1 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,719 Speaker 1: And we are back with another edition of the Federalist 2 00:00:20,839 --> 00:00:24,559 Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle's senior elections correspondent at The 3 00:00:24,559 --> 00:00:29,640 Federalist and your experience Shirpa on today's quest for Knowledge. 4 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:32,960 As always, you can email the show at radio at 5 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:37,520 the Federalist dot com, follow us on x at fbr LST, 6 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:41,000 make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and 7 00:00:41,079 --> 00:00:43,759 of course to the premium version of our website as well. 8 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:47,679 Our guest today is Robert Enlow, President and CEO of 9 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:53,359 D Choice. We discuss the continuing woeful state of public 10 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,039 education in America. Robert, good to talk to you. Thank 11 00:00:56,039 --> 00:00:57,880 you for joining us in this edition of the Federalist 12 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:00,640 Radio Hour. Thanks again for having us. I really appreciate 13 00:01:00,679 --> 00:01:05,400 it absolutely well. We focus on the latest and not 14 00:01:05,519 --> 00:01:09,959 so greatest results from the Nation's report Card every year. 15 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:15,400 It's an annual assessment of where our students stand in 16 00:01:15,519 --> 00:01:21,040 public education in America. You write recently, I wrote recently 17 00:01:21,519 --> 00:01:24,959 at Fox News and op ed piece you open saying this, 18 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:27,760 The newest results from the Nation's report Card were a 19 00:01:27,799 --> 00:01:32,319 gut punch. Nearly half of high school seniors scored below 20 00:01:32,519 --> 00:01:37,280 basic in math and reading compared to twoenty nineteen, the 21 00:01:37,359 --> 00:01:41,280 last time the test was administered. The results are abysmal. 22 00:01:41,799 --> 00:01:44,640 It's just one more sign that our education system is 23 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:48,439 failing or falling short of preparing students for college work 24 00:01:48,519 --> 00:01:52,239 in life. But here's the thing. Parents didn't need another 25 00:01:52,359 --> 00:01:55,400 test to tell them this. They see it every day. 26 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:59,560 Let us begin there with the nation's report card and 27 00:01:59,599 --> 00:02:03,959 some of the startling results and what parents are telling 28 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:05,480 you about all of this. 29 00:02:06,319 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 2: You know, I appreciate the question and the thoughts. You know, 30 00:02:09,199 --> 00:02:13,560 it's a tragedy that we're in a situation where our 31 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,520 kids are not learning to the level they need to learn. 32 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:18,919 And this has been going on for such a long 33 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:21,199 time now, it's like, what does it take to get 34 00:02:21,199 --> 00:02:24,759 Americans into a crisis about education. I'm hoping maybe this 35 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,120 will finally help them do that. These numbers. You know, 36 00:02:28,159 --> 00:02:31,199 what parents are telling us is they're tired of their 37 00:02:31,319 --> 00:02:34,879 children being bullied. They're tired of their children being anxious 38 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,639 around tests. They're tired of their children not getting the 39 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,319 quality education they need. This is the data that we 40 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,360 have from all of our studies and reports that we 41 00:02:42,439 --> 00:02:46,400 do of parents all the time. They're just so frustrated 42 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:50,199 with the system, and we know why the systems not 43 00:02:50,319 --> 00:02:54,240 teaching them. We know why the system. Has. One of 44 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,879 my favorite statistics, which is really quite sad to say 45 00:02:56,879 --> 00:02:59,240 it's my favorite statistic, is that do you know that 46 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:03,000 since nineteen fifty there's been in seven hundred and fifty 47 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,639 percent increase in non teaching staff in America? 48 00:03:05,759 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: They're now more non teachers in education than amazing. This 49 00:03:09,039 --> 00:03:12,639 is just a problem. Yeah, that is a huge problem. 50 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:16,599 And I guess I'd like to expound upon that. Why 51 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:20,840 is that my hunches in part, we're seeing a lot 52 00:03:20,879 --> 00:03:33,759 of non teaching staff administrators and overseers and DEI initiative administrators. 53 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:38,479 There has been, i know, on college campuses an explosion 54 00:03:38,719 --> 00:03:43,840 of diversity, equity and inclusion officers. Is the same going 55 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,360 on in our pre K through twelve school system? 56 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 2: Well, I'm sure there were instances of that, but you've 57 00:03:51,719 --> 00:03:54,680 got to think about the problem here is that when 58 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:59,000 a state legislature sees a problem in education, they typically say, well, 59 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,039 the problem. Way to solve that is by putting another 60 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,280 mandate on public schools, you know, and so they add 61 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,400 layers and layers, and then when they say we care 62 00:04:06,439 --> 00:04:09,520 about mental health issues, the school system says, Oh, I 63 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:13,000 need to hire people. And so the challenge here is 64 00:04:13,039 --> 00:04:16,040 to make sure that the institutional arrangements of education work 65 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:19,160 for families they're not. The key reason that this is 66 00:04:19,199 --> 00:04:23,279 important that I say all the time is every year 67 00:04:23,399 --> 00:04:26,240 since I've been in this country, back in this country 68 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:28,279 from nineteen ninety six he was born here but then 69 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,480 came back from England. Every year since nineteen ninety six, 70 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:33,639 there's been over a million kids that have dropped out 71 00:04:33,639 --> 00:04:36,560 according to the data. Just think about that for a 72 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,920 little bit. There's thirty years of thirty million kids. There's 73 00:04:40,079 --> 00:04:44,680 generational poverty created because we can't educate our kids, and 74 00:04:45,439 --> 00:04:47,360 it's certainly not helping to make sure that we have 75 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,560 a whole bunch of of non teaching staff in the classroom. 76 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:52,600 So we need to get back to what we need 77 00:04:52,639 --> 00:04:54,600 to have as teachers in the classroom and families with 78 00:04:54,639 --> 00:04:55,279 more choices. 79 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess you know. We've been talking about this 80 00:04:59,199 --> 00:05:03,920 for a long time. Some are getting it, some are 81 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:06,759 doubling down on it. But let me ask you this question. 82 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,000 Over that time period, you mentioned how much money has 83 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:14,519 been thrown at the broken public education system in America, 84 00:05:15,199 --> 00:05:18,040 and has all of that money helped. 