WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:02.680 So I had this like existential crisis. I guess I 2 00:00:02.799 --> 00:00:04.559 just sort of came to terms with who I was 3 00:00:04.639 --> 00:00:07.440 in that moment and I decided to stay in. 4 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:10.279 Hey, this is Remco. Thanks for clicking on the video. 5 00:00:10.480 --> 00:00:13.000 This is my brand new podcast called facey As, in 6 00:00:13.000 --> 00:00:15.439 which I talked to the most interesting people in poker 7 00:00:15.640 --> 00:00:18.559 and go a little deeper into the topics you most 8 00:00:18.600 --> 00:00:22.800 care about. Enjoy Welcome to face the ace to podcast. 9 00:00:22.920 --> 00:00:26.120 Today I'm joined by Alex Livingston, two time Braceles winner 10 00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:29.280 Main Event Final Table under his belts has another deep 11 00:00:29.359 --> 00:00:32.200 run as well, with lots of stories to get into today. 12 00:00:32.520 --> 00:00:35.359 Please if you like the show, like the video, subscribe 13 00:00:35.359 --> 00:00:37.759 to a channel, leave a comment, and make some suggestions 14 00:00:37.799 --> 00:00:40.960 for guests. Alex, we're in the middle of the main 15 00:00:41.159 --> 00:00:44.119 as we're recording this. Yeah, this event, of course, you know, 16 00:00:44.159 --> 00:00:46.119 I don't even have to go over it, but has 17 00:00:46.240 --> 00:00:50.280 so much special meaning to you, especially as your career 18 00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:55.280 is sort of defined by two deep runs every year. 19 00:00:55.320 --> 00:00:57.840 You walk back into the main event and you see 20 00:00:57.880 --> 00:00:59.640 the room, you see the players. What are some of 21 00:00:59.640 --> 00:01:01.039 the first things that come back to mind? 22 00:01:01.280 --> 00:01:03.640 Well, I mean, obviously I'm a little biased by the 23 00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:05.480 fact that I've had those deep runs. But to me, 24 00:01:05.560 --> 00:01:07.920 the Main Event has always just been a very very 25 00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:12.239 special tournament. There's just a different buzz in the room, 26 00:01:13.040 --> 00:01:15.879 you know, it's everything about the Main really. I always 27 00:01:15.920 --> 00:01:19.239 like tournaments that have deeper, slower structures. I like having 28 00:01:19.400 --> 00:01:21.599 lots of big blinds and room to maneuver. But I mean, 29 00:01:21.599 --> 00:01:24.519 of course, the Main it just attracts all the top 30 00:01:24.560 --> 00:01:27.680 pros for the most part. And then you know everyone 31 00:01:27.719 --> 00:01:30.400 around the world who just has this dream of winning 32 00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:33.319 the biggest tournament poker, and you have all these like leagues, 33 00:01:33.359 --> 00:01:36.120 you know, they'll they'll have thirty guys and they'll send 34 00:01:36.120 --> 00:01:38.000 one player to the Main every year. I played with 35 00:01:38.000 --> 00:01:40.079 a guy who was coming from one of those leagues 36 00:01:40.079 --> 00:01:43.359 at my table yesterday, and so it's just this amazing 37 00:01:43.359 --> 00:01:46.799 collection of players, and there's everyone's just truly, truly happy 38 00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:47.200 to be there. 39 00:01:47.920 --> 00:01:51.280 Is it an advantage having gone deep twice for those 40 00:01:51.519 --> 00:01:55.040 living under a rock? Third in twenty nineteen for four million, 41 00:01:55.400 --> 00:01:58.719 and then thirteenth back in I Got to get This 42 00:01:58.840 --> 00:02:02.159 right twenty thirteen for four and fifty k Is it 43 00:02:02.159 --> 00:02:05.480 an advantage having done that twice? Or is it perhaps 44 00:02:05.519 --> 00:02:09.479 also mentally becoming a big hurdle because you know how 45 00:02:09.479 --> 00:02:11.000 insane it is to go on those runs. 46 00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:14.199 Definitely just purely an advantage. I would say both because 47 00:02:14.759 --> 00:02:17.000 I'm comfortable with you know. So the first time I 48 00:02:17.039 --> 00:02:19.479 went deep, I kind of struggled to sleep and eat 49 00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:22.719 properly on the last few days. And then the second time, 50 00:02:22.759 --> 00:02:24.400 because I'd done it once, I think I was much 51 00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:27.879 more comfortable. So for me just being at the table, 52 00:02:27.919 --> 00:02:30.680 I'm more relaxed and comfortable. I don't feel any extra burden, 53 00:02:30.680 --> 00:02:33.080 you know. Of course, I think I will go deep 54 00:02:33.080 --> 00:02:35.000 again at some point. I hope to win at some point. 55 00:02:35.080 --> 00:02:37.439 I mean, I know it seems unrealistic, but that's if 56 00:02:37.479 --> 00:02:38.919 you don't think you can win and want to win, 57 00:02:38.960 --> 00:02:43.280 then why play. But I don't feel any extra pressure 58 00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:46.000 to have another result like that. I just I just 59 00:02:46.120 --> 00:02:48.639 want to And then you know, now with the app, 60 00:02:48.680 --> 00:02:50.599 players can look up who's at their table, so people 61 00:02:50.599 --> 00:02:52.120 will look me up and they'll see the two runs, 62 00:02:52.159 --> 00:02:53.960 and I think that, you know, for a casual player, 63 00:02:53.960 --> 00:02:56.840 there's a little extra intimidation. So my big thing in 64 00:02:56.840 --> 00:02:58.680 the main is, you know, one of the best ways 65 00:02:58.719 --> 00:03:00.360 to pick up chips is just raised and still blinds 66 00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:02.240 and if people are just folding their big blind a 67 00:03:02.280 --> 00:03:04.120 little bit more to you, or just not three bidding 68 00:03:04.120 --> 00:03:05.479 you quite as much out of the small blind. You 69 00:03:05.479 --> 00:03:06.680 know that goes a long way. 70 00:03:07.039 --> 00:03:10.159 Do you try to figure out who's aware of you 71 00:03:10.199 --> 00:03:12.199 and your resume? Do you try to sort of get 72 00:03:12.240 --> 00:03:16.039 those early reads, perhaps through conversation, because there's definitely an 73 00:03:16.039 --> 00:03:17.560 advantage to be had there. Yeah. 74 00:03:17.599 --> 00:03:19.520 Well, I always like to talk to people at the table. 75 00:03:19.680 --> 00:03:21.639 It's not like I talk every single time, you know, 76 00:03:21.879 --> 00:03:24.159 minute I'm playing, but I do. I'm pretty social at 77 00:03:24.199 --> 00:03:27.719 the table, and I'm certainly not going to ask someone 78 00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:29.280 do you know who I am? But like sometimes people 79 00:03:29.319 --> 00:03:31.000 will just say something to me, or they'll ask me 80 00:03:31.039 --> 00:03:34.599 about my run, So then that I register that. I've 81 00:03:34.599 --> 00:03:38.120 always looked at poker as talk to people, get to 82 00:03:38.159 --> 00:03:39.919 know who they are as a person, and then figure 83 00:03:39.919 --> 00:03:41.560 out who they're going to be as a player based 84 00:03:41.599 --> 00:03:43.159 on who they are as a person. So I actually 85 00:03:43.159 --> 00:03:45.560 try to sort of solve the strategy that they're going 86 00:03:45.599 --> 00:03:49.479 to employ without looking at the poker decisions. That's that's 87 00:03:49.560 --> 00:03:50.919 just always been my thought process. 88 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:53.159 Can you give an example of that or how that 89 00:03:53.199 --> 00:03:54.560 comes into practice? Sometimes? 90 00:03:54.879 --> 00:03:56.719 Yeah, I mean even just the way. You know, there's 91 00:03:56.719 --> 00:03:58.599 all these things you can you've read about maybe in 92 00:03:58.639 --> 00:04:00.759 older books, like the way people still their chips like 93 00:04:00.800 --> 00:04:02.879 a tighter players are going to stack them much more 94 00:04:02.919 --> 00:04:05.520 like organized and then you know, looser players they'll be 95 00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:07.439 a little more splashy. But you know, you just get 96 00:04:07.479 --> 00:04:10.800 to learn. Maybe you get an idea of the type 97 00:04:10.800 --> 00:04:13.800 of upbringing somebody had and how they're going to You know, 98 00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:17.199 maybe they are more of a disciplined person, so you 99 00:04:17.279 --> 00:04:21.240 just expect less light three bets. Maybe they have a 100 00:04:21.240 --> 00:04:22.720 bit of an ego and they want to show off 101 00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:25.360 to people, so you expect that they're willing to show 102 00:04:25.439 --> 00:04:27.120 up with a big bluff and a huge spot, and 103 00:04:27.199 --> 00:04:28.720 you can you can make that read because you know 104 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:30.279 they want a table the bluff in your face. There's 105 00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:32.279 some people who you three bet them twice in a row. 106 00:04:32.279 --> 00:04:34.160 They're going to take it very personally and stuff like that. 107 00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:37.399 And I just find by talking to people, you get 108 00:04:37.399 --> 00:04:39.319 an idea of people's tendencies, and then you can always 109 00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:41.639 adjust once you see a showdown. You know, you can 110 00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:44.079 always say, okay, well maybe I was wrong, but I 111 00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:46.360 would rather start with coming from a place of assuming 112 00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:47.959 everyone's going to play the way I think they will 113 00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:49.879 and then be willing to amit when I'm wrong. 114 00:04:50.040 --> 00:04:52.680 When you had your first run, you had six total 115 00:04:52.759 --> 00:04:55.959 live cashes when you cast for four hundred and fifty 116 00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:58.639 one thousand, which is kind of crazy to look back. 117 00:04:58.519 --> 00:05:02.079 On or false O WSP cashes maybe. 118 00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:04.040 No total cashes I'm seeing here on your hand in 119 00:05:04.120 --> 00:05:08.000 MOB Yeah, I'm looking at it. Wow. Yeah it was nine, 120 00:05:08.040 --> 00:05:10.079 you had one, In eleven you had three, and then 121 00:05:10.120 --> 00:05:13.079 twenty thirteen you had two just prior to the w 122 00:05:13.199 --> 00:05:14.240 CP in Barcelona. 123 00:05:14.319 --> 00:05:16.600 So I guess I wasn't much of a tournament player. Yeah, 124 00:05:16.639 --> 00:05:20.079 I've always been. I guess when I would say it 125 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:23.079 started to become more of a tournament player was after COVID. Actually, 126 00:05:23.319 --> 00:05:25.480 so even in my run in twenty nineteen, I wasn't 127 00:05:25.519 --> 00:05:27.399 much of a tournament player. But yeah, I guess in 128 00:05:27.399 --> 00:05:30.600 twenty thirteen I was even even raw that I thought. 129 00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:34.160 Yeah, so my statement I wanted to make true or 130 00:05:34.160 --> 00:05:37.839 false that result had a bigger impact on your poker 131 00:05:37.879 --> 00:05:41.040 career than the third place finish. 132 00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:43.759 I think that's fair. Yeah, I think that's fair. Although 133 00:05:43.800 --> 00:05:45.480 when I had the third place finish, I was kind 134 00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:48.560 of down swinging prior, and so it was it was 135 00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:51.879 massive as well, but in terms of maybe building my confidence, 136 00:05:52.360 --> 00:05:55.199 that one in twenty thirteen was really important and led 137 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:58.639 me to play more tournaments certainly, But you know, it 138 00:05:58.680 --> 00:06:02.720 really wasn't until I guess twenty twenty two that I 139 00:06:02.759 --> 00:06:04.759 would say I kind of became a full time tournament 140 00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:07.000 player for a few years. And now I'm pivoting back 141 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:08.360 to a bit of a mix. 142 00:06:08.680 --> 00:06:11.560 So take us back prior to the score in twenty thirteen, 143 00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:14.800 where were you at mentally, where were you at stakes wise? 144 00:06:15.040 --> 00:06:18.439 And how did that score fit into your poker career 145 00:06:18.480 --> 00:06:19.279 at that point. 146 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:22.879 Yeah, twenty thirteen was a pretty cool year because, like, 147 00:06:22.959 --> 00:06:25.560 just from a personal level, I went to Africa for 148 00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:30.240 the first time with my mom. She's incredible. She volunteers 149 00:06:30.279 --> 00:06:34.920 in Rwanda and works with the antissiologists there and she's 150 00:06:34.959 --> 00:06:36.680 done a lot of amazing things and she had been 151 00:06:36.680 --> 00:06:40.199 going every year. So I finally went with her and 152 00:06:40.279 --> 00:06:42.319 volunteered in orphanage for a month, and then I went 153 00:06:42.319 --> 00:06:44.920 and climbed Mount Kilmanjarro, and then I went and lived 154 00:06:44.920 --> 00:06:47.040 in Barcelona for three months, played poker every day. So 155 00:06:47.079 --> 00:06:49.879 it was a really cool, immersive kind of year I 156 00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:53.560 was having, but I certainly wasn't super established poker wise. 157 00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:56.439 I was playing two four no limit in Barcelona and 158 00:06:56.480 --> 00:06:58.920 I was doing reasonably well, but you know, I didn't 159 00:06:58.920 --> 00:07:01.519 have a big bang roll by any means. Now, I 160 00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:04.160 sold a bunch for that twenty thirteen man, so you know, 161 00:07:04.199 --> 00:07:06.439 I didn't pocket the whole four fifty by any means. 