Speaker 1: Normally, at the start of a show, i'd give some
scathing screed against religion to encourage people to call in
and talk about their gods. But there have been some
pretty heavy things in the news lately. And while this
is a nonprofit organization, and so I, as a volunteer,
am not allowed to name any specific politician or political
party or whatever, I'd like to take this moment and
this opportunity to talk to the people who have perhaps
found themselves as affected as I have been by the
state of the world and the state of the country lately.
Learned helplessness is the term for the passive surrender of
control when repeated failure begins to be perceived as inevitable.
It's what happens when attempt after attempt after attempt produces
nothing but negative outcomes and causes one to start to
believe that those negative outcomes are completely out of their control.
It's an omenon that's been experimentally demonstrated several times, like
in the popular psychology class demonstration, where one half of
the class receives an easy puzzle and the other half
is given an impossible, uns cale puzzle, and after just
a few minutes of watching half of the rooms seemingly
solve what is obviously impossible. The students who think themselves
to be failing will begin to consider themselves to be failures.
And later on, when those same students are given the
same easy puzzle as everyone else, they will consider it
to be just as impossible as before. They won't even
try because they know that they will fail. When I
look around the world today, there are lots of reasons
to feel helpless. Climate change is rampant, anti intellectualism is
on the rise. LGBT people are back in the political crosshairs,
and immigrants of all kinds are stuck right along with them.
Vaccinating vaccination rates are decreasing, Wealth inequality rates are skyrocketing.
Literacy rates are horrifyingly low. They're ongoing genocides in Gaza, Soudan, China, Congo,
and ongoing violence and poverty all over the world. What
can we do against such insanity? I can make some
signs and go protest, but I have to buy the
poster board from a big corporation like Amazon or Walmart
and have to drive across town to do it, which
burns a lot of gas. I can try to feed
the homeless, but there are often laws against that in
any meat that I might give them contributes to factory farming.
I can call my representatives and go out and vote,
but the issues that matter most aren't popular enough to
pass legislation on, and the best candidates on the ballot
are certainly no angels. When we try and try, again
and again to make positive change in the world, only
to be met with the same bullshit day in and
day out, When we try to live in a more
ethical way in one regard, only to find that we've
been contributing to some atrocity in another regard. When bombings
and school shootings and rampant institutional racism, oh don't even
make the news anymore, When every protest is met with
violence with no accountability, it is easy to learn helplessness,
to begin to assume that those negative outcomes are inevitable,
and that there is no difference that you can make,
and that is exactly what the most evil people in
this world want you to fin Hopeless people don't march.
Hopeless people don't vote. Hopeless people don't build. Hopeless people
don't donate. Hopeless people don't share ideas. Hopeless people don't
stand up to the massed men raiding their communities. If
repeated failure to stop the tides of terror can teach
you to be helpless, then the rich and powerful don't
have to lift a finger to stop you, because you
will stop yourself for them. You may feel hopeless right now,
but I need you to know that you are not helpless.
Your voice may shake, your body may break, but you
are not as weak as they want.
Speaker 2: You to believe.
Speaker 1: People just like you, the people on the bottom, the poor,
the destitute, the hungry, the hopeless, have always been the
ones to drive the world forward. No one of us
can save this whole world, but every one of us
can make a difference. And those differences add up faster
than you can imagine. Holding community meets at your community center,
bringing aid to the protests, adding your bodies to the
crowd and your voices to the chant. Getting to know
the people around you so that those in power can't
convince you to distrust your neighbors. These are the actions
that save the world in the long run. Each and
every one of us has a decision to make every
single day, and that decision is what kind of difference
am I going to make?
Speaker 3: Will it be positive?
Speaker 1: Even a little bit. Will I make somebody smile today?
Will I help somebody today? Will I stand up for
someone today while I educate someone today? Will I clean
up my little part of the world just a little
bit today? Or will I simply not try and let
the darkness creep in just a little bit further. So
today I am urging you. I am begging you to
make the right choice. Make it again and again and
again and again and again and again and again, because
are not moments, they are habits. Kindness is not weakness,
it is resistance. Compassion is not passive, it is power.
Empathy is not sin, it is progress. And hope in
the face of failure is not madness, it is defiance.
Every act of love is an act of rebellion. So
please keep your hope and your love alive, and do
not let yourself learn to be helpless. Support your community,
support charities, support each other, and we will get through
this together. But this is a call in show about atheism.
We're here to debate religion. So if you think that
hope comes from the Bible or whatever I guess, call
in because the show starts right now. Welcome one and
all to the Atheist experience. I'm your host for us FALCI,
and I'm joined today by the charming and handsome Jimmy.
How are you, my dear friend.
Speaker 3: Oh, you know just the right words to say, powerful,
powerful stuff. I am doing wonderful. Thank you so much
for coming up here with me today. I'm trying to
clean up my little corner of the world, and so
that's why i wanted to come and sit next to you.
So I'm looking forward to a good show.
Speaker 1: Yeah, me too, Me too. It's it's like little things
like this, little organizations like this, little community events like this,
Shows like this. I can tell from experience that they
help a lot of people and they change a lot
of lives. I'm happy to be a part of this.
I'm proud to be a supporter of this organization, a
volunteer for this organization. And I hope that everybody out
there watching is excited to be here too. I'm excited
to participate in the show, either as a viewer or
as a caller. If you believe in a god or God's,
if you have a religion that you would like to
tell us to convert to, if you have a reason
to believe in the supernatural, or if you are to
have some other issue with atheism as a general id
if you think the Big Bang or evolution or whatever
it doesn't make sense, or if you're a science denier
of other kinds, this is your chance to pick up
the phone and call people who disagree with you and
have an actual conversation. But before the show gets started,
I do have to read this little thing and it
says the Atheist Experience is a product of the Atheist
Community of Austin, which is a five to one c
three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking,
secular humanism, and the separation of religion and government. Those
are the things that you need to know before the
show starts with that Junior like, how are you, like,
What's what's going on in your world?
Speaker 3: I'm doing well. I'm doing very well. Thank you for asking.
You know, I am trying to make a positive impact
and I have actually challenged all eighty of my students
to do a weight loss plan with me recently, so
I've been encouraging them and sharing my progress online with
them and I'm actually down fifteen pounds. So all right, yeah, thanks, thanks.
So it's been it's been really good. My wife, who
loves you, by the way, you guys have met before,
just graduated nursing school. Uh yeah, thanks, so man, we're good.
You know, everything is great. How the hell are you doing?
Speaker 1: The busy is all crap, my dude, you know, work
and just going through school and and trying to balance
homework and classes and call in shows and TikTok and
YouTube and every other fricking thing all the time. It's
it's a nightmare, but it's.
Speaker 3: It's all incredible.
Speaker 1: I couldn't imagine doing anything else. I am also trying
to to to shed some pounds right now because I'm
just so I've just been sitting around for so long,
just stressing and working on one thing that I didn't
even realize how non active my body had been getting.
Speaker 3: You're a doctoral student, right, Yeah, that's great, that's great.
I think the last time I saw you, you hadn't
started that program yet. How's that going?
Speaker 1: Insane? I'm teaching myself chemistry from the ground up A
lot of times. I well, before the show, we we
were you know, we we have we get here early,
the hosts to get here early, and we do a
tech checks and everything like that, and we have a
little bit of time to wait, and I had to
just peace out because I'm currently in the middle of
a take home genetics exam. I'm doing a molecular genetic
scurse this year, and uh, I've so I've got here
next to me. I keep I've got my textbooks here
and I'm bumping into these things as I'm here because
I'm trying to crack out this exam and I and
I've gone starting my research. Tomorrow I have to drive
down to Oklahoma City and do that. It's it's so
unbelievably stressful, but so unbelievably worth it, and it just
makes me so happy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I imagine that's great. Yeah, So I'm thanks for
coming up and working with me today. You know, I'm
hoping that we get some some great calls. I really appreciated. So,
I think, what did you say before the show? They
were asking, well, who do you want to talk to today?
And you said, well, I could always I can always
bash on some transphobes or something like that, phobes. Yes, yeah, yeah,
So I'm hoping that they're listening and they'll give us
a call, you know. I you know, I see a
lot of people that that I love having to respond
to changes in society, changes in the power structures that
make up our country. Uh, you know, and I it
breaks my heart that I could possibly do something more.
And I just I hearing your intro today, Man, it
just makes me want to do more, you know. And
I just hope, I hope that you were able to
inspire somebody. I mean, I feel like if you just
got one person to think more about, all right, how
can I motivate my community? How can I be a
voice in my community? Even if it's one meeting one day? Right?
You just go to this community planning meeting. You don't
even you've never done it before. You're a little bit nervous.
Just walk in, see what it's about. But yeah, you know,
so many of the we never really see the changes coming.
