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Speaker 5: Maybe you are now listening to True Murder, The most
Speaker 5: shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that
Speaker 5: have written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker DTK.
Speaker 5: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 5: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 5: your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. Good Day.
Speaker 7: In September nineteen seventy two boys met in the playground
Speaker 7: on their first day at secondary school in North London.
Speaker 7: They formed what would be described at the Old Bailey
Speaker 7: thirty years later as a unique and wicked bond. Between
Speaker 7: nineteen eighty two and nineteen eighty six, striking near lonely
Speaker 7: railway stations in London and the Home Counties, their partnership
Speaker 7: took them from rape to murder. Three police forces pooled
Speaker 7: their resources to catch them in the biggest criminal man
Speaker 7: hunt since the Yorkshire Ripper Inquiry. A Dangerous Place is
Speaker 7: the first full length account of the crimes of John
Speaker 7: Duffy and David Mockay, told by the son of one
Speaker 7: of the police officers who led the inquiry. Exhaustively researched
Speaker 7: and with unprecedented access. This is the story of two
Speaker 7: of the most notorious serial killers of the twentieth century
Speaker 7: and the times they operated in. It is the story
Speaker 7: of the women who died at their hands. It is
Speaker 7: the story of the women who survived them and who
Speaker 7: had the courage to insure justice was done. And it
Speaker 7: is the story of a father told by a son.
Speaker 7: The book they were featuring today is A Dangerous Place,
Speaker 7: The Story of the Railway Murders, with my special guest,
Speaker 7: journalist and author, Simon Farker. Welcome to the program, and
Speaker 7: thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. Simon
Speaker 7: Farker at all.
Speaker 6: Thank you, it's a pleasure.
Speaker 7: Thank you very much, all the way from London. Let's
Speaker 7: talk about how you came to be involved. We alluded
Speaker 7: to it that this is the story of your father,
Speaker 7: was one of the officers involved in this incredible case.
Speaker 7: Tell us how you came to be involved and wanted
Speaker 7: to be involved in writing this story A Dangerous Place.
Speaker 6: Well, my father died in twenty thirteen, and naturally when
Speaker 6: you lose a parent, you want to do something in
Speaker 6: some sort of tribute, some sort of gesture. Strange enough,
Speaker 6: it never actually occurred to me to do a book
Speaker 6: about about this case or anything. What happened was that
Speaker 6: a time later, I was writing a piece for a newspaper.
Speaker 6: There was a television show in Britain in the seventies
Speaker 6: and eighties called Police five, and it was a weekly
Speaker 6: show where they appealed for help on unsolved crimes. And
Speaker 6: while this case was going on, my dad appeared on
Speaker 6: that program and when the host of it was a
Speaker 6: guy called Shaw Taylor, who was very well known in Britain.
Speaker 6: He died not long after my dad and I was
Speaker 6: writing a piece about in for the newspapers, and as
Speaker 6: a result of that, I happened to be in discussion
Speaker 6: with a publisher and were telling him about my dad's
Speaker 6: connection with that program, that he'd gone on there to
Speaker 6: appeal for information about the railway murders and so on,
Speaker 6: and I was talking about my dad's part in what
Speaker 6: was an enormously important case, and he just said, this
Speaker 6: is fascinating. Why don't you do a book about it.
Speaker 6: It's kind of obvious, really, but it had just never
Speaker 6: occurred to me, and initially I was a bit unsure
Speaker 6: because it wasn't a genre I'd ever explored before. But
Speaker 6: then I thought of about it a bit more, and
Speaker 6: I thought, well, it's strange that the book hasn't been
Speaker 6: done on this case yet, so if I don't do it,
Speaker 6: someone else probably will. A lot of documentary has been
Speaker 6: done on it, but never a book. And I also thought,
Speaker 6: not only would it be an interesting opportunity to pay
Speaker 6: tribute to my dad, it would be an interesting way
Speaker 6: of understanding who he was as a working man. It
Speaker 6: would mean talking to his colleagues, going through the visiting
Speaker 6: the places he had to go to putting the story
Speaker 6: together from his point of view. So it just became
Speaker 6: kind of irresistible after that, actually, And then the first
Speaker 6: sort of tentative steps I took were to try and
Speaker 6: contact his colleagues in the case. And immediately they came
Speaker 6: back with so many stories, and I realized that a
Speaker 6: lot of the coverage of the case in the past
Speaker 6: had been quite superficial, or have been quite a lot
Speaker 6: of inaccuracy, isn't it. So after that, what actually happened,
Speaker 6: and I suppose what often happens with the stories like
Speaker 6: this verygardment is they begin to take you over a
Speaker 6: little bit they become you know, they haunt you for
Speaker 6: the day and night. So it became quite a compulsive
Speaker 6: experience writing it. So yeah, that's how it came about.
Speaker 7: Yah, fascinating. Let's talk about the principles in this because
Speaker 7: we have so much to cover in this incredible story.
Speaker 7: There are so many twist terms in this it's amazing.
Speaker 7: Let's talk about John Francis Duffy, which was born in
Speaker 7: nineteen fifty eight. You say he's the eldest of three children.
Speaker 7: Tell us about his upbringing in this family, which.
Speaker 6: John Duffee was. That's right. John Duffy was the son
Speaker 6: of an Irish couple. He was born in Ireland and
Speaker 6: the family moved over here in his childhood. They were
Speaker 6: a very decent, hard working Irish family. His father was
Speaker 6: a builder. They quite religious, not massively so, but they
Speaker 6: was the dutiful Catholics. And as a young child, we
Speaker 6: know very little about him that suggested there was anything
Speaker 6: sort of wrong there. As he began to grow up,
Speaker 6: there were certain things about him right. He was very
Speaker 6: very short. He was long, well below the average high.
Speaker 6: Even as an adult he never got to all of
Speaker 6: him five foot four, which you drew attention to him
Speaker 6: and he probably got teased a bit because of that.
Speaker 6: He had a very very bright ginger hair as well,
Speaker 6: which got in a lot of attention at school and
Speaker 6: a lot of bullying and things like that. But he came,
Speaker 6: as I say, he came over with his parents to
Speaker 6: live in North London, and he wasn't gifted academically, and
Speaker 6: he wasn't really He was a child that wasn't really
Speaker 6: interested in anything. Nothing could engage him. He wasn't interested
Speaker 6: in anything at school, sport or academical or anything like that.
Speaker 6: But when he was eleven he went to Haverstock School
Speaker 6: in North London, which is today quite a respected school,
Speaker 6: but at that time was a school with a lot
Speaker 6: of problems, had a very bad record for discipline, bullying
Speaker 6: and that sort of thing. And he arrived at Avistock
Speaker 6: and was bullied very very mercilessly. And one of the
Speaker 6: things that he used to do was he would put
Speaker 6: on a heavy overcoat with a hood and he'd wear
Speaker 6: it the whole time, even on hot summer days, as
Speaker 6: a way of sort of hiding from the world, you know.
Speaker 6: But on his first day at that school, in the playground,
Speaker 6: on the first day, he met another boy, David Mulcahey,
Speaker 6: and from then on his fate was sealed together that
Speaker 6: partnership began. So that was it. He Duffy was raised
Speaker 6: as a Catholic, and what obviously becomes, without wanting to
Speaker 6: jump ahead too much, what does become important later on
Speaker 6: in the story is that Duffy's decent upbringing and religious
Speaker 6: upbringing and so on never quite vanished despite the dreadful
Speaker 6: crimes that he was led into. Much much late to
Speaker 6: something that came back as we were seeing.
Speaker 7: You talk about Duffy meeting David John Marquay, and you
Speaker 7: talk about him being the son of a garage mechanic
Speaker 7: turned pub landlord, and he was born that's just a
Speaker 7: year after Duffy in nineteen fifty nine. Tell us what
Speaker 7: their early relationship was characterized by. What did David mackay
Speaker 7: become in essence as a friend of Duffy.
Speaker 6: Well, I think what first of all, what happened was
Speaker 6: that Malkay he was also bullied at school and isolated.
Speaker 6: So therefore these two boys were sort of thrown together.
Speaker 6: They had something in common in the fact that they
Speaker 6: were both from Irish families, which was a bit of
Speaker 6: a coincidence. But David grew very quickly, grew into a
Speaker 6: much bigger lad than Duffy and a bit more confident
Speaker 6: and arrogance, and I think after a while he could
Speaker 6: have enjoyed the role of being Duffy's kind of protector
Speaker 6: and he sort of leader. Very quickly they both completely
Speaker 6: disengaged from their school life, so they began to just
Speaker 6: not go to school and they spent a lot of
Speaker 6: time just wandering around North London. Very near to their
Speaker 6: school was Hampstead Heath, which is a massive grade area
Speaker 6: of heathland in London, which is full of lonely places
Speaker 6: which they enjoyed skulking around in. And they started experimenting
Speaker 6: with petty crime. I mean, if children aren't going to school,
Speaker 6: they need to do something to occupy those days when
Speaker 6: they can't, you know, hang around at home or anything.
Speaker 6: So they started a little bit of petty crime. They
Speaker 6: would do little bits of vandalism, they'd start fires, they
Speaker 6: would look at a damage, a little bits of theft,
Speaker 6: and that's the thing. But what was really crucial at
Speaker 6: this time as well is that in Britain at this
Speaker 6: time there was a real fascination amongst a lot of
Speaker 6: youngsters with martial arts. This was the age of the
Speaker 6: Kung Fu Crace and Bruce Lee and so on and
Speaker 6: so forth. And these two boys got completely fascinated by this,
Speaker 6: probably as a way of trying to feel more confident
Speaker 6: with the world around them and take some revenge on
Speaker 6: the fact that they'd been victims of bullying and so on.
Speaker 6: And they started to train, and they started to really
Speaker 6: immerse themselves in a kind of martial arts philosophy, but
Speaker 6: a very skewed version of it, and they would endlessly
Speaker 6: practice moves. They would pretend that they were soldiers or
Speaker 6: whatever and sort of you know, have these imaginary games.
Speaker 6: But it began to take on a more sinister ridge.
Speaker 6: They became completely detached from the world around them and
Speaker 6: operated in their own little bubble. They hardly interacted with
Speaker 6: anybody else, and they were heading down a path. Mccahe
Speaker 6: wanted to see himself as what he called an immortal warrior.
Speaker 6: You know, it was immature, It was tom foolery, but
Speaker 6: at a late age. The other thing that they would
Speaker 6: start doing as they became adolescent, that they became sexually aware,
Speaker 6: is that they would pursue girls in the playground or whatever,
Speaker 6: and then when they grabbed them, they would touch them
Speaker 6: inappropriately and that sort of thing, all things that these
Speaker 6: days you would hope a school would notice and would,
Speaker 6: you know, would would look into. But in those days,
Speaker 6: you know, it's things were far less police than they were.
Speaker 6: So by the time they're in their mid teens, you
Speaker 6: have already a history of petty crime, a fascination with
Speaker 6: martial arts and violence, and an aggressive sexual attitude. They
Speaker 6: had no interaction with with girls. They both by the
Speaker 6: time they left school, they had no qualifications at all
Speaker 6: and really had just they had become They had become
Speaker 6: complete outsiders. But their relationship was something that was entirely
Speaker 6: there's an expression fully had the madness of two people,
Speaker 6: and that's what this really sort of became. They knew
Speaker 6: each other inside out. They had their own little world.
Speaker 6: It was no one else was really privy to at all,
Speaker 6: and unfortunately they were now on a path towards towards
Speaker 6: becoming becoming killers.