162 00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:09.040 But it was the first time that I now had 163 00:07:09.040 --> 00:07:11.680 a six figure bankroll. I think maybe I had briefly 164 00:07:11.720 --> 00:07:14.360 had right around six figures before that, but this was 165 00:07:14.399 --> 00:07:16.680 like definitely a huge moment. 166 00:07:16.759 --> 00:07:19.639 At that point in time twenty thirteen, which I you know, 167 00:07:19.720 --> 00:07:23.600 vivibly remember because that was also when poker still seemed 168 00:07:24.079 --> 00:07:27.680 like a real opportunity for people. As now it comes 169 00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:29.800 with so many more caveats because of how much stuff 170 00:07:29.800 --> 00:07:32.519 for the game has gotten an online. It's just so 171 00:07:32.600 --> 00:07:35.040 different from what it was back then. Did you have 172 00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:38.120 a sense or an outlook back then on what poker 173 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:40.279 would mean in the compts of your life? What was it, 174 00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:43.040 you know, just a train station along the way, or 175 00:07:43.279 --> 00:07:45.240 was it perhaps the final destination? How did you look 176 00:07:45.240 --> 00:07:45.519 at it? 177 00:07:45.560 --> 00:07:47.720 Well, it's funny because there was times when I thought 178 00:07:47.759 --> 00:07:49.839 to myself well, by the time I turned twenty eight, 179 00:07:49.879 --> 00:07:51.600 I'll be doing something else. By the time I turned thirty, 180 00:07:51.639 --> 00:07:53.480 I'll be doing something And then I've kind of stopped 181 00:07:53.480 --> 00:07:55.879 thinking that at this point. Like I think, at that 182 00:07:55.920 --> 00:07:57.959 point it was unclear if poker was what I want 183 00:07:58.000 --> 00:07:59.360 to do for the rest of my life. But I'd 184 00:07:59.399 --> 00:08:02.759 been doing it for five or six years and you know, 185 00:08:02.959 --> 00:08:05.639 getting by, so I certainly enjoyed it, but I wasn't 186 00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:07.680 sure it was going to be necessarily a full time career. 187 00:08:07.800 --> 00:08:09.720 So then we'd go one step further back to two 188 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:12.360 thousand and nine. The story that I'd love for you 189 00:08:12.439 --> 00:08:14.560 to share with us, and what you remember of it 190 00:08:14.600 --> 00:08:18.879 is the misflight in Amsterdam, and then how that became 191 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:21.920 sort of pivotal to perhaps a moment of reflection and 192 00:08:21.959 --> 00:08:25.199 perhaps some introspection on what you wanted to do. Yeah, 193 00:08:25.279 --> 00:08:26.240 take us back to that trip. 194 00:08:26.360 --> 00:08:29.199 That was a good one. So two thousand and nine, 195 00:08:29.399 --> 00:08:32.960 I have just taken a year off of college. I 196 00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:36.240 had completed three years at this point, so I was 197 00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:39.320 supposed to go back for my fourth year. But because 198 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:41.320 I took the year off, like all the guys in 199 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:44.000 my class had already graduated, so I was going to 200 00:08:44.039 --> 00:08:46.159 be socially. It was give me a little bit different 201 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:49.039 and so on. Right before I was supposed to go 202 00:08:49.120 --> 00:08:52.559 back to school, I was playing poker at Foxwoods and 203 00:08:52.639 --> 00:08:54.720 I just got this idea and I just messaged my 204 00:08:54.759 --> 00:08:57.080 friend and I said we were talking about doing a 205 00:08:57.080 --> 00:09:00.480 trip together. And I was like, why don't we go 206 00:09:00.519 --> 00:09:03.399 to Europe? And he was like, okay, I'm in. How 207 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:07.480 old were you at this point? I was twenty one? Yeah, 208 00:09:07.720 --> 00:09:10.320 I was yeah, so he was in. You know. We 209 00:09:10.960 --> 00:09:15.879 was impulsive, obviously, and our idea was to do Paris. 210 00:09:16.840 --> 00:09:22.080 I think we went to Switzerland for a couple of days, 211 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:25.399 and then Amsterdam was the final stop. 212 00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:26.799 And Rome. 213 00:09:27.279 --> 00:09:29.879 Yeah, Rom, Sorry, wasn't Switzerland. Okay, we flew into room. 214 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:33.720 You know better than me this, This is really embarrassing. Okay, 215 00:09:33.720 --> 00:09:35.600 so no, we flew into Rome. This is what happened. 216 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:36.720 We went to Rome, We went to room for a 217 00:09:36.759 --> 00:09:39.159 couple of days. Then we made our way over to 218 00:09:39.519 --> 00:09:42.519 Paris and we were having so much fun that we 219 00:09:42.559 --> 00:09:45.159 decided to fly our friend into Paris to meet us. 220 00:09:45.200 --> 00:09:47.519 We booked him his ticket. We didn't tell him about it. 221 00:09:47.639 --> 00:09:49.200 We just booked him a ticket. We sent him an 222 00:09:49.240 --> 00:09:51.480 email that just said travel light and had his itinerary 223 00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:53.519 and he met us there and we had these like signs, 224 00:09:53.559 --> 00:09:55.440 you know, the signs like the drivers get at the airport. 225 00:09:55.679 --> 00:09:57.639 We made signs for him. We had like sunglasses, and 226 00:09:57.639 --> 00:09:59.159 we like wore suits and stuff, and we picked them 227 00:09:59.200 --> 00:10:01.399 upt the airport and went to Paris for a couple 228 00:10:01.399 --> 00:10:03.960 of days, and then with him we went to Amsterdam. 229 00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:08.000 Amsdam is obviously amazing city. When you're twenty two, it's 230 00:10:08.080 --> 00:10:11.080 like super fun. And the last night we went to 231 00:10:11.080 --> 00:10:14.080 a place called Supper Club, which is like kind of 232 00:10:14.120 --> 00:10:17.440 a dining slash show experience type thing. The three of 233 00:10:17.519 --> 00:10:23.519 us went and we got pretty drunk, quite drunk. I 234 00:10:23.519 --> 00:10:27.080 think I was maybe throwing rocks outside or something like that. 235 00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:30.879 There's some It was not like a great night. But 236 00:10:32.919 --> 00:10:34.960 by the end of it we go to hotel room 237 00:10:34.960 --> 00:10:36.919 and I'm supposed to fly back to Boston the next 238 00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:42.000 morning to complete my last year of college. And obviously 239 00:10:42.039 --> 00:10:44.159 I slept through this flight. I mean, this was probably 240 00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:47.639 top five drunk this night of my life. I don't 241 00:10:47.639 --> 00:10:49.639 know how I ever thought I was going to make 242 00:10:49.679 --> 00:10:51.559 a nine am flight wake up and then I have 243 00:10:51.639 --> 00:10:53.320 It's like now it's ten am. I've missed a flight. 244 00:10:53.399 --> 00:10:56.240 I have this panic attack and I'm like, okay, guys, 245 00:10:56.279 --> 00:10:57.639 I missed my flight. What am I going to do? 246 00:10:57.840 --> 00:11:00.679 And they're like they're hungover. They're like, look, I think 247 00:11:00.679 --> 00:11:02.120 we're going to stay here, like at least a few 248 00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:04.759 more days, and you can either stay with us or 249 00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:07.440 you can go home. So I had this like existential crisis, 250 00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:09.919 but I wasn't really that motivated to go back to 251 00:11:09.960 --> 00:11:11.679 school anyway. It was like one of those things where 252 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:13.519 I was spending more time on the golf course or 253 00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:16.360 watching high stakes poker poker after dark than I was 254 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:19.759 like devoting any time to school. So I guess I 255 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:21.639 just sort of came to terms with who I was 256 00:11:21.679 --> 00:11:24.519 in that moment, and I decided to stay. And then 257 00:11:24.559 --> 00:11:27.600 we ended up staying for three months, and we had 258 00:11:27.720 --> 00:11:31.159 we were short on cash, so we had like money, 259 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:32.519 but you know, we was in our bank accounts and 260 00:11:32.559 --> 00:11:34.000 it was hard to access it while we were there. 261 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:37.399 We were short on physical euros, and no one would 262 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:39.200 rent a place to us for three months without us 263 00:11:39.240 --> 00:11:40.919 paying all the rent upfront because we're just a bunch 264 00:11:40.919 --> 00:11:43.360 of twenty two year old kids and we're from another country, 265 00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:46.320 and they didn't, so so we ended up having to 266 00:11:46.360 --> 00:11:47.919 go to the casino with the three of us and 267 00:11:47.960 --> 00:11:50.399 like try to spin it up the first couple of 268 00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:52.879 days just so we could get the place. And you know, 269 00:11:53.279 --> 00:11:55.440 one of our friends ended up playing in the PLO game. 270 00:11:55.440 --> 00:11:58.200 And I wish I was courageous enough to try the 271 00:11:58.200 --> 00:11:59.759 PILO game back then, because there was a two four 272 00:11:59.840 --> 00:12:01.440 NoHo limit that went every day, and then a five 273 00:12:01.559 --> 00:12:05.000 to ten PLO and the five ten PLO looked incredible, 274 00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:06.720 but I didn't know PLO at all. But he want 275 00:12:06.759 --> 00:12:08.639 a bunch of money in the PLO that got us 276 00:12:08.720 --> 00:12:10.000 enough to pay the rent. We had a little bit 277 00:12:10.039 --> 00:12:11.799 left over to grind with and we made it work. 278 00:12:11.960 --> 00:12:14.039 That's such an incredible story. Yeah, And it's such a 279 00:12:14.759 --> 00:12:17.600 such a great memory of like an inflection point into 280 00:12:17.639 --> 00:12:19.600 where poker became a huge part of your life. 281 00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:21.120 I think they had that. If I had to say 282 00:12:21.120 --> 00:12:23.039 when did I turn pro, it would be that morning, 283 00:12:23.080 --> 00:12:25.600 because that was when I decided, because I had this 284 00:12:25.679 --> 00:12:28.080 whole backup plan. I was going to go back to school. 285 00:12:28.120 --> 00:12:29.440 I had a job line up. I had met a 286 00:12:29.440 --> 00:12:32.159 guy on a cruise ship who were playing blackjack on 287 00:12:32.200 --> 00:12:33.440 the cruise ship and He just saw the way I 288 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:35.919 was working the chips and the decisions, and he saw 289 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:38.480 that my brain was good with this stuff, and he said, 290 00:12:38.519 --> 00:12:39.639 what do you do for a living? I said, I 291 00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:41.639 play poker, but I'm in school and he said, well, 292 00:12:41.639 --> 00:12:43.559 how would you like to be a day trader? So 293 00:12:43.840 --> 00:12:45.960 I guess it was just a couple months before Amsterdam. 294 00:12:46.039 --> 00:12:48.480 I had gone and done a five to seven days 295 00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:52.200 something like that internship in New York, and they had 296 00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:54.679 basically said, look, if you go back to school, you 297 00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:57.240 get better grades and you quit poker, we have a 298 00:12:57.360 --> 00:12:59.279 job for you. And it was a pretty cool opportunity. 299 00:12:59.320 --> 00:13:01.159 It was like they said, like the top guy in 300 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:03.559 the firm was making three million a year, but maybe 301 00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:06.559 the tenth guy was only making fifty k year. So 302 00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:08.200 it was one of those things where if you were 303 00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:09.879 good at it and you worked hard, there was a 304 00:13:09.960 --> 00:13:13.039 huge upside. But that morning, when I didn't end up 305 00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:14.879 going back to college, it was pretty clear I was 306 00:13:14.919 --> 00:13:16.720 not going down that route. So I'd say, that's like 307 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:17.559 when I became a pro. 308 00:13:17.720 --> 00:13:20.159 Yeah, I know you're really tight with your mom and 309 00:13:20.200 --> 00:13:22.200 you already alluded it to it, like traveling to Africa 310 00:13:23.679 --> 00:13:28.240 when a sun is in a good university and has 311 00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:31.879 prospects of a career where the upside is clearly very 312 00:13:32.039 --> 00:13:34.799 very high, and you're a smart guy. How does the 313 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:37.159 conversation go saying like no, no, no, I just you know, 314 00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:38.840 we spun it up at hold them and we're paying 315 00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:41.480 three months rent up front. Yeah, I'm now a poker player. 