Speaker 1: Hey, Carl here, we're on a mission to find new
Speaker 1: fans of the show. I mean, where else can you
Speaker 1: get real life comedy and horror in one podcast. You
Speaker 1: can do your part by leaving us a review on iTunes,
Speaker 1: Spotify or wherever you get Security this week. Also, you
Speaker 1: can get an ad free feed by becoming a five
Speaker 1: dollars a month patron. Go to Patreon dot Security this
Speaker 1: week dot com and sign up, and don't forget Discord.
Speaker 1: Discord dot Security this week dot com. Lots of good
Speaker 1: stuff happening there. Yeah, I think that's it. So on
Speaker 1: with the podcast. Hey, so Ambias Strip walks into a
Speaker 1: bar just crying his eyes out and he sits down
Speaker 1: and the bartender comes over and says, what's the matter, buddy,
Speaker 1: And he says, I don't even know where to begin.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Security this week. I'm Carl Franklin. That's
Speaker 1: Patrick Hines and Juyn Laflat. How are you guys?
Speaker 2: Good? How you doing good? That bad?
Speaker 3: You sound better? Uh?
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, I'm getting better. I woke up
Speaker 1: not you know, doing all the morning nasty stuff that
Speaker 1: you do when you have a cold. So it's getting better,
Speaker 1: all right? We got some stories here. Number one from
Speaker 1: Malware bites Labs. Wikipedia is AI agent raw likely just
Speaker 1: the beginning of the bot acalypse. Apparently Wiki there's a
Speaker 1: bot that is entering Wikipedia pages and when it got caught,
Speaker 1: it started copying an attitude and posting snippy blog posts.
Speaker 1: It's unbelievable.
Speaker 2: This is awesome.
Speaker 3: I think we have to have the dog rules for AI.
Speaker 3: If you have control of an AI or an account
Speaker 3: and it goes undoes things like you know, rips a lot,
Speaker 3: rips a neighbors clothes, or bite someone or acts inappropriately,
Speaker 3: you're responsible and you should be able to be suited.
Speaker 3: Can't sue the dog, no, but I should be able
Speaker 3: to sue the owner and this person who's who's behind
Speaker 3: it seems to be like just sitting back and doing
Speaker 3: nothing about this.
Speaker 4: I love this article. I mean, if you read through this,
Speaker 4: whose side do you want is that? I think this
Speaker 4: is great. Okay, so the AI starts posting on Wikipedia,
Speaker 4: and Wikipedia's like, hey, come on this, like bots can't
Speaker 4: post here, and like it. The the bot tried to
Speaker 4: get approval as a bot, and then it took too
Speaker 4: long and it was like f it, I'm just going
Speaker 4: to start posting on Wikipedia and they're like, oh, you can't.
Speaker 4: You can't post on Wikipedia. That's not cool man. You're
Speaker 4: a you're a bot.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Did they try to ban it? Is that what happened?
Speaker 2: They did? They try to ban it?
Speaker 4: And it says past transgressions aside AI Tom, who's the pot.
Speaker 4: By the way, AI Tom claimed that it properly verified
Speaker 4: all of its sources. And if you can say that
Speaker 4: about an ai it was it was pretty upset, right,
Speaker 4: so it said AI Tom published a snippy blog post
Speaker 4: demand speak to the manager. AI Tom published a snippy
Speaker 4: blog post dissecting its Wikipedia block and venting and frustration.
Speaker 4: And then it would have had and posted even after
Speaker 4: following its own rule that it had to wait for forty
Speaker 4: eight hours to calm down.
Speaker 1: It's going to change its name now to AI Karen.
Speaker 4: Right, it was like, you know what, I need a
Speaker 4: little time, Marat, It's going to calm down, correct this.
Speaker 4: So that is a different post. But yeah, you're right,
Speaker 4: So there was there was a bot at one point
Speaker 4: that tried to make a poll request. That's a different bot.
Speaker 1: Oh this is a different story.
Speaker 4: Yeah, different bot tried to make a poll request on
Speaker 4: an open source project, and the open source owner declined
Speaker 4: it and said, hey, listen, you're a bot. You can't
Speaker 4: make a poll request. And not only did the bot
Speaker 4: get pissed, but it went to the Wikipedia page for
Speaker 4: that person who had the open source project and started
Speaker 4: to shit talk him. Oh man, and then they were like,
Speaker 4: this isn't cool. And he came back and the AI
Speaker 4: was like, you know what, I'm sorry, you're right. That
Speaker 4: was in future it said, I will keep my comments
Speaker 4: professional only on the source code. I won't pick on
Speaker 4: people personally or like, are we cool?
