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Speaker 1: I remember saying this once. In your incompleteness is your authenticity.

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You don't have to stay there. You know, we're working

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on theosis. But in your incompleteness is your authenticity. Get

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to know yourself in that fashion, and then know that

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against all conceivable odds, God is still inutterably interested in you.

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That's my miracle. It's like, how can that fella even

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gaze in my direction? You know at this point, but somehow,

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somehow he does.

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Speaker 2: This is Jonathan Pejol. Welcome to the Symbolic World.

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Speaker 3: Hello there, Well, this is Marty Sure, and I'm afraid

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whatever you had planned for January scrap it. I am

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returning to symbolic world gleefully with one of the great

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stories of our time, the Epic of Passable, the story

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of the Holy Grail itself. Over five nights, I will

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be telling the tale. These will not be dry lectures

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or PowerPoint presentations. These will be wild, old philosophical storytelling

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in its deepest dimensions. It is life changing stuff, this story.

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I've written a book about it, I've been studying it

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for twenty years. I've told it all over the world,

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but I have not shared it with you. I've not

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shared it with symbolic world. So what else would you

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want to do in the great wintering time but to

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sit at the feet of this wonderful story and let

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me be your guide.

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Speaker 1: I'll see you there.

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Speaker 4: Hello everyone, I'm here with the legendary Martin Shaw. You know,

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it's very exciting. There's a lot of wonderful things happening

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with Martin. He is going to give us a retelling

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of the Grail story. You can check it out.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 4: It's kind of like a class where every single day

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you can sit in the evening with Martin and listen

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it to him give you a retelling of Parsival and

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at the same time give his insight and his analysis.

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Speaker 2: So that's coming.

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Speaker 4: But also Martin has a new book called Liturgies of

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the Wild, which I was very fortunate to get a

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reader's reader's proof, and so Martin, Yeah, it's wonderful to

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see you be so successful.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for talking to me. Thank you, Jonathan. I am

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the longest overnight sensation of all time.

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Speaker 2: Ah.

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Speaker 4: I'm really happy though, because you know, I'll be honest

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with you. You know, you when you kind of converted

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to Christianity and especially becoming orthodox of all the people

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that I know, I knew that for you it was

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a great risk like that that it was very costly,

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like at least it could have been very costly.

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Speaker 2: And I think it was at the beginning very costly

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for you.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 4: And so I admired you for your integrity and kind

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of moving that direction. Nonetheless, And I and every time

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I see you, every time, you know, every time I

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see you publish a new book and then go speak

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to these but massive venues, I'm thanking God, and I'm like, God,

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thank you forgiving you know, for giving him this in

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in in response.

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Speaker 1: Oh, Jonathan, that's so amazing to hear. I do feel

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on the I feel on the end of your prayers.

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That's a beautiful thing. And as we would both, I'm

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sure say to anybody watching pray, fir ust please you know,

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it's come to the end of the year. Most of

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us feel like a crumpled up crisp packet, as we

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say over here, and there is some exhaustion. You know,

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these are very you can say, you can always say

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it's troubled times, but it seems especially corrosive at the moment.

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So I am thrilled to be honest, that in the

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depths of winter at the time, to be honest, where

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some of us can slip a little bit into depression

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or even despair, that we would gather for you know,

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five nights and go deep into the ground mysteries. I

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would find it hard to fathom where else I'd want

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to be, to be honest. So, and you know I'm

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looking forward to it, and thank you Literatures of the Wild.

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This is my slightly larger version as a thick book

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is out in February, and I am just about to

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announce you will be hearing it first that that will

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include a fairly significant American tour. So I'll be in

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New York, Chicago, various places on the East Coast, then

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over to Stanford University up California, and then finally I

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will be with I think probably do we now call

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him Deacon Seraphin? Yeah? Have you not? Have you noticed

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how blue his eyes are now getting? The bigger the beard,

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the bigger the bed, the blue of the eyes. You know,

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there's this prophetic energy coming in that I thoroughly salute.

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So anyway I'll be with him. I'll be with Deacon Seraphine,

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our dear Richard in Texas at an Orthodox arts conference

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at Valentine's Day weekend in February.

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Speaker 4: That's great, you know, I've been. It's been wonderful to

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kind of see the how we call it, I mean,

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the rise of the storytellers, or you know that that

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people are starting to notice the importance of remembering and

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of of knowing, you know, and not knowing in a

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superficial sense, but really living in the stories.

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Speaker 2: And so I mean, I.

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Speaker 4: Guess that's that's why we should start in. I should

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ask you, Martin, what is the greatest what?

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Speaker 5: Oh good Lord, absolutely.

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Speaker 1: Convinced that you have had many symbolic world podcasts already

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on quite what the Grail is. I wrote a book

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all about this, and it's this book Snowy Tower, Passable

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and the Wet Black Branch of Language. And one of

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the things I did in that book, which I will

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not be doing in our course, is I rather swerved

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the issue. I rather served it, because actually, by the

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time you get there are three really important literary writers.

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When it comes to the story of the Grail. It

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would begin very much with cretend Destois, then through to

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pass through to Wolfram von Eschenbach, and then the version

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of Arthur that we're most familiar with really comes from

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Thomas Mallory. You know mort Arthur and then the once

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in Future King and that kind of thing. Now what

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happens is the stories. This is just me thinking I've

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never said this out loud before. They you get a

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more daylight version of the Grail mysteries in Mallory, then

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you get a moonlight version, you get a more interior version,

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you get a more mystical version with Wolfram von Eschenbach,

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which is the version that I'm stewed in. So quite

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what the Grail is? Well, I don't want to give

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the game away. You've got to come with us on

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the adventure.

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Speaker 5: I have half a.

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Speaker 1: Thought about it. I have half a thought about it.

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You will know that the Grail in later versions gets

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very much combed out to a point where it absolutely

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has to be the holy Grail. And as a Christian

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of a mystical disposition, I would be in favor of that,

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and I think it has great resonance grail. You know,

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it also can relate to a plate. It has a

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sense of something that is absolutely abundant. So if the

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Grail is in front of you as a large stone,

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or a plate or something that's fallen from heaven. It

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has an inexhaustible quality to it. Anything you could want

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to eat at a grail feast comes in endless supply

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from the grail, anything you would want to drink. And

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this has its roots in early Celtic probably pagan stories,

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I would imagine, really pre Christian, and so a lot

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of the scholarship that went on in the twentieth century

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about quite what the Grail is they maneuvered round two

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or three different positions. One was, this is absolutely a

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kind of living Christian mythology that all relates back to

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the Last Supper, and probably could be argued that Kreten

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just sort of imagined a lot of it up, probably

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being very influenced by the oral tradition and hearing a

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lot of stories, and then so in other words, it

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wouldn't have the backstory of Celtic and Irish myth that

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most people suppose it has. You will probably know the

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historian Tom Holland who wrote Dominion. Tom Holland kind of

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controversially is of the opinion that Kretien just thought it

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all up. He was just sort of, you know, a

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divine download and he just sort of put it together. However,

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one of the reasons I wonder if that is the

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case and it is only wondering, is one of the

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stories that Kreten wrote down was a story called Lancelot.

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He introduces Lancelot and Gawayne and the Holy Grail.

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Speaker 2: He's the guy.

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Speaker 1: This is where it begins in literature, but not necessarily

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in orality. But kret En never finished his story of Lancelot,

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and it's not necessarily that he died. It's actually it's

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likely that he did not approve of the adultery of

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Lancelot with gwenevit in the story, and it was finished

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by someone else. Now, if you really are the author

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of that story, you just changed the character, change it.

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So for me, that is indicative that he was connected

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to source is before he wrote some of this down,

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although he's incredibly vague about it.

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Speaker 2: Hmm.

