Speaker 1: You are listening to a Funds Media Network production. Welcome
Speaker 1: world The Blaze. Listeners to episode sixty two. On today's show,
Speaker 1: I feature my very special guest, Brian Townsend. He's a
Speaker 1: twenty eight year law enforcement veteran and a retired Supervisory
Speaker 1: Special Agent and former Resident Agent in Charge for the
Speaker 1: US Drug Enforcement Administration, also known as the DEEA. Currently,
Speaker 1: Brian is the founder and principal of Legal six Training,
Speaker 1: where he provides consulting services and training to businesses and
Speaker 1: law enforcement entities worldwide. He also launched Only two Milligrams, Inc.
Speaker 1: A five oh one c nonprofit organization where he leverages
Speaker 1: his extensive experience and knowledge in the opioid field to
Speaker 1: raise awareness and foster a deeper understanding of the opioid
Speaker 1: epidemic and an illicit fentanyl crisis. We have a very
Speaker 1: eye opening and informative conversation, so let's keep going. Thank
Speaker 1: you for being flexible. I'm sorry to be fairly on
Speaker 1: time here. You caught my attention as I was looking
Speaker 1: and I was searching literally doing a show on the border,
Speaker 1: and one of the things I kept coming up, obviously
Speaker 1: and they keep talking about, is the fentanyl crisis. And
Speaker 1: all the drugs coming across the border. And then I
Speaker 1: came across your name and then saw that you were
Speaker 1: a DAA agent and I'm sure experience goes way beyond that,
Speaker 1: but involved in law enforcement, so I thought i'd reach
Speaker 1: out to you. And then I also saw that you
Speaker 1: train other law enforcement agencies still to this day.
Speaker 2: Is that correct? That's correct?
Speaker 1: So I wanted I wanted to talk to you because
Speaker 1: you are an expert on this and the problem I'm
Speaker 1: having that that we're seeing these days with social media
Speaker 1: is everybody has an opinion on something but doesn't have
Speaker 1: all the facts. And so that's the whole reason I
Speaker 1: wanted to talk to just like can we get some
Speaker 1: real inside information on what's really happening, what the realities
Speaker 1: are fact from fiction? And then also want to talk
Speaker 1: about like what you're doing now after you left the
Speaker 1: DEA and how you're still involved in all of this.
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, perfect. So I was with the DEA for
Speaker 2: twenty three years. Prior to that, I was a police
Speaker 2: officer for five years, so twenty eight years in law
Speaker 2: enforcement in an active capacity, you know, wearing the badge
Speaker 2: and gun. But I still work with law enforcement post
Speaker 2: DEA in a training capacity.
Speaker 1: What's your involvement with training in law enforcement?
Speaker 2: Though?
Speaker 1: Like, what are you doing as force training?
Speaker 2: So I wear a couple of hats. I went to work. Well, Actually,
Speaker 2: when I retired from DEA in twenty twenty two, I
Speaker 2: started my own training and consulting business, Eagle six Training.
Speaker 2: And I don't just train law enforcement, but that's something
Speaker 2: that's the world I navigated in for the last thirty years,
Speaker 2: so I have a lot of contacts and it just
Speaker 2: was a natural fit and I'm doing quite a bit
Speaker 2: with law enforcement in that capacity. And then that led
Speaker 2: me to a risk center. Uh there's six ris centers
Speaker 2: across the United States, and there's one in Missouri that
Speaker 2: serves the Midwest and it's the Midwest Organized Crime Information Center,
Speaker 2: and they hired me as a law enforcement training coordinator.
Speaker 2: Started part time and now now I'm full time and
Speaker 2: I train law enforcement in the nine states that we serve.
Speaker 2: So I do Egle six training in the forty one
Speaker 2: states and MCIC and the nine States. And then I
Speaker 2: started a nonprofit organization of five oh one c three
Speaker 2: IRS recognized nonprofit to address specifically the fentanyl crisis, and
Speaker 2: we're actually expanding into more threats and trends and what
Speaker 2: we can address to make our community safer. And right
Speaker 2: now that focus has been illicit ventanyl.
Speaker 1: What what are you offering through your nonprofit in terms
Speaker 1: of training and awareness when it comes to feneral.
Speaker 2: So we have we have three classes that My flagship
Speaker 2: class is a four hour comprehensive class. It's it's it's
Speaker 2: under It's the Illicit Fentanyl Crisis Understanding, Awareness and Action.
Speaker 2: It's a four hour class and it's it really is
Speaker 2: the kitchen sink. I mean, we talk about you know
Speaker 2: what fentanyl is, you know the fact that only two
Speaker 2: milligrams is enough to kill you if it gets in
Speaker 2: your system, The cartels, the border, social media, the dark web.
Speaker 2: I mean, we really really talk about everything. That presentation
Speaker 2: changes a lot. I keep up to date on a
Speaker 2: lot of the research I get. I have access to
Speaker 2: a lot of the bulletins. Still, I'm still involved with
Speaker 2: a lot of folks at THEA and so I'm quite
Speaker 2: up to date on what's going on in the illicit
Speaker 2: fentanyl world. And so I'm always changing that presentation and
Speaker 2: making sure all the statistics and informations up to date.
Speaker 2: And like I said, that's a four hour, very very
Speaker 2: comprehensive program. I've done ninety five or ninety six now
Speaker 2: across the United States. I have a shorter presentation that
Speaker 2: I call a lunche and learn. I've had a lot
Speaker 2: of executives and senior business leaders that are interested in
Speaker 2: learning more about Listit ventanyl, but they've told me they
Speaker 2: don't have four hours to spare, so they give me
Speaker 2: an hour and they kind of get the overview. That's
Speaker 2: gone really well. And then I have a program I
Speaker 2: called Chattering Dreams, which is for students, and I've done
Speaker 2: it for younger students, but my primary audience so far
Speaker 2: has been high school and college students, and that's really
Speaker 2: just giving them information and making them aware of the
Speaker 2: fentanyl crisis and the changing drug landscape.
Speaker 1: So two milligrams is enough to kill.
Speaker 2: Yeah, two milligrams, So a couple of granules assault or saan.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, it's so potent in that dangerous that but
Speaker 1: there's got to be a max a huge amount of
Speaker 1: profit behind it, because for the cartels, for example, to
Speaker 1: take such a risk of using something that you can
Speaker 1: literally just come in contact with it if it absorbs
Speaker 1: in your skin, right and gets into your bloodstream. Is
Speaker 1: it that dangerous? Can it be that dangerous?
Speaker 2: No? And that that is I'm glad you brought that up.
Speaker 2: So in twenty sixteen, DEA put out a officer safety
Speaker 2: bulletin and then that went to the public as well.
Speaker 2: Is that you know that there was a risk of
Speaker 2: phtonol exposure, that it could absorb in your skin, that
Speaker 2: you know, just being around it could could make you overdose.
Speaker 2: And we now know that's that's that's not factual. We
Speaker 2: know that's that's incorrect, and it's a very dangerous drug
Speaker 2: and we should respect that. But just being around, merely
Speaker 2: being around it, you know, won't won't put anybody in jeopardy. Again,
Speaker 2: respect the drug use, use whatever ppe makes you feel confident.
Speaker 2: You know, I always wear naitral gloves and that's what
Speaker 2: I recommend, and that's what I wore when I was
Speaker 2: around it, and here I am. It has to get
Speaker 2: into your bloodstream. It has to get through a mucous membrane.
Speaker 2: You know, you're snorting it, you're injecting it, you're swallowing
Speaker 2: a pill. It's got to get into your body somehow.
Speaker 2: Just merely being around it or even touching it. It's
Speaker 2: not going not going to cause any harm.
Speaker 1: Is it always a case where finnyls being used to
Speaker 1: as something that's mixed into other drugs? Is it ever
Speaker 1: used just on its own, because I mean two milligrams
Speaker 1: is not a lot. Yeah, how is it being utilized?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So it got into our drug supply via heroin.
Speaker 2: It was when heroin took off. After the legal opioid
Speaker 2: crisis in the nineteen nineties that started with oxyconton, we
Speaker 2: saw an increase in heroin use and the traffickers needed
Speaker 2: to cut heroin, and fentanyl was the perfect cut because
Speaker 2: it is an opioid, so it has the same properties
Speaker 2: as heroin, and it's much cheaper. It's synthetic, and it's
Speaker 2: very potent and it's very addictive. So they started to
Speaker 2: put it into our drug supply via heroin and then
Speaker 2: it just took off and now we see it in cocaine,
Speaker 2: we see it methamphetamine, we see it in all the
Speaker 2: counterfeit pills. Do people use fentanyl alone, Yeah, but typically
Speaker 2: it's through other drugs, you know, the heroin, the cocaine,
Speaker 2: the methinphetamine.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: If you if you find someone who's struggling with substitutes disorders,
Speaker 2: you know, addiction, who is using just fentanyl. That's uh.
Speaker 2: I don't want say it's rare, but uh, I would
Speaker 2: more than likely if you were to follow their path,
Speaker 2: their drug use path, it probably started with another drug
Speaker 2: and then it led to the fentanyl.
Speaker 1: That's actually pretty infortive because I think I think there's
Speaker 1: a lot of misunderstanding on how it was being used
Speaker 1: exactly because uh, you see on the news lately in
Speaker 1: social media, they just talk about fentanyl by itself, and yeah,
Speaker 1: I think some people think it's just they're taking that
Speaker 1: on its own, which would be very dangerous to do.
