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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Pose America. I'm John Lovett. I just wrapped

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<v Speaker 1>a great conversation with the writer David Sedaris, who's out

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<v Speaker 1>with a new collection of essays called The Land and

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<v Speaker 1>Its People. We talked about his father's support for Trump,

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<v Speaker 1>why no one cared when David was bit by a dog,

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<v Speaker 1>what you can't talk about in a healthy relationship, Moby dick,

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<v Speaker 1>international McDonald's the word queer, punching down, why he avoids

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<v Speaker 1>Pride parades, and what he fears most about getting old

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<v Speaker 1>and speaking of pride over on the Loved or Leave

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<v Speaker 1>A channel. This week we are doing a Pride special

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<v Speaker 1>with markin Delcado from Hacks, Drag Race winner Mikey Meeks,

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<v Speaker 1>Osco Kotska, and the legend himself, Bruce Falanche, plus many

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<v Speaker 1>more guests. Check out Love It or Leave It every

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<v Speaker 1>Wednesday and Friday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, now, let's go to my conversation with David Adairs.

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<v Speaker 1>David saidares so nice to meet you, So nice to

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<v Speaker 1>have you here. Oh, thanks so much for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>Ten years ago, after Trump won the first time, you

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<v Speaker 1>wrote an essay for the Paris Review about arguing with

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<v Speaker 1>your father over whether Trump is an asshole, and then

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<v Speaker 1>the next day your dad says to you, so, are

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<v Speaker 1>you still talking to me? And I thought that was

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<v Speaker 1>interesting because he didn't say I'm not talking to you,

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<v Speaker 1>he said are you still talking to me? And I

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<v Speaker 1>often feel like with especially inside of a family, when

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<v Speaker 1>you're arguing about Trump, there's this understanding that, whether it's

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<v Speaker 1>admitted or not, you know, he's a bad person and

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<v Speaker 1>there's something a little bit wrong with voting for him,

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<v Speaker 1>and people are looking for some kind of forgiveness or

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<v Speaker 1>lack of judgment even though they know they did something wrong.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm wondering if you felt that when you were

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<v Speaker 1>talking to your father other people in your life that

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<v Speaker 1>voted for Trump.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, with my dad it started really he was like

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<v Speaker 2>a Republican, like just wanted to keep more.

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<v Speaker 1>Of his own money.

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<v Speaker 2>And then he voted for Jesse Hilmes, which was a

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<v Speaker 2>thing because Jesse Helms grew up in Raleigh and he

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<v Speaker 2>was on the he was did editorials on the news,

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<v Speaker 2>and even as a kid, you were like, wow, that

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<v Speaker 2>guy's really severe, you know, and then he ran for

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<v Speaker 2>office and it really it really when he voted for

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<v Speaker 2>Jesse Hilms, it just became a different thing. And then

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<v Speaker 2>the conservative radio came along, and then he started listening

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<v Speaker 2>to Russe Limbaugh, and then he Fox News came along,

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<v Speaker 2>and so then he was just in it all the time.

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<v Speaker 2>He was in it in his car, and he was

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<v Speaker 2>in it at home, and it was on all the

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<v Speaker 2>time like a rage machine, you know. And then when

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<v Speaker 2>he moved into an assisted living when he was like

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<v Speaker 2>ninety five, and he didn't know how to work the TV,

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<v Speaker 2>and for the first time he he he wasn't up,

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<v Speaker 2>he wasn't being agitated every minute, and toward the end

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<v Speaker 2>of his life he regretted. He's told me he regretted

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<v Speaker 2>voting for Trump, which was interesting to me.

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<v Speaker 1>But I like, I have.

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<v Speaker 2>A friend who in England who is a politician and

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<v Speaker 2>he and I pick up trash together. Right when I

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<v Speaker 2>first moved to the countryside in England, my boyfriend Hugh

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<v Speaker 2>wrote a letter to the council saying, like, what's going

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<v Speaker 2>on with all this trash on the side of the road,

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<v Speaker 2>And they invited us to the Clean and Tidy Advisory

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<v Speaker 2>Board right to a meeting. So we met this guy

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<v Speaker 2>who's a local politician and he goes and picks up

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<v Speaker 2>trash himself, and so I do it myself every day

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<v Speaker 2>between four and six hours, and sometimes he comes with me. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>and he was a Tory, but now he's reform right

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<v Speaker 2>now he's Nigel Frage. And he said, you're not going

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<v Speaker 2>to want to talk to me anymore, and I said, oh, no,

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<v Speaker 2>that's not the case at all. You know, like I

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<v Speaker 2>would never stop talking to him over that. He answers

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<v Speaker 2>any question I ask him. You know, we don't, and

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<v Speaker 2>I appreciate that.

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<v Speaker 1>I'd like to.

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<v Speaker 2>I'd like to know why he feels the way that

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<v Speaker 2>he does. We've never raised our voices to each other.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a I think it's a great relationship. And when

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<v Speaker 2>my dad was like, you're not gonna you're right, he well,

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<v Speaker 2>I think part of it too. I mean my dad

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<v Speaker 2>North Carolina. You know, gay marriage was illegal in North Carolina,

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<v Speaker 2>and then they they introduced like a resolution that would

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<v Speaker 2>make it extra, extra, extra extra illegal. And my dad

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<v Speaker 2>was so happy to tell me he voted for that,

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<v Speaker 2>so happy to tell me that. And I happened to

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<v Speaker 2>be in North Carolina at that time. And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>my sister in law, her sister is gay.

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<v Speaker 1>And I said, why, why why shouldn't.

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<v Speaker 2>She be allowed to marry her girlfriend? It sends the

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<v Speaker 2>wrong message? And I said what message is that? He

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<v Speaker 2>and then he couldn't really answer. He'd he'd heard the

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<v Speaker 2>answer on on the radio or on TV, but he

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<v Speaker 2>couldn't quite remember what the what was wrong with it? Right,

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<v Speaker 2>He couldn't quite recall those words. Anyway, He's a dick,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, just a complete dick. But and that was

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<v Speaker 2>like the least of it, you know what I mean.

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<v Speaker 2>It wasn't like he was a dick because of that.

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<v Speaker 2>He was like a massive dick anyway.

