Speaker 1: What's up everyone, and welcome back to the program. In
Speaker 1: this episode, we're going to dive right back into the
Speaker 1: prelim hearing for Tyler Robinson. Chad Grunader, Thank you, Judge,
Speaker 1: the state moves to publish it, and if granted, may
Speaker 1: I approach the exhibit Judge graf you may, Grunander, Officer,
Speaker 1: I've asked you about a number of the buildings located
Speaker 1: on campus. I'm just going to ask you a couple
Speaker 1: of questions about those to help orient the court to
Speaker 1: what the judge is looking at, and then ask you
Speaker 1: about some of the streets in the neighborhood. Okay, answer, okay.
Speaker 1: Question for the court's benefit, can you point out where
Speaker 1: the LDS Institute Building is? Answer? Yes, I can. Question,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to approach the witness again if you
Speaker 1: could describe where it is on Exhibit thirty five. Can
Speaker 1: you hear me? Answer yes? Question Okay, So you want
Speaker 1: the LDS Institute building. Is that what you're asking for?
Speaker 1: Chad Grunader, Yes, please answer that is this white roof
Speaker 1: right here, it's the institute building. Question is that in
Speaker 1: basically the center of the exhibit? Answer, it's almost exactly
Speaker 1: in the center of the exhibit. Question okay, and where's
Speaker 1: the low C center located on that answer? If you
Speaker 1: were to go down towards the bottom of the photo,
Speaker 1: there's two different grays of gravel on this roof. This
Speaker 1: would be the low C building right here. Question below
Speaker 1: the institute building and to the right slightly answer slightly
Speaker 1: to the right. Question can you point out to for
Speaker 1: the court's benefit where the courtyard is. Answer? The courtyard
Speaker 1: is going to be to the west or left side
Speaker 1: of the picture. There are some grass in between two
Speaker 1: buildings that have white roofs. There'd be a grass area
Speaker 1: right there with some steps. That's going to be the
Speaker 1: courtyard area, and that's going to be down towards the
Speaker 1: center bottom of the photo. Question that's to the left
Speaker 1: and down answer yes, Question okay, you mentioned the parking structure.
Speaker 1: Where's the parking structure next to the institute building? Answer?
Speaker 1: The institute building is right here in the center with
Speaker 1: the right white The parking structure is going to be
Speaker 1: just over to the left of the institute or west side.
Speaker 1: There's a road in between. It's called heat Plant Road,
Speaker 1: which is the road that goes in between these two.
Speaker 1: Question And can you point out for the courts benefit.
Speaker 1: How one would enter that or exit the parking structure
Speaker 1: by way a vehicle or walking? Answer by entering. You
Speaker 1: can enter and exit right here on the north side
Speaker 1: of the parking structure. There's an entrance in an exit
Speaker 1: right here, and that's into level one. Question for a
Speaker 1: vehicle answer for vehicles question, and I guess someone could
Speaker 1: walk in there as well. Answer yes, if they were
Speaker 1: to park in the LDS Institute parking lot over here
Speaker 1: on the north side of that, there's a tunnel that
Speaker 1: goes underneath the road and still comes out in the
Speaker 1: parking structure itself, and then they can exit out here
Speaker 1: on the second level on the heat Plant Road, which
Speaker 1: is that road between the LDS Institute building and the
Speaker 1: parking structure is heat Plant. They can exit there and
Speaker 1: go back towards campus Drive. So you could walk out
Speaker 1: either up here or on the northeast side to the
Speaker 1: parking structure and cross over to the LDS Institute, or
Speaker 1: you come out here to the southeast side and you
Speaker 1: can exit there and walk down to the courtyard or
Speaker 1: behind the LDS Institute building towards the low C Center. Question. Okay,
Speaker 1: thank you. You mentioned Campus Drive. Where's Campus Drive located
Speaker 1: on that? Answer? Campus Drive starts right up here towards
Speaker 1: the top left of the picture. It's almost like a
Speaker 1: t It's the curbed road that comes all the way
Speaker 1: down in front of the institute building and the parking structure,
Speaker 1: and it goes all the way around campus, comes back
Speaker 1: down to the bottom of the picture where the roundabout is,
Speaker 1: and that would be Campus Drive. Question Okay, are you
Speaker 1: familiar with where eight hundred South is in orum? Answer? Yes?
Speaker 1: Question is that depicted on this exhibit? Answer it is?
Speaker 1: Question where's that at? Answer? It's at the top of
Speaker 1: the photo. It's going to be the long straight road
Speaker 1: that's right here at the top of the photo. Question Okay,
Speaker 1: are you familiar with that street? Eight fifty South? Answer?
Speaker 1: I am. A fifty South is going to be towards
Speaker 1: the right of the photo. Top right of it, there
Speaker 1: is going to be a street that goes east to west.
Speaker 1: It looks like a horseshoe kind of. It's going to
Speaker 1: be the road that goes east to west. In the
Speaker 1: middle of that horseshoe would be eight fifty. Question okay,
Speaker 1: eight to fifty is that parallel to eight hundred South?
Speaker 1: Answer yes, question and just blow on this photograph. Answer yes. Question.
