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Every 24 00:01:26.560 --> 00:01:30.239 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 25 00:01:30.319 --> 00:01:34.519 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 26 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:48.400 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. 27 00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:52.280 The true accrowd of the man who murdered his family 28 00:01:52.359 --> 00:01:55.920 in their New Jersey mansion and eluded a nationwide manhunt 29 00:01:55.959 --> 00:02:00.680 for eighteen years. Until nineteen seventy one, life was good 30 00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:03.760 for mild manner to accountant John List. He was vice 31 00:02:03.799 --> 00:02:06.879 president of a Jersey City bank and had moved his mother, wife, 32 00:02:06.879 --> 00:02:10.080 and three teenage children into a nineteen room home in Westfield, 33 00:02:10.159 --> 00:02:13.800 New Jersey. But all that changed when he lost his job. 34 00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:17.960 Raised by his Lutheran father to believe success meant being 35 00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:22.560 a good provider, List saw himself as another failure. Straining 36 00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:26.520 under financial burdens, the stress of hiding his unemployment, as 37 00:02:26.520 --> 00:02:29.039 well as the fear that the free spirited seventies would 38 00:02:29.039 --> 00:02:32.159 corrupt the souls of his children, List came to a 39 00:02:32.199 --> 00:02:36.159 shattering conclusion. It was my belief that if you kill yourself, 40 00:02:36.360 --> 00:02:39.280 you won't go to heaven, Lis told Connie Chung in 41 00:02:39.319 --> 00:02:42.240 a television interview. So eventually I got to the point 42 00:02:42.280 --> 00:02:44.560 where I felt that I could kill them. Hopefully they 43 00:02:44.560 --> 00:02:46.439 would go to heaven and then maybe I would have 44 00:02:46.479 --> 00:02:49.400 a chance to later confess my sins to God and 45 00:02:49.439 --> 00:02:54.479 get forgiveness. List methodically shot his entire family in their home, 46 00:02:55.039 --> 00:02:58.319 managing to conceal the deaths for weeks with a carefully 47 00:02:58.400 --> 00:03:02.719 orchestrated plan of the set. Then he vanished and started 48 00:03:02.759 --> 00:03:07.120 over as Robert P. Clark, chronicling lists life before and 49 00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:11.240 after the Grizzly murder. Death Sentence exposes the truth about 50 00:03:11.280 --> 00:03:15.240 the accountant turned killer, including his revealing letter to his pastor, 51 00:03:15.599 --> 00:03:18.000 his years as a fugitive with a new name and 52 00:03:18.080 --> 00:03:21.199 a new wife, his eventual arrest, and the details of 53 00:03:21.240 --> 00:03:25.280 his high profile trial. Revised and updated. The book they 54 00:03:25.280 --> 00:03:29.120 were featuring this evening is Death Sentence, The inside story 55 00:03:29.719 --> 00:03:32.319 of the John List Murders, with my special guest journalist 56 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:35.719 and author Joe Sharky. Welcome to the program, and thank 57 00:03:35.759 --> 00:03:39.159 you very much for a Greenness interview. Joe Sharky, Hi, Dan, 58 00:03:39.280 --> 00:03:43.800 my pleasure. Thank you very much. First off, tell us 59 00:03:44.360 --> 00:03:48.240 when this book was originally published and tell our audience 60 00:03:48.400 --> 00:03:50.639 how you came to be in a position to write 61 00:03:50.639 --> 00:03:52.560 this book and want to write this book. 62 00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:59.280 Originally published in nineteen ninety by Signet. I had been 63 00:03:59.439 --> 00:04:02.199 a an editor at the Wall Street Journal, and I 64 00:04:02.280 --> 00:04:05.319 lived in that part of New Jersey, not far from 65 00:04:05.960 --> 00:04:08.439 in the New York City suburbs, not far from Westfield, 66 00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:11.479 and was just fascinated by the fact that this guy 67 00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:15.280 had I was mostly fascinated by how he managed to 68 00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:20.480 disappear into thin air basically after committing this heinous crime. 