Speaker 1: We're getting close. We have at least one and maybe
Speaker 1: both presidential candidates looking to adopt bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies
Speaker 1: as a way to encourage innovation because they know it's happening.
Speaker 1: I mean, the real killer is all this innovation is happening,
Speaker 1: and there are Americans. Many Americans are coming up with
Speaker 1: these innovative things, and then they geo fence the US,
Speaker 1: in effect not allowing anybody in the US to try
Speaker 1: their product. And all those great products are happening outside
Speaker 1: the US, and all those customers are able to innovate
Speaker 1: from that new platform, and we're not because there's this
Speaker 1: big dark cloud that is the sec today.
Speaker 2: This content is brought to you by bitco, which is
Speaker 2: one of the top crypto custodians in the crypto industry.
Speaker 2: Bitco works with many big companies and brands such as
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Speaker 2: many great services such as hot wallets, custodial wallets, self
Speaker 2: managed cold wallets, and NFT wallets. Many institutions trust Bitco
Speaker 2: with its top level security and incredible services such as
Speaker 2: being able to deploy your capital wallet's in custody, which
Speaker 2: includes lending, borrowing, trading, staking, DeFi access and more. If
Speaker 2: you'd like to learn more about bitco, please visit bitgo
Speaker 2: dot com link in the description. Welcome into the Thinking
Speaker 2: Crypto Podcast. I'm your host, Tony Edward and with me
Speaker 2: is Tim Draper, who's a legendary investor, the founder of DFJ,
Speaker 2: Draper University, Draper Venture Network, and Draper Associates. Tim was
Speaker 2: an investor in many different companies such as Tesla, Skype, SpaceX, Twitch, Robinhood, Coinbase,
Speaker 2: and many others, and he also wrote a book, How
Speaker 2: to Be the Startup Hero.
Speaker 1: Tim.
Speaker 2: It's an honor to have you on the podcast, Tony.
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to it
Speaker 1: should be fine.
Speaker 2: So, Tim, you know, I've seen many of your interviews
Speaker 2: and I want to take a bit of a different
Speaker 2: angle because I want to get to know a bit
Speaker 2: about you and your journey to investment. You know, where
Speaker 2: were you born and what was your childhood like and
Speaker 2: what did you want to be when you were growing up.
Speaker 1: I was born in Highland Park, Illinois, at the center
Speaker 1: of the universe. When I was growing up, I wanted
Speaker 1: to be a baseball player. I collected baseball cards. That's
Speaker 1: where I learned math, or some of my math teachers
Speaker 1: taught me a lot of it. And then baseball cards
Speaker 1: got me thinking about averages, and that was the beginning
Speaker 1: of going into complex math. And I was mostly into sports,
Speaker 1: but I also was really I had a real penchant
Speaker 1: for math. And I got bumped up from second to
Speaker 1: third grade, and third to fifth grade, and fifth to
Speaker 1: eighth grade, and then I was in eighth grade math
Speaker 1: for about four years in a row. They didn't have
Speaker 1: any other math. And then I went away to high school.
Speaker 1: I went to Andover and turns out Andovers not an
Speaker 1: accredited high school, but it's the number one high school
Speaker 1: in the world, so it makes you think about the
Speaker 1: accreditation in a new way. And then I loved Andover.
Speaker 1: I then flew home to Stanford. I lived near Stanford,
Speaker 1: and I went to Stanford studied electrical engineering. I was
Speaker 1: on their football team for a couple of years. Coach Walsh.
Speaker 1: Bill Walsh was my coach, who was a big forty
Speaker 1: nine er coach that brought five Super Bowls to the
Speaker 1: forty nine ers. Oh yeah. I studied electrical engineering and
Speaker 1: physics and creative writing. So it was kind of an
Speaker 1: interesting combination of things that I learned. I was the
Speaker 1: I was a student senator. Well, I was at Stanford
Speaker 1: I and I was going to be a physics major.
Speaker 1: It was it's where my mind was headed. But my
Speaker 1: dad said, yeah, you get a good job in physics
Speaker 1: if you get a PhD. And I was thinking, no,
Speaker 1: it's time to get out and doing something, a job
Speaker 1: and whatever, and he said, but if you're electrical engineering major,
Speaker 1: there are a lot of jobs for you. And so
Speaker 1: he guided me in the right direction. And then I
Speaker 1: worked for Hewlett Packard for a couple of years and
Speaker 1: created something called Stamford the Game, which was a board
Speaker 1: game which was great also great fun. And then I
Speaker 1: went to Harvard Business School and just got back from
Speaker 1: the reunion for Harvard and worked as the assistant of
Speaker 1: the president of Apollo Computer while I was there, and
Speaker 1: Apollo was competed with Sun Microsystems at the time, and
Speaker 1: now it's all a part of Microsoft. Everything is a
Speaker 1: part of Microsoft, all the all of those advanced computers.
Speaker 1: And then and then when I got out of business school,
Speaker 1: I worked for Alex Brown, the investment bank for a year,
Speaker 1: and after a year, I felt like I was ready
Speaker 1: to go create a venture capital business on my own.
Speaker 1: And I'm not. I am always willing to just jump
Speaker 1: in and see how it goes. And so I did that.
Speaker 1: For I took over an SBIIC that my dad had.
Speaker 1: My grandfather was the first Silicon Valley venture capitalist. My
Speaker 1: dad was a pioneer venture capital. I took over an
Speaker 1: sbi C that my dad had, small business investment company
Speaker 1: that had three or four companies in it. They were
Speaker 1: all private, nobody knew what they were worth. BA valued
Speaker 1: them at two million dollars. I was able to borrow
Speaker 1: six million from the SBA on that two million of
Speaker 1: private companies and get into business. And that's how I
Speaker 1: built my record, and that's how I got started. And
Speaker 1: after three years it looked like I had lost all
Speaker 1: the money. And then the IPO window opened up and
Speaker 1: I had five IPOs al and one was Parametric Technology
Speaker 1: and still to this day, Parametric, I think is the
Speaker 1: largest software company in the New England area. And then
Speaker 1: from there I just took it one step at a time.
Speaker 1: Brought in a partner, John Fisher. We worked together on
Speaker 1: a fund. Brought in another partner Steve Jervidson. We worked
Speaker 1: together on a fund and then we kept growing and
Speaker 1: growing and growing, and then we became kind of the
Speaker 1: number one venture fund in the world in say two
Speaker 1: thousand and three, after the boom and the but during
Speaker 1: the boom we were number one, and after the bust
Speaker 1: we were number one because I took us international and
Speaker 1: that worked out very well. We did Baidu and Skype internationally.