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<v Speaker 1>And then there was that right right, No, for sure,

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<v Speaker 1>But even like what you're saying about this, this the

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<v Speaker 1>person who said he went and reformed, like, oh, you're

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<v Speaker 1>probably you're probably not gonna want to talk to me.

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<v Speaker 1>Like I've never heard a liberal say I voted for mom, Donnie,

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<v Speaker 1>you're probably not going to want to talk to me,

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<v Speaker 1>Like there's some kind of acknowledgement inside of it, that

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<v Speaker 1>it's an act of like not sabotage, but like of

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<v Speaker 1>I'm so mad about everything, I'm going to do this.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to vote for this these terrible people, or

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to become extreme. My reasons are legitimate, which

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<v Speaker 1>you don't appreciate, but I know on some level I'm

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<v Speaker 1>doing something wrong, right Like I that that, to me

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<v Speaker 1>is what I often hear from and I feel that

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<v Speaker 1>inside of when families are having these kinds of arguments.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm wondering if that's what you felt from your dad,

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<v Speaker 1>even though even though you felt like you was also I.

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<v Speaker 2>Felt it was more like that me being gay had

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<v Speaker 2>something to do with it. It would be like saying

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<v Speaker 2>to a Jewish friend, I voted for the Nazi Party,

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<v Speaker 2>You're probably not going to want to talk to me,

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<v Speaker 2>whereas you would say to somebody who wasn't Jewish, you

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<v Speaker 2>would say, yeah, I voted for the Nazi Party, and

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<v Speaker 2>you wouldn't add You're probably not going to want to

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<v Speaker 2>talk to me because you can see how your vote

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<v Speaker 2>is going to make this person's life more miserable.

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<v Speaker 1>But did you know, I know, towards the very end

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<v Speaker 1>of his life, your father did say really acknowledge how

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<v Speaker 1>much success you had and what kind of uh like

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<v Speaker 1>what you had built. But at the same time, like

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<v Speaker 1>he's looking you in the eye and being like, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm just voting for the thing that is going to

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<v Speaker 1>make your life worse. And I'm just doing because I

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<v Speaker 1>have some of my friends from the radio like what

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<v Speaker 1>is that? Like, is there any acknowledgement? Like what? What

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<v Speaker 1>do you think that was?

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<v Speaker 3>Like? What?

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<v Speaker 1>Why couldn't he Why did he care more about what

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<v Speaker 1>he was seeing on the television than he did about you?

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<v Speaker 4>Oh?

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<v Speaker 2>Be because it was all about money, just money, I

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<v Speaker 2>mean yeah, Ultimately it all came down to money. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>if oh my goodness, if you know, if a candidate

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<v Speaker 2>said I'm going to bring back concentration camps, but I'm

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<v Speaker 2>going to knock two dollars off your taxes, my father

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<v Speaker 2>would have voted for that person because it would save

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<v Speaker 2>two dollars.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean two.

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<v Speaker 2>Dollars was that important to him. It's not like he

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<v Speaker 2>didn't have two dollars. He was just it was just ultimately,

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<v Speaker 2>it was all about money, about keeping more of his money.

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<v Speaker 1>So in nineteen I was looking at one of your

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<v Speaker 1>older diaries, and in nineteen ninety, you and your dad

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<v Speaker 1>and your brother Paul spent eighteen hours in a pickup

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<v Speaker 1>truck together driving from Illinois to North Carolina. And for

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<v Speaker 1>someone who's now saying your father was a Dick, you

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<v Speaker 1>also spent a lot of time together. Like I look,

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<v Speaker 1>my father and I don't know what we would talk

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<v Speaker 1>about if we were in a car together for eighteen hours.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you remember that drive? I remember it clearly.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, But if my father and I were in a

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<v Speaker 2>car for eighteen hours, then he just would have criticized

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<v Speaker 2>me for eighteen hours. But my brother was there, and

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<v Speaker 2>so that made it fun that my brother was there.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, there was nine. I often think of that.

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<v Speaker 2>I was moving to New York City.

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<v Speaker 1>So I was leaving.

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<v Speaker 2>Chicago, and then I had some stuff I was going

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<v Speaker 2>to bring to North Carolina, and then I was going

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<v Speaker 2>to go I was going to paint a house. My

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<v Speaker 2>father had rental property and I was going to paint

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<v Speaker 2>a house and then use that money to move to

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<v Speaker 2>New York with. So we drove from from Chicago to

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<v Speaker 2>North Carolina and I painted the house, and I don't

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<v Speaker 2>mount the deal was maybe that I was going to

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<v Speaker 2>get two thousand dollars from painting the house, right, And

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<v Speaker 2>I painted the house and he said, I'll give you

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<v Speaker 2>five hundred. I mean everything about my father prepared me

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<v Speaker 2>for Trump. You know, you someone works for you and

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<v Speaker 2>then you don't pay them, or then you say I'll

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<v Speaker 2>pay you a quarter of what you're going to pay me.

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<v Speaker 2>You get you get a quarter, or you get nothing.

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<v Speaker 2>So he was always a dick, you know what I mean.

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<v Speaker 2>He might have driven driven me. You know, that was

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<v Speaker 2>nice of him, But I mean it wasn't like you're

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<v Speaker 2>just taking like a day's vacation from being a dick,

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<v Speaker 2>you know.

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<v Speaker 1>So now it's all these years later and you're telling

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<v Speaker 1>the Wall Street Journal that you bought a twenty five

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<v Speaker 1>hundred dollars coat for your tour. So things have changed,

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<v Speaker 1>things have picked up for you. You're traveling around the world.

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<v Speaker 1>Talk to me about what international McDonald's has taught you

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<v Speaker 1>seeing McDonald's in other countries and what it it teaches

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<v Speaker 1>you about the world and about America. I don't I

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<v Speaker 1>don't like.

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<v Speaker 2>I eat McDonald's once a year and the Dallas Airport

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<v Speaker 2>because I find myself at lunchtime in the Dallas Airport

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<v Speaker 2>at least once a year and there's really no other

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<v Speaker 2>place to eat, right. But when I go to other countries,

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<v Speaker 2>I just love to see what McDonald's is. Often like

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<v Speaker 2>the Grand Canyon Burger. We don't have the Grand Canyon

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<v Speaker 2>Burger here, you know the Brooklyn Burger. I don't even

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<v Speaker 2>know what beyond a Brooklyn Burger. But you go to

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<v Speaker 2>other countries and you see billboards and it's so I

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<v Speaker 2>always write it down.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know, I'm just but you don't eat them,

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<v Speaker 1>you just go through. You don't know. I don't buy them.

