Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed by individuals on the following
Speaker 1: program do not necessarily reflect those of the network, Guys
Speaker 1: Guy Radio and its platforms.
Speaker 2: It's Guys Guy Radio. Here's your host, Robert Manny.
Speaker 3: Welcome to Guys Guys Radio. This is your host, Robert Manny,
Speaker 3: welcoming you to the show where men and women can
Speaker 3: be at their best and everyone wins. Guys Guys Radio,
Speaker 3: We're here to inform you, inspire you, empower you, and
Speaker 3: get you to think, feel, and who knows, maybe even
Speaker 3: act by virtue of the journeys, stories, experiences and insights
Speaker 3: of the guests I bring you each and every week
Speaker 3: to the show. Once again, this week is no exception.
Speaker 3: Today we're going to talk about kind of the different
Speaker 3: stages of aging. And I think this is a really
Speaker 3: good show for guys because our special guest is Kenneth Lakretz, PhD.
Speaker 3: He's written a really wonderful book called Remembering Self Seasons
Speaker 3: of the Soul Rediscovered through Mystical Experience and depth Psychology.
Speaker 3: It's really about how to how to really go back
Speaker 3: and peel the layers away and learn and rediscover who
Speaker 3: you really are. And I think that's important, particularly for us,
Speaker 3: for us boomer guys out there, because throughout our lives,
Speaker 3: we're kind of told by the cultural narrative, well, you're
Speaker 3: this age and here's your role. And you're that age
Speaker 3: and here's your role, and eventually you're too old, get
Speaker 3: out of the way. Well it doesn't have to be
Speaker 3: that way. And I'm sure you or you have friends,
Speaker 3: if you are a boomer, know a lot of different
Speaker 3: folks who really define themselves via their job and their wallet.
Speaker 2: If you will.
Speaker 3: And it gets to a certain point where they get
Speaker 3: a little bit concerned because they don't want to they
Speaker 3: don't want to leave that work they've done. And I
Speaker 3: have friends who are in their seventies and they put
Speaker 3: on the tie and sport coat and they go to
Speaker 3: work every day, and you know, they enjoy it, but
Speaker 3: also maybe maybe they're wondering what's next after this and
Speaker 3: they haven't really come to terms with their identity. So
Speaker 3: we're going to get into that and a lot more.
Speaker 3: It's really like, you know, what if midlife isn't a crisis,
Speaker 3: but it's a spiritual awakening, And I think that can
Speaker 3: happen for anybody at any time. But we're going to
Speaker 3: get into how to manage the life stages and how
Speaker 3: to kind of transcend from aging to eldering and really
Speaker 3: being a beacon of light to help other people. So
Speaker 3: I think you're going to enjoy my conversation with doctor
Speaker 3: Ken Lacret's right here on Guys Guys Radio.
Speaker 2: It's Guys Guy Radio.
Speaker 3: Okay, guys guys Radio. It is the interview portion of
Speaker 3: our show. And hey, you know, guys, when we talk
Speaker 3: about growth, we usually focus on achievement, career, relationships, money, status.
Speaker 3: But what happens when life asks us to go deeper?
Speaker 3: What happens when the soul starts calling louder than the ego?
Speaker 3: Sometimes that's a good thing. My guest tonight is clinical psychologist,
Speaker 3: Youngian analyst and author Kenneth R. Lacret's, PhD, whose powerful
Speaker 3: new book Remembering Self Guidance for the Labyrinth of Life
Speaker 3: and Beyond explores a psychological and spiritual journey through midlife elderhood.
Speaker 3: And we'll get into that identity, attachment, soul, evolution, and
Speaker 3: what it really means to become whole. That's a big task,
Speaker 3: but we're going to get into it. We're going to
Speaker 3: talk about mind, body, spirit, young, shadow work, the Four
Speaker 3: Seasons of Life, and the mysterious Guide at the center
Speaker 3: of the book, sheima. So, welcome to guys, Guys radio
Speaker 3: doctor Kenneth Lakritz, PhD.
Speaker 4: How are you, doctor, I'm doing well this morning. Thank
Speaker 4: you for inviting me on the show.
Speaker 3: Fantastic. So why do you think, doctor, so many successful
Speaker 3: people reach midlife feeling disconnected, restless, or spiritually emptied despite
Speaker 3: having it all. You know a lot of guys, particularly
Speaker 3: in the boomer airs, and I would, I would take
Speaker 3: a chance and say, you're probably just about in the
Speaker 3: boomer age. I'm a boomer and I know so many
Speaker 3: of my friends. They you know, their their identity is
Speaker 3: tethered to their position. A lot of them won't retire.
Speaker 3: They don't need the money. They like to put the
Speaker 3: tie on and get on the train and go to work,
Speaker 3: and they just won't let it go. And I think
Speaker 3: a lot of it's about power and identity and money
Speaker 3: and comfort and fear and all of the rest. But
Speaker 3: you're the you're this here, the young in psychoanalyst here.
Speaker 3: So tell us what we need to know.
