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Speaker 1: Welcome to the One on One Podcast with your host

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one A Yala.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to another episode of the One on one

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Podcast your host. As always, make sure to follow the

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show on social media at the One on One Podcast

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on pretty much all social media platforms www dot t J,

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o JP dot com. Make sure to check out the

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Occult this Monday, how monk of this owners? Man? You

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know all that good stuff on there? You're on the

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RSS feed, Come check out the YouTube and vice versa

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of you're on YouTube. Come check out the rss feed

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and joining us today we have Ike Baker very excited

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for this conversation. What's up, Ike? How you doing, man?

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Speaker 3: I'm good, Thanks for having me on. Thanks very much.

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I've heard about your podcast for a really long time now,

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and we've got a couple of mutual friends, so it's

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good to finally meet you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've seen you around when I had reached out

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to the publisher because I actually wanted to interview. I

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think his name is Kevin Klein, I think is his name,

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but he doesn't really have any information. He published the

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John D Journals, the whole compendium of all the magical journals,

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and she's like, hey, I'll reach out to him. But

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have you had Ike on And I know I'd seen

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you on other shows before. I'm pretty sure there's been

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a you've been on Mark show. Right, My family thinks

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I'm crazy, and probably some other people too, North American

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all people.

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Speaker 3: Sky, Yes, Sky, philosophical mind stuff.

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Speaker 2: Shout out to him and so Ike, we're gonna be

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talking about some of your newest work here and I

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just want to pick your brain because you are a ceremonialist, right,

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you're practicing a cultist. You're right about the occult, the esoteric.

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But before we get into that, where can people find you?

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Because you also have a podcast. Where can they go

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check that out? And where can they find your books?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? So thanks. So the podcast is our Kanam. You

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can see it here on the bottom right or left

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corner of my screen. It's a R C A n

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v M. That's on YouTube app, Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

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I've got everything pretty much on my website. It's Ike

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Baker dot com. I K E B A K E R.

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You've got probably three or four episodes. The newest episodes

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of my podcast are available there. My blog links to

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buy the book. Also, I do part of our kanom

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is not just a podcast. It's I do documentary style

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presentations on the history, theory, and practice of esotericism. And

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so you've got some videos up there that you can

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watch some of the documentary stuff, check out some of

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the trips, the excursions, and also conferences that I've organized.

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They're all up there too, So Ike Baker dot com

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you can get a nice cross section of everything that

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I do. And the should be a little sort of

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textbox in the bottom right hand corner of the screen.

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You can click on that and write me anything that

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goes directly to my personal email. So if you have

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any questions, comments, thoughts, please feel free. I try to

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make myself as available as possible to interested parties.

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Speaker 2: Within reason, Yeah, within reason.

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Speaker 3: It can get it viral out pretty quickly.

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Speaker 2: So so you got a lot of interesting people hitting

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you up. I mean I get all kinds of sort

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of weird emails. And do you do you get the

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cryptic messages sometimes of like these people who are You're

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almost there but not quite ike? You know, like you

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ever get those people?

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Speaker 3: I well, I get grumpy messages a lot of times.

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It's from people who are big fans of alistair Crowley

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because I'm not, and so I just I call that

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a bad case of theelamitis. That's really yeah. So but yeah,

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I do get. I get some strange stuff. But I

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there's wonderful, wonderful people out there, truly, and I appreciate

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every second that they offer me, if if not in

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asking questions. And I learned stuff from people all the time,

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you know.

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Speaker 2: Right on, and I tell us a little bit about yourself.

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What got you started in this whole esoteric and occult

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realm of things, and what gave you the final push

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to actually become a ceremonial magician and start actually doing

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the do you're an actual magician. I'm an armchair ocultist.

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So we're here talking because I study this stuff all

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the time and I talk about it, but I've never

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I've done some one or two things, but nothing too crazy. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean we need both in this world. So

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that's good, and I'm happy to be in dialogue. That's

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kind of where I find myself. I am in dialogue

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with you know, the occult enthusiasts, the occult researchers, practitioners,

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non practitioners, and academics. I work a lot in academia.

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Tons of stuff coming up this year but also last year,

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so that I feel privileged to be able to have

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this kind of omnidirectional conversation going with everybody at the table. Now,

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I've told this story before on other podcasts, but for

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your audience, I'll tell it again. I had studied, you know,

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kabbala astrology, thing alchemy. I was very interested in how

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cryptic alchemy was as a kid. Started studying this stuff

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probably when I was like eighteen, you know, two thousand

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and four, two thousand and three era. But the thing

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is that what was available to a kid like me

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in the Long Island suburbs in New York was kind

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of like this Dan Brown occultism, you know, And so

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that's really what I based a lot of my study

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on Internet research and stuff like that. I wasn't familiar

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with that world just yet. So at around nineteen or twenty,

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I remember my aunt had a tenant and this lady

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was very nice and she was very quiet, but she

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threw herself in front of a train and my aunt

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called me over and she said, hey, it turns out

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that this lady was a hoarder and I need help

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emptying the apartment, and so there were stacks of books

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like you'd see in like a TV show with you know, pathways,

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and a lot of the books, journals, stuff still wrapped

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in the cellophane. So we're hauling this stuff out and

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this book, this one book cover just grabs my attention

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and I pull it out and it's the title was.

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I got it right here on my bookshelf. I still

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have it, the book The Oracle of Kabbala by Richard Sideman.

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And so I flipped through this thing. I read it

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in a day walking around my neighborhood. I wouldn't say

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that I was any more educated on Kabbala than from

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my previous studies, but something struck me and said this

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is important. So I went on the yellow or white

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Pages or something like that when people used to use

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that on the internet, and I typed in Long Island

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Kabbala Study Group. So gentlemen's name and information came up.

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I emailed him. I said, hey, I'm really interested in

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the Cabala Study group and he said, well, that thing

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doesn't meet anymore, but there's this other thing. And the

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other thing was the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn.

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And I started having this back and forth interviewing courtship period.

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I was also a musician and so I spent a

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lot of my time out on the road playing shows.

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And it was really a crossroad moment for me because

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I met these people and I wasn't sure what the

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heck magic was, you know, like, what do they think

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they're doing? Like Harry Potter wand wavings? This seems insane.

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So I decided to go back out on tour, and

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I was actually I flaked out. I really was like

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a typical millennial flake for that age. I no call,

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no show to my first initiation, and as life would

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have it, maybe seven or so years later, my life

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completely fell apart. I had a really what I guess,

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what we might call a tower card experience. Just the

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whole sand castle got kicked down by providence, I guess,

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And as devastating as that was, I really for something

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in my gut told me to reach back out, and

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I did, and I said, look, I'm really sorry, but

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I feel like this is my calling. Otherwise I wouldn't

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come back here hat and hand like this, and I

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don't even know why. So they ended up reinitiating me

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and or really recording me reinterviewing me and then finally

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initiating me, and the rest is history. You know, I've

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been in the Order now for just about a decade,

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and I am a I run the Ashville Temple of

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the Hermitic Order of the Golden Dawn. I'm the imperiator

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of that temple and an administrator and a senior adept.

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So that's how I got started, really very interesting. It

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was almost like a tractor beam situation. I wasn't sure

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what I was headed towards, but it put me in

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a really good position because I didn't have a head

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full of stuff that I was constantly pretty rejecting onto

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what this needs to be or what this should be,

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and trying to stuff the shoehornet into this neat little

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box that fit my preconceptions and expectations. My you know,

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unfamiliarity with it allowed the system to reveal itself to

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me and show me what it was instead of me

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kind of constantly jumping the gun. So I'm I actually

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am lucky.

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Speaker 2: I think, you know. The the way I got involved

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with the occult and occultism, esoteric and all this other stuff,

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it was a gat my my religious upbringing because I

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was always told to stay away from it, right. Do

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you think maybe that lady she did she have any

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other occult books? Did the occult push her to the

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brink of doing what she did?

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Speaker 3: Well? She was she was Jewish, So I think that

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that explains the Kabbala book because there were a few

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other Kabbala books, like she might add like a version

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of of Matt's Zohar one of the additions or volumes.

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But I didn't see anything else at the time that

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was like astrological or alchemical. But I mean we're talking

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a long time ago. It could have been the case.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because that's something like I've been told, you know,

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don't read the Book of Enoch. That's going to possess you.

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And the latest one I heard was I was like,

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why is the Old Testament so different than the New Testament?

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And they were like, just disregard the Old Testament completely.

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I was like, what, that's the canon? Like what do

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you mean? So I always had this shroud over it.

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And I also am a musician. I played a lot

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of years guitar in church. So I've seen miracles, I've

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experienced the Holy Spirit, I've seen supernatural things, so I

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know that there's something there. My question to you is

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again a very elementary question, but I always like to

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get the perspective of actual people who dabble into it.

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What is magic? Is it real? Is it make belief?

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Because I'm in the middle, I think that there are

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some real aspects to it, and the more I look

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into it, A lot of the occultists, and I'll use

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the example one of the latest ones Johann Veyer that

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wrote the Pseudomonarchia that kind of did in a satirical way, right,

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And then before that I had count of Gabalias where

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his work was supposed to be making fun of like

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the occult of the time. But then Manly p Hall

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and Blovatski took it and all these other you know,

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prominent occultists took the work and took it serious. So

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where do we stand? I mean, those are more recent examples.

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But what is magic? Is it a system? Is it

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a force?

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Speaker 3: Like?

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Speaker 2: What exactly is it? To you? At least?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it's interesting. That was my first really you know,

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several years ago when I decided, hey, you know what,

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I'm going to throw my hat into the ring and

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start talking about this stuff because of how really crazy.

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Everything was seemed on the internet with you know, young

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kids doing sort of goetic demonic evocation massive Reddit threads.

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I'm like, this is not healthy, I don't think because

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here's the crux of the matter. If magic is real,

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now there are certain forces at play that we, I

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personally believe we are looking at from a perspective that

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obscures what it is. It'd be like, well, I know

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that's a guy. I know that this is a person

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sitting in front of me, but I only see the

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back of their head. You don't really get a good

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sense of you know, the definitive the defining features of

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the face, the voice, the mannerisms, you know, that kind

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of thing. And a lot of us are looking at

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it from this perspective because it's essentially the forefront of consciousness,

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you know, consciousness experiments. And I'm not talking about necessarily

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that whole rond to burn the secret sort of thing.

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That kind of stuff really rubs me the wrong way.

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I think there's a lot of damage done to things

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like magic by way of the New Age and stuff

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that came out of you know, post Blovatskian and some

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Blavatskian theosophy. But it is. It is predicated on this

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idea that the operator is a universe in miniature. And

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what does that mean. It basically means if you look

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at the you look at the universe. The universe has

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to be from a certain vantage point taken as a whole.

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We don't know if it's finite or infinite, definitely, most

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people think it is to some degree finite. But all

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the multiplicity, the different solar systems, different galaxies, the black holes,

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life known and unknown, all that multiplicity is contained within

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that sort of you know, monatic structure of this is

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a universe. It is a whole with many moving parts.

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And we just like anything else, really, we are tiny

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organisms within the greater hole. But that relationship is mirrored.

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We are a single unit, a universe with many moving

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parts and many constituent organisms. And so there is a

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relationship there, a reciprocity that allows magicians to call forth

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certain aspects. Right, I don't have a planet in me,

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I don't have Mars inside of me, but I'll tell

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you I have anger, and I have aggression, and I

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have energy, and I have courage, you know, And that

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Mars within this seems very psychological, that Mars within, can

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be roused, can be brought to the forefront of my

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my miniature universe, my microcosm. We have a term for

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it in Western ceremonial it's called the sphere of sensation.

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So it's the it's the outer boundary of the aura,

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inclusive of everything else. Your body, your energy, meridians, your thoughts,

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your emotions, your you know, psyche, all of that is

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inclusive in your tiny microcosmic universe. And so we select

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in magic. We we it's very specific. It's not mysticism.

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We don't open open up and let whatever you know,

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or mediumism, i should say, and just kind of haphazardly

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summon things or or allow things to enter into us

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because we're at a severe disadvantage when operating with things

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on the quote unquote other side of the veil. We

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can't there's no guarantee they're going to show us a

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true form. So we do the best that we can

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in being hyper selective and hyper specific in that selection.

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And so we use things like color and sound and

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names and words and sense right incense and things like

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that to rouse this quality, this specific force within our microcosm.

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And then to the degree that we're able to raise

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that one particular let's call it vibration or motive thought,

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motive being to the forefront of this the universe. We

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can then call the corresponding forces in the exterior universe

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almost like a vacuum, like a like a whirlpool, gaining

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what David Rankin has called magical momentum. And that's a

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big part of it. And you've got some people on

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one side of the fence that say, hey, well, I'm

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a goetic or I'm a solomonic magician, and you know

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you're a golden Dawn and you know, I mean I

285
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even work you know, theorgy out of the calleda and

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oracles and reconstruct this stuff from the PGM. And they're

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very quick to say, well, but we summon spirits. It's

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not us consecrating something, consecrating italisman, it's the spirit consecrating it.

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And the thing is, you know, all of these disembodied

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intelligences have an objective reality, but you access them that

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Our access points are all within here, it's all within

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our psychology, the psyche, and those entities, those spirits, they

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don't have physical body. I can't ask them to take

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me to the DMV in a car the way I could,

295
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you know, to have my fiance or my friend drive

296
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me to the gym or something like that. You know,

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they can't do that. Why because they don't have solidified

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physical forms. They are an intelligent energy. And so at

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the end of the day, your consciousness is making contact

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the part of you that is transcendent of the physical,

301
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your sort of you know, uh signal, your your intelligent energy,

302
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which is located for the time being in your body

303
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and wherever you are in the world, is making contact

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with those disembodied intelligent energies and and interplay and interacting

305
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with them. And so really we're at the forefront of

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consciousness here. You know, we have put something that is

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very very large into an extremely small box for a

308
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very long time. And I think some of that is

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somewhat intentional from the powers that have been that that

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are now and have been for centuries.

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Speaker 2: Is it an aspect of the occult? And I was

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reading a book by a pupil of Eugene Consalia, which

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was a pupil of a Falconelly, right, the infamous Fulconelly,

314
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And there was something, I forget the name of the book.

315
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There was something in the book you said where when

316
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you're looking at this thing, the occult or any of

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00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:05,599
these topics, that it will quite literally morph in front

318
00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:09,279
of you, and it's in an almost elusive fashion. And

319
00:20:09,319 --> 00:20:13,039
I've experienced that myself where sometimes you think you've got it,

320
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,480
you know, you're hitting the nail on the head, and

321
00:20:15,519 --> 00:20:17,720
then when you go to strike again, the nails moved,

322
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you know, a foot that way, and you go, wait

323
00:20:19,839 --> 00:20:22,640
a minute. It just clicked for me. It made perfect sense.

324
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And do you think that the that since the occult

325
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and all this stuff is more readily available to people.

