WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.119 --> 00:00:11.560 You are now listening to True Murder the most shocking 2 00:00:11.640 --> 00:00:14.679 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.759 --> 00:00:22.320 written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every week, 4 00:00:22.480 --> 00:00:26.320 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 5 00:00:26.399 --> 00:00:30.399 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 6 00:00:30.760 --> 00:00:35.119 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 7 00:00:40.640 --> 00:00:45.719 Good Evening. In Obsessed, My Relentless Pursuit of the Zodiac Killer, 8 00:00:46.320 --> 00:00:50.000 doctor Mark Hewitt invites readers into his gripping journey of 9 00:00:50.079 --> 00:00:55.479 unraveling one of America's most enduring mysteries. Doctor Hewitt, an 10 00:00:55.520 --> 00:00:58.920 expert on the Zodiac Case an author of the acclaimed 11 00:00:59.000 --> 00:01:04.519 Zodiac serial Killer trilogy, shares his transformation from a pastor 12 00:01:04.959 --> 00:01:11.200 to a dedicated true crime investigator. This memoir details doctor 13 00:01:11.239 --> 00:01:16.280 Hewitt's meticulous research, personal encounters, and the profound impact of 14 00:01:16.319 --> 00:01:21.760 the Zodiac Case on his life. Moving to California reignited 15 00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:25.920 his passion, leading him to explore crime scenes and connect 16 00:01:26.159 --> 00:01:31.120 with other enthusiasts. His relentless pursuit is not only about 17 00:01:31.159 --> 00:01:36.079 the Zodiac, but also about understanding the complexities of human 18 00:01:36.159 --> 00:01:42.439 nature and the quest for truth. Obsessed, My Relentless Pursuit 19 00:01:42.519 --> 00:01:46.480 of the Zodiac Killer provides a unique blend of personal 20 00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:51.920 narrative and investigative insight, offering readers a compelling look at 21 00:01:51.920 --> 00:01:55.840 the determination and challenges faced by those who seek to 22 00:01:55.920 --> 00:02:01.519 solve cold cases. Join doctor Hewitt as he navigates the 23 00:02:01.640 --> 00:02:05.760 twists and turns of this enigmatic case, shedding light on 24 00:02:05.840 --> 00:02:10.639 his life's work in his unwavering commitment to uncovering the truth. 25 00:02:12.360 --> 00:02:15.919 The book that we're featuring this evening is Obsessed My 26 00:02:16.199 --> 00:02:20.400 Relentless Pursuit of the Zodiac Killer, with my special guest, 27 00:02:20.840 --> 00:02:26.719 Zodiac expert and true crime author Mark Hewitt. Good evening, 28 00:02:26.759 --> 00:02:30.800 and welcome back to the program, Mark Hewitt, Thank you 29 00:02:31.759 --> 00:02:37.639 and congratulations on your latest book, Obsessed My Relentless Pursuit 30 00:02:37.719 --> 00:02:40.719 of the Zodiac Killer. Congratulations, Thank you. 31 00:02:40.840 --> 00:02:41.039 Dan. 32 00:02:42.639 --> 00:02:45.560 Now, you have three published books on the case, and 33 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:51.199 I've interviewed you each and every time. You were often asked, 34 00:02:51.319 --> 00:02:55.520 how did you become interested specifically in the Zodiac serial 35 00:02:55.639 --> 00:02:56.360 killer case. 36 00:02:57.680 --> 00:03:00.560 That's correct, and that's what was the impetus for writing 37 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:05.960 this book. I felt that after releasing my trilogy in 38 00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:10.520 twenty sixteen, seventeen and eighteen, I hadn't really shared much 39 00:03:10.520 --> 00:03:13.599 of my backstory, how I got into it, why I 40 00:03:13.639 --> 00:03:17.240 find the case so fascinating. In talking to people about 41 00:03:17.240 --> 00:03:19.240 my books, people always say, so, how did you get 42 00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:22.639 into this? How'd you get into writing? Why are you 43 00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:25.599 interested in the zodiac that type of thing, And so 44 00:03:25.719 --> 00:03:28.120 that's kind of a question I've been wrestling with for 45 00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:33.080 years now, and I decided to sit down and retell 46 00:03:33.120 --> 00:03:35.719 my story of how I got into it all. So 47 00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:38.479 in the book Obsessed, I go all the way back 48 00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:41.879 to my childhood and the first true crime book I 49 00:03:41.919 --> 00:03:46.840 ever read was about Lizzie Borden, a young woman who 50 00:03:48.680 --> 00:03:53.759 allegedly killed her father and stepmother with a hatchet back 51 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:57.960 in eighteen ninety four in