WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:03.799 Let's get into a little bit of what Redeemed Zuomer, 2 00:00:03.839 --> 00:00:06.719 who seems to have spiraled out of control since our debate. 3 00:00:08.119 --> 00:00:13.199 For whatever reason, he posted that he was freaking out 4 00:00:13.400 --> 00:00:16.440 that people in his discord were converting to Orthodoxy and 5 00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:18.839 he was going to ban talking about Orthodox stuff because 6 00:00:18.879 --> 00:00:21.480 so many people in his discord we're starting to look 7 00:00:21.519 --> 00:00:29.039 into Orthodoxy. It doesn't seem like since our discussion he's 8 00:00:29.120 --> 00:00:33.039 engaged in any attempts to better understand our positions. It 9 00:00:33.079 --> 00:00:36.799 seems like he's in damage control mode and flipping out constantly. 10 00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:42.079 And he does the thing where he'll say a bunch 11 00:00:42.079 --> 00:00:45.359 of stuff about you personally and then apologize and then 12 00:00:45.359 --> 00:00:47.759 we'll go. So just keep it to the issues. Okay, 13 00:00:48.079 --> 00:00:53.119 I never said anything about him personally, So if you 14 00:00:53.200 --> 00:00:56.119 respond to this, just keep it to the issues, because 15 00:00:56.119 --> 00:00:59.880 I'm not I never said anything about you as an individual. 16 00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:05.400 Redeem Zuomer mastering reform theology? Well, does Redeem Zumer actually 17 00:01:05.439 --> 00:01:07.920 have a master's in theology? Why would we think that 18 00:01:07.959 --> 00:01:14.000 he can teach us master level stuff in theology as 19 00:01:14.200 --> 00:01:16.560 what is he like twenty one? As you? 20 00:01:16.640 --> 00:01:19.439 But despite the differences between Catholics and Protestants, they're a 21 00:01:19.480 --> 00:01:22.200 lot closer to each other than they are to Eastern Orthodoxy. 22 00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:25.560 The biggest split in Christianity was not the Protestant Reformation, 23 00:01:25.879 --> 00:01:27.640 it was the Great Schism. 24 00:01:27.239 --> 00:01:31.200 Between Protestants and Romancalities are closer to each other. I'm 25 00:01:31.200 --> 00:01:32.760 not sure about that. I mean, I guess it just 26 00:01:32.760 --> 00:01:36.079 depends on which doctrine we pick. So I'm assuming he's 27 00:01:36.079 --> 00:01:37.359 going to pick original Sin, I. 28 00:01:37.439 --> 00:01:41.400 Mean, Western and Eastern Christianity. Here's why we Reformed Protestants 29 00:01:41.519 --> 00:01:42.640 side with the West. 30 00:01:48.239 --> 00:01:50.159 What the heck kind of music is this? I feel 31 00:01:50.159 --> 00:01:53.400 like I'm at Santa's Village and I'm supposed to what 32 00:01:53.439 --> 00:01:56.959 do we picking up? Freaking It's a year round Santa's 33 00:01:57.000 --> 00:02:00.840 Village where I'm picking up ornaments? What kind of weird 34 00:02:01.159 --> 00:02:05.799 keyboard like boomer keyboard Cassio's songs is he playing? 35 00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:10.000 Eastern Orthodoxy is a beautiful tradition that we can all 36 00:02:10.000 --> 00:02:12.199 be inspired by. But the reason we don't agree with 37 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:14.840 them is because Eastern theology denies a lot of things 38 00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:15.879 that the Bible teaches. 39 00:02:16.599 --> 00:02:18.919 So we're going to have the old word concept fallacy 40 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:23.120 that even though we all agree that the texts have 41 00:02:23.199 --> 00:02:26.280 to be interpreted, I'm just going to say that the 42 00:02:26.319 --> 00:02:28.439 words mean what they say, and they say what they mean. 43 00:02:28.719 --> 00:02:32.360 So this is a common mistake that we see Muslims, 44 00:02:32.479 --> 00:02:36.360 Roman Catholics, Protestants, and even some Orthodox engage in, which 45 00:02:36.439 --> 00:02:40.919 is just the basic idea that there's a plain, simple 46 00:02:41.039 --> 00:02:46.680 meaning of all texts and that other traditions get quote 47 00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:51.080 too philosophical and they don't stick to the plain, perspicuity 48 00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:57.240 meaning of the text. But our texts perspicuous, do they 49 00:02:57.280 --> 00:03:07.159 actually possess perspose? Do they possess viscosity? Breakdown? No, it 50 00:03:07.319 --> 00:03:09.960 really I mean, you could say within a book that 51 00:03:10.159 --> 00:03:13.560 it's possible that certain texts are clearer than other texts. 