Speaker 1: And then after a number of years, I started to
Speaker 1: get pretty rich myself personally, and so I was able
Speaker 1: to spin out from DFJ and start my own business again.
Speaker 1: So I did it again. And when I did that,
Speaker 1: I had the freedom to do a lot of other things,
Speaker 1: a lot more experimental things. Why commoner Nator had just started,
Speaker 1: and I thought, wow, that's an interesting model and maybe
Speaker 1: I should be doing something about that. I started Draper
Speaker 1: University and that ended up. At first it was very
Speaker 1: difficult and we had all sorts of problems, but it
Speaker 1: got better and better and better, and now it's I mean,
Speaker 1: it's by far than the place to go if you're
Speaker 1: going to be a venture capitalist, I mean, if you're
Speaker 1: going to be an entrepreneur. Because we've had I don't
Speaker 1: know five thousand entrepreneurs through there. They've started about twelve
Speaker 1: hundred companies and five or unicorns in about fifteen are
Speaker 1: worth more than one hundred million dollars. And they all
Speaker 1: started at Draper University. So that's been a huge success.
Speaker 1: But it was you know, I didn't know what was
Speaker 1: going to happen, and I just started it. I started
Speaker 1: Meet the Drapers, which was a crowd funding where the
Speaker 1: viewer could crowdfund a show where I interview entrepreneurs and
Speaker 1: the winner goes to the next level. And that has
Speaker 1: ended up. At first I could hardly get my mother
Speaker 1: to watch, and now we have I think we have
Speaker 1: I think we have two hundred million viewers. Wow, so
Speaker 1: they're all over the world. It's a huge thing. We've
Speaker 1: got to deal with TikTok now and and Draper Associates.
Speaker 1: The venture Fund has done extraordinarily well, better than I
Speaker 1: did with DFJ, and we we've done extraordinarily well, and
Speaker 1: we have really embraced AI, not just as investors into AI,
Speaker 1: but also as users of AI. It helps us with
Speaker 1: doing diligence on our companies, doing diligence on those industries,
Speaker 1: diligence on the individual entrepreneurs and and now we even
Speaker 1: have you know, if you go to DRAPERTV Draper dot tv,
Speaker 1: you can see our show, but you can also see
Speaker 1: this thing Draper Decentralized, and that is my digital twin.
Speaker 1: That is my fake. And I've read we've now done
Speaker 1: more than fifty of these where the deep fake is
Speaker 1: talking about one company or another of ours, and it's fascinating.
Speaker 1: It's like I, I mean, generally I don't want to
Speaker 1: even look in the mirror, but I love it because
Speaker 1: it gives me that one minute view of what's going
Speaker 1: on in each of those companies at that time, and
Speaker 1: those are key events because they tend to be press.
Speaker 1: Really is that I that my deep fake is reading?
Speaker 1: So you know, we also have se or, which one
Speaker 1: of our companies, that can detect if somebody is lying,
Speaker 1: so we can wrin videos through that. And we have Otter,
Speaker 1: which where we take videos and it transcribes all the
Speaker 1: meetings that we have and we can look back and say, wait,
Speaker 1: what was that company and how did they You know,
Speaker 1: isn't there another company that does an artificial kidney? You know,
Speaker 1: isn't there another company that is doing hyper speed and
Speaker 1: rocketry or you know, all those things, and that has
Speaker 1: been really exciting, and so AI has really captivated me.
Speaker 1: During the time when I was leave, I had left
Speaker 1: DFJ and I was starting Draper Associates well, starting to
Speaker 1: super charge Rape Associates. I also had an opportunity to
Speaker 1: buy a whole bunch of bitcoin, and I did at
Speaker 1: a very cheap price, and then I lost it all
Speaker 1: to the Mount Gox thing. I bought it at four dollars,
Speaker 1: like forty thousand bitcoin four dollars, it's all gone to
Speaker 1: Mount Gox or whatever. And then but I realized how
Speaker 1: important bitcoin was going to be, and so I bought
Speaker 1: a bunch from the US Marshall's office and that has
Speaker 1: been a fantastic investment and it continues to be. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm still a buyer of bitcoin, net buyer of bitcoin
Speaker 1: because it really looks like it's something that will transform
Speaker 1: the world. It's I mean, I know, every you know,
Speaker 1: country leader is always very concerned about their own fiat currencies.
Speaker 1: But bitcoin's just better currency. It's a better way to
Speaker 1: store value, it's a better way to buy and sell.
Speaker 1: It's easier to move from one place to another, so
Speaker 1: there's less liquidity issues, and it's just you know, it's global,
Speaker 1: it's open. Doesn't matter what happens within a country, you
Speaker 1: can always use bitcoin. It's always acceptable. I just talked
Speaker 1: to Propy, which is one of our companies, and they
Speaker 1: have real estate. They're doing real estate on the blockchain,
Speaker 1: and that includes doing title on the blockchain. And I
Speaker 1: started to think about it, and it's like, now you
Speaker 1: can have your own bank and you can keep your
Speaker 1: own tithe in a decentralized, safe, verified way without dealing
Speaker 1: with a central government, without dealing with you know, the
Speaker 1: files of the county or whatever. This is a whole
Speaker 1: new transformation this world that's opening up to all of us.
Speaker 1: That's the decentralized world where everybody gets to participate and
Speaker 1: you're not isolating certain people because they come from one
Speaker 1: country or another. So long answer to a very short question.
Speaker 2: No amazing, Tim, Thank you for sharing those details. And
Speaker 2: you know, as you're talking about your journey and starting
Speaker 2: different companies and so forth, you know, do you ever
Speaker 2: look back and say, wow, man, I accomplish a lot
Speaker 2: and what keeps you motivated to be in the investing
Speaker 2: space and to think about these things versus going on
Speaker 2: a yacht, are an island somewhere.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, if I go to the beach, I love it.
Speaker 1: But you know, if I go for more than a week,
Speaker 1: I feel like I have to tell the hotel how
Speaker 1: to run their business. So you know, I work is
Speaker 1: in me. I love work. I think it's a great thing.
Speaker 1: And yes I do look back, but actually people help
Speaker 1: me look back because people come up to me and say, hey,
Speaker 1: I want to thank you. You put my son in business,
Speaker 1: you build a you know, Draper University gave me a
Speaker 1: total transformation for my life. I was on Meet the Drapers.
