WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.039 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.160 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.519 written about them. Gaesy Bundy Dahmer The Nightstalker VTK. Every 4 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:25.280 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.879 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 6 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:32.719 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 7 00:00:39.159 --> 00:00:44.799 Good evening. When Wayne Adam Ford walked into the Humboldt 8 00:00:44.799 --> 00:00:48.240 County Sheriff's office in November nineteen ninety eight with a 9 00:00:48.280 --> 00:00:52.600 woman's body part in his jacket pocket, the thirty six 10 00:00:52.679 --> 00:00:56.200 year old truck driver wasn't a suspect in any crime. 11 00:00:57.719 --> 00:01:01.960 After a lengthy investigation spanning four California counties and a 12 00:01:02.079 --> 00:01:06.599 sensational trial, he was convicted of the torture and murder 13 00:01:06.719 --> 00:01:11.480 of four women. His first victim, whom he dismembered, would 14 00:01:11.560 --> 00:01:17.239 remain unidentified for twenty five years. While serving honorably in 15 00:01:17.280 --> 00:01:21.280 the Marine Corps, Ford had learned life saving techniques that 16 00:01:21.439 --> 00:01:25.879 gave him structure and purpose, but a severe head injury 17 00:01:25.959 --> 00:01:31.359 worsened pre existing emotional problems, rendering him unable to suppress 18 00:01:31.599 --> 00:01:37.040 his dark sexual impulses. Knowing he would kill again, he 19 00:01:37.159 --> 00:01:43.239 enlisted his brother's help to turn himself in. Award winning 20 00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:48.480 investigative journalist Caitlin Rother drew on previously sealed testimony and 21 00:01:48.560 --> 00:01:53.680 interviewed key players in the case, including Ford's brother and father, 22 00:01:54.120 --> 00:02:01.439 to write this intimate and psychologically resonant narrative, extensively updated 23 00:02:01.560 --> 00:02:05.799 with the inside details of how Ford's first victim, Carrie 24 00:02:05.840 --> 00:02:12.280 Ann Cummings, was recently identified through DNA testing and forensic genealogy. 25 00:02:12.439 --> 00:02:18.879 This classic true crime story continues to haunt us. The 26 00:02:18.919 --> 00:02:22.759 book they were featuring this evening is Body Parts, a 27 00:02:22.960 --> 00:02:28.840 Serial Killer's Deadly Compulsions, Updated edition, with my special guest, 28 00:02:29.520 --> 00:02:35.960 journalist and best selling author, Caitlin Rother. Welcome back to 29 00:02:36.000 --> 00:02:38.319 the program, and thank you very much for this interview. 30 00:02:38.719 --> 00:02:43.159 Kitlyn Rother, good to be here. Thank you so much, 31 00:02:43.159 --> 00:02:47.759 and congratulations on this new updated edition of Body Parts. 32 00:02:48.240 --> 00:02:54.520 Thank you. Now. First off, let's talk about what Body 33 00:02:54.599 --> 00:02:58.240 Parts is tell us when it was first published and 34 00:02:58.560 --> 00:03:02.199 why you wanted to write about this case. 35 00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:05.919 Well, I don't know if I mentioned this last time 36 00:03:05.960 --> 00:03:08.240 we talked about this book since it's a re release, 37 00:03:08.520 --> 00:03:11.919 but I actually wanted to call this book killer with 38 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:18.879 a Conscience and that's because this this killer weighne adam Ford. 39 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:22.080 It was a long haul trucker who is on death 40 00:03:22.159 --> 00:03:28.080 row for raping, torturing, and killing troubled women, mostly prostitutes, 41 00:03:29.000 --> 00:03:30.960 drug addicts. He would pick up on the side of 42 00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:34.000 the road or in you know, at a truck stop, 43 00:03:34.080 --> 00:03:39.520 places like that. And these were women who were you know, 44 00:03:39.879 --> 00:03:43.759 not quite right in the head sometimes also, so they 45 00:03:43.800 --> 00:03:46.719 were vulnerable. They were vulnerable women. Now, so that's not 46 00:03:46.719 --> 00:03:49.360 that unusual for a serial killer. But what's unusual, and 47 00:03:49.400 --> 00:03:52.960 the reason we decided to write about this story is 48 00:03:53.000 --> 00:03:56.879 that he turned himself in. So he killed four women. 49 00:03:57.360 --> 00:04:01.039 He dismembered two of them. He picked them up and 50 00:04:01.479 --> 00:04:05.039 he would have sex with them in his truck. And 51 00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:08.400 you know, even though they're prostitutes, they did not sign 52 00:04:08.520 --> 00:04:11.240 up for the kind of sex that he proceeded to 53 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:13.599 have with them. So I don't want to go too 54 00:04:13.639 --> 00:04:16.199 much into details because it's pretty gross and it's pretty graphic, 55 00:04:16.199 --> 00:04:17.160 and it's pretty violent. 