the

1921
01:38:29,760 --> 01:38:33,479
Gospel specifically that convinced you that these stories were true?

1922
01:38:33,680 --> 01:38:37,640
Speaker 8: Christ's command to love God and to love my neighbor as.

1923
01:38:37,479 --> 01:38:41,239
Speaker 1: Myself, that that command is something that convinced you, like,

1924
01:38:41,359 --> 01:38:43,279
you thought it was a good command, so you thought

1925
01:38:43,279 --> 01:38:47,560
it was a it was a true accounting of what happened. Absolutely, Okay,

1926
01:38:47,600 --> 01:38:49,800
So you believe anything that you agree with? Is that

1927
01:38:49,840 --> 01:38:50,399
what you're saying?

1928
01:38:50,640 --> 01:38:53,920
Speaker 8: No, No, I'm not saying that that would be very

1929
01:38:55,239 --> 01:38:57,720
a problem because I could. There's a lot of things

1930
01:38:57,720 --> 01:39:00,000
that I that I might like that are not good.

1931
01:39:00,520 --> 01:39:02,319
I've experienced that in my life as well.

1932
01:39:02,479 --> 01:39:05,479
Speaker 1: So no, I'm saying, okay, you said that you believed

1933
01:39:05,520 --> 01:39:08,880
if you believed in the Gospels because Jesus, the character

1934
01:39:08,920 --> 01:39:11,279
of Jesus in the Gospels, did something that you agreed

1935
01:39:11,319 --> 01:39:12,079
with that you liked.

1936
01:39:12,359 --> 01:39:15,119
Speaker 8: I wasn't finished. Can I finish my statement?

1937
01:39:15,600 --> 01:39:17,159
Speaker 1: I just want you to or try to get to

1938
01:39:17,159 --> 01:39:19,239
the point. We've been through this about a thousand times,

1939
01:39:19,239 --> 01:39:21,359
and our viewers have been through it about a thousand times.

1940
01:39:21,479 --> 01:39:23,640
So if you could just like I asked a series

1941
01:39:23,680 --> 01:39:25,279
of questions and then I let you explain yourself. And

1942
01:39:25,279 --> 01:39:26,680
then I ask a series of questions and then I

1943
01:39:26,760 --> 01:39:31,399
let you explain yourself. So you said, because Jesus commanded

1944
01:39:31,439 --> 01:39:34,159
us to love, that's why you believe in the Gospels

1945
01:39:34,239 --> 01:39:37,640
that the Gospels are true. My point is, so Jesus

1946
01:39:37,680 --> 01:39:41,119
did something that you agree with, and that is why

1947
01:39:41,159 --> 01:39:43,239
you agree with the gospel, that you believe the Gospels

1948
01:39:43,239 --> 01:39:45,319
are true. Do I understand you correctly?

1949
01:39:45,520 --> 01:39:47,560
Speaker 8: Yeah, that'd be fine. I'll go with that. Yeah, I

1950
01:39:47,600 --> 01:39:50,840
do agree with it, and I believe it's true.

1951
01:39:51,039 --> 01:39:54,199
Speaker 1: Yes, And you believe it's true because you agree with it.

1952
01:39:54,399 --> 01:39:57,920
Speaker 8: Well, not only not just because I agree with it,

1953
01:39:58,039 --> 01:40:01,640
but because it's demonstrated in my early life, like between

1954
01:40:01,680 --> 01:40:05,039
you and I, Jim and my and cross examiner and

1955
01:40:05,079 --> 01:40:08,000
myself is command for me to love Jim and to

1956
01:40:08,119 --> 01:40:10,640
love you. I agree with that, and I think that

1957
01:40:10,640 --> 01:40:14,680
that's very very helpful and demoicab evidence of the truth

1958
01:40:14,760 --> 01:40:15,319
of the matter.

1959
01:40:15,720 --> 01:40:19,560
Speaker 2: Sorry, how does that prove God exists? How does that

1960
01:40:19,600 --> 01:40:20,920
prove that the Bible is true?

1961
01:40:21,119 --> 01:40:21,319
Speaker 3: Well?

1962
01:40:21,720 --> 01:40:24,760
Speaker 8: Christ, Christ is the proof. Christ is the proof in

1963
01:40:24,800 --> 01:40:29,560
the flesh of Christ. If not for the gospels, all

1964
01:40:29,600 --> 01:40:31,720
of the eyewitnesses that saw him.