85 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 2: For your listeners. It's really important to know this. There 86 00:05:22,959 --> 00:05:27,040 is no credible data that shows a link between more 87 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:31,480 money and outcomes for kids. The data by Eric Knyuschek 88 00:05:31,519 --> 00:05:35,759 and others shows quite the opposite, that money doesn't have 89 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:39,560 a correlative effect to outcomes and quality. We know that 90 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,839 since nineteen seventy they spent they've increased spending on education 91 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,800 two hundred and fifty percent. That is over inflation. So 92 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,319 we know that there's more money going into the system. 93 00:05:50,639 --> 00:05:53,560 We know that there's no system that has lost money, 94 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,839 even in a school choice state, and so we know 95 00:05:57,959 --> 00:06:00,879 that money's not helping. We know that families want options. 96 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:03,040 It's really interesting what's happening in a state like Florida. 97 00:06:03,639 --> 00:06:05,920 You know, when we started tracking the data in Florida, 98 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,720 about eighty eight percent of the kids or so we're 99 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:12,360 going to their traditional assigned public school. Now, with all 100 00:06:12,439 --> 00:06:15,199 of the choices, there are only fifty one point eight 101 00:06:15,199 --> 00:06:19,000 percent going to traditional public schools. Interesting. It is a shift. 102 00:06:19,199 --> 00:06:23,000 When you allow a state to have choice through through charters, 103 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:27,040 choice through private schools, choice through other public schools, our 104 00:06:27,079 --> 00:06:30,439 magnet schools, you create this whole wide array of options 105 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,040 and families get a lot more diversity and services, and 106 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,399 what you're seeing in places like Florida and Arizona are 107 00:06:36,439 --> 00:06:37,439 better name scores. 108 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,439 Speaker 1: But Robert, what do the teachers unions want? Because that 109 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:45,160 really is the most important thing, at least according to 110 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:46,279 the teachers unions. 111 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:49,439 Speaker 2: Well, the teachers' unions don't want what we want. But 112 00:06:49,519 --> 00:06:53,800 you know who does like education savings accounts? Teachers? Parents, Oh, teachers. 113 00:06:54,079 --> 00:06:56,560 Teachers love it. If you look at our polling and data, 114 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,000 parents of course love it. But what we're finding is teachers, 115 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,399 I absolutely love the concept of education safety accounts because 116 00:07:03,439 --> 00:07:06,879 they feel it empowers them to do their job better. 117 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,079 One of the most interesting trends is the number of 118 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:14,000 educators who are leaving traditional schools and starting micro schools 119 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:18,000 or pods. These are teachers said I'm done with this system, 120 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,839 I'm done with union control. Give me the ability to 121 00:07:20,839 --> 00:07:23,759 control my classroom again. And that's what's happening around the country. 122 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: That's another issue altogether, teachers dealing with out of control classrooms. 123 00:07:30,759 --> 00:07:35,160 How much of that do you think is impacting the 124 00:07:35,199 --> 00:07:38,560 horrible numbers we're seeing. Well, I think it's hard for 125 00:07:38,639 --> 00:07:41,720 teachers who are in classroom situations where they don't feel 126 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:44,360 they have the power to control their classroom. For them 127 00:07:44,399 --> 00:07:47,319 to control their classroom, I think you don't find that 128 00:07:47,399 --> 00:07:48,920 in private schools and charter schools. 129 00:07:48,959 --> 00:07:51,279 Speaker 2: The data is really clear. If you want your child 130 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:53,759 in a safer environment, you send them to a private school. 131 00:07:53,759 --> 00:07:56,560 If you want their child in a more environment that's 132 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:00,839 more less anxious and less anxiety producing, you're seeing them 133 00:08:00,839 --> 00:08:02,480 to a school of choice. Whether it's a charter or 134 00:08:02,519 --> 00:08:06,319 a private school. These outcomes related to school safety and 135 00:08:06,439 --> 00:08:10,319 children's anxiety and mental health are better in places where 136 00:08:10,319 --> 00:08:14,240 more options are and our traditional system sadly isn't keeping up. 137 00:08:14,279 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 3: Now. 138 00:08:14,399 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 2: I think that's not the case all across the country. 139 00:08:16,399 --> 00:08:19,519 I think in places like Florida, and in places like 140 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:23,759 Ohio and Indiana and Arizona, where there's a robust choice, 141 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,079 you're seeing these sectors have to get better. 142 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,399 Speaker 1: We are seeing that where I am talking to you 143 00:08:30,439 --> 00:08:32,679 from the great state of Iowa. 144 00:08:32,919 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 2: Yes, right here. 145 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: In the Des Moines metro area. I think, for the 146 00:08:39,639 --> 00:08:44,480 most part, I've been pretty pleased with our public education system. 147 00:08:44,519 --> 00:08:46,559 Now I live in a suburb of Des Moines. I 148 00:08:46,639 --> 00:08:52,480 don't have a superintendent in charge of education who claims 149 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:56,279 to be a doctor and have all of these degrees 150 00:08:56,879 --> 00:09:00,120 when he doesn't and claims to be a US citizen, 151 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:04,080 he is not. I speak, of course, of the great 152 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:10,559 controversy involving Ian Roberts, who was the superintendent up until 153 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,879 about a month ago of the Des Moines Public school system. 154 00:09:14,399 --> 00:09:17,440 But we have found out a great deal over that 155 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:20,200 last month that Ian Roberts in fact was in a 156 00:09:20,279 --> 00:09:24,879 legal immigrant with a long criminal record including guns violations 157 00:09:24,879 --> 00:09:29,440 and drug violations. He was heralded two years ago as 158 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:34,759 just a breath of fresh air on the diversity, equity 159 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:41,799 inclusion front. He is a black man from Guyana. He 160 00:09:41,919 --> 00:09:45,639 is again not a US citizen, something that a lot 161 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,639 of folks in the Des Moines School district are asking, 162 00:09:49,039 --> 00:09:52,399 how could something like this happen. I bring all of 163 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:58,360 this up by way of saying that where my kids 164 00:09:58,399 --> 00:10:02,240 go to school, there is is you know, a pretty 165 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:06,919 pretty good environment. But they still complain about kids who 166 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,480 are extremely disruptive and teachers not being able to do 167 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:14,840 anything about that. If there's no accountability on that front, 168 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:20,360 and there's no accountability on who you hire as a superintendent, Houston, 169 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:21,440 we have a problem here, don't we. 170 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's certainly tragic to hear what happened with 171 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:28,240 your superintendent situation. You know that only hurts kids and 172 00:10:28,279 --> 00:10:31,120 certainly hurts the credibility of des Moines public schools and 173 00:10:31,159 --> 00:10:33,559 their public school board, and