56 00:04:17.439 --> 00:04:18.839 But he would. 57 00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:23.800 Torture them and he would choke them until they passed out. 58 00:04:23.839 --> 00:04:27.560 So he would press his fingers against their crotted artery 59 00:04:27.560 --> 00:04:30.759 and their neck, so cutting off the oxygen to their brain. 60 00:04:31.240 --> 00:04:33.680 And they would pass out and he would bring them 61 00:04:33.680 --> 00:04:36.319 back with CPR and he would do this repeatedly. So 62 00:04:36.399 --> 00:04:39.680 I can't even imagine how horrific that must have been 63 00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:43.319 for these women. And we know that this is what 64 00:04:43.360 --> 00:04:45.800 he did because he let one of them go and 65 00:04:46.079 --> 00:04:48.439 she testified against him at the trial, and she was 66 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:54.360 a prostitute. So you know, he's a pretty complicated guy. 67 00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:59.240 And I you know, he's got mental disorders, a number 68 00:04:59.279 --> 00:05:02.519 of them. He's just a he's a different kind of 69 00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:05.199 a different kind of a person that I normally would 70 00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:05.600 write about. 71 00:05:05.639 --> 00:05:07.399 And I don't plan to write. 72 00:05:07.160 --> 00:05:10.439 Another book like this because it was very difficult for me, 73 00:05:10.839 --> 00:05:15.000 very very dark. But I wrote about him because I 74 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:17.360 don't know if any other serial killer who turned himself 75 00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:19.160 in because he knew he would kill again, and he 76 00:05:19.240 --> 00:05:21.560 knew it was wrong, and he was even disgusted by 77 00:05:21.560 --> 00:05:25.879 his own behavior. So that's that's basically why I wrote 78 00:05:25.879 --> 00:05:29.839 about it. But Body Parts was the title that my 79 00:05:29.879 --> 00:05:32.920 publisher came up with. I thought it was insensitive to 80 00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:36.600 the victims' families, but they said, well, this is what 81 00:05:36.600 --> 00:05:39.079 we're going to call it, and our marketing people know best, 82 00:05:39.160 --> 00:05:43.639 and they even put on the very front cover years ago, 83 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:47.519 and he kept them in his pocket, and I just 84 00:05:48.199 --> 00:05:49.279 that kind of horrified me. 85 00:05:49.439 --> 00:05:51.519 So if anybody bought the book way back when and 86 00:05:51.560 --> 00:05:53.920 they saw that on the cover, that was not my 87 00:05:54.040 --> 00:05:56.199 idea he did. 88 00:05:56.360 --> 00:05:58.519 He turned himself in with a woman's breast in his 89 00:05:58.639 --> 00:06:01.040 jacket pocket. But I I want to make light of that. 90 00:06:01.240 --> 00:06:03.879 You know, it's very serious, and it's he did that 91 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:08.720 because he wanted them to believe him, apparently credibility purposes. 92 00:06:09.639 --> 00:06:13.759 Now you talked about that he had obvious or diagnosed 93 00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:18.759 mental illness. Was that an issue at trial? And what 94 00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:22.480 was that eventual verdict at trial? And what was his 95 00:06:22.920 --> 00:06:26.720 disposition and status after that verdict? 96 00:06:27.480 --> 00:06:29.800 Well, can we go back, because I think it's more 97 00:06:29.839 --> 00:06:33.480 pertinent to talk about what he was like when he 98 00:06:33.519 --> 00:06:37.360 turned himself in because the trial took something like ten years. 99 00:06:37.720 --> 00:06:40.519 So by the time he got to trial, he was 100 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:43.199 you know, in prison, and he had been treated, you know, 101 00:06:43.240 --> 00:06:47.319 with medication and stuff. So he when he turned himself in, 102 00:06:47.879 --> 00:06:50.600 he was a mess. And I have a booking video 103 00:06:50.839 --> 00:06:54.439 where he's basically just in tears and he's crying, and 104 00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:58.920 I have the audio interviews of him being interviewed by 105 00:06:59.279 --> 00:07:03.279 detectives four different counties where he dumped these women's bodies and. 106 00:07:03.680 --> 00:07:04.560 Bodies of water. 107 00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:11.279 And he doesn't remember things, he can't focus on details. 