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Speaker 1: Normally, at the start of a show, i'd give some

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scathing screed against religion to encourage people to call in

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and talk about their gods. But there have been some

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pretty heavy things in the news lately. And while this

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is a nonprofit organization, and so I, as a volunteer,

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am not allowed to name any specific politician or political

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party or whatever, I'd like to take this moment and

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this opportunity to talk to the people who have perhaps

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found themselves as affected as I have been by the

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state of the world and the state of the country lately.

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Learned helplessness is the term for the passive surrender of

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control when repeated failure begins to be perceived as inevitable.

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It's what happens when attempt after attempt after attempt produces

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nothing but negative outcomes and causes one to start to

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believe that those negative outcomes are completely out of their control.

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It's an omenon that's been experimentally demonstrated several times, like

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in the popular psychology class demonstration, where one half of

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the class receives an easy puzzle and the other half

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is given an impossible, uns cale puzzle, and after just

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a few minutes of watching half of the rooms seemingly

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solve what is obviously impossible. The students who think themselves

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to be failing will begin to consider themselves to be failures.

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And later on, when those same students are given the

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same easy puzzle as everyone else, they will consider it

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to be just as impossible as before. They won't even

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try because they know that they will fail. When I

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look around the world today, there are lots of reasons

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to feel helpless. Climate change is rampant, anti intellectualism is

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on the rise. LGBT people are back in the political crosshairs,

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and immigrants of all kinds are stuck right along with them.

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Vaccinating vaccination rates are decreasing, Wealth inequality rates are skyrocketing.

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Literacy rates are horrifyingly low. They're ongoing genocides in Gaza, Soudan, China, Congo,

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and ongoing violence and poverty all over the world. What

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can we do against such insanity? I can make some

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signs and go protest, but I have to buy the

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poster board from a big corporation like Amazon or Walmart

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and have to drive across town to do it, which

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burns a lot of gas. I can try to feed

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the homeless, but there are often laws against that in

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any meat that I might give them contributes to factory farming.

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I can call my representatives and go out and vote,

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but the issues that matter most aren't popular enough to

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pass legislation on, and the best candidates on the ballot

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are certainly no angels. When we try and try, again

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and again to make positive change in the world, only

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to be met with the same bullshit day in and

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day out, When we try to live in a more

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ethical way in one regard, only to find that we've

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been contributing to some atrocity in another regard. When bombings

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and school shootings and rampant institutional racism, oh don't even

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make the news anymore, When every protest is met with

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violence with no accountability, it is easy to learn helplessness,

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to begin to assume that those negative outcomes are inevitable,

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and that there is no difference that you can make,

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and that is exactly what the most evil people in

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this world want you to fin Hopeless people don't march.

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Hopeless people don't vote. Hopeless people don't build. Hopeless people

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don't donate. Hopeless people don't share ideas. Hopeless people don't

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stand up to the massed men raiding their communities. If

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repeated failure to stop the tides of terror can teach

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you to be helpless, then the rich and powerful don't

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have to lift a finger to stop you, because you

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will stop yourself for them. You may feel hopeless right now,

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but I need you to know that you are not helpless.

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Your voice may shake, your body may break, but you

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are not as weak as they want.

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Speaker 2: You to believe.

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Speaker 1: People just like you, the people on the bottom, the poor,

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the destitute, the hungry, the hopeless, have always been the

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ones to drive the world forward. No one of us

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can save this whole world, but every one of us

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can make a difference. And those differences add up faster

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than you can imagine. Holding community meets at your community center,

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bringing aid to the protests, adding your bodies to the

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crowd and your voices to the chant. Getting to know

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the people around you so that those in power can't

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convince you to distrust your neighbors. These are the actions

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that save the world in the long run. Each and

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every one of us has a decision to make every

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single day, and that decision is what kind of difference

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am I going to make?

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Speaker 3: Will it be positive?

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Speaker 1: Even a little bit. Will I make somebody smile today?

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Will I help somebody today? Will I stand up for

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someone today while I educate someone today? Will I clean

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up my little part of the world just a little

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bit today? Or will I simply not try and let

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the darkness creep in just a little bit further. So

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today I am urging you. I am begging you to

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make the right choice. Make it again and again and

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again and again and again and again and again, because

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are not moments, they are habits. Kindness is not weakness,

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it is resistance. Compassion is not passive, it is power.

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Empathy is not sin, it is progress. And hope in

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the face of failure is not madness, it is defiance.

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Every act of love is an act of rebellion. So

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please keep your hope and your love alive, and do

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not let yourself learn to be helpless. Support your community,

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support charities, support each other, and we will get through

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this together. But this is a call in show about atheism.

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We're here to debate religion. So if you think that

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hope comes from the Bible or whatever I guess, call

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in because the show starts right now. Welcome one and

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all to the Atheist experience. I'm your host for us FALCI,

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and I'm joined today by the charming and handsome Jimmy.

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How are you, my dear friend.

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Speaker 3: Oh, you know just the right words to say, powerful,

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powerful stuff. I am doing wonderful. Thank you so much

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for coming up here with me today. I'm trying to

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clean up my little corner of the world, and so

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that's why i wanted to come and sit next to you.

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So I'm looking forward to a good show.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, me too, Me too. It's it's like little things

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like this, little organizations like this, little community events like this,

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Shows like this. I can tell from experience that they

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help a lot of people and they change a lot

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of lives. I'm happy to be a part of this.

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I'm proud to be a supporter of this organization, a

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volunteer for this organization. And I hope that everybody out

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there watching is excited to be here too. I'm excited

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to participate in the show, either as a viewer or

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as a caller. If you believe in a god or God's,

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if you have a religion that you would like to

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tell us to convert to, if you have a reason

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to believe in the supernatural, or if you are to

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have some other issue with atheism as a general id

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if you think the Big Bang or evolution or whatever

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it doesn't make sense, or if you're a science denier

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of other kinds, this is your chance to pick up

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the phone and call people who disagree with you and

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have an actual conversation. But before the show gets started,

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I do have to read this little thing and it

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says the Atheist Experience is a product of the Atheist

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Community of Austin, which is a five to one c

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three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking,

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secular humanism, and the separation of religion and government. Those

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are the things that you need to know before the

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show starts with that Junior like, how are you, like,

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What's what's going on in your world?

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Speaker 3: I'm doing well. I'm doing very well. Thank you for asking.

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You know, I am trying to make a positive impact

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and I have actually challenged all eighty of my students

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to do a weight loss plan with me recently, so

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I've been encouraging them and sharing my progress online with

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them and I'm actually down fifteen pounds. So all right, yeah, thanks, thanks.

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So it's been it's been really good. My wife, who

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loves you, by the way, you guys have met before,

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just graduated nursing school. Uh yeah, thanks, so man, we're good.

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You know, everything is great. How the hell are you doing?

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Speaker 1: The busy is all crap, my dude, you know, work

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and just going through school and and trying to balance

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homework and classes and call in shows and TikTok and

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YouTube and every other fricking thing all the time. It's

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it's a nightmare, but it's.

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Speaker 3: It's all incredible.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't imagine doing anything else. I am also trying

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to to to shed some pounds right now because I'm

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just so I've just been sitting around for so long,

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just stressing and working on one thing that I didn't

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even realize how non active my body had been getting.

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Speaker 3: You're a doctoral student, right, Yeah, that's great, that's great.

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I think the last time I saw you, you hadn't

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started that program yet. How's that going?

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Speaker 1: Insane? I'm teaching myself chemistry from the ground up A

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lot of times. I well, before the show, we we

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were you know, we we have we get here early,

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the hosts to get here early, and we do a

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tech checks and everything like that, and we have a

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little bit of time to wait, and I had to

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just peace out because I'm currently in the middle of

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a take home genetics exam. I'm doing a molecular genetic

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scurse this year, and uh, I've so I've got here

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next to me. I keep I've got my textbooks here

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and I'm bumping into these things as I'm here because

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I'm trying to crack out this exam and I and

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I've gone starting my research. Tomorrow I have to drive

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down to Oklahoma City and do that. It's it's so

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unbelievably stressful, but so unbelievably worth it, and it just

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makes me so happy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I imagine that's great. Yeah, So I'm thanks for

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coming up and working with me today. You know, I'm

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hoping that we get some some great calls. I really appreciated. So,

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I think, what did you say before the show? They

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were asking, well, who do you want to talk to today?

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And you said, well, I could always I can always

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bash on some transphobes or something like that, phobes. Yes, yeah, yeah,

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So I'm hoping that they're listening and they'll give us

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a call, you know. I you know, I see a

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lot of people that that I love having to respond

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to changes in society, changes in the power structures that

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make up our country. Uh, you know, and I it

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breaks my heart that I could possibly do something more.

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And I just I hearing your intro today, Man, it

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just makes me want to do more, you know. And

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I just hope, I hope that you were able to

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inspire somebody. I mean, I feel like if you just

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got one person to think more about, all right, how

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can I motivate my community? How can I be a

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voice in my community? Even if it's one meeting one day? Right?

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You just go to this community planning meeting. You don't

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even you've never done it before. You're a little bit nervous.

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Just walk in, see what it's about. But yeah, you know,

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so many of the we never really see the changes coming.

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And then all of a sudden, you know, somebody that

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you love, somebody that you care about, is affected by

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these changes. And you say, oh, man, am I part

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of the problem. Yeah, And it's just a it's a

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deep thing to think about. So your intro have me

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considering a lot.

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Speaker 1: I really appreciate that because I got to tell you,

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I wrote that intro largely for me. To remember as well,

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because it really, as I said at the beginning, it's

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been it's been really hard watching the news every day

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and tuning in to my favorite channels every day and

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hearing like what's going on, and I have to hear

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about how children are being woken up from their beds

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in the middle of the night and dragged out of

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their homes and zip ties just to see if they

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belong there. And that's certainly not going to traumatize anybody

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by masked men with no badges or identification or consistent uniforms,

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so we don't know if that's a kidnapper or not,

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and we're just supposed to be okay with that. And

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that's normal now, I guess. And it drives me up

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a wall to have to pretend like this is acceptable

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even for a second, when it's just not. And I

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see families being torn apart, and I see, like I said,

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you know, LGBT people especially being tossed in the political crosshairs,

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being treated as demons and sub human, and every immigrant

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being treated as if there's some sort of foreign invader

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and adversary. It is just this long term proliferation of racist, hateful,

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homophobic xenophobic, bigoted, call it what it is, fucking stupid

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rhetoric that has been normalized so much, and now we're

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pretending like we don't know where this came from. Yeah,

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and we're trying to go back and whitewash all of this.

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This just hideous, hideous rhetoric for the past few years.

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Great example, you know, I said, you know, I'm happy

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to talk to creationists or transphobes anytime. All the arguments

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against trans people the exact same arguments that were against

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homosexuals while I was in high school. Exactly the same crap,

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and it means exactly the same nothing. It's the same

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science denial on level with anti vax and flat earth.

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It's conspiracy theory wrapped in ignorance. It's just insane, and

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yet it's on a national stage as if it matters,

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if it means something. It's it's bizarre. It's very bizarre.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, a misunderstanding, a willful ignorance, probably for large

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portions of our population who just you know, feel comfortable

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in this zone where their tribe flourishes because the hate

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is not directed towards them. You know, being in the

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military for sixteen years now, I've had some challenges. Okay.

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First of all, when I'm in my community, in my uniform,

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you know, people don't know how to take me. Many

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people like to assume who I am and what my

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thoughts are, you know, what my positions are, and you know,

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maybe if I am party to the things that they

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don't like. But I have to tell you, I've seen,

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you know, the government do great things. I've seen the

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government do things I don't agree with, and you know,

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in the end, I am truly hopeful that the United

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States States, you know, will make the right decisions. I

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remember when Don't Ask, Don't Tell was repealed, and so

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many people who wanted to proudly come out and serve

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their country and be who they are did so, you know,

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and I have I've served alongside so many wonderful members

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of the LGBTQ community who make me so proud to

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know that, like, if something terrible was going to happen

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and I had to rely on this person, they would

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be there. And it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what

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they worship, even you know, who they pray to, but

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who they love, you know, And I'm just hopeful that

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we can get to a place where we can all

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understand each other. Things are crazy right now, you know.

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And I feel like being here and being being a

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voice for my community and you know, my people is

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a good contribution. So I just hope everybody takes my

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words as as words that are encouraging and loving and

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supportive and and I hope everybody, you know, stay safe

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and he's doing the best they can.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like the same way and on all accounts.

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And it's it's it is hard because I get where

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you're coming from. I'm a white dude in Oklahoma. People

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usually assume I'm on their team when I'm very not. Yeah,

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I get it.

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Speaker 3: I do.

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Speaker 1: Also, while we're here, a couple of things I want

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to shout out. Number one, I've got the chat over here,

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and just anybody, if you're mad about pronouns, pick up

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the phone. Let's talk if you you know. Again, lines

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are open for for theists and believers and whatnot. Anybody

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who disagrees with him. We're saying right now, let's talk.

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Number on the bottom of screen there five one, two

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nine nine two four to two, or use the weblink

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of the description. I also want to give a special

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shout out.

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Speaker 3: We we have.

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Speaker 1: I do scroll through the comment section sometimes on these videos,

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and I've noticed we have one super fan who comments

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multiple times on every single show, no matter how who

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the hosts are just bitching about pronouns. Some it's always

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the same template as something like it's more than a

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little ironic that so and so says this thing about skepticism,

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but they have pronouns. If you see that person, holy crap,

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I want to talk to that person. Have that person called,

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and that's I would love to have a conversation with

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that person, just to just talk about what language is.

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But it doesn't have to be just that. We do

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get plenty of comments on all of our shows whenever

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people are grumpy that we are woke or that we're

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defending LGBT people, as if that's a new thing for

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this community. I said at the beginning of another show

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a long time ago that I used to watch The

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Atheist Experience when I was younger. For like ten years,

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I would watch this show, and the best calls weren't

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even like I loved the ones where somebody would tear

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down religion. Of course that was the point of the show,

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but like some of the best calls out there were

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the ones where you'd have some idiot calling in talking

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about gay people and how it's all unnatural and all

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this stuff, and this community stood up for those people.

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And now fans that have been supposedly fans for a

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very long time get butt hurt and grumpy whenever we

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defend trans people, whenever we defend immigrants, whenever we defend

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any other marginalized group. It's really bizarre. So, and there's

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a major problem in the skepticism community. And I've spoken

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about this for and I will again a major problem

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with skepticism community of people who think that skepticism is

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just disagreeing and the more popular and progress of an idea,

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the more important it is to disagree with it. And

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the more people you upset, the more skeptical you are.

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So yeah, I would love to focus on that if

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we can during this show, as we have people call

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in because I'm want to put my own house in order,

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you know what I mean, not just reaching out to

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the community.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think what people need to understand too is

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while we are seeking to expose the problems between religion

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and government being intertwined, rights for immigrants, rights for the LGBTQ, community,

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trans people. These are all human rights, right. This is

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a this we might and I'm sure that you've said

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this before, and this is a popular phrase, but I

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might disagree with you, but I will I will defend

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your ability to maintain your position regardless of what it is.

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And I'm sure that that was a really poor version

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of a really famous quote who I can't properly attribute

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to right now. But while we may this agree, we

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fight for your ability to live in this little world

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where we're all kind of stuck and just need to

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get along. And in standing up to the religious power

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structures that aim to keep people down, to keep people oppressed,

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speaking up against everybody to have the same rights regardless

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of who you are, that is very much in line

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with our mission as atheists. So for somebody to be

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an atheist but not question the very negative impact that

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the tribal fought, the very kind of right wing perspectives

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or positions that organized religion takes it just kind of

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baffles me. I mean, you really need to consider what

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it is that you actually stand for. If you are

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okay with standing up against the oppression from the religious

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powers that be, well, then you should be up for

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defending everybody's rights to have, you know, the right to

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life and liberty and all those other wonderful things.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree whole heartedly. That's that's the biggest thing

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for me about skepticism. Is it not just a way

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of it. It's not just a single position on a

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single issue. It's not a habit, it's not just a

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single way of thinking. It's it's it's a whole way

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of life if you are being skeptical, if you are

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actually engaging in skeptical thinking, if you are looking at

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the world around you and thinking critically. I don't understand

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how it's possible to accept the world the way that

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it is, you know, and certainly not to try to

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make it worse.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 1: But that's just me. Also, by the way, while we're here,

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bells and whistles, get your kazoos out. We survived another rapture, y'all.