Massachusetts, And it kind of 52 00:03:58.120 --> 00:04:00.240 opened up a world for me when I read that book, 53 00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:04.560 because it's such a fascinating story. She was acquitted at trial, 54 00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:07.840 but the people in the town kind of all knew 55 00:04:07.840 --> 00:04:10.879 that she was responsible, but they just didn't have the 56 00:04:11.800 --> 00:04:15.560 gumption or the ability, or the willingness to watch her hang. 57 00:04:16.319 --> 00:04:19.680 So she was found not guilty and then lived a 58 00:04:19.720 --> 00:04:24.040 life of obscurity. And that whole story just fascinated me 59 00:04:24.120 --> 00:04:27.800 and stuck with me over the years. And my younger brother, 60 00:04:28.439 --> 00:04:30.839 A couple of years ago, said, you know that Lizzie 61 00:04:30.839 --> 00:04:33.199 Borden book that was your first true crime book, wasn't it? 62 00:04:33.240 --> 00:04:37.160 And I'd forgotten about that long ago. That's the first 63 00:04:37.199 --> 00:04:40.199 step of getting me into being interested in true crime. 64 00:04:41.480 --> 00:04:44.759 How did you get it interested in writing specifically? 65 00:04:46.720 --> 00:04:49.680 Words and reading have always been important in my family 66 00:04:49.759 --> 00:04:54.680 since I was young. I recall in first grade, first 67 00:04:54.759 --> 00:04:59.319 or second grade sitting on my bed reading some children's 68 00:04:59.319 --> 00:05:02.000 book that I got out of the library and reading 69 00:05:02.040 --> 00:05:06.079 about Beethoven and reading about Bach and a couple of 70 00:05:06.120 --> 00:05:10.480 other biographies written for children, and it always impressed me. 71 00:05:10.519 --> 00:05:14.240 But my parents were very big on encouraging reading. My 72 00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:19.720 parents helped me to have a broad vocabulary and be 73 00:05:20.680 --> 00:05:23.879 proud of my knowing how to use the correct tenses 74 00:05:23.879 --> 00:05:26.800 with different words. My parents were always correcting me when 75 00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:30.879 I made a mistake. I guess through high school and 76 00:05:30.959 --> 00:05:33.079 college and grad school, I did a lot of writing. 77 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:36.279 I never saw myself as a writer, but the more 78 00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:39.759 I got into the Zodiac case, the more I realized, 79 00:05:39.800 --> 00:05:42.040 you know, i'd really like to write, I would really 80 00:05:42.120 --> 00:05:45.879 like to get out my thoughts and my research. I 81 00:05:45.879 --> 00:05:47.839 guess that's how I got into it and there's a 82 00:05:47.879 --> 00:05:51.759 certain amount of permanence. When you write a book, it 83 00:05:51.879 --> 00:05:55.959 lives long past, it leaves a legacy behind, and so 84 00:05:56.360 --> 00:05:59.879 that's I find that exciting as well. 85 00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:03.759 Your first vocation, though, was not writing, and so tell 86 00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:07.040 us what you gravitated towards and went to college for, 87 00:06:07.839 --> 00:06:12.519 and then tell us about how you evolved into being 88 00:06:12.519 --> 00:06:12.920 a writer. 89 00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:17.120 Yeah, kind of a long story. I attempt to document 90 00:06:17.160 --> 00:06:19.959 that in my book. I started out college and the 91 00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:24.800 engineering department. My father was graduated as an engineer, and 92 00:06:24.959 --> 00:06:27.759 I love my maths and sciences, so that's what I 93 00:06:27.879 --> 00:06:30.399 enrolled in. But a year and a half later, I 94 00:06:30.439 --> 00:06:35.319 switched my major to theology to study the Bible and 95 00:06:35.079 --> 00:06:37.199 the things of God, and I ended up going to 96 00:06:37.240 --> 00:06:41.759 seminary and being a pastor for eleven years. And you know, 97 00:06:41.879 --> 00:06:45.079 like every other pastor, I made the career change from 98 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:50.040 ministry to true crime writing. I'm joking. Of course, a 99 00:06:50.040 --> 00:06:52.480 lot of people don't understand the switch I made, but 100 00:06:53.319 --> 00:06:57.040 true crime writing, I think there are a lot of similarities. 101 00:06:57.079 --> 00:07:03.360 I'm fascinated with people, I'm fascinated with and particularly with mysteries. 