1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,799 Speaker 1: Let's get into a little bit of what Redeemed Zuomer, 2 00:00:03,839 --> 00:00:06,719 who seems to have spiraled out of control since our debate. 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:13,199 For whatever reason, he posted that he was freaking out 4 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,440 that people in his discord were converting to Orthodoxy and 5 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:18,839 he was going to ban talking about Orthodox stuff because 6 00:00:18,879 --> 00:00:21,480 so many people in his discord we're starting to look 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:29,039 into Orthodoxy. It doesn't seem like since our discussion he's 8 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:33,039 engaged in any attempts to better understand our positions. It 9 00:00:33,079 --> 00:00:36,799 seems like he's in damage control mode and flipping out constantly. 10 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:42,079 And he does the thing where he'll say a bunch 11 00:00:42,079 --> 00:00:45,359 of stuff about you personally and then apologize and then 12 00:00:45,359 --> 00:00:47,759 we'll go. So just keep it to the issues. Okay, 13 00:00:48,079 --> 00:00:53,119 I never said anything about him personally, So if you 14 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,119 respond to this, just keep it to the issues, because 15 00:00:56,119 --> 00:00:59,880 I'm not I never said anything about you as an individual. 16 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:05,400 Redeem Zuomer mastering reform theology? Well, does Redeem Zumer actually 17 00:01:05,439 --> 00:01:07,920 have a master's in theology? Why would we think that 18 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:14,000 he can teach us master level stuff in theology as 19 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:16,560 what is he like twenty one? As you? 20 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:19,439 Speaker 2: But despite the differences between Catholics and Protestants, they're a 21 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,200 lot closer to each other than they are to Eastern Orthodoxy. 22 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,560 The biggest split in Christianity was not the Protestant Reformation, 23 00:01:25,879 --> 00:01:27,640 it was the Great Schism. 24 00:01:27,239 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: Between Protestants and Romancalities are closer to each other. I'm 25 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:32,760 not sure about that. I mean, I guess it just 26 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:36,079 depends on which doctrine we pick. So I'm assuming he's 27 00:01:36,079 --> 00:01:37,359 going to pick original Sin, I. 28 00:01:37,439 --> 00:01:41,400 Speaker 2: Mean, Western and Eastern Christianity. Here's why we Reformed Protestants 29 00:01:41,519 --> 00:01:42,640 side with the West. 30 00:01:48,239 --> 00:01:50,159 Speaker 1: What the heck kind of music is this? I feel 31 00:01:50,159 --> 00:01:53,400 like I'm at Santa's Village and I'm supposed to what 32 00:01:53,439 --> 00:01:56,959 do we picking up? Freaking It's a year round Santa's 33 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,840 Village where I'm picking up ornaments? What kind of weird 34 00:02:01,159 --> 00:02:05,799 keyboard like boomer keyboard Cassio's songs is he playing? 35 00:02:07,439 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 2: Eastern Orthodoxy is a beautiful tradition that we can all 36 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,199 be inspired by. But the reason we don't agree with 37 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:14,840 them is because Eastern theology denies a lot of things 38 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:15,879 that the Bible teaches. 39 00:02:16,599 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 1: So we're going to have the old word concept fallacy 40 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:23,120 that even though we all agree that the texts have 41 00:02:23,199 --> 00:02:26,280 to be interpreted, I'm just going to say that the 42 00:02:26,319 --> 00:02:28,439 words mean what they say, and they say what they mean. 43 00:02:28,719 --> 00:02:32,360 So this is a common mistake that we see Muslims, 44 00:02:32,479 --> 00:02:36,360 Roman Catholics, Protestants, and even some Orthodox engage in, which 45 00:02:36,439 --> 00:02:40,919 is just the basic idea that there's a plain, simple 46 00:02:41,039 --> 00:02:46,680 meaning of all texts and that other traditions get quote 47 00:02:46,719 --> 00:02:51,080 too philosophical and they don't stick to the plain, perspicuity 48 00:02:51,439 --> 00:02:57,240 meaning of the text. But our texts perspicuous, do they 49 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:07,159 actually possess perspose? Do they possess viscosity? Breakdown? No, it 50 00:03:07,319 --> 00:03:09,960 really I mean, you could say within a book that 51 00:03:10,159 --> 00:03:13,560 it's possible that certain texts are clearer than other texts. 52 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,240 Certainly within the Bible, certain texts are clearer than other texts, 53 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,080 but that's partly going to depend on who's reading it, 54 00:03:20,159 --> 00:03:22,719 and what their education level is, what their background is, 55 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:25,759 what they do, and don't know how familiar they are 56 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,840 with the rest of the book. So saying, even admitting 57 00:03:28,879 --> 00:03:32,319 that certain areas of the Bible might be clearer than 58 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,879 other areas still doesn't itself tell us to each individual 59 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,159 which area will be clearer. In other words, something that 60 00:03:39,199 --> 00:03:44,120 an educated person thinks is pretty obvious might not be 61 00:03:44,199 --> 00:03:47,919 obvious to an an educated person. Maybe they're reading about 62 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,479 you know, through the eye of a needle or something 63 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:57,639 like that, right, and you don't know this rhetorical idiom 64 00:03:57,719 --> 00:04:01,919 or whatever. You don't know this hyperbole. Okay, Well, if 65 00:04:01,919 --> 00:04:07,159 you're an uneducated person, that might be totally ambiguous to you. 66 00:04:08,479 --> 00:04:11,400 An educated person might think, well, this is obviously hyperbole. 67 00:04:11,639 --> 00:04:13,520 So you see that even when we say, or even 68 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:18,279 if we admit that there are quote clearer passages, it 69 00:04:18,319 --> 00:04:22,959 doesn't itself tell us which passages are themselves universally clear 70 00:04:23,079 --> 00:04:25,839 or unclear. So a lot of times Protestants and we 71 00:04:25,879 --> 00:04:28,800 notice the same thing with Muslims. It's exact move that 72 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:33,000 Jake did. Have a very naive epistemology and a naive 73 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:37,160 linguistic theory or semiotic view that the text just mean 74 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:38,920 what they say, and they say what they mean, and 75 00:04:39,439 --> 00:04:43,839 that typically goes along with word concept fallacy. People who 76 00:04:43,879 --> 00:04:47,519 have that one dimensional view of language and texts typically 77 00:04:47,519 --> 00:04:49,920 fall into the mistake, as I'm sure we're going to 78 00:04:49,959 --> 00:04:56,000 see with Redeemed Zuomer, of thinking that the word that's 79 00:04:56,079 --> 00:04:59,000 used always has the same meaning in the same context 80 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:02,519 and the same reference. So, for example, logos as it's 81 00:05:02,639 --> 00:05:05,480 used by the this is a common Roman Catholic word 82 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:10,560 concept fallacy. Well, Marcus Aurelius says logos. John One says logos. 83 00:05:10,639 --> 00:05:12,759 So they mean and refer to the exact same thing. 84 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,720 Maybe they do, maybe they don't. Just because the word 85 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:22,680 is used. We need to know the intentional context, and 86 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:27,680 the lexical context, and the entire books context, and perhaps 87 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:31,399 even the entire religion's context. So you see that individual 88 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:36,439 words are situated within broader context, the sentence, the paragraph, 89 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,319 the chapter, the book, the book as a whole is 90 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:42,639 in the case of the Bible, because it's books within books, 91 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:46,959 and then the tradition as a whole. Perhaps, So, for example, 92 00:05:47,079 --> 00:05:53,480 I can't take a word that is exterior to the 93 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:58,319 Orthodox tradition or to the Biblical tradition, find that word 94 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:02,920 in say greekfulilosophy or Platonism, and then interpret that word 95 00:06:02,959 --> 00:06:05,839 within the Christian context as having a one to one 96 00:06:06,199 --> 00:06:09,839 meaning with the Greek term. This happens a lot, for 97 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,639 example with news. Well, the Greek philosophers use the word 98 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,240 news when you Orthodox use it, that must mean the 99 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:19,680 same thing. So it's just purely the intellect or some 100 00:06:20,199 --> 00:06:23,560 higher faculty of the intellect. According to say Greek philosophers, 101 00:06:23,879 --> 00:06:27,519 it's not what it means an Orthodox. It corresponds to 102 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:29,920 the Hebrew idea of the heart, which is not the intellect. 