Speaker 1: So it seems that it's in combination with another drug
Speaker 1: or used to cut another drug.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, that that's how it's most likely taken and
Speaker 2: and in fact, that's how most people are why they're dying,
Speaker 2: is they have no idea that it's fentanyl in the
Speaker 2: uh in the drugs that they're taking. That's why the
Speaker 2: street drugs are so dangerous right now, is is uh
Speaker 2: you know, you think you're getting a pill, you think
Speaker 2: you're getting percoset or oxy here or know or even adderall.
Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be an opioid and then boom,
Speaker 2: you got fentanyl in it, or you think you're using
Speaker 2: cocaine or method fetamine. There are people using fentanyl, like
Speaker 2: I said, but but typically it's it's in combination with
Speaker 2: another drug.
Speaker 1: Understood, So what's what's driving what's driving fentanyl in its
Speaker 1: use in general? Obviously there's a need or demand. Right,
Speaker 1: We're looking at it from a market or capitalist capitalistic perspective,
Speaker 1: So this is obviously making drugs in general more profitable. Right,
Speaker 1: Who are the major suppliers of fentanyl? I mean, we
Speaker 1: always hear China thrown around, We hear you know, other
Speaker 1: countries and other other nefarious actors involved. But from your experience,
Speaker 1: who are the major players involved that really helped to
Speaker 1: supply this for what it's used for.
Speaker 2: So, so the chemicals, the major players and the chemicals
Speaker 2: are are China. India's number two, but China's number one
Speaker 2: and by far number one. So those chemicals are shipped
Speaker 2: from China primary early into Mexico and the drug cartels
Speaker 2: will take shipment usually at the ports, and then from
Speaker 2: there they're trucked into locations in Mexico where where they're
Speaker 2: you know, their chemicals are made into fentanyl. It's the
Speaker 2: same way they did or they just continue to do
Speaker 2: with methamphetamine. The chemicals come from places like China, they
Speaker 2: come into the ports, they get trucked into the different
Speaker 2: labs and the different locations, and then they make the
Speaker 2: methamphetamine and then they smuggle into the US. The two
Speaker 2: primary organizations in Mexico that are behind that are the
Speaker 2: Sinaloa Cartel, the CDs in the Jalisco New Generation, the CJNG.
Speaker 2: Those are the two primary drug cartels transnational criminal organizations
Speaker 2: that are manufacturing and smuggling fentanyl into the United States.
Speaker 1: So it is primarily China and the Mexican cartels or
Speaker 1: those two Mexican cartels that you mentioned.
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, you know, I think about how methanphetamine. You know,
Speaker 2: if if you follow the history of methamphetamine, you remember
Speaker 2: in the in the nineteen nineties and and even in
Speaker 2: the early two thousands, we had a huge meth problem
Speaker 2: in the United States and it's still a big the
Speaker 2: United States. I mean, it's the most c drug in
Speaker 2: the US. But we had a lot of these little
Speaker 2: labs that popped up everywhere, right, and so what do
Speaker 2: we do? We started to regulate the different the chemicals
Speaker 2: like a Federan And to this day, if you need
Speaker 2: like good pseudo fed the strong stuff, you have to
Speaker 2: go to the you know, prescription yeah, or or or
Speaker 2: behind the behind the counter, you have to you have
Speaker 2: to give your driver's licensing and fill that little thing out.
Speaker 2: And what what that did overnight is that it really
Speaker 2: slowed down the small metham fetamine labs in the United States.
Speaker 2: I mean we were getting gosh, we were getting several
Speaker 2: hundred a week to now you might get two a year. Right,
Speaker 2: So at that time the cartel said, hey, wait, this
Speaker 2: is this is a great opportunity. So they went to
Speaker 2: places like China and India. It says, hey, can we
Speaker 2: get these chemicals? Can we get these shipped to us?
Speaker 2: And that's exactly what happened. They started to ship these
Speaker 2: chemicals to them and they would make the meth and
Speaker 2: fetamie and that's where we started the super labs and
Speaker 2: things like that. And give you an idea. I worked
Speaker 2: down on the border from two thousand nine to twenty sixteen,
Speaker 2: and we were paying probably twenty one thousand dollars a
Speaker 2: pound for meth at the time. And they just took
Speaker 2: over and right now, you can buy a pound of
Speaker 2: methamphetamine for about anywhere from eight hundred to fifteen hundred
Speaker 2: dollars for a pound. It's incredible. So now fast forward
Speaker 2: ten twenty years, fentanyl becomes popular. They need, like I
Speaker 2: said earlier, they needed a way to cut heroin to
Speaker 2: you know, because you never sell a raw product. So
Speaker 2: the need for fentanyl grew. And it's such an addictive
Speaker 2: substance and it's very cheap, like said, completely synthetic man made.
Speaker 2: So they when they were making those phone calls to
Speaker 2: the Chinese suppliers and the suppliers in China, they said, hey,
Speaker 2: by the way, we need the chemicals to make fentanyl now,
Speaker 2: and of course those relationships were already established because of
Speaker 2: the meth and fetamine. They're like, yeah, perfect, So yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 2: that's that's the pipeline right there, China to the two
Speaker 2: main cartels in Mexico, and then it's uh, it's transported
Speaker 2: into the US the same way that they've successfully transported
Speaker 2: other drugs into the US for decades.
Speaker 1: So when politics aside, I'm just going to say, when
Speaker 1: so when President Trump says the cartels are a problem
Speaker 1: and this is why, and and people think he's being
Speaker 1: whatever racis, naphone book, however you want to label it.
Speaker 1: He is telling the truth. The cartels are an issue
Speaker 1: when it comes to this. Sorry, am I right?
Speaker 2: Yeah? And absolutely, and both parties have I have said that,
Speaker 2: said that, and I know Trump's a very polarizing figure. Definitely,
Speaker 2: but what he said is is not It's not original
Speaker 2: or it's not unique. This has been a shared feeling
Speaker 2: from from politicians on both sides of the aisle. I
Speaker 2: mean one hundred percent. I mean, now the approaches are
Speaker 2: a little different, but but yeah, these two and that's why,
Speaker 2: you know, for the last gosh, for the last couple
Speaker 2: of years, the strategic focus of DA has been these
Speaker 2: to these two cartels. You know, before I retired.
Speaker 1: What has been the hurdles Because I know you have
Speaker 1: some connections. You can't talk about current investigations, but at
Speaker 1: the same time, from your experience and what what you know,
Speaker 1: what happened in the hurdles and trying to stop this.
Speaker 2: A lot of it has been well, I'm a lot
Speaker 2: more freer to speak now since some some no longer
Speaker 2: with TA. But along with lot's been the corruption and
Speaker 2: the problems in Mexico. Is we have the information. The
Speaker 2: pipeline of information, how it flows into Mexico to the
Speaker 2: law enforcement and to the folks that are supporting us
Speaker 2: is very restrictive now, especially within the last five years,
Speaker 2: very very restrictive. Where we had vetted teams throughout Mexico
Speaker 2: and we still do. There's a lot of you know,
Speaker 2: Mexico's beautiful country, a lot of great people who really
Speaker 2: trying to make it safer and and and and you
Speaker 2: know better, and they want to get rid of this garbage.
Speaker 2: But the problem is that the option and the controls
Speaker 2: they have really make it hard for us to disseminate
Speaker 2: information to the people that can really use it. You know,
Speaker 2: I think earlier this year, or actually earlier twenty twenty four,
Speaker 2: Rutgers and a couple other organizations were looking at numbers
Speaker 2: just to give you an idea of what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2: They wrote, they wrote, you can google this, They wrote
Speaker 2: a couple of things on it. We were giving them
Speaker 2: information on labs, fentanyl labs, and it was like eighty
Speaker 2: some are almost not almost close to ninety percent of
Speaker 2: the labs that we gave them information on when they
Speaker 2: actually went to go get them were inactive I can
Speaker 2: tell you we the US law enforcements not giving bad information.
Speaker 2: You know, sometimes you know, informants or information gets stale.
Speaker 2: I get it, but it just doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 2: I mean, almost ninety percent of the information we're giving
Speaker 2: them is no good. No, we wouldn't be wasting our
Speaker 2: time like that.
Speaker 1: So what does that mean there's someone leaking info? Or
Speaker 1: as you said, just there's the corruption.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's the concern, right, I mean, yeah,
Speaker 2: it really is, because because now when when when information
Speaker 2: goes down and it gets funneled a certain way, there's
Speaker 2: certain offices in Mexico that take that information and they
Speaker 2: decide how it's going to get disseminated. And the problem
Speaker 2: is is we can't trust that process. You know, I'm
Speaker 2: not saying every bit of it's corrupt, but but there
Speaker 2: are people who we know have been compromised. So when
Speaker 2: that information is just thrown down earth is generalized and
Speaker 2: then people get to decide what gets disseminated and where
Speaker 2: it gets disseminated, we lose control of that. And when
Speaker 2: we lose control that, what do we get? We get
Speaker 2: ninety percent inactive labs. That's crazy, right, And that's just
Speaker 2: one example. I mean, there's that that's that's been part
Speaker 2: of the problem. That's and that's why it's going to
Speaker 2: be interesting really to see how Trump deals with Shimbam
Speaker 2: and you know, the tariffs and all the different talk.
Speaker 2: You know what, what leveraged can that possibly give the
Speaker 2: US to be more effective and have them target there.
