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Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekingana Show. Thomas, Hey,

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how are you done.

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Speaker 2: I'm doing very well. Thanks for hosting me.

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Speaker 1: Of course. Well, this is a subject that came out

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of a Twitter conversation, but it's a subject that I've

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talked about a lot in the past, and I know

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you have some very strong opinions on. So let's get

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into this. Let's talk about the police.

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Speaker 2: The thing to keep in mind is that modern policing

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it's it's it's as structured like as we conceptualize it

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here in the United States, is a subject of recent vintage.

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People seem to this idea. I mean, there's all kinds

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of mythologies are on the modern state that somewhat deliberately

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have been cultivated to try and seeing it in the teable,

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this idea that these features are perennial, like structurally, I

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mean as well as ethically, when they're not. So when

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you raise the issue with people that modern policing is

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kind of run its course and it's kind of being

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phased out, like people seem to think one of two things.

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If they don't know me and are particularly sophisticated on

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you know, political sociology and things like that they have

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this idea that I'm forwarding some some you know, some

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miner gift argument like I want the police to go

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away and they don't have a mandate. I'm not saying that.

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I mean that that whether they're true or not doesn't matter,

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or they think of suggesting that this kind of lump

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and revolt, however contrived and you know, cultivated by but

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by organized political interests, it's just going to be like,

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you know, like public frusture is going to be such

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that you know, police departments becomes so kind of gilded

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and defang verbially speaking, that they can no longer implement

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the mandate, that mandate that they've been granted. I'm not

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I'm not saying that either, Okay, Like what I'm saying

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is that in structural terms, this is something that's run

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its course, okay, And increasingly, police functions are going to

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continue to collapse and do what in the Postcold War

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era has been viewed as kind of military and general

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security functions. Police services are going to be increasingly privatized.

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You know, there's gonna be less and less of a

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distinction between the domains wherein armed force enjoys legitimacy, either

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conditional legitimacy or an absolute sovereign capacity. Okay, and this

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is inextricably bound up with the modern state as it

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exists today being really rather obsolete. Okay, But to understand too,

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like kind of what these exigencies are that are are

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presenting these kinds of challenges to police departments, particularly big

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city police forces. Not exclusively, it's not just a matter

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of like you know, post George Floyd sentiment and kind

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of political narratives like those narratives were able to take

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a rude on grounds the phenomenon I'm talking about. Okay,

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you know, and I think this is all very ill understood,

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but you think the point a lot that the American

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system like really mirrors the UK system, you know, politically,

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and was the father quite literally of a of modern

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policing was Robert Peel. He was also kind of the

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founder of the modern Conservative Party in Britain, Like the

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Tories existed before Peel's tenure as Prime minister, and he

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was he was Prime Minister twice, but he he kind

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of brought the party into the you know, into the

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end of the modern age in a lot of ways. Okay,

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And controlling populations at scale, particularly in a divided society.

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That's really kind of the conditions president for a modern

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police department. Okay, and make a mistake, the UK is

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a uniquely divided society and it always has been. Okay.

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That's one of many parallels between America and the UK.

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It's it's not just anglical and cultural foundations. You know,

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there's divisions in the UK that there's not in there

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weren't in in Germany when Germany was uh, you know,

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in that brief period it was, it was unified. But

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also with sovereign republic, there's there's there's institutionalized divisions there

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that that don't exist in France. Okay, And this this

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bears directly on on Peel's mandate and and why he

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proceeded the way he did and devising the first real

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urban police department. Peel was born into money. His father,

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uh was a career politician, but he'd made a fortune

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and textile manufacturing. So Peele and his whole family they

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were kind of insinuated into the They both had like

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one foot kind of in the old nobility. And I

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think I think Peele was a there was a there

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was a baronet or a barony in his name. But

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he also very much was part of the kind of

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nascent you know, industrial producer class, you know. And it's

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education from flipid that too, you know. He took a

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degree both in classics and in mathematics. He first entered

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the House of Commons as a very young guy, I

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think around twenty two years old, eighteen oh nine. But

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where he really kind of made his bones, as it were,

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as kind of a it's kind of a political manager

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and fixer. It was his home secretary, you know, in

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home secretary, especially in those days kind of at the

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zenith of the empire. It was a very important role,

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you know, and the mandate was very broad and it

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attracts not just ambitious men, but also a lot of

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a lot of men who had ideas about you know,

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the sociological nature and the mandate that the office carried

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with it, you know. And he started out as kind

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of a conventional old school Tory. Initially. He very much

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was behind the institutionalized discrimination against Catholics. He did a

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one eighty on that. And this wasn't just for cynical reasons,

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because otherwise he wouldn't have stuck to his guns and

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the way he did on these kinds of matters of

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equity and so and social matters. He sponsored the Catholic

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Relief Act of eighteen twenty eight, which for all practical

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purposes repealed was glocally known as the Test Act, which

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had banned Catholics from basically all manner of government service,

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as well as making sure they didn't get officers commissions

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in the British Army that would have put them in

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instead influence, you know, policy in the in the outer Empire.

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This is very institutionalized. Okay, that's not just something that

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Fanians say or that you know, kind of like old

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school like you know what remains like you know, the

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kind of vestigial cadre of old school labor party types

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who you know who who emphasized that is, you know,

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being like a key tenant of the Tories as being

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this this party sectarian bigotry. You know, it actually was.

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The UK was Rabbi Yani Catholic until the twentieth century.

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In a lot of ways they still are. Obviously, the

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situation has come amplex in ways it wasn't because you know,

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it's it's no longer a sovereign country and there's this

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kind of constellation of ethnicities that that don't have any

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meaningful you know, historical experience in the UK. But you know, incidentally,

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the reason why like in the UK, you know, cops

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are called Bobby's because you know of Robert Peel and

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also they're called Peelers, which is interesting. I think there's

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you know, uh, the former kind of trees like like

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almost it just like a mascot role of the ladder,

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you know, kind of kind of suggests that they're ops,

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like you know, it's I think it's kind of telling

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it's doing us as in the English language that I

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think I'm a subtle and some people will allow. But

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you know, at the end of the day, what I'm

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getting is what is what what is peeals? What appeals

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kind of progressive ideas about you know, the treatment of Catholics.

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And to be clear too, nonconformist Protestants were included in

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in these in these test acts, and we're technically precluded

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from like many of the same roles and being available

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to a lot of the same benefits and institutions as

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catalyps were. But slowly but surely there were de fact

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when the the jury exceptions carved out, particularly as a

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situation in Ireland deteriorated. But you know, there was a

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the law really from from the time of of like

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the English Reformation, you know, until kind of the end

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of the nineteenth century, like in every way it was

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tailored to kind of guarantee that this like Anglican hegemony,

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you know, like culturally, economically, like in every conceivable way.

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Speaker 1: Okay, can I let me interrupt. Yes, were the Jews

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included in US?

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Speaker 2: Yes, But it was complicated because like it wasn't like

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a lot of it was unsaid and in the case

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of the Jews, and it's not like there was some party.

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It's not like there was some like formal revolutionary cadre

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that was like a Jewish fraternal organization that that also

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you know, had the power to kind of like impact

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like legislation in the commons. Like there was defect though,

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but this also that even that wasn't as deep as

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people think. Before the white thing, before the twentieth century,

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it was just kind of like a non factor. That's

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not like this Israeli became the Prime Minister like Grayat did.

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Disraeli was he wasn't like Kissinger in terms of his

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personality or in terms of his values, but uh, he

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was kind of the Jewish Londoner who it sort of

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shed his ethnosectarian skin in real ways, he wasn't just

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some morno, you know. But that's a whole different issue,

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and the way that was dealt with was a whole

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different body of like custom and things that that didn't

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have to do with you know, Christian sectarianism. It's it's

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a totally iron thing, and we get into that, but

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it's if we should do it in another series because

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it doesn't really bear on this. But the uh, the

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writing on the Wall and ultimately happened of course on

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the heels of World War One in Ireland, like Peel

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realized like there was gonna be a real problem here.

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It's kind of like perfect storm of an increasingly radical

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labor movement that was also increasingly mobilized, the threat of

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general strike at the core of the Empire, which in

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turn could touch off a sort of wildfire effect that

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would spread you know, the colored dominions, and on top

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of that, you know, an open cientarian revolt in Ireland

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and in London and in Liverpool and in these major

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urban centers in the UK. Proper like the British from islands,

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I mean Ireland, obvis was part of the UK then too,

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wherein there were you know, there were ghetto wise Catholics

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who you know, appreciably appreciable numbers of them. This this

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could have been a real bloodbath, figurative and literal. And

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it uh was a frailty that people were aware of,

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like men in government and you know, men insinuated not

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just into titled society type roles, but who actually had

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clout and power. You know, they realized that there was

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a real danger here and these people had to be

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brought into the fold and made, if not patriotic, made

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to believe in good faith terms, that they had enough

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of a stake in the enterprise that they wouldn't try

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to burn it down. And a modern police force is

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devised by Peel and as well as you know in America,

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like you know Peel's counterparts in the post reconstruction era.

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You know, they they had the same thing on their mind,

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you know, modern policing. It's it's not just it doesn't

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just owe to the peculiar exigencies of having to manage

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theretofore you know, on uh, unthinkably highly scaled and complex

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urban environments, which you know, basically how is you know,

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one hundreds of thousands or millions of workers that staff

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the national economy. Like the way to manage that sociologically

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and politically, and the way to suppress the instincts to

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revolutionary violence. They're you know, intrinsic to these populations and

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the conditions they find themselves. They were pried very delicate balancing,

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and you couldn't just treat these people, you know, like

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uh like one might you know, Cooley's revolting in in

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in India or something like politically aside of the fact

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you don't do that anyway, you know, if if you

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live in you know, if you live in like a

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Western society of the era, but it's also politically it

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would not have been tenable, you know. You know, for

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contexts prior to that, in lieu of a police department,

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you know, there were night watchmen going back to the

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medieval period who quite literally post up you know, when

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the when the town gates were closed, to keep watch

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out for marauders or for military enemies, or or for fires,

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you know, literally firewatch. And that was you know, essentially

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a communitarian volunteer role for a younger men. I mean,

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there was some kind of stipend and compensation of a

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nominal sort, but you know, it was basically derivative of

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a communitarian impulse. And in the case of of the court,

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if there was a wanted man, you know, before the

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King's bench or in America, you know, before the you know,

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who was being hailed in the criminal court by the municipality.

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There were constables in bailiffs who were on duty full time,

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or you know, you deputize, you deputize a man of

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good standing, sometimes even a man who was a lawyer.

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You know, okay, you know, get a posse together and

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go fetch this bastard, you know, bring him here, like

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literally bring him into court. You know, there was so

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I mean that that that essentially took care of it.

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And you know, this idea that there's this kind of

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permanently mobilized armed force that u is insinuated into the

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community but also outside of it that literally patrols and

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in this kind of permanent you know and creates like

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a permanent visible presence like that didn't exist before. And

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one of the things that caused so many problems for

238
00:18:30,759 --> 00:18:34,839
the police is that a little over a century on

239
00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:42,839
into this like urban policing model, which not coincidentally was

240
00:18:43,559 --> 00:18:49,240
concominant with, you know, the War on drugs, the police

241
00:18:49,279 --> 00:18:53,599
became this They ceased to be this communitarian element, and

242
00:18:53,640 --> 00:19:01,680
they ceased to be this kind of symbolic sociological governm mechanism.

243
00:19:01,839 --> 00:19:08,519
Like they became this kind of secretive, hostile element that

244
00:19:08,759 --> 00:19:12,400
cultivated its own alienage visa via the community that it

245
00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:17,440
was responsible for regulating, you know, and this wasn't some

246
00:19:17,519 --> 00:19:22,640
conspiracy we're getting all out of ourselves. It owed the

247
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:28,880
realities of the Cold War. It owed you, you know,

248
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:34,000
the nature of criminality at scale in the late twentieth century.

249
00:19:35,519 --> 00:19:39,680
It owed the inability of social problems to be resolved

250
00:19:39,799 --> 00:19:50,599
by truly communitarian structures and as as authority, as official authority,

251
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:57,400
both localized as well as you know, in absolutely sovereign terms.

252
00:19:57,799 --> 00:20:00,039
You know, that would hand like a dominion over the

253
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:08,799
entire entirety and territorial territorial space of the country. You know,

254
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,599
they they didn't know what to do about these things,

255
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:18,640
so their fallback was on this enforcement mechanism that had

256
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:23,839
the widest and the deepest mandate. Proverbially speaking, you know,

257
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,720
to regulate human behavior and conduct at scale, and to

258
00:20:27,759 --> 00:20:32,599
bring to bear punitive sanctions on people who were unwilling

259
00:20:32,599 --> 00:20:40,039
to comply with these edicts, be them like moral or

260
00:20:40,079 --> 00:20:45,119
pragmatic or both. And that creates kind of a perfect

261
00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:49,559
store of hostilities, you know. But we're not quite there yet,

262
00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:56,519
but we'll get there as this goes on. To take

263
00:20:56,559 --> 00:21:00,079
it back from that, to be clear too about the

264
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:07,440
test Acts and these laws governing the rights of peoples

265
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:12,519
owing to their sectarian confession. This wasn't just superficial, and

266
00:21:12,559 --> 00:21:14,920
it wasn't just something that wasn't really enforced except in

267
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:21,279
a capricious manner when the authorities saw fit to, you know,

268
00:21:22,079 --> 00:21:34,519
deprive somebody of of upward mobility for some discreete political reason,

269
00:21:34,559 --> 00:21:37,440
going to emergent crisis or something. I mean, this was

270
00:21:37,519 --> 00:21:44,920
very much a staple of the sociological structure, you know,

271
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:53,640
and it basically people supported it. You know. If you

272
00:21:53,680 --> 00:22:02,039
weren't taking communion in the Anglican Church, you basically were

273
00:22:02,079 --> 00:22:06,640
excluded from public life, you know. And even if you

274
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:11,319
claimed uh to not be a practicing kid like, even

275
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,759
if you weren't if you were not actively engaged with

276
00:22:14,799 --> 00:22:16,519
the Anglican church, and if you did not have a

277
00:22:16,559 --> 00:22:19,559
family pedigree, whether you were rich or poor or neither,

278
00:22:21,839 --> 00:22:28,960
that demonstrably was was Anglican. You. You were reviewed as

279
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:34,839
a as an accusant, okay, and you were viewed as

280
00:22:34,839 --> 00:22:42,359
somebody who is not to be trusted, and your neighbors

281
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:44,960
would probably whisper that you were some kind of secret Fenian,

282
00:22:46,079 --> 00:22:49,640
even even if even if you were ethnically Irish, you know.

283
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:57,480
And again, like I said, nonconformists were included in these

284
00:22:57,519 --> 00:23:06,200
measures too, But the Indemnity Act of seventeen twenty seven

285
00:23:07,039 --> 00:23:12,880
alleviate some of these formal sanctions. But there's a there's

286
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,519
a complex history and kind of and like rather perverse

287
00:23:16,599 --> 00:23:23,119
history between Nonconformists and Anglicans that endoors really until recent

288
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,839
memory with the troubles. But that's I raised this because

289
00:23:26,839 --> 00:23:30,640
that's my own heritage, and like I don't mostly like

290
00:23:30,799 --> 00:23:33,559
Michael Jones. He's got to have it when he says Protestants,

291
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:38,319
he's talking about Anglicans, and I don't appreciate that, and

292
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,000
not sex not because that what something against Anglicans, but

293
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:49,759
because it's he's making a caricature of the issue, and

294
00:23:49,799 --> 00:23:53,559
you know, kind of employing an opportunity target and trying

295
00:23:53,559 --> 00:24:01,759
to cast us, you know, like like reformed people as

296
00:24:01,839 --> 00:24:06,079
a like with his like broad stroke, as if we're

297
00:24:09,519 --> 00:24:12,319
some kind of a junior version of the the traditional

298
00:24:13,759 --> 00:24:17,519
Norman aristocracy or something and that, and that's not remotely accurate.

299
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:26,720
That's why I emphasize that there's a guy, he's a

300
00:24:26,759 --> 00:24:33,920
really good story and his name is Jonathan Jonathan Jonathan

301
00:24:34,039 --> 00:24:39,480
Charles Douglas Clark, and he wrote a lot about I

302
00:24:39,519 --> 00:24:42,759
think he's still alive. He's not. He's not. I mean,

303
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:44,960
he's getting pretty old. I think he's in his seventies now.

304
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,160
But he was neither like a Whig historian nor like

305
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,720
one of these Marxists. So he rejected both the kind

306
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,319
of the kind of tory what we view. It was

307
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,920
kind of like the neo condish like progressive view of

308
00:24:58,079 --> 00:25:03,400
history and institutions as being this kind of mallible institutions,

309
00:25:04,319 --> 00:25:06,400
you know, in the in the Anglophone world, being the

310
00:25:06,519 --> 00:25:09,680
kinds of malleable things that you know, through this kind

311
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:14,119
of process of trial and error and ongoing enlightenment quite literally,

312
00:25:15,039 --> 00:25:18,960
you know, social conditions become more equitable in like the

313
00:25:19,079 --> 00:25:24,039
open society because of reality. He rejects that nonsense outright.

314
00:25:24,079 --> 00:25:28,720
But nor is he like one of these. He speaks

315
00:25:28,759 --> 00:25:32,559
a lot like Hobbsbow. I mean he he. I got

316
00:25:32,559 --> 00:25:35,799
into an argument, not not not a hostile or cumulic Blowe,

317
00:25:35,799 --> 00:25:37,119
but I got into an argument with somebody the other

318
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:43,640
day who credited Clerk with with coining the long century,

319
00:25:43,839 --> 00:25:48,279
that that terminology or that signified, and he did. He

320
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,799
did speak of the eighteenth century as the quote long

321
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,880
eighteenth century in similar terms that Hobsblomb described the nineteenth century.

322
00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:00,000
And undoubtedly they were familiar with each other's work products.

323
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:07,640
But you know, Clark wasn't really the Hegelian in the

324
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:12,720
terms that the hobbs Bomb was. But he obviously has

325
00:26:12,799 --> 00:26:20,240
like some of those conceptual prejudices. I don't say prejudices

326
00:26:20,279 --> 00:26:23,440
and punitive terms. I mean, that's just very much the

327
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,000
way he kind of his view of historical time is oriented,

328
00:26:27,599 --> 00:26:33,119
particularly as regards you know, mind as as the kind

329
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:37,079
of prime move on in the historical process. But it's

330
00:26:37,079 --> 00:26:43,559
o point was that Anglican aristocratic in gemony, that and

331
00:26:44,519 --> 00:26:49,960
the challenge is emergent to its hegemony. That's really the

332
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,480
way to understand everything of a power political nature. That

333
00:26:53,599 --> 00:26:58,079
happened within and without the United Kingdom, like really from

334
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,599
the from the time of the War three Kingdoms, you know,

335
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,920
up until like World War One. Okay, and I believe

336
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:13,119
he's correct, and an adequately deep reading of Hobbes with

337
00:27:13,279 --> 00:27:19,039
somebody like Carl Schmidt was very very very adroit we

338
00:27:20,039 --> 00:27:26,279
you know, conveyed in his writings not just in the

339
00:27:26,319 --> 00:27:28,559
concept of the political but in the stuff he wrote

340
00:27:28,559 --> 00:27:32,559
directly on Hobbes. He's very much making the same point,

341
00:27:32,599 --> 00:27:36,720
although obviously like his topical his topical emphasies, you know,

342
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:42,960
are are generally more focused on discrete features, you know,

343
00:27:43,039 --> 00:27:49,000
relating the kind of conceptual jurisprudness and things and and

344
00:27:49,079 --> 00:27:53,680
kind of theoretical foundations that you know are intrinsic to

345
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:57,440
the kind of British cultural mind you know, and uh

346
00:27:57,519 --> 00:28:00,559
and such that there is a British cultural mind. It's

347
00:28:00,759 --> 00:28:05,039
it's it's it's Anglican and aristocratic and you know, so

348
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:10,519
it's a real, it's a real phenomenon. Okay, and again too,

349
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:15,200
like that's why the emergence of a modern police element

350
00:28:15,279 --> 00:28:18,680
in the UK it was different than in in Germany,

351
00:28:19,839 --> 00:28:28,559
whereby by and large, uh, you know, the poets I

352
00:28:28,559 --> 00:28:32,559
have always been sort of like, uh, an internal security

353
00:28:32,599 --> 00:28:36,240
element that was very much part of the military. Okay,

354
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,799
that that doesn't just owe to the fact that, you know,

355
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,880
the modern German state is the house that Bismarck built,

356
00:28:45,079 --> 00:28:50,839
and that kind of conceptual perspective, especially visa the police

357
00:28:50,839 --> 00:28:53,039
thing is very Prussian. I mean, that's part of it.

358
00:28:53,079 --> 00:28:57,799
But I posit that that only became that that was

359
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,640
that only became a feature of the press and cultural

360
00:29:00,759 --> 00:29:05,119
mind on grounds the basic imaginety that was accomplished. Now granted,

361
00:29:05,319 --> 00:29:14,960
and yes, Germany's about one third Roman Catholic, but Bismarck's

362
00:29:15,039 --> 00:29:24,079
culture comp was tremendously effective and basically rendering the German

363
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:32,680
state and the civil service that constituted that state at

364
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,519
level of executive enforcement, the same thing of decision making

365
00:29:39,359 --> 00:29:44,559
had become very Protestant by design. And also sectarian challenges aside,

366
00:29:44,599 --> 00:29:49,160
and I don't minimize those. I mean Germany was literally

367
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,680
ground zero of the thirty years of war. This was

368
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:56,880
not like a minor thing, but there it was, despite

369
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:02,200
the regional attachments to German and despite you know the

370
00:30:02,359 --> 00:30:11,480
kind of several populations who are possessed of discrete cultural forms,

371
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,200
you know, like a Swabian is not a Prussian, is

372
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:19,119
not a Bavarian. But there is like a German identity,

373
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:23,039
like a Deutsche, like racial identity, if you will. There's

374
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:29,160
not a British race, Okay, there's constituent elements of Great Britain,

375
00:30:29,279 --> 00:30:33,039
but I nobody would argue to the contrary. I don't believe, okay.

376
00:30:34,039 --> 00:30:38,519
And that's fundamentally important. And that's one of the reasons

377
00:30:38,599 --> 00:30:42,359
why again it's it's not just it's not just some

378
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:51,599
sort of like anglophone conceptual bias abstracted from historical experience

379
00:30:51,759 --> 00:30:56,000
in the UK and America. One of the common strains

380
00:30:56,079 --> 00:30:59,920
that is facilitated this kind of enduring like a mere

381
00:31:01,079 --> 00:31:04,039
between the two political cultures, like always do both us

382
00:31:04,039 --> 00:31:10,960
and them being like intractive, we divided societies and I

383
00:31:11,079 --> 00:31:16,000
will I will die on that hill. Okay. Now bring

384
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:20,680
it back to Clark's kind of point and how it

385
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:27,240
relates to our discussion topically after about eighteen thirty or so,

386
00:31:29,799 --> 00:31:34,200
despite the fact that yeah, the vast majority of not

387
00:31:34,279 --> 00:31:40,519
just aristocrats but like upperly mobile middle class types in

388
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,759
England but also in the UK and and Ulster. Oh again,

389
00:31:43,799 --> 00:31:48,839
in Ulster, it's a little more complicated. People basically believed

390
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:54,240
in like not just the divine right of the British crown,

391
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,359
but you know, they believe their hereditary nobility was basically

392
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,480
doing its job historical terms. You know, they believe the

393
00:32:03,559 --> 00:32:08,319
kind of parameters of traditional authority from tennessa theseics on word,

394
00:32:09,039 --> 00:32:11,920
with the Anglican Church being the kind of theological and

395
00:32:12,119 --> 00:32:15,599
esthetical and cultural lynchpin of these things. They viewed that

396
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:23,880
is basically a good thing. Like nevertheless, there were political

397
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,440
variables that were very real that were undermining it, you know,

398
00:32:28,559 --> 00:32:30,759
and a lot of these a lot of these sociological

399
00:32:30,799 --> 00:32:35,799
and sociopolitical factors were the same things that ultimately were

400
00:32:37,359 --> 00:32:42,480
you know, culminated like the eighteen forty eight revolutions, you know,

401
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:49,440
which in turn also you know, kind of kicked off

402
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:54,519
the decades on the process whereby revolutionary communism kind of

403
00:32:54,519 --> 00:33:03,440
became the default perspective of the working classes, you know,

404
00:33:04,599 --> 00:33:12,279
locally moderated as it may have been, by traditional cultural

405
00:33:12,279 --> 00:33:19,119
practices or a vestigial attachment to the national or local

406
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,880
culture or just out now you know, like religious belief.

407
00:33:24,319 --> 00:33:29,240
You know that the fact remains that in every punctuated

408
00:33:29,279 --> 00:33:35,319
way there was cracks emerging within this structure that really

409
00:33:35,359 --> 00:33:40,720
for the preceding you know, seven, eight, seven or eighth

410
00:33:40,759 --> 00:33:45,640
centuries said had been essentially insurmountable, and such as threats

411
00:33:45,759 --> 00:33:50,759
to it were emergent, they were emerging from without, and

412
00:33:51,359 --> 00:34:02,599
the standard bears of these threat were characterized first and

413
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:09,079
foremost by their absolute alienage. Okay, so this changed everything.

414
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:18,079
But you know, and Peel the degree to which he

415
00:34:18,159 --> 00:34:22,360
quite literally drafted like a manifesto and like various policy

416
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:27,519
papers on what the mandate should be of an urban

417
00:34:27,559 --> 00:34:31,920
police department and what its relationships should be to the

418
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:36,960
judiciary and the executive and the Crown, but most importantly

419
00:34:37,039 --> 00:34:44,199
to the community that it served. He drafted some of

420
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:54,519
his allies in the government to produce this document known

421
00:34:54,519 --> 00:35:03,280
as the Royal Commission on Constabulary Forces. And the report

422
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,800
didn't just it wasn't just emergent as some kind of

423
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:14,960
last minute policy declaration to appease you know, the official

424
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:21,880
opposition or something like. There had been a serious committee

425
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:26,920
corral to evaluate exactly how this kind of nascent police

426
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,159
force I would work with the poor laws as they

427
00:35:30,199 --> 00:35:34,760
were called, you know, to what degree the police were,

428
00:35:35,519 --> 00:35:41,320
you know, to kind of like enforce these superficially paternalistic

429
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:53,440
but basically punitive, you know, legislative mandates which conferred upon

430
00:35:53,559 --> 00:35:58,159
the local executive the ability to quite literally like place

431
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,079
people under arrest for fratal services and put them in

432
00:36:01,199 --> 00:36:07,719
poor houses. You know. Peal was hyper aware of this potentiality,

433
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:11,559
and he basically said, like, we can't, we can't become

434
00:36:11,639 --> 00:36:15,440
the kind of like uniformed enemy like of of the

435
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:19,760
wretched and the poor, you know, or of the or

436
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,159
or of the work or or of the working classes.

437
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:24,840
You know. We can't just become to be viewed as

438
00:36:26,159 --> 00:36:31,159
this kind of like permanent uh cadre strike breakers or something.

439
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,079
So what he did was in addition to that, in

440
00:36:36,079 --> 00:36:43,719
addition to this committee that you know then, as as

441
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,440
I just mentioned from them of their findings and the

442
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:53,880
form of his broad based study to the commons, he

443
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:58,840
also drafted what came to be known as the Pelion Principles. Okay,

444
00:37:00,079 --> 00:37:02,800
I was like the rules one might have for like

445
00:37:03,039 --> 00:37:09,760
eating an orange or something, but it's not. The nine

446
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:17,519
Plion Principles were one to prevent crime and disorder as

447
00:37:17,559 --> 00:37:20,280
and this is key as an alternative to repression by

448
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:25,159
military force and as an alternative to recourse to increasingly

449
00:37:25,199 --> 00:37:31,519
severe punishment. So basically, you know, anything short of you know,

450
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,320
some kind of seventeen eighty nine situation, you don't just

451
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,840
send in the red coats, you know, to buttstroke and

452
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,719
bayonet people. Nor do you start you know, drawing and

453
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:47,039
quartering people in the public square like you know in

454
00:37:47,079 --> 00:37:51,000
the days of uh, you know, medieval rebellions or whatever.

455
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:57,280
You know, the people need to view the police forces

456
00:37:57,119 --> 00:38:01,280
as working you know, like with them, you know, towards

457
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:07,239
accomplishing an equitable peace. You know. The second Peelian principle

458
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,199
was that the power of the police to fulfill their

459
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:20,159
functions and duties is absolutely dependent on public approval of

460
00:38:20,199 --> 00:38:24,320
their existence, their actions and behavior in the course of

461
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:28,039
affecting custodial arrests, but also like an approval of their mandate.