102 00:07:03.600 --> 00:07:06.439 I'm fascinated with getting it the truth. And how do 103 00:07:06.519 --> 00:07:09.959 you know what is true, what is not true, who 104 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:14.040 is believable, who is not believable, what writings are credible, 105 00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:17.680 what writings are not credible, and all of that kind 106 00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:21.360 of fit together in the context of dealing with other 107 00:07:21.399 --> 00:07:25.959 people with respect to true crime. I'm really fascinated with 108 00:07:26.040 --> 00:07:31.120 the psychological aberration, the criminally insane, the people who choose 109 00:07:31.160 --> 00:07:34.800 the life of crime. That as well as a fascination 110 00:07:34.920 --> 00:07:38.240 with history, and it all kind of drew me into 111 00:07:38.279 --> 00:07:38.839 true crime. 112 00:07:40.199 --> 00:07:45.079 You go from Toronto to Michigan to and also have 113 00:07:45.160 --> 00:07:49.160 an interest in true crime and collection of true crime books. 114 00:07:49.800 --> 00:07:53.519 Lizzie Bordens burned that interest. But how is it that 115 00:07:53.639 --> 00:07:57.160 you come to hear for the first time about the 116 00:07:57.240 --> 00:07:58.120 Zodiac case? 117 00:07:59.480 --> 00:08:01.839 First heard about it when I was in grad school 118 00:08:01.879 --> 00:08:05.399 in Michigan. A guy I was living with in my house. 119 00:08:05.879 --> 00:08:08.959 We were talking about true crime books and he said, well, 120 00:08:09.000 --> 00:08:11.279 have you heard about the Zodiac? And I had never 121 00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:13.399 heard of it before night, so I told him and 122 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:15.560 he started to tell me a bit about it, and 123 00:08:15.600 --> 00:08:18.079 I got frustrated because I had just returned from an 124 00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:21.399 internship in California. I had lived in the Bay Area 125 00:08:21.480 --> 00:08:24.399 for nine months, and this was in eighty six and 126 00:08:24.439 --> 00:08:28.959 eighty seven, and nobody mentioned the Zodiac to me, and 127 00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:32.879 I guess being working for a church, people assumed I 128 00:08:32.960 --> 00:08:35.600 wasn't interested in it or it was not a hot 129 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:37.799 topic in the Bay Area at that time, even though 130 00:08:37.799 --> 00:08:41.679 I talked to thousands of people over those nine months, 131 00:08:42.679 --> 00:08:45.120 so I heard absolutely nothing about it. But as I 132 00:08:45.159 --> 00:08:50.159 read Gracemith's book on it soon after talking to my housemate, 133 00:08:50.279 --> 00:08:53.159 I just got absolutely fascinated with the story. I knew 134 00:08:53.159 --> 00:08:57.240 all the places, and it fascinated me that this story 135 00:08:57.360 --> 00:09:00.480 was never was never resolved. Most of the true crime 136 00:09:00.519 --> 00:09:03.120 I was reading at the time was all about criminals 137 00:09:03.159 --> 00:09:07.039 who had been caught, and the books about them included 138 00:09:07.080 --> 00:09:11.159 a trial and what they were sentenced to. This one, 139 00:09:11.320 --> 00:09:14.480 the Zodiac case, does not have an ending, and in 140 00:09:14.519 --> 00:09:16.039 some sense that's very frustrating. 141 00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:21.799 And you say that this book by Robert Graysmith really 142 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:24.840 changed your life in many ways. 143 00:09:25.679 --> 00:09:29.879 Yeah, not immediately. I didn't realize how much the story 144 00:09:29.879 --> 00:09:32.600 would stick with me over the years, but the story 145 00:09:32.679 --> 00:09:36.279 kept re emerging in my life through documentaries on TV 146 00:09:36.679 --> 00:09:40.759 or individuals on the Internet, including groups of people who 147 00:09:40.799 --> 00:09:43.639 started studying the case and were fascinated by the case. 148 00:09:44.200 --> 00:09:47.080 When I bought my first desktop computer back in the 149 00:09:47.159 --> 00:09:50.879 nineteen nineties. I was looking around the internet and found 150 00:09:50.960 --> 00:09:54.200 myself on a couple of different Zodiac websites and was 151 00:09:54.960 --> 00:09:58.679 quite interested that there were people discussing the case, but 152 00:09:58.759 --> 00:10:01.000 also that most of the people we were discussing the 153 00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:04.759 case didn't think Arthur Lee Allen was responsible for the killings. 