52 00:03:14.120 --> 00:03:17.240 Certainly within the Bible, certain texts are clearer than other texts, 53 00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:20.080 but that's partly going to depend on who's reading it, 54 00:03:20.159 --> 00:03:22.719 and what their education level is, what their background is, 55 00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:25.759 what they do, and don't know how familiar they are 56 00:03:25.800 --> 00:03:28.840 with the rest of the book. So saying, even admitting 57 00:03:28.879 --> 00:03:32.319 that certain areas of the Bible might be clearer than 58 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:35.879 other areas still doesn't itself tell us to each individual 59 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:39.159 which area will be clearer. In other words, something that 60 00:03:39.199 --> 00:03:44.120 an educated person thinks is pretty obvious might not be 61 00:03:44.199 --> 00:03:47.919 obvious to an an educated person. Maybe they're reading about 62 00:03:48.520 --> 00:03:52.479 you know, through the eye of a needle or something 63 00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:57.639 like that, right, and you don't know this rhetorical idiom 64 00:03:57.719 --> 00:04:01.919 or whatever. You don't know this hyperbole. Okay, Well, if 65 00:04:01.919 --> 00:04:07.159 you're an uneducated person, that might be totally ambiguous to you. 66 00:04:08.479 --> 00:04:11.400 An educated person might think, well, this is obviously hyperbole. 67 00:04:11.639 --> 00:04:13.520 So you see that even when we say, or even 68 00:04:13.560 --> 00:04:18.279 if we admit that there are quote clearer passages, it 69 00:04:18.319 --> 00:04:22.959 doesn't itself tell us which passages are themselves universally clear 70 00:04:23.079 --> 00:04:25.839 or unclear. So a lot of times Protestants and we 71 00:04:25.879 --> 00:04:28.800 notice the same thing with Muslims. It's exact move that 72 00:04:28.920 --> 00:04:33.000 Jake did. Have a very naive epistemology and a naive 73 00:04:33.279 --> 00:04:37.160 linguistic theory or semiotic view that the text just mean 74 00:04:37.240 --> 00:04:38.920 what they say, and they say what they mean, and 75 00:04:39.439 --> 00:04:43.839 that typically goes along with word concept fallacy. People who 76 00:04:43.879 --> 00:04:47.519 have that one dimensional view of language and texts typically 77 00:04:47.519 --> 00:04:49.920 fall into the mistake, as I'm sure we're going to 78 00:04:49.959 --> 00:04:56.000 see with Redeemed Zuomer, of thinking that the word that's 79 00:04:56.079 --> 00:04:59.000 used always has the same meaning in the same context 80 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:02.519 and the same reference. So, for example, logos as it's 81 00:05:02.639 --> 00:05:05.480 used by the this is a common Roman Catholic word 82 00:05:05.480 --> 00:05:10.560 concept fallacy. Well, Marcus Aurelius says logos. John One says logos. 83 00:05:10.639 --> 00:05:12.759 So they mean and refer to the exact same thing. 84 00:05:15.360 --> 00:05:18.720 Maybe they do, maybe they don't. Just because the word 85 00:05:18.839 --> 00:05:22.680 is used. We need to know the intentional context, and 86 00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:27.680 the lexical context, and the entire books context, and perhaps 87 00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:31.399 even the entire religion's context. So you see that individual 88 00:05:31.480 --> 00:05:36.439 words are situated within broader context, the sentence, the paragraph, 89 00:05:37.240 --> 00:05:40.319 the chapter, the book, the book as a whole is 90 00:05:40.360 --> 00:05:42.639 in the case of the Bible, because it's books within books, 91 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:46.959 and then the tradition as a whole. Perhaps, So, for example, 92 00:05:47.079 --> 00:05:53.480 I can't take a word that is exterior to the 93 00:05:53.600 --> 00:05:58.319 Orthodox tradition or to the Biblical tradition, find that word 94 00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:02.920 in say greekfulilosophy or Platonism, and then interpret that word 95 00:06:02.959 --> 00:06:05.839 within the Christian context as having a one to one 96 00:06:06.199 --> 00:06:09.839 meaning with the Greek term. This happens a lot, for 97 00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:13.639 example with news. Well, the Greek philosophers use the word 98 00:06:13.720 --> 00:06:16.240 news when you Orthodox use it, that must mean the 99 00:06:16.240 --> 00:06:19.680 same thing. So it's just purely the intellect or some 100 00:06:20.199 --> 00:06:23.560 higher faculty of the intellect. According to say Greek philosophers, 101 00:06:23.879 --> 00:06:27.519 it's not what it means an Orthodox. It corresponds to 102 00:06:27.560 --> 00:06:29.920 the Hebrew idea of the heart, which is not the intellect. 103 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:33.199 So you see that with whether it's news or whether 104 00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:35.920 it's logos. These are just examples, but the same type 105 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:41.319 of mistake can happen when we're looking at even English 106 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:47.759 texts or English words like person, Does person mean just 107 00:06:47.879 --> 00:06:53.160 an individual? Nature? Does it mean something distinct from nature? 