1965
01:40:31,840 --> 01:40:34,039
Speaker 1: Which eyewitnesses, which name them?

1966
01:40:34,079 --> 01:40:34,399
Speaker 3: Who?

1967
01:40:34,600 --> 01:40:36,199
Speaker 1: Where? How do we know that they're real?

1968
01:40:36,680 --> 01:40:38,680
Speaker 8: We don't got all. We don't got all the names.

1969
01:40:38,680 --> 01:40:40,600
We don't got all. Paul was one of them, but

1970
01:40:40,640 --> 01:40:41,399
we don't have.

1971
01:40:41,319 --> 01:40:44,279
Speaker 1: A Paul never met Us.

1972
01:40:45,399 --> 01:40:47,399
Speaker 2: Sorry, you go ahead, we said exactly Jim.

1973
01:40:48,199 --> 01:40:49,800
Speaker 1: Paul never met Jesus. Go ahead.

1974
01:40:50,319 --> 01:40:53,760
Speaker 2: Paul never met the living Jesus. Paul had a vision.

1975
01:40:53,800 --> 01:40:55,680
That was all he had, and then he took that

1976
01:40:55,840 --> 01:40:59,880
vision and he went to supposedly to Peter and the Apostles.

1977
01:41:00,039 --> 01:41:02,159
They said, yeah, we don't disagree with anything you say.

1978
01:41:02,159 --> 01:41:05,119
It's what Paul climbs. Right, Paul never saw Jesus. He's

1979
01:41:05,159 --> 01:41:08,840
not a witness to Jesus. He is a witness to best,

1980
01:41:08,920 --> 01:41:11,159
He's a witness to a hallucination.

1981
01:41:11,520 --> 01:41:11,680
Speaker 3: Right.

1982
01:41:11,960 --> 01:41:16,640
Speaker 2: So no, so you don't have witnesses you have at best.

1983
01:41:16,720 --> 01:41:20,039
If I still man your argument, you have three witnesses, Mark,

1984
01:41:20,199 --> 01:41:24,199
Matthew and John. Mark, Matthew and John give us three

1985
01:41:24,279 --> 01:41:29,199
completely different stories that, in many cases cannot be reconciled.

1986
01:41:29,680 --> 01:41:34,399
So how does agreeing with something prove that your God exists?

1987
01:41:34,479 --> 01:41:37,319
And you can't use eyewitnesses because you can't point to

1988
01:41:37,359 --> 01:41:39,359
any that are worth anything.

1989
01:41:39,800 --> 01:41:43,960
Speaker 8: Paul is an eyewitness.

1990
01:41:45,039 --> 01:41:47,720
Speaker 1: Paul is an eye hold on, hold on, hold on,

1991
01:41:47,880 --> 01:41:51,399
hold on watcher. Paul is an eyewitness to what what

1992
01:41:51,439 --> 01:41:53,640
did he see? Sense? Smell?

1993
01:41:53,720 --> 01:41:56,399
Speaker 8: Here, It's in the record, it's in acts. He told

1994
01:41:56,439 --> 01:41:58,640
you exactly what he saw, did.

1995
01:41:58,520 --> 01:42:00,920
Speaker 1: He But you're bringing it up as if you're making

1996
01:42:00,960 --> 01:42:03,880
a point. What did he witness? What's the relevance of

1997
01:42:03,920 --> 01:42:05,479
this claim? What did he witness?

1998
01:42:05,720 --> 01:42:08,079
Speaker 8: And everything that's in the record is what he witnessed.

1999
01:42:08,199 --> 01:42:10,239
Speaker 1: You can go read it, Okay, So you don't know,

2000
01:42:10,399 --> 01:42:14,479
thank you any other comments you want to make, Jim.

2001
01:42:14,960 --> 01:42:19,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, So then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against

2002
01:42:19,399 --> 01:42:21,159
the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priests

2003
01:42:21,159 --> 01:42:24,319
and asked for letters. He had a vision, he did

2004
01:42:24,359 --> 01:42:28,279
not experience. He was not an eyewitness to the life

2005
01:42:28,279 --> 01:42:31,439
of Christ. Everything he did was after Christ's death, so

2006
01:42:31,479 --> 01:42:33,680
he cannot be an eyewitness to that. He could only

2007
01:42:33,680 --> 01:42:36,039
be an eyewitness. I mean, how do you not know this?