154 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:08.919 And if you read Gracemith's book, you kind of come 155 00:10:08.960 --> 00:10:11.919 to that conclusion that it was Arthur Lee Allen because 156 00:10:11.919 --> 00:10:13.759 of the way he shapes the material, the way he 157 00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:17.080 tells the story. And so I began to study it 158 00:10:17.120 --> 00:10:21.720 myself and find out that, yeah, Arthur Lee Allen really 159 00:10:21.720 --> 00:10:24.200 does not fit the type of person that we are 160 00:10:24.279 --> 00:10:27.600 looking for as the Zodiac, and even today a lot 161 00:10:27.679 --> 00:10:31.080 of people are convinced that he's responsible, but I am not. 162 00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:37.279 Now, before you become obsessed with the Zodiac you do 163 00:10:37.399 --> 00:10:40.720 have an interest in John Boney Ramsey case. What did 164 00:10:40.759 --> 00:10:44.519 you learn from that case? Again, another unsolved case in 165 00:10:44.559 --> 00:10:49.320 your application later looking at and being a student of Zodiac. 166 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:54.000 Right from getting my new desktop computer and getting online 167 00:10:54.039 --> 00:10:58.039 in nineteen ninety six, that Christmas saw the death of 168 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:01.159 John Bine Ramsey, and I was interested in the story. 169 00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:03.799 So I jumped on the computer and use one of 170 00:11:03.799 --> 00:11:06.200 the search engines to find out more information, and I 171 00:11:06.200 --> 00:11:08.759 found a group of people who were meeting I think 172 00:11:08.759 --> 00:11:11.519 it was a Yah Yahoo chat room, but I'm not positive. 173 00:11:12.559 --> 00:11:15.399 And I joined about twenty five other people who were 174 00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:19.120 discussing the case in real time, and that kind of 175 00:11:19.159 --> 00:11:21.919 blew my mind that we could be all over the 176 00:11:21.960 --> 00:11:24.919 world and here we were talking to each other. I 177 00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:27.559 know it sounds silly now because our whole lives are 178 00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:29.879 connected to the Internet, but at that time it was 179 00:11:30.200 --> 00:11:35.440 revolutionary and it fascinated me to be talking with other 180 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:38.159 people from all over the world and hearing different perspectives 181 00:11:38.159 --> 00:11:42.440 and disagreeing with people or agreeing with people digging up information. 182 00:11:43.159 --> 00:11:45.120 And I think that all played a part in my 183 00:11:45.200 --> 00:11:48.960 interest in the zodiac when that came back into my 184 00:11:49.039 --> 00:11:54.320 life about a decade later, I started doing the same 185 00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:56.159 thing with the Zodiac case. 186 00:11:58.600 --> 00:12:01.399 Now let's talk about you, because I'm a pastor, and 187 00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:07.919 you go through this seminary, but your passion for that changes, 188 00:12:08.840 --> 00:12:11.720 and then you get to let's talk about your first 189 00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:15.320 self published book and what you thought you might achieve 190 00:12:15.399 --> 00:12:18.039 with this book once it was written. The book was 191 00:12:18.039 --> 00:12:20.960 called Yes I Can Change. So tell us about this 192 00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:25.919 publishing of this book and Leaving Your Passion, which was 193 00:12:25.960 --> 00:12:26.600 a seminary. 194 00:12:28.279 --> 00:12:31.000 Well, yeah, my first book is self help book entitled 195 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:33.600 Yes I Can Change, And I would appreciate if you 196 00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:38.039 wouldn't read it. It's my early work and I'm not 197 00:12:38.200 --> 00:12:41.440 entirely proud of the level of writing that's in it, 198 00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:45.879 but it's a fascinating read. It's not that profound. It 199 00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:48.559 fit in well with my seminary work. Am I being 200 00:12:48.559 --> 00:12:52.360 a pastor because a lot of the perspectives that I 201 00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:55.320 bring out in the self help book, I can preach 202 00:12:55.360 --> 00:12:57.360 on and from the pulpit, and I can talk to 203 00:12:57.399 --> 00:13:03.759 other people about reality of change. Change is not change 204 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:08.519 is inevitable. Our world changes around us, we change our bodies, change, 205 00:13:08.600 --> 00:13:12.639 technology changes around us. So we can't live a life 206 00:13:12.679 --> 00:13:16.799 without change. And I think I've been around enough people 207 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:20.759 who are very traditional and who are resistant to change, 208 00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:25.399 and that kind of forced me to tackle that topic. 