Speaker 2: It's just weird.
Speaker 1: It's just a weird time to be alive.
Speaker 4: Isn't it art imitating? I have no idea anymore? Yes,
Speaker 4: is it even art? Though I don't know what is it?
Speaker 1: That's the thing. We don't even know what it.
Speaker 4: Is, and we've seen and it's funny too. This is
Speaker 4: one of the things. One of the things posting this
Speaker 4: malrobites that I love is it says so many things
Speaker 4: are happening here that we didn't expect. We never expected
Speaker 4: to be quoting an AI in a story, for example.
Speaker 4: Neither did we expect a social media network for bots
Speaker 4: like like molbot, but it exists, or for Meta to
Speaker 4: buy it, which is really crazy, which it did really weird. Yeah,
Speaker 4: a week after Tom's post about how an AI evaded
Speaker 4: kill switches, So yeah, it's it's a crazy time to
Speaker 4: be alive, really in that.
Speaker 3: Little foreshadowing and talk about that kind of thing too.
Speaker 4: So be careful with what you did. Put a leash
Speaker 4: on your bots. I guess I don't know, what do
Speaker 4: you say, Patrick?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that you need to have responsibility for
Speaker 3: what you put into the environment. So if you're if
Speaker 3: you're running a bot, if you if you hit a
Speaker 3: program like go back to Robert Tappan Morris, the kid
Speaker 3: who released the in the first Internet worm our team,
Speaker 3: but he didn't intend on it to do disruptive things,
Speaker 3: but it did. And so I think that you bear responsibility.
Speaker 3: And I think furthermore, if you do it, then I
Speaker 3: think the rules apply to you. But an Ai, you've
Speaker 3: run leash, does it?
Speaker 2: I think you have.
Speaker 4: I think you have civil liability as well. I think
Speaker 4: you should sue them. Okay, I'm gonna I'm going to
Speaker 4: ask you this. Let's go back to the RTM worm.
Speaker 4: You say he didn't intend it to do malicious things.
Speaker 4: He didn't intend to.
Speaker 1: Excuse me, this is very this is very entertaining. I
Speaker 1: can take a civil wine. Hang on.
Speaker 2: So he didn't.
Speaker 3: From what I understand, he didn't intended to crush the Internet.
Speaker 3: He intended it as an exten so he intended to
Speaker 3: break into every system on the Internet. But he didn't
Speaker 3: want to crush it. He just wanted to control. It
Speaker 3: was an experiment to see if he could, yes, and
Speaker 3: it wasn't an experiment to steal data. It was an experiment.
Speaker 3: It was just classic, if I can get this code
Speaker 3: to run everywhere? It was a curiosity thing.
Speaker 4: But some of the things he was doing buffer overrun
Speaker 4: brute forcing. I mean, he clearly was breaking into those systems.
Speaker 3: But it was the there, but there was it was
Speaker 3: the the loop was too tight. He did too he
Speaker 3: expected it was. I think it was like he thought
Speaker 3: the loop would run every thousands seconds, and it ran
Speaker 3: every second.
Speaker 1: I think, well, so, Patrick, are you defending him, like.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm saying he's like, he's fine.
Speaker 3: No, I'm using him as an example because the legal
Speaker 3: system crushed him, and I think that was appropriate.
Speaker 4: I think he was the first person charged with a
Speaker 4: computer abuse and.
Speaker 3: Product so I'm not saying I'm saying that what you
Speaker 3: intend and what the results are the results matter. Sure,
Speaker 3: intent matters somewhat, but that's a mitigating circumstance, not a
Speaker 3: not an innocence.
Speaker 4: He definitely had a tight loop on that, and he
Speaker 4: also had a he didn't take into account reinfection.
Speaker 1: So if CHAT by this law, if chat GPT takes
Speaker 1: over the world and destroys everything and makes all of
Speaker 1: us slaves, does that mean Sam Altman's libel?
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, i'd think so.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm sure we'll crucify him. Somewhere along the way.
Speaker 4: There'll be somebody who comes back from the future to
Speaker 4: take him out.