And then all of a sudden, you know, somebody that
you love, somebody that you care about, is affected by
these changes. And you say, oh, man, am I part
of the problem. Yeah, And it's just a it's a
deep thing to think about. So your intro have me
considering a lot.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate that because I got to tell you,
I wrote that intro largely for me. To remember as well,
because it really, as I said at the beginning, it's
been it's been really hard watching the news every day
and tuning in to my favorite channels every day and
hearing like what's going on, and I have to hear
about how children are being woken up from their beds
in the middle of the night and dragged out of
their homes and zip ties just to see if they
belong there. And that's certainly not going to traumatize anybody
by masked men with no badges or identification or consistent uniforms,
so we don't know if that's a kidnapper or not,
and we're just supposed to be okay with that. And
that's normal now, I guess. And it drives me up
a wall to have to pretend like this is acceptable
even for a second, when it's just not. And I
see families being torn apart, and I see, like I said,
you know, LGBT people especially being tossed in the political crosshairs,
being treated as demons and sub human, and every immigrant
being treated as if there's some sort of foreign invader
and adversary. It is just this long term proliferation of racist, hateful,
homophobic xenophobic, bigoted, call it what it is, fucking stupid
rhetoric that has been normalized so much, and now we're
pretending like we don't know where this came from. Yeah,
and we're trying to go back and whitewash all of this.
This just hideous, hideous rhetoric for the past few years.
Great example, you know, I said, you know, I'm happy
to talk to creationists or transphobes anytime. All the arguments
against trans people the exact same arguments that were against
homosexuals while I was in high school. Exactly the same crap,
and it means exactly the same nothing. It's the same
science denial on level with anti vax and flat earth.
It's conspiracy theory wrapped in ignorance. It's just insane, and
yet it's on a national stage as if it matters,
if it means something. It's it's bizarre. It's very bizarre.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, a misunderstanding, a willful ignorance, probably for large
portions of our population who just you know, feel comfortable
in this zone where their tribe flourishes because the hate
is not directed towards them. You know, being in the
military for sixteen years now, I've had some challenges. Okay.
First of all, when I'm in my community, in my uniform,
you know, people don't know how to take me. Many
people like to assume who I am and what my
thoughts are, you know, what my positions are, and you know,
maybe if I am party to the things that they
don't like. But I have to tell you, I've seen,
you know, the government do great things. I've seen the
government do things I don't agree with, and you know,
in the end, I am truly hopeful that the United
States States, you know, will make the right decisions. I
remember when Don't Ask, Don't Tell was repealed, and so
many people who wanted to proudly come out and serve
their country and be who they are did so, you know,
and I have I've served alongside so many wonderful members
of the LGBTQ community who make me so proud to
know that, like, if something terrible was going to happen
and I had to rely on this person, they would
be there. And it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what
they worship, even you know, who they pray to, but
who they love, you know, And I'm just hopeful that
we can get to a place where we can all
understand each other. Things are crazy right now, you know.
And I feel like being here and being being a
voice for my community and you know, my people is
a good contribution. So I just hope everybody takes my
words as as words that are encouraging and loving and
supportive and and I hope everybody, you know, stay safe
and he's doing the best they can.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like the same way and on all accounts.
And it's it's it is hard because I get where
you're coming from. I'm a white dude in Oklahoma. People
usually assume I'm on their team when I'm very not. Yeah,
I get it.
Speaker 3: I do.
Speaker 1: Also, while we're here, a couple of things I want
to shout out. Number one, I've got the chat over here,
and just anybody, if you're mad about pronouns, pick up
the phone. Let's talk if you you know. Again, lines
are open for for theists and believers and whatnot. Anybody
who disagrees with him. We're saying right now, let's talk.
Number on the bottom of screen there five one, two
nine nine two four to two, or use the weblink
of the description. I also want to give a special
shout out.
Speaker 3: We we have.
Speaker 1: I do scroll through the comment section sometimes on these videos,
and I've noticed we have one super fan who comments
multiple times on every single show, no matter how who
the hosts are just bitching about pronouns. Some it's always
the same template as something like it's more than a
little ironic that so and so says this thing about skepticism,
but they have pronouns. If you see that person, holy crap,
I want to talk to that person. Have that person called,
and that's I would love to have a conversation with
that person, just to just talk about what language is.
But it doesn't have to be just that. We do
get plenty of comments on all of our shows whenever
people are grumpy that we are woke or that we're
defending LGBT people, as if that's a new thing for
this community. I said at the beginning of another show
a long time ago that I used to watch The
Atheist Experience when I was younger. For like ten years,
I would watch this show, and the best calls weren't
even like I loved the ones where somebody would tear
down religion. Of course that was the point of the show,
but like some of the best calls out there were
the ones where you'd have some idiot calling in talking
about gay people and how it's all unnatural and all
this stuff, and this community stood up for those people.
And now fans that have been supposedly fans for a
very long time get butt hurt and grumpy whenever we
defend trans people, whenever we defend immigrants, whenever we defend
any other marginalized group. It's really bizarre. So, and there's
a major problem in the skepticism community. And I've spoken
about this for and I will again a major problem
with skepticism community of people who think that skepticism is
just disagreeing and the more popular and progress of an idea,
the more important it is to disagree with it. And
the more people you upset, the more skeptical you are.
So yeah, I would love to focus on that if
we can during this show, as we have people call
in because I'm want to put my own house in order,
you know what I mean, not just reaching out to
the community.
Speaker 3: Well, I think what people need to understand too is
while we are seeking to expose the problems between religion
and government being intertwined, rights for immigrants, rights for the LGBTQ, community,
trans people. These are all human rights, right. This is
a this we might and I'm sure that you've said
this before, and this is a popular phrase, but I
might disagree with you, but I will I will defend
your ability to maintain your position regardless of what it is.
And I'm sure that that was a really poor version
of a really famous quote who I can't properly attribute
to right now. But while we may this agree, we
fight for your ability to live in this little world
where we're all kind of stuck and just need to
get along. And in standing up to the religious power
structures that aim to keep people down, to keep people oppressed,
speaking up against everybody to have the same rights regardless
of who you are, that is very much in line
with our mission as atheists. So for somebody to be
an atheist but not question the very negative impact that
the tribal fought, the very kind of right wing perspectives
or positions that organized religion takes it just kind of
baffles me. I mean, you really need to consider what
it is that you actually stand for. If you are
okay with standing up against the oppression from the religious
powers that be, well, then you should be up for
defending everybody's rights to have, you know, the right to
life and liberty and all those other wonderful things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree whole heartedly. That's that's the biggest thing
for me about skepticism. Is it not just a way
of it. It's not just a single position on a
single issue. It's not a habit, it's not just a
single way of thinking. It's it's it's a whole way
of life if you are being skeptical, if you are
actually engaging in skeptical thinking, if you are looking at
the world around you and thinking critically. I don't understand
how it's possible to accept the world the way that
it is, you know, and certainly not to try to
make it worse.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 1: But that's just me. Also, by the way, while we're here,
bells and whistles, get your kazoos out. We survived another rapture, y'all.
I wasn't that. I think it was a couple of
weeks ago we had yet another rapture happened. And now
the dude on TikTok who said that the rapture was
going to happen in September and then it didn't, and
he came out and made a video apologizing and said
I must have gotten something wrong. So sorry, I'm never
going to talk about this again. I'm going to stay
out of the public spotlight. I'm not going to make
is now making new videos saying that it's going to
happen tomorrow. So we've got yeah, because because we were
in the wrong calendar. We were looking at this calendar
and that calendar, and clearly Jesus really met this other thing.
This dude who number one has clearly never actually studied
the history of the Bible, which which where we learned
that the rapture is a modern idea, it's not an
original concept, and more importantly, never even read the modern
versions of the Bible, where it says repeatedly that no
one will know the day or the hour of the apocalypse,
not any not angels, not man, not Jesus, but only God.
By the way, kind of a big nail in the
coffin there for the whole Jesus is God thing, but
whatever that Jesus himself says, no one.
Speaker 3: Knows when it will happen.
Speaker 1: Only the Father. I don't know, you don't know, the
angels don't know, nobody knows. And he even says that
it will be like the flood, But when when all
the people in the world were just living their lives
and then all of the sudden, one day the skies
opened up and the flood came, it'll be equally as
shocking and surprising. It very clear you will be surprised.
And yet we have yet another want to be profit
spreading this idea. And what bothers me about it the
most is not just that somebody believes a crazy thing.
It's that a lot of people believe that, and then
they in fact that they inflict that on their children.
You've got videos on TikTok of people sobbing and leaving
notes for their kids. There's a one video that went
viral and this girl sharing a note that her mother
left for her saying, you know, I hope you repent
of your sinful ways and join me in heaven and
all the that's that's traumatic and abusive. The children that
bought into it, that weren't atheists, that weren't skeptics, that
really believed it, how are they gonna deal with going
back to school the next day after having believed wholeheartedly
that they were going to flow up naked in front
of all of their classmates and die, and that was
just how their life was going to end, and they've
been preparing for that for weeks. It's just that level
of weirdness. I know religious trauma takes a lot of forms,
but holy fuck, I can't imagine what that's like for
a religious child who now has to go through whatever
that looks like for their family.
Speaker 3: It's such an inappropriate it's such an inappropriate situation to
create for a child. I remember being in my confirmation class.
I was raised Lutheran. I'm in my confirmation class. It
was only about twelve or thirteen. It was eighth grade.
For us, we do things a little later, because you know,
we're smarter and we can make our own choices. But
I really had no choice to be there. But anyway,
I'm sitting there listening to my confirmation teacher tell us
that he honestly believes that in the year two thousand
we will have the rapture, and he honestly believes and
he knows in his heart that it's going to happen.
This is also the same guy who, like told of
group of twelve year olds, my wife and I waited
to have sex until we were married. Why are you
telling me this? Why would you if I ever found
out excuse me that a man in his forties or
fifties was telling my twelve year old about the sexual
habits of he and his wife. I have a big problem.