2008
01:42:36,119 --> 01:42:38,119
You claim to know the Bible, you should know this.

2009
01:42:38,399 --> 01:42:40,720
And I don't think you knew that Luke actually said

2010
01:42:40,920 --> 01:42:43,399
that he's not an eyewitness, or you wouldn't be saying,

2011
01:42:43,600 --> 01:42:47,199
as so many Christians do, that their four eyewitnesses Matthew, Mark, Luke,

2012
01:42:47,199 --> 01:42:49,119
and John. And I think that's what you meant until

2013
01:42:49,159 --> 01:42:51,520
I read Luke wan, because I don't think most Christians

2014
01:42:51,560 --> 01:42:55,119
have read Luke want right, So again, you just haven't

2015
01:42:55,159 --> 01:42:58,159
given us anyway to get from I read something I

2016
01:42:58,239 --> 01:43:02,039
agree with to a God, much less believing that the

2017
01:43:02,159 --> 01:43:05,640
entire Bible is true or the entire Gospel Gospel is true.

2018
01:43:06,319 --> 01:43:08,079
Speaker 8: Is a vision? Jim?

2019
01:43:09,359 --> 01:43:12,359
Speaker 1: Could you could.

2020
01:43:11,119 --> 01:43:12,000
Speaker 3: You do that?

2021
01:43:12,199 --> 01:43:14,600
Speaker 1: Hold on, I didn't hear him. Could you repeat that? Watcher?

2022
01:43:14,800 --> 01:43:19,199
Speaker 8: I ask you, Jim, what is a vision something you see?

2023
01:43:19,359 --> 01:43:23,640
Speaker 1: Yeah? So people have interpreted Paul differently, but no no

2024
01:43:24,359 --> 01:43:28,479
Christian on the planet that has studied the Bible would

2025
01:43:28,479 --> 01:43:33,760
say that Paul met the living Jesus. Most people will

2026
01:43:33,760 --> 01:43:37,600
say he had a vision of Jesus from heaven or

2027
01:43:37,840 --> 01:43:41,560
other people will say he had a hallucination, something happened

2028
01:43:41,600 --> 01:43:45,199
in his mind where he came to some sort of understanding.

2029
01:43:45,560 --> 01:43:49,119
But it is not an eyewitness, right. He didn't see

2030
01:43:49,239 --> 01:43:53,600
Jesus perform miracles. He didn't choose, see Jesus be resurrected,

2031
01:43:53,840 --> 01:43:57,239
all the things that every other Christian cites as things

2032
01:43:57,279 --> 01:44:00,680
that prove that Jesus was divine. He didn't any of that.

2033
01:44:01,239 --> 01:44:03,119
Do you understand that you saw.

2034
01:44:04,560 --> 01:44:04,600
Speaker 3: It?

2035
01:44:06,479 --> 01:44:08,520
Speaker 1: It's as if he woke up one day and said,

2036
01:44:08,560 --> 01:44:11,760
I just had a dream about Jesus. That's the level

2037
01:44:12,000 --> 01:44:15,439
of witnessing we're talking about. Do you understand that that's

2038
01:44:15,800 --> 01:44:18,000
like everybody agrees on this. That's what Paul says.

2039
01:44:18,039 --> 01:44:20,840
Speaker 8: If you go read it, that's the testimony. The testimony

2040
01:44:20,880 --> 01:44:22,960
is very explicit about what happened to Paul.

2041
01:44:23,159 --> 01:44:26,319
Speaker 2: Yes, it is. Actually as he as he journeyed, he

2042
01:44:26,399 --> 01:44:29,560
came near Dabascus, and suddenly a light shone around him

2043
01:44:29,560 --> 01:44:31,600
from heaven, and he fell to the ground and heard

2044
01:44:31,600 --> 01:44:33,760
a voice saying to him, Saul, Saul, why are you

2045
01:44:33,800 --> 01:44:36,880
persecuting me? And he said, who are you? Lord? The

2046
01:44:37,199 --> 01:44:40,399
Lord said, I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It

2047
01:44:40,479 --> 01:44:42,920
is hard for you to kick against the goads. So

2048
01:44:43,000 --> 01:44:44,920
he trembling and aston and says, Lord, what do you

2049
01:44:44,920 --> 01:44:47,880
want me to do? So that is exactly what he had.