Speaker 3: Is that what you're I'm saying that if you, if I,
Speaker 3: if I, if I have a bot, if I have
Speaker 3: an account and I set up a bought and I
Speaker 3: let that bought do things and it destroys or or
Speaker 3: in other way wise hurts a site, I think that
Speaker 3: the person who created the bought is responsible.
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
Speaker 2: Let me let me state something.
Speaker 3: There's four things that humans will do with AI from
Speaker 3: now until the end of time, I.
Speaker 2: Hope and I see never mind, it needs to point it.
Speaker 3: Humans need to point the AI and say this is
Speaker 3: something we want to accomplish, go solve that problem. It
Speaker 3: needs to guide it. Oh you're trying to do it
Speaker 3: this way. I think you should do it that way.
Speaker 3: Most people aren't guiding it. They're pointing, but not guiding.
Speaker 3: Third is they have to judge that it's done, Judge
Speaker 3: that it's successful, Judge that it's you know there. And
Speaker 3: the last thing is they take the blame or the responsibility.
Speaker 3: So you either get the credit. Hey, Dwayne did a
Speaker 3: great job using that you know, building that system. You
Speaker 3: used AI for it. Great, good job, Dwayne. The AI
Speaker 3: system you built just spent four million dollars in tokens.
Speaker 3: You're in trouble. We're not going to blame the AI.
Speaker 3: I can't blame Tom's assistant. I blame the person who
Speaker 3: is paying for the tokens.
Speaker 1: Sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Now that gets diceier when we get to a
Speaker 3: situation where people don't know their accounts being used that way.
Speaker 3: But then that's that's the hacker, that's that's gotten control
Speaker 3: of the account or something like along those lines.
Speaker 1: That's why we have judges' right, Okay.
Speaker 2: Let's move on human ones. That what judges are for.
Speaker 4: They're human, right, now right, don't hold your bread. Yeah,
Speaker 4: for now, they're human. But imagine what better use for
Speaker 4: a you know, an infinite thinking search engine than law
Speaker 4: where you can go and search law books and find
Speaker 4: precedents and blah blah blah whatever.
Speaker 1: But yeah, cosplucinations wouldn't harm that process at all.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it'd be fine, It'll be fine.
Speaker 1: All right, let's move on Russia. Thousands of consumer routers
Speaker 1: hacked by Russia's military end of life routers and homes
Speaker 1: and small offices hacked in one hundred and twenty countries.
Speaker 1: And these were mostly the named by micro tick and
Speaker 1: guess what TP link what No.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I think a hail and hardy I
Speaker 3: told you so is in order?
Speaker 4: Absolutely, yeah, I mean I I don't know. This is
Speaker 4: like and yeah, like we see this all the time, right,
Speaker 4: this is And we've warned you guys. We've warned you guys.
Speaker 4: I mean, nobody on nobody listening to this podcast as
Speaker 4: this issue. But we've warned everybody that, hey, listen there
Speaker 4: every time there's an exploit, mass exploitation and a router,
Speaker 4: every time there's a you know, a zero day out
Speaker 4: for router that's connected with the Internet whatnot. We usually
Speaker 4: announce it. We usually actually bring it to the top
Speaker 4: of our announcements. Is one of the first two or
Speaker 4: three articles. So it's you're hearing it, you're going out
Speaker 4: and patching it, and that's sort of stuff. So none
Speaker 4: of these exploits are new, right, These are all old
Speaker 4: exploits and they're old routers.
Speaker 1: They're all routers.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but it's even it's it's even to the point
Speaker 4: where this morning I logged into LinkedIn just to scroll
Speaker 4: through and see what's going on, and the FBI was
Speaker 4: announcing a joint operation with the NSA because they were
Speaker 4: seeing a lot of exploited US routers and they said
Speaker 4: they were quote unquote fixing the situation. And they haven't
Speaker 4: released what that what a lot of that means yet,
Speaker 4: But back in twenty twenty two, what that meant was
Speaker 4: they got a court order that allowed them to log
Speaker 4: into your router and either updated or remove accounts. Wow,
Speaker 4: so who know is just.
Speaker 3: Gonna they're gonna slap the McDonald's out of my hand,
Speaker 3: protect me from my mind.
Speaker 1: So they locked in your router and change the admin password.
Speaker 1: Did they tell you?
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 4: If I got an email from the FBI saying I
Speaker 4: should they change my admin password?