I have a big problem. But hey, this is church,
this is religion, right, they were allowed to do that.
We don't need to worry about that. These are good
people that just pervert their power and their opportunity and
just poison kids' minds with this garbage. To do that
to a child is awful. And let me let me
just slow down before I go nuts.
Speaker 1: Okay, no, please do not slow down.
Speaker 3: I agree entirely, and I want to hear more. Yeah, so,
I mean growing up, growing up in my religion, you know,
so we were the cultural Christian family, right, So we
did like the church every every hour a week, and
we got the free coffee, and I'm sure my dad
was sitting in the pews being like, damn, the giants
are coming on in an hour. I got to get home,
you know. And you know, there was not a whole
lot of religion in our house. But when we were
in church, let me tell you that basement got real weird, right,
They separate the kids from the parents like they always do,
and they stick in the dark basement, and they tell
you all kinds of weird shit, like, you know, all
gay people go to hell. And you know, if somebody,
if somebody runs into an abortion clinic and blows it
up or or shoots it up, it's probably the will
of God, you know, because God works in mysterious ways.
All Jews go to hell and deserve to, you know,
because even though they were originally God's chosen people, then
they chose to not accept Jesus. And these are human beings,
these are people's lives. You're telling children to hate other
people and rejoice in their death and rejoice in their torture.
And that is a dangerous, dangerous society to create. I
think people who realize the folly of all this kind
of I mean, if you're a good human being should
step up. You have a responsibility to maybe voice, uh,
voice your objection to it. Somebody's got you. We got
to normalize objecting to hateful, hurtful religious doctrine, especially that
which is thrust upon our kids.
Speaker 1: And I agree entirely, No, I agree entirely, and that's that.
There's that old Douglas Adam quotes about you know, religion
is like you're not allowed to criticize this. Why not
because you're not you know, and that kind of thing.
And that really is when I was raised. I was
always taught, you know, you just don't talk about politics,
and you just don't talk about religion. That's just not
something to discuss. And what did that generate? Did that
generate a society of very polite people that are like
all really well oriented. No, it generated a society people
who don't know how to talk about these things and
don't think it's possible to bring these things up without
massively offending somebody and criticizing somebody.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: Even again, I love turning the gun back on ourselves
and saying listen. Even in our community, a lot of
people who don't understand the difference between criticizing a religion
and criticizing a religious belief and criticizing a religious practice
and criticizing all religious people or everybody in this religion
or whatever. You talk about these these ideas everything you
just said, you know, teaching your children that they are
so evil that they deserve to go to hell, and
the only way they will be like allowed the grace
of not being tortured forever is if they prostrate themselves
and genuflect enough and brag and pray and all these things.
That's child abuse. And imagine if you're a Christian watching this,
imagine teaching your children that the bogey man is real
and that there really is a monster under their bed
and it is going to eat them unless they eat
their vegetables. That would be an abusive thing to do.
Of course, the monster isn't real, but you are making
them think that it is. And if you step that
up further and said, and you freaking deserve it too,
because you're so awful of a child and you won't
eat your damn vegetables. Well, now being emotionally abusive as well,
and that is precisely what the hell story is. And
so like to be able to criticize that is super important.
But then to make sure to put the caveat the
reason why the parents are doing this is because that
shit was done to them. They are abusing their children
because they were abused, and that abuse was called love.
They were told this, this lie, this sick, manipulative mockery
of love, that God loves you so much, it'll burn
you forever if you don't love them back. That fucked
up version of love was what was thrust upon them,
and now they are passing that on their children. It
is generational trauma. It is cyclical abuse, and if you
want to not be a part of it, maybe don't
teach your children that they're sinful just for being born.
Speaker 3: You know, it's it's also part of their tribal identity.
I mean, it's kind of you know, that is the
It's the network that they create among their friends and
close family or excuse me, family and close friends, and
it's how they identify, it's how they relate to the group,
and it's just what their life is defined by. We've
got to break those chains.
Speaker 1: Yeah, hurt people, hurt people. We gotta help people out.
And that's what these shows are for. This is to
remind people that there are the best thing about these
shows is reminding people that there are options. You can
talk about this stuff. I have met so many religious
people who watch shows like this for the first time
and hear people talk negatively about religious belief for the
first time, called people criticizing God, people criticizing the Bible,
for the first time, and it's a breakthrough moment just
to be able to hear that, like, oh shit, they
said something negative about Jesus and no lightning came out
of the sky, the earth didn't swallow them up. And
worst of all, what they said made sense, like you, yep, sorry, no,
you gotta go ahead what we're saying, like you.
Speaker 3: When I came across the atheist experience, I was already
kind of close to saying, all right, I'm no longer
a Christian. But the biggest moment for me was, holy shit,
people are talking about this. I have never heard a
conversation like this.
Speaker 1: Yeah that's it, And it's not like, yeah, that's that's
I was never there, but like I have seen so
many people who have been there, and like, that's that's why,
you know why Kitchens and everybody was so effective. Like yeah,
it was a bit of an asshole sometimes, but at
the end of the day, what he was doing that
shock and awe was really really effective at shaking people
out of their funk, out of like the set place
that they were in where they are not allowed to
question these things, not allowed to think outside of this box.
People who are very used to dogmatic thinking don't know
how to think non dogmatically. And this is what I
get all the time when I talk about evolution. People
will call an all time well, so well Darwin did this,
and Darwin said that, like, okay, I don't worship Darwin.
Now what And we have to have this argument about like, okay, what,
what is evidence? And why does it matter? And it's
a lot of the same thing we talk about religion.
And I'll say, listen, the God of the Bible, first
of all, I don't think is real. But even if
he is real, certainly isn't deserving any of any kind
of worship.
Speaker 3: The God of the.
Speaker 1: Bible is an evil son of a bitch, and I
would never worship him even he was alive. And then
question is, okay, well then you worship Satan.
Speaker 3: Nope.
Speaker 1: Not worshiping is an option. And I need you to
understand that it is possible. If you're asking this question
of like, well, if you don't worship God, then who
are you worshiping? It's like saying, okay, well, if this
isn't your master, then who's slave are you? I'm not
a fucking slave and I don't want to be. I
don't know it's just that that bothers the shit out
of me when we I'm not saying I don't love it,
like It's an important part of the job and I'm
happy about it, but it blows my mind that a
lot of the time these conversations have to circulate around
how is it possible to question God? How is it
possible to not believe in this rather than just do
you believe it or not? That's a scary state of
the world.
Speaker 3: Yeah, education is important. I am a huge proponent of
and like you said, I think the most important thing
that you can that you can kind of draw from
having a good education system and access it to good
resources is the ability for the person delivering the message
to like you said, turn the gun back on ourselves.
In the line of work that you're in, peer review
is very important, right. We are constantly looking to tear
down our own arguments. As a former military intelligence analyst,
I would have to present courses of action to generals
and commanders. But before I did that, I spent a
week trying to find every single freaking hole that I
could to tear it down and make sure that it
was solid. And you know, it is okay to say
I have this idea, now let's destroy it. Now, let's
tear it completely down to make sure that the idea works.
That is healthy. That is the sign of somebody who
is mature and willing to find the truth instead of
just saying, well, who's master? Or excuse me? Whose slave
can I be? Who will be my master? Right? Instead
say who needs why do we need masters? I think
that's a more important question.
Speaker 1: That's that old quote about like what was it when
I when I feed the poor, they call me a saint?
When I asked why they're poor? They call me a communist.
It is the same thing as it's just if I,
if I this is so, if I disconnect from this,
they're like, oh, well, who are you going to obey
and worship? Then?
Speaker 2: What's going on? You know?
Speaker 1: It's strange. We've got a couple of calls on the
line here, and we'll start talking to those folks now. Again, though,
if you're out there and you are, both of our
calls on the line now are atheists. That's why we
haven't talked to them quite yet, because we usually prioritize
THEIS calls and we wanted to let THEIS have some
time to call in. But hey, if you out there
believe in a god, if you believe that we're mischaracterizing
your belief your religion, please set us straight. Please call
in and talk to us. We want to have these
conversations with you because they're important. As we've been discussing here,
we think these things are harmful. If you do not,
this is your chance. But for right now, let's talk
to Jeff calling in from Louisiana, who wants to know
why humans seek to tend to seek meaning about the
universe and where that comes from. Jeff, you are on
the Athey Experience with Forrest and Jimmy. How you doing today?
Speaker 4: What's up doing?
Speaker 5: Great?
Speaker 3: Hurry off?
Speaker 2: I'm all right cool.
Speaker 5: So, yeah, I grew up. Give a little backstory. I
grew up in religious household. I've been deconstructing for a
number of years and thanks to everyone in this whole
space that helps do that. Really appreciate it. And I
started reading the book Stapiens, and they were talking about
how humans like they think that part of why we
may have evolved to be kind of the most dominant
species on the planet is because of our educational fire
and being able to use fire and then I got
me thinking that, like, maybe it's built into being human
to be curious about things and to try and understand
how they work. And I was thinking, if we had
hundreds of thousands of years I think maybe one hundred
thousand years of evolution, not exactly shore on the timeframe there,
but like of kind of doing that, it would make
sense that we would become the.
Speaker 2: Species that is super curious about how things in the
world work.
Speaker 5: And then that might lead to questions like where did
everything come from?
Speaker 2: Why are we here?
Speaker 5: What's the meaning of purpose? Maybe that's how religions evolved.