103 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,199 So you see that with whether it's news or whether 104 00:06:33,199 --> 00:06:35,920 it's logos. These are just examples, but the same type 105 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:41,319 of mistake can happen when we're looking at even English 106 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:47,759 texts or English words like person, Does person mean just 107 00:06:47,879 --> 00:06:53,160 an individual? Nature? Does it mean something distinct from nature? 108 00:06:54,639 --> 00:06:58,000 How we understand person and nature, for example, will have 109 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,079 tremendous implications on our view of the Trinity, in our 110 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:05,360 view of Christology. So a big part of this mistake, 111 00:07:05,399 --> 00:07:09,920 and a big part of this really rookie sophomore understanding, 112 00:07:10,759 --> 00:07:14,199 and a lot of Internet people engage in very common 113 00:07:14,199 --> 00:07:18,959 amongst Protestants and Muslims, somewhat common amongst Roman Catholics as well, 114 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:22,240 but maybe less Roman Catholics. The Roman Catholics tend to be, 115 00:07:22,519 --> 00:07:25,040 if they're into these topics, a little more educated than 116 00:07:25,079 --> 00:07:29,279 the average Muslim or the average Protestant, so they can 117 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:33,759 sometimes avoid some of this issue. But as Saint Basil says, 118 00:07:34,079 --> 00:07:38,199 pretty much every heretic is making some kind of linguistic mistake, 119 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:42,360 usually right, and he's speaking in that case of eunomious 120 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:47,959 and the Eunomian heresy kind of giving the idea of 121 00:07:48,199 --> 00:07:53,279 ingeneracy or unngenerate in generate basically identifying that with the 122 00:07:53,319 --> 00:07:57,519 divine essence, and so therefore anything that's not in generate 123 00:07:57,759 --> 00:08:02,399 or ungenerated is therefore not God or less than God. 124 00:08:02,439 --> 00:08:06,319 Hence the son, since he is not ingenerate, and he 125 00:08:06,439 --> 00:08:10,199 is generate or has an origin, or he is not unoriginate, 126 00:08:10,959 --> 00:08:13,439 then he must not be God. That's the Eunomian premise, 127 00:08:13,519 --> 00:08:17,800 or that's the version of the Eunomian argument. And so 128 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:22,360 Basil argues against this as the arrest of capitations. Do 129 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:27,759 that not every word is referring to or picking out 130 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,160 the same thing, right, Think about how many times we've 131 00:08:30,199 --> 00:08:33,000 made this argument with the phrase like doctor Branson does 132 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:37,080 God g Od? Because God can pick out different things, 133 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:39,960 And many many Muslims since the Jake debate have already 134 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,440 been saying, oh, you lost the debate when you said 135 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,879 you believed in little g three little g gods, and 136 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:48,960 the argument there is just missing the whole point that 137 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:53,200 this is a linguistic distinction between what God can pick out, 138 00:08:53,279 --> 00:08:58,320 as in distinct persons, divine nature, and so the one 139 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:02,000 True God, the one God. Capital typically is picking out 140 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,360 the person of the Father, at least in the Patristic period. 141 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:09,519 That's always what it is, and that's why the nicing 142 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,480 Creed is a monarchical trinitarian doctrine that says, I believe 143 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,759 in one God, the Father. All the Capitalians speak this way. 144 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:23,399 So little g God then refers to God from God. 145 00:09:24,039 --> 00:09:26,679 Did you notice the nicing Creed says God from God, 146 00:09:26,799 --> 00:09:35,519 light from light. Okay. So that's a distinction within unity. 147 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,200 That's the way that we account for distinction within unity. 148 00:09:38,279 --> 00:09:42,440 Of course, Muslims, for example, whatever their position, whether they're 149 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:51,360 a Shari or Salafi, or whether they're whatever Athari, the 150 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:56,559 different Muslim positions Neil, Platonist, Shia, they're all going to 151 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,840 have different ways and attempts of accounting for unity and 152 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,039 distinction in God. So that's why I typically frame the 153 00:10:03,039 --> 00:10:05,480 debate what the Muslims has. It's not a debate between 154 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,399 multiple who's got the unity position and who's the polytheist. 155 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,200 It's two different positions. Give me an account for unity 156 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,399 and multiplicity. And that's why the counting issue is so 157 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:21,159 important there because both Muslims and Christians, when they're accounting 158 00:10:21,159 --> 00:10:23,279 for unity and distinction in God, are going to count 159 00:10:23,279 --> 00:10:28,120 by division and by identity. And if you didn't notice, 160 00:10:28,279 --> 00:10:32,679 when the Creed, for example, says undivided God is undivided, 161 00:10:33,519 --> 00:10:39,279 that's counting by division. When al Gazali in his Tenth 162 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:43,080 Proposition and the Moderation of Belief book talks about being 163 00:10:43,159 --> 00:10:47,159 God being undivided, he's counting by division. Aristotle and category 164 00:10:47,279 --> 00:10:49,919 six metaphysics, I think it's around book ten and metaphysics 165 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:58,279 counting by division. Now, I didn't say any ancient medieval 166 00:10:58,279 --> 00:11:00,679 world they only counted by the division. That was a 167 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:04,879 mistake that Jake assumed that because I said they counted 168 00:11:04,879 --> 00:11:07,480 by division, I said they only counted by division. No, 169 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,279 I said first order, second order, and position, two different 170 00:11:11,279 --> 00:11:14,919 types of things even in the medieval philosophers that were 171 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:20,799 counted in different ways. So it would have actually behooved 172 00:11:20,919 --> 00:11:25,240 Jake to be familiar with some of the responses to 173 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,919 the argument that we only count by identity, because he 174 00:11:29,039 --> 00:11:31,159 just assumed that I was saying, no, we only count 175 00:11:31,159 --> 00:11:33,279 by division, which I didn't say. I said we count 176 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,039 in both ways. And then he set up a false 177 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,240 either or which he didn't realize would trap his own 178 00:11:39,279 --> 00:11:44,799 position that if he's going to count the attributes by identity, 179 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:50,960 then he's got multiple necessary attributes, which is a makes 180 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:54,000 his position policyist. So there you go. 181 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,399 Speaker 2: A thousand years ago, Christianity split in half when the 182 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,320 Patriarch of the East got kicked out of the church 183 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:00,799 by the Pope. Now, a lot of this political, but 184 00:12:00,799 --> 00:12:03,039 it was also theological, meaning it has to do with 185 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,120 what we think about God. Even though Catholics and Protestants 186 00:12:06,159 --> 00:12:08,480 disagree on a lot, they have the exact same view 187 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,440 of God. The Eastern view is slightly different. There's really 188 00:12:11,519 --> 00:12:14,240 six main issues they disagree on, which can be abbreviated 189 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:15,879 with the acronym Frost. 190 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 1: Frost and all. Well, this is an interesting, unique approach 191 00:12:23,759 --> 00:12:26,320 to this question. Let's see what is What do we 192 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:36,759 disagree on? Philioquate reason, maybe original sin, probably simplicity, Yeah, 193 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:41,320 theasis sacrifice, Well, the Roman Catholic and the Protestant view 194 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:42,960 of sacrifice are not the same. So I don't know 195 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:44,919 where he's gonna I don't know if he thinks he's 196 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,600 gonna find commonality with Roman Catholics on quote sacrifice. 197 00:12:49,039 --> 00:12:51,399 Speaker 2: All these issues are connected to each other. For each 198 00:12:51,399 --> 00:12:53,720 of these issues, there's a Western view and an Eastern view, 199 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:55,919 and the Western view of all these issues is the 200 00:12:55,919 --> 00:12:57,399 biblical one, the biggest. 