69 00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:24.680 So I sort of I sort of just threw myself 70 00:04:24.680 --> 00:04:27.120 full time into kind of finding out who in the 71 00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:30.560 world journalist was. And I got to say, I'm sort 72 00:04:30.560 --> 00:04:35.720 of an outlier on the on the consensus about why 73 00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:39.199 he did what he did. He uh the Connie Chung interview, 74 00:04:39.240 --> 00:04:41.319 which by the way, he did from she did from 75 00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:46.199 his prison after he'd been convicted, UH, really allowed him 76 00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:50.480 to spatter off about this, uh, this religious I'm gonna 77 00:04:50.680 --> 00:04:53.680 want to send my family to heaven, which I always 78 00:04:53.680 --> 00:04:56.879 thought was bologna. I think I had this guy's number 79 00:04:56.959 --> 00:04:58.759 in that he was he was. 80 00:04:59.040 --> 00:05:00.240 He was a greedy, he. 81 00:05:01.759 --> 00:05:08.160 Angry guy who the nineteen sixties in the early seventies 82 00:05:08.199 --> 00:05:12.079 sort of threw him into a rage about the way 83 00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:15.160 that his world had changed. And his daughter, who was 84 00:05:15.199 --> 00:05:19.000 sixteen and by all accounts a nice kid, a bright kid, 85 00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:22.399 who had ambitions to be in the theater. Every time 86 00:05:22.519 --> 00:05:24.959 Patty List came in the door, she brought the nineteen 87 00:05:25.319 --> 00:05:28.480 sixties in with him. And I think that really, that 88 00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:32.959 really triggered John List. He decided he'd been fired from 89 00:05:32.959 --> 00:05:35.079 the series of jobs, good jobs. You know, he was 90 00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:39.560 apparently a good accountant, but nobody liked him, and eventually 91 00:05:40.040 --> 00:05:42.519 he wore out his welcome at every job he had, 92 00:05:42.959 --> 00:05:47.199 so in the job in New Jersey, he was fired, 93 00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:51.279 and he tried to act as if the world was 94 00:05:51.319 --> 00:05:53.240 against him, but he also hid the fact that he 95 00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:57.000 was unemployed. He was draining his mother's bank account. His 96 00:05:57.040 --> 00:06:01.959 mother was he was a mama's boy, and you know, 97 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:03.920 and by the end he had drained the bank account, 98 00:06:03.920 --> 00:06:07.759 the house was about to be foreclosed on, and I 99 00:06:07.879 --> 00:06:10.120 just think all these things came together and he decided 100 00:06:10.160 --> 00:06:15.000 to wipe his slate clean. And you know, I guess 101 00:06:15.040 --> 00:06:18.560 his religious I really think the religious beliefs are overstated. 102 00:06:18.920 --> 00:06:24.639 Although he was he was he was an evangelical religious guy. 103 00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:27.279 But I think, you know, it lays a lot on 104 00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:30.079 religion to blame it, but to allow John List to 105 00:06:30.079 --> 00:06:33.800 get away with that, With that that excuse, he left. 106 00:06:34.079 --> 00:06:36.439 He left a note for his pastor at the crime scene. 107 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:41.160 Now weirdly and I was also fascinated by this when. 108 00:06:40.959 --> 00:06:43.000 He left us out his nineteen. 109 00:06:42.680 --> 00:06:47.439 Room sort of dilapidated mansion in Westfield, which, by the way, 110 00:06:47.480 --> 00:06:51.199 is the town that Charles Adams the cartoonist used as 111 00:06:51.240 --> 00:06:56.399 his model for the Adams Family settings, a lovely suburban 112 00:06:56.480 --> 00:07:01.439 town when he got a when he left, he sort 113 00:07:01.480 --> 00:07:07.079 of he had planned these murders, which he executed one 114 00:07:07.120 --> 00:07:09.800 by one as the kids came home from school over 115 00:07:09.839 --> 00:07:13.079 the course of a horrible day. And then he murdered 116 00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:15.240 his mother, and he'd already killed his wife in the morning. 117 00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:18.160 He left the house, he turned on all the lights, 118 00:07:18.199 --> 00:07:20.600 he turned down to thermis that he turned on the 119 00:07:20.720 --> 00:07:25.040 radio high to a classical music station out of New York, 120 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:26.560 and then off he went. 121 00:07:26.639 --> 00:07:27.600 And he disappeared. 122 00:07:29.800 --> 00:07:33.079 Three weeks three and a half weeks went by, and 123 00:07:33.560 --> 00:07:36.519 the teenage girls friends Patty's friends in high school she 124 00:07:36.600 --> 00:07:42.800 was in a drama class, were increasingly frantic over the 125 00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:47.160 fact that she wasn't around, She wasn't going to school. 