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Speaker 1: And then I started realizing, well, there's a lot of

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cults that are popping up, right, Like Hollywood has a

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lot of cults, a lot of.

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Speaker 2: Different Was there a specific shift that happened in Hollywood

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where it went from like we're gonna use James Bond

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superhero America's great, to like, no, we're going to start

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diving in some of this more cult imagery.

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Speaker 1: And his papers were about then chemicals actually changing gender

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in men and women in the future set.

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Speaker 2: We could give this a listers who are immersed in

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Hollywood are spies? Are verified spies for America?

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Speaker 1: Is that is that?

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Speaker 2: Is that your mind having a chemical trip? Or do

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you think it's actually opening you up to a spirit realm?

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I only ask for Alex Jones, is your connection? I

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have a buddies whose daughter was at Sandy Hook when

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it happened, and so hearing anyone say like this wasn't

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real when I know people directly connected, I was like, man,

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this is it's a bad look for anyone to be

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propagating this line. All right, ladies and gentlemen.

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Speaker 1: I am with.

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Speaker 2: Someone that is known to many as a renaissance man.

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I think he's a he might be a savant with

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the amount of books and amount of study he's done.

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We're talking about his new book, Esoteric Hollywood number three.

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We got number two right here. This is gonna be

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a funk podcast, Jay Dyer, Thanks for being here, man, absolutely, Man,

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Can you put a mic up a little bit closer

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to you.

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Speaker 1: I absolutely glad to be here. Glad that stoking some

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drama with you led.

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Speaker 2: To a podcast we'll get We'll sure, we'll get into that, man.

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Thanks for being here.

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Speaker 1: Bro.

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Speaker 2: You're all the way from Nashville.

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Speaker 1: We did. Yeah, we came from Tennessee. It was a

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long drive, so a lot of weird interesting things in California.

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California is a weird place, is it? Glad to be

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But it's more weird than Nashville. But Nashville's getting more

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and more weird because everyone's coming there from California exactly. Yeah,

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you're welcome, So we're becoming California. Man.

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Speaker 2: I know you primarily from the debate stuff, and I

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know you've done some other stuff that's kind of loosely

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connected to I don't use the word conspiracy, but I

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don't know how else to describe it, right, And then

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you're like this Onion, where like I appealed away and

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I went deeper on some of your stuff in this

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esoteric Hollywood series is really interesting, which I wanted to

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get into. I'm a big film guy. You talk about Inception,

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you talk about some of my favorite movies, so I'm

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like really excited to talk to you about that. But

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before we get into that, for folks who don't know

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anything about Jay Dyer, give us a little background where

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you're from your story.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm from the Bible Belt. I grew up in Tennessee,

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small town in the middle of nowhere, but my dad

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entered the military, so we moved out here to San Diego,

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so I lived here for a lot of my youth.

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We moved back to Tennessee for high school. Okay, so

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in high school I was a pretty wild party dude

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and then started getting into Christianity about my senior year,

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so I read the Bible cover to cover my senior

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year and started going to Bible studies. Got invited to

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a bunch of different Protestant churches. I was raised Baptist

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but never really took it very serious, but then I

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got interested in theology pretty hardcore. I went to Bible

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College for a couple of years, didn't finish it because

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I wasn't I was no longer convinced of Baptist theology.

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A Bible college, and I was at a Baptist school

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and they actually caught me drinking a beer at a

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restaurant one time. They kicked you out, and well, they said,

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either you can leave, or you find another school and leave,

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or you're gonna pay double tuition because I got like

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a Baptist discount rate.

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Speaker 2: So because you were a Baptist. Yeah, so, but Baptist

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don't drink typically folks who don't know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So at this Southern Baptist Theological seminary Bible college,

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it's called Boys Bible College, they gave me an ultimatum.

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So I was like, all right, well, I guess I'll

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go be a Presbyterian then, so okay, it was all

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over beer. So you.

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Speaker 2: Start what made you go from like I'm kind of

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casual in my faith, so like I'm going to take

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it seriously.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to start going to college. So being super

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well party dude, I had a really bad acid trip

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and I'm not one of those people that like God

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spoke to me my astid true it wasn't like that,

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but I did have a pretty bad experience. It was

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like a very jarring bad tres when I was seventeen.

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And that's what kind of got me interested just in

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like spirituality and good and evil and kind of philosophical questions.

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So I started reading the Bible at that point, and

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that's what got me into going to Bible studies, going

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to you know, different Protestant churches. I didn't know what

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church I was going to be affiliated with, so I

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wasn't really convinced a Baptist, and I had a time

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period where I went to some charismatic churches because I

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read the Book of Acts and I was like, well,

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looks like they're doing that stuff, so where are my

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avenger powers? Exactly? Yeah. Yeah, So I had a phase

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of that. But then I realized like, well, if I

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wanted to choose a church, I probably should learn some

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church history. Sure, and so I thought the best avenue

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for that would be Bible College. Okay, so, still being

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technically a Baptist, I went to Voice Bible College for

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a while, and then I went to a different It

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was an unaccredited seminary, Bonson Seminary actually at here in California. Okay,

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so I don't know if you know who Greg Bonnson is,

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but he was like a really famous apologist for Presbyterianism. Calvinists,

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apologists debated all the ath back in the eighties and

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nineties was really good. So I went to Bonson Seminary

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for about a year, and then I started doubting Protestanism.

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So that took me into a totally different direction.

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Speaker 2: But so you go from kind of casual sounds like

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mainline Baptists, sounds fairly strict in terms of no alcohol.

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Speaker 1: That's that's well, I didn't know it was just the

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Bible College had that policy. Okay, so you know most

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Southern Baptists have in the past had a no alcohol policy,

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but this Bible College was strict on that got it.

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And so plus I was arguing with everybody about theologies.

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I think they were looking very way to like you

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were that guy. Maybe he needed because I was wondering

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about that, like infant baptism or believers Baptism and so anyway,

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but I ended up moving on to just different places.

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So you go from.

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Speaker 2: Baptist Presbyterian, kind of more Calvinist leaning, getting more into

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church history, and then where do you land after that?

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Speaker 1: So I had a professor at Monson Seminary who was

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a church history professor, and he's assigned this massive amount

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of church like church fathers in church history. So I

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read all of that, and then I was just in

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this quandary and I was like, well, you know, what

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about the canon scripture, what about the sacraments? This kind

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of stuff. So I decided I was gonna have to

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read Augustine himself because I had not yet read him.

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I only read.

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Speaker 2: Because the Calvinists love a gust I know, right.

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Speaker 1: So I was like, I gotta go see what he

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actually says. So I wrote All the City of God

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at Bible College, and then I read against the Dentatists

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and against the Palladians, his anti Pallasian writings. So I

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was becoming more and more convinced of like a high

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view of the sacraments, that kind of.

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Speaker 2: Stuff you felt like in the circles you were in,

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there wasn't a high view of like communion and battle.

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Speaker 1: Because I was in a hardcore like Westminster Confession, interesting

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Calvinist churchure. Okay, so they had a pretty I mean

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amongst Calvinists, it can differ but my pastor happened to

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be pretty low church. So you go.

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Speaker 2: So you read Augustine, which is interesting because Augustine, from

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understanding as he was like a North African dude, right,

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So for folks who were like Christianity's a white man religion,

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it's like, well everyone kind of loves Augustine. Protestants, Catholic.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and he's a Numidian though, And I don't know

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if he was half black, half white or what, but

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I mean, yeah, he was definitely ethnic ethnic to say

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the least. Yeah, But I loved his theology and so

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and I went beyond that. I read like on Christian Doctrine,

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I read I love the sermons above the Church Fathers set.

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Basically is what happened that big thirty eight volume Philip

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Schaft set. You read all of that. No, I just

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started plumbing through Augustin, Okay, just just a Gustin and

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then you went to the rest got it? Well, I know,

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I didn't even read any any Eastern Fathers. I was

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just like, I don't know about that, Okay. So I

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read Jerome and then I read Ambrose. So I went

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heavy into that because I was trying to figure it

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out like with this professor who I had, and we

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ended up having this big confrontation because he was like,

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you can't believe this and that. I'm like, well, but

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you're assigning me to all the guys that do believe that. Anyway,

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long story short, that read that led to me starting

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to read Aquinas and starting to reading a bunch of

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Catholic stuff. So when I was twenty three, I became Catholic. Okay, Yeah,

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so I was Catholic throughout most of my twenties, okay,

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and you're like, all in, yeah, I was. I went

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to inquire about monastic life, okay, and then I realized

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all the dudes there, including the guy who's in charge

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of it, they're all skittles, should say, Okay. I was like,

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you could tell that just from it was obvious. It

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was obvious. But I had other people telling me in

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the traditional Catholic circles like if you go that route,

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they're all skittles. Uh huh as well known, Yeah huh.

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Speaker 2: I've I've had Father Simon On who's Catholic priest, so

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he's local, and I connected with another one. I didn't

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get that vibe.

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Speaker 1: Well, no, no, I'm talking about Dominicans specifically, because I was

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really into Aquinas, so I was like, okay, he was

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a Dominican, so I'll just check this out. I went

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and met with the Diaces spiritual advisor. Dude.

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Speaker 2: I was like, I'm good, You're good, okay, and so

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so Calvinists to Catholic and you're you're you're all in.

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Were you starting to do Catholic apologetics or not?

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Speaker 1: Really? I did, Yeah, it was kind of like apologetics

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that got me interested because my hero was Bonson, okay,

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and he debated a famous Catholic apologist who kind of

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was best friends with Scott Harn. You probably heard of

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Scott Harn a little bit, and uh, that was like

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there was this wave of people that left Calvinism in

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the nineties for Catholicism and that was like Mattatics and

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Scott Harn and then I liked all those guys, read

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all those guys. So I read Scott Hahn's book and

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then I got into Jerry Mattatics stuff and he beat

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Bonson in a debate. So for me that was kind

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of like a crushing moment because with these written debates

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or what kind of debate no audio audio? Okay, you

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can still find you still find out. Yeah, Boonson versus Mattatics.

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They debated Kennel Scripture and they debated Mary I view

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look Mary, So yeah, I should go back and check

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check some of that out. Doctor. Probably find those I

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think they're I know they're on word in P three.

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I don't know if they're on YouTube or not. But anyway,

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got it now. So that was me when I was

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like twenty twenty one twenty two. I was like just

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trying to weed out all this stuff and reading all

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these books. I had a job, by the way, that

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made it really easy for me to just read all day. Yeah,

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so what was your job? A paint mixer? A paint

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mixer okay, literally watching paint dry mixer mixing. No, no,

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So like, uh, it's funny because my last name is

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dire and so there had to be some kind of

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providential connect God has like a humor dying the past.

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For ten years, I was a paint store manager, paint mixer,

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but like from I'd say from like because all the

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painters are drunks, right, so they come in at like

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first thing in the morning, hungover. Yeah, and then nobody

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comes in the paint store until like four in the afternoon,

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you have like a whole day to dis and read

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very blue collar of you. It was I'm gonna have

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to put on some genes Canadian succeedo like Zach Sparazzo. Okay, Now,

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did you ever go down.

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Speaker 2: The route of the what is the the Catholics that

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don't like the second Second Vatican Council was?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I went progressively hardcore tradcast. So when I became call,

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like in two thousand and three, I went to the

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regular church.

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Speaker 2: It's like mel Gibson vibes, right. I eventually went there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, that took ten years or nine years. I

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went to regular like Novasorto down the road church. But

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then I got somebody handed me some information about the

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Latin Mass, so I started reading a lot of traditional

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Catholic stuff. So within a few years I was going

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to the Society Saint Piece the tense Latin masks for

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the next almost decade.

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Speaker 2: Now the church who were going to are they in

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communion with Rome or are they considered schinematic?

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Speaker 1: The first church I went to was just normal, normal

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Cathocolic church, and then I got more and more trad

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and went to the Memphis SSPX Chapel, which they're in

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this weird status where like they will say the name

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of the Pope in the in the Mass and the liturgy,

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but Rome considers them in this like halfway not full

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communion status. H So they've been they've been arguing with

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Rome for the last twenty years. And the theory there

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is that they changed the order of communion around the

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Second Vatican Council. It's a lot of things. It's like

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the SSPX would take issue with the Novasorto mass itself,

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they would take issue with the acumenism of Vatican two,

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the statements of Vatican two about Muslims and Christian abortions

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and all that kind of stuff, So they would take

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issue with all that. So for the SSPX, like a

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Vatican two is a tricky issue because the popes have

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obviously taught it and confirmed it. They don't like it,

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they want to reject it. So it's this really weird

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kind of halfway position.

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Speaker 2: Interesting, Okay, so then from from there you go from

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from Catholic to Eastern Orthodox. Is that when to change it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Well, so in two thousand and seven I started

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doubting because two thousand and eight nine, right and you

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know these things are not black and white, like you

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have phases where you doubt something. And so I started

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reading Eastern Church Fathers. And at the time I was

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dating girl who we were both going to be Orthodox

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and get married. So we went through the Catechumenate. But

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I was still very Tomistic, very Augustinian, so I just

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wasn't ready to convert to orthoxy So I just held.

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Speaker 2: Off, okay, and just but you were going to Eastern

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Orthodox Church.

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Speaker 1: So we did the whole year of like we did

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a community, the whole catechumen in two thousand and eight,

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and then when it came time to be Chris made

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and received an Orthodox Church, I was like, I'm just

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not ready to do this, okay, So I held off.

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Speaker 2: So did you go back to Catholic a little bit?

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Speaker 1: But then I just kind of like was just in limbo, okay,

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So I didn't do anything, okay because I didn't want

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to go back to Nubsorto. I didn't believe the tradcat

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stuff anymore. I wasn't convinced of Orthodoxy, so I was

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just in a kind of a limbo state, in a limbo.

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Speaker 2: Was there was any moment in your journey there's like

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some sort of crisis of faith in general, like like

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I'm not even sure about all of this. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: No, I had a period where like I was like

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not sure about it. I was never atheist, but I

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was like, maybe Christianity isn't true. So I read perennialists,

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I read neoplatonists. I was interested in all that stuff.

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Speaker 2: It's just around the same time you're working on your

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philosophy degree.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, yeah, so this is finishing up undergrad and

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then about the time of starting grad school around twenty

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eleven twelve thirteen, would.

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Speaker 2: You say you were like a theist at that point

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a deist? What would you have now?

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Speaker 1: I would say, like maybe platonism Neoplatonism, Like I thought

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there was definitely a God. I never doubted God's existence,

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but I was like, well, maybe it's Unitarian, maybe it's

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not Trinity. Okay, right. So then what got me back

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in that direction was I started reading Saint Maximus a

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Confessor around twenty thirteen, and then I read I was like,

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I'm gonna go back and reread the Bible. So I

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went back through the entire scriptures and I noticed a

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lot of stuff I'd never noted. I mean, I was

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always really interested in biblical theology, but rereading it from

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the Lens and the Vanas point of Eastern Church fathers

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was something that I think was a momentous change my views. Okay,

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because at that time I'd read not just Maximums, but

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I read a lot of the Cabbin Doshans like Basil

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and Gregory and Gregory and so yeah, it's like I

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was like, all right, I guess now all the tomistic

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baggage that I kind of had like stuck in my

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head kind of washed away, and I went back to

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just divine revelation scriptures and it was like seeing it

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through new eyes, I guess.

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Speaker 2: And so then you go back to your at that

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point you have to go stuck the Catacumin process all

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over again, or you did read, Yeah, you have to

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start the whole thing I did. And what is that

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process like? Because like we're seeing a postive prophet. I

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guess he's in the process of Catecumanism.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, hopfully.

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Speaker 2: I said that, right, what does that entail? And it's

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a year, which I think is good. I think, like

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give people a year to sort this thing out. What

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was that process?

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Speaker 1: Like pretty flexible depending upon who your priest is, Like

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they will kind of make that decision based on where

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they think you are, So they might do six months

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or they might do three years. So Orthodoxy is pretty selective,

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like they're not it's it's it's not like Baptists or

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anything else. Reading Catholic right, Catholic RCAA is like a

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few months. So no, it's like a I think mine

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was about eight months? Eight months?

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Speaker 2: And are you not allowed to do communion during that part?

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Speaker 1: They're not giving you don't commune, but you are expected

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to attend regularly, And I think it's just kind of

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like is this person serious?

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Speaker 2: You know, so I'm assuming there's some discipleship that's happening

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with the priest and like one on one time and

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reading and stuff like that. How intensive is that part?

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Speaker 1: I guess? I mean it wasn't intensive for me because

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I was used to read theology all the time. I

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think if you are not used to theology, it might

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be a little intensive because you probably have to read

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a couple of books max. You're going to be going

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through at least a year, usually a year of the

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church's liturgical cycle to get used to the feasts, and

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in Orthodoxy, like the liturgy is kind of the Bible

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theology in action. So you're getting Biblical theology through services,

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and you go through most of the scriptures within a

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year or so.

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Speaker 2: In terms of the Sunday morning liturgy, you're covering a

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lot of scriptures.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, and any of the other services like vestpers

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that you can like, they will encourage you to comes

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as many as you can.

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Speaker 2: How many would you say you were coming to as

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you're going through the process of becoming a category.

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Speaker 1: For me, because we lived about an hour from church,

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it was just Sunday stuff, okay. And then part of

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the time I was in Florida, so I was doing

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I was doing another going to a different Orthodox church,

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but doing my catechisa still through my Tennessee priest. Got it.

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Speaker 2: So and this at this time, are you kind of

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finishing up your undergrad are you still doing your.

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Speaker 1: No, by this this is like twenty sixteen, seventeen, I've

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already left academia, Like I quit in twenty thirteen, I think, Okay,

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And so I was already doing like a blog and

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podcast and doing that full time. Yeah, but was received

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in the church.

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Speaker 2: I think in twenty seventeen, officially in twenty seventeen, I think,

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so yeah, yeah, okay. And then so around the same

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time you finish your degree in was a philosophy.

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Speaker 1: Undergrad and Flushing history, and then I started grad school

385
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focusing on psychological warfare and film and how symbolism is

386
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used to propagandize in pop culture. Okay, so I was

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in my grad work on that. I was doing a

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grad thesis on that and how James Bond is used

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in the Cold War for that. So that's what kind

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of got me in this mode of writing a lot

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about film yep. And that's what my blog started out.

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It was just like Hollywood movie symbolism, that was it.

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And then it expanded into other topics and things that

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I was interested in, just because I was like, I

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can't just talk about movies all the time and drive

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me crazy. It's monotonous. So you know, I'd write essays

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about philosophy, and then I write an essay about geopolitical stuff,

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and then eventually that led to a book, and then

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it led to accidentally actually debates, which was not something

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I ever had planned to do. And yeah, it was

401
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all accidental.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So you got two books that are out Esoteric Hollywood,

403
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Esteric Hollywood Part two and then the third ones coming

404
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out this July.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and philosophy books.

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Speaker 2: I got in philosophy books, and you go from writing

407
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about this stuff as an undergrad into on your masters

408
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to really picking apart the symbolism. But from your perspective,

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it sounds like, if I'm tracking correctly, the symbols weren't

410
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just used as propaganda for the Cold War. They sound

411
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like they become more darker in some of these films

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where we're now dealing with full on occult stuff.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: Was there a specific shift that happened in Hollywood where

415
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it went from like we're gonna use James Bond, superhero

416
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America's great, to like, no, we're going to start diving

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in some of this more cult imagery.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I would say after the sixties counterculture revolution, you

419
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have some avant garde filmmakers who were self professed Satanists,

420
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like Kenneth Anger. They were very into Crowley. He's a

421
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famous Skittles avant garde like icon.

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Speaker 2: By the way, I just want to say I love Skittles.

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We're taking that. We usually say OLGTV because all of

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our TVs are OLGTV skittles, brilliant.

425
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Speaker 1: Keep going and anger was like in the circles of

426
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the Rolling Stones and hanging out with like people from

427
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the Church of State Nanton Leave that kind of stuff,

428
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which I know that's not theistic satanism, it's just kind

429
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of atheism with like troll costumes. Yeah, but there are

430
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sides and groups that do take us seriously. Yeah.

431
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Speaker 2: Uh and where they start kind of strolling and then

432
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all of a sudden we had Shane Smith on and

433
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that that was his journey. He's like, oh, just kind

434
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of playing around, being silly, and then it's like witchcraft

435
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and dark dark forces.

436
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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I kind of inadvertently found that interesting through

437
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the grad work, like studying Hollywood and symbolism, and then

438
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I started realizing, well, there's a lot of cults that

439
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are popping up right, Like Hollywood has a lot of cults,

440
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a lot of directors, a lot of A listers. They're

441
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tied into cults, and many of them are working for intelligence,

442
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like they worked for the CIA, they worked for the FBI.

443
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Some of the most famous A listers have been OSS operatives,

444
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FBI informants, and CIO produced. So in Hollywood, yeah, some

445
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of the most famous A listers on record is declassified.

446
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So the third book as old chapter on people like

447
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Sterling Hayden, it was declassified. The A listers who were

448
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immersed in Hollywood are spies, are verified spies for our

449
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for America, for our side for Okay, I was going

450
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to say that was really crazy. Well, the belief was

451
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that a couple of them were agents. So like for

452
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a long time, Marlene Dietrich was suspected of being a

453
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spy for Tiny Mustache Man.

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Speaker 2: And so and so, how famous are these folks? Are

455
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these like Dwayne the Rock?

456
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Speaker 1: Yeah, these are A listers of that time, right, and

457
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:41,440
there's they're verified spies. Well, she was suspected of being

458
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a Tiny Mustache Man spy, and so the FBI and

459
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the US intelligence like investigated her and had to follows

460
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on her. But it turns out she was actually trying

461
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to spy for the OSS, which is the he's predecessor

462
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in America. Interesting, Yeah, Sterling Hayden was a verified OSS

463
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agent operative.