I hope that there's a 174 00:10:33,639 --> 00:10:37,120 level of accountability around that going forward. I will tell 175 00:10:37,159 --> 00:10:42,360 you that families are experiencing issues in public education regardless 176 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:44,440 of whether there's a good school or a bad school 177 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:47,120 that are similar. But because a one size fits all 178 00:10:47,159 --> 00:10:50,919 system doesn't work anymore. Right, This idea that you can 179 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:53,720 go to one school where you're assigned where you live, 180 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:56,200 and then it's going to solve all of your problems 181 00:10:56,279 --> 00:10:59,679 is not very realistic in modern society. And that's why, 182 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,200 for example, in your great state of Iowa, you have 183 00:11:02,279 --> 00:11:06,360 a choice program, a universal ESA program, which grew forty 184 00:11:06,399 --> 00:11:09,200 one percent a year over year, so it grew from 185 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:12,200 twenty six nine and ninety six kids in year one 186 00:11:12,639 --> 00:11:16,080 to thirty eighty one and one in year two. There's 187 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,480 dramatic growth in your choice program because families are like, 188 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:22,320 I don't want a one size fits all. I want 189 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:24,879 a system that's more aligned with my values and my needs. 190 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:27,399 And there are lots of options as you mentioned before, 191 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,480 and that's good. I mean, let's take a look back. 192 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:32,320 I mean, I think. 193 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:36,879 Speaker 1: Of thirty plus years ago, thirty five years ago and 194 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:42,200 some of the early foundational school choice programs out there. 195 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:45,879 In the state of Wisconsin. Governor Tommy Thompson was a 196 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,480 pioneer of that in the late eighties and early nineties 197 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:53,519 started the Milwaukee school choice program. Has had a good 198 00:11:53,519 --> 00:11:58,120 deal of success over the years, and eventually, slowly but surely, 199 00:11:58,799 --> 00:12:02,679 two decades later, you had the expansion of school choice 200 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:06,759 across the state of Wisconsin. Other states are following suit. 201 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:14,000 You mentioned Iowa. That choice is happening in multiple different 202 00:12:14,039 --> 00:12:16,919 areas though, and it's not just the voucher systems you 203 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:22,759 mentioned open and open enrollment. How much of that is 204 00:12:23,039 --> 00:12:27,679 impacting for the positive in the education system. 205 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 2: It's having the impact for the positive because these school 206 00:12:31,279 --> 00:12:35,159 systems that have been so able to not have to 207 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,399 deal with competition for such a long time because only 208 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:40,919 families that could afford it would move to private schools. 209 00:12:41,519 --> 00:12:44,120 Now all families get access to the money to go 210 00:12:44,159 --> 00:12:47,120 to private schools or charter schools or other options, and 211 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:51,039 so they're absolutely having to get their act together and 212 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:53,519 respond better and in fact so much so in Iowa. 213 00:12:53,519 --> 00:12:55,159 I just want you to know, we actually do something 214 00:12:55,159 --> 00:12:57,879 every year called the ed choice Share, which is what 215 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,080 percentage of families go to different school types, whether it's 216 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:05,960 traditional public schools, magnet schools, open enrollment charter schools, homeschools, 217 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,279 and private schools. And Iowa has jumped up to number 218 00:13:09,279 --> 00:13:12,639 five in the country on this just in the last 219 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:18,320 two years. You have now a over you have almost 220 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:20,840 six and a half percent going to other public schools 221 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:25,320 across district lines choosing other public schools. You have your 222 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:28,559 Educational Choice programmer ESA is now it's seven point four 223 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,080 percent of all the kids of the state. Your charter 224 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:33,360 schools have grown to four point four percent of all 225 00:13:33,399 --> 00:13:36,679 the kids, Your magnet schools are at one percent, and 226 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:39,960 your your homeschoolings at five percent. So you're creating a 227 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,440 state of educational options that's only going to grow. 228 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 3: If you want to be wealthy, you have to have 229 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:48,559 a wealthy mindset. 230 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 4: How the Watchdot on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski 231 00:13:52,039 --> 00:13:54,879 every day. Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and 232 00:13:54,919 --> 00:13:56,720 the economy and how it affects your wallet. 233 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:01,759 Speaker 3: Walk away from easy money of the headlines because ninety 234 00:14:01,799 --> 00:14:05,720 five percent of them are garbage. Always continued to reinvest. 235 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,039 Speaker 4: Whether it's happening in DC or down on Wall Street, 236 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:09,279 it's affecting you financially. 237 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:09,879 Speaker 2: Be informed. 238 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 4: Check out the Watchdot on Wall Street podcast with Chris 239 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:15,039 Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. 240 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: I think a lot of that has to do with 241 00:14:20,639 --> 00:14:24,440 some of the abysmal education. For instance, we have seen 242 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:30,039 abysmal numbers in the Des Moines school system, for instance. 243 00:14:30,679 --> 00:14:33,759 I know that in the Milwaukee Public school system. Both 244 00:14:33,799 --> 00:14:41,039 of those school systems have seen dramatic declining enrollment over 245 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:44,360 the last several years, and that has much to do 246 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:48,799 with the choice that is involved. I'm curious what you're 247 00:14:48,919 --> 00:14:55,600 seeing in terms of the national nationwide report card where 248 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:01,480 the you know the problems are. Are they significantly higher 249 00:15:01,759 --> 00:15:07,159 in urban school areas. Are they significantly higher in say 250 00:15:07,399 --> 00:15:10,320 blue states that aren't allowing choice. 251 00:15:10,759 --> 00:15:12,879 Speaker 2: No, I think it's different, and let me go back. 252 00:15:13,399 --> 00:15:15,360 I quote it Indiana numbers. Let me give you Iowa 253 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,559 numbers real quick. Iowa doesn't have a huge charter school population, 254 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,440 but they're growing. Your choice program is now at seven percent, 255 00:15:22,519 --> 00:15:26,120 so you're seeing a lot of options in Iowa, and 256 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,159 you're actually number six in the country, slightly behind my 257 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,960 home state of Indiana. Here's the answer to your question. 