209 00:13:25.679 --> 00:13:28.960 How does change happen? How should change happen? And not 210 00:13:29.000 --> 00:13:32.399 all changes that happen are good changes? So I wrote 211 00:13:32.440 --> 00:13:37.480 that up relating to interpersonal change and technological change, and 212 00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:40.840 I published that in What I think two thousand and four, 213 00:13:42.200 --> 00:13:46.200 and then soon after that I became interested in studying 214 00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:48.679 true crime, in fact in promoting my self help book. 215 00:13:49.759 --> 00:13:52.039 Sales were not good and never have been that good 216 00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:55.399 for that book, but I was looking around for ways 217 00:13:55.440 --> 00:13:57.840 to promote it. Who would be interested in reading my 218 00:13:57.919 --> 00:14:01.519 book and who would benefit from a in their life? 219 00:14:01.559 --> 00:14:04.360 And I came up with this crazy idea, what if 220 00:14:04.360 --> 00:14:09.679 I write some criminals behind bars and tell them about 221 00:14:09.679 --> 00:14:11.799 my book and invite them to read it and offer 222 00:14:11.879 --> 00:14:14.960 to send them a copy. So I wrote to a 223 00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:22.559 couple dozen high profile killers and criminals behind bars, hoping 224 00:14:22.600 --> 00:14:24.879 that maybe they would write back to me. I wasn't 225 00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:27.399 sure that they actually would, but I ended up getting 226 00:14:27.399 --> 00:14:30.919 a back about a half a dozen responses from these letters, 227 00:14:31.720 --> 00:14:35.799 and the most startling one was from Charles Manson. Of 228 00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:38.240 all the people of that I wrote, I was expecting 229 00:14:38.519 --> 00:14:41.840 I had the least expectation that he would write me back. 230 00:14:42.759 --> 00:14:44.840 There was one point in his life where he was 231 00:14:45.240 --> 00:14:49.080 the He received more mail in prison than any other 232 00:14:49.159 --> 00:14:54.120 prison than any other inmate like he was. His mail 233 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:59.679 was delivered to him by the bagful. So I corresponded 234 00:14:59.720 --> 00:15:02.759 with him for a little bit and ended up collaborating 235 00:15:02.799 --> 00:15:06.200 with a man who was selled next to him, Willie Mendez, 236 00:15:06.759 --> 00:15:11.559 Germo Mendez. We wrote Charles Manson Behind Bars. 237 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:15.559 That's the crazy antics and the amazing revelations of America's 238 00:15:15.879 --> 00:15:16.759 icon of evil. 239 00:15:18.200 --> 00:15:21.120 Yes, and it's one book that I haven't been able 240 00:15:21.159 --> 00:15:23.720 to preach from the pulpit at this point, but people 241 00:15:23.840 --> 00:15:27.799 under people know that it fascinates me, and they accept 242 00:15:27.799 --> 00:15:32.240 me with all my idiosyncrasies. And then that book kind 243 00:15:32.240 --> 00:15:36.679 of reignited my passion for true crime and fascination with it. 244 00:15:37.399 --> 00:15:41.679 Around the same time, I started getting more interested in 245 00:15:41.720 --> 00:15:45.320 the Zodiac case once again. David Fincher's movie came out 246 00:15:45.320 --> 00:15:50.279 in two thousand and seven. A friend of mine was 247 00:15:50.360 --> 00:15:52.519 studying true crime, and I was able to say the 248 00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:55.720 same thing to him that my former housemates said to me. 249 00:15:55.799 --> 00:15:58.159 I said, have you heard of the Zodiac before? And 250 00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:03.799 he hadn't. Gain a dialogue with him, and he and 251 00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:07.840 I began to research together into the Zodiac case, and 252 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:10.200 that's how my writing evolved out of it. 253 00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:15.039 You say, you were a huge fan of the film Zodiac, 254 00:16:15.559 --> 00:16:19.360 But in the film Zodiac, they still point to Arthur 255 00:16:19.480 --> 00:16:20.399 Lee Allen, don't they. 256 00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:25.720 Yeah, Yeah, So there's a certain amount of bias. The 257 00:16:25.720 --> 00:16:29.399 movie is based on Gracemith's book, and Gracemith to this 258 00:16:29.559 --> 00:16:32.440 day is convinced that Arthur Lee Allen is responsible for 259 00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:35.440 the Zodiac crimes. But then once in a while he says, well, 260 00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:37.879 if it isn't him, it could be this, or it 261 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:41.200 must be something like this, or somebody like him, something 262 00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:45.480 like that. So I've always been fascinated. I'll read or 263 00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:48.480 watch anything about the Zodiac case, even if it's something 264 00:16:48.519 --> 00:16:52.080 that I disagree with. In fact, there's a Netflix special 265 00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:55.039 not too long ago that said there was no Zodiac. 