464
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Speaker 2: When you say verified, how verified are we talking? He

465
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actually was like, we can go to the CIA's website.

466
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Speaker 1: And National Archives.

467
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Speaker 2: That's crazy, okay.

468
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Speaker 1: Carry Grant was an informant he spied on because they

469
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thought Errol Flynn was a tony mustache man spy, so

470
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they asked carry Grant to like inform on people. Wow.

471
00:22:21,039 --> 00:22:22,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, Now now when you say spies, is it kind

472
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,200
of like, Hey, you're famous. So you get a knock

473
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,240
on a door from the CIA and when you go

474
00:22:27,279 --> 00:22:29,319
over to do this press tour, we want you to

475
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,039
keep an eye on stuff or they like c I

476
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:35,039
A operatives who were trained.

477
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,960
Speaker 1: Both well, can be both. I think in Carry Grant's case,

478
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:42,000
he was just asked to spy and inform. Jimmy Stewart

479
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,000
Jimmy Stewart, right, the most famous like a lister of

480
00:22:45,039 --> 00:22:47,359
his time. Huh, he actually was, Like he worked for

481
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,559
the FBI. He made FBI propagand the movies. You can

482
00:22:50,599 --> 00:22:53,799
go watch his FBI movies. In fact, Laurel Canyon, which

483
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,279
is a famous movie studio. If you drive up Wonderland

484
00:22:57,279 --> 00:23:00,880
Avenue on the hole and drive you get to the

485
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,880
top and there's a giant aircraft or excuse me, air

486
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,039
force studio that was like the pre eminent studio of

487
00:23:06,079 --> 00:23:08,319
its time. I think I have it covered in the

488
00:23:08,319 --> 00:23:11,839
first chapter of the first book. All of the A

489
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:16,079
listers had Department of Defense badges that gave them access

490
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,920
to this secret studio that the Air Force owned. So

491
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,680
there's a clear connection right there. In fact, Marilyn Monroe

492
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,480
had a badge like a DoD badge. So a lot

493
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:29,039
of these people are actually recruited to also do varying

494
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:29,799
levels of.

495
00:23:29,799 --> 00:23:32,400
Speaker 2: Short work, and so in that it sounds like as

496
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,839
there is the rise of the hippie revolution, a sex revolution,

497
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,119
all this sort of stuff. It goes from hey, we're

498
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,279
just kind of fighting this Cold War, keeping an eye

499
00:23:40,279 --> 00:23:44,960
on our enemies, pushing American propaganda, to now there's this

500
00:23:45,039 --> 00:23:48,799
countercultural and darker stuff and darker stuff is rising up.

501
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,680
Would you say that that was calculated and intentional or

502
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:54,519
would you say that all of a sudden, the people

503
00:23:54,519 --> 00:23:57,519
who are the artists and the creatives are going down

504
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,559
this in their own worldview, and so it starts into

505
00:24:00,599 --> 00:24:01,599
the media.

506
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,200
Speaker 1: A degree of both. You can look at things like

507
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,279
the Esslin Institute, which was pushing kind of the think

508
00:24:07,319 --> 00:24:10,799
tank behind the whole counterculture New age movement of the sixties. Huh,

509
00:24:11,559 --> 00:24:15,359
and Esslin was promoted by very powerful, wealthy people. You

510
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:16,920
can look it up and they've had all the most

511
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,759
famous kind of new ag people go and speak there.

512
00:24:19,799 --> 00:24:24,440
Over the years, Deepak Chopra, Aldus Hostley, they've all promoted

513
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,720
all that stuff from Esslin, which is you know, a

514
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,640
big sur drive up big sir, there's a escellin up there. Ye.

515
00:24:30,839 --> 00:24:32,880
Speaker 2: Deepak Chopra has had like an office out here and

516
00:24:33,559 --> 00:24:35,640
Insinita's I think, yeah, he's he had a pretty big

517
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:36,599
footprint here locally.

518
00:24:36,759 --> 00:24:39,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, So all that stuff was supported from the top down.

519
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,440
But a lot of the people in that counterculture maybe

520
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,359
not the mainstream, but many of them were into that

521
00:24:44,559 --> 00:24:47,799
avant garde like Satanic type stuff. Not so much Levey,

522
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,799
but more so Crowley, who was pretty serious about his Satanism.

523
00:24:50,839 --> 00:24:53,799
And he was a British spy too by the way. Wow, Yeah,

524
00:24:53,839 --> 00:24:57,119
he worked for m I five And Crowley is kind

525
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,839
of the forefather not just of yoga in the West

526
00:25:00,039 --> 00:25:04,839
with Madam Blavatski, but the sexual revolution. So the sixties

527
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,319
counterculture stuff Owes it's ethos actually to alscra Croley and

528
00:25:08,319 --> 00:25:10,240
many of the people in the sixties kind of culture,

529
00:25:10,759 --> 00:25:13,720
like doctor Tim Leary who worked for the CIA. On record,

530
00:25:13,799 --> 00:25:16,480
he called himself the new Alistair Curley because his idea

531
00:25:16,759 --> 00:25:19,960
was we can really revolutionize the culture not just through

532
00:25:20,039 --> 00:25:23,240
drugs but also through sex. So sex and drugs and

533
00:25:23,319 --> 00:25:25,960
so Hollywood played a key role in that in the sixties,

534
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,519
and a lot of the counterculture people coming out of

535
00:25:28,519 --> 00:25:32,759
the Laurel Canyon scene were also directly connected to intelligence.

536
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 2: What was the motive behind, Like why do you think

537
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:40,880
they wanted to create this countercultural or kind of hedonistic,

538
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,440
weird new agy thing driven by sex and all this stuff.

539
00:25:44,519 --> 00:25:47,839
Speaker 1: Drugs and so some of the people who were Fabian

540
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,200
socialist technocrats had already talked about the strategy and this

541
00:25:51,279 --> 00:25:53,839
plan in the nineteen twenties and thirties so Bertrand Russell

542
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:55,920
talked about it. He was very open. He lived in

543
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,440
a like a pan polygual relationship before anyone else did.

544
00:26:00,039 --> 00:26:03,680
Ste Wells was a famousism for like War of the Worlds,

545
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,640
but he also wrote all these mainline geopolitical books like

546
00:26:07,759 --> 00:26:10,640
Open Conspiracy, New World Order. That's from him, it's his book,

547
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,880
and in those books he describes how they would revolutionize

548
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:19,960
Western civilization through counterculture, through sexual revolution to make the

549
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,519
West more amenable to a future of socialist technocracy. So

550
00:26:23,599 --> 00:26:26,079
that's explicitly what's in those books. So they're playing a

551
00:26:26,079 --> 00:26:26,480
long game.

552
00:26:26,599 --> 00:26:29,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're thinking that's the generations ahead.

553
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 1: Fabian model is the slow it's their symbols a turtle

554
00:26:33,759 --> 00:26:35,720
and a wolf in sheep's clothing, So that's a slow

555
00:26:36,599 --> 00:26:37,400
burn model.

556
00:26:38,759 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 2: Isn't there some crossover with some of this and the

557
00:26:45,279 --> 00:26:50,759
postmodernist and the folks who are into critical theory. The

558
00:26:50,799 --> 00:26:54,359
French philosophers that that were also into the PDF stuff,

559
00:26:54,559 --> 00:26:57,920
the pdf file stuff, and they were trying to normalize this,

560
00:26:58,079 --> 00:27:00,319
and for whatever reason, that didn't get normalized, but some

561
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:01,799
of this other weird stuff got normal.

562
00:27:01,799 --> 00:27:03,279
Speaker 1: You got to do it in phases, right, So if

563
00:27:03,319 --> 00:27:05,319
you want to get to that like extreme level, you

564
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,000
kind of you take it in that slow burn mad

565
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,119
like you have one revolution, next revolution, next revolution. Right.

566
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,880
Feminism worked the same way, and you couldn't have the

567
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,279
skittles had you not already had the feminist revolution. Right.

568
00:27:18,039 --> 00:27:20,720
In my second book, the first chapter actually addresses what

569
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,079
you're talking about. I talked about the deconstructionists. You know,

570
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,680
the CIA went and like made alliances with the French

571
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,960
postmodernist deconstructionists. Yeah, I mean, this isn't Surprise or the

572
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,440
culture War. It's called the Congress or cultural freedom. It's

573
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,680
in chapter one, you said the ABA. No, I think

574
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,119
it's the chapter before introduction. Yeah, I think it's in

575
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,200
the introduction. You see.

576
00:27:39,519 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 2: The cool thing is just real quick. The cool thing

577
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:42,920
about this is you have citations for all this, so

578
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:43,839
you're not just like winging it.

579
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,799
Speaker 1: No, there's like three hundred and sixty footnotes of that,

580
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,000
yeah on the first one. I forget how many's in

581
00:27:49,039 --> 00:27:51,920
the second one. But yeah, yeah, that's from the academic background.

582
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:52,720
It's like you had a source of.

583
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:54,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's good, it's good. I mean when I

584
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:55,960
was working on my own book was the same thing.

585
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:57,720
It was like I would have quotes in there and

586
00:27:57,720 --> 00:27:59,680
it would dig up the actual quote. But when I

587
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:01,200
thought the president, I thought who said it?

588
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 1: You know?

589
00:28:01,759 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 2: So okay, So they're rolling it out in phases. They

590
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,000
can't just jump all the way into kids kids skittles.

591
00:28:09,079 --> 00:28:11,920
They have to be a bit more careful and then

592
00:28:12,039 --> 00:28:13,880
over time, why do you think the kids skittles things

593
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,240
never caught on? Like or is it catching on with

594
00:28:16,319 --> 00:28:19,240
some of this transformer stuff today it is catching on.

595
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:21,519
Speaker 1: But they had to do it like in the phasees.

596
00:28:22,039 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 2: So today like the the the would you connect it

597
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:30,720
to now kids don't have to give consent, who are

598
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,240
incapably given consent for anything else, but are able to

599
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,400
make life changing things happened to their body with drugs

600
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,279
and stuff that like this kind of coming out as bad.

601
00:28:39,359 --> 00:28:42,240
Would you say that that is now the let's try

602
00:28:42,279 --> 00:28:45,359
and alleviate consent from children because they can make like

603
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:46,400
would you connect those two?

604
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,279
Speaker 1: Does that make away say? It's the culmination of what

605
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,319
these revolutionaries wrote about. For example, Eldus Huxley wrote not

606
00:28:53,359 --> 00:28:56,400
just Brave New World, but he wrote Brave New World Revisited,

607
00:28:57,039 --> 00:29:00,720
And in the introduction he talks about this book is

608
00:29:00,759 --> 00:29:04,799
not strictly speaking fiction, This is what the technocratic lead

609
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:06,960
actually have planned for the future. And if you go

610
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:08,640
back and rebrave New World, which we just did a

611
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,960
book club on this a few months ago with my buddy.

612
00:29:12,039 --> 00:29:15,720
Quite frankly, I read it ten years ago. We reread

613
00:29:15,759 --> 00:29:18,720
it last year, and I never even noticed. The second

614
00:29:18,799 --> 00:29:23,519
chapter is all about pedo stuff. The World Socialist Controller

615
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:30,559
mandates pedo stuff for the dystopia. Wow, yeah, that's the

616
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:32,599
dark second chapter. It gets really dark. I won't say

617
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,359
what else goes on, but he actually calls himself Christ

618
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,400
has let the children come into me in the context

619
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:44,160
of peedos, it's gross, but Huxley's telling you that the

620
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,599
sexual revolution is what prepares the way for the brave

621
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:47,400
new world.

622
00:29:47,559 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 2: Do you think that there's been some slow down with

623
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,920
some of this stuff now that there seems to be

624
00:29:53,119 --> 00:29:57,079
a massive cultural pushback, specifically against the transform ideology.

625
00:29:57,559 --> 00:29:59,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, so all of that is spearheaded out of Tavistock.

626
00:30:00,119 --> 00:30:02,599
Second suit in the UK is kind of the spearhead

627
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,519
of They were behind mk ultra originally, and Huxley played

628
00:30:06,519 --> 00:30:10,720
a role in that because he was actually going torgy

629
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:15,319
events with Crowley. They partied together, and Croley wrote a

630
00:30:15,319 --> 00:30:18,079
book called Drug Diaries, And I did an interview with

631
00:30:18,279 --> 00:30:21,359
doctor Richard Spence, who's a professor kind of a historian

632
00:30:21,559 --> 00:30:23,279
of this stuff, and he wrote a book on Crowley

633
00:30:24,119 --> 00:30:26,000
and he's the one that demonstrated that Crowley was a

634
00:30:26,039 --> 00:30:29,599
British intelligence operative and that's how he got linked up

635
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,440
with Huxley, who was part of this inner click of

636
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:36,279
Fabian socialist eleites. Right. So when Huxley saw that Croley

637
00:30:36,319 --> 00:30:38,599
had this drug diary, he was like, this might actually

638
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,799
be an interesting study at a like a government level.

639
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,519
So that became part of Tavistock that eventually becomes mkulture

640
00:30:47,839 --> 00:30:50,079
in the US. It's the same program, but it's just

641
00:30:50,079 --> 00:30:54,559
different continents. And that led to the idea that you

642
00:30:54,559 --> 00:30:56,920
could engineer and change the human being, not just in

643
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,559
his mind, but eventually it becomes a change of the

644
00:30:59,759 --> 00:31:02,880
entire physiognomy in the biology of a person. So I

645
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,319
actually dug up. In the first book, there's a chapter

646
00:31:05,319 --> 00:31:09,240
where I talk about papers that were written by people

647
00:31:09,279 --> 00:31:12,880
like doctor Holger Heyden. He was a famous scientist who

648
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:14,920
was invited to nineteen sixty nine min Control conference in

649
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,440
San Francisco, the rock Fellers put on, and it was

650
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:23,960
sponsored by CIA's Voice of America, and his papers were

651
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:28,960
about drugs and chemicals actually changing gender in men and

652
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,640
women in the future. SEC we can use this nineteen

653
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,480
sixty nine. Yeah, and I signed doctor Holger Heiden's papers.

654
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,279
You can still find him on Google scholar if that

655
00:31:37,319 --> 00:31:39,559
still exists. But when I was writing the book, I

656
00:31:39,599 --> 00:31:41,839
was like looking up Google scholar and finding all this

657
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,160
stuff and so and so. This stuff then starts kind

658
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,599
of seeping into the media. There's a white paper written

659
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:49,599
in I forget the exact date. Maybe in this I

660
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,759
think in this early seventies. It's called Changing Images of Man,

661
00:31:52,799 --> 00:31:55,759
and it's put up by Stanford Research Institute, and that's

662
00:31:55,799 --> 00:31:58,319
one of the key papers where they talked about re

663
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,880
engineering all the Western civilsa's thoughts not just about the environment,

664
00:32:03,079 --> 00:32:05,240
which is a lot of the green agenda stuff, but

665
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,160
also man himself. And so they begin to talk about

666
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,559
how we need to convince man that man is the problem. Gee,

667
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:14,599
and that's what leads to a lot of this sort

668
00:32:14,599 --> 00:32:16,880
of depopulation, anti natalist type stuff.

669
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 2: Stuff is dark, man.

670
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,559
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just giving you the sources.

671
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,799
Speaker 2: I'm just okay, So let me ask you this. Ver

672
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,240
one does it? I sashally this offline, But like, does

673
00:32:30,279 --> 00:32:32,839
watching films now suck for you because you're you're looking

674
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,839
at this through like this kind of critical lens and

675
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,880
connecting the symbols, Like are you able just enjoy films?

676
00:32:39,319 --> 00:32:41,599
Speaker 1: I yeah, because like a lot of this I was

677
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,799
doing like ten fifteen years ago, when I was really

678
00:32:44,359 --> 00:32:48,599
watching movies from that kind of advantage point, huh, which

679
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:50,720
I mean I still do to a degree, but like

680
00:32:50,839 --> 00:32:53,759
most movies suck nowadays. Anyways, Yeah, there's not that good.

681
00:32:53,839 --> 00:32:55,480
But I mean when I go back and watch an

682
00:32:55,480 --> 00:33:02,200
eighties movie. I'm not like trying to pick it apart necessarily, ok, So.

683
00:33:00,279 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 2: So let me ask you a question. So then, in

684
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,559
this way, like I think that there's something about the

685
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:09,799
human story that will seep out in different aspects with

686
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:15,279
regards to media, where people can infuse things unknowingly like

687
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,319
flawed broken people can infuse things unknowingly that still point

688
00:33:18,359 --> 00:33:21,799
to something transcendent and potentially godly absolutely right, So, like

689
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,440
I had this conversation recently, I'm Racey coming to America, Right,

690
00:33:26,559 --> 00:33:30,200
So the prince doesn't want an arrange marriage, he doesn't

691
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,799
want someone to marry them for him. He wants to

692
00:33:33,799 --> 00:33:36,480
come as a as a regular person. So he comes

693
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,599
and granted the movie as you know, Fortication all kinds

694
00:33:39,599 --> 00:33:44,039
of sexual stuff, and he meets a queen. He wants

695
00:33:44,079 --> 00:33:45,720
to find his queen in America, so he goes to

696
00:33:45,759 --> 00:33:48,519
Queen's ironically enough, and he wants a woman to love

697
00:33:48,599 --> 00:33:54,559
him for him while secretly having this entire royal powerful identity. Right,

698
00:33:54,599 --> 00:33:56,039
And so like I see something like that, I kind

699
00:33:56,039 --> 00:33:59,400
of parallel it to the story of Jesus. Like Jesus comes,

700
00:34:00,519 --> 00:34:05,119
doesn't come as the messiah warrior you know, to establish

701
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,480
a political kingdom. He comes as a lowly servant and

702
00:34:08,679 --> 00:34:11,639
wants people to love him for him instead of what

703
00:34:11,679 --> 00:34:13,639
they can get from him, the power they can get

704
00:34:13,679 --> 00:34:16,719
from him. And so I'm not saying that Eddie Murphy

705
00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:20,840
is a Christian writing a Christian story, but I see

706
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,360
parts of the Christian story in a lot of media

707
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,320
as well. How do you how would you like process that?

708
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:30,119
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, I mean my books are not all negative. Like,

709
00:34:30,159 --> 00:34:32,199
there's plenty of good messages. There's plenty of good film,

710
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,440
you know, film analyzes that we do, and like you said,

711
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,199
like even stories of just sort of heroic virtue or

712
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:43,960
natural virtues, those those exist yeah, outside the Church, outside Christianity,

713
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:45,920
and those are those those messages are fine. I think

714
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:52,079
Christianity is always historically, when it encounters positives in cultures

715
00:34:52,119 --> 00:34:56,599
outside of the Church, you elevate the positives, the virtues

716
00:34:56,639 --> 00:34:59,480
that are there that are natural, right, and then you

717
00:34:59,559 --> 00:35:02,480
just try to eat out the things that are demonic

718
00:35:02,639 --> 00:35:06,400
or unnatural. So there's a healthy form of inculturation, as

719
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:11,360
it's called in Christian missionary work. Historically, a lot of

720
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,239
Orthodox missionaries like Saint Herman of Alaska have the same

721
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:16,920
attitude where anything that you would find in the Inuit

722
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,280
culture that was good, you can elevate that and you

723
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,519
just get rid of the idoltysic stuff. Yeah.

724
00:35:22,599 --> 00:35:29,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, in our framework, maybe we would use language like reject, receive, redeem, right.

725
00:35:29,559 --> 00:35:31,360
So there's certain things within culture like we just have

726
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,840
to reject, like you can't be a stripper for Jesus,

727
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:35,360
you can't be a meth head for Jesus, can't be

728
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:37,599
a pimp for Jesus. Right, But then there's other aspects

729
00:35:37,599 --> 00:35:39,840
where we can redeem. Genre like hip hop.

730
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 1: Right, although if you go to my Only Fans you

731
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:42,639
can see that I can pull it off.

732
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 2: Oh god, are you one of those guys that got

733
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:48,239
the only fans before they became explicit?

734
00:35:48,639 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 1: It's just me and my yoga pants. Yeah, exactly, it's

735
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:52,599
just rated. It's just rated PG thirteen.

736
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 2: So but yeah, like a like a genre like hip

737
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:57,360
hop or death metal or whatever, you can take that,

738
00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:59,239
you can redeem it. You can use it for God's glory.

739
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,480
And then there's other aspects of culture or we can

740
00:36:01,559 --> 00:36:04,000
just receive. We can receive aspects of culture that are

741
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,400
good stories or good food or good right, like those

742
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,639
things that aren't necessarily attached to anything of the occult.

743
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 1: Or Mond Devine. Right, Yeah, exactly, Yeah, that's awesome.

744
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,159
Speaker 2: Okay, personal question, I don't I didn't see you talk

745
00:36:16,159 --> 00:36:18,159
about Star Wars any of these. I just glanced at

746
00:36:18,199 --> 00:36:22,239
the chapters. Have you went through all the Star Wars films?

747
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,320
Speaker 1: We did a podcast on that some years ago. Okay,

748
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:30,280
I kind of dissected it from an esotary perspective, but no,

749
00:36:30,519 --> 00:36:32,599
that's like the one. That's the one you haven't big one.