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<v Speaker 1>I just no.

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<v Speaker 2>I just write them down and have them on my

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<v Speaker 2>list of things that McDonald's offers in other countries, like

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<v Speaker 2>I don't I don't necessarily know what they've what they've

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<v Speaker 2>got here, but I think if they had a Grand

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<v Speaker 2>Canyon Burger, I would have heard about it, or I

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<v Speaker 2>would have seen an ad for it.

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<v Speaker 1>They don't have that. I go there all the time

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<v Speaker 1>when I was in Japan. When I was in Japan,

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<v Speaker 1>I spose being a friend in Japan just twenty years ago,

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<v Speaker 1>and he was He spoke Japanese, so that was going

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<v Speaker 1>to be helpful, and I don't speak any Japanese. But

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<v Speaker 1>by the time I had landed, he'd gotten quite sick,

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<v Speaker 1>and so I was alone in Japan, and every once

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<v Speaker 1>in a while, and a kind of feeling of overwhelming panic,

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<v Speaker 1>I would go to the McDonald's. But you don't even

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<v Speaker 1>eat the McDonald's in the other countries. So for me

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<v Speaker 1>it's occasionally like a respite to be abroad and be like,

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<v Speaker 1>you know what I need to go into. I just

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<v Speaker 1>need I need ten minutes to be inside of the

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<v Speaker 1>comfort and warm blanket of McDonald's, including eating it. But

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<v Speaker 1>for you, it's more just sort of observing it, almost

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<v Speaker 1>like a like David Attenborough on the Serengetti as supposed

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<v Speaker 1>to sort of consuming the McDonald's.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, in Tokyo, I observe it, and then I go

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<v Speaker 2>to Horishia nas Berga freshness burger and that's how it's

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<v Speaker 2>pronounced Horeshia Nasberga or moss Burger, and they're great. They're

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<v Speaker 2>Japanese changed and they're great.

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<v Speaker 1>So you seem to be a little bit annoyed by

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<v Speaker 1>the language of the left these days, and you acknowledge

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<v Speaker 1>that part of this is the you're getting older and

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<v Speaker 1>everything is starting to annoy you more and more, which

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<v Speaker 1>I appreciate. Though I feel like maybe you've always had

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit of like there's You've always had a

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<v Speaker 1>kind of I don't know, persnickety old man inside of you,

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<v Speaker 1>and maybe now it's coming out. But you do have

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<v Speaker 1>an essay to book about punching down? Is there anyone

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<v Speaker 1>beneath you that you'd like to take a shot at

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<v Speaker 1>right now? Is there anyone you'd like to punch down?

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<v Speaker 2>That essay came from when I first moved to New

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<v Speaker 2>York City. I didn't know anybody, and so there was

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<v Speaker 2>a class at the Y called Writing Funny, and it

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<v Speaker 2>was taught by this woman named Frida Garmetz, who used

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<v Speaker 2>to be a Saturday commentator on All Things Considered and

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<v Speaker 2>really funny, this British woman. And I thought, oh gosh,

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<v Speaker 2>there's not going to be any places left in the

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<v Speaker 2>class because she's teaching. And so I signed up for

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<v Speaker 2>this class and I was the only one who knew

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<v Speaker 2>who she was. And the first day she said, what

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<v Speaker 2>are the rules for comedy writing? And I said, you

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<v Speaker 2>should never make fun of anyone who has less power

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<v Speaker 2>than you. And she said, where on earth did you

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<v Speaker 2>get that idea from? She said, no, the only rule

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<v Speaker 2>of comedy writing is that you should be as tasteless

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<v Speaker 2>as possible, and so I've stuck by that every since

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<v Speaker 2>she told me. I thought, that's a good rule, but

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<v Speaker 2>you don't.

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<v Speaker 1>But who are we punching down at Who are you

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<v Speaker 1>punching down at these days? Who's annoying? Oh? You know?

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<v Speaker 4>No?

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<v Speaker 2>Like I had something on CBS Sunday morning, right not

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<v Speaker 2>long ago, and I was in Minneapolis Airport and I

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<v Speaker 2>went for lunch and it was this place where you

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<v Speaker 2>had to seat yourself, order yourself on the screen, pay,

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<v Speaker 2>enter all your credit card information, and then it asked

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<v Speaker 2>how much you wanted to tip. And I thought, I've

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<v Speaker 2>done everything here, what would I be tipping? And then

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<v Speaker 2>I saw this woman calm and set food in front

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<v Speaker 2>of somebody, and I wrote, Then I saw that she

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<v Speaker 2>was an immigrant, and I thought, how my parents, my

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<v Speaker 2>grandparents were immigrants, right? And then it went on from

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<v Speaker 2>there and the Board of Race and Culture at CBS

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<v Speaker 2>said I was using my privilege to punch down and

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<v Speaker 2>call someone an immigrant. And I said, and then they

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<v Speaker 2>gave me an opportunity to defend myself and I said,

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<v Speaker 2>immigrant is like a pharmacists. That's the word for it.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I'm an immigrant in the United Kingdom. I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't say filthy immigrant. I didn't say I just said immigrant.

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<v Speaker 2>And how did I know she was an immigrant?

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<v Speaker 3>Oh?

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean she was Ethiopian, you know, and she had

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<v Speaker 2>an accent, so I figured she must have immigranted to

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<v Speaker 2>But I wasn't criticizing her in any way. And there's

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<v Speaker 2>nothing wrong with the word immigrant, you know. And it

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00:14:50.120 --> 00:14:53.559
<v Speaker 2>sat on the shelf there for a year and a

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<v Speaker 2>half before they aired it, And so to me, that's

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't understand. And even the charge like that's not

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<v Speaker 2>punching down on anybody, I just didn't I anyway. I

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<v Speaker 2>was just completely mystified by that. And I feeling that

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<v Speaker 2>that happens quite often with with writing lately, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>like another circumstance, like we flag this because you use

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<v Speaker 2>the word nanny, and it's like, yeah, I know people

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<v Speaker 2>who are nannies and they identify as nanny's and it's

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<v Speaker 2>not I'm not criticize, I'm not making fun of anyone. Again,

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<v Speaker 2>it would be like if I said that Peter was

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<v Speaker 2>a pharmacist.