258 00:15:34,279 --> 00:15:39,039 That is, we're seeing problems in urban areas particularly, but 259 00:15:39,159 --> 00:15:43,279 we're also seeing problems in suburban areas and in rural areas. 260 00:15:43,279 --> 00:15:47,039 We're seeing problems across the board. Now, do wealthier families 261 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,240 do better than poor families? Yes, do white families tend 262 00:15:50,279 --> 00:15:54,120 to do better than black and brown families, yes, those 263 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:58,759 are based on tests. But even our wealthiest, smartest kids, 264 00:15:59,159 --> 00:16:01,080 if you look at our he's results, which are the 265 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:05,000 international tests, are the dumbest in the world. Right, so 266 00:16:05,399 --> 00:16:07,639 we have a long way to go. If less than 267 00:16:07,679 --> 00:16:10,440 forty percent of all kids in America can read, regardless 268 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:11,120 of color. 269 00:16:11,039 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: That is, that's a powerful assessment. How did we go 270 00:16:16,519 --> 00:16:22,200 from the brightest in the world to the dumbest in 271 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:24,840 the world in the span of what forty years? 272 00:16:25,159 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 2: So I think that's because people don't understand what it 273 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:31,840 means to have a monopoly anymore, and they don't think 274 00:16:31,879 --> 00:16:34,919 the government runs a monopoly except to this case it 275 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,559 does in the form of its K twelve education system. 276 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:39,960 If you look back to the nineteen fifties, in the 277 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:44,639 nineteen seventies, you saw around somewhere between fifty thousand and 278 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,480 seventy thousand school districts in America. Right, It was a 279 00:16:47,519 --> 00:16:51,240 lot of competition because there was a lot of school districts. Today, 280 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:54,399 there's only about thirteen thousand school districts in America for 281 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:58,080 a population twice as large. When you centralize that, and 282 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:00,600 then when you make it as sort of monopolistic provision, 283 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:02,799 and then when you make it so that you can't 284 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:07,759 have individualization and customization, you really do make it impossible 285 00:17:07,759 --> 00:17:10,920 to educate to anything but the middle. You know, we 286 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:12,759 certainly don't help the kids who are the least, and 287 00:17:12,759 --> 00:17:14,599 we certainly don't help the kids who are the gifted. 288 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:16,319 And so we've got a long way to go and 289 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:17,480 choices a way to do that. 290 00:17:18,039 --> 00:17:22,880 Speaker 1: But wait a minute, now, I remember about twenty plus 291 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,960 years ago, twenty five years ago, we were in the 292 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:30,359 process of leaving no child behind. Seems to me, based 293 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,839 on these studies and what you're finding, we've left a 294 00:17:33,839 --> 00:17:36,680 lot of children behind. Since then, we've left far too 295 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:37,440 many children behind. 296 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:37,559 Speaker 4: Me. 297 00:17:37,599 --> 00:17:41,079 Speaker 2: Look, we've had episodic periods of change. So after the 298 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,720 Nation at Risk Report, right, if you remember that, you 299 00:17:43,799 --> 00:17:47,240 know where they said, if a foreign government would have 300 00:17:47,319 --> 00:17:49,359 done this to us, we would have declared it an 301 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:53,359 active war, right to you know, and that created some 302 00:17:53,559 --> 00:17:56,240 change early on we needed to do some standards and 303 00:17:56,279 --> 00:17:59,359 we created the whole standards movement, you know. Unfortunately, response 304 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,200 to noil to know a nation at risk was to 305 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,680 force down standards, right and create state tests. And the 306 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,119 result of that is sort of a monopoly of standards, 307 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:12,000 which again they get lowered and changed and gamed around. 308 00:18:13,039 --> 00:18:16,519 What we did in the two thousands with George Bush's 309 00:18:16,559 --> 00:18:18,720 sort of no Child Left Behind is we made it 310 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:22,880 really heavy top down accountability, which is unsustainable over time, right, 311 00:18:23,319 --> 00:18:25,799 And so the problem is you saw takes upwards and 312 00:18:25,839 --> 00:18:28,640 then the system just reverts to the mean. You know, 313 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:30,680 they call it actually in science, they call it regression 314 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,559 to the mean. And this is what's happening in schooling 315 00:18:33,599 --> 00:18:38,279 because it needs outside external pressure in order to reform itself. 316 00:18:39,599 --> 00:18:43,400 Speaker 1: It certainly does, and you know, it makes you wonder 317 00:18:43,799 --> 00:18:50,440 after all of this time, curriculum is part of the problem. 318 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:55,160 And standardize curriculum in so many ways, not to say 319 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,759 that there isn't you know, standardized things that kids need 320 00:18:59,799 --> 00:19:02,279 to know and math and sciences and history and all 321 00:19:02,319 --> 00:19:05,759 of those sorts of things. But I'm curious what you 322 00:19:05,799 --> 00:19:11,640 think about the common Core path and the effect that 323 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:15,079 that has had on public education in America over the 324 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:16,359 last fifteen years. 325 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 2: If a one size fits all institutional let me say 326 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,400 that again, if a one size fits all institutional structure 327 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,079 has not helped for all kids, there's no way that 328 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:28,799 a one sized curriculum is going to work for all kids, 329 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,279 or a one sized testing system is going to work 330 00:19:31,319 --> 00:19:34,240 for all kids. We need to be thoughtful. I mean, 331 00:19:34,279 --> 00:19:35,960 I can't believe we're in the twenty first century and 332 00:19:36,039 --> 00:19:38,640 we still deliver education in every single way like it's 333 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,920 in the eighteenth century. We have to really think about 334 00:19:42,039 --> 00:19:46,359 modernizing our systems, and we just seem to reflexively go 335 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,680 against that. You know, we have to figure out ways 336 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:54,200 where we can have standards and completion. But that doesn't 337 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:56,480 have to be about seat time. Let me give you 338 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,440 an example of what I mean. If my son in 339 00:19:59,519 --> 00:20:02,240 high school can test out of the high school English, 340 00:20:02,519 --> 00:20:04,599 why does he ever need to take another English course 341 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,559 he lets tests out. Why can't he go somewhere else 342 00:20:08,559 --> 00:20:11,519 and do something that interests him, even if it's more English. Great, 343 00:20:11,799 --> 00:20:14,759 but if it's more math, that's great too. But the 344 00:20:14,799 --> 00:20:17,200 way the system is structured is he has to learn 345 00:20:17,519 --> 00:20:19,960 a certain course every year in order to graduate, to 346 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:23,000 get these things called Carnegie units or credits. We have 347 00:20:23,039 --> 00:20:27,440 to start institutionalizing the arrangements of education, whether it's curriculum 348 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,359 testing or how we deliver schooling by where you live. 349 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,400 I mean, this is a major problem that we have 350 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,440 a delivery mechanism that looks like it's the same as 351 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:38,240 eighteen forty. 