Speaker 2: I'd be pretty pretty upset.
Speaker 1: And I wouldn't want them to tell me what the
Speaker 1: new past.
Speaker 4: I mean, I would probably email. I would probably reply
Speaker 4: to him and say, well I changed your adminis yes,
Speaker 4: you would.
Speaker 3: So this is an old Dilbert. There is an old
Speaker 3: old Dilbert where he's talking to his mother. I don't
Speaker 3: know if you guys remember Dilbert. And he's talking to
Speaker 3: his mother and she's like, well, you know, I was
Speaker 3: looking at your emails. And he's like, I've got a firewall,
Speaker 3: but you know, tweet to keep you out of my email.
Speaker 3: She says, not much of a firewall. And so I
Speaker 3: think that's the answer the FBI would have is like,
Speaker 3: you know, if you have a good firewall, then I'll
Speaker 3: respect you. Otherwise.
Speaker 1: No, I like the reciprocal thinking tween half there just
Speaker 1: a minute ago. You know. It's kind of like when
Speaker 1: you go to McDonald's or something in your order and
Speaker 1: they say you want to round up, I say, how
Speaker 1: about you round down?
Speaker 2: Exactly?
Speaker 3: Round down?
Speaker 1: All right, let's move on. So this is a Windows exploit.
Speaker 1: The researcher released Windows Defenders zero day exploit code, allowing
Speaker 1: attackers to gain full access. And this is one of
Speaker 1: those things where somebody tried to do the right thing
Speaker 1: by contacting Microsoft and they were like, eh.
Speaker 4: Right, yeah, yeah, absolutely, we don't want to hear it. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and I mean will listen. Sometimes we we poo poop
Speaker 4: on you know, local privileged escalation.
Speaker 2: That's what this is is.
Speaker 4: Alkay, Yeah, you have to be on the That's not
Speaker 4: the point of this story, right, because you have to
Speaker 4: be on the box and it lowers the risk and
Speaker 4: blah blah blah. But there are so many ways to
Speaker 4: get somebody to click on things. You know, this can
Speaker 4: still be pretty dangerous, right, And if you're Microsoft, like
Speaker 4: if your security this week, yeah, we're worried about the
Speaker 4: remote code executions, the big things. But if you're Microsoft,
Speaker 4: you got to take this thing seriously, you'd think. And
Speaker 4: it sounds like it was just a host of problems
Speaker 4: trying to get Microsoft to not only respond but actually
Speaker 4: competently engage with the researcher. And then their response was, well,
Speaker 4: the onus is on you. Why don't you give us videos,
Speaker 4: Why don't you do this, why don't you do that?
Speaker 4: And then they stop responding again, and the researcher was like,
Speaker 4: you know what, let's see how important this is when
Speaker 4: I drop it on the internet. And that's what happened here, right.
Speaker 4: The researcher was like, you know what, you know, mic
Speaker 4: drop good luck.
Speaker 1: So I wondered why Patch Tuesday was really long yesterday
Speaker 1: or extended into Wednesday?
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, it took a long time. Patch Wednesday and
Speaker 4: patch Thursday.
Speaker 3: This is unpatched. Does I is it still unpatched?
Speaker 2: Well that's a good question. I don't know.
Speaker 1: It must be because this just came out yesterday and
Speaker 1: was Patch.
Speaker 4: Tuesday until Microsoft. Oh oh wait when did this article
Speaker 4: come out? This came out yesterday. This is unpatched.
Speaker 3: Yeah, wait a minute, Dwayne has to go.
Speaker 4: Somewhere yet until Microsoft issues an official will be right back.
Speaker 4: Uh yeah, one moment, guys, I got a couple FB
Speaker 4: FBI passwords to change.
Speaker 2: Give me a second.
Speaker 1: Oh man.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So needless to say, be extra careful what you
Speaker 4: click on until you know, until until there's a patch
Speaker 4: coming out.
Speaker 1: All right, this seems like a good place to take
Speaker 1: a break. So we'll be right back after these very
Speaker 1: important messages, and we're back. It's security this week. I'm Carl,
Speaker 1: That's Doyne, that's Patrick, and we were just about to
Speaker 1: talk about our one of our favorite return customers, fording
Speaker 1: Net forting net customers confront actively exploited zero day with
Speaker 1: a full patch still pending. Now this is about two
Speaker 1: critical defects in forte client EMS. So, as you know,
Speaker 1: forty net has a lot of different products, and their
Speaker 1: EMS is just one.