326
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Now you're talking about Reddit, which I'm sure there's a

327
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bunch of crazy stuff on Reddit, right, the stuff that

328
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,319
you eat on there? Do you think that that is

329
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an aspect of the occult, that it's always kind of

330
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sort of changing in morphing. And are there characters at

331
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play who muddy the water's on purpose in order to

332
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kind of move people away from the truth with a

333
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,240
capital T or the source or something. What are your

334
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thoughts on that?

335
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Speaker 3: I would say that the more in line, the more

336
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:08,599
firmly centered in the path I am, the more is

337
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i would say, demonstrable, empirical and agrees with the insights

338
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of many other adepty over vast centuries. For instance, I'll

339
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give you this example. I didn't start out as an

340
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academic occultist. I just wanted to do the practice, okay,

341
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and the and that's that's kind of the temple culture

342
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I was. I came up in when I was being

343
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trained in the Aromatic order of the Golden Dawn. The

344
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:39,799
temple culture was if it works, use it, do it,

345
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you know, do it safely, but do it. Son. I

346
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remember the first time that I had an encounter with

347
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really an entity, and that encounter took place in a

348
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visualization exercise, and for many, many years I couldn't figure

349
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it out. And I have these experiences repeatedly, but the

350
00:22:02,079 --> 00:22:08,000
first time was the most jarring, existentially startling. When you

351
00:22:08,079 --> 00:22:13,000
can watch something that you thought was part was being

352
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projected or generated or emanated by your own imagination take

353
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on completely a life of its own and with a

354
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species of autonomy and a level of vitality. Life in

355
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,640
its eyes, in its inspression, in its expression. It completely

356
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dominates the scene. You can't you have no idea what

357
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,200
it's going to say next, what's going to do next?

358
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How did this happen? You're thinking to yourself, I am

359
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:41,880
not thinking this. So fast forward. You know I have

360
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these you know, you learn how to do that stuff

361
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,559
safely and control it, and you bounce ideas off of

362
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people when you're in an order right and thoughts. That's

363
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,680
the great part about it is there's this support system

364
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,720
you can talk to each other about. You know, have

365
00:22:53,799 --> 00:22:57,440
you had an experience like this? Sure enough most people have.

366
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So fast forward to years later, and I decided to

367
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get more academic, and I'm reading the works of the

368
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Neoplatonists of the second, third and fourth century CEO. Okay,

369
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we'll talking almost two thousand years ago. And in this

370
00:23:13,079 --> 00:23:18,519
one particular book, Deanima on the Soul, written by the

371
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by the Neoplatonic philosopher Iamblicus of Kalkis, he was like

372
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the for anybody that knows theorgy, the idea of theurgy,

373
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ritualized spiritual assent, he's the godfather of it for all

374
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,640
intents and purposes, on the on the historical record. So

375
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what he writes is the mind and attention follow what happens,

376
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but essentially they are not seized by divine inspiration. Only

377
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the fantasia, the imaginal faculty, has the capacity to be

378
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seized by the god or the entity right the angel

379
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Aguilois the messenger and moved. But the mind and attention

380
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:06,400
follow what happens. So he's describing almost two thousand years

381
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:08,519
before I had no idea who I probably had this

382
00:24:08,599 --> 00:24:11,160
experience a hundred times before I knew who he Amblicus was,

383
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and he's saying exactly what I experienced. This this autonomy

384
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,759
that happens in the imagination. And the only way I'd

385
00:24:18,799 --> 00:24:21,680
be able to say, I am not thinking this is

386
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:27,440
because my mind and attention was following the fantasia, the

387
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images that I had generated but had been seized by

388
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something other than myself, Because that is the level where

389
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:40,079
we all coexist, us, the gods, the angels, the demons.

390
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,720
It's all on the astral you know it's and we

391
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:49,400
are the most poised to create change here. So now,

392
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,799
if you want, if you want to create change on Earth,

393
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,240
you'd better get in touch with the human that's your best.

394
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,640
You'd better, you'd better hijack, co opt whatever it is,

395
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,400
find a human and to do your to do your will.

396
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,440
That's the dangerous part about magic. So the thing is

397
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,359
for me, it doesn't really morph because I've been in

398
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:16,400
it and the key component of being able to have insight,

399
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:18,799
and I talk about this in the preface to my

400
00:25:18,839 --> 00:25:21,839
book A Formless Fire that came out last year. A

401
00:25:21,839 --> 00:25:25,000
lot of people think insight is like the accumulation of stuff,

402
00:25:25,839 --> 00:25:27,880
you know, I got to think about it and analyze.

403
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,039
Insight at this level that we're talking about is the

404
00:25:32,079 --> 00:25:38,880
removal of stuff, the removal of you know, ideation of

405
00:25:39,079 --> 00:25:43,599
on certain things, and and analysis. It's being able to

406
00:25:43,799 --> 00:25:50,960
see clearly what is and not have this, you know,

407
00:25:51,079 --> 00:25:54,559
let's call it cognitive dissonance. The only reason cognitive dissonance

408
00:25:54,599 --> 00:25:57,279
is the thing is because we have been trained that

409
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,480
this stuff can't and shouldn't happen, shouldn't be able to happen.

410
00:26:02,319 --> 00:26:04,640
And so yeah, that's going to create cognitive business. But

411
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,640
the role of an adapt and initiative magician is to

412
00:26:08,759 --> 00:26:12,119
hold the opposites in balance and not let one overtake.

413
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:16,480
So my subjective and my objective realities have to do

414
00:26:16,519 --> 00:26:19,319
this dance. And it's okay that there's not a resolution.

415
00:26:19,799 --> 00:26:24,400
I'm the resolution. I'm the mediator between the two. Again,

416
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,160
it's another reason why magic can be tricky, because you've

417
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,240
got to have a really firm grasp on reality and

418
00:26:30,319 --> 00:26:32,759
know how and when and for how long to let

419
00:26:32,799 --> 00:26:36,119
yourself go into these more subjective realms, and how much

420
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:40,839
space to give those things in your life. Now, the

421
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:46,559
thing that really gives the insight is practice, practice, practice, practice.

422
00:26:46,599 --> 00:26:49,559
When I and still I mean, doing this stuff for

423
00:26:49,599 --> 00:26:53,119
twenty years and I still read my research and it's

424
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,839
almost like this this strange thing. It's like, I'm I'm

425
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,319
I feel like I'm on raveling a mystery when I'm researching,

426
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,799
and I'm getting closer and closer and closer. And what

427
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:10,440
happens is it's attention that never resolves because what I'm

428
00:27:10,559 --> 00:27:13,799
trying to learn has to be experienced. It can't be

429
00:27:13,839 --> 00:27:17,119
written or talked about. You can write and tell you

430
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,720
about how to get to the experience, but we can't

431
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:22,799
write anything about the experience itself.

432
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,640
Speaker 2: I love that because it is that right how you're

433
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:33,640
saying it's phenomenological in nature, because you know, when someone

434
00:27:34,279 --> 00:27:37,960
was abducted by aliens, it was real to them, whether

435
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:39,519
you believe it or not, and they're the ones that

436
00:27:39,599 --> 00:27:42,279
experienced it. And it's like I've always used the example

437
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,720
of when you look at your firstborn son for the

438
00:27:45,839 --> 00:27:48,880
very first time and you feel that love, that just

439
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:53,319
crazy feeling that you're like, oh my god, this is crazy.

440
00:27:53,599 --> 00:27:58,000
I can't describe that to anybody unless they felt it themselves, right.

441
00:27:58,079 --> 00:28:01,279
It's an experience that need it's it's a phenomenon that

442
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,519
needs to be experienced and it can't be described. And

443
00:28:05,559 --> 00:28:07,920
that's something that I struggle with when you know, researching

444
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,000
all this, a lot of times I ask myself, like,

445
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,680
what is all this for? And does it all matter?

446
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,839
And where does it resolve how you're saying, And it's

447
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:18,519
going to eventually get to a point where it's like

448
00:28:18,559 --> 00:28:20,720
you can read all about it all you want, but

449
00:28:20,759 --> 00:28:23,160
you're gonna have to, you know, put a intent across

450
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,039
the abyss and pass on to the next side to

451
00:28:26,039 --> 00:28:30,119
actually experience what it is that we're reading about, because

452
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,079
that is part of it. And it makes a lot

453
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,000
of sense too that you would need to be training

454
00:28:35,039 --> 00:28:38,759
and practicing and you know, after you're initiated to hone

455
00:28:38,839 --> 00:28:42,039
in on that skill. And I was going to ask

456
00:28:42,039 --> 00:28:45,640
you a few questions, so you said earlier, it's sort

457
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,279
of in your head. Your consciousness is contacting these things.

458
00:28:48,279 --> 00:28:51,359
We know that we don't understand consciousness. You know, from

459
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,839
a human perspective, we don't know what it is. We

460
00:28:53,839 --> 00:28:56,039
don't know what it means. It's just there, is it

461
00:28:56,079 --> 00:28:58,920
the human experience? Like? What is it? And I know

462
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,920
you don't like Crowley? But was Crowley onto something when

463
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:03,680
he said it's all you know, well, he said the

464
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,519
goetia was sort of in your head and it was

465
00:29:05,559 --> 00:29:08,400
different parts of your brain. Was he kind of sort

466
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,519
of hinting at that that it's all in in your head?

467
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,599
Or was he trying to lead people astray?

468
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 3: I had found I have found that.

469
00:29:18,799 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 2: Uh.

470
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 3: I don't think Crowley believed it was all psychological. I

471
00:29:28,519 --> 00:29:32,160
think that Crowley often And I'm not one of these

472
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,480
people who doesn't like Crowley because of some one off thing.

473
00:29:35,519 --> 00:29:39,759
I've read most of his works. His poetry is the equinox, is.

474
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,359
Speaker 2: The you know, hey, it's okay, all that stuff.

475
00:29:43,519 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I grew to hate him. I didn't hate him

476
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:48,799
when I started out, and I realized that this guy,

477
00:29:48,839 --> 00:29:51,680
this guy's a great example of that he doesn't understand

478
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,359
what he believes because he would oscillate so much. He

479
00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,599
was so obsessed with this idea of you know, he

480
00:30:00,799 --> 00:30:07,319
was like this devout lover who relinquished himself and sacrificed

481
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:11,559
everything for the attainment of Samadi and his higher genius,

482
00:30:11,839 --> 00:30:14,160
or as he called it, the Holy Guardian Angel. And

483
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,240
then he'd go spend a week in a brothel and

484
00:30:17,279 --> 00:30:21,400
he called that balance, my friend, that's not balance, that's extremes.

485
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,480
He was an extreme person, and I believe he had

486
00:30:23,839 --> 00:30:27,079
extreme highs, extreme lows. There were times where he was

487
00:30:27,119 --> 00:30:29,160
sure of something then he was And he's a really

488
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,119
good example of what not to do when working these

489
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:37,319
initiatic trajectories, because I know he came from a system

490
00:30:37,519 --> 00:30:41,480
that said, we're not right hand or left hand. We

491
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,759
are middle path. We're middle path magicians. So there's got

492
00:30:45,799 --> 00:30:49,079
to be that dynamic equilibrium, right where instead of going

493
00:30:49,119 --> 00:30:52,599
like this across the tree of life from from severity

494
00:30:52,599 --> 00:30:57,519
to mercy, severity to mercy and spending a millisecond crossing

495
00:30:57,559 --> 00:31:01,599
the center, we have to find a didynamic equilibrium and

496
00:31:01,759 --> 00:31:03,680
work our way up the middle pillar. And that's the

497
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,599
path of mildness, really, and that is the point of

498
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,200
balanced power. And he was not that kind of initiate.

499
00:31:11,279 --> 00:31:14,319
And as a matter of fact, you know, he he

500
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,759
actually most of the all of the adepty of the

501
00:31:18,799 --> 00:31:21,079
Temple of which he was a part in London, refused

502
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,960
his admission to the Inner Order, and so you know,

503
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,559
you're not that type of guy. And but I do.

504
00:31:28,319 --> 00:31:32,480
I do think that at some points he believed it

505
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,279
was psychological, and then he had experiences that showed him

506
00:31:35,319 --> 00:31:39,039
that it wasn't just psychological. And that's that's a definitive

507
00:31:39,079 --> 00:31:43,359
moment for every magician, when you get to see if

508
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,920
you actually believed in this all along. You know, it's

509
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,839
like whoa that that happened? You know, like I so,

510
00:31:52,039 --> 00:31:55,559
and some people run away screaming. But I think that, yes,

511
00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:00,839
there are access points in our microcosm. Young The best

512
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,200
way to think of it is in a Jungian context,

513
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,519
because he said, Okay, we have a subconscious, and then

514
00:32:06,559 --> 00:32:11,920
we have an unconscious, and our personal, our individual unconscious

515
00:32:12,359 --> 00:32:16,599
is actually a doorway to the collective unconscious, and the

516
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:21,799
collective unconscious is the realm of the archetypes. And so

517
00:32:22,359 --> 00:32:28,319
we have access points in our microcosm two things that

518
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:33,160
have an objective reality, they have an existence of their own.

519
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,599
I'm I would say that this theory is probably the

520
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:44,119
most popular among magicians throughout history. I would say serious

521
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:49,000
occultists today practiced, experienced occultists know that there is no

522
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:54,640
accounting for this stuff in any totally psychological model. It

523
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:59,799
defies belief, probability, what have you. And then on the

524
00:32:59,799 --> 00:33:04,759
other hand, you do have to dig deep into your

525
00:33:04,799 --> 00:33:08,160
own psychology in order to work any of this stuff.

526
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,880
Otherwise those things on the other side will just be

527
00:33:12,039 --> 00:33:13,119
using you like a puppet.

528
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 2: Speaking of being used by puppets and a connection with

529
00:33:18,319 --> 00:33:19,839
Young two, I was going to ask you what your

530
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,759
thoughts on Young were, because he was one of those

531
00:33:22,799 --> 00:33:26,039
ones that really took the dive from an academic perspective

532
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:28,759
sort of thing and mixing the occult in with that

533
00:33:28,799 --> 00:33:32,160
and one of my favorite concepts, right, we have the

534
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:36,640
active imagination. And there was another guy, Henry corban I

535
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,680
believe it was, who talked about the mundus imagine analysis, right,

536
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,039
and you're talking about these things on the other side

537
00:33:43,119 --> 00:33:46,039
playing you like a fiddle, and you had John Dinawarod

538
00:33:46,119 --> 00:33:49,079
Kelly kind of experiencing that too, where they were using

539
00:33:49,119 --> 00:33:52,559
their system to contact these entities that at the end

540
00:33:52,599 --> 00:33:54,960
of the day were like, hey, you want to learn

541
00:33:55,039 --> 00:33:57,319
the secrets of the universe, boys, you got to swap

542
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:58,960
your wives, Like what wis?

543
00:33:59,119 --> 00:33:59,279
Speaker 3: Right?

544
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:01,079
Speaker 2: Oh you know so.