352 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,519 Speaker 1: Our guest today is Robert Enlow, President and CEO of 353 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,440 ed Choyce. We're talking about where things stand in public 354 00:20:46,599 --> 00:20:52,640 education today and based on the latest testing results, not 355 00:20:52,759 --> 00:20:56,759 good is the quick assessment on that front. Now there's 356 00:20:56,799 --> 00:20:59,839 the vocational side of things too, where you know, we've 357 00:21:00,079 --> 00:21:05,160 we've for decades it has been you know, drive kids 358 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:10,880 to that four year college, you know, drive kids to 359 00:21:12,519 --> 00:21:18,960 institutions of higher education, post secondary education, and not everybody 360 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:20,000 is interested. 361 00:21:20,039 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 2: In the past. 362 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:25,759 Speaker 1: We've seen a change somewhat on that front, but that too, 363 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,799 is i would imagine, is impacting some of the numbers 364 00:21:29,839 --> 00:21:30,319 we're seeing. 365 00:21:30,839 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 2: Oh, it's totally changing the numbers are seeing, you know. 366 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,480 And again, let me make sure that I say one thing, 367 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,119 the public knows exactly how this is going. This is why, 368 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:43,920 well almost seventy percent of everyone in America says education 369 00:21:44,079 --> 00:21:47,240 in K twelve is on the wrong track. And parents 370 00:21:47,279 --> 00:21:51,720 who are who also incredibly high rates almost sixty percent 371 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:54,759 say it's on the wrong track. So this is a 372 00:21:54,799 --> 00:21:59,279 real challenge right that we are seeing parents and the 373 00:21:59,319 --> 00:22:02,759 public know that we're on the wrong track. Now, what's 374 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,680 interesting and heartening is we're beginning to see this idea 375 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,880 that you know, a place like Indiana, we're changing our 376 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:13,599 graduation pathways to allow for much more flexibility around apprenticeships, 377 00:22:14,079 --> 00:22:17,240 much more flexibility around creating jobs that are the old 378 00:22:17,319 --> 00:22:19,880 kind of jobs that we used to talk about, you know, 379 00:22:20,039 --> 00:22:23,880 the auto shop jobs, the welding jobs. There's a lot 380 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,200 of those out there, and I think what we're beginning 381 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,279 to see is some flexibility around how states are going 382 00:22:29,319 --> 00:22:32,920 to deliver opportunities for kids in those worlds. Instead of 383 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,960 saying you only have to go to four year college, right, 384 00:22:36,039 --> 00:22:39,119 they're saying you can maybe do this apprenticeship, or maybe 385 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,000 you could get this apprenticeship done by the time you're 386 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,559 out of high school. It's a lot of opportunity coming. 387 00:22:43,599 --> 00:22:45,880 I think good. That's good to hear. 388 00:22:46,079 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 1: Let's take a look at some core numbers here if 389 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,559 we could, because that's at the end of the day. 390 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:55,359 The argument from the dejocrats in the public school system, 391 00:22:55,480 --> 00:23:00,640 the public school industrial complex, if you will, has been 392 00:23:02,559 --> 00:23:06,519 the same for such a long time and very very territorial. 393 00:23:06,559 --> 00:23:11,920 As we know, how are our students faring in choice 394 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:19,440 programs and maybe to break it down, vouchers, systems, charters, homeschooling, 395 00:23:20,319 --> 00:23:23,480 open enrollment, all of those different facets, how are they 396 00:23:23,519 --> 00:23:31,319 comparing to their fellow students in the traditional public school system. 397 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:34,759 Speaker 2: So I love that you asked this question. And obviously 398 00:23:34,759 --> 00:23:36,960 I'm an expert when it comes to the data on 399 00:23:37,079 --> 00:23:39,640 private school choice, and I know a lot about the 400 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,799 data on charter schools. Here's what I know about the 401 00:23:43,839 --> 00:23:47,640 private school choice side of it. Families and children who 402 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:52,839 attend private schools using a scholarship tend to perform slightly 403 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,680 better over time on tests. Right. There's not a huge 404 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,559 difference on tests, right, but slightly better over time. Some 405 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:02,599 programs in the first couple of years see a dip, 406 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,240 and then they come back and surpass their peers by 407 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:09,000 the fourth and third and fourth year, so over time 408 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,359 you see kids do slightly better on tests. Here's where 409 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:15,599 it gets really good. Kids in these programs attain at 410 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,039 higher rates, they graduated at higher rates, they matriculate into 411 00:24:19,079 --> 00:24:23,160 college and secondary degrees at higher rates, and they persist 412 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,000 in those at higher rates. That same data is true 413 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,720 of charter schools. So on one side you see both 414 00:24:28,799 --> 00:24:32,759 charter schools and private schools better serving kids on test scores. 415 00:24:33,319 --> 00:24:35,839 In the private school community, it's a slightly big difference, 416 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,160 not a huge one, and they are all having significantly 417 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:43,039 better results for kids graduating and moving to college. But 418 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:44,720 if that's all we were cared about, that would be 419 00:24:44,759 --> 00:24:48,960 a success. But we know from the data that states 420 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:53,119 that have choice programs matt find their public schools improving faster. 421 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,960 This is data that's really clear from across I don't 422 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,000 think there's hardly anyone who disagrees with this. The competitive 423 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,960 effects the school choice are positive for public schools. The 424 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,160 other data that I think is really important, and this 425 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,920 this is also true of charter schools. Kids are having 426 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,839 better civic outcomes like in the voucher receiving private schools 427 00:25:12,839 --> 00:25:16,400 and charter schools, kids are more tolerant of other people's opinions. 