Speaker 7: You talked about their foray and two petty crime and
Speaker 7: the escalation of that and their interest in martial arts
Speaker 7: and then violence in general, and then they would begin
Speaker 7: to stark women. You also talk about on Spring break
Speaker 7: nineteen seventy seven, more A met sand Racarr, who was
Speaker 7: sixteen years old. In the following June, the couple were
Speaker 7: married and duffe found and you say Duffy had found
Speaker 7: work as a carpenter for British Reel, which again this
Speaker 7: will be very important.
Speaker 6: That's what.
Speaker 7: Go ahead.
Speaker 6: They both by the time they left school, they both,
Speaker 6: as said, had no qualifications, and they also had no
Speaker 6: experience of the opposite sex. It's all apart from an
Speaker 6: aggressive way. Malkai began working behind the bar at his
Speaker 6: parents pub and tried various things. He showed some aptitude
Speaker 6: as a decorator and as a plaster, but he never
Speaker 6: really was able to stick at anything. This is actually
Speaker 6: quite a common trait I think with weird serial killers
Speaker 6: and things, is an inability to settle into any kind
Speaker 6: of occupation or commit to anything like that. Duffy showed
Speaker 6: some flair as a carpenter and he got an apprenticeship,
Speaker 6: but he wasn't kept on after he completed it because
Speaker 6: he was so regularly absent. However, he then did manage
Speaker 6: to find work working with working for British Rail as
Speaker 6: a carpenter, and this allowed him free travel on all
Speaker 6: the rail networks in the Home counties and in London,
Speaker 6: so he built up a very very good knowledge of
Speaker 6: the railway very quickly, and I would imagine that David
Speaker 6: would have probably traveled with him quite a lot in
Speaker 6: the evenings when they were probably hanging around, or in
Speaker 6: the daytimes. I would imagine that they probably both traveled
Speaker 6: on Duffy's free passes, wandering around and gradually noticing that
Speaker 6: the railways are a very good place to use if
Speaker 6: you want to attack people, because there's so many lonely spots,
Speaker 6: you know, especially in those days before there were CCTV
Speaker 6: and that sort of thing, it's an absolutely perfect opportunity
Speaker 6: for people to operate like that.
Speaker 7: You talk about Duffy also meeting a woman, Margaret Byrne,
Speaker 7: and they married in secret due to their parents' disapproval.
Speaker 7: And do you talk about right?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 6: Sorry, I yes, sorry, I forgot to mention about the marriages. Yeah,
Speaker 6: they they both married the first women that they formed
Speaker 6: any kind of relationship with. Malkay he married a lady
Speaker 6: he'd met at a dance in nineteen seventy seven, and
Speaker 6: Duffy a year later met a nursery teacher called Margaret,
Speaker 6: and both those marriages did appear to settle the two
Speaker 6: men for a short time. So we're talking by nineteen
Speaker 6: seventy eight, they're both they're both about twenty, and they're
Speaker 6: both married, and for a short time they both appeared
Speaker 6: to settle, have jobs and so on. McCaughey and his
Speaker 6: wife had children, Duffy and his wife couldn't have children,
Speaker 6: and by the early nineteen eighties both marriages appeared to
Speaker 6: have been there's possibly a bit of crisis both of them.
Speaker 6: I think David was possibly possibly bored, restless and so on. Duffy,
Speaker 6: on the other hand, it appeared that he wasn't going
Speaker 6: to be able to have children, and this became a
Speaker 6: serious challenge to his sense of masculinity.
Speaker 7: Around this time, you talk of plan that these two hatch.
Speaker 7: What is that plan? What are they What did they
Speaker 7: try to do.
Speaker 6: Well? It dates back to something which had happened earlier.
Speaker 6: The summer they left school, the summer of nineteen seventy five.
Speaker 6: The first job that Malkahi got was doing some decorating
Speaker 6: for a woman in a house in North London. Something
Speaker 6: happened and he had an altercation with this woman. I
Speaker 6: think she didn't pay because I think he hadn't done
Speaker 6: the work adequately and he just went crazy about this,
Speaker 6: and he said to Duffy she needed teaching a lesson.
Speaker 6: So they broke into the house while she was out.
Speaker 6: They broke in for a skylights and they waited there
Speaker 6: with the plan to rape her when she returned, but
Speaker 6: she just didn't come back, and they waited and waited,
Speaker 6: and then decided they couldn't wait any longer and they left.
Speaker 6: But an idea, I mean, we will never know what
Speaker 6: would have happened if that woman had come back at
Speaker 6: this point. But the following year it happened again. There
Speaker 6: was a lady in Kensington who Mokahi decided was stuck
Speaker 6: up to use his term, so they broke in again
Speaker 6: with a plan to rape this woman and she did return,
Speaker 6: but she returned with a boyfriend and the two of
Speaker 6: them ran very quickly out of the house to avoid
Speaker 6: getting caught. And they found the whole experience exhilarating. They
Speaker 6: found that the lying in wait and the preparation was
Speaker 6: a level of excitement they'd never experienced before. So if
Speaker 6: we moved forward six years and we don't know of
Speaker 6: anything that happened, in those six years after that, apart
Speaker 6: from some petty crime, some burglary and so on. But
Speaker 6: in nineteen eighty two, Duffy's marriage was in real crisis
Speaker 6: and his wife was going away for the weekend on
Speaker 6: a course, and he and David hatched a plan to
Speaker 6: kidnap a woman and torture her over the weekend. They
Speaker 6: were going to abduct her, drive around London blindfolded, take
Speaker 6: her back to Duffy's flat. He'd even got a mattress
Speaker 6: prepared in the living room to keep her tied up on,
Speaker 6: and they would do various things. They were planning to
Speaker 6: walk her across a roof blindfolded to the edge, and
Speaker 6: all that kind of stuff. And again it didn't happen.
Speaker 6: They just when it came to the crunch, they just
Speaker 6: felt they didn't quite have the They didn't dare do it.
Speaker 6: But again the seed of an idea had formed and
Speaker 6: they were you know, it was another step towards committing
Speaker 6: an actual crime of this nature. So on the next
Speaker 6: occasion that Duffy's wife went away, they decided to try again,
Speaker 6: and this time they broke into the back garden of
Speaker 6: a house in Abbey Road in North London Abbey Road,
Speaker 6: famous for the Beatles album, and a lady who lived
Speaker 6: in a flat on Abbey Road was just going to bed.
Speaker 6: She turned the light out in the living room and
Speaker 6: she saw a man standing on the balcony who was Duffy.
Speaker 6: She rushed to open the door and scream across the
Speaker 6: garden and she heard a second man saying quick, let's go.
Speaker 6: And this was them, and this was the last time
Speaker 6: they were thwarted. They were angry because they were so
Speaker 6: close this time and they'd been thwarted. So then they
Speaker 6: decided that the third time they weren't going to miss
Speaker 6: the opportunity. So in June nineteen eighty two, one Saturday night,
Speaker 6: they went out in the Mulcahy's car, drove around for hours,
Speaker 6: and then finally saw a young girl walking along Hampstead
Speaker 6: Heath very late, and they accosted her and both raped her,
Speaker 6: and then drove back the Duffy's flat in a high
Speaker 6: stage of excitement, going over what they've just done. This
Speaker 6: is one of the things that they love. They love
Speaker 6: talking about their crimes afterwards and comparing notes and deciding
Speaker 6: who will we get next, what sort of victim will
Speaker 6: we choose. It was an unbelievably the complete disregard for
Speaker 6: for you know, for human feelings, and it was quite remarkable.
Speaker 6: But from then on it became a compulsion, and it
Speaker 6: just became more and more frequent over the next four years.
Speaker 7: With these attacks. There are descriptions of these perpetrators and
Speaker 7: as well coverage in the newspapers. What did that do
Speaker 7: for their confidence or were they hesitant? What did that
Speaker 7: do to their emo?
Speaker 6: Interestingly enough, interesting enough, they actually they actually rather fed
Speaker 6: off that publicity. They saw it as a bit of
Speaker 6: a game. I mean they Suffy said later, we saw
Speaker 6: it as a game with the police. We never thought
Speaker 6: we'd get caught. They kind of enjoyed that sort of
Speaker 6: cat and mouse thing. One of the things that these
Speaker 6: two men took extreme. They went to extreme lengths to
Speaker 6: try and avoid being caught. They would wear masks or
Speaker 6: balaclavas or hoods. They would talk in accents which were
Speaker 6: different to where they were actually from to try and
Speaker 6: confuse the witnesses. They would drive around normally in a car,
Speaker 6: but then they would park it someway from where the
Speaker 6: attacks would take place. Malkahi would put tape inside his
Speaker 6: jacket and then he would use that to put over
Speaker 6: Victor's eyes and mouth and that sort of thing. It
Speaker 6: was planned with a militaristic precision, and they would carry
Speaker 6: either knives or replica firearms with them or whatever. But
Speaker 6: although initially the publicity sort of excited them and they
Speaker 6: enjoyed out witting the police and so on, they did
Speaker 6: come a point when the attacks became so prolific that
Speaker 6: the police started to put them all together. I mean
Speaker 6: at first they didn't know. You know, the police didn't know.
Speaker 6: You have a random set of attacks taking place over
Speaker 6: a period of time in London with descriptions which are vague.
Speaker 6: You don't know for sure that they are connected. Once
Speaker 6: they were connected, then posters started going up searching for
Speaker 6: the North London rapists, as they were known. And on
Speaker 6: one occasion they were driving through London one afternoon and
Speaker 6: they saw one of these posters outside the local police station.
Speaker 6: So Malcahi got out of the car and looked at
Speaker 6: the poster, which had some artists impressions of the two
Speaker 6: men on it, and got back in the car and
Speaker 6: said to Duffy, don't worry, it doesn't look anything like
Speaker 6: us at all. But they realized that they were now
Speaker 6: attacking so much in the same area that they had
Speaker 6: to start moving further afield, which they did, and they
Speaker 6: then started moving further away from the area of North
Speaker 6: London they'd normally operated in. And around this time I
Speaker 6: think it becomes obvious that Murkahei had decided that it
Speaker 6: would be better if they didn't start leaving witnesses alive
Speaker 6: or victims alive after they finished with them, and gradually
Speaker 6: murder became more and more inevitable.
Speaker 7: You talk about this escalation, but you also talk about
Speaker 7: this becomes important later. But John Duffy's marriage, what was
Speaker 7: it characterized by in that four year period? What did
Speaker 7: his wife notice or experience in that four year period.
Speaker 6: Yes, indeed, she described it later as a four year
Speaker 6: journey from him going from a reasonable man to a madman.
Speaker 6: He became more and more violent towards his wife during
Speaker 6: that time. He Initially the violence was within a sexual context.
Speaker 6: He became more and more aggressive during sex. The violence
Speaker 6: then began to spread out into domestic violence of all kinds,
Speaker 6: and he would start to replicate some of the things
Speaker 6: that he was doing with David tools the victims. For example,
Speaker 6: he would talk her up. She couldn't believe how quickly
Speaker 6: and how deptly he could do this, because he'd had
Speaker 6: so much practice at it by now. He would gag
Speaker 6: her all those kind of things. It was all another
Speaker 6: way of kind of reliving those experiences. And the violence
Speaker 6: became known to people living in the same block of
Speaker 6: flats as them, you know, they could hear the noise,
Speaker 6: they would see the effects of it, and so on,
Speaker 6: until eventually his wife did leave him, and when she
Speaker 6: left him, he just went absolutely berserk. And he then
Speaker 6: over a period of time, she met someone else who
Speaker 6: Duffy found out about this, and then tracked them both
Speaker 6: down and attacked them both. He was then given He
Speaker 6: was then reported to the police, and he was put
Speaker 6: on a restraining order where he wasn't allowed to go
Speaker 6: near his wife at all. He sexually assaulted her at
Speaker 6: this point as well, and the trial for that was
Speaker 6: delayed and delayed, and it was during that time that
Speaker 6: the murders took place. I think he probably knew by
Speaker 6: then he was probably on board time because the police
Speaker 6: now had his name on file, you know, if he
Speaker 6: hadn't committed those offenses against his wife. I dread to
Speaker 6: think how long this how much longer this could have
Speaker 6: gone on for actually, but he was becoming so out
Speaker 6: of control now. And the other thing that's important at
Speaker 6: this time is Duffy also started attacking alone as well.