Speaker 4: Well, you know what I'm going to do is I'm
Speaker 4: going to begin with a history lesson, okay, because I
Speaker 4: think that we can't fully understand where we are without
Speaker 4: understanding history and what history has brought us to, particularly
Speaker 4: in the in the modern era, and we're kind of
Speaker 4: in a postmodernist time. Is this brought us into a
Speaker 4: peak differentiation of the ego from the ground of self
Speaker 4: or from the ground of being. And you could say,
Speaker 4: if you looked at it pictorially, that the ego is
Speaker 4: kind of a high noon in terms of its separation
Speaker 4: from the self. Now, what happens when it reaches high
Speaker 4: noon is we find ourselves in a period of alienation
Speaker 4: from the ground of who we are, and symptoms start
Speaker 4: to emerge at that point, which starts to take us
Speaker 4: into midlife. But what happens is people find themselves so
Speaker 4: identified with the ego because they think that that's who
Speaker 4: they are. They think that that's all there is, that
Speaker 4: they're very resistant to make these kinds of shifts that
Speaker 4: we think are appropriate second half of life shifts. But
Speaker 4: why would we make a shift like that if we
Speaker 4: think this is who we are and the ground of
Speaker 4: being is so silent, it is so distant, it's so
Speaker 4: detached that we in the modern era believe that there's
Speaker 4: nothing to shift into.
Speaker 3: Amazing. So, you know, young who you studied extensively, spoke
Speaker 3: about individuation, the process of becoming whole. How does your
Speaker 3: book Remembering Self expand upon or personalize that concept.
Speaker 4: What I try to do in the book is bring
Speaker 4: it into a story, because I think that a story
Speaker 4: particularly and this is about a figure named Samah who
Speaker 4: is at the end of his life. He's ninety three
Speaker 4: years old and he's reviewing his life, and he's able
Speaker 4: to see from a transcendent lens and also from a
Speaker 4: very imminent personal lens, and he's able to trace his
Speaker 4: life back. Now, what we see when we trace our
Speaker 4: lives back is we see the growth of the ego,
Speaker 4: which is an unfolding and a differentiating process. It is
Speaker 4: not about wholeness per se. It's about leaving a gun
Speaker 4: of unconscious, undifferentiated wholeness. It's about developing an articulated personality
Speaker 4: that functions in the human matrix of life. You know,
Speaker 4: that builds attachments to their lives, attachments to their identity.
Speaker 4: That becomes a student and a son or a daughter,
Speaker 4: eventually an adult and someone who can function in the
Speaker 4: adult world. Hopefully and that's the whole idea of building
Speaker 4: a solid vessel of egos that we can actually function
Speaker 4: in a world and build a structure in that world
Speaker 4: through career and marriage and family that can hold the
Speaker 4: depth of the task of adulthood. Now through the story,
Speaker 4: what we find is that there is also there's a
Speaker 4: phase of midlife, and we go through many transitional phases
Speaker 4: throughout life, but there's a phase of midlife in which
Speaker 4: this structure begins to collapse. And when the structure collapses,
Speaker 4: we begin searching in the kind of the dry soil
Speaker 4: for some new meaning. But it's very difficult to find
Speaker 4: at the level of ego, because the true source of
Speaker 4: meaning is the connection to the ground of being that
Speaker 4: we have spent our entire first half of life leaving
Speaker 4: correct And so we get to that point and we
Speaker 4: go through what the alchemists call it's a solvent phase
Speaker 4: or a disillusion phase. Not disillusion, but disillusion, which means
Speaker 4: for things to kind of begin to dissolve and loosen up,
Speaker 4: and we start to get glimpses at what's underneath and
Speaker 4: what we move from a what I think of as
Speaker 4: a descending phase, which is we're descending into the body
Speaker 4: into the life, incarnating fully into the human identity. And
Speaker 4: then what happens is wet shifting into what some believe
Speaker 4: is an ascension phase. And this ascension phase is emergence
Speaker 4: of the ground. It's emergence of the self. Now, when
Speaker 4: the self begins to emerge and wants to begin to
Speaker 4: have a central role in identity and in life, there
Speaker 4: has to be an integrative process, and some would call
Speaker 4: it reintegration. Okay, and this is what young talk a
Speaker 4: great deal about. An individuation is individuation means to be undivided.
Speaker 4: But what happens is we spend the first half of
Speaker 4: our life dividing. Okay, we divide into many dimensions of
Speaker 4: who we are. And through this dividing process, we actually
Speaker 4: become so alienated from self for a lot of reasons,
Speaker 4: because the identity can hold everything. And so what we're
Speaker 4: doing in the second half of life is we're beginning
Speaker 4: to recollect, not just memory recollection, that's part of it,
Speaker 4: and that's why the remembering title is there. But we
Speaker 4: start to remember and we start to recollect all of
Speaker 4: the dimensions and pieces and parts of self that have
Speaker 4: been split off and abandoned and we start to move
Speaker 4: toward an undivided state, okay, which is what you would
Speaker 4: many talk about is wholeness, and that's what individuation is.
Speaker 4: It means to be undivided. Okay.
Speaker 3: My special guest on this week's Guys Guys Radio, doctor
Speaker 3: Kenneth R. Lacret's PhD.
Speaker 4: The book.
Speaker 3: I'm holding it up right here for your YouTube and
Speaker 3: rumble viewers, remembering self Seasons of the Soul Rediscovered through
Speaker 3: mystical experience and depth psychology. So this process and path
Speaker 3: that you're describing, doctor, is this something that is specif
Speaker 3: to our Western culture or is this a universal concept?
Speaker 4: You know, it's definitely a universal concept because what we
Speaker 4: we if you look collectively throughout history and you know,
Speaker 4: independent of geography, what we saw during the period of
Speaker 4: eight hundred BC to about five hundred you know AD,
Speaker 4: is we saw what we call the first axial Age.