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Speaker 4: And I think, I mean one of the things that

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I that I that I think about this is that

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there is also a kind of confluence that doesn't necessarily

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have to be origin. So one of the things that

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Christians do, and I mean not just Christians, but when

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most people do, is that if they have a tradition,

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for example, about the importance of the cup that Christ

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used at the Last Supper. And also there's a tradition

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of the cup into which the blood of Christ is gathered,

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you know, and you see that in medieval early medieval

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images you see the angel that holds a cup underneath

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the blood that on the cross, when Christ is on

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the cross, you see the blood coming out and you

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see an angel that's holding the cup and that is

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receiving the blood.

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Speaker 1: So you have these.

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Speaker 4: Traditions that are there, and then you also have other

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images that come from pagan sources, like you know, like

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horn of Plenty type cups, cups that are that are

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that even if you think of the fairy tale of

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the little Part, you know that that makes the porridge,

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you know that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 2: So you have all of these these images that are

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floating around.

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Speaker 4: In the in the story space, and it's not it

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wouldn't be surprising that even people that tell the stories

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and seeing the relationships, you know, those will start to

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kind of glum together and that even though even though

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there isn't a direct origin, that they end up accumulating

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these these legends into the story.

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Speaker 1: Beautifully put and I think both of us would agree

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with Augustine. All truth is God's truth. And so you know,

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stories all over the place are filled with images with information, insight, marvels,

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and wisdom. Mythology is a phantasmagoria of marvels. There's marvels everywhere.

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My life was studying marvels in a way through storytelling

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for thirty years. But there's a difference between marvels and hate.

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And there's something that goes on in Christianity that seems

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to be to do with profound healing. You know, I

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think of the Church not originally, you know, it's not

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an original thought to me. I do think of it

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as a kind of field hospital. I was saying to

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Paul vander Clay recently. I said, I think Orthodoxy is

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about to become the field hospital of the West. You know,

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they'll just be people loafing over the fir me being

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one of them. Of course, So I think you're right.

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But what I would what I would take issue with,

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I suppose is people are always very interested in what's

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the one true version of something. Thinking recently about the

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difference between the Nativity in Matthew and the Nativity in

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Luke and my conclusion is maybe a story that important

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deserves more than one version, Maybe we need maybe you know,

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that's one of the glories of the Gospel, is the

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strange tension that the four Gospels hold us him. And

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as I'm thinking now, I'm going I haven't thought any

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of this through then the grail in a way and

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it's continual, imaginative and holy spirited evolution. It's not meant

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to rest on the shoulders of one person or one telling.

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It's meant to be furtive in one way or another.

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Get this. The last weekend I was lucky enough to

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be teaching with the ex Archbishop of Canterbury, Rohan Williams,

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and Rowan said. He said, he gave about an hour

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and a half where basically, and I hope he doesn't

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mind me phrasing it like this, he presented Jesus predominantly

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as a trickster figure. It was pretty interesting. And he

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said the first thing you need to know about Christ

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is how fundamentally unprofessional he is. And he says, just

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avoid professionals. And I was like, okay, Coming from the

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hex's head of the Church of England, that was a

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very interesting thing. And then he went on and told

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Russian fairy tales. Can you imagine that Rome Williams in

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a storyteller's cloak telling old Russian fairy tales as Christian allegories?

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Pretty cool? Yeah, yeah, that's I didn't have even imagined

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that ten years ago, but he's that kind of fella.

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So coming back anyway, is what I'm trying to get

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at is the notion of the Grail as a movable feast.

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You will know that in terms of the origins of

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the Arthurian stories, there's a fairly convincing argument that some

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of the images come from the Caucuses, and so they

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would have moved through warriors that would have been part

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of the Roman army that then would have settled in England,

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but would have been telling stories from the Caucuses, which

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have all sorts of mythologies of ladies of lakes and

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swords and stones, and that gets integrated into Celtic story.

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Are a promiscuous bunch, you know, we just wander around

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and we go, well, what have you got? You've got

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a sword? Oh, that would be amazing in that story.

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And we go and we dream about it, and we

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think about it, and we fast on hills about it

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and sooner or later that sword may well arrive, you know.

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So what we've got, what I'm trying to encourage us,

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is we have something with the Grail that is vital

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and alive and talking to us to this day. You know,

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it's it's a verb. You know, it's it's a movement.

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Speaker 4: I think that a lot of things in what you said.

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One is that especially well, first of all, in terms

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of Christ like that. You know, when the the Gospels

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in the early centuries, there was a movement to consolidate

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the gospels, right, and to create one gospel. Yeah, and

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so some of the early Christians they were trying to

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move in that direction, and ultimately the Church resisted that

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and left the four Gospels as is. And if you

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look at the image of Christ in Glory with the

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four Evangelists, you know, with the four beasts, there is

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this sense that in fact, we see Christ through these

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four representations, and that Christ remains in some respects remains

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hidden behind, you know. And at the end of the

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Gospel of Saint John, he says, you know, if all

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the books, if if everything hasn't done it written, not

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enough books in the world would be there to would

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be able to to to to fill that. And so

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there's I think that there's something interesting about the Grail

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as well in that in that sense, is that the

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fact that what the Grail seems to represent as the quest,

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as the thing that is the thing you want the most,

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as the thing, the thing that will truly transform you. Uh,

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you know that will bring you beyond yourself. You know

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that it's true that that can only be represented in

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multiple ways.

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Speaker 2: It even though.

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Speaker 4: It has us, every one of us has that in them,

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but it won't appear the same two different two different people.

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And so it seems to make sense that there are

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these different tellings and there is a aspect of.

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Speaker 2: The veil that has remained veiled.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, yes. I always have a question of

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three questions with my students when we're getting near the grail,

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I say, what do you love? What will it cost?

296
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How much you prepared to pay? And that's usually rummaging

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around and a lot of the myths and stories that

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we care to remember. So I agree with you for me,

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as soon as somebody says it absolutely is this, this

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and this A lot of my as I said, that's

301
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all sunlight, no moonlight. You know, there's no dream time

302
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in it. There's no dream time in it. And the

303
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thing that's so interesting about Wolfram who the first thing

304
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you need to know about the Grail stories is that

305
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they're written initially in French, not Latin. That's huge because

306
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that's saying this is not just a prop up the church.

307
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These are stories to be told in the court to

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people at en Anda of Aquitaine, to young men who

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may well become warriors and try to figure out is

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there a way of being in the world and defending

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in the church which is not just a brute on

312
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a horse. That is not That actually brings forward with

313
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the notion of no bless oblige, but no doubt about it.

314
00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,279
Kreten is still very much a creature of court. But

315
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the character who we're going to explore through the telling

316
00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,200
of Passable, this guy Wolfram von Eschenbach, is not a

317
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,440
creature of court. He is a knight. He's a real knight.

318
00:18:32,519 --> 00:18:35,799
And you get that in his elaborate descriptions which I

319
00:18:35,799 --> 00:18:39,079
have to rush through of you know, armor, getting on

320
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and off horses. He just goes into outrageous gossipy detail

321
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because he's German, and you know what the Germans are

322
00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,640
like they think, well, we'll take the French model but

323
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:52,960
will improve it. You know, he's a minisinger, he's a

324
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singer of love, he's a Troubadau. He's around the same

325
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time as Kreten Detroit, But like Kreten, he hides and

326
00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:05,200
obscures his sources. And he says, oh, I got this

327
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all from a French poet who got it all from

328
00:19:08,319 --> 00:19:13,839
a Middle Eastern astrologer who actually saw the story of

329
00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,759
the Grail in the night sky. So he opens it

330
00:19:16,839 --> 00:19:20,319
up like that. Personally, as someone that has sat almost

331
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weekly with Passival for about twenty years, I think a

332
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,960
lot of I think a lot of that is wolf

333
00:19:27,039 --> 00:19:30,920
Ram's razzle dazzle. I don't think it's absolutely rooted. It's

334
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,000
his charisma as a story teller. I don't think tremendous

335
00:19:34,079 --> 00:19:36,920
root system in it leading all the way back to India.

336
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But that doesn't mean that people won't write those books

337
00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:40,759
because it's fun. It's great fun.

338
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:47,680
Speaker 4: What is the relationship? Where how do you understand the relationship?