750
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,119
Speaker 2: Star Wars is a mixed bag man, because there's parts

751
00:36:35,119 --> 00:36:36,800
of Star Wars that are like, oh, this is full

752
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,719
on like the fourso Eastern philosophy. But then I was

753
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,519
watching episode nine and the cool thing me and my

754
00:36:43,519 --> 00:36:45,639
son watch it, and you saw. I got the text

755
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:47,480
during dinner last night and I was like, he wants

756
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:49,199
me to come home finished episode because we started it

757
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:53,960
on May fourth, sorry, episode three, and there's aspects of

758
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:55,559
it that we get to discuss and be like, hey,

759
00:36:55,599 --> 00:36:56,960
this is not the way God is, this is not

760
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,679
the way Jesus is. Like God is a personal god,

761
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,199
He's not this force. Right though, there is a good

762
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,880
and a bad right, and there is a realm that

763
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,320
we don't see anyway, I was watching episode three with

764
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,400
him and the moment where I don't know if you

765
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:16,920
remember this, but where Anakin goes to the Dark Side,

766
00:37:17,119 --> 00:37:20,639
the Sith that's presenting to him the Dark Side says,

767
00:37:21,039 --> 00:37:25,400
the Jedi aren't telling you the full story, and the

768
00:37:25,519 --> 00:37:29,559
Jedi they're wrapped up in their dogma, and their dogma

769
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:35,920
doesn't allow them to fully explore how powerful the Force is. Right,

770
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,840
And so because Anakin wants to save his love from death,

771
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,599
he keeps getting these premonitions that she's gonna die, and

772
00:37:42,639 --> 00:37:46,400
so he wants to save her. And the appeal is

773
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:51,119
that the Jedi and the light is dogmatic and they're

774
00:37:51,159 --> 00:37:55,440
bad and they're too archaic and they're understanding and the

775
00:37:55,559 --> 00:38:01,320
dark Side it's more nuanced. Then, it's more you know, enlightened,

776
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,440
and it doesn't have hardcore binaries, right, and there's more

777
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:06,000
power over it.

778
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,760
Speaker 1: It's kind of what Satan is saying in the Garden, right,

779
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,119
He's like, you know, did God really say that? You

780
00:38:11,159 --> 00:38:12,400
know what I mean? Yeah?

781
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 2: So I was watching that and then I was thinking

782
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:15,599
about our conversation. I was like, oh, man, I wonder

783
00:38:15,639 --> 00:38:17,280
what j Woul think about this, because it's it's it's

784
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,440
it is. I instantly thought of the garden. I instantly

785
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,960
thought about that lie, and then the the perversion to

786
00:38:23,199 --> 00:38:26,199
try and escape death, which only Jesus did, and then

787
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:27,480
offers us in the resurrection.

788
00:38:28,079 --> 00:38:32,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't need to ask about Star Wars. You

789
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:34,559
don't need to. And so that's the one thing I

790
00:38:34,559 --> 00:38:39,360
didn't analyze. I'm just sorrying four part four of your

791
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,199
book Star Wars. It could be if we do a

792
00:38:42,199 --> 00:38:45,960
part four. Yeah, I was gonna start doing some Billy

793
00:38:46,079 --> 00:38:51,679
Williams impressions here in a minute. Hello, what have we anyway?

794
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:56,800
Speaker 2: So so so let's talk about the latest one, and

795
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:58,960
you giant, you jumped into one of my favorite movies,

796
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:05,199
which is Incemption. And in your theory, Inception is pushing

797
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:09,800
kind of like a gnosticism and Cobb is always in

798
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,559
his dream. There's theories that he ends up waking up

799
00:39:12,559 --> 00:39:16,079
at the end, and then there's theories that he doesn't

800
00:39:16,119 --> 00:39:19,239
wake up that meaning the end, he's still in his dream.

801
00:39:19,519 --> 00:39:22,320
Your assessment of it is that there's a connection to

802
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:26,800
gnosticism and that the entire thing is all one big dream.

803
00:39:27,039 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 1: Right, So a couple of reasons why I took that

804
00:39:30,079 --> 00:39:33,400
route was I remember when I wrote that analysis, I

805
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,559
was reading a book on Hollywood and surrealism, and a

806
00:39:36,599 --> 00:39:39,400
lot of film directors are influenced by surrealism, like David Lynch,

807
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:45,880
and the idea surrealism is that we have no delineator

808
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,599
between the sleeping state and the waking state. There's no

809
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:52,559
clear line to know, and so we may actually always

810
00:39:52,559 --> 00:39:54,039
be in a dream state. I don't believe that, but

811
00:39:54,039 --> 00:39:56,320
I'm saying that's what surrealists believe. And a lot of

812
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,239
the directors in the forties and fifties, even some of

813
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:03,679
the pretty notorious and famous ones who were even connected

814
00:40:03,679 --> 00:40:07,360
to the Black Dahlia case, which was a famous ritual

815
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,320
murder case of Elizabeth Short in Hollywood. It's one of

816
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,719
the earliest connections of Hollywood to the occult that was

817
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,840
kind of in mainstream news. Some of those directors were

818
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,199
really into that, and so there's kind of been a

819
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:23,719
trend in some big level Hollywood people to push this idea.

820
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:28,480
And I think that you could argue that Christopher Nolan

821
00:40:28,519 --> 00:40:31,920
and his brother are influenced very much by that, and

822
00:40:32,039 --> 00:40:37,239
Carl Young definitely when Nolan does films, he'll even end

823
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,039
the screenplay reference Carl Young and so we get that,

824
00:40:40,159 --> 00:40:43,280
and he's definitely a gnostic. Like I just read Young's

825
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:45,800
Archetypes of Collective Unconscious. We did a couple of podcasts

826
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:47,119
on that book. He's the guy.

827
00:40:48,039 --> 00:40:50,079
Speaker 2: Is he the guy who said that he knows God exists?

828
00:40:50,079 --> 00:40:51,519
And then kind of have to walk it back when

829
00:40:51,559 --> 00:40:54,360
we think about the same guy or that you Carljung

830
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:58,280
is the gnostic cycling. He's the father of psychoanalysis, right,

831
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,559
So he was freud student and he disagree with Freud

832
00:41:01,559 --> 00:41:03,960
because he thought Freud was too sexual, like it was

833
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,599
everything was just instinctual based drives. And Young in the

834
00:41:07,639 --> 00:41:12,840
direction of reviving neoplatonism and gnosticism by his own admission,

835
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:14,920
like he says, I'm a gnostic. Does any of this

836
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,079
have any crossover with idealism and this idea that like

837
00:41:18,199 --> 00:41:19,679
everything is just our ideas?

838
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:20,599
Speaker 1: Yeah?

839
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 2: Where what is the Oh there's a guy that's super

840
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:26,760
popular about it. He was on Jonathan Pago's podcast, and

841
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:31,639
his whole metaphor is that the plane is the controllers

842
00:41:31,679 --> 00:41:37,559
on the plane aren't really indicative of anything and deers yeah, yeah,

843
00:41:37,599 --> 00:41:40,719
And so it's like this weird kind of idealistic thing

844
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,559
of how you're perceiving life. And you're saying this, you're

845
00:41:43,559 --> 00:41:46,280
connecting this to gnosticism, which is which is interesting.

846
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:50,159
Speaker 1: I mean, so again in archetypes, the collective unconscious, Carl

847
00:41:50,199 --> 00:41:53,119
Jung says, I believe and I want to revive plato

848
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,239
idealism and narcissism. So that's his worldview.

849
00:41:58,559 --> 00:41:59,519
Speaker 2: Why is this dangerous?

850
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:05,119
Speaker 1: Well for many reasons. I mean the earliest opponents of Christianity,

851
00:42:05,159 --> 00:42:07,639
even in Paul's time when he writes to Timbothy, he says,

852
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:11,039
beware of those who claim to have knowledge or the noses.

853
00:42:11,519 --> 00:42:14,159
So Paul was warning right early on. And then in

854
00:42:14,199 --> 00:42:16,559
the second third century we have Iran Aus when he

855
00:42:16,599 --> 00:42:19,480
wrote against Heresies in one eighty. The first three hundred

856
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:21,719
pages of that book is him just detailing like all

857
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:26,440
the insane gnostic sects that existed at that in one eighty,

858
00:42:26,599 --> 00:42:29,760
right in the Roman Empire. So that's our earliest source

859
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:31,920
for the main opponents of Christianity in the first two

860
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:33,519
centuries were the Gnostics.

861
00:42:33,119 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 2: And they go on to influence the Islamic view of

862
00:42:36,679 --> 00:42:40,159
Jesus right like the source material that Muhammad would have

863
00:42:40,159 --> 00:42:41,920
had access to in a region they say would have

864
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:43,199
been more gnostic accounts.

865
00:42:43,199 --> 00:42:45,199
Speaker 1: It's funny you said that, because this morning I woke

866
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:46,719
I don't know why I woke up thinking about this.

867
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:48,920
I was thinking about Dawcatism, which is the idea that

868
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,519
Jesus didn't really down on the cross, didn't really have

869
00:42:51,519 --> 00:42:55,199
a human nature. And the Quran says all Lah tricked

870
00:42:55,239 --> 00:43:00,719
everybody into thinking disappeared. Yeah, so that's a form of Dacatism.

871
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:04,199
And I was reading a couple of years ago when

872
00:43:04,199 --> 00:43:07,599
I was debating all these Muslims, the Oxford Handbook to

873
00:43:08,199 --> 00:43:16,719
Islam admits that these Arianism, Gnoscissism, and Nestorianism influenced Mohammed,

874
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,639
which is interesting because that vindicates Saint John Damascus, who,

875
00:43:20,679 --> 00:43:22,800
writing in the seventh century, was one of the first

876
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:28,639
to say these new rising Islamic believers are influenced by

877
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:32,639
Arianism and Astorianism. So modern scholarship has basically vindicated Saint

878
00:43:32,679 --> 00:43:37,000
John Demascus's original analysis of this rising heresy of Islam.

879
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 2: Interesting.

880
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is NaSTA. Yeah, I mean not totally, but

881
00:43:40,039 --> 00:43:40,679
elements of it.

882
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:44,800
Speaker 2: And so from you know, Christopher Nolan, I think as

883
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,119
a Catholic or went to Catholic school or something to

884
00:43:47,159 --> 00:43:50,400
that degree, you feel like this indirectly had a bigger

885
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,639
driver and a bigger influence on him, specifically with inception

886
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:56,519
than his own Catholic herodsage in his own background.

887
00:43:56,599 --> 00:43:59,119
Speaker 1: Well, I think his brother does a lot of the writing.

888
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:05,880
So they call it together, and like in Batman begins

889
00:44:07,079 --> 00:44:10,840
pretty sure, I'm going for a memory you exp Yeah,

890
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:16,559
you have Scarecrow basically reciting his quote Union perspective. So

891
00:44:16,639 --> 00:44:19,039
one of the villains is literally saying, like, have you

892
00:44:19,039 --> 00:44:21,079
not read Carl Jung? Let me tell you about the

893
00:44:21,119 --> 00:44:23,920
archetypes of collective unconscious, and then he talks about like

894
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:27,280
the Shaft the shadow archetype and references I think himself

895
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:31,079
as the shadow archetype. And in Batman Joker, that's the

896
00:44:31,119 --> 00:44:33,360
same idea here is that you know, when Joker's talking

897
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,239
to Batman, he's like, I'm the other side of you,

898
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:38,280
You're me, We're you know, we're the same, We're flip

899
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:40,519
side of the same coin, right, And the Union idea

900
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:44,039
is that you don't fight the vices and the demonic,

901
00:44:44,119 --> 00:44:48,159
you integrate the dark side into you. And the one

902
00:44:48,159 --> 00:44:50,480
of the worst things that Young wrote was an essay

903
00:44:50,559 --> 00:44:53,679
called aon ai o n I think it's a whole

904
00:44:53,679 --> 00:44:56,000
book but I only have a like a five page

905
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:57,880
section of it which is the most relevant, and it's

906
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:02,559
called Antichrist, right, And in that anti it's that section

907
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:06,920
is is arguing that Jesus and Antichrist are flip sides

908
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,480
of the same coin. So all of us have within

909
00:45:09,599 --> 00:45:13,360
us Jesus side and an Antichrist side, and you've got

910
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:18,079
to integrate the two together. That's Jungian psychoanalysis. So it's

911
00:45:18,119 --> 00:45:21,199
all balanced. Anything about the shadow self, right, that's what

912
00:45:21,199 --> 00:45:23,920
that's what the shadow self, he says. Antichrist is a

913
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:29,079
shadow self to Christ, and they're they're both dialectical necessities

914
00:45:29,079 --> 00:45:31,039
of the other. So to have good, you gotta have evil.

915
00:45:31,039 --> 00:45:33,239
To have evil have good, which is all a Coult

916
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:40,159
philosophy basically anyway. So that does definitely influence the ethos

917
00:45:40,199 --> 00:45:45,880
of the way that both Nolan's approach film. For example,

918
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:48,239
if you watch West World, I think in part two

919
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:49,159
of the Annalysis the.

920
00:45:49,079 --> 00:45:52,599
Speaker 2: West West West World was dark man, it was, and

921
00:45:52,639 --> 00:45:53,599
it was super dark.

922
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:56,039
Speaker 1: It is and it's gnostic, and I covered that in

923
00:45:56,039 --> 00:45:59,320
there because I think Jonathan no One wrote West World,

924
00:45:59,599 --> 00:46:03,840
and so uh Tenant has some gnostic esotery themes and

925
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:06,840
it is very confusing to completely the way they are. Yeah,

926
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:10,519
it's weird, man. So so this this this obsession with gnoscissism, Like,

927
00:46:11,159 --> 00:46:13,480
by the way, all Hollywood has this obsession, and there

928
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:17,760
have been directors talking about most directors are pretty obsessed

929
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:21,840
with union archetypes gnostissism. So it's like dominates Hollywood.

930
00:46:22,119 --> 00:46:24,199
Speaker 2: But there's a hedonism in Hollywood though that like is

931
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:26,800
after pleasure, right, so so so it's interesting that like

932
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:31,840
gnarscissism elevates the spirit world and the enlightenment and more

933
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:36,840
information while also wanting to experience more pleasure in the

934
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:41,800
material physical reality. Like it's such a perversion of Yeah,

935
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:42,519
it doesn't make any sense.

936
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 1: And I mean, but it didn't have to make sense,

937
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:46,199
right because I mean all of these sort of unbelieving

938
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,039
world views and philosophies are going to have these kind

939
00:46:49,079 --> 00:46:52,559
of contradictions and tensions and they're not going to be coherent. Yeah,

940
00:46:52,599 --> 00:46:56,519
and even Aernais mentions, like there's so many different gnostic groups.

941
00:46:56,599 --> 00:46:59,400
Some of them were like into full on hedonism. Some

942
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:01,639
of them are into like you know, basically ram and

943
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:03,719
Yogi type stuff where you just roll in poop and

944
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:06,559
you don't eat for a year. You know. So, Uh,

945
00:47:06,559 --> 00:47:09,719
there's two extremes of gnostics, and I don't I don't think.

946
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:14,440
I think the whole point is that you're accepting contradictions,

947
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:19,119
you're accepting things that don't make sense in unionism and gnosticism.

948
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,079
Speaker 2: Well, it's such a perversion to the to the incarnation

949
00:47:22,199 --> 00:47:23,440
of right because.

950
00:47:24,199 --> 00:47:26,480
Speaker 1: Jesus takes on matter. Yeah, he takes on matter. They're

951
00:47:26,519 --> 00:47:27,280
saying matter is bad.

952
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, fully god fully man. Uh, it takes on matter,

953
00:47:32,079 --> 00:47:37,199
can experience temptation, yet overcomes it. Right creates a pathway

954
00:47:37,199 --> 00:47:40,760
for reconciliation for people, and it's such a I think

955
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:46,079
gnosissism is such a nasty heresy because it's so appealing

956
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:49,519
and it definitely speaks to that pride aspect that people

957
00:47:49,559 --> 00:47:54,280
want of knowing more and having more information and having

958
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:57,079
the right information and having all these things that it's

959
00:47:57,119 --> 00:47:59,480
interesting that you're you're you've connected it so well to

960
00:47:59,519 --> 00:48:00,960
what's happening in Hollywood.

961
00:48:01,079 --> 00:48:03,599
Speaker 1: I think it was the director. Have you ever seen

962
00:48:03,679 --> 00:48:06,360
Dark City? I think that's sounds familiar. Yeah, it's It's

963
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:11,280
got rufus Sewell and Jennifer Connolly in it. It's a

964
00:48:11,599 --> 00:48:16,119
nineties pre matrix Matrix type of movie. Okay, it's a

965
00:48:16,119 --> 00:48:18,239
pretty good movie. But the director, I think his name

966
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:21,800
is Richard Iode and he was interviewed some years back.

967
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:23,559
I think I put it in the Third Book, but

968
00:48:23,639 --> 00:48:25,920
he said something to the fact of like, if you

969
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,480
want to understand Hollywood, just look at Nacissism, like the

970
00:48:28,519 --> 00:48:32,079
directors and the little ethos is like, that's the governing ideology.

971
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 2: Interesting, okay, so tell me this. And I know you

972
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:37,920
you're Eastern Orthodox and you don't write the aligned with

973
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:41,320
what we do. But when you see stuff like The Chosen,

974
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:42,800
which I'm sure you could, you can have all kinds

975
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,159
of issues with The Chosen House of David. These are

976
00:48:45,199 --> 00:48:47,760
movies that are not movie series that are now being

977
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:53,559
made by Dallas Jenkins a John Irwin. Amazon is looking

978
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:57,079
at the uptick in Bible sales and they're seeing that.

979
00:48:57,199 --> 00:48:59,000
You know, I think last year was a record breaking

980
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:03,000
fourteen million Bible sold, many of them to new believers.

981
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:07,119
So Amazon is tracking this and in Amazon Studios is

982
00:49:07,159 --> 00:49:10,639
now getting behind these productions and throwing hundreds of millions

983
00:49:10,679 --> 00:49:15,000
of dollars into Christian stories. Right, does that give you

984
00:49:15,039 --> 00:49:18,559
any glimmer of hope in terms of Hollywood shifting because

985
00:49:18,559 --> 00:49:21,519
you also believe that Hollywood's dead, right, but there seems

986
00:49:21,519 --> 00:49:23,639
to be this this shift happening in terms of the

987
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:27,039
media in film, and then i'd also argue in music

988
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:29,320
is moving away from a lot of this stuff you're

989
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:30,199
exposing in your book.

990
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I can appreciate that and give props

991
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,039
to it. I think Mel Gibson really kind of pioneered

992
00:49:36,079 --> 00:49:39,360
this with the passion and showing that you can make,

993
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:43,000
you know, movies like the way Hollywood used to make

994
00:49:43,079 --> 00:49:46,079
Ten Commandments Been Her which are kind of Christian movies, right,

995
00:49:47,119 --> 00:49:49,679
you can go back to that and be very successful.

996
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,360
And so that kind of shows that maybe even the

997
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:56,760
ethos of Hollywood is not dominated by the money and

998
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,199
the numbers, like why would you keep making things or

999
00:49:59,199 --> 00:50:02,239
even big companies like Disney that that don't do well

1000
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:07,119
to push the woke kind of agenda. So I think

1001
00:50:07,119 --> 00:50:09,320
that demonstrates that it's not just about money, it's actually

1002
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:13,039
an agenda. And yeah, I think there's a lot of positive,

1003
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,599
you know, Christian films being made, Christian companies, a lot

1004
00:50:16,599 --> 00:50:20,119
of independent films that are wholesome and coming out, and yeah,

1005
00:50:20,119 --> 00:50:22,159
I think we could have seen that that that trend

1006
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:24,920
was coming. I mean a lot of the I mean

1007
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:29,880
I'm not a huge fan of like the Christian streaming

1008
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:33,800
platform movies and stuff, but I think they're an indicator

1009
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:34,920
of the culture shifting.

1010
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:36,440
Speaker 2: Okay, that's good.

1011
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I'm not opposed to Christian films. I'm

1012
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:41,840
just saying, like some of their corny, like pure flicks,

1013
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:42,599
corny stuff.

1014
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:45,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, well there's one what is the one that would

1015
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:47,400
just take out all the profanity and all the sketchy scenes.

1016
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:49,360
It's like an in It's like a it's like a

1017
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:51,920
browser extinction. I can't remember what is it?

1018
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:53,519
Speaker 1: A vid angel? Yeah, d Angel?

1019
00:50:53,559 --> 00:50:55,519
Speaker 2: And the pure Flix is an actual like streaming platform,

1020
00:50:55,639 --> 00:50:58,920
right that I saw integrated I think in Amazon, Like

1021
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:00,960
I was on Amazon and that always have pure flicks

1022
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:02,000
in there. I don't know if it's an add on

1023
00:51:02,119 --> 00:51:04,400
or not. So it's like that's interesting. And then again

1024
00:51:04,519 --> 00:51:07,920
like knowing that they're i mean, the Amazon is spending

1025
00:51:08,039 --> 00:51:10,840
hundreds of millions of dollars on Christian media right now.

1026
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:12,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, we watched the David the King, David, what did

1027
00:51:12,599 --> 00:51:13,960
you think of that? I enjoyed it.

1028
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 2: It's good, right, I thought it was great.

1029
00:51:15,679 --> 00:51:18,360
Speaker 1: I've not seen chosen, but I don't. Yeah, I mean,

1030
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:20,079
I don't know much about it other than that everybody

1031
00:51:20,079 --> 00:51:20,719
talks about it.

1032
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:23,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think and both of those Bible

1033
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:26,480
shows are going to take creative license to fill in

1034
00:51:26,679 --> 00:51:29,119
the stories. And some people have an issue with that.

1035
00:51:29,159 --> 00:51:31,039
Other people don't have an issue with that, you know.

1036
00:51:31,079 --> 00:51:33,159
So if they're like David, you saw David, Like there's

1037
00:51:33,159 --> 00:51:36,440
this entire backstory of David and the daughter and all

1038
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:38,960
this stuff, and it's like, well, where's that in the Bible?

1039
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,119
But it's like the meat of the story is the same.