Speaker 4: And the first Axial Age happened everywhere in the known
Speaker 4: world at once. It was a very mysterious process. It's
Speaker 4: when philosophy and religion started to emerge. And this was
Speaker 4: the first step in the differentiation of the ego and
Speaker 4: the kind of the birth of the ego from the
Speaker 4: self where it began to start. We began reflecting on ourselves.
Speaker 4: So there was actually two dimensions. There's the ground of
Speaker 4: being and there's the reflecting ego, which is an extension
Speaker 4: of this ground of being, was born from this ground
Speaker 4: to be, and it's what some would call an organ
Speaker 4: of the psyche and so being the first stage. What
Speaker 4: we've seen throughout Western civilization in particular, is we've seen
Speaker 4: constant differentiation up until the period of about nineteen hundred,
Speaker 4: where collectively we were going through the same process of
Speaker 4: this differentiation that we now go through in the first
Speaker 4: half of life. Okay, so this was happening everywhere, all
Speaker 4: at once, and so different cultures looked at this differentiation
Speaker 4: and this separation from unity differently. They had different names
Speaker 4: for it, they had different processes. But I think that
Speaker 4: Eyung and the Western you know, movement of psychology, which
Speaker 4: really began during the nineteen hundreds and the twentieth century,
Speaker 4: was I think, you know, attempt to make our way
Speaker 4: back through through the consulting room, you know, through the clinic,
Speaker 4: through the ground of who we are. Now. Other religions
Speaker 4: have done that through Buddhism, has done that through meditation,
Speaker 4: other religions have had many different ways yoga, the yoga
Speaker 4: tradition had different their way of making their way back
Speaker 4: to the ground of being. In the West, we have
Speaker 4: looked at it from from kind of a psychiatric and
Speaker 4: psychological point of view, where we see it as a
Speaker 4: clinical process to make our way back to this unity.
Speaker 3: So it sounds like, you know, since all the cultures
Speaker 3: go through the same thing, and from from my perspective,
Speaker 3: we're given roles, We're given a narrative by our culture,
Speaker 3: which basically is as kind of you describe, you're a
Speaker 3: student at a certain age and then you're the worker
Speaker 3: and you're learning things, and that creates some type of
Speaker 3: ego comfort for us. That vessel starts to get filled up.
Speaker 3: But then it can become too much because we're relying
Speaker 3: on the narrative to define who we are. There must
Speaker 3: be a balance there that we can find. So instead
Speaker 3: of waiting until you're eldering, if you will, to figure
Speaker 3: all of this out or having that life changing incident happen,
Speaker 3: that you start to look at things differently. What can
Speaker 3: people do on their path so they don't fall victim
Speaker 3: and quotes to the narrative, And can be who they
Speaker 3: want to be yet kind of blend in with the culture.
Speaker 4: That's a beautiful question because when you think about balance,
Speaker 4: in some ways you have to defer to the psyche
Speaker 4: and how it provides that balance. You know, we could say,
Speaker 4: g I want that balance. Well, what happens is during
Speaker 4: the midlife process and transition. You know, the psyche is
Speaker 4: trying to restore balance. And what it does is as
Speaker 4: the self naturally starts emerging or I should say re
Speaker 4: emerging consciously. Then what happens is if the identity or
Speaker 4: the ego identity is too rigid, it presents itself every
Speaker 4: effort for the psyche to reconnect again. You know, we're
Speaker 4: talking about recollection, We're talking about reconnection. It presents itself
Speaker 4: in modern day as symptoms. So during Freud's era, there
Speaker 4: are particular types of symptoms that were presented. Today we
Speaker 4: see other kinds of symptoms. Everybody has anxiety, everybody has depression.
Speaker 4: You know, everybody's diagnosing themselves. But basically, what these symptoms
Speaker 4: are is the psyche's attempt to communicate to the you know,
Speaker 4: the egoic identity that there is something, there's a need
Speaker 4: for reconnection. And so what happens is people are oftentimes
Speaker 4: overwhelm home by these symptoms. They come in. If they're ignored,
Speaker 4: they present themselves physically after a while. This is what
Speaker 4: Freud called symptom compromises. In other words, what happened is,
Speaker 4: rather than coming up in direct awareness, it makes a
Speaker 4: compromise and it presents maybe as a chronic illness. And
Speaker 4: so we look at these symptoms, and you know, modern
Speaker 4: day medicine psychology oftentimes interprets these symptoms very concretely, and
Speaker 4: they try to address them. They try to ameliorate the symptoms.
Speaker 4: They try to treat the symptoms rather than understanding I
Speaker 4: think what Young understood, and I think what many mystics understand,
Speaker 4: which is this is the self's process of emergence and
Speaker 4: communication from a deeper layer to the psyche that maybe
Speaker 4: we don't understand very well, and it is attempting to
Speaker 4: integra r and to expand into consciousness. And if we
Speaker 4: don't have methodologies to midwife this expansion. In this integration,
Speaker 4: what happens is it stays very much at the symptomatic level.
Speaker 4: It doesn't really begin to manifest as conscious change and transformation.
Speaker 3: So how can we help the next generations coming up,
Speaker 3: so they don't have to mirror the same path and
Speaker 3: the problems along the path, the challenges. Is there a
Speaker 3: way to kind of work around these things? Can we
Speaker 3: teach the kids today not to fall victim to you know,
Speaker 3: they need, they need to be part of the culture.
Speaker 3: But you know, there's a little saying like, you watch
Speaker 3: too much news. If you don't watch the news, you're uninformed.