126 00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:50.040 Liz had left a couple of phone calls saying that 127 00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:53.519 the family was going out of town on a somebody 128 00:07:53.560 --> 00:07:55.279 had died and they were going out of town. But 129 00:07:55.399 --> 00:07:57.600 after three weeks or so, it was clear that something 130 00:07:57.720 --> 00:08:01.000 was wrong in this house, and the kid I think 131 00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:03.560 there were maybe ten of them in the high school 132 00:08:03.639 --> 00:08:08.480 drama class, finally desperate, they knew that something was wrong 133 00:08:08.519 --> 00:08:12.199 at Patty's house, that she was terrified of her father. Desperate, 134 00:08:12.279 --> 00:08:17.439 they broke into the house one night in December of 135 00:08:17.839 --> 00:08:23.079 nineteen of nineteen seventy one, and they found the bodies, 136 00:08:23.720 --> 00:08:28.279 which was a horrible, defining experience for these kids. But 137 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:30.040 that's the weird part about this story. And I think 138 00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:32.639 my book Above Suspicion is the only one that has 139 00:08:32.679 --> 00:08:35.799 this aspect of it, that it was the kids who 140 00:08:35.879 --> 00:08:38.480 found the scene. You know, the bodies were lying in 141 00:08:38.480 --> 00:08:41.159 the ballroom of the house where it list had arranged them. 142 00:08:41.519 --> 00:08:45.679 The mother was dead upstairs in her apartment, her atic apartment, 143 00:08:46.279 --> 00:08:49.279 and the kids didn't know what to do. They knew 144 00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:51.360 that they shouldn't have been in the house, so they 145 00:08:51.399 --> 00:08:56.480 created enough of a ruckus that neighbors called the police, 146 00:08:56.679 --> 00:09:00.480 and that always managed to in the trial, all was 147 00:09:00.519 --> 00:09:03.399 papered over the fact that it was the kids who 148 00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:05.720 found the crime scene, and then the cops, of course 149 00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:11.600 were on Were the cops uh as good responding to 150 00:09:11.600 --> 00:09:13.919 the scene, as some other accounts had made it, I 151 00:09:13.960 --> 00:09:17.120 don't think so. I think the Westfield Police Department at 152 00:09:17.159 --> 00:09:20.799 that time, they came charging into the scene. The crime 153 00:09:20.840 --> 00:09:24.519 scene was disturbed. Too many people were there. There was 154 00:09:24.519 --> 00:09:27.200 the problem with the fact that the kids had found 155 00:09:27.279 --> 00:09:29.159 had found the bodies, The kids were in the house. 156 00:09:29.840 --> 00:09:30.799 It was a bit of a mess. 157 00:09:30.840 --> 00:09:35.320 So, I mean, all that you know was occurring in 158 00:09:35.720 --> 00:09:42.279 Westfield while John List had disappeared, he'd gone west and 159 00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:46.120 he ended up he went to Denver where he just 160 00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:49.519 sort of re emerged as a person. And it interested 161 00:09:49.600 --> 00:09:53.840 me because in that time, I think was probably then 162 00:09:53.919 --> 00:09:55.759 the last time in America that. 163 00:09:55.759 --> 00:09:57.360 You could disappear without trace. 164 00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:01.919 You could you could go go and find a new life, 165 00:10:02.519 --> 00:10:06.159 start over. Not many questions asked if he were clever 166 00:10:06.519 --> 00:10:09.039 and cunning, which he was, and he managed to start 167 00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:12.639 this new life, which also fascinated me enormously so, and 168 00:10:12.759 --> 00:10:14.919 he lived that new life sort of the same way 169 00:10:14.960 --> 00:10:17.519 he lived his old life, although without the baggage of 170 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:22.080 what he thought of the baggage of his family. For 171 00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:25.159 eighteen years, he married some poor woman who didn't know 172 00:10:25.240 --> 00:10:28.840 his background and who sort of was credulous about him, 173 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:31.120 and you know, he got away with it for eighteen years. 174 00:10:31.159 --> 00:10:33.639 He had a pretty good life as far as he 175 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:36.159 defied it for eighteen years until finally the boom got 176 00:10:36.200 --> 00:10:41.080 lowered on him. So that's that's by fascination with John List. 177 00:10:42.639 --> 00:10:46.639 Let's talk about a little bit about John Lyst's upbringing, 178 00:10:46.679 --> 00:10:50.080 because you talk about this, you talk about his religiosity, 179 00:10:50.200 --> 00:10:52.639 and then the excuse that he had to you know, 180 00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:54.360 kill them so that maybe they could go to heaven. 181 00:10:54.480 --> 00:10:57.519 Some didn't sound like much of an excuse. It didn't 182 00:10:57.519 --> 00:11:00.000 make any logical sense for a guy that's very logical. 183 00:11:02.120 --> 00:11:05.759 But the importance, the importance of the Lutheran Church is 184 00:11:05.840 --> 00:11:09.720 very important to this story. From the upbringing that John 185 00:11:09.799 --> 00:11:13.120 List had from his father, which was a devout evangelical 186 00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:15.320 Lutheran member. 187 00:11:15.080 --> 00:11:15.639 Of the church. 