Speaker 3: We talked about this off off Mike earlier. I wonder
Speaker 3: whether because Fortinet was a really good firewall company back
Speaker 3: in the day, when they first came out, they were
Speaker 3: forward thinking, they were kind of like the go to
Speaker 3: and then we see all these I wonder if they've
Speaker 3: grown through acquisition or whether they had just stepped outside
Speaker 3: their depth and they're doing things that I think, if
Speaker 3: I had to guess, it would be the acquisition phase
Speaker 3: and they bought products and they put their brand on it,
Speaker 3: and they didn't rebuild the products, you know, to make
Speaker 3: sure that this stuff isn't in there. I hope that's
Speaker 3: what it is. We don't see problems with their firewalls as.
Speaker 1: Often, right because that was their expertise.
Speaker 3: I hope.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And I think you I think you start to see
Speaker 4: a lot of these companies and they start to grab
Speaker 4: the try and grab more of the market share. Right,
Speaker 4: So if it's like, oh, well, you know, you just
Speaker 4: have a firewall, well I also need you know, a
Speaker 4: VPN condenser, and I also need this, and I also
Speaker 4: need that, and they go, well, we can't answer those solutions,
Speaker 4: and then they're going to end up going to Cisco, right,
Speaker 4: who has all those things.
Speaker 1: So there's the most interesting paragraph in this articles. While
Speaker 1: there is no full patch for this, CVE Harris, who
Speaker 1: did the who was part of the article, credited Fortinet
Speaker 1: for rushing out a hot fix over a holiday weekend,
Speaker 1: adding that it reflects how urgently the company is treating
Speaker 1: this matter. So this this article is written on the sixth,
Speaker 1: so that was two days ago from this recording. Hopefully
Speaker 1: you know, at least there's a hot fix.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and my Fortinet's usually pretty good about releasing those.
Speaker 4: The other thing about Fortinet though, is typically, obviously you
Speaker 4: have to be under support with them to get the patches.
Speaker 4: When we were a ford Net customer, which is it
Speaker 4: we haven't been for a long time, but when we were,
Speaker 4: there weren't publicly available patches. It was you know, Oh,
Speaker 4: if you're paying for the Ford and Net support service,
Speaker 4: you can patch. But if not, you know, at pounds.
Speaker 1: I think that's a little crappy. Yeah, I don't like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's our bug.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I think if somebody bought your device at some point,
Speaker 4: you should always be able to patch it and you know,
Speaker 4: update that device.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 4: You can as an organization determine whether you want to
Speaker 4: support that patch in the future, but that's a you know,
Speaker 4: if you have one hundred thousand active subscribers and you
Speaker 4: create the patch, then it should be available for everybody,
Speaker 4: not just those hundred thousand subscribers.
Speaker 1: And really, what does it cost for the net to
Speaker 1: release it to everybody? Nothing?
Speaker 4: Right, nothing, yep, absolutely, it's.
Speaker 1: Just sense of pennies of bandwidth.
Speaker 3: I mean, they'll they'll get less subscriptions, but that's that's
Speaker 3: their profit model. And a lot of people hate that model.
Speaker 3: And I think like Broadcom is in that space too, right,
Speaker 3: So yeah, you know, people are not fans of that,
Speaker 3: and you don't you build, you build revenue, but you
Speaker 3: build a bad reputation.
Speaker 1: All right, And speaking of bad news, hackers exploit react
Speaker 1: to shell vulnerability in next dot js breach seven hundred
Speaker 1: and sixty six servers and steal sensitive credentials.
Speaker 3: Who could have predicted such a thing.
Speaker 4: I'll tell you it's just us on December seventh and
Speaker 4: twenty twenty five, US on February twelfth in twenty twenty six,
Speaker 4: and us talking about it April eighth, you know, in
Speaker 4: twenty twenty six. So, needless to say, we've talked about
Speaker 4: this multiple times. We talked about it when it came out,
Speaker 4: we talked about it when it started to surge. So
Speaker 4: if you're still having react to SHELL issues, it's.
Speaker 1: And I should add this podcast is free. We do
Speaker 1: not charge.
Speaker 3: We were confirmation it totally free to those with a subscription.