Speaker 1: It was a fabulous thing. Those things come to me,
Speaker 1: and what's great is that people will come to me
Speaker 1: and go, wow, you know, somebody talked about you in Brazil,
Speaker 1: and then they talked about you in Saudi, and then
Speaker 1: they talked about you in Chicago, and then they and
Speaker 1: I heard about you in all these different cities. You've
Speaker 1: clearly done something. And I think just by grabbing this
Speaker 1: one thing, which was to spread entrepreneurship and venture capital
Speaker 1: around the world, I do. I do get to look
Speaker 1: back and say, wow, almost everywhere in the world they
Speaker 1: have venture capital, and almost everywhere in the world they
Speaker 1: have entrepreneurs, and that was not true when I got started.
Speaker 1: It was Silicon Valley in Root one twenty eight and
Speaker 1: nobody else. And so now that has had a big
Speaker 1: that that has made me feel very good. But there's
Speaker 1: so much more to do, and I'm hitting my stride.
Speaker 1: I mean, Dad, everything's great, you know, and any I
Speaker 1: can do little things that can have big impacts. So
Speaker 1: work continues to be more and more fascinating as I
Speaker 1: get older. I love it.
Speaker 2: Going back to your journey with bitcoin, what was your
Speaker 2: first discovery of that that someone tell you about it?
Speaker 2: Did you see it in a form and when did
Speaker 2: it click for you? What was your ahull moment?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Joel Jarman mentioned that I should look into it,
Speaker 1: and he was my associate at the time, and he
Speaker 1: introduced me to Peter Vissin and Peter told me all
Speaker 1: about it. And that was twenty ten, so very very
Speaker 1: early bitcoin. Was it four dollars this year? Wow? Dollars
Speaker 1: per bitcoin? And they started tell me about it and
Speaker 1: I went, this is exactly what I thought was going
Speaker 1: to happen. We were going to have digital money. And
Speaker 1: they said, what do you mean, And I said, you know,
Speaker 1: I talked to this guy in Korea who was from Korea,
Speaker 1: who was talking about how half of the people in
Speaker 1: Seoul were playing this game and I think it was
Speaker 1: called Lineage and that game he paid real dollars for
Speaker 1: a digital sword for his son for his birthday, and
Speaker 1: I went what. And then I thought, oh, my god,
Speaker 1: real money, digital products. And then I thought digital money.
Speaker 1: And so I thought that eventually digital money would happen
Speaker 1: and go game to game, but I think people just
Speaker 1: did it within games, so that there was you know,
Speaker 1: gold for Farmville and something else for some other game.
Speaker 1: I thought those things would connect and they'd all be
Speaker 1: a currency that we would all use, and that way
Speaker 1: it would be game to game or you know, all
Speaker 1: that trading would happen and we'd have multiple currencies that
Speaker 1: we would all use in this virtual world. But then
Speaker 1: bitcoin showed up. Something I wasn't thinking about at all
Speaker 1: was the security of the money in game, because I
Speaker 1: was thinking, oh, it's just play money in the game.
Speaker 1: But when they came up with bitcoin, that the ability
Speaker 1: to have a trusted third party that was all software,
Speaker 1: that was a major breakthrough, and it jumped out at
Speaker 1: me and I was intrigued enough to make an investment
Speaker 1: in coin lab and in the bitcoin with Peter. But
Speaker 1: it wasn't until I lost the bitcoin to melt Cox
Speaker 1: and bitcoin only dropped a little bit in value on
Speaker 1: that news that I knew that there were lots of uses,
Speaker 1: and so I went and I dug into all these uses.
Speaker 1: And it was like people who were unbanked or using
Speaker 1: it to pay each other and build their own little economy.
Speaker 1: People who were making money in the US were using
Speaker 1: it to remit money to another country. People who ran
Speaker 1: big businesses were using bitcoin to pay employees out there,
Speaker 1: and you know, in lands where there were no banks.
Speaker 1: So it was clearly going to improve the world economy.
Speaker 1: And I thought, wow, that's really exciting. And then I
Speaker 1: ran into this guy, Sebastian Serrano from Argentina, and he said,
Speaker 1: my family has created a fortune three times in the
Speaker 1: last thirty years, and every time we've lost it to
Speaker 1: currency manipulation by the government. Bitcoin is our savior. Bitcoin
Speaker 1: is this is going to save our business. We're going
Speaker 1: to be able to build something of great value and
Speaker 1: keep it. And that was where I knew that bitcoin
Speaker 1: would be great store of value, but it would also
Speaker 1: be a currency that at least that country, Argentina would
Speaker 1: want to use for their economy. And then you know,
Speaker 1: of course El Salvador followed, and then and then Panama
Speaker 1: and Japan and Malta and Gibraltar, and they all made
Speaker 1: bitcoin a national currency and it started a really you
Speaker 1: know steam roll, and now bitcoin is actually challenging fiat currency.
Speaker 1: People are saying, wait, why do I hold dollars? If
Speaker 1: I can buy my food, clothing, and shelter all in bitcoin,
Speaker 1: dollars I know are going to depreciate in value. Even
Speaker 1: if I'm I've got it in a you know, CD
Speaker 1: or whatever I put my money into, I'm still losing
Speaker 1: it to inflation. If I hold, spend, and invest, and
Speaker 1: pay taxes all in bitcoin. First of all, the accounting
Speaker 1: is easy because it's all done on the blockchain and
Speaker 1: it's all honest. And second of all, it's a better way,
Speaker 1: more efficient, better way to run your business. So eventually
Speaker 1: we're going to get there. So that's where I'm going.
Speaker 1: That's where I'm going. I believe the world is going.
Speaker 1: And you know what, I think both Warren Buffett and
Speaker 1: Jamie Diamond believe that too, and they're scared to death
Speaker 1: and they're going, but I have all these dollars, and
Speaker 1: when there's a run on the dollar, they're going to
Speaker 1: be at the bank saying, get me my dollars out
Speaker 1: and get them into bitcoin. I mean it will be
Speaker 1: like I mean, you should have seen the panic on
Speaker 1: people's face when Silicon Valley Bank stumbled yeah we had.
Speaker 1: I had about fifteen companies call me and say, I
Speaker 1: need emergency money to pay my payroll for the next
Speaker 1: two weeks because all my money's in Silicon Valley Bank.