316 00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:44.279 Yeah. Well, so I had I've an aunt and uncle 317 00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:45.840 i'm really close with as well, and I have my mom, 318 00:13:45.879 --> 00:13:48.759 and I had to tell all three of them that 319 00:13:48.759 --> 00:13:50.720 that I was not going back to school, and it 320 00:13:50.759 --> 00:13:52.559 was definitely a difficult conversation at the time. But I 321 00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:54.879 think as I've come to have success, like everyone's kind 322 00:13:54.919 --> 00:13:57.919 of recognized that it's it's been a good move. I 323 00:13:57.919 --> 00:14:00.399 think my you know, my mom at this point is 324 00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:02.799 kind of come to terms with it. But I always 325 00:14:02.840 --> 00:14:04.240 thought that I would be a good teacher, that I 326 00:14:04.279 --> 00:14:07.080 could excel in some other jobs. And of course now 327 00:14:07.159 --> 00:14:09.159 I do some other things too, with commentating and coaching, 328 00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:12.240 So it's kind of good to to have a little 329 00:14:12.279 --> 00:14:14.879 bit of diversity to what I do rather than just 330 00:14:14.919 --> 00:14:16.639 be a full time poker player forever. 331 00:14:17.240 --> 00:14:19.759 When someone works on that nine to five there there 332 00:14:19.840 --> 00:14:22.720 is very sort of basic conversation with with parents and 333 00:14:22.759 --> 00:14:25.360 friends because you know, everyone has a job. Yeah, but 334 00:14:25.399 --> 00:14:27.960 then when you take a career outside of that, that's 335 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:31.639 very non traditional. There's a lot of hand hand holding 336 00:14:31.960 --> 00:14:35.240 when it comes to you know, explaining people stuff or 337 00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:38.120 not explaining them things, or maybe giving them more insights 338 00:14:38.159 --> 00:14:40.559 or less insights. How did you balance that as you 339 00:14:40.600 --> 00:14:43.480 sort of progressed and then you know, culminating with them 340 00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:45.320 maybe the deep run in the main where you can 341 00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:47.799 maybe sort of show off in a different way that like, 342 00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:50.039 I think I made the right decision. Did you have 343 00:14:50.120 --> 00:14:51.759 to sort of work that out and figure that. 344 00:14:51.679 --> 00:14:54.879 Out just in terms of like how, I well, how 345 00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:55.480 you had. 346 00:14:55.360 --> 00:14:56.639 You know, your mom and your aunt and uncle come 347 00:14:56.679 --> 00:14:58.519 to terms with the fact that you know, this is 348 00:14:58.519 --> 00:14:59.840 something that they did not expect. 349 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:03.320 Yeah. I think the tournament results helped, right, So, like 350 00:15:03.519 --> 00:15:05.519 when they could see the tournament result in twenty thirteen, 351 00:15:05.559 --> 00:15:07.679 because it's funny you can win consistently in cash games 352 00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:11.279 but they can't really see it, and seeing that was like, wow, Okay, 353 00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:14.000 he can actually make some real money here. And I 354 00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:17.679 think just time as well helped everyone kind of understand 355 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:20.360 that it was what was making me happy and was 356 00:15:20.360 --> 00:15:22.759 working for me and that it's not a lot of 357 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:24.679 people just think of it as gambling and they have 358 00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:28.000 certain connotations in their head. I mean, we've all anyone 359 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:29.960 who works in the gambling world in any capacity, I'm 360 00:15:29.960 --> 00:15:33.759 sure has has had judgment from some people. But yeah, 361 00:15:34.200 --> 00:15:39.080 just kind of time and consistency. 362 00:15:39.759 --> 00:15:42.320 So then you put in the time and you are 363 00:15:42.360 --> 00:15:46.279 consistent and you work really hard. The score that you 364 00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:48.080 had and you didn't have all of yourself, how did 365 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:50.600 that change things? Was there certain stakes in order to 366 00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:52.559 try and you did. Did it motivate you to work harder? 367 00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:54.480 I know that your tournament career didn't really take off 368 00:15:54.519 --> 00:15:57.360 until later, so it almost seems as though it was like, 369 00:15:57.480 --> 00:15:59.200 you know, back to normal after that. 370 00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:01.480 Yeah, it was just back to normal, to be honest. 371 00:16:01.519 --> 00:16:04.200 I did have a phase actually online where I was 372 00:16:04.200 --> 00:16:06.679 a tournament player, but I was never really a full 373 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:11.759 time live tournament player again until post COVID. I just 374 00:16:12.039 --> 00:16:15.240 always found cash games were fun and engaging, and I 375 00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:17.360 was pretty good at them, and I started I guess 376 00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:19.360 after that twenty thirteen score, maybe I got more into 377 00:16:19.399 --> 00:16:21.759 PLO and a little bit more into mixed games, but 378 00:16:21.799 --> 00:16:23.879 I had already been playing some of both of those things, 379 00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:28.919 so it wasn't maybe as monumental. It was certainly validating, 380 00:16:28.960 --> 00:16:32.559 and in terms of like the outside world, you know, 381 00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:35.759 it was validating with family and all that. But I 382 00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:37.960 don't think it changed things as much as you might think. 383 00:16:37.960 --> 00:16:39.840 I didn't really move up too much in stakes. I 384 00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:41.879 was kind of just I just had like a cushier 385 00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:45.000 bankroll now to play cash games. And it's interesting because 386 00:16:45.039 --> 00:16:47.360 that it didn't really make me think I was a 387 00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:49.559 great tournament player by any means. And I still think 388 00:16:50.080 --> 00:16:55.240 the main event is a unicorn tournament, so like, I 389 00:16:55.240 --> 00:16:57.320 don't think the skill set to be a great just 390 00:16:57.399 --> 00:17:00.000 no one at tournament player necessarily always translates over to 391 00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:04.720 the best main event players. I would sometimes take, like, 392 00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:07.599 let's say, a live cash player who plays two five 393 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:11.000 or five ten and has like a ton of experience 394 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:13.519 playing with the types of players you're going to play 395 00:17:13.519 --> 00:17:15.559 with in these fields, I would take them over some 396 00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:18.400 high stakes online tournament players. And I know I'll get 397 00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:21.680 pushed back from that from the high stakes community, and 398 00:17:21.759 --> 00:17:24.359 I understand that the high stakes players are more technical 399 00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:27.279 and more studied and probably going to be a lot 400 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:30.559 better in ICM. In some of those late game situations. 401 00:17:31.039 --> 00:17:33.279 But I do think that there is kind of a 402 00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:35.799 specific skill set for the main that maybe is a 403 00:17:35.839 --> 00:17:37.960 little bit more transferable to cash games, and so maybe 404 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:39.559 that's why, you know, having a score in the main, 405 00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:41.880 I just felt like it was like almost like another 406 00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:42.680 cash game in a way. 407 00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:45.039 You know, I've been fortunate enough to do commentary with 408 00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:48.000 you on PLO, and I'll be the first to admit that, 409 00:17:48.200 --> 00:17:50.200 you know, I love to do the play by play, 410 00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:53.519 yet you know, my PLO knowledge definitely is is just 411 00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:56.440 good enough to ask some good questions every now and then, 412 00:17:57.559 --> 00:18:00.359 but to me to sort of hear you say all 413 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:03.359 this and then the progression You may to play all 414 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:08.200 the games, win a stud bracelet win mixed game events 415 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:11.160 like all over the place, and still have sort of 416 00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:13.960 this humble approach to your approach versus how some of 417 00:18:13.960 --> 00:18:16.319 the top pros are doing it. It almost seems like 418 00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:21.400 there's some disconnect between you fully appreciating how good you 419 00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:22.039 are at the game. 420 00:18:23.079 --> 00:18:25.440 Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think I'm confidence 421 00:18:25.480 --> 00:18:26.599 is one of the things that can come and go. 422 00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:30.160 So I've been in kind of a rougher stretch, i'd say, 423 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:32.920 for the last year year and a half. I do 424 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:34.440 still think I'm very good. I think my a game 425 00:18:34.519 --> 00:18:37.160 is very good, and I'm just trying to find more 426 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:39.880 ways to play it. But I would say I've always 427 00:18:39.880 --> 00:18:41.759 had a unique approach to the game. I would say 428 00:18:41.799 --> 00:18:47.039 that I definitely believe in study, and I believe in 429 00:18:47.400 --> 00:18:50.079 solidifying your technical skills, and maybe I could do a 430 00:18:50.119 --> 00:18:52.799 little bit more of that some of the time, but 431 00:18:53.480 --> 00:18:55.480 I think there's so much more to playing high level 432 00:18:55.519 --> 00:18:59.160 poker than that, And so it's that classic classic like 433 00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:02.079 technical versus x plointative. Obviously the best players do both. 434 00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:05.519 There's other categories to like table presence and just like 435 00:19:05.680 --> 00:19:07.880 mental game and all that stuff, and the best players 436 00:19:07.880 --> 00:19:11.599 have all of it. But I find my results are 437 00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:15.920 best when I'm having fun and thinking creatively, and so yeah, 438 00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:18.440 I will make plays that maybe are very outside of 439 00:19:18.440 --> 00:19:20.519 the box, particularly in an event like the main event. 440 00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:24.680 The runs in hold them have sort of paid the bills, 441 00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:28.000 if you will, and then you have obviously you have 442 00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:30.839 a p low bracelet also. But the love and the 443 00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:34.839 passion for mixed games is not the I guess, from 444 00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:38.039 a poker sense, the recommended approach, because there's less volume, 445 00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:42.279 they are smaller, smaller, prize pools, and there's also usually 446 00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:46.920 a well studied competition, especially at the highest stakes. Is 447 00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:49.599 it just how much you're enjoying those games in an 448 00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:51.839 atmosphere that drives you to those games, or is there 449 00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:52.319 something else? 450 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:54.599 First and foremost come from I love playing those different games. 451 00:19:54.640 --> 00:19:56.480 I love the stud games in particular. They're so fun. 452 00:19:56.519 --> 00:19:58.640 They're the only games where you can see part of 453 00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:02.839 your opponent's hand. There are games of partial information, and 454 00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:06.559 if you're paying attention and really like studying the way 455 00:20:06.599 --> 00:20:09.720 people play their upcards and then also remembering the dead cards, 456 00:20:10.039 --> 00:20:12.319 you can gain a pretty big advantage. But yeah, I 457 00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:15.240 don't know that I would say that the competition is 458 00:20:15.279 --> 00:20:18.039 harder in mixed games. You know, yes, there are some 459 00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:21.400 very well studied players, but for instance, something like twenty 460 00:20:21.400 --> 00:20:23.200 five k horse versus something like a twenty five k 461 00:20:23.319 --> 00:20:25.759 Nolimit event, I think you could argue that the horse 462 00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:28.400 event is going to be a bit softer just because 463 00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:30.480 the no limit players at the top are are so 464 00:20:30.519 --> 00:20:32.920 well studied and there's so many of them, and there 465 00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:35.119 are fewer people at least that I think are taking 466 00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:38.880 that super disciplined, rigorous approach with mixed games. I mean this. 467 00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:41.519 For instance, this ten K eight game that just went on. 468 00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:43.400 It was good timing, it was right around the main event, 469 00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:46.599 but it was plenty of complete unknowns and it was 470 00:20:46.599 --> 00:20:50.359 a very nice field. No result for me, but you 471 00:20:50.359 --> 00:20:51.920 can't be a results already to win them all. 472 00:20:52.039 --> 00:20:56.599 Yeah. Is there perhaps too much name respect in mixed games? 