462
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:35,159
You know, there's gotta be uh that there's got there

463
00:38:35,199 --> 00:38:38,559
there There's gotta be some sort of you know, direct

464
00:38:38,679 --> 00:38:44,400
uh connection between you know, these constituencies and how they're

465
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:48,719
represented and the commons and who represents them, you know,

466
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:52,719
and uh an ability of those representatives like directly impact

467
00:38:53,039 --> 00:38:57,199
you know what what what you know, what what priorities

468
00:38:57,199 --> 00:39:01,239
are as well as you know as well as the

469
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:05,639
kind of brass tacks of of how policing is conducted.

470
00:39:06,159 --> 00:39:08,960
You know, there's gotta be some kind of formal accountability,

471
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:17,039
you know, to recognize always the extent to which cooperation

472
00:39:17,159 --> 00:39:24,519
of the public must be secured, and how this diminishes

473
00:39:24,599 --> 00:39:28,199
and proportion in terms the necessity of the use of

474
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:34,480
physical force. And this is why traditionally, like British police

475
00:39:34,519 --> 00:39:38,039
don't pay heat. Okay, it's not because the British are naive.

476
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,000
It's not because they got a culture that wasn't steeped

477
00:39:41,039 --> 00:39:45,719
in violence. Nor is it like in old movies where

478
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:48,880
you know there's some that the British kind of don't

479
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:50,480
know what the hell to do if somebody shows up

480
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,400
with a gun. Like look, Actually, until recently firearms are

481
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,159
pretty ubiquitous in the UK, and until the later eighties

482
00:39:56,519 --> 00:39:58,840
you could procure a weapon as a private person without

483
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:03,960
a whole lot of hassle. The British sending the army

484
00:40:04,079 --> 00:40:06,719
if they need to kill somebody, okay, or if they

485
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:10,719
need to like raid the hood and do like a

486
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,320
bulls on parade thing and like break heads. The whole

487
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,800
point of like the Pelion and the police is that

488
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:24,559
they don't do that you know, you don't you know,

489
00:40:24,599 --> 00:40:31,199
you don't send you don't send a diplomatic element and

490
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:35,280
to negotiate with a gun on his hip. Okay, that

491
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,519
that's the ethos and this is key and that's kind

492
00:40:38,519 --> 00:40:43,679
of like where America parted ways with the Pelion concept

493
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,159
and what we'll get into like why that is probably

494
00:40:46,159 --> 00:40:52,679
not till part two though, but number five of the

495
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:58,119
pillion principles to seek and preserve public favor and partial

496
00:40:58,199 --> 00:41:03,039
service to law, independence of policy, and without regard to

497
00:41:03,079 --> 00:41:06,719
the justice or injustice of the substance of those laws,

498
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:13,719
but without pandering the public opinion. And uh, you know

499
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:21,239
in in the UK and historically you know how like

500
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,480
in Robinhood, like the big villain is the Sheriff of Nottingham.

501
00:41:25,679 --> 00:41:28,920
Like a sheriff didn't used to be like a local policeman,

502
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:33,159
but he did basically have like the executive power of

503
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:38,480
the county with you know that that like concentrated in

504
00:41:38,519 --> 00:41:43,159
his office. And there's a big concern that these rules

505
00:41:43,199 --> 00:41:47,039
can't become politicized that you're talking about, you know, the

506
00:41:47,079 --> 00:41:51,639
ability to affect custodial arrests and hail people into court,

507
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,559
you know, by way of like a permanent constabulary, like

508
00:41:54,599 --> 00:41:56,360
there had to be some kind of accountability, but it

509
00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:02,440
couldn't become just like another political office, you know, And

510
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:08,639
that's uh I stipilated in the early days, the UK

511
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:12,159
did a pretty good job of this, even if it's

512
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:15,159
you know, something that's not that they can't really be sustained,

513
00:42:16,039 --> 00:42:18,079
you know, and in the absence as we saw with

514
00:42:18,199 --> 00:42:22,119
mister Trump, regardless of anybody feels about Trump, the man,

515
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:24,519
you know, you got You've got a perfect example in

516
00:42:24,559 --> 00:42:27,239
the FBI, where it's like you have a law enforcement

517
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:31,519
agency with tremendous power whose mandate disappeared decades ago. It's like,

518
00:42:31,519 --> 00:42:34,280
what what do they become? Like they basically become this

519
00:42:36,159 --> 00:42:39,719
They become this kind of like hatchet for hire for

520
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:44,800
entrench political interests, and that's that's highly corrupting, you know,

521
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:50,719
aside from the fact that it's it's uncomstable that you know,

522
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:55,360
the taxpayer is expected to you know, continue to fund

523
00:42:55,400 --> 00:43:00,199
this apparatus, it's that you know that they're really is

524
00:43:00,199 --> 00:43:07,440
like a there really is a deleterious influence of a

525
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:12,000
police organization that has become like especially owing to you know,

526
00:43:12,039 --> 00:43:14,679
the the evaporation of its mandate has become really nothing

527
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:22,280
more than a a a cipher for you know, for

528
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:30,159
political right, for political capture. The six plion principle is

529
00:43:30,159 --> 00:43:32,960
to use physical for us only when the exercise of persuasion,

530
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:37,360
advice and warning is found to be insufficient. And again too,

531
00:43:39,079 --> 00:43:40,800
I know it's a lot of people and and like

532
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:45,679
a fair amount of of flat foots like follow my content.

533
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:48,360
We'll just we'll just fine. I was kind of surprised,

534
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:54,239
excuse me to discover that. But uh, I hear police

535
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:57,320
a lot, you know, talk about how like well, you know,

536
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:03,079
the British policing broke as fuck. They you know, they

537
00:44:03,119 --> 00:44:05,880
they're too averse to force. And maybe they are. I'm

538
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,639
not I'm not like weighing in on that in absolute terms,

539
00:44:08,679 --> 00:44:13,480
but it's something that precludes the kind of current totally

540
00:44:13,559 --> 00:44:18,639
dysfunctional kind of culture of police thing like post Floyd,

541
00:44:20,199 --> 00:44:24,199
post the political theater, you know, post political theater promised

542
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:27,679
one on the Floyd incident. It it just goes back to,

543
00:44:28,559 --> 00:44:33,360
you know, literally an inception. And that's one of the

544
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:40,760
reasons why Operation Banner played out the way that it did,

545
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,559
you know, And we'll get into some of that. I

546
00:44:45,559 --> 00:44:47,000
don't I don't want to turn this into the discussion

547
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:50,480
about the troubles because it's outside the scope. But there

548
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:53,039
are aspects that are relevant to the discussion. But you know,

549
00:44:53,119 --> 00:44:59,000
my my point is people who view you know, partake,

550
00:44:59,039 --> 00:45:00,840
I mean, there's a going going on here and I

551
00:45:01,039 --> 00:45:03,760
don't want to I don't want to get into the

552
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,920
topic here knose averse to the topic although it's quite unpleasant,

553
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:11,880
but because that's how it's at the scope discussion of

554
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:16,440
the grooming gangs and and and sexual assault of vulnerable people,

555
00:45:16,519 --> 00:45:21,239
particularly young girls and kids by by these hostile like

556
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:25,760
alien elements. The reason why that's happening, oh, is to

557
00:45:27,199 --> 00:45:32,480
negatively political factors of you know, the post Nuremberg era.

558
00:45:34,159 --> 00:45:36,840
That that that doesn't owe to like the bridge police

559
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:41,239
being in you know, unreasonably aversive force or something. But

560
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:47,559
instances where there is on display of comparative reluctance, you know,

561
00:45:47,639 --> 00:45:53,280
to apply deadly force or to go in heavy as

562
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:59,360
people think of it in terms of police work, you know,

563
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:04,280
in a ing less lethal measures. That that that's a

564
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:11,480
different thing and it precedes you know, the current era,

565
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:21,079
and it's it's ideological shiles and things. The last uh,

566
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:24,719
the last few are kind of brass tech stuff. The

567
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:28,960
last few of the Peler principles of accountability, but the

568
00:46:29,079 --> 00:46:32,400
key one is to uh is quote to maintain in

569
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:36,159
all times of relationship with the public because reality to

570
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:38,800
the historical tradition that the police are the public and

571
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:44,320
the public are the police. Community policing that phraseology as

572
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:49,599
well as the ethos that underlies it as a direct

573
00:46:49,639 --> 00:46:56,159
import from the United Kingdom, and it's essential. Like regardless

574
00:46:56,159 --> 00:46:57,920
of kind of how you fall on the matter of

575
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:02,320
what pass is good policing or like, that's not important.

576
00:47:03,159 --> 00:47:05,079
I mean it's important, but I mean for purposes of

577
00:47:05,119 --> 00:47:12,880
this particular aspect of the discussion, there does need to

578
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:15,920
be like a communitarian aspect to the police. Otherwise it's

579
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:20,320
not workable. And honestly, that is that is the future

580
00:47:21,199 --> 00:47:25,800
as the process that we talked about at the top

581
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:33,000
of the hour, you know, kinda emerges in earnest and

582
00:47:33,119 --> 00:47:38,519
policing becomes truly a localized function once again. That that

583
00:47:38,679 --> 00:47:42,719
that's that's essential to local sovereignty and and essentially the

584
00:47:43,199 --> 00:47:46,079
maintenance of i've anything approaching law and order. And I

585
00:47:46,159 --> 00:47:50,519
made the point again and again you're gonna see moving forward,

586
00:47:51,639 --> 00:47:53,639
there's not gonna be I mean, I realized I'm dating

587
00:47:53,639 --> 00:47:56,320
myself with this reference. But there's I do not foresee

588
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:59,679
like a Thomas Chitthham Civil War two scenario that people

589
00:47:59,679 --> 00:48:02,440
would be in nearly nineties. And I think him is

590
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:06,159
a great guy, and for context, he was writing about

591
00:48:06,159 --> 00:48:08,559
this stuff in the wake of things like the La riots,

592
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,679
where like some kind of open ross and Kreeg was

593
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:16,559
really like in the running, which is terrible. I do

594
00:48:16,679 --> 00:48:21,039
not see that happening at scale. What is happening, I mean,

595
00:48:21,079 --> 00:48:28,880
I mean it's already underway, is the kind of secession

596
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:33,880
of discrete communities, some which are deliberate communities, some of

597
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:39,320
which have just kind of ossified around common cultural imperatives

598
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:45,400
and identitarian signifiers, just like owing to accident of you know,

599
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:54,960
historical developments and sociological realities. But as communities kind of

600
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:57,800
become more and more self contained, you know, like we've

601
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:02,360
talked about before, there's there's gonna be even greater and

602
00:49:02,559 --> 00:49:07,719
more layered complex interdependence of an economic and financial nature.

603
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:13,119
But politically people are seceeding. You know, You're gonna see

604
00:49:13,119 --> 00:49:15,639
communities that are like nine nine point nine percent Black,

605
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:17,880
that that are like nine nine point n a percent white.

606
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:20,599
You know that that are like the same as for

607
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:24,400
Raza or for like Easian people or other And similarly,

608
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:30,599
there's gonna be communities that owing either ideological commitment or

609
00:49:31,519 --> 00:49:35,920
inability or unwillingness to establish you know, a deliberate living

610
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:38,800
pattern a relative scale. You know, there are gonna be

611
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:43,320
like mixed race communities that you know maybe or maybe

612
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:46,559
even you know, community such that are situated in the

613
00:49:46,559 --> 00:49:51,559
aforementioned according to the afrementioned criteria, like going to something

614
00:49:51,679 --> 00:49:59,159
like vestigial attachment to American civic myths. But regardless, like

615
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:01,840
any policing, it's gonna be a reflection in that community.

616
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:05,360
You're not gonna have like white or Spanish guys going

617
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:07,800
to police who live fifty miles away, like commuting in

618
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:10,800
is in black code to polices and like vice versa.

619
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:17,519
Like that's done, that's dead. You know, it's not the

620
00:50:17,599 --> 00:50:23,280
liabilities attendant to police work are just going to kind

621
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:28,679
of force those sorts of developments. But also people aren't

622
00:50:28,679 --> 00:50:32,199
gonna be willing to do the job anymore from a

623
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:43,480
position of communitarian alienage. Okay, But also again, you know,

624
00:50:43,679 --> 00:50:47,840
like what was the what was the purpose appeals model

625
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:55,000
for police which in turn, also had strong relevance here,

626
00:50:55,840 --> 00:51:00,639
you know, again owing to the basic social visions which

627
00:51:00,679 --> 00:51:06,599
characterized both societies. What kind of derailed that really was

628
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:11,239
uh really, it was kind of like the collapse of

629
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:15,320
uh the cities as a low guy as like worker Barris.

630
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:19,639
For the national economy, it was the Cold War. It

631
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:28,239
was uh, you know, the earliest uh birthpaygs of globalism

632
00:51:28,519 --> 00:51:31,440
when they really when they literally were like two systems

633
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:35,880
competing for global hegemony. That's really what underlay the war

634
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:39,079
on drugs. Like I watched the film drug Store Cowboy

635
00:51:39,079 --> 00:51:40,960
the other day, which is actually a really good film.

636
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:44,440
I really liked that movie. It's got Kelly Lynch, it's

637
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:48,800
got James Raemar, it's got Matt Dylan, it's got Weymous

638
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:52,320
Burrows and this weird cameo. But it's kind of a

639
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:55,679
it's very much kind of a black comedy, but it's

640
00:51:55,679 --> 00:51:59,760
also a serious treatment of of of of like narcotic addiction.

641
00:52:00,599 --> 00:52:03,079
And it's also kind of like a you know, like

642
00:52:03,119 --> 00:52:09,559
a crime movie. But Burrows plays this heroin and morphine

643
00:52:09,599 --> 00:52:14,320
addicted priest. It's kind of like the grand old man

644
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:20,199
of this community of addicts that's perpetually ripping and running,

645
00:52:21,519 --> 00:52:24,599
and he talks about the settings around nineteen seventy three,

646
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:28,000
and he's talking about, you know, I foresee a global

647
00:52:28,039 --> 00:52:32,239
police state apparatus premised on the moral panic over use

648
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:36,679
of narcotics. And yeah, there was an aspect to that,

649
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:41,199
but the War on drugs is peak like Cold War,

650
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:50,000
I think, Okay, and everything else aside. It totally and

651
00:52:50,039 --> 00:52:54,920
completely changed policing. It changed the way, it changed what's

652
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:59,719
considered evidence. It changed the way we conceptualize a criminal offense.

653
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:06,440
It changed the way the police view the community that

654
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:12,639
they are charged with regulating, and vice versa. It changed, uh,

655
00:53:14,079 --> 00:53:20,239
people's attitude towards violence and when the police have a

656
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:25,239
defensible mandate to apply it. I mean, it made the

657
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:28,159
role something other than what it had been there too,

658
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:40,559
for it was that much of a a categorical paradigm shift. Okay,

659
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:43,599
and the War on drugs is coming to an end. Two,

660
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:48,840
which is really really interesting and very important, you know,

661
00:53:50,159 --> 00:53:59,760
especially considering that agree to which you know, many aspects

662
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:05,679
of the health crisis are being driven by addiction. To two,

663
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:15,000
it's the obvious. But where uh, we're coming up on

664
00:54:15,039 --> 00:54:17,400
the hours we want to stop now, I'm sorry to

665
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:20,320
be a party pooper. But if I change gears now,

666
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:23,239
like I'll have to stop, like in the middle of

667
00:54:26,079 --> 00:54:30,119
a what I think is an important point, and I

668
00:54:30,119 --> 00:54:30,840
don't want to do that.

669
00:54:32,559 --> 00:54:35,280
Speaker 1: Then I will hold my questions until the next time

670
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:38,760
that we prefer.

671
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:40,280
Speaker 2: You can we can do them now if you want,

672
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:41,039
or we can wait.

673
00:54:41,639 --> 00:54:44,679
Speaker 1: Well, let me let me just throw one in there. Yeah, man,

674
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:48,920
it seems it seems like in the United States policing

675
00:54:50,039 --> 00:54:52,400
was taken over by the Irish. How did that happen?

676
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:57,800
Speaker 2: A few different ways, at least in Chicago. Bostin's a

677
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:03,199
bit different in Chicago, and they get into this and

678
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:06,159
Upton Sinclair's The Jungle, which is a great book, like

679
00:55:06,199 --> 00:55:11,239
even if even if you don't accept Sinclair's you know,

680
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:18,159
views on political economy and and and historical processes and things.

681
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:25,199
But when the Jungle opens up, there's still like a

682
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:31,639
vestigel like German American kind of civic elite in Chicago,

683
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:42,039
you know, but they're slipping. Basically, the first unions were

684
00:55:42,079 --> 00:55:46,639
Irish immigrants, and the first mob here was Irish, you know,

685
00:55:46,679 --> 00:55:49,519
the Compone gang like went to war basically with like

686
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:52,840
with with the Irish. You know that, I mean yeah,

687
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:54,559
it was the north side of the South, So I

688
00:55:54,639 --> 00:55:59,719
truly are different. And there wasn't some like rigid homogeneity

689
00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:03,039
but between the gangs. But it was basically like you know,

690
00:56:03,159 --> 00:56:06,559
Compone's Italians like going to war with the Irish. Okay,

691
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:12,199
So the Irish were running the street and the Irish

692
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:15,800
and you know, the Irish were running the the the

693
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:22,880
labored unions. So by consequence, you know, you had to

694
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:24,960
give the you had to give the Irish the police

695
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:28,320
department if you wanted to be able to regulate both

696
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:31,679
of those things, you know. And then from there, like

697
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:36,719
the Irish here they were able to capture they were

698
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:43,679
able to capture the the Synegap Paratus for you know,

699
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:49,639
like seventy years. The Irish are I'm not I'm not

700
00:56:49,679 --> 00:56:51,880
like transhing the Irish. I mean, depending on how you

701
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:55,480
define things like I am Irish, like I don't really.

702
00:56:56,639 --> 00:56:58,199
I think if you're not running cap like you're not

703
00:56:58,239 --> 00:57:01,119
really a petty. But my point is, I mean, I

704
00:57:01,159 --> 00:57:02,440
that's one of the reason I make fun of them

705
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:03,840
so much, just because it's kind of like an in

706
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:10,280
house rivalry. But I'm not banishing the Irish when I

707
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:14,599
say this, but there they are conspiratorial people, very tribal,

708
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:26,400
very uh, very in group focused, very prone to intrigues, okay,

709
00:57:26,639 --> 00:57:34,880
and the best way under the national economic schema. You

710
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:39,559
know that existed in earnest from the eighteen seventies until

711
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:47,639
you know, really until the Kennedy era. You know, they

712
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:53,960
that that was how you captured cloud, you know in

713
00:57:54,000 --> 00:58:01,239
the cities. So that that's how I you the guy.

714
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:03,440
I don't want to name drop him because I I

715
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:05,639
think he's retired now. I mean I think about this

716
00:58:05,639 --> 00:58:08,400
the other day, like I'm getting so old. But I

717
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:10,840
went to law school and I became buddies with them.

718
00:58:11,719 --> 00:58:14,719
Like when I went to law school, this guy named Corboy.

719
00:58:14,719 --> 00:58:17,880
He's this big shot like King of Torch type lawyer.

720
00:58:18,639 --> 00:58:22,639
He founded the scholarship at John Marshall Chicago. Or like

721
00:58:22,679 --> 00:58:26,159
any Chicago policeman or woman can like get a full

722
00:58:26,239 --> 00:58:29,719
ride if they can like get into John Marshall. So

723
00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:31,800
I got to know like some of these flat foots,

724
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:34,480
including the guy who went on to become a honch

725
00:58:34,559 --> 00:58:36,920
with a re turnover police. And I got to know

726
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:39,199
him pretty well because like he drive me home. I

727
00:58:39,199 --> 00:58:44,280
mean we we had class on the weekends. We were

728
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:47,880
both going to law school at night if he was

729
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:49,519
working as he was, he was working as a cop.

730
00:58:49,559 --> 00:58:52,440
Then he worked the West Side, you know, I was,

731
00:58:52,519 --> 00:58:54,880
I was working a couple of different jobs, including this gym

732
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:57,559
and Edgewater. But so you go to class at night

733
00:58:57,599 --> 00:59:00,599
and then on Saturday morning we had like lawyer ring skills.

734
00:59:00,639 --> 00:59:06,440
He was basically legal writing. And uh, he'd meet me

735
00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:13,000
at the Skoky Swifts l station and then we'd drive

736
00:59:13,199 --> 00:59:16,679
to the Loop and then every class he'd drive me back.

737
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:19,559
It's the Skogy Swift and then I'd go home to Evanston.

738
00:59:21,039 --> 00:59:22,719
So like I got to know him, went pretty well.

739
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:26,679
And he was the third generation cop. Like his brother

740
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:30,159
was a cop, his dad was a cop, his grandfather

741
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:34,119
been a cop, you know, and it's uh, it was interesting.

742
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:41,079
And and he married a lady who was very nice.

743
00:59:42,719 --> 00:59:44,840
And he'd met her at is U where a lot

744
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:46,559
of cops used to go to college. I don't know

745
00:59:46,599 --> 00:59:50,320
what today, but they're their police science program. It was

746
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:53,159
kind of a Feaer system for Chicago bed. But he

747
00:59:53,239 --> 00:59:55,480
married a lady and like her dad was a cop,

748
00:59:56,039 --> 01:00:02,679
you know. But at that point, being like, uh, I

749
01:00:03,079 --> 01:00:08,000
got some insight, uh, because I'm like a north Shore

750
01:00:08,079 --> 01:00:10,119
guy and so there was plenty of Irish around like

751
01:00:10,119 --> 01:00:14,440
where I grew up. But you know, they were they

752
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:18,360
weren't the kinds of guys who become policemen, you know, like, uh,

753
01:00:19,159 --> 01:00:21,440
they're the kinds of guys who were like lawyers and

754
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:24,400
stuff and like accountants like their dads. I mean, you know,

755
01:00:25,559 --> 01:00:27,880
the prosperous serious that's not some kind of like flex

756
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:30,480
and like my family because like my dad, like my

757
01:00:30,559 --> 01:00:32,920
dad's like a fucking genius, but he's like he's like

758
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:35,599
this academic guy and basically like a game theory guy.

759
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:38,599
We were kind of like we were like the poor people,

760
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:42,000
I'm sure, and like you guys you did it? Is

761
01:00:42,039 --> 01:00:44,559
this first guy I know, like helping me. You know,

762
01:00:44,599 --> 01:00:46,119
he's like, but don't do what he does. You won't

763
01:00:46,119 --> 01:00:49,440
we get any money. It's like like I want your opinion.

764
01:00:50,159 --> 01:00:52,920
But yeah, that was that was kind of a tangent man,

765
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:55,639
Sorry with it, and I forgive my I finally were

766
01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:58,639
being sick, man, but I still got some congestion. Forgive me.

767
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:01,039
I realized I don't sound well, So forgive me for.

768
01:01:01,039 --> 01:01:05,239
Speaker 1: It, no problem, uh, and drop some plugs and I'll

769
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:05,480
end this.

770
01:01:08,039 --> 01:01:12,480
Speaker 2: You'll end it. All. That's struck me as funny as sorry.

771
01:01:13,159 --> 01:01:16,320
I'm trying to be a cob. You can always find me.

772
01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:19,559
The best place to find me is on substick. I'm

773
01:01:19,559 --> 01:01:22,480
on hiatus from the pod until the first week in February,

774
01:01:23,079 --> 01:01:25,559
but there's other good stuff that's popping up there and

775
01:01:25,719 --> 01:01:27,599
I promise Season via the Pod is going to be

776
01:01:27,719 --> 01:01:33,559
lit and tremendous. It's real Thomas seven seven seven dot

777
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:38,039
substack dot com. My website is kind of a one

778
01:01:38,119 --> 01:01:43,679
stop location for a bunch of my content. It's number

779
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:48,800
seven h O M A S seven seven seven dot com.

780
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:54,159
I'm on social media at Capital r E A L

781
01:01:55,079 --> 01:01:59,960
Underscore number seven h O M A S seven seven

782
01:02:00,079 --> 01:02:04,559
and seven. I'm on Instagram, on Telegram. But yeah, there's

783
01:02:04,639 --> 01:02:09,360
big things on the horizon and I think I think

784
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:12,440
the subs will very much appreciate and approve of these things.

785
01:02:13,199 --> 01:02:16,280
And I want to give since I'm gonna thank everybody

786
01:02:16,719 --> 01:02:20,960
for supporting the brand. People have really we've gotten like

787
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:24,159
a glut of new subscribers lately. It's it's just great,

788
01:02:24,639 --> 01:02:27,679
you know, and your support makes this possible. I cannot

789
01:02:27,679 --> 01:02:31,519
thank you enough. And in a week I'm going to

790
01:02:31,559 --> 01:02:34,360
the inauguration and a bunch of the fellas and girls

791
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:37,000
are gonna be out there. I'm gonna I'm gonna stream

792
01:02:37,039 --> 01:02:41,159
from out there, and I'm gonna try and capture some

793
01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:44,280
worthwhile footage and b roles. So there's had to look

794
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:47,679
forward to also. But that's that's what I got, all.

795
01:02:47,639 --> 01:02:51,920
Speaker 1: Right, man, Till the next time, Thank you. I want

796
01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:55,480
to welcome everyone back to the Beginiana Show, Thomas Hey,

797
01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:58,960
part two of the police series. How you doing, man?

798
01:02:59,719 --> 01:03:02,280
Speaker 2: I don't well, thank you man. Yeah, I think it

799
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:09,840
was pretty Part one seemed to be pretty well received. People. Uh,

800
01:03:10,079 --> 01:03:12,159
I guess some of the subs were confused that the

801
01:03:12,159 --> 01:03:14,599
whole thing wasn't on YouTube. I don't know why. In

802
01:03:14,599 --> 01:03:16,639
the description it said it was just like a preview.

803
01:03:16,719 --> 01:03:21,280
Speaker 1: But let me address that real quick in the beginning

804
01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:25,960
of this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the videos are not going

805
01:03:26,039 --> 01:03:29,000
to be on YouTube, rumble bit shoot anymore. You get

806
01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:32,159
a preview. If you decided something you want to watch,

807
01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:34,559
you can go over to one of the podcast apps

808
01:03:34,559 --> 01:03:37,840
and listen to it. Yeah, just not knowing that I'm

809
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:39,079
not gonna put out video anymore.

810
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:42,360
Speaker 2: No, No, that makes perfect sense, man. And and yeah,

811
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:46,519
like I didn't think it was confusing or anything that's

812
01:03:46,559 --> 01:03:48,519
that seems like a perfectly reasonable way to do it.

813
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:52,280
So yeah, that's that's great.

814
01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:55,280
Speaker 1: If it's a particularly if it's a subject that I

815
01:03:55,280 --> 01:03:59,320
think we need video for, I'll release it for subscribers.

816
01:03:59,760 --> 01:04:02,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, no, that that that makes perfect sense.

817
01:04:02,360 --> 01:04:02,559
Speaker 1: Man.

818
01:04:02,679 --> 01:04:06,840
Speaker 2: Yeah no, I I wasn't confused by the whole thing,

819
01:04:06,920 --> 01:04:10,760
but a handful of people hit me up about it,

820
01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:18,400
so yeah, thanks for thanks for shouting it out. I think, uh,

821
01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:22,800
I think we finished it off last time talking about

822
01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:27,840
Robert Peel and like the Peel Principles and they you know,

823
01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:31,719
I emphasize that not to be pedantic or because I

824
01:04:31,840 --> 01:04:37,719
get excited about trivialities and the historical record. But again

825
01:04:37,760 --> 01:04:41,639
that agree to which policing really is a political phenomenon.