1040
00:51:41,159 --> 00:51:43,320
But then there's other or like David when he goes

1041
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:45,000
after did you finish it? I don't want to spoil

1042
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:46,800
it for you? Okay, So David when he goes after Goliath,

1043
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:50,599
Goliath throws a spear and he makes contact. It's like, well,

1044
00:51:50,599 --> 00:51:52,960
that's not in the scriptures. It's like, well, but is

1045
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,280
it probable? And does it create a great sequence? You

1046
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:57,000
know that sort of stuff. So I think people have

1047
00:51:57,079 --> 00:51:59,079
issue with the not the I wouldn't say that have

1048
00:51:59,119 --> 00:52:01,000
issue with the theology. You have it as much as

1049
00:52:01,079 --> 00:52:05,280
the There has to be a fillain of the story

1050
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:08,400
to create character development and all this backstory yeah.

1051
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:10,639
Speaker 1: I mean for a movie, you would have to have that. Yeah,

1052
00:52:10,679 --> 00:52:12,159
I don't see a huge problem with that, as long

1053
00:52:12,159 --> 00:52:14,800
as you're not introducing something heresy. Yeah, like, yeah, we're

1054
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:16,320
going to add the part where the aliens come down

1055
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:19,039
to David. Right, I'm for sure that didn't happen.

1056
00:52:19,119 --> 00:52:20,360
Speaker 2: Give them the thing, you know, I think I think

1057
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:23,559
it was they go deep into David's backstory and David's

1058
00:52:23,559 --> 00:52:24,760
mom and this whole thing.

1059
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:27,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was early on. I remember that. Yeah, Yeah, I.

1060
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:29,159
Speaker 2: Thought it was. I thought it was a great show.

1061
00:52:29,159 --> 00:52:31,840
I think I thought House of David is like the

1062
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:35,159
show that I want as a dude, where it's violent,

1063
00:52:35,679 --> 00:52:38,199
but it's like, you know, it's sentimental, it has a

1064
00:52:38,199 --> 00:52:40,840
great story. It kind of checks all those boxes for

1065
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:42,400
me in terms of a series that I enjoyed.

1066
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:46,159
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I think Christianity has been in the

1067
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:50,039
last few hundred years in the West in general, and

1068
00:52:50,079 --> 00:52:52,280
this is even in the realm of orthodox you like,

1069
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:58,119
people have been very soul on pacifism and not being

1070
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:01,679
you know, masculine and not having self defense, you know,

1071
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:04,559
these kinds of attitudes that I mean, well, King David

1072
00:53:05,039 --> 00:53:06,719
should be a model, like you know what I mean.

1073
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:11,800
Like there are biblical archetypes for different types of people,

1074
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:15,440
you know what I mean. So if you're a father

1075
00:53:15,519 --> 00:53:17,880
and you have a household, that you want an archetype

1076
00:53:18,079 --> 00:53:20,039
of that kind of a warrior to look up to.

1077
00:53:20,639 --> 00:53:22,519
And even in the history of Christianity, I mean, you

1078
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:26,880
have plenty of Christian kings who live virtuous lives, very

1079
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:30,800
famous Serbian Orthodox kings that we think are saints. So

1080
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:33,760
there's a long tradition of the warrior saint, which I

1081
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:37,360
think we need to recover in the West because we've

1082
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:42,480
been sold through liberalism, modernism, postmodernism, this idea that Christianity

1083
00:53:42,519 --> 00:53:47,360
is synonymous with pacifism and you know, just nonsense, which

1084
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:50,719
is it's just liberalism. Is one of the first things

1085
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:55,320
that pushes is pacifism, and that emasculates the culture in

1086
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:55,920
the society.

1087
00:53:56,239 --> 00:53:59,719
Speaker 2: Would you connect that to Christians being afraid to lean

1088
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:02,440
in to the institutions and lean into Hollywood and lean

1089
00:54:02,519 --> 00:54:06,239
into creativity and lean into media, meaning that a lot

1090
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:08,679
of times it seems like there's been an exodus from

1091
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:11,000
these arenas. And yes, I get it, Like, if you're

1092
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:14,239
in Hollywood, it's probably very difficult until recently to make

1093
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:16,960
something you're pumped on, or to participate on a project

1094
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:19,320
you're pumped on. But do you think that that's added

1095
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:24,159
to it, like leaving the institutions, leaving the media, the entertainment,

1096
00:54:24,199 --> 00:54:27,239
the arts when we used to drive all those things.

1097
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:33,440
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean, I think unless you are willfully choosing

1098
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:36,599
a monastic life, then you're called to be in the culture.

1099
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:40,079
And both are options, right. It's just like Paul gives

1100
00:54:40,119 --> 00:54:42,199
the option like if you would like to remain single,

1101
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:44,920
you can do that, but it needs to be something

1102
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:46,760
you can do, and it needs to be a gift

1103
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:48,880
that you have and you need to demonstrate that and

1104
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:50,159
if you want to go live in the monastery and

1105
00:54:50,159 --> 00:54:51,639
do that. But even the people in the monastery, like

1106
00:54:51,679 --> 00:54:54,960
they create elements of culture that we use, especially in

1107
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:58,119
the Orthodox world. Right, there's a lot of iconographers. There's

1108
00:54:58,119 --> 00:55:01,679
a lot of people who create you know, candles and

1109
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:02,840
you know, all kinds of stuff.

1110
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:04,559
Speaker 2: So and they're kind of they're also there to kind

1111
00:55:04,599 --> 00:55:05,599
of pray for for the rest of.

1112
00:55:05,599 --> 00:55:08,719
Speaker 1: Exactly the world exactly. And and you know, Christism talks

1113
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:11,159
about Saint John Christiam talks about you know, married people

1114
00:55:11,199 --> 00:55:13,559
living in the world and needing to be involved in

1115
00:55:13,599 --> 00:55:15,880
the culture. So yeah, I think we have a role

1116
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:18,760
of duty to be involved in that. And that's I mean,

1117
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:20,280
the whole history of the church has always said that

1118
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:23,639
it's both. Yeah. And at Niceia, for example, there was

1119
00:55:23,679 --> 00:55:27,079
an early debate in the church about could you be

1120
00:55:27,119 --> 00:55:30,400
a soldier and be a Christian because you had a

1121
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:32,719
faction of the early church that said kind of the

1122
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:35,119
way that like Roger Williams and sort of like some

1123
00:55:35,159 --> 00:55:38,599
of the Rhode Island Baptist thought, uh, you have to

1124
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:42,159
eschew all government service because for whatever reason he thought

1125
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:46,719
government was like evil like Satan created the government or something, right,

1126
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:50,360
And some of the early Niceing pre Nicene Christians bought

1127
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:53,079
that too, right, so they had also under Roman occupation,

1128
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:55,400
you could see what Yeah, you could see why they

1129
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:58,960
would think that. Yeah. And so when when Nicea happens,

1130
00:55:59,079 --> 00:56:00,519
one of the issues that come up to send the

1131
00:56:00,519 --> 00:56:02,039
cannons if you're the Canons, and I see it is

1132
00:56:02,039 --> 00:56:05,000
the question of canon Christian be a soldier. And the

1133
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,039
council says, yes, you can still be a soldier, and

1134
00:56:07,079 --> 00:56:09,960
they cite you know what John the Baptist says to

1135
00:56:10,039 --> 00:56:13,880
the Roman soldiers, you know, don't be abusive to people

1136
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:15,920
and you know, collect the right amount of tacks, don't

1137
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:18,880
like steal from people. Yeah, if you couldn't be a soldier,

1138
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:21,239
John the Baptist would have said, you need to stop

1139
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:22,519
being a soldier, right, right, right?

1140
00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:26,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, that's good, that's good. I think. I think

1141
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:29,519
passivism is connected to a fear of culture, and the

1142
00:56:29,559 --> 00:56:33,199
fear of culture is connected to a complete wasting a

1143
00:56:33,199 --> 00:56:36,239
way of culture without anyone there being the light. I

1144
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:38,679
am also empathetic to people that are like, well, dude,

1145
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:40,760
it sucks trying to be the light, you know, but

1146
00:56:41,159 --> 00:56:43,280
up until the last couple of years, where now you

1147
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:45,320
don't if you're like a bunch of my buddies are

1148
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:48,039
in music right, and there's some of the biggest streaming

1149
00:56:48,159 --> 00:56:50,719
artists on Spotify, some of the biggest touring artists like

1150
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:53,480
doing arenas now, right. I got somebodies that are doing

1151
00:56:53,519 --> 00:56:56,880
stadiums now and they are more or less on their own.

1152
00:56:57,239 --> 00:56:59,840
They don't have to operate within any major label machine.

1153
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:07,280
Vanilli is one. Yeah, No, Lucian Grange isn't involved, Universe

1154
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:11,280
wasn't involved. Like these mega conglomerates aren't telling them what

1155
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:15,719
to make, and they're more successful than their secular counterparts, right.

1156
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:19,320
So I was mentioning this to Jordan Peterson. I don't

1157
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:21,599
know if you know who Phil Wickham or Brandom Lake are,

1158
00:57:21,639 --> 00:57:26,199
but their next tour, they're they're literally hitting stadiums on

1159
00:57:26,239 --> 00:57:29,719
their next tour, right, And this is like overtly Christian

1160
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:33,519
worship music, and they're going from arenas to stadiums. The

1161
00:57:33,599 --> 00:57:35,440
only other people that are doing stadiums are like a

1162
00:57:35,519 --> 00:57:38,000
listers like Kendrick Lamars says. There's not a lot of

1163
00:57:38,039 --> 00:57:41,039
folks that are in stadiums, and so Brandon Lake, Phil

1164
00:57:41,079 --> 00:57:45,519
Wickham that are more or less, you know, fairly niche

1165
00:57:45,599 --> 00:57:49,079
artists are transitioning to the stadiums forst Frank is doing

1166
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:53,079
ten thousand people a night in arenas. This is outstreaming

1167
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:56,119
the bigger hip hop artists, the bigger pop artists. This

1168
00:57:56,239 --> 00:58:00,320
is outperforming their ticket sales. It's happening right now on

1169
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:04,119
the back of this decentralized revolution that's happened.

1170
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:07,039
Speaker 1: The same things happening I think in every air of

1171
00:58:07,039 --> 00:58:10,159
the arts right, Like I mean podcasting right, doing your

1172
00:58:10,159 --> 00:58:14,199
own media right, Like people don't want the degeneracy on

1173
00:58:14,239 --> 00:58:16,719
the whole. I think most people want the return to

1174
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:19,119
wholesome and so that's why it's working.

1175
00:58:19,239 --> 00:58:21,599
Speaker 2: Do you think the return to wholesome is because people

1176
00:58:21,599 --> 00:58:23,440
are returning to Christ or do you think the return

1177
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:26,840
of wholesome is because this like yearning inside of us

1178
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:29,760
that maybe we don't even know why we want something different.

1179
00:58:29,559 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 1: All the above. I mean, you know Augustin Santagustin said

1180
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:34,239
that you know, we have a hole in our heart

1181
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:38,800
that is infinite until God fills the whole. So I

1182
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:42,679
think at a macro level and at an individual level,

1183
00:58:42,719 --> 00:58:47,440
the society also wants what we have, yea, So it's

1184
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:48,960
just natural to move in that direction.

1185
00:58:49,199 --> 00:58:53,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was listening to CS Lewis on Near Christianity.

1186
00:58:53,679 --> 00:58:56,440
He said something similar where he said the idea that

1187
00:58:56,559 --> 00:58:58,599
there is a yearning for something beyond what we have.

1188
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:02,559
So like, you'll have them, you'll enjoy the food you're anticipating,

1189
00:59:02,599 --> 00:59:05,440
you'll enjoy the sex in your marriage, you'll enjoy the pleasure,

1190
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:09,440
but it's still fleeting, and you know there's something beyond this, right,

1191
00:59:09,599 --> 00:59:12,239
And he's like, that's an indication that there's something beyond

1192
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:13,880
this world and there's something And he goes on to

1193
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:16,880
make the claim that those who are actually heavenly minded

1194
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:20,000
end up making the most earthly impact, because if you're

1195
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:22,079
thinking of a world beyond this world, you're going to

1196
00:59:22,119 --> 00:59:23,960
make a bigger impact on this world. If you're only

1197
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:25,880
thinking about this world, you're not going to make an

1198
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:27,880
impact on this world, which is what's kind of paradox.

1199
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:30,119
Speaker 1: Opposite of like what the Marxists say, right, the Marxists

1200
00:59:30,119 --> 00:59:31,840
say that the only way to make an impact is

1201
00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:35,039
to forget this not existent and beyond. You have to

1202
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:39,159
secure your here in the now. So it's a reverse, right,

1203
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:42,039
the atheistic Marxist versus like what Lewis talks about.

1204
00:59:42,119 --> 00:59:47,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, interesting, Okay, you said Hollywood has predicted the end

1205
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:53,480
of the world, participating in that alchemy ritual working culminating

1206
00:59:53,639 --> 00:59:59,119
in a synchromatic self fulfilling prophecy. In your new book

1207
00:59:59,159 --> 01:00:01,880
that's coming out in You go deep on this idea

1208
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:03,599
of armor get in in the prediction of the end

1209
01:00:03,599 --> 01:00:06,760
of the world across multiple Hollywood films. Unpack some of

1210
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:07,920
that for me, And why do you think there's this

1211
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:11,280
prediction happening? Why is it is fascination with the end days?

1212
01:00:11,639 --> 01:00:13,519
And how is it different than the biblical account?

1213
01:00:14,119 --> 01:00:16,840
Speaker 1: It's very different, although ironically kind of like what you're

1214
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:18,800
saying with this yearning for the beyond that we all

1215
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:20,920
kind of have. Even if you're not a believer, or

1216
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:22,599
if you're you know, an atheist, you still have this

1217
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:25,360
craving for something more than here and the now. I

1218
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:30,320
think there's an implicit sense in all of us as

1219
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:33,760
well that everything has a beginning, middle, and an end.

1220
01:00:34,639 --> 01:00:37,159
So your life has a beginning, middle and end. Conversations

1221
01:00:37,199 --> 01:00:39,559
have beginning, middle, and end. We're in that middle aged stage, Jay,

1222
01:00:39,719 --> 01:00:42,360
you and me in your life has a middle age, right,

1223
01:00:44,039 --> 01:00:48,679
And so I think when people make movies and you

1224
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:54,239
do stories, you're limited in terms of the basic patterns.

1225
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:58,119
You can interject all kinds of infinite variations of characters

1226
01:00:58,199 --> 01:01:01,000
and details, but there's only some any kinds of stories

1227
01:01:01,039 --> 01:01:02,360
that you can do. Even if you tell a story

1228
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:04,639
outside out of time, like Tenant or something like, there's

1229
01:01:04,679 --> 01:01:10,480
still a beginning milling in and the focus of that

1230
01:01:10,599 --> 01:01:13,079
third book towards the end of it is not just

1231
01:01:13,239 --> 01:01:14,719
the end of the world. But I thought it was

1232
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:18,039
very providential that when I wrote the first book in

1233
01:01:18,079 --> 01:01:21,119
twenty sixteen, and it's almost ten years later, like how

1234
01:01:21,239 --> 01:01:23,000
much things have changed since twenty sixteen. I don't think

1235
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:26,519
of twenty sixteen, people were thinking the old legacy Hollywood

1236
01:01:26,519 --> 01:01:29,159
system could come to an end. The studio system now,

1237
01:01:29,239 --> 01:01:31,519
granted it's not perfect, like it's now going to be

1238
01:01:31,639 --> 01:01:34,480
like the big tech companies like Amazon and Apple Studios,

1239
01:01:34,519 --> 01:01:37,440
but the old system is kind of dying out, and

1240
01:01:38,559 --> 01:01:43,079
it promoted and used so much toxic, degenerate stuff to

1241
01:01:43,199 --> 01:01:46,280
destroy the culture by design effect. Edward Bennet is one

1242
01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:49,320
of the most famous propagandasts. In his book Propaganda, he

1243
01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:51,840
said Hollywood is the greatest engine of propaganda the world's

1244
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:54,320
ever seen. And I cited that in the first book,

1245
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:56,239
and then here we are ten years almost later for

1246
01:01:56,320 --> 01:02:01,119
the third book, and it's emblematic that Hollywood is having

1247
01:02:01,159 --> 01:02:04,599
its own apocalypse. So I thought it would be fitting

1248
01:02:05,079 --> 01:02:08,719
to write on the Hollywood apocalypse films. So I'm trying

1249
01:02:08,719 --> 01:02:11,920
to playing on, you know, dual senses there. But yeah,

1250
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:14,039
I saw I covered like Rosemary's Baby and a lot

1251
01:02:14,079 --> 01:02:17,000
of the influence that the satanic subculture had at that

1252
01:02:17,119 --> 01:02:20,559
time in the sixties. On Roman Polanski, who himself was

1253
01:02:20,599 --> 01:02:23,719
involved in some pretty nasty stuff. I won't say what,

1254
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:27,320
but he can't come to America. But so because of

1255
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:31,480
what he was involved in. But so you've got that,

1256
01:02:31,760 --> 01:02:35,480
You've got other apocalypse films that John Carpenter did, which

1257
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:38,280
I think are a little more positive in terms of

1258
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:40,880
their critique of the dystopia and the end of the world.

1259
01:02:41,239 --> 01:02:44,480
They're kind of dark, but they're also maybe you could

1260
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:47,960
say pseudo Christian or almost Christian and their themes. You have,

1261
01:02:48,199 --> 01:02:52,159
you know, the notion of virtuous sacrifice and overcoming you know, Antichrist,

1262
01:02:52,239 --> 01:02:54,320
that kind of stuff. And I get into some of

1263
01:02:54,360 --> 01:02:56,960
the you know, more ridiculous stuff that Hollywood's put out,

1264
01:02:57,719 --> 01:03:00,920
like the Omen and that kind of stuff, which loosely

1265
01:03:01,199 --> 01:03:05,480
references biblical and time stuff, but very very much twists

1266
01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:08,400
it into something maybe almost neo gnostic, like we talked

1267
01:03:08,440 --> 01:03:11,719
about earlier. So it's interesting because a lot of the occultists,

1268
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:15,480
like they actually like the Book of Revelation. They don't believe,

1269
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:17,960
I'm but they don't believe. They don't believe in it

1270
01:03:18,119 --> 01:03:21,320
as the Christian perspective. They argue, oh, this is a

1271
01:03:21,400 --> 01:03:23,719
secret Gnostic text that you need like a code, and

1272
01:03:24,159 --> 01:03:25,960
my cult will give you the code to decode it.

1273
01:03:26,360 --> 01:03:29,320
So they believe that it's actually a ritual working that

1274
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:34,880
you can invoke Babylon the Harlot into time and space

1275
01:03:35,559 --> 01:03:40,000
to achieve the end time and Crowley himself thought he

1276
01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:43,400
was the Beast of the Book of Revelation and he

1277
01:03:43,639 --> 01:03:48,360
would make his girlfriends his consort Harlot, so the beast

1278
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:50,679
and the bride of the Beast the Harlot right Revelation

1279
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:54,639
seventeen eighteen. I mean, it's crazy, but he had that view,

1280
01:03:55,280 --> 01:03:57,679
and then a lot of occultists after him who follow

1281
01:03:57,760 --> 01:03:59,519
his work. He's very influential, like all the way down

1282
01:03:59,559 --> 01:04:04,119
to like like all these people are, so they think, oh,

1283
01:04:04,199 --> 01:04:07,039
I can you know, participate in the invocation of Babylon.

1284
01:04:07,079 --> 01:04:09,320
If you remember, my wife put this in her book

1285
01:04:09,960 --> 01:04:13,719
when Katy Perry did the halftime show. Yeah, she wrote

1286
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:15,199
out on a giant beast, So it was like the

1287
01:04:15,239 --> 01:04:19,840
woman rides the beast, right, it was intentional like apocalypse symbolism.

1288
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:22,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, what's his name? I can't remember the guy's name,

1289
01:04:22,039 --> 01:04:26,159
but the guy who directed the Rihanna Umbrella video, which

1290
01:04:26,239 --> 01:04:28,639
is all pretty pretty upbeat and bubbly, like this happy

1291
01:04:28,639 --> 01:04:32,280
bubbly song. Rihanna's big first hit just recently came out,

1292
01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:35,239
and like said, yeah, jay Z asked me to put

1293
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:39,280
these Illuminati type symbols in the video. And so some

1294
01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:41,280
of it, he said was accidental, like he had her

1295
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:44,119
in a triangle and she was like boxing. He's like

1296
01:04:44,199 --> 01:04:46,000
that was like accidents. But he's like this other stuff

1297
01:04:46,519 --> 01:04:49,199
like he asked me to do this, and he his

1298
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:51,639
theory was more or less he's trolling. He's just trying

1299
01:04:51,679 --> 01:04:54,679
to stir up controversy, get people talking to to kind

1300
01:04:54,719 --> 01:04:57,519
of lean into this whole thing of like this mystique

1301
01:04:57,559 --> 01:04:59,400
that he was trying to build for himself and his artist.

1302
01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:02,000
But but like much like my buddy Shane Smith who

1303
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:05,960
started trolling with Satanism and oh, it's just we're just

1304
01:05:06,039 --> 01:05:08,960
atheist trolling God and Christianity, and then it starts to

1305
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:10,280
potentially get a hold of you.

1306
01:05:10,519 --> 01:05:13,320
Speaker 1: Right Yeah, yeah, I think in the world of the

1307
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:15,760
pop stars, we've seen that for a long time. In fact,

1308
01:05:15,800 --> 01:05:18,159
we were just watching some old Madonna stuff from like

1309
01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:22,199
the early two thousands. If you watch her the song

1310
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:26,599
that she did for Uh Die Another Day, the James

1311
01:05:26,679 --> 01:05:30,039
Bond movie with Pierce Brosman, If you watch that music video,

1312
01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:35,599
like it's full of like cabalistic ritual invocations, like literally

1313
01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:38,480
and she's got like cabalistic texts written. I had a

1314
01:05:38,519 --> 01:05:40,480
friend who's who knows Hebrew, and he was like telling me,

1315
01:05:40,519 --> 01:05:42,800
all the what what the inscriptions say because it's written

1316
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:46,519
in Hebrew. But Madonna famously in the two thousands came

1317
01:05:46,559 --> 01:05:48,760
out and said, oh, I'm an actual coblist.