Speaker 3: If you watch the news, you're misinformed. So how do
Speaker 3: how do we teach our young people to be able
Speaker 3: to come up in a way that's different than what
Speaker 3: we didn't be able to kind of identify who they
Speaker 3: are and what's important at an earlier stage versus of
Speaker 3: the boomers. Now some of them don't don't even get
Speaker 3: it now because they're still I mean, listen, some people
Speaker 3: can still enjoy working their traditional corporate jobs in their seventies.
Speaker 3: They like to do that. That's fine, But it seems
Speaker 3: to be more than that. It seems to be a
Speaker 3: self identifier.
Speaker 4: Well, do you mind if I go deeper than the question?
Speaker 5: Sure?
Speaker 4: Is that? Okay? Yeah? Absolutely?
Speaker 6: So?
Speaker 4: You know we are we're entering what some would call
Speaker 4: a second axial age. Okay, the first axial Age was
Speaker 4: twenty five hundred years ago. We're actually entering the second
Speaker 4: Axial Age. And what this is is it's an ascension phase, okay,
Speaker 4: what we're talking about with emergence, and so it requires
Speaker 4: a different model, a different way of thinking. And so
Speaker 4: what I would say about this about this time is
Speaker 4: it's a little bit like changing you know, Copernicus's view
Speaker 4: that you know, the Sun revolved around the Earth, you know,
Speaker 4: in the Galileo took forward, you know, and shifting the
Speaker 4: heliocentric view. And I think in some ways we have
Speaker 4: a kind of an egocentric view psychology, you know, psychology
Speaker 4: has been you know, it's it's starts at the ego
Speaker 4: and it works down. So it's we we begin there.
Speaker 4: We we need a view that's more self centric, okay.
Speaker 4: And so I think the axual the second axial age
Speaker 4: is bringing us into a you know, kind of a
Speaker 4: new myth you know, which you don't called the myth
Speaker 4: of individuation, which is a more self involved view. And
Speaker 4: that our process is is not just to support the ego.
Speaker 4: It's not just to continue to do what we can
Speaker 4: to you know, to augment our coping with with many
Speaker 4: you know, toxic conditions that we're in. But to actually
Speaker 4: begin to use technologies they connect us directly with self
Speaker 4: and nurture, encourage and midwife this integration. And there's a
Speaker 4: lot that's going on in that regard. But again it
Speaker 4: requires a new model, a new kind of psychology, and
Speaker 4: a new kind of thinking. And so I think we're
Speaker 4: even going beyond the Jungian thinking. You know, we've we've
Speaker 4: had excuse me, we've seen trans personal psychology emerge, which
Speaker 4: goes even further beyond young into what some people call
Speaker 4: the unitive dimension. We see integrative or psychedelic integrated psychotherapy
Speaker 4: that's emerging is a very very powerful force in both
Speaker 4: both healing, awakening and therapy. And within the frame of
Speaker 4: what some people would call depth psychotherapy, we're also seeing,
Speaker 4: you know, what some would call, you know, quantum approaches,
Speaker 4: because there are many that believe that the self or
Speaker 4: the unitary dimension is actually a quantum dimension. It operates
Speaker 4: on a very different physics than the ego, you know,
Speaker 4: I mean, from my point of view, the ego and
Speaker 4: the way we think about it operates much more from
Speaker 4: the old Newtonian model, which is a deterministic, very linear model,
Speaker 4: as you move into the union model. And this is
Speaker 4: something that your viewers may find very interesting is that
Speaker 4: Jung was actually a contemporary of Einstein and Wolfgang Pauli,
Speaker 4: and he used to have dinners with Einstein, and this
Speaker 4: was between two thousand or nineteen hundred and eight and
Speaker 4: nineteen hundred and twelve, and they would talk a great
Speaker 4: deal about the theory of relativity and its relationship to
Speaker 4: what he called synchronicity. And synchronicity from the Jungian view,
Speaker 4: is really looking at the causal relationship, but he called
Speaker 4: it a causal, not causal, the relationship between consciousness and matter.
Speaker 4: And this is what the physicists are talking about with
Speaker 4: quantum entanglement at this point. So you're seeing quantum therapies,
Speaker 4: you know, the regression hypnotherapies that are connecting people on
Speaker 4: deep levels with this quantum field. You know, it's very
Speaker 4: similar to the psychedelic therapies. There's energy, body work. There's
Speaker 4: a lot of different approaches that are coming into the
Speaker 4: clinical field that I use very integratively in my practice.
Speaker 4: I have a village of practitioners that I bring in
Speaker 4: to assist me in opening up this quantum field and
Speaker 4: then helping me to do the integration in a psychotherapeutic process.
Speaker 4: So it's a different model of thinking.
Speaker 3: That's fantastic. Okay, my special guest once again, doctor Kenneth
Speaker 3: Lackritz the book Remembering Self. So in the book you
Speaker 3: blend spirituality, psychology, mythology, and personal development. Why was important
Speaker 3: to kind of bridge all those.