Speaker 6: We don't know that David mccache ever did that, but
Speaker 6: Duffy did start attacking alone. And when he attacked on
Speaker 6: his own, he was careless. He didn't go into it
Speaker 6: with the same kind of level of detail and preparation
Speaker 6: that they did together. So he would leave much more clues,
Speaker 6: much more forensic evidence, and so on and so forth.
Speaker 6: So gradually a more and more clear picture was building
Speaker 6: up for the police.
Speaker 7: You talk about John Duffy is also at this point
Speaker 7: at some point missing work and staying home. What does
Speaker 7: he miss work to do at home and tell us
Speaker 7: some of his interests and what happens finally with his
Speaker 7: job at British Rael.
Speaker 6: Yeah, but by this point he was kind of immersed,
Speaker 6: retreating more and more into his own sort of fantasy world.
Speaker 6: He spent a lot of time watching violent films. He
Speaker 6: was obsessed, as I say, with martial arts. Interesting that
Speaker 6: was something that David McCaughey had lost interest in by now,
Speaker 6: but Duffy was still obsessed with that. McCaughey was much
Speaker 6: more sort of fickled with the kind of interest. So
Speaker 6: he would stay at home all day just watching violent movies,
Speaker 6: particularly ones that had you know, kind of violent towards
Speaker 6: women in them, also watching violent pornography and that sort
Speaker 6: of thing. And he was building up quite a collection
Speaker 6: of weaponry by this time as well, from various underground
Speaker 6: shops around London. He was buying sort of knives and
Speaker 6: costures and all that sort of thing, arts, magazines and
Speaker 6: various literature. There was a particular book that he and
Speaker 6: David read at this time called The Anarchist Cookbook, which
Speaker 6: was which had been banned on and off over the
Speaker 6: years in the early seventies book, and that had all
Speaker 6: kinds of things in there, and techniques on how to
Speaker 6: garrop people and how to overpower people and all that
Speaker 6: sort of stuff. All of this was just feeding, you know,
Speaker 6: this kind of this sort of compulsion that he'd discovered. Eventually,
Speaker 6: his absences got to the point that he lost his
Speaker 6: job at British rail and that gave him even more
Speaker 6: time to just wander around the railway network and nineteen
Speaker 6: eighty four, sorry, nineteen eighty five, rather was his most
Speaker 6: prolific year in terms of attacking on his own. One
Speaker 6: thing I don't know, actually, I've never managed to find
Speaker 6: the answer to this. I don't know if David Bolka
Speaker 6: he knew about him operating on his own. It's an
Speaker 6: interesting thing because it was Duffy acting on his own
Speaker 6: which brought the police closer to them, and so he
Speaker 6: would have probably been pretty angry about that. But I
Speaker 6: don't know if he ever did know. Actually, I think
Speaker 6: he probably didn't. Duffy by this point obviously was not
Speaker 6: able to control this. Unlike mulcahey, he was always very
Speaker 6: very careful for deliberating and this sort of thing.
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Speaker 7: Obviously the police are looking for these rapists. What is
Speaker 7: the characteristic of the actual attacks and what do police
Speaker 7: find in terms of any kind of forensic evidence at
Speaker 7: any of these rapes? What are they going on and
Speaker 7: what do they know and what do they think?
Speaker 6: Sure, well, you have to remember at this time, of course,
Speaker 6: that there's two huge problems for the police investigating attacks
Speaker 6: like this. One is the fact that it's very difficult
Speaker 6: to get victims to come forward. A lot of women
Speaker 6: are attacked like this, don't want to report it. Particularly
Speaker 6: in those days there there weren't there weren't the things
Speaker 6: put in place there are now. It was all rather
Speaker 6: primitive in the way that rape victims were dealt with
Speaker 6: by the police. The other thing, of course, is at
Speaker 6: that time forensic science was much less sophisticated than it
Speaker 6: is now. This was before DNA, so all that the
Speaker 6: police really had on that regard was blood grouping, and
Speaker 6: you know, that's that's pretty vague science. So what they
Speaker 6: had the characteristics of the attacks were. They were stranger attacks.
Speaker 6: They were normally committed around railway stations, most of them
Speaker 6: committed around North London. It was always two men, a
Speaker 6: taller man and a shorter man. They didn't know much
Speaker 6: about the taller man, but the shorter one was about
Speaker 6: was very short and he had an a secrete the
Speaker 6: blood group The shorter man would often engage the girls
Speaker 6: in conversation. Sometimes what he said to them was deliber
Speaker 6: for disinformation to throw them off the scent. He would
Speaker 6: say that he'd just come out of prison or something,
Speaker 6: which no that was true. The shorter man would often
Speaker 6: apologize after the attack. The men would normally steal something
Speaker 6: from the victims, often a house key. One of the
Speaker 6: things that was very significant is that they would ask
Speaker 6: the victims their names and addresses and say, if you
Speaker 6: report this, we will come and find you. Sometimes they
Speaker 6: would steal things which have the address on. For instance,
Speaker 6: they would do a library card or something like that.
Speaker 6: So obviously these women were absolutely terrified by this, so
Speaker 6: they were the main things, but the taller man. What
Speaker 6: they knew about the taller man was that sometimes he
Speaker 6: had difficulty in carrying out the attacks. Sometimes he suffered
Speaker 6: from impotence. He also had a sort of slightly darker complexion.
Speaker 6: He was about five to eleven and was much more
Speaker 6: violent than the shorter man. And as the police began
Speaker 6: to put the attacks together, they noticed that the violence
Speaker 6: was visibly increasing, and what appeared to be the case
Speaker 6: was that the taller man was using the violence as
Speaker 6: a reaction to his impotence, and it would often cure it.
Speaker 6: There was one particular attack on a twenty four year
Speaker 6: old beau pair and the taller man couldn't get an
Speaker 6: erection and he ordered the shorter man to mutilate her horrifically,
Speaker 6: and actually that threat suddenly changed everything and he then
Speaker 6: proceeded to Raper and so I think mccachey by that point,
Speaker 6: you know, realized that violence was violence was the real
Speaker 6: appeal to him in this and domination. It's an interesting
Speaker 6: thing as well that many years later, when Duffy confessed
Speaker 6: to these crimes, he actually talks about this quite a
Speaker 6: lot and says that although initially it was the waiting
Speaker 6: and the planning that was the appeal of this for David,
Speaker 6: it became more and more about domination. And Duffy actually
Speaker 6: said his eyes were a blade when he was doing this.
Speaker 6: He was a totally different person. And I've actually listened
Speaker 6: about interview tape with John Duffy saying that, and even
Speaker 6: at a distance of all those years, you can still
Speaker 6: hear a slight sense of surprise in his voice at
Speaker 6: just how possessed at these times Molkai became. So they
Speaker 6: were all the kind of characteristics that the police had
Speaker 6: or they had to go on in terms of they
Speaker 6: had some descriptions. Obviously the men wore masks and stuff,
Speaker 6: but occasionally they would you know, occasionally, you know, witnesses
Speaker 6: saw them without them and so on. What they also had,
Speaker 6: as I say, was the fact that the shorter man
Speaker 6: was an a secrete to blood group, and there's various
Speaker 6: other little things like the taller man had a mole
Speaker 6: on his chin, he had dark brown hair, you know,
Speaker 6: that kind of stuff. But it was very vague. It
Speaker 6: was very very poor information. And what obviously became most
Speaker 6: significant later on was that on one occasion these two
Speaker 6: men actually attacked two women at the same time. And
Speaker 6: this was the attack which became crucial to the whole case.
Speaker 6: And this attack took place in the July of nineteen
Speaker 6: eighty four on Hampstead Heath, and this was two Danish girls,
Speaker 6: two eighteen year old Danish show pairs. They'd missed the
Speaker 6: last bus back from central London and were walking back
Speaker 6: and were walking along a long road by Hampstead Heath,
Speaker 6: which was very busy roads even at that summer night.
Speaker 6: There's plenty of cars going up and down there. Luffy
Speaker 6: and McCaughey had been driving around that night constantly searching
Speaker 6: for a victim and hadn't had any success, and they
Speaker 6: saw these two girls and they pulled over a bit
Speaker 6: further up the road and discussed whether or not they
Speaker 6: would they would try and attack both of them. So
Speaker 6: they did so they used to pose as joggers doing this,
Speaker 6: so their tracksuits on. So they ran up behind them
Speaker 6: and bundled them down off the road onto the heath
Speaker 6: and rape them both. And that attack was crucial because
Speaker 6: it's the only time that they had what should we
Speaker 6: say say, uncorrupted evidence, forensic evidence from from both men,
Speaker 6: and that became very significant obviously many years later when
Speaker 6: DNA technology had come in. At the time, it wasn't
Speaker 6: a great deal of use at all because neither man had,
Speaker 6: you know, neither man had any history of this sort
Speaker 6: of thing at that point. There was nothing on file
Speaker 6: that connected them. But so yeah, it was very vague.
Speaker 6: The more crimes that were committed, the more information the
Speaker 6: police were getting. Another thing that was a telltale sign
Speaker 6: which allowed them to connect a lot of the cases,
Speaker 6: is that these two men also carried tissue with them,
Speaker 6: tissue paper which they kept inside matchboxes with some matches.
Speaker 6: And what they would do is they would give the
Speaker 6: tissue to the victims after the attacks, tell them to
Speaker 6: wipe the forensic evidence away, and then they would set
Speaker 6: fire to it in front of them. And that was
Speaker 6: partly obviously to try and avoid any forensic detection but
Speaker 6: it was also a kind of psychological torture of the victims,
Speaker 6: sort of saying, and we've left no trace behind, you know,
Speaker 6: that sort of thing it was. You know, I think
Speaker 6: it was as much as psychological torture as a as
Speaker 6: a piece of forensic evasion.
Speaker 7: Now you talk about acceleration escalation, you talk about January
Speaker 7: twenty six, nineteen eighty five, and twenty year old German
Speaker 7: vulpair was blindfolded at night point, and tell us about
Speaker 7: these crimes and how frequent these next attacks are after
Speaker 7: January twenty six, nineteen five.
Speaker 6: Yes, the January attack was a significant one. It was
Speaker 6: a particularly it was a particularly horrific attack on a
Speaker 6: German O pair who'd only been in England, I think
Speaker 6: about eight weeks or something like that. And there was
Speaker 6: a lot of reasons why this attack was significant. One
Speaker 6: was that as well as the violence increasing as these
Speaker 6: attacks went on, the other thing that started to increase
Speaker 6: was the sort of psychological torture of the victims, so
Speaker 6: that initially they would abduct these women and the attack
Speaker 6: with take place, and then they would run very quickly.
Speaker 6: What started to happen was they would abduct the victim
Speaker 6: and then take the victim a considerable distance before the
Speaker 6: attack took place. They enjoyed that long drawn out process
Speaker 6: of having to lead them off somewhere further and further
Speaker 6: away from civilization and reducing the victims to a state
Speaker 6: of abject terror. Now, this was an example of that.
Speaker 6: This lady was This was in an area CaAl Brent Cross,
Speaker 6: which is where there's a very big shopping center and
Speaker 6: a lot of roads intersecting, so you've got huge, great
Speaker 6: motor flyovers and things like that. It's kind of concrete jungle.