1318
01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:51,760
Speaker 2: Yeah's true practicing cabal is it cabal or a cabalist?

1319
01:05:52,559 --> 01:05:54,800
Speaker 1: Well, if you believe it and practice that, you are

1320
01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:57,880
a colt. But what you're practicing is at and that's

1321
01:05:57,920 --> 01:06:01,000
like a that's like a Jewish medieval wish mysticism. But

1322
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:03,880
if you read Chrisham Sholam, who's kind of the ultimate

1323
01:06:04,360 --> 01:06:07,599
cobblist scholar of the last century, he just says, kabbala

1324
01:06:07,840 --> 01:06:13,239
is it's Jewish gnostic philosophy theology. So it's equivalent and

1325
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:18,280
very synonymous with neoplatonism too. So anyway, but yeah, I

1326
01:06:18,280 --> 01:06:20,360
mean so in other words, you can go back to

1327
01:06:20,559 --> 01:06:22,800
when nobody was in you know, two thousand and two

1328
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:25,400
three thinking about this stuff like we do nowadays, Like

1329
01:06:25,599 --> 01:06:27,519
what's that someone mean in that video? Like they were

1330
01:06:27,559 --> 01:06:30,199
putting it in the videos, you know, back then, and

1331
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:32,239
we've retroactively kind of gone back through a lot of

1332
01:06:32,280 --> 01:06:35,400
those music videos and I want to be nuanced because,

1333
01:06:35,519 --> 01:06:39,039
like you said, it's not like every artist and every

1334
01:06:39,360 --> 01:06:42,239
you know, cinematographer making the videos is like we got

1335
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:44,840
to pack everything so like it'll be both right. There

1336
01:06:44,880 --> 01:06:48,320
could be accidental things, and I also think some of

1337
01:06:48,360 --> 01:06:50,400
these people might even tap into things that they don't

1338
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:52,400
even understand, you know what I mean, Like a lot

1339
01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:53,880
of people are doing drugs, a lot of people are

1340
01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:57,519
doing LSD, A lot of people are doing getting inspiration

1341
01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:03,480
from avenues that can be a demonic influence. Does that

1342
01:07:03,559 --> 01:07:03,960
make sense?

1343
01:07:04,039 --> 01:07:07,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I think that's very prevalent, right,

1344
01:07:07,960 --> 01:07:11,559
people tapping into other stuff. I've never done any of

1345
01:07:11,599 --> 01:07:13,679
those harder drugs that like I've just smoked weed. But

1346
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:16,000
would you say, because you said you've dabbled in LSD

1347
01:07:16,119 --> 01:07:18,280
and that was the thing that like maybe five times,

1348
01:07:18,400 --> 01:07:19,960
and I said had a bad trip once? Was the

1349
01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:22,079
bad trip which led you to faith? Or was it

1350
01:07:22,159 --> 01:07:23,559
a good trip that llegited faly because I remember you

1351
01:07:23,599 --> 01:07:24,199
talked about it.

1352
01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:27,320
Speaker 1: Was I mean it was a factor. It wasn't like

1353
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:28,880
I had a bad trip and then the next day

1354
01:07:28,920 --> 01:07:30,480
I was at church. It was like I had a

1355
01:07:30,559 --> 01:07:33,840
bad trip and it was a really dark experience and

1356
01:07:33,920 --> 01:07:36,079
the darknesses will push you to the light. It was

1357
01:07:36,119 --> 01:07:37,719
a factor that got me on that path.

1358
01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:40,840
Speaker 2: Gotcha interesting, I would I would hope that more people

1359
01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:43,880
would go your route with experimenting with that sort of stuff.

1360
01:07:43,920 --> 01:07:47,880
Speaker 1: Well, actually, a lot of people who I've met in

1361
01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:50,159
the last five years that have come into Orthodoxy, they

1362
01:07:50,239 --> 01:07:54,960
came from the psychedelia d mt J Rogan world that

1363
01:07:55,039 --> 01:07:55,559
came into.

1364
01:07:55,599 --> 01:07:56,880
Speaker 2: What do you think that Do you think that that's

1365
01:07:58,159 --> 01:08:02,039
that is that is that your mind having a chemical trip,

1366
01:08:02,199 --> 01:08:04,079
or do you think it's actually opening you up to

1367
01:08:04,159 --> 01:08:06,639
a spirit realm, like a real spirit realm.

1368
01:08:06,679 --> 01:08:08,840
Speaker 1: I hate to keep saying both, but I feel I

1369
01:08:08,840 --> 01:08:10,719
think it's both. I think it's both of Yeah, do

1370
01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:12,360
you think it's always both? Or do you think for

1371
01:08:12,440 --> 01:08:17,039
some people it is just a chemical happening inside of

1372
01:08:17,119 --> 01:08:22,479
their physical frame. Yeah, it's a hard question because I've

1373
01:08:22,520 --> 01:08:25,199
actually tried to study this sum on an academic level.

1374
01:08:26,199 --> 01:08:28,239
There's a good book written I forget the guy's name,

1375
01:08:28,279 --> 01:08:31,000
but it's an Oxford Press book on the history of shamanism,

1376
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:37,159
And in that book, the guy argues that we can't

1377
01:08:37,479 --> 01:08:39,960
I think Jordan Pearson even says the same thing. We

1378
01:08:40,079 --> 01:08:46,520
can't say that it's totally mental, because there's a consistent

1379
01:08:46,640 --> 01:08:52,159
pattern that most people in discrete shamanic traditions across the world,

1380
01:08:52,239 --> 01:08:55,680
they have an actual pattern to their trips, to their journeys.

1381
01:08:56,800 --> 01:09:00,000
And if it was all purely subjective or a mental career,

1382
01:09:00,479 --> 01:09:04,000
you wouldn't necessarily see these sorts of patterns, which suggests

1383
01:09:04,079 --> 01:09:10,560
that there is some architecture or some realm that has

1384
01:09:12,159 --> 01:09:14,880
some reality to it ontologically speaking, that people are tapping

1385
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:18,159
into and then separate from when I was reading that

1386
01:09:18,199 --> 01:09:21,640
book on shamanism, I was reading some of the Orthodox

1387
01:09:21,760 --> 01:09:27,199
saints and elders talking about the same idea that when

1388
01:09:27,279 --> 01:09:31,800
you go into these dissociative states or these ultraconscious estates,

1389
01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:36,680
there are patterns and regularities that suggest that it's more

1390
01:09:36,760 --> 01:09:41,640
than just a pure mental creation. Interesting. That's interesting. Okay, So.

1391
01:09:43,760 --> 01:09:48,399
Speaker 2: Ironically you mentioned this earlier. Hollywood consistently predicting the end

1392
01:09:49,039 --> 01:09:54,359
in their apocalyptic stories indirectly or directly, maybe is now

1393
01:09:54,439 --> 01:09:56,359
has led to the end of Hollywood as we know it.

1394
01:09:57,000 --> 01:10:01,840
And with media being decentralized and with you said just

1395
01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:05,920
kind of like this reorganization of the conglomerates, you know, Apple, Amazon,

1396
01:10:06,119 --> 01:10:09,399
kind of becoming the new Hollywood if you will, do

1397
01:10:09,520 --> 01:10:10,960
you feel like Hollywood's dead?

1398
01:10:12,880 --> 01:10:14,720
Speaker 1: Yeah? In fact, you know, one of our good buddies,

1399
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:18,199
Jamie Kennedy, the comedian guy who does the Jamie Kinnedy

1400
01:10:18,199 --> 01:10:22,640
experiment and tons of classic movies, Alby's most wanted. Like,

1401
01:10:22,800 --> 01:10:25,239
We've done a couple live shows with him and he

1402
01:10:25,279 --> 01:10:27,840
comes and does stand up. The first interview we did

1403
01:10:27,920 --> 01:10:31,920
with him, he was like, Hollywood's dad, did Hollywood's dad.

1404
01:10:33,239 --> 01:10:35,159
Our first interview was like, that's the first thing he says,

1405
01:10:35,199 --> 01:10:36,560
and I'm like, what do you mean. He's like, oh,

1406
01:10:36,600 --> 01:10:39,079
it's dead. It's It's like, it's it's all you know

1407
01:10:39,359 --> 01:10:42,520
what we're doing. Yeah, that's the future. Huh. So you

1408
01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:45,000
got people in Hollywood have been there since the nineties,

1409
01:10:45,119 --> 01:10:47,439
you know, doing well back in the two thousands, a

1410
01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:53,279
list movies. But yeah, I think Hollywood predicted its own

1411
01:10:53,359 --> 01:11:00,520
demise by pushing an anti Christ message in philosophy is

1412
01:11:01,279 --> 01:11:03,119
ensuring your own apocalypse, you know what I mean?

1413
01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:06,800
Speaker 2: Irony, Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. Okay, you talked a bit

1414
01:11:06,880 --> 01:11:11,159
about like your comedy live events, said Jamie Kennedy. Was

1415
01:11:11,199 --> 01:11:12,880
that one of those two of those?

1416
01:11:12,920 --> 01:11:13,159
Speaker 1: Okay?

1417
01:11:14,199 --> 01:11:16,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like I haven't. I've just seen this

1418
01:11:16,600 --> 01:11:18,199
stuff you showed me on your phone and on Instagram.

1419
01:11:18,239 --> 01:11:21,680
But it sounds like you guys are creating. You're creating

1420
01:11:21,720 --> 01:11:24,439
content that's very interesting because you're talking about esoteric collig

1421
01:11:24,439 --> 01:11:27,840
which you're talking about philosophy, you're talking about Orthodoxy, you

1422
01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:30,680
talking about Christianity, theology, you're debating Muslims. But then you

1423
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:33,079
have these live events where you're kind of infusing this

1424
01:11:33,680 --> 01:11:36,560
where you're doing music. Is it cringe core?

1425
01:11:36,600 --> 01:11:37,279
Speaker 1: Is that what you called it?

1426
01:11:39,079 --> 01:11:43,680
Speaker 2: Comedy? Like a live podcast type of thing and lectures?

1427
01:11:44,319 --> 01:11:45,960
Tell me about those and kind of what what what

1428
01:11:46,159 --> 01:11:48,800
made you guys go? We should we should consider doing

1429
01:11:48,960 --> 01:11:49,840
in person gatherings.

1430
01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:52,359
Speaker 1: We kind of joked about doing live stuff a few

1431
01:11:52,439 --> 01:11:54,279
years ago, but I didn't really think that I had

1432
01:11:54,319 --> 01:11:56,800
the audience yet to do it. And then I have

1433
01:11:56,880 --> 01:11:59,800
to give credit to Sam Tripoli their stand up, because

1434
01:11:59,840 --> 01:12:02,560
he he was like, dude, you gotta do live and

1435
01:12:02,640 --> 01:12:04,840
I was like, I never thought about that, And I

1436
01:12:04,880 --> 01:12:06,000
was like, what do you mean. He's liked, just go

1437
01:12:06,279 --> 01:12:09,600
rent out, you know, an event space for one hundred

1438
01:12:09,600 --> 01:12:12,880
and hundred fifty people, sell tickets and have people come

1439
01:12:12,960 --> 01:12:16,079
and you know, just do your talks live, and uh yeah,

1440
01:12:16,119 --> 01:12:18,439
he was spot on. He nailed it. And he's been

1441
01:12:18,479 --> 01:12:20,439
doing stand up for twenty years, so he's you know,

1442
01:12:20,680 --> 01:12:23,840
he knows the vibe of live stuff. And I was

1443
01:12:23,880 --> 01:12:25,960
a little iffy about it just because I've never done

1444
01:12:25,960 --> 01:12:28,439
a live, live event before. And then so we did

1445
01:12:28,479 --> 01:12:30,680
our first one in Nashville last year and it was awesome,

1446
01:12:30,760 --> 01:12:34,439
Like we had all of our you know, hardcore devoted

1447
01:12:34,520 --> 01:12:38,520
you know fans and followers show up and it's just

1448
01:12:38,560 --> 01:12:41,000
like a big party basically, and the way we structure

1449
01:12:41,039 --> 01:12:43,159
it is like I open it up, it's an all

1450
01:12:43,239 --> 01:12:45,079
day event, so basically from like two or three in

1451
01:12:45,119 --> 01:12:47,319
the afternoon until you know, nine or ten at night, right,

1452
01:12:47,439 --> 01:12:50,760
so you're getting your money's worth forty fifty dollars ticket.

1453
01:12:51,159 --> 01:12:53,560
It's not just me, but it's also Jamie does my

1454
01:12:53,640 --> 01:12:56,079
wife does a talk and then usually what we've done

1455
01:12:56,199 --> 01:12:57,920
is have a guest with us. So depending on what

1456
01:12:58,039 --> 01:12:59,840
city we're in, So for in LA, we get somebody

1457
01:12:59,920 --> 01:13:02,960
like Jamie Kennedy, if we're in Austin, we get other

1458
01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:04,880
stand ups or comedians there to come out and do it,

1459
01:13:06,279 --> 01:13:08,760
and then I do a talk on whatever the book

1460
01:13:08,880 --> 01:13:13,399
is this year. I usually tie it into like you said, spirituality,

1461
01:13:13,520 --> 01:13:18,880
orthodox theology, geopolitical, conspiracy quote unquote, topics, film, Hollywood, all

1462
01:13:18,880 --> 01:13:21,520
of it is tied in. Yeah, and it makes for

1463
01:13:21,640 --> 01:13:24,359
like a whole, you know, day long party. We have

1464
01:13:25,279 --> 01:13:27,840
book signing at the end, merch all that stuff. Everybody

1465
01:13:27,920 --> 01:13:28,199
loves it.

1466
01:13:28,439 --> 01:13:30,520
Speaker 2: And is the comedy aspect that you do? Is it

1467
01:13:30,720 --> 01:13:33,600
like stand up? Is it written? Are you writing your

1468
01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:36,199
jokes out word for word? Is it more improv Tell

1469
01:13:36,239 --> 01:13:36,760
me what that's like.

1470
01:13:36,840 --> 01:13:38,439
Speaker 1: It's pretty much improv I mean I do have some

1471
01:13:38,640 --> 01:13:41,039
kind of you know, set stuff that I do, but like,

1472
01:13:41,560 --> 01:13:43,319
so we do a little crowd work and then a

1473
01:13:43,359 --> 01:13:46,199
lot of it's impressions. I do like fifty impressions and

1474
01:13:46,760 --> 01:13:49,760
would you do an impression? Maybe, okay, if you guys

1475
01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:53,319
are nice to me, all right. So there's a lot

1476
01:13:53,359 --> 01:13:55,680
of impressions we've done, and then we do the music

1477
01:13:55,760 --> 01:13:57,279
the song. So most of the songs are kind of

1478
01:13:57,319 --> 01:14:00,159
improvka And that just happened because I was doing live

1479
01:14:00,159 --> 01:14:01,960
streams and people were like, hey, why don't you play

1480
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:03,800
some royalty for your music in the background. Yeah, So

1481
01:14:03,880 --> 01:14:06,600
I was doing it just kind of to have music

1482
01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:09,279
in the background, sure, and then like I started rapping,

1483
01:14:09,319 --> 01:14:11,840
I started singing, and it was so dumb that everybody

1484
01:14:11,920 --> 01:14:14,279
loved it. So people started clipping it and I was like,

1485
01:14:15,159 --> 01:14:17,159
I don't know, just make this into like a song, right,

1486
01:14:17,239 --> 01:14:20,199
So then we started doing songs and it's just another

1487
01:14:20,359 --> 01:14:24,279
little niche pivot thing that we have. So that's so interesting.

1488
01:14:24,359 --> 01:14:26,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've been talking about doing live stuff, so I was,

1489
01:14:26,560 --> 01:14:27,880
I mean, we talked a lot about it last night,

1490
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:31,079
but I've been really intrigued by that and ultimately, like

1491
01:14:31,319 --> 01:14:32,680
I think what's cool about what you do is that

1492
01:14:32,960 --> 01:14:35,960
you don't allow yourself to be pigeonholed to one thing.

1493
01:14:36,560 --> 01:14:39,720
So the live events aren't just one thing. They're they're

1494
01:14:39,760 --> 01:14:40,039
kind of.

1495
01:14:40,199 --> 01:14:42,800
Speaker 1: All of it. We don't really have debates. I mean,

1496
01:14:43,560 --> 01:14:44,840
we do Q and A usually because a lot of

1497
01:14:44,880 --> 01:14:46,439
people want to have like, you know, I want to

1498
01:14:46,479 --> 01:14:48,359
ask you a question about this book in that book. Yeah,

1499
01:14:48,439 --> 01:14:50,520
so there's a lot of Q and A. But I've

1500
01:14:50,560 --> 01:14:54,319
only done one live debate, which is, you know, odd

1501
01:14:54,560 --> 01:14:57,239
because we've done so many debates over the last eight years.

1502
01:14:57,399 --> 01:15:00,439
But that was because I kind of body it to debate.

1503
01:15:00,640 --> 01:15:06,119
Three way debate Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, so but yeah, except

1504
01:15:06,159 --> 01:15:09,960
for debate, it's everything else that we do, some movies, comedy.

1505
01:15:09,640 --> 01:15:12,279
Speaker 2: On what's the demographic of the folks that are showing

1506
01:15:12,319 --> 01:15:15,159
up to this, like what ages, backgrounds?

1507
01:15:16,319 --> 01:15:22,680
Speaker 1: Usually it's I would say twenty to forty five and

1508
01:15:23,439 --> 01:15:26,600
mostly people who are married with kids, so a lot

1509
01:15:26,680 --> 01:15:29,640
of young couples. When you get a lot of Orthodox churches,

1510
01:15:29,720 --> 01:15:33,079
like they're dominated by young people and their kids. So

1511
01:15:33,119 --> 01:15:35,000
I think we've seen a huge influx in the Orthodox

1512
01:15:35,119 --> 01:15:42,439
world of people in our demographic audience. Niche not as

1513
01:15:42,479 --> 01:15:44,399
many girls and moving to get some females. But my

1514
01:15:44,479 --> 01:15:47,600
audience is like ten percent female, ninety percent dudes.

1515
01:15:48,359 --> 01:15:51,279
Speaker 2: Which your YouTube tends to skew heavily towards dudes in general.

1516
01:15:51,680 --> 01:15:53,239
It's a very male dominant platform.

1517
01:15:53,319 --> 01:15:57,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah, like we I would say probably thirty

1518
01:15:57,279 --> 01:15:59,920
percent of the audience is you thirty to forty is Orthodox,

1519
01:16:01,439 --> 01:16:06,920
thirty to forty maybe Hollywood conspiracy interested people, especially if

1520
01:16:06,960 --> 01:16:08,640
we do it in LA it's a lot of movie

1521
01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:11,439
crowd people. And then like thirty forty percent Alex Jones audience.

1522
01:16:11,640 --> 01:16:15,199
Speaker 2: Okay, so okay, that's interesting, and you've how long have

1523
01:16:15,279 --> 01:16:16,640
you been doing stuff with Alex Jones.

1524
01:16:17,159 --> 01:16:19,720
Speaker 1: I got invited on in twenty twenty to be a guest,

1525
01:16:20,119 --> 01:16:23,239
and they really liked the segment and was this remote

1526
01:16:23,399 --> 01:16:26,359
or was this in person? The first one was remote,

1527
01:16:27,159 --> 01:16:30,199
and then the producer was like, yeah, that was a

1528
01:16:30,239 --> 01:16:32,359
really great segment. We're looking you know, would you like

1529
01:16:32,399 --> 01:16:34,600
to do a Fourth Hour host as a test? So

1530
01:16:34,680 --> 01:16:37,720
I did that for a few weeks and then I

1531
01:16:37,800 --> 01:16:40,319
just got a regular spot of Friday hosting for the

1532
01:16:40,640 --> 01:16:43,800
last five years and that helped grow the audience a lot.

1533
01:16:43,920 --> 01:16:46,239
And Alex has been super cool and we've done several

1534
01:16:46,279 --> 01:16:50,359
in studio like specials and reports and all that over

1535
01:16:50,399 --> 01:16:54,399
the last five years. But the last couple months, because

1536
01:16:54,399 --> 01:16:58,039
of his legal issues with them trying to shut down

1537
01:16:58,079 --> 01:17:01,399
Info Wars, there's been no Fourth Hour hosts. So all

1538
01:17:01,439 --> 01:17:04,760
the Fourth Hour hosts were kind of paused because it's

1539
01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:07,399
in limbo as to what's going to happen in for Wars.

1540
01:17:07,640 --> 01:17:09,439
Speaker 2: I thought he regranted, like I thought, wasn't that the

1541
01:17:09,520 --> 01:17:11,800
Onion bought Info Wars And that was not true.

1542
01:17:11,880 --> 01:17:12,399
Speaker 1: That was not true.

1543
01:17:12,479 --> 01:17:14,920
Speaker 2: No, that's actually kind of funny that the Onion buying

1544
01:17:15,039 --> 01:17:15,640
Info Wars.

1545
01:17:15,720 --> 01:17:17,920
Speaker 1: And then they just kept saying that they had but

1546
01:17:18,720 --> 01:17:21,840
it's still like in legal limbo because it keeps going

1547
01:17:21,880 --> 01:17:24,600
back and forth between I don't know all the legalities,

1548
01:17:24,680 --> 01:17:28,359
but it's it's right now. It's technically in limbo, so okay,

1549
01:17:28,520 --> 01:17:30,439
it keeps going to the judge and the judge has

1550
01:17:30,479 --> 01:17:32,000
to like sift through.

1551
01:17:32,119 --> 01:17:34,000
Speaker 2: Are they making him sell info Wars?