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I wasn't that. I think it was a couple of

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weeks ago we had yet another rapture happened. And now

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the dude on TikTok who said that the rapture was

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going to happen in September and then it didn't, and

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he came out and made a video apologizing and said

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I must have gotten something wrong. So sorry, I'm never

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going to talk about this again. I'm going to stay

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out of the public spotlight. I'm not going to make

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is now making new videos saying that it's going to

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happen tomorrow. So we've got yeah, because because we were

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in the wrong calendar. We were looking at this calendar

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and that calendar, and clearly Jesus really met this other thing.

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This dude who number one has clearly never actually studied

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the history of the Bible, which which where we learned

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that the rapture is a modern idea, it's not an

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original concept, and more importantly, never even read the modern

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versions of the Bible, where it says repeatedly that no

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one will know the day or the hour of the apocalypse,

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not any not angels, not man, not Jesus, but only God.

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By the way, kind of a big nail in the

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coffin there for the whole Jesus is God thing, but

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whatever that Jesus himself says, no one.

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Speaker 3: Knows when it will happen.

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Speaker 1: Only the Father. I don't know, you don't know, the

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angels don't know, nobody knows. And he even says that

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it will be like the flood, But when when all

401
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the people in the world were just living their lives

402
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and then all of the sudden, one day the skies

403
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opened up and the flood came, it'll be equally as

404
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shocking and surprising. It very clear you will be surprised.

405
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And yet we have yet another want to be profit

406
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spreading this idea. And what bothers me about it the

407
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most is not just that somebody believes a crazy thing.

408
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It's that a lot of people believe that, and then

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they in fact that they inflict that on their children.

410
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You've got videos on TikTok of people sobbing and leaving

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notes for their kids. There's a one video that went

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viral and this girl sharing a note that her mother

413
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left for her saying, you know, I hope you repent

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of your sinful ways and join me in heaven and

415
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all the that's that's traumatic and abusive. The children that

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bought into it, that weren't atheists, that weren't skeptics, that

417
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really believed it, how are they gonna deal with going

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back to school the next day after having believed wholeheartedly

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that they were going to flow up naked in front

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of all of their classmates and die, and that was

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just how their life was going to end, and they've

422
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been preparing for that for weeks. It's just that level

423
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of weirdness. I know religious trauma takes a lot of forms,

424
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but holy fuck, I can't imagine what that's like for

425
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a religious child who now has to go through whatever

426
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that looks like for their family.

427
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Speaker 3: It's such an inappropriate it's such an inappropriate situation to

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create for a child. I remember being in my confirmation class.

429
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I was raised Lutheran. I'm in my confirmation class. It

430
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was only about twelve or thirteen. It was eighth grade.

431
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For us, we do things a little later, because you know,

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we're smarter and we can make our own choices. But

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I really had no choice to be there. But anyway,

434
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I'm sitting there listening to my confirmation teacher tell us

435
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that he honestly believes that in the year two thousand

436
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we will have the rapture, and he honestly believes and

437
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he knows in his heart that it's going to happen.

438
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This is also the same guy who, like told of

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group of twelve year olds, my wife and I waited

440
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to have sex until we were married. Why are you

441
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telling me this? Why would you if I ever found

442
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out excuse me that a man in his forties or

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fifties was telling my twelve year old about the sexual

444
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habits of he and his wife. I have a big problem.

445
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I have a big problem. But hey, this is church,

446
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this is religion, right, they were allowed to do that.

447
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We don't need to worry about that. These are good

448
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people that just pervert their power and their opportunity and

449
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just poison kids' minds with this garbage. To do that

450
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to a child is awful. And let me let me

451
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just slow down before I go nuts.

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Speaker 1: Okay, no, please do not slow down.

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Speaker 3: I agree entirely, and I want to hear more. Yeah, so,

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I mean growing up, growing up in my religion, you know,

455
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so we were the cultural Christian family, right, So we

456
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did like the church every every hour a week, and

457
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we got the free coffee, and I'm sure my dad

458
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was sitting in the pews being like, damn, the giants

459
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are coming on in an hour. I got to get home,

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you know. And you know, there was not a whole

461
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lot of religion in our house. But when we were

462
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in church, let me tell you that basement got real weird, right,

463
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They separate the kids from the parents like they always do,

464
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and they stick in the dark basement, and they tell

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you all kinds of weird shit, like, you know, all

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gay people go to hell. And you know, if somebody,

467
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if somebody runs into an abortion clinic and blows it

468
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up or or shoots it up, it's probably the will

469
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of God, you know, because God works in mysterious ways.

470
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All Jews go to hell and deserve to, you know,

471
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because even though they were originally God's chosen people, then

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they chose to not accept Jesus. And these are human beings,

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these are people's lives. You're telling children to hate other

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people and rejoice in their death and rejoice in their torture.

475
00:24:51,319 --> 00:24:54,559
And that is a dangerous, dangerous society to create. I

476
00:24:54,599 --> 00:24:59,839
think people who realize the folly of all this kind

477
00:24:59,839 --> 00:25:01,920
of I mean, if you're a good human being should

478
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,759
step up. You have a responsibility to maybe voice, uh,

479
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,079
voice your objection to it. Somebody's got you. We got

480
00:25:08,079 --> 00:25:14,599
to normalize objecting to hateful, hurtful religious doctrine, especially that

481
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:16,599
which is thrust upon our kids.

482
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 1: And I agree entirely, No, I agree entirely, and that's that.

483
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,799
There's that old Douglas Adam quotes about you know, religion

484
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:25,799
is like you're not allowed to criticize this. Why not

485
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:27,559
because you're not you know, and that kind of thing.

486
00:25:27,559 --> 00:25:30,880
And that really is when I was raised. I was

487
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,599
always taught, you know, you just don't talk about politics,

488
00:25:33,599 --> 00:25:36,079
and you just don't talk about religion. That's just not

489
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,319
something to discuss. And what did that generate? Did that

490
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,160
generate a society of very polite people that are like

491
00:25:42,279 --> 00:25:45,319
all really well oriented. No, it generated a society people

492
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,640
who don't know how to talk about these things and

493
00:25:48,759 --> 00:25:51,839
don't think it's possible to bring these things up without

494
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,440
massively offending somebody and criticizing somebody.

495
00:25:54,799 --> 00:25:55,039
Speaker 2: Uh.

496
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 1: Even again, I love turning the gun back on ourselves

497
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,480
and saying listen. Even in our community, a lot of

498
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,440
people who don't understand the difference between criticizing a religion

499
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,559
and criticizing a religious belief and criticizing a religious practice

500
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:11,319
and criticizing all religious people or everybody in this religion

501
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,680
or whatever. You talk about these these ideas everything you

502
00:26:14,799 --> 00:26:17,559
just said, you know, teaching your children that they are

503
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,000
so evil that they deserve to go to hell, and

504
00:26:21,039 --> 00:26:24,839
the only way they will be like allowed the grace

505
00:26:25,279 --> 00:26:29,079
of not being tortured forever is if they prostrate themselves

506
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,920
and genuflect enough and brag and pray and all these things.

507
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,240
That's child abuse. And imagine if you're a Christian watching this,

508
00:26:36,599 --> 00:26:39,720
imagine teaching your children that the bogey man is real

509
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,480
and that there really is a monster under their bed

510
00:26:42,519 --> 00:26:45,720
and it is going to eat them unless they eat

511
00:26:45,759 --> 00:26:48,480
their vegetables. That would be an abusive thing to do.

512
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,119
Of course, the monster isn't real, but you are making

513
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,240
them think that it is. And if you step that

514
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,079
up further and said, and you freaking deserve it too,

515
00:26:56,079 --> 00:26:58,279
because you're so awful of a child and you won't

516
00:26:58,279 --> 00:27:02,039
eat your damn vegetables. Well, now being emotionally abusive as well,

517
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,440
and that is precisely what the hell story is. And

518
00:27:05,519 --> 00:27:08,319
so like to be able to criticize that is super important.

519
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,680
But then to make sure to put the caveat the

520
00:27:10,839 --> 00:27:13,720
reason why the parents are doing this is because that

521
00:27:13,759 --> 00:27:16,400
shit was done to them. They are abusing their children

522
00:27:16,559 --> 00:27:19,640
because they were abused, and that abuse was called love.

523
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:25,880
They were told this, this lie, this sick, manipulative mockery

524
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,039
of love, that God loves you so much, it'll burn

525
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,559
you forever if you don't love them back. That fucked

526
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,079
up version of love was what was thrust upon them,

527
00:27:34,079 --> 00:27:36,240
and now they are passing that on their children. It

528
00:27:36,279 --> 00:27:39,279
is generational trauma. It is cyclical abuse, and if you

529
00:27:39,319 --> 00:27:41,559
want to not be a part of it, maybe don't

530
00:27:41,599 --> 00:27:44,240
teach your children that they're sinful just for being born.

531
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 3: You know, it's it's also part of their tribal identity.

532
00:27:47,559 --> 00:27:49,839
I mean, it's kind of you know, that is the

533
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,799
It's the network that they create among their friends and

534
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,720
close family or excuse me, family and close friends, and

535
00:27:55,759 --> 00:27:58,799
it's how they identify, it's how they relate to the group,

536
00:27:58,839 --> 00:28:01,440
and it's just what their life is defined by. We've

537
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:02,680
got to break those chains.

538
00:28:02,799 --> 00:28:06,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, hurt people, hurt people. We gotta help people out.

539
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:07,960
And that's what these shows are for. This is to

540
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,759
remind people that there are the best thing about these

541
00:28:11,759 --> 00:28:14,559
shows is reminding people that there are options. You can

542
00:28:14,759 --> 00:28:18,160
talk about this stuff. I have met so many religious

543
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,640
people who watch shows like this for the first time

544
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,079
and hear people talk negatively about religious belief for the

545
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,640
first time, called people criticizing God, people criticizing the Bible,

546
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,880
for the first time, and it's a breakthrough moment just

547
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,640
to be able to hear that, like, oh shit, they

548
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,039
said something negative about Jesus and no lightning came out

549
00:28:36,079 --> 00:28:38,559
of the sky, the earth didn't swallow them up. And

550
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:43,440
worst of all, what they said made sense, like you, yep, sorry, no,

551
00:28:43,519 --> 00:28:45,000
you gotta go ahead what we're saying, like you.

552
00:28:45,039 --> 00:28:48,359
Speaker 3: When I came across the atheist experience, I was already

553
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,960
kind of close to saying, all right, I'm no longer

554
00:28:51,039 --> 00:28:54,000
a Christian. But the biggest moment for me was, holy shit,

555
00:28:54,079 --> 00:28:56,759
people are talking about this. I have never heard a

556
00:28:56,759 --> 00:28:57,920
conversation like this.

557
00:28:58,079 --> 00:29:00,839
Speaker 1: Yeah that's it, And it's not like, yeah, that's that's

558
00:29:01,079 --> 00:29:03,359
I was never there, but like I have seen so

559
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,799
many people who have been there, and like, that's that's why,

560
00:29:05,839 --> 00:29:08,640
you know why Kitchens and everybody was so effective. Like yeah,

561
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,359
it was a bit of an asshole sometimes, but at

562
00:29:10,359 --> 00:29:12,000
the end of the day, what he was doing that

563
00:29:12,119 --> 00:29:15,599
shock and awe was really really effective at shaking people

564
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,200
out of their funk, out of like the set place

565
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,240
that they were in where they are not allowed to

566
00:29:20,359 --> 00:29:23,319
question these things, not allowed to think outside of this box.

567
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,240
People who are very used to dogmatic thinking don't know

568
00:29:27,519 --> 00:29:30,160
how to think non dogmatically. And this is what I

569
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,000
get all the time when I talk about evolution. People

570
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,319
will call an all time well, so well Darwin did this,

571
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,200
and Darwin said that, like, okay, I don't worship Darwin.

572
00:29:38,359 --> 00:29:43,119
Now what And we have to have this argument about like, okay, what,

573
00:29:43,119 --> 00:29:46,359
what is evidence? And why does it matter? And it's

574
00:29:46,359 --> 00:29:48,279
a lot of the same thing we talk about religion.

575
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,039
And I'll say, listen, the God of the Bible, first

576
00:29:51,039 --> 00:29:52,519
of all, I don't think is real. But even if

577
00:29:52,519 --> 00:29:55,119
he is real, certainly isn't deserving any of any kind

578
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:55,559
of worship.

579
00:29:55,599 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 3: The God of the.

580
00:29:56,079 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: Bible is an evil son of a bitch, and I

581
00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:59,759
would never worship him even he was alive. And then

582
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,200
question is, okay, well then you worship Satan.

583
00:30:02,319 --> 00:30:02,559
Speaker 3: Nope.

584
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 1: Not worshiping is an option. And I need you to

585
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:09,119
understand that it is possible. If you're asking this question

586
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,039
of like, well, if you don't worship God, then who

587
00:30:11,079 --> 00:30:13,119
are you worshiping? It's like saying, okay, well, if this

588
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,240
isn't your master, then who's slave are you? I'm not

589
00:30:15,279 --> 00:30:18,440
a fucking slave and I don't want to be. I

590
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,720
don't know it's just that that bothers the shit out

591
00:30:20,759 --> 00:30:23,720
of me when we I'm not saying I don't love it,

592
00:30:23,759 --> 00:30:25,279
like It's an important part of the job and I'm

593
00:30:25,279 --> 00:30:26,839
happy about it, but it blows my mind that a

594
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,240
lot of the time these conversations have to circulate around

595
00:30:29,279 --> 00:30:32,880
how is it possible to question God? How is it

596
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,119
possible to not believe in this rather than just do

597
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,759
you believe it or not? That's a scary state of

598
00:30:38,759 --> 00:30:39,200
the world.

599
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, education is important. I am a huge proponent of

600
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,960
and like you said, I think the most important thing

601
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,000
that you can that you can kind of draw from

602
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,599
having a good education system and access it to good

603
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:58,319
resources is the ability for the person delivering the message

604
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,119
to like you said, turn the gun back on ourselves.

605
00:31:01,119 --> 00:31:03,319
In the line of work that you're in, peer review

606
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,920
is very important, right. We are constantly looking to tear

607
00:31:08,039 --> 00:31:11,279
down our own arguments. As a former military intelligence analyst,

608
00:31:11,359 --> 00:31:14,880
I would have to present courses of action to generals

609
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,839
and commanders. But before I did that, I spent a

610
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,440
week trying to find every single freaking hole that I

611
00:31:20,519 --> 00:31:23,559
could to tear it down and make sure that it

612
00:31:23,599 --> 00:31:27,799
was solid. And you know, it is okay to say

613
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,400
I have this idea, now let's destroy it. Now, let's

614
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,480
tear it completely down to make sure that the idea works.

615
00:31:34,799 --> 00:31:37,680
That is healthy. That is the sign of somebody who

616
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,799
is mature and willing to find the truth instead of

617
00:31:40,839 --> 00:31:44,160
just saying, well, who's master? Or excuse me? Whose slave

618
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,920
can I be? Who will be my master? Right? Instead

619
00:31:47,039 --> 00:31:50,079
say who needs why do we need masters? I think

620
00:31:50,079 --> 00:31:51,119
that's a more important question.

621
00:31:51,559 --> 00:31:54,079
Speaker 1: That's that old quote about like what was it when

622
00:31:54,119 --> 00:31:56,480
I when I feed the poor, they call me a saint?

623
00:31:56,519 --> 00:31:58,519
When I asked why they're poor? They call me a communist.