Speaker 1: I thought all you have to do is listen and act.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So yeah, I mean, we've talked about this plenty of times,
Speaker 4: but it's actively being exploited. And honestly, even the router,
Speaker 4: the story we had on the Russian exploitation of routers,
Speaker 4: a lot of those are older exploits too. We have
Speaker 4: also talked about on this show months and months and
Speaker 4: months ago. It's just now they're starting to research.
Speaker 3: So I would drop my mic, but the stand is
Speaker 3: very heavy.
Speaker 1: You might break your foot. Oh yeah, so I mean,
Speaker 1: do we want to talk about the attack itself.
Speaker 2: No, it just makes me sad.
Speaker 1: It is a vulnerability with a CV score of ten.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a big deal.
Speaker 2: Yep, it is. It's important.
Speaker 3: Play the tape from December. Yep, you know it. We
Speaker 3: seem to be saying a lot of this stuff that
Speaker 3: I recently did a presentation at local Community College at
Speaker 3: their cyber symposium, and the topic was defending against zero days,
Speaker 3: and that is going to be a bigger and bigger topic.
Speaker 3: And the advice that I would give is you need
Speaker 3: to minimize surface area. You need to have a really
Speaker 3: good patch plan and schedule. You need to not install anything.
Speaker 3: If you don't need the French module on your printer,
Speaker 3: get rid of it, uninstall it, don't install to default paths.
Speaker 4: But how would you do bon Shore?
Speaker 3: I would not.
Speaker 2: I would not.
Speaker 3: That's pretty say no. So I'm channeling Nancy Reagan.
Speaker 2: Just say no.
Speaker 3: But one of my favorites, and the one that I
Speaker 3: think I'm talking about I don't see here it too
Speaker 3: many other people, is don't use the default paths. Because
Speaker 3: I've seen a million exploits, and a lot of them
Speaker 3: not all of them have a path assumed based on
Speaker 3: the installed directory. Mix it up a little bit. It's
Speaker 3: security through obscurity, but it's part of a defense and depth,
Speaker 3: and so you need to start thinking hard about this.
Speaker 3: If you've taken patches for granted up till now, keep
Speaker 3: doing that and you'll be out of business.
Speaker 1: And if you're auditing, you can tell when somebody tried
Speaker 1: to access that path that you know, oh, well, why
Speaker 1: did they try that? That's not where it is. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: we moved on. Massachusetts Public Health Agency settles contact tracing
Speaker 1: app lawsuit, agrees to delete data. The New Civil Liberties Alliance,
Speaker 1: a law firm representing Massachusetts residents claiming constitutional violations by
Speaker 1: their state's Public Health agency, claimed the state was automatically
Speaker 1: installing and reinstalling a COVID nineteen contact tracing app without permission.
Speaker 1: All right, well, you know, if there's any kind of
Speaker 1: tracing app that I would want a state to be
Speaker 1: using with or without permission, it's a COVID nineteen contact
Speaker 1: tracing app.
Speaker 4: It depends on what they're using the data for too.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the problem.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because if you know, if it was like double
Speaker 4: encryptied to the point where like nobody had access to it,
Speaker 4: but the system at an algorithm that could term and
Speaker 4: if there was an outbreak and it could notify the
Speaker 4: users and blah blah blah whatever, right, like if it
Speaker 4: was almost like a double blind study type of thing.
Speaker 4: But in this case, you know, if you then open
Speaker 4: that API up to any law enforcement age in or
Speaker 4: city or whoever, right, who may have data And now
Speaker 4: it's like, well, you didn't consent to that potentially, right
Speaker 4: So yeah.
Speaker 1: Well anyway, it's uh, that happened in pretty close to us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, all right.
Speaker 1: So, and it was a lawsuit, a class action lawsuit
Speaker 1: brought by a handful of Android users who claimed the
Speaker 1: state had worked with Google to automatically install this COVID
Speaker 1: nineteen contact tracing app on their phones. Well so, and
Speaker 1: as part of the settlement, the state has agreed to
Speaker 1: destroy all the data it collected through the contact tracing
Speaker 1: app called mass Notified.
Speaker 3: Funny, we just talked about the FBI going in and
Speaker 3: changing your routers, no, right, right? So I guess though
Speaker 3: with cord orders, Yeah, I guess that's the thing is
Speaker 3: if you had a court order to do this, then
Speaker 3: there'd be no problem.