188 00:11:17.159 --> 00:11:19.960 You also talk about his odd and this comes up 189 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:24.039 in this book from all kinds of people, the unusual 190 00:11:24.600 --> 00:11:28.200 behavior of John List as a young man. Instead of 191 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:33.440 playing outside, John List had other activities. So tell Us 192 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:35.440 a little bit about the relationship he had with his 193 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:39.360 mother and his father, which were very odd and definitely 194 00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:45.320 contributed to his upbringing, which was strange to the. 195 00:11:45.240 --> 00:11:47.919 Making of John List. I agree the father was a 196 00:11:47.960 --> 00:11:52.279 task minister. Let's not blame the poor Lutherans for this. 197 00:11:52.440 --> 00:11:54.600 But he grew up. 198 00:11:54.600 --> 00:12:02.200 In a Lutheran evangelical environment in the Midwest, uh decidedly 199 00:12:02.919 --> 00:12:08.960 German uh uh oriented Lutheran evangelical sector, and that was very, 200 00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:13.519 very conservative. A household where he was expected to h 201 00:12:14.039 --> 00:12:16.559 to make himself very make himself small. 202 00:12:17.159 --> 00:12:17.360 Uh. 203 00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:22.840 The mother was overprotective. He Uh, he was known as 204 00:12:22.879 --> 00:12:23.159 a kid. 205 00:12:23.159 --> 00:12:23.879 Even to somebody. 206 00:12:24.039 --> 00:12:27.320 He'd be wearing gloves in you know, in in May. 207 00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:30.519 He didn't go outside much. And I don't mean to 208 00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:36.080 imply that that that he was, you know, a total nerd. 209 00:12:36.159 --> 00:12:40.440 I mean he he was drafted into World War Two. 210 00:12:40.559 --> 00:12:44.480 He served at the end of World War two in Germany. 211 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:47.159 I mean he was he had been a you know, 212 00:12:47.200 --> 00:12:49.200 he was a World War two soldier. And when he 213 00:12:49.240 --> 00:12:52.720 got out, Uh, he he met. 214 00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:54.080 The woman who became his wife. 215 00:12:54.799 --> 00:12:57.159 And she was different from him. She was she was 216 00:12:57.399 --> 00:13:00.919 she was a drinker, she was lusty, she she was 217 00:13:00.960 --> 00:13:03.600 by all accounts, somebody you kind of enjoyed being with 218 00:13:03.799 --> 00:13:07.279 a party. He very much, you know, had been. It 219 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:10.960 was in his makeup to just to really be against 220 00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:12.799 that that that kind of openness. 221 00:13:13.399 --> 00:13:13.720 Uh. 222 00:13:13.759 --> 00:13:16.720 But he was a mama's boy. You know, I don't 223 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:19.720 know how to define that except except by John List. 224 00:13:20.200 --> 00:13:21.159 He was weird. 225 00:13:21.639 --> 00:13:24.600 And when he you know, don't forget he eventually ends 226 00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:28.840 up away from the Midwest and in a progressive, small, 227 00:13:29.240 --> 00:13:32.399 medium sized town in New Jersey where he stands out. 228 00:13:32.440 --> 00:13:35.600 I mean he mows his lawn in a suit and tie, 229 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:37.399 and I mean that makes you stand out in a 230 00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:38.679 place like westchil. 231 00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:40.039 You know. 232 00:13:40.919 --> 00:13:43.000 But he was active, he was in the I think 233 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:45.159 he was a he was a cub Scout leader. 234 00:13:45.720 --> 00:13:45.960 Uh. 235 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:48.480 He rubbed a lot of people the wrong way because 236 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:51.600 because of his religiosity in a place where you know, 237 00:13:51.879 --> 00:13:55.279 the town of the you know, a tound of churches. 238 00:13:55.759 --> 00:14:00.039 But but not like uh, overtly devout, if you know 239 00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:00.480 what I mean. 240 00:14:00.919 --> 00:14:03.039 He was. He was in a different culture. 241 00:14:03.080 --> 00:14:06.840 The kids were not. The daughter particularly was was thriving 242 00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:09.360 in this new environment and you know, in the New 243 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:13.200 York suburbs with with a plan. Uh, she really had 244 00:14:13.480 --> 00:14:16.200 an idea that she'd be in the theater. She was 245 00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:23.000 apparently pretty good, uh, in various local plays, and he 246 00:14:23.000 --> 00:14:26.080 he just simmered about that. He thought that was there, 247 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:28.720 there is where his really religiosity came, and he thought 248 00:14:28.919 --> 00:14:32.480 he thought the kid was headed for a decadent lifestyle. 