108 00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:58.000 How we understand person and nature, for example, will have 109 00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:01.079 tremendous implications on our view of the Trinity, in our 110 00:07:01.160 --> 00:07:05.360 view of Christology. So a big part of this mistake, 111 00:07:05.399 --> 00:07:09.920 and a big part of this really rookie sophomore understanding, 112 00:07:10.759 --> 00:07:14.199 and a lot of Internet people engage in very common 113 00:07:14.199 --> 00:07:18.959 amongst Protestants and Muslims, somewhat common amongst Roman Catholics as well, 114 00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:22.240 but maybe less Roman Catholics. The Roman Catholics tend to be, 115 00:07:22.519 --> 00:07:25.040 if they're into these topics, a little more educated than 116 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:29.279 the average Muslim or the average Protestant, so they can 117 00:07:29.360 --> 00:07:33.759 sometimes avoid some of this issue. But as Saint Basil says, 118 00:07:34.079 --> 00:07:38.199 pretty much every heretic is making some kind of linguistic mistake, 119 00:07:38.600 --> 00:07:42.360 usually right, and he's speaking in that case of eunomious 120 00:07:42.360 --> 00:07:47.959 and the Eunomian heresy kind of giving the idea of 121 00:07:48.199 --> 00:07:53.279 ingeneracy or unngenerate in generate basically identifying that with the 122 00:07:53.319 --> 00:07:57.519 divine essence, and so therefore anything that's not in generate 123 00:07:57.759 --> 00:08:02.399 or ungenerated is therefore not God or less than God. 124 00:08:02.439 --> 00:08:06.319 Hence the son, since he is not ingenerate, and he 125 00:08:06.439 --> 00:08:10.199 is generate or has an origin, or he is not unoriginate, 126 00:08:10.959 --> 00:08:13.439 then he must not be God. That's the Eunomian premise, 127 00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:17.800 or that's the version of the Eunomian argument. And so 128 00:08:18.600 --> 00:08:22.360 Basil argues against this as the arrest of capitations. Do 129 00:08:23.000 --> 00:08:27.759 that not every word is referring to or picking out 130 00:08:27.800 --> 00:08:30.160 the same thing, right, Think about how many times we've 131 00:08:30.199 --> 00:08:33.000 made this argument with the phrase like doctor Branson does 132 00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:37.080 God g Od? Because God can pick out different things, 133 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:39.960 And many many Muslims since the Jake debate have already 134 00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:43.440 been saying, oh, you lost the debate when you said 135 00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:46.879 you believed in little g three little g gods, and 136 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:48.960 the argument there is just missing the whole point that 137 00:08:49.000 --> 00:08:53.200 this is a linguistic distinction between what God can pick out, 138 00:08:53.279 --> 00:08:58.320 as in distinct persons, divine nature, and so the one 139 00:08:58.360 --> 00:09:02.000 True God, the one God. Capital typically is picking out 140 00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:04.360 the person of the Father, at least in the Patristic period. 141 00:09:04.360 --> 00:09:09.519 That's always what it is, and that's why the nicing 142 00:09:09.559 --> 00:09:12.480 Creed is a monarchical trinitarian doctrine that says, I believe 143 00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:15.759 in one God, the Father. All the Capitalians speak this way. 144 00:09:17.240 --> 00:09:23.399 So little g God then refers to God from God. 145 00:09:24.039 --> 00:09:26.679 Did you notice the nicing Creed says God from God, 146 00:09:26.799 --> 00:09:35.519 light from light. Okay. So that's a distinction within unity. 147 00:09:35.960 --> 00:09:38.200 That's the way that we account for distinction within unity. 148 00:09:38.279 --> 00:09:42.440 Of course, Muslims, for example, whatever their position, whether they're 149 00:09:42.559 --> 00:09:51.360 a Shari or Salafi, or whether they're whatever Athari, the 150 00:09:51.440 --> 00:09:56.559 different Muslim positions Neil, Platonist, Shia, they're all going to 151 00:09:56.600 --> 00:09:59.840 have different ways and attempts of accounting for unity and 152 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:03.039 distinction in God. So that's why I typically frame the 153 00:10:03.039 --> 00:10:05.480 debate what the Muslims has. It's not a debate between 154 00:10:05.559 --> 00:10:09.399 multiple who's got the unity position and who's the polytheist. 