266 00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:57.840 These are all disparate crimes that have nothing to do 267 00:16:57.879 --> 00:17:00.639 with one another, but some letter writer took credit for them. 268 00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:00.879 All. 269 00:17:01.240 --> 00:17:06.519 Oh fascinating, fascinating take don the case. Sure, not one 270 00:17:06.519 --> 00:17:11.680 that I know agree with, but it's a fascinating way 271 00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:12.680 to look at the information. 272 00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:17.720 So you talk about a conversation with a friend named Kevin. 273 00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:22.279 So let's start where it starts and then tell us 274 00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:24.759 how it grows from there. I mean, this does not 275 00:17:24.920 --> 00:17:30.920 happen overnight. Your sense of wanting to do this and 276 00:17:31.119 --> 00:17:34.960 your obsession with this doesn't happen overnight, So tell us 277 00:17:35.720 --> 00:17:39.640 how it originally happens, and that you get this spark 278 00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:43.960 and leads to what you describe as an obsession. 279 00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:47.519 Sure, Kevin de Weird, it's not his real name. He's 280 00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:50.480 a friend of mine and he's the one that I 281 00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:54.039 introduced the case to. And in talking with him, one 282 00:17:54.039 --> 00:17:56.839 of us said, you know, we got to get together 283 00:17:56.920 --> 00:17:59.200 over a cup of coffee and just discuss the case. 284 00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:03.160 It kind of a thirty thousand foot level. Neither of 285 00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:05.759 us had a good understanding of the case, the details 286 00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:08.880 of the case, and we thought, well, that's a great idea. 287 00:18:09.079 --> 00:18:12.079 So we went out had coffee and discussed the case. 288 00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:17.119 And that one coffee and I don't even remember exactly 289 00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:20.079 where it was that we went, but that became the 290 00:18:20.119 --> 00:18:23.759 first of many many coffees that we got together and 291 00:18:24.200 --> 00:18:29.279 met in different Starbucks, different coffee shops, different restaurants, and 292 00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:31.920 sometimes for three four hours at a time, we would 293 00:18:32.200 --> 00:18:35.559 wrestle through the case. We would go through the letters 294 00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:40.359 line by line, we read the research, the police, the 295 00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:43.839 police reports that have been released to the public, and 296 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:47.200 little by little we just we just ventured down that 297 00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:51.880 rabbit hole and got absolutely overwhelmed with obsession over the case. 298 00:18:53.720 --> 00:18:57.160 You say, right from the beginning, you had too, again 299 00:18:57.240 --> 00:19:04.119 maybe rudimentary, but important insight about the Zodiac, initially one 300 00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:08.599 about the library, and tell us about these two insights 301 00:19:08.599 --> 00:19:09.200 that you do have. 302 00:19:09.920 --> 00:19:12.160 Sure at the end of the first coffee that we had, 303 00:19:12.519 --> 00:19:15.359 we came away with two insights, and the first was 304 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:21.279 that the killer had some relationship with the library. Because 305 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:25.119 the first Riverside murder, which not everybody agrees is a 306 00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:28.079 Zodiac case, it's not even considered it a canonical attack, 307 00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:30.839 we came to believe that it was part of the 308 00:19:32.200 --> 00:19:35.599 work of the Zodiac. It took place outside of a library. 