249 00:14:33.200 --> 00:14:36.039 The wife, at this point, it would been, had been 250 00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:37.200 sick for a long time. 251 00:14:37.879 --> 00:14:38.159 Uh. 252 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:42.559 I think when he when he decided to murder everybody, 253 00:14:42.879 --> 00:14:45.399 I think the you know, the the the targets where 254 00:14:45.399 --> 00:14:49.440 the wife and the daughter, the others. And he actually 255 00:14:49.480 --> 00:14:53.639 in prison, he looked up with some uh x c 256 00:14:53.840 --> 00:14:58.320 I agent and he in this x c I age 257 00:14:58.360 --> 00:15:02.399 and his name was Austin god Rich got together well. 258 00:15:02.519 --> 00:15:05.399 Blist was in prison and wrote a book that they 259 00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:11.200 self published called Collateral Damage. And he referred to the 260 00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:14.200 to the kids and the wife and the family as 261 00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:17.000 collateral damage. But I think he was really talking about 262 00:15:17.039 --> 00:15:19.960 the two sons he killed, the two teenage boys and 263 00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:23.679 the mother as collateral damage, because I believe firmly that 264 00:15:23.759 --> 00:15:25.720 he meant that it was the wife and the daughter. 265 00:15:25.799 --> 00:15:29.919 The emerging sexuality of the daughter in particular, I think. 266 00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:32.360 Was one of the triggers. 267 00:15:32.360 --> 00:15:35.679 The journalists he was sexually repressed. He was not the 268 00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:38.840 kind of guy you would want as a neighbor, although 269 00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:41.399 you know you didn't expect him to do what he did. 270 00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:44.960 So that was the journalist as I as I kind 271 00:15:44.960 --> 00:15:48.080 of saw him to this. 272 00:15:48.200 --> 00:15:48.480 Damn. 273 00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:52.840 I mean, it's been what's been thirty years. I'm so 274 00:15:53.000 --> 00:15:54.399 angry when I think of John List. 275 00:15:54.440 --> 00:15:56.159 I mean, the guy just bugs me. 276 00:15:56.480 --> 00:15:59.360 And particularly bugged me that he wrote that he self 277 00:15:59.399 --> 00:16:04.399 published this self serving book, that nobody read it. It was 278 00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:07.840 badly it was badly published, and it's got full of typos. 279 00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:10.159 But you know, he makes. 280 00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:13.039 These excuses, and then he trotted out an excuse of 281 00:16:13.159 --> 00:16:17.639 PTSD from World War Two. And I look carefully when 282 00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:19.759 I want to do the new edition of the book, 283 00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:22.600 I wrote a new epilogue. Particularly in the book, I 284 00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:26.120 look carefully at his military record and his claims to PTSD, 285 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:29.679 and it really doesn't stand up. He was in a 286 00:16:29.799 --> 00:16:34.519 very very very slight combat situation. I just think the 287 00:16:34.600 --> 00:16:37.679 guy was he was just full of bocus excuses for 288 00:16:37.720 --> 00:16:38.200 what he did. 289 00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:42.440 When you when you write about his father, though just 290 00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:44.840 near the beginning of the book, you talk about his 291 00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:48.240 father when he was a young boy, thought that Halloween 292 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:53.279 was a Satanic event, and so that he was ridiculed 293 00:16:53.320 --> 00:16:56.879 and humiliated. I think that's really important, this humiliation in 294 00:16:56.919 --> 00:16:59.799 his story, and that he was humiliated and they called 295 00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:03.279 him trick or treat Johnny So, and then this idea 296 00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:05.880 that he spent time instead of playing with other boys. 297 00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:08.079 He didn't just hang out with his mother. He read 298 00:17:08.119 --> 00:17:10.960 the Bible with his mother, discussed the Bible and read 299 00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:14.599 the Bible, and that