428 00:25:17,079 --> 00:25:21,039 They're more willing to engage in dialogue and debate. Right, 429 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:25,200 their families vote more. There's a lot of positive outcomes 430 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,920 coming from these from the data that we've seen, and 431 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:32,400 so like all the other I say this, parents satisfaction 432 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,279 in these programs is through the roof. If that were 433 00:25:35,319 --> 00:25:38,559 a metric in our traditional schools, we wouldn't be having conversations. 434 00:25:38,559 --> 00:25:42,480 Money would be pouring in. Yeah, right, So look across 435 00:25:42,519 --> 00:25:46,240 the board. The programs are providing a better quality of 436 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,400 education for all the types of families, and that's what 437 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:50,039 we care about. 438 00:25:50,599 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 1: That's fascinating because yes, we you know, we fixate understandably 439 00:25:55,279 --> 00:25:59,240 so to a point on the test scores and how 440 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,759 kids are are faring academically. But there are so many 441 00:26:02,799 --> 00:26:05,960 other important components to that, and you mentioned a significant 442 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:11,279 one that I think is absolutely fundamental to the health 443 00:26:11,319 --> 00:26:17,440 of this republic, And you mentioned the civic involvement, engagement, 444 00:26:17,519 --> 00:26:24,000 the civic success that we're seeing in choice schools, and 445 00:26:24,039 --> 00:26:30,400 the one area in particular, individuals, human beings, adults that 446 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:37,559 are more tolerant of opposing opinions. We take a look 447 00:26:37,559 --> 00:26:41,039 at what's happening in Washington, DC these days, they could 448 00:26:41,039 --> 00:26:45,960 take a lesson. I think from that level of success, Yeah, I. 449 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:50,319 Speaker 2: Think we want to see children behaving better and having 450 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,920 civic arrangements and civic values that are good for them. 451 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:58,079 So you know they do these, How will the effect 452 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:03,039 affect these kids? And so what we're finding about through 453 00:27:03,039 --> 00:27:08,720 these questionnaires is no study has found any negative effects. 454 00:27:08,759 --> 00:27:12,200 There's been eleven studies done of this issue, right, none 455 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,119 of them have found negative effects, right, And I think 456 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,839 that's incredible. Students, for example, and who participated in Milwaukee's 457 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:24,480 voucher program compared to their public school districts, and they 458 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,960 looked at their likelihood to engage in criminal activity. They 459 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,640 actually found that the kids in the voucher progroom was 460 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:35,880 associated with lower rates of criminal activity. These are positive 461 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,319 outcomes that we should be happy for as as a society. 462 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:43,160 Speaker 1: Yes, those more maybe more than at this point as 463 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:49,119 we see the wreckage of society, maybe that is more 464 00:27:49,279 --> 00:27:55,000 important than any academic number at a certain level. Of course, 465 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,640 we're referring to and I should note this ad choice 466 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,319 is twenty twenty five Schooling and America Survey. You've been 467 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,359 doing this for a long time. I'm curious what your 468 00:28:05,559 --> 00:28:10,400 survey this year found in how teachers are feeling in 469 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:15,519 public schools, because if you're going to see change in 470 00:28:15,599 --> 00:28:21,440 the right direction, it has to begin there in the classroom. 471 00:28:21,759 --> 00:28:25,640 Speaker 2: Well, as you know, teachers are often the most pessimistic 472 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:30,839 about their own situation, and they are We actually do 473 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,799 something called the Public Opinion Tracker, where we have been 474 00:28:33,839 --> 00:28:37,160 tracking sort of tea teacher and public opinion for the 475 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:42,359 last five years. And so what's amazing is we just 476 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,599 did a teacher survey this last April, so we do 477 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,680 want a quarter here, and what we found when teachers 478 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:55,680 were asked about their supportive of education to Saints accounts 479 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,279 they're feeling but when you look at themselves and how 480 00:28:59,319 --> 00:29:04,000 they're talking about their our own industry, nearly one third 481 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,920 of all teachers are saying they're overwhelmed. They're expressing high 482 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,799 levels of pessimism when it comes to the teaching profession. 483 00:29:11,319 --> 00:29:14,599 Right now, private school teachers are much more positive than 484 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,839 our public school teachers. But there's a challenge here that 485 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:23,839 teachers are not feeling very supported. They're feeling overwhelmed. And 486 00:29:24,519 --> 00:29:28,640 it's interesting more than half of teachers in our survey 487 00:29:28,759 --> 00:29:31,839 think that laws pass to limit the teaching of divisive 488 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:36,519 topics are bad or unnecessary. That's interesting, But what's really 489 00:29:36,559 --> 00:29:39,720 important here is they believe in the essays. I was 490 00:29:39,759 --> 00:29:42,799 really blown away by the level of support for education 491 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:48,359 savans accounts. A majority of all teachers support education savans accounts. 492 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,759 Speaker 1: Let's talk about those education savings accounts, because that was 493 00:29:52,799 --> 00:29:56,480 a concept dreamed of a long time ago. To get 494 00:29:56,519 --> 00:29:59,440 buy in, of course, it's taken a lot of time, 495 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,920 and you know there's a long way to go on 496 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:07,400 that front. But how many states are using them, employing them, 497 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,960 and where do you see it all going from here? 498 00:30:10,759 --> 00:30:14,359 Speaker 2: So we looked at we track the bills that are 499 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,759 released every year. I think they're about ninety bills that 500 00:30:16,799 --> 00:30:20,960 have been introduced in twenty twenty five for educational choice programs. 