624
00:31:58,559 --> 00:32:01,119
It is the same thing as it's just if I,

625
00:32:01,119 --> 00:32:03,000
if I this is so, if I disconnect from this,

626
00:32:03,039 --> 00:32:05,240
they're like, oh, well, who are you going to obey

627
00:32:05,279 --> 00:32:05,960
and worship? Then?

628
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:06,839
Speaker 2: What's going on? You know?

629
00:32:07,079 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: It's strange. We've got a couple of calls on the

630
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,559
line here, and we'll start talking to those folks now. Again, though,

631
00:32:13,599 --> 00:32:15,680
if you're out there and you are, both of our

632
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:17,400
calls on the line now are atheists. That's why we

633
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,359
haven't talked to them quite yet, because we usually prioritize

634
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,359
THEIS calls and we wanted to let THEIS have some

635
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,359
time to call in. But hey, if you out there

636
00:32:24,599 --> 00:32:27,119
believe in a god, if you believe that we're mischaracterizing

637
00:32:27,279 --> 00:32:30,599
your belief your religion, please set us straight. Please call

638
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,920
in and talk to us. We want to have these

639
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,839
conversations with you because they're important. As we've been discussing here,

640
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:38,920
we think these things are harmful. If you do not,

641
00:32:39,319 --> 00:32:41,680
this is your chance. But for right now, let's talk

642
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,480
to Jeff calling in from Louisiana, who wants to know

643
00:32:44,599 --> 00:32:47,440
why humans seek to tend to seek meaning about the

644
00:32:47,519 --> 00:32:50,119
universe and where that comes from. Jeff, you are on

645
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,559
the Athey Experience with Forrest and Jimmy. How you doing today?

646
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:53,279
Speaker 4: What's up doing?

647
00:32:53,359 --> 00:32:53,559
Speaker 5: Great?

648
00:32:53,599 --> 00:32:54,039
Speaker 3: Hurry off?

649
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 2: I'm all right cool.

650
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,759
Speaker 5: So, yeah, I grew up. Give a little backstory. I

651
00:32:58,759 --> 00:33:02,920
grew up in religious household. I've been deconstructing for a

652
00:33:03,039 --> 00:33:05,880
number of years and thanks to everyone in this whole

653
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,440
space that helps do that. Really appreciate it. And I

654
00:33:09,519 --> 00:33:14,000
started reading the book Stapiens, and they were talking about

655
00:33:14,039 --> 00:33:17,359
how humans like they think that part of why we

656
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,519
may have evolved to be kind of the most dominant

657
00:33:20,559 --> 00:33:24,079
species on the planet is because of our educational fire

658
00:33:24,119 --> 00:33:26,200
and being able to use fire and then I got

659
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:30,680
me thinking that, like, maybe it's built into being human

660
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,880
to be curious about things and to try and understand

661
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:35,920
how they work. And I was thinking, if we had

662
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,319
hundreds of thousands of years I think maybe one hundred

663
00:33:39,359 --> 00:33:42,240
thousand years of evolution, not exactly shore on the timeframe there,

664
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,440
but like of kind of doing that, it would make

665
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:45,680
sense that we would become the.

666
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,119
Speaker 2: Species that is super curious about how things in the

667
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:49,759
world work.

668
00:33:50,079 --> 00:33:52,519
Speaker 5: And then that might lead to questions like where did

669
00:33:52,519 --> 00:33:53,559
everything come from?

670
00:33:53,759 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 2: Why are we here?

671
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,119
Speaker 5: What's the meaning of purpose? Maybe that's how religions evolved.

672
00:33:58,799 --> 00:34:02,079
And I was thinking that, like, I think Dawkins actually

673
00:34:02,119 --> 00:34:05,039
said that the question is like what's the purpose of

674
00:34:05,039 --> 00:34:07,640
the universe doesn't really make sense. It's kind of just

675
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,079
like it's not a real sensible question. So anyways, I'm

676
00:34:11,119 --> 00:34:15,280
curious to get y'all thoughts on does that theory make sense?

677
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 2: Do you agree with it? Do you disagree with it?

678
00:34:17,039 --> 00:34:18,199
Do you have a different perspective?

679
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:19,760
Speaker 1: No, Jimmy, do you gotta go first?

680
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 3: Sure? I can do that. Well, you put me on

681
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:25,840
the spot here a little bit, Jeff, because I'm here

682
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,000
with an evolutionary biologist who's studying his PhD. And you

683
00:34:29,039 --> 00:34:31,559
want me to talk about you know, yeah, hey, you

684
00:34:31,599 --> 00:34:33,760
want to talk. You want me to talk about the

685
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:35,840
evolution of human beings. But I will give it my

686
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,519
best one and let Forrest tear it down. So, first

687
00:34:39,519 --> 00:34:42,159
of all, Sapiens. I did read Sapiens. I thought it

688
00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:44,400
was a very well written book. A lot of good

689
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,519
concepts in there that I found helpful to understanding some things.

690
00:34:47,639 --> 00:34:50,679
I do want to caveat that with excuse me. There

691
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,320
is a lot of critique about that book that maybe

692
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:57,480
the author didn't specify certain concepts well enough, maybe he

693
00:34:57,559 --> 00:35:01,039
wasn't well versed enough to be able to speak intelligently

694
00:35:01,079 --> 00:35:03,360
to certain things in there. So I want you to

695
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,079
take it with a grain of salt. That, of course,

696
00:35:05,119 --> 00:35:07,519
in any situation when somebody is able to put forth

697
00:35:07,519 --> 00:35:10,760
their ideas on how mankind or anything human kinds, excuse

698
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,719
me came about, it's susceptible to be to be torn

699
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,599
down a little bit. You know, I think that human

700
00:35:16,639 --> 00:35:20,400
beings are and when I say they're social creatures, I

701
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,039
think that we tend to identify with a group because

702
00:35:24,079 --> 00:35:28,039
of the old concept, the tendency, maybe the innate need

703
00:35:28,159 --> 00:35:31,639
and instinctual desire to have safety in numbers, and so

704
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:33,960
we formed these little tribes, these little in groups.

705
00:35:34,039 --> 00:35:34,199
Speaker 2: Right.

706
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,039
Speaker 3: I think there was a time in human history where

707
00:35:37,079 --> 00:35:39,800
the in groups were small. They were a lot less people,

708
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,360
there was a lot more land, and there weren't that

709
00:35:43,519 --> 00:35:47,000
many things for us to do. We wandered instead of settling. Right,

710
00:35:47,039 --> 00:35:50,840
So things got smaller, and then things got more or

711
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,840
excuse me, things things were smaller, like our scope was

712
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,199
smaller as it got more complex. As we grew in number,

713
00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,800
I think the tribes grew and started to compete a

714
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:03,400
little bit more, probably a little bit more violently. And

715
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,079
that old saying knowledge is power, I think is applicable there.

716
00:36:07,159 --> 00:36:11,599
You know, I think that humans, in conjunction with their

717
00:36:11,679 --> 00:36:13,800
need to be the most powerful tribe, or the need

718
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,880
to have all the knowledge on a very base level

719
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,639
I'm talking, probably want to have all of the answers,

720
00:36:20,679 --> 00:36:22,960
and when they don't have them, they make stuff up

721
00:36:23,039 --> 00:36:26,199
and then they use that institution that they've created to

722
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:30,159
control the rest of the population. I think generically speaking,

723
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,679
that is what we can see now. There are also

724
00:36:33,519 --> 00:36:38,880
very honest and very non threatening people who also want knowledge,

725
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,239
who want to do good for the rest of the tribe,

726
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:43,639
the rest of the species, etc. And so there is

727
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:48,239
an ambiguity there, but us being curious is probably linked

728
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,519
to our need to survive and our desire to just

729
00:36:53,199 --> 00:36:56,800
have the power where it benefits us. And so that's

730
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:00,559
where I would top off my ability to speak to

731
00:37:00,559 --> 00:37:02,199
that subject. I'll kick it over the forest.

732
00:37:02,639 --> 00:37:04,679
Speaker 1: I think there's a you hit a lot of nails

733
00:37:04,679 --> 00:37:06,079
on a lot of heads there, And like, what I

734
00:37:06,079 --> 00:37:07,840
think is really interesting about it is when you look

735
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,320
at like at I'm gonna go outside of what I

736
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:12,800
know and then closer to what I know, but like

737
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:14,639
starting from the outside, because it is not my air

738
00:37:14,679 --> 00:37:18,039
of expertise. As far as I remember, religions tend to

739
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,119
start like the earliest you know kind of things is

740
00:37:21,559 --> 00:37:23,960
very much to do with like the sun and light

741
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,840
and warmth and protection and all these things that come

742
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,760
with the sun. And then you get like hunting coming in,

743
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,480
food and whatnot. And then you get like fertility coming in.

744
00:37:32,599 --> 00:37:35,360
You know, you see all these images of the very busty,

745
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,199
very curvacous women being drawn and like all these things,

746
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,440
and you kind of have this this like systemic or

747
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:45,599
systematic growth of religious belief. But What I find more

748
00:37:45,599 --> 00:37:49,880
interesting than just that timeline is looking at like how

749
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,360
religions compare between different types of societies. If you have

750
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,079
a society that's very hunter gatherer, then you're going to

751
00:37:56,159 --> 00:37:59,039
have a more animistic religion. You're going to have a

752
00:37:59,639 --> 00:38:03,440
religion where everything is alive and where the lines between

753
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,039
culture and nature aren't really there. If they are, they're

754
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,400
very blurry, as opposed to if you have a very

755
00:38:10,599 --> 00:38:14,719
large trade based society, a very multicultural society with lots

756
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,519
of different people coming in and out Ancient Greece, ancient Rome, right,

757
00:38:17,679 --> 00:38:20,719
You're then going to have this huge pantheon of gods

758
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:25,280
who are capricious and very human in their behaviors and

759
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:30,159
desires and emotions, and who have specific control over specific things,

760
00:38:30,159 --> 00:38:33,320
but generally don't really care about the broad scope of

761
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:35,719
stuff that's not really their job. And then when you

762
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,199
get into really big societies, then you get what you're

763
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,480
talking about, where you have a monotheistic religion where God

764
00:38:42,639 --> 00:38:46,360
is not just present, he is omnipresent, and he's in

765
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,079
your house and he's in your bedroom, and he's in

766
00:38:49,119 --> 00:38:52,079
your brain, and he's making sure that you behave when

767
00:38:52,079 --> 00:38:55,679
the state cannot compete with the size of the society,

768
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,079
and the state cannot maintain surveillance, they invent a boogie

769
00:38:59,119 --> 00:39:01,360
man to be surveillance monster for them. And so like

770
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,199
that's kind of how we, like, as far as I remember,

771
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:06,639
as like how we start to see the progression go

772
00:39:06,679 --> 00:39:09,280
in terms of like a society's grow, So like early on,

773
00:39:09,679 --> 00:39:13,719
religious belief centers around the things that society needs, answers

774
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:17,880
those unanswerable questions. What's happening in the sky when there's

775
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:21,519
these flashes of light? Surely there's somebody out there doing that.

776
00:39:21,639 --> 00:39:25,280
What are those pinpoints in the night of what? Maybe

777
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,159
those are things people being and maybe those are campfires

778
00:39:28,199 --> 00:39:32,000
far away. What caused you know, this hurricane to blow

779
00:39:32,039 --> 00:39:34,280
in and knock down my house? It must have been

780
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,920
some dude that can make hurricanes, right, Uh. And then

781
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,639
as you grow more and more, you are like, hey,

782
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:45,719
my entire life is this boat and catching fish. Surely

783
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,119
there's some dude who cares about that. And it can't

784
00:39:49,119 --> 00:39:51,599
be the same dude who cares about that lady over

785
00:39:51,639 --> 00:39:54,639
there with her corn, because that that dude's busy. So like,

786
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:56,679
I need my own dude, and I'm gonna name them.

787
00:39:56,679 --> 00:39:59,920
This and then and then eventually it's you've got big brother,

788
00:40:00,079 --> 00:40:02,199
and so like that's the way that I was taught

789
00:40:02,199 --> 00:40:04,519
to see it. I want to be very clear, I'm

790
00:40:04,559 --> 00:40:07,000
not a religious scholar. That's just the way that this

791
00:40:07,119 --> 00:40:08,760
was taught to me. The way that I see it

792
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,119
as a biologist is that religion is a domestication to

793
00:40:11,199 --> 00:40:13,440
over humans, Like long and short of it is, it's

794
00:40:13,519 --> 00:40:15,719
just a way to keep people in line on the

795
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,159
large scale. But that I am also only talking about

796
00:40:19,199 --> 00:40:22,440
like religion as we colloquially know it today. I don't know,

797
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:24,760
There's there's a lot of stuff there, and I hope

798
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,519
that answers some of your questions. Maybe, like go, I

799
00:40:27,559 --> 00:40:29,320
get to you in the in the vibele what we're

800
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:29,960
talking about.

801
00:40:30,199 --> 00:40:32,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's that's interesting.

802
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:33,119
Speaker 3: I was.

803
00:40:33,519 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 5: I appreciate what we all said.

804
00:40:35,679 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 3: I was kind of.

805
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:37,639
Speaker 5: Thinking more along.

806
00:40:37,519 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 6: The lines of like not just specifically religions, but also

807
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,199
meaning as well. Like one thing I struggle with a

808
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,800
lot is trying to find a meaning or purpose in

809
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,880
my life. And then when I was reading Sapiens, I mean,

810
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:51,599
who knows, you know, like it could have just been

811
00:40:51,639 --> 00:40:53,559
the neurons that happened to fire the right way. It

812
00:40:53,679 --> 00:40:55,320
made me feel a certain state.

813
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:57,800
Speaker 5: But like it makes sense. At the time, it was like,

814
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,039
oh yeah, I evolved from the advanta sures that are

815
00:41:01,119 --> 00:41:05,480
seeking meaning in things, and like that's why I would.

816
00:41:05,199 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 3: Be, That's why you would be. And then he exploded, there.

817
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,119
Speaker 1: Jeff, can you hear us? Well, I'll start to answer

818
00:41:12,119 --> 00:41:14,039
the question you were ask And just to be clear,

819
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:16,360
I guess as far as menis inserted, I think we're

820
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:20,599
just very curious creatures. And and you know, where does

821
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,159
lightning come from? And where do hurricanes come from? Are

822
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,480
just as interesting questions is where do I come from?

823
00:41:25,639 --> 00:41:30,599
And more importantly why? And when you are very early

824
00:41:30,639 --> 00:41:33,280
on in your life, either as an individual or as

825
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:35,840
a society or as a species, you're very early on,

826
00:41:36,679 --> 00:41:38,800
you don't have a lot of critical thinking faculties, and

827
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:42,360
you don't really know how logic works, and so you

828
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,760
do this whole post hawk ergo profter hawk thing. We

829
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,639
are like, all right, I prayed this way and then

830
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,280
the sun came out. That must have this, This must

831
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:54,480
have worked right, And maybe there are other associations that

832
00:41:54,519 --> 00:41:57,239
we don't know. I met one guy really quick that

833
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:01,679
I while ago that I don't have any evidence for this.

834
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:03,119
I'm not saying this is true, but I thought it

835
00:42:03,159 --> 00:42:04,960
was a really funny thing that he was talking about.

836
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,599
He said, you know, when you're starting a fire, you

837
00:42:07,639 --> 00:42:09,400
have to get down on your hands and knees and

838
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:11,840
blow at it. And that looks a lot like praying,

839
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,199
and maybe that was like a thing that like and

840
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,000
I thought that was a really clever way of thinking

841
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:17,960
about it. Again, not saying that's true at all, no

842
00:42:18,039 --> 00:42:20,639
evidence for that whatsoever. It's just interesting to think about.

843
00:42:20,639 --> 00:42:23,440
Like earlier on, you know, when we're talking about where

844
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:26,719
these folks got their ideas, ask a child why they

845
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,920
believe in fairies whenever their toys disappear, why they believe

846
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,039
in a boogeyman under the bed, why they believe in

847
00:42:32,039 --> 00:42:35,199
anything else? Because they don't have those critical thinking faculties.