155 00:10:09.840 --> 00:10:12.200 It's two different positions. Give me an account for unity 156 00:10:12.200 --> 00:10:15.399 and multiplicity. And that's why the counting issue is so 157 00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:21.159 important there because both Muslims and Christians, when they're accounting 158 00:10:21.159 --> 00:10:23.279 for unity and distinction in God, are going to count 159 00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:28.120 by division and by identity. And if you didn't notice, 160 00:10:28.279 --> 00:10:32.679 when the Creed, for example, says undivided God is undivided, 161 00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:39.279 that's counting by division. When al Gazali in his Tenth 162 00:10:39.360 --> 00:10:43.080 Proposition and the Moderation of Belief book talks about being 163 00:10:43.159 --> 00:10:47.159 God being undivided, he's counting by division. Aristotle and category 164 00:10:47.279 --> 00:10:49.919 six metaphysics, I think it's around book ten and metaphysics 165 00:10:50.559 --> 00:10:58.279 counting by division. Now, I didn't say any ancient medieval 166 00:10:58.279 --> 00:11:00.679 world they only counted by the division. That was a 167 00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:04.879 mistake that Jake assumed that because I said they counted 168 00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:07.480 by division, I said they only counted by division. No, 169 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:11.279 I said first order, second order, and position, two different 170 00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:14.919 types of things even in the medieval philosophers that were 171 00:11:14.960 --> 00:11:20.799 counted in different ways. So it would have actually behooved 172 00:11:20.919 --> 00:11:25.240 Jake to be familiar with some of the responses to 173 00:11:25.840 --> 00:11:28.919 the argument that we only count by identity, because he 174 00:11:29.039 --> 00:11:31.159 just assumed that I was saying, no, we only count 175 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:33.279 by division, which I didn't say. I said we count 176 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:36.039 in both ways. And then he set up a false 177 00:11:36.080 --> 00:11:39.240 either or which he didn't realize would trap his own 178 00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:44.799 position that if he's going to count the attributes by identity, 179 00:11:45.240 --> 00:11:50.960 then he's got multiple necessary attributes, which is a makes 180 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:54.000 his position policyist. So there you go. 181 00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:56.399 A thousand years ago, Christianity split in half when the 182 00:11:56.440 --> 00:11:58.320 Patriarch of the East got kicked out of the church 183 00:11:58.360 --> 00:12:00.799 by the Pope. Now, a lot of this political, but 184 00:12:00.799 --> 00:12:03.039 it was also theological, meaning it has to do with 185 00:12:03.080 --> 00:12:06.120 what we think about God. Even though Catholics and Protestants 186 00:12:06.159 --> 00:12:08.480 disagree on a lot, they have the exact same view 187 00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:11.440 of God. The Eastern view is slightly different. There's really 188 00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:14.240 six main issues they disagree on, which can be abbreviated 189 00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:15.879 with the acronym Frost. 190 00:12:16.679 --> 00:12:23.679 Frost and all. Well, this is an interesting, unique approach 191 00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:26.320 to this question. Let's see what is What do we 192 00:12:26.360 --> 00:12:36.759 disagree on? Philioquate reason, maybe original sin, probably simplicity, Yeah, 193 00:12:37.080 --> 00:12:41.320 theasis sacrifice, Well, the Roman Catholic and the Protestant view 194 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:42.960 of sacrifice are not the same. So I don't know 195 00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:44.919 where he's gonna I don't know if he thinks he's 196 00:12:44.960 --> 00:12:48.600 gonna find commonality with Roman Catholics on quote sacrifice. 197 00:12:49.039 --> 00:12:51.399 All these issues are connected to each other. For each 198 00:12:51.399 --> 00:12:53.720 of these issues, there's a Western view and an Eastern view, 199 00:12:53.960 --> 00:12:55.919 and the Western view of all these issues is the 200 00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:57.399 biblical one, the biggest. 201 00:12:57.639 --> 00:13:00.559 Okay, yeah, good one good argument there, Just at that 202 00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:03.600 the quote West is right on all of these issues 203 00:13:03.639 --> 00:13:06.039 and the East is wrong. I'm sure he's going to 204 00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:13.600 give some kind of argument, but I'm not sure that you. 205 00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:16.039 I'm not sure that actually this is I mean Roman 206 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:18.679 Catholics on the Philly oquay. I mean, they have a 207 00:13:18.679 --> 00:13:22.480 lot more of a nuanced position. But this is kind 208 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:27.799 of assuming that Reformed and Protestants themselves have a unified position. 