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<v Speaker 5>Pote America is brought to you by Armora Colostrum. When

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<v Speaker 1>Poddavi America is brought you by Small Smalls makes fresh

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<v Speaker 1>human grade food for cats. It's made from the same

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<v Speaker 1>stuff you or I would eat, but formulate it specifically

329
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<v Speaker 1>to help cats thrive. Cats are obligate carnivores. You need

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<v Speaker 1>lots of I don't know what an obligate carnivor just

331
00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:15.759
<v Speaker 1>a carnivore. What a helpful description. I guess we're we're

332
00:17:15.759 --> 00:17:20.119
<v Speaker 1>what is it called multivor? What is what? A human omnivore?

333
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<v Speaker 1>That's wrong, omnivore. I love being an omnivore.

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<v Speaker 3>The multiverse dilema.

335
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<v Speaker 1>I don't want to be an obligate carnivore like one

336
00:17:27.079 --> 00:17:31.599
<v Speaker 1>of those meat people from YouTube The Little King over here.

337
00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:33.559
<v Speaker 1>Those meat people are just their faces are bright red.

338
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<v Speaker 1>You can see every vein in their body. Like I've

339
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<v Speaker 1>never felt better. Yeah, I don't know that. You know

340
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<v Speaker 1>what feeling better is your cat And the point is

341
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<v Speaker 1>your cat. God, I keep that cat healthy, and that

342
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<v Speaker 1>means meat. Both cat food out there uses meat byproducts

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<v Speaker 1>and cuts their food with cheap grain, filler, artificial ingredients. Basically,

344
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345
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<v Speaker 1>just so the big pet food companies can save a

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<v Speaker 1>couple of dollars. Smalls is different. They're fresh, recipes are

347
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<v Speaker 1>over eighty percent animal pro and they never use fillers

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<v Speaker 1>or artificial ingredients. Their food is so healthy that eighty

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<v Speaker 1>eight percent of cat parents say that after feeding Smalls,

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<v Speaker 1>they notice that their cat has better digestion, softer and

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<v Speaker 1>because it's actually good for cats. If you want to

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<v Speaker 1>com slash crookeet, you're a life with a cat's life.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, good, honestly good question, smalls dot com slash crookeet.

358
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<v Speaker 1>That's sixty percent out of your first order plus free

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<v Speaker 1>shipping and free treats for life. When you had to

360
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<v Speaker 1>smalls dot com slash crooked, it's clearly what you're getting at, right,

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00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:43.440
<v Speaker 1>Like there's you know that there are people that will say, like,

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00:18:43.559 --> 00:18:45.559
<v Speaker 1>you know, it may be the case that one reason

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<v Speaker 1>Trump is president because people find the left annoying and

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<v Speaker 1>people say that's glib. And also we have a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of bigger problems in the world than people being worried

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<v Speaker 1>about words we use, right, and that this is focusing

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<v Speaker 1>on the wrong thing and the right is hyping this

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<v Speaker 1>all up. At the same time, though, there does seem

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<v Speaker 1>to be something where, you know, you have a story

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<v Speaker 1>in the book about what happened when you got a

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<v Speaker 1>bit by a dog and you felt like the audience

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't on your side because of who owned the dog.

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<v Speaker 1>And what you say in the essay is that people

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<v Speaker 1>are worried that they will be perceived as not being

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<v Speaker 1>empathetic enough. They'll be worried that they'll be perceived as

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<v Speaker 1>being kind of republican. You just talk about that and

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<v Speaker 1>what happened there.

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<v Speaker 2>I was bitten by a dog. And I was in Portland,

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<v Speaker 2>organ and there were these three people smoking fentanyl and

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<v Speaker 2>they had two dogs, and I was walking on the

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<v Speaker 2>street and one of the dogs that both the dogs

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00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:37.720
<v Speaker 2>rushed forward and one of them bit me. And when

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<v Speaker 2>I told people about it, I had a show that

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00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:45.359
<v Speaker 2>show that night and I talked about it and a

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<v Speaker 2>woman said, well, you know, people with an opioid use

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<v Speaker 2>disorder read incredibly difficult lives, you know, and they're in

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<v Speaker 2>no position to take care of their animals.

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<v Speaker 1>That's the sad part. And I'm like, is that the sad?

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<v Speaker 2>And then other people were like what kind of a

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<v Speaker 2>dog was it? But everybody acted. If I had said

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<v Speaker 2>this tech bro had this dog that bit me, they'd

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<v Speaker 2>be like, oh those people. I've had it up to

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<v Speaker 2>hear with those people. But because they were smoking fentanyl,

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<v Speaker 2>people felt like if they said like, oh, that's awful,

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<v Speaker 2>then they were being then people might mistake them for

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<v Speaker 2>a Republican. But since Wayne did allowing dogs to bite

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<v Speaker 2>people become a Democrat point of principle, I just don't

398
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<v Speaker 2>understand that.

399
00:20:36.519 --> 00:20:39.279
<v Speaker 1>Well, it's and it's the kind of thing. And the

400
00:20:39.319 --> 00:20:42.559
<v Speaker 1>reason I think is like this gets it something because

401
00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:46.839
<v Speaker 1>it's of course not a democratic point of principle. And

402
00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:51.440
<v Speaker 1>I am sure there's a subset of people who genuinely

403
00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:55.119
<v Speaker 1>feel when you tell that story, like oh, you're this

404
00:20:55.279 --> 00:20:59.400
<v Speaker 1>is not the issue you're punching down, or you're not

405
00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:01.799
<v Speaker 1>being respected enough of the challenges, etc. But I would

406
00:21:01.799 --> 00:21:04.559
<v Speaker 1>think most people would say, well, that's terrible and we

407
00:21:04.599 --> 00:21:06.839
<v Speaker 1>have a real problem here and that shouldn't have happened,

408
00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:09.200
<v Speaker 1>and we need to address the ways in which people

409
00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:13.079
<v Speaker 1>don't feel safe on the streets whatever, and I sometimes feel,

410
00:21:13.319 --> 00:21:16.440
<v Speaker 1>but I do think a lot of people are afraid

411
00:21:16.519 --> 00:21:20.599
<v Speaker 1>to say, they're afraid to voice, like you know, right