Speaker 1: Well, what's more, it's more interesting, since you brought that up,
Speaker 1: is the current labeling all these cartels as actual foreign
Speaker 1: terrorist organizations, which now can involve the military, right Department
Speaker 1: of Defense. So that's where it's going to be very interesting,
Speaker 1: is how far they want to go to chase these
Speaker 1: people down and treat them as true terrorists. What's your
Speaker 1: opinion on that.
Speaker 2: I'm actually excited for that, and it really I think
Speaker 2: it just again it leverages. It gives us some leverage
Speaker 2: on our options. I mean, obviously, Mexico's a sovereign nation
Speaker 2: and we have to respect that. And I think that's
Speaker 2: concern is that, you know, we're just going to let
Speaker 2: our military run while out in Mexico and I don't.
Speaker 1: We've got to figure out that partnership in that, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there is absolutely a partnership in that, and I
Speaker 2: think that's what this does. It enhances our ability to
Speaker 2: broaden that partnership and actually get some work done. You know,
Speaker 2: their position seems to be, at least publicly as hey,
Speaker 2: we're going to take care of this problem, and we're
Speaker 2: going to be more aggressive on this. And actually I
Speaker 2: just read in the Intel bullets in this morning they've
Speaker 2: they've certainly ramped up their enforcement efforts in Mexico over
Speaker 2: the last couple of months. And you got to wonder
Speaker 2: if that's because of the the fear of the tariffs
Speaker 2: and and some of the other economic pressure.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 2: I mean, for those of you who don't for those
Speaker 2: people who don't know, I mean Mexico, their number one
Speaker 2: trading partner is the United States. It used to be China,
Speaker 2: it's now the United States. So you got a lot
Speaker 2: of big companies, a lot of people that are calling
Speaker 2: the president and calling their politicians in Mexico saying, hey,
Speaker 2: you need to figure out how to play ball with
Speaker 2: with Trump rand or the US government because this this
Speaker 2: impacts our bottom line and and and that's the reality
Speaker 2: of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it can literally economically crush.
Speaker 2: Them absolutely, and and that's a concern. And I think
Speaker 2: and that's the leverage we have, and and and again,
Speaker 2: not to be political or but because I know again
Speaker 2: I know he's a polarizing figure, but but that's I
Speaker 2: think that's what he's doing. And I don't want to
Speaker 2: speak for him, but that's that's my sense. So that's
Speaker 2: that's that's the advantage some of the things that that
Speaker 2: he's doing.
Speaker 1: I agree with you. I think that's what he was
Speaker 1: using the tariffs for was literally a negotiation tactic. You know.
Speaker 1: I'm sure he's well aware that we do need our
Speaker 1: partners in our allies. I'm looking forward to hopefully seeing
Speaker 1: a real partnership between Mexico and the United States to
Speaker 1: try to stamp this issue out because if anything, it
Speaker 1: would help us align with Mexico and helping our ally
Speaker 1: eliminate the corruption within and that that would be what
Speaker 1: I would hope for, is to see them actually truly
Speaker 1: have the ability to live a life out under the
Speaker 1: thumb of, let's be honest, a terrorist organization.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I know people from Mexico that have family in Mexico
Speaker 1: and that you know, I get a little insights to
Speaker 1: what goes on and how the streets and certain towns
Speaker 1: are controlled, and it's no way for anyone to live really,
Speaker 1: isn't it's a sad state, one.
Speaker 2: Hundred percent agree with you. In such a beautiful country,
Speaker 2: and there's so many people down there who really truly
Speaker 2: do want to, you know, make a positive difference. But
Speaker 2: it's a struggle when you live in a you know,
Speaker 2: look at the number of politicians that are have been attacked,
Speaker 2: you know, look at the number of police officers you've
Speaker 2: lost their lives. I mean, it's it's it's scary, it is,
Speaker 2: it's a sad state of affairs, and it's unfortunate for
Speaker 2: the people there.
Speaker 1: Let's shift to the northern though, because how much, how
Speaker 1: how serious is the trafficking through through the Canadian border.
Speaker 2: Trafficking of fentanyl into the US from Canada isn't, from
Speaker 2: my perspective, a huge problem, certainly, not like it is
Speaker 2: from our southern border. Canada has some issues itself because
Speaker 2: of they've been very progressive in their drug laws, and
Speaker 2: it really is starting to bite them in the butt.
Speaker 2: You look at the super labs and the amount of
Speaker 2: fentanyl seizures in Canada and the problem that they're having
Speaker 2: in Canada, uh is, gosh, it's it's it's getting out
Speaker 2: of hand, just like it is in the United States.
Speaker 2: As far as that those drugs being smuggled into the US,
Speaker 2: I haven't seen any significant numbers, certainly, not like we
Speaker 2: do on the southern border.
Speaker 1: The most of it is staying in Canada.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they they they're I mean Mexico has a problem
Speaker 2: with with fentanyl as well. I mean, I think of
Speaker 2: report just came out like Tijuana is losing like ten
Speaker 2: people a day to over is just Tijuana. I mean
Speaker 2: that's just one little city, right and Canada is having
Speaker 2: a tenfold that problem. They're they're really really struggled.
Speaker 1: I know they went through a crazy, uh crazy problem
Speaker 1: with methamphetamines too, with meth in general. Once the Hell's
Speaker 1: Angels took hold of that area up there for a
Speaker 1: long time and a couple of other biker gangs were
Speaker 1: dug in and starting to get in, you know, expand
Speaker 1: that market out there. So I know that that happened
Speaker 1: years back. Is a lot of the drugs though, because
Speaker 1: is this true? Is a lot of drugs getting there?
Speaker 1: Like the cartels if they're supplying US, why are they
Speaker 1: not supplying casts or are there are they coming through
Speaker 1: America and smuggling stuff across our border into Canada. Is
Speaker 1: that is that a true statement? Is that's what that's happening.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there there are There are cartel involvement in Canada
Speaker 2: as well. Absolutely, and they also have a problem with
Speaker 2: chemicals coming into Canada. And and like you said, the labs,
Speaker 2: we're seeing more manu the most manufacturing of fetanyl's O
Speaker 2: curring in Mexico. We've certainly seen an increase in Canada.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean they're they're they're having the same
Speaker 2: issues and challenges that we are not at the scale
Speaker 2: yet that that we have. I mean, it's unprecedented in
Speaker 2: the US. Durd demand for drugs is out of hand here,
Speaker 2: but they are certainly are having problems as well. Unfortunately.
Speaker 1: Yeah, sod one of those drug issues really become big,
Speaker 1: was it pretty much like in the mid to late
Speaker 1: eighties with the cocaine craze.
Speaker 2: Well, it really depends on I mean, if you if
Speaker 2: opioid specific was really the nineteen nineties opioids, Yeah, I
Speaker 2: mean we we we had an opioid problem in the
Speaker 2: in the eighteen hundreds in the United States following the
Speaker 2: Civil War, and if if you really dive into our
Speaker 2: history that was the first time we saw widespread addiction.
Speaker 2: I mean, we were using morphine and opium for for
Speaker 2: everything during the Civil War and and and that caused
Speaker 2: widespread addiction. And after the war, those soldiers took that
Speaker 2: back to their you know, their homes, their communities, and
Speaker 2: we never anything like that before, and we continued to
Speaker 2: use it because there wasn't any regulation. There wasn't any
Speaker 2: you know, there wasn't it wasn't anything preventing that that
Speaker 2: widespread abuse, and it just got worse and worse and worse.
Speaker 2: And the early nineteen hundreds we started to we started
Speaker 2: to clamp down on that. In fact, the first federal
Speaker 2: ban of drugs was opium, first time our government ever
Speaker 2: did that. And so from the year and then and
Speaker 2: then because of what happened during the Civil Civil War,
Speaker 2: we really turned away from pain management. I mean, we
Speaker 2: used opioids for pain. But if you had an opioid
Speaker 2: prescription from the early nineteen hundreds to nineteen ninety six,
Speaker 2: we know the date you were probably dying. I'm not
Speaker 2: saying there wasn't some exceptions or people that you know
Speaker 2: that that fooled the system. But if you had an
Speaker 2: oploid prescription, it was. It wasn't subjective. It was probably objective.
Speaker 2: I meaning like the doctor could look at you and
Speaker 2: see that your arm was an eight different direction, that
Speaker 2: you were probably in pain. You couldn't just go in
Speaker 2: there and say my back hurts and walk away with
Speaker 2: a thirty day script of hydrocodone. Again, I know there's
Speaker 2: some exceptions, but for the most part, that's how we
Speaker 2: treated pain management. And there was this big, big push
Speaker 2: in the United States to change that. And we now
Speaker 2: know that that was the pharmaceutical industry was behind that,
Speaker 2: and Purdue was the big, the big one, and they
Speaker 2: weren't alone, but they were the big one, and there
Speaker 2: was million dollars, millions and millions of dollars into this
Speaker 2: campaign change the way that we that we treated pain.
Speaker 2: And they would tell doctors say, hey, we need to
Speaker 2: you know, we've advanced as a society since the Civil
Speaker 2: War and the research is clear now that this isn't
Speaker 2: as addictive and and they were just beating this drum
Speaker 2: for ten twenty years and it worked. In nineteen ninety six,
Speaker 2: we added pain as a fifth vital sign, and at
Speaker 2: the same time they said, oh, when we have the
Speaker 2: pill for you, oxyconton. And it's interesting if you read
Speaker 2: some of the Foyer and Sunshine laws and all the
Speaker 2: some of the some of the things that have come
Speaker 2: out now, you know, and only Purdue was talking about
Speaker 2: how this was going to be for terminal cancer patients,
Speaker 2: but they agreed that that that pool of people is
Speaker 2: too small, and then all of a sudden it was
Speaker 2: going to be for everyone, right, And that's exactly what
Speaker 2: they did, is they marketed for everyone, and they did
Speaker 2: it under the guys at less than one percent of
Speaker 2: people will become addicted, and we know that's not true.