309 00:19:36.359 --> 00:19:38.839 And then you couple that with the fact that the 310 00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:44.759 letters that the Zodiac wrote make generous use of allusions 311 00:19:44.759 --> 00:19:48.359 and quotes to a lot of literature. This was not 312 00:19:48.519 --> 00:19:52.440 a somebody who dropped out a school at the age 313 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:56.000 of sixteen. This is somebody who'd had contact with literature 314 00:19:56.559 --> 00:19:59.680 and a good understanding of it. It makes reference to 315 00:20:01.160 --> 00:20:06.599 Richard Connolly's Most Dangerous Game, he quotes the Mikado, he 316 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:14.759 makes reference to the movie The Exorcist, and there's other potential. 317 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:18.400 Joseph Conrad seems to be somebody that he made reference 318 00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:22.799 to in his letters. So we realized that this guy 319 00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:26.599 is a connection to a library, whether he knew something 320 00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:31.000 about the Riverside library where that attack took place, he 321 00:20:31.079 --> 00:20:34.359 at least was somebody who was familiar with literature and books, 322 00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:39.319 and somebody who probably had a connection to some library 323 00:20:39.440 --> 00:20:42.720 or libraries in general, to have this store of knowledge 324 00:20:42.759 --> 00:20:48.440 and this ease with making quotes and illusions. And then 325 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:51.640 the second realization that we had is that this is 326 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:56.200 a guy who sits and writes, because a lot of 327 00:20:56.240 --> 00:20:59.599 his letters took a while to compose, and this isn't 328 00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:02.599 a guy who pulled out a sheet of paper while 329 00:21:02.599 --> 00:21:05.200 he was driving and made a couple of notes. It 330 00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:09.680 looked like his writing was very carefully done, and the 331 00:21:09.799 --> 00:21:14.000 four ciphers that he included, the four codes that he 332 00:21:14.079 --> 00:21:17.279 included within his letters, looked like somebody who spent some 333 00:21:17.400 --> 00:21:20.960 time at it. It doesn't necessarily mean that he was 334 00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:25.279 brilliant and that he was a code maker and code 335 00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:27.960 breaker by trade, but this is somebody who had spent 336 00:21:28.079 --> 00:21:32.039 time working at a desk on his letters and on 337 00:21:32.200 --> 00:21:36.680 the codes, and maybe for that reason alone, it kind 338 00:21:36.680 --> 00:21:39.599 of led us to wonder whether Arthur Lee Allen really 339 00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:43.519 was responsible. Because Arthur Lee Allen is this guy who, 340 00:21:44.440 --> 00:21:46.960 by all accounts, had a bit of a verbal diarrhea. 341 00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:50.279 He would talk, talk, talk to anybody about anything, and 342 00:21:50.759 --> 00:21:54.519 couldn't stop talking. Whereas we came to see from just 343 00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:56.559 from that first coffee that no, this is a guy 344 00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:59.680 who's a little bit more cerebral, a little quieter, or 345 00:21:59.720 --> 00:22:03.160 somebody who has a connection to a library and spends 346 00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:06.799 time sitting at a desk and writing and thinking or 347 00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:07.720 whatever he's doing. 348 00:22:09.799 --> 00:22:11.920 Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to hear 349 00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:17.720 these messages. Now, you say, somewhere in two thousand and seven, 350 00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:22.400 you took off the handbreak, as you write, resign yourself 351 00:22:23.799 --> 00:22:27.119 to allowing the obsession to overtake you and guide you 352 00:22:27.240 --> 00:22:31.119 wherever it led, and you realize that there was a 353 00:22:31.160 --> 00:22:34.559 good place to begin the research. So tell us the 354 00:22:34.599 --> 00:22:39.640 extent of the research. The thousand pages of FBI files 355 00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:42.880 available online. Tell us about the research that you endeavored 356 00:22:43.319 --> 00:22:44.599 in this obsession. 