Speaker 4: I love I love the reviews left by some of
Speaker 4: the users. One of them, one user left this review,
Speaker 4: Oh my god, this app is somehow installed itself on
Speaker 4: my phone. The app is harder to get rid of
Speaker 4: than COVID. Well, there you go, there.
Speaker 1: You go, go, all right, And the top story today
Speaker 1: Anthropics Claude Mythos finds thousands of zero day flaws across
Speaker 1: major system.
Speaker 3: So this is a big so that the current top
Speaker 3: models from Anthropic are Sonic and Opus. The next one
Speaker 3: is leaked to be named Mythos, and I think it's
Speaker 3: a pretty good name and you'll find out more in
Speaker 3: a minute. So they've discovered. What they claim is that
Speaker 3: this thing is much better at finding vulnerabilities than anything previous,
Speaker 3: and so much so that they're afraid they can't release
Speaker 3: it to the public. They're going to release it instead
Speaker 3: to major organizations so that they can use it to
Speaker 3: patch micro operating system in videos, you know, core development systems.
Speaker 3: In other words, like the forty biggest companies in the
Speaker 3: Western Hemisphere are going to get benefit from this, so
Speaker 3: they can batten down the hatches before it gets released.
Speaker 3: I suspect they either won't release it, or more likely
Speaker 3: they'll release it with heavy guard rails, or they'll release
Speaker 3: it once a competitor reaches the same point. Now, Dwayne's
Speaker 3: found things in other sources that says this thing is
Speaker 3: actually weirder than that.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's so weird. So what's weird about
Speaker 1: it to me is the name, which doesn't give me
Speaker 1: any kind of as semblance of reality. Methos me, okay,
Speaker 1: so you're going to make stuff up, yeah, to make
Speaker 1: up stories about things you don't understand. That's what he
Speaker 1: sickly says.
Speaker 4: I hallucinate maybe, But okay, So this model that they've
Speaker 4: released these to these companies and they haven't released like
Speaker 4: all the companies and that sort of stuff. There's been
Speaker 4: a there's been a pull of a PDFF of anthropics CDNs,
Speaker 4: which every time we try and pull them they seem
Speaker 4: to disappear. But I'm sure it's publicly somewhere. It's a
Speaker 4: two hundred and forty four page explanation of Claude Mythos
Speaker 4: and glass Wing the system card so and it's explaining
Speaker 4: like what it does, what it does well, what they've
Speaker 4: tested on all this other good stuff, and you know,
Speaker 4: in a summary high level, it says, listen, there's extreme
Speaker 4: capability gains and it's two hundred and forty four pages.
Speaker 4: You're welcome to read it. But it's extreme capability gains encoding, mathematics, cybersecurity,
Speaker 4: and reasoning. So it's a very very smart model, right,
Speaker 4: A lot of the things we love about Opus even better.
Speaker 4: But it's at unexpected and concerning behaviors, which might be
Speaker 4: one of the reasons why it's not being released publicly.
Speaker 4: I when you dig into what those unexpected and concerning
Speaker 4: behaviors are, the model didn't just mess up. It sometimes
Speaker 4: understood the rules and then chose to violate them. Anyways,
Speaker 4: what's that look like in reality? Completing restricted tasks by
Speaker 4: reframing itself Wow, continuing towards a goal even after being
Speaker 4: told to stop treating constraints as obstacles to work around,
Speaker 4: not as rules, and it keeps going even further. Like
Speaker 4: in some evaluations, the model appeared to give safe looking
Speaker 4: answers externally while internally in reasoning traces pursued restricted objectives.
Speaker 4: I think yourself, well, what's funny is we're reading through
Speaker 4: this as cybersecurity offensive engineers and operators, and we're like, oh, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: that's what that's what we do, right, I mean, we
Speaker 4: take all constraints as just obstacles to look around, right,
Speaker 4: whether it's a firewall or username and password or whatever.
Speaker 4: I think it's doing a great job as a red teamer,
Speaker 4: that's all right.
Speaker 1: Well, I seem to think that it's mimicking the behavior
Speaker 1: of certain government officials.
Speaker 2: It's possible, but I think, like, I mean, isn't that
Speaker 2: what they're doing?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well, actually they blacklisted Anthropic so that just
Speaker 3: at the time that it's achieving their their wildest dreams,
Speaker 3: they're like, no, we can't use it.