Speaker 2: It's the name of prophet, really it was. I mean,
Speaker 2: we went we had a pill that I think it
Speaker 2: took them, you know, three or four years after it
Speaker 2: was released. They were they were spending two or three
Speaker 2: hundred million dollars a year just on marketing. It was incredible.
Speaker 2: And this was a thirty five billion dollar pill. And
Speaker 2: again they weren't alone, but this was a big one.
Speaker 2: And then you look at what that did. I mean,
Speaker 2: we went from think about that, from from the early
Speaker 2: nineteen hundreds to nineteen ninety six, if you had an opioid,
Speaker 2: you were statistically speaking, probably dying, you know, and then
Speaker 2: we went from no, they're safe. So in nineteen ninety
Speaker 2: six on, you had your WISDM teeth taken out, you
Speaker 2: probably went home with thirty sixty ninety pills, no questions asked.
Speaker 2: Your kid hurt their arm throwing baseball in the little
Speaker 2: league game, he probably went home with thirty sixty ninety pills,
Speaker 2: no question to ask. And then they were going after
Speaker 2: the doctors who were who were concerned about this potential
Speaker 2: problem of over prescribing, and they would they would threaten
Speaker 2: their licenses. And then the government started looking at this
Speaker 2: and they started forming the you know, Congress would form
Speaker 2: these committees and they'd have these doctors on there. And
Speaker 2: we now know a lot of these doctors on these
Speaker 2: committees were paid for by and by purdueing the other
Speaker 2: pharmaceutical companies. So to give you an idea, by twenty twelve,
Speaker 2: I think it was eighty one. It was eighty one prescriptions.
Speaker 2: Eighty one or eighty two prescriptions per one hundred people,
Speaker 2: not one hundred thousand, not a million, but per one
Speaker 2: hundred people. So eighty one prescriptions per one hundred people.
Speaker 2: Opioid prescriptions. I mean, we were it was literally we're
Speaker 2: just giving it up for Nyasy.
Speaker 1: Out of every hundred, out of every group of one hundred,
Speaker 1: there was eighty one people on opioids.
Speaker 2: There were eighty one prescriptions. Yeah for eighty one prescriptions, Yeah, prescriptions.
Speaker 2: And to give you an idea, right now, it's come
Speaker 2: down quite a bit. Right now, I think the national
Speaker 2: average is about thirty seven and a half per one
Speaker 2: hundred people. And so one of the things I look at,
Speaker 2: especially when I travel, is I look at the counties,
Speaker 2: and you know what counties are suffering the most, because
Speaker 2: we do see a correlation of high opioid use, legal
Speaker 2: opioid use to people turning to the illegal market. And
Speaker 2: that's exactly what happened in the nineteen nineties when we
Speaker 2: when we were giving opioids out like it was candy,
Speaker 2: and we saw more and more opioids out there. You
Speaker 2: know a lot of doctors are like, WHOA, this is crazy.
Speaker 2: We've been We've been liied to, We've been we've been
Speaker 2: fooled by by purduing these other country companies. We can't
Speaker 2: just give this stuff out. We gotta a little more
Speaker 2: responsible than this. So they started to wean some of
Speaker 2: their patients or even just go cold Turkey, and a
Speaker 2: lot of these these patients would would uh would just
Speaker 2: go to other doctors. And that's when we saw the
Speaker 2: pill mills pop up. That's when we see the people
Speaker 2: get in their vehicles and they would just drive around
Speaker 2: the whole regions and they would just get many pills
Speaker 2: as they could, and then if they couldn't, they turned
Speaker 2: to the street for for for for heroin. So we
Speaker 2: saw a huge spike and haroin. We hadn't seen that
Speaker 2: type of spike and hair win since since the Vietnam War.
Speaker 2: And then that's how fentanyl came in.
Speaker 1: So can we use there's an assumption, by the way,
Speaker 1: But from whatever all the information you give me, does
Speaker 1: it does it not sound like the cartels are part
Speaker 1: of the problem. But the bigger problem to addiction is
Speaker 1: internally and kind of fueled or started to be or
Speaker 1: was started by the big farmer corporations because they, I mean,
Speaker 1: I would say they they knew they were peddling something addictive.
Speaker 1: They had to. I mean, the more you give someone,
Speaker 1: if they like it, they're gonna they're gonna want more
Speaker 1: of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I agree, and let me let me let
Speaker 2: me say this real quick yeah, I have a problem
Speaker 2: with the pharmaceutical industry. I have a problem with the cartails.
Speaker 2: I have a problem with China. But we do need
Speaker 2: to reduce the demand because at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: it is our demand that that fuels them and that
Speaker 2: and that allows them to be successful and exploit these people.
Speaker 2: But to your question, yeah, absolutely, I mean we we
Speaker 2: had an industry that that became billion.
Speaker 1: Who created the demand though, like we had if we
Speaker 1: had to say where it started, how was that demand created?
Speaker 2: They created the demand. I mean when we went from
Speaker 2: from when we added pain as a fifth final sign
Speaker 2: and they started to give thirty sixty ninety pills, no
Speaker 2: questions asked for just the I mean you ever been
Speaker 2: by a pill mill. I mean we used to work
Speaker 2: those all the time at DA and you know, they'd
Speaker 2: open up at let's say seven in the morning and
Speaker 2: buy five thirty. You'd have a one hundred people waiting
Speaker 2: in line, you know, And I could tell you tons
Speaker 2: of cases investigations we worked. I mean, we had we
Speaker 2: had a bad guy who was putting homeless people on
Speaker 2: buses and he'd take these people to the pill mills.
Speaker 2: They'd go in there and they'd fake you know, my
Speaker 2: back hurts, my knee hurts. Whatever. They'd get these scripts,
Speaker 2: no questions asked, you know, they just pay their twenty
Speaker 2: five thirty dollars copay and then they would they would
Speaker 2: be bused to a pharmacy and they would fill these
Speaker 2: scripts and then they would be paid twenty thirty bucks
Speaker 2: or maybe a bottle liquor or something. And I mean
Speaker 2: this was widespread abuse, and it still happens a little bit,
Speaker 2: but yeah, it absolutely fueled in nineteen nineties. I mean,
Speaker 2: they were out of control. I mean it was it
Speaker 2: wasn't until twenty twelve that we actually twenty thirteen when
Speaker 2: our government actually declared legal opioids a crisis, you know,
Speaker 2: twenty thirteen, and no one even knows that.
Speaker 1: So it sounds like that was the gateway basically, like
Speaker 1: everything that happened and how it was handled by the
Speaker 1: pharmaceutical industry, well, the companies that were involved in pushing
Speaker 1: opioids anyway, That's what it sounds like. That's what got
Speaker 1: people to start seeking and craving other illicit and illegal
Speaker 1: drugs for their own use, because once it was shut off,
Speaker 1: like hey, you know, law, get a prescription for this now,
Speaker 1: you've got to seek another solution to your addiction. Then
Speaker 1: enters you know the increase in legal drug use and distribution?
Speaker 1: Am I connecting the dots there correctly?
Speaker 2: Yes, sir, Absolutely, we saw a substantial increase in heroin use,
Speaker 2: and we know there's been a lot of research. At
Speaker 2: least eighty percent of heroin users started with legal opioid prescriptions.
Speaker 2: Let me repeat that, eighty percent or more of heroin
Speaker 2: users started with a legal opioid prescription.
Speaker 1: I think that's one of the most important things you've
Speaker 1: said so far as far as it relates to the
Speaker 1: drug demand and use in the United States. And I
Speaker 1: llegal drugs. And what's crazy is when you when you
Speaker 1: were given the history on this earlier, the reality is,
Speaker 1: how is it okay? How does our administration think it's
Speaker 1: okay to market and advertise prescription drug drugs on TV
Speaker 1: and radio and other media. The average person has no
Speaker 1: idea what these things do. It's just associating the name
Speaker 1: of their heads. So when they go to the doctor like, oh,
Speaker 1: I heard this might cure this. Can you please give
Speaker 1: this to me? Isn't that ridiculous?
Speaker 2: I agreed. Let me throw another one at you. This
Speaker 2: is an opioid related, but it's the same problem. You've
Speaker 2: heard we have an adderall shortage in the United States.
Speaker 2: I heard something about the kay we don't have a
Speaker 2: short shortage. We can't meet the demand.
Speaker 1: Is that what it is?
Speaker 2: They can't be fast enough. So here you look at
Speaker 2: the pharmaceutical industry and what they did in the nineteen
Speaker 2: nineties and really prior to the nineteen nineties when they
Speaker 2: were orchestrating this event to change the way we dealt
Speaker 2: with pain. They have been telling us for the last
Speaker 2: ten twenty years that our kids need stimulants, you know,
Speaker 2: in this medicine. And if you look at the numbers
Speaker 2: and you start going into high school, middle school, elementary school,
Speaker 2: it's incredible that like you see these slide increases of
Speaker 2: people using these stimulants, kids using these stimulants, and now
Speaker 2: this they've spiked substantially. I mean monitoring the future study
Speaker 2: which is which is a huge study out of University
Speaker 2: of Michigan. I'm doing it probably twenty five thirty years.
Speaker 2: Last year I think was fifteen percent of high school
Speaker 2: seniors now say they're under some medical stimulant from a doctor.