108 00:07:11.319 --> 00:07:15.920 He gets women confused. So he's got a. 109 00:07:15.959 --> 00:07:19.639 Number of victims, but he's had sex like this, he says, 110 00:07:19.879 --> 00:07:23.439 with at least fifty women, so he can't even keep 111 00:07:23.480 --> 00:07:27.519 the details straight. So, and he also did not have 112 00:07:27.560 --> 00:07:30.759 an attorney present while he was being interviewed, even though 113 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:31.759 he asked for one. 114 00:07:31.959 --> 00:07:33.279 So all of those. 115 00:07:33.079 --> 00:07:36.800 Issues became issues, which made it take so long to 116 00:07:36.839 --> 00:07:38.959 get to trial. So I just want to point that out, 117 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:41.480 so that by the time it got to trial, it 118 00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:45.639 had already been litigated. Some of these witness interviews, I'm sorry, 119 00:07:45.639 --> 00:07:49.120 some of these detective interviews with him had been thrown 120 00:07:49.160 --> 00:07:52.920 out already because the judge said, well, he asked for 121 00:07:52.959 --> 00:07:56.000 an attorney, and you didn't. You didn't give him one, 122 00:07:56.079 --> 00:07:58.360 and that gets an attorney even showed up at the 123 00:07:58.399 --> 00:08:00.600 jail and they said, oh, you can't go in there 124 00:08:00.600 --> 00:08:03.800 because he's being interviewed by detectives. I mean, the whole 125 00:08:03.839 --> 00:08:04.600 thing was kind. 126 00:08:04.439 --> 00:08:05.199 Of a mess. 127 00:08:05.839 --> 00:08:09.560 So and it became clear, you know, just for me 128 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:14.000 for reading through these interviews, which is really gross. 129 00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:16.680 You know, It's basically, he would stick pins in his 130 00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:19.199 wife's breasts. 131 00:08:19.319 --> 00:08:21.879 He would cut out holes in a sheet while they 132 00:08:21.879 --> 00:08:24.279 were having sex so that her breasts poked out and 133 00:08:24.279 --> 00:08:27.439 were exposed. And so you know when he turned himself 134 00:08:27.439 --> 00:08:29.480 in and he had a breast in his pocket, you know, 135 00:08:29.560 --> 00:08:36.559 that was just a manifestation of that focus on his victims. 136 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:42.440 He also you know, basic stuff like sexual sadism and masochism. 137 00:08:42.480 --> 00:08:46.000 He enjoyed hurting these women, and he also enjoyed hurting himself. 138 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:48.440 So I mean, the guy was really had a lot 139 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:52.320 of issues. He also had a serious head injury, which 140 00:08:52.840 --> 00:08:55.639 we can talk about more in detail, but basically, when 141 00:08:55.679 --> 00:08:59.759 he was nineteen years old, he was dating this woman 142 00:08:59.759 --> 00:09:02.600 who later married and she's the one who he stuck 143 00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:04.559 pins in and you know, had to. 144 00:09:04.840 --> 00:09:07.519 Do the sheet with the holes in the sheet and stuff. 145 00:09:08.200 --> 00:09:14.000 Basically, his personality changed and became even more bizarre after that. 146 00:09:14.480 --> 00:09:15.519 After that head. 147 00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:20.279 Injury, so you know, and basic depression, alcoholism, you know, 148 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:22.000 the basic stuff that a lot of people have. But 149 00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:25.799 all together, you know, he had a lot going on. 150 00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:30.080 He also had a genetic predisposition to some of this stuff. 151 00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:33.759 His mother was apparently bipolar. She tried to kill herself 152 00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:39.600 several times throughout her life with pills. She cut her 153 00:09:39.799 --> 00:09:43.320 wrist with a tunicn in front of her in front 154 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:47.600 of Ford's brother in the kitchen at the Army barracks 155 00:09:47.600 --> 00:09:51.399 when they were growing up. And she also told him 156 00:09:51.799 --> 00:09:55.159 that he was the product of rape. So, I mean 157 00:09:55.279 --> 00:09:58.320 all of those things combined. You have environmental factors, and 158 00:09:58.360 --> 00:10:02.360 you have genetic factors, you have this brain injury. I mean, 159 00:10:02.360 --> 00:10:06.279 he had so much going on that it's almost I'm 160 00:10:06.279 --> 00:10:07.080 not saying he's not. 161 00:10:07.080 --> 00:10:09.440 Responsible, but I'm just saying he had a lot to 162 00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:11.759 deal with. And this is you. 163 00:10:11.679 --> 00:10:15.360 Know, I wrote this book because I think it's important 164 00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:18.799 for people to understand, you know, what makes a sexual predator. 