826
01:04:41,719 --> 01:04:45,960
It's not. It's it's not the necessity whereby, oh, the

827
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:48,559
police have always been here, you know, the police have

828
01:04:48,639 --> 01:04:51,760
existed for forty thousand years, like basically since man became

829
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:55,639
like sentient, and if they go away, there's anarchy. That's

830
01:04:55,679 --> 01:05:00,079
not why you have a police department, you know. And

831
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:04,239
the American model the reason why there's not like there's

832
01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:06,519
not like an American version of like the German order

833
01:05:06,559 --> 01:05:08,679
police that are like part of the National Guard or

834
01:05:08,679 --> 01:05:12,599
something is because there's a there's a strange situation in

835
01:05:12,599 --> 01:05:19,159
the UK and America and for clarity to like, you know,

836
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:22,320
Peel absolutely was the thought, wasn't is the father of

837
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:26,400
modern what's called like metropolitan policing. The first, the first

838
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:29,360
true police department came from Scotland. That's a get another

839
01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:33,960
thing that like the Scottish came up with in uh

840
01:05:35,679 --> 01:05:38,280
in this the City of Glasgow Police like the first

841
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:41,840
like the first professional police department. They were established my

842
01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:45,320
an Act of Parliament in eighteen hundred. I knew that,

843
01:05:45,519 --> 01:05:47,000
but some of the some of like the scot some

844
01:05:47,039 --> 01:05:49,320
of the Pikey's like shouted out and like what the

845
01:05:49,440 --> 01:05:56,480
fuck the first police was quoting the quotes. So there

846
01:05:56,480 --> 01:06:05,760
you go and Peel the London the London Metropolitan Police

847
01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:08,800
were created by the Peace the Peace Preservation Act of

848
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:13,840
eighteen fourteen and Peel essentially like drafted that in all

849
01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:16,719
but name. I don't know if he's credited as as

850
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:23,760
as the primary author, but yeah, for context in at

851
01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:30,960
the turn of the nineteenth century, London had it had

852
01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:34,039
four hundred fifty constables and service of the Kings or

853
01:06:34,079 --> 01:06:40,960
Queen's bench and forty hundred night watchmen, you know, and

854
01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:46,920
it was, uh, it wasn't within the contemplation that there'd

855
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:51,599
be like a permanent professional police force until Peel's reforms

856
01:06:51,639 --> 01:06:54,880
and when he became Home Secretary. That's really when it

857
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:58,679
began in earnest. But there were significance to us in

858
01:06:58,679 --> 01:07:05,800
this country. You know, everything kind of changed with the

859
01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:09,880
New Deal regime and subsequent and you know, one of

860
01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:12,800
the reasons why is people might age and older. Remember

861
01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:14,440
one of the reasons why it was a big deal

862
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:20,719
when the media kind of turned on LAPD and you know,

863
01:07:20,760 --> 01:07:23,199
when the Rodney King incident happened, and then like the

864
01:07:23,239 --> 01:07:26,360
subsequent you know, like race war came about. I'm not

865
01:07:26,440 --> 01:07:29,199
I'm not being shrill. I mean that there really was

866
01:07:29,519 --> 01:07:34,400
a race war. You know. I think people kind of

867
01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:38,280
confused William H. Parker with Darryl Gates. And I've noticed

868
01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:40,960
that too because a lot of these it's fading because

869
01:07:40,960 --> 01:07:46,400
like nobody takes woke shit seriously anymore. But at that

870
01:07:46,559 --> 01:07:48,840
at the peak of that garbage, like I think around

871
01:07:48,880 --> 01:07:53,039
like twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, there was a lot of these.

872
01:07:53,639 --> 01:07:56,480
There was a handful like history as a Los Angeles

873
01:07:56,519 --> 01:08:00,000
that made sound of a splash, and it kind of

874
01:08:00,079 --> 01:08:03,440
me you know, a kind of mainstream academ which is

875
01:08:03,599 --> 01:08:07,280
very midwood stuff. But there was this big effort to

876
01:08:07,360 --> 01:08:11,400
kind of slander William H. Parker, and I realized because

877
01:08:11,400 --> 01:08:13,320
I'm like, why they singling out Parker? And I'll get

878
01:08:13,360 --> 01:08:15,199
to why that's weird in a minute. But then I

879
01:08:15,239 --> 01:08:17,279
realized a lot of these people, I think Parker and

880
01:08:17,359 --> 01:08:21,560
Gates are the same guy. You know, in Gates, I

881
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:23,600
I think Gates was kind of an ugly guy, like

882
01:08:23,640 --> 01:08:25,439
not not for this, not for the reasons that a

883
01:08:25,479 --> 01:08:30,760
lot of left wingers do, but I you know, I

884
01:08:30,760 --> 01:08:33,319
I'll get into why I think that in a bit.

885
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:38,399
But but Parker, Parker was this big progressive, you know,

886
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:43,119
he and his He's kind of like the American Robert

887
01:08:43,239 --> 01:08:46,399
Peel in some ways, you know, because like policing before

888
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:52,399
the nineteen fifties, really in America, it's like corruption was

889
01:08:52,439 --> 01:08:54,560
kind of taken for granted, Like I mean, like graft

890
01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:57,079
like besy was understood, like in any big city you

891
01:08:57,079 --> 01:08:58,960
can like pay off the cops and get them off

892
01:08:58,960 --> 01:09:04,720
your back. It was very ad hoc. I think that

893
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:06,960
until I think I think in the nineteen forties, the

894
01:09:06,960 --> 01:09:10,159
city of Miami you had literally two sworn police officers,

895
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:16,000
you know, and even in cities where you had, you know,

896
01:09:16,039 --> 01:09:19,840
a more mobilized police force, like Chicago, it didn't. It

897
01:09:19,840 --> 01:09:21,840
didn't function the way like we think of it. They

898
01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:24,159
were kind of like de facto, like you know, union

899
01:09:24,159 --> 01:09:28,520
busters and strike breakers. You know, you kind of rely

900
01:09:28,680 --> 01:09:31,560
on police services and you could like pay them to

901
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:34,279
show up like Below Board, you know. And it was

902
01:09:34,319 --> 01:09:39,600
not in Gangs in New York, which I think is

903
01:09:39,600 --> 01:09:41,880
a really great film, although like a lot of people

904
01:09:41,920 --> 01:09:46,000
trash it for reasons I don't quite understand, but I

905
01:09:46,119 --> 01:09:48,520
like it for a lot of reasons. I mean, it's

906
01:09:48,560 --> 01:09:51,800
the only film that really deals with kind of the

907
01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:54,439
the web life was like in big northern cities during

908
01:09:54,439 --> 01:09:58,279
the War between the States. But Happy Jack, you know,

909
01:09:58,359 --> 01:10:03,079
the the thug, like the like the policeman played by

910
01:10:03,680 --> 01:10:06,159
John c Riley. He was like out there thugginghead like

911
01:10:06,359 --> 01:10:09,800
that was pretty realistic, like by all accounts, man like that.

912
01:10:09,720 --> 01:10:12,399
That's like what the police were like. You know.

913
01:10:12,560 --> 01:10:15,279
Speaker 1: There was a show I can't remember if it was

914
01:10:15,279 --> 01:10:18,840
on AMC or History, but it was. It only did

915
01:10:18,840 --> 01:10:21,760
two seasons it was called copper uh.

916
01:10:21,720 --> 01:10:24,079
Speaker 2: Huh, and it was I've never heard of it.

917
01:10:24,399 --> 01:10:27,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it was really good, and it really it

918
01:10:27,359 --> 01:10:30,760
did a good job of showing it would be late

919
01:10:30,760 --> 01:10:33,880
eighteen hundreds, eighteen eighties, eighteen nineties, and it did a

920
01:10:33,920 --> 01:10:37,319
really good job of showing just exactly that the whole

921
01:10:37,399 --> 01:10:42,159
John c Riley thing about how they were a lot

922
01:10:42,239 --> 01:10:45,119
of them were just thugs. A lot of them grew

923
01:10:45,199 --> 01:10:49,000
up thugs or they came back from the war and

924
01:10:49,079 --> 01:10:51,359
they had nothing else that they could do, and they

925
01:10:51,720 --> 01:10:54,199
they got thrown into into policing.

926
01:10:55,039 --> 01:10:57,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, they were good at strong arming people when they

927
01:10:57,239 --> 01:10:59,680
they and they yeah, and they were good with with

928
01:10:59,720 --> 01:11:04,119
the with a hand on which at nose days. I

929
01:11:04,119 --> 01:11:06,840
mean today, I'm still a terrible pistol shot. But these

930
01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:10,039
days it's a lot easier to stay Ontario the pistol

931
01:11:10,079 --> 01:11:12,399
than if you're using some old cold forty by peacemaker,

932
01:11:12,479 --> 01:11:14,479
you know, like even I mean, you know all that

933
01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:18,880
you're a gun guy. But but yes, that's you know,

934
01:11:18,920 --> 01:11:21,680
it's basically what the police were. It's not some that's

935
01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:24,279
not some progressive myth about you know, the bad guy

936
01:11:24,359 --> 01:11:26,359
police or something. I mean, it's a fact. But it

937
01:11:27,159 --> 01:11:31,039
but Parker, you know, all kinds of in every sense

938
01:11:31,119 --> 01:11:33,880
in public policy, you know, always making the point that

939
01:11:33,960 --> 01:11:37,439
sociology was a real discipline, like because of the Cold

940
01:11:37,479 --> 01:11:41,399
War and because of the managerial state. And Parker was

941
01:11:41,399 --> 01:11:43,479
one of these guys. I'll get to do his background

942
01:11:43,479 --> 01:11:47,319
in a minute. But in the nineteen fifties and sixties,

943
01:11:47,399 --> 01:11:51,000
like big city police chiefs or in Chicago police superintendent

944
01:11:51,079 --> 01:11:54,920
says we call them, they weren't just like career cops

945
01:11:54,920 --> 01:11:57,840
who you know, had like the ear of the mirror.

946
01:11:57,920 --> 01:12:01,159
I mean, there's definitely some of that, but this idea

947
01:12:01,359 --> 01:12:03,880
of you know, a cop needs to be some like

948
01:12:03,920 --> 01:12:10,319
college educated type with with you know, preferably with the

949
01:12:10,600 --> 01:12:13,600
with a kind of prestige degree, you know, which in

950
01:12:13,600 --> 01:12:16,600
those days supposed like a degree in sociology, your economics

951
01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:20,279
or like urban planning or something. You know, Like this

952
01:12:20,479 --> 01:12:22,720
was a big thing, you know, and that's one of

953
01:12:22,720 --> 01:12:27,479
the reasons why Parker didn't like a Hollywood But the

954
01:12:27,479 --> 01:12:30,520
reason why shows like Dragnet were a big deal, Like

955
01:12:30,600 --> 01:12:34,199
they worked with La PD, and Parker cultivated that, you know,

956
01:12:34,239 --> 01:12:36,640
I get La Confidential. How that guy played like Kevin

957
01:12:36,680 --> 01:12:39,920
Space even sends he's like always wearing h he's always

958
01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:43,239
wearing Italian suits, and he's got like manicured fingernails, and

959
01:12:43,279 --> 01:12:45,880
he's he's consulting with a guy he was supposed to

960
01:12:45,880 --> 01:12:49,199
be Jack Webb. I'm dragnet. Like that was the real thing,

961
01:12:49,479 --> 01:12:51,920
Like the Hollywood LA Cop Who knows who had them?

962
01:12:52,600 --> 01:12:54,760
You know, who's interface of the media in a way

963
01:12:54,800 --> 01:13:00,319
that that is essential kind of the public image, you know,

964
01:13:00,359 --> 01:13:02,800
like they had stuff all came from Parker and uh,

965
01:13:03,880 --> 01:13:06,079
you know that this was the l E PD was

966
01:13:06,119 --> 01:13:08,920
held out as like the model police force, and if

967
01:13:08,960 --> 01:13:12,439
you read the kind of stuff Parker said, it was

968
01:13:12,479 --> 01:13:14,960
all like the Peel principles. You know, it's like we're

969
01:13:14,960 --> 01:13:18,680
a community based police department. You know, like we're not here,

970
01:13:18,880 --> 01:13:22,239
you know, just to arrest people and and smack people up.

971
01:13:22,439 --> 01:13:25,720
You know, Uh, We're not just a bunch of stripe breakers.

972
01:13:25,760 --> 01:13:28,840
Like he was like this big progressive who like was

973
01:13:28,840 --> 01:13:32,319
was a who I mean, That's why it's weird they're

974
01:13:32,279 --> 01:13:34,399
trying to present him as this kind of like clansman

975
01:13:34,560 --> 01:13:37,439
type or something like, because he wasn't at all. He

976
01:13:37,479 --> 01:13:39,680
was like this big progressive and his big thing was

977
01:13:39,680 --> 01:13:45,039
that like the the La County sheriffs. The had a

978
01:13:45,079 --> 01:13:48,199
reputation as being kind of like very redneck issh and

979
01:13:48,319 --> 01:13:50,640
very rough, and his whole thing was like, we're not

980
01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:54,199
like those guys, you know. Uh, Parker like high he

981
01:13:54,279 --> 01:13:57,920
was into hiring blacks and uh and like mestizel people,

982
01:13:58,199 --> 01:14:01,039
you know, the police their own hoods and stuff like this.

983
01:14:01,279 --> 01:14:04,119
That was like this whole thing, you know, and like that.

984
01:14:04,359 --> 01:14:06,800
People might be like, well, that's just like police work,

985
01:14:07,039 --> 01:14:09,920
but yeah, that's why it's police work because of Parker.

986
01:14:10,239 --> 01:14:14,760
And Parker was falling back on this stuff from the

987
01:14:14,880 --> 01:14:19,000
UK because he was an educated guy and like most

988
01:14:19,039 --> 01:14:20,600
of these guys, you know, he came up through the

989
01:14:20,680 --> 01:14:23,680
service during the War two, like he'd been born in

990
01:14:23,840 --> 01:14:28,840
uh in the Dakotas and found his way to give

991
01:14:28,840 --> 01:14:32,840
me one second, my machine's freaking out there, we go. Yeah,

992
01:14:32,840 --> 01:14:35,239
he was born he was born in South Dakota and

993
01:14:35,279 --> 01:14:40,439
made his way uh in Deadwood, you know, which has

994
01:14:40,479 --> 01:14:45,960
like an auspicious heritage as regards law enforcement and stuff.

995
01:14:47,039 --> 01:14:50,560
And then he, uh, he made his way to southern

996
01:14:50,640 --> 01:14:54,119
California like a lot of like a lot of people

997
01:14:54,159 --> 01:14:57,640
did from that part of the country, including my paternal grandfather.

998
01:15:00,600 --> 01:15:06,640
His uh, his grandfather, William H. Parker, was a war hero.

999
01:15:06,760 --> 01:15:08,920
He fought up to the Union Army and in the

1000
01:15:08,920 --> 01:15:12,199
War between the States and later served in Congress. And

1001
01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:17,960
Parker was, uh, he was very Catholic, which obviously was unusual.

1002
01:15:18,039 --> 01:15:22,039
And in uh in like Los Angeles at the time,

1003
01:15:22,079 --> 01:15:25,000
which was which is kind of like a wasp it was.

1004
01:15:25,039 --> 01:15:26,119
It was a really it was kind of like a

1005
01:15:26,279 --> 01:15:29,000
wasp bread out like literally like rich waspy people. He

1006
01:15:29,159 --> 01:15:31,840
kind of settled it and those people like their their

1007
01:15:31,880 --> 01:15:34,520
descendants like still have a lot of cloud there, you know.

1008
01:15:35,720 --> 01:15:37,039
And and then and there was a lot of like

1009
01:15:37,079 --> 01:15:40,279
okies too, you know who like working in poor like

1010
01:15:40,319 --> 01:15:42,960
white folks. But you know, Parker was kind of outside

1011
01:15:42,960 --> 01:15:53,680
of that culture. But he uh he joined l A.

1012
01:15:53,800 --> 01:16:00,000
P d. And know, it was the eighteenth nine twenty,

1013
01:16:00,119 --> 01:16:04,000
he said, when he was going to law school, and

1014
01:16:04,039 --> 01:16:05,479
it's the idea was that it was just going to

1015
01:16:05,560 --> 01:16:07,239
like put him through school and it was like something

1016
01:16:07,239 --> 01:16:09,720
to do and like, you know, well during the course

1017
01:16:09,760 --> 01:16:12,079
of his studies and he said he could learn like,

1018
01:16:12,159 --> 01:16:14,319
you know, stuff about public policy or whatever. I'm at

1019
01:16:14,359 --> 01:16:20,159
the road in terms of functional application of the law,

1020
01:16:20,199 --> 01:16:23,840
you know, like in an executive role at street level.

1021
01:16:24,239 --> 01:16:28,760
But he decided every patch, the bar exam. He just

1022
01:16:28,840 --> 01:16:32,760
he decided to He decided to stay on is early

1023
01:16:33,439 --> 01:16:35,640
he early on, like he was a big advocate of

1024
01:16:35,720 --> 01:16:38,279
like a police the police union, which at that time,

1025
01:16:39,760 --> 01:16:41,840
I think the the New York and Chicago or paternal

1026
01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:45,760
or a police were already a thing. But like the

1027
01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:49,840
idea of public sector unions, I wouldn't gonna be wrong.

1028
01:16:49,920 --> 01:16:51,960
Like police work in them days was a lot different

1029
01:16:51,960 --> 01:16:54,119
than today, and like those guys actually did need some

1030
01:16:54,199 --> 01:16:58,560
kind of formal representation visa via the city council and stuff.

1031
01:16:58,560 --> 01:17:01,239
It's not it's not like ridiculous bullshit like I make

1032
01:17:01,279 --> 01:17:04,920
a teacher's union. But you know, public sector unions weren't

1033
01:17:04,920 --> 01:17:10,119
a thing, and uh back in those days in California,

1034
01:17:11,319 --> 01:17:13,920
I think throughout the state, so that there was any

1035
01:17:14,000 --> 01:17:18,840
kind of like cop representation, and in terms of organized labor,

1036
01:17:19,119 --> 01:17:22,600
it was generally like a police and firefighters union, and

1037
01:17:24,359 --> 01:17:27,760
that was that was his primary role. You know, he

1038
01:17:27,880 --> 01:17:31,359
wasn't mostly a beat cop, but he did. He took

1039
01:17:31,520 --> 01:17:36,119
leave to go fight in uh World War Two, and

1040
01:17:36,199 --> 01:17:40,399
he was in, UH he was in during combat. He

1041
01:17:40,520 --> 01:17:44,920
got a purple Heart for wounds that he received in Normandy,

1042
01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:50,359
and he'd been in uh, he'd been at the assault

1043
01:17:50,399 --> 01:17:54,960
in Sardinia, and because his background as a cop, they

1044
01:17:55,000 --> 01:17:58,520
put him. He was both in the role. It's kind

1045
01:17:58,520 --> 01:18:02,000
of like a counterinsurgency enter like in theater. He was

1046
01:18:02,079 --> 01:18:05,720
responsible for POWs and stuff and detention, as well as

1047
01:18:06,479 --> 01:18:11,399
you know, kind of policing, uh the ranks post occupation

1048
01:18:11,920 --> 01:18:17,840
in Munich and stuff. That's a uh, that's a resume.

1049
01:18:18,560 --> 01:18:22,960
I'm not trying to cast an ominous light on Parker,

1050
01:18:23,000 --> 01:18:27,079
but that's a resume. Not unlike John Burge, although Burge

1051
01:18:27,079 --> 01:18:30,640
I believe was engaged in Phoenix for raumsy stuff and

1052
01:18:30,720 --> 01:18:33,000
not for those that don't know, Burge was he was

1053
01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:36,880
a homicide police here in Chicago, very feared guy. His

1054
01:18:37,000 --> 01:18:42,439
name rang out and he he got indicted like years

1055
01:18:42,479 --> 01:18:47,119
after he retired from torturing suspects, procuring all these dubious

1056
01:18:47,159 --> 01:18:52,520
confessions that were procured under duress. But that agree to

1057
01:18:52,520 --> 01:18:55,479
what the military during like the draft era, you know,

1058
01:18:55,560 --> 01:19:01,920
and basically you know, World War One through and and

1059
01:19:02,119 --> 01:19:05,079
the relationship of LAPD to the Vietnam War particularly is

1060
01:19:05,159 --> 01:19:07,840
very interesting. Joseph Wamba gets into that. We'll talk a

1061
01:19:07,880 --> 01:19:12,039
little bit about Wamba. But during during the World War

1062
01:19:12,079 --> 01:19:14,680
two era, you know, like there was a glott of

1063
01:19:14,720 --> 01:19:19,680
guys who who'd uh, who'd been in in heavy action,

1064
01:19:19,800 --> 01:19:23,479
who became cops or guys like Parker who'd you know,

1065
01:19:23,880 --> 01:19:27,359
already been for an officers and then left, you know,

1066
01:19:27,399 --> 01:19:30,680
to leave, like you know, to join the service or

1067
01:19:30,720 --> 01:19:34,319
to be you know, satisfied their draft allegation or whatever.

1068
01:19:34,439 --> 01:19:41,479
But he got he got the war Cross. I'm not

1069
01:19:41,520 --> 01:19:43,680
even gonna try and pronounce it de croix, the GI

1070
01:19:44,079 --> 01:19:50,239
I think is what it's called. It's basically, uh, basically

1071
01:19:50,279 --> 01:19:55,439
the French equivalent of the war merit cross maintaining ordered

1072
01:19:55,439 --> 01:19:58,560
in the liberation of Paris. But out of the war,

1073
01:19:58,640 --> 01:20:01,399
he shot through the ranks, became one of the one

1074
01:20:01,399 --> 01:20:04,840
of the deputy chiefs, and by nineteen fifty he was

1075
01:20:05,960 --> 01:20:07,760
by the year nineteen fifty, like he was a big

1076
01:20:07,800 --> 01:20:13,119
shot and he he he's responsible for not just cleaning

1077
01:20:13,199 --> 01:20:16,520
up graft at street level, but you know, kind of

1078
01:20:16,560 --> 01:20:21,279
a insinuating la insulating lapd from like war to politics.

1079
01:20:21,640 --> 01:20:24,199
There's one of the reasons too. I like mafia guys

1080
01:20:24,279 --> 01:20:26,640
in the traditional sense, like couldn't really get a toe

1081
01:20:26,680 --> 01:20:29,880
hold in California, you know, like I I'm sorry to

1082
01:20:29,960 --> 01:20:34,399
keep citing a Hollywood movie as authoritative, but it draws

1083
01:20:34,479 --> 01:20:37,239
upon real stuff and some people are familiar with, you know,

1084
01:20:37,279 --> 01:20:40,079
like an LA Confidential, there's a scene where like Dudley

1085
01:20:40,399 --> 01:20:42,960
like Budd White, who's like isn'tforced her, you know, he's

1086
01:20:43,000 --> 01:20:47,680
like a goon police like they het word that he's

1087
01:20:47,680 --> 01:20:51,319
like East Coast mob guys are in Los Angeles for

1088
01:20:51,359 --> 01:20:54,680
some reason. So like Dudley has White in the goon

1089
01:20:54,760 --> 01:20:57,560
squad like Shanghai these dudes and like take them to

1090
01:20:58,399 --> 01:21:02,079
you know, take take them to some interrogation location and

1091
01:21:02,119 --> 01:21:04,359
like beat the fuck out of them. And then they

1092
01:21:04,359 --> 01:21:06,640
literally like put these guys like back on a train

1093
01:21:07,119 --> 01:21:11,960
going back east, like all like broken up and bang

1094
01:21:12,079 --> 01:21:15,560
up and battered. Like LAPD did stuff like that. And

1095
01:21:15,560 --> 01:21:18,039
that's one of the reasons Lava was always an open territory.

1096
01:21:18,520 --> 01:21:21,000
Like it's not just because the LAPD would literally fuck

1097
01:21:21,079 --> 01:21:23,880
your world up, you know if you were an outsider

1098
01:21:24,039 --> 01:21:28,600
trying to set up rackets there, but there really wasn't.

1099
01:21:29,319 --> 01:21:31,439
There wasn't like any ward boss you could go visit

1100
01:21:31,479 --> 01:21:34,319
in LA you know who if it didn't you know

1101
01:21:34,319 --> 01:21:36,560
who peeps be like, hey, I'm so and so, you know,

1102
01:21:37,560 --> 01:21:40,319
and my guy vouched for me, like let's do business.

1103
01:21:41,119 --> 01:21:43,000
And I mean you have like and you don't have

1104
01:21:43,039 --> 01:21:44,199
to you don't have just like you don't have the

1105
01:21:44,199 --> 01:21:46,439
same hood structure in La Man. I mean, yeah, it's

1106
01:21:46,479 --> 01:21:50,800
like like East La span is traditionally south central as black,

1107
01:21:51,439 --> 01:21:53,520
you know, and then you got like oki and white hoods.

1108
01:21:54,840 --> 01:21:56,760
But it's not like Chicago and New York. It's not

1109
01:21:56,800 --> 01:21:59,960
like there's like this like word system where you know,

1110
01:22:00,159 --> 01:22:04,840
you were were like bosses on from the ground up.

1111
01:22:04,960 --> 01:22:09,600
Is like how you got stuff done. So you know,

1112
01:22:09,720 --> 01:22:13,199
Parker kind of yeah, it's like okay, any man in

1113
01:22:13,239 --> 01:22:15,760
the airheads work cut out for him. But you know,

1114
01:22:15,840 --> 01:22:20,800
it's it's important to distinguish that Los Angeles was kind

1115
01:22:20,800 --> 01:22:23,159
of fertile grounds for a lot of this stuff and

1116
01:22:23,359 --> 01:22:28,560
a lot of this kind of social policy experimentation. That's

1117
01:22:28,600 --> 01:22:31,079
not to say it's a tabula rasa, but it's not

1118
01:22:31,119 --> 01:22:34,800
only that's one of reason too, Like, I mean, because

1119
01:22:34,800 --> 01:22:38,199
we just did a California series, this is one of

1120
01:22:38,239 --> 01:22:40,119
the reasons why people are kind of able to project

1121
01:22:40,199 --> 01:22:45,479
on to California, specifically Los Angeles. This kind of confabulated

1122
01:22:45,800 --> 01:22:49,159
narrative of its political heritage, you know, like one one

1123
01:22:49,199 --> 01:22:52,840
way or the other to try and shore up a

1124
01:22:52,880 --> 01:23:02,359
mandate of an ideological nature. But you know, the uh,

1125
01:23:02,640 --> 01:23:05,880
one of Parker's big things and gags later ran with

1126
01:23:05,920 --> 01:23:14,399
this will be a pretty very different reasons. But Parker, Uh,

1127
01:23:14,479 --> 01:23:22,680
Parker drammatically reduced the size of LAPD and he actually

1128
01:23:22,720 --> 01:23:26,960
militarized it in key ways, not in terms of its ethos,

1129
01:23:27,000 --> 01:23:30,319
but his whole thing was mobility. And you know, again

1130
01:23:30,359 --> 01:23:35,319
like his formad of experience at command level, and I

1131
01:23:35,359 --> 01:23:39,319
believe the rank of commander as a police rank came

1132
01:23:39,359 --> 01:23:43,760
about under Parker's tenure. But you know, his his experience,

1133
01:23:43,920 --> 01:23:46,279
his form of experience had been in the service, like

1134
01:23:46,359 --> 01:23:51,479
at the you know, in the military, and that perspective

1135
01:23:51,560 --> 01:23:54,680
shaped LAPD. And you know that's why like air mobility

1136
01:23:55,479 --> 01:23:58,960
by uh, like the Vietnam era was a huge thing

1137
01:23:58,960 --> 01:24:01,840
with LAPD too. You know, like they make use of

1138
01:24:01,920 --> 01:24:05,279
shoppers in a way that northern police departments do. I mean,

1139
01:24:05,319 --> 01:24:09,079
part of that's just because the geography and the vastness

1140
01:24:09,079 --> 01:24:14,199
of the territory they're responsible for, but it's also a

1141
01:24:14,279 --> 01:24:17,880
very military way of like staying on target or I

1142
01:24:17,880 --> 01:24:20,159
don't I don't know how the police what their nomenclature

1143
01:24:20,239 --> 01:24:22,199
is for that. I'm sure they call it something different

1144
01:24:22,640 --> 01:24:27,680
that sounds less ominous or or or direct the action

1145
01:24:27,800 --> 01:24:28,479
oriented but.

1146
01:24:30,119 --> 01:24:34,039
Speaker 1: Not not not to try to be funny, but Mayor

1147
01:24:34,079 --> 01:24:40,079
Goody and Philadelphia also used helicopters to change Philadelphia. Do

1148
01:24:40,159 --> 01:24:41,079
you remember that?

1149
01:24:42,000 --> 01:24:48,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, yeah, that's a fair point.

1150
01:24:49,680 --> 01:24:55,199
But the you know, the so it's on the one hand,

1151
01:24:56,439 --> 01:24:58,760
so it's kind of like two competing tendencies, like the

1152
01:24:58,920 --> 01:25:05,760
posture of police deployment away from you know, like uh

1153
01:25:06,119 --> 01:25:11,880
like like police literally walking beats in uh the same neighborhood.

1154
01:25:11,880 --> 01:25:15,039
It's just that they're insinuated into the community to like

1155
01:25:15,199 --> 01:25:18,520
rotating officers, you know, so they get like a citywide

1156
01:25:18,680 --> 01:25:22,720
perspective and get used to kind of interfacing with with

1157
01:25:22,840 --> 01:25:31,000
every major population segment. And you know, switching to police

1158
01:25:31,079 --> 01:25:34,279
cars over foot patrols. That was a huge Parker thing

1159
01:25:34,920 --> 01:25:37,039
because his whole thing too is like you know, and

1160
01:25:37,159 --> 01:25:42,279
being able to swarm a be you know, being able

1161
01:25:42,279 --> 01:25:48,760
to swarm units to uh to to reinforce officers in trouble,

1162
01:25:49,399 --> 01:25:51,319
you know, order to respond to the over running force

1163
01:25:51,439 --> 01:25:53,520
like that was a that was a Parker innovation and

1164
01:25:53,680 --> 01:26:02,119
uh this stuff, uh speaking of a wamba, I highly

1165
01:26:02,119 --> 01:26:07,239
recommend anything Wamba has written. But the Onion Field, which

1166
01:26:07,239 --> 01:26:13,880
is a horrible story. These two ILAPD playing clothes cops

1167
01:26:14,199 --> 01:26:17,560
were kidnapped and one of them was murdered. The other

1168
01:26:17,600 --> 01:26:21,960
guys survived and though the way he was treated was horrible.