Speaker 2: Fifteen percent. And then when you again when you go
Speaker 2: into middle school, in elementary school, it's increased substantially, and
Speaker 2: it doesn't make sense. I mean, I don't study statistics,
Speaker 2: but I do know that. You know, with statistics, there's
Speaker 2: a there's a there's a an average arrange I figure
Speaker 2: what they call that. And then when you look when
Speaker 2: you see those those spikes, you look at them, why
Speaker 2: are those spike? And then we're seeing.
Speaker 1: That, Yeah, well, you're what you do is you start
Speaker 1: to correlate the data. I mean you're correlating the data.
Speaker 1: And then after that, outside of correlating the data, you
Speaker 1: start to recognize patterns and so that that's that's what
Speaker 1: you're seeing is in these reports. It's like, hold on,
Speaker 1: there's a correlation here. Let me see. Uh, there's more
Speaker 1: adderall or whatever types of drugs being prescribed, more demand
Speaker 1: for this drug that drug, and you're seeing the spikes
Speaker 1: on these reports, like, yeah, there's a correlation there. There's
Speaker 1: something going on. This is absolutely connected. So it's crazy
Speaker 1: that we have this data and yet we don't really
Speaker 1: do anything about it, or on the surface, it doesn't
Speaker 1: look that way anyway.
Speaker 2: No, I agree, And what's interesting is is we're supposed
Speaker 2: to use this data. Like one of the things DEA
Speaker 2: does A lot of people don't know this is they
Speaker 2: have what we call quotas and and working with the FDA,
Speaker 2: DEA regulates the amount of drug drugs. And I've never
Speaker 2: worked in this section, so hopeful I'm not messing up
Speaker 2: the description of this. But basically what they do is
Speaker 2: they monitor and they regulate the amount of the drugs
Speaker 2: that are pharmaceutical company manufacturers. And like I said, we
Speaker 2: can no longer meet the demand of adderall. So people
Speaker 2: were freaking out, like where's our adderalls or adderall? So
Speaker 2: what do they do? They go to their congressmen, and
Speaker 2: they go to their senators, and then they come to
Speaker 2: DA and say, hey, you need to increase your quotas.
Speaker 2: And if you follow the money again, this goes right
Speaker 2: back to the pharmaceutical industry, and they are putting a
Speaker 2: lot of pressure on their senators and congressmen to tell
Speaker 2: DA and the FDA and the federal government, hey, you
Speaker 2: need to increase the manufacturing numbers. And that's exactly what
Speaker 2: we've did. So if you look at the number of
Speaker 2: let me time myself out for just a second. I
Speaker 2: know there are kids out there who need certain things.
Speaker 2: I get it. I'm not telling people how to parent,
Speaker 2: but it doesn't make sense when you look at the
Speaker 2: overall numbers. We are feed our kids drugs and an
Speaker 2: earth earlier age these stimulates and it's already having impact.
Speaker 2: I work with law enforcement every state, and the number
Speaker 2: of narcotic agents who've told me that, hey, we've already
Speaker 2: seen an increase in methamphetamine and cocaine arrests from young people.
Speaker 2: If you look at the number of people dying from psychostimulants,
Speaker 2: cocaine and methamphetamine, it's increased, and sadly, I think it's
Speaker 2: going to continue to increase, especially for our young people.
Speaker 2: The same thing, it really pisses me out. The same
Speaker 2: thing that happened in the nineteen nineties with the pharmaceutical
Speaker 2: industry targeting opioids happen with psychostimulants and we just let
Speaker 2: it happen. And that's a trend in the next five
Speaker 2: ten years, people like me are going to be talking
Speaker 2: about in schools and you know, after the fact, because
Speaker 2: you know, we're a react to society. We're never proactive.
Speaker 1: I've said that more than once. I agree with you.
Speaker 1: We are way too reactive, way too reactive. So even
Speaker 1: if we get the cartels are an issue regardless. I
Speaker 1: mean it's everything from sex, trafficking, violence, you name, everything else,
Speaker 1: not just drugs. So we do got to get a
Speaker 1: handle on that. But it sounds like our drug issue
Speaker 1: is not going to really make a difference until we
Speaker 1: change how we handle the pharmaceutical industry and the medical
Speaker 1: industry in general when it comes to these addictive prescription drugs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's a challenge because that's where the money is.
Speaker 2: It's I mean, you look, you know, we talked about
Speaker 2: the opioid crisis, and I told you about like, you know,
Speaker 2: OxyContin and how by twenty twelve we hit like eighty
Speaker 2: eighty two prescriptions per one hundred people. We here in
Speaker 2: twenty sixteen Congress passes and it was pretty much an
Speaker 2: anonymous bill. I mean, both Republicans and Democrats supported it,
Speaker 2: and I forget the name of the bill, but it
Speaker 2: was it was basically to make DEA's job harder to
Speaker 2: go after suspicious drug suppliers. And this was and if
Speaker 2: you follow the money, it was the pharm seal clindustry
Speaker 2: that puts money in both both parties pockets and this
Speaker 2: was in twenty sixteen. We already had a problem in.
Speaker 1: This crazy So they're putting money in their pockets, but
Speaker 1: it's considered lobbying, right quotes for people who aren't watching us,
Speaker 1: So it's lobbying, and they're able to influence policy by lobbying, right,
Speaker 1: And you can't go after them because the company is
Speaker 1: its own entity, which is kind of its own person.
Speaker 1: So you're not really directly going after the people making
Speaker 1: the actual decisions unless you can all recal I guess, right,
Speaker 1: correlate their actions to what's going on in the company.
Speaker 1: Is that right? Am I on the right path there?
Speaker 2: Yeah? You're absolutely. Yeah. It's it's frustrating, it really is. Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's like it's like when they were convenient committees and
Speaker 2: they put these doctors together, and we now know that
Speaker 2: a significant number of these doctors were bought and paid for,
Speaker 2: you know, by the by the companies that they were
Speaker 2: there to talk about. I mean, that's what kind of
Speaker 2: conflict of your interest is that at the end of
Speaker 2: the day. I just don't know how people can go
Speaker 2: to bed at night, you know, how do they look
Speaker 2: in themselves in the mirror and then and then close
Speaker 2: their eyes and think, man, what are we doing? I mean,
Speaker 2: the greed and the it's just disgusting and that that's
Speaker 2: something that really just quite frankly pisses me off as
Speaker 2: well well.
Speaker 1: And that and so when when Scheinbaum said, you know,
Speaker 1: President Mexico, when she made that statement, people hate it.
Speaker 1: It's like all over acts everywhere, especially especially the hard
Speaker 1: right conservatives, were like, how dare she say that the
Speaker 1: only way we can hand the cartels are one way
Speaker 1: is to decrease the demand in the United States, like
Speaker 1: we're craving it, so that's why it's being sold. So
Speaker 1: she is spot on that in that statement. But you know,
Speaker 1: it's not the it's not the complete answer, but she
Speaker 1: is correct.
Speaker 2: You, No, it is a holistic answer, right, Like you said,
Speaker 2: I mean, we gotta we gotta take we gotta we
Speaker 2: gotta have some challenge, challenging questions and discussions within our
Speaker 2: own country and our own pharmaceuical industry and and a
Speaker 2: lot of things, not just them. You know, I know
Speaker 2: we're picking on them, but I also agree with the
Speaker 2: fact that we knew we need to reduce the demand.
Speaker 2: I mean, look at the global population of the world.
Speaker 2: The US is about four or maybe four and a
Speaker 2: half percent of the global population. The entire world population.
Speaker 2: We only represent four and a half percent, let's say.
Speaker 2: Yet we consume the most amount of drugs in the world. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and you can look at study after study after ste.
Speaker 1: We are the market, right, We're the global market.
Speaker 2: We are the market. And people can say, oh, you're
Speaker 2: thinking of third world countries. No, USC did a study
Speaker 2: back in twenty nineteen and they looked at just first
Speaker 2: world countries, you know, the England, Germany, Italy, Australia, just
Speaker 2: the big countries. Right, Your chances from dying from drugs
Speaker 2: are three times greater than those countries, the two lowest
Speaker 2: in the world, Italy and Japan. Your chances from dying
Speaker 2: from drugs in the US twenty seven times greater than
Speaker 2: those two countries. Your chances are from dying from drugs
Speaker 2: in the US by age fifty greater than any of
Speaker 2: those countries. I mean, we have to reduce the demand.
Speaker 1: So in a started by our own health care industry,
Speaker 1: for example, hooking our own people on this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was certainly certainly didn't hurt.
Speaker 1: That's a blunt way to say it, but I mean
Speaker 1: that's what it is right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean a lot of people were exploiting
Speaker 2: from with it.
Speaker 1: Let me let me be clear, I'm not I'm not
Speaker 1: saying that every doctor's bad like I'm with I'm not
Speaker 1: saying that. But if you're looking at the facts and
Speaker 1: data in all of all the years, you know, all
Speaker 1: of it back to when you were talking about the
Speaker 1: nineties and et cetera, it all leads back to that,
Speaker 1: it really does, and the greed of the people who
Speaker 1: are making the policy decisions. It's insane.
Speaker 2: I don't I don't disagree with you. I I that's
Speaker 2: it is insane, And that's the ethical and moral issues
Speaker 2: there that that's that's what That's what really bothers me.
Speaker 2: I know there's criminal activity, but but how do people again,
Speaker 2: how do they how do they look themselves in the
Speaker 2: in the mirror?