Speaker 1: Are you familiar with six hundred West? Answer? I am? Question?
Speaker 1: And where's that street in relationship to eight fifty South? Answer?
Speaker 1: That would be on the far right side of the horseshoe,
Speaker 1: towards the right side of the picture. And it's going
Speaker 1: to be the right side of the horseshoe. Question, and
Speaker 1: that runs north and south? Answer north and south question? Okay,
Speaker 1: what about seven twenty west? Are you familiar with that street? Answer? Yes,
Speaker 1: I am. Question and where's that at? Answer? That's going
Speaker 1: to be the left side of the horseshoe that runs
Speaker 1: north and south. It comes down towards the bottom. Okay.
Speaker 1: And finally nine twenty five south answer nine to twenty
Speaker 1: five south he gets cut off by grunander. Is that depicted? Answer?
Speaker 1: It's going to be on the bottom of the horseshoe
Speaker 1: that connects those other two west question Okay, so just
Speaker 1: in summary, will you describe the horseshoe and what streets
Speaker 1: make up that horseshoe. Answer? That horseshoe comes up off
Speaker 1: of eight hundred South, and directly south of that, you'll
Speaker 1: have eight to fifty South, which is going to be
Speaker 1: running east to west. On the left side is seven
Speaker 1: twenty five west of the horseshoe, and it comes down
Speaker 1: into nine twenty five south, which wraps back around to
Speaker 1: six hundred west on the far right side of the
Speaker 1: horseshoe on the right side of the picture. Question, Okay,
Speaker 1: thank you, officer, you can be seated. Okay, I'm going
Speaker 1: to take you back to September tenth, twenty twenty five,
Speaker 1: when you mentioned you were on campus you had a
Speaker 1: particular assignment. Answer yes, Judge Graf, mister Grunender, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: We're just going to pull down the exhibits. Grunander. Okay,
Speaker 1: Judge Graf, thank you. You may continue. Grunander. Would you
Speaker 1: like me to take this exhibit down? Judge Judge Graf,
Speaker 1: Are you referring to it in your line of questioning
Speaker 1: right now? Grunander, No, I'm not, Judge Graf, Okay, let's
Speaker 1: go ahead and take it down. Grunander, you were securing
Speaker 1: the Hall of Flags walkway correct answer yes, question on
Speaker 1: the south end answer yes. Question. What was happening that
Speaker 1: morning that day on the campus at UVU. Answer. I
Speaker 1: came in to do a shift for a special event
Speaker 1: where we had a guest speaker come in and was
Speaker 1: going to talk to the students and people around the neighborhood.
Speaker 1: Question do you know that speaker was? Answer? I do?
Speaker 1: Question and who was that? Answer? It was Charlie Kirk.
Speaker 1: Question did you see mister Kirk that day? Answer? I did?
Speaker 1: Question When did you first see him? Answer when he
Speaker 1: arrived on campus just behind the west side of the
Speaker 1: Hall of Flags. I saw him pull up. Question and
Speaker 1: can someone access the courtyard through that area? Answer yes,
Speaker 1: a ken question, how so? Answer? Where he pulled up
Speaker 1: underneath the Hall of Flags is an opening to where
Speaker 1: you could drive a car underneath. There's access right there.
Speaker 1: You could walk or drive underneath the Hall of Flags.
Speaker 1: Question and you saw him arrive? Answer yes, question okay,
Speaker 1: describe what you were seeing. What did you observe? Answer
Speaker 1: on that day? I observed Charlie going back doing some
Speaker 1: meet and greet with some people, getting some photos taken.
Speaker 1: He then came underneath the Hall of Flags and went
Speaker 1: to his tent, and he was there answering questions and
Speaker 1: talking to individuals that would ask him questions. Question. The
Speaker 1: tent you're referring to, is that the tent that we
Speaker 1: see when it's set up in the courtyard. Answer yeah,
Speaker 1: that white square tent. Question with white top. Answer yes,
Speaker 1: he was under that. Question. Fast forward to about twelve
Speaker 1: twenty or so. So a little bit afternoon, the noon hour.
Speaker 1: What happened? What did you see and what did you hear? Answer?
Speaker 1: I heard an individual talking to Charlie, and I happened
Speaker 1: to glance over the edge of the railing. About that time.
Speaker 1: I could see the right side of Charlie's shoulder, not
Speaker 1: his whole body, because he was underneath the tent, so
Speaker 1: I could only see probably the right side of his body.
Speaker 1: He was answering a question. A kid asked him a question,
Speaker 1: and then I heard a shot fired. Question do you
Speaker 1: know what time that was? Answer? Yes? Question what time
Speaker 1: was that? Answer twelve twenty three? Question what did you see? Answer?
Speaker 1: At the moment, I saw him lean to the left,
Speaker 1: so I Grunadur cuts him off. When you say him
Speaker 1: Novak answers Charlie Grunadur Charlie answer yes, Charlie Kirk. I
Speaker 1: saw him go to the left because I could no
Speaker 1: longer see the right side of his body. He went
Speaker 1: further underneath the tent, to the north side of the tent.