201 00:12:57,639 --> 00:13:00,559 Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, good one good argument there, Just at that 202 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,600 the quote West is right on all of these issues 203 00:13:03,639 --> 00:13:06,039 and the East is wrong. I'm sure he's going to 204 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:13,600 give some kind of argument, but I'm not sure that you. 205 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,039 I'm not sure that actually this is I mean Roman 206 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,679 Catholics on the Philly oquay. I mean, they have a 207 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:22,480 lot more of a nuanced position. But this is kind 208 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:27,799 of assuming that Reformed and Protestants themselves have a unified position. 209 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,320 Where does he get the idea that quote Protestantism is 210 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:35,679 a unified position on any of these issues at all. 211 00:13:36,519 --> 00:13:40,399 There's no Protestant unity. Maybe you could say there's unity 212 00:13:40,399 --> 00:13:44,519 on like a couple super generic positions, like we follow 213 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:49,279 the Bible over tradition. Okay, maybe that's one of the 214 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:55,919 quote unifying things of Protestants. Roman Catholics and Protestants don't 215 00:13:55,919 --> 00:13:59,480 have the same view of sacrifice. I don't know what 216 00:13:59,519 --> 00:14:02,759 he thinks the Western view of Theosis's that's different from 217 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,840 I mean, do protests don't even teach Theosis? So I 218 00:14:07,879 --> 00:14:10,600 mean this is again I'm predicting this is going to 219 00:14:10,639 --> 00:14:12,080 all be a bunch of word concept. 220 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 2: Felt disagreement is the villioque. As we said in the 221 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:16,799 first video, all Christians believe in the Trinity, which is 222 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,159 that the three persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit 223 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:21,600 are all God, which means they all have everything that 224 00:14:21,639 --> 00:14:22,399 makes God God. 225 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: So he doesn't even know what monarchical trinitarianism is. He 226 00:14:25,159 --> 00:14:28,639 doesn't even know that that's the view that's established at 227 00:14:28,679 --> 00:14:34,080 the Second Ecumenical Council, which is the official Church's Trinity Council. 228 00:14:34,159 --> 00:14:35,320 So he didn't even know that. 229 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 2: But if they all have the same. 230 00:14:37,159 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: I think I brought all this up in our debate 231 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:39,120 by look. 232 00:14:38,879 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 2: In properties, then what makes them different from each other? 233 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: The free person, Hey, Jamie, could you make me a coffee? 234 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:47,360 Could you put a little Manuka honey in it? Thank you? 235 00:14:47,399 --> 00:14:48,519 I got a cup in here. 236 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 2: Those are only different from each other in their relations 237 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:51,559 to each other. 238 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:53,879 Speaker 1: So what are these yeah? And so if they're only 239 00:14:53,879 --> 00:14:56,559 different by relation, then the thing that makes them distinct 240 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,639 isn't anything unique. And so this is one of the 241 00:14:59,679 --> 00:15:04,600 crit that Lasky has of Western trinitarianism so called, which 242 00:15:04,679 --> 00:15:09,679 is that person reduces to a relation. But Eastern theology 243 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,559 is premised on the idea that persona is persona at 244 00:15:13,559 --> 00:15:18,000 relatio is false. Person cannot be identified with a relation, 245 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,279 person is subject or agent. And and I brought this 246 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,120 up in our debate, and he was completely lost, by 247 00:15:24,159 --> 00:15:26,639 the way, so none of what I said apparently stuck 248 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:29,679 sunk in from our debate. And he's just sort of 249 00:15:29,679 --> 00:15:31,559 look at and what does all this? It looks like 250 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:36,840 a freaking football team's you know, is he like Rudy 251 00:15:36,879 --> 00:15:42,000 over here? He's drawing the plays of the West, you know, 252 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:47,840 Like I don't know, I mean, I hate football movies, 253 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:49,919 but the Rudy is the only one I can even 254 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,519 think of that I've ever watched. Right, So he's over 255 00:15:53,519 --> 00:15:57,600 here like Rudy, trying to trying to rally his team, drawing, 256 00:15:57,759 --> 00:16:00,440 drawing the Trinity and the philioquis someone of confused ass 257 00:16:01,279 --> 00:16:04,559 gibberish football play relations. 258 00:16:04,639 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 2: According to the West, the Son is eternally generated from 259 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,120 the Father, and the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the 260 00:16:10,159 --> 00:16:13,000 Father and the Son or philioque in Latin. 261 00:16:13,559 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: Notice we haven't had any so far as just saying positions, 262 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:17,639 no arguments yet. 263 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 2: But according to the East, the Holy Spirit only proceeds 264 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:22,679 from the Father and not the Son. The first question 265 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:24,759 should be what does the Bible say. The Bible very 266 00:16:24,759 --> 00:16:26,679 clearly says the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of the 267 00:16:26,679 --> 00:16:28,320 Father is also the spirit of the. 268 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: Son or so level one mistakes. He doesn't understand the 269 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:38,000 difference between economia and theology proper, or the intratrinitarian life 270 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,879 versus the economia. So doesn't even know that, not even 271 00:16:41,879 --> 00:16:44,759 a level one understanding of what the Phillioquay issue is. 272 00:16:44,759 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 2: The spirit of Christ. Many many times it says the 273 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,519 Holy Spirit is from the Son or of the Son. 274 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, nobody in the Orthodox Church disagrees with that. That 275 00:16:52,159 --> 00:16:53,639 was never even part of the debate. 276 00:16:53,799 --> 00:16:54,679 Speaker 2: That should settle it. 277 00:16:54,919 --> 00:16:57,679 Speaker 1: But still the East, I mean literally doesn't even know 278 00:16:57,720 --> 00:16:58,399 the issue it. 279 00:16:58,519 --> 00:17:00,759 Speaker 2: This is the West of adding the Opate to the 280 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:02,600 Nicene Creed when it wasn't there before. 281 00:17:02,799 --> 00:17:06,039 Speaker 1: And we don't accuse the West of doing it. The 282 00:17:06,079 --> 00:17:08,759 West admits to doing it, and pote Leo the third 283 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:11,880 forbade it from being added. So that's again, it doesn't 284 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:12,759 even know basic history. 285 00:17:12,799 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 2: This is technically true, but it kind of doesn't matter 286 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:16,720 because neither of them use the original version of the 287 00:17:16,759 --> 00:17:17,400 Nicene Creed. 288 00:17:17,559 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, but the argument isn't that we only follow the 289 00:17:20,759 --> 00:17:24,319 creed as it's produced at Nicea. The argument is that 290 00:17:24,799 --> 00:17:30,000 Constantinapolitan creed, the Niceno concept of Politan creed is forbidden 291 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:34,119 at Ephesus from being added to. So the clause that 292 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,400 you and then Chalcedon, right, So Ephysis and Chalcedon are 293 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:39,400 the ones that say that you can't alter the creed. 294 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,920 It's not nicea one that says the creed can't be changed. 295 00:17:43,039 --> 00:17:45,319 So this is misunderstanding. This is an old, a stupid 296 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,359 old argument to Bara made that he didn't even realize 297 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:52,400 that it's not Nicea that forbids the change the changes 298 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:54,799 forbidden after it's already been. 299 00:17:54,759 --> 00:17:57,599 Speaker 2: Changed, which didn't have the paragraph about the Holy Spirit. 300 00:17:57,759 --> 00:18:00,759 Speaker 1: All of this is like level literally level one oh 301 00:18:00,759 --> 00:18:01,519 one mistakes. 