473 00:20:56.720 --> 00:20:59.839 Probably because the thing for me, and you know, I'll 474 00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:01.720 call myself poker media, even though I find it a 475 00:21:01.720 --> 00:21:06.000 bit of a tough term, we often hang on to 476 00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:08.720 all these names and they are always in the mixgin furnaments. 477 00:21:08.759 --> 00:21:10.440 You pick up any result of a ten K mix 478 00:21:10.519 --> 00:21:14.519 game and it's just all sounds very impressive. Yeah, Are 479 00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:17.839 are the names just not living up to the hype? 480 00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:20.599 What? Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily say. What I would say 481 00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:24.559 is this, right, is people have their idea of who 482 00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:27.559 the best one hundred players are, who the best twenty 483 00:21:27.559 --> 00:21:29.319 five mix game players are. They have this idea in 484 00:21:29.319 --> 00:21:32.079 their head. Maybe they don't have a Google sheet with rankings, 485 00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:34.880 but they have a general idea. Right. But on any 486 00:21:35.119 --> 00:21:38.160 given day, a quote unquote bad player can play better 487 00:21:38.200 --> 00:21:40.640 than a quote unquote good player. So if you're not 488 00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:43.680 bringing your this is what I've always give the example 489 00:21:43.720 --> 00:21:45.960 of I think Jeremy Osmas as someone brings at least 490 00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:48.440 his B game to the table pretty much every time 491 00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:51.079 he sits down, and I think that's few and far between. 492 00:21:51.319 --> 00:21:53.319 So I think there are some great players, but you 493 00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:55.599 might catch them on their C game, or you might 494 00:21:55.640 --> 00:21:57.079 be not as good of a player, but you're on 495 00:21:57.119 --> 00:21:58.519 a run and you're on your A game. So I 496 00:21:58.519 --> 00:22:01.279 think the rankings are kind of in lu And yeah, 497 00:22:01.400 --> 00:22:03.640 I mean if the names you're talking about, I'm sure 498 00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:06.079 a lot of them are definitely just great players. But 499 00:22:06.119 --> 00:22:08.359 some of them also maybe they're backed and they're just 500 00:22:08.440 --> 00:22:10.599 they've been playing these tournaments forever and they're buried. You know, 501 00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:13.559 you never really know what someone's results are. Everyone's gonna 502 00:22:13.559 --> 00:22:15.559 have their own opinions on who the best players are, 503 00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:17.759 who the worst players are. That's what's great about the game, 504 00:22:17.799 --> 00:22:19.200 and that's what keeps everyone coming back. 505 00:22:19.240 --> 00:22:21.279 It'd be way way better to go viral if I 506 00:22:21.279 --> 00:22:22.920 asked you to name all the terrible players. 507 00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:24.519 I don't I don't know if we should do that. 508 00:22:24.759 --> 00:22:27.160 Would that would do well? I mean off the record. 509 00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:30.880 But instead what I'll do is, you know, reference for 510 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:34.279 fifty K run this year, which of course iconic event. Yeah, 511 00:22:34.359 --> 00:22:36.480 has so much history to it. It's the only event 512 00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:39.599 in mixed games that has the kind of history. But 513 00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:42.279 I'm curious, you know this this year Benny Glasser one, 514 00:22:42.680 --> 00:22:45.680 ri A second, Idy got third. Who are some of 515 00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:48.319 the players in that type of atmosphere, that kind of 516 00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:50.759 arena that really stand out to you, that impress you 517 00:22:50.839 --> 00:22:54.240 and perhaps point out some things about them or their 518 00:22:54.279 --> 00:22:55.920 game that you remember. 519 00:22:56.400 --> 00:22:58.599 I'll start with those three, I guess. I think Benny 520 00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:01.519 is without a doubt one of the best overall mixed 521 00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:04.480 game players in the world. You know, he's proven it 522 00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:06.640 time and time again. I think this is his ninth bracelet. 523 00:23:07.079 --> 00:23:09.640 I think that's right, n Y, Yeah, it's up anyway, 524 00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:13.799 it's it's a big number. He plays online live clearly 525 00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:17.960 just very well studied, very very accomplished player. Josh Aria, 526 00:23:18.119 --> 00:23:20.519 I think, is someone who was less technical than some 527 00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:22.960 of the other guys, but just has a tremendous feel 528 00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:25.960 for the game. So just really really good instincts and 529 00:23:26.200 --> 00:23:29.559 very competitive person. And you know, somebody I really enjoy 530 00:23:29.640 --> 00:23:32.079 hanging out with a friend of mine. And then Phil Ivy, 531 00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:36.000 I mean, yeah, he's the goat, right, so's it all 532 00:23:36.039 --> 00:23:37.680 started with Phil Ivey. I mean, he was my first 533 00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:41.319 hero when I was watching you know, poker back and 534 00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:42.960 I went to a boarding school actual for the last 535 00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:46.000 years of high school, and I just remember being in 536 00:23:46.039 --> 00:23:48.400 like our lounge watching World Series of Poker two thousand 537 00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:51.559 and three Phil Ivy with the Steve Francis Jersey, and 538 00:23:51.960 --> 00:23:53.599 you know, I'd look at that as kind of like 539 00:23:53.720 --> 00:23:56.519 why I wanted to get into poker. So yeah, it's 540 00:23:56.559 --> 00:23:58.920 it's cool that he's back here competing because he he 541 00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:00.960 kind of goes on and off somedy, he'll take time off. 542 00:24:01.640 --> 00:24:04.440 It seems like he's he's locked in again and ready 543 00:24:04.440 --> 00:24:07.799 to really compete a high level and poker's just better 544 00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:11.440 when he's in the mix. And then so other players 545 00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:13.400 in the fifty k that I think are I mean, 546 00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:15.920 there's so many, right, It's I mean, Nick, are. 547 00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:18.559 There are there specific things you see or you know, 548 00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:21.720 is it too like you know, he makes one extra 549 00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:24.720 bet in some spots, or is it perhaps something more 550 00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:28.279 holistic on how they approach that type of setting that 551 00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:30.720 makes them stand out because you mentioned, you know, Aria 552 00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:33.920 and Ivy, they are coming from that fuel background. The 553 00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:36.720 results have been super impressive, But is there a way 554 00:24:36.759 --> 00:24:40.000 to perhaps quantify feel through the lens of how you 555 00:24:40.039 --> 00:24:40.599 see the game. 556 00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:44.720 To me, someone who has great feel is just acting 557 00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:52.319 purely off of instinct and they're not fighting themselves on 558 00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:56.279 a decision, right, Because if you take a technical player, 559 00:24:56.359 --> 00:24:58.519 especially someone who mostly plays online, and you sit them 560 00:24:58.519 --> 00:25:02.160 down live, they I might think to themselves, this guy's 561 00:25:02.519 --> 00:25:04.759 doing something that feels weird to me. I think I 562 00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:08.200 need to play an exploitative style to adjust to that 563 00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:11.759 decision that this player is making. But then they have 564 00:25:11.799 --> 00:25:13.799 to go through this whole brain solve in their head 565 00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:17.920 of well, if he's five percent two wide here, then 566 00:25:18.200 --> 00:25:20.640 how many pips down can I go for value on 567 00:25:20.680 --> 00:25:23.519 my three bets? And it takes up a lot of 568 00:25:23.559 --> 00:25:27.839 brain energy trying to solve all that, whereas somebody like 569 00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:31.359 Ivy or the Grinder, they're not thinking on that level. 570 00:25:32.119 --> 00:25:35.640 They're just reacting based off of instincts, based off of 571 00:25:35.680 --> 00:25:37.640 all the poker they play in their life, and they're 572 00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:40.400 making they're often coming to actually better conclusions on how 573 00:25:40.440 --> 00:25:44.640 to exploit without any of that internal struggle. So to me, 574 00:25:44.759 --> 00:25:45.960 that's what a great field player is. 575 00:25:46.039 --> 00:25:48.599 It's it's honestly the most fascinating topic for me and 576 00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:52.319 poker to talk about field players because it's so relevant 577 00:25:52.359 --> 00:25:55.559 these days where everyone is studying so much. Yeah, because 578 00:25:55.599 --> 00:25:58.559 back in the day, feel was the only way to win. 579 00:25:59.480 --> 00:26:01.680 When we watch we all watch the same stuff. When 580 00:26:01.720 --> 00:26:04.480 you watch that stuff, it's all about making reads. Yeah, 581 00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:07.920 I feel like it comes up in conversation making reads 582 00:26:08.359 --> 00:26:11.640 or you know, trying to you know, use feel or 583 00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:14.960 use instinct. But at the same time, the emphasis is 584 00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:19.519 so much on the studying part. How do you sharpen 585 00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:20.079 your feel? 586 00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:24.039 Hessee? I think sharpening your feel is something you do 587 00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:27.119 away from the table in a non studious way. So 588 00:26:27.240 --> 00:26:30.359 whether it's for me, it's doing things that put me 589 00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:35.599 in flow state, like skiing or hiking or golfing, you know, 590 00:26:35.839 --> 00:26:39.279 anything where I'm not on my phone. To me, that's 591 00:26:39.319 --> 00:26:41.759 how you sharpen your feel. It's it's kind of a 592 00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:43.960 thing that can't be taught though, in my opinion, So 593 00:26:44.319 --> 00:26:48.720 that's why you can be a great poker mind and 594 00:26:48.799 --> 00:26:50.839 you know what like And again it's not to take 595 00:26:50.839 --> 00:26:53.000 anything away from the from that type of player, because 596 00:26:53.960 --> 00:26:56.559 feel has its limitations. And this happened to me. I 597 00:26:56.720 --> 00:26:59.200 was crushing plo cash for many years and then you 598 00:26:59.240 --> 00:27:01.839 know around twenty eight ten, twenty nineteen, I found myself 599 00:27:01.880 --> 00:27:04.359 when when I wasn't the best player at the table, 600 00:27:04.359 --> 00:27:06.519 when there were a couple more studied players, I was 601 00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:09.039 struggling against them because they're obviously much more balanced and 602 00:27:09.039 --> 00:27:11.799 they're not giving away as much and I was a 603 00:27:11.880 --> 00:27:14.720 little bit technically raw. So then I started studying a lot. 604 00:27:14.759 --> 00:27:16.279 And I think studying is still really good of your 605 00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:19.960 field player because it helps hone your baselines. But can 606 00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:22.119 you teach feel? I don't know. I mean, you can 607 00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:26.519 definitely do things, probably mindset stuff, exercise, all that stuff's 608 00:27:26.519 --> 00:27:29.079 going to help you. But I think some people inherently 609 00:27:29.119 --> 00:27:32.079 have more of that quality than other people. Just like 610 00:27:32.440 --> 00:27:34.359 some people are inherently going to be better at studying 611 