165 00:10:19.279 --> 00:10:20.840 These are the these are the elements. 166 00:10:22.679 --> 00:10:26.639 Let's get to what is new in this updated edition. 167 00:10:27.720 --> 00:10:30.360 How you say that it's in back in print as 168 00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:31.480 a trade paperback. 169 00:10:32.360 --> 00:10:35.679 Yeah, it came out originally as a mass market paperback. 170 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:39.080 In the old days, when these books went directly to 171 00:10:39.159 --> 00:10:41.799 mass market paperback, there was no hardcover, there was no 172 00:10:41.879 --> 00:10:45.240 trade paperback. So trade paperback is a bigger format paperback 173 00:10:45.320 --> 00:10:48.720 that they have these days that costs more. Prints bigger, 174 00:10:49.759 --> 00:10:53.240 they're heavier, easier to read, nicer to read, nicer paper 175 00:10:53.840 --> 00:10:56.360 So yeah, it came out originally as a mass market paperback, 176 00:10:57.200 --> 00:11:03.399 and the first cover was his face, and it came 177 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:07.799 from the booking photo the booking video actually, you know, 178 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:10.919 where he was crying and just kind of a mess. 179 00:11:10.960 --> 00:11:13.440 And I was saying to the publisher, you know, I 180 00:11:13.480 --> 00:11:18.320 really feel like this title is insulting to the you know, 181 00:11:18.360 --> 00:11:22.039 an offensive to and insensitive, mostly to the victims' families. 182 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:24.799 And I also feel like it's probably off putting to 183 00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:27.519 women who are going to be a big portion of 184 00:11:27.559 --> 00:11:30.720 the audience here. So I wish we could you do 185 00:11:30.799 --> 00:11:33.159 something different. So in twenty thirteen they came out with 186 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:36.919 a different cover which looked like a romance novel. It 187 00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:40.240 was just like, Okay, I don't know. I guess it's better, 188 00:11:40.279 --> 00:11:42.080 but I don't know what that it has to do 189 00:11:42.159 --> 00:11:45.440 with the book. So all these years later, here we are. 190 00:11:45.799 --> 00:11:51.799 I got a tip from someone who was the significant other, 191 00:11:52.039 --> 00:11:56.039 a person I had interviewed for the original edition when 192 00:11:56.879 --> 00:12:01.559 for its first victim was found. She was this was 193 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:05.399 the first victim was dismembered entirely. He cut her up 194 00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:08.840 in his bathtub, and he told detectives that he described 195 00:12:08.840 --> 00:12:11.840 it and he even told them where he put her parts, 196 00:12:11.960 --> 00:12:14.639 and he wanted to help identify her because she had 197 00:12:14.679 --> 00:12:19.559 never been identified. Her torso was what was found by 198 00:12:19.639 --> 00:12:22.600 a kayaker. And so this kayaker has since died. In 199 00:12:22.679 --> 00:12:26.039 his significant other messaged me and said, did you hear 200 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:32.360 that they identified that first victim whose torso my boyfriend 201 00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:36.639 found in the kayak? And so I went on to 202 00:12:36.919 --> 00:12:42.720 the Humbolt County Sheriff's Department website and found a news release. 203 00:12:43.720 --> 00:12:47.320 So the news release basically said that they'd identified his 204 00:12:47.320 --> 00:12:52.200 first victim as Carrie Anne Cummings through genetic genealogy, which 205 00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:54.600 is the thing now for cold cases. It's happening all 206 00:12:54.600 --> 00:12:58.080 over the country in these small sheriff's departments and big 207 00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:04.960 sheriff's departments. Basic, you know, using these consumer websites where 208 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:09.399 everybody's sending their DNA and that's how they're identifying missing 209 00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:12.799 people and you know human remains that you know, in 210 00:13:12.840 --> 00:13:16.080 this case, they never found her head. They found her 211 00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:18.679 arm and her torso and that's all they had. But 212 00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:25.159 they were able to through through genetic genealogy, find a cousin. 