545
00:34:01,799 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 3: Uh.

546
00:34:02,079 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 2: The mundus imaginealysis have been a concept that's really intrigued

547
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,920
me for a long time. Where the way to describe

548
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:13,039
it is where it's this middle realm, right, and it's

549
00:34:13,039 --> 00:34:17,480
an autonomous realm between the real and the unreal, and

550
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,599
it gushes forth from your consciousness and these things come forth,

551
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,480
and you know, people say that that's where angels come

552
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,800
from and all these different things. Would you say that

553
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:32,679
active imagination is a crucial thing in the occult any

554
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,239
practice because you're saying about visualizing things.

555
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll say this. It's because it's a very good question,

556
00:34:38,639 --> 00:34:42,039
because it gets to the heart of something here that

557
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,239
other questions on this line of reasoning are too vague

558
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:53,960
to address. Active imagination is extremely important if you're gonna

559
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,840
have a hard time as a magician if you can't

560
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,519
visualize things and hold them there and not only visualize

561
00:35:00,559 --> 00:35:02,519
them with your eyes closed, but visualize them with your

562
00:35:02,519 --> 00:35:07,159
eyes open. Now that active imaginal realm. I wouldn't say

563
00:35:07,159 --> 00:35:10,000
that's where angels come from. I wouldn't say that's where

564
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,400
demons come from. I wouldn't say that's where gods come from.

565
00:35:12,639 --> 00:35:16,239
I'd say that's where the forms that they use to

566
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:20,320
communicate with us come from They come from that in

567
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,199
between realm that burgeons forth from the mind and like

568
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:28,119
a hand slipping into a glove, but the glove's gotta fit.

569
00:35:29,079 --> 00:35:32,599
It can't be something completely inharmonious with their essential nature.

570
00:35:33,119 --> 00:35:35,719
They don't work like we do. They don't have free will.

571
00:35:36,119 --> 00:35:38,440
We have free will. That's why I, you know, I

572
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:43,000
can you know, be fat one day, skinny the next day,

573
00:35:43,039 --> 00:35:46,199
and it's you know, there's there's like a logical sequence

574
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:50,199
in between the two. These things don't really have a

575
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,280
species of free will to the degree that human beings do.

576
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,039
That's why it's extremely unique to be a human being.

577
00:35:58,599 --> 00:36:03,440
But they will communicate with us in given that we

578
00:36:03,599 --> 00:36:07,679
formulate the right glove, so to speak, you know, the

579
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,320
right form. And that's a big part of Golden Dawn.

580
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,039
In other forms of Kabbalistic magic is the assumption of

581
00:36:14,079 --> 00:36:17,960
God forms and the creation of what we call telismatic images.

582
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,559
And it's exactly that kind of what we call in

583
00:36:22,599 --> 00:36:28,280
the Greek tradition m sichosis, the insulment of that image.

584
00:36:28,679 --> 00:36:31,800
That is what I experienced in the Fantasia, and as

585
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,440
Henri Corbon called it also he coined this phrase, or

586
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:39,800
at least popularize it the imaginal faculty instead of calling

587
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,079
it imagination because that has like this stigma to it

588
00:36:43,079 --> 00:36:45,159
where it's like it doesn't mean anything, it's not real. Well,

589
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,119
he was translating, you know, I think Persian and Arabic

590
00:36:49,199 --> 00:36:52,880
texts Islamic texts. It was like, I have to find

591
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,440
a different word to use because they're saying what was

592
00:36:56,519 --> 00:37:00,360
translated into English as imagination, but it doesn't mean the

593
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:04,039
same thing. So he's talking about the active capacity to

594
00:37:04,159 --> 00:37:08,079
generate images. That is a power of the soul. That is,

595
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,719
that is what we in magic. That is one of

596
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:16,280
the magical tools of a human being, the part of

597
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:21,440
your soul that can imagine something if without any prompting,

598
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:25,599
nothing there. You know, that's how buildings get built, cities

599
00:37:25,639 --> 00:37:29,079
get built, you know, strategies get formulated, all sorts of

600
00:37:29,119 --> 00:37:32,679
wonderful things come from this realm. And still people, you know,

601
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,000
like to think of it that it's junk, it's nothing.

602
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:41,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, Henry Corbin was studying Sufiism and right, the swelling

603
00:37:41,679 --> 00:37:45,159
dervishes and all that, which is super super interesting, and

604
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:50,400
the concept of active imagination. I've I've done it. Myself.

605
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,760
I've done the I believe that writing is a powerful

606
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,400
tool and that's why young you know, the Red Book,

607
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,119
Black Book and all these things. I think at writing

608
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,079
the way I've come to understand it, not only is

609
00:38:03,079 --> 00:38:06,000
writing sacred, because if you really think about it, any

610
00:38:06,039 --> 00:38:10,119
magical tradition, any religious text, any any any religion, I've

611
00:38:10,119 --> 00:38:12,760
always said, is hell together by writing. And it's it's

612
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:17,079
writing that shifts the paradigm of reality quite literally, and

613
00:38:17,119 --> 00:38:19,639
it has shaped our world as we know it, any

614
00:38:19,679 --> 00:38:21,960
major world religion. Really, I mean, it comes down to

615
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,119
an old book that was translated and passed down and

616
00:38:26,119 --> 00:38:29,559
and I think that's why stories are so important as

617
00:38:29,599 --> 00:38:33,039
well in our reality because they do this. They kind

618
00:38:33,079 --> 00:38:37,079
of serve as a as a crutch in my opinion,

619
00:38:37,159 --> 00:38:40,840
to the active imagination because now they're they're taking away

620
00:38:41,119 --> 00:38:44,760
and they're kind of, you know, leading you astray from

621
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:49,119
having to do the active imagination by just putting pictures

622
00:38:49,119 --> 00:38:52,239
in front of you and that's the substitute for that, right,

623
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,440
So they're kind of deconditioning you from the original, which

624
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:59,320
was oral tradition, which was you know, creating mind palaces

625
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:04,960
and the art of memory, which you know I've always

626
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,280
tried to understand the art of memory for such a

627
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:13,840
long time, and I you know, this concept that who

628
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:19,199
is it that that Yates that she writes about Francis Yates,

629
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,320
and she it eludes me because I'm like trying to

630
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,360
read her works and I'm trying to dig in and

631
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:28,280
like really buckle down, and I'm like, what Francis tell

632
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,440
me the answer to the memory? Like what is it?

633
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,880
And it's like this concept that maybe memory itself is

634
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:38,360
a power that you're able to use to how you're saying,

635
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:44,119
maybe tap into the source or energy or you know,

636
00:39:44,159 --> 00:39:45,039
I still don't know.

637
00:39:45,679 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, here's the thing that happens when

638
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:52,039
you become an initiate, you know. And Crowley said this

639
00:39:52,199 --> 00:39:54,800
to his own chagrin. He's like, I was threatened on

640
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,440
all pains of death not to reveal any of the

641
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,480
secrets and then safe, safely entrusted with the he Through alphabet. Well,

642
00:40:01,559 --> 00:40:03,559
the thing that we're doing and things like that, going

643
00:40:03,639 --> 00:40:06,480
done with the Hebrew alphabet, the signs and symbols of

644
00:40:06,519 --> 00:40:17,280
alchemy of astrology. We are building a symbolic vocabulary because

645
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,639
what happens, right, Okay, So here's the thing you get

646
00:40:19,679 --> 00:40:23,039
active imagination, but at some point that that active imagination

647
00:40:23,199 --> 00:40:27,119
becomes receptive, and what it's receptive to is the power

648
00:40:27,159 --> 00:40:30,440
that you're invoking. If you're a magician, you want something

649
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,519
to come into the image you have made, so you

650
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:37,559
made it amenable to. It's you know, what we would

651
00:40:37,559 --> 00:40:42,039
consider to be its harmonies, its correspondences. It's kind of

652
00:40:42,039 --> 00:40:43,679
the same thing where it's like, hey, if you put

653
00:40:43,679 --> 00:40:46,320
a drum kit in a room and you know, a

654
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:50,000
bowl of of of pasta and meatballs, I'm going to

655
00:40:50,039 --> 00:40:53,480
be very likely to be in that room. Whereas if

656
00:40:53,519 --> 00:40:59,119
you put things that aren't harmonious to my nature, I'm

657
00:40:59,159 --> 00:41:01,960
not going to come in there. So it's kind of

658
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,920
a similar I mean, it's a very gross exaggeration, but

659
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,599
it being facetious to kind of make a point here.

660
00:41:09,559 --> 00:41:11,880
So what we do is imagine, you know, you're let's

661
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,320
say you're doing a pathworking where you're using here this

662
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,119
diagram the tree of life behind me, and you're working

663
00:41:17,159 --> 00:41:20,679
the paths in visualization. Now, some of that is active.

664
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:23,159
You got to know the correspondences. You got to but

665
00:41:23,199 --> 00:41:27,000
then there's always this moment and you prepare for that

666
00:41:27,039 --> 00:41:30,360
moment and you Okay, So now I need an entity

667
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:35,400
and the entity tells me or it does, I don't know.

668
00:41:35,519 --> 00:41:39,320
I'm gonna have to see. And this is an elementary way.

669
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,920
Pathworking is an elementary way to build this skill of

670
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,960
going active passive, active passive in the imagination. Now, what

671
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,159
would happen if all of a sudden big birds showed up?

672
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,920
Because that's what's in your available imagery, that's what's in

673
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:57,239
your lexicon. Will be very difficult to interpret this stuff.

674
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:01,280
Why because that's not a universal symbol. That is a

675
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,760
subjective symbol, that is a personal symbol that means something

676
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:08,039
to you if you know anything about you know the

677
00:42:08,079 --> 00:42:13,199
difference between archetypal and and sort of dream imagery. So

678
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:15,320
what we're doing in a system like the Golden Dawn

679
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:20,599
is we're training ourselves. We're training into ourselves a symbolic vocabulary.

680
00:42:20,679 --> 00:42:22,840
And that's why all these things have all these correspondences

681
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,280
in these meanings. So that if I see the letter alf,

682
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:29,719
I'm thinking spirit, I'm thinking the head of the Ah,

683
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:34,800
you know, I'm thinking the breath of God, you know.

684
00:42:35,079 --> 00:42:39,159
And you know, if I if I think, you know,

685
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:43,639
the Hebrew letter vow, I'm thinking of some kind of nail.

686
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:50,960
I'm thinking of some kind of phallic interpretation, obviously in

687
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:53,960
a divine sense, in an elevated sense. So we have

688
00:42:54,039 --> 00:42:57,440
all these things that allow us to interpret these experiences

689
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,360
and make these things more fluid for us. And you're

690
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:03,639
one hundred percent right about words and letters. This is

691
00:43:03,639 --> 00:43:09,880
a very ancient, ancient uh philosophy, the magical philosophy of language.

692
00:43:10,119 --> 00:43:12,760
Not only is it the written word, it's the spoken word.

693
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:16,639
Why because this is the same way the ancients conceived

694
00:43:17,039 --> 00:43:21,519
of the creator, God, God, the demiurge, whatever you want

695
00:43:21,519 --> 00:43:25,840
to call it, It created in the same way. So

696
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:32,639
they had two terms, nous and logos. Logos is the order,

697
00:43:33,559 --> 00:43:37,559
it's the pattern. It's the universal laws that we that

698
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,800
in our indicative of harmony and therefore some sort of

699
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:46,599
grand intelligence. On the other hand, news is the intelligence itself.

700
00:43:47,159 --> 00:43:52,079
It's the mind of God. And I mean you could

701
00:43:52,079 --> 00:43:55,440
think of it as like that which generates the platonic forms,

702
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:57,880
if you're familiar with those things, or the if you're

703
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:07,559
if you're into Neoplatonism, it's the second hypostatic postulate of nous.

704
00:44:07,559 --> 00:44:13,480
It's just mind. So logos, which really in Greek means

705
00:44:13,559 --> 00:44:20,440
word logos. That order is to noose the mind of

706
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:25,400
God as speech is to the human mind. Why because

707
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:30,679
it reveals things unseen. You cannot see my thoughts, but

708
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:33,320
you will know them when I speak them, and that

709
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:39,719
will give you some sort of indication of my character something,

710
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,519
It will give you something about my nature just from

711
00:44:42,519 --> 00:44:44,760
hearing the things that I say. And it's the same

712
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,599
way that we approach the investigation of the divine and

713
00:44:47,639 --> 00:44:50,320
the cosmos. We look at the order, the logos, the

714
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:54,760
speech of God. Right in most accounts, either Brahma utters

715
00:44:54,800 --> 00:45:01,000
the divine om or you know, Yahweh says let there

716
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:05,559
be light. He doesn't fashion a light bulb. God said

717
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:09,320
let there be light, because it's the The order is

718
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:13,920
indicative of the thought, the same way my speech and

719
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,519
your speech is indicative of the contents of our mind.

720
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,079
So there's something very very interesting and magical here. And

721
00:45:19,159 --> 00:45:22,159
this circles all the way back, and they'll close this

722
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:25,119
on this point. It circles back to what I was

723
00:45:25,159 --> 00:45:30,199
saying before. With individuals as its small universe, as tiny

724
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:35,599
sort of co collaborators in this grand dance, we're almost

725
00:45:35,639 --> 00:45:41,559
like a mirrored reflection but attenuated. You know, we're We're

726
00:45:41,639 --> 00:45:46,480
not God, but we have similar capacities given our size

727
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:46,920
and station.

728
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 2: You mentioned earlier about these Reddit occultists that usually when

729
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:56,360
people dive into the occult, the first thing they want

730
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,480
to do is the hardest hitting stuff. They want to

731
00:45:59,519 --> 00:46:03,400
conjure demons to physical manifestation or whatever it is that

732
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:05,719
they're trying to do. Right, They want to go balls

733
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:07,760
to the wall right off the bat. And you said

734
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,519
that that's not healthy, right, in a sort of way,

735
00:46:10,559 --> 00:46:15,480
are there are there only certain people who can interact

736
00:46:15,519 --> 00:46:18,840
with this, similar to how you know, like a shaman

737
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:23,000
class or priest class. And right, we've been talking about

738
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:27,119
the mondus imaginatze or active imagination this concept, and some

739
00:46:27,159 --> 00:46:31,119
people can't visualize within their head. Some people don't have

740
00:46:31,159 --> 00:46:34,000
an inner monologue. Would that play a role as to

741
00:46:34,199 --> 00:46:38,599
maybe you not being able to interact with it. Does

742
00:46:38,639 --> 00:46:41,719
that play into the aspect of hey, I tried this,

743
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:46,239
nothing happen. Maybe I don't believe enough. Where does that

744
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:46,679
come in?