302 00:18:02,319 --> 00:18:04,519 Speaker 2: So both of them use an updated version. It's just 303 00:18:04,519 --> 00:18:07,240 that the Western version is slightly more updated. And just 304 00:18:07,279 --> 00:18:09,960 because the original Creed didn't have the philioquay doesn't mean 305 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,000 people didn't believe in the philioquay back then. 306 00:18:12,519 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 1: Actually it does. Because number one, he doesn't even understand 307 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,200 what the issue is. It's about the hypostatic properties, and 308 00:18:18,279 --> 00:18:22,480 whether the father is the sole cause hence monarchical trinitarianism 309 00:18:22,559 --> 00:18:26,200 as taught by the Cappadocians, and whether or not the 310 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,599 hypesech property of the father can be shared, given to, 311 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:32,480 or in any way participated in by the son. 312 00:18:32,559 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 2: That's the issue, especially because so many of the most 313 00:18:34,759 --> 00:18:37,160 important people that we talked about in the previous videos 314 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,680 did believe in it. Some of the greatest defenders of 315 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,680 true teaching, like Saint Athanasius sant. 316 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:46,279 Speaker 1: Anthonasia doesn't believe in the Philioquay. This is easily debunked 317 00:18:46,319 --> 00:18:51,119 in Sishchensky's book. Really the only there's one quote in 318 00:18:51,839 --> 00:18:56,559 Ambrose that could be read as Philioquay and then Saint Augustine. 319 00:18:56,839 --> 00:18:59,640 So for the West, that's it. We did a whole 320 00:19:00,039 --> 00:19:02,799 live stream with doctor Branson who did his dissertation on 321 00:19:02,839 --> 00:19:07,720 the cab of Doceans and uh, there's one phrase in 322 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:13,599 Nissa's against Eunomius that's used as a proof text. But 323 00:19:13,839 --> 00:19:17,920 as doctor Branson points out, that one phrase in against 324 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,240 Eunomius goes against the rest of the thrust of the text, 325 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,400 and because it's an ambiguous passage, it makes more sense 326 00:19:24,799 --> 00:19:28,839 to interpret the one phrase in Nissa's text in harmony 327 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:30,920 with the rest of the texts that are a lot clearer, 328 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,599 where he specifies that there's only one sole cause, and 329 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,880 that is the hypostasis of the Father. It's not the 330 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,200 divine nature. So you can refer back to the three 331 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,039 hour livestream that we did going through the entire Skshensky 332 00:19:44,039 --> 00:19:46,680 book on the Philly oquay, which is the most up 333 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,680 to date academic text on it from a person who 334 00:19:49,759 --> 00:19:52,480 was rom Macalo that became Orthodox, And you can also 335 00:19:52,559 --> 00:19:54,759 go watch the recent Doctor Branson stream that we did 336 00:19:54,799 --> 00:19:57,480 where we dove deep into these topics as well, leaving 337 00:19:57,559 --> 00:20:01,440 essentially no argumentation for the Philly equali other than Augustine. 338 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:01,720 That's it. 339 00:20:01,839 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 2: The spirit is from the son. 340 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,279 Speaker 1: Oh wait, we don't go by one guy, So for 341 00:20:06,519 --> 00:20:10,519 perfectly a Protestant mindset that, oh, where do I get 342 00:20:10,559 --> 00:20:13,920 my canon? I'll pick Jerome one guy. Where do I 343 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:19,160 get my trinity doctrine? All Augustine? One guy? Yeah, it's 344 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:26,119 the Constantinopolitan council, the second echemical council that trumps any 345 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,319 single dude way. 346 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 2: The son is from the Father or Saint Cyril of Alexandria, 347 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:33,039 explicitly saying the Holy Spirit. 348 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, if you read the rest of Cyril, and if 349 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,440 you read the treatment that Sashinsky says, this is not 350 00:20:37,559 --> 00:20:41,759 what he's talking about. The procession is what he's talking about. 351 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,559 Just because the word proceeds is used, that just means 352 00:20:44,599 --> 00:20:48,599 come forth, So it's not always in the English translation 353 00:20:48,759 --> 00:20:54,200 identical to hypostatic origin. So we agree that the manifestation 354 00:20:54,319 --> 00:20:57,319 of the spirit and the energies is through the son, right, 355 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:00,839 and that's taught by gregor Cyprus. That's at the the 356 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:05,000 later Palomize synods. You could read Crisis and Byzantium by 357 00:21:05,039 --> 00:21:08,799 Papadoccus on that. But just because you see the word proceeds, 358 00:21:08,839 --> 00:21:10,240 you notice that he did the same thing with the 359 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:14,039 biblical texts right, comes from the Sun, Yeah, but in 360 00:21:14,079 --> 00:21:16,440 what sense comes from the sun in terms of manifestation, 361 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:21,960 proceeding forth through manifestation or a proceeding forth as hypostetic origin. 362 00:21:22,079 --> 00:21:23,440 You see, those are two different things. 363 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,400 Speaker 2: Ads from the Father and the son. Or Pope Leo 364 00:21:26,519 --> 00:21:28,759 also saying the spirit proceeds from the Father, and he's 365 00:21:28,799 --> 00:21:29,680 saying the Holy Spirit. 366 00:21:30,039 --> 00:21:31,839 Speaker 1: By the way, if you notice that text right there, 367 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,039 the Holy Spirit when he is in us right comes 368 00:21:35,079 --> 00:21:38,960 from father and son. That's economium. So even the text 369 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,079 that he's got right, there is an economic relation and 370 00:21:42,079 --> 00:21:44,119 not a eternal hyposthetic origin. 371 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,759 Speaker 2: Relation proceeds from the father and the son, or Pope 372 00:21:46,839 --> 00:21:49,079 Leo also saying the spirit proceeds from the father and 373 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:49,400 the son. 374 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is also dealt with in the Sashensky books. 375 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:54,799 So this is why it doesn't work to do quote 376 00:21:54,839 --> 00:21:58,079 minds to prove this kind of stuff. It's basically just 377 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:00,599 ignoring all of the scholarship that ex lanes to you 378 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:06,440 the difference between hyposthetic origin and manifestation, which is necessary 379 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:08,960 to have a coherent doctrine eternity. By the way, Romancolics 380 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,039 typically don't even know this or understand this unless they 381 00:22:12,079 --> 00:22:18,240 happen to be kind of brainiac uniates. Really, brainiac uniates 382 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:20,440 are the only ones that are even kind of aware 383 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,319 of this. But it's actually brought up by the way 384 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,079 in the Vatican clarificational. 385 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 2: Opilioqui both sides recognize these people as the heroes of 386 00:22:32,039 --> 00:22:34,480 the early Church. Now the East response to this by 387 00:22:34,519 --> 00:22:36,440 saying the Bible and the Church fathers are only talking 388 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,920 about energetic procession, not hypostatic procession. 389 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 1: No, actually, you already confused economia with intratrinitarian life and origin, 390 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,079 so we don't just say that it's that. 391 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 2: So you misunderstood that partly because they think there's a 392 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,079 difference between God's essence and God's energies. But that creates 393 00:22:58,079 --> 00:22:58,640 a whole. 394 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, that actually comes from the Bible. Right, So Paul 395 00:23:01,519 --> 00:23:03,640 makes this distinction when he talks about the energies of 396 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:05,920 the spirit. Right, we have this when we talk when 397 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,039 we read about the seven spirits of God. Okay, do 398 00:23:09,079 --> 00:23:11,440 you think God's knowledge, God's wisdom, et cetera. Are they 399 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:15,079 creatures or are they really distinct things. I'm pretty sure 400 00:23:15,079 --> 00:23:18,559 foreign knowledge is different from the divine essence. I'm pretty 401 00:23:18,559 --> 00:23:21,039 sure the act of creating is different from the act 402 00:23:21,079 --> 00:23:21,880 of destroying the world. 