848
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:37,960
And it took a little while for humans to develop

849
00:42:38,039 --> 00:42:41,400
those things as a whole, for us to learn not

850
00:42:41,639 --> 00:42:43,320
just what to think, but how to think, for us

851
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,039
to develop philosophy and logic and science and all this

852
00:42:46,079 --> 00:42:48,719
stuff that went back and answered the old questions that

853
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,480
we were able to answer with dogma and faith and assumptions.

854
00:42:53,039 --> 00:42:55,559
It's often said that religion was our first attempt at science,

855
00:42:55,599 --> 00:42:57,320
and because it was our first, it was our worst.

856
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,000
So we answered those big questions, Where tornadoes come from?

857
00:43:01,039 --> 00:43:04,599
Why are we here? Where does the sun go at night?

858
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,000
We answered all of those questions. They weren't good answers,

859
00:43:08,039 --> 00:43:10,440
but they were answers because we're curious things. And when

860
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,800
it came to meaning, they were the same answers. Why

861
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,159
am I here? Why did something bad happen to me?

862
00:43:16,519 --> 00:43:18,639
Why did I meet my wife? Why did I have

863
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,239
no children? Why did my house catch fire? Why did

864
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,159
I find my coin on the ground because some guy

865
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,679
wanted it to happen? Was the answer all the time.

866
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,760
Because you've been good, because I prayed properly, because I

867
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:34,079
sacrificed properly, because whatever, we found reasons to justify these

868
00:43:34,119 --> 00:43:37,159
things and to find meaning for ourselves. And now we're

869
00:43:37,199 --> 00:43:39,000
at a point where we're lucky enough to go back

870
00:43:39,039 --> 00:43:41,840
and deconstruct from those things and find real meanings and

871
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:45,480
real answers. Anyway, with that, Jeff, it sounds like you

872
00:43:45,559 --> 00:43:48,719
are dead. We will miss you. Rest in peace, but

873
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,840
we appreciate you spending your last breath calling into this show.

874
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,559
We're going to move on now to some other callers.

875
00:43:54,599 --> 00:43:54,840
Speaker 2: I don't know.

876
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:56,199
Speaker 1: Do you think I missed anything there?

877
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:58,519
Speaker 3: No, I don't. I thought that was great, and I

878
00:43:58,599 --> 00:44:04,239
really liked your explanation of people creating gods out of

879
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:06,159
the things that were important to them. You know, there's

880
00:44:06,199 --> 00:44:10,559
a certain line of longitude where across that region the

881
00:44:10,599 --> 00:44:13,360
gods where there was like very little rainfall, the gods

882
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:16,760
tended to be storm gods right and then south they

883
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,559
tended to worship more of the moon god that had

884
00:44:19,599 --> 00:44:22,360
an impact on tides and rivers, flooding and things like that,

885
00:44:22,559 --> 00:44:25,239
you know, and so the moon god was really important.

886
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:29,639
And you know the early Greeks, Poseidon is the earliest

887
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,880
documented god in that pantheon, even though he is not

888
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,000
the head of the pantheon. But they come from a

889
00:44:35,119 --> 00:44:40,000
very aquatic and an island seafearing society. Makes sense why

890
00:44:40,039 --> 00:44:42,360
Poseidon would be there first. And so I thought that

891
00:44:42,519 --> 00:44:45,280
was wonderful. I always loved talking about the origin of

892
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:48,920
some of these really great stories, and I thank Jeff

893
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:49,679
for the questions.

894
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:51,159
Speaker 1: It was a lot of fun. And again I want

895
00:44:51,159 --> 00:44:53,639
to stress, like there are people who actually study this shit.

896
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:55,960
What I'm saying is just parroting from what I've learned

897
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,599
from then I'm a biologist, not a religious scholar. If

898
00:44:58,679 --> 00:45:01,000
lost or anything like that, I encourage you to look

899
00:45:01,039 --> 00:45:03,760
up what those folks say about this stuff. But everything

900
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:05,519
that I said is just crap that I've learned from

901
00:45:05,599 --> 00:45:08,599
them that I'm trying to make make sense with that.

902
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:11,599
Let's move on to our first theis scholar of the day.

903
00:45:12,079 --> 00:45:15,559
We've got Anatotally calling in from New York who wants

904
00:45:15,559 --> 00:45:17,719
to talk about why people turn away from religion.

905
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:18,559
Speaker 3: Ana, Totally.

906
00:45:18,599 --> 00:45:21,400
Speaker 1: You are on the line with Forrest and Jimmy Junior.

907
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 2: How are you doing? Hell sir, I'm doing great. How

908
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:23,840
are you? Gray?

909
00:45:24,079 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 1: Never had a bad day, dude.

910
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:32,400
Speaker 2: That's great? Okay. So I basically gave like a short

911
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:36,760
sentence about how about what I'm claiming at least should

912
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:37,360
I state it?

913
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:39,599
Speaker 1: Or by all means, yeah, tell us where're calling about?

914
00:45:39,679 --> 00:45:44,159
Speaker 2: Okay? Okay. So basically it goes on something along the

915
00:45:44,159 --> 00:45:47,719
lines of this is that most people turn away from

916
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:52,800
religious teachings because they don't know what they're turning away from.

917
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:54,679
Speaker 1: Okay, that's what do you mean by that? They don't

918
00:45:54,679 --> 00:45:55,800
know what they're turning away from.

919
00:45:56,239 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 2: They have a different definition for what they feel certain

920
00:46:03,519 --> 00:46:06,760
things in the Bible are right, and then they don't

921
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:10,400
agree when somebody tells them that that's the definition of something, right,

922
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,679
that's what's written in the Bible, they don't they don't

923
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:14,639
agree to that, but yet that's what it says in

924
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:18,079
the Bible. So I don't understand how they could say

925
00:46:18,119 --> 00:46:21,039
that that's not the definition of it.

926
00:46:21,039 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 3: It sounds like you're giving me, like how I see it.

927
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 1: Sounds like you're giving me some really like broad statements here,

928
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:28,960
and I'm trying to figure out like what the actual specifically,

929
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,519
because like what in my experience, people turn away from

930
00:46:31,559 --> 00:46:34,440
religion when they realize that there's no good reason to

931
00:46:34,519 --> 00:46:37,760
believe in this God and that the God isn't worth

932
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:41,079
worshiping in the first place. And the deconstruction that I

933
00:46:41,119 --> 00:46:43,760
see most often is that people go out looking for

934
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,400
reasons to believe in this God and they can't find any,

935
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:48,519
and they find lots of reasons not to, so they

936
00:46:48,559 --> 00:46:51,519
stop and then they kind of have like a pantheistic

937
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:54,519
vibe where it's like, well, there's some spiritual thing going

938
00:46:54,559 --> 00:46:58,000
on here, everything's God, everything's connected, whatever, and then they

939
00:46:58,039 --> 00:47:00,880
slowly deconstruct from that. But if you're talking about religion,

940
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:02,920
just in terms of use you're saying the Bible. You

941
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:04,920
only need to read the Bible to know why you

942
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:06,840
should not believe in the Bible, and you only need

943
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:08,599
to think about the implications of the God of the

944
00:47:08,599 --> 00:47:10,800
Bible to know why you shouldn't worship that God either.

945
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 2: Okay, can I can? I I guess state my understanding

946
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:20,559
of you know, our God, Christian God, right, because I

947
00:47:20,559 --> 00:47:23,400
went through this too, like I was like, I was religious,

948
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:25,519
I was atheist that I came back to religion. So

949
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:30,719
you know, I'm not saying I don't understand why people leave, right,

950
00:47:31,079 --> 00:47:33,159
I fully do understand. I wasn't like, oh I wanted

951
00:47:33,199 --> 00:47:35,920
to be a sinner and I left. You know, it wasn't.

952
00:47:36,639 --> 00:47:39,199
I just didn't. I just never heard it said in

953
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:41,880
such a way that made sense to me, Like like

954
00:47:42,039 --> 00:47:46,519
nobody ever was able to put religion and let's say,

955
00:47:47,159 --> 00:47:50,039
evolution together for me in a way where I was like, yep,

956
00:47:50,119 --> 00:47:50,760
that makes sense.

957
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 1: So let me just ask you a question really quickly,

958
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:54,679
a couple of questions, just to understand because you're going

959
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,000
to talk about your Christian belief, your belief in the

960
00:47:57,039 --> 00:47:59,960
Christian God really quickly. Do you believe that the Bible

961
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:02,519
is true? Okay, do you believe.

962
00:48:02,199 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 3: That it is true?

963
00:48:03,039 --> 00:48:06,280
Speaker 2: I think when I think, I'm asking questions.

964
00:48:06,519 --> 00:48:09,360
Speaker 1: Do you believe do you believe that the Bible as

965
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:12,360
a book, as a story, as a history of the universe.

966
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:15,480
Do you believe that the Bible is literally one hundred

967
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:18,480
percent true every word is accurate or do you think

968
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:20,679
that it's something that needs to be interpreted and taken

969
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:24,320
in context. And it's been changed and altered and annotated

970
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:26,159
throughout history, and so some of it's not right, some

971
00:48:26,199 --> 00:48:27,960
of it is, and you kind of have to vibe

972
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:29,679
with certain parts of it. Which which of those do

973
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:30,119
you believe?

974
00:48:30,199 --> 00:48:34,639
Speaker 2: Okay, I guess it would be a combination of those things.

975
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:38,639
So I think every single story is in the Bible

976
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,920
is true tru like not a physical truth like you're

977
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,880
a scientist would say is true, right, not like, Oh,

978
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,199
there was a guy who was the name was Noah,

979
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:50,400
you know, and he walked around and did all these things, right,

980
00:48:50,559 --> 00:48:53,960
But it's it's kind of like the same way that

981
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:58,320
a very good hero is represented in a story is

982
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:00,960
the way Noah was represented at the time, and that

983
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:03,880
it was a different time too, So that's why people

984
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:05,760
were like, oh, why are all these horrible things? Was

985
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,440
because society did all these horrible things. They're like all

986
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:10,360
the slavery in the Bible. Yeah, there were slavery, and

987
00:49:10,519 --> 00:49:14,000
there was slavery everywhere. Then we don't move the way.

988
00:49:14,159 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 1: So my follow up question then, my follow up question

989
00:49:16,519 --> 00:49:21,039
then anatotally is do you believe that the God character

990
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:25,239
in the Bible is an accurate representation of who and

991
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:26,880
what God actually.

992
00:49:26,599 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 2: Is phys the coal world that we live in. Like

993
00:49:29,159 --> 00:49:31,119
I think when I spoke to somebody earlier, it was

994
00:49:31,119 --> 00:49:33,440
probably one of the people on the team, They said physics.

995
00:49:33,559 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 1: Right.

996
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,199
Speaker 2: They were like, physics what I'm saying? And it was like,

997
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:38,000
I don't disagree with that. I guess yeah, it would be

998
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:41,360
physical to a physical world everywhere, So physics anatotally.

999
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:44,039
Speaker 3: That was on that was on Talk Evan. You called

1000
00:49:44,079 --> 00:49:47,159
in to Talk even today and you said that God

1001
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:51,599
was a mixture of sociology and physics, if I'm not mistaken.

1002
00:49:51,639 --> 00:49:53,119
You were talking to Kelly and Thinker.

1003
00:49:53,199 --> 00:49:56,320
Speaker 2: Well no, well they corrected me and said physics. So

1004
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:58,280
I'm saying physics and I was like, sure, I agree,

1005
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:01,559
I didn't say physics. State said that that's what I'm saying.

1006
00:50:01,599 --> 00:50:03,400
And I was like, all right, it's not far away

1007
00:50:03,599 --> 00:50:06,519
enough from me to disagree to that. Yeah, physically, what

1008
00:50:07,079 --> 00:50:08,360
not far away enough from.

1009
00:50:08,559 --> 00:50:09,079
Speaker 3: How does that?

1010
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:11,559
Speaker 1: How does that answer the question that I asked.

1011
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:13,840
Speaker 2: The physical world when I said, my idea of God

1012
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:17,320
the Father is the physical world, right with social structure

1013
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:19,679
on top of it. That's how it's described, and that's

1014
00:50:19,679 --> 00:50:22,559
how it really is described in the Torah.

1015
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,760
Speaker 1: In this case, right, what I asked you, I'm going

1016
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:28,079
to just repeat my question. Do you think that the

1017
00:50:28,119 --> 00:50:32,480
God character in the Bible is an accurate representation of

1018
00:50:32,519 --> 00:50:36,320
what God actually is and who God actually is?

1019
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:39,880
Speaker 2: Okay? Yeah, it's a harsh reality that we live in.

1020
00:50:40,199 --> 00:50:43,400
Speaker 1: Okay, So the God character of the Bible, Just to

1021
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:47,039
be clear, the God character in the Bible is a

1022
00:50:47,159 --> 00:50:52,719
thinking agent, someone who has authority and has abilities that

1023
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:55,760
are beyond the scope of of you know, what we

1024
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:58,480
presume is the natural world, who can do great and

1025
00:50:58,519 --> 00:51:02,159
powerful things, and you have emotions and the mind, and

1026
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:06,880
makes decisions based on whatever's going on in his emotions

1027
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:09,400
in mind. Where we're not just talking about the laws

1028
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:12,239
of the universe here like Spinoza's God, I'm asking you

1029
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:15,559
specifically about the God character in the Bible, the one

1030
00:51:15,559 --> 00:51:18,280
who speaks, the one who acts, the one who makes decisions.

1031
00:51:18,519 --> 00:51:22,400
That character you think is an accurate representation of who

1032
00:51:22,519 --> 00:51:25,159
and what God really is? That's what I'm asking.

1033
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:29,320
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, those are two well those those could be

1034
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:32,400
that could be misinterpreted by me, and I could be like, yes,

1035
00:51:32,559 --> 00:51:33,320
I think, but.

1036
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,079
Speaker 1: I'm asking what you think. I'm not asking you what

1037
00:51:36,119 --> 00:51:38,679
you've interpreted. I'm just asking you what you believe.

1038
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:41,280
Speaker 2: You know why I could misinterpret your question, is what

1039
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:41,719
I'm saying.

1040
00:51:42,159 --> 00:51:44,159
Speaker 1: I don't know how I could possibly make it more clear.

1041
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:46,119
Do you want me to restate it in a better way?

1042
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:48,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah I could. I could also say that, yes,

1043
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:51,760
it's a good interpretation of what God really is. Yes,

1044
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:55,159
that's true, right, But also it not be a fact

1045
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:59,440
because when like a physical fact, like you think of

1046
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:01,920
it as a scientist. And that's what I'm saying. What

1047
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:05,480
I'm saying is that when you are about to pursue

1048
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:08,360
something and it could work out or not work out,

1049
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:12,119
what makes it work out? And what do you need

1050
00:52:12,159 --> 00:52:14,559
to do for in order? Like what sacrifice do you

1051
00:52:14,599 --> 00:52:15,599
have to make in order?

1052
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:17,719
Speaker 3: I have no idea what you're talking about.

1053
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:21,239
Speaker 1: I say, I'm so lost is Yeah, so it's let's

1054
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,800
let's just take at face value what I think you're saying.

1055
00:52:25,079 --> 00:52:27,320
What I am tell me if I'm wrong, I'm trying

1056
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:30,400
not to misrepresent you anatotally. What it sounds like you're

1057
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:34,360
saying is that the character of God in the Bible

1058
00:52:34,679 --> 00:52:38,559
is an accurate representation of who God is, but is

1059
00:52:38,599 --> 00:52:43,119
it necessarily an accurate representation of like how God actually

1060
00:52:43,159 --> 00:52:48,760
has been. It's metaphorical or allegorical details out like the

1061
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:53,599
actual character of God hypothetically, but not necessarily literally. It's

1062
00:52:53,679 --> 00:52:56,559
as if I were to say, like like Abraham Lincoln

1063
00:52:56,639 --> 00:53:00,199
vampire Hunter the book, right, not really what abra Ham

1064
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:04,360
Lincoln actually did, but the character in the book seems

1065
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:06,920
to be a good representation of who Abraham Lincoln was

1066
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:09,079
as a person. That's that's what we're talking about, right,

1067
00:53:09,159 --> 00:53:11,559
We're talking about this. Is that a good analogy of

1068
00:53:11,559 --> 00:53:13,280
what you're talking about.