Speaker 1: So left and that's actually badly not novak. Question Okay,
Speaker 1: can you describe the reaction of others that were there? Answer? Yeah,
Speaker 1: then everybody started getting up and started to run in
Speaker 1: more of a chaos kind of situation. Question before you continue,
Speaker 1: can you describe a little bit so you mentioned mister
Speaker 1: Kirk was answering questions, talking to individuals. Answer yes, question
Speaker 1: were were others present? Answer yes? Question any idea about
Speaker 1: approximately how many? How many would you describe in your terms? Answer?
Speaker 1: In my terms, I'd say when I was looking there,
Speaker 1: looking down, I'd say there were several thousand people because
Speaker 1: you had it on the grass and that was jam
Speaker 1: packed in the amphitheater. Sitting on the grass, you had
Speaker 1: people standing on the back up along the cement. You
Speaker 1: had people that were on the second level the hornsen
Speaker 1: and over by the Woodbury building there's another level. There
Speaker 1: were a lot of people were standing and watching, so
Speaker 1: it was pretty packed. Several thousand people. Question you mentioned
Speaker 1: you heard something. What did you hear again? Answer? I
Speaker 1: heard a gunshot? Question okay, and you described mister Kirk's reaction.
Speaker 1: Was that simultaneous to hearing the gunshot? Answer? Yes, it
Speaker 1: was grunander when he fell to the left. Answer yes.
Speaker 1: Question did you see the reaction from the crowd? Answer? Yes,
Speaker 1: question what was that? Answer? Everybody got up. A lot
Speaker 1: of people were screaming, standing up and starting to run
Speaker 1: in all different directions away from the center of the tent. Question. Okay,
Speaker 1: you're a police officer helping to secure the area. Correct answer, yes, question,
Speaker 1: what did you do? Answer? At the moment I recognized
Speaker 1: it as gunfire, I left my post, which was right
Speaker 1: there on the south end of the Hall of Flags.
Speaker 1: I proceeded to between right where the Fugal and Hall
Speaker 1: of Flags meet. There are some outside stairs that I
Speaker 1: was starting to run down. As I was trying to
Speaker 1: get down to the bottom of the stairs, people were
Speaker 1: running up, people were laying down on the steps. I'm
Speaker 1: trying to jump over people to get to the bottom
Speaker 1: of the stairs so I can help stop an individual
Speaker 1: that's probably shooting. Question what happened next? Answer? By the
Speaker 1: time I got to the bottom of the stairs, I
Speaker 1: was informed on the radio that we had a shooter
Speaker 1: in custody. I thought at the moment, I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: that was kind of fast. Obviously it was close range,
Speaker 1: probably because we had an visual in custody. Another officer
Speaker 1: came on and said, we had an individual in custody.
Speaker 1: I decided to since the threat is gone, now I
Speaker 1: can assess for anybody that's injured and start looking for
Speaker 1: any medical needs that's needed. At the moment, I started
Speaker 1: canvassing the area. As I canvassed the area, I was
Speaker 1: looking for anybody that was injured. I saw a kid
Speaker 1: on the ground that was about second or third tier
Speaker 1: in the grass next to the wheelchair, and he was
Speaker 1: almost convulsive. I thought he'd maybe been shot. Talked to
Speaker 1: the dad as I was running over there. He said
Speaker 1: that he was just having a seizure, that he was fine,
Speaker 1: he was not injured. And then at that moment I
Speaker 1: observed that there was no other injuries that I could
Speaker 1: see at the moment. Question, Okay, what was your attention
Speaker 1: drawn to anything else at that time? Answer? Yeah. After
Speaker 1: I got some people carried away a little bit, I
Speaker 1: thought I needed to start preserving the scene because we
Speaker 1: had a crime scene, and with some of my experience
Speaker 1: in training to that effect, I decided, now we need
Speaker 1: to contain the scene and I'll preserve as much evidence
Speaker 1: as we can. So I started pushing people off the
Speaker 1: grass out of the courtyard area, because I knew that's
Speaker 1: where the crime scene was. As soon as we started
Speaker 1: pushing those guys out, my chief Chief Long that was
Speaker 1: right next to me, I looked down and saw an
Speaker 1: empty pistol holder that was sitting on top of the grass,
Speaker 1: and at that moment, things that died down. Just to
Speaker 1: split second, I realized that the shot I heard was
Speaker 1: more of a rifle shot and not a pistol shot. Question,
Speaker 1: and what causes you to say that? Answer? Just from
Speaker 1: being around firearms through all my trainings. The difference is
Speaker 1: a handgun is more of a short bang pop sound.
Speaker 1: With a rifle, you have more of a longer violent
Speaker 1: bang or a crackle sound. It's more like a violent
Speaker 1: kind of sound. It's longer. That's why I recognized it. Question, Okay,
Speaker 1: does a rifle sound louder? Typically answer yes. All right, folks,
Speaker 1: we're gonna wrap up right here, and in the next
Speaker 1: episode we're gonna pick up where we left off. And
Speaker 1: that's that one hour and forty one minutes and forty
Speaker 1: seconds of the prelim hearing on day number one. The
Speaker 1: information that goes with this episode can be found in
Speaker 1: the description box,