And I was thinking that, like, I think Dawkins actually
said that the question is like what's the purpose of
the universe doesn't really make sense. It's kind of just
like it's not a real sensible question. So anyways, I'm
curious to get y'all thoughts on does that theory make sense?
Speaker 2: Do you agree with it? Do you disagree with it?
Do you have a different perspective?
Speaker 1: No, Jimmy, do you gotta go first?
Speaker 3: Sure? I can do that. Well, you put me on
the spot here a little bit, Jeff, because I'm here
with an evolutionary biologist who's studying his PhD. And you
want me to talk about you know, yeah, hey, you
want to talk. You want me to talk about the
evolution of human beings. But I will give it my
best one and let Forrest tear it down. So, first
of all, Sapiens. I did read Sapiens. I thought it
was a very well written book. A lot of good
concepts in there that I found helpful to understanding some things.
I do want to caveat that with excuse me. There
is a lot of critique about that book that maybe
the author didn't specify certain concepts well enough, maybe he
wasn't well versed enough to be able to speak intelligently
to certain things in there. So I want you to
take it with a grain of salt. That, of course,
in any situation when somebody is able to put forth
their ideas on how mankind or anything human kinds, excuse
me came about, it's susceptible to be to be torn
down a little bit. You know, I think that human
beings are and when I say they're social creatures, I
think that we tend to identify with a group because
of the old concept, the tendency, maybe the innate need
and instinctual desire to have safety in numbers, and so
we formed these little tribes, these little in groups.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: I think there was a time in human history where
the in groups were small. They were a lot less people,
there was a lot more land, and there weren't that
many things for us to do. We wandered instead of settling. Right,
So things got smaller, and then things got more or
excuse me, things things were smaller, like our scope was
smaller as it got more complex. As we grew in number,
I think the tribes grew and started to compete a
little bit more, probably a little bit more violently. And
that old saying knowledge is power, I think is applicable there.
You know, I think that humans, in conjunction with their
need to be the most powerful tribe, or the need
to have all the knowledge on a very base level
I'm talking, probably want to have all of the answers,
and when they don't have them, they make stuff up
and then they use that institution that they've created to
control the rest of the population. I think generically speaking,
that is what we can see now. There are also
very honest and very non threatening people who also want knowledge,
who want to do good for the rest of the tribe,
the rest of the species, etc. And so there is
an ambiguity there, but us being curious is probably linked
to our need to survive and our desire to just
have the power where it benefits us. And so that's
where I would top off my ability to speak to
that subject. I'll kick it over the forest.
Speaker 1: I think there's a you hit a lot of nails
on a lot of heads there, And like, what I
think is really interesting about it is when you look
at like at I'm gonna go outside of what I
know and then closer to what I know, but like
starting from the outside, because it is not my air
of expertise. As far as I remember, religions tend to
start like the earliest you know kind of things is
very much to do with like the sun and light
and warmth and protection and all these things that come
with the sun. And then you get like hunting coming in,
food and whatnot. And then you get like fertility coming in.
You know, you see all these images of the very busty,
very curvacous women being drawn and like all these things,
and you kind of have this this like systemic or
systematic growth of religious belief. But What I find more
interesting than just that timeline is looking at like how
religions compare between different types of societies. If you have
a society that's very hunter gatherer, then you're going to
have a more animistic religion. You're going to have a
religion where everything is alive and where the lines between
culture and nature aren't really there. If they are, they're
very blurry, as opposed to if you have a very
large trade based society, a very multicultural society with lots
of different people coming in and out Ancient Greece, ancient Rome, right,
You're then going to have this huge pantheon of gods
who are capricious and very human in their behaviors and
desires and emotions, and who have specific control over specific things,
but generally don't really care about the broad scope of
stuff that's not really their job. And then when you
get into really big societies, then you get what you're
talking about, where you have a monotheistic religion where God
is not just present, he is omnipresent, and he's in
your house and he's in your bedroom, and he's in
your brain, and he's making sure that you behave when
the state cannot compete with the size of the society,
and the state cannot maintain surveillance, they invent a boogie
man to be surveillance monster for them. And so like
that's kind of how we, like, as far as I remember,
as like how we start to see the progression go
in terms of like a society's grow, So like early on,
religious belief centers around the things that society needs, answers
those unanswerable questions. What's happening in the sky when there's
these flashes of light? Surely there's somebody out there doing that.
What are those pinpoints in the night of what? Maybe
those are things people being and maybe those are campfires
far away. What caused you know, this hurricane to blow
in and knock down my house? It must have been
some dude that can make hurricanes, right, Uh. And then
as you grow more and more, you are like, hey,
my entire life is this boat and catching fish. Surely
there's some dude who cares about that. And it can't
be the same dude who cares about that lady over
there with her corn, because that that dude's busy. So like,
I need my own dude, and I'm gonna name them.
This and then and then eventually it's you've got big brother,
and so like that's the way that I was taught
to see it. I want to be very clear, I'm
not a religious scholar. That's just the way that this
was taught to me. The way that I see it
as a biologist is that religion is a domestication to
over humans, Like long and short of it is, it's
just a way to keep people in line on the
large scale. But that I am also only talking about
like religion as we colloquially know it today. I don't know,
There's there's a lot of stuff there, and I hope
that answers some of your questions. Maybe, like go, I
get to you in the in the vibele what we're
talking about.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's that's interesting.
Speaker 3: I was.
Speaker 5: I appreciate what we all said.
Speaker 3: I was kind of.
Speaker 5: Thinking more along.
Speaker 6: The lines of like not just specifically religions, but also
meaning as well. Like one thing I struggle with a
lot is trying to find a meaning or purpose in
my life. And then when I was reading Sapiens, I mean,
who knows, you know, like it could have just been
the neurons that happened to fire the right way. It
made me feel a certain state.
Speaker 5: But like it makes sense. At the time, it was like,
oh yeah, I evolved from the advanta sures that are
seeking meaning in things, and like that's why I would.
Speaker 3: Be, That's why you would be. And then he exploded, there.
Speaker 1: Jeff, can you hear us? Well, I'll start to answer
the question you were ask And just to be clear,
I guess as far as menis inserted, I think we're
just very curious creatures. And and you know, where does
lightning come from? And where do hurricanes come from? Are
just as interesting questions is where do I come from?
And more importantly why? And when you are very early
on in your life, either as an individual or as
a society or as a species, you're very early on,
you don't have a lot of critical thinking faculties, and
you don't really know how logic works, and so you
do this whole post hawk ergo profter hawk thing. We
are like, all right, I prayed this way and then
the sun came out. That must have this, This must
have worked right, And maybe there are other associations that
we don't know. I met one guy really quick that
I while ago that I don't have any evidence for this.
I'm not saying this is true, but I thought it
was a really funny thing that he was talking about.
He said, you know, when you're starting a fire, you
have to get down on your hands and knees and
blow at it. And that looks a lot like praying,
and maybe that was like a thing that like and
I thought that was a really clever way of thinking
about it. Again, not saying that's true at all, no
evidence for that whatsoever. It's just interesting to think about.
Like earlier on, you know, when we're talking about where
these folks got their ideas, ask a child why they
believe in fairies whenever their toys disappear, why they believe
in a boogeyman under the bed, why they believe in
anything else? Because they don't have those critical thinking faculties.
And it took a little while for humans to develop
those things as a whole, for us to learn not
just what to think, but how to think, for us
to develop philosophy and logic and science and all this
stuff that went back and answered the old questions that
we were able to answer with dogma and faith and assumptions.
It's often said that religion was our first attempt at science,
and because it was our first, it was our worst.
So we answered those big questions, Where tornadoes come from?
Why are we here? Where does the sun go at night?
We answered all of those questions. They weren't good answers,
but they were answers because we're curious things. And when
it came to meaning, they were the same answers. Why
am I here? Why did something bad happen to me?
Why did I meet my wife? Why did I have
no children? Why did my house catch fire? Why did
I find my coin on the ground because some guy
wanted it to happen? Was the answer all the time.
Because you've been good, because I prayed properly, because I
sacrificed properly, because whatever, we found reasons to justify these
things and to find meaning for ourselves. And now we're
at a point where we're lucky enough to go back
and deconstruct from those things and find real meanings and
real answers. Anyway, with that, Jeff, it sounds like you
are dead. We will miss you. Rest in peace, but
we appreciate you spending your last breath calling into this show.
We're going to move on now to some other callers.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Do you think I missed anything there?
Speaker 3: No, I don't. I thought that was great, and I
really liked your explanation of people creating gods out of
the things that were important to them. You know, there's
a certain line of longitude where across that region the
gods where there was like very little rainfall, the gods
tended to be storm gods right and then south they
tended to worship more of the moon god that had
an impact on tides and rivers, flooding and things like that,
you know, and so the moon god was really important.
And you know the early Greeks, Poseidon is the earliest
documented god in that pantheon, even though he is not
the head of the pantheon. But they come from a
very aquatic and an island seafearing society. Makes sense why
Poseidon would be there first. And so I thought that
was wonderful. I always loved talking about the origin of
some of these really great stories, and I thank Jeff
for the questions.
Speaker 1: It was a lot of fun. And again I want
to stress, like there are people who actually study this shit.
What I'm saying is just parroting from what I've learned
from then I'm a biologist, not a religious scholar. If
lost or anything like that, I encourage you to look
up what those folks say about this stuff. But everything
that I said is just crap that I've learned from
them that I'm trying to make make sense with that.