continued through his life. So not 300 00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:18.240 to disagree with you about the religiosity being affront it's 301 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:21.200 in how important it was to these murders. But seriously, 302 00:17:21.720 --> 00:17:24.920 his religion was. He took it very very seriously, and 303 00:17:25.480 --> 00:17:28.000 that created all kinds of conflict with his wife and 304 00:17:28.039 --> 00:17:32.880 his daughter and really didn't let him make relationships with 305 00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:39.119 other people because of his staunch beliefs. Let's even go ahead, 306 00:17:39.119 --> 00:17:43.880 I'm sorry, let's talk about his wife though, because aggressively 307 00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:47.680 he realizes that no matter what he does for his wife, 308 00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:50.359 no matter what he tries to provide, and he really 309 00:17:50.359 --> 00:17:54.400 does try to provide anything that she might want, tell 310 00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:57.279 us the situation in terms of her in her mind, 311 00:17:57.799 --> 00:18:00.440 because she was a widowed woman at all, only been 312 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:04.640 widowed six months when she met John List. So, as 313 00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:06.079 you write in the book, what are some of the 314 00:18:06.119 --> 00:18:10.160 things that John found out about his wife and and 315 00:18:10.279 --> 00:18:11.720 about the relationship itself. 316 00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:16.920 Well, you know, again we're into his uh, his his 317 00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:22.000 repressed and kind of angry sexuality. The wife had been married, 318 00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:28.400 uh to a guy, uh an their do well guy 319 00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:34.039 who was a soldier in Uh I think Korea. I 320 00:18:34.039 --> 00:18:38.880 forget yeah, Korea, I think, and uh was killed UH. 321 00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:42.759 And one of the one of the themes that's that's 322 00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:49.759 very uneasy in this story is that she evidently uh 323 00:18:50.799 --> 00:18:57.599 got syphilis from from the first husband. And syphilis, you know, 324 00:18:58.519 --> 00:19:02.039 is something that after the first stage, you can live with, 325 00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:06.400 and then in the final tertiary stage, it creates uh 326 00:19:06.759 --> 00:19:11.240 something very close to uh sinility, and you know, the 327 00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:16.960 symptoms are Helen List was suffering from from advanced syphilis, 328 00:19:17.079 --> 00:19:19.720 which doesn't show up again until you until you're you know, 329 00:19:20.119 --> 00:19:22.680 in your late middle ages, which which happened to her. 330 00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:29.000 That that obviously was part of what was driving this 331 00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:33.480 guy kind of to the brink. Uh. He was the 332 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:37.759 daughter was was assuming the role of of mother, and 333 00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:41.440 the house she was cooking meals. He I think, you know, 334 00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:44.119 to his if I give him any credit for anything 335 00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:46.880 he did. As you say, he did try to provide 336 00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:50.079 for the wife. She got more and more cranky and angry. 337 00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:51.720 She was difficult. 338 00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:55.359 I mean, she deserving murdered because you know, she was 339 00:19:55.359 --> 00:19:58.480 a difficult woman and he was. I mean, I think 340 00:19:58.599 --> 00:20:04.240 understandably she that was a bit difficult with him. But 341 00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:07.559 you're right, he did. Journalists thought that he deserved to 342 00:20:07.599 --> 00:20:10.640 be in the upper middle class, affluent and you know, 343 00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:14.559 the sort of the suburban stereotype of the nineteen fifties 344 00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:17.279 and into the sixties. And he, you know, he did 345 00:20:17.319 --> 00:20:22.279 everything he could with his limited abilities and his limited social. 346 00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:24.680 Ability. 347 00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:27.039 He did every good everything he could do. This he's 348 00:20:27.079 --> 00:20:30.480 always in debt, he was always owing money, and you know, 349 00:20:30.519 --> 00:20:33.440 and that all sort of just came to a climax 350 00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:36.000 in the you know, by nineteen seventy. 