1552
01:17:35,079 --> 01:17:37,279
Speaker 1: That's what they're trying to do. Okay, he's already set

1553
01:17:37,399 --> 01:17:42,640
up the backup AU shows network, Yes, but he doesn't

1554
01:17:42,720 --> 01:17:46,039
necessarily he's not yet yet lost in force per se

1555
01:17:46,199 --> 01:17:47,640
got it, but they're still trying to get it.

1556
01:17:48,000 --> 01:17:50,159
Speaker 2: Where would you put him in terms of the category

1557
01:17:50,680 --> 01:17:55,640
or the spectrum of like serious conspiracy theorists that's citing

1558
01:17:56,439 --> 01:17:59,760
stuff like you are, versus like more of a pop

1559
01:18:00,119 --> 01:18:01,279
surface level conspiracy.

1560
01:18:01,479 --> 01:18:03,239
Speaker 1: I have to get Alex's credit because I started listening

1561
01:18:03,279 --> 01:18:06,399
to two thousand and three to Alex, and he was

1562
01:18:06,479 --> 01:18:09,359
the one that was citing all of these texts that

1563
01:18:10,159 --> 01:18:11,960
I was kind of skeptical when I first heard him

1564
01:18:12,000 --> 01:18:16,199
back then, and that led me to go and pick

1565
01:18:16,239 --> 01:18:18,479
out all the texts he would reference and I would

1566
01:18:18,520 --> 01:18:21,159
just read them all. And so one of the things

1567
01:18:21,199 --> 01:18:22,880
I do on my channel is what I call a

1568
01:18:22,880 --> 01:18:27,000
global elite lecture series. So I literally lecture through these

1569
01:18:27,239 --> 01:18:30,840
like massive, like thirteen hundred paged homes that no one

1570
01:18:30,880 --> 01:18:35,479
else has time or energy to read, like Tragy and Hope. So, like,

1571
01:18:35,560 --> 01:18:37,800
Alex would talk about this book for years and I

1572
01:18:37,880 --> 01:18:39,520
finally decided, Okay, I got to get it and read it.

1573
01:18:40,199 --> 01:18:43,840
He's one of the top geostrategists for our oligarchical elite.

1574
01:18:43,880 --> 01:18:47,119
He was Bill Clinton's mentor. And so I went through

1575
01:18:47,119 --> 01:18:48,920
this whole thing, and somebody said, hey, why don't you

1576
01:18:49,039 --> 01:18:53,600
just do lectures on these books that way, it's sourced,

1577
01:18:53,760 --> 01:18:58,359
it's not theorizing, it's not speculation, it's literally just grounded

1578
01:18:58,399 --> 01:19:02,479
in those sources. Yeah. So I would say, absolutely, Alex

1579
01:19:02,560 --> 01:19:05,560
knows his stuff. He's not nobody's infallible. He's gotten some

1580
01:19:05,640 --> 01:19:07,680
things wrong, sure, but I have too. Yeah.

1581
01:19:08,079 --> 01:19:11,479
Speaker 2: So you think with regards to the Sandy Hook thing,

1582
01:19:11,560 --> 01:19:13,000
that was just a thing he just kind of struck

1583
01:19:13,039 --> 01:19:13,239
out on.

1584
01:19:14,520 --> 01:19:16,439
Speaker 1: I think what he did was he would have people

1585
01:19:16,560 --> 01:19:22,279
on that were all views like totally denying it, saying

1586
01:19:22,359 --> 01:19:24,760
it was real but it was a conspiracy, saying that

1587
01:19:25,000 --> 01:19:27,560
there was no conspiracy. So he would have an open debate,

1588
01:19:28,479 --> 01:19:32,800
and there were a couple people that they didn't really

1589
01:19:32,960 --> 01:19:36,399
vet very well, Like not Alex, but like some of

1590
01:19:36,479 --> 01:19:39,399
the team just didn't vet the people coming on very well,

1591
01:19:39,720 --> 01:19:44,239
and those people ended up kind of being suss I

1592
01:19:44,279 --> 01:19:46,720
guess you could say, very sort of shady characters who

1593
01:19:46,760 --> 01:19:49,920
were making a lot of outlandish claims. So when the

1594
01:19:50,000 --> 01:19:52,199
trials were happening, if you watch some of the legal

1595
01:19:52,279 --> 01:19:56,039
proceedings on like the long crime channels or whatever, that's

1596
01:19:56,119 --> 01:19:58,039
what they were bringing up, like why did you not

1597
01:19:58,199 --> 01:20:01,039
vet these people calling in and doing this and that?

1598
01:20:01,279 --> 01:20:05,039
So that was the grounds for at least I think

1599
01:20:05,039 --> 01:20:06,760
there was three cases in one of the cases is

1600
01:20:06,840 --> 01:20:09,039
what I saw. But so I think there was a

1601
01:20:09,119 --> 01:20:12,159
failure on some of the team to that. But Alex,

1602
01:20:12,279 --> 01:20:17,359
I mean you probably like big name people have a team, Yeah,

1603
01:20:17,399 --> 01:20:18,720
you know what I mean. It's like they come in

1604
01:20:18,840 --> 01:20:21,319
and do the show, and you've got the people they're

1605
01:20:21,319 --> 01:20:21,760
supposed to be.

1606
01:20:21,880 --> 01:20:23,880
Speaker 2: It's more so like the researchers and the people they

1607
01:20:23,960 --> 01:20:29,359
allowed to influence his frame of that situation failed him

1608
01:20:29,680 --> 01:20:32,399
to that, and he doesn't do all of his own

1609
01:20:32,439 --> 01:20:34,760
research per se and in that that's why he made

1610
01:20:34,800 --> 01:20:38,039
some of the statements about it being method crisis. Actors

1611
01:20:38,079 --> 01:20:39,800
and it's all fake and all this stuff is real.

1612
01:20:40,000 --> 01:20:42,079
Speaker 1: There was a main dude, and I don't want to

1613
01:20:42,079 --> 01:20:45,079
get like to, you know, but he was calling in

1614
01:20:45,359 --> 01:20:48,520
often and really pushing that line, and that influenced the

1615
01:20:48,520 --> 01:20:52,399
Alex and that's what led to your promoting this on

1616
01:20:53,079 --> 01:20:54,319
your big platform. Yeah.

1617
01:20:54,800 --> 01:20:57,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, that's crazy. That's interesting.

1618
01:20:57,520 --> 01:20:57,720
Speaker 1: It was.

1619
01:20:57,800 --> 01:21:01,880
Speaker 2: It's interesting to hear a take like that because usually

1620
01:21:01,960 --> 01:21:03,680
it's just like, dude, this dude just kind of jumped

1621
01:21:03,680 --> 01:21:05,640
all the way out the window and said some crazy

1622
01:21:05,680 --> 01:21:06,680
stuff about.

1623
01:21:06,520 --> 01:21:08,319
Speaker 1: Well, he walked it back after. I know, he walked

1624
01:21:08,359 --> 01:21:11,119
back there. Well even right after there was like some

1625
01:21:11,279 --> 01:21:13,960
heat back in twenty thirteen. Then he kind of walked

1626
01:21:14,000 --> 01:21:16,640
it back and was like, look, I don't I'm just

1627
01:21:17,039 --> 01:21:20,000
giving a platform to everybody. It's a it's a radio

1628
01:21:20,079 --> 01:21:22,199
call in show, right, so people call in and say

1629
01:21:22,199 --> 01:21:22,920
all kinds of stuff.

1630
01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:25,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, well there's the They played the clips of him

1631
01:21:25,279 --> 01:21:27,840
making the statements. What you're saying is influenced by the

1632
01:21:27,840 --> 01:21:29,560
people that called in and some of their sources. I

1633
01:21:29,640 --> 01:21:31,880
only ask for Alex Jones one cause your connection. I

1634
01:21:31,960 --> 01:21:34,359
have a buddies whose daughter was at Sandy Hook when

1635
01:21:34,399 --> 01:21:38,199
it happened and I knew him back then while they

1636
01:21:38,239 --> 01:21:39,760
were going through it, and I know the amount of

1637
01:21:40,199 --> 01:21:42,560
counseling she had to go through and how damaging that

1638
01:21:42,720 --> 01:21:45,600
was to their family, lost teachers, lost friends, And so

1639
01:21:45,840 --> 01:21:48,880
hearing anyone say like this wasn't real when I know

1640
01:21:49,000 --> 01:21:51,199
people directly connected, I was like, man, this is It

1641
01:21:51,279 --> 01:21:53,760
is a bad look for anyone to be propagating this

1642
01:21:53,760 --> 01:21:54,119
sort of thing.

1643
01:21:54,199 --> 01:21:56,760
Speaker 1: I think what happens is that when you start to

1644
01:21:56,840 --> 01:21:58,960
read a lot of this kind of stuff and you

1645
01:21:59,239 --> 01:22:02,239
if you don't stick to like the source material like

1646
01:22:02,319 --> 01:22:06,239
I'm talking about, Like, what happens is you can develop

1647
01:22:06,319 --> 01:22:10,119
a kind of a gut reaction to see everything one way.

1648
01:22:11,039 --> 01:22:14,439
And in logic, it's there's two fallacies that are very

1649
01:22:14,479 --> 01:22:16,880
closely as social. One of them is the gambler's fallacy.

1650
01:22:17,439 --> 01:22:20,640
The other one is Texas sharpshooter fallacy. So like, for example,

1651
01:22:20,640 --> 01:22:23,760
if I roll a dice and I get let's say

1652
01:22:23,760 --> 01:22:26,159
I roll it twice and I get a three both times,

1653
01:22:26,920 --> 01:22:30,000
there's no logical necessity that I'm going to get a

1654
01:22:30,039 --> 01:22:33,399
three the next time I roll it right, And it's

1655
01:22:33,439 --> 01:22:36,399
called the gambler's fallacy. Because humans have a tendency to

1656
01:22:37,119 --> 01:22:40,920
want to easily interpret if let's say that there was

1657
01:22:41,079 --> 01:22:44,199
an event where, let's just for the sake of argument,

1658
01:22:44,239 --> 01:22:45,920
let's say the government was involved in a false flag,

1659
01:22:46,600 --> 01:22:48,119
and then you had another event where the government was

1660
01:22:48,159 --> 01:22:50,359
involved in a first false flag, and then let's say

1661
01:22:50,439 --> 01:22:53,000
and let's say it was verified. Right, because those do exist,

1662
01:22:53,159 --> 01:22:56,119
right the Gulf of ton King singing Lusitania, those are

1663
01:22:56,279 --> 01:23:00,840
known admitted false flags Northwoods operation documents. But let's say

1664
01:23:00,840 --> 01:23:04,000
another event happens and we don't yet know what's going

1665
01:23:04,079 --> 01:23:06,880
on or the details. Human nature has a tendency to

1666
01:23:07,000 --> 01:23:09,479
just assume, well, that one will also be the same

1667
01:23:09,520 --> 01:23:12,359
as these. You say, but there's no necessity necessarily to

1668
01:23:12,720 --> 01:23:16,119
that event being a false like just because.

1669
01:23:15,960 --> 01:23:19,439
Speaker 2: Because your brain is recognizing the pattern exactly. So you're like, oh,

1670
01:23:19,640 --> 01:23:22,000
there's this happened, has happened. And to his credit, he

1671
01:23:22,279 --> 01:23:24,720
has been right on quite a few things, and so

1672
01:23:24,920 --> 01:23:27,319
you're seeing these things that he that that you're right about.

1673
01:23:27,399 --> 01:23:28,920
So then this also has to be that because it

1674
01:23:28,960 --> 01:23:31,079
fits some of the similar categories. And then the sex

1675
01:23:31,119 --> 01:23:33,039
of sharpshooter fallacy is what you just kind of throw

1676
01:23:33,079 --> 01:23:36,319
out a bunch of things, something sticks and therefore you

1677
01:23:36,399 --> 01:23:38,439
think it you hit your bulls eye right, you moved?

1678
01:23:38,760 --> 01:23:40,520
Speaker 1: Is that what it is? Like you move the target

1679
01:23:40,600 --> 01:23:42,359
to site? Well, see, I got it right, but you're

1680
01:23:42,479 --> 01:23:45,880
ignoring the other you know, data that doesn't conform to it.

1681
01:23:46,159 --> 01:23:50,079
So it's selective data analysis, right to conform to what

1682
01:23:50,239 --> 01:23:51,800
you want to be the truth, the truth or what

1683
01:23:51,880 --> 01:23:52,680
you assume is the truth.

1684
01:23:52,760 --> 01:23:55,039
Speaker 2: Exactly do you think there's any correlation to just his

1685
01:23:55,279 --> 01:23:58,520
mindset of going so deep in this stuff that perhaps

1686
01:23:58,640 --> 01:24:02,560
distorted his lack of logic and reasoning abilities that got

1687
01:24:02,640 --> 01:24:05,600
him into this mess, Meaning like you're so immersed, like

1688
01:24:05,640 --> 01:24:08,800
people that are chronically online, they're so immersed into a

1689
01:24:08,840 --> 01:24:14,600
specific subgenre or specific culture, subculture, and then you're you're

1690
01:24:14,840 --> 01:24:17,119
you start losing the ability to logic and reason.

1691
01:24:18,760 --> 01:24:21,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, to a degree. Although I mean I think, you know,

1692
01:24:21,720 --> 01:24:23,560
Alex probably had other stuff going on at the time.

1693
01:24:23,600 --> 01:24:25,439
I think he was getting divorced. It wasn't very healthy.

1694
01:24:25,520 --> 01:24:27,119
There's people, Yeah, I mean, there could be all kinds

1695
01:24:27,119 --> 01:24:31,760
of things going on that partially influenced some of that.

1696
01:24:31,960 --> 01:24:36,000
But I also think the like I said, like in

1697
01:24:36,079 --> 01:24:38,520
terms of human nature, like anybody, all of us are

1698
01:24:38,560 --> 01:24:43,279
that way, Like if if somebody say, came presenting counter

1699
01:24:43,560 --> 01:24:47,359
narratives or information into orthodoxy, right, Like, my initial reaction

1700
01:24:47,560 --> 01:24:50,239
is going to be to run to all the data

1701
01:24:50,359 --> 01:24:53,560
that backs up orthodoxy. That's just how we are as humans.

1702
01:24:54,039 --> 01:24:56,680
So I think that everybody has an innate sort of

1703
01:24:56,840 --> 01:24:59,960
just aversion to their paradigm being challenged. Were all that way,

1704
01:25:00,600 --> 01:25:03,479
and if, like you said, if you are always constantly

1705
01:25:03,520 --> 01:25:06,800
studying this information from a kind of conspiracy perspective, you

1706
01:25:06,880 --> 01:25:11,439
can definitely develop tunnel vision and it could lead to

1707
01:25:11,520 --> 01:25:12,439
those types of errors.

1708
01:25:12,720 --> 01:25:15,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'm just looking up. This happened twelve

1709
01:25:15,520 --> 01:25:19,239
years ago, so he was like late thirties, so I

1710
01:25:19,640 --> 01:25:22,079
you know, like you said, all of us are susceptible

1711
01:25:22,119 --> 01:25:25,720
to it. But if you're dabbling with alcohol, going through

1712
01:25:25,760 --> 01:25:29,359
personal stuff, dealing with maybe some substance abuse issues.

1713
01:25:29,439 --> 01:25:30,479
Speaker 1: I think it was getting divorced to it.

1714
01:25:30,560 --> 01:25:33,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're going you're probably more susceptible to really slide

1715
01:25:33,600 --> 01:25:37,319
into It's just crazy if in how this flesh is out,

1716
01:25:37,359 --> 01:25:40,960
I mean, what a crazy billion dollar stupid tax in

1717
01:25:41,039 --> 01:25:43,239
a way, you know, we're like, man, that's a lot,

1718
01:25:43,760 --> 01:25:45,640
and I could understand how he can end up in

1719
01:25:45,680 --> 01:25:47,920
that situation. But that's a massive price to pay to

1720
01:25:48,000 --> 01:25:49,680
try and then figure out how to pay these people

1721
01:25:49,720 --> 01:25:50,960
and if he's going to pay them, and if he's

1722
01:25:51,000 --> 01:25:52,399
going to have to sell it or not sell, like

1723
01:25:52,760 --> 01:25:53,960
it's just just a mess.

1724
01:25:54,119 --> 01:25:55,760
Speaker 1: I mean, I think there's limits. So I think the

1725
01:25:56,199 --> 01:25:59,840
billion dollar thing was like a media it's not really that.

1726
01:26:00,399 --> 01:26:03,680
Oh there's like limits in you know, both states. You

1727
01:26:03,760 --> 01:26:06,680
know the limit it's in the millions, it's millions. Yeah,

1728
01:26:06,800 --> 01:26:08,479
So I mean, if it's in a millions, it's not

1729
01:26:08,479 --> 01:26:10,399
a billion, you could probably figure out a way to

1730
01:26:10,439 --> 01:26:15,039
pay it, right. I mean, they had auditors come in

1731
01:26:15,319 --> 01:26:18,720
and audit everything, and because there was a guy who

1732
01:26:18,760 --> 01:26:21,399
claimed that Alex had like tens of millions that are

1733
01:26:21,439 --> 01:26:24,000
stashed or something that was hidden in the company or something,

1734
01:26:24,039 --> 01:26:27,359
but they never found any of that, and so there,

1735
01:26:28,039 --> 01:26:32,039
if you don't have the money, like you're not, they

1736
01:26:32,079 --> 01:26:33,439
can't get it. Yeah, you know what I mean. There's

1737
01:26:33,439 --> 01:26:35,560
no debtors prisons in America as far as I'm aware.

1738
01:26:35,680 --> 01:26:37,960
Speaker 2: So yeah, no, that makes sense. That makes sense. So

1739
01:26:38,399 --> 01:26:42,520
our very own Zax Barazzo's brother actually saw one of

1740
01:26:42,560 --> 01:26:46,000
your videos about the Mahdi and said, you've done some

1741
01:26:46,079 --> 01:26:50,920
coverage on it. And we just covered the Madi and

1742
01:26:51,479 --> 01:26:56,439
they responded to us. His cult podcast, the official religion

1743
01:26:56,520 --> 01:27:01,720
website YouTube responded to us, and you coverage of the Madi.

1744
01:27:02,399 --> 01:27:03,279
Speaker 1: What do you make of the guy?

1745
01:27:03,960 --> 01:27:05,920
Speaker 2: You think he's a method actor, You think he's he's

1746
01:27:06,039 --> 01:27:08,039
he's sick in the head. You think he's tapping into

1747
01:27:08,119 --> 01:27:12,359
some actual demonic forces that are potentially helping him do

1748
01:27:12,439 --> 01:27:13,840
these miracles that he's alleged of doing.

1749
01:27:14,039 --> 01:27:16,039
Speaker 1: What do you make of it? It's funny you say that,

1750
01:27:16,199 --> 01:27:20,199
because the first thing I noticed was the airbrush image

1751
01:27:20,199 --> 01:27:24,720
of him, So look like DJ Khaled without any gray

1752
01:27:24,760 --> 01:27:27,600
in his It's just like he looks ten years younger

1753
01:27:27,680 --> 01:27:27,840
in that.

1754
01:27:28,319 --> 01:27:28,439
Speaker 2: Uh.

1755
01:27:29,600 --> 01:27:31,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's first of all, it's preposterous,

1756
01:27:32,119 --> 01:27:34,720
like on the surface, and then you notice it's like

1757
01:27:34,880 --> 01:27:38,359
it's like a weird He's got these icons around him

1758
01:27:38,399 --> 01:27:41,039
that look kind of Catholic, kind of worth of box.

1759
01:27:41,399 --> 01:27:43,399
And then he's got a giant bust of some dude

1760
01:27:43,439 --> 01:27:45,239
that looks like a Caesar bust but looks like a

1761
01:27:45,479 --> 01:27:49,600
like an accountant. I thought it like Phil Jackson, it

1762
01:27:49,680 --> 01:27:51,159
looks like Yeah, I was like, why do you have

1763
01:27:51,279 --> 01:27:53,079
a do you have a bust of like an accountant

1764
01:27:53,159 --> 01:27:57,119
or Phil Jackson there, so weird aesthetics going on, and

1765
01:27:57,239 --> 01:27:59,760
then like why are you wearing a beanie? And then

1766
01:27:59,760 --> 01:28:02,279
he she gave an explanation of the beanie, which I

1767
01:28:02,319 --> 01:28:04,720
thought was funny because he's connecting with the working man

1768
01:28:04,920 --> 01:28:10,920
exactly job with that gene. He's got full gens, right,

1769
01:28:11,279 --> 01:28:14,880
he's got Jean shoes over there, Jean, he's got Gene socks. Dude,

1770
01:28:16,520 --> 01:28:22,159
But uh you I mentionined Jeene socks. Did you get

1771
01:28:22,199 --> 01:28:26,359
some gene socks to say? Blessed God on it? Great?

1772
01:28:26,359 --> 01:28:31,479
Great working class right there. The other thing that was

1773
01:28:31,479 --> 01:28:33,359
weird about him, which is like all cult leaders, you

1774
01:28:33,479 --> 01:28:36,159
noticed because we did a bunch of podcasts on show

1775
01:28:36,199 --> 01:28:38,840
back in the day, and it's like they're on pills

1776
01:28:38,960 --> 01:28:41,720
or something something like he's like this and he doesn't

1777
01:28:41,760 --> 01:28:44,279
move and he's like I am the muddy and he

1778
01:28:44,359 --> 01:28:47,279
talks really slow. I found this clip of show where

1779
01:28:47,279 --> 01:28:51,439
he's talking about mine and I am drunk right now.