745
00:46:47,679 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 3: So I would say I'll start off by saying this,

746
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:55,159
I have seen it most of the time, not all

747
00:46:55,199 --> 00:46:57,840
the time, most of the time when people want to

748
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:00,400
jump in and do all the crazy stuff first, because again,

749
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,239
like I said earlier, they're testing their own belief they don't,

750
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:04,679
you know, I say it all the time. I hear

751
00:47:05,039 --> 00:47:07,039
magicians that have written books that have been on the

752
00:47:07,039 --> 00:47:10,239
internet saying, oh, well, the dangers in magic are negligible.

753
00:47:11,559 --> 00:47:13,920
I don't know, do you believe in any of this stuff?

754
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:18,239
You know, because there are real and significant dangers to

755
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:23,000
things like this, most of which are psychosis and delusion.

756
00:47:23,199 --> 00:47:26,079
So I'm not even just talking about you know what

757
00:47:26,159 --> 00:47:28,519
if you call something that you can't get to go away?

758
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,519
You know what, if you do something successful, I would

759
00:47:31,559 --> 00:47:36,159
say probably sixty percent of all magic that is done

760
00:47:36,199 --> 00:47:41,360
by magicians. And this is a gross exaggeration and probably

761
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:44,760
too much of an overestimate, but I would say in

762
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,519
my experience that like sixty percent of the magic that

763
00:47:47,599 --> 00:47:52,480
most people are doing because they don't understand what magic is.

764
00:47:52,679 --> 00:47:57,840
It is just psychology and it's not you know, it's

765
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:04,280
not necessarily actual magic. Now, I would say, you know,

766
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:11,559
once that kind of you know, there are a couple

767
00:48:11,559 --> 00:48:15,440
of people that either something happens, let's say they have

768
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:22,679
a natural talent or whatever, they accidentally providentially did something

769
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:28,800
without realizing it on a perfect astrological election, right, the astrology,

770
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,400
we use it like the tides. If I want to

771
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:33,159
get to that island, I've got to go when the

772
00:48:33,199 --> 00:48:36,760
tide is going out, not coming in and working against me.

773
00:48:37,159 --> 00:48:39,360
So a lot of that's really why magicians pay attention

774
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,400
to astrology, because there's a lot of that etheric kind

775
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:47,039
of tide thing that we're working with now. Maybe a

776
00:48:47,119 --> 00:48:50,280
beginner just so happened to be floating when the tide

777
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:51,880
was out and it worked. Now there are two types

778
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:54,079
of people. There are people who are going to get

779
00:48:54,119 --> 00:48:56,079
scared and leave it alone, or there are people who

780
00:48:56,079 --> 00:48:58,440
are going to say, Okay, I like this, I'm going

781
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:01,119
to keep doing it some more. And I would say

782
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:04,000
people that have a fantasia it's called they don't have

783
00:49:04,039 --> 00:49:08,639
the ability to visualize. There are other ways you can be.

784
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:12,920
You can develop other senses you can I've worked with

785
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:17,079
people who thought they had a fantasia and can now visualize,

786
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:19,480
you know, because it's like I spent a lot of

787
00:49:19,559 --> 00:49:22,559
time explaining to them and working with them about what

788
00:49:22,679 --> 00:49:25,559
visualization is. They just couldn't figure out what was going on.

789
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:29,880
Am I supposed to be seeing something that? No? You know,

790
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:34,039
not when you're visualizing, when you're visualizing. I mean, you

791
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:37,519
are imagining something in your head. Now for the purposes

792
00:49:37,559 --> 00:49:39,599
of magic, you have to open your eyes and that

793
00:49:39,679 --> 00:49:43,840
should be automatically after a while of practice. Project it

794
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:46,800
should be in the room with you, but not three dimensionally,

795
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:51,199
two dimensionally, but it's it's there as an overlay. And

796
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:57,000
what is that. It's combining the hemispheres the same way

797
00:49:57,000 --> 00:49:59,039
that I would go loose it in a dream, right,

798
00:49:59,119 --> 00:50:04,000
I take my way mind into my my unconscious to

799
00:50:04,159 --> 00:50:09,000
my subconscious. You're doing that in magic. You're bringing the subconscious,

800
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:13,159
You're bringing the intuitive, the imaginal into your waking consciousness.

801
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:17,159
So it's it's it's the inverse of like lucid dreaming.

802
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:19,960
Really is what you're doing. And so you teach people

803
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:21,960
to do that, and if they can't do it, there

804
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:27,840
are other ways. But the main thing is this people

805
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:31,719
shouldn't and this is this is a truism from very

806
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:34,599
very old. It's just now in the modern times of

807
00:50:34,679 --> 00:50:38,119
this kind of you know, democratization of everything because we

808
00:50:38,159 --> 00:50:40,239
have the Internet and we don't know what it means

809
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:44,480
to have any kind of self control or or uh,

810
00:50:44,599 --> 00:50:49,360
you know, blockages from seeing things doing things, and everything's

811
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,559
free you can watch somebody get beheaded on the internet,

812
00:50:52,599 --> 00:50:56,480
you can watch people having sex, and whatever you want,

813
00:50:56,519 --> 00:50:59,480
you can see and do in our world. And so

814
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:02,199
these kinds of things that I'm about to say, even

815
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:05,559
though for most of human history we're just obvious to everybody,

816
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,719
we've kind of thrown them by the wayside. And that

817
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:11,719
is that you shouldn't do magic until you're prepared to

818
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:16,119
do magic. And what is that preparation? Initiation? So you

819
00:51:16,119 --> 00:51:18,400
get a lot of people who go into magic and

820
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:22,519
they never initiate an initiation. If it's true, if it's

821
00:51:22,599 --> 00:51:27,920
an actual initiatic order with qualified initiating adepts and a

822
00:51:28,519 --> 00:51:33,320
formula that works, you're going to undergo what we call

823
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:36,199
a spiritual alchemy. You know, a lot of people think

824
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:40,079
that's new agy. Well take a look at Zossimus' Panopolis

825
00:51:40,079 --> 00:51:44,840
talking about spiritual end laboratory alchemy, you know, or really

826
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:49,320
it was metallurgy in his day, being just reflections of

827
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:51,679
each other, right, and that's the third fourth century again,

828
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:55,440
and he was an Egyptian scribe priest, so not new agy.

829
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:59,880
But really there is a salve at Coagula that should

830
00:51:59,880 --> 00:52:02,159
have happened to you. Like I said earlier, you have

831
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:05,000
to know your own psychology or these things will use you.

832
00:52:05,039 --> 00:52:07,159
They will play you like a fiddle, and they will

833
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:11,800
use you like a puppet. So you must undergo that

834
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:16,360
alchemical initiation to know yourself better. And not only that,

835
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:21,840
but what we talked about the microcosm, the miniature universe, well,

836
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:25,320
the universe as it exists out there, the macrocosm, the

837
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:29,519
big version that has more divine proportions. What do I

838
00:52:29,559 --> 00:52:31,800
mean by that, Well, most things are tempered by their

839
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:37,079
opposite constantly right, equal amounts of in the course of

840
00:52:37,119 --> 00:52:40,280
the year, equal amounts of day and night. This is

841
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:42,320
the same thing if you go to Iceland, where like

842
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:44,239
half the year it's dark, but then also half the

843
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:48,400
year it's light all the time. There's a natural balancing

844
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:53,440
act that happens in the microcosm. Because of nature and

845
00:52:53,559 --> 00:52:58,440
nurture and traumas and all sorts of exterior things, we're

846
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:01,239
all out of whack. We don't have that same balance.

847
00:53:01,639 --> 00:53:05,119
So what the alchemical initiation is supposed to do is

848
00:53:05,119 --> 00:53:11,440
supposed to rebalance you in according to the or in

849
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:15,679
accordance with the proportions of the universe. You know, you're

850
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:18,920
using nature as your model. That is hermatism, that is

851
00:53:19,039 --> 00:53:22,679
rawsy crucianism. You're reading the Book of Nature and learning

852
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:27,159
how to find an experience and maintain the dynamic equilibrium

853
00:53:27,199 --> 00:53:29,320
of balance. And a lot of that has to do

854
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:31,400
with virtue. A lot of that has to do with

855
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:35,679
what we call, you know, sofrosini in the Greek tradition, temperance,

856
00:53:36,199 --> 00:53:42,280
balance equilibrium. This is knowing thyself and not just letting

857
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:46,559
yourself off the rails. You're going to an extreme. Things

858
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:51,599
in this realm cannot exist for long if they are extreme,

859
00:53:52,679 --> 00:53:57,239
and so the prevailing mode of existence is a dynamic

860
00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:01,440
equilibrium along the center of gravity, the middle. And so

861
00:54:01,519 --> 00:54:04,239
if you haven't done that, I do not recommend that

862
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:08,039
you do magic. Also, if you have mental health issues,

863
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:10,639
I don't think that that is that is now I'm

864
00:54:10,639 --> 00:54:16,440
talking about schizophrenia. I'm talking about you know, severe disassociative

865
00:54:17,039 --> 00:54:20,039
disorders and maybe even things that are that are very

866
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:25,039
like severe bipolar disorder. I would recommend for your health,

867
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:29,840
not out of some kind of exclusion exclusionary sentiment, but

868
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:34,119
for your health. You you are communicating with things you

869
00:54:34,159 --> 00:54:38,719
can't see, and you are aggrandizing potentially your ego to

870
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:42,400
cathedral heights, and not only that, but if you're undergoing

871
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:47,800
out chemical initiation, it's actually a species of self induced schizophrenia.

872
00:54:48,119 --> 00:54:51,320
So you don't really want to exacerbate any of these things.

873
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:53,639
So those are the types of people who I think

874
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:54,679
shouldn't do magic.

875
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense. You said it's a

876
00:55:00,079 --> 00:55:02,400
it's a self induced psychosis in a sort of way,

877
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:05,159
right to be able to do these things. And you

878
00:55:05,199 --> 00:55:10,360
know you mentioned spiritual alchemy. I've heard that Freemasonry eliminated

879
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:14,800
the lab work. You know, you were talking about Zozimos, right,

880
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:20,079
who talked about that about how you know, Henrik what's

881
00:55:20,079 --> 00:55:24,480
his name, Henrik Conrath, you know, and the plates that

882
00:55:24,519 --> 00:55:27,480
they would enter right in the oratory of the laboratory,

883
00:55:27,519 --> 00:55:30,440
and like that's what those plates served. It was their

884
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:32,840
all chemical lab on the other side, and that's what

885
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:36,559
those mandolas essentially was for and with the perspective and everything,

886
00:55:36,559 --> 00:55:39,119
because they would go in and do part of their

887
00:55:39,199 --> 00:55:44,199
alchemy within that. You mentioned emerging the hemispheres, right, you

888
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:49,800
have the government with hemi sync and their trials on them,

889
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:53,039
their studies on that. And I want to ask you

890
00:55:53,079 --> 00:55:55,360
the million dollar question that a lot of people because

891
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:57,960
I do speak about conspiracies as well, because I think

892
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:01,480
it kind of crosses the conspirac cult. Right, it's a

893
00:56:01,519 --> 00:56:04,239
conspiracy what we're talking about. Now, are you able to

894
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:06,400
do all this? Are there demons? Are there angels? Can

895
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:08,719
you control them? Can you not? Right? Like people always

896
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:14,199
wonder about that, And are what you would consider the

897
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:19,159
elites using magic, subtlety or on purpose to control the masses?

898
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:23,480
And if they are, are the masses even sus susceptible

899
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:28,679
to a sort of magical manipulation if you will, Because

900
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:30,760
this is a conspiracy theory that a lot of people

901
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:33,480
talk about. Where you have the skitzos on the internet

902
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:37,239
collecting you know, they do the the jamatria nowadays, which

903
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:40,079
is kabbala, right, which is a which in my opinion

904
00:56:40,199 --> 00:56:42,880
is a real practice, just not the way that people

905
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:45,360
are using it nowadays. But what are your thoughts on that,

906
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:51,039
on this elite secret cabal using magic all on us,

907
00:56:51,159 --> 00:56:54,719
you know, through Hollywood and the media and social media

908
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:55,599
and all these things.

909
00:56:56,480 --> 00:57:00,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a big question, and it's part of it

910
00:57:00,519 --> 00:57:04,760
was you know, this whole thing what you're talking about now,

911
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:07,599
what you're bringing up is a big reason why in

912
00:57:07,639 --> 00:57:11,559
the first place, I wanted to study Kabbala and things

913
00:57:11,599 --> 00:57:15,119
like that and see what is going on here, because

914
00:57:15,159 --> 00:57:23,039
something inside of me just no or knew that some

915
00:57:23,119 --> 00:57:25,360
of this stuff was at play. And the thing is,

916
00:57:25,519 --> 00:57:28,000
I meet a lot of people, especially in occult orders.

917
00:57:28,039 --> 00:57:31,800
You know, they tend to be well, I'm not going

918
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:34,639
to make any negative or disparaging kind.

919
00:57:34,719 --> 00:57:36,920
Speaker 2: This is a safe place. You can say whatever you want.

920
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:40,559
Speaker 3: I well, you know, the thing is, they tend to

921
00:57:40,639 --> 00:57:46,559
be a little diluted and a little hypocritical and a

922
00:57:46,599 --> 00:57:48,239
lot of the times, and a lot of that has

923
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:51,760
to do with not everybody, again is an initiate. Not

924
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:55,800
everybody has gone through this hard won balancing act, and

925
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:58,280
it doesn't end. I'll be doing this till I'm dead,

926
00:57:59,519 --> 00:58:01,719
and I have to. He's no choice. You can't turn

927
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:06,559
back now. But a lot of people they, for some reason,

928
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:12,920
we get together in robes and funny hats and say

929
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:18,079
all these crazy words and vibrate and go around in circles,

930
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:20,880
and we do all that for the purposes of bringing

931
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:24,519
good into the world. How far fetched is it that

932
00:58:24,559 --> 00:58:27,320
there is some group of people doing that somewhere to

933
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:31,480
bring bad into the world. And what is bad? Self interest?

934
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:37,159
Like self interest. That is a runaway train, right, Okay,

935
00:58:37,199 --> 00:58:41,079
So vicious self interest is, for all intents and purposes,

936
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:44,559
the dark force, the dissolutive force in society and an

937
00:58:44,559 --> 00:58:49,199
individual's it's compelling us constantly to use our arrows, our

938
00:58:49,239 --> 00:58:52,079
spiritual desire, which is the inherent nature of our soul,

939
00:58:52,519 --> 00:58:57,480
to ground it in orgasms, food, money, competition, instead of

940
00:58:57,639 --> 00:59:01,880
reaching back up like an infant, to our creator and

941
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:06,639
to the higher hierarchies, our brothers and sisters spiritually beyond

942
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:09,280
or or above us. I don't want to say a

943
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:12,079
value judgment, but there's a there's a hierarchy here, right.

944
00:59:12,079 --> 00:59:15,679
We're talking about logos order. The universe is ordered, and

945
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:18,440
so is so are the spiritual is the spiritual realm.