1069
00:53:13,079 --> 00:53:17,199
Speaker 2: In a sort of but not completely true fuck?

1070
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:22,440
Speaker 4: Okay, okay, So where I will agree, well, I will

1071
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:25,320
agree it's that what you're saying is basically, what you're

1072
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:28,199
saying is that since it's not a perfect representation, right,

1073
00:53:28,519 --> 00:53:31,519
then it can't be really got because it's you that

1074
00:53:31,599 --> 00:53:32,079
I agree.

1075
00:53:32,199 --> 00:53:34,719
Speaker 1: That's not what I'm saying. That's not what I'm saying

1076
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:38,599
at all. Can you can you actually, just really quick, anatotally, anatotally,

1077
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:42,400
can you please just repeat the question that I have

1078
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:43,639
been asking you back to me.

1079
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 2: Yes, is the God in the Bible actually the real God?

1080
00:53:47,559 --> 00:53:49,360
I guess the physical God a real person.

1081
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:53,039
Speaker 1: You're asking No, Okay, No, that is not what I'm

1082
00:53:53,079 --> 00:53:55,559
asking you at all. Okay, So I'm going to try again,

1083
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:57,960
and I'm going to ask you the same question again,

1084
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:00,519
and I'm going to try to phrase it a way

1085
00:54:00,559 --> 00:54:03,599
that maybe we can get across here. So the if

1086
00:54:03,639 --> 00:54:06,840
I have a book, like a historical fiction book, if

1087
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:09,679
I have a book about Theodore Roosevelt, say what you

1088
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:13,199
said earlier, because I said it, because I said it

1089
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:15,880
four times, and you clearly didn't get it. So I'm

1090
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:17,400
just going to give you a different way of saying

1091
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:20,599
the exact same thing. So, if I have a book

1092
00:54:20,639 --> 00:54:24,280
of historical fiction that talks about Theodore Roosevelt going to

1093
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:27,840
the moon, right, if the character in the book of

1094
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:32,599
Theodore Roosevelt acts the way that Theodore Roosevelt actually would

1095
00:54:32,639 --> 00:54:35,840
have acted in that situation, then I can say this

1096
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,599
is a good representation of Theodore Roosevelt as a person.

1097
00:54:39,119 --> 00:54:42,599
Not necessarily do I agree that he actually went to

1098
00:54:42,599 --> 00:54:45,800
the fucking move right, That's what I think you are

1099
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:49,039
driving at. Yes, that's what I think you're driving at.

1100
00:54:49,079 --> 00:54:49,559
Speaker 3: With God?

1101
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:52,960
Speaker 1: Is that the character of God in the Bible, the

1102
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:56,320
way God has described the actions that God takes, the

1103
00:54:56,360 --> 00:55:00,840
decisions God makes, those all sound like things that God

1104
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:03,840
would actually do. They are right up the alley of

1105
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:07,400
who God actually is as a person. That doesn't necessarily

1106
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:10,199
mean that He actually ever did those things. Is that

1107
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:15,559
what you are saying? Yes, okay, so then if the

1108
00:55:15,559 --> 00:55:18,239
then we can say exactly the same thing that I

1109
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:20,639
would be saying. You brought up slavery a minute ago.

1110
00:55:21,159 --> 00:55:23,480
Normally I would point out that the God of the

1111
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:27,639
Bible commands slavery. In the Bible, God explains not just

1112
00:55:27,639 --> 00:55:30,159
that slavery is allowed, he gives instructions on how to

1113
00:55:30,199 --> 00:55:32,800
do it. So what I can say to you in

1114
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:36,800
this situation is, even if that didn't happen, if that

1115
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:39,960
is an accurate representation of what God would have done

1116
00:55:40,039 --> 00:55:43,199
in that scenario, he's still an evil piece of shit.

1117
00:55:43,519 --> 00:55:46,760
Speaker 2: Well, the thing is that you've got to understand that

1118
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:50,840
it's from the perspective of a person living at the time. Right,

1119
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:52,639
So at the time.

1120
00:55:52,559 --> 00:55:58,000
Speaker 3: What we're not existed, right, we're not because he is now.

1121
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 1: So, yeah, slavery exists now and it's still wrong. At

1122
00:56:01,519 --> 00:56:05,760
the time Anatoly at the time, slavery was wrong, and

1123
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:09,039
God in the Bible again not saying this had to happen,

1124
00:56:09,079 --> 00:56:11,559
not saying this did happen. But the God character in

1125
00:56:11,599 --> 00:56:15,679
the Bible found the time to make very strict rules

1126
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:20,440
about disobeying your parents, about eating shellfish, about trimming your beard,

1127
00:56:20,519 --> 00:56:24,559
about planting crops, about wearing specific garments, about cutting your hair.

1128
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:28,880
He burned two people alive for putting the wrong incense

1129
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:31,239
in an incense burner. The God of the Bible is

1130
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:35,639
very clear and very able to take strict actions to

1131
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:40,639
change societies in a massive way. But instead of stopping slavery,

1132
00:56:41,079 --> 00:56:44,000
he made it happen more. He didn't just say it

1133
00:56:44,039 --> 00:56:45,440
was bad, he said do it.

1134
00:56:45,679 --> 00:56:46,559
Speaker 5: He didn't make it, so.

1135
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:49,599
Speaker 2: He didn't make it happen more.

1136
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:52,960
Speaker 3: He commanded it rules.

1137
00:56:53,119 --> 00:56:55,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, he didn't command it. What he did was he

1138
00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:59,159
gave specific rules for the society that was there at

1139
00:56:59,159 --> 00:56:59,559
the time.

1140
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:04,159
Speaker 3: He commanded it, though, didn't he not tell Moses to

1141
00:57:04,199 --> 00:57:07,519
take the Midianite girls for themselves, all the ones that

1142
00:57:07,559 --> 00:57:09,559
didn't know a man. Isn't that slavery?

1143
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:10,599
Speaker 1: That sex slavery?

1144
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:13,320
Speaker 3: And I think he said take the women into slavery, right,

1145
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:15,880
murder the men, take the women into slavery. So that

1146
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:16,840
sounds like a command.

1147
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 2: It might have been a command for that particular story, right.

1148
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:23,840
Speaker 3: Okay, So then what you just said is that God

1149
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:27,079
did not command it. Now you say God commanded it

1150
00:57:27,119 --> 00:57:28,079
maybe for that story.

1151
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:32,679
Speaker 1: What I can literally read this part of your slaves,

1152
00:57:32,719 --> 00:57:36,320
your male slaves and your female slaves, which you shall have,

1153
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:40,840
not may shall have, is what my version says. They

1154
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:43,760
shall be of the heathen around you. From them you

1155
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:46,599
shall buy male and female slaves. And it goes on

1156
00:57:46,719 --> 00:57:50,079
to say that they are your property, that you can

1157
00:57:50,119 --> 00:57:52,480
pass them down to your children. He goes on to

1158
00:57:52,519 --> 00:57:54,880
explain how to beat them. He goes on to give

1159
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:57,960
different rules for Hebrew slaves, that they can only be

1160
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:00,440
tricked into lifelong slavery, and here's how to do it.

1161
00:58:00,639 --> 00:58:04,559
Like this, God is evil, no matter what that evil.

1162
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:06,440
Speaker 2: God or society. Right, I don't know if it's the

1163
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:09,400
structure because it's two things there, Remember my God.

1164
00:58:10,039 --> 00:58:10,840
Speaker 3: No it's not.

1165
00:58:11,159 --> 00:58:14,440
Speaker 1: This is a story about a character and the character is.

1166
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:16,079
Speaker 3: Doing a thing saying my God.

1167
00:58:16,239 --> 00:58:19,360
Speaker 2: Right, what I said is my God is the structure

1168
00:58:19,679 --> 00:58:22,960
of reality and social order on top of it.

1169
00:58:23,039 --> 00:58:26,519
Speaker 1: You also said that the character of God in the

1170
00:58:26,559 --> 00:58:29,880
Bible is an accurate representation of the God that you

1171
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:32,480
believe in. So if you're saying that your God is

1172
00:58:32,639 --> 00:58:37,000
just the structure of society, then that isn't an active

1173
00:58:37,079 --> 00:58:40,199
thinking agent that makes decisions and has control over the world.

1174
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:44,000
That's just an evolutionary process involving flawed humans. And that's

1175
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:45,719
a totally different thing than what you said a minute ago.

1176
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:47,480
Speaker 2: No, no, it's not. I said the same thing I'm

1177
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:49,480
saying as God is both of those things. And in

1178
00:58:49,519 --> 00:58:52,840
that society there was slavery at the time, and the

1179
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:55,159
story didn't end there. Right, that's that's not the last

1180
00:58:55,159 --> 00:58:56,840
thing it's said, right, It was like this is how

1181
00:58:56,920 --> 00:58:57,480
you own play.

1182
00:58:57,480 --> 00:58:59,599
Speaker 3: It is the end when there's God in the Bible.

1183
00:59:00,039 --> 00:59:03,199
But yeah, it does atomatic question, yes, yeah, like where

1184
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:06,239
where does God? Where does Jesus give the command to

1185
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:07,079
end slavery?

1186
00:59:07,239 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 2: So I'm sorry, where does Jesus give the command to

1187
00:59:10,599 --> 00:59:11,280
end slavery.

1188
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:15,840
Speaker 3: God or Jesus, whoever right the gods that you worship.

1189
00:59:16,599 --> 00:59:19,440
You said, the story doesn't end there, it goes on.

1190
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:22,800
So where then does it end? Where does God fix

1191
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:25,679
that problem and say no more slavery?

1192
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:28,800
Speaker 2: Well, he says lots of things inside the book that

1193
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:31,320
eventually led to us ending slavery.

1194
00:59:31,519 --> 00:59:33,000
Speaker 3: No, no, that's not true.

1195
00:59:33,239 --> 00:59:36,000
Speaker 1: Yes, by the end of the book there is still slavery,

1196
00:59:36,159 --> 00:59:38,760
and then the book was used to justify slavery for

1197
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:39,599
long after that.

1198
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:42,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know right. What I'm saying is that it

1199
00:59:42,639 --> 00:59:46,480
was also the beginning of our moral social structure. Right,

1200
00:59:46,719 --> 00:59:50,199
it was not moral social structure. Was It was not?

1201
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:55,639
Speaker 1: No, I'm sorry, and it totally. The Bible was absolutely

1202
00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:59,000
not the beginning of moral social structure. I find it

1203
00:59:59,039 --> 01:00:02,400
absolutely ridiculous that you think that human beings lived for

1204
01:00:02,599 --> 01:00:06,519
hundreds of thousands of years and then suddenly, two thousand

1205
01:00:06,599 --> 01:00:10,320
years ago, somewhere in Palestine, some guy got crucified and

1206
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:13,239
now we all have morals like that. That's simply not reasonable.

1207
01:00:13,559 --> 01:00:16,519
Speaker 3: Well, I have a question anatotally. So let's just let's

1208
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:18,719
let's take a look at the Bible a little bit deeper.

1209
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:21,880
So do you believe that the Ten Commandments were a

1210
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:22,719
moral structure.

1211
01:00:23,039 --> 01:00:23,559
Speaker 2: Absolutely?

1212
01:00:23,599 --> 01:00:27,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well they came before Exodus, right, They came before

1213
01:00:27,639 --> 01:00:31,719
the part where where God says, you know, there shall

1214
01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:34,199
be no or there shall be slavery. So I mean

1215
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:37,639
that right there, Well, they came in Exodus, but I

1216
01:00:37,679 --> 01:00:41,000
mean that story comes comes prior to the Exodus twenty

1217
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:43,199
one the slavery, so I mean right there.

1218
01:00:43,119 --> 01:00:45,239
Speaker 1: Versus I was reading, was even Leviticus as well.

1219
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:49,679
Speaker 3: Okay, well there you go, so multiple multiple spots where

1220
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:53,679
God is commanding slavery, never once says that there shouldn't

1221
01:00:53,719 --> 01:00:56,920
be slavery. But even then, there are baselines for the

1222
01:00:56,920 --> 01:01:00,800
development of human morality, going back even to the beginning

1223
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:04,239
of Genesis where they eat from the Tree of Knowledge, right,

1224
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:06,159
and so now they know the difference between right and

1225
01:01:06,199 --> 01:01:08,920
wrong and they are like God, et cetera. That, even

1226
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:13,039
by your logic, shows that morality didn't just wait until

1227
01:01:13,159 --> 01:01:15,599
you know, the end, until Jesus was crucified or whatever

1228
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:18,519
it is you're talking about. You know, the thing I

1229
01:01:18,519 --> 01:01:20,360
have a problem with, though, the thing I'm really hung

1230
01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:23,199
up on, is that you said that the Bible is

1231
01:01:23,199 --> 01:01:25,800
the truth when you first called in and then you

1232
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:28,880
said the Bible is merely an accurate representation of God,

1233
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:31,800
but not entirely. Which one is it? And how can

1234
01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:35,039
it be both? And and to caveat on that as well,

1235
01:01:35,119 --> 01:01:38,559
or to add on that, you saying, well God, you know,

1236
01:01:39,079 --> 01:01:42,719
God is the God of the Bible, but also social structure.

1237
01:01:43,079 --> 01:01:45,880
You're casting such a wide net that nothing that we

1238
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:49,320
say can be an answer. You know, we're always going

1239
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:51,880
to be wrong because you'll have some way of reinterpreting it.

1240
01:01:52,159 --> 01:01:54,800
Why don't you just like forgive me, grow the balls

1241
01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:57,239
to have an answer, have a definitive answer, and just

1242
01:01:57,280 --> 01:01:59,760
tell us what it is you believe, and let's give

1243
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:02,239
up all this. You know, these hoops and hurdles that

1244
01:02:02,239 --> 01:02:03,280
we have to jump over and through.

1245
01:02:03,239 --> 01:02:06,639
Speaker 2: It's not a hope. What I said was that that

1246
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:09,320
was the old Jewish God. There's there's different gods in

1247
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:11,199
the Bible. Would you agree with that if you read it?

1248
01:02:11,239 --> 01:02:13,599
In fact, the certain stories are two separate stories of

1249
01:02:13,599 --> 01:02:16,719
two different cultures that team together. I'm pretty sure they're

1250
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:18,320
completely differently.

1251
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:20,760
Speaker 1: But when they agree that the God of the Bible

1252
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:24,199
is interpreted and totally is represented in totally different ways,

1253
01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:26,280
and I agree that the Bible is in no way

1254
01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:29,360
univocal about God, who God is, what God can do,

1255
01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:31,719
anything like that. So yes, a plain reading of the

1256
01:02:31,760 --> 01:02:34,800
Bible would indicate that this God character is either several

1257
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:37,000
different people, or there are several different Gods at the

1258
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:39,280
same time, or that the person writing the Bible.

1259
01:02:39,039 --> 01:02:39,960
Speaker 3: Is drunk either one.

1260
01:02:40,239 --> 01:02:43,199
Speaker 2: There's three axioms that we have. Three we learned three

1261
01:02:43,239 --> 01:02:45,840
things that our ancestors gave to us, right, and that's

1262
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:49,800
that there's social structure. That means, well, there's social structure.

1263
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:52,800
Then there's a structure of reality. Then there's the truth

1264
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:56,199
inside of it. Right, saying it out loud is Jesus, right,

1265
01:02:56,239 --> 01:02:58,920
that would be Jesus, the truth of Jesus. Jesus the truth.