Speaker 1: And do you know if do you know of anything
Speaker 1: that's being done now to help with that situation with
Speaker 1: our prescription with our prescription drug problem. Are are they
Speaker 1: still focusing on that? Is that still something that's being
Speaker 1: looked at or did they kind of just step away
Speaker 1: from it after ninety six or seven and say, well,
Speaker 1: we kind of we did what we did now we're good.
Speaker 2: No, we once it hit its peak, which was twenty
Speaker 2: twelve and twenty thirteen, our government says, hey, we have
Speaker 2: a problem. So in twenty thirteen, yeah, so we've seen it.
Speaker 2: We started to regulate it more so we we've seen
Speaker 2: a significant increase. So we went from, like I said,
Speaker 2: around eighty one eighty two prescriptions per one hundred people
Speaker 2: to where we are now, which is thirty seven and
Speaker 2: a half. I believe as of twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1: Still a bit though it is.
Speaker 2: And then you know, like I said, when I travel,
Speaker 2: I actually look at the states that I travel in,
Speaker 2: and some some states are significantly high. And let's give
Speaker 2: you an example of the worst in the Well, the
Speaker 2: number one state in the United States for drug deaths
Speaker 2: is West Virginia. And if you look at the history
Speaker 2: of West Virginia, they were really ground zero for the
Speaker 2: OPIOAI crisis. So there is a correlation there. And then
Speaker 2: if you start diving into the counties in West Virginia,
Speaker 2: there were six counties that had over two hundred prescriptions
Speaker 2: per hundred people, two hundred plus prescriptions, and there's still
Speaker 2: a lot of they're still struggling in West Virginia with
Speaker 2: with overdoses and drug poisonings and and and legal opioids,
Speaker 2: and it's just it's it's going to take time.
Speaker 1: Is educating people enough though? I mean a lot of
Speaker 1: people say, well, if if you were educated, or if
Speaker 1: you're educated about how these drugs affect you, you wouldn't
Speaker 1: you wouldn't take them, or or you know, so easily
Speaker 1: take the prescription for example. Is that a true statement?
Speaker 1: Is education enough?
Speaker 2: Or or is it?
Speaker 1: I'm sorry to second part I forgot. I didn't mean
Speaker 1: to cut up sores. Here's the two part. Is education enough?
Speaker 1: And and two if they are educated, is it still
Speaker 1: enough to overcome the money behind the big farm in
Speaker 1: industry Because with all the advertisements and everything that's going
Speaker 1: on behind them peddling the drugs and associating it with
Speaker 1: this with its current with this current use case. Right,
Speaker 1: so I have a bad back, Hence I need to
Speaker 1: use brand a Right. So, is education enough? And is
Speaker 1: it enough to compete with the money that big forma has?
Speaker 2: I don't think it's enough on its own, but I
Speaker 2: certainly think it's an important uh in the in the solution.
Speaker 2: To me, this is a is not a complex solution.
Speaker 2: I think, I think it has to be a holistic
Speaker 2: I think it has to be different, you know. I
Speaker 2: think we we have to ramp up our our our
Speaker 2: efforts and our strategic focus on the two cartels. But
Speaker 2: I think the education part is is important. It's one
Speaker 2: thing that I've really dedicated you know, this portion of
Speaker 2: my life too, and it's why I started a nonprofit.
Speaker 2: I truly believe that information empowers people. I really do,
Speaker 2: especially young people. I know that we're going to be
Speaker 2: faced or I know that they're going to be faced
Speaker 2: with with a lot of decisions and and and sometimes
Speaker 2: you know, even with the right information, they're still going
Speaker 2: to make, you know, bad decisions. But it does work,
Speaker 2: and and there is a lot of research that says
Speaker 2: that people that have, especially young people, have the information
Speaker 2: are less likely not not no, but less likely to
Speaker 2: make those bad decisions. But on its own, no, I think.
Speaker 2: I again, I think we have to we have to
Speaker 2: approach us from from several different angles. And and like
Speaker 2: you said the second part of your question there, I mean,
Speaker 2: we're facing an industry that throws you know, billions of
Speaker 2: dollars and it's always, it's always that you look at smoking.
Speaker 2: I mean we we've made we made a lot of
Speaker 2: progress at smoking, especially for young people. And now I
Speaker 2: mean what did what did a lot of these companies
Speaker 2: do They turned their focus to like vaping and yeah,
Speaker 2: and in marijuana and things like that. So now we're
Speaker 2: we're starting the same thing with this new generation, trying
Speaker 2: to warn them just like we did back you know,
Speaker 2: twenty or thirty years ago on smoking.
Speaker 1: Right, and yeah, it's it's like these big pharma companies
Speaker 1: really have a huge hand and a social engineering or
Speaker 1: engineering of our culture. And I I think the I
Speaker 1: think the education part is important. I wanted your perspective
Speaker 1: on because the only way to change a culture or
Speaker 1: habit of culture is to start with the youth and
Speaker 1: then generationally, eventually you'll be able to make that change.
Speaker 1: So it's not gonna be overnight, but we've got to start.
Speaker 1: We've got to start and stick to the plan. Sounds
Speaker 1: like that's exactly what you're doing with with your two companies,
Speaker 1: and you're with your nonprofit and your egal six because
Speaker 1: even your egal six you train law enforcement on some
Speaker 1: of the stuff as well.
Speaker 2: Right, we do, Yeah, we we get into more you know,
Speaker 2: smother things. Leadership and smother things that I have been
Speaker 2: interest in. But but yeah, certainly, and I I agree.
Speaker 2: I mean if we can, if we can change a
Speaker 2: generation and get them to think differently than than, that
Speaker 2: sets us up for success in the future. And that's
Speaker 2: what we need.
Speaker 1: Well, back to the cartels. Are we on the right
Speaker 1: path so far? Are we? I mean labeling a terrorist organization?
Speaker 2: Is that?
Speaker 1: Is that the right? Is that the perfect way to
Speaker 1: start this by actually saying, yeah, it's a serious I
Speaker 1: think so.
Speaker 2: I yeah, I mean we got to address it. I
Speaker 2: mean we you know, and that's that's one thing I
Speaker 2: do like about you know that that we're we're actually
Speaker 2: having this conversation nationally now. It's you know, and I
Speaker 2: know that there's still people that are playing politics and
Speaker 2: because it came out of his mouth and there are
Speaker 2: people that have to just you know, oppose it just
Speaker 2: because it was him.
Speaker 1: People are very team oriented, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, uh, Derek Maltz uh. I know
Speaker 2: there's been some change the DA this last couple of days,
Speaker 2: but you know, he he I think he's still the
Speaker 2: acting administrator. I mean, he always says and I steal
Speaker 2: this line it's not a red issue or a blue issue.
Speaker 2: It's a red, white and blue issue. And I who
Speaker 2: hardly agree. I mean, we've got to take off our
Speaker 2: rs and r d's and say, hey, you know this
Speaker 2: is this is killing our country, especially our young people.
Speaker 2: And so I think, uh, I'm happy that we're having
Speaker 2: this discussion nationally, you know, I I I don't know
Speaker 2: how it's gonna end up with with us in Mexico,
Speaker 2: but but hey, you know what, both parts, both both
Speaker 2: countries are at the table talking and that's exactly what
Speaker 2: we need. We need action.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we do, absolutely, and and it's it's it is
Speaker 1: a uh, there's not it's not like a blanket solution
Speaker 1: to this. I mean, we got to change our cultural
Speaker 1: perspective on how we use drugs and how we think
Speaker 1: drugs are beneficial to us, right. I think they need
Speaker 1: to stop letting big pharma advertise like that's got to stop.
Speaker 1: That's got to stop. Advertisement is meant for you to
Speaker 1: recognize a brand. And if you're at the point where
Speaker 1: you recognize a prescription drug brand at that like every
Speaker 1: day in your life for like you know, oh o zempa,
Speaker 1: I'm just doing out there by the way. I'm not
Speaker 1: talking bad about it, but just saying everybody knows it now, right,
Speaker 1: So the first thing you think when you want to
Speaker 1: lose weight is ozempic. That's exactly what marketing does. And
Speaker 1: the fact that they're allowing big pharma to do that
Speaker 1: in America is ridiculous. I don't think I don't think
Speaker 1: any of the country allows that currently.
Speaker 2: No, you know, it's it's funny when I my four
Speaker 2: hour class, I do dive into a little bit of
Speaker 2: the history of the pharmaceutical industry, and interestingly enough, it
Speaker 2: actually goes back to a guy named Arthur Sackler. And
Speaker 2: if you know that name Sackler, that's because Richard Sackler
Speaker 2: was the head of Purdue, you know during the release
Speaker 2: ninety six. But his uncle is a guy named Arthur,
Speaker 2: and Arthur was a He was a doctor as well,
Speaker 2: but he was actually an advertising quote unquote genius. In fact,
Speaker 2: they say that he invented the wheel when it came
Speaker 2: to modern medical advertising, and a lot of things that
Speaker 2: he did back in the fifties are regulated today that
Speaker 2: they can't do. I mean, he was uber aggressive, I
Speaker 2: mean pharmaceutical reps. He actually is the guy that started it.
Speaker 2: They called him detail men. So he was the first
Speaker 2: guy that said, hey, we need to we can't target patients.