412
00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:22.839
<v Speaker 1>now in Los Angeles about to have a mayor's race, right,

413
00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:26.559
<v Speaker 1>and a lot of what the issue is is around

414
00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:31.680
<v Speaker 1>how LA has a big, unhoused homeless population. And at

415
00:21:31.720 --> 00:21:33.240
<v Speaker 1>the same time there's a lot of people that will

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<v Speaker 1>get angry at a Democratic politician for being say, too

417
00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:40.319
<v Speaker 1>aggressive at trying to clear homeless encampments right when. I

418
00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:43.799
<v Speaker 1>bet if you pold people, even Democrats would be a

419
00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:47.359
<v Speaker 1>seventy thirty eighty twenty issue. But a LOWD vocal group

420
00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:49.960
<v Speaker 1>of people online are there to tell you that you're

421
00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:53.279
<v Speaker 1>being a fascist. And I wonder how many of the

422
00:21:53.319 --> 00:21:56.559
<v Speaker 1>people telling you people being afraid to tell you that

423
00:21:56.640 --> 00:21:59.160
<v Speaker 1>they think it's terrible that that dog bit you are

424
00:21:59.240 --> 00:22:01.400
<v Speaker 1>not saying what they really feel. They're afraid of some

425
00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:04.200
<v Speaker 1>sort of like online mob or something. You need to

426
00:22:04.200 --> 00:22:05.160
<v Speaker 1>get bitten by a dog.

427
00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:09.200
<v Speaker 2>I mean it's shocking because, like I told a guy

428
00:22:09.240 --> 00:22:11.160
<v Speaker 2>in my New York building, I got bitten by dog?

429
00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:11.920
<v Speaker 1>What did you do?

430
00:22:12.680 --> 00:22:14.759
<v Speaker 2>And then other on your side, Oh no, no, no, no,

431
00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:18.279
<v Speaker 2>I'm saying I'm saying, you would be amazed if you

432
00:22:18.279 --> 00:22:20.960
<v Speaker 2>get bitten by a dog at how people react.

433
00:22:21.000 --> 00:22:21.920
<v Speaker 1>What kind of a dog?

434
00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:24.039
<v Speaker 2>Was it? Like?

435
00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:25.799
<v Speaker 1>People?

436
00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:34.680
<v Speaker 2>I was shocked. Nobody said nobody said, oh, that's awful,

437
00:22:35.160 --> 00:22:37.720
<v Speaker 2>you've bitten by a dog. Well, like like two people did.

438
00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:40.640
<v Speaker 2>But if you talk to fifteen people, two of them

439
00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:42.200
<v Speaker 2>would say, oh, that's awful.

440
00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:44.000
<v Speaker 1>Was it like a stitchy situation? How bad of a

441
00:22:44.039 --> 00:22:46.759
<v Speaker 1>how deep did this woundca it broke? The skin broke this.

442
00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:49.680
<v Speaker 2>I went to the pharmacy and she told me to

443
00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:51.319
<v Speaker 2>go to the emergency room.

444
00:22:51.559 --> 00:22:53.039
<v Speaker 1>And then I just thought.

445
00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:55.279
<v Speaker 2>That the people who were who whose dog it was,

446
00:22:55.319 --> 00:22:57.079
<v Speaker 2>they were just going to carry on with their day.

447
00:22:57.680 --> 00:22:59.759
<v Speaker 2>And I was like, and then I'm going to spend

448
00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:02.400
<v Speaker 2>all in the emergency room. I decided I would rather

449
00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:05.720
<v Speaker 2>die than do that that. I would literally rather die

450
00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:10.079
<v Speaker 2>than go to the emergency room. Another I got a

451
00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:12.519
<v Speaker 2>lot of letters about people who've been bitten by dogs

452
00:23:12.759 --> 00:23:15.319
<v Speaker 2>like this. One woman she was sitting on sofa at

453
00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:18.039
<v Speaker 2>a friend's house and she got up and the dog

454
00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:21.000
<v Speaker 2>bit the back of her neck and the owner had

455
00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:22.839
<v Speaker 2>to come and pry its jaws open and said, I

456
00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:26.880
<v Speaker 2>told you not to make any sudden movements. You scared

457
00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:30.960
<v Speaker 2>him like it's a it's a it's a dog thing,

458
00:23:31.519 --> 00:23:32.519
<v Speaker 2>and it's a.

459
00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:36.240
<v Speaker 1>Drug addicts dog thing. It's both.

460
00:23:36.920 --> 00:23:40.119
<v Speaker 2>And then I uh, I got a lot of letters

461
00:23:40.119 --> 00:23:44.720
<v Speaker 2>from people. And this woman was walking after dark and

462
00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:47.960
<v Speaker 2>a man was following her, close behind her, and she

463
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:51.559
<v Speaker 2>stopped and turned around and said can I help you?

464
00:23:52.039 --> 00:23:55.000
<v Speaker 2>And you said, I'm homeless. I want money and she

465
00:23:55.039 --> 00:23:57.519
<v Speaker 2>said I don't have any money on me, and she

466
00:23:57.640 --> 00:24:00.759
<v Speaker 2>kept walking and he kept following her, and she turned

467
00:24:00.759 --> 00:24:03.079
<v Speaker 2>around and said, look, this is making me really uncomfortable.

468
00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:05.640
<v Speaker 2>And he said, I also take cash app and she

469
00:24:05.720 --> 00:24:08.119
<v Speaker 2>said I don't have cash app. And when she told

470
00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:10.839
<v Speaker 2>people about it, they all said, you don't have cash app,

471
00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:14.240
<v Speaker 2>as if that was the point of the story, right

472
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:17.759
<v Speaker 2>where again, if she had said if she had said

473
00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:20.799
<v Speaker 2>it was a fraternity brother following her, they'd be that's

474
00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:25.559
<v Speaker 2>outrageous to be following somebody after dork, But instead they

475
00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:27.960
<v Speaker 2>acted like the whole point of the story was that

476
00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:29.079
<v Speaker 2>she didn't have cash app.