1266
01:02:59,599 --> 01:03:03,119
So treak is important because it's Jesus. Saying out loud

1267
01:03:03,159 --> 01:03:06,719
is important because that's godly right. And then there's the

1268
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:09,119
Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit is the thing inside

1269
01:03:09,159 --> 01:03:11,599
of you that can learn. It's a piece that inside

1270
01:03:11,639 --> 01:03:14,159
of you that can die so that you're born in

1271
01:03:14,199 --> 01:03:18,559
you and that's learning. That's like if if half my character,

1272
01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:21,280
like if half my life right, I'm like a terrible

1273
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:23,679
drug addict or an alcoholic. I'm an alcoholic what do

1274
01:03:23,760 --> 01:03:25,880
they say just to admit you have a problem and

1275
01:03:26,039 --> 01:03:28,159
I have to like go of that part of my character,

1276
01:03:28,239 --> 01:03:30,039
but it's half my life. You think that's going to

1277
01:03:30,079 --> 01:03:30,440
be easy.

1278
01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:30,880
Speaker 3: I don't.

1279
01:03:31,079 --> 01:03:35,320
Speaker 1: I don't think anything that you just said actually aligns

1280
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:40,079
with any kind of like moral system common sense.

1281
01:03:40,159 --> 01:03:42,039
Speaker 2: I'll talk to a priest, and let's tell you exactly

1282
01:03:42,079 --> 01:03:42,519
the same thing.

1283
01:03:42,559 --> 01:03:44,880
Speaker 3: We don't want to talk to a priest. I've spent

1284
01:03:45,039 --> 01:03:48,760
enough time talking a clergy. I've been told all kinds

1285
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:51,159
of weird and hateful shit. If you were listening to

1286
01:03:51,199 --> 01:03:52,840
the beginning of the show some of the things that

1287
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:56,480
I've been told by religious leaders as a child, some

1288
01:03:56,559 --> 01:04:00,679
of the hate that I was raised with, and what

1289
01:04:00,760 --> 01:04:04,280
which was justified by the Bible, you would understand whether

1290
01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:06,199
there's no way that I would ever go to a

1291
01:04:06,239 --> 01:04:08,760
priest or, a pastor, or a clergy member of any

1292
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:11,920
kind and get any kind of wisdom, Because the problem

1293
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:14,840
with your book, right is that and I understand that

1294
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:18,039
it's a compilation of different books, but the Bible in

1295
01:04:18,079 --> 01:04:22,199
general is that the supernatural claims are not corroborated with

1296
01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:25,199
any other source. So a pastor, or, a priest or,

1297
01:04:25,239 --> 01:04:28,840
a clergy member being an expert in the claims about

1298
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:31,840
God right, is only an expert in what the Bible

1299
01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:35,280
says and not anything else that can corroborate it, so

1300
01:04:35,599 --> 01:04:38,480
they really have no expertise. It's kind of an oxymoron

1301
01:04:38,559 --> 01:04:41,719
to be a biblical expert if you use it as

1302
01:04:41,719 --> 01:04:45,519
a justification for supernatural claims. To be a biblical expert

1303
01:04:45,559 --> 01:04:48,559
and to use it as a way to talk about

1304
01:04:48,639 --> 01:04:52,239
culture of the ancient earies or talk about the formation

1305
01:04:52,679 --> 01:04:56,400
of Western society is a little bit different. What you're

1306
01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:59,480
saying these claims. Well, I don't even know if I

1307
01:04:59,519 --> 01:05:02,079
should say what you're saying, because I don't really know

1308
01:05:02,079 --> 01:05:04,320
what you're saying, because what is that right, Yeah, you're

1309
01:05:04,360 --> 01:05:06,400
jumping all over the place, and you're not giving us

1310
01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:10,239
anything definitive, and we're just kind of, you know, like

1311
01:05:10,280 --> 01:05:12,000
I said, we're always going to be wrong because you're

1312
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:15,880
always going to have some explanation instead of giving us

1313
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:18,679
a definition of this concrete and then admitting when it

1314
01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:21,599
gets torn down. You are trying to avoid that at

1315
01:05:21,679 --> 01:05:25,400
every turn and at all costs, and instead are rambling

1316
01:05:25,440 --> 01:05:27,760
all over the map. And I just don't know how

1317
01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:28,280
to take you.

1318
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:34,239
Speaker 1: It is genuinely three it's genuinely bizarre, anatotally because like

1319
01:05:34,559 --> 01:05:37,159
I've asked you, like at the beginning of this call,

1320
01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:40,000
I had to ask you the same really I think

1321
01:05:40,039 --> 01:05:42,960
basic question like five or six different times in two

1322
01:05:43,119 --> 01:05:45,719
or three different ways, just to get a halfway go

1323
01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:48,119
hear an answer out of you. And by the way,

1324
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:50,000
I don't know if the audience can hear it, but

1325
01:05:50,159 --> 01:05:53,159
I can hear it almost every single time we start

1326
01:05:53,199 --> 01:05:55,159
answering one of your questions or address them and you

1327
01:05:55,199 --> 01:05:58,000
say you keep talking for most of the time that

1328
01:05:58,039 --> 01:06:00,440
we are talking. I hear it every time. That tells

1329
01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:02,880
me why you're not understanding half of the shit we're saying.

1330
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:05,960
And when you do give an answer, it's never direct,

1331
01:06:06,039 --> 01:06:08,480
it's never what we're actually asking of you. It's some

1332
01:06:08,599 --> 01:06:11,360
weird roundabout thing. I set a second ago that I

1333
01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:15,119
think it's ridiculous to say that all us humans evolved

1334
01:06:15,119 --> 01:06:17,440
in Africa two hundred thousand years ago and needed to

1335
01:06:17,519 --> 01:06:20,880
wait one hundred and ninety eight thousand years for some

1336
01:06:21,079 --> 01:06:23,679
blood sacrifice to be able to be moral, And then

1337
01:06:23,679 --> 01:06:26,159
you gave me this weird run around of like, well,

1338
01:06:26,599 --> 01:06:28,599
there's these things that we're talking about, the Bible and

1339
01:06:28,679 --> 01:06:31,079
number one is Jesus, and you have to have this

1340
01:06:31,119 --> 01:06:33,920
because it's Jesus likes. And I can hear you talking

1341
01:06:34,079 --> 01:06:36,760
right now. That's why you're not hearing it. I can

1342
01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:40,000
hear you in the background, still fucking talking to yourself.

1343
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:43,639
I'm trying to explain to you that what you're saying

1344
01:06:43,960 --> 01:06:46,559
doesn't make any sense. I just want a straight answer

1345
01:06:46,559 --> 01:06:48,960
to a straight question, like let me ask you this.

1346
01:06:49,079 --> 01:06:53,280
Do you agree that morality, that morals, that ethics, all

1347
01:06:53,320 --> 01:06:56,599
these things are an evolved trait. Do you agree with that?

1348
01:06:57,000 --> 01:06:58,159
Speaker 2: Yes? Absolutely? Why?

1349
01:06:58,719 --> 01:06:59,360
Speaker 3: Okay, great?

1350
01:07:00,079 --> 01:07:04,360
Speaker 1: Then we don't need we don't need some fucking desert

1351
01:07:04,519 --> 01:07:07,360
war god to sacrifice himself to himself to teach us

1352
01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:08,039
how to be moral.

1353
01:07:08,159 --> 01:07:10,599
Speaker 2: Do we have to understand morality to be there?

1354
01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:14,280
Speaker 1: We are evolved with it. We are evolved with morality,

1355
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:17,360
So we are we are born with morality, and then

1356
01:07:17,519 --> 01:07:22,119
as we integrate into society, as our society grows, we

1357
01:07:22,199 --> 01:07:26,320
reason it out and develop more better moral systems. And

1358
01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:31,320
so everybody's morality is based on that evolutionary framework, coupled

1359
01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:35,079
with their intuitions based on their society, what their cultural

1360
01:07:35,119 --> 01:07:35,920
norms teach them.

1361
01:07:35,960 --> 01:07:37,639
Speaker 2: I would just say that I don't think we're born

1362
01:07:37,679 --> 01:07:39,840
with morality. I think it took a very long time

1363
01:07:40,039 --> 01:07:42,679
to they just it and understand it and write about

1364
01:07:42,679 --> 01:07:43,800
it over time.

1365
01:07:43,880 --> 01:07:45,920
Speaker 1: Okay, you think you don't. You don't think we're born

1366
01:07:45,960 --> 01:07:49,280
with morality. So you think that every baby is just

1367
01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:51,280
born a moral or immore.

1368
01:07:51,400 --> 01:07:54,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that morality has learned because it's on

1369
01:07:54,559 --> 01:07:56,000
top of us, like God.

1370
01:07:56,800 --> 01:07:59,800
Speaker 1: Okay, then how do you explain then, how do you

1371
01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:05,199
explain the fact that non human animals also exhibit moral.

1372
01:08:04,960 --> 01:08:06,679
Speaker 2: Behavior because it's intact of us.

1373
01:08:06,719 --> 01:08:08,480
Speaker 1: What does that mean we live?

1374
01:08:08,880 --> 01:08:10,679
Speaker 2: It's a system we lived. I would say it's.

1375
01:08:10,639 --> 01:08:13,880
Speaker 1: God, but you would be like, no, what system do

1376
01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:17,239
dogs live under that is somehow God that causes them

1377
01:08:17,239 --> 01:08:20,680
to make moral decisions? Or rats or monkeys or any

1378
01:08:20,720 --> 01:08:23,159
of the other animals that we have seen proto morality?

1379
01:08:23,239 --> 01:08:25,720
Speaker 2: In generally speaking, the more that they do it as

1380
01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:29,359
a society, the better they become. They work together and

1381
01:08:29,399 --> 01:08:30,039
they start.

1382
01:08:30,079 --> 01:08:31,640
Speaker 3: Are you aware of what I asked you?

1383
01:08:32,199 --> 01:08:34,119
Speaker 1: That's not an answer to the question I asked you.

1384
01:08:34,199 --> 01:08:37,439
Speaker 3: I wonder if he heard your opening, because there is

1385
01:08:37,479 --> 01:08:39,760
a whole lot of shit happening out there in the

1386
01:08:39,800 --> 01:08:43,039
world that in the societies that we live under and

1387
01:08:43,439 --> 01:08:47,399
people are being genocided, destroyed. I mean, for us, name

1388
01:08:47,479 --> 01:08:51,399
three or four key genocides happening around the world, and

1389
01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:53,840
we all live under this structure. And you're saying that

1390
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:57,079
the more we practice morality in this society, the better

1391
01:08:57,079 --> 01:08:59,279
we get at it. Yet I would say that we

1392
01:08:59,399 --> 01:09:02,359
are seeing killings on a scale that we haven't seen

1393
01:09:03,039 --> 01:09:07,399
probably since the nineteen fifties. And so that's alarming to

1394
01:09:07,479 --> 01:09:09,680
me that you think your God is in charge of

1395
01:09:09,720 --> 01:09:12,600
a system where morality is the result. Why would he

1396
01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:17,319
be so concerned with a dog, let's saying, pulling another

1397
01:09:17,359 --> 01:09:19,560
dog out of a river to prevent it from drowning

1398
01:09:19,840 --> 01:09:24,800
and give that as evidence instead of stopping a major genocide.

1399
01:09:25,000 --> 01:09:29,479
Why is the society that is your God choosing that

1400
01:09:29,520 --> 01:09:30,479
option over the other.

1401
01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:32,560
Speaker 2: What I'm saying is, I guess that's free will. I

1402
01:09:32,600 --> 01:09:35,199
don't know. If he could just show us that there

1403
01:09:35,199 --> 01:09:37,000
would be no free will. If you just knew what

1404
01:09:37,199 --> 01:09:39,000
was right all the time and you were actually born

1405
01:09:39,079 --> 01:09:41,640
with morality, I would say you have no free will

1406
01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:46,800
because you're just programmed to like you're like AI robot.

1407
01:09:46,880 --> 01:09:49,800
Speaker 1: So just to be clear, just to be clear, when

1408
01:09:50,079 --> 01:09:54,800
mice and rats exhibit proto morality and laboratory settings, we

1409
01:09:54,840 --> 01:09:58,960
can say that that's God. But when genocide happens in

1410
01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:03,479
Gaza and you in Sudan, in Congo, in China, now

1411
01:10:03,560 --> 01:10:04,640
that's just free will.

1412
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:08,399
Speaker 2: I said. No, when that happens in a lab setting, right,

1413
01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:13,880
that's them understanding, right, that there's something there that if

1414
01:10:13,880 --> 01:10:16,199
they act this way, things will be good.

1415
01:10:16,520 --> 01:10:20,640
Speaker 1: And that what are you the mice or the scientists?

1416
01:10:22,199 --> 01:10:25,640
So you think so the mice. You're telling me that

1417
01:10:25,720 --> 01:10:29,640
the mice are able to comprehend that if they save

1418
01:10:29,800 --> 01:10:32,920
their their their cage mate from a painful situation, that

1419
01:10:33,039 --> 01:10:37,039
eventually down the line, mouse society will improve in some.

1420
01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:39,880
Speaker 2: Way, not the way that you do, if that's for

1421
01:10:39,960 --> 01:10:40,479
ture asking.

1422
01:10:40,760 --> 01:10:46,359
Speaker 1: But yes, And meanwhile, the humans who are currently committing genocide,

1423
01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:48,319
they don't understand.

1424
01:10:47,800 --> 01:10:49,720
Speaker 2: That, No, they don't.

1425
01:10:50,159 --> 01:10:53,880
Speaker 1: They don't, Okay, So what's the difference then, what's the

1426
01:10:53,960 --> 01:10:58,840
difference between if someone is born without morals and someone

1427
01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:03,560
and what is the thing that makes someone understand that

1428
01:11:03,600 --> 01:11:05,600
here are the moral actions I need to take in

1429
01:11:05,720 --> 01:11:09,079
order to not be a genocidal maniac? What exactly is that?

1430
01:11:09,199 --> 01:11:13,960
Speaker 2: I mean, that's a very complicated question. The problem with

1431
01:11:14,079 --> 01:11:17,159
genocidal maniac is what they do is they fall in

1432
01:11:17,199 --> 01:11:20,359
love with a theory, right, and it makes perfect sense

1433
01:11:20,399 --> 01:11:23,800
to them. And even though it doesn't sit on reality, right,

1434
01:11:24,119 --> 01:11:27,840
the jerry mander reality into THEE theory.

1435
01:11:28,079 --> 01:11:31,920
Speaker 1: That's like, so, now, if that's the case, if that's

1436
01:11:31,960 --> 01:11:36,399
the case, if the only difference between an immoral or

1437
01:11:36,399 --> 01:11:39,640
an AMORL pardon me, if an AMORL baby can grow

1438
01:11:39,760 --> 01:11:43,239
up to be the most helpful, wonderful person in the

1439
01:11:43,239 --> 01:11:46,439
world or can turn into the most evil, vile son

1440
01:11:46,439 --> 01:11:48,600
of a bitch in the world. Right, And it's totally

1441
01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:51,239
about what theories they subscribe to and all this stuff.

1442
01:11:51,279 --> 01:11:55,800
Please explain how the insular cortex works and why it's there.

1443
01:11:56,720 --> 01:11:57,479
Speaker 3: Do I have to.

1444
01:11:57,479 --> 01:12:00,880
Speaker 2: Explain that in order to say, I mean I could

1445
01:12:00,880 --> 01:12:02,560
find out you want me to find out.

1446
01:12:02,800 --> 01:12:05,840
Speaker 1: I can tell you. The insular cortex is a part

1447
01:12:05,880 --> 01:12:10,079
of your brain, which, among other things, handles moral thinking.

1448
01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:15,119
Hand It combines when you think of nasty, rotten, disgusting food,

1449
01:12:15,159 --> 01:12:17,039
and it makes you feel sick to your stomach. It

1450
01:12:17,119 --> 01:12:19,239
is the exact same part of your brain that does

1451
01:12:19,279 --> 01:12:21,800
that that also makes you sick to your stomach when

1452
01:12:21,840 --> 01:12:25,680
you see horrible, rotten, nasty behavior. The reason why we

1453
01:12:25,760 --> 01:12:30,199
say this rapist, this pedophile, this murderer, this whatever, This

1454
01:12:30,239 --> 01:12:32,399
person turns my stomach, this person leaves a bad taste

1455
01:12:32,439 --> 01:12:34,479
in my mouth, whatever, is because it's the same part

1456
01:12:34,479 --> 01:12:36,520
of your brain that does both. So was one of

1457
01:12:36,520 --> 01:12:39,359
the reasons why we say morality is an evolved thing.