213 00:13:26.200 --> 00:13:31.360 So basically the way this worked is Carrie Ann Cummings. 214 00:13:32.200 --> 00:13:35.519 She was a twenty five year old young woman. She 215 00:13:35.960 --> 00:13:40.240 was again troubled, which is basically you know, and was 216 00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:45.679 using drugs. And when Ford described her, and I don't remember, 217 00:13:45.759 --> 00:13:48.039 to be honest, if this wasn't a documentary that he 218 00:13:48.120 --> 00:13:50.559 was interviewed for, or if this was to the detectives, 219 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:54.559 but he basically said, her brain wasn't focused, kind of 220 00:13:54.600 --> 00:13:58.440 like mine. So in other words, two birds of a feather, 221 00:13:58.559 --> 00:14:02.279 you know. He picked her up and they both, you know, 222 00:14:02.320 --> 00:14:05.879 their brains were not working properly. So he dug around 223 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:08.559 in her backpack, I guess found something he thought was heroin. 224 00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:13.240 He described that she had a can opener, which he 225 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:16.879 didn't think was very useful, and that he didn't think 226 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:20.159 she'd been out and about for very long on her 227 00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:22.159 own on the road, but he had picked her up hitchhiking. 228 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:23.960 She said, Hey, I want to go. I want to 229 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:26.159 go to the beach. Are you going that way? And 230 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:29.639 so he said he would take her, and according to 231 00:14:29.679 --> 00:14:33.320 her sister, she probably you know, voluntarily agreed to have 232 00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:35.320 sex with him. And then it took a turn, which 233 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:37.600 is apparently just the way he was, you know, he 234 00:14:37.639 --> 00:14:40.080 would pick up these women, and there are prostitutes, and 235 00:14:40.120 --> 00:14:41.759 they thought they were just going to go have sex 236 00:14:41.799 --> 00:14:44.559 and no, instead he would do all these horrible things 237 00:14:44.600 --> 00:14:48.919 to them. So anyway, so she disappeared, and years later 238 00:14:49.159 --> 00:14:52.519 Jeff Cummings her cousin, who was you know, much older. 239 00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:57.080 Obviously by then he and his sisters had been kind 240 00:14:57.080 --> 00:15:02.360 of experimenting, playing around with this genet genealogy already, and 241 00:15:02.440 --> 00:15:05.879 so he had already submitted his DNA to one of 242 00:15:05.879 --> 00:15:08.720 those basic sites. I can't remember which one. It was 243 00:15:08.840 --> 00:15:11.960 ancestry dot com or twenty three met it was one 244 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:16.600 of those, and he then submitted it to ged match, 245 00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:22.200 which is a specific website that is geared towards helping 246 00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:26.320 law enforcement solve crimes. So there was a big controversy 247 00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:29.799 when this first started happening, because, you know, the Golden 248 00:15:29.799 --> 00:15:32.720 State Killer, this is how they solved this murder. But 249 00:15:32.759 --> 00:15:35.799 they didn't have permission from people. They were basically these 250 00:15:35.799 --> 00:15:40.679 detectives were using these consumer websites without telling people that 251 00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:43.000 they were using in for law enforcement purposes. 252 00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:45.279 And so to eat a Match. 253 00:15:45.320 --> 00:15:51.600 Specifically instituted some policies and procedures where users would would 254 00:15:51.639 --> 00:15:55.480 basically agree to have their DNA used to help solve crimes. 255 00:15:55.480 --> 00:15:59.519 So he submitted his to that ged match, and when 256 00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:03.759 Humble County Sheriff's Department decided to open a cold case 257 00:16:03.879 --> 00:16:07.320 unit with a couple of part time detectives and a 258 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:12.559 forensic technician who went and got some training. They picked 259 00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:15.159 this case because at the time had been very high 260 00:16:15.159 --> 00:16:17.559 profile because when he turned himself in with a breast 261 00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:22.200 in his pocket, it made national news. And apparently his 262 00:16:22.279 --> 00:16:25.639 father was approached by Dan Rather and his producer and 263 00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:28.159 he turned him down and did not want to be interviewed. 