2050
01:44:48,079 --> 01:44:52,399
He had a vision of somebody claiming to be Jesus

2051
01:44:52,760 --> 01:44:58,239
who he is persecuting, and that's it. He doesn't get instruction, right, You.

2052
01:44:58,239 --> 01:45:02,119
Speaker 8: Don't, right, simple as that right? What I believe his testimony,

2053
01:45:02,159 --> 01:45:04,399
and you do not. You think it's you think it's

2054
01:45:04,600 --> 01:45:05,079
I don't.

2055
01:45:05,319 --> 01:45:09,520
Speaker 2: Know, it's well, I don't because I don't. It's just

2056
01:45:09,880 --> 01:45:12,399
at best, the Bible's historical thing. You know what you

2057
01:45:12,439 --> 01:45:16,199
don't get to Paul as an eyewitness to Jesus Christ

2058
01:45:16,479 --> 01:45:20,239
and his life and the things that he did. From uh,

2059
01:45:20,239 --> 01:45:23,239
where are we in here? At nine one?

2060
01:45:23,439 --> 01:45:28,079
Speaker 1: Through going back to the question were going back to

2061
01:45:28,079 --> 01:45:32,840
the watchers question. I can believe Paul's testimony without accepting

2062
01:45:32,880 --> 01:45:34,119
that there is in fact a God.

2063
01:45:34,880 --> 01:45:38,800
Speaker 8: Absolutely, Paul didn't testify that he had uh, what do

2064
01:45:38,840 --> 01:45:41,560
you call it? A what do you call hallucination? He

2065
01:45:41,600 --> 01:45:43,800
didn't testify and he had hallucination? Yep.

2066
01:45:43,880 --> 01:45:44,760
Speaker 3: So you don't believe that.

2067
01:45:44,760 --> 01:45:46,199
Speaker 2: I believe that.

2068
01:45:46,880 --> 01:45:49,800
Speaker 1: Okay, So do you believe everybody that claims that they

2069
01:45:49,840 --> 01:45:50,439
spoke to God?

2070
01:45:50,840 --> 01:45:51,079
Speaker 8: Again?

2071
01:45:51,439 --> 01:45:54,319
Speaker 1: Do you believe everyone who claims they spoke to God?

2072
01:45:54,600 --> 01:45:56,920
Speaker 8: Pretty much? Yeah? If they say they spoke to God,

2073
01:45:56,960 --> 01:45:59,479
that's that would be prepper and that happens every day

2074
01:45:59,520 --> 01:45:59,880
all over.

2075
01:46:00,199 --> 01:46:00,760
Speaker 3: Wow.

2076
01:46:01,039 --> 01:46:07,239
Speaker 1: So you believe with Muslims that they spoke to God, yeah,

2077
01:46:07,279 --> 01:46:10,319
and that that that God told them to do something

2078
01:46:10,359 --> 01:46:13,279
harmful to you? And you believe Christians who spoke to

2079
01:46:13,319 --> 01:46:16,079
God and blow up abortion clinics. And you believe that

2080
01:46:16,239 --> 01:46:20,119
evangelists who go on TV and tell you to give

2081
01:46:20,199 --> 01:46:22,560
them their your money, that they spoke to God.

2082
01:46:22,920 --> 01:46:25,359
Speaker 8: No, you know, a tree by its fruits. That's what

2083
01:46:25,560 --> 01:46:26,359
the well, you.

2084
01:46:26,319 --> 01:46:28,600
Speaker 1: Don't believe everybody that.

2085
01:46:28,119 --> 01:46:30,880
Speaker 8: I would not they say that they spoke to God,

2086
01:46:30,920 --> 01:46:33,520
I would definitely believe that whether or not. Now, if

2087
01:46:33,520 --> 01:46:35,720
there's God, if they're telling me that God told them

2088
01:46:35,760 --> 01:46:38,319
to harm you or I, or that they did some

2089
01:46:38,439 --> 01:46:41,479
heinous thing against God's law, No, I don't believe that

2090
01:46:41,520 --> 01:46:44,119
they that they heard from God. I believe they following

2091
01:46:44,119 --> 01:46:46,239
their own lives or the devil.

2092
01:46:46,000 --> 01:46:50,159
Speaker 2: And would you say that somebody who commanded another person

2093
01:46:51,000 --> 01:46:53,279
to harm one of their children and then at the

2094
01:46:53,359 --> 01:46:55,640
last second go psych I didn't want you to do that,

2095
01:46:55,680 --> 01:46:57,479
would you consider that harmful or good?