477
00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:33.200
<v Speaker 1>It is my job to notice this. No, No, I'm

478
00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:39.559
<v Speaker 1>glad you. Well, it's the thing about it that I'm

479
00:24:39.640 --> 00:24:44.640
<v Speaker 1>interested in this in part because you know, whatever people's

480
00:24:44.920 --> 00:24:47.759
<v Speaker 1>morals are out this are and there'll be people that'll say, like, oh,

481
00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:52.759
<v Speaker 1>you know, uh, David Saidaris, David sitaris becoming old. He's

482
00:24:52.759 --> 00:24:55.279
<v Speaker 1>becoming an old conservative. He's getting you know, conservative in

483
00:24:55.279 --> 00:24:59.400
<v Speaker 1>his old age. But if a political movement is not

484
00:24:59.480 --> 00:25:02.640
<v Speaker 1>honest about how people actually feel, it's doomed to fail. Right,

485
00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:05.160
<v Speaker 1>Like we have like how do how do people like

486
00:25:05.240 --> 00:25:07.920
<v Speaker 1>Spencer Pratt in LA or Donald Trump get purchased? They

487
00:25:07.960 --> 00:25:10.079
<v Speaker 1>get purchased because if you tell a bunch of people

488
00:25:10.359 --> 00:25:16.039
<v Speaker 1>that that that they're wrong to feel a certain way

489
00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:18.119
<v Speaker 1>and that the Democrats don't have a good answer for

490
00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:22.200
<v Speaker 1>their legitimate frustrations, then they'll go to people with bad answers.

491
00:25:22.279 --> 00:25:25.960
<v Speaker 1>And so I do think sometimes like it's like acknowledging that, hey,

492
00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:28.079
<v Speaker 1>like there's something where we're not we're being a little

493
00:25:28.079 --> 00:25:30.599
<v Speaker 1>bit disrespectful for how people feel when they say, get

494
00:25:30.599 --> 00:25:33.119
<v Speaker 1>bitten by a dog or or feel like things in

495
00:25:33.160 --> 00:25:38.680
<v Speaker 1>their community don't feel safe. Now, it is pride, happy pride?

496
00:25:38.920 --> 00:25:40.480
<v Speaker 1>Are you a pride guy? You going to the parades?

497
00:25:40.519 --> 00:25:42.640
<v Speaker 1>Not not a pride guy? That's surprising to me. Never

498
00:25:43.119 --> 00:25:45.480
<v Speaker 1>I'm not a parade person, right, strike me as a

499
00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:48.960
<v Speaker 1>period person. You're a walker, though, you could walk a parade.

500
00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:50.400
<v Speaker 1>That's a nice that's a nice way to get in

501
00:25:50.440 --> 00:25:53.000
<v Speaker 1>your steps. No, no, it's too slow. Too slow.

502
00:25:53.200 --> 00:25:57.200
<v Speaker 2>I mean I went to that, I went to a march,

503
00:25:57.400 --> 00:26:01.960
<v Speaker 2>the what was that? The New York the No King. Okay,

504
00:26:02.960 --> 00:26:07.519
<v Speaker 2>but yeah, you're walking like you know, you're walking like

505
00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:11.000
<v Speaker 2>a thirty a mile per hour. So it's not the

506
00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:11.960
<v Speaker 2>place to get steps in.

507
00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:16.359
<v Speaker 1>Ah. Is there anything gay you've done for pride? To

508
00:26:16.359 --> 00:26:19.480
<v Speaker 1>celebrate pride? What's the gayest thing you think you've done

509
00:26:19.519 --> 00:26:23.920
<v Speaker 1>this month? The gayest thing I've done this month? My

510
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:27.200
<v Speaker 1>luggage got lost and so I had to go to

511
00:26:27.240 --> 00:26:35.200
<v Speaker 1>the airport United desk in in Denver, Colorado, and the

512
00:26:35.240 --> 00:26:37.880
<v Speaker 1>guy said, if we open your suitcase, we find your

513
00:26:37.880 --> 00:26:39.920
<v Speaker 1>suitcase and we open it, what is in there that

514
00:26:39.960 --> 00:26:43.279
<v Speaker 1>we'll know it's yours? And I said it's a Burbery

515
00:26:43.599 --> 00:26:47.680
<v Speaker 1>dop kit. I said plaid, but it's not their iconic plaid.

516
00:26:48.119 --> 00:26:53.039
<v Speaker 1>That's the gayest that I've done in years. What are

517
00:26:53.079 --> 00:26:55.240
<v Speaker 1>you doing with a burberydop kit? Why do you need

518
00:26:55.279 --> 00:26:57.359
<v Speaker 1>a Burbery brand? What is that doing?

519
00:26:57.519 --> 00:26:57.640
<v Speaker 2>So?

520
00:26:57.839 --> 00:27:00.880
<v Speaker 1>What happened to you? It is very Oh, it's so

521
00:27:01.119 --> 00:27:01.880
<v Speaker 1>pretty Oh.

522
00:27:01.759 --> 00:27:04.160
<v Speaker 2>My gosh, it's so pretty because it doesn't I don't

523
00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:06.599
<v Speaker 2>really like their signature plaid.

524
00:27:06.599 --> 00:27:08.599
<v Speaker 1>But this was supranded, so brand.

525
00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:10.759
<v Speaker 2>It's just so pretty. And I saw it in the

526
00:27:10.759 --> 00:27:13.279
<v Speaker 2>window of the store in London and then I went

527
00:27:13.319 --> 00:27:15.480
<v Speaker 2>in and I said, oh, I love that dop kit

528
00:27:15.559 --> 00:27:19.240
<v Speaker 2>in the window and they said what And then I said, okay,

529
00:27:19.319 --> 00:27:22.319
<v Speaker 2>shaving kit in the window and they said, that's not

530
00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:24.720
<v Speaker 2>a shaving kit. That's just to carry things around in.

531
00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:26.680
<v Speaker 2>But it's a shaving kit. I mean, you know, it

532
00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:31.200
<v Speaker 2>has a handle along the side, it's it's waterproof on

533
00:27:31.240 --> 00:27:34.640
<v Speaker 2>the inside. It's a shaving kit anyway, and I love it.

534
00:27:35.640 --> 00:27:37.880
<v Speaker 2>And you know what if I lost it, that was

535
00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:41.000
<v Speaker 2>when I thought about if I never got my luggage back, That's.