264 00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:31.399 And so I felt very privileged to. 265 00:16:31.480 --> 00:16:34.240 Have the Ford's family agree to be interviewed by me 266 00:16:34.360 --> 00:16:36.399 because it was the first time they talked to any 267 00:16:36.519 --> 00:16:40.639 media or author or anything. So Jeff Cummins turns in 268 00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:46.159 his DNA and so when they go in and they 269 00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:48.759 tried to solve this case, they found the cousin and 270 00:16:48.759 --> 00:16:51.279 they're like, oh, look, we found somebody who's pretty close. 271 00:16:51.879 --> 00:16:53.519 So they called him up and they said, hey, do 272 00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:57.320 you have a missing relative and he said, yes, cousin. 273 00:16:57.960 --> 00:17:01.879 She went missing, you know, twenty five years ago. And 274 00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:06.079 so they said, well, does she have any closer relatives? 275 00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:09.799 You know, a mother, father, sister, you know sibling, and 276 00:17:09.839 --> 00:17:15.000 he said, yes, Kathy Cummings. So then the detective called 277 00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:18.039 and left a message on Kathy Cummings voicemail. Now this 278 00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:22.759 is something I'm really I really found rewarding about this project. 279 00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:27.119 He left a message on her voicemail basically saying he 280 00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:32.160 was calling from the Sheriff's department in Eureka. And so 281 00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:35.920 before she called him back, she started googling, because she said, 282 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:38.559 I bet this is about my sister. And so she 283 00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:43.359 started googling Eureka and missing people and blah blah blah, 284 00:17:43.480 --> 00:17:45.000 and the next thing, you know, she found my book. 285 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:46.759 She found a bunch of news stories and she found 286 00:17:46.759 --> 00:17:50.319 my book, and she read my book three times before 287 00:17:50.359 --> 00:17:53.200 she called the detective back, and she said she knew 288 00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:56.559 by reading my book that that was her sister based 289 00:17:56.599 --> 00:18:01.359 on just the few details that for had told the detectives. 290 00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:05.480 So to me, that made me feel good because it 291 00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:09.200 gave her closure and she knew finally, after all these years, 292 00:18:09.279 --> 00:18:12.400 what had happened to her sister because she had been 293 00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:15.279 missing and they tried to report her missing to the police, 294 00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:18.039 and the police wouldn't allow it because they said, well, 295 00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:20.640 she was taking drugs and so we consider her to 296 00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:24.119 be voluntarily missing and she's so she's not really a 297 00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:28.400 missing person, and unfortunately nobody looked for her, and so 298 00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:32.039 she wasn't in the database as a missing person. And 299 00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:35.960 so you know, normally when you report somebody missing, it's 300 00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:39.119 easier to identify them later when you do find DNA 301 00:18:39.240 --> 00:18:43.559 or something like that, because it's it's I had to 302 00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:46.640 have another book where this is how they were identified 303 00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:49.200 as well, my next book that's coming out of the summer. 