357 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:48.279 Wow, I tried to communicate that through the book as 358 00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:51.880 much as possible. And when you read my book, did 359 00:22:51.920 --> 00:22:54.799 you have any idea the depth of research that I 360 00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:57.759 had done in the case, Was it at all surprising 361 00:22:57.759 --> 00:23:03.480 to you? I wonder? Yes, did because I literally spent 362 00:23:03.559 --> 00:23:08.839 hours and did a lot of creative tasks, went to places, 363 00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:13.480 met people, talked to people, read the police reports cover 364 00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:17.960 to cover, often discussing the police reports. What did the 365 00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:20.839 officer mean when he wrote this? What did the officer 366 00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:22.880 was he trying to say this or was he trying 367 00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:27.119 to say that? All of that came into came into it. 368 00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:31.039 I even went to the different crime scenes and in 369 00:23:31.119 --> 00:23:35.200 my mind acted out the attacks as they happened. I 370 00:23:35.240 --> 00:23:38.079 pictured the zodiac coming upon the scene, and I pictured 371 00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:41.839 the victims being there and what was taking place during 372 00:23:41.880 --> 00:23:47.079 that interaction? What were the feelings, What were the attitudes 373 00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:51.079 that each of the participants brought to the scene, What 374 00:23:51.319 --> 00:23:55.240 happened minute by minute? How did it end up? Were 375 00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:59.799 the triggers going on and the different attack scenes, some 376 00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:03.240 of the we know more about than others. What precisely 377 00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:06.480 took place? Yeah, the more I thought about it, the 378 00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:08.960 more I came up with questions. Did it come down 379 00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:11.559 like this or did it come down like that? Did 380 00:24:11.559 --> 00:24:15.400 the killer know his victims? Did he meet up with 381 00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:17.319 them just because they were at the wrong place at 382 00:24:17.319 --> 00:24:21.359 the wrong time? Was this a targeted attack? Was the 383 00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:24.119 killer deciding he was going to kill at the time, 384 00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:26.519 or was it a last second decision that did he 385 00:24:26.519 --> 00:24:29.559 would pull out a gun? You know what? Exactly all happened, 386 00:24:30.200 --> 00:24:34.440 And so there came a point where there was nothing 387 00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:39.119 that I wasn't willing to do to gain an understanding 388 00:24:39.160 --> 00:24:41.279 of each of the attacks. And I went through the 389 00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:43.960 same thing with the letters. Kevin and I went through 390 00:24:43.960 --> 00:24:47.119 the letters line by line, sometimes word by word, and 391 00:24:47.160 --> 00:24:50.559 we'd have a fifteen minute discussion on one sentence of 392 00:24:50.599 --> 00:24:53.920 one of the letters, just because what does that line 393 00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:57.000 say about the person who would say that line, who 394 00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:00.200 would say it that way? And so we were kind 395 00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:03.200 of getting into the whole area of profiling. We were 396 00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:07.160 getting into the area of forensic linguistics, the use of 397 00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:09.440 language and what that says about the person. 398 00:25:12.279 --> 00:25:14.039 What were some of the things that you noticed in 399 00:25:14.119 --> 00:25:20.000 terms what you write about, missing letters, missing words, repeated words, 400 00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:21.160 and patterns. 401 00:25:22.839 --> 00:25:26.519