Speaker 6: So this woman was taken abducted there and she was
Speaker 6: walked a very long way down to where the river is.
Speaker 6: And the victims will often be stripped completely naked, no
Speaker 6: matter what time of year or time of night or
Speaker 6: whatever like this all part of that reducing them to
Speaker 6: a state of complete helplessness and vulnerability. And during that attack,
Speaker 6: mccahey actually get He said to her, want your name
Speaker 6: and address and all that sort of thing. It was
Speaker 6: a horrific attack and that lady was so taumti. She
Speaker 6: did initially try to fight them off. She had an
Speaker 6: umbrella weather and she tried, but it was all completely
Speaker 6: you know, to no avail, and from then on the
Speaker 6: attacks in nineteen eighty five noticeably become very pronounced in
Speaker 6: their violence and in their protracted kind of quality. There
Speaker 6: was an attack on Hampstead Heath in the summer of
Speaker 6: nineteen eighty five, and when this girl was abducted, the
Speaker 6: taller man mccahey was constantly was screaming and screaming at Duffy,
Speaker 6: stab her, stab her, stab her all the time. On
Speaker 6: another attack at this time, mccahey became so violent with
Speaker 6: the girl that Duffy actually pulled him off and said,
Speaker 6: I think someone's coming. He said, he was actually getting
Speaker 6: alarmed at how violent David was becoming, because Duffy's motivation
Speaker 6: throughout this was was entirely rape. That was that was
Speaker 6: entirely what the attacks were FORO with mccahee was becoming
Speaker 6: something a bit different by now. So through nineteen eighty
Speaker 6: five there was a real proliferation of attacks, to the
Speaker 6: point that on one occasion there was three attacks in
Speaker 6: one night, which I think showed these two men at
Speaker 6: the height of their not only if they're evil, but
Speaker 6: their arrogance as well. The three attacks within a very
Speaker 6: short space of time, I think within three hours, something
Speaker 6: like that. So at the end of the summer is
Speaker 6: when the is when the posters were going up for
Speaker 6: the North London rapists and that's the point when they
Speaker 6: made the decision to call off for a bit and
Speaker 6: then move further afield. And the next thing that happened
Speaker 6: was was was their first murder.
Speaker 7: You talk about at that time as a result of
Speaker 7: the three especially the attacks three times in one night.
Speaker 7: Interestingly enough, it was July thirteenth, nineteen eighty five live
Speaker 7: Aid concert in Britain and America. That's you say that
Speaker 7: the present had dubbed them the spiders. But an operation
Speaker 7: police operation was code named Operation Heart began also using
Speaker 7: a mecha computer, a micro computer.
Speaker 6: Computer. That's right, Yes, that's right. Yeah. Operation Heart was
Speaker 6: set up after the three attacks in one night. It
Speaker 6: was it was then became the police miydent of managed
Speaker 6: to put together something like twenty four attacks that they
Speaker 6: felt sure were committed by the same one or two
Speaker 6: men and Operation Heart was set up. It's good for
Speaker 6: Harley's Area Rape Team. Ian Harley was the officer in
Speaker 6: charge with at the time and it was set up
Speaker 6: from a huge incident room in North London where every
Speaker 6: bit of information was put through a computer, a very
Speaker 6: primitive computer at the time, and a series of appeals
Speaker 6: took place. The police appealed for any other women who
Speaker 6: may have been attacking these circumstances to come forward, and
Speaker 6: huge numbers of women came forward, not all of them attacked,
Speaker 6: probably by the same two men. But obviously, if you've
Speaker 6: been attacked by a stranger and you fear that he
Speaker 6: stood out there somewhere, you would want that, you know,
Speaker 6: you would want to hope that that you know that
Speaker 6: that something's being done to find him. So, as I say,
Speaker 6: although computers became very important in this case, it was
Speaker 6: very early, very early stages of that, and the computers
Speaker 6: weren't talking to each other. What they were really useful
Speaker 6: for was collating information and making it easy to access information.
Speaker 6: At one point in the book, I drew a comparison
Speaker 6: quite a lot with the Yorksire Ripper Inquiry, which had
Speaker 6: taken place five years earlier, which was a disastrous inquiry
Speaker 6: in terms of the fact that everything was still done
Speaker 6: manually on paper. So at the end of that inquiry
Speaker 6: the police had something like two million statements from witnesses.
Speaker 6: So if someone came forward and said I think I
Speaker 6: saw the attacker and that he had blonde hair and
Speaker 6: a mustache. They had no way of cross referencing all that.
Speaker 6: They had to go through everything manually, whereas with a
Speaker 6: computer's ins and out they could just put those details
Speaker 6: in and it would throw up every single statement which
Speaker 6: mentioned one of those things. I mean, this is child's plain. Now,
Speaker 6: this is the basic function on a word document. But
Speaker 6: in those days it was revolutionary, you know, and you know,
Speaker 6: enormously important when you've got an inquiry which is so
Speaker 6: far reaching at the time. But Operation Heart was running
Speaker 6: from the summer onwards and it ran for just under
Speaker 6: a year and was no closer to finding these two men.
Speaker 6: But there was one very important thing that Operation Heart did,
Speaker 6: which was because the one they knew was that the
Speaker 6: shorter man had an a secrete to Blood group, Operation
Speaker 6: Heart ran a check on every single man in London
Speaker 6: who had an a secrete to Blood group who had
Speaker 6: a conviction for a sexual offense, and they came out
Speaker 6: just under two thousand names, and it was simply a
Speaker 6: case of working through them one by one. John Duffy
Speaker 6: was number one thousand, five hundred and ninety five on
Speaker 6: that list. So you know, everyone has to be worked through.
Speaker 6: So they began working through it, and they got to
Speaker 6: Duffy the following summer. But what's also important to know
Speaker 6: is that Operation Heart, within about ten months, was actually
Speaker 6: due to be closed down because resources were very tight
Speaker 6: and it didn't appear to be making any progress. In fact,
Speaker 6: it was making very good progress, but it hadn't led
Speaker 6: to an arrest, and it was very very close to
Speaker 6: being shut down when thankfully a breakthrough was made.
Speaker 7: Tell us about the breakthrough that continued this manhunt. To
Speaker 7: continue this investigation and the rule your father has in
Speaker 7: this situation, in this investigation at that time.
Speaker 6: Well, to do this, we should first just mention we
Speaker 6: should talk about the first murder that was obviously about
Speaker 6: to happen. So we go to Christmas nineteen eighty five,
Speaker 6: and there's been nothing heard from Duffy and McCaughey for
Speaker 6: a few months at this point, and Duffy spent Christmas
Speaker 6: with his parents, McCarthy spent it with his children, his
Speaker 6: wife was away visiting relatives in India, and on the
Speaker 6: twenty ninth of December, in the early evening, McCarthy phoned
Speaker 6: up Duffy and said, let's go hunting. This was their
Speaker 6: regular term that they used for going out looking for
Speaker 6: a victim. They called it hunting. What they would do
Speaker 6: is they would drive around in David's car and they
Speaker 6: would play music to cite themselves up. Their favorite track
Speaker 6: to play was was Thriller by Michael Jackson and they
Speaker 6: would sing along as they were, you know, scaring the
Speaker 6: streets looking for a victim. Anyway, Duffy had arranged to
Speaker 6: go out with his parents, but he made an excuse,
Speaker 6: got changed into darker clothes and McCarthy picked him up
Speaker 6: and they took McCarthy's children to their grandparents, dropped them
Speaker 6: off there, and then started to drive around looking for
Speaker 6: a victim. As far as Duffy knew at this point,
Speaker 6: they were looking for another rape victim, and that was
Speaker 6: all he knew. They drove round and this was the
Speaker 6: Sunday after Christmas. It was a very very cold night,
Speaker 6: and also it was it had been a long Christmas
Speaker 6: holiday that year by the way, that the Christmas Day
Speaker 6: fell so therefore most businesses didn't go back to work
Speaker 6: until the following Monday. So that Sunday night in London
Speaker 6: was a quiet one. There was lots of lots of
Speaker 6: lonely places around. They followed along the North London Lane
Speaker 6: till they came to hackney Wick, which was at that
Speaker 6: time a very rundown area which was mainly warehouses, factories
Speaker 6: and so on, a lot of which were empty by
Speaker 6: this time. They parked up and they waited at hackney
Speaker 6: Wick station. It was an area that they had already
Speaker 6: wrecked and knew was a good place for an attack.
Speaker 6: They waited, and unfortunately, nineteen year old Allison Day stepped
Speaker 6: off the train to go and meet her boyfriend who
Speaker 6: was working at a printer's around the corner. She was
Speaker 6: going to keep him company because he was working overtime,
Speaker 6: and they grabbed Allison and she came off the train
Speaker 6: and took her to a concealed area. One of the
Speaker 6: things particularly terrible with this is that, apart from all
Speaker 6: the other indignities that Alison suffered by them, it was
Speaker 6: their most up to this point, their most extreme kind
Speaker 6: of torture psychological torture. To get her from the railway
Speaker 6: station down to under the railway bridge would have been
Speaker 6: a simple enough case of walking her out of the
Speaker 6: station and entrance, but instead of which they walked her
Speaker 6: across the live railway tracks and down the embankment and
Speaker 6: under the bridge. There she was raped by both men
Speaker 6: and then in Duffy's mind, the idea was to take
Speaker 6: her back across the bridge and leave her on the
Speaker 6: other side of the river and then make their escape,
Speaker 6: but Malcahey decided instead to make her walk along the
Speaker 6: ledge on the outside of the bridge at knife Point,
Speaker 6: which on a freezing cold night it was impossible. So
Speaker 6: she fell into the water and as she fell in
Speaker 6: she screamed out that she couldn't swim. Duffy managed to
Speaker 6: pull her out, and as soon as he did, she
Speaker 6: ran for her life with absolutely no idea where she
Speaker 6: was going. She didn't know the area at all, and
Speaker 6: this absolutely enraged Mlcahey the fact that the victim had
Speaker 6: defied him. This was something that happened quite a bit
Speaker 6: in the attacks as well. If a victim tried to
Speaker 6: escape or defy him, that would normally set him off
Speaker 6: into a complete frenzy of violence. So he yelled out
Speaker 6: to Duffy to get her, and he used Duffy's first name,
Speaker 6: and I think he probably did that deliberately to give
Speaker 6: him an excuse to turn to murder. They captain Allison
Speaker 6: mccahey raped her again, and then they led her across
Speaker 6: playing fields and tortured her and then killed her. And
Speaker 6: McCarty killed her using this extraordinary method which he'd gleaned
Speaker 6: from martial arts books, which is called a Spanish windlass.
Speaker 6: What that basically is is a piece of wood put
Speaker 6: into a knot in a rope and then twisted so
Speaker 6: that you get an enormous, big, tight grip on something.
Speaker 6: It was a martial arts method. And he then handed
Speaker 6: it to Duffy and said, we're in this together. You
Speaker 6: do it too, And then Allison was rolled into the
Speaker 6: river and they fled and Duffy went back to join
Speaker 6: his parents at a party, and he was panicking about
Speaker 6: what they'd done, and Macay said it had to be done.
Speaker 6: We would have been done for attempted murder anyway. The
Speaker 6: murder of Allison Day was an enormous news story at
Speaker 6: the time. Allison Day lived very close to where we lived.
Speaker 6: She actually had gone to school with my brother actually,
Speaker 6: and she was missing for over two weeks before she
Speaker 6: was found. And in that two week there were enormous
Speaker 6: appeals in the press and the following Sunday after the
Speaker 6: after the murder, there was roadblocks set up outside the
Speaker 6: local station. You know, did anybody have you seen this girl?