Speaker 1: So after that, I said, Okay, any company we fund
Speaker 1: your treasury has to have some of the money in
Speaker 1: a big bank. And everybody goes, yeah, yeah, of course,
Speaker 1: some of your money in a small bank. And they're
Speaker 1: saying why, I say, because the US government can still
Speaker 1: bail out a small bank, not a big bank. And
Speaker 1: then some of your money in bitcoin. And they're saying
Speaker 1: why why bitcoin? And I say, because if these banks
Speaker 1: go out of business and small you are personally liable.
Speaker 1: You and your border personally liable for payroll for your company.
Speaker 1: And you might have a company with one hundred thousand
Speaker 1: employees and you're personally liable for no matter what happens
Speaker 1: to the banks, and so if you have bitcoin to
Speaker 1: cover it, you're good. And I think that you know,
Speaker 1: more and more women now have bitcoin wallets, and women
Speaker 1: control about eighty five percent of retail spending. So when
Speaker 1: the retailer recognizes that they can save two percent every
Speaker 1: time somebody buys something in bitcoin, they're going to start
Speaker 1: saying bitcoin accepted. And then at some point they're going
Speaker 1: to say only bitcoin accepted. And that is the point
Speaker 1: at which everybody's going to run to the bank and
Speaker 1: try to get their dollars out, and they're all going
Speaker 1: to go at once, and it's going to be chaos.
Speaker 1: People who have bitcoin, who just thought ahead and bought
Speaker 1: some bitcoin are going to be able to relax that
Speaker 1: day and go okay, so the dollars are gone. I
Speaker 1: had my dad gave me a million dollar note and
Speaker 1: the million dollar note was a Confederate million dollars. Confederate money. Wow,
Speaker 1: but the South. I said, oh great, what can I
Speaker 1: spend it on it? And he said nothing, And I said,
Speaker 1: what do you mean? He said, the South lost the war,
Speaker 1: and so everybody wanted to They printed money. It was inflationary,
Speaker 1: it was all this stuff. But the only dollars anybody
Speaker 1: would take were the Union dollars because they won the war,
Speaker 1: and so the Confederate money became worthless. The same thing
Speaker 1: is happening now. It's happening slowly, but it's happening. We're
Speaker 1: huge inflation in the dollar. It's getting to be worth
Speaker 1: less and less in a shorter and shorter time. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: the purchases in power a bitcoin it's much higher relative
Speaker 1: to the dollar. So you know, no wonder Warren Buffett's screaming,
Speaker 1: yeah Jamie now and no wonder Jamie Diamond screaming. They're
Speaker 1: controlling all the dollars. It's not going to go well
Speaker 1: for them unless they unless they get on the boat.
Speaker 2: So, Tim, what are your thoughts on what the future
Speaker 2: of currency may look like in context of what you're saying.
Speaker 2: Is it that they solve the fiat currency problem by
Speaker 2: making it digital. Maybe a CBDC, but it's backed by goal,
Speaker 2: it's going to be backed by bitcoin, Or to what
Speaker 2: you're saying, we are going to a bigcoin standard. It's
Speaker 2: not going to happen overnight, but maybe in fifty years
Speaker 2: that is the case.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's less than fifty years, but I
Speaker 1: think it's ten. But I was optimistic on my last prediction,
Speaker 1: so maybe it's more than five. But I have always
Speaker 1: looked at stable coins as a bridge to bitcoin. I
Speaker 1: think eventually we're all going to bitcoin, but stable coins
Speaker 1: are a good bridge, and they're all based on the
Speaker 1: dollar or the dollar, euro, yen or the something. Right. Well,
Speaker 1: when the dollar collapses and inflates out of business, so
Speaker 1: does the USDC and USDT, So you've got to I mean, sure,
Speaker 1: it's more efficient, it's a better way to move dollars around.
Speaker 1: Those things are better. It's just better to hold. But
Speaker 1: it's really a bridge to bitcoin, where you have a
Speaker 1: currency where we know how many there are out there.
Speaker 1: No government can go in there and start screwing around
Speaker 1: with it and change the number of you know, nira
Speaker 1: or pesos or whatever, just because they're the king of
Speaker 1: their land. So we're gonna this is coming, do you foresee?
Speaker 2: Though, similar to what happened with gold. You remember the
Speaker 2: United States had confiscated people's goal i know, bigcoin.
Speaker 1: Due to these, they standardized on gold and then they
Speaker 1: went uh oh yeah, And that was a good thing
Speaker 1: because going first going on the gold standard was good,
Speaker 1: and then going off the gold standard was good because
Speaker 1: when you were on the gold standard, you knew exactly
Speaker 1: what was in the currency, and going off the gold standard,
Speaker 1: you allowed people to move more currency based on the
Speaker 1: full faith and credit of the American government. But now
Speaker 1: what happens with bitcoin. You get the trust that you
Speaker 1: had with gold with bitcoin, and then you have the
Speaker 1: second the second layer, double second and third layer. Are
Speaker 1: they called layers somehow, I'm a metal block of bitcoin.
Speaker 1: So you got Bitcoin that's a blockchain and it's a
Speaker 1: slow blockchain. Then you've got the second what do they
Speaker 1: call it? Layer two? Yeah, so you got the layer
Speaker 1: twos and layer threes. They're like when you go off
Speaker 1: the gold standard. So they allow people to go off
Speaker 1: and go trade as much as they want on other blockchains,
Speaker 1: on other side chains, and then come back and equalize
Speaker 1: on the Bitcoin blockchain. So they'll go off and they'll
Speaker 1: trade on Lightning Network or on you know, any any
Speaker 1: number of these side chains, and then they'll, after a
Speaker 1: lot of transactions, then they will remedy or or reenact
Speaker 1: on the Bitcoin blockchain, which moves slower but keeps absolutely
Speaker 1: perfect records. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So do you foresee or do you believe that the
Speaker 2: ETFs are almost a Trojan Horse. They're good in the
Speaker 2: short term. They allow people to get exposure. Takes bitcoin
Speaker 2: into the mainstream, into Wall Street, but you don't actually
Speaker 2: hold it. I believe in self custody. What what what
Speaker 2: would be your recommendation to investors who are watching listening
Speaker 2: to this.
Speaker 1: You know it's easier to hold in the ETF than
Speaker 1: it is to do self custody. It's just easy. You
Speaker 1: call your broker, I want to buy bitcoin, Get me
Speaker 1: some bitcoin. It gets you to the bitcoin. It's like easy.