501 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,680 Seventy percent of about sixty eight percent of them or 502 00:30:23,799 --> 00:30:26,920 education savings account related. So the vast majority of the 503 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:32,079 reform going forward is definitely going to be essays in 504 00:30:32,359 --> 00:30:35,680 essays are now I believe in seventeen or eighteen states. Fully, 505 00:30:36,759 --> 00:30:39,880 some of the states like Florida, Arkansas, or West Virginia, 506 00:30:40,079 --> 00:30:45,279 Arizona and Indiana and New Hampshire are we consider the 507 00:30:45,319 --> 00:30:48,720 best states. They're fully universal, which is really good. So 508 00:30:48,759 --> 00:30:53,480 it's exciting to see the growth of this conversation around 509 00:30:53,759 --> 00:30:57,440 school choice and essays. And it's going to go to 510 00:30:57,519 --> 00:30:59,440 teachers too. In fact, to here, let me, I just 511 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,240 pulled these up. Seventy five percent of all teachers generally 512 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:08,119 support education savings accounts. That's forty percent of them, right, 513 00:31:08,359 --> 00:31:13,400 Almost almost forty percent of them strongly support them, which 514 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,799 those are huge number compared to those are percent who 515 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:20,079 strongly opposed. Definitely, those are significant numbers. And it tells 516 00:31:20,119 --> 00:31:23,920 you that the narrative that you're hearing from, you know, 517 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:28,519 the teachers' unions is not correct, that teachers do indeed 518 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:34,480 back these and for reasons that you stated before. There's 519 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:39,440 been a lot of talk over the last several months, 520 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:44,000 in particular Trump two point zero about the failings of 521 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:48,599 the Federal Department of Education, and folks have different thoughts 522 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:53,720 on that. You know, this this bureaucracy that was created 523 00:31:54,119 --> 00:31:57,839 in the Carter administration, came to life in nineteen eighty, 524 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,119 has been around for forty five years. Is now how. 525 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 1: Much has the Federal Department of Education, which only has 526 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:14,079 so much financial stake in all of this and how 527 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:20,119 much has that department impacted what we're seeing out there today. 528 00:32:20,319 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 2: So that's a great question, and we've got to remember 529 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:26,599 that the Department of Education, as a cabinet level department 530 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,640 was created in nineteen eighty. It actually started as a 531 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,920 cabinet level department way back in the eighteen I think 532 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:37,079 eighteen forties or eighteen sixties, and then it became demoted 533 00:32:37,119 --> 00:32:39,559 to sort of a non cabinet position, and then it 534 00:32:39,599 --> 00:32:42,920 got elevated again. So we've had a Department of Education 535 00:32:43,039 --> 00:32:46,519 for a long time now, and its original job was 536 00:32:46,599 --> 00:32:50,559 to survey the condition of education in America. What it 537 00:32:50,599 --> 00:32:54,400 has become is a compliance factory. So I used to know, 538 00:32:55,599 --> 00:32:59,000 I still know former Superintendent of Arizona, Lisa Graham Keegan, 539 00:32:59,039 --> 00:33:01,559 a dear friend who used to say to me, I 540 00:33:01,599 --> 00:33:04,079 get nine percent of my money from the federal government, 541 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,920 but fifty percent of my staff is used for their compliance. 542 00:33:08,319 --> 00:33:11,640 And so the challenges you have with the federal government's 543 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:17,039 intervention and involvement in state education is a compliance challenge, 544 00:33:17,279 --> 00:33:20,279 a regulatory and compliance challenge that makes it harder for 545 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,960 them to do their job. But it's important that they 546 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,039 do their job, like, for example, for special needs students 547 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,200 or to fund kids who need it. More So, there's 548 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,359 funding requirements that I think need to still be carried 549 00:33:32,359 --> 00:33:34,960 out in American education. They don't have to be carried 550 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,279 out at the Department of Education, but they still need 551 00:33:37,319 --> 00:33:40,039 to be carried out. The majority of Americans don't want 552 00:33:40,079 --> 00:33:45,119 to eliminate the work of the Department of Education. A 553 00:33:45,319 --> 00:33:49,480 slightly fewer are opposed to getting rid of it. So 554 00:33:49,519 --> 00:33:52,920 what I'm saying here is the work of the Department 555 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,519 of Education is supported by the majority of Americans. So 556 00:33:55,799 --> 00:33:58,880 fund education, make sure the kids of special needs are 557 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:03,000 getting the services. While they still support having a Department 558 00:34:03,039 --> 00:34:05,480 of Education, a lot fewer of them are saying you 559 00:34:05,599 --> 00:34:07,920 have to only do it through the Department of Education. 560 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:10,840 Speaker 1: Well, I can tell you this, The Department of Education 561 00:34:11,039 --> 00:34:13,760 has been weaponized over the years. And I know that 562 00:34:14,159 --> 00:34:17,320 for sure because I have done some investigative reporting on 563 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:22,360 the Milwaukee schools system under the Obama administration, and you know, 564 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:29,599 the Department of Justice, dear colleague, letters into actual you know, 565 00:34:29,679 --> 00:34:35,440 physical investigations and I'll say it, harassment of the choice 566 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:41,480 schools in Milwaukee. You know, that is the definition of 567 00:34:42,079 --> 00:34:48,599 weaponization of justice in America, driven by politics. So I 568 00:34:48,639 --> 00:34:53,679 can understand from that point of view that these voucher 569 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:58,800 schools in Milwaukee and school choice schools across the country 570 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:06,920 have misgiven about this Department of Education, and they should right. 571 00:35:07,079 --> 00:35:10,599 Speaker 2: And so I remember those dear colleague letters to and 572 00:35:10,639 --> 00:35:14,000 they were going after vouchers receiving schools in Milwaukee who 573 00:35:14,039 --> 00:35:16,920 were serving special needs kids or who they say weren't 574 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,480 serving specially needs kids, but they were. This is a 575 00:35:19,519 --> 00:35:23,239 real challenge that the former departments have been weaponized, particularly 576 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,480 through the civil rights and Look, we want to make 577 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,920 sure the kids who have special needs get the services 578 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,800 they need, but we don't want to assist the department 579 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:34,880 to be weaponized against a school type. 580 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,519 Speaker 1: Yeah, no doubt about it. Kind of a dark chapter 581 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:48,280 for that department over the years. What happens, I mean, 582 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:52,760 this is the ultimate question. What happens if we don't 583 00:35:53,039 --> 00:35:57,440 get this right And we've had failing scores for a 584 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,599 long time now. You mentioned how we compare on the 585 00:36:01,639 --> 00:36:05,920 international scale not very well. What happens if we don't 586 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:07,960 get this thing straightened out and get it down the 587 00:36:08,039 --> 00:36:08,519 right path. 588 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:10,960 Speaker 2: Man, That's a great question and a good question to 589 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,960 sort of think about the end in the sense that 590 00:36:14,679 --> 00:36:17,920 Rose Friedman said. Milton's wife said, if you can't read, 591 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,719 you can't write, you can't compute, you don't understand history. 