946
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:22,079
And that's a truism of all occultism for as far

947
00:59:22,119 --> 00:59:29,800
back as you go. Uh So, I don't know anybody

948
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:32,679
that is an elite that practices this stuff. So I

949
00:59:32,679 --> 00:59:34,960
want to clarify that I'm not claiming to have any

950
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:37,400
behind the scenes hidden knowledge.

951
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:38,119
Speaker 2: But.

952
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:45,840
Speaker 3: I know what it's like. I I'll say this, I

953
00:59:46,039 --> 00:59:51,519
understand and I noticed the markers of when someone is

954
00:59:51,639 --> 00:59:54,159
under some kind of control, under some kind of spell,

955
00:59:54,239 --> 00:59:59,039
some kind of enchantments, some kind of a will dominance,

956
00:59:59,239 --> 01:00:03,920
for lack of a better term. I also some of

957
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:08,679
my work is in clerical stuff. I've spent seven years

958
01:00:08,679 --> 01:00:13,440
as a deacon an exorcist, so I also know the

959
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:23,960
hallmarks of you know, parasitism, possession, not even full on possession,

960
01:00:24,039 --> 01:00:28,239
but attachment of certain entities. And I would say that

961
01:00:28,679 --> 01:00:33,280
the overwhelming majority of people are under some kind of

962
01:00:33,440 --> 01:00:38,519
influence one way or another, because what renders us susceptible

963
01:00:38,719 --> 01:00:42,840
to that kind of influence is now hardwired, and has

964
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:47,440
been for one hundred years, almost hardwired into our society.

965
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:54,840
You know, substances which weaken the etheric body, disruptions in

966
01:00:54,920 --> 01:01:00,239
our natural circadian rhythms, in our natural hormonal sort of output,

967
01:01:00,559 --> 01:01:04,880
those rhythms being constantly in fight or flight, lowers immunity.

968
01:01:05,159 --> 01:01:07,400
And I'm not even just talking now from the perspective

969
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:12,000
of a magician. I have a college level training in

970
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:16,559
Chinese medicine and an acupuncture, so I learned the energetic stuff.

971
01:01:16,599 --> 01:01:20,599
I studied with chigong masters and all that stuff. I

972
01:01:20,679 --> 01:01:24,559
got a ray key practice, and it's just a truism.

973
01:01:24,679 --> 01:01:28,920
In all forms of traditional energetic medicines. You do certain

974
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:32,679
things and your chi your defenses break down, and it

975
01:01:32,719 --> 01:01:36,000
makes it easier for things to enter. I would say

976
01:01:36,039 --> 01:01:39,880
most people are into that or subject to that, and

977
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:42,360
a big part of that is the mass media. The

978
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:47,199
mass media, there has never been a repository of popular

979
01:01:47,239 --> 01:01:50,400
opinion in the same way as we have it today,

980
01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:54,119
where literally we've got screens in our pockets in every

981
01:01:54,199 --> 01:01:57,239
room in the house, multiple ones, and you can tune

982
01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:01,760
in and things and people that you wouldn't let into

983
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:03,840
your living room if they were knocking on your door.

984
01:02:04,199 --> 01:02:08,920
Now have you by the nose, have your attention. And

985
01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:13,480
one of the things that preliminarily you learn as an

986
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:16,960
initiate is you must control the gate of your mind.

987
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:22,119
We think we only have a gastronomical or a physical diet.

988
01:02:22,159 --> 01:02:26,039
We have a mental diet, and that mental diet gives

989
01:02:26,039 --> 01:02:30,960
whatever coming in direct access to our energy, direct access

990
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:35,440
to our thoughts, feelings, emotions. Especially if we have not initiated,

991
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:38,559
what does initiate mean to begin? If we have not

992
01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:42,960
even begun the inward journey? These people are basically like

993
01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:48,880
real you know, they're like just baby sheep fawnds to wolves.

994
01:02:49,039 --> 01:02:52,000
They have no way of even knowing how I viscerated

995
01:02:52,039 --> 01:02:57,239
there they're getting. I don't know if it's coordinated, but

996
01:02:57,360 --> 01:03:03,400
I know what I'm seeing. I definitely know what I'm seeing. Uh.

997
01:03:03,519 --> 01:03:06,039
Is there a suspicion on my part that a lot

998
01:03:06,079 --> 01:03:11,360
of this is coordinated as fuckingly? But I can't you know.

999
01:03:11,639 --> 01:03:15,719
Of course, somebody's sources, like you know, and uh, trust me,

1000
01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:16,679
I don't have any.

1001
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:21,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, source, trust me, bro And you you've said

1002
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:27,320
enough to again leave enough room for speculation and anyone listening.

1003
01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:29,960
I always encourage people to do their own research. Don't

1004
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:32,519
listen to me, don't listen to you know anything. I'm

1005
01:03:32,599 --> 01:03:35,280
just here. Just make up your own assumptions and and

1006
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:37,559
I'm just presenting the information. What you do with that

1007
01:03:37,679 --> 01:03:39,960
is up to you. And so I want to spend

1008
01:03:40,239 --> 01:03:43,159
the last bit of the show talking about your new

1009
01:03:43,559 --> 01:03:46,400
work that's going to be coming out here in April

1010
01:03:47,159 --> 01:03:50,599
and a Theoric Magic, a complete system of elemental, celestial

1011
01:03:50,639 --> 01:03:53,639
and now chemical magic. Can you tell us a little

1012
01:03:53,639 --> 01:03:59,280
bit about this work? What is a Theoric Magic and

1013
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:01,760
what all that can say? Stuff? Sure?

1014
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:06,960
Speaker 3: So, yeah, that's coming out in April, uh with Lluellen

1015
01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:12,920
And essentially it's a distillation of it's it's I would

1016
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:17,119
say it's it's an introductory distillation. Although I mean there

1017
01:04:17,159 --> 01:04:21,199
are tons of exercises in this book. You will be

1018
01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:24,440
busy for a very long time with this book if

1019
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:28,320
you choose to actually, you know, do the practicum. I

1020
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:31,840
wanted this. My last book, A Formless Fire, was more

1021
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:34,519
you know we I had appendixes in there where you could,

1022
01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:37,719
you know, do the LBRP consecrate holy water, do with

1023
01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:41,679
Spageria tanks here, but nothing at this level of practice.

1024
01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:45,039
That was much more of a history and theory book,

1025
01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:48,760
and I wanted I never want to write going along

1026
01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:51,199
with this whole theme of keeping things balanced. I never

1027
01:04:51,239 --> 01:04:54,840
want to just release all this intellectual info, dumb stuff

1028
01:04:55,679 --> 01:04:59,679
without having another book come right up behind it and okay,

1029
01:04:59,719 --> 01:05:02,920
now here is it practical stuff. So that's what etheric

1030
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:05,320
magic really is. I do go into the history and

1031
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:07,199
theory of it, though you have to know the theory

1032
01:05:07,519 --> 01:05:10,440
and the history is just very interesting. I'm using the

1033
01:05:10,519 --> 01:05:16,119
term etheric U basically as a Western term for for

1034
01:05:16,280 --> 01:05:19,280
chi or for for the energy bodies. Now, when I

1035
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:22,800
say energy is energy, I don't mean energy in the

1036
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:26,760
in you know, electricity or or we don't know what

1037
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:30,679
this stuff is and it's not imaginal because it's it's

1038
01:05:30,719 --> 01:05:33,840
actually physical. It's it's you can see it, you can

1039
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:36,639
palpate it, you can feel it, you can move it.

1040
01:05:36,639 --> 01:05:41,679
It's just some form of physicality which is extremely rarefied,

1041
01:05:41,719 --> 01:05:45,239
and it resembles a fluid like light. And you'll hear

1042
01:05:45,280 --> 01:05:47,519
that talked about constantly, right, I talk about it in

1043
01:05:47,599 --> 01:05:50,920
the book Shime the astral Light and all this kind

1044
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:55,360
of stuff. It moves like water and it is radiant

1045
01:05:55,440 --> 01:06:02,400
like light. And I give many, many exercises to be

1046
01:06:02,440 --> 01:06:05,039
able to teach people to see it and feel it

1047
01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:07,519
and then move it. And that's those are just the

1048
01:06:07,559 --> 01:06:12,920
preliminary exercises I like I mentioned, you know, I went

1049
01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:17,079
to school for for for massage, bodywork, Eastern bodywork, and

1050
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:22,239
Chinese medicine acupuncture. I trained in chigung I trained in Taichi,

1051
01:06:22,280 --> 01:06:24,679
and trained in martial arts. I trained in raiki, and

1052
01:06:24,719 --> 01:06:26,840
all this was going on, I was also doing Western

1053
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:32,039
ceremonial magic, and I realized, wow, like, these are two

1054
01:06:32,119 --> 01:06:36,119
sides of one coin, truly, and we've we could in

1055
01:06:36,159 --> 01:06:39,760
the Western system we completely gloss over it. Some people

1056
01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:42,320
say like, oh, yeah, well it's hidden, Okay, Well Why

1057
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:44,000
does it have to be hidden? Why do I have

1058
01:06:44,039 --> 01:06:45,960
to read now chemical text. It's going to give me

1059
01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:48,679
a seizure or stroke, you know, trying to figure this

1060
01:06:48,719 --> 01:06:50,639
thing out. Who knows if the guy who wrote it

1061
01:06:50,719 --> 01:06:53,000
knew what he was talking about. I'm not going to

1062
01:06:53,039 --> 01:06:57,440
waste my time. So I really really dove headfirst into

1063
01:06:57,440 --> 01:07:00,239
the energy systems and the practices of the East because

1064
01:07:00,239 --> 01:07:05,400
they're very very well codified, they're very well kept, and

1065
01:07:05,440 --> 01:07:08,320
it's part of a magical tradition. Benabel one one of

1066
01:07:08,400 --> 01:07:11,679
my favorite authors and practitioners of all time. That woman

1067
01:07:11,719 --> 01:07:14,719
makes me look like a monkey. She is incredible, and

1068
01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:18,400
she put together. She has a book called the Tao

1069
01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:23,800
of Craft, and she talks about Daoist magical consecrations of

1070
01:07:24,159 --> 01:07:26,880
sigils and talismans and the moving of chi. It's a

1071
01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:32,480
very defined energy work sort of thing, intelligent energy. And

1072
01:07:32,519 --> 01:07:35,519
so I basically, over the course of ten or eleven

1073
01:07:35,599 --> 01:07:39,880
years eleven years now, I use the Kabbalistic Tree of

1074
01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:45,960
Life as a kind of scaffolding and the symbol system

1075
01:07:46,039 --> 01:07:51,000
of Western alchemy to basically create a system of energy

1076
01:07:51,039 --> 01:07:55,559
work that does what we were talking about, spiritual alchemy

1077
01:07:55,800 --> 01:08:00,000
that does have applications to every kind of magic include

1078
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:03,280
if you're going to do it conjuration, I don't recommend

1079
01:08:03,320 --> 01:08:06,159
condur you can use this for anything. And then also

1080
01:08:06,239 --> 01:08:09,639
there is a the health aspect of it, right, because

1081
01:08:10,400 --> 01:08:14,679
that should be a part of any practitioners. You know,

1082
01:08:16,359 --> 01:08:21,359
regime is energetic health the more. That's what chigung is,

1083
01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:26,680
you know, that's the big secret. They transform chi into jing.

1084
01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:33,119
They transform energy into essence, right, So they're taking prana

1085
01:08:33,239 --> 01:08:37,520
and they're building with it more kundalini. And that's essentially

1086
01:08:37,640 --> 01:08:40,199
what chigung does. It's why they call it the Fountain

1087
01:08:40,239 --> 01:08:43,640
of Life because or the fountain of youth, because they're

1088
01:08:43,720 --> 01:08:49,319
transforming that energy into life essence. This is a big

1089
01:08:49,359 --> 01:08:53,119
part of the Daoist adept and interral chemical tradition, and

1090
01:08:53,159 --> 01:08:56,880
I believe it is and was a big part of

1091
01:08:56,920 --> 01:09:00,720
the Western tradition, but we lost it. So I'm I'm

1092
01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:04,399
bringing it back in this book and really giving the history,

1093
01:09:04,439 --> 01:09:09,239
theory and a crap tone of practice for anybody that

1094
01:09:09,319 --> 01:09:12,840
wants to work this system, do the energy work, and

1095
01:09:12,840 --> 01:09:14,359
then apply it magically.

1096
01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:20,199
Speaker 2: The watery light is that something similar to what the

1097
01:09:20,199 --> 01:09:22,600
Gnostics talked about in the Upper eons that you were

1098
01:09:22,640 --> 01:09:25,399
going to be, you know, reunited with the source. And

1099
01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:27,479
they described it as this watery light.

1100
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:32,880
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I would say that what it is is that's

1101
01:09:32,960 --> 01:09:36,279
the you know, the shamim up in those the fiery

1102
01:09:36,319 --> 01:09:41,319
waters up there, and essentially that is it is the

1103
01:09:41,439 --> 01:09:48,039
creative impetus behind everything. So there's this system, right. These

1104
01:09:48,079 --> 01:09:53,560
words are muddled, their definitions are not precise any longer

1105
01:09:53,600 --> 01:09:56,840
when we say things like spirit and soul. But in

1106
01:09:56,880 --> 01:10:00,840
the ancient system, particularly the Hellenistic system of the Greco

1107
01:10:00,920 --> 01:10:07,840
Egyptian Romans, you had si kei psyche soul, which was

1108
01:10:07,920 --> 01:10:13,359
the aggregate totality of your experience of interiority. What do

1109
01:10:13,439 --> 01:10:17,479
I mean by that? Your thoughts, feelings, emotions, everything that

1110
01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:22,720
makes you you inside your head, that experiential component that

1111
01:10:22,920 --> 01:10:27,000
was your soul. Seek that's where we get psychology from.

1112
01:10:27,039 --> 01:10:31,039
They thought it was you know, metaphysical, and I believe

1113
01:10:31,079 --> 01:10:33,760
that there is a component that is metaphysical as well. Now,

1114
01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:41,760
spirit was numa, okay, and that actually is this sort

1115
01:10:41,760 --> 01:10:46,399
of light like substance. And for anything, even a soul,

1116
01:10:47,079 --> 01:10:50,399
to enter into materiality, it had to be sort of

1117
01:10:52,319 --> 01:10:58,479
vehiculized or enshrouded in this spirit. So spirit is literally

1118
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:01,159
the vessel of the body and the soul right, because

1119
01:11:01,239 --> 01:11:05,119
matter has no life in and of itself, It needs

1120
01:11:05,640 --> 01:11:08,800
numa and seek, it needs spirit and soul in order

1121
01:11:08,840 --> 01:11:14,760
to become animate. The word animate or animate comes from

1122
01:11:14,800 --> 01:11:19,880
the Latin anima soul. It's throughout the Platonic dialogues. Matter

1123
01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:22,720
only has life when there is soul and spirit in it.