1169
01:26:22,039 --> 01:26:27,279
But you know, in those days, like there there wasn't

1170
01:26:28,520 --> 01:26:33,279
you know, police radios were tied to the vehicle that

1171
01:26:33,520 --> 01:26:37,520
they were driving, and obviously there wasn't the same kind

1172
01:26:37,520 --> 01:26:43,039
of modern telecom and uh, if somebody got the drop

1173
01:26:43,079 --> 01:26:45,920
on you in those days, and previously, if you were

1174
01:26:45,960 --> 01:26:48,680
told to like surrender your weapon, you were like police

1175
01:26:48,680 --> 01:26:51,880
were told they should comply like subsequently, and this is

1176
01:26:51,920 --> 01:26:55,359
a Parker innovation. He said, like never ever surrender your

1177
01:26:55,399 --> 01:26:59,319
service weapon, you know, like Besis, you should die before

1178
01:26:59,359 --> 01:27:02,159
we ever give it weapon, you know, and the police

1179
01:27:02,239 --> 01:27:06,079
just adopted like a more military mindset and like across

1180
01:27:06,119 --> 01:27:10,000
the board. But at the same time, though, you know,

1181
01:27:10,039 --> 01:27:13,520
like I said, like Parker was very much part of

1182
01:27:13,560 --> 01:27:21,520
the sociologically progressive, academically polished class, that kind of bureaucrats

1183
01:27:21,560 --> 01:27:28,079
who represented the face twenty century policing, and interestingly, Gene

1184
01:27:28,199 --> 01:27:31,079
Roddenberry starred with lapd. You know, he's like the Star

1185
01:27:31,159 --> 01:27:33,279
Trek guy. I think Star Trek's goofy. I'm not a

1186
01:27:33,279 --> 01:27:37,600
fan of it, but the original series is a very

1187
01:27:37,680 --> 01:27:40,159
much kind of a time capsule of of like the

1188
01:27:40,279 --> 01:27:44,880
Kennedy sixties Kennedy or sixties. I realized it it endured

1189
01:27:44,920 --> 01:27:50,119
beyond that. But Captain Kirk is based on William H. Parker,

1190
01:27:50,800 --> 01:27:53,000
like like literally, like roden Berry said that, and like

1191
01:27:53,039 --> 01:27:56,159
he knew the guy, you know, and he's like that's

1192
01:27:56,239 --> 01:27:57,960
like Kirk is like this guy. He was like this

1193
01:27:58,079 --> 01:28:02,359
man of action, but he's also like mister you know,

1194
01:28:02,640 --> 01:28:05,680
he's always like exciting Abraham Lincoln in the Constitution and

1195
01:28:05,720 --> 01:28:08,800
he's like he's like mister like appeal to legal authority,

1196
01:28:08,840 --> 01:28:10,920
and we do everything by the book. He's supposed to

1197
01:28:10,960 --> 01:28:14,239
be William H. Parker, Okay. And that's also why, like

1198
01:28:14,760 --> 01:28:17,039
he's got like a multi racial crew and he's got

1199
01:28:17,279 --> 01:28:19,359
he's got the Russian guy on deck, he's got like

1200
01:28:19,399 --> 01:28:21,720
the effeminate Asian guy. He's got like the black woman

1201
01:28:21,760 --> 01:28:25,000
who's like his telecom officer. Like this this wasn't just

1202
01:28:26,359 --> 01:28:29,039
that this wasn't just token his time on television. I mean, yeah,

1203
01:28:29,079 --> 01:28:31,359
that was part of it, but that was very deliberate,

1204
01:28:31,439 --> 01:28:34,520
like this is this is whyam Mage Parker's police department

1205
01:28:34,560 --> 01:28:39,359
in space, you know, which which I think is interesting,

1206
01:28:40,439 --> 01:28:45,199
but ibe he had a kind of that kind of

1207
01:28:45,239 --> 01:28:49,479
stuff I'm talking about. And Wamba wrote directly about this

1208
01:28:49,920 --> 01:28:51,840
in his in the like he wrote it was in

1209
01:28:51,840 --> 01:28:55,680
the onion field, and he mentioned this later in his

1210
01:28:55,800 --> 01:29:00,720
life that like it's an ongoing like exam kind of

1211
01:29:00,720 --> 01:29:03,520
the weirdness of the of the sixties and kind of

1212
01:29:03,520 --> 01:29:10,039
the new the kind of new fangled progressivism of it.

1213
01:29:10,039 --> 01:29:11,920
It was on the game to be called colloquially the

1214
01:29:12,000 --> 01:29:16,399
coloquially the Blazer experiment, as in a blazer like a

1215
01:29:16,439 --> 01:29:22,279
sports jacket. And uh, this jurist this town called uh

1216
01:29:22,720 --> 01:29:28,359
Menlo Park in California, they hired this, but it was

1217
01:29:28,600 --> 01:29:38,840
they hired this police chief named, uh Victoria Cizankis. Cizankis,

1218
01:29:38,920 --> 01:29:43,600
I think I'm butchering that name, forgive me, but his

1219
01:29:44,800 --> 01:29:48,560
Melo Park was at They to say that had troubled community.

1220
01:29:48,640 --> 01:29:51,920
To say the troubled community relations the police department, I mean,

1221
01:29:52,239 --> 01:29:54,279
would be a gross understatement. Okay, I mean this was

1222
01:29:54,319 --> 01:29:58,840
nineteen sixty eight. That's kind of nationwide that these issues

1223
01:29:58,840 --> 01:30:04,479
were emerging, but it was pret particularly pronounced in Menlo Park. Okay,

1224
01:30:07,159 --> 01:30:14,680
they've been hit particularly hard by the nineteen sixties there.

1225
01:30:14,680 --> 01:30:18,199
It's located just south of San Francisco, so they caught

1226
01:30:18,199 --> 01:30:21,000
a lot of the same ship that the Bay Area

1227
01:30:21,119 --> 01:30:24,680
proper did, you know, a lot of like a lot

1228
01:30:24,680 --> 01:30:26,079
of a lot of a lot of a lot of

1229
01:30:26,119 --> 01:30:30,439
cultivated student radicalism. You know. When I say cultivated, I

1230
01:30:30,520 --> 01:30:32,640
mean you know, the usual suspects and g os and

1231
01:30:32,720 --> 01:30:36,039
things do what they can to provoke and orchestrate the

1232
01:30:36,119 --> 01:30:39,239
kind of thing. But it just like real, like real,

1233
01:30:40,000 --> 01:30:44,159
just like organic difficulties between the races, you know. As unfortunately,

1234
01:30:44,239 --> 01:30:54,279
as you know, southern California's associated with North and South. Uh.

1235
01:30:54,600 --> 01:30:58,039
The Memlo Park Coppers, their reputation is being kind of

1236
01:30:58,079 --> 01:31:04,079
a kick ass police department, and during racial incidents or

1237
01:31:04,000 --> 01:31:06,640
or anti war protest that got out of hand, like

1238
01:31:06,640 --> 01:31:08,399
like the police would go in and kickle out of

1239
01:31:08,439 --> 01:31:14,880
the ass. Okay, And this caused this, this, this this

1240
01:31:14,960 --> 01:31:23,119
caused real problems, all right. So Susannacis or Susankas, sorry,

1241
01:31:23,199 --> 01:31:29,399
Cesankas he's brought in and he's got this kind of

1242
01:31:29,439 --> 01:31:36,680
like radical orientation about policing. And it was called the

1243
01:31:36,680 --> 01:31:42,760
Blazer experiment because he did away with police uniforms. He's like, Okay,

1244
01:31:42,760 --> 01:31:44,279
from now on, he's like, we're not we're not We're

1245
01:31:44,279 --> 01:31:47,439
not gonna wear some paramilitary uniform with a sam Brown

1246
01:31:47,520 --> 01:31:51,680
belt and like uh, you know, like a piece on

1247
01:31:51,720 --> 01:31:57,439
your hip or we're not gonna do that anymore. So

1248
01:31:58,079 --> 01:32:02,279
these Menlo Park police, they started going around wearing like

1249
01:32:02,399 --> 01:32:05,800
khaki pants and these like green blazers, so they look

1250
01:32:05,880 --> 01:32:08,039
like guys who's worked at a country club or something.

1251
01:32:08,199 --> 01:32:11,319
And there's like this little like city crest on on

1252
01:32:11,600 --> 01:32:13,680
like the breast pocket like you can you can like

1253
01:32:13,720 --> 01:32:18,119
google is and it's it's ridiculous. And your your weapon,

1254
01:32:18,239 --> 01:32:21,600
your service weapon was always supposed to be out of view, okay,

1255
01:32:22,079 --> 01:32:24,800
either by way of a shoulder holster or you know,

1256
01:32:25,199 --> 01:32:29,479
discreetly squirreled away like in an ankle holster, you know,

1257
01:32:29,800 --> 01:32:32,520
because no one's never supposed to see it, you know.

1258
01:32:32,680 --> 01:32:37,279
And there's this whole there's this whole litany of kind

1259
01:32:37,319 --> 01:32:42,319
of rules for how you're supposed to and instigate like

1260
01:32:42,359 --> 01:32:44,920
basically a terarry stop and like even if you have to,

1261
01:32:45,199 --> 01:32:47,239
even if you have to, like you know, stop and

1262
01:32:47,239 --> 01:32:52,399
frisk somebody because they're obviously strapped, or because they're up

1263
01:32:52,439 --> 01:32:56,760
to you know, or because like your police instincts or

1264
01:32:56,800 --> 01:33:01,319
however they characterize it in those days, tells you that

1265
01:33:01,520 --> 01:33:06,079
you know that, you know, your spiky senses tell you

1266
01:33:06,199 --> 01:33:08,880
something you don't like about this this suspect. So frisk

1267
01:33:08,920 --> 01:33:11,319
imm and figure out the problem. Cause later you're supposed

1268
01:33:11,319 --> 01:33:15,439
to always like initiate those contacts by you know, but

1269
01:33:15,600 --> 01:33:18,239
by asking somebody if if if they if they have consent,

1270
01:33:18,359 --> 01:33:22,479
you know, ship like that, which is fucking stupid. Okay,

1271
01:33:24,119 --> 01:33:26,479
it was, it was. It was stupid, stupid today. It

1272
01:33:26,560 --> 01:33:29,119
was stupid back then. And like a lot of this

1273
01:33:29,199 --> 01:33:36,960
crap is coming back, but these days it's it's in

1274
01:33:37,279 --> 01:33:40,560
combination with various other factors, you know, like like like

1275
01:33:40,680 --> 01:33:44,199
policing as as it's existed is coming to an end, okay,

1276
01:33:44,239 --> 01:33:47,760
And so it's kind of interesting to me, Like in

1277
01:33:47,840 --> 01:33:52,439
nineteen sixty eight, uh, the the po model police work

1278
01:33:52,840 --> 01:33:56,439
as far from exhausted itself, obviously, but it's interesting that

1279
01:33:56,560 --> 01:33:58,399
some of this stuff is kind of coming back because

1280
01:33:58,439 --> 01:34:01,640
if it's an issue of first impression as people scrambled

1281
01:34:01,720 --> 01:34:08,119
kind of trying salvage this this obsolete model. But you know,

1282
01:34:08,199 --> 01:34:14,239
this caused, uh, this caused a lot of consternation among

1283
01:34:14,279 --> 01:34:17,439
the ranks of police departments because obviously there was these

1284
01:34:17,520 --> 01:34:22,600
like like like progressive types, you know, and including uh

1285
01:34:23,279 --> 01:34:27,840
Susanthas fans. They thought like this was great. But you know,

1286
01:34:27,920 --> 01:34:32,800
a cops who were who were dealing with burgeining anarchy

1287
01:34:32,840 --> 01:34:36,960
and real violence, you know in in Los Angeles and Chicago,

1288
01:34:37,039 --> 01:34:40,960
in Boston and Philly and New York City. You know,

1289
01:34:41,039 --> 01:34:44,800
being a cop was a dangerous job then, and you know,

1290
01:34:44,840 --> 01:34:48,319
you you very much were out gunned, you know, you

1291
01:34:48,520 --> 01:34:52,720
very much you were in jeopardy then in a way

1292
01:34:52,760 --> 01:34:58,359
you're not today. You know, I realized there's cops in

1293
01:34:59,760 --> 01:35:02,920
god forsaken places that are in fact under fire a lot,

1294
01:35:04,600 --> 01:35:07,960
and uh, they don't have the kind of forces and

1295
01:35:08,119 --> 01:35:13,199
being or the firepower to really be confident, you know,

1296
01:35:13,279 --> 01:35:17,800
and if if, if they get moved on. But that's

1297
01:35:17,840 --> 01:35:20,359
the exception, not the rule. Like in the nineteen sixties,

1298
01:35:20,399 --> 01:35:23,479
that was that was the rule, not the exception. Okay,

1299
01:35:24,600 --> 01:35:27,479
parts police department was was was was kind of the

1300
01:35:27,479 --> 01:35:32,600
exception because like they had all that stuff, but you know,

1301
01:35:32,680 --> 01:35:39,039
like very very very kind of rapidly this uh the

1302
01:35:39,119 --> 01:35:43,000
Blazer experiment. Uh, like people realize like this is just

1303
01:35:43,079 --> 01:35:45,920
not this is not something that's going to work. And

1304
01:35:46,039 --> 01:35:51,079
uh but the what did uh what what what did

1305
01:35:51,199 --> 01:35:57,840
linger though? Is you know, the the like like career

1306
01:35:57,880 --> 01:36:04,319
minded officers coming from more academically rigorous backgrounds. That's something

1307
01:36:04,319 --> 01:36:06,640
that endured really until like the early eighties, and then

1308
01:36:06,680 --> 01:36:09,159
by then like that was by then that was done.

1309
01:36:09,720 --> 01:36:12,600
You know, for a lot of reasons. Part of it

1310
01:36:12,640 --> 01:36:16,800
was a trickle down effect of of uh of military

1311
01:36:16,840 --> 01:36:19,119
industrial imperatives. I mean, I know that makes me sound

1312
01:36:19,119 --> 01:36:20,840
like some shopski. I don't. I don't mean it in

1313
01:36:20,880 --> 01:36:23,359
the same way that people like Key and zach Lyites do.

1314
01:36:23,560 --> 01:36:29,960
But it is a fact. But one of the one

1315
01:36:29,960 --> 01:36:31,920
of the one of the many kind of coheinds of

1316
01:36:32,000 --> 01:36:38,920
comical things about the Blazer experiments. The the organizational lingue

1317
01:36:39,000 --> 01:36:45,199
lingo of the police department was changed. Sergeants became managers

1318
01:36:45,840 --> 01:36:49,239
and police lieutenants and menlo were called directors.

1319
01:36:49,760 --> 01:36:49,960
Speaker 1: Like it.

1320
01:36:50,159 --> 01:36:53,079
Speaker 2: I mean that it's it's it's a comical bullshit. It's

1321
01:36:53,119 --> 01:36:55,199
got like the kind like there was some of that.

1322
01:36:55,239 --> 01:36:57,079
I don't like the Vietnam e are at military like

1323
01:36:57,119 --> 01:37:01,840
in the Poga and the Poe ranks. It's just you know,

1324
01:37:02,760 --> 01:37:09,199
a very strange era, man like this. But by the

1325
01:37:09,199 --> 01:37:14,520
early seventies, all this kind of all this all this

1326
01:37:14,560 --> 01:37:17,239
kind of stuff, and it kind of fallen out of

1327
01:37:17,279 --> 01:37:24,760
favor even, you know it even even among a kind

1328
01:37:24,800 --> 01:37:29,560
of the most art you know polemisis of uh, in

1329
01:37:29,880 --> 01:37:33,239
favor of you know, police reform, which in the interview

1330
01:37:33,319 --> 01:37:38,399
would you know kind of constitute a stripping of the

1331
01:37:38,439 --> 01:37:42,560
ability of big city police to you know, to meet

1332
01:37:42,920 --> 01:37:49,479
to meet brets. You know, this is like little remembered

1333
01:37:49,520 --> 01:37:52,720
the day, and it's remarkable the kind of short memory

1334
01:37:52,720 --> 01:37:56,640
people have. And I think about this a lot, especially

1335
01:37:56,640 --> 01:38:01,880
when there's when the regime tries been sitting with propaganda

1336
01:38:01,920 --> 01:38:09,079
about you know, domestic terrorism into in the policy discussions.

1337
01:38:09,119 --> 01:38:12,239
You know, uh, during the early nineteen seventies, there was

1338
01:38:12,319 --> 01:38:17,960
there was constant genuine like domestic terrorist incidents, you know,

1339
01:38:18,079 --> 01:38:26,000
coast to coast. Nixon and Jay R. Hoover, who you know,

1340
01:38:26,000 --> 01:38:28,239
even in the best of times, had a very contentious

1341
01:38:28,279 --> 01:38:35,760
and not at all friendly relationship to say the least.

1342
01:38:36,319 --> 01:38:40,960
This became such a concern that Nixon during June nineteen

1343
01:38:41,039 --> 01:38:48,520
seventy Nixon haled uh Hoover into the Oval Office and

1344
01:38:48,560 --> 01:38:53,439
he he said, have known certain terms that uh quote

1345
01:38:53,520 --> 01:38:59,319
revolutionary terror was the greatest single threat to like civil

1346
01:38:59,479 --> 01:39:05,279
order in America at the time. And that wasn't that

1347
01:39:05,439 --> 01:39:10,159
wasn't hyper believe. You know, there was like the weathermen

1348
01:39:10,479 --> 01:39:16,279
were going nuts. Uh. There was a half a dozen

1349
01:39:16,319 --> 01:39:21,800
other you know, self declared you know, like Mawist revolutionary

1350
01:39:22,279 --> 01:39:26,920
groupings that were dropping bodies and and and and and

1351
01:39:27,000 --> 01:39:33,119
pulling off ied attacks. You know, there were the Patty

1352
01:39:33,199 --> 01:39:36,600
Hurst incidents. It's almost so strange, like that seems like

1353
01:39:36,640 --> 01:39:41,039
something that like like a Hollywood screenwriter had like written

1354
01:39:41,039 --> 01:39:46,640
that Patty Hurst s l a situation into some script.

1355
01:39:46,800 --> 01:39:49,039
Like people would have laughed at it, saying there's no

1356
01:39:49,039 --> 01:39:51,119
way that could possibly happen. But I mean, but but

1357
01:39:51,159 --> 01:39:51,760
it happened.

1358
01:39:52,600 --> 01:39:56,119
Speaker 1: You know, you had there's a lot of hijacking, a

1359
01:39:56,119 --> 01:39:57,760
lot of hijacking the planes too.

1360
01:39:58,479 --> 01:40:01,800
Speaker 2: It became the norm. Yeah, it became something that was

1361
01:40:01,800 --> 01:40:07,680
as common as uh like armed robbery and yeah, the

1362
01:40:07,680 --> 01:40:11,760
the zebra killings you know, which were uh, which we're

1363
01:40:11,800 --> 01:40:15,840
what's we're horrifying, you know, And that was like part

1364
01:40:15,840 --> 01:40:22,439
of it was the deliberate suppression of of reporting on

1365
01:40:22,439 --> 01:40:26,000
on i've racially driven violence, so as the you know,

1366
01:40:26,920 --> 01:40:30,680
preclude escalation and the kindling effect, as it were. But

1367
01:40:30,720 --> 01:40:33,079
part of it was also like the zebra killings, people

1368
01:40:33,199 --> 01:40:38,119
don't know about them. It was this offshoot of the

1369
01:40:38,199 --> 01:40:43,600
five percenter faction of the ny who called themselves death Angels. Uh.

1370
01:40:44,239 --> 01:40:50,159
They went on this rampage of just random torture murders

1371
01:40:50,199 --> 01:40:55,399
of white people in the Bay Area, and the police

1372
01:40:55,520 --> 01:41:00,119
code UH for these incidents with zebra it's in it.

1373
01:41:00,119 --> 01:41:06,079
It's ironically accidental that, you know, the implication of zebras

1374
01:41:06,239 --> 01:41:10,159
is relating to black and white striping or whatever. But

1375
01:41:11,279 --> 01:41:13,239
that was going on at the same time the Zodiac

1376
01:41:13,359 --> 01:41:17,720
killer was was bodying people and and and taunting the cops.

1377
01:41:18,640 --> 01:41:21,399
So it's kind of overshadowed. But this is a real thing,

1378
01:41:22,520 --> 01:41:28,800
you know, and it uh there were throughout the seventies,

1379
01:41:28,880 --> 01:41:32,520
there was there was hundreds of these incidents every year,

1380
01:41:32,840 --> 01:41:41,359
you know, if not thousands, great and small the uh

1381
01:41:41,760 --> 01:41:44,640
and then downtown New York even this got this this

1382
01:41:44,680 --> 01:41:46,680
whole kind of air got kicked off. The summer of

1383
01:41:46,720 --> 01:41:52,840
sixty nine, this uh, this commie radical named Sam Melville,

1384
01:41:54,800 --> 01:41:58,920
him and his cadre, they bombed something like a dozen

1385
01:41:59,000 --> 01:42:03,760
buildings like in downtown Manhattan, you know, from the summer

1386
01:42:03,800 --> 01:42:07,079
of sixty nine until like that November, and then against

1387
01:42:07,119 --> 01:42:12,960
the seventies as ninety six nine, nineteen seventy it only

1388
01:42:13,319 --> 01:42:17,960
it only snowballed, you know, I mean, so it's kind

1389
01:42:17,960 --> 01:42:24,319
of it was kind of fertile ground for uh. Yeah,

1390
01:42:24,359 --> 01:42:27,840
by ninety seventy two, incredible as the city as I mean,

1391
01:42:28,000 --> 01:42:32,159
back in these days, FBI statistics were substantially more reliable

1392
01:42:32,159 --> 01:42:35,800
than today. In ninety seventy two, there was there there's

1393
01:42:35,880 --> 01:42:40,520
two thousand and five hundred politically motivated bombings or ied

1394
01:42:41,159 --> 01:42:45,119
attacks on American soil. That that that comes out to

1395
01:42:45,199 --> 01:42:50,239
five a day. Okay, excuse me, this is totally insane,

1396
01:42:51,600 --> 01:42:54,920
but that that's that's what laid the groundwork for kind

1397
01:42:54,920 --> 01:43:01,079
of nineteen eighties policing, which truly is when things truly

1398
01:43:01,079 --> 01:43:07,399
became paramilitarized, you know. And and Darryl Gates was the

1399
01:43:07,479 --> 01:43:13,680
standard bearer of that, you know, and Gates is most remembered,

1400
01:43:15,680 --> 01:43:17,920
I mean, I Gates was because I spent so much

1401
01:43:17,960 --> 01:43:21,199
time in La as a kid, and Gate Gates was

1402
01:43:21,199 --> 01:43:25,800
an intimidating guy, you know, like I any, and he

1403
01:43:25,920 --> 01:43:29,199
seemed he seemed the paramilitary, you know, like a lot

1404
01:43:29,279 --> 01:43:33,039
of big city cops either seemed they seem kind of

1405
01:43:33,039 --> 01:43:36,520
like either like Keystone cop eurocrats, you know, like goofs,

1406
01:43:38,640 --> 01:43:41,399
or they seemed just kind of like politicians like Gates,

1407
01:43:41,520 --> 01:43:44,560
like seemed like a bad dude, you know. And he'd

1408
01:43:44,640 --> 01:43:49,039
uh l a PD. You'd see him, uh, you know,

1409
01:43:49,079 --> 01:43:51,199
the L A p D. They didn't wear ties, they'd

1410
01:43:51,199 --> 01:43:54,600
wear those like uh, they'd wear those like v neck

1411
01:43:54,680 --> 01:43:58,760
like button. I'm sure it's like a vest. They looked

1412
01:43:58,800 --> 01:44:01,800
like super modern, and and they were all a bunch

1413
01:44:01,840 --> 01:44:03,359
of like in the eighties, they were all a bunch

1414
01:44:03,359 --> 01:44:06,680
of like buffed out, like tough looking guys. You know.

1415
01:44:07,439 --> 01:44:09,520
I was just I was used to like Chicago cops

1416
01:44:09,520 --> 01:44:12,319
look like goons and the and they've always come heavy,

1417
01:44:12,359 --> 01:44:14,760
but they like Scha cops. The air kind of looked

1418
01:44:14,760 --> 01:44:17,399
like fat ass like mob guys or something, you know.

1419
01:44:17,600 --> 01:44:20,279
So like in LA as a kid, I was always

1420
01:44:20,359 --> 01:44:23,720
kind of tripped out by Darryl Gates and OAPD. But

1421
01:44:25,720 --> 01:44:27,800
you know what Gates is most kind of known for

1422
01:44:27,920 --> 01:44:38,359
is stuff like the CRASH program, which began prior to

1423
01:44:38,399 --> 01:44:42,920
gates his tenure. But you know, the movie Colors like

1424
01:44:43,119 --> 01:44:46,520
was about CRASH, which is an acronym for Community Resources

1425
01:44:46,560 --> 01:44:52,600
against Street Hooligans. It uh, it originally was called TRASH

1426
01:44:52,960 --> 01:44:56,079
Total Resources against Street Houlians. And I would say the

1427
01:44:56,199 --> 01:44:58,520
references like we're like the garbage man, We're taking out

1428
01:44:58,560 --> 01:45:04,079
the fucking trash, and LABD realized like when that would

1429
01:45:04,119 --> 01:45:09,479
public well this this isn't like great pr But you know,

1430
01:45:09,560 --> 01:45:13,920
Gates also was the father of SWAT. He devised SWAT,

1431
01:45:13,960 --> 01:45:18,039
which initially was Special Weapons Assault Team. You know, then

1432
01:45:18,039 --> 01:45:24,239
we have special weapons and tactics. But uh, Gates divides

1433
01:45:24,319 --> 01:45:30,199
that during Parker's tenure, you know, and uh that was

1434
01:45:30,279 --> 01:45:32,600
actually very forward looking, like one of the reasons why

1435
01:45:32,760 --> 01:45:34,680
one of one of a million reasons why the FBI

1436
01:45:35,119 --> 01:45:37,439
is like it's head up his ass, you know how,

1437
01:45:37,479 --> 01:45:40,319
Like their direct to action capability is still the hostage

1438
01:45:40,359 --> 01:45:44,159
rescue team and their operational paradigm like until very recently

1439
01:45:44,359 --> 01:45:47,159
was that treat everything as if it's a hostage situation,

1440
01:45:47,239 --> 01:45:51,439
which makes which makes no sense. Whatsoever, Like Gates a

1441
01:45:51,560 --> 01:45:57,800
SWAT model was it? I mean he actually proceeded. He

1442
01:45:57,880 --> 01:45:59,920
proceeded kind of like a lot of the a lot

1443
01:45:59,920 --> 01:46:05,039
of the military types were dynamically and progressive minded of

1444
01:46:05,079 --> 01:46:08,520
the day in tactical terms, I mean not political terms.

1445
01:46:08,920 --> 01:46:15,000
You know, who were around like the Special Operations Forces community,

1446
01:46:15,079 --> 01:46:16,720
you know, and in those days, I was before there

1447
01:46:16,760 --> 01:46:21,000
was an integrated command or anything, and it was hard

1448
01:46:21,039 --> 01:46:23,520
to get anything done. It's like in the individual commands

1449
01:46:23,560 --> 01:46:25,920
it kind of what kind of made or broke everything was,

1450
01:46:26,479 --> 01:46:29,279
you know, who was in a leadership role. But but

1451
01:46:29,319 --> 01:46:32,239
for better or we worse LPD SWAT, you know, they

1452
01:46:32,279 --> 01:46:35,119
they were very dynamic, you know, and there's a kind

1453
01:46:35,119 --> 01:46:39,920
of a full repertoire of of of force responses that

1454
01:46:40,000 --> 01:46:43,199
they trained for, you know, and they were very serious guys.