339
00:19:47,759 --> 00:19:50,680
Because you could have that, say, the story of the

340
00:19:50,759 --> 00:19:54,240
Grail in a in a more religious sense, right, you

341
00:19:54,279 --> 00:19:56,680
could have this idea of the legend you know of

342
00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,319
the cup that Christ used at the last supper, there

343
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was maybe you to gather his blood at the at

344
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the cross, you know, and that became a kind of

345
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you know, a vessel of immortality or however you want

346
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to think about it. So you could have this, had

347
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this mythological you could have had this mythological story you know,

348
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be told and retold. But how does it connect to

349
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,640
the the chivalrous aspect? Do you think, like the relationship

350
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:24,680
between the knight and the lady you see it in

351
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Cassandertois that it's a that it's a that is there

352
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right at the outset.

353
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Speaker 2: It's very important. This this this.

354
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Speaker 4: This ambiguous relationship that the knights have with their lady.

355
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Speaker 1: You know, they have.

356
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Speaker 4: To to to to give to their lady, but not

357
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too much, like they have to go on adventure, but

358
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they also have to care for their lady. Like what

359
00:20:41,799 --> 00:20:43,839
does that have to do with the grail? How do

360
00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:45,640
you how do you connect these things together?

361
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Speaker 1: You get it? I mean one word would be a

362
00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:53,720
certain kind of sensitivity. But let's go back to where

363
00:20:53,799 --> 00:20:56,519
that notion of what they call the far distant lady

364
00:20:56,599 --> 00:21:01,160
comes from. And irony of ironies, which it's delightful to

365
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,839
me at that At the moment, especially in England, everybody

366
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:08,759
is so terrified of Islam as if nothing good ever

367
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,599
came out of it. There it's all, you know, it's

368
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all become a kind of mono thing at the Islam,

369
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Islam Islam. But of course what you get in Moorish

370
00:21:18,759 --> 00:21:21,920
Spain back in the era that these stories come from

371
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is Islamic diplomats who would come over the Pyrenees and

372
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they would talk in the French courts, and you couldn't

373
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be a Muslim diplomat if you weren't a trained poet.

374
00:21:34,319 --> 00:21:38,039
That's pretty cool. And they turned up and they would

375
00:21:38,319 --> 00:21:43,720
they would have ecstatic Persian poetry at their disposal that

376
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:49,079
praised the feminine as a vehicle for encounter with divine ground.

377
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In other words, you could have a religious experience through

378
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:56,640
a romantic encounter and not promiscurities, not just eros. It's

379
00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:02,519
more so, ironically, is this these courts of love were

380
00:22:02,559 --> 00:22:07,079
witnessing this what you could call appreciative consciousness coming across

381
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,319
the Pyrenees in the shape of these Muslim diplomats, and

382
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:14,759
they said, ah, this is the missing bit in the

383
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:20,240
tenderizing of our warriors and storytellers. So, in other words,

384
00:22:20,279 --> 00:22:23,799
if we're going to start looking at something like the grail,

385
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,880
first of all, the grail and its relationship to the feminine,

386
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,440
its relationship to the land, its relationship to people in distress,

387
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:36,240
we need to build a kind of body, an appreciative

388
00:22:36,279 --> 00:22:40,559
body of thought, around it. And so there's a lovely

389
00:22:40,599 --> 00:22:48,079
phrase in the early Troubidoor tradition where where they say

390
00:22:48,319 --> 00:22:51,119
before they say we had the bread, now we have

391
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:55,319
the knife. In other words, the French poets pre this

392
00:22:55,519 --> 00:23:00,680
Islamic influence. They understood sex that they didn't understand more,

393
00:23:00,759 --> 00:23:03,960
they didn't understand romance. We had the bread, now we

394
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:05,960
have the knife. In other words, we no longer tearing

395
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,119
the bread with our hands. We're no longer raping women

396
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,400
in fields when we go past them on our horse.

397
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,119
We're sitting down getting our loute out, and you know,

398
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,559
singing them a poem. So things start to change. I'll

399
00:23:18,559 --> 00:23:21,640
just give you an example. This is the very first

400
00:23:21,799 --> 00:23:23,960
I can do this out of my head. This is

401
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,720
William of Potiers. I think he says this, This is

402
00:23:29,759 --> 00:23:33,640
the first Troubadoul poem. In the sweetness of spring, words

403
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,079
turn green and the birds sing on each in their

404
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:41,039
own particular Latin. And I think about this sweet war

405
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:43,960
that we brought to an end when you gave me

406
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,880
your faithful valley and your ring. I want my God

407
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,720
to let me live long enough to have my hand

408
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:58,200
under your cloak again. Boom. I want my God to

409
00:23:58,279 --> 00:24:00,119
let me live long enough to have my hand to

410
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,920
your cloak again. So you get the divine world and

411
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,720
the romantic and everything is happening at the same time.

412
00:24:06,279 --> 00:24:10,480
But what we know is at the twelfth and thirteenth century,

413
00:24:10,519 --> 00:24:16,519
there was a real need for you know, the Crusades

414
00:24:16,559 --> 00:24:18,839
had been going on. There was a need for young

415
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,119
men that were not going to be monastics, but in

416
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:27,319
some way had to feel connected to deep religious vocation.

417
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,559
We meet people without quests in their life. We meet

418
00:24:31,599 --> 00:24:34,640
people that have no grail, and we recognize them because

419
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,759
they are lost, you know, they're lost in the wasteland.

420
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,680
I see it all the time. I see the deficit

421
00:24:40,759 --> 00:24:42,400
of these stories around me a lot.

422
00:24:43,279 --> 00:24:48,799
Speaker 2: Hm hm, there is, It seems there is also.

423
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,680
Speaker 4: I mean, because you were talking about this this Moorish

424
00:24:51,839 --> 00:24:55,160
you know, these Spanish poems that were coming, I wonder

425
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:59,519
if you'd think there's also a relationship between Bernard of Clervaux,

426
00:25:00,079 --> 00:25:04,119
you know, and his kind of high devotion to the Virgin.

427
00:25:04,799 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 1: Absolutely.

428
00:25:06,079 --> 00:25:09,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's where the Temps themselves like because of Bernard,

429
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,440
because he wrote their rule. There was a very very

430
00:25:12,519 --> 00:25:14,920
strong devotion to the to the Holy Virgin in the

431
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:16,680
early kind of crusading nights.

432
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 1: Yes, and that's that in the end, is where that

433
00:25:20,559 --> 00:25:23,519
ends up in the troubado Or tradition, because first of all,

434
00:25:23,559 --> 00:25:26,880
it's a very volatile thing to do. That Troubadoor tradition

435
00:25:27,079 --> 00:25:32,000
believed that romantic love could only exist in adultery. It

436
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,680
couldn't happen in a marriage, because marriages were things of convention.

437
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,279
If you think of the word a more amo r

438
00:25:39,759 --> 00:25:44,000
if you turn it round roma, that is societal obligation

439
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,559
and the intoxications of love, which is writ large for

440
00:25:48,599 --> 00:25:50,920
example in the story of Tristan and is Older, which

441
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:55,839
they all loved. That means a degree of scandal. That means,

442
00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:01,519
you know, passion overriding protocol, and that cause pandemonium because

443
00:26:01,599 --> 00:26:04,039
every time you try to live out a Troubadour poem,

444
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,200
you were going to get unstuck by the head of

445
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,960
the household, that's right. So what happens is they take

446
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:17,519
that glorious re emerging of care for the feminine, shall

447
00:26:17,559 --> 00:26:21,400
we say, poetical appreciation of the feminine, and they begin

448
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:23,359
to focus it towards Mary for sure.

449
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you, I mean, what is your insight about that,

450
00:26:28,519 --> 00:26:32,200
because I mean a lot of people later will make

451
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:33,880
a relationship between.

452
00:26:33,519 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 2: The Grail and the and the Virgin, you.

453
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,519
Speaker 4: Know, as the containers, as this kind of feminine container.

454
00:26:39,519 --> 00:26:43,480
Do you see that in the Grail tradition? Yes, I do,

455
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:48,160
I do, and I on a very It's funny. I

456
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,839
have a career as an academic and I have a PhD.