304 00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:52.519 They had their DNA and they had it in a database, 305 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:54.799 and so when they found these skeletal remains, they. 306 00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:55.839 Knew immediately who it was. 307 00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:01.079 So it's a shame that the police department in Tucson, 308 00:19:01.160 --> 00:19:03.680 Arizona wouldn't take the missing person's report. 309 00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:06.000 Because she could have been identified much sooner than this. 310 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:12.440 But anyway, so Jeff Cummings, without him purposely submitting his 311 00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:16.319 DNA hoping that it would result in his missing cousin 312 00:19:16.519 --> 00:19:19.319 being identified, we wouldn't be here today. 313 00:19:20.440 --> 00:19:23.079 Let's Jesus as an opportunity to stop to hear these 314 00:19:23.079 --> 00:19:28.359 messages now in the writing of this book, especially this 315 00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:32.440 updated edition. Who did you get to speak to that 316 00:19:32.599 --> 00:19:36.640 was involved with Carrie on Cummings other than Jeff Cummings. 317 00:19:38.119 --> 00:19:41.799 Well, I interviewed Jeff and then I also interviewed Kathy Cummings, 318 00:19:41.799 --> 00:19:44.559 who was her sister, and that's who she was closest to. 319 00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:46.559 So their parents are dead. 320 00:19:46.279 --> 00:19:50.480 By now, but Kathy had been almost kind of like 321 00:19:50.519 --> 00:19:51.559 a parent to her. 322 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:55.000 Carrie didn't really get along. 323 00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:58.400 With her parents because they just didn't understand her lifestyle. 324 00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:03.839 She she left home, she didn't go to college. I'm 325 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:05.599 going to go back a little bit. She actually was. 326 00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:09.960 She was kind of an odd bird, you know, she 327 00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:12.960 didn't fit in. She had a speech impediment, so she 328 00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:16.160 had a difficult time in school getting along with other kids. 329 00:20:16.240 --> 00:20:20.039 They made fun of her, and she just didn't test well. 330 00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:23.039 She didn't do well in a regular school. So but 331 00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:25.880 when she was tested for intelligence, she was found to 332 00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:28.599 be pretty intelligent. It's just that there's some people who 333 00:20:28.759 --> 00:20:31.440 need a different type of education, you know. I don't 334 00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:34.680 know if she was dyslexic or something, and maybe she 335 00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:37.880 wasn't diagnosed properly, but she just had a hard time 336 00:20:38.079 --> 00:20:40.960 in regular school. So she was an artist and she 337 00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:44.240 enjoyed and was talented in art and ended up going 338 00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:48.119 to art school and did well in that, but she 339 00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:50.319 was just kind of a different person and she wanted 340 00:20:50.319 --> 00:20:54.079 to go off, you know, and she hooked up with 341 00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:57.440 the Rainbow Gatherings. I don't know if you know anything 342 00:20:57.440 --> 00:20:59.720 about the Rainbow Gatherings, but there it's just kind of 343 00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:03.000 like a hippie group of people that they all live 344 00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:06.920 in this giant communal kind of situation. And I'm not 345 00:21:06.920 --> 00:21:08.759 sure how long they go, maybe a week or something, 346 00:21:09.559 --> 00:21:11.640 but they get naked and they sit around in the 347 00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:15.640 stream and they do hallucinogenic drugs and they all, you know, 348 00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:18.200 probably sing and it's all kumbay a, you know. So 349 00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:22.960 she basically got into psychedelics and recreational drugs, and I 350 00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:26.319 don't think that helped her brain a whole lot, because 351 00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:31.599 there was depression. The mom and the sister had experienced, 352 00:21:31.960 --> 00:21:36.400 you know, depression, and so they were they took drugs 353 00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:39.839 for that, but pharmaceutical drugs. But Carrie Anne did not 354 00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:44.680 want to take pharmaceutical drugs only she said she was 355 00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:46.799 just going to continue taking the street. 