2096
01:46:57,720 --> 01:46:58,319
Speaker 3: It was good?

2097
01:46:58,479 --> 01:47:03,000
Speaker 8: Absolutely good, because okay, somebody.

2098
01:47:02,680 --> 01:47:07,520
Speaker 1: Who will all right, here's let's yeah, let's I think

2099
01:47:07,520 --> 01:47:10,680
we figured out where we disagree. And I think I think,

2100
01:47:10,960 --> 01:47:13,760
thank you very much Watcher for your time. We're at

2101
01:47:13,439 --> 01:47:17,479
our time. I think where Jim, I don't know about you,

2102
01:47:17,479 --> 01:47:19,840
but I think where we disagree is I think that

2103
01:47:19,920 --> 01:47:24,199
Watcher was probably raised or discovered Christianity and he is

2104
01:47:24,279 --> 01:47:28,920
desperately looking for reasons to continue to believe it, because

2105
01:47:28,960 --> 01:47:32,039
there's no way you go from I studied the Gospels

2106
01:47:32,279 --> 01:47:35,800
to UH to concluding that there's definitely a God if

2107
01:47:35,840 --> 01:47:37,159
you really know what you're talking about.

2108
01:47:37,359 --> 01:47:40,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think if you study the gospels, not just

2109
01:47:40,640 --> 01:47:44,880
read them, I mean, we could have gone into the

2110
01:47:45,239 --> 01:47:48,640
Last Supper and when that is according to which gospels

2111
01:47:48,720 --> 01:47:52,600
Because you can't really reconcile this without making some really

2112
01:47:52,640 --> 01:47:56,399
really outrageous claims about timekeeping and other things like that.

2113
01:47:57,479 --> 01:48:00,479
There's just so much wrong with that. But just the

2114
01:48:00,520 --> 01:48:03,319
fact that I really believe that he did not know

2115
01:48:03,720 --> 01:48:07,079
that Luke specifically says that Luke is not an eyewitness,

2116
01:48:07,119 --> 01:48:09,079
that he investigated the clans.

2117
01:48:09,720 --> 01:48:13,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's what leads me to that conclusion. When

2118
01:48:13,159 --> 01:48:16,600
when somebody calls up and says so confidently in this

2119
01:48:17,359 --> 01:48:20,520
like I believe God and the Gospels are true, and

2120
01:48:20,600 --> 01:48:23,279
God says love everybody, and then you start asking these

2121
01:48:23,359 --> 01:48:25,880
questions which listeners. That's why we do it. We ask

2122
01:48:25,960 --> 01:48:28,239
a series of questions before we let you talk, because

2123
01:48:28,279 --> 01:48:29,840
we want to figure out what you do and do

2124
01:48:29,920 --> 01:48:31,600
and agree with and what you do and don't know.

2125
01:48:32,319 --> 01:48:35,199
When you reveal that you don't know that the Gospels

2126
01:48:35,359 --> 01:48:37,439
never claim to be eyewitnesses, and one of them says

2127
01:48:37,479 --> 01:48:39,800
that they aren't. When you don't know that Paul never

2128
01:48:39,880 --> 01:48:43,680
met the living Jesus. You need to go read your Bible.

2129
01:48:43,880 --> 01:48:45,880
I will encourage you to go read it and study

2130
01:48:45,880 --> 01:48:48,760
it because the people who have been teaching you your

2131
01:48:48,840 --> 01:48:51,920
Christianity are probably as ignorant as you are. And I

2132
01:48:51,960 --> 01:48:54,359
don't mean that in a negative sense. I am ignorant

2133
01:48:54,359 --> 01:48:56,600
about a lot of things. Jim's ignorant about a lot

2134
01:48:56,640 --> 01:49:03,760
of things. Our producer Greg is ignorant almost everything. I think. Right. Yeah,

2135
01:49:03,960 --> 01:49:09,359
So when you go and you actually read the Bible

2136
01:49:09,439 --> 01:49:12,479
and study its history, study where it comes from, you

2137
01:49:12,520 --> 01:49:14,720
will realize, like a lot of people do who go

2138
01:49:14,760 --> 01:49:18,119
to seminary school, that there's not a lot of there there.