Let's move on to our first theis scholar of the day.
We've got Anatotally calling in from New York who wants
to talk about why people turn away from religion.
Speaker 3: Ana, Totally.
Speaker 1: You are on the line with Forrest and Jimmy Junior.
Speaker 2: How are you doing? Hell sir, I'm doing great. How
are you? Gray?
Speaker 1: Never had a bad day, dude.
Speaker 2: That's great? Okay. So I basically gave like a short
sentence about how about what I'm claiming at least should
I state it?
Speaker 1: Or by all means, yeah, tell us where're calling about?
Speaker 2: Okay? Okay. So basically it goes on something along the
lines of this is that most people turn away from
religious teachings because they don't know what they're turning away from.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's what do you mean by that? They don't
know what they're turning away from.
Speaker 2: They have a different definition for what they feel certain
things in the Bible are right, and then they don't
agree when somebody tells them that that's the definition of something, right,
that's what's written in the Bible, they don't they don't
agree to that, but yet that's what it says in
the Bible. So I don't understand how they could say
that that's not the definition of it.
Speaker 3: It sounds like you're giving me, like how I see it.
Speaker 1: Sounds like you're giving me some really like broad statements here,
and I'm trying to figure out like what the actual specifically,
because like what in my experience, people turn away from
religion when they realize that there's no good reason to
believe in this God and that the God isn't worth
worshiping in the first place. And the deconstruction that I
see most often is that people go out looking for
reasons to believe in this God and they can't find any,
and they find lots of reasons not to, so they
stop and then they kind of have like a pantheistic
vibe where it's like, well, there's some spiritual thing going
on here, everything's God, everything's connected, whatever, and then they
slowly deconstruct from that. But if you're talking about religion,
just in terms of use you're saying the Bible. You
only need to read the Bible to know why you
should not believe in the Bible, and you only need
to think about the implications of the God of the
Bible to know why you shouldn't worship that God either.
Speaker 2: Okay, can I can? I I guess state my understanding
of you know, our God, Christian God, right, because I
went through this too, like I was like, I was religious,
I was atheist that I came back to religion. So
you know, I'm not saying I don't understand why people leave, right,
I fully do understand. I wasn't like, oh I wanted
to be a sinner and I left. You know, it wasn't.
I just didn't. I just never heard it said in
such a way that made sense to me, Like like
nobody ever was able to put religion and let's say,
evolution together for me in a way where I was like, yep,
that makes sense.
Speaker 1: So let me just ask you a question really quickly,
a couple of questions, just to understand because you're going
to talk about your Christian belief, your belief in the
Christian God really quickly. Do you believe that the Bible
is true? Okay, do you believe.
Speaker 3: That it is true?
Speaker 2: I think when I think, I'm asking questions.
Speaker 1: Do you believe do you believe that the Bible as
a book, as a story, as a history of the universe.
Do you believe that the Bible is literally one hundred
percent true every word is accurate or do you think
that it's something that needs to be interpreted and taken
in context. And it's been changed and altered and annotated
throughout history, and so some of it's not right, some
of it is, and you kind of have to vibe
with certain parts of it. Which which of those do
you believe?
Speaker 2: Okay, I guess it would be a combination of those things.
So I think every single story is in the Bible
is true tru like not a physical truth like you're
a scientist would say is true, right, not like, Oh,
there was a guy who was the name was Noah,
you know, and he walked around and did all these things, right,
But it's it's kind of like the same way that
a very good hero is represented in a story is
the way Noah was represented at the time, and that
it was a different time too, So that's why people
were like, oh, why are all these horrible things? Was
because society did all these horrible things. They're like all
the slavery in the Bible. Yeah, there were slavery, and
there was slavery everywhere. Then we don't move the way.
Speaker 1: So my follow up question then, my follow up question
then anatotally is do you believe that the God character
in the Bible is an accurate representation of who and
what God actually.
Speaker 2: Is phys the coal world that we live in. Like
I think when I spoke to somebody earlier, it was
probably one of the people on the team, They said physics.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: They were like, physics what I'm saying? And it was like,
I don't disagree with that. I guess yeah, it would be
physical to a physical world everywhere, So physics anatotally.
Speaker 3: That was on that was on Talk Evan. You called
in to Talk even today and you said that God
was a mixture of sociology and physics, if I'm not mistaken.
You were talking to Kelly and Thinker.
Speaker 2: Well no, well they corrected me and said physics. So
I'm saying physics and I was like, sure, I agree,
I didn't say physics. State said that that's what I'm saying.
And I was like, all right, it's not far away
enough from me to disagree to that. Yeah, physically, what
not far away enough from.
Speaker 3: How does that?
Speaker 1: How does that answer the question that I asked.
Speaker 2: The physical world when I said, my idea of God
the Father is the physical world, right with social structure
on top of it. That's how it's described, and that's
how it really is described in the Torah.
Speaker 1: In this case, right, what I asked you, I'm going
to just repeat my question. Do you think that the
God character in the Bible is an accurate representation of
what God actually is and who God actually is?
Speaker 2: Okay? Yeah, it's a harsh reality that we live in.
Speaker 1: Okay, So the God character of the Bible, Just to
be clear, the God character in the Bible is a
thinking agent, someone who has authority and has abilities that
are beyond the scope of of you know, what we
presume is the natural world, who can do great and
powerful things, and you have emotions and the mind, and
makes decisions based on whatever's going on in his emotions
in mind. Where we're not just talking about the laws
of the universe here like Spinoza's God, I'm asking you
specifically about the God character in the Bible, the one
who speaks, the one who acts, the one who makes decisions.
That character you think is an accurate representation of who
and what God really is? That's what I'm asking.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, those are two well those those could be
that could be misinterpreted by me, and I could be like, yes,
I think, but.
Speaker 1: I'm asking what you think. I'm not asking you what
you've interpreted. I'm just asking you what you believe.
Speaker 2: You know why I could misinterpret your question, is what
I'm saying.
Speaker 1: I don't know how I could possibly make it more clear.
Do you want me to restate it in a better way?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah I could. I could also say that, yes,
it's a good interpretation of what God really is. Yes,
that's true, right, But also it not be a fact
because when like a physical fact, like you think of
it as a scientist. And that's what I'm saying. What
I'm saying is that when you are about to pursue
something and it could work out or not work out,
what makes it work out? And what do you need
to do for in order? Like what sacrifice do you
have to make in order?
Speaker 3: I have no idea what you're talking about.
Speaker 1: I say, I'm so lost is Yeah, so it's let's
let's just take at face value what I think you're saying.
What I am tell me if I'm wrong, I'm trying
not to misrepresent you anatotally. What it sounds like you're
saying is that the character of God in the Bible
is an accurate representation of who God is, but is
it necessarily an accurate representation of like how God actually
has been. It's metaphorical or allegorical details out like the
actual character of God hypothetically, but not necessarily literally. It's
as if I were to say, like like Abraham Lincoln
vampire Hunter the book, right, not really what abra Ham
Lincoln actually did, but the character in the book seems
to be a good representation of who Abraham Lincoln was
as a person. That's that's what we're talking about, right,
We're talking about this. Is that a good analogy of
what you're talking about.
Speaker 2: In a sort of but not completely true fuck?
Speaker 4: Okay, okay, So where I will agree, well, I will
agree it's that what you're saying is basically, what you're
saying is that since it's not a perfect representation, right,
then it can't be really got because it's you that
I agree.
Speaker 1: That's not what I'm saying. That's not what I'm saying
at all. Can you can you actually, just really quick, anatotally, anatotally,
can you please just repeat the question that I have
been asking you back to me.
Speaker 2: Yes, is the God in the Bible actually the real God?
I guess the physical God a real person.
Speaker 1: You're asking No, Okay, No, that is not what I'm
asking you at all. Okay, So I'm going to try again,
and I'm going to ask you the same question again,
and I'm going to try to phrase it a way
that maybe we can get across here. So the if
I have a book, like a historical fiction book, if
I have a book about Theodore Roosevelt, say what you
said earlier, because I said it, because I said it
four times, and you clearly didn't get it. So I'm
just going to give you a different way of saying
the exact same thing. So, if I have a book
of historical fiction that talks about Theodore Roosevelt going to
the moon, right, if the character in the book of
Theodore Roosevelt acts the way that Theodore Roosevelt actually would
have acted in that situation, then I can say this
is a good representation of Theodore Roosevelt as a person.
Not necessarily do I agree that he actually went to
the fucking move right, That's what I think you are
driving at. Yes, that's what I think you're driving at.
Speaker 3: With God?
Speaker 1: Is that the character of God in the Bible, the
way God has described the actions that God takes, the
decisions God makes, those all sound like things that God
would actually do. They are right up the alley of
who God actually is as a person. That doesn't necessarily
mean that He actually ever did those things. Is that
what you are saying? Yes, okay, so then if the
then we can say exactly the same thing that I
would be saying. You brought up slavery a minute ago.
Normally I would point out that the God of the
Bible commands slavery. In the Bible, God explains not just
that slavery is allowed, he gives instructions on how to
do it. So what I can say to you in
this situation is, even if that didn't happen, if that
is an accurate representation of what God would have done
in that scenario, he's still an evil piece of shit.
Speaker 2: Well, the thing is that you've got to understand that
it's from the perspective of a person living at the time. Right,
So at the time.