Speaker 6: And so on, and the case was being run by
Speaker 6: the local police. Had very little to go on. There
Speaker 6: were no eyewitnesses, nothing like that, and then after Allison's
Speaker 6: body was found, the only thing that the police had
Speaker 6: to go on was this very unusual murder effort. Because
Speaker 6: she'd been in the water for so long, there was
Speaker 6: no forensic evidence left at all. The inquiry was run
Speaker 6: on a very low budget because at that time police
Speaker 6: resources were drained very low. There was a very big
Speaker 6: strike action taking place by the by newspapers in London
Speaker 6: at this time and it was called the Whopping dispute,
Speaker 6: and it drained a lot of police resources. So there
Speaker 6: was very little money and the inquiry was being run
Speaker 6: on a shoe string basically. And after about three months,
Speaker 6: the officer who was running it was moved off to
Speaker 6: do something else and my dad, who was based at
Speaker 6: that station, who by this time had been in the
Speaker 6: job for nearly thirty years and had a really good
Speaker 6: record as for solving murders, was told to take the
Speaker 6: case over. And he was told to take the case
Speaker 6: over and wind it down because it wasn't getting anywhere.
Speaker 6: But what he did was, rather than just say okay,
Speaker 6: I'll do that, he spoke to all the troops on
Speaker 6: the ground, so to speak, and said, what do you
Speaker 6: think we should do? And they all said, we don't
Speaker 6: want to give up yet, we just need more resources.
Speaker 6: That's sort. So my dad went back to his superiors
Speaker 6: and said, we want to keep this going, and it
Speaker 6: was constant pressure, constant pressure. We can't afford it. We
Speaker 6: have to close it down. And eventually my dad said
Speaker 6: to his superior if you want to close this inquiry down,
Speaker 6: you can do that, but you can be the one
Speaker 6: that goes and tells that girl's parents, because I'm not
Speaker 6: going to do it. And thankfully, within a week of
Speaker 6: that he had made the breakthrough which led this to
Speaker 6: be to become the biggest criminal man Hunting's Gewish rip up.
Speaker 6: It was that close to being closed down, and I'll
Speaker 6: remain forever proud of him for the fact that he
Speaker 6: refused to give up. He had a real bulldog quality
Speaker 6: like that. So the breakthrough that he made was that
Speaker 6: he asked for. He started a second wave of publicity
Speaker 6: which generated some kind of interesting information. But the other
Speaker 6: thing that was important was that he wanted to have
Speaker 6: a check done on any crimes that had been committed
Speaker 6: near railway lines, any kind of sexual crimes that have
Speaker 6: been committed in the last year, and inevitably, the Operation
Speaker 6: heart Attacks came to his attention. The other thing that
Speaker 6: he noticed was another crime that was committed a few
Speaker 6: months after Allison's murder, which was the murder of a
Speaker 6: fifteen year old schoolgirl about thirty miles away, and for
Speaker 6: some reason this intrigued him and he just wondered if
Speaker 6: it could have been the same man or men striking again.
Speaker 6: So he phoned up Surrey Police who were looking after
Speaker 6: this inquiry and asked how the victim had been killed
Speaker 6: and they said she's been strangled, and my dad said, well,
Speaker 6: our victim was strangled as well. But there was one peculiarity,
Speaker 6: which was that this tunique method of murder had been used,
Speaker 6: this Spanish windlass, and the officer from Surrey said, well,
Speaker 6: what do you mean by that, and he said, well,
Speaker 6: it's a piece of wood put into a rope and
Speaker 6: twist it. And there was a silence on the phone
Speaker 6: because what the Surrey police had actually thought was that
Speaker 6: when they saw their body with rope around the neck,
Speaker 6: the piece of wood had fallen out of the knot
Speaker 6: and was lying next to the body. They hadn't connected it,
Speaker 6: and then they suddenly realized that's what the piece of
Speaker 6: wood was doing there, had fallen out of the knot
Speaker 6: in the rope. And they said, I think we've got
Speaker 6: the same man. I think this is the same case.
Speaker 6: So what with that connection and with a connection with
Speaker 6: this operation heart series of rapes, they suddenly realized that
Speaker 6: was it, and then they pulled their resources. So this
Speaker 6: went from being an inquiry which was being running to
Speaker 6: the ground to being an enormous one with massive amounts
Speaker 6: of resources put into it.
Speaker 7: You talked about the incident that your father linked and
Speaker 7: made that crucial link in discovery and kept this inquiry
Speaker 7: going in alive. You talk about April seventeenth, nineteen eighty six.
Speaker 6: And if I missed an answer, name, yes.
Speaker 7: A Marty Tambozer, Marty turn.
Speaker 6: Well. Marty was the second girl to die at their hands.
Speaker 6: And it's an awful tragedy. I mean, Marty was fifteen
Speaker 6: years old, She was a Dutch girl. Her parents had
Speaker 6: come over to Britain because her father worked for Shell,
Speaker 6: the oil company, and he was based here. So they
Speaker 6: lived in a very beautiful village in the Surrey countryside,
Speaker 6: very affluent part of England. And Marty was a very
Speaker 6: happy child, very shy and quiet and quite young for
Speaker 6: her age, very protected, but happy and very studious. And
Speaker 6: on the seventeenth of April nineteen eighty six, Marty had
Speaker 6: been at school for the day and she came home
Speaker 6: from school and was very excited because that weekend she
Speaker 6: was going on a school trip back to Holland and
Speaker 6: she wanted to buy some English suite to take back
Speaker 6: to her friends over there. So when she got home
Speaker 6: from school, she had something to eat, and then she
Speaker 6: said to her mum, I'm going to go and cycle
Speaker 6: down to the sweet shop. Her mum said to her,
Speaker 6: that's sign. But always remember take the main road, don't
Speaker 6: take that little path along the railway line. There is
Speaker 6: a path along the railway line in this village which
Speaker 6: the it's a local beauty spot. But Marty's parents, good parents,
Speaker 6: said don't take that on your own because it is
Speaker 6: a bit lonely. Marty, being you know, like any other
Speaker 6: child of that age, said yes, of course, I won't
Speaker 6: do that, and then did, and unfortunately she took that
Speaker 6: railway path and Duffy and morcarty were waiting for her.
Speaker 6: What had happened was that because they'd realized that by
Speaker 6: now the attacks in London were being connected, they decided
Speaker 6: to go even further afield. And McCarty has found this
Speaker 6: location in Surrey by the railway line. How he found it,
Speaker 6: we'll never know. He visited it a few days before
Speaker 6: Marty's death and lurked around on the path and jumped
Speaker 6: out on an old lady and frightened her. And this
Speaker 6: was him just sort of rehearsing, you know, how good
Speaker 6: an ambush site is this, What are the escape routes
Speaker 6: and so on. So they came back on the afternoon
Speaker 6: of the seventeenth of April and saw Marty cycling along
Speaker 6: towards the sweet shop. They watched her go and then
Speaker 6: Marcaty said what goes up must come down. In other words,
Speaker 6: she'll be coming back in a few minutes. So they
Speaker 6: tied a tripwire across the path and then they hid
Speaker 6: her on either side of it, and as Marty came back,
Speaker 6: she stopped her bike puzzled at this tripwire and that's
Speaker 6: when they grabbed her and from where that happened. And
Speaker 6: if you actually go there where Marty was aducted, it
Speaker 6: would take you about five seconds to then take someone
Speaker 6: into the trees and be hidden. But they didn't want
Speaker 6: to do that. They decided to walk her almost a
Speaker 6: mile just to protract that torture. So they walked her
Speaker 6: around the perimeter of a field, through the woods into
Speaker 6: another field, all the way around the edge of that field,
Speaker 6: and then to almost a point where beyond where I
Speaker 6: could see, and then Malcahey said this will do Duffy
Speaker 6: rake to maca. He kept a lookout, and then something
Speaker 6: curious happened. Duffy then got Marty up to lead her
Speaker 6: back and realized that mcahy had vanished. McCarty had gone
Speaker 6: back to dispose of Marty's bicycle and he'd got trapped
Speaker 6: on the way back because a woman walking a dog
Speaker 6: had seen him, So he was hiding in a field.
Speaker 6: There were quite a few people around. It was a
Speaker 6: popular dog walking area, so there were a lot of
Speaker 6: descriptions of him. Eventually Duffy saw him waving across the
Speaker 6: field and he gestured to an area of concealed woodland
Speaker 6: and they led Marty in there, and when they got
Speaker 6: in there, for some reason, mcahey just went again, just
Speaker 6: went absolutely into a frenzied state and began to attack
Speaker 6: Marty and hit her with a rock, not her unconscious
Speaker 6: and interesting at this point that doesn't appear to have
Speaker 6: been any sexual assault. I think for McCaughey by now
Speaker 6: it was all about violence and wasn't about any sexual
Speaker 6: gratification at all. So he then ordered Duffy to strangleer,
Speaker 6: saying I did the last one, you do this one.
Speaker 6: And then they split up, having stolen the money that
Speaker 6: Marty had on her, and they then walked back to
Speaker 6: the railway station. But then mckahy went back to the
Speaker 6: body and attempted to set fire to it to conceal
Speaker 6: any forensic evidence, and then rushed back to the station,
Speaker 6: where he was seen by a lot of people in
Speaker 6: the village. There was very very good I witness saw
Speaker 6: him and got on a train back to London with
Speaker 6: Duffy and Marty's parents obviously were frantically not knowing where
Speaker 6: she was. She was missing overnight. The police were called,
Speaker 6: the neighbors were searching the woods and so on, and
Speaker 6: first thing, the following morning, two men in the woods
Speaker 6: found her body and sorry police arrived at the scene,
Speaker 6: and in the words of John Hurst, who was the
Speaker 6: officer who led the Marty Tambosa murder, he said, it
Speaker 6: was probably the worst murder he'd ever ever seen. It
Speaker 6: was a savage, brutal attack, and the amount of energy
Speaker 6: that Surrey put into solving that murder was colossal. They
Speaker 6: were a wealthier police force, they had a lot more resources,
Speaker 6: but they were absolutely tireless initially. Obviously they had no
Speaker 6: idea that this murder was connected with any other crimes,
Speaker 6: and their first assumption was that it was a local crime.
Speaker 6: It had every suggestion of being a local crime because,
Speaker 6: apart from anything else, the geography of the attack, because
Speaker 6: the route that mccahey was seen escaping from was an
Speaker 6: area which you know, you'd have to probably know the
Speaker 6: area pretty well to even know existed, and on my
Speaker 6: first visit there myself, I couldn't even find it with
Speaker 6: a map, which just shows you just how much planning
Speaker 6: had gone into this on a kind of militaristic sort
Speaker 6: of level. So Surrey were, you know, doing all the
Speaker 6: usual things to try and solve this, but more and
Speaker 6: more people claim to have seen this man covered in
Speaker 6: running for the London train, and that made them realize
Speaker 6: that this was probably not a local crime at all.
Speaker 6: And then it was at this point that the phone
Speaker 6: call came through from my dad to say, I think
Speaker 6: we've got the same person here. The piece of wood
Speaker 6: that was lying next to the body from the Spanish windlass.
Speaker 6: Sorry assumed that had been used as an accelerant to
Speaker 6: burning the body, but then they realized, of course it
Speaker 6: wasn't it. There was a tourniqueke. So from then on
Speaker 6: the inquiry really gathered momentum. After that.
Speaker 7: You also write about the again the incredible and extraordinary
Speaker 7: effort by police in this investigation. When they find this
Speaker 7: last victim they have she's tied up with this course
Speaker 7: where kind of unusual course string. Just tell us the
Speaker 7: demonstrate the extent that the police searched for with this
Speaker 7: one bit of evidence.