457
00:26:51,319 --> 00:26:53,319
But the older I get, the more I try and

458
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:58,440
shake it off me, you know, for whatever, I just

459
00:26:58,519 --> 00:27:02,839
try and sit there and allow whatever tiny imagination God

460
00:27:02,839 --> 00:27:04,599
has given me. I just try and let it be

461
00:27:04,759 --> 00:27:07,400
free range these days. So a thought that I do

462
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,519
have is that I often think of the Grail as

463
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:15,200
Mayory's womb. I think, well, the most important thing is Christ,

464
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,759
and that little fourteen year old girl, or however old

465
00:27:17,799 --> 00:27:22,559
she was, she's the grail carrier for me because it's Christ,

466
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:22,880
you know.

467
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:28,559
Speaker 1: So I see that. And the Church, as you know,

468
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,000
has a slightly ambivalent relationship to the Grail stories for

469
00:27:33,079 --> 00:27:36,480
some time because on the one hand, they are aware

470
00:27:36,519 --> 00:27:39,240
of their importance. They know it's part of the formation

471
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,359
of the warrior caste and chivalry is pointing towards Christian experience.

472
00:27:44,839 --> 00:27:48,359
But as we've said, it's something it's not something that

473
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,680
is hidden under people that can speak Latin. It's being

474
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,559
spoken in French, it's being spoken in German.

475
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 2: There is a.

476
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,599
Speaker 1: Sense that people that are not clerical can have, you know,

477
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:06,720
a very powerful encounter with vocation. And ultimately, you said

478
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,160
it a few minutes ago, service, who does the Grail serve?

479
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,640
If you're not in service to something bigger than yourself,

480
00:28:14,759 --> 00:28:17,000
then you're not on a quest that is big enough

481
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:18,079
for you.

482
00:28:18,079 --> 00:28:20,680
Speaker 2: You know, I was.

483
00:28:20,799 --> 00:28:23,599
Speaker 4: I was marked because you know, we just finished the

484
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,480
Dante's Paradiso. Wow, you know, until we just finished that,

485
00:28:27,559 --> 00:28:29,839
finished that class, and I had read it maybe ten

486
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,160
years ago last time, and so it was great to

487
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,680
read it again. And I was really marked by the

488
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:39,599
way at the end when Dante describes the great mystic rose, right,

489
00:28:39,599 --> 00:28:41,880
the one which is the gathering of all the saints together,

490
00:28:42,559 --> 00:28:45,400
it was difficult not to notice that the shape of

491
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,240
that mystic rose was actually like a giant cup.

492
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 2: The way that he describes it.

493
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,519
Speaker 4: He describes it as this kind of this rose, but

494
00:28:52,559 --> 00:28:55,200
that goes up on the sides, and you know, and

495
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,880
that the divine revelation is in the middle, and it's

496
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,880
like an it's kind of like an mpth empathy, but

497
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,279
you realize it. It's like a it's like a cup,

498
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,640
like a flower, and it's also like a cup. And

499
00:29:06,759 --> 00:29:09,039
the Virgin is of course that one who's the highest

500
00:29:09,039 --> 00:29:11,680
and is mentioned as being the highest in the in

501
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:12,359
the image.

502
00:29:13,319 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 2: And so you know, I.

503
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:20,319
Speaker 4: Don't know does Dante have does does Dante have a

504
00:29:20,359 --> 00:29:21,920
connection to the grails story?

505
00:29:23,319 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: Almost certainly I couldn't produce it out of my head

506
00:29:26,599 --> 00:29:30,319
at this moment, but you would think he might. He might.

507
00:29:30,359 --> 00:29:32,960
It must have been there somewhere. Okay, So let's think

508
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:38,000
about the grail in terms of the relationship between desire

509
00:29:38,119 --> 00:29:42,240
and longing, because in a way, certainly in the story

510
00:29:42,279 --> 00:29:46,720
of Passaval, he can desire a second crack at the grail.

511
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:48,519
I don't want to be too much of a plot spoiler,

512
00:29:48,559 --> 00:29:52,200
but he hasn't encounter earlier on in his life. He's

513
00:29:52,279 --> 00:29:55,640
not quite ready for that moment, and the real digging

514
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,400
for passable will be this one question, how do you

515
00:29:59,519 --> 00:30:04,039
find by an act of will something you once encountered

516
00:30:04,599 --> 00:30:07,799
as an act of grace? Is that even possible? But

517
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,480
all the way through passaval is the story of it

518
00:30:12,559 --> 00:30:17,240
begins with the desire of a young man, and then

519
00:30:17,359 --> 00:30:20,920
as an older man that moves into spiritual longing. And

520
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,920
spiritual longing is absolutely not the same thing. My desire

521
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,599
is to do with books, as you can see around me,

522
00:30:28,119 --> 00:30:31,079
and my desire these days could be met fairly frequently

523
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:35,839
and immediately. However, longing and we learn this in the

524
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:40,960
Irish tradition. They always say that you will experience something

525
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,559
back from longing, but it'll rarely come in the shape

526
00:30:43,599 --> 00:30:47,960
that accept you are expecting. Comes in some other way,

527
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,160
comes in some more refined way. God is not going

528
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:55,160
to necessarily give you what you want. He's going to

529
00:30:55,200 --> 00:31:00,279
give you what you need. And the juiress that Possi

530
00:31:00,519 --> 00:31:03,400
is under takes us back to a very essential thing

531
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,559
in all myths. No pressure, no diamond, No pressure, no diamond.

532
00:31:08,119 --> 00:31:14,680
Until you are forced into certain crisis, certain kind of

533
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,640
acuity of circumstance, you're not really going to be able

534
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,039
to get past the inebriation of your passions and into

535
00:31:22,079 --> 00:31:27,279
something deeper. So it's a story that never lets us

536
00:31:27,319 --> 00:31:29,880
go in a way, it's a story for somebody that's ninety,

537
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:31,720
it's a story for somebody that's sixteen.

538
00:31:31,799 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 2: You know, do you think that I mean related to

539
00:31:35,559 --> 00:31:36,519
Do you think that in some.

540
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 4: Ways failing to recognize the grail or failing to be

541
00:31:43,279 --> 00:31:47,359
able to grasp it is part of the story that

542
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,799
it almost has to happen to the hero so that

543
00:31:51,839 --> 00:31:55,000
he can ultimately reach that true longing.

544
00:31:56,079 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: My question will be halfway through pass of all, the

545
00:32:01,559 --> 00:32:05,359
question I'll ask everybody is what question have you failed

546
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,720
to ask? What questions do you failed to ask? Give

547
00:32:08,759 --> 00:32:11,200
yourself a few days to think about that, because I

548
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,160
can guarantee you somewhere there's been a great abdication. You

549
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,960
will have had a moment of tremendous potential that then

550
00:32:19,359 --> 00:32:23,440
sailed away. And the wonderful thing that we learned from

551
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,680
fairy tales is that often these opportunities will come around again.

552
00:32:28,039 --> 00:32:31,000
When you think, for example, in folk myths, oh, once

553
00:32:31,079 --> 00:32:34,119
upon a time there was three brothers, there were three sisters.

554
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,000
One of the ways you can enjoy that is the

555
00:32:37,039 --> 00:32:40,880
first two times the invitation to the quest comes, you

556
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,359
blow it, or you're too focused on having a career

557
00:32:44,599 --> 00:32:47,480
or whatever it is. But the third time it comes around,

558
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,759
which could be when you're sixty five, it's a matter

559
00:32:49,839 --> 00:32:53,799
of life and death. And so the younger brother in you,

560
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,079
the younger sister in you, is the one that's going

561
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,359
to have the adventure. And so I like the fact

562
00:32:59,359 --> 00:33:01,920
that the door of mercy is still open a crack.