Speaker 3: What we're not existed, right, we're not because he is now.
Speaker 1: So, yeah, slavery exists now and it's still wrong. At
the time Anatoly at the time, slavery was wrong, and
God in the Bible again not saying this had to happen,
not saying this did happen. But the God character in
the Bible found the time to make very strict rules
about disobeying your parents, about eating shellfish, about trimming your beard,
about planting crops, about wearing specific garments, about cutting your hair.
He burned two people alive for putting the wrong incense
in an incense burner. The God of the Bible is
very clear and very able to take strict actions to
change societies in a massive way. But instead of stopping slavery,
he made it happen more. He didn't just say it
was bad, he said do it.
Speaker 5: He didn't make it, so.
Speaker 2: He didn't make it happen more.
Speaker 3: He commanded it rules.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he didn't command it. What he did was he
gave specific rules for the society that was there at
the time.
Speaker 3: He commanded it, though, didn't he not tell Moses to
take the Midianite girls for themselves, all the ones that
didn't know a man. Isn't that slavery?
Speaker 1: That sex slavery?
Speaker 3: And I think he said take the women into slavery, right,
murder the men, take the women into slavery. So that
sounds like a command.
Speaker 2: It might have been a command for that particular story, right.
Speaker 3: Okay, So then what you just said is that God
did not command it. Now you say God commanded it
maybe for that story.
Speaker 1: What I can literally read this part of your slaves,
your male slaves and your female slaves, which you shall have,
not may shall have, is what my version says. They
shall be of the heathen around you. From them you
shall buy male and female slaves. And it goes on
to say that they are your property, that you can
pass them down to your children. He goes on to
explain how to beat them. He goes on to give
different rules for Hebrew slaves, that they can only be
tricked into lifelong slavery, and here's how to do it.
Like this, God is evil, no matter what that evil.
Speaker 2: God or society. Right, I don't know if it's the
structure because it's two things there, Remember my God.
Speaker 3: No it's not.
Speaker 1: This is a story about a character and the character is.
Speaker 3: Doing a thing saying my God.
Speaker 2: Right, what I said is my God is the structure
of reality and social order on top of it.
Speaker 1: You also said that the character of God in the
Bible is an accurate representation of the God that you
believe in. So if you're saying that your God is
just the structure of society, then that isn't an active
thinking agent that makes decisions and has control over the world.
That's just an evolutionary process involving flawed humans. And that's
a totally different thing than what you said a minute ago.
Speaker 2: No, no, it's not. I said the same thing I'm
saying as God is both of those things. And in
that society there was slavery at the time, and the
story didn't end there. Right, that's that's not the last
thing it's said, right, It was like this is how
you own play.
Speaker 3: It is the end when there's God in the Bible.
But yeah, it does atomatic question, yes, yeah, like where
where does God? Where does Jesus give the command to
end slavery?
Speaker 2: So I'm sorry, where does Jesus give the command to
end slavery.
Speaker 3: God or Jesus, whoever right the gods that you worship.
You said, the story doesn't end there, it goes on.
So where then does it end? Where does God fix
that problem and say no more slavery?
Speaker 2: Well, he says lots of things inside the book that
eventually led to us ending slavery.
Speaker 3: No, no, that's not true.
Speaker 1: Yes, by the end of the book there is still slavery,
and then the book was used to justify slavery for
long after that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know right. What I'm saying is that it
was also the beginning of our moral social structure. Right,
it was not moral social structure. Was It was not?
Speaker 1: No, I'm sorry, and it totally. The Bible was absolutely
not the beginning of moral social structure. I find it
absolutely ridiculous that you think that human beings lived for
hundreds of thousands of years and then suddenly, two thousand
years ago, somewhere in Palestine, some guy got crucified and
now we all have morals like that. That's simply not reasonable.
Speaker 3: Well, I have a question anatotally. So let's just let's
let's take a look at the Bible a little bit deeper.
So do you believe that the Ten Commandments were a
moral structure.
Speaker 2: Absolutely?
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well they came before Exodus, right, They came before
the part where where God says, you know, there shall
be no or there shall be slavery. So I mean
that right there, Well, they came in Exodus, but I
mean that story comes comes prior to the Exodus twenty
one the slavery, so I mean right there.
Speaker 1: Versus I was reading, was even Leviticus as well.
Speaker 3: Okay, well there you go, so multiple multiple spots where
God is commanding slavery, never once says that there shouldn't
be slavery. But even then, there are baselines for the
development of human morality, going back even to the beginning
of Genesis where they eat from the Tree of Knowledge, right,
and so now they know the difference between right and
wrong and they are like God, et cetera. That, even
by your logic, shows that morality didn't just wait until
you know, the end, until Jesus was crucified or whatever
it is you're talking about. You know, the thing I
have a problem with, though, the thing I'm really hung
up on, is that you said that the Bible is
the truth when you first called in and then you
said the Bible is merely an accurate representation of God,
but not entirely. Which one is it? And how can
it be both? And and to caveat on that as well,
or to add on that, you saying, well God, you know,
God is the God of the Bible, but also social structure.
You're casting such a wide net that nothing that we
say can be an answer. You know, we're always going
to be wrong because you'll have some way of reinterpreting it.
Why don't you just like forgive me, grow the balls
to have an answer, have a definitive answer, and just
tell us what it is you believe, and let's give
up all this. You know, these hoops and hurdles that
we have to jump over and through.
Speaker 2: It's not a hope. What I said was that that
was the old Jewish God. There's there's different gods in
the Bible. Would you agree with that if you read it?
In fact, the certain stories are two separate stories of
two different cultures that team together. I'm pretty sure they're
completely differently.
Speaker 1: But when they agree that the God of the Bible
is interpreted and totally is represented in totally different ways,
and I agree that the Bible is in no way
univocal about God, who God is, what God can do,
anything like that. So yes, a plain reading of the
Bible would indicate that this God character is either several
different people, or there are several different Gods at the
same time, or that the person writing the Bible.
Speaker 3: Is drunk either one.
Speaker 2: There's three axioms that we have. Three we learned three
things that our ancestors gave to us, right, and that's
that there's social structure. That means, well, there's social structure.
Then there's a structure of reality. Then there's the truth
inside of it. Right, saying it out loud is Jesus, right,
that would be Jesus, the truth of Jesus. Jesus the truth.
So treak is important because it's Jesus. Saying out loud
is important because that's godly right. And then there's the
Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit is the thing inside
of you that can learn. It's a piece that inside
of you that can die so that you're born in
you and that's learning. That's like if if half my character,
like if half my life right, I'm like a terrible
drug addict or an alcoholic. I'm an alcoholic what do
they say just to admit you have a problem and
I have to like go of that part of my character,
but it's half my life. You think that's going to
be easy.
Speaker 3: I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't think anything that you just said actually aligns
with any kind of like moral system common sense.
Speaker 2: I'll talk to a priest, and let's tell you exactly
the same thing.
Speaker 3: We don't want to talk to a priest. I've spent
enough time talking a clergy. I've been told all kinds
of weird and hateful shit. If you were listening to
the beginning of the show some of the things that
I've been told by religious leaders as a child, some
of the hate that I was raised with, and what
which was justified by the Bible, you would understand whether
there's no way that I would ever go to a
priest or, a pastor, or a clergy member of any
kind and get any kind of wisdom, Because the problem
with your book, right is that and I understand that
it's a compilation of different books, but the Bible in
general is that the supernatural claims are not corroborated with
any other source. So a pastor, or, a priest or,
a clergy member being an expert in the claims about
God right, is only an expert in what the Bible
says and not anything else that can corroborate it, so
they really have no expertise. It's kind of an oxymoron
to be a biblical expert if you use it as
a justification for supernatural claims. To be a biblical expert
and to use it as a way to talk about
culture of the ancient earies or talk about the formation
of Western society is a little bit different. What you're
saying these claims. Well, I don't even know if I
should say what you're saying, because I don't really know
what you're saying, because what is that right, Yeah, you're
jumping all over the place, and you're not giving us
anything definitive, and we're just kind of, you know, like
I said, we're always going to be wrong because you're
always going to have some explanation instead of giving us
a definition of this concrete and then admitting when it
gets torn down. You are trying to avoid that at
every turn and at all costs, and instead are rambling
all over the map. And I just don't know how
to take you.
Speaker 1: It is genuinely three it's genuinely bizarre, anatotally because like
I've asked you, like at the beginning of this call,
I had to ask you the same really I think
basic question like five or six different times in two
or three different ways, just to get a halfway go
hear an answer out of you. And by the way,
I don't know if the audience can hear it, but
I can hear it almost every single time we start
answering one of your questions or address them and you
say you keep talking for most of the time that
we are talking. I hear it every time. That tells
me why you're not understanding half of the shit we're saying.
And when you do give an answer, it's never direct,
it's never what we're actually asking of you. It's some
weird roundabout thing. I set a second ago that I
think it's ridiculous to say that all us humans evolved
in Africa two hundred thousand years ago and needed to
wait one hundred and ninety eight thousand years for some
blood sacrifice to be able to be moral, And then
you gave me this weird run around of like, well,
there's these things that we're talking about, the Bible and
number one is Jesus, and you have to have this
because it's Jesus likes. And I can hear you talking
right now. That's why you're not hearing it. I can
hear you in the background, still fucking talking to yourself.