1455
01:46:43,239 --> 01:46:49,520
But crash and which culminated in an Operation Hammer, which

1456
01:46:49,560 --> 01:46:52,079
the opening on the movie Colors, which I think Colors

1457
01:46:52,079 --> 01:46:57,000
is a fucking great movie, but the opening scene or

1458
01:46:57,119 --> 01:47:01,840
LAPD they they just like swarm the city and they

1459
01:47:01,880 --> 01:47:05,359
basically like they basically throw bracelets on like every known

1460
01:47:05,399 --> 01:47:08,680
gang member or like everybody or like every or every

1461
01:47:08,720 --> 01:47:11,680
like military age male like flying colors and they like

1462
01:47:11,720 --> 01:47:16,119
throw them in the county jail, you know, to kind

1463
01:47:16,119 --> 01:47:18,640
of get an idea like not like not just to

1464
01:47:19,600 --> 01:47:21,479
like send it, to literally lay the hammer down and

1465
01:47:21,520 --> 01:47:24,479
say like l E. P D runs the street. But uh,

1466
01:47:24,600 --> 01:47:26,279
they wanted to get an under they wanted they wanted

1467
01:47:26,319 --> 01:47:29,319
to also like get these guys government names all in

1468
01:47:29,319 --> 01:47:31,600
the system, but they also wanted to get an idea

1469
01:47:31,720 --> 01:47:34,720
like forest levels that like major sets head you know, crips,

1470
01:47:34,720 --> 01:47:42,079
Blood's Eighteenth Street, you know, all those all all those

1471
01:47:42,079 --> 01:47:46,119
mobs in in in south central and East LA. But

1472
01:47:48,239 --> 01:47:51,520
it was, uh, but that but that that was to

1473
01:47:51,720 --> 01:47:54,119
the end of like community based policing. It's like, okay,

1474
01:47:54,159 --> 01:47:58,119
we got the spare plunk of our forests. Crash you know,

1475
01:47:58,359 --> 01:48:04,039
every uh every police I think there's eighteen police districts

1476
01:48:04,079 --> 01:48:07,640
in Los Angeles and every district had a crash unit.

1477
01:48:08,239 --> 01:48:10,880
Now like a sign to it, but crash had like

1478
01:48:11,000 --> 01:48:14,279
city wide jurisdiction. Like a lot of these guys had

1479
01:48:14,279 --> 01:48:17,439
been actively gang banging like before they you know, went

1480
01:48:17,479 --> 01:48:21,399
to the police academy. L APD knew that and they

1481
01:48:21,479 --> 01:48:24,680
did like vet these guys somewhat, but obviously came in

1482
01:48:24,720 --> 01:48:26,319
you know, they ran into problems. One of the things

1483
01:48:26,319 --> 01:48:31,760
that blew the fucking lid off of a rampart scandal

1484
01:48:32,159 --> 01:48:33,920
is like one of the one of those dudes who

1485
01:48:34,039 --> 01:48:36,439
was affiliated with death Row Records was like one of

1486
01:48:36,439 --> 01:48:39,600
their security operatives. He was he was an act. He

1487
01:48:39,680 --> 01:48:42,760
was an active LAPD cop. He got into a shootout

1488
01:48:42,800 --> 01:48:45,119
with some other off duty cop over like this over

1489
01:48:45,159 --> 01:48:51,239
some traffic bullshits and dude died like whoever he was

1490
01:48:51,279 --> 01:48:54,880
throwing shots at like you know, return fire and killed him.

1491
01:48:55,319 --> 01:48:57,880
And uh, dude calls it in you know, the other

1492
01:48:58,119 --> 01:49:00,279
off duty cops like yeah, like you know, like that

1493
01:49:00,319 --> 01:49:03,039
has killed this guy who like you know, started squeezing

1494
01:49:03,119 --> 01:49:06,640
rounds off like lo and behold the found. This guy's

1495
01:49:06,640 --> 01:49:09,840
a cop. He like works for death Row. He's clicked

1496
01:49:09,920 --> 01:49:12,600
up with the you know, the same set that like

1497
01:49:12,680 --> 01:49:15,680
Suge Knight and all them guys were. But that but

1498
01:49:15,760 --> 01:49:18,000
that came about like l EPD tried to play it

1499
01:49:18,000 --> 01:49:19,880
off like all this guy was on bad apple loose

1500
01:49:19,880 --> 01:49:23,319
stood through the cracks, you know, and unfortunately a lot

1501
01:49:23,359 --> 01:49:26,079
of young guys from South central you know or insane

1502
01:49:26,119 --> 01:49:28,880
with into that that life and are thugging it. No,

1503
01:49:29,079 --> 01:49:32,199
that's that's not what happened, man, Like they like they

1504
01:49:32,439 --> 01:49:34,039
like the whole thing would crash was that a lot

1505
01:49:34,079 --> 01:49:37,119
of the guys were on record that like a lot

1506
01:49:37,119 --> 01:49:39,159
of their a lot of their officers like on record

1507
01:49:39,199 --> 01:49:41,079
with like different mobs. That's one of the reasons why

1508
01:49:41,119 --> 01:49:46,960
they were feared, you know. But that, uh, that's one

1509
01:49:46,960 --> 01:49:49,520
of the reasons too. Interestingly, also, you know, like the

1510
01:49:49,560 --> 01:49:55,159
Compton police Department no longer exists, and they were they

1511
01:49:55,239 --> 01:49:58,319
were like a heavy squad man like, they were very tough,

1512
01:49:59,039 --> 01:50:02,600
but they they were kind of like a micro cosm

1513
01:50:02,760 --> 01:50:06,239
of you know this, they had their own culture because

1514
01:50:06,319 --> 01:50:07,520
and I mean they were you know, they were their

1515
01:50:07,560 --> 01:50:11,600
own police department. But they I think now Common's police

1516
01:50:11,640 --> 01:50:15,079
by La County Sheriffs like like the the so call

1517
01:50:15,159 --> 01:50:18,039
fellas will correct me, but I think that to his jurisdiction.

1518
01:50:18,720 --> 01:50:23,319
But they it was like the same institutional sensibility and

1519
01:50:23,399 --> 01:50:28,960
Compton like in a scaled down way, but like Chicago

1520
01:50:29,119 --> 01:50:32,439
was different, Like uh, like Chicago was done like a

1521
01:50:32,439 --> 01:50:35,159
thug police department and still is in a lot of ways,

1522
01:50:35,560 --> 01:50:38,279
but like they did stuff differently, you know, and it

1523
01:50:38,319 --> 01:50:41,199
was like the big the kind of share punk of

1524
01:50:41,319 --> 01:50:44,359
Chicago Police was like the Red Squad which endured until

1525
01:50:44,359 --> 01:50:51,840
the eighties, you know, but they uh it was just different.

1526
01:50:51,880 --> 01:50:57,159
But the it uh and less like overtly paramilitary. I

1527
01:50:57,159 --> 01:50:59,840
guess that's like part of it. Like Chicago PD. The

1528
01:51:00,319 --> 01:51:02,920
is kind of like a moie thief, like the way

1529
01:51:03,079 --> 01:51:06,720
the way those guys their relationship to the outfit and

1530
01:51:06,800 --> 01:51:09,279
kind of just like the way they do things. It's

1531
01:51:09,319 --> 01:51:14,279
like it's like low key whatever presence. You know, it's

1532
01:51:14,319 --> 01:51:17,359
a it was a different kind of sensibility. But you

1533
01:51:17,399 --> 01:51:22,560
know that was the big thing. Uh, my big memory

1534
01:51:22,600 --> 01:51:25,720
of Gates, you know whatever, Like I said, growing up

1535
01:51:25,720 --> 01:51:28,960
when I when I'd be in so call, like you know,

1536
01:51:29,039 --> 01:51:31,840
Gates was on TV a lot and and then like

1537
01:51:31,880 --> 01:51:34,520
a lot of like kind of mainstream like right wing

1538
01:51:34,560 --> 01:51:37,399
guys like love Darryl Gates. There's even a video game.

1539
01:51:37,479 --> 01:51:39,880
You remember you were Sierras Systems that there's those those

1540
01:51:39,960 --> 01:51:43,840
kings Quest games. Okay, there was there was kings Quest,

1541
01:51:43,840 --> 01:51:46,960
there was Space Quest. Well there was Darryl Gates Police

1542
01:51:47,039 --> 01:51:50,119
Quest for like the Apple two C And I remember

1543
01:51:50,159 --> 01:51:52,079
like a friend of mine, like junior high, he like

1544
01:51:52,159 --> 01:51:55,880
gave me like a copy of it. Let me borrow

1545
01:51:55,880 --> 01:51:58,680
it or something. And uh yeah, like Darryl Gates is

1546
01:51:58,720 --> 01:52:01,239
like the only police pigs he please you in America.

1547
01:52:01,439 --> 01:52:03,319
He had like his face in a freaking video game.

1548
01:52:03,920 --> 01:52:07,119
But uh, but people, there's a there's a bunch of

1549
01:52:08,520 --> 01:52:10,960
like I remember fools like Martin Downey Junior like loved

1550
01:52:11,039 --> 01:52:13,119
Daryl Gates. But then the other side, you know, he was,

1551
01:52:13,239 --> 01:52:17,520
uh he was like this hate figure for for for

1552
01:52:17,640 --> 01:52:21,239
liberals and stuff. But I remember when poor Reginald Denny

1553
01:52:21,359 --> 01:52:25,880
got moved on by them people in South Central and

1554
01:52:25,880 --> 01:52:27,600
it was the truck driver got pulled out of his

1555
01:52:28,600 --> 01:52:31,800
pulled out of his truck and and and and beaten

1556
01:52:31,880 --> 01:52:35,239
an into his life. You know, his skull fractures. There's

1557
01:52:35,239 --> 01:52:39,840
a horrible case. Gates personally arrested, served the warrants on

1558
01:52:39,880 --> 01:52:42,800
those suspects, and he was in like full riot gear.

1559
01:52:43,199 --> 01:52:45,520
It seemed tasteless to me. It's like, okay, first of all,

1560
01:52:45,560 --> 01:52:48,159
it's not a role appropriate for a fucking police chief.

1561
01:52:48,560 --> 01:52:51,279
Like secondly, it's like you're using this poor guy's victimization

1562
01:52:51,479 --> 01:52:53,560
as some flex like get out of here.

1563
01:52:53,600 --> 01:52:53,760
Speaker 1: Man.

1564
01:52:53,840 --> 01:52:57,359
Speaker 2: It's it really rubbed me the wrong way, you know,

1565
01:52:58,720 --> 01:53:02,239
And those are those were very bits times, but but Gates,

1566
01:53:04,840 --> 01:53:09,000
you know, he also one of the things that ampathet

1567
01:53:09,079 --> 01:53:12,880
to people about the about the O. J. Simpson case

1568
01:53:13,159 --> 01:53:16,560
is that the state deserve to lose that case. You're

1569
01:53:16,560 --> 01:53:18,960
not just like entitled to a verdict when you can't

1570
01:53:20,239 --> 01:53:22,760
when when you know, when when you can't account for

1571
01:53:22,800 --> 01:53:25,399
the chain of custody of your evidence, you know, when

1572
01:53:25,399 --> 01:53:29,840
you've got like literal clowns like uh like Chris Darden

1573
01:53:29,840 --> 01:53:33,000
and Mercia Clark hitting up your proscatorial team. But the

1574
01:53:33,039 --> 01:53:35,399
whole like keep also don't understand. And some of the

1575
01:53:35,479 --> 01:53:38,920
jurors attested to this, you know, Mark Furman is a

1576
01:53:38,960 --> 01:53:42,760
total fucking weirdo, like like a total weirdo, and like

1577
01:53:42,800 --> 01:53:46,199
it's not everybody's like, oh people just people just acquitted

1578
01:53:46,239 --> 01:53:50,319
OJ because of racism. That's not really what put people

1579
01:53:50,359 --> 01:53:53,199
off about Furman. I mean, yeah, that didn't help any

1580
01:53:53,319 --> 01:53:55,399
I'm sure with some of those jurors were like ignorant

1581
01:53:55,439 --> 01:53:57,199
people who were like, oh, he said the N word.

1582
01:53:57,720 --> 01:54:00,960
But the context of how those tapes came about, we're bizarre.

1583
01:54:01,439 --> 01:54:05,079
Furman was a compulsive liar. He was a stolen valor case,

1584
01:54:06,039 --> 01:54:08,439
like he lied about being like underfire and nom and

1585
01:54:08,560 --> 01:54:11,239
like like all these shit, the dude, it's a fucking psycho,

1586
01:54:12,159 --> 01:54:15,000
you know, Like that's the real issue with him. And

1587
01:54:15,119 --> 01:54:19,760
it was pretty obvious he and van at are they

1588
01:54:19,800 --> 01:54:22,840
basically framed a guilty guy, because that's just like what

1589
01:54:22,880 --> 01:54:25,800
they did. And this is like what LAPD did. You

1590
01:54:25,800 --> 01:54:28,920
show up on the scene, you decide how you know,

1591
01:54:29,039 --> 01:54:32,279
you can fabulate a narrative about how you came upon

1592
01:54:32,319 --> 01:54:35,079
the inculplatory evidence. Then you kind of just like arrange

1593
01:54:35,079 --> 01:54:37,680
it whoever you want. And that's like what you put

1594
01:54:37,720 --> 01:54:42,359
on record, as you know, and as to what becomes

1595
01:54:42,359 --> 01:54:45,840
the case in chief. And I've had guys say to me,

1596
01:54:46,159 --> 01:54:48,840
all police departments did that, and I'm like, no, they didn't. Man,

1597
01:54:49,359 --> 01:54:53,800
Like that's really nuts and really screwy. You know, that's

1598
01:54:53,800 --> 01:54:58,079
a screwy way to do it, and and unnecessary. You know,

1599
01:54:58,119 --> 01:55:02,600
like if they if they played that stray from from jump,

1600
01:55:02,800 --> 01:55:06,000
they would have gotten their conviction. But I mean everything

1601
01:55:06,000 --> 01:55:08,680
about it was like, goofy man. And then and then OJ,

1602
01:55:09,640 --> 01:55:13,560
he's an armed man, he's wanted for multiple murder. He's

1603
01:55:13,600 --> 01:55:16,560
traveling at a high rate of speed to the airport.

1604
01:55:16,880 --> 01:55:19,319
If I do that, I get shot in the face.

1605
01:55:19,520 --> 01:55:23,680
Immediately by like swat OJ they're like calling him on

1606
01:55:23,720 --> 01:55:26,840
his cell phone, like politely asking him to turn himself in.

1607
01:55:27,119 --> 01:55:29,199
So it's on the one hand, you're like framing a

1608
01:55:29,239 --> 01:55:31,960
guilty guy. We don't need to. But then instead of

1609
01:55:32,000 --> 01:55:34,640
like throwing the bracelets on him when he's when he

1610
01:55:34,720 --> 01:55:37,159
when he's when he's wanted for double murder, you're like

1611
01:55:37,319 --> 01:55:39,560
calling him and asking him to come by like at

1612
01:55:39,600 --> 01:55:42,479
the traffic tickets. I mean, this is this is real dysfunction,

1613
01:55:43,439 --> 01:55:46,079
you know, like and it's and that that's one hundred

1614
01:55:46,199 --> 01:55:53,039
ten percent the fault of the internal leadership cadre of LAPD.

1615
01:55:53,239 --> 01:55:56,239
It's not like God being liberals like ruining police work

1616
01:55:56,600 --> 01:55:58,479
like they did a lot of this ship to themselves.

1617
01:55:59,279 --> 01:56:02,079
You know, I have a and uh and having and

1618
01:56:02,159 --> 01:56:05,159
having dudes or like on record like with the crips

1619
01:56:05,239 --> 01:56:08,560
or whatever, like actively gang banging like in l E.

1620
01:56:08,640 --> 01:56:11,720
P D when and and it being like totally above

1621
01:56:11,760 --> 01:56:15,560
board that they're gang bangers. But it's okay because this

1622
01:56:15,600 --> 01:56:18,239
is part of how we this is this is part

1623
01:56:18,279 --> 01:56:21,840
of how we you know, we maintain our our high

1624
01:56:21,920 --> 01:56:26,079
level of police intelligence. These are the are four I

1625
01:56:26,079 --> 01:56:28,840
mean that that's that's totally insane and you can't you

1626
01:56:28,880 --> 01:56:30,960
can't put that on like the Enemies of Law and

1627
01:56:31,079 --> 01:56:36,960
order like that that came from insidellit PV man. But yeah,

1628
01:56:36,960 --> 01:56:38,880
we're coming up on the hour. I think, man, let's

1629
01:56:39,960 --> 01:56:42,119
let's call it. I'll do a part three on Joseph

1630
01:56:42,199 --> 01:56:45,640
Wamba and if you want me to or if if

1631
01:56:45,680 --> 01:56:50,079
if you yeah, okay, part will cover. Yeah, we'll cover

1632
01:56:50,119 --> 01:56:52,279
to the onion field and Joseph Wambas. I think that

1633
01:56:52,279 --> 01:56:55,439
that's important stuff. But yeah, I don't see.

1634
01:56:56,279 --> 01:56:58,920
Speaker 1: I mean there were nineteen eighty and nineteen eighty nine

1635
01:56:59,479 --> 01:57:01,800
there were race riots in Miami. I mean I lived

1636
01:57:01,800 --> 01:57:04,119
in Miami for you know, I lived in South Florida

1637
01:57:04,520 --> 01:57:07,680
because of police shootings and and and things. It was.

1638
01:57:08,000 --> 01:57:11,760
I mean, these were precursors to the to what happened

1639
01:57:11,760 --> 01:57:14,239
in l A. And they were bad overtown riots and

1640
01:57:14,319 --> 01:57:17,159
eighty nine I was. I was down there for that and.

1641
01:57:17,479 --> 01:57:20,680
Speaker 2: There was no joke man, nuts man, Yeah, no, I remember.

1642
01:57:20,960 --> 01:57:24,119
It was. It was. It was scary ship oh it was.

1643
01:57:24,760 --> 01:57:29,239
Speaker 1: It was open combat in the streets. It was open streets. Yeah.

1644
01:57:29,640 --> 01:57:33,720
Speaker 2: In Miami too because of cartel ship and other stuff.

1645
01:57:33,720 --> 01:57:36,039
There was like a ton of fucking hardware on the

1646
01:57:36,079 --> 01:57:39,880
street in Miami, man, Like everybody was like teeth, I mean,

1647
01:57:40,399 --> 01:57:46,920
dudes like shooting it out with like like literally.

1648
01:57:47,039 --> 01:57:49,079
Speaker 1: Mac Ten's were like two hundred bucks.

1649
01:57:49,479 --> 01:57:54,000
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah crazy yeah. No, Miami is

1650
01:57:54,239 --> 01:57:58,439
no joke, man, especially then. Yeah, you've been all over

1651
01:57:58,479 --> 01:58:00,680
the South, man, Like that's that's fascinating.

1652
01:58:02,319 --> 01:58:08,760
Speaker 1: But uh, South Florida back in the eighties, cocaine cowboys.

1653
01:58:09,000 --> 01:58:13,159
It was bodies dropping everywhere everywhere.

1654
01:58:13,279 --> 01:58:15,159
Speaker 2: It was like, uh yeah, it was. It was like

1655
01:58:15,199 --> 01:58:18,960
low intensity and sometimes not the low intensity warfare. Man. No,

1656
01:58:19,079 --> 01:58:22,760
my Miami Dade the police department was a serious police

1657
01:58:22,800 --> 01:58:27,800
department too, man, Like, yeah, no doubt, that's fascinating stuff. Man,

1658
01:58:28,000 --> 01:58:30,640
Florida the fancaying state, man, and people like throw shade

1659
01:58:30,640 --> 01:58:33,800
on it, you know, like Florida man, and it's become

1660
01:58:33,880 --> 01:58:37,159
like a meme. I mean, and it's got kind of

1661
01:58:37,159 --> 01:58:40,199
a crazy history going back and something like the Black Seminoles,

1662
01:58:40,399 --> 01:58:43,319
Like you realized the Black Seminoles. It was like it

1663
01:58:43,399 --> 01:58:45,760
was like outlaw white dudes on the run. It was

1664
01:58:45,760 --> 01:58:50,800
like runaway slaves like Indian braves who had been like

1665
01:58:50,880 --> 01:58:53,000
cast out of their tribe whatever, who like became this

1666
01:58:53,079 --> 01:58:55,079
kind of like Mad Max sort of mob. That's what

1667
01:58:55,119 --> 01:58:58,239
the Black Seminoles were. It was like.

1668
01:58:59,359 --> 01:59:02,800
Speaker 1: Florida's Florida has always been insane. I mean, they never

1669
01:59:02,920 --> 01:59:05,680
surrendered in the war and like they know and and

1670
01:59:05,880 --> 01:59:10,720
DC was like, oh, we don't care, we'll leave them.

1671
01:59:10,880 --> 01:59:15,159
Speaker 2: Yeah no, it's it's an insane place. And yeah, yeah, no,

1672
01:59:15,279 --> 01:59:17,520
it's wild. But yeah no, Well we'll do a part

1673
01:59:17,560 --> 01:59:21,239
three then and Wamba and specifically the Onion Field and

1674
01:59:21,640 --> 01:59:24,439
some of his other stuff, and we'll get into like

1675
01:59:24,479 --> 01:59:27,279
the Vietnam War and the LPD culture because they were

1676
01:59:27,279 --> 01:59:31,760
inextricably bound up. But no, this was I'm going I'm

1677
01:59:31,760 --> 01:59:35,039
going to the inauguration in DC on Saturday, but all

1678
01:59:35,720 --> 01:59:37,600
we I'll want to be gone a few days back

1679
01:59:37,600 --> 01:59:39,520
in the twenty second. But if you want to bang

1680
01:59:39,560 --> 01:59:41,079
another one out before we go, or if you want

1681
01:59:41,079 --> 01:59:43,279
to do like movie night, we could do that too,

1682
01:59:43,479 --> 01:59:45,199
or if you want to wait to get big, that's fine.

1683
01:59:45,439 --> 01:59:48,079
Speaker 1: But techno, well, yeah, we'll talk. We'll talk about it.

1684
01:59:48,119 --> 01:59:51,079
I'll text to you later, do quick plugs, and we'll

1685
01:59:51,079 --> 01:59:52,279
get out of here. I gotta go do an o

1686
01:59:52,399 --> 01:59:53,119
GC meeting.

1687
01:59:54,000 --> 01:59:57,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, sir, yeah, Bescially if the fine, he's on Substick.

1688
01:59:57,880 --> 02:00:00,600
We'll launch the season three of the pod in February.

1689
02:00:01,199 --> 02:00:03,439
But there's all kinds of good stuff there, including a

1690
02:00:03,479 --> 02:00:07,439
pretty active chip. It's real Thomas seven seven seven dot

1691
02:00:07,479 --> 02:00:11,680
substick dot com. I'm on social media at Capital R

1692
02:00:11,720 --> 02:00:15,000
E A L Underscore number seven h O A S

1693
02:00:15,000 --> 02:00:21,199
seven seven seven. I'm on uh Instagram, I'm on t

1694
02:00:21,439 --> 02:00:25,520
ram Uh. You can find me on my website Thomas

1695
02:00:25,560 --> 02:00:28,600
seven seven seven dot com. It's at number seven and

1696
02:00:28,680 --> 02:00:31,000
move a T h O M A S seven seven

1697
02:00:31,119 --> 02:00:32,760
seven dot com. That's all I get.

1698
02:00:33,680 --> 02:00:36,800
Speaker 1: All right, thank you have Let's try and record something

1699
02:00:36,840 --> 02:00:38,720
before you leave. But if not, have fun.

1700
02:00:39,560 --> 02:00:41,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, no we will man, Thank you, Waddy.

1701
02:00:42,520 --> 02:00:45,840
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pecamana Show. Thomas.

1702
02:00:45,920 --> 02:00:48,960
Let's finish out this police series. Uh, what'd you want

1703
02:00:48,960 --> 02:00:52,479
to talk about today? I think Joseph wambas in the

1704
02:00:52,560 --> 02:00:53,159
on the menu.

1705
02:00:54,600 --> 02:00:59,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I I marked out Joseph Wamba for a dedicated

1706
02:01:00,800 --> 02:01:07,319
episode because I think he's important. I he wasn't. He's

1707
02:01:07,319 --> 02:01:09,439
still alive. I think he's got to be very elgerly

1708
02:01:09,479 --> 02:01:13,319
not he's got to be on ninety he was very

1709
02:01:13,399 --> 02:01:16,720
much a documentarian, though of the period in which we're

1710
02:01:16,760 --> 02:01:19,520
talking about, when it was in when police modern policing

1711
02:01:19,560 --> 02:01:21,600
was very much in transition, and when arguably it was

1712
02:01:21,640 --> 02:01:26,720
a kind of a dizenith in terms of you know,

1713
02:01:26,840 --> 02:01:33,880
it's administrative clout and it's it being respected kind of

1714
02:01:33,880 --> 02:01:38,319
as an essential institution of government. And Wamba was an

1715
02:01:38,359 --> 02:01:41,319
East Coast guy. He came from Pittsburgh. He was German

1716
02:01:41,359 --> 02:01:44,000
Irish and his dad was a policeman out there. But

1717
02:01:44,119 --> 02:01:47,840
Wamba he joined LAPD when he got out of the

1718
02:01:47,880 --> 02:01:49,800
Marine Corps as a young guy, and I think he

1719
02:01:50,239 --> 02:01:53,520
started about fourteen years as a police you know, from

1720
02:01:53,600 --> 02:01:58,199
nineteen sixty until the mid seventies. But for context, like

1721
02:01:58,279 --> 02:02:02,159
a lot of dudes would all they'd relocate to la

1722
02:02:02,199 --> 02:02:05,600
to join LAPD. LAPD was like the top of policing.

1723
02:02:06,560 --> 02:02:11,199
And one of the things that was peculiar about nineteen

1724
02:02:11,279 --> 02:02:14,039
ninety one and the Rodney King situation, Like it wasn't

1725
02:02:14,079 --> 02:02:17,279
peculiar that that happened. It wasn't peculiar unfortunately that it

1726
02:02:17,399 --> 02:02:20,640
jumped off into this race war. But a lot of

1727
02:02:20,640 --> 02:02:24,239
people don't understand that. Unlike Chicago especially, but also like

1728
02:02:24,319 --> 02:02:26,399
unlike I mean, our police department, we all like a

1729
02:02:26,399 --> 02:02:30,560
thug police department, you know, like we really do. I

1730
02:02:30,640 --> 02:02:36,159
grudgingly like Chicago Feed for reasons. I've got like a

1731
02:02:36,199 --> 02:02:40,560
complicated relationship with them, but uh, they never had They

1732
02:02:40,640 --> 02:02:44,199
always had like a dirty fucking reputation. And New York,

1733
02:02:44,520 --> 02:02:46,399
you know, they always had a reputation as being like

1734
02:02:46,439 --> 02:02:50,319
corrupted by like ward BOSSESM and like mafia politics and stuff.

1735
02:02:51,079 --> 02:02:53,680
But like LA, it was considered to be this like impeccable,

1736
02:02:54,920 --> 02:02:58,000
impeccably professional police force, and they had a wrap for

1737
02:02:58,119 --> 02:03:01,000
like not being quote unquote recently and like they actually

1738
02:03:01,000 --> 02:03:04,840
had a rep for you know being you know, very

1739
02:03:04,840 --> 02:03:09,039
progressive according to the relevant metrics. I don't like that term,

1740
02:03:09,119 --> 02:03:12,520
but you know, just people understand what I mean. I'm sure.

1741
02:03:13,159 --> 02:03:15,079
So the fact that this like kind of took a

1742
02:03:15,159 --> 02:03:20,079
nose dive in the early nineties is interesting, you know,

1743
02:03:20,199 --> 02:03:24,239
but that's Wambach started writing when he was a cop,

1744
02:03:24,319 --> 02:03:27,680
and his first his first book was The New Centurions,

1745
02:03:28,000 --> 02:03:30,119
which is very much kind of like Approbe. It's almost

1746
02:03:30,199 --> 02:03:33,760
like the top gun of like the police Department. You know,

1747
02:03:33,800 --> 02:03:36,520
it's about like hero cops doing this crazy stuff like

1748
02:03:36,560 --> 02:03:38,119
a lot of and the centerpiece is kind of the

1749
02:03:38,159 --> 02:03:42,560
watch riots and then he wrote The Blue Night, which

1750
02:03:42,600 --> 02:03:44,880
was very much in that vein. But then like when

1751
02:03:44,880 --> 02:03:46,840
he when he realized he could get paid as an

1752
02:03:46,880 --> 02:03:52,319
author and his books were actually moving at volume, you know,

1753
02:03:52,399 --> 02:03:54,760
he retired away from the police department to write, and

1754
02:03:54,800 --> 02:03:57,439
then he wrote The Choir Boys, which is like this

1755
02:03:57,560 --> 02:04:02,079
kind of savage takedown of lapd you know it like

1756
02:04:02,119 --> 02:04:04,079
people get read to Catch twenty two, which I think

1757
02:04:04,159 --> 02:04:06,800
is an overrated book, but it's like way nastier than that.