Speaker 1: But all you're doing with an ETF is betting on
Speaker 1: it going up or down relative to the dollar. Well,
Speaker 1: if the dollar goes away, I'm not sure what happens
Speaker 1: to your ETF, but I do know that I would
Speaker 1: rather hold an ETF of bitcoin than to hold on
Speaker 1: to a dollar. But I'd rather hold the bitcoin itself
Speaker 1: than to hold an ETF a bitcoin. Yeah, so there's
Speaker 1: a a three three different levels of what I perceived
Speaker 1: to be risk. And yes, you're exactly right. In fact,
Speaker 1: I haven't ever bought an ETF, but I'm kind of
Speaker 1: tempted by Kathy Woods ETF because she's really cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've had Kathy on We've had a lot of
Speaker 2: conversations around these things. And and obviously she's she's going
Speaker 2: to be in favor of the ETF because ARC has one.
Speaker 2: But you know, I tried to tell people that I
Speaker 2: come across, look, okay, maybe dabbling ETF, but wholesome on
Speaker 2: a on your private hardware wallet, just keep it. It's yours,
Speaker 2: your private keys. No one can take that away from you.
Speaker 1: No question. I mean, if you best advice bitcoin on Ledger,
Speaker 1: yeah you want to do something that was what that
Speaker 1: was a b o L was what everybody was saying
Speaker 1: when they when Silicon Valley Bank went out of business.
Speaker 1: They were all going bo L or boc bitcoin on
Speaker 1: uh coin based, but it was it was bo L.
Speaker 1: You know, bitcoin on Ledger and and Ledger is now
Speaker 1: actually easier to use than it used to be, so
Speaker 1: that's kind of nice. The new Ledgers stacks, it's true.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they keep them doing iterations and it's getting much
Speaker 2: better and easier for the common average Joe to use it.
Speaker 1: So that's great. Yeah, those other the old ones were
Speaker 1: very cluegy, but now Ledger is a great thing.
Speaker 2: Now you mentioned earlier you bought thirty thousand big coins
Speaker 2: from the US Marshall's service auction. If I'm not mistaking,
Speaker 2: you said you're still holding those bigcoins and you continue
Speaker 2: to answer your portfolio, So is this a long term.
Speaker 1: But I've invested some, I actually have bought more, invested's
Speaker 1: given some away. But yeah, I'm a huddler, you know.
Speaker 1: And it's the easiest thing in the world to do.
Speaker 1: You put it away and you just go, yeah, that's it. Fact,
Speaker 1: I don't even know if somebody said here, you got
Speaker 1: to get all your bitcoin out, I go, I think
Speaker 1: I need like fifteen people to do that.
Speaker 2: So in addition to your bitcoin holdings, I know you're
Speaker 2: fund to invest in different companies like Proppy, I've read tasos.
Speaker 2: Are there other all coin projects if you want to
Speaker 2: call them, that you're investing in. Are you investing in
Speaker 2: companies that are building an infrastructure like your wallet services
Speaker 2: and so forth?
Speaker 1: Yeah, we have Arkham. We did a big investment of Arkham.
Speaker 1: We think that what they've done, that guy is just
Speaker 1: so brilliant and he's done extraordinary things and he's he's
Speaker 1: putting names attached to bitcoin wallets. And of course the
Speaker 1: US Marshal's Office is always very interested in what they're
Speaker 1: doing over at Arkham, and then they have a token
Speaker 1: which people need to use to find out who is
Speaker 1: who owns what wallet or what wallets are doing what
Speaker 1: and and that token has done very very well too,
Speaker 1: So that's been a great success for us. We've had
Speaker 1: bezos bank or Propy way back when we did handshake. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so we've had quite a few, and more recently we've
Speaker 1: got a bunch of investments in companies that are issuing
Speaker 1: tokens for one purpose or another. But before anybody issues
Speaker 1: a token in my portfolio, I always say, what is
Speaker 1: the purpose? Why is someone going to pay real fiat
Speaker 1: dollars or real bitcoin dollar bitcoins to buy your token? Why?
Speaker 1: And they've got to have a real reason and after
Speaker 1: just other than speculation or whatever. Right, And sure, DeFi
Speaker 1: is important to create more liquidity in the marketplace and
Speaker 1: all that stuff, But I think the most important use
Speaker 1: is of bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are retail use, which
Speaker 1: is coming, investment use, and running businesses use because you're
Speaker 1: going to want to run your business without having accounting, auditing, bookkeeping, whatever,
Speaker 1: you want to run it just that way. And then
Speaker 1: smart contracts because you can create a great contract say,
Speaker 1: you know, I invest in you with twenty bitcoin, you
Speaker 1: give me ten percent of your business, and we're off
Speaker 1: to the races, and we can do that all on
Speaker 1: a smart contract, and even in the negotiation we can
Speaker 1: tweak the smart contract and then everything gets written up
Speaker 1: in legal ees. But the smart contract is the thing
Speaker 1: that drives the whole deal. So that I think those
Speaker 1: are probably the best uses now, all sorts of uses
Speaker 1: to the blockchain, all sorts of uses to a wallet.
Speaker 1: You can hold everything from your passport to your real
Speaker 1: estate deed, to your bitcoin, to your ordinals, to your
Speaker 1: whatever ruins. All that stuff can be held on and
Speaker 1: eventually will just be a part of your phone whatever.
Speaker 1: That ends up being.
Speaker 2: Ryan question about the future of fundraising. Obviously you're in
Speaker 2: the venture world, you're investing in companies, but we saw
Speaker 2: in twenty seventeen the ICO boom. Do you feel that
Speaker 2: is the future of fundraising where you can crowdsource globally
Speaker 2: and do with companies and entrepreneurs still need folks like yourself,
Speaker 2: or maybe you can serve as a middleman to help
Speaker 2: facilitate an ICO so to speak.
Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I think venture
Speaker 1: capitalists will start being more value add particularly if good
Speaker 1: entrepreneurs can raise money from the masses some other way.
Speaker 1: And for a while there it did look like icos
Speaker 1: were just going to be the way everybody's going to
Speaker 1: raise their money through an ICO, and in effect what
Speaker 1: they were doing is day one for their business. They
Speaker 1: were going public. Yeah, and that's interesting. The SEC went
Speaker 1: after all the groups that were trying to comply and
Speaker 1: they left alone FTX and I mean no method to
Speaker 1: their men. So yeah, I think that there will be
Speaker 1: other ways to raise money, and that's just Tokens are
Speaker 1: a type of ownership. Stock is another type of ownership,
Speaker 1: and when we invest in a company, we usually take both.
Speaker 2: That makes sense, Tim, because you brought up the SEC
Speaker 2: and I just recently had Hester purs Commissioner on the
Speaker 2: podcast and we were talking about cryptoregulations and so forth.