209 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:31.320 Where does he get the idea that quote Protestantism is 210 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:35.679 a unified position on any of these issues at all. 211 00:13:36.519 --> 00:13:40.399 There's no Protestant unity. Maybe you could say there's unity 212 00:13:40.399 --> 00:13:44.519 on like a couple super generic positions, like we follow 213 00:13:44.559 --> 00:13:49.279 the Bible over tradition. Okay, maybe that's one of the 214 00:13:49.559 --> 00:13:55.919 quote unifying things of Protestants. Roman Catholics and Protestants don't 215 00:13:55.919 --> 00:13:59.480 have the same view of sacrifice. I don't know what 216 00:13:59.519 --> 00:14:02.759 he thinks the Western view of Theosis's that's different from 217 00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:07.840 I mean, do protests don't even teach Theosis? So I 218 00:14:07.879 --> 00:14:10.600 mean this is again I'm predicting this is going to 219 00:14:10.639 --> 00:14:12.080 all be a bunch of word concept. 220 00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:14.600 Felt disagreement is the villioque. As we said in the 221 00:14:14.600 --> 00:14:16.799 first video, all Christians believe in the Trinity, which is 222 00:14:16.840 --> 00:14:19.159 that the three persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit 223 00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:21.600 are all God, which means they all have everything that 224 00:14:21.639 --> 00:14:22.399 makes God God. 225 00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:25.120 So he doesn't even know what monarchical trinitarianism is. He 226 00:14:25.159 --> 00:14:28.639 doesn't even know that that's the view that's established at 227 00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:34.080 the Second Ecumenical Council, which is the official Church's Trinity Council. 228 00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:35.320 So he didn't even know that. 229 00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:37.080 But if they all have the same. 230 00:14:37.159 --> 00:14:38.440 I think I brought all this up in our debate 231 00:14:38.480 --> 00:14:39.120 by look. 232 00:14:38.879 --> 00:14:41.000 In properties, then what makes them different from each other? 233 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:44.480 The free person, Hey, Jamie, could you make me a coffee? 234 00:14:45.720 --> 00:14:47.360 Could you put a little Manuka honey in it? Thank you? 235 00:14:47.399 --> 00:14:48.519 I got a cup in here. 236 00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:50.960 Those are only different from each other in their relations 237 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:51.559 to each other. 238 00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:53.879 So what are these yeah? And so if they're only 239 00:14:53.879 --> 00:14:56.559 different by relation, then the thing that makes them distinct 240 00:14:56.720 --> 00:14:59.639 isn't anything unique. And so this is one of the 241 00:14:59.679 --> 00:15:04.600 crit that Lasky has of Western trinitarianism so called, which 242 00:15:04.679 --> 00:15:09.679 is that person reduces to a relation. But Eastern theology 243 00:15:09.960 --> 00:15:13.559 is premised on the idea that persona is persona at 244 00:15:13.559 --> 00:15:18.000 relatio is false. Person cannot be identified with a relation, 245 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:22.279 person is subject or agent. And and I brought this 246 00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:24.120 up in our debate, and he was completely lost, by 247 00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:26.639 the way, so none of what I said apparently stuck 248 00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:29.679 sunk in from our debate. And he's just sort of 249 00:15:29.679 --> 00:15:31.559 look at and what does all this? It looks like 250 00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:36.840 a freaking football team's you know, is he like Rudy 251 00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:42.000 over here? He's drawing the plays of the West, you know, 252 00:15:42.120 --> 00:15:47.840 Like I don't know, I mean, I hate football movies, 253 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:49.919 but the Rudy is the only one I can even 254 00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:53.519 think of that I've ever watched. Right, So he's over 255 00:15:53.519 --> 00:15:57.600 here like Rudy, trying to trying to rally his team, drawing, 256 00:15:57.759 --> 00:16:00.440 drawing the Trinity and the philioquis someone of confused ass 257 00:16:01.279 --> 00:16:04.559 gibberish football play relations. 