403 00:23:22,079 --> 00:23:24,759 Speaker 2: New set of problems that we're going to talk about later. Also, 404 00:23:24,799 --> 00:23:26,440 in the Eastern view, you can't really tell what the 405 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,640 difference between the son and the spirit is because they're 406 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:29,599 both just from the Father. 407 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe you should read the Cappadocians who actually address that. 408 00:23:33,039 --> 00:23:36,759 Youuno me an argument directly because you know meus Again, 409 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:42,079 he was talking about reducing hypostidic properties to essence, and 410 00:23:42,279 --> 00:23:45,720 Basil's response is that that there is a distinction between 411 00:23:46,559 --> 00:23:49,599 procession and generation. We know what the distinction is, we 412 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:51,759 do not know. That's a Cappadocian quote. Those are the 413 00:23:51,759 --> 00:23:53,799 guys who gave us the doction of the Trinity at 414 00:23:53,799 --> 00:23:56,000 the Second Acimunical Council. So this guy's no knowledge of 415 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:56,279 any of this. 416 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,160 Speaker 2: We'll say the difference is because the sun is from them, 417 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:00,160 not even aware of the basics, other by be getting 418 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,359 in the spirit by procession. And if you ask what 419 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,400 the difference between those two things are, they'll say, we 420 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,119 know there is a difference, but it's a mystery. 421 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 1: That's Basil's quote. There is the guy who's like the 422 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,640 daddy of the Trinity, next s Athanasius and the other 423 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,640 Capitotion's so he doesn't even know he's like. What he's 424 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,200 arguing against is what Basil says of mystery. 425 00:24:18,319 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 2: Another thing they disagree on is reason the Bible calls 426 00:24:21,599 --> 00:24:24,599 Christ the Logos or the Wisdom of God. Both sides 427 00:24:24,599 --> 00:24:27,440 agree on that. Both sides also agree that all Christians 428 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,119 have the Holy Spirit, but because the West believes the 429 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:34,200 Holy Spirit proceeds from Christ, therefore proceeds from the wisdom 430 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,640 of God. That implies that Christians have access to the 431 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,319 wisdom of God and therefore can gain knowledge of God. 432 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,359 This is why Western Christianity is more intellect. 433 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: Cat that makes no sense. So he thinks that because 434 00:24:49,559 --> 00:24:54,119 Christ is the logos, that this somehow translates to the 435 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,119 huge He doesn't even know what faculties are like. He 436 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,480 doesn't know that reason can be spoken of as a 437 00:25:00,519 --> 00:25:03,039 faculty that we possess as part of our human nature, 438 00:25:03,799 --> 00:25:08,920 and that the divine mind possesses reason as well, the 439 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:13,400 church fathers argue, so he's equivocating on reason as if 440 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:21,799 this is somehow necessary and connected to phillyoque literally no idea. 441 00:25:21,839 --> 00:25:24,119 What this is a ridiculous Sorry, I've never heard. This 442 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,440 makes no sense. It's just equivocating on terms. 443 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,279 Speaker 2: That implies that Christians have access to the wisdom of 444 00:25:30,279 --> 00:25:33,079 God and therefore can gain knowledge of God. This is 445 00:25:33,079 --> 00:25:36,519 why Western Christianity is more intellectual and Eastern Christianity is 446 00:25:36,519 --> 00:25:37,039 more But. 447 00:25:37,039 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: It's not though, And if you read Singeria Palomas, the 448 00:25:40,039 --> 00:25:42,880 point of intellect and concepts is fine as far as 449 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,160 it goes. But God is not in your intellect and 450 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:49,519 God is not your concept. God is beyond all intellect 451 00:25:49,559 --> 00:25:52,960 and concepts, and so the direct experience of God transcends 452 00:25:53,519 --> 00:25:55,880 the creaturely things. That doesn't mean the creaturely things are bad. 453 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,160 It just means that they're limited. In the West you 454 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:03,119 get this idealization and idolatry of intellect and ideas because 455 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:07,200 they actually identify the soul with the intellect. So again, 456 00:26:07,319 --> 00:26:09,079 I don't even think I don't think he really understands 457 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,400 what he doesn't know the difference between reasoning as a faculty, 458 00:26:12,519 --> 00:26:15,079 reasoning as an action or a function, and what it 459 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,519 even means to call reason a property or a faculty of. 460 00:26:18,559 --> 00:26:21,599 Speaker 2: Nature mystical because they have different views of reason. This 461 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,519 is not an insult. Prominent Orthodox priests will agree with 462 00:26:24,559 --> 00:26:26,720 this right after the fact. 463 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:28,880 Speaker 1: That reasoning can lead us away from God does not 464 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,240 mean that reasoning is bad or that we're anti intellectual. 465 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:36,119 So this is another straw man, as if because Father 466 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,680 Josiah Trendum is talking about rationalism that he doesn't does 467 00:26:39,799 --> 00:26:42,400 redeem him or not know the difference between reason as 468 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:46,599 a faculty or a function and rationalism as an intellectual 469 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,640 movement of the Enlightenment. No, he doesn't even know that. 470 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:53,039 Speaker 2: The split the West started doing scholasticism, which is where 471 00:26:53,079 --> 00:26:56,319 they study theology academically and try to learn the mysteries 472 00:26:56,319 --> 00:26:59,160 about God. Saint Anselm was one of the most important 473 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,200 Western saints after the split, and he started medieval scholasticism. 474 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:05,079 He said that theology. 475 00:27:04,599 --> 00:27:08,279 Speaker 1: He's not actually started by Anselm, it's actually Augustine and Boethius. 476 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,480 But the problem is not So there's another word, concept fallacy, 477 00:27:12,559 --> 00:27:17,559 Like the problem is not being scholastic. The problem is scholasticism, 478 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,519 which is built on a bunch of faulty presuppositions. So 479 00:27:20,599 --> 00:27:23,000 another word concept fallacy. That he doesn't know the difference. 480 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,279 He doesn't know the difference between reason and rationalism. He 481 00:27:26,319 --> 00:27:30,599 doesn't know the difference between being scholastic and scholasticism, because 482 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,960 if he were to read the medieval Byzantine theologians, they 483 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,279 were super scholastic. 484 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,160 Speaker 2: His faith seeking understanding, and he started to find out 485 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,880 new ways to prove that God exists. The medieval scholastics 486 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,359 spent centuries trying to figure out everything, like how do 487 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,720 we define what God is? Anselm says, God is the thing. 488 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,720 You can't think of anything greater than Thomas Aquina says, 489 00:27:53,759 --> 00:27:57,039 God is pure being. Dun Scotis says God is the 490 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,599 infinite and these ideas don't necessarily contradict each other, and 491 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,160 Reform theology was greatly. 492 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,559 Speaker 1: I don't understand why he's apt to point out people 493 00:28:06,559 --> 00:28:08,799 that he thinks are actually heretics. I mean, these are 494 00:28:08,799 --> 00:28:12,400 people that number one reject him un totally think he's heretical. 495 00:28:12,799 --> 00:28:16,240 He thinks these people are heretical. But leave it to 496 00:28:16,279 --> 00:28:19,359 the Reform to be inconsistent and roll these people out 497 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,680 when they think they're useful for optics reasons. 