Speaker 2: But going back to twenty eighteen, you spoke to now
Speaker 2: chair Gary Ginzer, but he was I think he had
Speaker 2: I don't think he would. No, he was not at
Speaker 2: the SEC.
Speaker 1: Then now that he's a professor at MIT.
Speaker 2: Yes, and you had an incredible foresight where you told
Speaker 2: him how this industry would be attacked with the press
Speaker 2: mentions the weaponization of regulators, the government, friends being called up,
Speaker 2: and I don't know, I can't we can't prove this,
Speaker 2: but most likely Jamie.
Speaker 1: Became one of those weapons.
Speaker 2: Yes, what the hell do you look back?
Speaker 1: I mean looking back?
Speaker 2: Are you like you were like an oracle? I mean,
Speaker 2: do you foretold exactly what's going to happen?
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I've lived a long time, so I
Speaker 1: can predict with better accuracy than somebody who hasn't lived
Speaker 1: a long time. But I've also lived meeting entrepreneurs and
Speaker 1: they are always telling me about what they think the
Speaker 1: future is going to look like. And so whenever I
Speaker 1: hear one, I go, huh, how's that going to affect
Speaker 1: everything else? And that's where, you know, I kind of
Speaker 1: feel like, Okay, I do have a little bit of
Speaker 1: an edge in being able to predict what the future
Speaker 1: will hold. And it's kind of funny because people come
Speaker 1: to me and they go, yeah, that thing you said
Speaker 1: ten years ago happen And I look at him and
Speaker 1: I go, what thing? I don't remember? I just say
Speaker 1: what I just tell it the way it is, and
Speaker 1: I tell it the way I expected to go. And
Speaker 1: then ten years later people go Oh yeah, I went
Speaker 1: just the way you said. And it's nice of them
Speaker 1: to remember that I did it. I said it, but
Speaker 1: generally I don't remember.
Speaker 2: So, Tim, what do you think about the legal battle? So,
Speaker 2: because you know, Ripple, I think was the first to
Speaker 2: really get to the big major lawsuit.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: They came out with that with a partial victory where
Speaker 2: the judge mentioned intrinsically, these tokens are our securities. It's
Speaker 2: very much in line with Howie. It wasn't the oranges
Speaker 2: or the orange trees or orange groves. It was Howie's
Speaker 2: packaging his scheme, Ganser's taking losses in courts. Right, Ripple,
Speaker 2: you got the greyscale lawsuit and much more. And part
Speaker 2: of your prediction was eventually the incumbents and the people
Speaker 2: who are fighting end up adopting this. What are your
Speaker 2: thoughts on where we're at in that timeline.
Speaker 1: We're getting close. We have at least one and maybe
Speaker 1: both presidential candidates looking to adopt bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies
Speaker 1: as a way to encourage innovation because they know it's happening.
Speaker 1: I mean, the real killer is all this innovation is happening,
Speaker 1: and there are Americans, many Americans are coming up with
Speaker 1: these innovative things, and then they geo fence the US,
Speaker 1: in effect not allowing anybody in the US to try
Speaker 1: their product. And all those great products are happening outside
Speaker 1: the US, and all those customers are able to innovate
Speaker 1: from that new platform, and we're not because there's this
Speaker 1: big dark cloud that is the SEC today, and the
Speaker 1: SEC is living in the past. It's an eighty year
Speaker 1: old set of laws that they're clinging to, and it's
Speaker 1: just time to change. You know, the world's moved on.
Speaker 1: And if you want to compete in this world, if
Speaker 1: you want to be the US and still compete and
Speaker 1: still encourage all the innovation, all the great things that
Speaker 1: happen in the Silicon Valley, you've got to embrace this.
Speaker 1: And I think both both presidential candidates understand that Trump did.
Speaker 1: First he said, I'm going to be the crypto president.
Speaker 1: You're Againstler's going to be fired. I'm going to do
Speaker 1: it and uh, and so he grasped it early. But
Speaker 1: I'm also seeing Kamala have the same some of the
Speaker 1: same thoughts. So I'm I'm encouraged that we're getting to
Speaker 1: that place where it's it's either embraced or accepted. I
Speaker 1: mean it's hard. They're fifty fifties, fifty million Americans with wallets,
Speaker 1: with bigcoin wallets or crypto wallets. That is not a
Speaker 1: voting block you can ignore.
Speaker 2: And tim like and only for my own anecdotal evidence,
Speaker 2: but my podcast community, family members and friends, there's both
Speaker 2: Democrats and Republicans trading and using this technology. They're not thinking, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm a Republican I must use crypto, or I'm a
Speaker 2: Democrat I shouldn't. They're just it's just a technology, and
Speaker 2: it's crazy that it's become political. But maybe that's the
Speaker 2: way to get legislation through, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm one of those rare people who went to
Speaker 1: the Giants Dodgers game and wore a Cubs hat. I've
Speaker 1: met both presidential candidates and liked them both, and I'm
Speaker 1: still trying to figure out whether I need to come
Speaker 1: down on one side or the other. Both great people.
Speaker 1: I mean that's one thing you don't get from the press,
Speaker 1: but both great people both have their heart in the
Speaker 1: right place.
Speaker 2: Do you think twenty twenty fives a year we see
Speaker 2: some legislation, make it up to a president.
Speaker 1: We got one.
Speaker 2: We got to build out of the House this year
Speaker 2: fit twenty one. I'm hearing talk from Chuck Schumer and
Speaker 2: top Republicans that we can get something through the lean
Speaker 2: duck session through the Senate. Do you think twenty twenty
Speaker 2: five is a year.
Speaker 1: Well, what I'm hoping is not that there is some
Speaker 1: legislation that crosses. In fact, actually Clinton was brilliant when
Speaker 1: the Internet came out. Everybody said tax that Internet, regulate
Speaker 1: that Internet, get rid of that Internet. They were doing
Speaker 1: the same thing that they're doing to bitcoin net, and
Speaker 1: he just said, let's just see how it goes. And
Speaker 1: by seeing how it goes and not putting like a
Speaker 1: dark cloud over every entrepreneur trying something new, he he
Speaker 1: really allowed us to create some incredible businesses, trillion dollar
Speaker 1: businesses that would have been created outside the US if
Speaker 1: he had regulated or taxed the Internet. And so part
Speaker 1: of me says, let it rip. But since they already
Speaker 1: are messing with us through the SEC. Yeah, some clear
Speaker 1: regulation would be awesome because it's clear and then we
Speaker 1: know how to operate. But I think you need people
Speaker 1: who kind of understand what's going on in the future
Speaker 1: to try to regulate today because the fact that I
Speaker 1: can't airdrop in the US is ludicrous. The fact that
Speaker 1: I can't bet on a baseball game in the US
Speaker 1: with a with a crypto bet is ludicrous. The fact
Speaker 1: that I can't, Oh, we've got entirely different rules for
Speaker 1: giving stock away and giving crypto away. Why why is it?