258 00:16:04.639 --> 00:16:07.360 According to the West, the Son is eternally generated from 259 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:10.120 the Father, and the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the 260 00:16:10.159 --> 00:16:13.000 Father and the Son or philioque in Latin. 261 00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:16.440 Notice we haven't had any so far as just saying positions, 262 00:16:16.440 --> 00:16:17.639 no arguments yet. 263 00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:20.080 But according to the East, the Holy Spirit only proceeds 264 00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:22.679 from the Father and not the Son. The first question 265 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:24.759 should be what does the Bible say. The Bible very 266 00:16:24.759 --> 00:16:26.679 clearly says the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of the 267 00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:28.320 Father is also the spirit of the. 268 00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:32.720 Son or so level one mistakes. He doesn't understand the 269 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:38.000 difference between economia and theology proper, or the intratrinitarian life 270 00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:41.879 versus the economia. So doesn't even know that, not even 271 00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:44.759 a level one understanding of what the Phillioquay issue is. 272 00:16:44.759 --> 00:16:47.200 The spirit of Christ. Many many times it says the 273 00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:49.519 Holy Spirit is from the Son or of the Son. 274 00:16:49.600 --> 00:16:52.120 Yeah, nobody in the Orthodox Church disagrees with that. That 275 00:16:52.159 --> 00:16:53.639 was never even part of the debate. 276 00:16:53.799 --> 00:16:54.679 That should settle it. 277 00:16:54.919 --> 00:16:57.679 But still the East, I mean literally doesn't even know 278 00:16:57.720 --> 00:16:58.399 the issue it. 279 00:16:58.519 --> 00:17:00.759 This is the West of adding the Opate to the 280 00:17:00.840 --> 00:17:02.600 Nicene Creed when it wasn't there before. 281 00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:06.039 And we don't accuse the West of doing it. The 282 00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:08.759 West admits to doing it, and pote Leo the third 283 00:17:08.920 --> 00:17:11.880 forbade it from being added. So that's again, it doesn't 284 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:12.759 even know basic history. 285 00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:14.680 This is technically true, but it kind of doesn't matter 286 00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:16.720 because neither of them use the original version of the 287 00:17:16.759 --> 00:17:17.400 Nicene Creed. 288 00:17:17.559 --> 00:17:20.720 Yeah, but the argument isn't that we only follow the 289 00:17:20.759 --> 00:17:24.319 creed as it's produced at Nicea. The argument is that 290 00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:30.000 Constantinapolitan creed, the Niceno concept of Politan creed is forbidden 291 00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:34.119 at Ephesus from being added to. So the clause that 292 00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:37.400 you and then Chalcedon, right, So Ephysis and Chalcedon are 293 00:17:37.400 --> 00:17:39.400 the ones that say that you can't alter the creed. 294 00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:42.920 It's not nicea one that says the creed can't be changed. 295 00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:45.319 So this is misunderstanding. This is an old, a stupid 296 00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:48.359 old argument to Bara made that he didn't even realize 297 00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:52.400 that it's not Nicea that forbids the change the changes 298 00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:54.799 forbidden after it's already been. 299 00:17:54.759 --> 00:17:57.599 Changed, which didn't have the paragraph about the Holy Spirit. 300 00:17:57.759 --> 00:18:00.759 All of this is like level literally level one oh 301 00:18:00.759 --> 00:18:01.519 one mistakes. 