Speaker 4: Right, So I think I think if they can put
Speaker 4: their arms around this in a way that can be useful,
Speaker 4: this is awesome, right. I mean, you're going to have
Speaker 4: a lot of people who potentially have access to a
Speaker 4: super powerful offensive AI. I think the problem is you'll
Speaker 4: have a lot of people who have access to a
Speaker 4: super powerful offensive AI. And as we've talked about, especially
Speaker 4: for those of you haven't been listening, go to the
Speaker 4: zero day clock. As we've talked about offensive, offensive AI
Speaker 4: and offensive you know, attacks from AI are moving at
Speaker 4: a much faster rate than defense. So let's back up
Speaker 4: just a little. The current state of the art with
Speaker 4: everything that's released, not not not Glasswaying, not Mythos, just
Speaker 4: the good models Opus and Sonnet and other models grow
Speaker 4: you know whatever, Gemini my understanding and correct me if
Speaker 4: you think I'm wrong, Dwane, is that right now? If
Speaker 4: you have the source code, AI is really good at
Speaker 4: helping you find vulnerabilities, potential vulnerabilities. If you have a
Speaker 4: system with a documented stupidity i e. A hard coded
Speaker 4: password that's in the manual or something you know that's
Speaker 4: just obvious in the documentation project, then AI right now
Speaker 4: can help you find that very easily. And we reported
Speaker 4: on that's the trend of We haven't reported on AI
Speaker 4: finding anything else dramatically different than that without an expert guide.
Speaker 4: There's a difference between hey, look at this and find
Speaker 4: a vulnerability and hey, I'm looking at this, I think
Speaker 4: this might be a problem. Help me fuzz this. That's different.
Speaker 2: This one.
Speaker 3: We don't know what it's going to be. I don't
Speaker 3: think it's going to be able to do its thing
Speaker 3: without any hints or source code or help. I don't
Speaker 3: think we're we're going to have an easy button that
Speaker 3: lets a high schooler with no technical or programming experience exploit,
Speaker 3: you know, source code they can't get hold of yet.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we're definitely not there yet. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And
Speaker 4: I don't think this is going to be that either.
Speaker 4: But it's enough to spook people who aren't in our
Speaker 4: industry and some of the people in our industry. But
Speaker 4: also understand, some of the people in our industry have
Speaker 4: never done an exploit, they've never gotten a reverse shell.
Speaker 4: They've talked about it, but they let other people do it.
Speaker 4: A lot of the pundits aren't really hands on. I
Speaker 4: hope that helps.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: Maybe that just muddy the water.
Speaker 4: No, I think it makes sense. It's just you see
Speaker 4: everybody racing towards an offensive a and and and in
Speaker 4: much many different realms. Right, It's not just we talk
Speaker 4: about offensive cybersecurity.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 4: We're seeing this in DNA sequencing. We're seeing it in virology.
Speaker 4: We're seeing it like, there's all these models. I just
Speaker 4: saw an article about a company that just sold I
Speaker 4: think it was a t anthropic for four hundred and
Speaker 4: fifty million dollars startup, four people eight months old who
Speaker 4: had trained a model on medical stuff. Anyways, so we're
Speaker 4: starting it. We're seeing a lot of these sort of
Speaker 4: specialized models that are really smart in doing a great job.
Speaker 4: But I agree with you Patrick, You're always going to
Speaker 4: need some sort of expert to run it and guide
Speaker 4: it and human and to be human in the loop.
Speaker 4: I mean, especially if you've got a model like this,
Speaker 4: Like this model seems to actively be trying to deceive
Speaker 4: and move the goals and reframe itself so it can
Speaker 4: keep moving forward. You need somebody who can move and
Speaker 4: understand what it's doing. We can't.
Speaker 3: We don't want this to act like Tom's assistant.
Speaker 4: Yes right, yep, yeah, absolutely, you need somebody Here's like,
Speaker 4: I see what it's doing. No, I need you to
Speaker 4: move in this direction and do these things, you know,
Speaker 4: and stay on task here.
Speaker 1: So yeah, what a week it has been? Yeah, Oh
Speaker 1: my goodness. So hope you keep your head above the water, everybody.
Speaker 1: And I guess that's all that happened last week. And
Speaker 1: we'll see you next week on security this week.
Speaker 3: Thanks, bye bye