498 00:28:22,839 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 2: Influenced by these theologians, All these people thought the philioque 499 00:28:26,559 --> 00:28:28,440 is necessary for understanding God. 500 00:28:28,519 --> 00:28:31,519 Speaker 1: So what we also don't think that those people are 501 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,240 saints in our church. So what would this have to 502 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:41,319 do with disproving the Orthodox position unless you're just trying 503 00:28:41,359 --> 00:28:44,319 to score points on the ideas that there's a generic 504 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,160 Western theology of God that's correct. Do you think that 505 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:53,599 John Calvin's theology is anywhere close to Thomas Aquinas? Do 506 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,400 you think that Anselm's theology is anywhere close to I 507 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:02,559 don't know, Zwingli. I mean, give me a break, right, 508 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,000 So this is all optics and like ignoring the big 509 00:29:06,039 --> 00:29:10,119 issues that these people killed each other. They're not in agreement. Literally, 510 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:15,599 Protestants killed themselves amongst other Protestants over baptism. Roman Catholics 511 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:20,799 killed Protestants obviously, So this idea that there's a generic 512 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:25,640 commonality between them that he could somehow utilize against Orthodoxiology 513 00:29:25,799 --> 00:29:27,440 is just like super low dear. 514 00:29:28,119 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 2: And studying God led to studying God's creation by doing science. 515 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,519 That's why it was the Western Church that created modern science, 516 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:37,960 modern universities, classical. 517 00:29:37,519 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: Music, and actually universities come out of Byzantium. Okay, it's 518 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,000 not a creation of the West, so ignorant of Byzantium 519 00:29:47,319 --> 00:29:50,200 modern science, I don't mean modern scientism. I mean that 520 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,920 seems like a double edged sword there, so I'm not sure. 521 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,480 But to attribute this to I mean, is this admitting 522 00:29:57,519 --> 00:30:00,680 then that Roman Catholicism is the real So I mean, 523 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,880 if he's gonna argue that Western that all this Western 524 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,640 stuff comes out of the Middle Ages, then this is 525 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,440 actually undercutting his dumb reform position. So uh oh, it 526 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,680 looks like modern science universities come out of Rome and 527 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,160 not the Protestant world. So that's actually an own against himself. 528 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,000 And by the way, university has come out of Byzantium, 529 00:30:20,079 --> 00:30:22,440 not whatever he thinks to come out. 530 00:30:22,279 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 2: Of Western civilization itself the most successful civilization to ever exist. 531 00:30:26,759 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: Well, how do you measure success? Right? I mean, is 532 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,759 the success of Western civilization quote unquote measured by bodily comforts? 533 00:30:33,799 --> 00:30:37,680 Is it measured by nuclear weapons? Is it measured by 534 00:30:38,599 --> 00:30:41,480 how apostate and atheist it is? Now, so you see 535 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,319 how arbitrary and ridiculous this kind of argumentation is. 536 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,559 Speaker 2: Western theology is whether they like Augustin, who was one 537 00:30:47,599 --> 00:30:50,799 of the most important Church fathers, and it shouldn't surprise 538 00:30:50,839 --> 00:30:53,200 you that he very strongly believed in the philiop way. 539 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: He also Yeah, but nobody, not even you as a Protestant, 540 00:30:58,039 --> 00:31:02,599 follows one dude, right, I mean, nobody consistently follows one dude. Now, 541 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,400 the Romancalolic Church supposedly follows one dude aka Francis, but 542 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,400 they don't consistently do that. As we'll see here in 543 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,400 a second. You don't follow one dude. So when you 544 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,279 try to find evidence for your positions in the Church fathers, 545 00:31:15,319 --> 00:31:18,759 it's completely arbitrary. Oh, I want the canon that Jerome has. 546 00:31:19,039 --> 00:31:23,440 Oh I want the theology of Jesus that Athanasius has 547 00:31:23,839 --> 00:31:25,799 and then you think the rest of his beliefs are heretical. 548 00:31:25,839 --> 00:31:30,839 By the way, no Roman Catholic person wouldever accept your 549 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,519 belief that Augustine is a Protestant. Have you read Augustine. 550 00:31:34,519 --> 00:31:36,599 I don't just mean your quote minds. I mean I've 551 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,759 read thousands of pages of Augustine. He was a Catholic bishop. Now, 552 00:31:40,799 --> 00:31:44,279 for us, we think that individual theologians can make mistakes. 553 00:31:45,039 --> 00:31:50,480 Gregor Nissa made mistakes, Saint Maximus made mistakes, Augustine made mistakes. 554 00:31:51,119 --> 00:31:54,559 Tertullian made mistakes. Some mistakes can be so severe that 555 00:31:54,599 --> 00:31:57,200 eventually the church determines that you're outside the church. Like 556 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,279 in the case of Turtullian, he left the church. Right, 557 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:02,960 You could argue that Justin Marty made a mistake in 558 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,519 the way he phrased things here and there. Sure, but 559 00:32:05,559 --> 00:32:08,039 he could also be read in an Orthodox way. Now 560 00:32:08,039 --> 00:32:12,039 I want tomind everybody too that IP is inspiring. Philosophy 561 00:32:12,079 --> 00:32:16,000 is doing a stream. Later, addressing one of Jake's claims 562 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:22,440 about Tertolian being not a Trinitarian, Sam Schmun also addressed this, 563 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,640 it's a dumb argument. It's actually missing the whole point. 564 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:27,799 But anyway, let's get back. 565 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,559 Speaker 2: To this believed in original sin, which says that because 566 00:32:30,599 --> 00:32:32,599 of the fall, all of us are dead in sin 567 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,839 from the moment of conception. Now our default state is 568 00:32:35,839 --> 00:32:36,960 guilty before God. 569 00:32:37,279 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: That mean, now, I guess redeem Zoomer is not even 570 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,079 aware of the Roman Catholic position, is not the Augustinian position? 571 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:48,920 Does he not know this? And you could go read 572 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,799 the for example, well you'd read the Catholic Catechism where 573 00:32:52,799 --> 00:32:57,000 it makes a distinction between original guilt and actual guilt. 574 00:32:57,279 --> 00:33:00,720 Roman Catholics no longer affirm original guilt. Infants are not 575 00:33:00,839 --> 00:33:05,559 guilty because of adam sin. So that's actually something that 576 00:33:05,599 --> 00:33:09,359 we agree with in terms of Rome in the Orthodox. Now, 577 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,000 at the time of Augustine, up until Gregory the Great, 578 00:33:12,119 --> 00:33:15,160 the West did believe that infants were guilty and that 579 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,759 all men were guilty in Adam as in an archetype. 580 00:33:17,759 --> 00:33:22,039 And that's the argumentation that Augustin uses in the City 581 00:33:22,039 --> 00:33:25,279 of God, for example, in one place where he makes 582 00:33:25,319 --> 00:33:27,920 this argument. And so he has a neoplatonic idea that 583 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,880 everyone is guilty because we're all in potentia in Adam 584 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,880 as in an archetype, and so we are all already 585 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:38,880 guilty because we exist in potentia in him. Eventually, when 586 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,960 the Romancolic Church defines and explains the doctrine of infant limbo, 587 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,079 this is precisely to get around the fact that infants 588 00:33:46,079 --> 00:33:52,440 are not guilty of Adam's sin itself. So actually Rome 589 00:33:52,519 --> 00:33:56,400 eventually softens their position and moves away from original guilt. 590 00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,799 Now you could argue that Romancalolay Church is inconsistent with 591 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,000 which I do argue that in my essay against Taylor 592 00:34:03,039 --> 00:34:07,000 Marshall on this position. But the modern day Roman Catholic 593 00:34:07,119 --> 00:34:11,199 Church does not agree with the reformed Calvinist position that 594 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,880 infants are automatically damned merely by being children about him. 595 00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:19,079 So the only people today that still hold to the 596 00:34:19,119 --> 00:34:25,239 Augustinian position are Calvinists. So if he wants to claim Augustine, 597 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,000 he could claim him just in that specific area and 598 00:34:29,079 --> 00:34:35,000 maybe on absolute predestination. But he doesn't even know that 599 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,039 the Roman Catholic position is not his position on inherited guilt. 