Speaker 6: Yes, it's right, it's an extraordinary thing. Marty was tied
Speaker 6: up with a very unusual piece of string. It was
Speaker 6: paper based string. To the police officers looking at this
Speaker 6: murder scene, there were three things that were that were significant.
Speaker 6: There were matches lying by the matches and tissues lined
Speaker 6: by the body. There was a piece of woodline by
Speaker 6: the body, and there was the string the body was
Speaker 6: tied up in. Now, matches would and a piece of
Speaker 6: string on their own would mean nothing. They were their
Speaker 6: three items, which are absolutely you know, indistinct, aren't they.
Speaker 6: In fact, all three of them were very relevant. The
Speaker 6: tissue and matches obviously was a common trait in the
Speaker 6: rape attacks and so on. The wood for the tourniquet.
Speaker 6: The string was subjected to all kinds of tests and
Speaker 6: it turned out to be this very unusual paper based
Speaker 6: string called som yarn, and only one manufacturer in the
Speaker 6: country supplied it, and it was a manufacturer in the
Speaker 6: north of England, a long way from here. It was
Speaker 6: unusual because it wasn't sold in shops. It was only
Speaker 6: sold to for industrial use. It was used mainly to
Speaker 6: tie sacks, you know, laundry bags first, silizer bags and
Speaker 6: that sort of thing. And what was also it actually
Speaker 6: came from John Duffy's wife. She worked in a laundry
Speaker 6: at this point and it was used there to tie
Speaker 6: up the laundry bags. Well. What was also significant was
Speaker 6: that not only was it this unusual piece of string,
Speaker 6: but the actual reel of string that Duffy had used
Speaker 6: was in itself unique. When the string came off the
Speaker 6: reelers in the factory, the bits at either end when
Speaker 6: they're being cut are always slightly longer or shorter than average.
Speaker 6: They're what they call end strips. And when they measured
Speaker 6: the string that had been used to tie up Marty Tambosa,
Speaker 6: they found it had indeed come from an edge strip.
Speaker 6: So the expert at the factory said, if you find
Speaker 6: the rest of this ball of string, you'll be able
Speaker 6: to match it absolutely hundred percent, because this is absolutely unique.
Speaker 6: Apart from the fact that it's four years old, it's
Speaker 6: not manufactured more, it's paper based and so on. So
Speaker 6: they had they'd noted down everything from the direction of
Speaker 6: the twist of the string, the width and so on
Speaker 6: and so forth. So they knew that if ever they
Speaker 6: found in any suspects house and they were going through
Speaker 6: all these endless people on this day to day so
Speaker 6: sexual offenders, one of the things they'd be looking for
Speaker 6: would be string, and if they found any of it, it
Speaker 6: would be subjected to rigorous, frantic examination in the hope
Speaker 6: that they could do a match on it. Because of
Speaker 6: it was unique. It's an extraordinary piece of detection. But
Speaker 6: then that's what detection comes down to in the end.
Speaker 6: It's you methodical wearing out of shoe leather and not
Speaker 6: leaving any stone unturned.
Speaker 7: You talk next incredibly about an Locke and she had
Speaker 7: just been married and came back from her honeymoon and vanished.
Speaker 7: Tell us about and Locke and how long it is
Speaker 7: after Martcy's death.
Speaker 6: Yes, Well, Marty died on the seventeenth of April nineteen
Speaker 6: eighty six, and Locke was killed just hundred months later,
Speaker 6: just over a month later, two days after Marty died,
Speaker 6: and Locke was married. And Lot was a twenty nine
Speaker 6: year old secretary who worked for a television company in London.
Speaker 6: She married a local man. She was a very very
Speaker 6: well liked, very demure lady, very respected and she honey
Speaker 6: went in the safe shells with her husband and she
Speaker 6: came back in the second week of May nineteen eighty
Speaker 6: six and for a birthday present. Her birthday was approaching.
Speaker 6: Her husband decided he was going to buy a car,
Speaker 6: so and sold her old car that weekend. On the Sunday,
Speaker 6: her husband had gone away for the weekend, he was
Speaker 6: in an Acua, a sub apcal club club. She couldn't
Speaker 6: go because she was on call from work. There was
Speaker 6: a possibility of overtime. She was called on a Sunday
Speaker 6: afternoon and after she could come into the offices in London.
Speaker 6: She lived just outside London, in Hertfordshire, North London, and
Speaker 6: she would normally have driven in being a Sunday, the
Speaker 6: traffic being quiet, but she'd just told her car, so
Speaker 6: she took a train. She took a train into London,
Speaker 6: went to the office, work on the scripts that she
Speaker 6: needed typing up, and then at about half a state
Speaker 6: at nights, she headed for home. She was never seen
Speaker 6: again and was missing for over two months before she
Speaker 6: was found, and obviously at this point there was no
Speaker 6: reason to connect her with the other with the other crimes.
Speaker 6: The newspapers picked up on the case instantly. It was
Speaker 6: known as the missing bride story and became a media sensation,
Speaker 6: and it was a very unfortunate time. Her husband became
Speaker 6: a suspect because you know, most murders are committed by
Speaker 6: people that victon knows. So the poor man was not
Speaker 6: only having to deal with you know, disappearance to his wife,
Speaker 6: but with all kinds of speculation and insinuation in the press.
Speaker 6: What had actually happened was that Duffy and macka he
Speaker 6: had that Sunday afternoon gone to Brooklyn's Park in Hertfordshire,
Speaker 6: which was Anne's local station. Again. And you play to
Speaker 6: commit an attack like this if you go there, because
Speaker 6: the station is bordered by countryside and you've only got
Speaker 6: to step from the platform and you're into a very
Speaker 6: concealed path with very long grass and so on. They
Speaker 6: waited around there most of the day and were seen
Speaker 6: by various people, and then in the evening, once the
Speaker 6: station guard had gone, they waited and waited. They were
Speaker 6: actually waiting for a specific victim. Mccahey had been there
Speaker 6: several times on previous Sundays and seen a girl always
Speaker 6: getting off a train with a white case, obviously someone
Speaker 6: who went away on regular trips every weekend, and that's
Speaker 6: who they were waiting for. But for some reason that
Speaker 6: Sunday she never appears, and they were all set to
Speaker 6: give up when suddenly and steps off the train and
Speaker 6: they abducted her and led her the furthest distance they
Speaker 6: led any of their victims. They walked her for over
Speaker 6: half an hour through the woods, and then Duffy raped
Speaker 6: to one of a car. He kept watch, and then
Speaker 6: McCary told Duffy to go back to the car, and
Speaker 6: he said take your time about it. So Duffy went
Speaker 6: back to the car on the way rifling through hand handbag,
Speaker 6: feeling some money and throwing the rest of it away.
Speaker 6: McCarty was on for a long time and Duffy started
Speaker 6: to get anxious and was just about to drive off
Speaker 6: looking for him when he saw mccar he running towards
Speaker 6: the car in a very very high state of excitement.
Speaker 6: McCarty got in and said let me drive, and Stuffy said,
Speaker 6: what have you done? And he said, you'll see she
Speaker 6: won't be telling anyone. And he then said, as they
Speaker 6: drove off, keep your eyes open for another one. Thankfully
Speaker 6: there never was another one, but on this occasion mcarhy
Speaker 6: had murdered her alone. So she was missing for weeks
Speaker 6: and weeks and weeks, and there were you know, vast
Speaker 6: searches of the area carried out. It was a very
Speaker 6: very hot summer. The undergrowth was so high and police
Speaker 6: searched and searched. She was found such a long way
Speaker 6: from the stay that it's hardly surprising, you know, that
Speaker 6: she was beyond the boundaries of where the search had
Speaker 6: been you know, had been set. The search was finally
Speaker 6: called off in the middle of July, and then just
Speaker 6: after that some railway workers did find that by then,
Speaker 6: unfortunately she had her body was dreadfully decomposed because of
Speaker 6: the time it had been outside in ferocious hot weather.
Speaker 6: My mum and dad's wedding anniversary was actually the day
Speaker 6: that and Locke was found. I remember my dad telephoning
Speaker 6: to say that he wasn't going to be home to
Speaker 6: take my mum out dinner because, you know, because of
Speaker 6: what had happened. And I spoke to the officer who
Speaker 6: actually drove my dad out to the scene, and he
Speaker 6: said my dad looked at the body and saw how
Speaker 6: she'd been tied up and said, that's the same man, definitely,
Speaker 6: you know. So yeah, and so by now the body
Speaker 6: count was was three and and Lock was the last,
Speaker 6: the last woman to lose her life to those two men.
Speaker 7: Interesting you talk about your father's spotting Duffy in the
Speaker 7: weld area where he thought that it was unusual that
Speaker 7: was in that area and he stopped and searched him.
Speaker 7: What did he find on him.
Speaker 6: That wasn't my father, actually that was another officer, but yeah,
Speaker 6: it's an extraordinary thing. This was a few days before
Speaker 6: the murder of Ann Locke. Actually Duffy had taken a
Speaker 6: train out to a place called north Wald, which was
Speaker 6: a long way outside London in quite a rural area,
Speaker 6: and two police officers were driving through that area on
Speaker 6: completely different matter, and one of them spotted Duffy because
Speaker 6: this officer had actually been present when Duffy had been
Speaker 6: interviewed about the attack on his wife, and he thought,
Speaker 6: I wonder what he's doing here. He's a long way
Speaker 6: from home. So they stopped him and searched him and
Speaker 6: they found on him a knife, matches and tissue paper,
Speaker 6: which didn't mean anything to them at the time but
Speaker 6: obviously was actually very significant. Later on they decided to
Speaker 6: take him into the police dates with questioning, and they
Speaker 6: asked him why he was carrying a knife, and he
Speaker 6: said it was to it was to cut away knots
Speaker 6: in his shoelaces, which as excuses go, it's got to
Speaker 6: be one of the less convincing ones. So he was
Speaker 6: charged with possession of an offensive weapon and put on bail.
Speaker 6: But obviously that became huston significant later. Of course, these
Speaker 6: two officers hadn't see no idea that Duffy was involved
Speaker 6: in anything at this time other than the attack on
Speaker 6: his wife, but they did what they could, which is
Speaker 6: too and the magistrates when Duffy was taken to call
Speaker 6: about this, they argued that he shouldn't be bailed, that
Speaker 6: he was clearly a dangerous man, But the magistrate didn't
Speaker 6: feel that legally he could be refused bail, so he
Speaker 6: was given bail and Locke died about four days later.
Speaker 7: Let's fast forward a bit because we had not enough
Speaker 7: time to even cover part of this. Yes, incredible story.
Speaker 6: By shot.
Speaker 7: Talked about you mentioned the number one five ninety four
Speaker 7: in terms of the A Secrets sex offenders, the list
Speaker 7: that the police had to go through. They finally get
Speaker 7: to his number, they call him. He eventually comes in
Speaker 7: to be questioned. Tell us about this questioning and your
Speaker 7: father's raw and what it leads to.
Speaker 6: Sure, he was the first person of all the people
Speaker 6: they'd interviewed who refused to give blood samples, and he
Speaker 6: was also the first person who came in with a
Speaker 6: solicitor as well. He insisted on having a lawyer with him,
Speaker 6: and he seen that the two officers thought, there's something
Speaker 6: I knew about this guy. One of the things about
Speaker 6: Duffy they were struck by with these piercing blue eyes
Speaker 6: he had the very piercing spare. Was a lot of
Speaker 6: the victims, a lot of the rape victims said that
Speaker 6: the shorter man had very piercing blue eyes. He was
Speaker 6: also very his answers were run convincing. He was rig
Speaker 6: lib and trying to be much too helpful on occasions
Speaker 6: and then other times please innocence to ridiculous things, you know,
Speaker 6: like they asked me if he'd ever been in the
Speaker 6: Guildford area, which is where Marty Tambosa was killed, and
Speaker 6: he said, where's the Guildford area where anybody who lived
Speaker 6: in in the southeast of England would know? It's you know,
Speaker 6: it's a big town. It was a silly thing to say.