Speaker 2: We can't target people because they're idiots. We need to
Speaker 2: go out to the physicians and we need to keep
Speaker 2: records on them, and we need to educate the physicians
Speaker 2: that aren't prescribing enough, and we need to use the
Speaker 2: ones that are and reward them and use them to
Speaker 2: educate the ones that aren't prescribing enough. And he was
Speaker 2: just very aggressive. And if you look at his history
Speaker 2: and how successful he made the pharmaceutical industry. I mean Pfizer,
Speaker 2: I mean Terrimizing that was released in nineteen fifty. He
Speaker 2: made them a household name. This was forty thirty or
Speaker 2: forty years before Viagra came out. I mean that's just
Speaker 2: one example. A valume diazepam. I mean, he made them
Speaker 2: the first pharmaceutical to make a billion dollars in sales.
Speaker 2: That's crazy, billion dollars in sales. That's crazy, absolutely, And
Speaker 2: it was very in your face aggressive advertising. And like
Speaker 2: I said, it may not seem like it, but there
Speaker 2: are a lot of restrictions on them. You know, I
Speaker 2: think we both agree there probably needs to be more.
Speaker 2: But a lot of the current restrictions are because of
Speaker 2: some of the stuff that he invented. Uh So it's
Speaker 2: and it's just fascinating because here's here's a Sackler and
Speaker 2: then you look, you know, forty years later, his his nephew,
Speaker 2: Richard Sackler, would would make them billionaires and then run
Speaker 2: them into the ground.
Speaker 1: That just that just speaks to the That just speaks
Speaker 1: to how far they will go to make a dollar.
Speaker 1: Because if they're if they're looking at their product that
Speaker 1: that that can be addictive, for example, can be addictive,
Speaker 1: and they know this, They know that certain drugs have
Speaker 1: side effects, and they're knowingly advertising it in the ways
Speaker 1: that they do. That just tells you what they really
Speaker 1: care about. Are they really caring about treating people and
Speaker 1: offering them pain management or are they just really looking
Speaker 1: for as much profit that they can make.
Speaker 2: I'd make an argument that at least with Purdue, they
Speaker 2: were it was about profit. I mean, we know that
Speaker 2: from a lot of internal documents, and I think you
Speaker 2: could make that argument with a lot of the companies.
Speaker 2: I mean, at least you could certainly a question we
Speaker 2: could ask. It's also around the food industry. You know,
Speaker 2: the Fielders that I actually did a show where I
Speaker 2: did deep dive on this and the ingredients that are
Speaker 2: using food here in America would never be using the EU.
Speaker 2: They're labeled as poisonous substances, but yet we're consuming them.
Speaker 2: It was about almost a three hour episode where I
Speaker 2: really dove into all this and it's ridiculous what we're
Speaker 2: allowed to use here in what the FDA says is
Speaker 2: suitable for consumption, that in the EU they wouldn't even touch,
Speaker 2: even touch even even the foods we have for example,
Speaker 2: like craft of st macaron and cheese. Yeah, if it's
Speaker 2: shipped to the EU or or let's say, even if
Speaker 2: it was to Italy, the cheese substance they use, the
Speaker 2: powdered cheese substance, is entirely different to those countries than
Speaker 2: what we're consuming.
Speaker 1: What's what's considered acceptable for us to have. So it's
Speaker 1: not like you said, it's not just the farm and industry.
Speaker 1: It's it's ridiculous that it's it's like money before health, right, money,
Speaker 1: money before looking out for the welfare of the actual people.
Speaker 2: It is. I was in I was in Germany last week.
Speaker 2: I I uh and I was I had some I
Speaker 2: had some French fries and I was eaten ketchup right,
Speaker 2: and I was like, why is this ketchup tastes like different?
Speaker 2: And and I realized it was.
Speaker 1: Like real, it was fresh, just tomatoes and maybe a
Speaker 1: little sugar. It wasn't some vinegar.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And you know, and I actually had this
Speaker 2: conversation with someone else very similar common It's conversation about
Speaker 2: like the food. I mean, you taste the difference, right,
Speaker 2: and you come back and you read our labels and
Speaker 2: and then like you said, none of this stuff would
Speaker 2: even be legal in some of those countries, and it
Speaker 2: was Yeah, at the end of the day, this is
Speaker 2: it's it's all about.
Speaker 1: Profits for the most fun about the food when youre
Speaker 1: talk about labels. Once once they said that every every
Speaker 1: manufacturer had to actually list all the ingredients. I noticed
Speaker 1: that the labels got really tiny and I need a
Speaker 1: magnifying class to read it. They don't want Well, let's
Speaker 1: talk about your nonprofit the only two Milligrams inc. Let's
Speaker 1: talk about that and what you offer, and then how
Speaker 1: people can contact your company to procure your services.
Speaker 2: So so I I'm the executive director. I started this
Speaker 2: nonprofit officially in early twenty twenty four when we got
Speaker 2: IRS designation as a five oh one C three. Our
Speaker 2: entire board of directors is retired DEA agents. And like
Speaker 2: I said, O, our mission has been uh drug education,
Speaker 2: specifically illicit fentanyl, but we are expanding that and looking
Speaker 2: at other ways that we can that we can uh
Speaker 2: deal with with trends and things that are impacting our
Speaker 2: communities because ultimately, our our goal is to is to
Speaker 2: is to make our community safer and and uh so
Speaker 2: we're looking at ways to to expand our reach and
Speaker 2: and to get into other things other than just drug education. Uh.
Speaker 2: My website is at only two MG dot com, so
Speaker 2: it's O N L Y and then just the number
Speaker 2: two it's not spelled out, and then MG which stands
Speaker 2: for Milligrams dot com. And you can you can learn
Speaker 2: more about the presentations I do. My schedules on there.
Speaker 2: You know, if you want my bio things like that,
Speaker 2: uh uh you can you can contact me. My information
Speaker 2: is on there. If I don't get back to you
Speaker 2: right away, it's because I'm flying or teaching, uh or
Speaker 2: or I'm on a podcast. So right, so like this one,
Speaker 2: that's right. Uh Uh, I travel throughout the US. Last
Speaker 2: year I did fifty four present main presentations in about
Speaker 2: twenty states, so that's quite a bit. I self fund
Speaker 2: a lot of what I did last year. I can't
Speaker 2: I'm not a rich person. I can't can't continue to
Speaker 2: do that, but I but I don't want money to
Speaker 2: get in the way of this. So when an organization
Speaker 2: calls me if they can't afford to fund my travel
Speaker 2: out there, and then I'll find a way somehow, and
Speaker 2: that's typically through my for profit organization, EGLE six Training.
Speaker 2: I pretty much put all that money into into only
Speaker 2: two MG because like I said, I don't want someone
Speaker 2: to say, hey, we can't afford to have you out here,
Speaker 2: and no, I mean I'll find a way to get
Speaker 2: out there because this discussion is too important not to have.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 1: And as you said earlier, man, the education is very
Speaker 1: important in all this, and that's where it really starts.
Speaker 2: It really is. And yeah, and you know when I
Speaker 2: started this with actually law enforcement, because you know, like
Speaker 2: I said, I navigated in that world for thirty years
Speaker 2: and I still work in that world. But now, I mean,
Speaker 2: these are wildly popular with just the public. I still
Speaker 2: get usually specific sectors, you know, a lot of healthcare,
Speaker 2: a lot of education, a lot of people that are
Speaker 2: in the treatment recovery, you know, a lot of law enforcement.
Speaker 2: But I wish I could get more parents and just
Speaker 2: general public. That's been a struggle. I'm not alone. When
Speaker 2: I first started this, a friend of mine, retired agent
Speaker 2: out out in California said, because if you get if
Speaker 2: you get more than one percent of the of the
Speaker 2: families in the room, than good luck, because it's just
Speaker 2: not going to happen. And I remember when he first
Speaker 2: said that, I'm like, come on now, you know, and
Speaker 2: and I had I had a specific presentation I was
Speaker 2: doing just four families and I had six people show up. Wow,
Speaker 2: you know, out of several thousand people in this particular
Speaker 2: school that I was working with. So I experienced that firsthand.
Speaker 2: I mean so, like I said, most of the folks
Speaker 2: that come are you know, from those industries that I
Speaker 2: talked about. But I would love to I'd love to
Speaker 2: see more people just give a damn and really want
Speaker 2: to educate themselves. And that's one of the things that
Speaker 2: I try to tell people as well, is in all
Speaker 2: my presentations is is take this information, do some research.
Speaker 2: Call me. I'll help you with that and be a
Speaker 2: force multiplier, you know, take this information back to your homes,
Speaker 2: back to your your communities, your your rotary club, church, whatever.
Speaker 2: I mean, let's let's let's have this discussion. I mean,
Speaker 2: we're we're losing three hundred people every single day in
Speaker 2: this country to drugs. That's about one person every five
Speaker 2: to six minutes. And we know that of the total
Speaker 2: numbers that we're losing about two thirds because of one drug, fentanyl.
Speaker 2: And I can tell you, after thirty years in law enforcement,
Speaker 2: I've never seen a drug more impactful. I really haven't.
Speaker 2: I mean, this has changed the drug landscape. And education
Speaker 2: is such an important piece. And like I said something,
Speaker 2: I've devoted this part of my life to doing and
Speaker 2: I hope that that I can be a force multiplayer
Speaker 2: and give people a foundation that they can take the
Speaker 2: information back and they can have these discussions. And at
Speaker 2: the end of the day, knowledge is power, and and that's.
Speaker 1: What we have to do.
Speaker 2: We have to make people more knowledgeable.
Speaker 1: I agree, And I hope that people don't don't avoid
Speaker 1: these sessions because they don't they don't want it to
Speaker 1: be in their face that it's confirming what they already know. Yes,
Speaker 1: there is a problem. Yeah, that could be a case too.