Speaker 4: Worlds because all of those worlds are the psyche. You know,
Speaker 4: I think what we've done is we've artificially separated them
Speaker 4: into metaphysics, and you know, in physics and psychology and
Speaker 4: metapsychology and spiritual psychology, they're not separate. They are just
Speaker 4: different fields of consciousness. And one of the great unions,
Speaker 4: Eric Neuman, who was a protegee of Ewing's, looked at
Speaker 4: the psyche as encompassing three basic fields. And one field
Speaker 4: is the physical reality field, the other the archetypal field,
Speaker 4: and the third the unitary reality field. Now what happens is,
Speaker 4: you know, as we go back to what I was
Speaker 4: discussing earlier in the first half of life, is all
Speaker 4: of these fields become separated, they become differentiated, and we
Speaker 4: become actually alienated from the archetypal and the unitary reality field,
Speaker 4: but they're all part of the of the psyche. There's
Speaker 4: nothing that isn't self. There's nothing that isn't psyche. But
Speaker 4: we think we are in the physical reality field, and
Speaker 4: we think that's us, and we think that's the endpoint. Okay,
Speaker 4: So this book brings into a unified model and a
Speaker 4: unified way of thinking all of the fields in a
Speaker 4: way that hopefully talks about it as just differentiated parts
Speaker 4: of the oneness, the unity. And so I felt it
Speaker 4: was extremely important to show how during the lifespan this
Speaker 4: unfolds and then in the second half of life, how
Speaker 4: it starts to come back together again. You see, we
Speaker 4: dlink or we never dlink. Let me correct it. We're
Speaker 4: always linked. We're just unconsciously linked. And then the second
Speaker 4: half of life we have an opportunity to consciously relink.
Speaker 4: And this is an incredibly important part of the unfolding.
Speaker 4: During the seasons of life and the lifespan, these are
Speaker 4: the opportunities in windows that open up.
Speaker 3: Now in the book, you talk about four stages of
Speaker 3: life and the importance of versus eldering, versus aging, and
Speaker 3: I think that's very relevant for a lot of our
Speaker 3: boomer audience out there and a lot of people like
Speaker 3: myself or yourself or like my friends, who are some
Speaker 3: of them are still working, some of them aren't, and
Speaker 3: I think they're all wrestling with Is that all there is?
Speaker 3: Talk to us about how the book addresses this target group,
Speaker 3: if you will, and how they can navigate some of
Speaker 3: these challenges in Layman's terms, what can then the boomers today?
Speaker 4: Okay, So now now we get into Layman's terms, so
Speaker 4: you know, and an elder is someone that is connected
Speaker 4: with who they are, okay, who knows the ground of
Speaker 4: who they are, who has remembered and relinked, and they
Speaker 4: can become a lighthouse to others who are searching for
Speaker 4: this path. And they can also become initiators and midwives.
Speaker 4: And so the eldering role is an incredibly important role
Speaker 4: to welcome others who are seeking transformation into deeper and
Speaker 4: more integrated ways of being. Does that make sense? Yes? Absolutely,
Speaker 4: And it's different than an older and older is someone
Speaker 4: who is still identified with their pre mid life identity
Speaker 4: and they are they're the ones that maybe never retire,
Speaker 4: that never want to give up. It's like the myth
Speaker 4: of Sissyphus where he refuses to die, and so he
Speaker 4: puts death in jail and then ends up rolling the
Speaker 4: rock up and down the hill for all eternity, which
Speaker 4: is basically a way of saying, I refuse to give
Speaker 4: up my ego identity.
Speaker 3: Now what happens to is some of these folks, I
Speaker 3: mean a lot of them. Maybe they you know, they
Speaker 3: they they're happy because they like what they're doing, and
Speaker 3: it just seems to me a little bit dysfunctional because
Speaker 3: these are narratives that we've been given. At a certain point,
Speaker 3: you don't have to do that anymore. They choose to
Speaker 3: go and do it again and again and again, and
Speaker 3: then at a certain point, I've got to think they're
Speaker 3: going to wake up and say, oh, there's all this
Speaker 3: other stuff. I remember when I was in my thirties,
Speaker 3: I was living in New York City and I actually
Speaker 3: had to beat between jobs and I had worked. I'd
Speaker 3: never not worked since I was like seven years old.
Speaker 3: I had a paper route, nine years old, paper out
Speaker 3: and I was outside one day. I was walking along
Speaker 3: the West Side and I couldn't believe how many people
Speaker 3: are outside. I'm like, how could these people not all
Speaker 3: be in offices. I've been in an office for like
Speaker 3: ten fifteen years straight now, and I couldn't believe it. Yet,
Speaker 3: there's a whole other world out there. How does that
Speaker 3: relate to this challenge that I think a lot of
Speaker 3: boomers have where some of them don't want to let
Speaker 3: go because of ego, and some of them don't want
Speaker 3: to let go because of fear and money issues or whatever,
Speaker 3: because they keep spending and they have the more and
Speaker 3: more expensive toys. I know, I have two different friends.
Speaker 3: One guy he loves to go to work, loves to
Speaker 3: put the tie on, feels really good. The other one
Speaker 3: likes to spend money, he likes his stuff, and he
Speaker 3: keeps working too. And I'm like, I watch them with
Speaker 3: love because I want the best outcome for both of them.
Speaker 3: But I'm sure that's a microcosm of so many other
Speaker 3: people out there. And then I have a lot of
Speaker 3: other folks that I know that have kind of their
Speaker 3: semi retired or retired whatever, and they seemed a little
Speaker 3: more at peace with themselves.
Speaker 4: Well, you, you and I are old enough to see
Speaker 4: to have noticed how much longer people are living. Yeah,
Speaker 4: you know, you look back even forty years ago, people
Speaker 4: were old in their sixties you know, it's sixty now.
Speaker 4: You and I you're in your seventies. I'm sixty eight.