00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:36.720 the technical side, there's some people who for whom their 612 00:27:36.759 --> 00:27:40.680 brain cannot process the technical side. Obviously, the best players 613 00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:42.759 probably have the brain that can kind of do a 614 00:27:42.759 --> 00:27:45.319 little bit of both. I mean, the classic example for 615 00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:50.160 me would be Mateos, who has just immaculate feel, but 616 00:27:50.319 --> 00:27:53.720 is also extremely diligent and well studied and has that 617 00:27:53.799 --> 00:27:55.680 like logical side of his brain going, and then on 618 00:27:55.720 --> 00:28:00.640 top of that has amazing table presence and does everything 619 00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:02.680 I mean, he just he literally does everything you want 620 00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:04.359 to do to succeed as a as a high sticks 621 00:28:04.400 --> 00:28:05.720 poker player, and that's why he's at the top. 622 00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:09.039 What's stopping you from being there and doing that? 623 00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:12.359 That's a good question, I would say. So I got 624 00:28:12.400 --> 00:28:16.319 engaged recently, and you know, we haven't decided we're gonna 625 00:28:16.359 --> 00:28:17.920 have kids, but it's a possibility. We have a couple 626 00:28:17.960 --> 00:28:22.240 of dogs, you know. Yeah, No, i'd like to it's 627 00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:26.759 balancing life with poker. I think to really get to 628 00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:28.920 the very top, you need to be completely kind of 629 00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:31.440 obsessive with poker. And I am sure some of these 630 00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:33.279 guys who are the top also have families, so I 631 00:28:33.319 --> 00:28:36.359 can't just use that as a crutch. But I have 632 00:28:36.759 --> 00:28:40.079 sort of shifted some of my It's not to say 633 00:28:40.119 --> 00:28:41.319 I would never want to try and do that. I 634 00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:43.200 think in No Limit it's fair to say I would 635 00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:45.119 never really try to get to that level just because 636 00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:47.359 I feel like I'm at a big enough disadvantage in 637 00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:49.920 terms of like the highest stakes no limit stuff like 638 00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:52.160 playing against the Mattaoss and the Chidwicks and all the 639 00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:54.359 guys who have been doing it for so long. But 640 00:28:54.640 --> 00:28:57.720 I do want to be the best mixed game tournament 641 00:28:57.720 --> 00:29:00.960 player or the best PLO tournament player, and there's probably 642 00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:04.359 more I could be doing behind the scenes to get 643 00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:06.799 up to that speed. But then you know, I'm also 644 00:29:06.839 --> 00:29:09.559 mixing that with kind of a newfound love for commentating. 645 00:29:09.799 --> 00:29:13.240 So commentating is really fun as someone who's done a 646 00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:15.519 lot of it. I don't know why they keep asking me, 647 00:29:15.559 --> 00:29:18.200 but I love it again. But one of the things 648 00:29:18.200 --> 00:29:21.839 that I love about doing commentary with you, it's almost 649 00:29:21.880 --> 00:29:24.480 as if I'm in a coaching session, but it's kind 650 00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:27.279 of very natural. You're not laying it on too thick, 651 00:29:27.519 --> 00:29:30.720 but you always seem to have a response or a reaction, 652 00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:33.200 and your mind works so quick, and you know you 653 00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:34.960 and I have done PLO, so that's my sort of 654 00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:36.440 point of reference. And I've watched a lot of your 655 00:29:36.440 --> 00:29:39.559 trident and stuff. But what I find so interesting is 656 00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:43.960 that when I listen to you, I wonder, you know, 657 00:29:44.279 --> 00:29:46.279 what else is there that you would need to add 658 00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:48.759 in order to get better, because it seems as though 659 00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:51.079 you sort of always have the answer. Is there then 660 00:29:51.119 --> 00:29:55.720 a disconnect between application and what you know when the 661 00:29:55.759 --> 00:29:57.279 information has just presented you in that way? 662 00:29:57.400 --> 00:30:00.799 Yeah, I think I think Alex Fox and tweet something recently, 663 00:30:01.079 --> 00:30:04.440 or said something recently in an interview, whatever it was 664 00:30:04.680 --> 00:30:08.119 about how the difference between a great player and a 665 00:30:08.119 --> 00:30:10.000 world class player, or a good player and a great player, 666 00:30:10.039 --> 00:30:15.440 whatever it was, is just all execution. And I believe 667 00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:19.480 that for sure. You know, I think it's way easier 668 00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:21.160 from the booth when you can see the cards and 669 00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:25.440 you know there's always some amount of variance. But I 670 00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:26.960 try not to harp on that. I try not to 671 00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:29.160 use that as a crutch. Ever. I know, for a 672 00:30:29.160 --> 00:30:31.200 while one of my leaks was when I got short 673 00:30:31.240 --> 00:30:35.640 on chips, I didn't have the same commitment to making 674 00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:37.920 every decision as well as I could as when i've 675 00:30:37.960 --> 00:30:39.880 I've always been very comfortable playing a big stack. I 676 00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:41.880 know that some people have the opposite, where they're actually 677 00:30:41.960 --> 00:30:44.079 very comfortable grinding a short stack because they the decisions 678 00:30:44.079 --> 00:30:46.559 are kind of clean, and then they get like uncomfortable, 679 00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:47.960 they feel pressure when they have a big stack. That's 680 00:30:47.960 --> 00:30:49.480 never been the case for me. I always want to 681 00:30:49.480 --> 00:30:52.000 have a big stack. So maybe this year I found 682 00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:53.960 myself even kind of leaning back into some old traits 683 00:30:53.960 --> 00:30:56.400 where when I get short on chips, I'm just not 684 00:30:56.839 --> 00:31:00.240 quite as patient as I need to be. And you know, 685 00:31:00.319 --> 00:31:03.000 for whatever reason, this has been kind of a flat 686 00:31:03.160 --> 00:31:05.920 WSP with the exception of that PPC cash. It's been 687 00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:09.000 disappointing because I played all most of the ten case 688 00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:11.759 certainly not all of them, but you know, to not 689 00:31:11.799 --> 00:31:15.759 cash any ten case so far is not great and 690 00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:17.480 I have a pretty good record in those over the 691 00:31:17.559 --> 00:31:21.480 years before that, so I have to maybe just you know, 692 00:31:21.559 --> 00:31:23.599 reflect on it after the series, although still in the 693 00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:26.400 main event. I got some one fifty k in the 694 00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:28.880 main after yesterday, so maybe if I can just save 695 00:31:28.920 --> 00:31:30.799 it for that one, then I'll forget about all those 696 00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:31.240 other ten. 697 00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:32.880 Case at least, you know, you know how to do 698 00:31:32.920 --> 00:31:33.680 the trick in that event. 699 00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:36.000 Yeah, And I mean I looked at my table drop 700 00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:38.799 for tomorrow. Looks great, So I feel pretty good about the. 701 00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:44.759 Main Is there a room for adrenaline in decision making 702 00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:48.920 in the stakes that you play? And is adrenaline something 703 00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:51.359 that you can either sort of accept or or step 704 00:31:51.400 --> 00:31:54.680 away from? Is it an advantage or disadvantage? I feel 705 00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:58.240 like it's not often talked about enough as to how 706 00:31:58.279 --> 00:32:01.480 it really feels to be in big decisions. 707 00:32:01.960 --> 00:32:05.799 Yeah, adrenaline is crazy, right, because it just keeps going 708 00:32:05.880 --> 00:32:07.599 up as you get deeper and deeper into the tournament, 709 00:32:08.839 --> 00:32:12.039 I feel personally more locked in the further along I 710 00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:14.319 am in a tournament, So I think I thrive off 711 00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:15.079 of adrenaline. 712 00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:16.359 Is what is adrenaline? 713 00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:16.519 Then? 714 00:32:16.519 --> 00:32:19.440 In that context, is it perhaps a heightened sense of 715 00:32:19.480 --> 00:32:22.319 focus or is it something else that happens when you're 716 00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:22.880 in that zone? 717 00:32:23.880 --> 00:32:26.039 Yeah, I think I would describe it as a heightened 718 00:32:26.039 --> 00:32:29.880 sense of focus and alertness. I just feel more. I mean, 719 00:32:30.079 --> 00:32:32.680 maybe I'm misunderstanding exactly what adrenaline is, but to me, 720 00:32:32.759 --> 00:32:37.119 when I have adrenaline, I am more awake, but also 721 00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:40.279 more common a way, right That does that sound right? 722 00:32:40.279 --> 00:32:46.000 I don't know it sounds yeah, and I'm not, but yeah, yeah, 723 00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:50.599 Nature's adderall. There was this Nelly Korda, the LPG golfer. 724 00:32:50.680 --> 00:32:53.960 She had this great quote about They asked her, like, 725 00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:56.200 you know what she did when she won the tournament? 726 00:32:57.000 --> 00:32:58.519 Did she go out and party? And she said, no, 727 00:32:58.640 --> 00:33:00.599 you know what it was. I just went and laid 728 00:33:00.599 --> 00:33:02.640 in my hotel room with my phone on the side, 729 00:33:02.759 --> 00:33:05.440 and I just relaxed and I just like fell asleep. 730 00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:07.519 She said it. She said, it's the craziest thing when 731 00:33:07.559 --> 00:33:09.640 you win a tournament because it's like you have this 732 00:33:09.759 --> 00:33:11.720 surge of adrenaline that has just built up as the 733 00:33:11.720 --> 00:33:13.440 tournament goes on, and when you win, it just all 734 00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:16.799 leaves your body and you almost feel like this happened 735 00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:18.000 to me After I got third in the main I 736 00:33:18.039 --> 00:33:20.160 felt like a little empty for a few days, maybe 737 00:33:20.200 --> 00:33:24.200 even like maybe a few months. For being honest, there 738 00:33:24.200 --> 00:33:28.119 were like some sort of dark periods internally because that 739 00:33:28.279 --> 00:33:30.559 excitement has just been building and then when it no 740 00:33:30.599 --> 00:33:32.319 matter what the result is, if you win the tournament, 741 00:33:32.359 --> 00:33:36.119 even there's like a crash after that. So I don't know. 742 00:33:36.839 --> 00:33:40.119 I love how you brought in the main event run 743 00:33:40.160 --> 00:33:42.079 in twenty nineteen because I wrote an article and I 744 00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:44.359 talked to you right after you busted the title that 745 00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:48.640 I used was in disbelief and overwhelmed Alex Livings the 746 00:33:48.640 --> 00:33:52.799 finish just third in the main event. Obviously, unless you win, 747 00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:56.000 you're going to have some sort of what if going 748 00:33:56.039 --> 00:33:59.039 through your mind or at least reflection to the point 749 00:33:59.079 --> 00:34:02.720 as to you know, what could have been different? But 750 00:34:03.559 --> 00:34:07.319 take take me back to the moment where you know 751 00:34:07.400 --> 00:34:09.719 that it's over because you're in a two week run, 752 00:34:10.280 --> 00:34:14.400 low on sleep, you're eating when you can, and you're 753 00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:19.480 trying to both focus and analyze while the brakes are 754 00:34:19.480 --> 00:34:21.880 too short to somethings even use the bathroom. And then 755 00:34:21.920 --> 00:34:23.800 all of a sudden, that all comes to a head 756 00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:27.320 when the final card hits and it's over. Is it 757 00:34:27.400 --> 00:34:29.920 sort of like someone turns the lights on or turns 758 00:34:29.960 --> 00:34:30.360 them off. 759 00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:33.480 Yeah, this bracelet ceremony in the background is gonna be 760 00:34:33.480 --> 00:34:37.639 a little bit distracting. But I don't totally remember the 761 00:34:37.719 --> 00:34:39.800 exact moment when I bust. I know I got Ace 762 00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:44.119 jack in against Ace Queen standard