1780
01:28:53,239 --> 01:28:55,079
He literally says that, and like he's like with a

1781
01:28:55,159 --> 01:28:59,039
huge crowd. You think he looksicated and out of it,

1782
01:28:59,199 --> 01:29:02,359
But how about that nine foot stage where he's like

1783
01:29:05,000 --> 01:29:07,439
I noticed in cameras video t You did a really

1784
01:29:07,479 --> 01:29:10,000
good camera Britoozie when he did the breakdown of like

1785
01:29:10,119 --> 01:29:13,960
his background and the Arab Spring stuff is a huge

1786
01:29:14,000 --> 01:29:16,039
red flag because he was a mega activist in the

1787
01:29:16,119 --> 01:29:19,000
Arab Spring, which if you go into the history of

1788
01:29:19,000 --> 01:29:22,039
Air Spring, it's promoted by Western intelligence. There's a great

1789
01:29:22,079 --> 01:29:25,039
book that deals with some of that feel spectron Dominance

1790
01:29:25,319 --> 01:29:28,680
foat ing Dahl, really good book, good introduction to geopolitical

1791
01:29:28,720 --> 01:29:31,760
stuff from an academic perspective. People are interested because I

1792
01:29:31,840 --> 01:29:34,159
get asshole the time. Where should I start? That was

1793
01:29:34,159 --> 01:29:37,199
a good one start. But I think that it's also

1794
01:29:37,920 --> 01:29:42,520
a clear engineered mix of perennialism, neoplatonism all which I've

1795
01:29:42,560 --> 01:29:46,600
read and studied pretty extensively, and Shias stuff, and Shia

1796
01:29:46,800 --> 01:29:52,239
Islam is very amenable to Sufism, very close to sufism,

1797
01:29:52,239 --> 01:29:55,680
which is neoplatonism. And the advantage of neoplatonism is that

1798
01:29:55,800 --> 01:29:58,840
it's kind of a skeletal thing that allows you to

1799
01:29:59,439 --> 01:30:02,039
pick and chew use from the world religions, and that

1800
01:30:02,119 --> 01:30:04,640
way you can say, oh, look, all these world religions,

1801
01:30:04,800 --> 01:30:10,640
they're actually my superstructure neoplatonic religion, and you're all just

1802
01:30:10,760 --> 01:30:13,880
manifestations of kind of the pieces that I have as

1803
01:30:13,920 --> 01:30:16,239
the full picture, and a lot of cults do that.

1804
01:30:16,359 --> 01:30:21,520
A lot of religious movements are clever enough to latch

1805
01:30:21,560 --> 01:30:23,680
onto that. So I think it's definitely some kind of

1806
01:30:23,800 --> 01:30:29,399
op engineered whether he's fully involved or somebody else in

1807
01:30:29,439 --> 01:30:31,600
the background, I think it's very sus and I think

1808
01:30:31,600 --> 01:30:35,680
there's probably some intelligence background, especially with their their Really

1809
01:30:35,680 --> 01:30:37,560
you think you think he would be a CIA, Well,

1810
01:30:37,560 --> 01:30:39,199
I don't know a CIA, but it's very likely it

1811
01:30:39,279 --> 01:30:40,640
could be something like that. Wow.

1812
01:30:41,239 --> 01:30:43,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, the air Spring stuff was weird. We talked

1813
01:30:43,319 --> 01:30:45,119
about that a bit too. That's a that's a tail sign.

1814
01:30:45,159 --> 01:30:47,920
Speaker 1: It's something something's going on, something in the background. Yeah,

1815
01:30:48,079 --> 01:30:48,359
And so.

1816
01:30:51,079 --> 01:30:54,960
Speaker 2: What would be the would okay, would the intelligence connection

1817
01:30:55,079 --> 01:30:57,159
be correlation of causation to what he's doing?

1818
01:30:57,239 --> 01:31:02,880
Speaker 1: Now, again just just going on gut analysis. Spending a

1819
01:31:02,880 --> 01:31:05,119
lot of time studying cults and religions and the overlap

1820
01:31:05,199 --> 01:31:07,079
with intelligence stuff, because they have a lot of interest

1821
01:31:07,159 --> 01:31:11,079
in cults and religions. In fact, I might even write

1822
01:31:11,079 --> 01:31:14,840
my next book on religion and intelligence. We've done a

1823
01:31:14,840 --> 01:31:16,479
lot of lectures in the last few years on that

1824
01:31:16,640 --> 01:31:19,880
specific subject matter because very few people go into that.

1825
01:31:20,439 --> 01:31:24,359
People don't know that the state has a vested interest

1826
01:31:24,560 --> 01:31:28,399
in wanting to make churches forms of what's called soft power,

1827
01:31:29,279 --> 01:31:31,920
and soft power is a way to, if you're the state,

1828
01:31:32,039 --> 01:31:34,560
or if you're a superpower, to extend your influence in

1829
01:31:34,640 --> 01:31:38,680
other cultures through non kinetic warfare. So you're doing it

1830
01:31:38,840 --> 01:31:41,399
not with guns and tanks, per se, but with culture.

1831
01:31:42,279 --> 01:31:46,279
Hollywood has been a very powerful engine of Western soft power.

1832
01:31:47,079 --> 01:31:49,680
You know, I mentioned writing about James Bond and the

1833
01:31:49,760 --> 01:31:53,560
Cold War. Bond was a form of projecting Western soft

1834
01:31:53,640 --> 01:31:55,640
power to other nations in the Cold War. Right, so

1835
01:31:55,680 --> 01:31:57,840
you've got these Soviets, they're tyrannical, they want to lock

1836
01:31:57,920 --> 01:32:02,640
you down. James Bond represents you know, Eastern masculinity, capitalism,

1837
01:32:02,920 --> 01:32:05,039
you know, free love, you know all these kinds of

1838
01:32:05,079 --> 01:32:09,159
things that Bond is supposed to represent. So likewise, intelligence

1839
01:32:09,199 --> 01:32:11,560
agencies are very interested and have always been interested in

1840
01:32:11,680 --> 01:32:14,600
cults and religions. Curly was a spy, as we said,

1841
01:32:15,840 --> 01:32:18,720
many many new Agers, Madame Bilvatski, there's really good she's

1842
01:32:18,800 --> 01:32:20,680
the mother of all the New Age movements. There's a

1843
01:32:20,720 --> 01:32:22,600
lot of good evidence to suggest that she was also

1844
01:32:22,640 --> 01:32:24,960
a spy. She worked with a KGB one of her

1845
01:32:25,000 --> 01:32:29,439
handlers was actually a KGB guy, So I think that

1846
01:32:29,760 --> 01:32:32,920
it's very possible. It's very likely. I don't know for sure,

1847
01:32:33,640 --> 01:32:38,000
but the Arab Spring activism definitely suggests a possibility there.

1848
01:32:39,960 --> 01:32:43,119
There have been a lot of connections between the CIA

1849
01:32:43,239 --> 01:32:45,960
that not many people know about, and like Shia and

1850
01:32:46,079 --> 01:32:49,760
Sufi movements. CIA's made a lot of contacts with Shia movements.

1851
01:32:50,079 --> 01:32:53,039
You can look into the history of the Nashkebondi and

1852
01:32:53,560 --> 01:32:56,479
they were relevant because they were involved in drug trafficking.

1853
01:32:56,880 --> 01:32:59,119
I'm not saying that this dude is connected to the

1854
01:32:59,199 --> 01:33:00,880
Naskebondi these orders.

1855
01:33:00,760 --> 01:33:00,840
Speaker 2: But.

1856
01:33:02,840 --> 01:33:05,720
Speaker 1: In the situation like the Cold War, a lot of

1857
01:33:05,800 --> 01:33:10,479
times the Western intelligence operatives found it beneficial to make

1858
01:33:10,520 --> 01:33:14,960
alliances with Muslims for the purpose of fighting Soviets so

1859
01:33:15,079 --> 01:33:18,079
like the most famous example is nineteen seventy nine Soviet

1860
01:33:18,159 --> 01:33:22,800
conflict where Brazenski and Carter Robert Gates they all openly

1861
01:33:22,840 --> 01:33:26,720
wrote about and strategized to use al Qaeda against the Soviets,

1862
01:33:26,800 --> 01:33:28,399
and so they armed them, they funded them. Is called

1863
01:33:28,399 --> 01:33:33,000
Operations cyclone, well known s declassified. In fact, Max Blumenthal

1864
01:33:33,039 --> 01:33:35,359
wrote a really good recent book on this subject matter

1865
01:33:35,520 --> 01:33:37,840
called I'm not paid to promote aybody, I just have

1866
01:33:37,960 --> 01:33:40,800
these with me. So his book's really good management of savager,

1867
01:33:40,840 --> 01:33:44,479
which is Western support for certain Islamic sex huh. And

1868
01:33:44,560 --> 01:33:48,159
that can be Sunni sometimes Shia, and even can be

1869
01:33:48,319 --> 01:33:50,720
cults and weird groups like we're talking about with this

1870
01:33:50,800 --> 01:33:54,159
guy now, not proven, just my assessment.

1871
01:33:53,880 --> 01:33:55,600
Speaker 2: Just based on your gut and just kind of understanding

1872
01:33:55,640 --> 01:33:56,680
some of the background.

1873
01:33:56,359 --> 01:33:57,880
Speaker 1: The way that a lot of this stuff usually works.

1874
01:33:58,119 --> 01:34:02,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then they kind of putting him in motion

1875
01:34:03,560 --> 01:34:05,640
and or do you think they're still currently supporting him

1876
01:34:05,640 --> 01:34:06,520
in some way, shape or form.

1877
01:34:06,600 --> 01:34:08,840
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I'm just just looking at

1878
01:34:08,920 --> 01:34:11,680
the background and the red flags that usually pop up

1879
01:34:11,760 --> 01:34:15,640
with these kinds of mouthpieces for this kind of stuff.

1880
01:34:16,199 --> 01:34:18,159
I mean, I don't think every cult is run by

1881
01:34:18,159 --> 01:34:21,479
a spy agency, but you'll notice certain red flags that

1882
01:34:21,560 --> 01:34:27,640
pop up where there's a likelihood of that, Like Scientology.

1883
01:34:27,720 --> 01:34:29,520
I don't you know, I don't want to get you

1884
01:34:29,600 --> 01:34:33,159
in legal trouble with Scientology, but like they have a

1885
01:34:33,239 --> 01:34:38,159
long time connection with For example, Russia and other countries

1886
01:34:38,279 --> 01:34:44,640
have banned Scientology and Joe's Witnesses because they're pretty well

1887
01:34:44,720 --> 01:34:49,920
known covers for espionage really Joevay's witnesses and Mormons. Wow,

1888
01:34:50,399 --> 01:34:53,560
what it's well known? Yeah, that's crazy. What is the

1889
01:34:54,000 --> 01:34:54,600
how well known?

1890
01:34:54,640 --> 01:34:57,399
Speaker 2: And what is the what is the evidence what Russia

1891
01:34:57,399 --> 01:34:59,960
openly says because these are they say, but I mean,

1892
01:35:00,079 --> 01:35:02,560
like what evidence do they have to like verify that?

1893
01:35:02,880 --> 01:35:04,840
Speaker 1: Well, that's when you'd have to go into like a

1894
01:35:04,880 --> 01:35:08,239
lot of spy biographies and like histories of espionage and

1895
01:35:09,600 --> 01:35:14,199
connections that did Western intelligence agencies have had, not just

1896
01:35:14,319 --> 01:35:18,319
with like certain groups of Islam, but with religion in general.

1897
01:35:18,399 --> 01:35:19,840
I mean, if you think about it from the vanage

1898
01:35:19,880 --> 01:35:23,439
point of the state, like you want to be using

1899
01:35:23,640 --> 01:35:26,520
any means that you have at your disposal, and so

1900
01:35:26,840 --> 01:35:30,399
if you've got already made bunch of people who are

1901
01:35:30,479 --> 01:35:35,199
activists or missionaries, missionaries a classic spy cover, not saying

1902
01:35:35,199 --> 01:35:37,720
all missionaries are spies, it's just a classic I mean

1903
01:35:37,840 --> 01:35:43,560
usaid red Cross. These are classic covers for various types

1904
01:35:43,560 --> 01:35:46,119
of espionage activity. For example, I just did a shared

1905
01:35:46,119 --> 01:35:49,760
an old article that's on the CIA website covered Action

1906
01:35:49,880 --> 01:35:52,720
magazine from nineteen eighty three from the CIA is on

1907
01:35:53,039 --> 01:35:59,079
website an article about CI support for one of the

1908
01:35:59,159 --> 01:36:05,680
evangelical dictators in Latin South America montt. So people are interested,

1909
01:36:05,720 --> 01:36:07,640
you can go read on my wall that it should

1910
01:36:07,680 --> 01:36:09,600
be pretty high album on my wall. But that's one

1911
01:36:09,680 --> 01:36:13,920
example of just one during the Cold War where the

1912
01:36:13,960 --> 01:36:15,720
CIA reached out to this guy and said, we want

1913
01:36:15,760 --> 01:36:18,000
you on board. We're going to raise money for you

1914
01:36:18,199 --> 01:36:21,079
with Jerry Falwell Billy Graham, and so the evangelicals raised

1915
01:36:21,079 --> 01:36:26,399
a lot of money to support this evangelical supposed dictator

1916
01:36:26,680 --> 01:36:31,079
Latin South America Mont. So that's one case that's admitted.

1917
01:36:31,199 --> 01:36:33,800
But if you want a book on this, I did

1918
01:36:33,840 --> 01:36:38,119
a talk from an academic text from University of Florida.

1919
01:36:38,920 --> 01:36:41,960
His name is Michael Graziano, and he wrote a thesis

1920
01:36:42,720 --> 01:36:47,119
that was published called Errand into the Wilderness History of

1921
01:36:47,199 --> 01:36:50,319
the CIA in Religion. That whole book is about the

1922
01:36:50,600 --> 01:36:54,399
agency's attitude towards religious movements, particularly in the cult, but

1923
01:36:54,520 --> 01:36:57,159
not exclusively, because there's also a chapter then about Iran

1924
01:36:57,319 --> 01:37:02,560
and Shia Islam. And it's a natural posture. People don't

1925
01:37:02,560 --> 01:37:04,119
know about it, but it's a natural posture for the

1926
01:37:04,159 --> 01:37:06,960
state to take to try to make alliances with various

1927
01:37:07,000 --> 01:37:09,760
religious movements interesting. And we give you one examp more example.

1928
01:37:09,840 --> 01:37:12,159
That's a declassified. That's proof of this. It's called the

1929
01:37:12,279 --> 01:37:17,000
Doctrinal Warfare Program. A very famous Catholic named David Wimhoff

1930
01:37:17,039 --> 01:37:19,079
wrote a giant, eight hundred page book on it. It's

1931
01:37:19,159 --> 01:37:22,359
really good. It's called Time Life Magazine. John Courtney Murray

1932
01:37:22,399 --> 01:37:24,079
in the American proposition, it's the name of the book,

1933
01:37:24,560 --> 01:37:28,039
and it's about the two tenty thirteen do you classified document?

1934
01:37:28,520 --> 01:37:31,439
The Doctrinal Warfare Program, which the CI set up under

1935
01:37:31,479 --> 01:37:37,279
people like CD Jackson to recruit as many Roman Catholic theologians,

1936
01:37:37,319 --> 01:37:40,279
scholars and prelates as they could. And we don't know

1937
01:37:40,319 --> 01:37:41,760
all of them, but we know that John Courtney Murray,

1938
01:37:41,800 --> 01:37:44,560
the famous Jesuit americanist philosopher, was in it. We know

1939
01:37:44,680 --> 01:37:47,279
that to some degree the head Cardinal Spelman involved. But

1940
01:37:47,399 --> 01:37:49,279
the idea was that it's a Cold war. We got

1941
01:37:49,319 --> 01:37:51,520
to do whatever we can, So you're going to work

1942
01:37:51,560 --> 01:37:54,960
with us at every capacity that we need you to

1943
01:37:55,079 --> 01:37:57,319
help beat the Soviets in the Cold War. The problem,

1944
01:37:57,399 --> 01:38:00,840
and I agree that like Soviets are bad guys. I'm

1945
01:38:00,840 --> 01:38:03,600
not pro communists, but the problem is that now you've

1946
01:38:03,640 --> 01:38:07,600
made this alliance with the intelligence agencies, now they have

1947
01:38:07,680 --> 01:38:10,000
a lot of leverage with you, and if you look

1948
01:38:10,039 --> 01:38:12,840
into Operation Gladio, another declassified thing that ties into the

1949
01:38:12,880 --> 01:38:15,560
Vatican Bank, that helps to explain a lot of this

1950
01:38:15,640 --> 01:38:15,960
as well.

1951
01:38:16,479 --> 01:38:18,439
Speaker 2: I'm sure this goes the other way too, though. Like

1952
01:38:18,520 --> 01:38:22,159
we just recently saw the big scandal with there was

1953
01:38:22,239 --> 01:38:25,640
a company that was hiring the likes. I think the

1954
01:38:25,720 --> 01:38:29,199
most prominent name I remember was Tim Poole to for

1955
01:38:29,479 --> 01:38:33,960
Russia these crazy videos. They're getting paid outlandish amounts to

1956
01:38:34,079 --> 01:38:38,920
kind of make this like soft Russian esque propaganda videos.

1957
01:38:38,920 --> 01:38:41,439
And this happened hugely within the conservative sphere as well.

1958
01:38:41,880 --> 01:38:43,399
Speaker 1: Well. I know Tim, and I know Tim has always

1959
01:38:43,439 --> 01:38:45,159
been cool to me. He's always had me on and

1960
01:38:45,239 --> 01:38:48,840
been very positive. I don't think that I never detected

1961
01:38:49,000 --> 01:38:51,880
like that Tim wants to push Russian propaganda. So I

1962
01:38:51,880 --> 01:38:53,840
think what happens in these kinds of situations is that

1963
01:38:54,880 --> 01:38:58,840
an entity with money and donors reaches out and says,

1964
01:38:58,920 --> 01:39:01,319
we want to support your media group, will give you

1965
01:39:01,319 --> 01:39:04,199
a ten million dollars. I don't know the background of

1966
01:39:04,239 --> 01:39:07,000
that situation, but I'd seriously doubt that Tim would be

1967
01:39:07,079 --> 01:39:08,880
He's pretty media savvy. I doubt he would be.

1968
01:39:10,239 --> 01:39:12,439
Speaker 2: It was a third I think it was directly to Tim.

1969
01:39:12,520 --> 01:39:15,039
There was a couple that was running some sort of agency,

1970
01:39:15,560 --> 01:39:18,319
and this couple was being paid they i think were

1971
01:39:18,439 --> 01:39:21,760
verified to be Russian spies or somehow connected, and they

1972
01:39:21,800 --> 01:39:27,520
were going out and hiring conservative influencers, speakers and giving

1973
01:39:27,560 --> 01:39:31,600
them pretty crazy amounts of money for very low performing video.

1974
01:39:31,720 --> 01:39:36,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm not trying to deny that basically all countries

1975
01:39:36,680 --> 01:39:38,840
do this. Yes, I'm not saying it's good, but I'm

1976
01:39:38,880 --> 01:39:43,199
saying like China has, you know, people that they influence

1977
01:39:43,279 --> 01:39:46,840
with money and media and operatives, Russia has people. Every

1978
01:39:46,880 --> 01:39:49,520
country essentially does this to some degree with if they

1979
01:39:49,560 --> 01:39:51,760
have the capability to do so. So this is just

1980
01:39:51,960 --> 01:39:52,520
what happens.

1981
01:39:52,680 --> 01:39:56,319
Speaker 2: Would you would you feel comfortable putting Tucker's tour of

1982
01:39:56,399 --> 01:39:59,359
a Russian grocery store in a similar category. He's there,

1983
01:39:59,439 --> 01:40:01,119
he's surprised, you know, he has seen this video.

1984
01:40:01,279 --> 01:40:04,479
Speaker 1: He's like, they have bread, they got this, they got this,

1985
01:40:04,640 --> 01:40:07,000
and it's like it's just like it just seems like

1986
01:40:07,039 --> 01:40:10,439
straight rush. Yeah my Tucker left. Yeah, yeah, he does that.

1987
01:40:10,520 --> 01:40:12,039
He's like, oh they got bread, they got this, they

1988
01:40:12,119 --> 01:40:13,760
got that, and and it was like what are you, Like,

1989
01:40:13,840 --> 01:40:14,640
what are you doing? Dude?

1990
01:40:14,720 --> 01:40:17,800
Speaker 2: Like why are you in Russia grocery shopping to show

1991
01:40:17,840 --> 01:40:21,159
them that they have a like better produced than America

1992
01:40:21,199 --> 01:40:21,840
and it's cheaper.

1993
01:40:22,600 --> 01:40:24,680
Speaker 1: I love Tucker, so I don't. I don't think that

1994
01:40:24,760 --> 01:40:27,640
he's a Russian operative or anything like that. I think

1995
01:40:27,720 --> 01:40:31,800
he at least seeks to in these situations try to

1996
01:40:31,840 --> 01:40:34,479
get both sides. I thought his Putin interview was pretty good.

1997
01:40:35,399 --> 01:40:37,880
I thought he asked really good questions. I don't think

1998
01:40:37,920 --> 01:40:39,640
it was any kind of like softball thing. I think

1999
01:40:39,680 --> 01:40:45,960
it was a real valid interview. Putin's spent a lot

2000
01:40:46,079 --> 01:40:49,640
of time giving this history that was it was like

2001
01:40:49,680 --> 01:40:54,439
a history a history chorus. Right, yeah, but I don't

2002
01:40:54,479 --> 01:40:56,359
I didn't see the grocery store thing, so I'm not

2003
01:40:56,399 --> 01:40:56,880
familiar with that.