Speaker 4: We don't think of it as old. Okay. So at
Speaker 4: the beginning of the twentieth century, the average lifespan was
Speaker 4: like forty. So what happened is, you know, the model
Speaker 4: for life was a forty year life. You know, all
Speaker 4: the Hindu stages of student, householder, forrest elder, that was
Speaker 4: all done in thirty or forty years. Now what's happening
Speaker 4: is it's spread out over eighty or ninety years. But
Speaker 4: there's no model for the second half of life, especially
Speaker 4: in the Western culture. There's you know, where do you
Speaker 4: find models for transitioning into elderhood. Maybe in India there is,
Speaker 4: you know, there are other places where people perhaps live
Speaker 4: longer and have these models, but we don't.
Speaker 3: Right, and the society and the culture doesn't support it either.
Speaker 4: The culture doesn't support it.
Speaker 3: Don't want like get out of the way. They're not
Speaker 3: saying be a lighthouse. They're like to train your replacement.
Speaker 3: And then here here's a package.
Speaker 4: Please, Well, you're saying, get out of the way and
Speaker 4: get a facelift, right, you know, find a way to
Speaker 4: to look like you're still in the game. But the
Speaker 4: thing is, in the second half of life, there's another game,
Speaker 4: and most people don't know about it, and society at
Speaker 4: large does not value it. And so I think people
Speaker 4: find themselves. Why would they want to move into a
Speaker 4: stage of life where people are visible, you know, where
Speaker 4: they feel devalued and they feel like there's no meaning
Speaker 4: and nothing to do. You know, there's a there's of
Speaker 4: importance in contribution.
Speaker 3: Now you work with a lot of boomers. I think
Speaker 3: I recall that from one of our conversations in general terms,
Speaker 3: directionally speaking, what are what do they come to you with?
Speaker 3: Is it what type of issues do they have? If
Speaker 3: obviously everybody's different, but there's some universals there that you know,
Speaker 3: the boomers are going to come to you with.
Speaker 4: What do you notice, Well, you know it depends on
Speaker 4: the boomer, okay, but but I think that you know,
Speaker 4: as themes, what I see in midlife are people feeling
Speaker 4: like the things that used to have meaning no longer
Speaker 4: have meaning, The things that used to have juice no
Speaker 4: longer have juice. Am I depressed? You know, I'm anxious,
Speaker 4: I'm feeling a loss of motivation. You know, what's going
Speaker 4: on and so, and I think that so many people
Speaker 4: think of it as depression and they don't realize that
Speaker 4: they're in a normal process of development and all of
Speaker 4: their symptoms are actually a sign of this transition and
Speaker 4: what I consider to be a potential for transformation. But
Speaker 4: what happens is what people from a psychiatric point of view,
Speaker 4: people are oftentimes, you know, this is when they start
Speaker 4: going on any depressants, people start drinking more, you know,
Speaker 4: they start masking what I call the emergence more and
Speaker 4: they're in a liminal space, which means they're in a
Speaker 4: transitional space from one state of being to another state
Speaker 4: of being. That can take as long as ten years
Speaker 4: from many people, and so it can be a period
Speaker 4: of suffering. Your sense of reality and your sense of
Speaker 4: meaning in life is completely shattering and breaking down. But
Speaker 4: you have no understanding, first of all, of the process
Speaker 4: and second of all where it's taking you. And so
Speaker 4: as a therapist, if I am not further on the
Speaker 4: other side of that and understand what the process is
Speaker 4: and where it's taking us, and then I'm of no
Speaker 4: use to that person, and I'm more likely to buy
Speaker 4: into the you know, the cultural and medical model that
Speaker 4: you're depressed. Let's give you some therapies for depression. Let's
Speaker 4: support your ego, let's pull you out of it, Let's
Speaker 4: get you in this and that and the other thing,
Speaker 4: without really attending to what is happening at the sole level.
Speaker 4: And so it's very important to begin to articulate that
Speaker 4: to this group so that they understand the nature and
Speaker 4: meaning of what we think of as symptoms.
Speaker 3: Now, you also mentioned shadow work, and that's something that
Speaker 3: I don't think everybody understands really what shadow work is
Speaker 3: and why it's important, particularly for and people entering the
Speaker 3: eldering stages.
Speaker 4: So what is shadow You know, shadow is anything that
Speaker 4: is not acceptable to the consciousness of the psyche or
Speaker 4: to our alignes with our sense of who we are.
Speaker 4: So naturally what happens is anything that's not culturally aligned,
Speaker 4: personally aligned. It gets pushed against, either suppressed or repressed
Speaker 4: into the unconscious. And so what happens again, you know,
Speaker 4: the soul wants to be whole, and so naturally the
Speaker 4: shadow material emerges at midlife and it kind of smacks
Speaker 4: us right in the face. You know, we find ourselves
Speaker 4: very much in the in the mud, in the swamp
Speaker 4: of all of the issues that have been segregated off, dissociated, abandoned, rejected,
Speaker 4: and the shadow wants consciousness, it wants acceptance, it wants reintegration.
Speaker 4: And so when we talk about shadow work, what we're
Speaker 4: talking about is is finding a relationship with all of
Speaker 4: the of ourselves, again going back to that model of
Speaker 4: the unitary psyche, all the dimensions of ourselves that want
Speaker 4: to be known, They want to be conscious, they want
Speaker 4: to be reintegrated, and they want to be received with love,
Speaker 4: you know. And so if we are not in a
Speaker 4: deep relationship with self, which is also a deep relationship
Speaker 4: with love, which is the foundation of who we are,
Speaker 4: it's very difficult to receive all of these abandoned elements
Speaker 4: of ourselves. So that's part of what we want to
Speaker 4: encourage in shadow work. And what is shadow to one
Speaker 4: person may be something fully acceptable to another person. And
Speaker 4: so to do this work, we have to find a
Speaker 4: way to be accepting and compassionate with all aspects of
Speaker 4: our being.