sort of spot the 763 00:34:44.519 --> 00:34:46.639 hand before that. It was like a few hands before that, 764 00:34:48.360 --> 00:34:50.079 I played this big pot where I got all in 765 00:34:50.119 --> 00:34:53.800 on a Queen ten seven five two flush straw board 766 00:34:54.199 --> 00:34:58.559 with kings. I don't want to say I regret my decision, 767 00:34:58.599 --> 00:35:01.280 but Dario did this thing where I bet the turn. 768 00:35:01.360 --> 00:35:06.239 I think it was like Queen ten seven, I bet 769 00:35:06.320 --> 00:35:09.679 the flop small, he called out of the big blind 770 00:35:09.719 --> 00:35:12.960 turn five double flush straw he checks, I bet pot. 771 00:35:13.639 --> 00:35:15.599 He moves in for maybe like three and a half 772 00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:18.599 x my bet, and it's a computer call, and it's like, 773 00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:21.719 for sure a call in theory, and I didn't want 774 00:35:21.719 --> 00:35:24.079 a slow roll, and I and I just kind of 775 00:35:24.119 --> 00:35:26.039 called instantly. But he did this thing when he went 776 00:35:26.039 --> 00:35:28.920 all in, where he did this like triangle motion with 777 00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:31.880 his fingers, like signifying the all in button, and like 778 00:35:32.360 --> 00:35:34.679 something in my brain said, this is just really strong, 779 00:35:34.760 --> 00:35:36.599 like because obviously I'm hoping to be up against a 780 00:35:36.639 --> 00:35:38.760 combo draw, not two pair, or hoping to sometime be 781 00:35:38.840 --> 00:35:40.760 up against the Queen. But it felt strong, and so 782 00:35:41.639 --> 00:35:43.159 I don't know if I could go back. Maybe I 783 00:35:43.400 --> 00:35:45.880 just give myself a moment to think there and not 784 00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:48.440 worry about nitrolling somebody when you're playing for a six 785 00:35:48.440 --> 00:35:51.920 million dollars pay jump. But yeah, and then the actual 786 00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:54.039 bust out hand I think was pretty standard and there 787 00:35:54.079 --> 00:35:55.360 was a bit of a blur. I remember I did 788 00:35:55.440 --> 00:35:57.800 an interview with you and a bunch of other people 789 00:35:57.840 --> 00:36:00.639 asking questions, a big crowd. Yeah, and then we went 790 00:36:00.679 --> 00:36:03.719 to top Golf and had a good time. But I 791 00:36:03.719 --> 00:36:05.719 still felt pretty good at that point. But like it's 792 00:36:05.800 --> 00:36:09.760 like a few days later, you're just you're missing being 793 00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:11.239 in the moment, right. We all want to be in 794 00:36:11.320 --> 00:36:13.360 that in that moment, that's what we play for. So 795 00:36:13.400 --> 00:36:16.119 when it's over, it feels a little weird. So as 796 00:36:16.119 --> 00:36:18.159 the version of the ceremony is going on, and hopefully 797 00:36:18.199 --> 00:36:19.679 that didn't impact the audio of this. 798 00:36:20.039 --> 00:36:21.920 Hit adds to it, you know, Okay, like in this, 799 00:36:22.119 --> 00:36:22.920 in this moment. 800 00:36:22.639 --> 00:36:25.119 And we're really here, I should put my WSP hoodie 801 00:36:25.159 --> 00:36:25.400 back on. 802 00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:28.320 Please, where's your where are your bracelets? 803 00:36:28.360 --> 00:36:29.719 Yeah? Exactly, Yeah, yeah, I should have. 804 00:36:30.679 --> 00:36:32.800 The thing about this your main Event final table is 805 00:36:32.840 --> 00:36:37.039 that it was a unique lineup as I look back 806 00:36:37.079 --> 00:36:40.239 on it now, with sort of a blend between players 807 00:36:40.239 --> 00:36:44.159 that are accustomed to different stakes, players that might be underrated, 808 00:36:44.360 --> 00:36:47.199 players that might be seen as the favorite. And I 809 00:36:47.239 --> 00:36:49.760 think that you and and Dario were probably those two 810 00:36:49.760 --> 00:36:54.039 players coming into that final table. Did you have a 811 00:36:54.079 --> 00:36:55.559 sense of like, this is mine to win? 812 00:36:57.960 --> 00:36:59.559 It was weird. I mean I had gone into the 813 00:36:59.599 --> 00:37:03.320 day before or thirty fifth of thirty six, I believe 814 00:37:03.400 --> 00:37:06.280 something like that. I was second last, and Chips ran 815 00:37:06.320 --> 00:37:09.920 amazing obviously beg fifth of nine. So at that point, 816 00:37:10.039 --> 00:37:13.199 just being there was like kind of shocking and incredible, 817 00:37:13.760 --> 00:37:15.639 and I don't know that I was thinking, I mean, 818 00:37:15.679 --> 00:37:17.960 of course you want to win, but now I'm just thinking, okay, 819 00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:19.519 I'm in the middle of the pack, Like how do 820 00:37:19.559 --> 00:37:21.719 we play this stack? Like, just thinking about it, more 821 00:37:21.719 --> 00:37:25.480 like that, I would say probably Jario Hossein and myself 822 00:37:25.519 --> 00:37:27.719 were the three best players I would I would think, 823 00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:29.840 And so we got for a second and third. It 824 00:37:29.880 --> 00:37:34.119 wasn't super surprising, but you know, you never know what's 825 00:37:34.159 --> 00:37:36.760 gonna happen in a final table, right, So certain by 826 00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:38.639 no means are the best players guaranteed to do well? 827 00:37:38.679 --> 00:37:40.159 Or by no means are the big stacks guaranteed to 828 00:37:40.199 --> 00:37:40.519 do well? 829 00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:43.519 What does four million dollars due to someone's life? 830 00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:46.079 Yeah, and again I'd sold some action, but it was 831 00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:49.000 in taxes, but it was huge. It was huge. I 832 00:37:49.079 --> 00:37:54.199 bought some real estate, and now I was obviously comfortable 833 00:37:54.199 --> 00:37:59.639 to play much higher stakes. And I kind of took 834 00:37:59.679 --> 00:38:02.239 a little time off that summer, and then I was 835 00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:04.559 wondering what I wanted to do poker wise, But it 836 00:38:04.599 --> 00:38:07.880 wasn't really until after COVID I started. I had a 837 00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:10.559 huge score at the win actually twenty twenty two, I 838 00:38:10.599 --> 00:38:12.880 got third in like the win main kind of thing 839 00:38:13.079 --> 00:38:15.079 for seven hundred and fifty K, and that kind of 840 00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:18.000 reignited my desire to play high stakes. And after that point, 841 00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:19.760 I said, you know what, what if I tried battling these 842 00:38:19.760 --> 00:38:21.960 guys in the studio, which is something I'd always considered, 843 00:38:22.360 --> 00:38:25.000 like those guys were in a different league, But I said, 844 00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:27.559 why don't I just try battling. In the first series 845 00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:29.400 I went there, I think I cashed four or five times, 846 00:38:29.400 --> 00:38:32.440 including in some nelimit events, and I felt pretty comfortable, honestly, 847 00:38:32.480 --> 00:38:35.159 And then that sort of led to me, Now I 848 00:38:35.199 --> 00:38:37.800 had a newfound purpose to chase higher stakes and to 849 00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:38.760 play more tournaments. 850 00:38:39.159 --> 00:38:41.880 So then there's a point where you're asked to do 851 00:38:41.920 --> 00:38:45.960 a commentary, and I'm curious, what's it like to be 852 00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:49.239 asked to do that, and is there perhaps a sense 853 00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:54.280 of feeling like you need to perform and not let 854 00:38:54.320 --> 00:38:58.000 down those that watch this that are also really great players, 855 00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:00.440 Because it can sometimes feel like there was a pressure. 856 00:39:00.599 --> 00:39:03.079 Yeah, it can, and I try not to feel. But 857 00:39:03.199 --> 00:39:04.599 it's kind of equated to kind of like being on 858 00:39:04.639 --> 00:39:06.800 a stream table. You know, all the eyes are on you, 859 00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:09.719 and if you do something quote unquote wrong, somebody might 860 00:39:09.760 --> 00:39:14.599 say something to you. I could maybe be even more 861 00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:17.719 honest with my opinions in the moment, but you don't 862 00:39:17.719 --> 00:39:21.280 want to be disrespectful to players, and so I try to. 863 00:39:21.800 --> 00:39:23.880 You know, I will disagree with the play sometimes, but 864 00:39:24.599 --> 00:39:26.159 I try to at least see where they're coming from, 865 00:39:26.239 --> 00:39:30.119 and you know, not just be full on berating people. 866 00:39:31.440 --> 00:39:33.239 But yeah, it's a fine line, you know you want 867 00:39:33.280 --> 00:39:35.920 to be. I think Shulman just does it great. You know. 868 00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:38.440 He he gives insight in a way where you can 869 00:39:38.519 --> 00:39:40.440 kind of the way he talks, you know, you can 870 00:39:40.480 --> 00:39:43.719 kind of interpret things multiple ways, and he the language 871 00:39:43.719 --> 00:39:45.840 he uses is excellent. So I use him as kind 872 00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:48.639 of a role model for somebody who is just a 873 00:39:48.679 --> 00:39:50.760 great analyst in the booth, in the way that they 874 00:39:51.079 --> 00:39:56.320 conduct themselves professionally while still being entertaining, you know, providing insights. Yeah. 875 00:39:56.559 --> 00:39:58.679 I mean there's so many elite commentators out there. I 876 00:39:58.679 --> 00:40:01.079 think you are among those as well. Appreciate that, and 877 00:40:01.800 --> 00:40:05.639 it's just fun to listen to someone who is able 878 00:40:05.679 --> 00:40:09.960 to almost like boil it down without dumbing it down. Yeah, 879 00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:11.840 you know, you still keep a sense of like the 880 00:40:11.880 --> 00:40:15.920 high levelness of what people are watching. Because oftentimes when 881 00:40:17.119 --> 00:40:20.599 I do commentary, and not to be too reflective, but 882 00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:23.079 when there's all a bunch of great players at the table, 883 00:40:23.320 --> 00:40:25.679 I'm like, who am I to say? Yeah, Like who 884 00:40:25.679 --> 00:40:27.239 am I to say literally anything? 885 00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:29.840 And I think that's yeah, that's something to think about, Like, 886 00:40:29.920 --> 00:40:32.000 you know, how much you want to just let the 887 00:40:32.039 --> 00:40:34.119 players and the play do the talking, versus how much 888 00:40:34.159 --> 00:40:35.639 I want to do the talking, And it can depend 889 00:40:35.679 --> 00:40:38.440 based on the composition of the table. I can maybe 890 00:40:38.440 --> 00:40:42.920 depend based on my own expertise in the game. I 891 00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:44.639 think one of the things I try to do is 892 00:40:44.719 --> 00:40:49.840 offer commentary that can provide insight to strong players without 893 00:40:49.960 --> 00:40:52.719 scaring off weak players. So I try to be and 894 00:40:52.760 --> 00:40:54.840 I love when Allie and I going to the segues. 895 00:40:54.880 --> 00:40:57.320 He's the best at it. I mean, I like talking 896 00:40:57.320 --> 00:40:59.199 about things that aren't poker when I'm commentating. I think 897 00:40:59.199 --> 00:41:01.760 it's fun. Sometimes chat will start saying, come on, guys, 898 00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:03.920 focus on the poker, and you know, we'll get back there. 899 00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:07.079 But I think if you're just dry and monotonous in 900 00:41:07.159 --> 00:41:10.519 talking only about technical decisions, that's not what people want 901 00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:13.000 to see. Maybe if you're going too into the weeds, 902 00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:14.320 that's also not what they want to see. So it's 903 00:41:14.320 --> 00:41:16.880 all about trying to find those those balances and kind 904 00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:18.199 of meet in the middle on a lot of things. 905 00:41:18.760 --> 00:41:20.440 As someone who's on both sides. You know, you play, 906 00:41:20.440 --> 00:41:22.280 you do commentary. You see the live chat, which is 907 00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:25.920 obviously huge as well, because that's like instant feedback. Yeah, 908 00:41:26.079 --> 00:41:29.840 what's what's the state of poker from a I guess 909 00:41:29.880 --> 00:41:32.599 fan perspective? Because I feel as though, correct me if 910 00:41:32.599 --> 00:41:36.360 I'm wrong, we're highly saturated with different things that we 911 00:41:36.440 --> 00:41:40.880 could be watching, and at the same time, are we 912 00:41:40.920 --> 00:41:42.760 focused on the right things as far as what do 913 00:41:42.800 --> 00:41:44.679 we show and how do we show it? What's your 914 00:41:44.760 --> 00:41:45.159 view on that? 915 00:41:45.559 --> 00:41:48.480 Well, I think unquestionably everyone wants to see more mixed 916 00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:51.440 games at WSP, and from what I'm told, that's in 917 00:41:51.480 --> 00:41:53.840 the works for next year, so I look forward to that. 918 00:41:54.119 --> 00:41:57.039 Outside of that, you know, I think there's there's different 919 00:41:57.039 --> 00:41:59.760 things for different people. So you have these these high 920 00:41:59.760 --> 00:42:02.239 stakes cash games that have gotten quite big. A lot 921 00:42:02.239 --> 00:42:03.760 of them are in LA and that kind of thing, 922 00:42:03.800 --> 00:42:05.920 and you know, there's certain people that love watching those. 