1124
01:11:23,039 --> 01:11:25,600
And so that's that's what I'm talking about here. This,

1125
01:11:25,600 --> 01:11:29,600
this ether is is this this spirit. It's also called

1126
01:11:29,640 --> 01:11:36,960
the breath of God, and it is essentially, it is

1127
01:11:37,079 --> 01:11:40,039
essentially the part of God that it is. Everywhere in

1128
01:11:40,079 --> 01:11:43,319
the Corpus Hermeticum you have you have many things said

1129
01:11:43,359 --> 01:11:48,000
about the One, the absolute, the monad capital g God.

1130
01:11:48,239 --> 01:11:50,119
But the one that sticks out the most to me

1131
01:11:50,279 --> 01:11:56,920
is God is one and its substance is light. And

1132
01:11:57,279 --> 01:12:01,720
you look at masonry, you look at golden dawn, all

1133
01:12:01,800 --> 01:12:09,319
this stuff. There is an intense preoccupation with light, further light,

1134
01:12:09,560 --> 01:12:14,479
more light, light and extension. All of this light. It's

1135
01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:17,199
not a lot of people will say, well, because it's

1136
01:12:17,239 --> 01:12:20,640
it's you can look at it platonically, where light is

1137
01:12:20,680 --> 01:12:24,199
not just you know, knowledge of things, but knowledge itself

1138
01:12:25,800 --> 01:12:28,239
and there's an interesting correlation to that with we were

1139
01:12:28,239 --> 01:12:32,319
talking about before Noose the intellect of God. Well, I

1140
01:12:32,359 --> 01:12:36,159
was speaking with the professor Walter Honograph at the University

1141
01:12:36,159 --> 01:12:38,399
of Amsterdam and he told me, you know, he's like,

1142
01:12:38,439 --> 01:12:41,319
you know, yeah, that word gets translated as intellect, but

1143
01:12:41,359 --> 01:12:46,199
what it really means is light. So it's really, really,

1144
01:12:46,239 --> 01:12:50,039
really incredible is that it seems to be that whatever

1145
01:12:53,119 --> 01:12:58,439
infinite mind is dreaming our reality, the basic substance it

1146
01:12:58,560 --> 01:13:02,640
is using to create and move everything is light. And

1147
01:13:02,680 --> 01:13:05,359
so that's why I hesitate to call it energy because

1148
01:13:05,399 --> 01:13:08,840
really it's this liquid light. It's this fluidic light that

1149
01:13:08,880 --> 01:13:11,640
we're working with here. And the interesting thing is again

1150
01:13:11,760 --> 01:13:16,960
that Noose intellect and light correspondence is it responds to

1151
01:13:17,039 --> 01:13:21,520
our minds. There's a saying in Chigung where the mind

1152
01:13:21,640 --> 01:13:26,239
goes the chi flows, and so that's another thing that

1153
01:13:26,279 --> 01:13:29,279
I take people through in the book, this preliminary exploration

1154
01:13:29,359 --> 01:13:32,840
of hey, you have an energy body. You have to

1155
01:13:34,079 --> 01:13:36,399
link your conscious mind to it, and it's going to

1156
01:13:36,439 --> 01:13:38,920
be like an arm. You didn't know you have that.

1157
01:13:39,000 --> 01:13:41,439
Now you have to learn how to work the fingers

1158
01:13:41,479 --> 01:13:45,319
and relearn how to use that thing. It is completely atrophied.

1159
01:13:45,520 --> 01:13:48,319
And it's the same concept with your your etheric bodies,

1160
01:13:48,439 --> 01:13:50,560
is that you link your mind to it and then

1161
01:13:50,560 --> 01:13:51,960
it will do what you want it to do.

1162
01:13:53,680 --> 01:13:56,239
Speaker 2: So many things are going through my mind, and I

1163
01:13:56,279 --> 01:14:00,199
love Daoism. Daoism is very amazing and there are a

1164
01:14:00,239 --> 01:14:02,720
lot of interesting concepts within that and what's sprouted from

1165
01:14:02,720 --> 01:14:06,600
that as well, right, because there's this evolution and you

1166
01:14:06,680 --> 01:14:12,159
talked about taking various aspects of magical systems and kind

1167
01:14:12,159 --> 01:14:16,680
of sort of merging it into your own. And I've

1168
01:14:16,720 --> 01:14:22,640
always compared magic or this the current, right, this thing

1169
01:14:23,560 --> 01:14:27,840
to the force. Right in Star Wars and George O. Fucus,

1170
01:14:27,960 --> 01:14:29,800
you know, shout out to Slick dissident, he came up

1171
01:14:29,840 --> 01:14:34,079
with that one of where you have the Jedi who

1172
01:14:34,359 --> 01:14:39,199
use the force this thing for good and they write

1173
01:14:39,319 --> 01:14:42,880
good sub and good and evil subjective even and you know,

1174
01:14:42,880 --> 01:14:45,640
in those terms, but they use it for positive right

1175
01:14:46,119 --> 01:14:49,760
light good, and then you have the Sith that use

1176
01:14:49,840 --> 01:14:53,560
it for more nefarious purposes how we were mentioned earlier, right,

1177
01:14:53,640 --> 01:14:59,359
for corruption, manipulation, power, you know, dominance over other people.

1178
01:15:00,199 --> 01:15:06,039
And is that the correct analogy that this magic, this thing,

1179
01:15:06,159 --> 01:15:09,520
this etheric thing is like the force where you can

1180
01:15:09,840 --> 01:15:13,000
tap into it using your own hardware. But as long

1181
01:15:13,039 --> 01:15:16,079
as you know how to navigate your way around it,

1182
01:15:16,319 --> 01:15:19,279
you're good. And that's why there have been multiple magical

1183
01:15:19,319 --> 01:15:20,840
systems throughout all of history.

1184
01:15:22,520 --> 01:15:28,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I would say, well, first, I would

1185
01:15:28,359 --> 01:15:30,199
say this about the analogy. I like it because I'm

1186
01:15:30,239 --> 01:15:33,239
a big fan of Star Wars, especially the original trilogy.

1187
01:15:33,279 --> 01:15:37,479
But I would say that the idea of the force

1188
01:15:37,600 --> 01:15:43,439
was actually derived allah. You know Taoism, and you know

1189
01:15:43,520 --> 01:15:46,239
Joe Campbell, who influenced the series from the very beginning.

1190
01:15:48,039 --> 01:15:52,439
It is derived from that principle of of you know,

1191
01:15:52,800 --> 01:15:57,560
this unifying force that is all permeating. It's what we're

1192
01:15:57,600 --> 01:16:02,319
talking about the light now. And I remember what Yoda

1193
01:16:02,399 --> 01:16:06,720
says too. He pinches Luke and he goes, luminous beings.

1194
01:16:06,760 --> 01:16:11,319
Are we not this crude matter? Luminous beings? We are

1195
01:16:11,439 --> 01:16:15,600
beings of light, That's what he's telling him. But your mind,

1196
01:16:16,000 --> 01:16:19,239
Luke's mind is so convinced that I am this guy

1197
01:16:19,319 --> 01:16:21,800
in this place who can't lift the X wing out

1198
01:16:21,800 --> 01:16:24,079
of the And then he says, I don't believe it.

1199
01:16:24,119 --> 01:16:26,880
And Yoda says, well, that's why you fail, you know,

1200
01:16:26,880 --> 01:16:29,600
because you can't wrap your mind around this shit, And

1201
01:16:29,640 --> 01:16:34,159
that to me is another lesson of initiation faith, right

1202
01:16:34,239 --> 01:16:37,119
because people say, Okay, if you're a gnostic, you don't

1203
01:16:37,159 --> 01:16:39,920
need faith. Yeah, But the thing is, in order to

1204
01:16:39,920 --> 01:16:42,800
become a gnostic you need faith because you're not a

1205
01:16:42,840 --> 01:16:46,560
gnostic until you have knowledge. So well, yeah, what's the

1206
01:16:46,640 --> 01:16:49,119
motivation to work towards that path? Why am I going

1207
01:16:49,159 --> 01:16:51,199
to climb the Holy Mountain if I don't have faith

1208
01:16:51,199 --> 01:16:53,399
that something's going to reward me at the end. So

1209
01:16:53,560 --> 01:16:58,239
there needs to be some kind of faith. But I

1210
01:16:58,279 --> 01:17:03,840
would say that the good and evil and nefarious they're

1211
01:17:03,880 --> 01:17:05,880
tricky terms. Can you get a lot of people right now,

1212
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:10,159
especially all of the world, that think they're doing good,

1213
01:17:10,199 --> 01:17:13,880
but they're really doing evil because they're so convinced. There's

1214
01:17:13,920 --> 01:17:17,359
so much emotionality behind this idea of doing capital g

1215
01:17:17,520 --> 01:17:21,600
good that they don't realize they're subverting it. Their flame

1216
01:17:21,720 --> 01:17:25,159
is ruddy. It's not a bright, pure luminous flame. It's

1217
01:17:25,159 --> 01:17:30,239
a flame that is giving off vicious heat and black smoke,

1218
01:17:31,039 --> 01:17:34,800
and so it's not really this fire of nourishment. It's

1219
01:17:34,840 --> 01:17:38,439
this fire of destruction, is what they are manifesting. Even

1220
01:17:38,520 --> 01:17:40,920
though they think that they're doing good. Right. Road to

1221
01:17:40,960 --> 01:17:44,199
hell is paved with good intentions. And so I would

1222
01:17:44,239 --> 01:17:46,479
say that in order to use something for the highest

1223
01:17:46,520 --> 01:17:50,119
and best purpose, you are using the force, the light,

1224
01:17:50,279 --> 01:17:55,720
the ether for balance. Balance. That is what you want

1225
01:17:55,760 --> 01:17:59,119
to do. You want to if and sometimes you know,

1226
01:17:59,399 --> 01:18:03,159
to the uniated, it might look like you're doing something bad.

1227
01:18:03,720 --> 01:18:06,079
It's kind of the same way in the prequels when

1228
01:18:06,680 --> 01:18:09,439
Obi Wan says, you know, Anakin, you were supposed to

1229
01:18:09,439 --> 01:18:13,600
bring balance to the force. Well maybe he did. Maybe

1230
01:18:13,640 --> 01:18:17,039
there was too much light, you know, he needed to

1231
01:18:17,640 --> 01:18:19,960
bring the darkness to balance it. And what comes from that,

1232
01:18:20,319 --> 01:18:23,800
Luke Skywalker, you know, So it's this, It's really what

1233
01:18:23,880 --> 01:18:27,159
we want to talk about is triangulation. You don't want

1234
01:18:27,199 --> 01:18:30,600
to stay on the vertical or the horizontal axis of

1235
01:18:30,720 --> 01:18:34,640
polarity of bad and good night and day. That's an

1236
01:18:34,760 --> 01:18:37,800
unresolved duality. Now a lot of people think you can

1237
01:18:37,840 --> 01:18:41,119
take the poles and just push them together. Well, that

1238
01:18:41,239 --> 01:18:45,359
boof goodbye phenomenality. You can't have no experience that way.

1239
01:18:45,640 --> 01:18:47,880
And other people kind of sit in the middle and

1240
01:18:47,960 --> 01:18:51,199
kid themselves, kid themselves, and that they're you know, I

1241
01:18:51,560 --> 01:18:55,159
have transcended duality. And what happens is you're still subject

1242
01:18:55,159 --> 01:18:57,520
to the line of fire. You will nothing here is

1243
01:18:57,520 --> 01:19:00,159
static in this realm. You will find yourself moving very

1244
01:19:00,199 --> 01:19:04,760
slowly to either side, imperceptibly so and then from your position,

1245
01:19:04,840 --> 01:19:07,199
you'll not really know if you're in the middle. So

1246
01:19:07,279 --> 01:19:10,359
what needs to happen? And this is another initiatic technique.

1247
01:19:10,399 --> 01:19:12,880
You'll see a lot of triangles, particularly in the Golden Dawn.

1248
01:19:13,479 --> 01:19:17,600
You triangulate, you find a position which is center but

1249
01:19:17,840 --> 01:19:22,720
above the line of verticality, and that is once you

1250
01:19:22,840 --> 01:19:26,479
Once you're able to sort of walk that middle pillar

1251
01:19:26,600 --> 01:19:29,760
and find the center point, you can rise above the

1252
01:19:29,800 --> 01:19:33,279
situation and apply what needs to be applied. You you

1253
01:19:33,359 --> 01:19:37,119
get a bird's eye view, and then you work as

1254
01:19:37,159 --> 01:19:40,439
an emissary of the divine by bringing balance to the

1255
01:19:40,479 --> 01:19:43,119
situation however you can, and you don't just do that

1256
01:19:43,199 --> 01:19:47,039
willy nilly. So there's a tremendous onus and responsibility that

1257
01:19:47,079 --> 01:19:48,960
you take on yourself. So you better be damn sure

1258
01:19:49,000 --> 01:19:50,439
this needs to happen and that you're the one to

1259
01:19:50,479 --> 01:19:56,079
do it now. On the other hand, you know I

1260
01:19:56,079 --> 01:20:00,800
would say, uh, just because if you can harness this

1261
01:20:00,920 --> 01:20:03,039
energy and move, it doesn't mean that you should be

1262
01:20:04,119 --> 01:20:07,079
doing anything outside of your own practice with it. And

1263
01:20:07,119 --> 01:20:12,560
I'll tell you why. When you become a magician, we

1264
01:20:12,680 --> 01:20:14,760
call it sort of lighting up on the astral But

1265
01:20:14,840 --> 01:20:17,319
really what it's more like is you become a whirlpool

1266
01:20:17,359 --> 01:20:21,039
that sucks all this energy in. And how fast and

1267
01:20:21,079 --> 01:20:26,039
how powerful that draw is is normally correspondent with how

1268
01:20:26,119 --> 01:20:30,359
much you practice how much inherent energy you kind of

1269
01:20:30,600 --> 01:20:32,800
are a battery for it. And also the moon cycles,

1270
01:20:32,840 --> 01:20:35,800
the lunar cycles are very important. Now. The thing is,

1271
01:20:35,920 --> 01:20:38,319
if you're really really great at pulling this energy in,

1272
01:20:38,600 --> 01:20:42,079
but let's say you've got no control over your libido,

1273
01:20:43,000 --> 01:20:45,359
you are going to that energy is going to come

1274
01:20:45,359 --> 01:20:49,159
through you, and instead of sublimating and radiating, you're going

1275
01:20:49,199 --> 01:20:54,760
to ground it in an orgasm or some other destructive tendency. Now,

1276
01:20:54,840 --> 01:20:59,119
orgasms aren't, like of themselves, destructive, but when you have

1277
01:20:59,199 --> 01:21:03,279
that much energy and that little self control, that's going

1278
01:21:03,319 --> 01:21:06,039
to dominate your life. And that again, in systems of

1279
01:21:06,079 --> 01:21:08,760
traditional medicine, that will kill you. You will die early

1280
01:21:09,279 --> 01:21:12,920
from wasting essence, wasting jing they call it. This is

1281
01:21:12,960 --> 01:21:17,319
not I'm not talking about, you know, seman retention. Here,

1282
01:21:17,479 --> 01:21:21,119
this new kind of weird reactionary thing that's going on.