592 00:36:21,119 --> 00:36:24,559 Who's going to govern the affairs of our country? I 593 00:36:24,599 --> 00:36:27,760 think there's a real question about the future of governance 594 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:32,320 of our country. And for a more modern idea, there's 595 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,360 a movie out there called Idiocracy that I would encourage 596 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,239 everyone in the listing audience to reach to watch. That 597 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,039 is the future that scares the heck out of me, right, 598 00:36:43,119 --> 00:36:46,559 but even more importantly currently what's happening is if you 599 00:36:46,639 --> 00:36:49,199 want to know why there's a distinction and a growing 600 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,199 and a growing distinction between the haves and the have nots, 601 00:36:52,559 --> 00:36:55,800 it's education. If you want to know why there's growing 602 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,360 gaps between those who have money and those who don't, 603 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,079 it's education. And Act says to education right and access 604 00:37:02,119 --> 00:37:05,480 to learning. If you want to solve the problem of 605 00:37:07,119 --> 00:37:10,840 our stratification of society, then you're trying to give families 606 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,119 more options and more choices. That's what Milton Friedman said. 607 00:37:14,519 --> 00:37:18,239 He said, the biggest problem is that we've stratified society 608 00:37:18,559 --> 00:37:21,760 through our education system, and we it's gotten worse now. 609 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,880 I think with choice programs you'll see it getting better. 610 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,920 One metric we should be all looking at is in 611 00:37:27,039 --> 00:37:31,679 choice states, which is our families earning more over time. 612 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:33,599 My hole. 613 00:37:34,119 --> 00:37:38,159 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that's that's absolutely foundational to everything you just 614 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:44,440 mentioned about the future of this country. I want within 615 00:37:44,559 --> 00:37:48,800 all of that the context of the disparity though that 616 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:53,639 is going on in education. And we know inherently that 617 00:37:53,679 --> 00:37:58,800 there has been disparate education for a long time, and 618 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,599 you know, at some level that will probably never change. 619 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:09,519 That said, what about the disparity between choice options from 620 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:10,880 state to state. 621 00:38:11,559 --> 00:38:14,559 Speaker 2: You know, we have growing. 622 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:21,199 Speaker 1: School choice programs in certain states, but teachers' unions that 623 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:26,159 hold the reins of power, particularly in blue states, are 624 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,480 stopping this movement from happening. How do you go up 625 00:38:30,519 --> 00:38:36,239 against that so that everybody, every family, every student can 626 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,079 share in the benefits of choice. 627 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 2: So I tell you what's going to be interesting. The 628 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,679 federal tax credit that just passed, right, So in the 629 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,440 One Big Beautiful bill, there was a federal tax credit 630 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:50,760 for scholarships program that passed or not program, a tax 631 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,920 credit that was passed, and I think that will help 632 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,440 blue states get on par with red states if they 633 00:38:58,559 --> 00:39:03,280 choose to opt in. It will allow every participating taxpayer 634 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:05,880 to get a seventeen hundred dollars dollar for dollar credit 635 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:10,840 if they give to a nonprofit group that gives out scholarships. Now, 636 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,199 how incredible would that be in a state like Massachusetts, 637 00:39:13,199 --> 00:39:16,159 where you could gather donors from across the state to 638 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,000 help children in public, charter and private schools. I think 639 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,679 what you're going to find though, is Blue states won't 640 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,280 take it, and a lot of the money from donors 641 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,000 is going to go to other states. And I think 642 00:39:28,039 --> 00:39:31,039 that will help encourage blue state governors to opt into 643 00:39:31,079 --> 00:39:34,400 this program over time, and they'll have more choices as 644 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,440 a result. That is good to. 645 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:40,119 Speaker 1: Hear, But ultimately it's going to come down to the administrators, 646 00:39:40,119 --> 00:39:42,679 to the governments in charge of all of this sort 647 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:47,880 of stuff, and if they make the choices for the kids, 648 00:39:48,559 --> 00:39:51,639 then the kids will benefit. If they make the choices 649 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:56,480 for their benefactors to their campaigns, we're talking about a 650 00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,920 worsening of this situation for those who for those who 651 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,280 we don't know, please give us a little more information, 652 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,159 a little more insight on ED Choice. 653 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,079 Speaker 2: Yeah. So, ED Choice is the legacy foundation of Milton 654 00:40:11,119 --> 00:40:14,079 and Rose Friedman, and we have one simple mission. Every 655 00:40:14,159 --> 00:40:17,480 child should be free to access every educational option in 656 00:40:17,519 --> 00:40:20,519 America with all of the available dollars set aside for 657 00:40:20,559 --> 00:40:23,880 that children. That's what we believe, and we achieve that 658 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:28,039 through our research, our training, our advocacy, and our litigation work. 659 00:40:28,079 --> 00:40:30,719 And so we're excited to be I think now the 660 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:36,039 nation's oldest school choice organization in America supporting universal choice. 661 00:40:36,039 --> 00:40:38,440 And so we have been going for thirty years to 662 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,559 carry out Milton's vision. We've grown from a state time 663 00:40:41,599 --> 00:40:44,400 when we had six choice programs in America to now 664 00:40:44,519 --> 00:40:47,000 I think we have seventy four in operating in thirty 665 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:51,039 five states, DC and Puerto Rico. There are now almost 666 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,840 half of children in America are eligible to sign up 667 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,679 for a program. This is great news. We're making huge 668 00:40:57,679 --> 00:41:01,119 progress an ed Choice which can be founded EdChoice dot org. 669 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:04,519 It can be said to be one of the leaders 670 00:41:04,599 --> 00:41:04,920 of that. 671 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,800 Speaker 1: Effort, indeed, and that's where you can find that survey 672 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,000 we alluded to. Ed Choice is twenty twenty five Schooling 673 00:41:11,079 --> 00:41:16,039 in America. Survey really comes along at the right time 674 00:41:16,079 --> 00:41:19,920 when we're taking a look at the national nationwide report 675 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,559 card and where things stand today and what it suggests 676 00:41:23,639 --> 00:41:27,840 moving forward. Thanks to My guest today Robert Enlo, President 677 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,639 and CEO of ED Choice. You've been listening to another 678 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,840 edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm at Kittle's senior 679 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:37,840 elections correspondent at the Federalist. We'll be back soon with more. 680 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:48,719 Until then, stay lovers of freedom and anxious for the fray.