923 00:42:05.960 --> 00:42:09.039 It's not for me, but I completely understand why people 924 00:42:09.039 --> 00:42:11.599 would want to watch those. You have the vloggers and 925 00:42:11.639 --> 00:42:13.559 the streamers. I think that's a really cool addition to 926 00:42:13.599 --> 00:42:18.639 the space. And then in terms of tournaments, I personally 927 00:42:18.639 --> 00:42:21.400 would like to see more earlier day coverage, So something 928 00:42:21.440 --> 00:42:22.920 like the PPC I think you should do from day 929 00:42:22.920 --> 00:42:25.719 one because it really gives people a good foundational understanding 930 00:42:25.719 --> 00:42:27.559 of mixed games. Of course, the main event from day one, 931 00:42:27.559 --> 00:42:30.360 which they do. I'd like to see more, say a 932 00:42:30.400 --> 00:42:33.159 PLO event like a fifty K one hunter KPLO do 933 00:42:33.199 --> 00:42:35.199 a little bit of day one coverage or do a 934 00:42:35.199 --> 00:42:38.800 full day two coverage, because the problem with final tables 935 00:42:38.840 --> 00:42:41.519 is that they can be very ICM driven. You see 936 00:42:41.559 --> 00:42:43.039 a lot of tighter folds and you just see a 937 00:42:43.039 --> 00:42:45.719 lot of more careful play. So I think covering early 938 00:42:45.800 --> 00:42:47.840 levels you get to see kind of like how the 939 00:42:47.840 --> 00:42:50.039 games are actually played, how they're played in cash games, 940 00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:53.880 how they're played without all this ICM focus, and it's 941 00:42:53.880 --> 00:42:56.960 more exciting, more entertaining, and you know, deeper stack depths. 942 00:42:56.960 --> 00:42:58.519 It's just always a little bit better to me. 943 00:42:58.599 --> 00:43:01.760 For someone who focuses on mixed game and PLO. Obviously 944 00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:04.679 that's not a thing in the cash game world unless 945 00:43:04.719 --> 00:43:08.199 you can play in Bobby's room and you know, similar 946 00:43:08.239 --> 00:43:12.239 games that are happening in Vegas perhaps, and I think PLO, 947 00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:14.519 as far as I know, might even be more difficult 948 00:43:14.599 --> 00:43:16.639 to get a high stakes game going that's truly high 949 00:43:16.679 --> 00:43:19.440 stakes and that truly is available to people to play. 950 00:43:20.360 --> 00:43:23.599 Are there enough opportunities for players like yourself to make 951 00:43:23.639 --> 00:43:27.159 a living not having to constantly, you know, fight for 952 00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:28.000 small edges. 953 00:43:29.199 --> 00:43:31.320 I dabble in a few private games here and there. 954 00:43:31.679 --> 00:43:33.880 I'm definitely not like one of these people who's always 955 00:43:33.880 --> 00:43:36.800 trying to get into every private game. But if I 956 00:43:36.840 --> 00:43:38.440 have a friend who's running one and I can get in, 957 00:43:38.760 --> 00:43:42.400 I'll certainly play that sometimes. And then for public games, 958 00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:45.039 I think mix is actually an okay spot because you 959 00:43:45.079 --> 00:43:48.480 have there's a three hundred and six hour game in town. 960 00:43:48.679 --> 00:43:53.360 There's eighty one sixty games, so there's actually forty eighty. 961 00:43:53.360 --> 00:43:55.920 There's quite a few different levels in town that you 962 00:43:55.920 --> 00:43:58.039 can play publicly. I don't play the super high stakes 963 00:43:58.039 --> 00:44:02.400 like the Bobby's Room stuff anyway. So and then for PLO, yeah, 964 00:44:02.440 --> 00:44:05.800 I think there's pilo's kind of booming in other parts 965 00:44:05.840 --> 00:44:07.599 of the country, maybe more so than Vegas. 966 00:44:08.039 --> 00:44:10.360 Is that an ambition for you to play more like 967 00:44:10.440 --> 00:44:13.239 high stakes like live PLO, because I feel like the 968 00:44:13.239 --> 00:44:15.719 tournaments are booming. But I mean this is also just 969 00:44:15.719 --> 00:44:18.000 from my perspective. You don't hear much about high stakes 970 00:44:18.039 --> 00:44:19.679 PLO cash because it's all private. 971 00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:24.320 Yeah, so maybe I from just a making money perspective, 972 00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:27.079 I should be looking more into trying to get into 973 00:44:27.119 --> 00:44:29.960 more private games, but there's a whole bunch of politics 974 00:44:30.039 --> 00:44:32.800 and stuff that I don't necessarily want to involve myself with, 975 00:44:33.199 --> 00:44:35.119 and so I kind of just stick to the games 976 00:44:35.159 --> 00:44:37.760 I can already get into, and I don't have a 977 00:44:37.840 --> 00:44:40.679 huge ambition to play like the super highest Pero Cash 978 00:44:40.679 --> 00:44:41.599 games or anything like that. 979 00:44:41.840 --> 00:44:44.920 Bobby's Room is a place that I have to mention 980 00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:49.239 it has so much lower It's something that speaks to 981 00:44:49.239 --> 00:44:54.440 the imagination. Has it ever been an ambition of you, yeah, 982 00:44:54.480 --> 00:44:57.159 to make it there, and perhaps maybe still. 983 00:44:57.000 --> 00:44:58.440 It has been, and there was a time when I 984 00:44:58.480 --> 00:45:01.599 considered going in and check taking it. But to me, 985 00:45:01.639 --> 00:45:03.760 it's just such a big jump, right because I've played 986 00:45:04.519 --> 00:45:06.320 as high as four hundred eight hundre actual as hig 987 00:45:06.320 --> 00:45:09.039 as five hundred one K limit, but Bobby's Room is 988 00:45:09.119 --> 00:45:11.239 usually at least fifteen hundred and three K, and often 989 00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:14.079 more like three K six K. It's just it's huge. 990 00:45:14.079 --> 00:45:16.079 I mean, you're swinging. You can easily swing two or 991 00:45:16.119 --> 00:45:18.840 three und k in a session, and yeah, it's pretty 992 00:45:18.840 --> 00:45:21.320 easy to do that. And I just don't know, I 993 00:45:21.320 --> 00:45:23.199 don't have the ambition right now to play that big. 994 00:45:23.199 --> 00:45:26.119 I don't have the role to play that big right now, 995 00:45:27.400 --> 00:45:31.320 so I look at tournaments is a great opportunity, and 996 00:45:32.239 --> 00:45:35.840 I can play some some cash games as well, can commentate, 997 00:45:36.599 --> 00:45:38.480 do some coaching. Kind of dabbling in a lot of 998 00:45:38.480 --> 00:45:42.800 things right now, which you can argue would maybe impede 999 00:45:42.800 --> 00:45:44.679 my if I wanted to just be the best at 1000 00:45:44.719 --> 00:45:46.280 one thing, it might be better to be a bit 1001 00:45:46.280 --> 00:45:50.159 more singularly focused. But I kind of enjoy a lot 1002 00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:52.320 of the different things I'm dabbling in, and I think 1003 00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:54.679 that's half a battle too, is making sure you're staying 1004 00:45:54.679 --> 00:45:55.440 fresh and having fun. 1005 00:45:57.800 --> 00:45:59.559 People that watch this might think like, oh, you know 1006 00:45:59.599 --> 00:46:01.800 this guy with a college in Boston, and you mentioned 1007 00:46:01.840 --> 00:46:03.320 like a lot of things happening in the US, but 1008 00:46:03.719 --> 00:46:07.519 proud Nova Scotia is is on your Instagram bio. Yeah, 1009 00:46:07.639 --> 00:46:10.679 I want to pivot to like, you know, family and 1010 00:46:11.199 --> 00:46:13.599 sort of know where you're from. And I find that 1011 00:46:13.800 --> 00:46:16.719 really interesting because first off, I don't think there's many 1012 00:46:17.039 --> 00:46:22.000 pocal pros from Nova Scotia. And I'm also curious why 1013 00:46:22.039 --> 00:46:23.880 you feel that's important to mention. 1014 00:46:24.440 --> 00:46:26.480 Well, I still live in Nova Scotia, so I got 1015 00:46:26.480 --> 00:46:31.320 recently engaged and my fiance Julia and I live in 1016 00:46:31.360 --> 00:46:34.599 her hometown, like where she grew up in New Glasgow, 1017 00:46:34.599 --> 00:46:36.199 which is about an hour and a half from Halifax, 1018 00:46:36.239 --> 00:46:39.360 which is the big city in the area. So and 1019 00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:41.880 I've spent huge chunk of my life in Nova Scotia. 1020 00:46:41.880 --> 00:46:43.400 Even when I was living in Vegas, I was going 1021 00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:45.519 back to Nova Scotia for at least a month every summer. 1022 00:46:46.360 --> 00:46:48.840 It's a very very special place to me. I hate 1023 00:46:48.840 --> 00:46:51.000 that WSP is this time of year. You know, there's 1024 00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:52.880 that one year it was in November during COVID and 1025 00:46:52.880 --> 00:46:54.480 that was amazing because I could spend the whole summer 1026 00:46:54.480 --> 00:46:57.400 in Nova Scotia. So, you know, as much as I travel, 1027 00:46:57.519 --> 00:47:00.320 I do still live in Nova Scotia. It means a 1028 00:47:00.360 --> 00:47:02.320 lot to me. The people are great, It's where I 1029 00:47:02.360 --> 00:47:04.639 was raised, it's you know, home is always going to 1030 00:47:04.719 --> 00:47:07.000 feel special, I think in a certain way. I love 1031 00:47:07.039 --> 00:47:08.559 the food there, I love the summers there. 1032 00:47:08.920 --> 00:47:12.360 So for those watching, who I mean most people have 1033 00:47:12.440 --> 00:47:16.119 never considered probably going there. If they're visiting, what kind 1034 00:47:16.119 --> 00:47:18.599 of experience are they getting and what's the Alex Livingston 1035 00:47:19.000 --> 00:47:20.159 pitch on Nova Scotia. 1036 00:47:20.239 --> 00:47:21.719 Well, if you're a golfer, you definitely want to go 1037 00:47:21.719 --> 00:47:23.639 play Cabot Links and Cabot Cliffs. I actually have a 1038 00:47:23.639 --> 00:47:26.760 rental property up there and people that is when people 1039 00:47:26.760 --> 00:47:29.159 tell me they've been in Nova Scotia. If they're a golfer, 1040 00:47:29.159 --> 00:47:31.320 that's probably the reason they've been there. But if you're 1041 00:47:31.360 --> 00:47:34.119 not a golfer, I would say, just go for the seafood, 1042 00:47:34.199 --> 00:47:37.960 the people, the music. You'd want to go see Halifax 1043 00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:40.079 and see all the restaurants and breweries there, and then 1044 00:47:40.119 --> 00:47:43.599 also make it up to Cape Breton, which is kind 1045 00:47:43.599 --> 00:47:45.760 of an island on the northeast tip of Nova Scotia, 1046 00:47:46.079 --> 00:47:48.239 and it's just got rugged beauty. You can drive around 1047 00:47:48.320 --> 00:47:51.559 the Cabbot Trail and do hikes and see that. And 1048 00:47:51.559 --> 00:47:54.679 then we've got vineyards, and we've got the South Shore 1049 00:47:54.760 --> 00:47:57.119 which has you know, you can go out on a sailboat. 1050 00:47:57.519 --> 00:48:00.440 It's just an amazing time. Some of the cruise ships there, 1051 00:48:00.639 --> 00:48:02.639 but it's an amazing time to visit between you know, 1052 00:48:02.760 --> 00:48:04.360 June and October. I'd say so. 1053 00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:08.719 Then, with the family life and maybe being a bit 1054 00:48:08.760 --> 00:48:12.800 more home than focused and being engaged, do you think 1055 00:48:12.840 --> 00:48:16.159 that long term poker will always fit into that? Have 1056 00:48:16.239 --> 00:48:17.800 you ever considered stepping away? 1057 00:48:17.920 --> 00:48:19.679 I can't see myself stepping away because I don't know 1058 00:48:19.679 --> 00:48:21.679 what I would do, and I do think I'm pretty 1059 00:48:21.679 --> 00:48:24.000 deeply ingrained in the poker world. I could see a 1060 00:48:24.039 --> 00:48:26.679 world in which maybe we end up spending more time 1061 00:48:26.719 --> 00:48:28.800 somewhere else that's not Nova Scotia, And then still I 1062 00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:31.480 would still always want to go back there in summers. Yeah, 1063 00:48:31.480 --> 00:48:34.239 because it's been a little bit challenging for you know, 1064 00:48:34.239 --> 00:48:36.679 where Julia's home all the time and I'm commentating and 1065 00:48:36.679 --> 00:48:38.840 I'm here for WSP and we have two dogs, and 1066 00:48:39.199 --> 00:48:41.800 she's actually fostering a third dog, Josh, right now. So 1067 00:48:41.960 --> 00:48:44.000 if any of thee wants, you'll have three dogs. If 1068 00:48:44.000 --> 00:48:47.360 anyone wants a dog, Josh is available. Yea, we may 1069 00:48:47.599 --> 00:48:51.119 you never tell. We're y. So it's a little harder 1070 00:48:51.119 --> 00:48:53.639 for her to come travel with me. But I think 1071 00:48:53.639 --> 00:48:56.400 down the road, maybe we spend more time somewhere else. Uh. 1072 00:48:56.679 --> 00:49:01.400 But you know, I always love being there, and I 1073 00:49:01.440 --> 00:49:03.599 think it's good for me too. I think that, like 1074 00:49:03.719 --> 00:49:05.960 I always look at my I see you're wearing a 1075 00:49:05.960 --> 00:49:08.280 whoop as well, and like I've got one too in 1076 00:49:08.320 --> 00:49:10.000 the recovery scores when I'm in when I'm home in 1077 00:49:10.039 --> 00:49:12.519 Nova Scotia, I get into the nineties regularly, and when 1078 00:49:12.519 --> 00:49:15.800 I'm here, I rarely get above seventy. Have you found 1079 00:49:15.800 --> 00:49:18.000 that too, like different you do well in different places. 1080 00:49:18.440 --> 00:49:21.800 For me, it's been about like, where's my focus? 1081 00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:22.039 Lie? 1082 00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:25.400 Yeah, like WSP of course we're here every day. Yeah, 1083 00:49:25.400 --> 00:49:29.760 it might be Leslie, you're not as routine that you're 1084 00:49:29.840 --> 00:49:32.679 used to. And you know, when I was training for 1085 00:49:32.840 --> 00:49:36.360 a big race, I noticed that even though I'm training 1086 00:49:36.440 --> 00:49:40.159 much harder, I'm also recovering harder. Yeah, because you're so 1087 00:49:40.239 --> 00:49:42.599 focused on that. Yeah, it makes sense, and here you're 1088 00:49:42.599 --> 00:49:45.320 sort of guided by the day to day at the WSOP. 1089 00:49:45.760 --> 00:49:48.039 I think I just have trouble relaxing in Vegas, and 1090 00:49:48.119 --> 00:49:50.440 I'm much more relaxed when I'm home in Nova Scotia, 1091 00:49:50.519 --> 00:49:52.599 So it's always important for me to spend time there 1092 00:49:52.679 --> 00:49:56.079 to recharge. The issue is it's harder to work, you know, 1093 00:49:56.119 --> 00:49:58.679 I have to either play online or to coaching. There 1094 00:49:58.760 --> 00:50:01.039 is a couple live I can get into, but they're 1095 00:50:01.039 --> 00:50:01.559 pretty small. 