Speaker 3: You also in the book Doctor talk about the difference
Speaker 3: and the importance of building conscious partnerships versus romantic relationships.
Speaker 3: I do a lot of shows and they're all about
Speaker 3: people over fifty dating and looking for relationships, and there
Speaker 3: it's like I can't believe, like people still don't know
Speaker 3: how to date, but they they struggle with it, and
Speaker 3: you know, we try to do everything we can on
Speaker 3: the shows I Guessed on to help them. And you
Speaker 3: would think, wow, wow, you know, because people make they
Speaker 3: attract the same type of partners who were wrong for
Speaker 3: them over and over again. And they, you know, they're
Speaker 3: looking for the romance. And at a certain point, maybe
Speaker 3: it's not about romance. Maybe it's about compatibility in a
Speaker 3: lot of different areas. So how do you discuss that
Speaker 3: in your book?
Speaker 4: Doctor, We are in the first half of life driven.
Speaker 4: You know, our patterns are generally generated by early conditioning,
Speaker 4: and the early conditioning is familial, and we are replicating
Speaker 4: the patterns that that we grew up with, replicating the
Speaker 4: patterns of our parents, and so we're basically in an
Speaker 4: unconscious relationship with our relationships. And so awakening to who
Speaker 4: we are allows us to begin to mediate, and it
Speaker 4: allows us to actually choose ways of being that are
Speaker 4: not dictated by default by our conditioning. And so again
Speaker 4: going back to the notion of individuation, which is becoming
Speaker 4: a whole. You know, oftentimes what we do is we're
Speaker 4: looking for someone who completes us, so we may be
Speaker 4: half of a whole, all right. And in early relationships,
Speaker 4: what happens is we go through an individuation process where
Speaker 4: we start becoming a whole together. But many people aren't
Speaker 4: able to do that in their marriage, in their relationships,
Speaker 4: and so they find sometimes post divorce that they are
Speaker 4: doing their own personal individuation work and they're coming back
Speaker 4: and they want to be two holes in relationship rather
Speaker 4: than two halves becoming a whole. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 4: And so and these are conscious and awake relationships where
Speaker 4: people are actually buildings dynamics together consciously, they're choosing how
Speaker 4: they want to relate with each other rather than by
Speaker 4: default relating in terms of unconscious condition patterns. Does that
Speaker 4: make sense?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, correct me if they're wrong. I always
Speaker 3: say that each partner has to have their own life
Speaker 3: and then you have a separate thing when you bring
Speaker 3: the two together, and that's.
Speaker 4: Exactly that's really great.
Speaker 3: But depending on one person to define yourself is a mistake.
Speaker 3: And you know, the title of your book says it
Speaker 3: all remembering self, and it's to me everything I've learned
Speaker 3: about spirituality from all the thought leaders I've spoken to
Speaker 3: over the years, including yourself, which I think you've done
Speaker 3: a masterful job with. It is about rediscovering who we are,
Speaker 3: not looking externally for an answer, and that sometime is
Speaker 3: the biggest challenge that people have because they want to
Speaker 3: look out there and they don't want to look within,
Speaker 3: and they don't want to rediscover who they are. They
Speaker 3: don't realize that they are the answer.
Speaker 4: You know what. What's so, what's so important about what
Speaker 4: you're saying is that you know, when we're born, we
Speaker 4: would not survive without the love from the other. So
Speaker 4: we we through most through the first half of our life,
Speaker 4: we see the other as the source of this love.
Speaker 4: And that's that's the fundamental mistake that we make, because
Speaker 4: we start to realize over time that the other does
Speaker 4: not hold the key. The other may open up a
Speaker 4: door to ourselves, but they actually don't hold the key.
Speaker 4: And as long as we're still relying on what I
Speaker 4: call these horizontal ways of connecting, than what we're doing
Speaker 4: is we're making the fundamental mistake of holding the other
Speaker 4: person as responsible for our needs rather than us vertically
Speaker 4: and This is the vertical relationship. Realizing that all the
Speaker 4: resources live within us. But until we remember all these pieces,
Speaker 4: we don't have the connections necessary to be whole, and
Speaker 4: so we still keep relying on the other for that
Speaker 4: oxygen supply of love.
Speaker 3: Amazing and I've got to think that practices like meditation,
Speaker 3: and it could be you know, you sit to TM,
Speaker 3: or or you go for a walk, or you go
Speaker 3: for a swim, those are all forms of meditation. But
Speaker 3: trying to find the quiet times where you can give
Speaker 3: yourself the opportunity to go inside must be incredibly important
Speaker 3: because we live in a very noisy world and people
Speaker 3: who were around a couple hundred years ago they didn't
Speaker 3: have to deal with the noise that we have to
Speaker 3: deal with.
Speaker 4: I think that that's apps true. You're creating spaces for
Speaker 4: ourselves to even listen into the subtlety, because the self
Speaker 4: is very subtle and if we are not quiet, we
Speaker 4: can't hear it, we can't listen into it, we can't
Speaker 4: feel it. And I think meditation is one of the
Speaker 4: best ways of not only creating a quiet space, but
Speaker 4: quieting the mind enough to be able to perceive and
Speaker 4: experience the subtlety being. And so I can't think of
Speaker 4: a better doorway into this process than meditation.