563
00:33:02,799 --> 00:33:06,720
And going back to what you just said, in a way,

564
00:33:06,759 --> 00:33:10,599
it's crucial that Passaval doesn't know the question. There'd be

565
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,799
no story. He's too young in a way to know

566
00:33:13,839 --> 00:33:17,319
the question. And it reminds me of a story that

567
00:33:17,359 --> 00:33:19,880
you and I really love, Gawayne and the Green Knight.

568
00:33:20,359 --> 00:33:22,640
Whereas I always feel at the end Gawayne for the

569
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,559
rest of his life, when he reaches on the back

570
00:33:25,599 --> 00:33:29,240
of his neck, there's that scar tissue. Man, that's going

571
00:33:29,319 --> 00:33:31,759
to be better than any book award he ever wins,

572
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:36,920
or any podcast or any anything. Because you know, I

573
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:41,519
remember saying this once, in your incompleteness is your authenticity.

574
00:33:42,319 --> 00:33:44,480
You don't have to stay there. You know we're working

575
00:33:44,519 --> 00:33:49,000
on theosis, But in your incompleteness is your authenticity. Get

576
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:53,559
to know yourself in that fashion and then know that

577
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:58,599
against all conceivable odds, God is still inutterably interested in you.

578
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,559
That's my miracle. Like, how can that fella even gaze

579
00:34:02,599 --> 00:34:06,359
in my direction, you know at this point, But somehow,

580
00:34:07,039 --> 00:34:07,880
somehow he does.

581
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, your insight, I think is because it is mysterious.

582
00:34:14,039 --> 00:34:16,800
It is mysterious when you look at some of these

583
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:21,320
stories that there is an aspect of failure, you know,

584
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,320
especially in Sir Gawayne, because he ends where he feels

585
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,119
like he hasn't succeeded, like he has a he has

586
00:34:28,159 --> 00:34:31,760
a kind of shame that he carries, but all the

587
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,199
other characters are telling him, no, he did great. You know,

588
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,840
you're you're you're wonderful. And so that.

589
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 4: I I you know, I think that my my my

590
00:34:43,639 --> 00:34:47,079
modern self. It's used to watching, you know, movies with

591
00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:50,960
heroes and used to watching you know, Sylvester Stallone finish

592
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,079
with a you know, uh uzzi shooting down all the

593
00:34:54,119 --> 00:34:57,639
bad guys. You know, there's something about it that is disturbing.

594
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,239
You know, this this this this weakness that is so

595
00:35:02,079 --> 00:35:07,039
on on the forefront of the story. But I think

596
00:35:07,039 --> 00:35:09,480
that you what you've just said is giving me insight

597
00:35:09,519 --> 00:35:11,840
into that is that in some ways, it's it's we

598
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:13,000
as Christians.

599
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:14,559
Speaker 2: We don't believe that we're sufficient.

600
00:35:14,679 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 1: You know, no, that there is Yeah, I notice over now.

601
00:35:21,639 --> 00:35:24,880
You know, almost thirty years of working with groups of people,

602
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:29,440
you never bring a room together in solidarity when you

603
00:35:29,599 --> 00:35:34,239
just give them victory stories. Never. What is astonishing is

604
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:38,360
when somebody stands up and says, for better or for worse,

605
00:35:38,519 --> 00:35:40,599
I'm struggling and I'm struggling with this.

606
00:35:41,079 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 5: Now.

607
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean that you are just behaving in a

608
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,079
typical kind of often talk about the addiction to disclosure

609
00:35:48,119 --> 00:35:49,800
that we seem to have these days. I'm not talking

610
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,480
about that, but it is your capacity to just stand

611
00:35:52,559 --> 00:35:55,960
up and be real. And so you know, I am exhausted,

612
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,239
and I mean there's a lovely irish expression they after

613
00:35:59,519 --> 00:36:03,519
the Shannon. The storytellers often begin a story with this note.

614
00:36:03,559 --> 00:36:05,760
They say, how can I be with you if I

615
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:10,679
am not sad? And everybody just goes oh, And there's

616
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:15,199
just a place at the table for our sorrows and

617
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:20,599
our incompleteness and our confusions. But we persist anyway, and

618
00:36:20,679 --> 00:36:22,599
so you don't get drowned in it, but you allow

619
00:36:22,639 --> 00:36:26,239
it a place at the table and so. You know,

620
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:28,920
in the old Irish myths they always have these fellows

621
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,519
called so and so say con of the hundred battles. Well,

622
00:36:32,559 --> 00:36:35,599
part of having a hundred battles is not that you

623
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:41,199
succeeded every time, but you made your failure sufficiently insightful

624
00:36:41,599 --> 00:36:44,599
and beautiful that it becomes something that you can give

625
00:36:44,639 --> 00:36:45,199
other people.

626
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 5: Hm hmmm.

627
00:36:49,079 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 4: So I want I want to I want to shift

628
00:36:51,159 --> 00:36:54,800
a little bit away from the grail. People can can

629
00:36:55,119 --> 00:36:58,920
follow you on that on that front when the course comes.

630
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:01,920
And I want to talk a bit about the new book.

631
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:02,800
You know you've written.

632
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,280
Speaker 1: Where is it twenty? How many books? Twenty not twenty?

633
00:37:07,599 --> 00:37:09,840
I would have written about seventeen. And then they're not

634
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,079
all huge, They're not real huge, you know.

635
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 2: Still that's quite that's quite a bit.

636
00:37:14,559 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 4: And so.

637
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,320
Speaker 2: What is it? What is what is it about this book? Is?

638
00:37:19,559 --> 00:37:23,079
What is it that you're working on in the digis

639
00:37:23,119 --> 00:37:23,559
of the World.

640
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,760
Speaker 1: I was thinking about this earlier on and I was thinking,

641
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:32,159
I was I was having a I was having a

642
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,719
kind of I was like Seraphin of Sarov meets J. R. R.

643
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,320
Tolkien in a bar in Chicago, and they have an

644
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:41,679
arm muscle and that's lituragures of the wild. In a way,

645
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,480
it's it's somewhere. It's kind of the place where wild

646
00:37:44,639 --> 00:37:49,480
orthodoxy meets English mythopoetics, and it's a bit of an explosion.

647
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,000
It's a book. It's a book about a very simple

648
00:37:53,079 --> 00:37:56,039
premise that lives behind all myths and stories. How do

649
00:37:56,119 --> 00:38:00,519
we become fully human in the time of our friend

650
00:38:00,599 --> 00:38:02,559
Paul would say, in the time of the machine? How

651
00:38:02,599 --> 00:38:04,960
do you become an angel in that machine? That's a

652
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,480
lot of what in a way. Someone wrote to me

653
00:38:07,519 --> 00:38:09,719
the other day very kindly about it, and they said,

654
00:38:10,119 --> 00:38:13,079
Paul gives us the diagnosis, you give us the remedy.

655
00:38:14,039 --> 00:38:17,239
Now who knows? Who knows? I wouldn't be so inflated

656
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,280
as to say that. But the book certainly is a

657
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,719
counsel of resistance and delight in a very difficult time.

658
00:38:24,519 --> 00:38:29,239
And so what the book is full of is stories,

659
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:34,199
myths and ideas that are both Christian and probably in

660
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:38,159
you know, wider traditions like fairy tales. But the premise

661
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:42,360
all the way through is how do these what do

662
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:46,760
these stories have to say about envy? What do they

663
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,679
have to say about passivity? What do they have to

664
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:53,400
say about sex. What do they have to say about

665
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,559
you know, passion, and on and on and on and

666
00:38:57,599 --> 00:38:59,800
so for me, as you can see by us to

667
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:02,440
all king, I'm somebody a bit of a slippery salmon

668
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,519
in my thought process. But this book is not like that.

669
00:39:05,559 --> 00:39:10,280
This book is surprisingly Anglo Saxon in its discipline, in

670
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:12,800
the sense that you can go to a particular chapter.