1283
01:21:21,199 --> 01:21:24,760
This is an old thing where ancient doctors would tell

1284
01:21:24,800 --> 01:21:27,119
the Emperor of China how many times a day he

1285
01:21:27,199 --> 01:21:30,399
could orgas them if we wanted to have longevity, you know,

1286
01:21:30,439 --> 01:21:34,640
and it's still a thing in modern Chinese, traditional Chinese medicine.

1287
01:21:34,760 --> 01:21:39,439
So there's things like that, other destructive behaviors, addictions, things

1288
01:21:39,520 --> 01:21:43,520
like that, you know, overeating will it is a way

1289
01:21:43,560 --> 01:21:47,640
of kind of expressing that intensity of energy that is

1290
01:21:47,720 --> 01:21:51,039
ultimately self destructive. And so you need to have a

1291
01:21:51,159 --> 01:21:54,279
really firm grasp on these things. And you know, people

1292
01:21:54,560 --> 01:21:57,600
nowadays they don't understand these concepts. So they think they

1293
01:21:57,680 --> 01:22:00,000
think that all these ancient texts we're talking about morality.

1294
01:22:00,640 --> 01:22:05,560
They're not. They're talking about natural law. They're talking about

1295
01:22:05,600 --> 01:22:09,680
cause and effect, and they're talking about you know what

1296
01:22:10,119 --> 01:22:13,560
that which is the stuff, This is what it is.

1297
01:22:14,600 --> 01:22:17,840
And so now a lot of people balk at that.

1298
01:22:17,880 --> 01:22:21,079
They're very they are very reactive against that because of

1299
01:22:21,119 --> 01:22:24,640
the social moras of our time. But I mean the

1300
01:22:24,720 --> 01:22:29,000
social moras of our time, I mean they're kind of

1301
01:22:29,000 --> 01:22:31,319
responsible for the time. We like to point back at

1302
01:22:31,319 --> 01:22:35,800
this person and that person in this epoch. It's these guys.

1303
01:22:35,560 --> 01:22:38,119
It's what we are doing right now, the way we

1304
01:22:38,199 --> 01:22:40,279
are living and the way we are thinking and behaving

1305
01:22:40,800 --> 01:22:44,039
towards ourselves and each other, that is that keeps us

1306
01:22:44,079 --> 01:22:45,520
in this crisis.

1307
01:22:46,840 --> 01:22:51,039
Speaker 2: So reality is what I've called a cosmic cumshot. It

1308
01:22:51,079 --> 01:22:53,079
really is. You know, it comes down to that. You

1309
01:22:53,119 --> 01:22:58,359
know this concept and I identify well, yeah, no, I

1310
01:22:58,399 --> 01:23:02,479
think that that's came into exist. I think we're right

1311
01:23:02,520 --> 01:23:04,800
the seed of God, if you will, right the big Bang,

1312
01:23:04,840 --> 01:23:09,000
if you will, I identify with with Yoda when he

1313
01:23:09,760 --> 01:23:13,600
I'm a father. So when he dies, after answering so

1314
01:23:13,680 --> 01:23:17,439
many questions that Luke had for him, He's just like, Okay,

1315
01:23:17,600 --> 01:23:21,079
I'm done. You know, he just dies, he just leaves.

1316
01:23:21,079 --> 01:23:25,880
But one of the things that I've always speculated on

1317
01:23:26,840 --> 01:23:32,399
that I know holds the secrets. And you know, you

1318
01:23:32,479 --> 01:23:36,079
keep talking about the light, and in my opinion, the

1319
01:23:36,119 --> 01:23:40,439
secrets are in the light now and the manipulation of it. Now.

1320
01:23:40,560 --> 01:23:42,960
I don't know if it's physical light, because then you

1321
01:23:42,960 --> 01:23:45,520
can get into like you know, the cathedrals and like

1322
01:23:45,560 --> 01:23:47,920
what they were doing and were they invoking a spiritual

1323
01:23:47,960 --> 01:23:50,359
experience while you were in there because of the manipulation,

1324
01:23:51,119 --> 01:23:53,600
you know, the tiffany glass was made in a certain

1325
01:23:53,600 --> 01:23:56,880
alchemical procedure, so you know, you know the way they

1326
01:23:56,920 --> 01:23:59,560
made it. Does that have an effect on it? Or

1327
01:23:59,720 --> 01:24:03,000
was it more of like John D's katroptics, where you know,

1328
01:24:03,039 --> 01:24:07,119
you have the stellar rays where your soul would become

1329
01:24:07,159 --> 01:24:10,239
a mirror, right, and you can harness these rays that

1330
01:24:10,239 --> 01:24:13,840
are constantly coming up and down from above, and then

1331
01:24:13,880 --> 01:24:15,760
you have the you know, the whole stellar rayce thing

1332
01:24:15,800 --> 01:24:18,680
where a sacrifice plays a role into that where you're

1333
01:24:18,720 --> 01:24:22,079
able to snuff out that light and then you take

1334
01:24:22,199 --> 01:24:24,600
that and you can use it for something else in

1335
01:24:24,600 --> 01:24:28,239
another operation. So you know, this plays a role until

1336
01:24:28,279 --> 01:24:31,319
we were talking about earlier about you know the Illuminati,

1337
01:24:32,000 --> 01:24:36,039
they're the illuminated, right, did they know how to truly

1338
01:24:36,119 --> 01:24:38,600
manipulate the light? And again, I don't know if it's

1339
01:24:39,159 --> 01:24:43,520
the physical light that we see or something beyond or

1340
01:24:43,560 --> 01:24:46,720
maybe a mixture of both, right, because there is something

1341
01:24:46,760 --> 01:24:50,720
to be said about let there be light. Yeah, that's

1342
01:24:50,760 --> 01:24:51,279
the whole thing.

1343
01:24:52,000 --> 01:24:55,039
Speaker 3: Well, and the interesting thing here is twofold because this

1344
01:24:55,159 --> 01:24:58,159
is a very again a very very ancient idea. One

1345
01:24:58,199 --> 01:25:01,239
of the reasons that we are preoccupied, particularly in freemasonry

1346
01:25:01,239 --> 01:25:04,520
as I'm sure you're aware with the solar allegory, right,

1347
01:25:04,680 --> 01:25:10,079
I don't know about that. Masonry is predominantly preeminently a

1348
01:25:10,239 --> 01:25:13,840
solar allegory. You have the worship of a master in

1349
01:25:13,880 --> 01:25:16,600
the east, the junior warden in the south, the senior

1350
01:25:16,600 --> 01:25:19,720
warden in the west. Nothing is in the north. Why

1351
01:25:19,760 --> 01:25:23,079
because in the northern hemisphere the sun moves through the

1352
01:25:23,159 --> 01:25:29,359
southern skies. So it's the position, the triangular, the triangulation

1353
01:25:29,399 --> 01:25:32,279
of the officers in a Masonic lodge is the ecliptic.

1354
01:25:32,520 --> 01:25:34,600
It's the apparent path of the sun and the sky.

1355
01:25:35,000 --> 01:25:37,600
And this whole dying and rising kind of thing again,

1356
01:25:37,720 --> 01:25:40,319
is the sun dying in the west to be reborn

1357
01:25:40,359 --> 01:25:42,680
in the east every day, and then to achieve its

1358
01:25:42,800 --> 01:25:48,319
meridian height, its brightest in the in the mid heaven.

1359
01:25:48,760 --> 01:25:50,439
And this is the story of man, and this is

1360
01:25:50,439 --> 01:25:52,600
the story of the soul, and this is the story

1361
01:25:52,640 --> 01:25:56,960
of immortality and creation, because for some reason, this is

1362
01:25:57,000 --> 01:26:01,600
the mental material that is creating the dream stuffs of God,

1363
01:26:02,279 --> 01:26:06,520
the dream life of our of our creator. And so

1364
01:26:06,640 --> 01:26:09,840
Plato actually, in the book seven of the Republic, he

1365
01:26:09,880 --> 01:26:12,800
talks about the allegory of the cave. It's pretty famous, Well,

1366
01:26:12,800 --> 01:26:16,439
what does the prisoner who has been freed, what is

1367
01:26:16,479 --> 01:26:19,960
the first thing that he encounters? The sun? But he

1368
01:26:20,039 --> 01:26:24,199
talks about how that sun is just an image and

1369
01:26:24,319 --> 01:26:28,319
analog for what he calls the sun behind the sun,

1370
01:26:29,119 --> 01:26:33,920
which is that it's the same principle of radiance and

1371
01:26:34,039 --> 01:26:37,800
beneficence and life and light. Right, they looked and they

1372
01:26:37,840 --> 01:26:41,399
saw like, oh, things grow when there's light and heat

1373
01:26:41,439 --> 01:26:46,279
on them. You know. Oh, that's what we need for life,

1374
01:26:46,680 --> 01:26:49,720
you know. And and uh, and for human beings to see,

1375
01:26:50,800 --> 01:26:53,960
we need this kind of light. And so but that

1376
01:26:54,199 --> 01:26:57,880
to Plato and to the Platonic traditions that influenced, you know,

1377
01:26:58,039 --> 01:27:01,279
the Platonic tradition influenced all the Hermetic stuff as well.

1378
01:27:02,239 --> 01:27:04,600
People like to think that's exclusively Egyptian. There is not

1379
01:27:04,680 --> 01:27:08,359
a single Hermetic text that predates the Platonic dialogues, you know,

1380
01:27:08,439 --> 01:27:12,920
it's it's Breco Egyptian. He was using the same vernacular

1381
01:27:12,920 --> 01:27:16,239
as Plato in the Hermetic dialogues. It's the same words

1382
01:27:16,239 --> 01:27:20,479
meaning the same terms. And so he talks about the

1383
01:27:20,520 --> 01:27:24,279
sun behind the sun, which is a metaphysical principle of

1384
01:27:24,399 --> 01:27:28,880
radiance and giving and light and moving outward from the center,

1385
01:27:29,720 --> 01:27:34,079
and so it's kind of both. There's this tradition in

1386
01:27:34,319 --> 01:27:38,439
Neoplatonism late Platonism that's a part of the theurgic practice

1387
01:27:38,640 --> 01:27:42,239
of you know, I mentioned in before Yambucus. It's called photogogia,

1388
01:27:43,119 --> 01:27:47,920
and it's the work of the luminous body working on

1389
01:27:48,000 --> 01:27:51,399
the ether to pure your etheric body. They called it

1390
01:27:51,439 --> 01:27:54,359
the Ovgo eighties soma the luminous body, or they called

1391
01:27:54,399 --> 01:28:00,439
it the Okima numaticon the spiritual chariot, right, because in

1392
01:28:00,520 --> 01:28:03,279
order for a soul to be brought into earth, it

1393
01:28:03,479 --> 01:28:06,800
had to have a chariot, it had to be vehiculate, vehicularized,

1394
01:28:07,359 --> 01:28:12,079
and so that chariot, that spiritual pneumatic energy, energetic chariot,

1395
01:28:12,359 --> 01:28:16,800
has to be strength and purified, rectified. And so this

1396
01:28:16,960 --> 01:28:21,119
was done through lifestyle, through the pursuit of virtue, through

1397
01:28:21,960 --> 01:28:30,039
diet dietary specific dietary regimens, and also things like prayer

1398
01:28:30,520 --> 01:28:34,439
and visions of the sun and being out before Helios

1399
01:28:34,479 --> 01:28:38,920
and taking in the rays of Helios and so, you know,

1400
01:28:38,960 --> 01:28:46,479
to these people, all of reality was symbolic of a

1401
01:28:46,720 --> 01:28:49,840
metaphysical truth. So they didn't have to say, well, is

1402
01:28:49,840 --> 01:28:52,560
it one or the other, It's both it's both because

1403
01:28:52,760 --> 01:28:56,680
all of reality and its entirety is a symbol for

1404
01:28:56,800 --> 01:28:58,159
the truth of God.

1405
01:29:00,359 --> 01:29:03,479
Speaker 2: So the Son of God, I mean, we all think

1406
01:29:03,520 --> 01:29:06,840
of it as like the sun that you give birth to.

1407
01:29:06,960 --> 01:29:10,560
But it's making me think of this the sun, right,

1408
01:29:10,960 --> 01:29:15,359
the one thing that is the life force of humanity.

1409
01:29:15,479 --> 01:29:19,039
And I've heard the sun could be a portal as well.

1410
01:29:19,039 --> 01:29:21,680
I've heard that souls can pass through it or come

1411
01:29:21,720 --> 01:29:23,319
out of it something or other or something like that

1412
01:29:23,960 --> 01:29:26,319
might have been a little new age where I heard

1413
01:29:26,359 --> 01:29:28,399
it at, but right, the sun being a portal. And

1414
01:29:28,439 --> 01:29:30,479
then you have the concept of the black sun as well,

1415
01:29:30,520 --> 01:29:33,359
which is kind of sort of like this inversion of it. Right,

1416
01:29:33,880 --> 01:29:38,319
So that's something that I've always thought about the secrets

1417
01:29:38,359 --> 01:29:40,960
of light and what it means. And then all these

1418
01:29:41,119 --> 01:29:45,239
guys like John d who were super into optics and

1419
01:29:45,640 --> 01:29:49,680
you know, all these concepts. One last question before we

1420
01:29:49,720 --> 01:29:52,000
wrap up. So you have this book that has a

1421
01:29:52,000 --> 01:29:55,199
lot of practices, and you wrote the first one as

1422
01:29:55,239 --> 01:29:57,079
a more of the theory, and then now you have

1423
01:29:57,119 --> 01:30:00,359
the practice, which is perfect because in order to do

1424
01:30:00,439 --> 01:30:04,760
something you need an instructional manual. But what are other

1425
01:30:04,800 --> 01:30:10,359
than aggravating existing conditions? What are some of the consequences

1426
01:30:10,479 --> 01:30:14,359
of using magic and what could go wrong? I think

1427
01:30:14,399 --> 01:30:17,439
you mentioned a couple you summon something that you can't unsummon,

1428
01:30:17,560 --> 01:30:21,000
that you maybe didn't learn its name, so therefore you

1429
01:30:21,000 --> 01:30:23,159
don't know how the hell to call it away. But

1430
01:30:23,239 --> 01:30:25,479
what are some other things that maybe people should watch

1431
01:30:25,479 --> 01:30:27,760
out for if they are going to be dipping their

1432
01:30:27,800 --> 01:30:29,079
toes into all this stuff.