Speaker 1: You know, some people, some people don't want to They
Speaker 1: have an idea that there's a problem, but they really
Speaker 1: don't want it confirmed.
Speaker 2: I've had parents actually tell me out of sight, out
Speaker 2: of mind basically what I was saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: and I can. At first, I was like, you know,
Speaker 2: but now I just tell them. You realize that someone's
Speaker 2: going to have this discussion. I mean, well, if it's
Speaker 2: not you, it's you're the parent. If it's not you,
Speaker 2: then it's going to be social media. It's going to
Speaker 2: be a friend, it's going to be a drug trafficker.
Speaker 2: Someone's going to have this discussion with your child, you know,
Speaker 2: And it's just it. It makes me sad, it really does.
Speaker 2: I mean, here's an example. I won't say the school district,
Speaker 2: but I was invited to a school district that wanted
Speaker 2: to have one to provide different resources for parents, and
Speaker 2: they so it was drugs, it was teen pregnancy, it
Speaker 2: was nutrition, it was suicide, it was online predators. I mean,
Speaker 2: my goodness. They probably had ten experts in different fields
Speaker 2: come in and then they said, we get it. Parents work,
Speaker 2: they're busy, we're going to do one on a weekend,
Speaker 2: and we're going to do one on a week night,
Speaker 2: and we're going to have ten experts and all these
Speaker 2: different fields come in two different times. And I was
Speaker 2: the drug guy. You know how many folks had come
Speaker 2: in for my class zero and it wasn't me. The
Speaker 2: other classes a lot of zeros. They had seventeen parents
Speaker 2: show up total for the two different days total. This
Speaker 2: was a huge school district. Do you think when when, when,
Speaker 2: when when daughter gets pregnant or something happens, who do
Speaker 2: you think gets the blame? You know, well, you didn't
Speaker 2: do enough, you didn't do enough. No people got to
Speaker 2: get involved, and and it just it's aggravating, it really is.
Speaker 1: Do you think they should make these this information like
Speaker 1: a mandatory class like they do used to you years
Speaker 1: ago in school? Remember when I was going when I
Speaker 1: was going to school, that there was a class that
Speaker 1: you would have to attend to where they would address
Speaker 1: these these issues or it would literally be like a
Speaker 1: rally for example, where the whole school, like it's during
Speaker 1: school time and you have to be there and they
Speaker 1: would get these presentations. Are they still allowing that? Are
Speaker 1: they still doing that?
Speaker 2: Yeah? And I love when they do. I was up
Speaker 2: in rural Missouri, in the middle of the state, on
Speaker 2: the very top of the state, I don't know, probably
Speaker 2: two or three weeks ago, and I got to address
Speaker 2: a couple of school districts and that was wonderful and
Speaker 2: I love when schools do that. We even had some
Speaker 2: parents show up, which was even even better, right because
Speaker 2: they're supporting their children, they're supporting the school district. Some
Speaker 2: states have have think Oregon just came on and said
Speaker 2: they're going to require that. Now you know, I know
Speaker 2: people are going to hear this and say, oh, no,
Speaker 2: read and write, that's what we need, And yeah, we
Speaker 2: should be teaching our kids to read and write. I'm
Speaker 2: totally with you. But let me tell you, these are conversations,
Speaker 2: aren't We aren't having that we're not having in the home.
Speaker 2: So if a school can can can bring someone in
Speaker 2: like me or anyone who come in and give their
Speaker 2: children accurate information to help them successfully navigate some of
Speaker 2: these challenges are going to face, then why not? I mean,
Speaker 2: why can't we get behind this? And that's why I
Speaker 2: created my Shattering Dreams presentation. It was specifically for students,
Speaker 2: is to give them the information, and and and and
Speaker 2: again empower them to make better decisions when they're faced
Speaker 2: with these.
Speaker 1: Question and maybe maybe these sessions that for example, like
Speaker 1: what you offer should be something that let's say district
Speaker 1: administration at a school should have. It should be like
Speaker 1: a mandatory. You know, hey, school starting again, summer's over,
Speaker 1: let's get you know, it's all part of their professional
Speaker 1: development training, right, they should integrate this as part of
Speaker 1: that have have you Have you seen any district do that?
Speaker 2: A few? Yeah, yeah, and there are I mean, I
Speaker 2: know some folks in the same space. You know, my
Speaker 2: space has been kind of a lot of adults, a
Speaker 2: lot of law enforcement. I know some some people that
Speaker 2: are specifically focused in that in that space for for students,
Speaker 2: and they've been pretty successful.
Speaker 1: Well that's that's a positive. Yeah, that's a positive. And
Speaker 1: then when you when you do these big rallies what's
Speaker 1: out of school is do you get a positive reaction
Speaker 1: from from students there?
Speaker 2: Yeah? And let me tell you it, it really drives me.
Speaker 2: It really does. When you when you have a student
Speaker 2: come up to you. I had a college student come
Speaker 2: up to me at a different event that I was at,
Speaker 2: probably a month after I did this particular session and
Speaker 2: he was like, hey, connect and I didn't even know
Speaker 2: who it was. He was like, can I tell you something.
Speaker 2: I'm like yeah, and he goes, I saw you speak,
Speaker 2: and you know, I've been really, you know, making some
Speaker 2: really bad decisions in my life, and you made me
Speaker 2: think about some things and and you know, thank you,
Speaker 2: you know, I mean, and I was almost in tears.
Speaker 2: I mean, just even thinking about it really just kind
Speaker 2: of moves me. And I can't tell you how many
Speaker 2: young people who have come up to me in middle
Speaker 2: school students and just hug you and say, you know,
Speaker 2: thank you, you know, because they're getting really impactful information
Speaker 2: and that no one's given given them before. And that
Speaker 2: I tell you that that has been the overwhelming response
Speaker 2: I have had. I have had zero and I hope
Speaker 2: I'm not jinxing myself here. I've had zero negative response
Speaker 2: from talking to young people.
Speaker 1: It's just that's good. Oh, it's been a wonderful experience.
Speaker 1: We need we need to continue the education. We definitely
Speaker 1: need to change how prescription drugs are handled in America period.
Speaker 1: And yeah, the cartels are definitely a problem that we
Speaker 1: need to get a hold of, especially if if they're
Speaker 1: the ones who are responsible for I mean the majority
Speaker 1: of all drugs that are that are being imported into
Speaker 1: the US or smuggled into the US. It's it's crazy,
Speaker 1: it's it's not an easy issue to get a hold of.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know better than I. You were in
Speaker 1: law enforcement. This is what you did before we before
Speaker 1: we go, though, I got to ask you, have you
Speaker 1: seen a positive change at all in getting a handle
Speaker 1: on the situation? I mean we talked a lot, got
Speaker 1: a lot of history, But have you seen a positive
Speaker 1: change or are we in the same place? Are we
Speaker 1: taking steps backwards? Where do you see us at now?
Speaker 2: I have seen a positive change. I mean we're not
Speaker 2: We're nowhere out of this mess. I mean we are
Speaker 2: an illicited fentanyl crisis. And you know, we're, like I said,
Speaker 2: we're losing three hundred people a day and the majority
Speaker 2: of these people are because of this one drug. We're
Speaker 2: having this discussion more. I think that's a healthy thing,
Speaker 2: you know. I think that's going to hopefully lead to
Speaker 2: more solutions and more people that are that are you know,
Speaker 2: hitting the ground and actually trying to work towards solutions.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm optimistic. I think we have seen some progress,
Speaker 2: and I think we need have a long way to go.
Speaker 2: I think, you know, one thing we didn't talk about
Speaker 2: was the stigma. You know, how we how we treat
Speaker 2: people that are struggling with substance use disorder, with addiction.
Speaker 2: You know, I think that's slowly getting better, but it's uh,
Speaker 2: you know that's going to be part of of of
Speaker 2: of the solution is how do we deal with that
Speaker 2: as well. Yeah, the bottom line is I've seen a
Speaker 2: I think it's more positive, but it's been a slow movement.
Speaker 2: How's that.
Speaker 1: Well, at least at least you're seeing it as a
Speaker 1: positive as someone who's still involved. At least you're seeing
Speaker 1: things start to go into go the right direction and
Speaker 1: get a handle on all this. So well, I think
Speaker 1: that's my time, your time for now. Doesn't mean we
Speaker 1: won't connect again. I think we will. I'll stay in
Speaker 1: touch with you. I'd like to have you back. But yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you, Brian. And again, tell everybody your websites and
Speaker 1: I'll try to put all that our show notes as
Speaker 1: well as when they listen to this day. Have the links.
Speaker 1: So again you have only two milligrams inc. And then
Speaker 1: of course you have the Eagle six training and uh, yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you very much. Want anything else you want to add.
Speaker 2: No, I appreciate that your time and and happy to
Speaker 2: reconnect any time. Uh. If someone wants to get in
Speaker 2: touch with me, only two MG is the best way
Speaker 2: to to read more about it or more about me
Speaker 2: and and and contact me. And I'm happy to happy
Speaker 2: to help in any capacity I can.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, appreciate it, and uh, thanks for adjusting your
Speaker 1: time for melgizing.
Speaker 2: All good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, man, Hey, great conversation, a lot of good info.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much for being on the show. Appreciate it. Okay,
Speaker 1: World of Bladies listeners as always, thanks for listening, and
Speaker 1: don't forget to like, subscribe, share the show, and click
Speaker 1: the notification button.
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