671
00:39:13,639 --> 00:39:19,239
Let me have a look, now, Okay, yeah, there'd be

672
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,960
a chapter on death, there'd be a chapter on guilt,

673
00:39:22,039 --> 00:39:25,239
there'd be a chapter on limit, which for me, limit

674
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:27,760
is really interesting. That's part of the joy for me

675
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,599
of Orthodoxy is I think we live in a culture

676
00:39:30,639 --> 00:39:34,480
which is all about feasting and never about fasting, and

677
00:39:34,559 --> 00:39:37,880
I've been a loyal proponent of that indulgence my whole life.

678
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,559
So Orthodoxy is hugely useful for giving me something much

679
00:39:41,559 --> 00:39:44,960
bigger than me to bang up against. And finally, the book,

680
00:39:45,159 --> 00:39:48,760
the fifteenth chapter is about our capacity to make praise,

681
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,840
to be praise makers. If you know you'll know this.

682
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:56,320
In the old Celtic description of a saint, they said, well,

683
00:39:56,519 --> 00:39:59,039
if nothing else, you felt different after you'd been in

684
00:39:59,079 --> 00:40:04,400
the presence of a saint. The world felt freer, more creative,

685
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,679
and there was more possibility about your imagination had largened

686
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:12,360
at that moment. William Blake always says Jesus is the imagination.

687
00:40:13,039 --> 00:40:15,039
It's a great line from Blake. He says, you can't

688
00:40:15,039 --> 00:40:17,920
be an art you can't. You can't be a Christian.

689
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:22,239
If you're not an artist, you can't be. And what

690
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,079
he means by that is not that you have to

691
00:40:24,079 --> 00:40:29,760
get the watercolors out, really, but that your head is bigger.

692
00:40:30,119 --> 00:40:34,840
You know, your head is bigger. You see the lustrous

693
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,840
strangeness of this world that he says is good is

694
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,280
very good, and it is a very good world. A

695
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,400
lot about my work, a lot about the book is

696
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:47,880
about moving your vision from seeing things to beholding things.

697
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:52,320
So it's in that romantic spirit, but it's also an

698
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,760
urgent book. Took three years to write. The whole time

699
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,719
I know you, I've been reading writing it. In fact,

700
00:40:59,559 --> 00:41:04,239
there's an abandoned chapter on job which you're in. I

701
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,920
describe there was a night that I remember very fondly

702
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:09,559
when you and I were getting to know each other,

703
00:41:10,039 --> 00:41:13,159
and we sat there with smoking enormous cigars and drinking

704
00:41:13,199 --> 00:41:16,320
guinness in Dublin. Do you remember on Saturday night. It

705
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:18,440
was kind of wild, like drunk. There was a lot

706
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:19,639
of glass.

707
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,519
Speaker 2: There, bottled against thrown and it was a wild Yeah,

708
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:23,400
it was wild.

709
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:26,559
Speaker 1: And so you're in. You're you're in there, You're in

710
00:41:26,559 --> 00:41:29,440
the version. So if anybody pre orders, you get the

711
00:41:29,519 --> 00:41:32,639
hidden chapter on job which is not in the book

712
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:35,239
with Jonathan's in it. Come on, you've got it. You've

713
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:36,840
got to back your brother here, you've got to buy

714
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:37,400
the book to read.

715
00:41:37,559 --> 00:41:39,280
Speaker 2: That's ready to re ordered the book.

716
00:41:42,039 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 1: There's also one of my wild drawings as well that

717
00:41:45,079 --> 00:41:47,679
you get as a free download. So that's what the

718
00:41:47,679 --> 00:41:50,159
book is about, literatures of the wild. It would be

719
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:56,360
very useful for Christians that are feeling their way into symbology,

720
00:41:56,559 --> 00:42:00,039
feeling their way into myth and going, okay, is this

721
00:42:00,199 --> 00:42:03,519
a guy I trust that can walk me into this

722
00:42:04,159 --> 00:42:08,360
whilst my faith remains, you know, ever deepening. It's a book,

723
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,480
But on the other hand, it's a book also for

724
00:42:11,599 --> 00:42:15,159
many many people that are only just now even beginning

725
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:20,119
to the glimpse the possibility of Christianity saying, have a

726
00:42:20,119 --> 00:42:24,079
look at this. The most important thing is in any

727
00:42:24,119 --> 00:42:27,440
real way, it's not selling anything. It's just not selling anything.

728
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:29,960
You just won't get that from me. I don't sell

729
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,920
in that fashion. You know, there'll be enthusiasm, but that's

730
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,719
not the same thing as the cold eyed the cold

731
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:41,159
eyed seller, you know. So it's I'm really proud of it.

732
00:42:41,159 --> 00:42:43,000
I'll tell you what, Jonathan, I've just been in a

733
00:42:43,039 --> 00:42:47,320
small dark room recording the audio for three and I'll

734
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,440
tell you what. If you can't stand by. If you

735
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,239
can't stand by the book, you're going to find out

736
00:42:54,039 --> 00:42:56,599
in those three days, you're just going to hit a wall.

737
00:42:58,119 --> 00:42:58,519
Speaker 3: In it.

738
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 1: There was someone from Aenguin who I never met, never

739
00:43:02,079 --> 00:43:06,599
saw them. They were just a disembodied voice in my headphones,

740
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:11,000
listening from another part of the world for mistakes. So

741
00:43:11,119 --> 00:43:16,199
every now and then I just suddenly hear croissant. Croissant

742
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:25,400
saw me parent, you know, telescope telescope. You know, when

743
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,360
you're reading one hundred pages a day, that's not a

744
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,639
natural thing for anybody to do, even a storyteller. So

745
00:43:32,679 --> 00:43:35,039
I'm really pleased with it. It's probably the only book

746
00:43:35,039 --> 00:43:37,960
in the world that has endorsements from Gaba Matte and

747
00:43:38,079 --> 00:43:39,719
Rodrea on the on.

748
00:43:39,679 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 5: The same background. So I'm pleased about that, you know, And.

749
00:43:44,119 --> 00:43:47,840
Speaker 4: Are they Let's say, is Penguin framing it as a

750
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:51,360
as a Christian book or a here's here's.

751
00:43:51,079 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 1: Some amazing information for you. We've been talking for a

752
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,480
few years now about a kind of Christian renaissance, but

753
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:01,559
publishers may be int in that, but the rubber has

754
00:44:01,599 --> 00:44:05,880
to hit the road with statistics. And this book, Literatures

755
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:10,239
of the Wild, is launching in the UK a wonderful

756
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:15,239
new imprint of Penguin called ebrey Vine and ebra Vine

757
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:19,239
is explicitly Christian, and Litagures of the World is one

758
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:22,159
of several books they're launching it with, and they have

759
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:26,800
a whole bunch of statistics about, you know, the the

760
00:44:27,119 --> 00:44:33,679
phenomenal increase in young people, especially buying bibles, you know,

761
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:35,760
the whole It would have been talked about a lot

762
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,639
on your podcast already, but yes, just to let you know,

763
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:44,800
it is unadorned in its Christianity. But I'm pleased to

764
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:49,159
say there wasn't one adject they never there's no adjective

765
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:54,119
taken out, there's no clip clipping, there's no neatness. The

766
00:44:54,159 --> 00:44:57,119
only thing that they paid real attention to. They had

767
00:44:57,119 --> 00:44:59,360
a wonderful editor, but the things she paid attention to

768
00:44:59,599 --> 00:45:04,079
was I herself said, I'm new to mythology, walk me

769
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:07,320
through it, you know, keep holding my hand from beginning

770
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:09,960
to end. And I wouldn't be famous for that. So

771
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,360
if you're new to this, this will be a bridge

772
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:13,840
of a book.

773
00:45:15,079 --> 00:45:15,599
Speaker 2: That's great.

774
00:45:15,679 --> 00:45:17,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, and in some ways it I mean, is it

775
00:45:18,079 --> 00:45:20,280
Is it the first book that you've written since you're

776
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:22,000
a conversion or was there a book before?

777
00:45:22,039 --> 00:45:24,199
Speaker 2: There was a book of the story of your of your.