302 00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:04.519 So both of them use an updated version. It's just 303 00:18:04.519 --> 00:18:07.240 that the Western version is slightly more updated. And just 304 00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:09.960 because the original Creed didn't have the philioquay doesn't mean 305 00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:12.000 people didn't believe in the philioquay back then. 306 00:18:12.519 --> 00:18:14.960 Actually it does. Because number one, he doesn't even understand 307 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:18.200 what the issue is. It's about the hypostatic properties, and 308 00:18:18.279 --> 00:18:22.480 whether the father is the sole cause hence monarchical trinitarianism 309 00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:26.200 as taught by the Cappadocians, and whether or not the 310 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:29.599 hypesech property of the father can be shared, given to, 311 00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:32.480 or in any way participated in by the son. 312 00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:34.720 That's the issue, especially because so many of the most 313 00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:37.160 important people that we talked about in the previous videos 314 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:39.680 did believe in it. Some of the greatest defenders of 315 00:18:39.680 --> 00:18:42.680 true teaching, like Saint Athanasius sant. 316 00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:46.279 Anthonasia doesn't believe in the Philioquay. This is easily debunked 317 00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:51.119 in Sishchensky's book. Really the only there's one quote in 318 00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:56.559 Ambrose that could be read as Philioquay and then Saint Augustine. 319 00:18:56.839 --> 00:18:59.640 So for the West, that's it. We did a whole 320 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:02.799 live stream with doctor Branson who did his dissertation on 321 00:19:02.839 --> 00:19:07.720 the cab of Doceans and uh, there's one phrase in 322 00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:13.599 Nissa's against Eunomius that's used as a proof text. But 323 00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:17.920 as doctor Branson points out, that one phrase in against 324 00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:21.240 Eunomius goes against the rest of the thrust of the text, 325 00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:24.400 and because it's an ambiguous passage, it makes more sense 326 00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:28.839 to interpret the one phrase in Nissa's text in harmony 327 00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:30.920 with the rest of the texts that are a lot clearer, 328 00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:34.599 where he specifies that there's only one sole cause, and 329 00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:37.880 that is the hypostasis of the Father. It's not the 330 00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:41.200 divine nature. So you can refer back to the three 331 00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:44.039 hour livestream that we did going through the entire Skshensky 332 00:19:44.039 --> 00:19:46.680 book on the Philly oquay, which is the most up 333 00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:49.680 to date academic text on it from a person who 334 00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:52.480 was rom Macalo that became Orthodox, And you can also 335 00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:54.759 go watch the recent Doctor Branson stream that we did 336 00:19:54.799 --> 00:19:57.480 where we dove deep into these topics as well, leaving 337 00:19:57.559 --> 00:20:01.440 essentially no argumentation for the Philly equali other than Augustine. 338 00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:01.720 That's it. 339 00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:02.920 The spirit is from the son. 340 00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:06.279 Oh wait, we don't go by one guy, So for 341 00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:10.519 perfectly a Protestant mindset that, oh, where do I get 342 00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:13.920 my canon? I'll pick Jerome one guy. Where do I 343 00:20:13.960 --> 00:20:19.160 get my trinity doctrine? All Augustine? One guy? Yeah, it's 344 00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:26.119 the Constantinopolitan council, the second echemical council that trumps any 345 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:28.319 single dude way. 346 00:20:28.359 --> 00:20:31.359 The son is from the Father or Saint Cyril of Alexandria, 347 00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:33.039 explicitly saying the Holy Spirit. 348 00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:34.960 Yeah, if you read the rest of Cyril, and if 349 00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:37.440 you read the treatment that Sashinsky says, this is not 350 00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:41.759 what he's talking about. The procession is what he's talking about. 