I'm trying to explain to you that what you're saying
doesn't make any sense. I just want a straight answer
to a straight question, like let me ask you this.
Do you agree that morality, that morals, that ethics, all
these things are an evolved trait. Do you agree with that?
Speaker 2: Yes? Absolutely? Why?
Speaker 3: Okay, great?
Speaker 1: Then we don't need we don't need some fucking desert
war god to sacrifice himself to himself to teach us
how to be moral.
Speaker 2: Do we have to understand morality to be there?
Speaker 1: We are evolved with it. We are evolved with morality,
So we are we are born with morality, and then
as we integrate into society, as our society grows, we
reason it out and develop more better moral systems. And
so everybody's morality is based on that evolutionary framework, coupled
with their intuitions based on their society, what their cultural
norms teach them.
Speaker 2: I would just say that I don't think we're born
with morality. I think it took a very long time
to they just it and understand it and write about
it over time.
Speaker 1: Okay, you think you don't. You don't think we're born
with morality. So you think that every baby is just
born a moral or immore.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that morality has learned because it's on
top of us, like God.
Speaker 1: Okay, then how do you explain then, how do you
explain the fact that non human animals also exhibit moral.
Speaker 2: Behavior because it's intact of us.
Speaker 1: What does that mean we live?
Speaker 2: It's a system we lived. I would say it's.
Speaker 1: God, but you would be like, no, what system do
dogs live under that is somehow God that causes them
to make moral decisions? Or rats or monkeys or any
of the other animals that we have seen proto morality?
Speaker 2: In generally speaking, the more that they do it as
a society, the better they become. They work together and
they start.
Speaker 3: Are you aware of what I asked you?
Speaker 1: That's not an answer to the question I asked you.
Speaker 3: I wonder if he heard your opening, because there is
a whole lot of shit happening out there in the
world that in the societies that we live under and
people are being genocided, destroyed. I mean, for us, name
three or four key genocides happening around the world, and
we all live under this structure. And you're saying that
the more we practice morality in this society, the better
we get at it. Yet I would say that we
are seeing killings on a scale that we haven't seen
probably since the nineteen fifties. And so that's alarming to
me that you think your God is in charge of
a system where morality is the result. Why would he
be so concerned with a dog, let's saying, pulling another
dog out of a river to prevent it from drowning
and give that as evidence instead of stopping a major genocide.
Why is the society that is your God choosing that
option over the other.
Speaker 2: What I'm saying is, I guess that's free will. I
don't know. If he could just show us that there
would be no free will. If you just knew what
was right all the time and you were actually born
with morality, I would say you have no free will
because you're just programmed to like you're like AI robot.
Speaker 1: So just to be clear, just to be clear, when
mice and rats exhibit proto morality and laboratory settings, we
can say that that's God. But when genocide happens in
Gaza and you in Sudan, in Congo, in China, now
that's just free will.
Speaker 2: I said. No, when that happens in a lab setting, right,
that's them understanding, right, that there's something there that if
they act this way, things will be good.
Speaker 1: And that what are you the mice or the scientists?
So you think so the mice. You're telling me that
the mice are able to comprehend that if they save
their their their cage mate from a painful situation, that
eventually down the line, mouse society will improve in some.
Speaker 2: Way, not the way that you do, if that's for
ture asking.
Speaker 1: But yes, And meanwhile, the humans who are currently committing genocide,
they don't understand.
Speaker 2: That, No, they don't.
Speaker 1: They don't, Okay, So what's the difference then, what's the
difference between if someone is born without morals and someone
and what is the thing that makes someone understand that
here are the moral actions I need to take in
order to not be a genocidal maniac? What exactly is that?
Speaker 2: I mean, that's a very complicated question. The problem with
genocidal maniac is what they do is they fall in
love with a theory, right, and it makes perfect sense
to them. And even though it doesn't sit on reality, right,
the jerry mander reality into THEE theory.
Speaker 1: That's like, so, now, if that's the case, if that's
the case, if the only difference between an immoral or
an AMORL pardon me, if an AMORL baby can grow
up to be the most helpful, wonderful person in the
world or can turn into the most evil, vile son
of a bitch in the world. Right, And it's totally
about what theories they subscribe to and all this stuff.
Please explain how the insular cortex works and why it's there.
Speaker 3: Do I have to.
Speaker 2: Explain that in order to say, I mean I could
find out you want me to find out.
Speaker 1: I can tell you. The insular cortex is a part
of your brain, which, among other things, handles moral thinking.
Hand It combines when you think of nasty, rotten, disgusting food,
and it makes you feel sick to your stomach. It
is the exact same part of your brain that does
that that also makes you sick to your stomach when
you see horrible, rotten, nasty behavior. The reason why we
say this rapist, this pedophile, this murderer, this whatever, This
person turns my stomach, this person leaves a bad taste
in my mouth, whatever, is because it's the same part
of your brain that does both. So was one of
the reasons why we say morality is an evolved thing.
The same part of your brain that handles visceral discussed
handles moral discuss This is something that evolution has done
over the course of a long ass period of time,
and it's clearly a conserved trait that we see around
a lot of mammals. So I'm asking you, why do
you have a dedicated part of your brain that, without
you trying, is able to hand the moral thinking, without
a societal norm behind it is able to understand injustice
and undue harm and harm to children, all this other shit.
This part of your brain that you are just born with,
Why is that there? And how does it work? If
the only difference between Hitler and Ray Charles is how
they were raised and what theories they subscribed to.
Speaker 2: You know that Hitler sound Jew's disgusting.
Speaker 3: Are you going to answer a single fucking question on
this phone call? Like, what are you doing, dude.
Speaker 2: What I'm saying is that's not the part of your
brain that's responsible for the reality. Because Hitler soundews disgusting.
You don't kill something that way that you actually fear.
Speaker 1: You fear like, yeah, we're gonna talk. That's that's how
dehumanization works. It also isn't an answer to my question.
Speaker 2: It is you said that that's the part of your
brain that's responsible for morality. I'm telling you it's not
because that part of the brain was over stimulated in
Hitler when he saw Jew, So where's the morality?
Speaker 1: What you're describing is how dehumanization works, because this is
the same part of the brain that handles disgust and
all a visceral and moral discussed you there are actually
there you can learn about this shit. That's how when
we dehumanize people, and we used dehumanizing language like calling
people cockroaches, vermin rats, subhumans, whatever. When we use that
kind of language that often precedes genocide, the same part
of your brain lights up when you see this person
and yes, you are disgusted by them. This part of
your brain can be hijacked to make you into an
evil person while thinking that you're doing something good that
I'm trying to just get you. Do you need me
to fucking give you the answer that I'm going for
to just make it easier.
Speaker 2: No, I told you my answer. I disagree with you.
I would say that's the more part of your mind, right.
Speaker 1: Okay, cool, neuroscience is wrong. Great. I was trying to
actually play to what you were saying and give you
a reason to make this make half of sense. But like,
clearly we're not going to do that.
Speaker 2: It's not true. What I'm saying is it's the part
of the brain that lived up in Hitler. Was the
part of your brain you call them more part of
the brain, and it was over stimulated. It's something wrong
part of the brain.
Speaker 1: It's not what I said. I didn't say it was
the moral part of your brain. I said it was
a part of the brain that is, in part, among
other things, handles some moral thinking.
Speaker 2: Okay, cool.
Speaker 1: And I was trying like hell to give you something
that made fucking sense even a little bit, so we
can actually have something to debate about and somebody to
talk about, rather than just talking about whatever weird fucking
idea you've woken up with today. Because I still don't
even fundamentally know whether the God you believe in is
a physical guy or not. You have yet to answer
any straightforward question.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I want to get back to that, you know,
because adatotly you've hijacked this conversation and just kind of
thrown all kinds of different land mines in it. And
I want to ask you one thing. Okay, so you
brought up you brought up the two different accounts of Genesis, right,
they're different? Chapter one chapter two? Okay, So Chapter one
is God and he exists outside of the garden to bed, right,
he is this, this person that or this being I
should say that is clearly superior in every way to
human beings. Chapter two, however, God is as he's creating
the garden of Eden, is physically walking around in the garden,
and is a distinguishable human like creature. Okay, which one
is accurate?
Speaker 2: I heard? Would people say about what this means? But
if you would like, I could explain him.
Speaker 1: I just want you to answer, like he literally what
what do you think it means? When he asked you
a question? Do you think he didn't want you to
explain the answer.
Speaker 2: Okay, So you want me to explain with walking on
God because it's.
Speaker 3: Oh no, I don't want you to god what God means?
Speaker 1: What again? I'm going to ask you again anatotally what
question did Jimmy Junior?
Speaker 3: Just ask you?
Speaker 1: What question were you asked? Just repeat it back?
Speaker 2: Really okay? He asked me a really warm question. If
I were to ask you a question that has fucking
dirty words in it.
Speaker 6: It wasn't wrong.
Speaker 3: And you you are accusing of not reading the Bible?
What are you talking about? Engage?
Speaker 1: Engage your critical faculties here, take the information that was
given to you and summarize it in your own words.
Tell me what question he asked you?
Speaker 2: He basically said that there's two different gods. There's a
God that's outside of reality and then there's a God
that's walking in the garden. Do I believe that they're
the same God? I think right?
Speaker 3: Nope?
Speaker 1: Once again nope. He asked you, which one do you
think is real? Because they cannot be both, and I
think both of them? Why then then you should justify
that if he said which one is real? You could
have said both, and here's why, but you didn't. You
made up another.