1458
01:12:39,479 --> 01:12:41,960
The same part of your brain that handles visceral discussed

1459
01:12:42,039 --> 01:12:45,199
handles moral discuss This is something that evolution has done

1460
01:12:45,439 --> 01:12:48,199
over the course of a long ass period of time,

1461
01:12:48,399 --> 01:12:50,920
and it's clearly a conserved trait that we see around

1462
01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:54,159
a lot of mammals. So I'm asking you, why do

1463
01:12:54,239 --> 01:12:57,840
you have a dedicated part of your brain that, without

1464
01:12:57,960 --> 01:13:01,760
you trying, is able to hand the moral thinking, without

1465
01:13:01,800 --> 01:13:05,600
a societal norm behind it is able to understand injustice

1466
01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:10,079
and undue harm and harm to children, all this other shit.

1467
01:13:10,359 --> 01:13:12,840
This part of your brain that you are just born with,

1468
01:13:13,159 --> 01:13:15,239
Why is that there? And how does it work? If

1469
01:13:15,239 --> 01:13:18,880
the only difference between Hitler and Ray Charles is how

1470
01:13:18,920 --> 01:13:21,840
they were raised and what theories they subscribed to.

1471
01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:24,079
Speaker 2: You know that Hitler sound Jew's disgusting.

1472
01:13:24,560 --> 01:13:26,920
Speaker 3: Are you going to answer a single fucking question on

1473
01:13:26,960 --> 01:13:29,640
this phone call? Like, what are you doing, dude.

1474
01:13:30,359 --> 01:13:32,079
Speaker 2: What I'm saying is that's not the part of your

1475
01:13:32,119 --> 01:13:35,600
brain that's responsible for the reality. Because Hitler soundews disgusting.

1476
01:13:35,840 --> 01:13:39,720
You don't kill something that way that you actually fear.

1477
01:13:40,000 --> 01:13:43,239
Speaker 1: You fear like, yeah, we're gonna talk. That's that's how

1478
01:13:43,319 --> 01:13:46,399
dehumanization works. It also isn't an answer to my question.

1479
01:13:46,680 --> 01:13:48,199
Speaker 2: It is you said that that's the part of your

1480
01:13:48,239 --> 01:13:50,600
brain that's responsible for morality. I'm telling you it's not

1481
01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:53,239
because that part of the brain was over stimulated in

1482
01:13:53,319 --> 01:13:55,800
Hitler when he saw Jew, So where's the morality?

1483
01:13:56,039 --> 01:14:00,680
Speaker 1: What you're describing is how dehumanization works, because this is

1484
01:14:00,720 --> 01:14:03,840
the same part of the brain that handles disgust and

1485
01:14:04,119 --> 01:14:07,680
all a visceral and moral discussed you there are actually

1486
01:14:07,760 --> 01:14:10,439
there you can learn about this shit. That's how when

1487
01:14:10,479 --> 01:14:13,880
we dehumanize people, and we used dehumanizing language like calling

1488
01:14:13,920 --> 01:14:18,520
people cockroaches, vermin rats, subhumans, whatever. When we use that

1489
01:14:18,600 --> 01:14:22,199
kind of language that often precedes genocide, the same part

1490
01:14:22,199 --> 01:14:24,279
of your brain lights up when you see this person

1491
01:14:24,319 --> 01:14:26,760
and yes, you are disgusted by them. This part of

1492
01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:30,000
your brain can be hijacked to make you into an

1493
01:14:30,000 --> 01:14:33,600
evil person while thinking that you're doing something good that

1494
01:14:33,640 --> 01:14:35,399
I'm trying to just get you. Do you need me

1495
01:14:35,439 --> 01:14:37,039
to fucking give you the answer that I'm going for

1496
01:14:37,199 --> 01:14:38,159
to just make it easier.

1497
01:14:38,319 --> 01:14:40,199
Speaker 2: No, I told you my answer. I disagree with you.

1498
01:14:40,199 --> 01:14:42,520
I would say that's the more part of your mind, right.

1499
01:14:42,359 --> 01:14:46,319
Speaker 1: Okay, cool, neuroscience is wrong. Great. I was trying to

1500
01:14:46,399 --> 01:14:48,720
actually play to what you were saying and give you

1501
01:14:48,800 --> 01:14:51,039
a reason to make this make half of sense. But like,

1502
01:14:51,239 --> 01:14:52,399
clearly we're not going to do that.

1503
01:14:52,560 --> 01:14:54,439
Speaker 2: It's not true. What I'm saying is it's the part

1504
01:14:54,479 --> 01:14:56,319
of the brain that lived up in Hitler. Was the

1505
01:14:56,359 --> 01:14:58,159
part of your brain you call them more part of

1506
01:14:58,199 --> 01:15:00,720
the brain, and it was over stimulated. It's something wrong

1507
01:15:00,760 --> 01:15:01,359
part of the brain.

1508
01:15:01,479 --> 01:15:03,239
Speaker 1: It's not what I said. I didn't say it was

1509
01:15:03,279 --> 01:15:05,119
the moral part of your brain. I said it was

1510
01:15:05,159 --> 01:15:07,279
a part of the brain that is, in part, among

1511
01:15:07,359 --> 01:15:10,279
other things, handles some moral thinking.

1512
01:15:10,560 --> 01:15:11,119
Speaker 2: Okay, cool.

1513
01:15:12,199 --> 01:15:15,000
Speaker 1: And I was trying like hell to give you something

1514
01:15:15,039 --> 01:15:17,520
that made fucking sense even a little bit, so we

1515
01:15:17,520 --> 01:15:19,520
can actually have something to debate about and somebody to

1516
01:15:19,560 --> 01:15:23,560
talk about, rather than just talking about whatever weird fucking

1517
01:15:23,680 --> 01:15:26,720
idea you've woken up with today. Because I still don't

1518
01:15:26,760 --> 01:15:29,119
even fundamentally know whether the God you believe in is

1519
01:15:29,119 --> 01:15:31,560
a physical guy or not. You have yet to answer

1520
01:15:31,640 --> 01:15:32,920
any straightforward question.

1521
01:15:33,319 --> 01:15:35,239
Speaker 3: Yeah. I want to get back to that, you know,

1522
01:15:35,560 --> 01:15:40,640
because adatotly you've hijacked this conversation and just kind of

1523
01:15:40,680 --> 01:15:43,319
thrown all kinds of different land mines in it. And

1524
01:15:43,359 --> 01:15:45,520
I want to ask you one thing. Okay, so you

1525
01:15:45,680 --> 01:15:49,399
brought up you brought up the two different accounts of Genesis, right,

1526
01:15:49,840 --> 01:15:53,640
they're different? Chapter one chapter two? Okay, So Chapter one

1527
01:15:54,199 --> 01:15:57,680
is God and he exists outside of the garden to bed, right,

1528
01:15:57,760 --> 01:16:01,880
he is this, this person that or this being I

1529
01:16:01,920 --> 01:16:06,640
should say that is clearly superior in every way to

1530
01:16:06,760 --> 01:16:10,840
human beings. Chapter two, however, God is as he's creating

1531
01:16:10,880 --> 01:16:14,680
the garden of Eden, is physically walking around in the garden,

1532
01:16:14,840 --> 01:16:20,439
and is a distinguishable human like creature. Okay, which one

1533
01:16:20,479 --> 01:16:20,960
is accurate?

1534
01:16:21,119 --> 01:16:23,439
Speaker 2: I heard? Would people say about what this means? But

1535
01:16:23,439 --> 01:16:25,319
if you would like, I could explain him.

1536
01:16:25,760 --> 01:16:28,479
Speaker 1: I just want you to answer, like he literally what

1537
01:16:28,479 --> 01:16:30,640
what do you think it means? When he asked you

1538
01:16:30,680 --> 01:16:32,479
a question? Do you think he didn't want you to

1539
01:16:32,520 --> 01:16:33,359
explain the answer.

1540
01:16:33,520 --> 01:16:35,359
Speaker 2: Okay, So you want me to explain with walking on

1541
01:16:35,479 --> 01:16:36,960
God because it's.

1542
01:16:36,840 --> 01:16:41,800
Speaker 3: Oh no, I don't want you to god what God means?

1543
01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:44,920
Speaker 1: What again? I'm going to ask you again anatotally what

1544
01:16:45,079 --> 01:16:46,600
question did Jimmy Junior?

1545
01:16:46,760 --> 01:16:47,439
Speaker 3: Just ask you?

1546
01:16:47,479 --> 01:16:49,920
Speaker 1: What question were you asked? Just repeat it back?

1547
01:16:50,199 --> 01:16:53,239
Speaker 2: Really okay? He asked me a really warm question. If

1548
01:16:53,279 --> 01:16:55,199
I were to ask you a question that has fucking

1549
01:16:55,279 --> 01:16:56,039
dirty words in it.

1550
01:16:56,239 --> 01:16:56,920
Speaker 6: It wasn't wrong.

1551
01:16:57,079 --> 01:17:00,000
Speaker 3: And you you are accusing of not reading the Bible?

1552
01:17:00,319 --> 01:17:01,680
What are you talking about? Engage?

1553
01:17:02,000 --> 01:17:05,640
Speaker 1: Engage your critical faculties here, take the information that was

1554
01:17:05,680 --> 01:17:08,279
given to you and summarize it in your own words.

1555
01:17:08,600 --> 01:17:10,279
Tell me what question he asked you?

1556
01:17:10,479 --> 01:17:13,640
Speaker 2: He basically said that there's two different gods. There's a

1557
01:17:13,680 --> 01:17:16,439
God that's outside of reality and then there's a God

1558
01:17:16,479 --> 01:17:19,279
that's walking in the garden. Do I believe that they're

1559
01:17:19,359 --> 01:17:21,199
the same God? I think right?

1560
01:17:21,359 --> 01:17:22,000
Speaker 3: Nope?

1561
01:17:23,600 --> 01:17:27,319
Speaker 1: Once again nope. He asked you, which one do you

1562
01:17:27,439 --> 01:17:30,840
think is real? Because they cannot be both, and I

1563
01:17:30,880 --> 01:17:33,680
think both of them? Why then then you should justify

1564
01:17:33,800 --> 01:17:37,600
that if he said which one is real? You could

1565
01:17:37,680 --> 01:17:41,479
have said both, and here's why, but you didn't. You

1566
01:17:41,640 --> 01:17:43,039
made up another.

1567
01:17:42,760 --> 01:17:45,199
Speaker 3: Question question earlier, and you.

1568
01:17:45,119 --> 01:17:48,600
Speaker 1: Are still talking. While I'm explaining it to you, I

1569
01:17:48,600 --> 01:17:49,359
already answered this.

1570
01:17:49,399 --> 01:17:51,840
Speaker 2: What I'm saying is, I don't believe in an actual

1571
01:17:51,920 --> 01:17:54,920
place that's all fucking heaven right that we were all

1572
01:17:54,960 --> 01:17:55,359
walking in.

1573
01:17:55,439 --> 01:17:57,439
Speaker 1: I believe that we have No one asked you about

1574
01:17:57,479 --> 01:17:59,960
heaven first first time I've heard that word today.

1575
01:18:00,039 --> 01:18:02,359
Speaker 2: I think that he's saying that working with you said

1576
01:18:02,560 --> 01:18:04,199
there's two different gods in the Bible, and he was

1577
01:18:04,239 --> 01:18:06,039
walking in heaven right with God.

1578
01:18:06,079 --> 01:18:09,760
Speaker 3: What's not I said, Adam, Listen, listen, listen, all right.

1579
01:18:09,880 --> 01:18:14,199
Chapter one, Genesis God is creating life from outside of

1580
01:18:14,279 --> 01:18:18,159
the garden of Eden. Chapter two, Genesis God is creating

1581
01:18:18,239 --> 01:18:22,279
life while he is walking around inside the garden of Eden.

1582
01:18:22,600 --> 01:18:24,079
Which account is accurate?

1583
01:18:24,479 --> 01:18:26,319
Speaker 2: Are you asking me if you're outside of something, can

1584
01:18:26,359 --> 01:18:28,760
you walk into it? Or what's the what's the question?

1585
01:18:29,560 --> 01:18:32,239
Speaker 1: And totally I we are at the end of the show.

1586
01:18:32,800 --> 01:18:38,079
You fundamentally lack the ability to like hear someone and

1587
01:18:38,199 --> 01:18:40,800
interpret what they are saying and answer a fucking question.

1588
01:18:41,199 --> 01:18:45,359
It's it's genuinely remarkable that someone can say something to

1589
01:18:45,439 --> 01:18:49,359
you simply, plainly and directly, and you will make up

1590
01:18:49,439 --> 01:18:52,000
another thing that you think they said and then answer

1591
01:18:52,039 --> 01:18:56,600
that it's it's fucking wild. I am actually genuinely encouraging

1592
01:18:56,640 --> 01:19:01,760
you to really just fucking try baby books about reading

1593
01:19:01,800 --> 01:19:06,199
comprehension and listening comprehension, and how to understand when someone

1594
01:19:06,279 --> 01:19:09,439
says something to you, they're saying the thing that they said,

1595
01:19:09,720 --> 01:19:11,760
not whatever the fuck you wanted them to say, not

1596
01:19:11,840 --> 01:19:14,600
whatever the fuck you think they said. Whatever they said

1597
01:19:14,640 --> 01:19:17,880
is the thing they said. That shouldn't be a hard concept.

1598
01:19:17,920 --> 01:19:20,319
I encourage you to practice with it. But then, for now,

1599
01:19:20,680 --> 01:19:22,239
it's four minutes.

1600
01:19:22,000 --> 01:19:22,720
Speaker 4: Till the end of the show.

1601
01:19:22,800 --> 01:19:24,640
Speaker 1: I think is good for us to wrap up. Jimmy Junior,

1602
01:19:24,640 --> 01:19:26,039
what do you think you want to continue beating your

1603
01:19:26,039 --> 01:19:27,359
head against this particular brick wall.

1604
01:19:27,680 --> 01:19:29,920
Speaker 3: No, I think once you're done with the baby books,

1605
01:19:29,920 --> 01:19:31,720
maybe you should read the Bible after that.

1606
01:19:31,720 --> 01:19:34,039
Speaker 1: That'd be a great place to start. Anyway, have an

1607
01:19:34,039 --> 01:19:36,279
awesome rest of your day anatotally, and again, what I

1608
01:19:36,359 --> 01:19:38,239
just said is have an awesome rest of your day.

1609
01:19:38,520 --> 01:19:40,760
That means have an awesome rest of your day. And

1610
01:19:41,000 --> 01:19:43,079
whatever the fuck you think I meant by that, who knows,

1611
01:19:43,319 --> 01:19:46,000
have a good day now, by bye, good gravy dude.

1612
01:19:46,039 --> 01:19:46,279
Speaker 2: Wow.

1613
01:19:47,560 --> 01:19:50,720
Speaker 3: I hope at least like maybe he won't admit it outwardly,

1614
01:19:51,000 --> 01:19:55,279
but I hope in some way he's questioning something about

1615
01:19:55,359 --> 01:19:58,960
what he already believes. Maybe his preconceived notions have been

1616
01:19:59,039 --> 01:20:01,920
challenged just enough that he's going to do some investigation

1617
01:20:02,039 --> 01:20:03,920
and just won't admit it to us, And I'm fine

1618
01:20:03,920 --> 01:20:04,119
with it.

1619
01:20:04,399 --> 01:20:07,600
Speaker 1: I don't think, and I mean this sincerely, I don't

1620
01:20:07,720 --> 01:20:10,920
think he knows what just happened. I don't think that

1621
01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:14,000
he understands the conversation that we just had in any respect.