2004
01:40:57,119 --> 01:41:00,039
Speaker 2: It's pretty funny, Okay, it's just like come on, But

2005
01:41:00,279 --> 01:41:03,159
I actually I didn't mind the Putin interviewing. I was like, oh,

2006
01:41:03,239 --> 01:41:05,960
this is interesting, you know, to try to steal man

2007
01:41:06,479 --> 01:41:08,880
their paradigm of how they view Ukraine and why they

2008
01:41:08,960 --> 01:41:10,720
view it as a part. Right, it was like, okay,

2009
01:41:10,760 --> 01:41:12,319
this is good. But when I saw him shopping in

2010
01:41:12,399 --> 01:41:14,439
the grocery, my dad, I don't know if you know

2011
01:41:14,520 --> 01:41:16,000
how much about my background I grew up in the

2012
01:41:16,079 --> 01:41:21,000
Soviet Union, So I was a Sarbajohn Armenian growing up

2013
01:41:21,000 --> 01:41:24,079
in Azarbaijohn. The Soviets completely let that whole situation go

2014
01:41:24,199 --> 01:41:29,520
to hell, massive ethnic cleansing of Armenians from and then

2015
01:41:30,000 --> 01:41:33,840
we came to America. My dad was he's like a

2016
01:41:34,119 --> 01:41:35,680
he was working at a restaurant, but he's also kind

2017
01:41:35,680 --> 01:41:38,079
of a bootlegger getting products from all over. Anyway, when

2018
01:41:38,119 --> 01:41:40,960
we came to America, he my mom and my dad's

2019
01:41:40,960 --> 01:41:42,880
played but he still had a business and still has

2020
01:41:42,960 --> 01:41:46,920
some form of businesses back in Russia today. And so

2021
01:41:47,399 --> 01:41:51,800
hearing his perspective today and he's not like he's not

2022
01:41:51,880 --> 01:41:53,800
a crazy leftist and he's not a far right guy,

2023
01:41:53,800 --> 01:41:57,000
and he's just like a yeah, Soviet Union was like

2024
01:41:57,079 --> 01:41:59,359
it was all right. Russia now really bad and the

2025
01:41:59,399 --> 01:42:01,039
stuff that they have going on. So like hearing his

2026
01:42:01,119 --> 01:42:04,000
perspective and how he's had to manage and navigate dealing

2027
01:42:04,119 --> 01:42:08,079
with Russia today is like, dude, no, like this is

2028
01:42:08,279 --> 01:42:09,039
it's not good.

2029
01:42:09,239 --> 01:42:10,760
Speaker 1: I had a friend that moved there and took his

2030
01:42:10,840 --> 01:42:13,079
family there and they lived there for about a year,

2031
01:42:13,760 --> 01:42:17,319
and they were wanted to try out like living out

2032
01:42:17,359 --> 01:42:20,039
in the country, like the good ways outside in Moscow,

2033
01:42:21,800 --> 01:42:24,880
and he said it was the worst part was that

2034
01:42:25,880 --> 01:42:28,039
he did think there were a lot of people who

2035
01:42:28,119 --> 01:42:30,920
were serious about their Orthodox Christianity. But the problem was

2036
01:42:30,960 --> 01:42:34,279
that there's still a lot of the bureaucratic holdover from

2037
01:42:34,359 --> 01:42:37,600
the Soviet period, so like getting simple things done is

2038
01:42:37,640 --> 01:42:40,960
a huge ordeal because of all the paperwork and bureaucracy.

2039
01:42:41,079 --> 01:42:44,000
And so they ended up moving back, I think because

2040
01:42:44,920 --> 01:42:47,680
it was around the time that Putin said, like anybody

2041
01:42:47,720 --> 01:42:50,359
who like, if you're from the West, you have to

2042
01:42:50,439 --> 01:42:53,880
go back because of the war starting. So he was

2043
01:42:53,920 --> 01:42:54,600
forced to come.

2044
01:42:54,479 --> 01:43:00,840
Speaker 2: Back, probably in his best interest. Interesting, Okay, Yeah, I

2045
01:43:00,920 --> 01:43:06,680
always thought that the ability of governments to influence people

2046
01:43:06,800 --> 01:43:09,680
and used in social media and soft powers is always

2047
01:43:09,760 --> 01:43:10,319
very fascinating.

2048
01:43:10,319 --> 01:43:12,800
Speaker 1: So there's a great story. There's a movie called Spy

2049
01:43:13,359 --> 01:43:16,680
and it highlights like everything that we're talking about. It's

2050
01:43:16,720 --> 01:43:21,239
about this Nordic I think she was Swedish. She's the

2051
01:43:21,279 --> 01:43:25,039
most famous Swedish actress in the forties and fifties. Her

2052
01:43:25,079 --> 01:43:28,159
name was Sonjo Wiegert. And there's a movie they made

2053
01:43:28,159 --> 01:43:31,840
about her called Spy. Everybody should watch it because she

2054
01:43:32,000 --> 01:43:38,000
gets basically compromised and forced by her government to sleep

2055
01:43:38,079 --> 01:43:42,039
with the tiny mustache man high command and they had

2056
01:43:42,079 --> 01:43:46,000
her father arrested and so they forced her to do it.

2057
01:43:46,039 --> 01:43:47,359
They were like, we're not going to release your father

2058
01:43:47,479 --> 01:43:50,680
unless you sleep with these people. And so it ruined

2059
01:43:50,680 --> 01:43:53,560
her career because everybody thought she was a trader for

2060
01:43:53,880 --> 01:43:57,119
tiny mustage man, right, but she was forced into it

2061
01:43:57,279 --> 01:43:59,439
for her dad. So it shows the complexity of these

2062
01:43:59,560 --> 01:44:02,680
kinds of situations of like, it's not really good guy,

2063
01:44:02,720 --> 01:44:04,640
but it's just power struggles. It's not a good guy

2064
01:44:04,720 --> 01:44:07,119
bad guy. I'm not again, like I'm not for tiny

2065
01:44:07,159 --> 01:44:10,720
mustas man, I'm not for Soviet communism at all. But

2066
01:44:11,399 --> 01:44:14,720
you can have problems every way and it's really complex. Yeah,

2067
01:44:14,880 --> 01:44:15,239
for sure.

2068
01:44:15,359 --> 01:44:17,000
Speaker 2: Can you put your mic down a little bit so

2069
01:44:17,079 --> 01:44:20,720
that we can your faces lookut off? Okay, for sure.

2070
01:44:20,800 --> 01:44:24,399
So tell me a bit about I think a lot

2071
01:44:24,479 --> 01:44:27,880
of people know you for your debate stuff. Tell me

2072
01:44:27,960 --> 01:44:32,000
a bit about, like what are the orthor Bros. What

2073
01:44:32,159 --> 01:44:35,479
is this Eastern Orthodox community that's online, and what do

2074
01:44:35,560 --> 01:44:38,000
you make of it in the broader sense, right, because

2075
01:44:38,000 --> 01:44:42,840
there seems to be some people that love the world

2076
01:44:43,199 --> 01:44:46,079
of I guess Orthobros. I think it's meant this a

2077
01:44:46,119 --> 01:44:50,960
derogatory term, and then there's like we're more enlightened with

2078
01:44:51,079 --> 01:44:54,319
our approach of our faith. Is that a clear distinction?

2079
01:44:54,479 --> 01:44:55,560
Do you think that that's a fair now?

2080
01:44:55,880 --> 01:44:58,520
Speaker 1: Well, it's so it's like a thing that wasn't planned.

2081
01:44:58,600 --> 01:45:02,600
It was you know, in I want to say twenty sixteen,

2082
01:45:02,840 --> 01:45:05,279
I got asked to do a debate with a libertarian atheist.

2083
01:45:05,479 --> 01:45:07,720
So I debated Adam Kocash. It was like the first

2084
01:45:07,800 --> 01:45:10,520
online debate, and there's a bunch of libertarian guys that

2085
01:45:10,600 --> 01:45:12,800
hosted it and were the moderators. And then that led to,

2086
01:45:13,119 --> 01:45:15,439
you know, hey, why don't you debate this atheist guy

2087
01:45:15,479 --> 01:45:17,920
over here? And so I was doing a lot of

2088
01:45:18,079 --> 01:45:20,720
blood sport debates back in twenty seventeen with Andy Worski

2089
01:45:20,840 --> 01:45:24,640
on YouTube, and those were kind of unmoderated, halfway moderated,

2090
01:45:24,720 --> 01:45:28,960
just kind of on the cuff, and this sort of

2091
01:45:29,399 --> 01:45:32,720
kicked off a debate culture, I guess you could say,

2092
01:45:32,720 --> 01:45:35,439
on YouTube, which kind of was there with some of

2093
01:45:35,520 --> 01:45:38,039
the new atheists back in the two thousand and late

2094
01:45:38,079 --> 01:45:40,319
two thousands, who you know, TJ. Kirk and these kinds

2095
01:45:40,319 --> 01:45:43,199
of people who were kind of doing debates, but it

2096
01:45:43,279 --> 01:45:45,800
started really ramping up twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, so we

2097
01:45:45,840 --> 01:45:48,239
had a lot of huge name people coming in start

2098
01:45:48,279 --> 01:45:52,840
doing debates, and then that turned into I had a

2099
01:45:52,920 --> 01:45:55,359
couple of friends, one of whom was interested in Islam

2100
01:45:55,439 --> 01:45:58,239
but ended up being Christian, and another guy who was

2101
01:45:58,279 --> 01:46:01,479
atheist but became worth at all. They started a channel

2102
01:46:01,479 --> 01:46:06,000
called Orthodox Shahta, which is geared towards opposing Islamic arguments.

2103
01:46:06,640 --> 01:46:08,880
So they were trying to get me, Hey, why don't

2104
01:46:08,880 --> 01:46:11,520
you start debating Muslims. I don't know anything about Islam

2105
01:46:11,640 --> 01:46:13,920
other than like I'd read geopolitical stuff, but I didn't

2106
01:46:13,960 --> 01:46:17,600
know the religion. And so twenty seventeen we started doing

2107
01:46:17,640 --> 01:46:19,520
a lot of Muslim debates, and then we got more

2108
01:46:19,560 --> 01:46:21,880
of those twenty eighteen, and then we started debating the

2109
01:46:21,960 --> 01:46:24,439
sort of big name Muslim people. Right, it is all virtual,

2110
01:46:24,680 --> 01:46:28,239
primarily all online. All right, Yeah, it's snowball. There was

2111
01:46:28,279 --> 01:46:31,560
like an organic, just sort of growing, snowballing thing that

2112
01:46:32,399 --> 01:46:36,720
attracted a lot of young people watching these things from

2113
01:46:37,359 --> 01:46:41,399
YouTube and other outlets Twitter, et cetera to start inquiring

2114
01:46:41,399 --> 01:46:44,279
at orthodoxy. Right, So this this kicked off twenty seventeen

2115
01:46:45,000 --> 01:46:48,199
and there have just been waves of people being interested

2116
01:46:48,199 --> 01:46:51,760
in Orthodoxy since then, and is around twenty seventeen when

2117
01:46:51,800 --> 01:46:54,760
father Deacon doctor Ernis a good buddy of mine, it

2118
01:46:54,880 --> 01:46:58,279
was actually out here from Anaheim. He made a joke

2119
01:46:58,319 --> 01:46:59,600
one day, he was like, Hey, I'm out here with

2120
01:46:59,640 --> 01:47:01,960
the orth Thobros, and it was just him and just

2121
01:47:02,119 --> 01:47:05,640
stuck and it stuck. But then, so then what happened

2122
01:47:05,840 --> 01:47:09,840
was mainstream media outlets and like they started doing hit pieces, right,

2123
01:47:09,960 --> 01:47:12,079
So there was a couple outlets that wrote hit pieces

2124
01:47:12,479 --> 01:47:16,000
saying that it was like this evil online cult and movement,

2125
01:47:17,239 --> 01:47:20,600
which is weird because they were arguing this is right

2126
01:47:20,640 --> 01:47:24,399
around the time COVID starts. Right, so about half the

2127
01:47:24,520 --> 01:47:28,359
Orthodox world and churches shut down and we're doing online

2128
01:47:28,680 --> 01:47:32,039
in each churchy way, there were Orthodox churches doing each church. Yeah,

2129
01:47:32,479 --> 01:47:34,520
by half of I would say about half the orthox.

2130
01:47:34,880 --> 01:47:38,640
I honestly thought that was only a no no Roman

2131
01:47:38,680 --> 01:47:41,159
Catholic and I would say in the Orthodox world was

2132
01:47:41,159 --> 01:47:43,159
split totally unrelated.

2133
01:47:43,239 --> 01:47:45,680
Speaker 2: I saw a video today of Saddleback Church, which is

2134
01:47:45,720 --> 01:47:48,960
one of the biggest megachurches, a video an instructional video

2135
01:47:49,039 --> 01:47:50,359
on how to self baptize yourself.

2136
01:47:50,920 --> 01:47:52,640
Speaker 1: Somebody said somebody sent me that.

2137
01:47:52,800 --> 01:47:56,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I legit thought that the Orthodox were just like, nah,

2138
01:47:57,079 --> 01:47:57,960
we're not shutting down.

2139
01:47:58,000 --> 01:48:00,399
Speaker 1: Like I thought that was it, okay, I mean, and

2140
01:48:00,479 --> 01:48:03,079
it was really just like it just depended on like

2141
01:48:03,119 --> 01:48:05,239
the bishop, sure, right, because it was actually centralized, so

2142
01:48:05,279 --> 01:48:09,039
it's just a bishop. There's no pope or anything. So

2143
01:48:09,239 --> 01:48:13,079
but when that happened, what it was a weird situation where, uh,

2144
01:48:14,720 --> 01:48:16,199
there are a lot of the people who were opposed

2145
01:48:16,239 --> 01:48:20,479
to me doing apologetics and debates online. They started saying, oh,

2146
01:48:20,640 --> 01:48:23,600
he's just creating an internet church, which was weird because

2147
01:48:23,920 --> 01:48:25,960
always from the very get go we said you have

2148
01:48:26,119 --> 01:48:28,199
to be involved in the local church, like you can't.

2149
01:48:28,520 --> 01:48:30,600
There's not such a saying as internet Orthodox doesn't exist.

2150
01:48:31,479 --> 01:48:33,880
So it was a really weird hypocritical stance for the

2151
01:48:33,920 --> 01:48:35,720
people who are pushing for the shutting down the churches,

2152
01:48:35,720 --> 01:48:40,640
which we always opposed, even during the entirety of kouf. Uh. Yeah,

2153
01:48:41,800 --> 01:48:43,560
I'm still used to I still use the code from

2154
01:48:43,600 --> 01:48:47,159
twenty twenty dude, like the coup, right, the coup crisis.

2155
01:48:49,159 --> 01:48:50,520
But we were the ones that were always telling me, no,

2156
01:48:50,560 --> 01:48:51,800
you have to go to church, and like the people

2157
01:48:51,800 --> 01:48:53,880
who attacking me s it's online. Colt are saying, Oh, no,

2158
01:48:54,560 --> 01:48:56,960
he has an ecult. But by the way, don't go

2159
01:48:57,039 --> 01:48:59,760
to church and watch it online. It was just nonsense anyway.

2160
01:49:01,159 --> 01:49:02,680
Speaker 2: And you're and just to be clear, you've said this

2161
01:49:02,800 --> 01:49:06,119
offline to me, you said that, how did you describe it?

2162
01:49:06,159 --> 01:49:08,479
So you're not an Orthodox streamer. You're not an Eastern

2163
01:49:08,560 --> 01:49:12,920
Orthodox streamer. You're a streamer, creator and author who's Orthodox,

2164
01:49:13,000 --> 01:49:16,880
which I think is a fair distinction to make in

2165
01:49:17,000 --> 01:49:20,039
terms of your contribution with your books and all the

2166
01:49:20,039 --> 01:49:22,159
other stuff you've done, but also just your own temperament

2167
01:49:22,199 --> 01:49:24,199
and how you're probably engaging in these conversations where you're

2168
01:49:24,560 --> 01:49:26,800
it doesn't sound like you're trying to be the poster

2169
01:49:27,000 --> 01:49:28,680
child for Eastern Orthodoxy.

2170
01:49:28,760 --> 01:49:31,520
Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. Like all this stuff happened like inadvertently,

2171
01:49:32,000 --> 01:49:35,319
I started a discord that was just for my stuff

2172
01:49:36,199 --> 01:49:39,319
and that organically grew into like a giant I mean

2173
01:49:39,399 --> 01:49:43,279
giant for discord, like twelve thousand people who are Orthodox community, right,

2174
01:49:43,319 --> 01:49:47,359
So it's the largest Orthodox discord. Now, how active are

2175
01:49:47,399 --> 01:49:49,359
you on that thing? I'm only in there, in and out.

2176
01:49:49,640 --> 01:49:51,520
Speaker 2: So we think about shutting down our discord because we're

2177
01:49:51,640 --> 01:49:52,159
seldom on it.

2178
01:49:52,319 --> 01:49:54,239
Speaker 1: I can't keep up with it, like it's too much work.

2179
01:49:54,279 --> 01:49:56,399
But there's a lot of good dudes the clergy now

2180
01:49:56,439 --> 01:49:58,560
to run it. So I gave it off to Clergy's

2181
01:49:58,560 --> 01:50:00,760
cool and so like the way orthodox it works, like

2182
01:50:00,840 --> 01:50:05,640
you you've got to have oversight, right, and there are

2183
01:50:06,119 --> 01:50:09,479
now there's plenty of priests and people out there, the

2184
01:50:09,520 --> 01:50:11,600
people that are friends of ours, like Father Moses McPherson.

2185
01:50:11,640 --> 01:50:15,039
His channel's blown up. You've got Father Josiah. You've got

2186
01:50:15,119 --> 01:50:18,479
plenty of people who are priests doing content now, but

2187
01:50:18,560 --> 01:50:21,000
that didn't exist in twenty seventeen eighteen. There's like maybe two.

2188
01:50:20,880 --> 01:50:24,119
Speaker 2: People, right, it's cool to see clergy online, Yeah, regardless

2189
01:50:24,239 --> 01:50:25,560
of the stream, Like I think it's I think it's

2190
01:50:25,600 --> 01:50:26,159
the more the better.

2191
01:50:26,199 --> 01:50:29,039
Speaker 1: In my opinion, I would rather them shudle that stuff. Sure,

2192
01:50:29,039 --> 01:50:31,199
I don't mind, like like I don't mind doing an

2193
01:50:31,239 --> 01:50:33,520
atheist debate or a Muslim debate, but like when it

2194
01:50:33,600 --> 01:50:37,239
comes to giving spiritual advice or you know, counseling, I

2195
01:50:37,279 --> 01:50:39,039
don't do any of that, Like that's not my role.

2196
01:50:39,279 --> 01:50:43,159
Speaker 2: Why wait until this entire thing premieres on YouTube? Why

2197
01:50:43,279 --> 01:50:47,279
not sign up for a free seven day trial of

2198
01:50:47,359 --> 01:50:51,560
our Patreon community and see this entire interview as well

2199
01:50:51,600 --> 01:50:55,039
as all of our interviews early before they hit the public.

2200
01:50:55,279 --> 01:50:58,520
And you'll also get access to the extended version of

2201
01:50:58,600 --> 01:51:02,560
our conversations that are sometimes a little too spicy for YouTube.

2202
01:51:02,600 --> 01:51:04,920
All right, So head on over to Patreon. Link is

2203
01:51:04,920 --> 01:51:07,399
into description or pen comment. Here's a little preview of

2204
01:51:07,439 --> 01:51:12,840
what's available on Patreon. So is orthopros considered a derogatory term?

2205
01:51:12,880 --> 01:51:16,279
But you and Sam have your situation. What was your

2206
01:51:16,680 --> 01:51:18,720
impression of the debate you had with him as a

2207
01:51:18,880 --> 01:51:22,680
debate partner on value tainment? And then when do you

2208
01:51:22,720 --> 01:51:25,760
think that devolved to what ended up devolving to? Which

2209
01:51:25,760 --> 01:51:26,399
will get into.

2210
01:51:26,640 --> 01:51:30,439
Speaker 1: We don't make judgments about individuals, and like, I don't

2211
01:51:30,479 --> 01:51:32,880
know your destiny, I don't know the work of God's

2212
01:51:32,880 --> 01:51:35,000
spirit in your heart. I do believe it. Liked the

2213
01:51:35,039 --> 01:51:36,960
thief on the Cross, and I tried to bring some

2214
01:51:37,119 --> 01:51:40,720
you know, philosophical internal critiques to the table, and I

2215
01:51:40,800 --> 01:51:42,359
think it was a blowout because if you go and

2216
01:51:42,439 --> 01:51:45,079
I mean it's had multiple millions of views across the platforms,

2217
01:51:45,119 --> 01:51:46,720
if you go to the Pressure for a channel, you

2218
01:51:46,800 --> 01:51:51,600
can see forty thousand ish comments ninety eight percent is

2219
01:51:51,680 --> 01:51:52,199
long lost.

2220
01:51:52,479 --> 01:51:54,239
Speaker 2: Some of the folks that I see that are coming

2221
01:51:54,560 --> 01:51:58,000
towards Eastern Orthodoxy seem to have a crippling fear and

2222
01:51:58,039 --> 01:51:59,840
anxiety around their own salvation.

2223
01:52:00,560 --> 01:52:03,439
Speaker 1: The argument that you're making violates the very thing that

2224
01:52:03,520 --> 01:52:05,680
you just said would relativize the positions.

2225
01:52:06,079 --> 01:52:07,520
Speaker 2: The argument that I'm making right now.

2226
01:52:07,680 --> 01:52:10,479
Speaker 1: Your argument is no different than anyone else's argument you're citing.

2227
01:52:10,520 --> 01:52:13,000
You're saying, I have this position, they have that position.

2228
01:52:13,119 --> 01:52:15,239
You have your position. Yeah, of course, but that has

2229
01:52:15,319 --> 01:52:17,279
nothing to do with its line