Speaker 6: But also what was significant was that while Duffy was
Speaker 6: being questioned by these two officers, they both they then
Speaker 6: both went out of the room and said to each other,
Speaker 6: we think that this could be him. While they're out
Speaker 6: of the room, Duffy looked down on the desk and
Speaker 6: he saw on the on the desk the photo fits
Speaker 6: for the North London rapists, and realized that the game
Speaker 6: was up, that this could you know, this didn't look
Speaker 6: good for him. So two things happened as a result
Speaker 6: of that meeting, which were crucial. Firstly, these two officers
Speaker 6: went to their superior and said we've seen someone that
Speaker 6: we're not really happy with, and their boss, being a
Speaker 6: good detective, said okay, I trust your judgment. We'll have
Speaker 6: a little we'll have a closer look at him. There
Speaker 6: are a number of things that were against Duffy. For instance,
Speaker 6: he had ginger hair, where as a lot of the
Speaker 6: witnesses said that the shorter man had fair hair, but
Speaker 6: that's a trick of you know, nighttime sodium lighting and
Speaker 6: so on and so forth. But they decided to look
Speaker 6: at him. What Duffy did was as soon as he
Speaker 6: left that police station, he was in a stage of
Speaker 6: panic because he knew that the police were closing in.
Speaker 6: So he went to a friend of his that he
Speaker 6: knew from martial arts training, who was a rather gullible,
Speaker 6: naive boy. And Duffy had been for a while, probably
Speaker 6: trying to probably use the word groom him now. Actually
Speaker 6: he would a casion he dropped hints about them committing
Speaker 6: a crime together, which this boy wasn't interested in the tour,
Speaker 6: but Duffy was trying. Duffy went and told him this
Speaker 6: ridiculous story that there was someone was after him. He'd
Speaker 6: stumbled across something secret and people were after him to
Speaker 6: try and silence him, and he needed to find a
Speaker 6: way out of it. So he said to this boy,
Speaker 6: I want you to slash me with this knife and
Speaker 6: beat me up so that I can then claim that
Speaker 6: I've been mugged and I've got amnesia and don't know anything.
Speaker 6: He begged and pleaded this guy. Guy did it. Duffy
Speaker 6: then stumbled into the local police station saying I've been
Speaker 6: mugged and I don't know who I am. I don't
Speaker 6: have any memory anymore, and he was taken to a
Speaker 6: local mental hospital for observation. So, of course, the following
Speaker 6: day the police decided to take a closer interest in
Speaker 6: Duffy found this out and thought this was not only
Speaker 6: unlikely but also interesting. But duffy Ry now was a
Speaker 6: patient in a mental hospital, so they couldn't get him
Speaker 6: out of there. Unfortunately, Duffy was an outpatient he was
Speaker 6: free to come and go as much as he wanted,
Speaker 6: and at this point, knowing that the game was just
Speaker 6: about up. One day he left the mental hospital and
Speaker 6: raped another girl, a fourteen year old schoolgirl, and he
Speaker 6: actually said when he abducted her, he said, the police
Speaker 6: are after me. The police were indeed after him by now,
Speaker 6: and they put him under a prolonged period of observation,
Speaker 6: and he outwitted him a few times because he knew
Speaker 6: the railway networks so well. Eventually, one night they saw
Speaker 6: him heading towards a park in North London, obviously preparing
Speaker 6: to come at another offense, and they couldn't take any risks,
Speaker 6: so they swooped and arrested him and brought him for questioning.
Speaker 6: So he was arrested finally November nineteen eighty six and
Speaker 6: claimed he had no memory. He never denied these crimes.
Speaker 6: Interesting he didn't say he did do them. He didn't
Speaker 6: say he didn't do them. He just said he couldn't
Speaker 6: remember anything. It was obvious that he Anneedsa was faked,
Speaker 6: because he is. The whole thing wasn't very convincing, but
Speaker 6: there wasn't much they could maneuver with it. He just
Speaker 6: wouldn't say a word the most important question they had
Speaker 6: was who was the other man? And Duffy wasn't saying anything.
Speaker 6: There was two reasons he wasn't saying anything. One obviously
Speaker 6: because he was pleading ignorance for all the crimes, but
Speaker 6: also because Duffy and McCaughey from the very start had
Speaker 6: sworn a bond of allegiance to each other. They'd always
Speaker 6: sworn that if one of them was caught, they would
Speaker 6: never ever tell on the other person. And Duffy had
Speaker 6: said to mccahey, if you get caught, I'll look after
Speaker 6: your family and so on. It's an extraordinary sort of
Speaker 6: packed between them, and Duffy honored that. But the police
Speaker 6: went to neighbour's friends, family relatives, Duffy's wife and so on,
Speaker 6: and it became clear very quickly that the only person
Speaker 6: really that Duffy associated with, the only person right through
Speaker 6: his life, was David mccahey, And when they looked at
Speaker 6: mccahi's description and so on and so forth, they thought
Speaker 6: this has to be the man. So mccahey was arrested
Speaker 6: and brought him for questioning, and was very lived very
Speaker 6: cockshaw an interview. He knew they didn't really have very much,
Speaker 6: and they put him on identity parades and a lot
Speaker 6: of the girls didn't pick him out. They were terrified.
Speaker 6: In those days, you had to walk along the line
Speaker 6: and actually put your hand on someone. And you know,
Speaker 6: this was the man who had told them that he
Speaker 6: knew where they lived and if anything happened, if they
Speaker 6: reported it, he would come back for them. So it
Speaker 6: was hardly surprising, but there were little bits of circumstantial
Speaker 6: evidence that gradually began to come together. Mccar he's alibi
Speaker 6: weren't very strong, and there was various other things, descriptions.
Speaker 6: They did a massive search of his home and found weapons.
Speaker 6: They found tissues, matches, he was an on smoker, knives,
Speaker 6: blinding tape, that sort of thing, and a lot of
Speaker 6: these items were found in the cab of his van.
Speaker 6: Even but even though they tried and tried, there just
Speaker 6: wasn't enough to hold him. So unfortunately, after extensive questioning,
Speaker 6: mccar he was released. And in fact, one of the
Speaker 6: police officers told me that when he went to return
Speaker 6: mcar's clothes, when they came back from forentic examination the car,
Speaker 6: he was standing on his doorstep laughing at them, and
Speaker 6: he said, we'll come back. I'll be back knocking on
Speaker 6: this door again one day, and he just laughed. But
Speaker 6: of course, of course they did eventually. But anyway, Duffie
Speaker 6: was prepared for trial, pleaded not guilty to everything on
Speaker 6: the ground that he didn't know what anyone was talking about,
Speaker 6: and went for trial at the Old Bailey and was
Speaker 6: found guilty on all the accounts of rape that he
Speaker 6: was accused of and two of the three murders, but
Speaker 6: the murder of Anne Locke he was found not guilty of,
Speaker 6: the reason being that there was absolutely no forensic evidence
Speaker 6: at all because Anne's body was so badly decomposed, and
Speaker 6: the judge said that it would be an unsafe conviction
Speaker 6: to do that, so at least there was closure on
Speaker 6: the other things. So Duffy then went down for life
Speaker 6: imprisonment in January nineteen eighty eight, and my dad retired
Speaker 6: from the police force and David mulcahe slipped back into
Speaker 6: society as a family man, and nothing more was heard
Speaker 6: of the case for nearly ten years, and then this extraordinary,
Speaker 6: final final chapter occurred.
Speaker 7: Tell us about the extraordinary and very interest resting note
Speaker 7: that the police put in Duffy's file.
Speaker 6: Yes Indeed, when Duffy went to prison, there was a
Speaker 6: feeding amongst the police officers that it'll be interesting to
Speaker 6: see what a few years in prison do to him,
Speaker 6: you know, whether he will decide to come clean and
Speaker 6: you know, spill the beams about everything. And one of
Speaker 6: the officers who had worked on the Unlock inquiry, Les Boland,
Speaker 6: when he received the promotion to the point where he
Speaker 6: was able to initiate his own inquiries, he went to
Speaker 6: see Duffy in prison and ask him if he was
Speaker 6: prepared to talk. And Duffy by this point had had
Speaker 6: a complete mental collapse. Although his amnesia was faked by
Speaker 6: the time that it came to you know, his parents
Speaker 6: finding out Aboudy his crimes and so on and so forth,
Speaker 6: he'd actually had a mental breakdown. And so he'd lived
Speaker 6: in prison in a kind of complete phase of isolation
Speaker 6: and oblivion to everything. So this meeting with his police
Speaker 6: officer sort of triggered memories to start coming back to him,
Speaker 6: and Duffy said that it looked like Duffy might cooperate,
Speaker 6: but he was worried about the effects of revisiting his
Speaker 6: past would have on him, and he asked if he
Speaker 6: could have some sort of counseling which and so the
Speaker 6: police's attitude was a sort of softly softly approach on this.
Speaker 6: Duffy then began seeing a psychiatrist in prison and began
Speaker 6: talking to her. Now she didn't know anything about the
Speaker 6: background to the case or the fact that there was
Speaker 6: another man that was still at large, but Duffy began
Speaker 6: to journey back into his past and when it got
Speaker 6: to him talking about his school days, he mentioned David
Speaker 6: Mukahey and revealed that they had committed these crimes together.
Speaker 6: The psychiatrist said, which prison is here, and Duffy said,
Speaker 6: he's not in prison. He was never caught, which the
Speaker 6: course was absolute jaw dropping to her. So she said, look,
Speaker 6: I'm going to have to report what you've said, and
Speaker 6: Duffy was fully aware of that. So she went to
Speaker 6: Duffy's file and there she found a note that had
Speaker 6: been left by the police to say, if John Duffy
Speaker 6: ever starts talking about these crimes, we would like to
Speaker 6: know about it. So she contacted that officer and told
Speaker 6: him what was happening, and said, could you give me
Speaker 6: some more details about the case so that I can
Speaker 6: ask more And he said no, I can't do that.
Speaker 6: This was a very shrewd piece of manuverent by the police,
Speaker 6: the officer said. And I can't do that because if
Speaker 6: I start giving you information on the background to the
Speaker 6: case in the years to come, if this ever comes
Speaker 6: to court, a clever counsel could say that I had
Speaker 6: put words into your mouth, so I can't do it.
Speaker 6: So everything that he says will have to be done
Speaker 6: with a complete lack of knowledge on your part. Guffy
Speaker 6: then went through a very detailed set of confessions detailing
Speaker 6: everything that had happened between him and David McCaughey. But
Speaker 6: there was an extraordinary thing that he couldn't possibly have
Speaker 6: known that was happening at the same time of this,
Speaker 6: And it really is. And I said in the book
Speaker 6: that the final chapter of this case is one of
Speaker 6: the most remarkable stories in British criminal history for reasons,
Speaker 6: and not least for this one. At the same time
Speaker 6: that Duffy was journeying back into the past, an identical
Speaker 6: series of rapes was beginning to take place in the
Speaker 6: same area of North London that he and David had
Speaker 6: operated him. The police officers working on this didn't have
Speaker 6: any knowledge of this previous case ten to fifteen years ago.