1758
02:04:06,800 --> 02:04:09,439
It reminds me of the short Timers. It's like really

1759
02:04:09,479 --> 02:04:14,359
really nasty, but but not in a way that's unduly tunaive.

1760
02:04:14,439 --> 02:04:16,840
I think it actually reflects the eraror. I mean it

1761
02:04:16,920 --> 02:04:19,920
was before my time. You know, my civic memory begins

1762
02:04:19,960 --> 02:04:22,199
in the very early eighties. I don't remember the seventies.

1763
02:04:22,239 --> 02:04:27,880
I was born in the seventies. But in between that

1764
02:04:27,960 --> 02:04:30,920
kind of trilogy of fiction books, like later we started

1765
02:04:30,920 --> 02:04:34,199
writing kind of like hard boiled detective stuff. But in

1766
02:04:34,239 --> 02:04:36,640
between Nat he wrote this seminal. It's probably the it's

1767
02:04:36,640 --> 02:04:39,600
probably the seminal true crime book after in Cold Blood.

1768
02:04:39,640 --> 02:04:43,520
It was It's the Onion Field, which was a horrible case,

1769
02:04:44,520 --> 02:04:47,960
and uh Wamba was a was a police when this

1770
02:04:48,199 --> 02:04:54,880
incident happened. And uh, I'll get into the details of

1771
02:04:54,920 --> 02:04:59,720
it in a minute, but it these two police offers

1772
02:05:00,039 --> 02:05:02,600
ofs and was were abducted and murdered or one of

1773
02:05:02,640 --> 02:05:05,119
them was murdered, the other one got away. The guy

1774
02:05:05,199 --> 02:05:08,359
got away. It's almost like he endured a fate worse

1775
02:05:08,399 --> 02:05:13,920
than had he been murdered, you know. But that and

1776
02:05:14,039 --> 02:05:16,359
the film version. They made a TV movie out of it,

1777
02:05:16,399 --> 02:05:18,159
which one of which one of was one of James

1778
02:05:18,159 --> 02:05:22,399
Woods's first roles. And James Woods, the guy he plays

1779
02:05:23,520 --> 02:05:26,720
the cop killer was this guy named Gregory Ulis Powell.

1780
02:05:27,640 --> 02:05:29,960
Like if that's not like an old school comic name,

1781
02:05:30,000 --> 02:05:32,800
I don't know what it is. But Woods, they looked

1782
02:05:32,800 --> 02:05:37,880
exactly like to do. It was like uncanny, and you

1783
02:05:37,960 --> 02:05:45,920
know it. Uh, Parker was a LAPD chief when this

1784
02:05:45,960 --> 02:05:48,840
went down. And Parker, for all of his kind of

1785
02:05:51,079 --> 02:05:52,920
for all the good things we can say about him,

1786
02:05:52,920 --> 02:05:56,439
he really really mismanaged the aftermath of this situation. And

1787
02:05:56,479 --> 02:06:02,800
then it's interesting how, you know, despite the I'm the

1788
02:06:02,840 --> 02:06:07,359
first one to suggest that it's ridiculous, and people talk

1789
02:06:07,439 --> 02:06:11,640
about how, oh, in the pre Kennedy assassination era that

1790
02:06:11,680 --> 02:06:14,199
we lived in simple times or something like America was

1791
02:06:14,239 --> 02:06:18,880
totally fucking flure. There were no simple times, especially when

1792
02:06:18,880 --> 02:06:21,079
you're talking about America, which is like literally born out

1793
02:06:21,079 --> 02:06:25,199
of like race war, Like that's ridiculous. However, there was

1794
02:06:25,239 --> 02:06:28,960
a weird randomness to violence and particularly homicide that very

1795
02:06:29,039 --> 02:06:35,119
suddenly jumped off and endured in absolute earnest for about

1796
02:06:35,159 --> 02:06:39,119
thirty five years, and then very very suddenly stopped. I

1797
02:06:39,199 --> 02:06:41,159
kind of think of like the last incident of that

1798
02:06:41,239 --> 02:06:46,560
cycle in terms of perception and media narrative as Columbine okay,

1799
02:06:47,560 --> 02:06:50,159
and like it just like dropped off suddenly, like nobody

1800
02:06:50,199 --> 02:06:53,239
can explain it, you know, like the freakonomics types that

1801
02:06:53,279 --> 02:06:55,680
book's kind of fallen off would thankfully because it it's

1802
02:06:55,720 --> 02:07:00,399
an idiotic book. But the refrain of the kinds of

1803
02:07:00,479 --> 02:07:03,760
lefty progressives was, oh well, Roe v. Wade meant that,

1804
02:07:04,079 --> 02:07:07,479
you know, unwanted children weren't born, so all these kinds

1805
02:07:07,520 --> 02:07:11,960
of social pathologies that that would have afflicted this this

1806
02:07:12,079 --> 02:07:16,159
population that didn't exist. You know, we're absent. So you

1807
02:07:16,199 --> 02:07:19,359
know that that's why. That doesn't explain why, and it's

1808
02:07:19,399 --> 02:07:24,840
not you know, there there were many population booms to

1809
02:07:24,920 --> 02:07:28,760
immigration and only to other things, particularly glocalized. And this

1810
02:07:28,840 --> 02:07:31,640
hasn't like duplicated, like it doesn't make any sense. It's

1811
02:07:31,800 --> 02:07:34,319
it's I mean, I have my own thoughts on why

1812
02:07:34,399 --> 02:07:37,800
these kinds of things happened that, but that's probably you know,

1813
02:07:37,840 --> 02:07:42,079
mostly probably dismissed it as overly metaphysical because it may

1814
02:07:42,239 --> 02:07:45,600
like the Onion Field case, it very much like like

1815
02:07:45,680 --> 02:07:48,279
even more so than the Kidy Genevi's incident, which is

1816
02:07:49,239 --> 02:07:51,479
which has kind of been like mythologized and there's a

1817
02:07:51,479 --> 02:07:53,920
lot of cap around what actually happened there. You know,

1818
02:07:53,920 --> 02:07:56,399
that was that poor woman who was assaulted and like

1819
02:07:56,520 --> 02:07:58,880
stabbed to death in front of our neighbors, and nobody

1820
02:07:58,880 --> 02:08:02,600
did anything and nobody called it in. I mean, granted

1821
02:08:02,640 --> 02:08:05,079
that was particularly awful because she was truly like a

1822
02:08:05,119 --> 02:08:09,479
defenseless female, But the Onion Field situations ned more brazen

1823
02:08:09,560 --> 02:08:12,640
because like these guys they just like murdered a cop

1824
02:08:13,079 --> 02:08:15,399
and like the sub Keebles didn't do like that. I mean, yeah,

1825
02:08:15,439 --> 02:08:18,039
there's the public enemy's era, Like some decades before guys

1826
02:08:18,079 --> 02:08:20,079
would like shoot it out with the police, but it's

1827
02:08:20,119 --> 02:08:22,520
like straight up in cold blood like murdering a cop,

1828
02:08:22,640 --> 02:08:24,439
like shooting him in the face when you didn't have

1829
02:08:24,520 --> 02:08:27,560
to like that.

1830
02:08:26,680 --> 02:08:30,319
Speaker 1: That really, like, you know, I grew up with a

1831
02:08:30,399 --> 02:08:33,880
lot a lot of guys who went NYPD, and when

1832
02:08:33,920 --> 02:08:37,319
you talk to them about people who kill cops, they say,

1833
02:08:37,359 --> 02:08:40,199
the reason they take it more seriously is because if

1834
02:08:40,199 --> 02:08:42,399
they're willing to kill a cop, they're willing to kill anyone.

1835
02:08:43,319 --> 02:08:48,399
Speaker 2: And Powell was a really creepy guy, like he his rep.

1836
02:08:48,520 --> 02:08:50,880
He was just like really real sad sack, kind of

1837
02:08:51,000 --> 02:08:54,039
loser hood guy who went by Jimmy Youngblood. He had

1838
02:08:54,039 --> 02:08:56,640
like forty names. I think it's his burname with Jimmy

1839
02:08:56,720 --> 02:09:01,000
Lee Smith, but he went by Jimmy Youngblood. Jimmy Youngblood.

1840
02:09:01,079 --> 02:09:04,760
He was a heroin addict and he'd been spending basically

1841
02:09:04,800 --> 02:09:07,159
his entire old life in prison, but it was for bullshit,

1842
02:09:07,239 --> 02:09:09,840
you know, like stealing radios and like breaking into cars

1843
02:09:10,560 --> 02:09:14,680
and like robbing. People said he could get dope, you know,

1844
02:09:14,720 --> 02:09:16,720
and Powell really kind of like roped them into this

1845
02:09:16,800 --> 02:09:20,399
like psycho stuff, you know. And that's not just a

1846
02:09:21,279 --> 02:09:24,479
that's not just the cop out at trial. Those dynamic

1847
02:09:24,560 --> 02:09:26,960
there really are dynamics like that. There's another thing as

1848
02:09:26,960 --> 02:09:29,760
like a partnership of equals between rappies who do bizarre

1849
02:09:29,840 --> 02:09:36,039
violent crimes. It's always and Powell too. He he didn't

1850
02:09:36,039 --> 02:09:38,840
have a traditional criminal background, Like he was raised in

1851
02:09:38,920 --> 02:09:44,000
some crummy suburb of Detroit. His father was a musician,

1852
02:09:44,239 --> 02:09:49,319
this itinerant musician, and they never had any money. But

1853
02:09:49,359 --> 02:09:51,840
Powell ran away from the home when he was fourteen

1854
02:09:51,920 --> 02:09:55,319
or fifteen, and he took up with this kind of fake,

1855
02:09:55,680 --> 02:10:01,079
a tinerant priest who molested him, totally screwed him up.

1856
02:10:01,119 --> 02:10:04,319
So after that, Powell would like he periodically decided he

1857
02:10:04,399 --> 02:10:07,359
was gay, even though like by the time he was arrested,

1858
02:10:07,399 --> 02:10:09,359
he had like a wife who was pregnant with his kid.

1859
02:10:09,760 --> 02:10:11,800
But then Powell goes to prison. First it was a

1860
02:10:11,920 --> 02:10:15,399
death row, and then he got manumitted, you know when

1861
02:10:15,880 --> 02:10:21,079
when the Supreme Court struck down the death penalty, you know,

1862
02:10:21,119 --> 02:10:26,479
and he got in in typo California fashion. There was

1863
02:10:26,520 --> 02:10:29,239
a couple of retrials, but he ended up serving a

1864
02:10:29,279 --> 02:10:33,199
life without parole. Okay, he had a couple of parole

1865
02:10:33,239 --> 02:10:35,359
hearings decades on, but I mean there was no chance

1866
02:10:35,399 --> 02:10:39,000
he was gonna get a conditional release. But when he

1867
02:10:39,039 --> 02:10:41,359
was behind the wall, he decided he was like full

1868
02:10:41,399 --> 02:10:43,760
on gay, and he started like writing for like gay

1869
02:10:43,840 --> 02:10:46,760
rights publications and stuff. It was like an early example

1870
02:10:46,800 --> 02:10:50,600
of like the gay movement having horrible optics because in

1871
02:10:50,960 --> 02:10:53,800
one of their rags that I guess was pretty widely

1872
02:10:53,800 --> 02:10:55,960
circulated in the West Coast in the seventies and eighties,

1873
02:10:56,000 --> 02:10:58,119
it's like, why do you have this like cop killer

1874
02:10:58,239 --> 02:11:01,279
like drawing little cartoons and writing for you so then

1875
02:11:02,199 --> 02:11:05,359
you know something like pulled that stuff. But you know,

1876
02:11:05,479 --> 02:11:11,119
just like a bizarre guy. And he when he when

1877
02:11:11,159 --> 02:11:16,600
he committed this murder, like apparently as a young guy,

1878
02:11:17,119 --> 02:11:19,800
like he did a bunch of he did a bunch

1879
02:11:19,840 --> 02:11:23,600
of felony stints for armed robbery because his thing was

1880
02:11:23,600 --> 02:11:26,359
like robbing liquor stores and grocery stores. Like he didn't

1881
02:11:26,359 --> 02:11:28,279
have a dope have or anything. He was like doing

1882
02:11:28,319 --> 02:11:32,960
this stuff. And he'd apparently had brain surgery that's it's

1883
02:11:33,000 --> 02:11:36,760
now believed was botched, and like he it basically like

1884
02:11:36,920 --> 02:11:41,319
fried his his impulse control. And I think today with

1885
02:11:42,039 --> 02:11:45,880
you know, modern imaging equipment and stuff, it would probably

1886
02:11:45,920 --> 02:11:48,720
be clear that this guy's brain was a wreck, like

1887
02:11:48,720 --> 02:11:52,960
his physical brain, because his criminal career doesn't make any sense.

1888
02:11:53,000 --> 02:11:56,439
And also just like the sexual stuff, like doesn't really

1889
02:11:56,520 --> 02:12:04,840
track and but he he Uh, Jimmy young Blood was

1890
02:12:04,880 --> 02:12:09,640
on was on parole and he was in this program

1891
02:12:10,760 --> 02:12:14,439
before method on was widely prescribed and before stuff like

1892
02:12:14,920 --> 02:12:19,199
sub attacks. There's this really strange compound that that apparently

1893
02:12:21,000 --> 02:12:25,359
had really deleterious effects on internal organ and things that

1894
02:12:25,399 --> 02:12:27,600
they were trying to give to heroin addicts because it

1895
02:12:27,640 --> 02:12:29,439
was kind of like the shot the alcoholics, but it

1896
02:12:29,479 --> 02:12:34,840
didn't really work. But young Blood was conditionally paroled and

1897
02:12:34,880 --> 02:12:36,560
he was he was able to go to this medical

1898
02:12:36,600 --> 02:12:38,720
center for parole league or they shoot him up with

1899
02:12:38,760 --> 02:12:43,439
this with this compound and that supposedly would would hear

1900
02:12:43,520 --> 02:12:47,039
him of his of his habit. And he ran across

1901
02:12:47,119 --> 02:12:50,479
Powell because Powell, along other bizarre things like Powell was

1902
02:12:50,520 --> 02:12:54,039
married to a white woman and his whole family was white,

1903
02:12:54,079 --> 02:12:58,640
but Powell basically exclusively hung around black folks, which is weird.

1904
02:12:59,119 --> 02:13:01,119
I mean, it's weird today, it was really weird in

1905
02:13:01,199 --> 02:13:04,720
nineteen sixty. But that's how young Blood ran into him.

1906
02:13:05,359 --> 02:13:07,920
And uh, he was pulling a heist with this degenerate

1907
02:13:07,920 --> 02:13:11,479
alcohol like like a hobo who was a part time

1908
02:13:11,800 --> 02:13:17,000
like shoe shine man and Powell somehow I mean presuma.

1909
02:13:17,039 --> 02:13:19,359
It was not really clear, but presumably it was because

1910
02:13:20,680 --> 02:13:23,359
young Blood needed money for dope that he got. He

1911
02:13:23,439 --> 02:13:27,359
got sucked into this nonsense of like pulling these like

1912
02:13:27,439 --> 02:13:30,319
Hindsted heights, like liquor stores and stuff or what amounts

1913
02:13:30,359 --> 02:13:37,920
to chump change. So their pads crossed with these cops

1914
02:13:40,840 --> 02:13:48,159
because one night, uh paula Youngblood, we cruising uh Los Angeles,

1915
02:13:48,399 --> 02:13:53,359
like presumably they were casing, you know, a place to rob,

1916
02:13:54,159 --> 02:13:55,800
you know, and they had this They had this ancient

1917
02:13:56,000 --> 02:13:59,479
nineteen forty six Ford coop, you know, like an old

1918
02:13:59,520 --> 02:14:01,840
gangster movies, you know, like it's it's got that like

1919
02:14:02,039 --> 02:14:06,359
sloped trunk and stuff, you know, if you know what

1920
02:14:06,399 --> 02:14:12,479
old Fords look like. And these two police, uh Ian

1921
02:14:12,600 --> 02:14:16,600
Campbell and Carl Hedinger. Campbell was the guy woended up

1922
02:14:16,640 --> 02:14:22,000
getting blasted and murdered, and you know, both young guys. Campbell,

1923
02:14:22,000 --> 02:14:24,800
if I memory series, was a Korean war vet, and

1924
02:14:24,840 --> 02:14:29,279
he was the older man. He was a Scottish type

1925
02:14:29,319 --> 02:14:32,039
guy like he played he literally played bagpipes, you know,

1926
02:14:34,760 --> 02:14:37,239
like a real heroic guy, you know, and and heading

1927
02:14:37,279 --> 02:14:40,239
Gerr obviously looked up to him. But they were they

1928
02:14:40,239 --> 02:14:45,359
were assigned to this March ninth, sixty three. They were

1929
02:14:45,359 --> 02:14:48,920
assigned to his duty and you know, in playing clothes

1930
02:14:49,880 --> 02:14:53,279
like you know, basically aggressive policing of the old type,

1931
02:14:53,359 --> 02:14:56,239
you know, and before surveillance tech, like you basically just

1932
02:14:56,279 --> 02:15:03,439
like look out for you know, possible possible subjects like

1933
02:15:03,479 --> 02:15:06,199
you know, like in like on the make or whatever.

1934
02:15:07,000 --> 02:15:09,439
You know. So they pulled over young Blood and Powell,

1935
02:15:10,119 --> 02:15:14,039
and Powell just suddenly like drew down on him. You

1936
02:15:14,079 --> 02:15:18,199
got the jump on him on Campbell and this is

1937
02:15:18,399 --> 02:15:24,800
key head Injurer. Uh had drawn his service revolver and

1938
02:15:27,159 --> 02:15:30,560
he refused to give it up until Campbell said he's

1939
02:15:30,600 --> 02:15:33,000
got a gun on me, meaning Powell, you know, give

1940
02:15:33,079 --> 02:15:39,119
up your weapon. And l EPD doctrine at that time

1941
02:15:39,279 --> 02:15:42,560
was that if somebody gets to drop on you, give

1942
02:15:42,640 --> 02:15:45,319
up your weapon, because nobody's going to kill a cop

1943
02:15:45,359 --> 02:15:47,720
for no reason, you know, like that was the thinking.

1944
02:15:51,279 --> 02:15:55,920
So then uh, Powell, he gets in the front seat,

1945
02:15:56,359 --> 02:16:00,039
he orders Campbell to drive his car. Young Blood he

1946
02:16:00,039 --> 02:16:02,279
gets in the back with Headinger, and I think young

1947
02:16:02,279 --> 02:16:06,039
Blood had a sowd off shotgun, you know. So then

1948
02:16:06,079 --> 02:16:09,960
Powell was just like drive, you know, and Campbell's like

1949
02:16:10,199 --> 02:16:13,800
where are we going? And Powell's like, just drive, you know.

1950
02:16:13,840 --> 02:16:15,880
He's like, I'm not gonna hurt you guys, but you

1951
02:16:16,000 --> 02:16:17,479
just got to drive. We got to get out of

1952
02:16:17,479 --> 02:16:20,720
the city. So he drives them all the way to

1953
02:16:20,760 --> 02:16:26,359
Baker's Field and he stops. Finally, he orders Campbell to stop,

1954
02:16:26,560 --> 02:16:32,440
literally in this onion field. And Headinger said that like,

1955
02:16:32,559 --> 02:16:34,639
even before they stop, he's like it was pitch play.

1956
02:16:34,680 --> 02:16:38,040
He couldn't see anything, but he's like the overwhelming odor

1957
02:16:38,079 --> 02:16:40,600
of onions. He's like it was making everybody's eyes tear up.

1958
02:16:40,639 --> 02:16:46,760
You think it was surreal. So they stop, Powell orders

1959
02:16:46,799 --> 02:16:54,360
everybody out, and then, according to both young Blood and Headinger,

1960
02:16:55,680 --> 02:16:58,120
Pawell look Campbell in the face and he says, are

1961
02:16:58,120 --> 02:17:02,120
you familiar with the Lindenberg Law. It's not clear what

1962
02:17:02,159 --> 02:17:05,280
he meant by that, Like, presumably he was referring to

1963
02:17:05,319 --> 02:17:09,879
the federal kidnapping statue, which kind of colopially, I guess

1964
02:17:09,920 --> 02:17:14,040
would have been the Lindenberg Law. And that was a

1965
02:17:14,040 --> 02:17:17,680
big deal because after Lindberg Baby, that's another horrible case.

1966
02:17:18,120 --> 02:17:22,399
After the after Lindberg's son, infant son was killed by

1967
02:17:22,760 --> 02:17:28,000
ransom kidnappers, you know, a federal statute was passed that

1968
02:17:28,479 --> 02:17:31,319
you know, imposed there was no there was no open

1969
02:17:31,399 --> 02:17:35,760
ended federal death penalty, but kidnapping for ransdom became a

1970
02:17:35,799 --> 02:17:39,280
death penalty offense after that. So presumably in like the

1971
02:17:39,360 --> 02:17:45,559
warped and like mangled mind of Powell, his notion was,

1972
02:17:45,639 --> 02:17:48,000
I don't want to waste you, but I have to

1973
02:17:48,159 --> 02:17:51,840
now because I kidnapped you, which makes zero sense. Then

1974
02:17:51,840 --> 02:17:55,079
he doesn't blast him in the face. He like, I

1975
02:17:55,280 --> 02:17:58,000
think he had like a twenty five automatic. He just

1976
02:17:58,040 --> 02:18:00,520
like emptied the magazine into him.

1977
02:18:01,280 --> 02:18:01,680
Speaker 1: And.

1978
02:18:05,159 --> 02:18:08,399
Speaker 2: Headinger related he heard somebody screaming, and He's like, at

1979
02:18:08,399 --> 02:18:10,360
first out it was Campbell. Then I realized it was

1980
02:18:10,399 --> 02:18:14,319
young Blood. Like young Blood just like freaked out and

1981
02:18:15,280 --> 02:18:17,959
presumab would save it head Inur's life because young Blood

1982
02:18:18,040 --> 02:18:21,719
was like panic panicking, and he didn't blast him. So

1983
02:18:21,799 --> 02:18:26,719
Hedinger ran for literally four miles and there was some kid,

1984
02:18:28,239 --> 02:18:33,799
some uh, some black kid who was getting an early start,

1985
02:18:33,879 --> 02:18:36,159
like some farm hand, you know, like three in the morning,

1986
02:18:36,840 --> 02:18:38,959
you know, had and told him what happened, and then

1987
02:18:40,159 --> 02:18:43,680
you know, he he called for help and everything. But

1988
02:18:45,680 --> 02:18:50,479
the way that dealt with Headinger, Parker forced him to

1989
02:18:50,600 --> 02:18:55,079
address like police academy classes. He forced into a dress

1990
02:18:55,200 --> 02:19:01,159
like squad rooms full of street officers, like basically reliving

1991
02:19:01,200 --> 02:19:04,319
what had happened to him and then having the watch

1992
02:19:04,319 --> 02:19:06,440
commander say, see, this is why you never give up

1993
02:19:06,479 --> 02:19:09,360
your weapon. You'll end up like him, I mean, like

1994
02:19:09,440 --> 02:19:13,719
basically torturing the guy, you know, under auspices. I mean,

1995
02:19:13,760 --> 02:19:15,399
I think Parker was that of too, so I think

1996
02:19:15,440 --> 02:19:18,280
he didn't realize what was wrong with this, and then

1997
02:19:18,280 --> 02:19:20,920
he put him on coaching duty as his personal driver

1998
02:19:22,639 --> 02:19:26,799
and headingers prodective. We started losing his mind, you know,

1999
02:19:26,840 --> 02:19:28,479
and he didn't know what it handlecks. On the one hand,

2000
02:19:28,520 --> 02:19:31,159
everybody like pitied him. On the other hand, they treated

2001
02:19:31,200 --> 02:19:33,040
him with this kind of like haughty contempt, like he

2002
02:19:33,120 --> 02:19:37,600
was some kind of pussy or something, and he gave

2003
02:19:37,680 --> 02:19:41,079
him a very sad end. He ended up getting dismissed

2004
02:19:41,120 --> 02:19:46,319
from the police department because he was he was doing

2005
02:19:46,360 --> 02:19:49,799
bizarre things, including like shoplifting worthless items, and it was

2006
02:19:49,879 --> 02:19:54,239
obvious that and he said, like the guy like blew

2007
02:19:54,239 --> 02:19:57,280
a gasket, I mean obviously not to be flippant or

2008
02:19:57,399 --> 02:20:01,159
mean about it. You know. He ended up up ended

2009
02:20:01,200 --> 02:20:03,719
up working as a gardener and then like drinking himself

2010
02:20:03,719 --> 02:20:06,440
to death in middle age. Like in the nineties. You know,

2011
02:20:07,200 --> 02:20:11,920
this is like a horrible situation, but that one of

2012
02:20:12,000 --> 02:20:15,319
the one of the this maybe huge impact on the

2013
02:20:15,360 --> 02:20:19,280
public consciouness, but particularly police and the cultural policing. It

2014
02:20:19,360 --> 02:20:23,319
was already going in kind of a strange direction anyway, okay,

2015
02:20:23,360 --> 02:20:27,520
And that that's really what that's really kind of what

2016
02:20:27,680 --> 02:20:33,239
put over the idea of like paramilitarized policing, you know,

2017
02:20:33,239 --> 02:20:35,760
and that stuff like the Watts riots like solidified it.

2018
02:20:36,559 --> 02:20:40,840
You know, like for context. During Watts there there was

2019
02:20:40,840 --> 02:20:44,639
like snipers taking up positions to like blast cops. You know.

2020
02:20:44,680 --> 02:20:50,479
It was like urban combat, you know. And Wallah makes

2021
02:20:50,479 --> 02:20:53,280
a big deal in the Choir Boys. By the nineteen seventies,

2022
02:20:56,200 --> 02:21:00,680
a lot of police departments, including a p D, had

2023
02:21:00,719 --> 02:21:04,280
adopted the commander rank. And he thought that this was

2024
02:21:04,319 --> 02:21:09,000
really bad, you know. And it's the subjects of the

2025
02:21:09,079 --> 02:21:11,920
Choir Boys. It opens up in Vietnam and two of

2026
02:21:11,959 --> 02:21:14,280
the two of the cops, two of the choir Boys,

2027
02:21:15,600 --> 02:21:20,040
they're they have this terrifying experience for their hiding from

2028
02:21:20,040 --> 02:21:23,799
the North Vietnamese Army in a cave like outside of Kusan.

2029
02:21:25,479 --> 02:21:25,639
Speaker 1: You know.

2030
02:21:25,719 --> 02:21:28,239
Speaker 2: The one man is a panic attack and and then

2031
02:21:28,360 --> 02:21:31,840
years later, you know, like five years later, when he's

2032
02:21:31,840 --> 02:21:39,159
on duty with UH with L A p D. You know,

2033
02:21:39,159 --> 02:21:42,120
he has a flashback and he and and there's a

2034
02:21:42,159 --> 02:21:45,319
horrible outcome because he ends up blasting this this unarmed

2035
02:21:45,319 --> 02:21:50,360
civilian and ruining his life. But uh, all the choir

2036
02:21:50,440 --> 02:21:53,239
boys who are the subject of the book, they're all

2037
02:21:53,360 --> 02:21:56,719
these kind of like these kind of like prestige characters

2038
02:21:56,719 --> 02:21:59,319
of different archetypes that were on l A p D

2039
02:21:59,440 --> 02:22:01,920
at the time. But all of them except got of

2040
02:22:01,959 --> 02:22:05,079
the old head he's around fifty, who's still a beat

2041
02:22:05,120 --> 02:22:10,680
cop just because that's where he's comfortable. They're all Vietnam vets,

2042
02:22:10,719 --> 02:22:15,040
and they're all unhinged. They've all got like a head

2043
02:22:15,079 --> 02:22:20,000
full of war and they are of LAPD. They act

2044
02:22:20,000 --> 02:22:22,520
that we sought out guys who had experienced and non

2045
02:22:23,399 --> 02:22:27,600
that wasn't accidental. Some of that went on here too.