778
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,039
Speaker 1: They're a little thing I did. I did a translation

779
00:45:27,159 --> 00:45:31,519
of The Back Eye, but that was I wrote that

780
00:45:31,599 --> 00:45:35,639
before before the conversion. I wrote a little book called

781
00:45:35,679 --> 00:45:38,599
Stag Cult that was around that period of time. But

782
00:45:38,679 --> 00:45:41,280
it's been the big project. It's been the thing that

783
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:47,000
I've been laboring on. And I have Yeah, I have

784
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:50,079
Rod Drea to thank actually for that, because Rod sort

785
00:45:50,119 --> 00:45:53,840
of outed me to the entire world at a very

786
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,880
tentative point in my conversion experience. And one of the

787
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:00,039
positive things of which there have been many about that,

788
00:46:00,639 --> 00:46:04,039
was that his publisher at the time and his editor

789
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:07,159
became interested in the story, which led to the book

790
00:46:07,199 --> 00:46:07,800
getting written.

791
00:46:08,199 --> 00:46:10,159
Speaker 5: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

792
00:46:10,199 --> 00:46:12,039
Speaker 2: And now it's been three years.

793
00:46:12,159 --> 00:46:16,199
Speaker 4: You know, there's been We've had a lot of people

794
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:19,119
kind of appearing, you could say, coming out of the

795
00:46:19,159 --> 00:46:23,400
mist appearing. And so what's your vision and what do

796
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:27,239
you see coming forward? Do you feel like they're you know,

797
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:29,480
because there is a obviously, there are people going back

798
00:46:29,519 --> 00:46:31,320
to church, there are people buying the Bibles, you know,

799
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,360
But do you do you sense that there is a

800
00:46:34,519 --> 00:46:39,519
deeper vision, that that there are enough people Christians that

801
00:46:39,599 --> 00:46:42,519
are able to kind of see it as more than propositional,

802
00:46:42,599 --> 00:46:44,519
as a as a kind of almost like as a

803
00:46:44,559 --> 00:46:45,239
mythic vision.

804
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. The the most interesting symbolic world episode I've seen

805
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:54,320
for a while is the one with you and Deacon

806
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,000
Serafin as we shall now you know, oh blue Eyes

807
00:46:57,039 --> 00:46:59,679
as I like to call him, You and blue Eyes

808
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:05,760
talking about American religion and what happens when you focus

809
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:09,559
emphatically on a born again experience and that becomes the

810
00:47:09,599 --> 00:47:13,159
pivot for everything else. Because, as we all know, anybody

811
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:15,480
that's ever been a Christian, if you remained in that

812
00:47:15,559 --> 00:47:19,119
state the whole time, you'd be a nervous wreck. Even

813
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:22,400
Hildegarde Bob von Bingen needed a day off, I'm telling you,

814
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,840
you know. So what do you do when it's not

815
00:47:26,159 --> 00:47:28,280
like that? What do you do when you're in the

816
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,960
territory of Jonathan Cross, and it's a great idea. You know,

817
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:35,400
you'll feel God most acutely when he's absent, or he

818
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:40,039
feels to be absent. So in other words, I appreciate

819
00:47:40,119 --> 00:47:42,760
the excitement and the spirit of the moment. To make

820
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:47,039
a distinction between spirit and soul, Spirit is very much

821
00:47:47,119 --> 00:47:50,400
the sense of possibility, but soul is the dip into

822
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:53,400
something that has to be sustainable and long term. So

823
00:47:53,559 --> 00:47:58,159
I couldn't I couldn't say quite what is going on

824
00:47:58,519 --> 00:48:05,199
in England. Protestant Christianity is in a very very strange position.

825
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:07,800
It doesn't really it's they've sold the farm. Really, they

826
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:09,960
don't barely know what they are, although I have lots

827
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:13,840
of Protestant friends and some wonderful Anglican priests very close

828
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:17,760
to me. So on the one hand, you have something

829
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:21,639
becoming compost and needing to be composted and then the

830
00:48:21,679 --> 00:48:25,239
green shoots can come. And on the other hand you

831
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:30,840
have this phenomenal uptake of interest in things like Orthodoxy,

832
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:35,199
which have never ever really showed their face, not in

833
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:37,760
my lifetime, not in any real way. We did have

834
00:48:38,159 --> 00:48:43,960
the wonderful Metropolitan you calistos Ware and Metropolitan Anthony. But

835
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:47,800
by and large, this is a new energy and it's

836
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:51,519
it's different colors, you know, visually, the power of the icons,

837
00:48:51,559 --> 00:48:55,000
et cetera. I've just been with our mutual pal, dear

838
00:48:55,039 --> 00:49:00,599
Heather Pollington. She's so great, isn't She's rage is our

839
00:49:00,639 --> 00:49:04,039
whole family that everyone's so adorable. I want to commend you,

840
00:49:04,199 --> 00:49:07,719
Jonathan for the amazing people that you have around you.

841
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,960
I just I was thinking about it the other day again.

842
00:49:11,039 --> 00:49:17,360
My second favorite Symbolic World episode. It's so genius is

843
00:49:17,679 --> 00:49:18,840
pirates and monks.

844
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:23,800
Speaker 2: Of course you would like that, my whole heart.

845
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:26,519
Speaker 1: And you said, such a fantastic thing and it you said,

846
00:49:26,599 --> 00:49:31,639
you said pirates arragents of disruption, monastics arragents of continuity.

847
00:49:32,039 --> 00:49:35,519
But you're who is your amazing friend Andrew?

848
00:49:35,559 --> 00:49:36,840
Speaker 2: You have never met, are you?

849
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:39,599
Speaker 1: Andrew? On a number of occasions. But Andrew has the

850
00:49:39,679 --> 00:49:42,519
voice of one hundred year old man. That where does

851
00:49:42,519 --> 00:49:44,519
that accent come from?

852
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:44,920
Speaker 2: You know?

853
00:49:45,119 --> 00:49:48,519
Speaker 4: His it's actually his accent is because when he was

854
00:49:48,599 --> 00:49:53,599
young he had a speech impediment. Oh and what he

855
00:49:53,639 --> 00:49:56,800
did is he developed a way of speaking with which

856
00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:00,480
was almost singing, which was rhythmic. And that is how

857
00:50:00,519 --> 00:50:03,559
he was able to get beyond his speech impediment and

858
00:50:03,639 --> 00:50:06,719
learn to speak normally. But that left in him this

859
00:50:07,079 --> 00:50:10,920
very peculiar accent. And what's wild about it is that

860
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:12,280
he's the only person.

861
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,119
Speaker 2: In the world that has that accent. His children have

862
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:15,880
that accent.

863
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:17,800
Speaker 1: How glorious.

864
00:50:18,039 --> 00:50:21,039
Speaker 4: There's gonna be a there'll be a goldline of English

865
00:50:21,039 --> 00:50:23,159
that will develop downstream from him.

866
00:50:23,599 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 1: Well, if I'm not concentrating, I think he's English. I

867
00:50:27,519 --> 00:50:29,719
just think he's rich, you know. But it is. It's

868
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:32,679
like some straight I imagine he went to a very

869
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:37,880
odd private school on the borders of Wales with only

870
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:41,280
five students, you know, and one guy called, you know,

871
00:50:41,559 --> 00:50:44,920
Dr Cornelius, who just taught by candlelight, you know, and

872
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:49,880
just gave him deep esoteric wisdom. But it but Andrew

873
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:54,119
and Deacon Seraphin and the wider on somebody, it's just

874
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:58,440
so amazing. It's so, isn't it. I Mean, if we

875
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:00,400
think for a minute about the notion of the shame,

876
00:51:01,159 --> 00:51:05,320
it's such a senseless act of beauty symbolic world, because

877
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:08,760
you are doing this Sarkedo move where you're making something

878
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:11,440
that is beautiful and useful and nourishing to thousands of

879
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:15,440
people with the very mechanics that can seem so dreadful.

880
00:51:16,079 --> 00:51:17,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have to be honest with you, Martin.

881
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 4: I feel gratitude every day when I think of you,

882
00:51:21,119 --> 00:51:23,000
when I think of Paul, when I think of Andrew,

883
00:51:23,039 --> 00:51:24,599
when I think of the concern for him and Heather.