Speaker 3: Question question earlier, and you.
Speaker 1: Are still talking. While I'm explaining it to you, I
already answered this.
Speaker 2: What I'm saying is, I don't believe in an actual
place that's all fucking heaven right that we were all
walking in.
Speaker 1: I believe that we have No one asked you about
heaven first first time I've heard that word today.
Speaker 2: I think that he's saying that working with you said
there's two different gods in the Bible, and he was
walking in heaven right with God.
Speaker 3: What's not I said, Adam, Listen, listen, listen, all right.
Chapter one, Genesis God is creating life from outside of
the garden of Eden. Chapter two, Genesis God is creating
life while he is walking around inside the garden of Eden.
Which account is accurate?
Speaker 2: Are you asking me if you're outside of something, can
you walk into it? Or what's the what's the question?
Speaker 1: And totally I we are at the end of the show.
You fundamentally lack the ability to like hear someone and
interpret what they are saying and answer a fucking question.
It's it's genuinely remarkable that someone can say something to
you simply, plainly and directly, and you will make up
another thing that you think they said and then answer
that it's it's fucking wild. I am actually genuinely encouraging
you to really just fucking try baby books about reading
comprehension and listening comprehension, and how to understand when someone
says something to you, they're saying the thing that they said,
not whatever the fuck you wanted them to say, not
whatever the fuck you think they said. Whatever they said
is the thing they said. That shouldn't be a hard concept.
I encourage you to practice with it. But then, for now,
it's four minutes.
Speaker 4: Till the end of the show.
Speaker 1: I think is good for us to wrap up. Jimmy Junior,
what do you think you want to continue beating your
head against this particular brick wall.
Speaker 3: No, I think once you're done with the baby books,
maybe you should read the Bible after that.
Speaker 1: That'd be a great place to start. Anyway, have an
awesome rest of your day anatotally, and again, what I
just said is have an awesome rest of your day.
That means have an awesome rest of your day. And
whatever the fuck you think I meant by that, who knows,
have a good day now, by bye, good gravy dude.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: I hope at least like maybe he won't admit it outwardly,
but I hope in some way he's questioning something about
what he already believes. Maybe his preconceived notions have been
challenged just enough that he's going to do some investigation
and just won't admit it to us, And I'm fine
with it.
Speaker 1: I don't think, and I mean this sincerely, I don't
think he knows what just happened. I don't think that
he understands the conversation that we just had in any respect.
I was trying to give him ammunition against us, and
I couldn't give him. I couldn't get a solid argument
out of him. I couldn't get a single sentence just
wild dude. To the person in chat who says, can
a car house come from nothing? The show is creative
or the world's created about intelligent being. You've had an
hour and a half to call in. We've been here
waiting for your call, and instead you got that guy
who doesn't know what questions are. So sorry, I guess
your God will be unheard of for yet another week.
Jimmy Junior, my dude, do you have anything else before
we proceed to wrap up the show?
Speaker 3: Ooh, does wrapping up the show include super chats because
we got a bunch.
Speaker 1: A flip dude, Yes, it actually does. Yeah, let's do that.
Speaker 3: Nice. You want me to go? You got it.
Speaker 1: I've got some pulled up you you go first, I'll
do the next one.
Speaker 3: All right. Science Lover sent a sticker of a fox
hugging a heart and I love that, and he gave
us three hundred and forty nine Thai bot Well hello
to our friends in Thailand.
Speaker 1: Hell, yeah, then we got is it? Nick s doc
who sent a lemon hugging a lime fuck? Yeah, and
nine in good old American freedom dollars. Thank you very
much for that. I sincerely appreciate it now.
Speaker 3: Jason Jones twenty bucks, Jimmy a military intelligence analyst. They
called them ninety eight Charlie's when I was a ninety
eight golf Russian linguist. Hashtag no gods nice. I'm glad
we have something in common, and thank you for the
toty dollars.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I said this or not, but
I did drop a link and chat to a paper
about morality in the brain and have some cool information
about the insular cortex in there. So checked out ouf
you're interested in that there were, or if you don't
want to believe, like anatoty that just neuroscience is because
Hitler existed or whatever, then we've got Duke of Shostka
neat Uh sent five European money to say the logos
is an ingredient of rational observations. More wisdom, tweet wisdom,
the wisdom of Peterson. What the fuck is any of that?
Speaker 3: Hey, Duke of Shaska coming back with five more euros?
Are we a joke to you? A German tribe who
invented the individualistic part of Western identity? Also hope he's
lactose intolerance smiley face.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 3: I don't know if I'm tracking on that one.
Speaker 1: I think he's talking about like, he's talking about how
society evolves and develops, this morality, all this stuff, and
that's all God. And here's this one Germanic tribe that
he's referencing. And also I want to throw out there
just like and not not to nitpick what this person
is saying. I think that's very but like, just as
from an anthropological perspective, individualism isn't even the only option. And
this this was wild to me, During my first Masters
I was in an archaeolotic theory class, and we're talking
about individualism and how it developed and how other societies
aren't individualistic. And as an American, individualism has been pushed
upon me as a value and an ideal so much
I genuinely didn't know that that was an option to
not do Thatdividualism is a thing where instead of saying
I am my own person and I represent my own
ideas and I'm a self made whatever adividualistic society sees
themselves as an extension of their community, I am here
as an extension, as the result of my family and
my friends and my neighbors and all the things and
the society building up for a long time leads to
me as the spearhead, not as the standalone person. And
it's a totally different way of looking at yourself. And
I would argue that that kind of thinking, in some
ways is a lot better and more moral and so like.
Even even what like the framework that Anatolely was coming
at this with, I think was just very fucking narrow
minded and ethnocentric. But I can only try to extrapolate
from the fucking nonsense he was saying I don't even
know if that's accurate, because I still don't know what
the fuck he believed, and I don't think he did either.
Speaker 2: Was weird.
Speaker 3: First time I've ever heard that God is society that
is on top of us.
Speaker 1: It would be tough also on top of mice.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and yeah and all other mammals. Right, I mean,
I don't know what.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's not let's do genocide. Robert Roger Wenzel sent
ten dollars. Thank you for us for your introductory remarks.
Thank you for listening to them.
Speaker 3: Nice nice Jason Jones again another dollar? All right, I
appreciate that. And then Science Lover is going to close
it out, but I think he's talking to me here.
I was a ninety eight golf check small world. Oh,
and I guess he just finished his career off in
Thailand maybe and is now giving us another three hundred
and forty nine taibots. So appreciate all the love.
Speaker 1: That's very cool. Before we wrap up, I just want
to remind everybody please like the video and subscribe to
the channel, enable notifications, and comment below on your favorite
caller of the day. We only have the two and
if you say anatolely, I'll never do this show again.
We've got another way to support us is by sending
super chats. You know we've read all of them today,
So next show, next time you see us on screen,
please send you super chats and let us read those
as well. Join our weekly watch parties at the Free
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not least, we want to give a big shout out
to the crew who pull this show together and make
this whole thing happen. You guys are absolutely fantastic and
we quite literally it would not be here without you,
So thank you very much for being here. It's really
cool to have all of you and very cool to
pull this together. With that, that's the end of the show. Everybody,
Jimmy Junior, any words, close us out, anything to send
us off.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I just want to echo what you said,
FIUs believers. You just let this guy represent you for
the last hour, So do better, do better and challenge us,
and you know we're not here to attack you. We
want to have a good conversation, so give us a
call next time.
Speaker 1: And the man on the middle of the screen with
his entire face in the middle of the camera, that's
Kelly Laughlin. Thank you so much for being our backup
host and for hanging out in the wings.
Speaker 3: I appreciate it. Thanks a lot. I appreciate it.
Speaker 7: You know, I've been talking to it totally, like for
for four days now, I think on the internet. He
has not answered a single question.
Speaker 3: It's always.
Speaker 7: It's every time you ask him something that you can't answer,
he just pivots to a different topic. So, I mean,
it's so really really frustrating, and I just want to
point out too, like one of one of the things
that he told me during talk Heathen for us, and
I was hoping it was going to get brought up here,
was that nobody, absolutely nobody understands evolution. And I was
hoping he was going to say that to you because
you understanding what he does.
Speaker 1: Call back in next time I'm hosting and just define
the word evolution for him. It'll be a lot of fun.
Speaker 7: He also told me that the Toro was the first
book of the Bible, so that goes to show you
what actually knows about the Bible naturally. Yes, And Jimmy,
can you do me a favor? Can you can you
tell your wife I said congratulations?
Speaker 3: Oh hell yeah, thank you. She's gonna love hearing from you.
And rely Forrest. If I was you, I'd be sitting
right there. Truth very truth.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Thanks so much everybody for tuning in. Thank you
to our producers making this show possible. Thank you to
our mods and chat for keeping things clean there. Thanks
to the people in Chat, even the ones that sucked
and didn't called in. Thanks to all our callers that sucked,
even the ones that made us want to put a
freaking brick through our brains. Thank you for watching, have
an awesome rest of your day, and never stopped learning.
Free Palestine.
Speaker 3: Bye bye, Glad, start stop around.
Speaker 6: You got it.
Speaker 3: Welcome Ellen.
Speaker 1: Watch Talkie Than live Sundays at one pm Central. Visit
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call into the show at five one two nine nine
one nine two four two, or connect to the show
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