351 00:20:35.720 --> 00:20:42.240 He was he was just a sad case people in Westfield. 352 00:20:42.279 --> 00:20:43.920 I mean, you want to go back to the father. 353 00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:47.920 There's a key of that, because the father was weird, 354 00:20:48.240 --> 00:20:51.319 you know, was a religious crank. I mean, this is 355 00:20:51.319 --> 00:20:54.359 what you might say, and don't forget in this enclave 356 00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:58.799 in the Midwest, and when you transplant that son to 357 00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:03.519 a pretty rested place like Westfield, New Jersey. You know, genuinely, 358 00:21:04.039 --> 00:21:05.880 it's the kind of town I mean, it's the time. 359 00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:08.359 You see it all the time on TV commercials because 360 00:21:08.359 --> 00:21:12.039 they shoot TV commercials in Westfield, as the exemplar of 361 00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:15.400 a small town America is right across the river from 362 00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:20.839 New York. Even among the you know, the Evangelical Lutherans 363 00:21:20.839 --> 00:21:23.720 in town, he stood out as kind of a crank. 364 00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:25.039 They were, you know, they were. 365 00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:27.559 The pastor was very it was close to him, but 366 00:21:27.880 --> 00:21:29.759 a lot of people in the congregation are like, wow, 367 00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:31.039 this guy is really weird. 368 00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:33.200 You know, he was. 369 00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:38.759 He was considered rigid and judgmental. And you know, back 370 00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:41.880 to the father. The father had been like nuts about 371 00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:47.640 Halloween some recent Halloween. The father saw Halloweens as demonic, 372 00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:51.559 which is you know, kind of amusing in twentieth century America. 373 00:21:53.079 --> 00:22:00.000 And in nineteen seventy one, the daughter had a Halloween 374 00:22:00.200 --> 00:22:02.880 party in the basement of their house. And part of 375 00:22:02.920 --> 00:22:06.480 the trigger I think was, you know, kids came, you know, 376 00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:10.599 kids came dressed as hippies and as devils and as witches, 377 00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:15.079 and you know, this sort of in the background, in 378 00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:18.799 the in the darkness that watched this party and sort 379 00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:20.839 of took that in. I don't think it was you know, 380 00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:23.960 I don't think it was the precipitating event, but it 381 00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:27.079 was part of it. He saw the daughter as becoming 382 00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:34.039 is reflecting a kind of satanic influence in society. So 383 00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:37.079 that was part of John list, But I don't think 384 00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:38.599 that that was the driving part. 385 00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:39.720 I just think he was greedy. 386 00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:44.039 Lucky Land casino, asking people, what's the weirdest place you've 387 00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:45.480 gotten lucky? Lucky? 388 00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:48.000 In line at the deli, I guess ah, in my 389 00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:49.920 dentist's office more than once. 390 00:22:49.960 --> 00:22:51.559 Actually, do I have to say? 391 00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:51.960 Yes? 392 00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:52.200 You do? 393 00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:54.960 In the car before my kid's PTA meeting? 394 00:22:55.160 --> 00:22:55.519 Really? 395 00:22:55.640 --> 00:22:58.599 Yes? Excuse me? What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky? 396 00:22:58.799 --> 00:22:59.920 I never went in? 397 00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:01.359 Tell well, there you have it. 398 00:23:01.400 --> 00:23:04.200 You could get lucky anywhere playing at Lucky landslaughts dot 399 00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:05.880 com play for free right now? 400 00:23:06.039 --> 00:23:07.000 Are you feeling lucky? 401 00:23:07.079 --> 00:23:07.119