884
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:29,199
In some ways, my entire life I suffered in silence

885
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:32,079
in the hopes that I could have people like that

886
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:36,639
around me, and without even without doing it on purpose,

887
00:51:36,679 --> 00:51:41,719
almost it happened without my direct action. I feel like

888
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:44,559
now I have these this amazing band of friends that

889
00:51:44,639 --> 00:51:47,679
are that I really want what's true and beautiful and good.

890
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:51,079
Speaker 1: I always have that feeling from you that when we're

891
00:51:51,079 --> 00:51:55,679
together you handle things really lightly, and I mean that

892
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:57,800
in a good way. I don't see you. I don't

893
00:51:57,800 --> 00:51:59,880
see you as a sort of a Grendel or a

894
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:02,639
my pressures, my precious, you know, I don't see that.

895
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:08,079
I see you just being open. I sort of slightly amazed, because,

896
00:52:08,159 --> 00:52:11,239
like me, we haven't come into this as children. You know,

897
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:14,239
you and I are not bounding around in our early thirties.

898
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:17,320
We're like becoming old fellas. You know, we're becoming old fellas,

899
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:20,039
which is why storytelling is so important because you can't

900
00:52:20,039 --> 00:52:22,920
be a decent storyteller til you're about sixty five. Anyway,

901
00:52:24,119 --> 00:52:26,079
there's good news for all of us. But I just

902
00:52:26,199 --> 00:52:30,840
wanted to slip that in. How I want to slip

903
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:33,760
in again this notion for anybody that's wondering, you know,

904
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:37,199
be an angel in the machine. You know, just find

905
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:41,199
your way to keep turning the current towards grace and beauty,

906
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:42,880
and these things are going to be very good for

907
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:43,360
your health.

908
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:46,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's I mean, that is so important because it

909
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:49,760
you know, even myself, I can feel moments in myself

910
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:53,440
when I feel jaded, when I feel cynical, and you know,

911
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:56,079
there's anger at how at the direction some of the

912
00:52:56,079 --> 00:52:58,760
directions of the world is in. But it's true that

913
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:03,360
everything that life giving is there in the celebration is there.

914
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:07,480
And finding those sparks, you know, and and these stories,

915
00:53:07,559 --> 00:53:10,320
you know, the stories that you the Grayil story you know,

916
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:13,719
and the stories in your book, there are little places.

917
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:16,239
Speaker 1: Where we can remember what it is you we're here for,

918
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:19,400
you know, Thank you. I've just led a pilgrimage to Walsingham,

919
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:22,800
which is a very merry and I told blind tobit.

920
00:53:23,599 --> 00:53:26,800
So I'm now doing a big oral storytelling of Blind Tobit.

921
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:30,960
I've been telling Ruth and Naomi. I've been telling Joseph

922
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:33,639
in the Underworld. I've been telling Jacob and Esau, which

923
00:53:33,679 --> 00:53:36,840
is a mind blower. Wait you wait to see me

924
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:39,719
with my teeth into Jacob and esl the hairy boy,

925
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:44,159
you know, yes, and then and then I sort of

926
00:53:44,159 --> 00:53:46,400
get to Jacob's well, and then we've got the women

927
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:48,599
and you know, the woman at the wall. Anyway, it's

928
00:53:48,639 --> 00:53:53,000
just glorious. So I'm strongly suspecting that my next body

929
00:53:53,039 --> 00:53:55,519
of work, God willing I have a long life, will

930
00:53:55,599 --> 00:53:59,239
be to just start at Genesis and pursue Wow.

931
00:53:59,599 --> 00:54:02,800
Speaker 2: That, oh God would be so precious. Wouldn't that be amazing.

932
00:54:03,159 --> 00:54:05,880
I really hope that that's what you do next. That

933
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:09,000
would be wonderful. Thank you well, Martin, thank you so

934
00:54:09,079 --> 00:54:10,960
much for everything you do.

935
00:54:11,159 --> 00:54:13,360
Speaker 4: And uh, and I can't wait for the next moment

936
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:15,360
that we're having another Guinness together.

937
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:18,239
Speaker 1: Well we will be, because I am going to be

938
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:21,920
with you next month in London. Yes, and tell me

939
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:25,920
about that, because I'm a chair, I'm your chair that evening.

940
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:29,199
So you said, no, I'm kidding. Uh, it's not that

941
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:31,559
kind of chair. I'm just kind of posting the thing

942
00:54:31,599 --> 00:54:33,920
for Temenos. What are you doing? What are you up

943
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:34,599
to in England?

944
00:54:35,119 --> 00:54:37,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I mean I'm going I was going there

945
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:42,280
for meetings and then people at Temenos Academy. The Teminos

946
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:45,079
Academy for people don't know, is King Charles one of

947
00:54:45,159 --> 00:54:49,280
King Charles's foundations. Uh, you know, it's a it's a foundation.

948
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:53,320
It's kind of like neoplatonic Christianity, a desire to to

949
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:56,920
to have a deeper corner kind of metaphysical vision of Christianity.

950
00:54:56,920 --> 00:54:58,239
And so they reached out to me. I know you've

951
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:01,880
spoken there with there before. And what I want to

952
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:05,360
do is I want to talk about microcosm and macrocosm.

953
00:55:05,639 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 2: You know, because we use it as a theory.

954
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:11,239
Speaker 4: People talk about it, but often it's said without being

955
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:14,159
looked at and without people being able to see the

956
00:55:14,199 --> 00:55:17,159
examples and how they play out fractically in the person.

957
00:55:17,679 --> 00:55:19,920
And so hopefully I'll have a crowd that we'll be

958
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:22,800
able to sustain a little more of a high brow

959
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:26,679
discussion on that question. And so yeah, so people should come.

960
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:32,800
It's it's January twenty eighth, twenty eighth.

961
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:35,519
Speaker 5: That thing let's figure this out.

962
00:55:35,679 --> 00:55:36,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, get it right.

963
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:39,760
Speaker 5: You very rarely get me looking at a computer.

964
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:44,599
Speaker 1: You no fashion thought it is twenty seventh, Tuesday, the

965
00:55:44,639 --> 00:55:45,639
twenty seventh.

966
00:55:46,039 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 4: It's the twentieth, yes, okay, all right, so it's the

967
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:51,360
twenty seventh, yes, okay, so yeah, so it is. It's

968
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:54,880
January the twenty seventh in London. We'll put a link

969
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:57,360
also in the description if you want to want to join,

970
00:55:57,400 --> 00:55:58,679
and so there are a lot of great things you

971
00:55:58,679 --> 00:56:04,320
can participate in order Martin's book. We wanted to hit

972
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:06,320
the best seller list, and if you pre order it,

973
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:07,920
that's how that's how that happens.

974
00:56:08,039 --> 00:56:11,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, believe it, believe it or not, it could happen.

975
00:56:13,079 --> 00:56:16,000
And you you fellas could you know you could do that,

976
00:56:16,679 --> 00:56:19,400
could do it. That'd be amazing thing. Yeah, so pre

977
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:20,000
order the book.

978
00:56:20,119 --> 00:56:23,639
Speaker 4: Sign up also for the Grail week where we're all

979
00:56:23,639 --> 00:56:27,159
going to sit and uh and and have some whiskey sit.

980
00:56:27,119 --> 00:56:29,440
Speaker 1: With yeah yeah, yeah, every night. I've got the cigar

981
00:56:29,559 --> 00:56:32,280
and the whiskey. Already good.

982
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,400
Speaker 5: All right, Thank you you, Martin, pleasure everybody.

983
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:39,199
Speaker 4: If you enjoy these videos and podcasts, please go to

984
00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:41,960
the Symbolic world dot com website and see how you

985
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:45,079
can support what we're doing. There are multiple subscriber tiers

986
00:56:45,119 --> 00:56:48,039
with perks. There are apparel in books to purchase. So

987
00:56:48,159 --> 00:56:50,559
go to the Symbolic World dot com and thank you

988
00:56:50,599 --> 00:56:51,320
for your support.