Speaker 6: These attacks that were taking place were again stranger attacks
Speaker 6: in the Hampstead Heath area with a knife from so
Speaker 6: on and so forth, but this time it was only
Speaker 6: one man doing the attacks. They did have a DNA
Speaker 6: profile of the attacker, because by now DNA had come
Speaker 6: into forensic science. They had a DNA profile, but they
Speaker 6: had no hits on the database. It was obviously someone
Speaker 6: who didn't have a record. One of the officers, Caroline Murphy,
Speaker 6: was talking to a colleague about this and saying how
Speaker 6: frustrating it was that there was no result. And this
Speaker 6: colleague said, I remember a case in the eighties that
Speaker 6: I worked on where there were two men and one
Speaker 6: of them we never managed to get. I wonder if
Speaker 6: it could be him. So Caroline looked into this and
Speaker 6: came up with a name, David mulcahe, and on running
Speaker 6: a check, discovered that mccahey lived in exactly in the
Speaker 6: center of where these attacks were taking place. It looked
Speaker 6: like an open and shotcase. He started he'd become active
Speaker 6: again and that was it. So David was arrested, brought
Speaker 6: into the police station and was, as ever, very very
Speaker 6: cocky and very aggressive and very arrogant, and they asked
Speaker 6: him if he would provide a sample for DNA, and
Speaker 6: he was rather sort of, sort of dismissive about it,
Speaker 6: and they asked him if perhaps he could provide some
Speaker 6: hair which would be enough. And throughout this entire questioning
Speaker 6: he didn't look at the female officer once until this point.
Speaker 6: He suddenly looked at her and basically tried to intimidate
Speaker 6: her with his stare, reached into his hair and just
Speaker 6: pulled the chunk of it out, just ripped it out
Speaker 6: of the roots. It was apparently just the most vile thing.
Speaker 6: But she thought, I'm not going to give him the
Speaker 6: satisfaction of reacting to this. So he gave her this
Speaker 6: hair and they run a check on it and found
Speaker 6: that it was to match that he was indeed innocent,
Speaker 6: So they had to go back and say to him, okay, right,
Speaker 6: it's not you. Off you go, and he knew he
Speaker 6: wasn't involved in it. Sometime later the rapist was caught.
Speaker 6: It was the fact where Edward Biggs. It was just
Speaker 6: pure coincidence that McCaughey fitted the profile of him. However,
Speaker 6: because Caroline Murphy's interest in this had made her wonder, if,
Speaker 6: you know, if it had been macah oppressing again. Now
Speaker 6: that they had DNA, they wondered if there were any
Speaker 6: exhibits left over from the eighties offenses that were still
Speaker 6: around which could now be checked for DNA. Sure enough,
Speaker 6: they found some exhibits from the eighties and when they
Speaker 6: did a DNA check, they came out with David mccaughy's
Speaker 6: DNA on them. And that was an extraordinary breakthrough because
Speaker 6: it was set forward by a series of coincidences. Now,
Speaker 6: of course, the DNA profile on its own would be
Speaker 6: enough to secure a conviction on one of the counts
Speaker 6: of rape. They also found fingerprints which they hadn't had
Speaker 6: a technology to detect before, on the inside of a
Speaker 6: piece of tape, and then most of port and of
Speaker 6: all they also now had the confessions of John So
Speaker 6: Mtarhi was arrested again and this time he really assumed
Speaker 6: that the police were clushing at Straw's And when he
Speaker 6: was sat down, he was told you're being interviewed now
Speaker 6: in connection with some offenses in the eighties, and he
Speaker 6: just couldn't believe it. And then they mentioned DNA and
Speaker 6: DNA profile had been found, and he vomited in the
Speaker 6: police interview room in shock and realized that this was
Speaker 6: the end. The police then spent two years building up
Speaker 6: the case against him. It was an extraordinary inquiry. A
Speaker 6: lot of the paperwork from the eighties had been destroyed
Speaker 6: or lost, so they had to go back and track
Speaker 6: down victims. A lot of the rape victims were now
Speaker 6: living in other parts of the world. They had to
Speaker 6: track these women down and say to them, we need
Speaker 6: you to revisit this and we can't guarantee a conviction.
Speaker 6: And a lot of these women had moved on with
Speaker 6: their lives. They were now married or whatever, and hadn't
Speaker 6: told their partners about this ordeal that they'd been through.
Speaker 6: It required. The amount of professionism it required is impossible
Speaker 6: to underestimate. But it culminated in the longest murder trial
Speaker 6: in British criminal history, which ran for four and a
Speaker 6: half months at the Old Bailey and led eventually to
Speaker 6: an incredible result. David mccarr. He was found guilty of
Speaker 6: fifteen different counts, three murders, seven rapes, and five for
Speaker 6: attempted break the conspiracies to rape, and realized on the
Speaker 6: announcement of the guilty verdicts that he was going to
Speaker 6: spend the rest of his life in prison. And in fact,
Speaker 6: when he came into court on the day of the
Speaker 6: announcer of the verdicts, he really thought he got away
Speaker 6: with it. He was so arrogant and so smug, and
Speaker 6: I think when the first guilty was read out, I
Speaker 6: think the blood drain from his face and you realized
Speaker 6: the game was up. And John Duffy gave evidence against
Speaker 6: him over fourteen days. It was the first time ever
Speaker 6: that a category A prisoner had given evidence at the
Speaker 6: Old Bailey like that. And throughout that fourteen days, mccar
Speaker 6: he tried everything he was he'd shout across the dock
Speaker 6: at Duffy, he would glare at him and so on
Speaker 6: that Duffy wouldn't be swayed. He told everything. And the
Speaker 6: other thing was that Duffy actually confessed to a load
Speaker 6: more crimes which the police hadn't been able to prove before.
Speaker 6: So the only thing that Duffy got out of it
Speaker 6: was another life sentence. And that's what couldn't that's why
Speaker 6: McCarthey defense didn't have a leg to stand on. They
Speaker 6: couldn't in any way suggest that Duffy was doing this
Speaker 6: to try and you know, get he sentence reduced or anything.
Speaker 6: His sentence was doubled, He wasn't reduced, you know. So
Speaker 6: an extraordinary, extraordinary affair.
Speaker 7: Yes, this is an incredible tale too. And the satisfying
Speaker 7: conclusion of having John Duffy convicted. He your father was
Speaker 7: not privy to David Mackay being sentenced. But in this
Speaker 7: investigation that you do for this book and covering the
Speaker 7: footsteps that your father walked in this investigation, what was
Speaker 7: the most surprising thing? What was the most interesting thing
Speaker 7: that you've discovered about your father and this investigation?
Speaker 6: I think I think the most surprising thing, the most
Speaker 6: powerful thing, I would say, is that when I started
Speaker 6: doing this, I wandered into this story as a bit
Speaker 6: of an innocent I'd grown up in an atmosphere of
Speaker 6: you know, your dad's a policeman, you know you're you're
Speaker 6: sort of in that sort of world to some degree,
Speaker 6: but you never really quite understand the real horror and
Speaker 6: tragedy of these sort of things until you get that
Speaker 6: little bit closer to it like this. And what I
Speaker 6: found amazing is to carve my mind back to my
Speaker 6: childhood and think of all the times that I can
Speaker 6: see now my dad coming in from work each evening,
Speaker 6: and you know, you're a child, you don't really think
Speaker 6: about it when I think about what he had, what
Speaker 6: he'd spent his whole day having to deal with, and
Speaker 6: it just never showed on him at all. He had
Speaker 6: this extraordinary ability, like all policemen have to have, of
Speaker 6: just being able to close off, to just shut down,
Speaker 6: to leave his work at the office. And I couldn't
Speaker 6: do that. And I wasn't even you know, I was
Speaker 6: only doing this secondhand. You know, I wasn't personally involved
Speaker 6: in this case or anything. But I found it really
Speaker 6: really difficult to shut off from this. I found it
Speaker 6: extremely traumatic and very very haunting. But he'd actually, you know,
Speaker 6: he'd been there on the ground dealing with, you know,
Speaker 6: the victims and their families and so on. So it
Speaker 6: was a remarkable resilience and mental discipline that he'd had
Speaker 6: and which all policemen have. And it was and I
Speaker 6: think the other thing as well, like this is I
Speaker 6: hadn't realized before it was a word I'd always taken
Speaker 6: for granted, was the word detective. But I noticed I
Speaker 6: realized by talking to so many policemen through this, just
Speaker 6: what respect they have for that word. You know, to
Speaker 6: be a policeman is one thing. To be a detective
Speaker 6: is a specific thing beyond that, and it requires a
Speaker 6: particular type of person. And he was. He was a
Speaker 6: great detective. You know, they all, all of the officers
Speaker 6: who who you know, who were key to this inquiry
Speaker 6: were really great detectives. It's a remarkable story of detection
Speaker 6: against all odds. They were, you know, these two men
Speaker 6: were were brought to justice eventually by more than anything else,
Speaker 6: by persistent detection. So I think that would be the
Speaker 6: answer to that. Yeah, I think his his mental resilience
Speaker 6: and his detective skills.
Speaker 7: Yes, it's an incredible tale. One of the most important
Speaker 7: cases in the history of Great Britain, criminal cases in
Speaker 7: Great Britain's history.
Speaker 6: And it is actually the one thing that's the other
Speaker 6: thing that was really important about it, Apart from the
Speaker 6: first time that DNA you know, the longest murders one
Speaker 6: in history and so on, the other thing that's very
Speaker 6: important was the first time ever that psychological profiling had
Speaker 6: been used in a British murder investigation. It was something
Speaker 6: that was happening in America, the CIA were making in
Speaker 6: roads with it, but this was the first time in
Speaker 6: Britain it had been used. And obviously that's that's gone
Speaker 6: into a lot more in the book as well, But
Speaker 6: there's so much work has been done in that field
Speaker 6: today and we know so much more is known about
Speaker 6: that at the time, this was unheard of in Britain
Speaker 6: and I'm proved to be very very significant.
Speaker 7: Yes, and it's also you chronicle sort of a form
Speaker 7: of geographical profiling as well as the criminal profiling, is
Speaker 7: that it seemed to be far ahead of itself with
Speaker 7: this police forces and it's techniques and efforts. I want
Speaker 7: to thank you very much. I want to thank you
Speaker 7: very much for coming on and talking about a dangerous place,
Speaker 7: the story of the railway murders, and the story of
Speaker 7: your father and the great Britain's and most important one
Speaker 7: of the most important cases. For those that might want
Speaker 7: to look at your rather work or if there a
Speaker 7: face book page, how could people contact you or find
Speaker 7: out more about your work.
Speaker 6: Well, I do a blog actually which people could look up.
Speaker 6: There's I do a blog called Dreams Gathering Dust, which
Speaker 6: is just a space to talk about stories of all sorts,
Speaker 6: there's some there's some crime things on there because this
Speaker 6: did actually ignite a bit of an interest in in
Speaker 6: true crime anyway, so that's probably the best place and
Speaker 6: I can be contacted through that as well. We've I've
Speaker 6: been very, very moved by the reaction that this book's got,
Speaker 6: because the most important thing for me was to, you know,
Speaker 6: to do the story justice, not just to my father,
Speaker 6: but to all the opposite who works on it, and
Speaker 6: all to all the people who were personally affected by it.
Speaker 6: And we've been nominated for the Gold Dagger Award for
Speaker 6: the Crime Writers Association, which is very satisfying. That's really
Speaker 6: nice because you know, it's well, it's just it's a
Speaker 6: nice little thing to have. But I'm I'm glad I
Speaker 6: did it regardless of that, because it it was important
Speaker 6: for me, and it is a story that I do
Speaker 6: think is important to be remembered.
Speaker 7: Absolutely, And I want to thank you very much for
Speaker 7: coming on and talking about a dangerous place, the story
Speaker 7: of the railway murders. Simon Farker, Thank you very much,
Speaker 7: an incredible book, and thank you, thank.
Speaker 6: You the interview. Have a great day, Thank you as pleasure.
Speaker 6: Thank you. Cheers by thank