536
00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:43.240
<v Speaker 1>What I thought. I thought, my shaving kid. Do you

537
00:27:43.279 --> 00:27:46.880
<v Speaker 1>remember when a Biden administration official who is non binary

538
00:27:46.920 --> 00:27:49.119
<v Speaker 1>was stealing luggage and then putting on the dresses they

539
00:27:49.119 --> 00:27:52.279
<v Speaker 1>found inside of the luggage and then taking photographs of

540
00:27:52.359 --> 00:27:55.599
<v Speaker 1>themselves in public places with the stolen clothes. Oh, you

541
00:27:55.599 --> 00:27:58.759
<v Speaker 1>should read that story. It was pretty exciting, just sort

542
00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:02.680
<v Speaker 1>of the first non binary Biden administration executive was stealing

543
00:28:02.680 --> 00:28:05.440
<v Speaker 1>suitcases and then wearing the clothes from inside of the suitcases,

544
00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:10.519
<v Speaker 1>and it was not a good look. It was fantastic.

545
00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:15.799
<v Speaker 1>Speaking of now, you struggle with the word queer and

546
00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:19.000
<v Speaker 1>how the language around being gay has evolved. Have you

547
00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:21.039
<v Speaker 1>heard about from people on the road about this that

548
00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:24.079
<v Speaker 1>that call themselves queer, from sort of gen z that

549
00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:27.680
<v Speaker 1>that that that use different terms like where are you

550
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:29.799
<v Speaker 1>at now? Because that's a backlash for what you said.

551
00:28:31.319 --> 00:28:33.920
<v Speaker 2>I love asking people about it. I love it, and

552
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:37.119
<v Speaker 2>I find that generally it's a generational thing, right, Like

553
00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:39.400
<v Speaker 2>a lot of times when I meet young women, I

554
00:28:39.480 --> 00:28:41.960
<v Speaker 2>say where do you stand on the word lesbian? And

555
00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:45.400
<v Speaker 2>a lot of them are just so insulted I even

556
00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:49.400
<v Speaker 2>used that word. They reject the word lesbian and they

557
00:28:49.400 --> 00:28:52.559
<v Speaker 2>don't want to be put in a box. And I said, well,

558
00:28:52.599 --> 00:28:55.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm still putting you in a box, but this one

559
00:28:55.279 --> 00:28:59.319
<v Speaker 2>has irritating person written on the side of.

560
00:28:59.279 --> 00:28:59.680
<v Speaker 4>It, you know.

561
00:29:01.400 --> 00:29:04.160
<v Speaker 1>And I find my problem with the word queer. I

562
00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:05.400
<v Speaker 1>have two problems, right.

563
00:29:05.960 --> 00:29:11.880
<v Speaker 2>One it doesn't tell me anything right, and two it's

564
00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:15.519
<v Speaker 2>the third time in my life I've been rebranded. And

565
00:29:15.559 --> 00:29:18.200
<v Speaker 2>it just it'll happen to you too when you get older,

566
00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:21.880
<v Speaker 2>Like people keep changing your name, and nobody ever asks you,

567
00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:24.559
<v Speaker 2>no one ever asks your opinion. It's like, oh, you're

568
00:29:24.640 --> 00:29:27.200
<v Speaker 2>this now. And then when people come up to me

569
00:29:27.240 --> 00:29:29.920
<v Speaker 2>and say, oh, you're a queer writer, and it's like, no,

570
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:36.599
<v Speaker 2>I'm no, I don't. And again, it doesn't have anything

571
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:40.960
<v Speaker 2>to do with the word formally being an insult. I

572
00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:44.680
<v Speaker 2>appreciate that it's short, you know, but that's all that

573
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:48.240
<v Speaker 2>I really appreciate about it. But I love asking people

574
00:29:48.319 --> 00:29:53.759
<v Speaker 2>about it. And usually the people, you know, younger people,

575
00:29:54.440 --> 00:29:57.319
<v Speaker 2>they like having their own word. You know, this is

576
00:29:57.359 --> 00:29:59.799
<v Speaker 2>a young word, and so they feel like it reflects.

577
00:30:00.839 --> 00:30:03.480
<v Speaker 2>But I feel I guess, I don't know.

578
00:30:05.839 --> 00:30:06.039
<v Speaker 1>You know.

579
00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:07.720
<v Speaker 2>A woman came up to me and said, oh, you're

580
00:30:07.720 --> 00:30:11.160
<v Speaker 2>a queer writer, said my daughter's queer. My twelve year

581
00:30:11.160 --> 00:30:13.519
<v Speaker 2>old daughter is queer. And I said, oh how and

582
00:30:13.559 --> 00:30:16.400
<v Speaker 2>she said she's asexual. I said, isn't that what you

583
00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:20.079
<v Speaker 2>want in a twelve year old? No, I mean maybe

584
00:30:20.119 --> 00:30:21.200
<v Speaker 2>she's just twelve.

585
00:30:22.359 --> 00:30:24.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well that's in the sort of edge case. Well,

586
00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:28.039
<v Speaker 1>I remember when I was a speech writer, and I

587
00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:34.480
<v Speaker 1>struggled with this because I you know, when I was

588
00:30:34.519 --> 00:30:37.359
<v Speaker 1>growing up, there was gay and there was straight, and

589
00:30:37.400 --> 00:30:39.799
<v Speaker 1>we all kind of bisexual was a joke, right. If

590
00:30:39.839 --> 00:30:43.359
<v Speaker 1>a girl was bisexual, she was really straight. If a

591
00:30:43.400 --> 00:30:46.640
<v Speaker 1>guy was bisexual, he was really gay. And we didn't

592
00:30:46.680 --> 00:30:48.839
<v Speaker 1>really talk about trans. We didn't know about we didn't

593
00:30:48.839 --> 00:30:50.799
<v Speaker 1>talk about nonlin or gender wasn't really as much a

594
00:30:50.799 --> 00:30:53.319
<v Speaker 1>part of it. And when I became a speech writer,

595
00:30:53.920 --> 00:30:56.119
<v Speaker 1>I remember watching as we would say, like, you know,

596
00:30:56.119 --> 00:31:00.359
<v Speaker 1>we're proud to celebrate gay rights, and then well, you

597
00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:02.559
<v Speaker 1>can't just say gay rights, you have to say if

598
00:31:02.599 --> 00:31:06.039
<v Speaker 1>there's also trans people. And then we started including in

599
00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:12.359
<v Speaker 1>speeches LGBT, and I remember as a writer feeling offended

600
00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:19.640
<v Speaker 1>by LGBT because it felt so mechanical, It felt so

601
00:31:20.359 --> 00:31:24.160
<v Speaker 1>it felt like it was from a manual about gay rights.