Speaker 3: Okay, we're getting towards the end of the show, and
Speaker 3: you've done such a wonderful job with this book, Elder
Speaker 3: and Guidance. What are some of the maybe three tips
Speaker 3: that our audience can start to implement right away to
Speaker 3: get themselves in a position to be able to make
Speaker 3: the best of the remaining time that they have and
Speaker 3: making those golden years the best years of their lives,
Speaker 3: which can very well could be. You know, you think
Speaker 3: about it. If you retire, let's say, quote unquote at sixty,
Speaker 3: and you're healthy, you're blessed to be healthy. You could
Speaker 3: live another thirty years no problem, and you're free hopefully
Speaker 3: if you've done some good moves financially and you're in
Speaker 3: that type of space, that those could be the most freeing,
Speaker 3: best years of your life.
Speaker 4: You know. I think Number one, we need to know
Speaker 4: that we have a self, Okay, and I think a
Speaker 4: lot of people don't know that there is a self,
Speaker 4: you know, beneath all of the layers of persona, an
Speaker 4: ego identity. We have to know that we have to
Speaker 4: work toward relinking and there are many ways to do that. There. Again,
Speaker 4: there's psychotherapy, and I think that during midlife, if we
Speaker 4: are not in some kind of a transformational process, it's
Speaker 4: a very difficult thing to do. That's our kind of
Speaker 4: modern day mechanism for doing that, meditation, retreats, psychedelic assisted psychotherapy.
Speaker 4: Just there's a number of different different approaches to this
Speaker 4: and understanding that we're in a universal process that underfolds
Speaker 4: in a relatively predictable way, and I think most people
Speaker 4: don't realize that we're in that process. So we have
Speaker 4: to awaken to the fact. And that's what the labyrinth
Speaker 4: is about. There. It shows that we're we're as we
Speaker 4: go through the seasons, we're in a universal process, and
Speaker 4: as we begin to awaken to that, we start to
Speaker 4: understand that there are different phases that we go through
Speaker 4: that have particular tasks that begin to open up. And again,
Speaker 4: if the culture doesn't have support for those tasks, then
Speaker 4: we need to sometimes look outside of the culture or
Speaker 4: to look and I think that's why people come to
Speaker 4: unions and transpersonal psychologists and to Reyki practitioners and et cetera,
Speaker 4: is to look for other models that support these these
Speaker 4: deepening dimensions. And I think particularly in the Yogic realm,
Speaker 4: they you know, they have models who are looking at
Speaker 4: what the eldering is about, and they refer to elders
Speaker 4: as sanyasis, and so there is actually a sanyasi phase
Speaker 4: Okay in the Hindu culture.
Speaker 3: All right, great conversation again, remembering self, Kenneth R. Lakritz, PhD.
Speaker 3: Where can people find your book and learn more about
Speaker 3: you quickly?
Speaker 4: You can find my book on Amazon and Barnes and Noble,
Speaker 4: and you can find it on my website at doctor
Speaker 4: Kenneth R. Lacret's PhD.
Speaker 3: Fancastic, great job, Thank you for being on Guys Guys Radio.
Speaker 3: A lot of the best of luck with the book
Speaker 3: and the work you're doing, which is so important. Thank you.
Speaker 4: You're quite welcome and it's it's always a pleasure to
Speaker 4: see you.
Speaker 3: Hope to see you again.
Speaker 4: I hope to see you again too.
Speaker 2: It's Guys guy Radio.
Speaker 3: Okay, what a fascinating conversation with doctor Lacrates, Doctor ken
Speaker 3: about really aging and we talked about so many different
Speaker 3: subjects today, but it's all about how we can kind
Speaker 3: of really figure out who we are before it's too late.
Speaker 3: And there's some of the practices about individuation and shadow
Speaker 3: work and meditation and all the things that help us
Speaker 3: get to a point where instead of just getting old,
Speaker 3: we've become eldering, and we've become beacons of information and
Speaker 3: teaching and education for the next generation is coming along.
Speaker 3: But we're not just tossed aside. As you know, our
Speaker 3: culture kind of has a narrative where they assign us
Speaker 3: roles at certain ages, and pretty much at a certain
Speaker 3: point they say, okay, time for you to move over.
Speaker 3: But with people living longer and longer lives, it doesn't
Speaker 3: the model doesn't work. The framework has to change. Putting
Speaker 3: that aside. It's all about going inside and really rediscovering
Speaker 3: who you are. And you can't let the external tell
Speaker 3: you who you are. You've got to go inside to
Speaker 3: figure out who you are. So with doctor Ken, we
Speaker 3: talked about young in psychology. We talked about individuation, shadow work, eldering,
Speaker 3: how to transform really from romantic relationships into more conscious partnering.
Speaker 3: We talked about ego, how ego can be our friend
Speaker 3: and our foe, and so much more. Just a lot
Speaker 3: of stuff at different stages of life and a lot
Speaker 3: of It is guidance as to how we can begin
Speaker 3: the process of going inside to really fully realize who
Speaker 3: we've always been. And that's what doctor Ken's work in
Speaker 3: his book is all about. So I've did my best
Speaker 3: to kind of bring this thing to a framework where
Speaker 3: everybody could understand and relate to some of these concepts,
Speaker 3: because when you get into Youngian psychology, there's a there's
Speaker 3: a lot to chew on. So I hope you enjoyed
Speaker 3: our conversation. I think doctor Ken's terrific. He's doing great work,
Speaker 3: So check out his book Remembering Self. Ken Lacretz, thank
Speaker 3: you for listening to Guys Guys Radio. We'll be back
Speaker 3: next week with a brand new episode. And until then,
Speaker 3: like I always say, guys guys, finish first.
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