600 00:34:38,119 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 2: It's from the moment we were conceived, we deserve to 601 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,280 go to hell. It's not a pretty truth, but it's 602 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:44,559 what the Bible teaches. 603 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: It doesn't teach that that's your misinterpretation and Meandorff has 604 00:34:49,199 --> 00:34:52,519 a good essay pointing out where because Augustine didn't know 605 00:34:52,599 --> 00:34:54,440 the Greek, he misunderstood Romans five. 606 00:34:54,679 --> 00:34:57,280 Speaker 2: It's very important to recognize how serious sin. 607 00:34:57,519 --> 00:34:59,079 Speaker 1: By the way, if you want to go deeper into that, 608 00:34:59,119 --> 00:35:02,480 I have an entire three hour discussion from Augustine proving 609 00:35:02,519 --> 00:35:03,920 all these points. Okay, so I'm sure a lot of 610 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:10,079 people are gonna be like, ooh, ooh, look, I will 611 00:35:10,119 --> 00:35:15,800 walk you through Augustine's errors and his texts in great 612 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:20,119 detail in this open Q and A that we did 613 00:35:20,199 --> 00:35:24,920 right here. It's called Augustine Calvin Original Sin Orthodox Theology. 614 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,079 So you can go watch this stream. I'll put it 615 00:35:27,079 --> 00:35:30,480 in the chat right here. And this addresses in detail 616 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:36,239 the basic mistakes and fundamental errors that reform Zoomer is 617 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,039 not even aware of in it that he's engaging in. 618 00:35:38,199 --> 00:35:40,760 Speaker 2: And it is so we recognize how much we depend 619 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:41,119 on God. 620 00:35:41,119 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: I'm must get past this part to the next point. 621 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,360 Speaker 2: Well, Eastern Orthodox, he tends to lean a bit more 622 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,519 in the direction of Pelagius, which is why the West has. 623 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: Do not even Palagianism. It's like, so, if he understood 624 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,679 the Roman Calolk position. He would call it Pelagian or 625 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:55,639 semi pelagius. He doesn't even he doesn't even know what 626 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,119 he thinks that. The only position that's not semi palagian 627 00:35:59,199 --> 00:36:02,000 is if you believe in here to guilt the sinner. 628 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,039 Speaker 2: But the East doesn't really believe that. Here's another on 629 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,920 the East and West disagree on God. The West has 630 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,039 a more strict monotheism because it believes that what God 631 00:36:13,199 --> 00:36:16,159 is is one thing. Yes, God is three persons, but 632 00:36:16,199 --> 00:36:20,840 here we're talking about God's essence absolute divine. Simplicity means 633 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,159 God's essence or what God is is the same as 634 00:36:24,199 --> 00:36:27,719 God's attributes or the things about God, and simplicity just 635 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,440 means that God is not made of parts. So God's power, 636 00:36:30,519 --> 00:36:33,199 in God's mind and God's love are not parts of God. 637 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,559 They are the same as God. So when the Bible 638 00:36:35,559 --> 00:36:38,599 says God is love, we take that literally, meaning that 639 00:36:38,639 --> 00:36:41,800 God is the same as infinite love. The Eastern view 640 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,960 is completely different. The East believes that the things about God, 641 00:36:45,119 --> 00:36:48,119 like love and power and justice are just energies that 642 00:36:48,159 --> 00:36:50,280 come from God, and God could. 643 00:36:50,119 --> 00:36:54,199 Speaker 1: Refer to Of course, I'm not going to rehearse that. 644 00:36:54,440 --> 00:37:01,440 We probably respond to this five hundred times. So I've 645 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,559 been making videos about the energies for over ten years. 646 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:12,679 And here is the doctor bo Branson's lectures right here. 647 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,079 If you want to learn what monarchical trinitarianism is from 648 00:37:17,119 --> 00:37:20,119 doctor Branson, who we just had on discussing this not 649 00:37:20,159 --> 00:37:22,880 too long ago. Here's a great link right there for 650 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:31,480 his lectures. So doctor Branson gives you one, two, three, four, five, 651 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:39,000 five lectures on what monarchical trinitarianism is, and then it's 652 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:44,360 the only real consistent way to rebut the Islamic argument 653 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,119 of monotheism, especially when we look at the text where 654 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,280 Jesus is referring to the Father is greater than I. 655 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:52,840 Of course it doesn't mean ontologically greater, it means greater 656 00:37:52,880 --> 00:38:00,440 in role. So there is doctor avail yourself of doctor 657 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,320 Branson's lectures. I highly recommend it. And again he should 658 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,719 have he should have looked at some of this stuff 659 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:08,960 before making this video, because it really just comes out 660 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:14,599 looking like a shoddy, corny like level one attempt to 661 00:38:14,679 --> 00:38:20,239 explain the differences without even understanding really what the other 662 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:25,880 positions are. So there's brand doctor Branson's talks. Uh did 663 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,360 I put my talk on Augustine in there. I can't 664 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,400 remember if I did it here it is if I didn't. 665 00:38:33,119 --> 00:38:36,280 So because we've refuted and because we've answered the energies 666 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,119 stuff probably literally five hundred times, I'm not going to 667 00:38:39,159 --> 00:38:43,599 repeat all of that. Let's see what he says about theosis. 668 00:38:43,639 --> 00:38:47,079 Speaker 2: Of God's energies. And because God's energies are also called 669 00:38:47,119 --> 00:38:50,519 God in some sense, we become God in the end. Now, 670 00:38:50,559 --> 00:38:53,519 the West also believes in theosis. The West also believes 671 00:38:53,519 --> 00:38:56,079 that we receive love and immortality from God when we 672 00:38:56,119 --> 00:38:59,119 have eternal life. The difference is the West knows that 673 00:38:59,159 --> 00:39:01,599 these are gifts that God created for us. 674 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 1: But yeah, so as Paloma says, if we just get 675 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,159 another creature, then we are no different than the Arians. 676 00:39:09,679 --> 00:39:12,440 So here he's admitting that his position of created grace 677 00:39:13,159 --> 00:39:17,119 is where it is created grace, and so therefore the 678 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:20,000 arguments of Athenasius. He claims to really like Athenasianus. But 679 00:39:20,039 --> 00:39:24,079 Athenasius said that if we're getting in salvation just another creature, 680 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,639 then the Arians are correct. So he doesn't even understand 681 00:39:26,639 --> 00:39:29,760 that he should go read a dialogue between Orthodox and 682 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,880 a barling mine to to understand. 683 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,880 Speaker 2: From God whereas the East thinks of salvation. 684 00:39:37,159 --> 00:39:40,159 Speaker 1: Salvation is a gift of God's grace. He thinks that's Augustinianism. Actually, 685 00:39:40,199 --> 00:39:45,159 Augustine teaches a cooperative grace. So even Augustine believes that 686 00:39:45,199 --> 00:39:48,039 the will is still present in the human being, and 687 00:39:48,079 --> 00:39:51,840 the will is still cooperating. Augustin believes in merits. Right, 688 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:56,800 if you read his books, he actually writes about merit. Okay, 689 00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:00,840 he has works on grace and merit, and he doesn't 690 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,639 deny merit. He wouldn't be a Roman Catholic saint if 691 00:40:03,639 --> 00:40:07,159 he completely denied all merit. And he says, well, the 692 00:40:07,159 --> 00:40:10,239 merits are still gifts of God's grace. Okay, Well I 693 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:15,000 can agree with that. My mouse just died. So again 694 00:40:15,039 --> 00:40:17,719 it's word concept fallacies because it depends on what you mean, right, 695 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:19,639 I mean, I can I can believe that my own, 696 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,519 my own human energy and will that I have by nature, 697 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:29,440 that i'd cooperate with grace in is also a gift. Sure, 698 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,679 So again it's a lot of equivocating that he's in God. 699 00:40:33,079 --> 00:40:36,119 Speaker 2: So according to the West, all you have to do 700 00:40:36,199 --> 00:40:39,599 to be saved is accept God's grace, even though different westnes. 