2046
02:22:28,559 --> 02:22:30,959
I'm not even saying that was misguided on his own terrors,

2047
02:22:31,040 --> 02:22:35,239
but the way I questioned some of the motives for that,

2048
02:22:36,079 --> 02:22:40,479
Like John Burge, you know, who was a fucking menace

2049
02:22:40,760 --> 02:22:45,680
like here. You know, Berg tortured a bunch of confessions

2050
02:22:45,719 --> 02:22:47,840
out of people like and a lot of these guys

2051
02:22:47,879 --> 02:22:52,399
like hadn't done anything. But Burge. Burge was an MP

2052
02:22:52,600 --> 02:22:55,000
and NOM, but he was involved in all kinds of

2053
02:22:55,040 --> 02:22:58,760
strange stuff and he had a bronze star with the

2054
02:22:58,799 --> 02:23:03,200
valor device. He'd been in the action. But he also

2055
02:23:04,360 --> 02:23:07,440
a lot of his duty involved enhanced interrogation of Viet

2056
02:23:07,479 --> 02:23:10,639
Cong suspects. You know. So this man had a skill

2057
02:23:10,719 --> 02:23:13,920
set that for the nineteen seventies police department, it was

2058
02:23:14,000 --> 02:23:17,000
very much in demand. You know. And while I've always

2059
02:23:17,000 --> 02:23:22,079
makes the point in the Choir Boys especially, but in

2060
02:23:22,120 --> 02:23:25,120
a lot of his other stuff, you know, he's like

2061
02:23:25,399 --> 02:23:30,399
a police department's basically a political administration. He's like, you

2062
02:23:30,600 --> 02:23:34,319
have it. It has to be visible because the voters want.

2063
02:23:34,959 --> 02:23:37,079
The voters want to be able to call somebody if

2064
02:23:37,120 --> 02:23:39,399
not to be crassed, like their kids walking to school

2065
02:23:39,399 --> 02:23:41,200
and he runs about some guy jaking off in the

2066
02:23:41,239 --> 02:23:44,520
bushes or something. Okay, they want to believe it's some

2067
02:23:44,600 --> 02:23:49,559
kind of like formal recourse for that. But like the

2068
02:23:49,639 --> 02:23:53,719
police can't solve sociological problems, like the police can't solve

2069
02:23:53,799 --> 02:23:56,360
like a race war. The police can't make people like

2070
02:23:56,680 --> 02:24:00,360
not use drugs, like this isn't something, this isn't like

2071
02:24:00,520 --> 02:24:03,280
these aren't criminal matters. I mean, they can become that way.

2072
02:24:04,239 --> 02:24:07,680
But it's like Wahabbah's all points. So in the choir boys, basically,

2073
02:24:07,760 --> 02:24:11,520
these guys have an impossible job and some of them

2074
02:24:11,520 --> 02:24:13,360
are just like goons who want their name to ring

2075
02:24:13,399 --> 02:24:15,959
out and they just like to fuck people up. Like

2076
02:24:16,040 --> 02:24:19,920
some of them are like like nineteen sixties idealist boomer

2077
02:24:19,959 --> 02:24:22,280
types who think that like, oh, well, you know, if

2078
02:24:22,319 --> 02:24:24,159
you can if you can bring some kind of diplomacy

2079
02:24:24,200 --> 02:24:30,319
and understanding, you know, the officer civilian interaction, and then

2080
02:24:30,319 --> 02:24:33,200
we can have like a more peaceable community. But it's

2081
02:24:33,200 --> 02:24:35,920
like that's not the police's job either, you know. So

2082
02:24:37,399 --> 02:24:40,440
the recurring motif and wlahah blah stuff is like cops

2083
02:24:40,520 --> 02:24:43,879
and commit suicide because they just become like they just

2084
02:24:43,879 --> 02:24:47,239
like crash the fuck out, and especially them, that's the

2085
02:24:47,319 --> 02:24:50,799
very real thing, you know, and it's some walla blah

2086
02:24:50,840 --> 02:24:55,280
makes the point. You know, in the sixties or seventies

2087
02:24:56,200 --> 02:24:59,200
when all this crazy stuff was happening, even if you

2088
02:24:59,319 --> 02:25:01,879
survived twenty years as like a beat cop, like you

2089
02:25:01,879 --> 02:25:04,920
don't get shot, you don't get like maimed, you know,

2090
02:25:04,959 --> 02:25:06,879
you get like your full pension. He's like, oh, be fine.

2091
02:25:07,079 --> 02:25:09,719
Now I'm like retired, but I'm like forty one years old,

2092
02:25:10,159 --> 02:25:11,600
Like what I'm gonna do is with my life, And

2093
02:25:11,639 --> 02:25:13,639
a lot of these guys were divorced by then. They

2094
02:25:13,639 --> 02:25:16,440
got a drinking problem. It's like something like sit around

2095
02:25:16,479 --> 02:25:18,319
my house and like drink a lot, Like how many

2096
02:25:18,319 --> 02:25:22,879
fishing trips can you possibly take? Like it's not it's not.

2097
02:25:23,799 --> 02:25:25,959
Being like a big city cop is not a good

2098
02:25:26,120 --> 02:25:28,120
way to go through life, you know, and like I'm not,

2099
02:25:29,159 --> 02:25:31,959
I'm not I'm like trashing guys whose life shook out

2100
02:25:32,000 --> 02:25:34,719
that way. Like there's a lot of polices who like

2101
02:25:34,840 --> 02:25:39,959
follow my content and stuff and that's great, but you know,

2102
02:25:40,000 --> 02:25:45,399
while I'm like he basically, uh, there's always a stock

2103
02:25:45,520 --> 02:25:48,559
character in his novels or something like older guy who

2104
02:25:48,600 --> 02:25:50,879
like helps rookies understand I used to survive like in

2105
02:25:50,879 --> 02:25:53,239
the deep hood and how you can like make it

2106
02:25:53,280 --> 02:25:57,280
to twenty years. But then these guys like well, like

2107
02:25:57,440 --> 02:25:59,559
you know, three months after they retire, everybody gets a

2108
02:25:59,559 --> 02:26:02,600
word like blew their fucking brains out. And while boy

2109
02:26:02,639 --> 02:26:05,959
he kind of would hint around it because he, you know,

2110
02:26:06,079 --> 02:26:11,079
was like a reserved guy, but you know, he said,

2111
02:26:11,079 --> 02:26:13,719
there's a reason why like I left the police force

2112
02:26:13,799 --> 02:26:16,479
immediately when I started making money from writings. He's like,

2113
02:26:16,600 --> 02:26:18,239
I was gonna end up like one of those guys,

2114
02:26:19,319 --> 02:26:24,000
you know, And that's that's pretty that's pretty that's pretty

2115
02:26:24,040 --> 02:26:30,639
bleak man. But uh, the what significant too is is

2116
02:26:30,840 --> 02:26:37,719
what like a microcosm it is of of then versus now,

2117
02:26:38,360 --> 02:26:39,840
you know, And that's one of one of the reasons

2118
02:26:39,879 --> 02:26:45,559
for I mean, obviously the these these these horrible people

2119
02:26:45,799 --> 02:26:52,639
in government and and these in geo radicals and and

2120
02:26:52,760 --> 02:26:56,280
others he shall not be named, you know that they

2121
02:26:56,360 --> 02:26:59,760
obviously sees on stuff like like like the George Floyd situation,

2122
02:27:00,280 --> 02:27:04,360
you know, as a kind of detonation strategy. But the

2123
02:27:04,399 --> 02:27:07,840
reason why they're able to do that is because policing

2124
02:27:07,879 --> 02:27:14,159
as it's been conceptualized really from the mid twentieth century onward,

2125
02:27:14,319 --> 02:27:17,920
like that's that's that's dead, like that's obsolescent, you know,

2126
02:27:18,040 --> 02:27:21,920
like it doesn't you know, if we've said what Alma

2127
02:27:22,079 --> 02:27:24,719
said about it being basically a political function and a

2128
02:27:24,799 --> 02:27:28,360
kind of like sociological theater, like people don't respond to

2129
02:27:28,399 --> 02:27:31,079
it that way anymore. And also like do you like

2130
02:27:31,239 --> 02:27:34,159
what do your body camps changes everything because like what

2131
02:27:34,319 --> 02:27:38,120
cops do is such that like I'm not I'm not

2132
02:27:38,159 --> 02:27:41,760
talking about like Navary type police, but like Chicago PD,

2133
02:27:41,840 --> 02:27:45,079
you're like l EPD, You're like NYPD. Like the kind

2134
02:27:45,079 --> 02:27:49,399
of stuff these guys do, you know, Like basically, uh,

2135
02:27:50,000 --> 02:27:55,319
it basically evolves like breaking down like street dudes who

2136
02:27:55,319 --> 02:27:58,959
otherwise would be cavalier in the way that they apply violence.

2137
02:27:59,040 --> 02:28:03,319
And you can't have it it because you know, as

2138
02:28:03,360 --> 02:28:08,639
a sovereign government, local or otherwise can't allow that and

2139
02:28:08,680 --> 02:28:14,200
still retain credibility. But also there's got to be an

2140
02:28:14,280 --> 02:28:20,159
understanding that if you transgress certain parameters, like you're gonna

2141
02:28:20,159 --> 02:28:23,879
get broken down and you can't. That doesn't work in

2142
02:28:24,760 --> 02:28:28,280
the air of the Panopticon. But it's also people just

2143
02:28:28,360 --> 02:28:33,280
kind of move differently, like the whole One of the

2144
02:28:33,360 --> 02:28:36,719
one of the recurring motifs, especially in the Choir Boys,

2145
02:28:36,840 --> 02:28:38,959
is like when these cops answer calls, like in the

2146
02:28:39,079 --> 02:28:43,799
deep Hood, it's like you're all by yourself. And even

2147
02:28:43,959 --> 02:28:47,000
and until the eighties, squad cars were called cold radio

2148
02:28:47,120 --> 02:28:49,680
cars because cops didn't even have a radio on their person.

2149
02:28:50,360 --> 02:28:53,360
So basically, like you go through a door if you're

2150
02:28:53,399 --> 02:28:57,440
partnered with somebody, and police armers deployed how they deployed

2151
02:28:57,520 --> 02:29:00,799
like varied by region and by department. But at best

2152
02:29:00,799 --> 02:29:02,920
you're gonna have like one guy with you and the

2153
02:29:02,959 --> 02:29:05,559
most firepower you're gonna have as a twelve gage, which

2154
02:29:05,600 --> 02:29:09,600
is a great weapon, don't get me wrong, But that

2155
02:29:09,639 --> 02:29:13,399
doesn't if you're if there's RNA men five D. But

2156
02:29:13,440 --> 02:29:18,520
like that, that doesn't do anything, you know. So while

2157
02:29:18,559 --> 02:29:21,120
I'm talking about how scary it was to like have

2158
02:29:21,239 --> 02:29:25,159
to like breach doors by yourself, you know, but now

2159
02:29:25,520 --> 02:29:27,680
I mean not only the cops have body cams and

2160
02:29:27,799 --> 02:29:30,040
most police farmers it's like literally like a live feed

2161
02:29:30,200 --> 02:29:33,440
like back to where they're deployed from. You know, they're

2162
02:29:33,440 --> 02:29:36,719
in constant content with a radio on their person, like

2163
02:29:36,760 --> 02:29:40,760
deployment patterns of such of a total situational awareness. But

2164
02:29:40,799 --> 02:29:44,079
also like things are just like different, like you wouldn't

2165
02:29:44,399 --> 02:29:47,360
there's not the same potential for lawlessness. It's like when

2166
02:29:47,440 --> 02:29:50,360
lawlessness does jump up, it's very punctuated and it's very

2167
02:29:50,399 --> 02:29:55,639
scaled and it's very bad. But there'd never be a

2168
02:29:55,719 --> 02:30:00,639
situation like the Bronx was back in the eighties, or

2169
02:30:00,760 --> 02:30:04,479
like Wrigley Bill was in the early eighties, when it

2170
02:30:04,520 --> 02:30:08,120
was like a shithole where there's just kind of like

2171
02:30:08,159 --> 02:30:11,120
guys moving around and not like praying on random people,

2172
02:30:11,440 --> 02:30:13,479
you know, because they want money you're there or something

2173
02:30:13,520 --> 02:30:16,680
like that doesn't happen anymore, you know, not not because

2174
02:30:16,920 --> 02:30:20,040
not not because people have become less simian or something,

2175
02:30:20,120 --> 02:30:23,159
but it that's just not how you move anymore. If

2176
02:30:24,120 --> 02:30:27,799
if you're if you if you're on the make like that,

2177
02:30:28,120 --> 02:30:31,680
you know so and also too, like it like people

2178
02:30:31,719 --> 02:30:34,079
people are hip to the fact they're like always on camera,

2179
02:30:35,079 --> 02:30:36,360
you know, like if you're gonna do I mean, don't

2180
02:30:36,360 --> 02:30:38,840
get me wrong, Like horrible stuff does still happen, and

2181
02:30:38,879 --> 02:30:41,799
there's like a way you can do it where you're

2182
02:30:41,559 --> 02:30:45,399
you're out of sight of the electric eye. But it's

2183
02:30:45,479 --> 02:30:49,360
it's it's different and people's living patterns too, Like you

2184
02:30:49,360 --> 02:30:55,799
don't have you don't have situations anymore where people where

2185
02:30:55,840 --> 02:30:58,760
we've got like thousands and thousands of people are kind

2186
02:30:58,799 --> 02:31:02,319
of like trapped in some urban environment that's failing and

2187
02:31:02,360 --> 02:31:05,520
like even like the deep hood that's its own thing,

2188
02:31:05,600 --> 02:31:09,680
but it's different and it's kind of like bandit country,

2189
02:31:09,719 --> 02:31:13,760
you know. It's the people there aren't like actively engaging

2190
02:31:13,760 --> 02:31:16,000
with the police and wanting the police to kind of

2191
02:31:16,040 --> 02:31:22,879
help quash these anti social instincts that you know, periodically

2192
02:31:22,959 --> 02:31:27,239
flare up and stuff. So I maintain that like modern

2193
02:31:27,280 --> 02:31:30,479
policing is dying and you and in the traditional sense,

2194
02:31:30,840 --> 02:31:34,120
the traditionally understood sense of what the job entailed. It's

2195
02:31:34,159 --> 02:31:37,159
not like illegal for cops to move that way. So

2196
02:31:37,200 --> 02:31:41,079
I mean, this isn't you know, And I know that

2197
02:31:42,680 --> 02:31:46,280
especially a lot of older folks and I'm not transging

2198
02:31:46,319 --> 02:31:51,399
older folks. I am one. They have this idea like, well,

2199
02:31:51,760 --> 02:31:53,879
we just need to take the gloves off and quote

2200
02:31:53,879 --> 02:31:56,159
what cops do their job. Like they don't understand what

2201
02:31:56,200 --> 02:31:59,600
I'm talking about. Like even if like you told cops

2202
02:31:59,600 --> 02:32:03,079
like look you can you can crack heads and like

2203
02:32:03,520 --> 02:32:06,239
break people the fuck down, like it's nineteen eighty nine,

2204
02:32:07,159 --> 02:32:11,520
that wouldn't resolve the problem. And the public wouldn't like that,

2205
02:32:12,079 --> 02:32:14,559
I don't think, Like that wouldn't make them the wouldn't

2206
02:32:14,559 --> 02:32:17,520
make bougies feel safe. That's not what they want. They

2207
02:32:17,520 --> 02:32:19,440
don't want the police to go away. They're full of

2208
02:32:19,479 --> 02:32:22,600
shit when they claim that on Facebook or whatever. But

2209
02:32:22,639 --> 02:32:25,959
what I just describe like isn't what they want. But

2210
02:32:26,079 --> 02:32:33,319
also I get you know it, it uh I don't

2211
02:32:33,319 --> 02:32:37,600
think that, uh I, I don't. I don't think the

2212
02:32:38,399 --> 02:32:43,520
will would be there anyway because it's too open ended,

2213
02:32:45,399 --> 02:32:49,399
if that makes any sense. And uh I think too.

2214
02:32:50,760 --> 02:32:53,120
You know, this is not just for political reasons. But

2215
02:32:53,200 --> 02:32:55,159
this has been in the running for a minute. And

2216
02:32:55,520 --> 02:32:57,200
you know, guys like Tellus shit I used to write

2217
02:32:57,200 --> 02:33:00,840
about this in the nineties and he he and those

2218
02:33:00,959 --> 02:33:03,159
like him got something's wrong, but they got something's right.

2219
02:33:03,559 --> 02:33:12,079
And the privatization of armed force as well as protective services,

2220
02:33:12,879 --> 02:33:16,680
that's very much like a real thing, and that's increasingly

2221
02:33:16,719 --> 02:33:19,520
gonna become the face of policing and and and in

2222
02:33:19,520 --> 02:33:21,639
in fifty years. I don't think you're gonna have a

2223
02:33:21,680 --> 02:33:25,120
regular police department. Like, yeah, obviously, if you go you

2224
02:33:25,200 --> 02:33:28,559
go kill your neighbor, you know, somebody is going to

2225
02:33:28,600 --> 02:33:31,239
show up, somebody there was somebody who are gonna be

2226
02:33:31,280 --> 02:33:33,360
heavily armed. They're gonna like take you into custody and

2227
02:33:33,399 --> 02:33:36,799
pull you before we judge. But it's not gonna be

2228
02:33:37,879 --> 02:33:40,639
We have guys in these like blue and white cars

2229
02:33:40,760 --> 02:33:43,520
driving around like looking for people who are fucking up

2230
02:33:43,639 --> 02:33:47,000
or something like. That's done. That's not gonna happen anymore.

2231
02:33:47,840 --> 02:33:53,639
You know, and even even here where things are like

2232
02:33:53,639 --> 02:33:56,760
a lot more draconian and we're kind of like in

2233
02:33:56,840 --> 02:34:00,639
a time warp here, like police are like way way

2234
02:34:00,760 --> 02:34:05,559
less like aggressive in terms of what kind of conduct

2235
02:34:05,719 --> 02:34:10,360
though the the'll for bracelets on you for you know,

2236
02:34:12,680 --> 02:34:16,920
and it's not that that's not just uh and then

2237
02:34:16,920 --> 02:34:19,399
that's enduring even now that like you've got we've got

2238
02:34:19,399 --> 02:34:21,959
like a very like law and order president denewable office.

2239
02:34:22,360 --> 02:34:24,600
It's not it's not as the pendulum swinging back or

2240
02:34:24,639 --> 02:34:29,840
something like. It's like sociologically, the things have become such

2241
02:34:29,879 --> 02:34:35,399
that what we're describing is is no longer viable and

2242
02:34:37,920 --> 02:34:43,239
you know, I uh, it's it should it should seem

2243
02:34:43,280 --> 02:34:47,959
strange to people anyway, like whether you live in the

2244
02:34:48,000 --> 02:34:52,479
city or the country. This idea of we're gonna hire

2245
02:34:52,520 --> 02:34:55,600
a bunch of young military age meals who aren't from

2246
02:34:55,600 --> 02:34:59,040
your community, who you have no idea who these guys are.

2247
02:35:00,079 --> 02:35:02,040
They're going to be heavily armed and just kind of

2248
02:35:02,079 --> 02:35:05,120
like tell you to do things and lay the hammer

2249
02:35:05,200 --> 02:35:08,959
down on people when they decided crimes underway. That's like

2250
02:35:09,079 --> 02:35:14,879
really really really invasive, you know, And there's conditions where

2251
02:35:15,719 --> 02:35:19,079
you've got to sacrifice certain freedom of movement and liberty

2252
02:35:20,280 --> 02:35:23,079
because otherwise there can't be public order. And that's absolutely

2253
02:35:23,120 --> 02:35:25,000
the way things were in the mid twentieth century. Things

2254
02:35:25,000 --> 02:35:29,120
aren't like that anymore, you know. And one of the

2255
02:35:29,120 --> 02:35:32,280
things that underlies the fact that, like the gun control lobby,

2256
02:35:32,280 --> 02:35:35,200
you finally gave up, Like it's not just because the

2257
02:35:35,239 --> 02:35:39,079
issue became like a big loser politically, like that put

2258
02:35:39,200 --> 02:35:42,680
the mistakes, the cause or the effect, Like that issue

2259
02:35:42,719 --> 02:35:48,079
became a loser because frankly, if you don't want aggressive policing,

2260
02:35:48,280 --> 02:35:51,280
you you basically have to accept the fact that people

2261
02:35:51,360 --> 02:35:53,079
that American is going to be armed to the teeth,

2262
02:35:53,959 --> 02:35:57,440
you know. And it's really interesting, very abruptly, everybody just

2263
02:35:57,520 --> 02:36:02,639
kind of capitulated on that issue. You know, I realized

2264
02:36:02,639 --> 02:36:08,120
it's still token efforts and bullshit, you know, and meaningless

2265
02:36:09,239 --> 02:36:11,799
derivations you know, like oh, this is an assault weapons,

2266
02:36:11,879 --> 02:36:14,319
so it's bad and it's banned, even though assault weapons

2267
02:36:14,319 --> 02:36:18,319
don't exist, or there's you know, ways locally like here

2268
02:36:18,479 --> 02:36:22,520
you can sort of like bury people under paperwork to

2269
02:36:22,600 --> 02:36:26,280
deprive them of their Second Amendment rights in a defecto

2270
02:36:26,440 --> 02:36:29,799
kind of way, while still you know, complying with the

2271
02:36:29,840 --> 02:36:37,399
litter of the law. But you know, the circumstances I'm

2272
02:36:37,440 --> 02:36:43,280
always describing about deliberate communities, you know, quitting the the

2273
02:36:43,319 --> 02:36:46,479
social engineering regime, which is already happening. But in those

2274
02:36:46,520 --> 02:36:49,520
liberate communities, you're not gonna have just like random guys

2275
02:36:49,559 --> 02:36:52,239
from other places coming in to police them. People aren't

2276
02:36:52,280 --> 02:36:57,120
gonna tolerate that anymore, you know, Like it's not gonna

2277
02:36:57,159 --> 02:37:00,079
tolerate Like I'm like random white guys doing that, Like,

2278
02:37:00,120 --> 02:37:02,959
we're not gonna tolerate some like random fucking Hindu guys

2279
02:37:03,799 --> 02:37:06,559
who watched too much TV deciding they're gonna calle policas

2280
02:37:06,600 --> 02:37:12,840
Like that's over with, you know, gonna be places.

2281
02:37:11,520 --> 02:37:16,040
Speaker 1: I think, I think people. I think people instinctively, even

2282
02:37:16,120 --> 02:37:19,280
like the big law and order boomers and everything like that,

2283
02:37:19,719 --> 02:37:24,520
know that if you send somebody into police, like if

2284
02:37:24,520 --> 02:37:27,319
you're sending you know, a bunch of suburban white guys

2285
02:37:27,360 --> 02:37:30,120
into the hood in the in the inner city, that's

2286
02:37:30,200 --> 02:37:34,079
just an invading army. And even if people can't even

2287
02:37:34,079 --> 02:37:37,520
if people can't articulate that, they instinctively know it and

2288
02:37:37,520 --> 02:37:38,639
they're reacting to it.

2289
02:37:39,600 --> 02:37:42,040
Speaker 2: And it's a terrible idea. And I mean, no, make

2290
02:37:42,120 --> 02:37:46,120
no mistake like I'm more sympathetic to nineteen eighties LAPD

2291
02:37:46,360 --> 02:37:49,920
than a lot of people. And whether in the movie Colors,

2292
02:37:51,319 --> 02:37:54,200
that's a really great movie. It's just cool, but it's

2293
02:37:54,200 --> 02:37:58,639
also you know, like when it opens up and it's

2294
02:37:58,680 --> 02:38:03,360
Operation Hammer, where Gates is basically like like Flying Crash,

2295
02:38:03,840 --> 02:38:05,920
they're just like they're throwing the brace Thatt's on like

2296
02:38:05,959 --> 02:38:09,040
any like any military age male, like Flying Gang Colors,

2297
02:38:09,040 --> 02:38:12,559
because Gates's notion is like, let's arrest like all these motherfuckers.

2298
02:38:13,159 --> 02:38:16,719
And even if they bond out, you know, in thirty

2299
02:38:16,760 --> 02:38:18,719
six hours when they get in front of a judge

2300
02:38:18,840 --> 02:38:20,639
or even if like you know, they get cut loose

2301
02:38:20,680 --> 02:38:23,559
without even a bonding set, He's like, now we know.

2302
02:38:23,760 --> 02:38:25,959
Now we've got an idea like the forest levels of

2303
02:38:26,000 --> 02:38:28,440
these guys and what they're set is, and like what

2304
02:38:28,440 --> 02:38:31,079
what territory they claim, you know, so we can build

2305
02:38:31,120 --> 02:38:33,719
like a conceptual picture of like what op for is

2306
02:38:34,360 --> 02:38:37,399
and uh, like it really was like a war, you know,

2307
02:38:37,680 --> 02:38:41,200
and the movie gets into that, you know, like especially

2308
02:38:42,719 --> 02:38:46,360
where I think, uh, they don't other than the crypts

2309
02:38:46,360 --> 02:38:48,239
in the Blood is like they use euphemism as for

2310
02:38:48,319 --> 02:38:50,559
the other gangs, but they're but there's like the there's

2311
02:38:50,600 --> 02:38:53,120
like the mostly Spanish gang but they're supposed to be

2312
02:38:53,200 --> 02:38:57,440
eighteenth Street and like they assault the crypts and uh

2313
02:38:58,000 --> 02:39:00,719
like the one dude, the one who's gotta mac ten

2314
02:39:01,000 --> 02:39:05,079
and then Don Hiedl he's got an a k and

2315
02:39:05,120 --> 02:39:07,440
they're like throwing the throwing like frags at each other.

2316
02:39:07,600 --> 02:39:09,479
Like it's not as like I was watching this movie

2317
02:39:09,479 --> 02:39:11,280
with this chick. I was watching them with this chick.

2318
02:39:11,319 --> 02:39:13,319
I know, it was like a lot younger than me,

2319
02:39:13,840 --> 02:39:15,959
and she was like laughing. I'm like, no, you don't understand,

2320
02:39:15,959 --> 02:39:18,079
like shit was like that, and like that's not just

2321
02:39:18,239 --> 02:39:24,120
like cartoons stuff, you know. And uh so, I mean,

2322
02:39:24,159 --> 02:39:28,000
I I I don't think Gates was was a great guy,

2323
02:39:28,239 --> 02:39:33,719
but I understand what is I understand is his tad

2324
02:39:33,879 --> 02:39:37,479
orientation and it wasn't just crazy or and he wasn't

2325
02:39:37,520 --> 02:39:40,799
just being some tyrant or something. But I mean, that's

2326
02:39:40,959 --> 02:39:44,159
that's not the way things that's not the way things

2327
02:39:44,159 --> 02:39:48,959
are anymore. And you know, also, I like nine to

2328
02:39:49,000 --> 02:39:52,600
eleven change things in ways that I don't think in

2329
02:39:52,680 --> 02:39:56,600
ways they're in ways they're severe but also somewhat subtle

2330
02:39:56,639 --> 02:40:02,719
man and like I you know, basically there's certain sorts

2331
02:40:02,719 --> 02:40:06,319
of conduct that take the individuals so engaged out of

2332
02:40:06,319 --> 02:40:10,680
consideration as a criminal actor and it becomes okay to

2333
02:40:10,799 --> 02:40:13,799
blast them. And this is what this is a fact.

2334
02:40:14,799 --> 02:40:20,799
You know. So this idea that well, you know, the

2335
02:40:20,879 --> 02:40:22,959
Norman idea, like well we need the police because like

2336
02:40:23,000 --> 02:40:25,600
what about terrorism or what about like may I shooters.

2337
02:40:25,600 --> 02:40:29,920
It's like, that's not really a police problem. Like that

2338
02:40:30,040 --> 02:40:33,200
means you need people to deploy to kill them, you

2339
02:40:33,239 --> 02:40:34,879
know what I mean, that's that's that's not to say

2340
02:40:34,920 --> 02:40:36,760
you post up the army of the National Guard to

2341
02:40:36,760 --> 02:40:42,520
patrol the streets, but that means that the response to

2342
02:40:42,799 --> 02:40:46,520
those kinds of crises are not We're going to send

2343
02:40:46,520 --> 02:40:50,319
a police department to frisk and arrest people. You know,

2344
02:40:50,399 --> 02:40:57,520
it's a totally different mission orientation. And increasingly that kind

2345
02:40:57,559 --> 02:40:59,799
of thing is going to be privatized. It's like, if

2346
02:40:59,840 --> 02:41:05,879
the idea is, which the idea should be for anyone

2347
02:41:05,920 --> 02:41:09,639
who's serious about physical security of that store, is to

2348
02:41:09,719 --> 02:41:14,799
preempt violence before it happens, well, I mean you you

2349
02:41:14,959 --> 02:41:20,120
basically it's like Derek Prince talked about after the attempt

2350
02:41:20,159 --> 02:41:23,920
on Trump's life on one of those podcasts. He's like

2351
02:41:23,959 --> 02:41:27,840
you don't really want a police sensibility if you're trying

2352
02:41:27,840 --> 02:41:31,760
to protect the president or presidential candidate. You know you're

2353
02:41:31,760 --> 02:41:35,200
not You're not looking for poth suspicious people. You're not

2354
02:41:35,239 --> 02:41:38,719
scanting the crowd for a guy who's maybe strapped. You know,

2355
02:41:38,760 --> 02:41:41,840
you're looking for threats. And when you identify those threats,

2356
02:41:41,879 --> 02:41:46,079
you you you neutralize them. And yeah, like sometimes you're

2357
02:41:46,120 --> 02:41:50,239
wrong and that's bad, But I mean that that's the

2358
02:41:50,319 --> 02:41:56,920
the liabilities, moral and material that attend any any any

2359
02:41:56,920 --> 02:42:01,520
profession that that you know deals with the violent its currency.