351 00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:44.559 Just because the word proceeds is used, that just means 352 00:20:44.599 --> 00:20:48.599 come forth, So it's not always in the English translation 353 00:20:48.759 --> 00:20:54.200 identical to hypostatic origin. So we agree that the manifestation 354 00:20:54.319 --> 00:20:57.319 of the spirit and the energies is through the son, right, 355 00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:00.839 and that's taught by gregor Cyprus. That's at the the 356 00:21:00.920 --> 00:21:05.000 later Palomize synods. You could read Crisis and Byzantium by 357 00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:08.799 Papadoccus on that. But just because you see the word proceeds, 358 00:21:08.839 --> 00:21:10.240 you notice that he did the same thing with the 359 00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:14.039 biblical texts right, comes from the Sun, Yeah, but in 360 00:21:14.079 --> 00:21:16.440 what sense comes from the sun in terms of manifestation, 361 00:21:17.240 --> 00:21:21.960 proceeding forth through manifestation or a proceeding forth as hypostetic origin. 362 00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:23.440 You see, those are two different things. 363 00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:26.400 Ads from the Father and the son. Or Pope Leo 364 00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:28.759 also saying the spirit proceeds from the Father, and he's 365 00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:29.680 saying the Holy Spirit. 366 00:21:30.039 --> 00:21:31.839 By the way, if you notice that text right there, 367 00:21:31.880 --> 00:21:35.039 the Holy Spirit when he is in us right comes 368 00:21:35.079 --> 00:21:38.960 from father and son. That's economium. So even the text 369 00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:42.079 that he's got right, there is an economic relation and 370 00:21:42.079 --> 00:21:44.119 not a eternal hyposthetic origin. 371 00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:46.759 Relation proceeds from the father and the son, or Pope 372 00:21:46.839 --> 00:21:49.079 Leo also saying the spirit proceeds from the father and 373 00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:49.400 the son. 374 00:21:49.480 --> 00:21:53.119 Yeah, this is also dealt with in the Sashensky books. 375 00:21:53.119 --> 00:21:54.799 So this is why it doesn't work to do quote 376 00:21:54.839 --> 00:21:58.079 minds to prove this kind of stuff. It's basically just 377 00:21:58.119 --> 00:22:00.599 ignoring all of the scholarship that ex lanes to you 378 00:22:01.119 --> 00:22:06.440 the difference between hyposthetic origin and manifestation, which is necessary 379 00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:08.960 to have a coherent doctrine eternity. By the way, Romancolics 380 00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:12.039 typically don't even know this or understand this unless they 381 00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:18.240 happen to be kind of brainiac uniates. Really, brainiac uniates 382 00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:20.440 are the only ones that are even kind of aware 383 00:22:20.440 --> 00:22:23.319 of this. But it's actually brought up by the way 384 00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:26.079 in the Vatican clarificational. 385 00:22:25.480 --> 00:22:32.000 Opilioqui both sides recognize these people as the heroes of 386 00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:34.480 the early Church. Now the East response to this by 387 00:22:34.519 --> 00:22:36.440 saying the Bible and the Church fathers are only talking 388 00:22:36.440 --> 00:22:38.920 about energetic procession, not hypostatic procession. 389 00:22:39.480 --> 00:22:49.359 No, actually, you already confused economia with intratrinitarian life and origin, 390 00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:52.079 so we don't just say that it's that. 391 00:22:52.359 --> 00:22:54.960 So you misunderstood that partly because they think there's a 392 00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:58.079 difference between God's essence and God's energies. But that creates 393 00:22:58.079 --> 00:22:58.640 a whole. 394 00:22:58.640 --> 00:23:01.440 Yeah, that actually comes from the Bible. Right, So Paul 395 00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:03.640 makes this distinction when he talks about the energies of 396 00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:05.920 the spirit. Right, we have this when we talk when 397 00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:09.039 we read about the seven spirits of God. Okay, do 398 00:23:09.079 --> 00:23:11.440 you think God's knowledge, God's wisdom, et cetera. Are they 399 00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:15.079 creatures or are they really distinct things. I'm pretty sure 400 00:23:15.079 --> 00:23:18.559 foreign knowledge is different from the divine essence. I'm pretty 401 00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:21.039