Speaker 1: I mean, if it's a currency, it's a currency. But
Speaker 1: if they're they're going to call it an asset, it
Speaker 1: should be treated like all the other assets. It is.
Speaker 1: They have put so much of a you know, I
Speaker 1: call it the dark cloud, but it's there. They're overlapping
Speaker 1: regulations that get in the way of progress of innovation,
Speaker 1: of technology and all that progress, all that innovation, all
Speaker 1: that technology is taking place in other countries. And if
Speaker 1: we don't wake up soon, we're going to lose all
Speaker 1: that regulator, I mean, all that innovation, and regulation really
Speaker 1: does kill innovation. So the regulators have to be open
Speaker 1: to future, allow future experiments to happen. I was at
Speaker 1: this Harvard Business School reunion and the guy said, the
Speaker 1: success of a business long term is how many experiments
Speaker 1: an hour that business runs. And he compared having an
Speaker 1: idea and a big business and having to get it
Speaker 1: through your boss and your boss's boss, and possibly before
Speaker 1: it eventually gets to see the light. Versus an innovator
Speaker 1: who comes up with something and he goes to fifty
Speaker 1: different venture capitalists on sand Hill Road and he only
Speaker 1: needs one of them to say yes. I think that
Speaker 1: that attitude needs to happen in innovation, and the regulators
Speaker 1: need to allow things to rip for a while before
Speaker 1: they think, hey, something dangerous has happened, as opposed to
Speaker 1: thinking something dangerous might happen, and so whatever might happen,
Speaker 1: we're going to make illegal now. I mean, that's really
Speaker 1: backward thinking, and that will push the US into the
Speaker 1: dark ages, and you might see countries like El Salvador
Speaker 1: and the New Argentina and probably Switzerland and Singapore become
Speaker 1: the super wealthy countries because they're the ones who are
Speaker 1: letting it rip. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't tell you how many stories I've heard
Speaker 2: about folks who want to come to the United States
Speaker 2: here in Dubai, Singapore and support They're like, yeah, it's
Speaker 2: not worth it there. Our legal team is saying stay away.
Speaker 2: And it's sad, and it's a lot of jobs that
Speaker 2: could be here and benefits to the economy and wealth creation.
Speaker 2: It really sucks the things I went.
Speaker 1: And we would be customers of those companies. I mean,
Speaker 1: there are lots of really interesting apps and products that
Speaker 1: are not going to make it here because they're all
Speaker 1: the lunites that don't want anything to change.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Tim, I would love to get your take on
Speaker 2: what you going to what you expect for the remainder
Speaker 2: of this bull market. Twenty twenty three. Bitcoin ran up
Speaker 2: at the beginning of this year, incredible run up, a
Speaker 2: new all time high before the having for bitcoin because
Speaker 2: of the ETF buying and we got fed ray cuts.
Speaker 2: Global liquidity's on the rise again. They're going to start
Speaker 2: the money printers again to service the debt. What is
Speaker 2: your outlook for this market? Do you see a blow
Speaker 2: off top in twenty twenty five? Do you have a
Speaker 2: bitcoin price prediction?
Speaker 1: My bitcoin price prediction, so my first one was ten
Speaker 1: thousand dollars by twenty It was in twenty fourteen. I
Speaker 1: made the prediction. I said three years twenty seventeen, ten
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. Everybody said, what are you talking about. It's
Speaker 1: one hundred and eighty dollars. You're off by like two destmints.
Speaker 1: I said, it's going to hit it and it did,
Speaker 1: and then it dropped down to four thousand, and I
Speaker 1: at four thousand, I said, okay, it's going to hit
Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty thousand in four years. And that
Speaker 1: was in twenty eighteen, and it didn't. And part of
Speaker 1: that was all the fear, uncertainty, in doubt spread by
Speaker 1: the SEC, and that slowed down growth. It slowed down innovation,
Speaker 1: it slowed down progress, it slowed down technology, I mean
Speaker 1: just generally technology, and and so it didn't hit that
Speaker 1: number yet. Well, eventually the government is going to have
Speaker 1: to come to see the light. And the moment they
Speaker 1: see the light two hundred, they're going it's gonna blow
Speaker 1: through two hundred and fifty thousand dollars so fast. And
Speaker 1: it might be bitcoin on the way up, and it
Speaker 1: might be a dollar on the way down, but it's
Speaker 1: going to blow through two hundred and fifty thousand.
Speaker 2: When you say the government sees a light, are you
Speaker 2: talking about legislation? But also with Trump and some of those,
Speaker 2: Senator of Cynthia Limits proposed bigcoin as a US reserve asset.
Speaker 2: Are you talking about both things or one of those?
Speaker 1: Oh? I think any government should think in terms of
Speaker 1: bitcoin as a as a as an asset is a
Speaker 1: great thing because it can as a reserve asset. It's like,
Speaker 1: you know, we hold a bunch of oil, or we
Speaker 1: hold a bunch of gold or whatever. It's a way
Speaker 1: of holding a commodity that you know is worth something
Speaker 1: outside the US, not just here, and so it can
Speaker 1: bail us out of debts or trouble or whatever. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I think if you're running a company the size of
Speaker 1: a US government, you should probably have ways of covering
Speaker 1: your debts, your obligations, your expenses that are not your
Speaker 1: own currency, because as we all know, if the dollar
Speaker 1: gets a lot of inflation we got you know, the
Speaker 1: dollar is not going to be worth for I much,
Speaker 1: people won't trust them and they are going to run
Speaker 1: to bitcoin.
Speaker 2: I'll look to get your thoughts on the different blockchains
Speaker 2: that are out there. How you see the future running
Speaker 2: on blockchains. There's a lot of interoperability being built right
Speaker 2: now with stable coins and tokenization and so forth. And
Speaker 2: what's your knowledge of how the dot com boom and
Speaker 2: Web one, Web two point zero? Do you see there's
Speaker 2: going to be one hundred blockchains in different parts of
Speaker 2: the world, or they will be maybe ten kind of
Speaker 2: aside from bitcoin. Bitcoin is different. But like these smart
Speaker 2: contract platforms like eth and Avalanche and whatever it may be,
Speaker 2: what do you envision will happen there?