356 00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:47.880 Drugs that she was already taking. 357 00:21:48.599 --> 00:21:50.880 So she would come, she would go to these gatherings, 358 00:21:50.920 --> 00:21:53.200 she would come back home and she would stay with 359 00:21:53.240 --> 00:21:56.400 her sister Kathy for part of the year and then 360 00:21:56.400 --> 00:22:01.759 she'd pick up and leave again. So basically, she came 361 00:22:01.799 --> 00:22:05.920 back one year close to the time to when she disappeared, 362 00:22:06.759 --> 00:22:11.359 and she had her mental state had disintegrated even more 363 00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:15.279 so it was nineteen ninety five that she had a 364 00:22:15.319 --> 00:22:18.960 mental breakdown. She shaved her head, she cut herself on 365 00:22:19.160 --> 00:22:22.839 her forearms. She stuck her hand I guess behind the 366 00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:26.160 refrigerator or something and cut herself that way as well. 367 00:22:26.279 --> 00:22:29.359 But she also cut herself like with a razor, and 368 00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:34.200 she reported hearing voices, and so they, you know, her 369 00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:36.319 mom and her sister tried to get her to go 370 00:22:36.400 --> 00:22:38.960 see somebody, and like I said, she just refused to 371 00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:43.599 take pharmaceutical drugs. So she left again, and you know, 372 00:22:43.640 --> 00:22:46.000 they were worried about her, but she just wouldn't come home. 373 00:22:46.200 --> 00:22:49.079 And her parents, you know, a year or two later, said, 374 00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:51.240 you know, why don't you come travel with us with us? 375 00:22:51.240 --> 00:22:52.319 Because they sold. 376 00:22:52.039 --> 00:22:54.440 Their house and they were, you know, traveling around, and 377 00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:56.039 she just didn't want to be with her parents because 378 00:22:56.079 --> 00:23:00.720 they didn't understand her lifestyle. So her sister Kathy was 379 00:23:00.759 --> 00:23:02.680 trying to get her to come back. She talked to 380 00:23:02.680 --> 00:23:05.200 her on the phone and at one point, you know, 381 00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:07.720 she was sober, but when she talked to her on the 382 00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:11.160 phone again, she was clearly on something again. And so 383 00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:13.799 that was the last time she talked to her. And 384 00:23:15.559 --> 00:23:18.039 they think she was on her way to state with 385 00:23:18.119 --> 00:23:21.799 some friends of the family in northern California, and so 386 00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:25.039 they think that she got into Ford's truck, you know, 387 00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:29.559 in Eureka, Humboldt County, which is in northern California, on 388 00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:34.519 her way to go see these people. Anyway, Cathy told 389 00:23:34.519 --> 00:23:36.200 me about all of that, and so it's all in 390 00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:36.599 the book. 391 00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:44.079 You talk about Wayne at that same time meeting this 392 00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:49.079 woman and him having his own mental problems, right, and 393 00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:52.759 you talk about that these problems were not just diagnosed 394 00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:57.079 by doctors, that he had a history of being restrained 395 00:23:57.200 --> 00:23:59.759 in a hospital while he was in the military and 396 00:23:59.759 --> 00:24:07.200 then discharge greatly because of that mental illness, didn't he Yeah. 397 00:24:07.240 --> 00:24:10.279 He Okay, So let's go back. So when he was 398 00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:12.960 he was nineteen years old, he was in the Marines 399 00:24:13.519 --> 00:24:17.119 in Orange County, California. So I live in San Diego County, 400 00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:19.119 so that's one county to the north on the way 401 00:24:19.160 --> 00:24:22.000