1622
01:20:14,159 --> 01:20:17,239
I was trying to give him ammunition against us, and

1623
01:20:17,319 --> 01:20:20,239
I couldn't give him. I couldn't get a solid argument

1624
01:20:20,239 --> 01:20:22,720
out of him. I couldn't get a single sentence just

1625
01:20:23,000 --> 01:20:26,800
wild dude. To the person in chat who says, can

1626
01:20:26,800 --> 01:20:28,720
a car house come from nothing? The show is creative

1627
01:20:28,800 --> 01:20:31,279
or the world's created about intelligent being. You've had an

1628
01:20:31,279 --> 01:20:33,800
hour and a half to call in. We've been here

1629
01:20:34,520 --> 01:20:38,520
waiting for your call, and instead you got that guy

1630
01:20:38,800 --> 01:20:43,079
who doesn't know what questions are. So sorry, I guess

1631
01:20:43,119 --> 01:20:45,880
your God will be unheard of for yet another week.

1632
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:49,720
Jimmy Junior, my dude, do you have anything else before

1633
01:20:49,760 --> 01:20:51,239
we proceed to wrap up the show?

1634
01:20:51,760 --> 01:20:54,800
Speaker 3: Ooh, does wrapping up the show include super chats because

1635
01:20:54,840 --> 01:20:56,079
we got a bunch.

1636
01:20:56,119 --> 01:20:59,560
Speaker 1: A flip dude, Yes, it actually does. Yeah, let's do that.

1637
01:20:59,720 --> 01:21:02,079
Speaker 3: Nice. You want me to go? You got it.

1638
01:21:02,239 --> 01:21:04,159
Speaker 1: I've got some pulled up you you go first, I'll

1639
01:21:04,199 --> 01:21:05,039
do the next one.

1640
01:21:04,880 --> 01:21:08,800
Speaker 3: All right. Science Lover sent a sticker of a fox

1641
01:21:09,000 --> 01:21:11,560
hugging a heart and I love that, and he gave

1642
01:21:11,640 --> 01:21:15,399
us three hundred and forty nine Thai bot Well hello

1643
01:21:15,399 --> 01:21:16,800
to our friends in Thailand.

1644
01:21:16,920 --> 01:21:20,079
Speaker 1: Hell, yeah, then we got is it? Nick s doc

1645
01:21:20,600 --> 01:21:25,800
who sent a lemon hugging a lime fuck? Yeah, and

1646
01:21:26,319 --> 01:21:29,039
nine in good old American freedom dollars. Thank you very

1647
01:21:29,119 --> 01:21:31,079
much for that. I sincerely appreciate it now.

1648
01:21:31,239 --> 01:21:34,760
Speaker 3: Jason Jones twenty bucks, Jimmy a military intelligence analyst. They

1649
01:21:34,760 --> 01:21:37,279
called them ninety eight Charlie's when I was a ninety

1650
01:21:37,279 --> 01:21:42,720
eight golf Russian linguist. Hashtag no gods nice. I'm glad

1651
01:21:42,760 --> 01:21:45,119
we have something in common, and thank you for the

1652
01:21:45,159 --> 01:21:46,359
toty dollars.

1653
01:21:46,680 --> 01:21:48,119
Speaker 1: I don't know if I said this or not, but

1654
01:21:48,159 --> 01:21:50,159
I did drop a link and chat to a paper

1655
01:21:50,399 --> 01:21:52,960
about morality in the brain and have some cool information

1656
01:21:53,000 --> 01:21:55,199
about the insular cortex in there. So checked out ouf

1657
01:21:55,199 --> 01:21:57,199
you're interested in that there were, or if you don't

1658
01:21:57,199 --> 01:22:00,479
want to believe, like anatoty that just neuroscience is because

1659
01:22:00,560 --> 01:22:06,199
Hitler existed or whatever, then we've got Duke of Shostka

1660
01:22:06,520 --> 01:22:10,880
neat Uh sent five European money to say the logos

1661
01:22:10,920 --> 01:22:15,960
is an ingredient of rational observations. More wisdom, tweet wisdom,

1662
01:22:16,239 --> 01:22:20,840
the wisdom of Peterson. What the fuck is any of that?

1663
01:22:21,199 --> 01:22:24,640
Speaker 3: Hey, Duke of Shaska coming back with five more euros?

1664
01:22:24,840 --> 01:22:26,920
Are we a joke to you? A German tribe who

1665
01:22:27,000 --> 01:22:31,680
invented the individualistic part of Western identity? Also hope he's

1666
01:22:31,760 --> 01:22:33,600
lactose intolerance smiley face.

1667
01:22:34,199 --> 01:22:34,600
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1668
01:22:34,640 --> 01:22:36,680
Speaker 3: I don't know if I'm tracking on that one.

1669
01:22:36,960 --> 01:22:39,880
Speaker 1: I think he's talking about like, he's talking about how

1670
01:22:39,920 --> 01:22:42,560
society evolves and develops, this morality, all this stuff, and

1671
01:22:42,600 --> 01:22:45,640
that's all God. And here's this one Germanic tribe that

1672
01:22:45,680 --> 01:22:48,920
he's referencing. And also I want to throw out there

1673
01:22:48,960 --> 01:22:51,199
just like and not not to nitpick what this person

1674
01:22:51,239 --> 01:22:52,960
is saying. I think that's very but like, just as

1675
01:22:53,000 --> 01:22:57,000
from an anthropological perspective, individualism isn't even the only option. And

1676
01:22:57,039 --> 01:22:58,960
this this was wild to me, During my first Masters

1677
01:22:59,000 --> 01:23:01,159
I was in an archaeolotic theory class, and we're talking

1678
01:23:01,199 --> 01:23:04,800
about individualism and how it developed and how other societies

1679
01:23:04,840 --> 01:23:08,880
aren't individualistic. And as an American, individualism has been pushed

1680
01:23:08,920 --> 01:23:11,199
upon me as a value and an ideal so much

1681
01:23:11,439 --> 01:23:15,239
I genuinely didn't know that that was an option to

1682
01:23:15,399 --> 01:23:19,600
not do Thatdividualism is a thing where instead of saying

1683
01:23:19,920 --> 01:23:22,239
I am my own person and I represent my own

1684
01:23:22,279 --> 01:23:26,640
ideas and I'm a self made whatever adividualistic society sees

1685
01:23:26,680 --> 01:23:30,439
themselves as an extension of their community, I am here

1686
01:23:30,760 --> 01:23:33,600
as an extension, as the result of my family and

1687
01:23:33,640 --> 01:23:35,359
my friends and my neighbors and all the things and

1688
01:23:35,560 --> 01:23:37,920
the society building up for a long time leads to

1689
01:23:38,000 --> 01:23:41,600
me as the spearhead, not as the standalone person. And

1690
01:23:41,640 --> 01:23:44,199
it's a totally different way of looking at yourself. And

1691
01:23:44,319 --> 01:23:46,840
I would argue that that kind of thinking, in some

1692
01:23:46,920 --> 01:23:49,760
ways is a lot better and more moral and so like.

1693
01:23:50,239 --> 01:23:53,880
Even even what like the framework that Anatolely was coming

1694
01:23:53,920 --> 01:23:57,800
at this with, I think was just very fucking narrow

1695
01:23:57,840 --> 01:24:02,399
minded and ethnocentric. But I can only try to extrapolate

1696
01:24:02,439 --> 01:24:05,640
from the fucking nonsense he was saying I don't even

1697
01:24:05,680 --> 01:24:07,359
know if that's accurate, because I still don't know what

1698
01:24:07,359 --> 01:24:09,239
the fuck he believed, and I don't think he did either.

1699
01:24:09,520 --> 01:24:10,000
Speaker 2: Was weird.

1700
01:24:10,520 --> 01:24:13,039
Speaker 3: First time I've ever heard that God is society that

1701
01:24:13,279 --> 01:24:14,159
is on top of us.

1702
01:24:15,039 --> 01:24:17,439
Speaker 1: It would be tough also on top of mice.

1703
01:24:17,800 --> 01:24:21,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, and yeah and all other mammals. Right, I mean,

1704
01:24:21,439 --> 01:24:22,079
I don't know what.

1705
01:24:22,439 --> 01:24:29,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's not let's do genocide. Robert Roger Wenzel sent

1706
01:24:29,159 --> 01:24:31,319
ten dollars. Thank you for us for your introductory remarks.

1707
01:24:31,359 --> 01:24:32,279
Thank you for listening to them.

1708
01:24:32,399 --> 01:24:35,760
Speaker 3: Nice nice Jason Jones again another dollar? All right, I

1709
01:24:35,840 --> 01:24:38,199
appreciate that. And then Science Lover is going to close

1710
01:24:38,199 --> 01:24:39,600
it out, but I think he's talking to me here.

1711
01:24:39,640 --> 01:24:43,000
I was a ninety eight golf check small world. Oh,

1712
01:24:43,079 --> 01:24:45,319
and I guess he just finished his career off in

1713
01:24:46,319 --> 01:24:49,000
Thailand maybe and is now giving us another three hundred

1714
01:24:49,000 --> 01:24:53,079
and forty nine taibots. So appreciate all the love.

1715
01:24:53,399 --> 01:24:56,039
Speaker 1: That's very cool. Before we wrap up, I just want

1716
01:24:56,039 --> 01:24:58,439
to remind everybody please like the video and subscribe to

1717
01:24:58,479 --> 01:25:02,079
the channel, enable notifications, and comment below on your favorite

1718
01:25:02,079 --> 01:25:03,880
caller of the day. We only have the two and

1719
01:25:03,920 --> 01:25:06,159
if you say anatolely, I'll never do this show again.

1720
01:25:06,960 --> 01:25:09,840
We've got another way to support us is by sending

1721
01:25:09,880 --> 01:25:13,359
super chats. You know we've read all of them today,

1722
01:25:13,399 --> 01:25:15,319
So next show, next time you see us on screen,

1723
01:25:15,520 --> 01:25:17,760
please send you super chats and let us read those

1724
01:25:17,800 --> 01:25:20,600
as well. Join our weekly watch parties at the Free

1725
01:25:20,640 --> 01:25:23,319
Thought Library on Sundays for live viewings of Talking than

1726
01:25:23,359 --> 01:25:26,520
any eight day experience, every single Sunday now doors open

1727
01:25:26,520 --> 01:25:28,319
at noon. It's a great place if you want to

1728
01:25:28,319 --> 01:25:31,399
build community and connect with other atheists. And last, but

1729
01:25:31,439 --> 01:25:32,800
not least, we want to give a big shout out

1730
01:25:32,840 --> 01:25:34,760
to the crew who pull this show together and make

1731
01:25:34,800 --> 01:25:37,880
this whole thing happen. You guys are absolutely fantastic and

1732
01:25:37,920 --> 01:25:40,800
we quite literally it would not be here without you,

1733
01:25:41,119 --> 01:25:43,680
So thank you very much for being here. It's really

1734
01:25:43,680 --> 01:25:45,079
cool to have all of you and very cool to

1735
01:25:45,079 --> 01:25:48,840
pull this together. With that, that's the end of the show. Everybody,

1736
01:25:49,439 --> 01:25:52,079
Jimmy Junior, any words, close us out, anything to send

1737
01:25:52,119 --> 01:25:52,479
us off.

1738
01:25:52,800 --> 01:25:54,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I just want to echo what you said,

1739
01:25:55,640 --> 01:26:00,600
FIUs believers. You just let this guy represent you for

1740
01:26:00,640 --> 01:26:05,039
the last hour, So do better, do better and challenge us,

1741
01:26:05,199 --> 01:26:07,439
and you know we're not here to attack you. We

1742
01:26:07,479 --> 01:26:09,279
want to have a good conversation, so give us a

1743
01:26:09,319 --> 01:26:09,920
call next time.

1744
01:26:10,000 --> 01:26:11,840
Speaker 1: And the man on the middle of the screen with

1745
01:26:11,880 --> 01:26:14,079
his entire face in the middle of the camera, that's

1746
01:26:14,159 --> 01:26:17,560
Kelly Laughlin. Thank you so much for being our backup

1747
01:26:17,600 --> 01:26:19,039
host and for hanging out in the wings.

1748
01:26:19,079 --> 01:26:21,760
Speaker 3: I appreciate it. Thanks a lot. I appreciate it.

1749
01:26:21,800 --> 01:26:24,439
Speaker 7: You know, I've been talking to it totally, like for

1750
01:26:24,439 --> 01:26:27,199
for four days now, I think on the internet. He

1751
01:26:27,279 --> 01:26:29,119
has not answered a single question.

1752
01:26:29,600 --> 01:26:30,479
Speaker 3: It's always.

1753
01:26:33,520 --> 01:26:35,880
Speaker 7: It's every time you ask him something that you can't answer,

1754
01:26:35,920 --> 01:26:38,079
he just pivots to a different topic. So, I mean,

1755
01:26:38,119 --> 01:26:42,079
it's so really really frustrating, and I just want to

1756
01:26:42,119 --> 01:26:44,319
point out too, like one of one of the things

1757
01:26:44,359 --> 01:26:46,520
that he told me during talk Heathen for us, and

1758
01:26:46,560 --> 01:26:48,479
I was hoping it was going to get brought up here,

1759
01:26:48,640 --> 01:26:53,359
was that nobody, absolutely nobody understands evolution. And I was

1760
01:26:53,520 --> 01:26:55,520
hoping he was going to say that to you because

1761
01:26:55,600 --> 01:26:58,800
you understanding what he does.

1762
01:27:00,399 --> 01:27:03,399
Speaker 1: Call back in next time I'm hosting and just define

1763
01:27:03,479 --> 01:27:05,680
the word evolution for him. It'll be a lot of fun.

1764
01:27:06,239 --> 01:27:09,279
Speaker 7: He also told me that the Toro was the first

1765
01:27:09,319 --> 01:27:11,399
book of the Bible, so that goes to show you

1766
01:27:11,439 --> 01:27:15,399
what actually knows about the Bible naturally. Yes, And Jimmy,

1767
01:27:15,680 --> 01:27:18,079
can you do me a favor? Can you can you

1768
01:27:18,119 --> 01:27:19,960
tell your wife I said congratulations?

1769
01:27:20,039 --> 01:27:22,840
Speaker 3: Oh hell yeah, thank you. She's gonna love hearing from you.

1770
01:27:22,960 --> 01:27:27,079
And rely Forrest. If I was you, I'd be sitting

1771
01:27:27,119 --> 01:27:29,079
right there. Truth very truth.

1772
01:27:29,239 --> 01:27:32,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. Thanks so much everybody for tuning in. Thank you

1773
01:27:32,800 --> 01:27:34,760
to our producers making this show possible. Thank you to

1774
01:27:34,800 --> 01:27:37,039
our mods and chat for keeping things clean there. Thanks

1775
01:27:37,079 --> 01:27:38,600
to the people in Chat, even the ones that sucked

1776
01:27:38,640 --> 01:27:40,760
and didn't called in. Thanks to all our callers that sucked,

1777
01:27:40,760 --> 01:27:41,960
even the ones that made us want to put a

1778
01:27:42,000 --> 01:27:45,520
freaking brick through our brains. Thank you for watching, have

1779
01:27:45,560 --> 01:27:47,199
an awesome rest of your day, and never stopped learning.

1780
01:27:47,239 --> 01:27:47,840
Free Palestine.

1781
01:27:47,880 --> 01:28:00,800
Speaker 3: Bye bye, Glad, start stop around.

1782
01:28:00,880 --> 01:28:01,600
Speaker 6: You got it.

1783
01:28:05,560 --> 01:28:08,920
Speaker 3: Welcome Ellen.

1784
01:28:33,279 --> 01:28:36,600
Speaker 1: Watch Talkie Than live Sundays at one pm Central. Visit

1785
01:28:36,640 --> 01:28:39,600
tiny dot c c slash y t t H and

1786
01:28:39,640 --> 01:28:42,119
call into the show at five one two nine nine

1787
01:28:42,199 --> 01:28:44,640
one nine two four two, or connect to the show

1788
01:28:44,680 --> 01:28:54,359
online at tiny dot c c slash call th H