Speaker 1: Competition is a good thing. It's good to have multiple alternatives.
Speaker 1: That's one thing that's going on in my head. The
Speaker 1: other is that you're starting to see a consolidation around bitcoin.
Speaker 1: Bitcoin is a bigger and bigger percent of all the
Speaker 1: tokens out there. The value of bitcoin is a bigger percentage.
Speaker 1: I think then almost all of them put together.
Speaker 2: And that.
Speaker 1: Number, the bitcoin percentage is a percentage of all the
Speaker 1: coins out there, is growing. So some of those currencies
Speaker 1: are going to have some trouble getting support. If you
Speaker 1: don't have support, your valueless and nobody trades in you.
Speaker 1: So there will be some that go. The ones that
Speaker 1: will survive are the ones that, as I mentioned, have
Speaker 1: a real purpose and people have to use them to
Speaker 1: buy something some product or service that they can't buy
Speaker 1: some other way. So I think you will always have
Speaker 1: I mean, like right now, we have Microsoft, and they
Speaker 1: were the operating system for everybody for years, But then
Speaker 1: there were companies like into It or whatever that that
Speaker 1: kind of were able to survive even though Microsoft was
Speaker 1: the center of gravity and it was where all the spreadsheets,
Speaker 1: in the word processor and the data pass they all
Speaker 1: went into Microsoft. So I actually think that the DeFi
Speaker 1: and the ordinals and the smart contracts and whatever else
Speaker 1: is all going to go into Bitcoin. But there are
Speaker 1: other all current all currencies that have specific uses that
Speaker 1: are going to be valuable that there aren't on pitcoin.
Speaker 2: I want to ask you about AI, I know, running
Speaker 2: up on time. Earlier you talked about your digital representation.
Speaker 2: Do you f that is the future of how we
Speaker 2: may communicate, how content creation may be done, where our
Speaker 2: representations may be doing this interview versus you know specifically
Speaker 2: and overall, your thoughts on AI impact on the job
Speaker 2: market and what we may expect in the next ten
Speaker 2: years seems very disruptive.
Speaker 1: Well, as Adam, my son Adam Draper says, AI is
Speaker 1: going to take all our jobs. So how you think
Speaker 1: about that is, well, then how do I use AI
Speaker 1: and create a different job? And humans are innovative. When
Speaker 1: the corseless carriage came out, humans thought, oh, well, this
Speaker 1: is the end of humanity because people are just going
Speaker 1: to be driving around. When electricity came out, they thought
Speaker 1: the gods were after us and the Internet came out,
Speaker 1: they said a lot of the same things they're saying now.
Speaker 1: They're saying, well, wait, you know, how do I control
Speaker 1: my patent or how do I you know, they were
Speaker 1: panicked about that. Humans figure out how to adapt, and
Speaker 1: we are adapting faster and faster and faster, and we
Speaker 1: get more and more innovation. And with AI, our innovation
Speaker 1: is going to take a huge leap forward. So better
Speaker 1: to get on the train than try to fight it.
Speaker 1: And I think if you fight it, it's a losing
Speaker 1: battle because it's too good. It's so awesome to use AI,
Speaker 1: so awesome. Yeah, I'm I'm looking forward to having robots
Speaker 1: that go around and have AI and they can be
Speaker 1: intelligent and I can talk to my robot and say, hey,
Speaker 1: I forgot my wallet at the restaurant. Will you go
Speaker 1: pick it up? And you know, and if it's a
Speaker 1: drone and you know, it can go and shoot over
Speaker 1: there and say this is you know, my owner's wallet
Speaker 1: and pick it up. I think all those things are
Speaker 1: going to happen. It's going to be really amazing. Also,
Speaker 1: transportation and space, Wow, they're changing in a big way.
Speaker 1: And a lot of that is AI. It's like you
Speaker 1: ever get in a way moa car or a cruise car.
Speaker 1: Oh god, it's fantastic. It's great experience.
Speaker 2: Do you think we're at the start of another industrial
Speaker 2: revolution with all these technologies?
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're in a We're in a trans transactional and
Speaker 1: transportive revolution that has to be reinvented. We got to
Speaker 1: figure out what what it is we call it, but
Speaker 1: basically it's AI big coin, new forms of transportation and space,
Speaker 1: and new forms of medicine in the body. Those are
Speaker 1: rock in our world. It's going to be, you know,
Speaker 1: really awesome when all those things are going to do.
Speaker 1: So stay tuned and hold on to your hat amazing self. Tim.
Speaker 2: I got some wrap up questions here for you. First,
Speaker 2: if you could create your own metaverse, where would you go?
Speaker 1: If I were going to create my own metaverse, where
Speaker 1: would I go? Oh? I probably watched football and I
Speaker 1: would interview entrepreneurs all day long.
Speaker 2: And favorite food yeah, those real quick burgers. Favorite musician
Speaker 2: or Ben.
Speaker 1: Well, it was Taylor Swift at the beginning. Now it
Speaker 1: might be Doja Cat, But then, of course I'm old.
Speaker 1: So I also like Aerosmith and the Beatles and Elton
Speaker 1: John and a number of others. So yeah, every movie.
Speaker 1: Oh I love movies where the entrepreneur is the hero.
Speaker 1: So I liked a couple of great ones with Tom
Speaker 1: Cruise in them. The when he when he's the agent
Speaker 1: for the football player and he takes off and he says,
Speaker 1: who's with me? Yeah, that was a great moment. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Jerry McGuire. And then Risky Business where he you know,
Speaker 1: he runs in effect of House Ofville repute in his house.
Speaker 1: And I like and I like science fiction, but I
Speaker 1: actually like reading science fiction more than I like and
Speaker 1: reading comic books more than I like watching the movies,
Speaker 1: because the movies it all feels sort of normal. But
Speaker 1: you read it, read the books and you're going, oh god,
Speaker 1: that could happen, and you have you have time to
Speaker 1: sort of ruminate on it, think about it, and so
Speaker 1: things like Dune, everything by Asimov, Foundation I Robot, all
Speaker 1: that stuff. I like Stranger in a Strange Land another
Speaker 1: great book. So yeah, there you go, books, movieseter.
Speaker 2: All right, Tim Pleasure, thank you so much. I have
Speaker 2: to have you back on when bitcoin hits two fifty.
Speaker 1: Fifty, you bet give me a call. We'll see thank you, okay,
Speaker 1: thanks Tony eighty two, third two