1433
01:30:30,479 --> 01:30:33,800
Speaker 3: Balance is key because magic will naturally throw you out

1434
01:30:33,800 --> 01:30:40,479
of balance. So to undergo that sort of purificatory quote unquote,

1435
01:30:40,880 --> 01:30:45,159
you know, sequence of spiritual alchemy is a preliminary It's

1436
01:30:45,359 --> 01:30:48,600
creating a safeguard so that you know yourself a little

1437
01:30:48,640 --> 01:30:51,239
more and you are more in touch with your energy bodies,

1438
01:30:51,279 --> 01:30:54,560
your emotional life, your physical life, the realities of yourself.

1439
01:30:55,720 --> 01:31:00,319
And this is not a great time I am in

1440
01:31:00,359 --> 01:31:02,560
the world for that kind of stuff. People will give

1441
01:31:02,600 --> 01:31:04,279
a lot of lip service. They'll say a lot of

1442
01:31:04,840 --> 01:31:08,399
platitudinous things about the shadow. But then like you, look

1443
01:31:09,119 --> 01:31:11,199
all anybody's doing to say, and you're the problem. You're

1444
01:31:11,239 --> 01:31:13,560
the problem. You're the problem. Will take that ray and

1445
01:31:13,680 --> 01:31:16,840
invert it, turn it on yourself. What in me is

1446
01:31:16,920 --> 01:31:21,199
making me a problem or making problems in my life,

1447
01:31:21,319 --> 01:31:23,760
because if you're not prepared for that, what if you're

1448
01:31:23,760 --> 01:31:27,600
not prepared by that, taking in this energy will inevitably

1449
01:31:27,640 --> 01:31:32,039
destroy you. Levy said it, Lavatsky said it. The magicians

1450
01:31:32,039 --> 01:31:34,880
of the Golden Dawn warned about it. You can keep

1451
01:31:34,920 --> 01:31:38,399
going back because you keep going back. Anybody that's there's

1452
01:31:38,399 --> 01:31:42,840
always a warning that this stuff will will kill you,

1453
01:31:43,520 --> 01:31:47,600
really literally kill you, if not drive you completely insane.

1454
01:31:48,399 --> 01:31:51,279
But in some measure, you know, and I've seen that

1455
01:31:51,319 --> 01:31:56,680
happen as well. Now, the really thing, the really interesting

1456
01:31:56,760 --> 01:32:00,000
thing is this, right, So, this idea of a devil

1457
01:32:00,159 --> 01:32:02,800
on one shoulder and an angel on the other, it's

1458
01:32:02,840 --> 01:32:07,159
not new, and it's not Christian only. This is a

1459
01:32:07,279 --> 01:32:09,479
very old idea. It goes back to the ancient Greeks.

1460
01:32:09,520 --> 01:32:12,920
They believed in the Hellenistic Greeks, they believed in the

1461
01:32:12,920 --> 01:32:16,680
Agatho diamond the guide of good counsel, and the Coco

1462
01:32:16,760 --> 01:32:20,039
diamond the guide of bad council. And there were a

1463
01:32:20,079 --> 01:32:24,880
lot of diamonds that served to drag mortals down further

1464
01:32:24,960 --> 01:32:30,439
into materiality and not let them rise in spiritual assent.

1465
01:32:34,359 --> 01:32:39,079
There was a theorist in the eighteenth century. His name

1466
01:32:39,119 --> 01:32:42,920
was Martine de Pasqually, and he founded something called the Elukhens,

1467
01:32:43,319 --> 01:32:45,720
the elect Priests of the Universe. It was a sort

1468
01:32:45,760 --> 01:32:49,560
of his idea of chivalric masonry, but he took in

1469
01:32:49,560 --> 01:32:52,119
a direction where they were summoning demons for the purposes

1470
01:32:52,159 --> 01:32:57,119
of exorcism, literally trying to exorcise demons from the sphere

1471
01:32:57,159 --> 01:32:59,920
of the earth. It was a very intense thing to

1472
01:33:00,000 --> 01:33:05,199
exists in the present day. Now. He wrote something called

1473
01:33:05,239 --> 01:33:08,119
the Treatise on the Reintegration of Beings, or really it

1474
01:33:08,159 --> 01:33:11,000
was put together after his death by some of his

1475
01:33:11,039 --> 01:33:19,000
students from his notes and letters. Mike Osborne. Michael Osborne

1476
01:33:19,000 --> 01:33:22,199
did a great translation of the Treatise out of the

1477
01:33:22,239 --> 01:33:26,439
original French. It's available on Rose Circle Books. I actually

1478
01:33:26,439 --> 01:33:31,159
did the audio book so for that. Now Pasqually talks

1479
01:33:31,199 --> 01:33:36,680
about how when the soul fell into humanity it became

1480
01:33:36,720 --> 01:33:40,560
what what what gets translated as a pensive being, and

1481
01:33:40,600 --> 01:33:43,199
what he really said was that none of our thoughts

1482
01:33:43,199 --> 01:33:46,199
are our own. And this is past Qually, but it's

1483
01:33:46,279 --> 01:33:48,960
it's it's resonant with this idea of the Agatho diamond,

1484
01:33:49,000 --> 01:33:51,520
the Cocko diamond. None of our thoughts are truly our own.

1485
01:33:52,359 --> 01:33:55,479
The only the truest expression of a human soul is

1486
01:33:55,520 --> 01:34:01,760
the action it takes. Which voice it's heeding. Is it

1487
01:34:01,760 --> 01:34:03,640
the agatho diamond we're listening to, or is it the

1488
01:34:03,640 --> 01:34:06,399
cocko diamond we're listening to. And the very interesting thing

1489
01:34:06,439 --> 01:34:09,439
is that most of the time they sound like you.

1490
01:34:10,880 --> 01:34:16,800
So if you're not prepared to become aware, to become

1491
01:34:16,960 --> 01:34:21,039
sensitive to the inner realms, you will think you are

1492
01:34:21,079 --> 01:34:26,000
having a thought and this long con, this long game

1493
01:34:26,760 --> 01:34:31,239
will be played, and you may not face the consequences

1494
01:34:31,279 --> 01:34:34,720
on this side of the veil. I'd rather face them

1495
01:34:34,760 --> 01:34:40,800
here than on the other side. So that that's that's

1496
01:34:40,880 --> 01:34:44,319
something that is very very important. And then you have Zausim,

1497
01:34:44,319 --> 01:34:46,560
as we mentioned him. He talks about something called the

1498
01:34:46,640 --> 01:34:51,119
anti memon diamond, the mimicking diamond, and that diamond is

1499
01:34:51,159 --> 01:34:55,800
one that is evil, wants to destroy you, but speaks

1500
01:34:55,840 --> 01:34:59,319
to you as if it were good, and again plays

1501
01:34:59,399 --> 01:35:01,920
this long con. You see this a lot in like

1502
01:35:02,079 --> 01:35:06,039
Celtic Irish literally fairy tales, the tales of the fae.

1503
01:35:06,439 --> 01:35:09,640
You know, Originally nowadays we think of them as like

1504
01:35:09,680 --> 01:35:11,600
these cute little you know, tinker bell things. These were

1505
01:35:11,640 --> 01:35:16,000
horrifying beings that were involved in contractual relationships with humans

1506
01:35:16,239 --> 01:35:19,680
that ultimately led them to their downfall. And so these

1507
01:35:19,720 --> 01:35:22,840
things are out there, and if you're not if you're

1508
01:35:22,880 --> 01:35:27,039
not trained, you will not be prepared to know what

1509
01:35:27,199 --> 01:35:31,600
is going on. So it's very easy to like just

1510
01:35:31,640 --> 01:35:35,359
take a person and destroy them if you're if you,

1511
01:35:35,560 --> 01:35:39,039
if you're somebody who is is going to be dipping

1512
01:35:39,079 --> 01:35:41,880
their toes in this in the deep end.

1513
01:35:41,760 --> 01:35:46,039
Speaker 2: Here either way, by the book. But proceed with caution,

1514
01:35:46,880 --> 01:35:47,840
is well, I.

1515
01:35:47,800 --> 01:35:51,159
Speaker 3: Give you the cautions. I don't do anything that's not

1516
01:35:51,319 --> 01:35:54,840
that doesn't have some kind of guardrail, and that's thanks

1517
01:35:54,840 --> 01:35:57,960
to the Golden Dawn. The Golden Dawn gets looked at

1518
01:35:58,000 --> 01:36:01,159
as kind of like these magical germophoone, but really what

1519
01:36:01,199 --> 01:36:04,399
it is is we are creating, as best as we can,

1520
01:36:05,159 --> 01:36:08,359
laboratory like experiments for magic. Right the same way you

1521
01:36:08,399 --> 01:36:12,079
would create a sterile field to like do some sort

1522
01:36:12,119 --> 01:36:14,199
of we're doing that energetically.

1523
01:36:15,399 --> 01:36:19,239
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I really enjoyed our conversation. Man. All the things

1524
01:36:19,279 --> 01:36:22,720
you say, you just make my mind just go off

1525
01:36:22,760 --> 01:36:25,079
into places and I'm trying to connect all the dots.

1526
01:36:25,079 --> 01:36:30,479
And I really appreciate you joining me today and enlightening

1527
01:36:30,560 --> 01:36:34,079
us on your work and the esoteric and the occult.

1528
01:36:34,159 --> 01:36:36,239
I really appreciate it. Can you let the people know

1529
01:36:36,319 --> 01:36:39,239
one more time where they can find you, your podcast,

1530
01:36:39,319 --> 01:36:41,920
your work, all that good stuff for those that didn't

1531
01:36:41,920 --> 01:36:42,760
catch it at the beginning.

1532
01:36:43,880 --> 01:36:46,560
Speaker 3: Sure. Well, First, thank you very much for having me on.

1533
01:36:46,600 --> 01:36:49,439
I really appreciate it. It's been a privilege to talk you.

1534
01:36:49,880 --> 01:36:54,279
Though you called yourself an armchair occultist, you had several

1535
01:36:54,439 --> 01:37:02,199
very insightful things to say, and the questions are just great.

1536
01:37:02,479 --> 01:37:05,399
You know a lot sometimes like you don't as a guest.

1537
01:37:05,399 --> 01:37:06,920
I'm sure you know, like you don't know what you're

1538
01:37:06,920 --> 01:37:11,039
walking into all the time. But this was great, and

1539
01:37:11,399 --> 01:37:13,399
you do put on a great show, and it's it

1540
01:37:13,520 --> 01:37:15,720
shows because you've got a following and people know you.

1541
01:37:16,000 --> 01:37:19,359
So thanks for having me on. You can find me

1542
01:37:19,399 --> 01:37:21,640
at Ike Baker dot com. I K E B A

1543
01:37:21,840 --> 01:37:23,800
k E R. The last thing that I want to

1544
01:37:23,800 --> 01:37:28,600
plug is really important to me. This October eighteenth to

1545
01:37:28,640 --> 01:37:32,880
the twenty sixth, I'm going to be leading an excursion.

1546
01:37:33,000 --> 01:37:37,560
It's an immersive it's a field immersive excursion in Egypt,

1547
01:37:38,319 --> 01:37:40,680
and it's going to be an Upper and Lower Egypt.

1548
01:37:40,720 --> 01:37:44,319
We're going over the course of nine days to some

1549
01:37:44,520 --> 01:37:51,600
of the most important and magnificent ancient temple sites like

1550
01:37:51,640 --> 01:37:55,079
the osireon the Temple of Osiris at Abydos, the Temple

1551
01:37:55,079 --> 01:37:58,560
of Hathor at Dendaro look Sore, the Valley of the

1552
01:37:58,600 --> 01:38:01,880
Kings and Queens, all over the place. It's going to

1553
01:38:01,880 --> 01:38:05,199
be absolutely incredible. I'm going to teach hands on a

1554
01:38:06,199 --> 01:38:10,720
group of sixteen participants the history, theory, and practice of

1555
01:38:10,800 --> 01:38:14,760
Greco Egyptian theoretic magic. It's gonna be a once in

1556
01:38:14,800 --> 01:38:17,800
a lifetime experience, probably because I won't do this again.

1557
01:38:18,439 --> 01:38:20,760
It's just been very logistically heavy. But I can't wait

1558
01:38:20,800 --> 01:38:23,159
to get back into Egypt. I've gone every year for

1559
01:38:23,199 --> 01:38:27,640
three years now. But yes, this is going to be

1560
01:38:27,680 --> 01:38:33,079
absolutely incredible against sixteen participants. Registration is open until March

1561
01:38:33,279 --> 01:38:36,520
twenty first. For anybody that's interested, you can message me

1562
01:38:36,560 --> 01:38:39,279
on my site, and there's more that one has here

1563
01:38:39,399 --> 01:38:43,159
up on my website. You can check out the open

1564
01:38:43,159 --> 01:38:44,920
house video that we did where I went through the

1565
01:38:45,079 --> 01:38:48,960
entire itinerary and how I put these rituals back together,

1566
01:38:49,760 --> 01:38:55,640
reconstructed them from ancient sources and stuff like that. We're

1567
01:38:55,680 --> 01:38:58,800
going to have private access to these temples so that

1568
01:38:58,960 --> 01:39:01,760
is something that is extremely rare, and we'll also be staying.

1569
01:39:02,399 --> 01:39:05,800
We'll have a three nights day to ourselves on one

1570
01:39:05,880 --> 01:39:09,159
hundred and fifty acres of King's Island in the middle

1571
01:39:09,159 --> 01:39:11,359
of the Nile River. So again that's going to be

1572
01:39:11,359 --> 01:39:14,960
in October of this year. Registration is open till March twenty. First,

1573
01:39:15,359 --> 01:39:17,399
reach out to me if you want more information.

1574
01:39:18,920 --> 01:39:20,560
Speaker 2: Awesome. Yeah, you're not going to get that with a

1575
01:39:20,600 --> 01:39:23,039
Graham Hancock tour for sure. He's not going to be

1576
01:39:23,079 --> 01:39:26,159
teaching you the secrets of magic and all that stuff.

1577
01:39:26,199 --> 01:39:28,800
So make sure to hick ike up for that and

1578
01:39:28,880 --> 01:39:30,479
check out his website, check out his work. And I

1579
01:39:30,520 --> 01:39:34,640
appreciate your kind words. I am a student and I

1580
01:39:34,680 --> 01:39:38,000
am just here to learn have interesting conversations. So this

1581
01:39:38,039 --> 01:39:39,439
is very fun for me and this is what I

1582
01:39:39,560 --> 01:39:43,359
enjoy doing, so I appreciate that. And as always, everyone

1583
01:39:43,399 --> 01:39:45,359
make sure to follow the show on social media at

1584
01:39:45,479 --> 01:39:50,399
the one on one podcast www dot tj OJP dot

1585
01:39:50,399 --> 01:39:58,199
com colt. This Monday Amunculus Owners Manual, make sure to comment, like, share, subscribe,

1586
01:39:58,800 --> 01:40:01,079
all that stuff. Let us know what you think down

1587
01:40:01,119 --> 01:40:04,000
in the comments is have a conversation and there's always everyone,

1588
01:40:04,279 --> 01:40:06,840
I'll catch you on the other side. Goodbye, no