2360
02:42:02,399 --> 02:42:06,600
But you know that the Princess is an interesting guy

2361
02:42:06,639 --> 02:42:10,920
and he he, he understands this better than most people,

2362
02:42:10,959 --> 02:42:13,639
despite the facts his background is military, not police. But

2363
02:42:14,639 --> 02:42:18,040
I think that actually is one of the things to

2364
02:42:18,079 --> 02:42:21,319
which is insight, oh is because it's hard to see

2365
02:42:22,920 --> 02:42:30,959
the parameters of of changing phenomena, particularly sociological or or

2366
02:42:32,799 --> 02:42:36,959
or or political phenomenon like from within an institution, you know,

2367
02:42:37,000 --> 02:42:39,239
and if you're if you even if you're on the

2368
02:42:39,239 --> 02:42:40,959
younger side, if you'l like a cop who's been doing

2369
02:42:41,000 --> 02:42:44,479
this for a decade or longer, like like basically you're

2370
02:42:44,479 --> 02:42:48,000
in you're in your entire conceptual horizon, you know, orbits

2371
02:42:48,000 --> 02:42:52,440
around kind of like police science and and the kind

2372
02:42:52,479 --> 02:42:56,000
of strictures that uh, you know supposedly are the are

2373
02:42:56,040 --> 02:42:59,959
the kind of core tenets of of policing, when when

2374
02:43:00,280 --> 02:43:04,360
that's that's pretty much dead in the water. And I

2375
02:43:04,360 --> 02:43:13,639
mean especially these days too, you know. I Uh, one

2376
02:43:13,680 --> 02:43:15,559
of the I lament a lot the death of the

2377
02:43:15,559 --> 02:43:18,760
public intellectual like as a as a type of person,

2378
02:43:20,159 --> 02:43:24,280
because I think they played an essential role. And that's

2379
02:43:24,280 --> 02:43:26,040
one of the reasons things have been done down so

2380
02:43:26,120 --> 02:43:29,239
much unto the Cold War is it's hard to determine

2381
02:43:29,319 --> 02:43:32,239
this is like a causal Varia Bullard or just like

2382
02:43:32,559 --> 02:43:39,879
a secondary effect. Maybe it's both. But you know, there's

2383
02:43:39,879 --> 02:43:44,399
this really great documentary called The Futurists, and uh it

2384
02:43:44,440 --> 02:43:46,840
came out in the seventies, like around the time. It

2385
02:43:47,479 --> 02:43:53,479
very much like was riffing on Alvin Toffler, the guy

2386
02:43:53,479 --> 02:43:56,120
who wrote Future Shock, which is a really good book.

2387
02:43:57,600 --> 02:44:01,600
But you know, this is the only guy I've heard

2388
02:44:01,680 --> 02:44:04,799
talk about the fact that you know, these days, if

2389
02:44:04,840 --> 02:44:06,680
if you want to hurt people, or if you want

2390
02:44:06,680 --> 02:44:11,079
to or if you want to assassinate a public official

2391
02:44:12,239 --> 02:44:15,760
or a or a high value target, you don't even

2392
02:44:15,799 --> 02:44:19,239
need to put eyes on them and and and close

2393
02:44:19,360 --> 02:44:21,959
physical distance and blast them. I mean you could, you

2394
02:44:21,959 --> 02:44:25,239
could program drones to swarm them like that would take

2395
02:44:25,280 --> 02:44:31,920
some planning and some money. But there's there's guys who

2396
02:44:32,280 --> 02:44:36,399
have never even had a smartphone, like in the tribaler

2397
02:44:36,520 --> 02:44:39,600
is a Pakistan, like they they learn how to program drones.

2398
02:44:40,319 --> 02:44:43,639
It's not like you need to be some It's not

2399
02:44:43,719 --> 02:44:46,200
you need to be some like under seventeen like boy

2400
02:44:46,280 --> 02:44:50,959
genius to do it. You know, they're they're very they're

2401
02:44:51,159 --> 02:44:55,760
they're very utile in bail field situations for that reason,

2402
02:44:56,840 --> 02:45:01,639
you know. And uh so this idea too that like

2403
02:45:01,680 --> 02:45:03,920
well unless we have like physical eyes on the ground

2404
02:45:03,920 --> 02:45:07,280
doing like patrols like we we we can't control a

2405
02:45:07,639 --> 02:45:11,639
we can't not control. We can't we can't provide security

2406
02:45:11,719 --> 02:45:15,760
for you know, for a physical space like this nonsense,

2407
02:45:16,200 --> 02:45:18,200
Like you don't need to do that anymore. In fact,

2408
02:45:18,239 --> 02:45:19,840
that might not even help. But what are you gonna

2409
02:45:20,920 --> 02:45:23,799
hypothetically in God forbid and that God doesn't happen. I mean,

2410
02:45:23,840 --> 02:45:27,200
let's say let's say the president or you know, somebody

2411
02:45:27,239 --> 02:45:31,000
else wasn't like Trump situation and like it doesn't like

2412
02:45:31,120 --> 02:45:33,399
drones like converge on them like a series I was

2413
02:45:33,399 --> 02:45:37,559
gonna do we start blasting the drones. They're if they're

2414
02:45:37,600 --> 02:45:39,520
kind of cozy, drones are all gonna die and then

2415
02:45:39,559 --> 02:45:42,120
blow up, you know, I mean, like what what are

2416
02:45:42,120 --> 02:45:47,200
you gonna do about them? It's such that there is

2417
02:45:47,239 --> 02:45:50,639
a countermeasure. I mean, yeah, you do any you do

2418
02:45:50,799 --> 02:45:55,399
still need eyes on the operational area, like ly looked

2419
02:45:55,479 --> 02:45:58,760
like spotting where somebody controlling those drones. But that guy

2420
02:45:58,840 --> 02:46:04,280
could be fourteen klometer away. Okay, you know things like that,

2421
02:46:05,159 --> 02:46:07,319
you know, and I realized that like people pete, the

2422
02:46:07,360 --> 02:46:09,639
rebuttal is gonna be like like subs watch and it's

2423
02:46:09,639 --> 02:46:12,200
gonna be like, well, that's not what like beat cops do.

2424
02:46:12,799 --> 02:46:14,559
It's like no, But that comes back to what I

2425
02:46:14,639 --> 02:46:18,520
said before. A lot of this stuff is is becoming

2426
02:46:18,559 --> 02:46:22,280
private eyes and a lot of it, you know, there's

2427
02:46:22,360 --> 02:46:26,479
not really a civic culture that interfaces with the bureaugrac anymore.

2428
02:46:26,879 --> 02:46:28,799
You know, like in a lot of ways that's positive

2429
02:46:28,799 --> 02:46:32,040
because stuff like we're doing, we're building genuine community and

2430
02:46:32,120 --> 02:46:35,079
a deliberate way. But I I don't want to fuck

2431
02:46:35,120 --> 02:46:38,799
with the police, Like if somebody, if somebody tried to

2432
02:46:38,879 --> 02:46:42,399
hurt me or my dad and my home. I defend myself,

2433
02:46:43,520 --> 02:46:46,760
and God forbid, if somebody died, like somebody attagging me,

2434
02:46:46,959 --> 02:46:49,000
obviously i'd call it in so I didnt get charged

2435
02:46:49,040 --> 02:46:54,159
with murder. But beyond that, like if somebody, if somebody

2436
02:46:54,399 --> 02:46:56,959
if like if I was at Starbucks and I find

2437
02:46:56,959 --> 02:46:59,840
I discover somebody stole my wallet, I'm not gonna call

2438
02:46:59,840 --> 02:47:01,920
it police. They're not going to care, Like what are

2439
02:47:01,920 --> 02:47:04,600
they gonna do? You know, this isn't nineteen eighty or

2440
02:47:04,639 --> 02:47:06,879
something where it's like if you have a problem, oh,

2441
02:47:06,920 --> 02:47:10,559
you call the police. Because there's kind of like this

2442
02:47:11,639 --> 02:47:16,399
not particularly intimate or or or or or deep, but

2443
02:47:16,440 --> 02:47:19,559
there is this kind of like basic moral consensus where

2444
02:47:19,559 --> 02:47:23,639
it's like, okay, like all all you know, all non

2445
02:47:23,639 --> 02:47:26,959
marginal people like call the police to resolve you know,

2446
02:47:27,040 --> 02:47:30,120
these these kinds of slights to the person of their property,

2447
02:47:30,479 --> 02:47:35,040
Like nobody thinks that way anymore, you know, so a

2448
02:47:35,079 --> 02:47:38,200
lot of that's dead. And as far as like physical

2449
02:47:38,239 --> 02:47:42,799
security and stuff, it's like, well, you know, you should

2450
02:47:42,879 --> 02:47:46,360
be you should be thinking about self defense. You shouldn't

2451
02:47:46,879 --> 02:47:49,040
be thinking like I'm gonna call the police protect me.

2452
02:47:49,559 --> 02:47:52,000
I mean, don't'et me wrong. I realize there's you know,

2453
02:47:52,479 --> 02:47:54,159
if you're like a single woman in like a big

2454
02:47:54,200 --> 02:47:56,159
city or something like, I have no doubt that that

2455
02:47:56,200 --> 02:47:58,200
can be like very scary, and you know, you need

2456
02:47:58,239 --> 02:48:00,120
to be able to call people to help you and stuff,

2457
02:48:00,159 --> 02:48:04,120
because you know, some people are vulnerable and that's a

2458
02:48:04,120 --> 02:48:07,120
difficult question, you know, and there's gonna be there's gonna

2459
02:48:07,159 --> 02:48:13,120
be gaps in in the protection that certain vulnerable people need.

2460
02:48:13,159 --> 02:48:14,600
And that's not a good thing. But that's the way

2461
02:48:14,840 --> 02:48:20,440
things always are. That doesn't somehow neck gate or defeat

2462
02:48:21,799 --> 02:48:28,440
sociological trends that are driven by historical processes and move ons,

2463
02:48:29,399 --> 02:48:31,879
you know, So that's important. What I will say is,

2464
02:48:31,920 --> 02:48:33,760
I take it back, is not forgive me. One of

2465
02:48:33,799 --> 02:48:35,440
the I should have said this when we were kind

2466
02:48:35,440 --> 02:48:38,639
of breaking down Wandblas catalog. The New Centurions is like

2467
02:48:38,680 --> 02:48:41,879
a good book. Yeah, it's like pro police stuff. And

2468
02:48:41,959 --> 02:48:44,920
because he was he was like an LAPD sergeant when

2469
02:48:44,959 --> 02:48:49,680
he wrote it, and so obviously he wasn't gonna trash

2470
02:48:50,319 --> 02:48:54,959
the organization. But also, you know, like we talked about

2471
02:48:54,959 --> 02:48:58,680
an early earlier episode, LAPD has always been kind of

2472
02:48:58,680 --> 02:49:02,399
like uniquely inter based with media, Like I guarantee that

2473
02:49:03,399 --> 02:49:07,079
La PD was way more involved in like the process

2474
02:49:07,479 --> 02:49:09,680
A many officer was like writing something, whether it was

2475
02:49:09,719 --> 02:49:11,799
like a TV or a film script or a novel.

2476
02:49:12,200 --> 02:49:17,799
So I guarantee you he had like like administration guys

2477
02:49:17,799 --> 02:49:24,760
like literally looking over his shoulder. But it does this.

2478
02:49:25,000 --> 02:49:27,719
It basically it doesn't have a traditional plot. It's very

2479
02:49:27,680 --> 02:49:33,159
episodic and there's three It follows these three young guys

2480
02:49:33,319 --> 02:49:34,959
like through the police a kid, I mean, then like

2481
02:49:35,000 --> 02:49:37,200
they hit the street, and like one of the guys

2482
02:49:37,280 --> 02:49:44,360
names is Duran. He's basically like a he's like a

2483
02:49:44,399 --> 02:49:46,559
Tejano guy, but he's he's like a white dude. He

2484
02:49:46,639 --> 02:49:49,280
like doesn't identify with like Chicanos. He's not from East La.

2485
02:49:50,280 --> 02:49:53,639
But because of like his appearance and his surname, like

2486
02:49:53,680 --> 02:49:57,840
he gets deployed like East La and like a heart

2487
02:49:57,959 --> 02:50:01,520
Basically I think around echo Park, I have to reread it.

2488
02:50:03,760 --> 02:50:08,479
But he uh, that's probably the most like people criticised

2489
02:50:08,520 --> 02:50:11,559
the book saying like, oh well, but he draws none

2490
02:50:11,600 --> 02:50:14,040
of my characters in simple minded terms. I think that's

2491
02:50:14,079 --> 02:50:15,440
the wrong way to look at it, because always do

2492
02:50:15,440 --> 02:50:19,239
with Duran is that Duran's like he he gets like

2493
02:50:19,280 --> 02:50:21,159
the Echo park Beat or whatever, and he's like, I'm

2494
02:50:21,159 --> 02:50:23,799
not like these fucking people like their scumbaggs. But then

2495
02:50:23,840 --> 02:50:26,559
he realizes, like on the street, like you are Mexican,

2496
02:50:27,079 --> 02:50:30,719
like you are mister policeman. People think you're one of them.

2497
02:50:31,040 --> 02:50:35,079
You know, it doesn't matter, and like as and it's

2498
02:50:35,079 --> 02:50:38,000
interesting too because like his perspective obviously, and those the

2499
02:50:38,040 --> 02:50:41,719
people he's charged with policing, Like as the Watchwrights jump off,

2500
02:50:41,879 --> 02:50:45,159
you see, like what the Spanish folks are thinking, you know,

2501
02:50:45,239 --> 02:50:46,920
because they're kind of like they're kind of like this

2502
02:50:47,079 --> 02:50:50,079
third variable, you know. And then like one of the

2503
02:50:50,200 --> 02:50:54,399
dudes is he's like this guy like funk guy college,

2504
02:50:55,120 --> 02:50:56,879
you know, and he's like do something. So he becomes

2505
02:50:56,879 --> 02:50:59,360
a cop, you know, and he's convinced he's like smarter

2506
02:50:59,399 --> 02:51:01,200
than everybody and shit, and he kind of like looks

2507
02:51:01,280 --> 02:51:03,319
down on his fellow officers. He's just like it's kind

2508
02:51:03,319 --> 02:51:06,719
of like regular like middle class white dude. But then

2509
02:51:06,840 --> 02:51:10,920
like he gets he gets assigned like the deep hood.

2510
02:51:11,319 --> 02:51:14,680
It's like when watch jumps off, like he gets he's, uh,

2511
02:51:14,840 --> 02:51:17,360
he's like under fire and stuff, and then he realizes,

2512
02:51:17,479 --> 02:51:21,319
like uh, he gets like humbled by the whole experience,

2513
02:51:22,399 --> 02:51:25,200
you know, like stuff like that. It's you know, and

2514
02:51:25,239 --> 02:51:28,440
I'm sure some people, especially like younger guys and girls,

2515
02:51:28,479 --> 02:51:31,159
who would think it was like corny, like the kind

2516
02:51:31,159 --> 02:51:36,360
of you know, the kind of like nineteen sixties era

2517
02:51:36,520 --> 02:51:41,559
kind of like bumper sticker patriotism. But it is like

2518
02:51:41,680 --> 02:51:45,719
a it is kind of like a snapshot, and it's

2519
02:51:45,760 --> 02:51:50,920
called the New Centurion. It's like the third guy who

2520
02:51:50,959 --> 02:51:53,440
I think is supposed to be Wamba because he's just

2521
02:51:53,479 --> 02:51:56,680
kind of like this like regular dude, who's who's you know,

2522
02:51:56,719 --> 02:51:59,559
he wants to be a police officer and he doesn't

2523
02:51:59,680 --> 02:52:03,600
have a lot of vices and stuff. But the guy who, uh,

2524
02:52:03,760 --> 02:52:06,239
the guy who teaches him how to like be a

2525
02:52:06,280 --> 02:52:10,799
street cop, ends up coming suicide. But that dude tells

2526
02:52:10,879 --> 02:52:15,479
him like, we're the new Centurions because basically America is

2527
02:52:15,520 --> 02:52:19,120
like the failing Roman Empire, you know, and and the

2528
02:52:19,159 --> 02:52:23,680
only thing that stands between the barbarians, you know, and

2529
02:52:23,680 --> 02:52:26,959
and what remains a civilization like are us. And that's

2530
02:52:27,000 --> 02:52:29,440
that's kind of like as bleak and subversive as the

2531
02:52:29,479 --> 02:52:32,079
book gets. But then like the character that drops that,

2532
02:52:32,399 --> 02:52:34,799
like he blows his brains out and it turns out

2533
02:52:34,799 --> 02:52:37,000
he thinks it's a big alcoholic. So I think that's

2534
02:52:37,040 --> 02:52:40,239
like by dropping like we'll talk with the Albie. Oh no,

2535
02:52:40,319 --> 02:52:46,559
that's a disturbed character. But that's interesting because it I, uh,

2536
02:52:48,520 --> 02:52:53,600
one of the one of the vin yet say, like

2537
02:52:53,600 --> 02:52:56,200
in the movie Cruising with al But you know, which

2538
02:52:56,239 --> 02:52:58,440
is an underrated It's like the subject matter is gross

2539
02:52:58,479 --> 02:52:59,799
and that puts a lot of people off. But I

2540
02:52:59,799 --> 02:53:02,159
think it's kind of like an American Jallo picture. I

2541
02:53:02,200 --> 02:53:07,639
really like it. But the the opening scene, there's these

2542
02:53:07,680 --> 02:53:10,440
two cops and one of us played by Joe Spenell,

2543
02:53:11,559 --> 02:53:15,639
and uh, they're driving around. I guess it's uh, I

2544
02:53:15,680 --> 02:53:19,360
think it. I think they're actually in Alphabet City, but

2545
02:53:19,360 --> 02:53:22,079
I think it's supposed to be the village and they

2546
02:53:22,120 --> 02:53:25,079
go by and there's there's there's like these dudes like

2547
02:53:25,159 --> 02:53:28,520
in leather and these guys, you know, these transsexual and

2548
02:53:28,559 --> 02:53:31,239
stuff and spells. Just like he's like, what the hell

2549
02:53:31,360 --> 02:53:35,440
is happening? You know, and it's like, uh, you get

2550
02:53:35,479 --> 02:53:41,760
that sense like in the New Centurions, like especially like

2551
02:53:41,840 --> 02:53:44,920
in the dan Umois where like the characters passed finally

2552
02:53:44,959 --> 02:53:47,639
crossing to watch it's like, you know, I took this

2553
02:53:47,799 --> 02:53:51,799
job because I wanted to like help vulnerable people or whatever,

2554
02:53:51,840 --> 02:53:54,280
and like, I'm literally pinned down my a dumpster because

2555
02:53:54,280 --> 02:53:56,959
it's a sniper like popping off at me with a

2556
02:53:57,000 --> 02:54:03,479
thirty six, Like what's happening here? Like something's something's coming apart,

2557
02:54:03,719 --> 02:54:07,440
you know, And so it's worthwhile for every reason. Well

2558
02:54:08,000 --> 02:54:10,079
wrote some later books, and like I said, it's kind

2559
02:54:10,079 --> 02:54:14,479
of interestingly James Elroy what I have mixed feelings about.

2560
02:54:14,559 --> 02:54:19,520
But I I do think he's important to Los Angeles

2561
02:54:19,559 --> 02:54:24,440
culture in some ways, and I I identify with him

2562
02:54:24,440 --> 02:54:27,840
and in some respects. But he he said when he

2563
02:54:27,879 --> 02:54:33,319
was home with some he said, uh, he said, he

2564
02:54:33,399 --> 02:54:36,239
saved a bunch of his money from panhandling and stuff,

2565
02:54:36,280 --> 02:54:42,440
and and like and uh say goodbye the Onion Field.

2566
02:54:42,479 --> 02:54:44,040
It was like his favorite book, you know. And he

2567
02:54:44,680 --> 02:54:46,520
and he always like Whooped Up the Cops and things

2568
02:54:46,559 --> 02:54:51,399
like that. And so she she shot out Wamba a

2569
02:54:51,399 --> 02:54:55,040
lot in his books, and then Wamba started writing books

2570
02:54:55,120 --> 02:54:57,319
kind of in the vein of Elroy. Like the later

2571
02:54:57,360 --> 02:54:59,760
stuff he wrote was kind of like a hard boiled

2572
02:55:00,200 --> 02:55:02,600
type stuff. Like one of his books is about like

2573
02:55:02,719 --> 02:55:06,840
nineteen eighties, like like Salmonano Valley and like porn shit,

2574
02:55:07,559 --> 02:55:09,879
and it's kind of grimy. I mean, that's a grimy

2575
02:55:09,920 --> 02:55:14,840
fucking subject, but it but it's I didn't find it

2576
02:55:15,000 --> 02:55:18,040
off putting, but I thought that it was for tablo reasons.

2577
02:55:18,040 --> 02:55:19,920
I'm mean, I read all kinds of stuff that people

2578
02:55:20,079 --> 02:55:24,360
probably find I would think it's gross, but it seemed

2579
02:55:27,159 --> 02:55:29,959
so something. It seems kind of like affected about it.

2580
02:55:30,120 --> 02:55:36,079
But so I I wouldn't recommend is like later stuff,

2581
02:55:36,120 --> 02:55:39,239
but definitely definitely read The Onion Field. I don't read

2582
02:55:39,280 --> 02:55:41,159
The Choir Boys. The Choir Boys is one of the

2583
02:55:42,520 --> 02:55:44,840
when I was sending out Frog packages before it became

2584
02:55:44,879 --> 02:55:47,760
too like Bell Luminous to send them out to people.

2585
02:55:47,799 --> 02:55:49,319
I want to get back to doing that, but I'm

2586
02:55:49,319 --> 02:55:50,920
gonna have to do it in a way where it's

2587
02:55:50,920 --> 02:55:52,600
not just like me going to the post office and

2588
02:55:52,639 --> 02:55:56,239
sending packages. But I think I sent out like five

2589
02:55:56,319 --> 02:55:59,360
or six paperbacks to The Choir Boys because I like

2590
02:55:59,440 --> 02:56:06,319
the book that much and it uh, it's had a

2591
02:56:06,440 --> 02:56:12,920
not insignificant impact on my own writing. But yeah, that's

2592
02:56:12,920 --> 02:56:18,680
about all I got for one. I I appreciate you

2593
02:56:18,920 --> 02:56:24,120
abiding my suggestions because, like I said, I think I

2594
02:56:24,120 --> 02:56:30,920
think he's I think he's an important contributor to the

2595
02:56:31,000 --> 02:56:37,719
kind of catalog of police lid, particularly particularly in the

2596
02:56:38,040 --> 02:56:41,680
capacities we're talking about. So I thought it was important, man,

2597
02:56:42,479 --> 02:56:46,120
But I.

2598
02:56:43,239 --> 02:56:48,559
Speaker 1: Am I have I have a suggestion this This episode

2599
02:56:48,680 --> 02:56:53,799
was sort of sort of like our movie reviews, and

2600
02:56:54,639 --> 02:56:58,319
I think we should release one publicly so people can

2601
02:56:58,319 --> 02:57:01,520
see what's uh, you know, what we do. Yeah, man,

2602
02:57:01,639 --> 02:57:04,280
I think I think Resurrection Man would be a good

2603
02:57:04,280 --> 02:57:08,879
one to release publicly because that's one where you're just

2604
02:57:08,920 --> 02:57:11,799
breaking down the whole history of everything in the real

2605
02:57:11,840 --> 02:57:13,799
guys and area. I think people will really get off

2606
02:57:13,799 --> 02:57:14,079
on that.

2607
02:57:14,760 --> 02:57:16,479
Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the reasons I wanted to review it

2608
02:57:16,520 --> 02:57:18,879
is because I thought people would be thirsty, because people

2609
02:57:18,879 --> 02:57:22,719
when I draw troubles oriented content, like people seem to

2610
02:57:22,719 --> 02:57:24,600
be really interested in it, you know. And I try

2611
02:57:24,639 --> 02:57:28,879
and do so very respectfully because for obvious reasons. And

2612
02:57:28,920 --> 02:57:35,959
I'm lucky that you know, I'm lucky that Ulster natives,

2613
02:57:36,000 --> 02:57:38,639
including like you know, my dear friend Lady of Schelle,

2614
02:57:39,959 --> 02:57:42,879
I've been willing to collab with me on stuff, you know,

2615
02:57:42,959 --> 02:57:47,479
because that's my bloodline and my confessional heritage. But obviously,

2616
02:57:47,520 --> 02:57:51,840
I mean, I'm I'm a fucking like Chicago jag Off.

2617
02:57:51,879 --> 02:57:56,680
I don't know to them be incited to other than

2618
02:57:56,840 --> 02:57:58,879
I don't have any great insight into the troubles, man.

2619
02:57:59,120 --> 02:58:02,719
I just I, I mean, kind of an obsessive study

2620
02:58:02,760 --> 02:58:05,799
of it because it's my heritage. But obviously you know

2621
02:58:05,879 --> 02:58:10,879
that that's a totally different thing. But yeah, I think

2622
02:58:10,920 --> 02:58:12,639
if it I think I think if it got the

2623
02:58:12,799 --> 02:58:16,600
right audience, they would really pop. And yeah, that's a

2624
02:58:16,600 --> 02:58:18,600
good idea. I think now is the time they do it.

2625
02:58:19,879 --> 02:58:21,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll throw it up on my YouTube channel and

2626
02:58:21,920 --> 02:58:25,879
direct everyone there to it. So thank you for this.

2627
02:58:26,959 --> 02:58:30,840
We'll talk about what to do next and privately and

2628
02:58:31,719 --> 02:58:34,799
do some do some plugs, and I'm gonna go talk

2629
02:58:34,840 --> 02:58:36,920
to the o G that's talks to the old Glory

2630
02:58:36,959 --> 02:58:37,680
Club guys.

2631
02:58:38,239 --> 02:58:45,040
Speaker 2: That's great. I'm a I'm launching season three of the

2632
02:58:45,079 --> 02:58:49,159
pod the first week in February. And the guy who's

2633
02:58:49,159 --> 02:58:51,600
gonna collad with me on the first couple episodes, I

2634
02:58:51,680 --> 02:58:55,040
talked to him by phone today, which was which is awesome.

2635
02:58:56,319 --> 02:59:00,760
I'm gonna tweak it a little bit. I'll explain before

2636
02:59:00,760 --> 02:59:03,879
I releave, before I upload it, but I'm every day

2637
02:59:04,040 --> 02:59:07,680
today like I took five the first five episodes I'm

2638
02:59:07,680 --> 02:59:10,799
season one from behind the paywall. I'm gonna keep doing

2639
02:59:10,840 --> 02:59:13,200
that every day. I'm gonna remove five episodes from mind

2640
02:59:13,239 --> 02:59:16,040
the paywall until season one and two are totally free,

2641
02:59:16,799 --> 02:59:18,479
and I'm gonna I'm gonna upload a bunch of other

2642
02:59:18,559 --> 02:59:22,559
like free shit like content that I haven't released before.

2643
02:59:24,120 --> 02:59:27,159
You can find all of that good stuff on my substack.

2644
02:59:27,239 --> 02:59:31,040
It's real Thomas seven seven seven at substack dot substack

2645
02:59:31,079 --> 02:59:36,879
dot com, on social media at capital r E A

2646
02:59:37,040 --> 02:59:41,719
L number seven h O M A S seven seven seven,

2647
02:59:42,600 --> 02:59:45,000
and you can go to my website Thomas seven seven

2648
02:59:45,120 --> 02:59:48,399
seven dot com. But the first T or the only

2649
02:59:48,479 --> 02:59:51,200
T is a seven tho are the best plays to

2650
02:59:51,239 --> 02:59:53,680
define me. And like I said, I'm gonna make some changes,

2651
02:59:53,760 --> 02:59:56,680
but I keep everybody in the loop of what I'm doing.

2652
02:59:56,719 --> 02:59:59,239
Like on substack, you know, I at least once a

2653
02:59:59,239 --> 03:00:02,040
week I shout out like what's happening and what I'm doing.

2654
03:00:02,559 --> 03:00:04,559
So that's the place to go.

2655
03:00:06,200 --> 03:00:08,719
Speaker 1: All right, thank you so much. Until the next time,

2656
03:00:08,920 --> 03:00:09,280
Jean