2139
01:49:18,520 --> 01:49:21,199
That you are being taught things as being true, and

2140
01:49:21,279 --> 01:49:24,000
it all becomes self referential. If I told you that

2141
01:49:24,119 --> 01:49:27,760
Dumbledore said to love everyone and free the house elves,

2142
01:49:28,279 --> 01:49:31,720
you wouldn't say that Dumbledore is true and exists. Yet

2143
01:49:31,760 --> 01:49:34,000
you do that with Jesus because people around you are

2144
01:49:34,039 --> 01:49:36,720
saying that it's true. So I would encourage you to

2145
01:49:37,039 --> 01:49:38,119
can do and read reading.

2146
01:49:38,319 --> 01:49:41,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, take the four Gospels and put on a timeline

2147
01:49:41,760 --> 01:49:43,880
all the events that happen and then next to each other,

2148
01:49:43,920 --> 01:49:46,720
and take a look at how they represent all of

2149
01:49:46,800 --> 01:49:50,960
these events because they don't all line up. And what

2150
01:49:51,000 --> 01:49:54,840
you're going to realize is that Mark ends with the

2151
01:49:54,880 --> 01:49:59,000
women ran away, the Great Commission, Great Commissions, Mark, right, Yeah,

2152
01:49:59,680 --> 01:50:02,960
is an afterthought, right, it was added, But how do

2153
01:50:03,039 --> 01:50:06,880
you reconcile the Great Commission with and they ran away

2154
01:50:07,079 --> 01:50:09,279
and didn't say anything to anybody? So how do you

2155
01:50:09,359 --> 01:50:11,760
get any of these stories if they said nothing to nobody?

2156
01:50:11,880 --> 01:50:16,319
Clearly they talk to somebody, right, And look at where

2157
01:50:16,359 --> 01:50:20,319
Matthew appears to talk to Mark, and then figure it

2158
01:50:20,319 --> 01:50:23,359
out that way. It's really really easy, and it's absolutely

2159
01:50:23,399 --> 01:50:26,920
astonishing when you begin to realize that what you think

2160
01:50:27,079 --> 01:50:31,439
is Christ's story is not supported by any single story,

2161
01:50:31,479 --> 01:50:34,439
and that the four stories you have don't actually line

2162
01:50:34,520 --> 01:50:36,800
up to give you the story you think you know.

2163
01:50:37,000 --> 01:50:39,720
And it at least change your beliefs on what Jesus

2164
01:50:39,720 --> 01:50:41,960
said and did and when he said it and did it,

2165
01:50:42,000 --> 01:50:45,039
because he didn't just say love everybody either, because he

2166
01:50:45,079 --> 01:50:49,039
also said I came to bring what strife.

2167
01:50:49,119 --> 01:50:52,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, not a jot or tittle of the law that

2168
01:50:52,960 --> 01:50:55,600
tells us to enslave people into stone women to death.

2169
01:50:55,680 --> 01:50:57,920
Not a jot or tittle of that shall change under

2170
01:50:58,000 --> 01:51:00,000
Jesus until all has come to pass.

2171
01:51:00,520 --> 01:51:02,640
Speaker 2: And if you think God isn't the author of confusion,

2172
01:51:02,920 --> 01:51:04,720
use the Bible to figure out what you can eat.

2173
01:51:06,039 --> 01:51:08,239
Speaker 1: Going back to who is it Alex with the bacon

2174
01:51:08,319 --> 01:51:11,159
or no, that was Luke, Luke and the bacon. When

2175
01:51:11,199 --> 01:51:12,880
you first started talking about bacon, I thought he was

2176
01:51:12,880 --> 01:51:20,039
talking about Francis Bacon. I'm like, I haven't read Francis. Well, Jim,

2177
01:51:20,359 --> 01:51:21,920
I wanted to thank you. I know we had one

2178
01:51:21,920 --> 01:51:24,159
other call. I'm sorry we didn't have time to get you.

2179
01:51:24,159 --> 01:51:26,319
This went ran long. We had some long calls in there.

2180
01:51:26,960 --> 01:51:31,199
I did want to thank our back up for helping

2181
01:51:31,319 --> 01:51:34,279
out tonight. Do we have Ben on the line here? Hello?

2182
01:51:34,359 --> 01:51:34,640
Speaker 2: Ben?

2183
01:51:35,159 --> 01:51:36,039
Speaker 3: Hey, how's it going?

2184
01:51:36,119 --> 01:51:36,439
Speaker 2: Guys?