1096 00:50:01.920 --> 00:50:04.559 So one thing that I find interesting is I'm also 1097 00:50:04.559 --> 00:50:07.039 from a really small town. But I've never won millions 1098 00:50:07.039 --> 00:50:09.800 of dollars, so no one ever comes knocking on my 1099 00:50:09.840 --> 00:50:12.920 door for any help. But you have. What's it like 1100 00:50:13.000 --> 00:50:18.239 to become a celebrity or or at least become known 1101 00:50:18.320 --> 00:50:20.760 for being the guy who won millions of dollars when 1102 00:50:20.800 --> 00:50:23.760 you're when you're from a place where I feel as though, 1103 00:50:24.039 --> 00:50:27.199 you know, if if there's a garbage can knocked over, 1104 00:50:27.519 --> 00:50:30.039 you know, people will find out about it, because small 1105 00:50:30.039 --> 00:50:31.400 things become much bigger. 1106 00:50:31.559 --> 00:50:33.639 Yeah, but I think people are people are just very 1107 00:50:33.760 --> 00:50:36.840 kind in Nova Scotia, So I did. I did not 1108 00:50:36.960 --> 00:50:39.719 get inundated with a bunch of people asking to borrow 1109 00:50:39.760 --> 00:50:41.679 money or invest in businesses. There were a couple here 1110 00:50:41.679 --> 00:50:43.639 and there, but that wasn't something that I had to 1111 00:50:43.679 --> 00:50:45.719 deal with by any means. I was able to help 1112 00:50:45.760 --> 00:50:48.719 people a little bit during COVID because you know, it 1113 00:50:48.840 --> 00:50:51.079 happened shortly after my main bank and there were people 1114 00:50:51.079 --> 00:50:53.400 that were struggling. So I was able to help the 1115 00:50:53.480 --> 00:50:55.960 local community a little bit, which which felt great. I 1116 00:50:56.159 --> 00:50:58.119 don't think anything really changed in my day to day life, 1117 00:50:58.159 --> 00:50:59.800 and I don't think people really treated me differently, And 1118 00:50:59.840 --> 00:51:01.559 I hope that I didn't treat people differently, and I 1119 00:51:01.559 --> 00:51:04.719 think that sort of speaks to what Nova Scotia's value 1120 00:51:04.760 --> 00:51:07.840 system is. You know, it's not a materialistic place at all. 1121 00:51:08.440 --> 00:51:12.239 So people are happy for me and congratulations, but it 1122 00:51:12.280 --> 00:51:15.000 doesn't really change my interactions with people. And I think 1123 00:51:15.039 --> 00:51:18.880 that is. Yeah, you'd have to just go meet people 1124 00:51:18.880 --> 00:51:21.199 from Nova Scotia. I mean, you're from the Netherlands, right, 1125 00:51:21.280 --> 00:51:23.719 so I'm sure people are pretty similar to that there. 1126 00:51:24.119 --> 00:51:25.800 I feel like it's pretty down to earth people there 1127 00:51:25.840 --> 00:51:26.199 as well. 1128 00:51:26.280 --> 00:51:30.119 In the Netherlands that people often say that if your 1129 00:51:30.119 --> 00:51:32.679 head's above the tall grass, you know, they'll get chopped down. 1130 00:51:32.800 --> 00:51:34.679 Yeah, and I like that. 1131 00:51:35.039 --> 00:51:40.039 It's also a situation where people in the Netherlands. I'm 1132 00:51:40.039 --> 00:51:41.920 not sure how it is where you're from, but in 1133 00:51:41.960 --> 00:51:46.119 the Netherlands they almost are telling you to just act normal, 1134 00:51:46.159 --> 00:51:50.000 even if you celebrate success. So it's almost hard to 1135 00:51:50.320 --> 00:51:55.039 be proud sometimes because people see sort of outward success 1136 00:51:55.159 --> 00:51:58.039 as like bragging or you know, you're trying to flex. 1137 00:51:58.519 --> 00:52:00.960 I could see that. I think maybe there's something similar 1138 00:52:00.960 --> 00:52:02.400 with that. I certainly. I would say like a lot 1139 00:52:02.400 --> 00:52:05.519 of the wealthiest people that I know or I'm familiar 1140 00:52:05.599 --> 00:52:08.519 with in Halifax, they don't act like it or dress 1141 00:52:08.639 --> 00:52:11.239 like it, or you know, have the flashy cars. It's 1142 00:52:11.400 --> 00:52:16.199 very different than what you might have here in Vegas. 1143 00:52:16.280 --> 00:52:19.039 It's kind of a very materialistic city kind of my definition, right, 1144 00:52:19.320 --> 00:52:21.480 not to say that there aren't great communities of down 1145 00:52:21.519 --> 00:52:24.159 to earth people, and I mean it's Vegas has just 1146 00:52:24.199 --> 00:52:25.719 never been my place that I would want to sort 1147 00:52:25.760 --> 00:52:27.480 of settle down long term. It's never been. 1148 00:52:27.800 --> 00:52:29.280 The outdoors here is underrated though. 1149 00:52:29.280 --> 00:52:33.159 Yeah, no, no, and the golf and the I completely understand 1150 00:52:33.159 --> 00:52:34.840 why people like living in Vegas. I have a lot 1151 00:52:34.880 --> 00:52:37.320 of good friends who live here, and all the reasons 1152 00:52:37.360 --> 00:52:40.079 make sense, but it just doesn't The city doesn't draw 1153 00:52:40.119 --> 00:52:40.639 me in that way. 1154 00:52:40.719 --> 00:52:43.480 Of course. A few small, small final things before I 1155 00:52:43.599 --> 00:52:45.320 let you go, And it's been a really interesting conversation. 1156 00:52:45.800 --> 00:52:49.400 You mentioned on a different podcast that you were considering 1157 00:52:49.400 --> 00:52:53.719 writing a book about the poker lifestyle, not the strategy 1158 00:52:54.480 --> 00:52:56.280 what I mean. I'm not sure if you're still thinking 1159 00:52:56.280 --> 00:52:59.440 about that, but what sort of ideas that you have 1160 00:52:59.719 --> 00:53:03.440 when you had those thoughts, and you know, give us 1161 00:53:03.440 --> 00:53:04.000 some more context. 1162 00:53:04.039 --> 00:53:06.199 Well, I think Garrett Adelstein beat me to the punch now, right. 1163 00:53:06.239 --> 00:53:07.639 I was going to write the first book about the 1164 00:53:07.639 --> 00:53:10.559 poker lifestyle, and he just wrote one and he's promoting it. 1165 00:53:10.760 --> 00:53:12.400 I don't know. I was going to tell stories like 1166 00:53:12.440 --> 00:53:15.079 the time that I lost forty K playing beer pong 1167 00:53:15.119 --> 00:53:16.800 in twenty nine, when I had seventeen K to my 1168 00:53:16.880 --> 00:53:18.079 name and stuff like that. 1169 00:53:18.360 --> 00:53:20.159 Well, I mean, you can't just gloss over that and 1170 00:53:20.159 --> 00:53:23.280 not tell the story. I mean, that's insane. Set the 1171 00:53:23.320 --> 00:53:23.840 scene for us. 1172 00:53:24.400 --> 00:53:26.239 I mean, we had a rental house with ten or 1173 00:53:26.280 --> 00:53:28.880 twelve guys. I was twenty two, and one of the 1174 00:53:28.920 --> 00:53:31.320 guys wanted to bet on everything, and he kind of 1175 00:53:31.320 --> 00:53:33.079 told me at the beginning of the summer, He's like, look, 1176 00:53:33.360 --> 00:53:35.920 if the number gets high, we will settle for something less. 1177 00:53:35.920 --> 00:53:37.880 Don't worry about it. He was obviously kind of like 1178 00:53:37.960 --> 00:53:39.880 hustling me, and he was better than me. Made a 1179 00:53:39.880 --> 00:53:42.400 lot of things, and so we ended up playing beer pong, 1180 00:53:42.400 --> 00:53:44.000 and it started off at one hundred dollars or tw 1181 00:53:44.039 --> 00:53:46.559 hundred dollars a game, and we just kept doubling, and 1182 00:53:46.559 --> 00:53:48.840 eventually somehow we had I was thirty two K in 1183 00:53:48.880 --> 00:53:51.119 the whole, I don't know how, and he gave me 1184 00:53:51.159 --> 00:53:53.199 four to one on the next game, so I was 1185 00:53:53.199 --> 00:53:55.360 either going to get even for or I was going 1186 00:53:55.400 --> 00:54:00.400 to owe forty K. And we made all the shots too, 1187 00:54:00.480 --> 00:54:02.840 and we made all the shots. Did everyone know that 1188 00:54:02.880 --> 00:54:04.880 the bets were happening, yeah, but it was just me 1189 00:54:04.920 --> 00:54:06.360 and the guy betting big. The other guys might have 1190 00:54:06.360 --> 00:54:08.480 had one hundred bucks whatever. We made the shots, so 1191 00:54:08.480 --> 00:54:10.480 they had rebuttal they had to try to but we 1192 00:54:10.519 --> 00:54:13.159 had three cups left. Their first guy misses, so the 1193 00:54:13.159 --> 00:54:15.079 next guy to send it into overtime had to make 1194 00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:16.280 three cups in a row. And this is the guy 1195 00:54:16.280 --> 00:54:18.599 I was betting with. He made three in a row. 1196 00:54:18.880 --> 00:54:21.960 We went to overtime. We lost in overtime. I actually 1197 00:54:22.000 --> 00:54:24.280 cried that night, I mean I was this was all 1198 00:54:24.320 --> 00:54:28.039 my money and more. And that same year I punted 1199 00:54:28.079 --> 00:54:30.679 in the main event where on No Sleep I went 1200 00:54:30.679 --> 00:54:33.760 in there and reshoved fifty six big blinds. This is 1201 00:54:33.800 --> 00:54:37.679 another good story. But Chad Batista opens rip. Chad Battista 1202 00:54:37.719 --> 00:54:41.079 opens the hijack, and he was very, very very aggressive, 1203 00:54:41.360 --> 00:54:44.639 probably familiar with the name. A very loose passive player 1204 00:54:44.679 --> 00:54:47.400 calls cut off. Loose passive player calls button. And I 1205 00:54:47.440 --> 00:54:49.559 had whittled down my stack from thirty k was the 1206 00:54:49.559 --> 00:54:51.599 starting stack at the time, down to seventeen. We're just 1207 00:54:51.960 --> 00:54:55.400 coming back from dinner, so I got fifty six big linds. 1208 00:54:56.239 --> 00:54:57.679 I think he opened two and a half or maybe 1209 00:54:57.719 --> 00:54:59.320 even three x, so there was a lot out there, 1210 00:54:59.360 --> 00:55:01.559 I think two and a half. So I just thought 1211 00:55:01.559 --> 00:55:03.039 to myself, well, if I can get through Chad, I 1212 00:55:03.119 --> 00:55:04.679 know these other two guys are always folding, they would 1213 00:55:04.679 --> 00:55:07.039 have three bet their good hands, and so I just 1214 00:55:07.039 --> 00:55:09.119 shoved ten five off for fifty six lines, which is 1215 00:55:09.159 --> 00:55:11.599 like kind of crazy now thinking back on it. And 1216 00:55:11.639 --> 00:55:14.400 he Phil Hellmuth style calls me, you know, like the 1217 00:55:14.679 --> 00:55:17.199 Phil Helmuth like snap call or the chips are like, 1218 00:55:17.440 --> 00:55:18.880 he like beats me into the pot. So I'm like, 1219 00:55:18.920 --> 00:55:20.920 oh shit, I just ran into a monster. And then 1220 00:55:20.960 --> 00:55:23.639 he rolls over pocket eights, which at the time was 1221 00:55:23.840 --> 00:55:26.719 like a pretty amazing snap call. Like even now, I 1222 00:55:26.800 --> 00:55:28.880 don't think people would be a lot of people would 1223 00:55:28.880 --> 00:55:30.880 just fold of course, and certainly a lot of people 1224 00:55:30.880 --> 00:55:32.199 are not going to snap call. So that just shows 1225 00:55:32.239 --> 00:55:35.320 you his instincts. But that was a wild summer. So 1226 00:55:35.400 --> 00:55:37.400 I did not win that hand, and that was my 1227 00:55:37.440 --> 00:55:38.079 first main event. 1228 00:55:38.519 --> 00:55:40.199 So did you did you pay the full forty? 1229 00:55:40.360 --> 00:55:42.440 No, because we settled, like he said we were gonna 1230 00:55:42.440 --> 00:55:44.079 be able to settle for less, and so I think 1231 00:55:44.159 --> 00:55:47.519 he said, okay, we'll settle for twenty and I paid 1232 00:55:47.599 --> 00:55:50.719 him like twelve that summer and I paid him the 1233 00:55:50.760 --> 00:55:52.320 other eight over the next year or something like that. 1234 00:55:52.599 --> 00:55:56.760 Wow, that's still insane. That's a massive number. Yeah, in 1235 00:55:57.159 --> 00:56:01.239 your years in poker, is there any other crazy story 1236 00:56:01.280 --> 00:56:03.199 that stands out that you're thinking back on, like how 1237 00:56:03.320 --> 00:56:04.079 did it even happen? 1238 00:56:04.199 --> 00:56:05.960 I mean, that has to be one of the wildest ones. 1239 00:56:05.960 --> 00:56:08.079 I mean I don't gamble that way anymore, right, Like 1240 00:56:08.159 --> 00:56:11.320 I don't. I don't play table games anymore. I rarely 1241 00:56:11.400 --> 00:56:16.199 sports bet. I'm kind of boring now, so I don't 1242 00:56:16.280 --> 00:56:19.519 have those leaks, and I certainly don't bet forty K 1243 00:56:19.639 --> 00:56:21.639 with seventeen K to my name. That was just, you know, 1244 00:56:22.039 --> 00:56:24.679 dumb twenty two year old stuff. The beer pong one 1245 00:56:24.719 --> 00:56:27.519 in the Amsterdam missing the flight are definitely like two 1246 00:56:27.559 --> 00:56:30.239 of the better ones that I can think of off 1247 00:56:30.239 --> 00:56:32.679 the top of my head that kind of involved my 1248 00:56:32.719 --> 00:56:33.559 poker career. Yeah. 1249 00:56:33.920 --> 00:56:35.400 Well, it's been really good having you on the show. 1250 00:56:35.400 --> 00:56:37.800 I really appreciate your time, and I look forward to 1251 00:56:37.840 --> 00:56:38.880 the book. Are you still working on? 1252 00:56:39.800 --> 00:56:42.159 I didn't really ever get too far in Oka. I 1253 00:56:42.199 --> 00:56:44.719 wrote some notes and my mom would love nothing more 1254 00:56:44.760 --> 00:56:46.719 than to see me write this book, and maybe I 1255 00:56:46.840 --> 00:56:49.199 do at some point. But I guess I just feel 1256 00:56:49.199 --> 00:56:50.280 like I have too much other stuff on the go 1257 00:56:50.440 --> 00:56:52.039 right now. But I would like I would like to 1258 00:56:52.079 --> 00:56:53.199 do that at some point. I think it would be 1259 00:56:53.199 --> 00:56:54.079 pretty interesting. 1260 00:56:53.880 --> 00:56:56.199 All right, So no pre orders just yet. Yeah, but 1261 00:56:56.400 --> 00:56:58.440 we'll keep a tab on how Alex is doing with 1262 00:56:58.480 --> 00:57:00.519 his book. Yeah, Alex, thanks so much for on the show. 1263 00:57:00.840 --> 00:57:02.960 Appreciate it. You guys at home, please liked the video. 1264 00:57:03.000 --> 00:57:04.840 Subscribe to the channel and leave a comment on who 1265 00:57:04.880 --> 00:57:07.320 you want to see next, or perhaps additional questions for Alex, 1266 00:57:07.360 --> 00:57:08.920 and I'll send him over to him and maybe we'll 1267 00:57:09.079 --> 00:57:11.320 have him answer those. Thanks for watching, and we'll see 1268 00:57:11.360 --> 00:57:11.880 you on the next one.