701 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,400 Speaker 1: So he just refuted his own position here by the way, 702 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:43,719 he didn't even understand that this would be a created 703 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,239 This would be a crystological heresy too, because if Christ, 704 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,480 in assuming human nature, didn't do anything but make another 705 00:40:51,559 --> 00:40:55,400 created human nature, or that the grace that he gave 706 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:57,559 to his human nature and the incarnation a lah the 707 00:40:57,679 --> 00:41:00,519 Sixth Council, If it's just another creature, then and again 708 00:41:00,559 --> 00:41:03,519 he's back at Arianism. So he doesn't even Understandsians. 709 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:05,800 Speaker 2: Might disagree on how to receive God's grace, but in 710 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,239 the East, there's no way to know if you're united 711 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,480 enough to God have assurance of salvation. We can know 712 00:41:11,519 --> 00:41:12,480 that we are in Christ. 713 00:41:12,559 --> 00:41:16,960 Speaker 1: Okay, so you can pause it that there is theoretically 714 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:21,119 an assurance of salvation like once Saved always said or whatever. 715 00:41:21,599 --> 00:41:23,760 But the funny thing about all that is that none 716 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:27,480 of that actually because even in his position as a Calvinist, right, 717 00:41:27,639 --> 00:41:30,280 if there's self deception and Calvinists believe that you're self 718 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,159 deceiving yourself all the time because the no edic effects 719 00:41:33,159 --> 00:41:35,840 of sin are affecting you at all times, then there's 720 00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,559 no way for him as an individual to know that 721 00:41:38,599 --> 00:41:40,840 he's not being self deceived into thinking that he's want 722 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,039 of the elects. This alone refutes the notion of assurance 723 00:41:44,039 --> 00:41:45,599 of salvation amongst Calvinists. 724 00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:49,480 Speaker 2: But the East prefers to say things, our iniquities, the 725 00:41:49,519 --> 00:41:51,960 punishment that brought us peace was on him. 726 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:56,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is all again word concept fallacy, assuming that 727 00:41:57,039 --> 00:42:03,920 post Enlightenment ideas about not nominalism and legal standing and 728 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:09,599 divorcing ontology from legality and from propositions, which is a 729 00:42:09,679 --> 00:42:14,519 post Enlightenment development, that that's all read back into Isaiah 730 00:42:14,559 --> 00:42:17,079 and ancient text. Now, the ancient world and the medieval 731 00:42:17,119 --> 00:42:23,440 world never separated ontology from nominalism from naming. Okay, So 732 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:25,880 there's no such thing as a purely legal status that 733 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,840 doesn't affect your ontology. But if that, if that goes away, 734 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,239 then all Reformation theology goes away, because that's what p 735 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:33,400 s A is built on. Penal substitution or tone is 736 00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,559 built on the post Enlightenment noomalist idea that you can 737 00:42:36,599 --> 00:42:42,719 divorce metaphysics from uh naming and legal status. So he's 738 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:47,559 just reading in post Enlightenment presubsositions, posts Reformation and presubsitions 739 00:42:47,599 --> 00:42:48,679 back into Isaiah. 740 00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:51,559 Speaker 2: And by his wounds we are healed. We all like 741 00:42:51,639 --> 00:42:56,320 sheep have gone astray. Jesus's sacrifice takes away our legal penalty. 742 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,519 Speaker 1: So again, what does that mean? Okay, it's not a 743 00:42:59,599 --> 00:43:03,519 question of can you find a quote, because this is 744 00:43:03,559 --> 00:43:07,280 the same goofy debate that every reform person, for example, 745 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,840 engages when engaged them when they say, for example, oh, well, 746 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,320 the church fathers talk about the importance of scripture, therefore 747 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:17,280 solo scriptura. Oh Athanasia is talking about sacrifice, so therefore 748 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:22,679 he means the post Enlightenment ideas of nominalism and pure 749 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,000 legal status. No, he doesn't, And if you were to 750 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,119 read Athenasius you would actually know that. By the way, 751 00:43:27,159 --> 00:43:30,840 Protestant scholars already written books on this Eustacia Day by 752 00:43:31,199 --> 00:43:34,480 Alisterroir McGrath points out that nobody prior to Luthor had 753 00:43:34,559 --> 00:43:37,159 Luther's ideal of justification by faith alone. So even your 754 00:43:37,199 --> 00:43:41,400 own Protestant scholars admit this. But he's what twenty one 755 00:43:41,519 --> 00:43:42,800 twenty two, He doesn't even. 756 00:43:42,639 --> 00:43:45,840 Speaker 2: Know the East rejects original guilt. The Reform tradition is 757 00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:47,639 very intellectual, so we're not a bit But. 758 00:43:47,599 --> 00:43:49,800 Speaker 1: I guess what, let's just cut this out right away. 759 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:52,800 We could just really emphasize let's use philosophy to make 760 00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,880 this really simple. If total depravity is true, and if 761 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,480 the noetic effects of sin are affecting you at all times, 762 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,400 and that includes in or rational theological discourse and your 763 00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:07,079 interpretation of scripture, then you're also in every case denying 764 00:44:07,119 --> 00:44:09,800 the possibility of having the certitude that you claim to have. 765 00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:11,719 So every time you're reading the Bible, every time you're 766 00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:14,559 reading the text, reading the Church Fathers, the noetic effects 767 00:44:14,599 --> 00:44:17,519 of sin are distorting what you're doing, and every act 768 00:44:17,519 --> 00:44:19,599 you're actually engaging in some degree of sin on your 769 00:44:19,639 --> 00:44:23,400 own view, right, every act is in some way affected 770 00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:27,119 by noetically in total depravity, the effects of sin. So 771 00:44:27,159 --> 00:44:32,000 that would actually undercut and cancel out the possibility for 772 00:44:32,159 --> 00:44:34,280 him to have the certitude that he has, not just 773 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,920 on his supposed doctrine of assurance of salvation, but also 774 00:44:38,119 --> 00:44:41,119 on every text that he reads. Every time he tries 775 00:44:41,159 --> 00:44:45,360 to go to the Bible, the noedic effects of sin 776 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:49,760 are messing with his interpretation, and so he could never 777 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,079 get to the true meaning of the text itself, which 778 00:44:52,119 --> 00:44:54,239 is what his whole religion is based on. Solar scripture, 779 00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:57,400 that alone is enough to cut out all of this 780 00:44:57,679 --> 00:45:01,360 word concept felacy, goofy position so as we expected. I 781 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,199 had not seen this video before playing it with you guys. 782 00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:07,400 It was actually worse than I expected. Super low tier 783 00:45:08,079 --> 00:45:11,679 multiple word concept fallacies. Lack of familiarity with basic distinctions 784 00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:14,960 between the intratrinitarian life and economyia when it came to 785 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:19,159 Philly Oquay. Lack of basic understanding of the actual debate 786 00:45:19,199 --> 00:45:22,599 of the history of Philioquay. Lack of familiarity with the 787 00:45:22,599 --> 00:45:26,360 basic academic sources on the Philly Oquay A. La Sashensky 788 00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:31,199 and others. Lack of basic understanding of what the disputes 789 00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:36,440 were between Roman Catholics and Protestants, assuming that Augustine is 790 00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:42,800 somehow a useful person for Protestants, which is preposterous, assuming 791 00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,960 that Roman Catholics and Protestants have the same doctrine of 792 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:51,280 original guilt. They don't. So again, multiple fundamental mistakes. And 793 00:45:51,639 --> 00:45:55,519 you know, Redeemed Zuomer got really upset over our debate 794 00:45:55,559 --> 00:45:58,280 for whatever reason, and so it looks like he's just 795 00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:00,440 spiraling and doing damage control.