2185
01:51:36,600 --> 01:51:40,119
Speaker 1: Hey Ben, Hey, the least ignorant of us all. How

2186
01:51:40,119 --> 01:51:41,960
are you doing.

2187
01:51:41,520 --> 01:51:45,920
Speaker 7: I've just been enjoying the whacking and crazy fun times

2188
01:51:46,000 --> 01:51:46,920
on some of these calls.

2189
01:51:46,920 --> 01:51:49,560
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, what's your thoughts on there? Do you

2190
01:51:49,560 --> 01:51:50,920
have any any notes?

2191
01:51:51,319 --> 01:51:51,520
Speaker 3: Oh?

2192
01:51:51,600 --> 01:51:55,600
Speaker 7: Sure, Just like the last one. It always perplexes me,

2193
01:51:55,720 --> 01:51:58,880
the shifting of what proof is. Oh, the proof is

2194
01:51:58,920 --> 01:52:00,880
in the Gospels, but the Guy gospels are approved by

2195
01:52:00,960 --> 01:52:05,399
God and the actually it's the proof is is.

2196
01:52:05,359 --> 01:52:07,039
Speaker 3: What the teachings of God.

2197
01:52:07,119 --> 01:52:09,359
Speaker 7: But the teachings can only be true because they're they're

2198
01:52:09,399 --> 01:52:13,039
reinforced by the Gospels being true, and then ultimately came

2199
01:52:13,079 --> 01:52:14,840
down to like, well, I feel like those are correct,

2200
01:52:14,880 --> 01:52:18,079
so that must mean that they're an actual source of truth.

2201
01:52:18,159 --> 01:52:20,840
But I'm only believing that because of what I heard

2202
01:52:20,840 --> 01:52:24,439
from the Bible in the first place. It just circof

2203
01:52:24,520 --> 01:52:30,399
is in the putting, right, Oh sure, yeah.

2204
01:52:28,319 --> 01:52:30,359
Speaker 1: That's the that's the part of the original copy we

2205
01:52:30,359 --> 01:52:31,920
don't have is the recipe for the pudding.

2206
01:52:32,000 --> 01:52:36,800
Speaker 7: Dammit, that didn't Well, you can't have any putting if

2207
01:52:36,800 --> 01:52:38,560
you don't eat your meat, so that's true.

2208
01:52:38,920 --> 01:52:42,880
Speaker 1: Very good point. Well, I really want to thank you, Ben.

2209
01:52:43,239 --> 01:52:44,760
For those who don't know, we have a backup host

2210
01:52:44,800 --> 01:52:47,279
in case something goes wrong technically, So thank you very

2211
01:52:47,359 --> 01:52:49,760
much for being here, and thanks as always to Jim,

2212
01:52:49,840 --> 01:52:52,680
who is knowledge of these sorts of things far as

2213
01:52:52,680 --> 01:52:53,800
outstrips my own.

2214
01:52:54,000 --> 01:52:54,159
Speaker 3: You.

2215
01:52:54,439 --> 01:52:56,600
Speaker 1: You made a lot of great points tonight that I

2216
01:52:56,640 --> 01:52:58,880
think I wouldness. I really appreciate you being here.

2217
01:52:58,960 --> 01:53:01,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was fun, and you made some points to

2218
01:53:01,199 --> 01:53:02,800
that I hadn't thought of, so oh great.

2219
01:53:02,880 --> 01:53:03,239
Speaker 3: That good.

2220
01:53:03,479 --> 01:53:09,880
Speaker 1: That rarely happens. All right, well it happens war you think, Well,

2221
01:53:09,920 --> 01:53:13,000
I guess we the show. Will see you next week. Everybody,

2222
01:53:13,000 --> 01:53:16,279
We're here at Sundays at four thirty pm Central Time.

2223
01:53:16,439 --> 01:53:18,199
Join us now in the after show. I know I'll

2224
01:53:18,239 --> 01:53:21,000
be here, maybe some other people will be here on

2225
01:53:21,119 --> 01:53:25,079
our discord. And thanks again for everybody showing up. And UH,

2226
01:53:25,359 --> 01:53:27,680
be careful out there. Believe, believe in the things you

2227
01:53:27,680 --> 01:53:35,039
have evidence for. Bye bye, glad to start already

2228
01:53:37,159 --> 01:53:47,159
Speaker 3: Stop