602
00:31:24.200 --> 00:31:26.680
<v Speaker 1>It felt technical, as opposed to you know, we're so

603
00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:29.240
<v Speaker 1>proud to have achieved so much for gays and lesbians

604
00:31:29.319 --> 00:31:33.039
<v Speaker 1>or the gay community. Saying LGBT felt just lyrics. Just

605
00:31:33.640 --> 00:31:38.839
<v Speaker 1>felt it had a bad sound right, and that to me.

606
00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:40.880
<v Speaker 1>So then you go to queer and that's meant to

607
00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:43.200
<v Speaker 1>be a catch all. But I had the same feeling

608
00:31:43.640 --> 00:31:45.480
<v Speaker 1>that I think you have, like, wait, this word doesn't

609
00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:48.440
<v Speaker 1>feel exactly right. But I wonder how much of that,

610
00:31:48.519 --> 00:31:53.000
<v Speaker 1>like what is it about the word that doesn't feel

611
00:31:53.160 --> 00:31:55.359
<v Speaker 1>that it's not just that it was a slur, right,

612
00:31:55.400 --> 00:31:59.720
<v Speaker 1>there's something where it like it. It doesn't feel like

613
00:31:59.720 --> 00:32:03.440
<v Speaker 1>it is who I am, and I wouldn't use it,

614
00:32:03.559 --> 00:32:05.480
<v Speaker 1>but it is a useful word to have a catch on.

615
00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:07.400
<v Speaker 1>I'm wondering if you've thought about, like, what is that

616
00:32:07.480 --> 00:32:09.599
<v Speaker 1>feeling that kind of because if it was just that

617
00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:12.279
<v Speaker 1>it wasn't you have a bad feeling about the word.

618
00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:14.079
<v Speaker 1>It's not just that it's not as good as gay.

619
00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:17.960
<v Speaker 1>There's a you don't want it, so why well.

620
00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:20.480
<v Speaker 2>Again, part of it, too, is that I just feel

621
00:32:20.519 --> 00:32:25.039
<v Speaker 2>that it's unspecific. It doesn't tell me. Often when I

622
00:32:25.039 --> 00:32:28.880
<v Speaker 2>think of queer, I think of somebody who is in

623
00:32:28.920 --> 00:32:33.400
<v Speaker 2>a heterosexual relationship but is open to the idea of

624
00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:36.119
<v Speaker 2>a three way and has the septim ring, you know,

625
00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:40.480
<v Speaker 2>and so and that's that's a thing, right, And so

626
00:32:40.720 --> 00:32:44.279
<v Speaker 2>if that's your identity, you can be that's your queer.

627
00:32:44.920 --> 00:32:48.119
<v Speaker 1>Have it, please, and I'll call you queer and everything.

628
00:32:48.319 --> 00:32:50.359
<v Speaker 1>But I'm not. I'm not clear.

629
00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:55.680
<v Speaker 2>So I'm gay and you can be queer and and

630
00:32:55.720 --> 00:32:58.799
<v Speaker 2>that's fine, But I don't when the word queer is

631
00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:01.920
<v Speaker 2>used on me by well meaning people who think, well,

632
00:33:01.960 --> 00:33:04.119
<v Speaker 2>that's the word. Now, that's a word they like us

633
00:33:04.119 --> 00:33:08.880
<v Speaker 2>to use. You know, that person, I cringe, you know,

634
00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:12.160
<v Speaker 2>and I don't. And but again, when you said something

635
00:33:12.200 --> 00:33:17.480
<v Speaker 2>earlier as a writer, okay, I mean as a writer, Yeah,

636
00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:21.640
<v Speaker 2>language is what I deal was what the tools that

637
00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:24.559
<v Speaker 2>I work with. So when people say it's just a

638
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:30.279
<v Speaker 2>language thing, well yeah, it's it's what I'm working with, right,

639
00:33:30.359 --> 00:33:34.799
<v Speaker 2>Like the New Yorker, Like I can't say prostitute in

640
00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:38.319
<v Speaker 2>the New Yorker, I have to say sex worker. To me,

641
00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:40.880
<v Speaker 2>a sex worker, Like if you lost both your arms

642
00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:43.160
<v Speaker 2>in an accident, a sex worker would come to your

643
00:33:43.160 --> 00:33:45.519
<v Speaker 2>house and teach you how to pleasure yourself by rubbing

644
00:33:45.519 --> 00:33:48.720
<v Speaker 2>aginst the doorframe. That's a sex worker, right, yeah, But

645
00:33:51.079 --> 00:33:54.119
<v Speaker 2>then there's a prostitute, you know. So I will never

646
00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:56.240
<v Speaker 2>write about a prostitute in The New Yorker because I

647
00:33:56.240 --> 00:33:57.839
<v Speaker 2>don't want to use the word sex worker.

648
00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:00.160
<v Speaker 1>I don't like the word, right, you know.

649
00:34:00.759 --> 00:34:04.440
<v Speaker 2>And and the same way, if I was in a

650
00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:06.640
<v Speaker 2>situation they said, well you have to use the word queer,

651
00:34:06.920 --> 00:34:09.000
<v Speaker 2>I would say, okay, well I won't write anything for you,

652
00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:11.639
<v Speaker 2>or I won't write about that. If I know I

653
00:34:11.639 --> 00:34:13.599
<v Speaker 2>have to use that word. I don't want the word.

654
00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:15.199
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to use it. I don't like the

655
00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:17.400
<v Speaker 2>way it sounds. I don't like I don't want to

656
00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:19.320
<v Speaker 2>see it on paper, you know, I don't want to

657
00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:24.239
<v Speaker 2>type it. So and that's I don't know that that

658
00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:27.679
<v Speaker 2>has I don't know if that's an old thing, you know,

659
00:34:27.840 --> 00:34:31.920
<v Speaker 2>just from being old or I mean there are It's

660
00:34:31.960 --> 00:34:36.920
<v Speaker 2>not like I any new word I don't want anything

661
00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:40.119
<v Speaker 2>to do with. I mean sometimes well there are a

662
00:34:40.119 --> 00:34:41.960
<v Speaker 2>lot of them. Well they I don't want anything to

663
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:42.239
<v Speaker 2>do with.

664
00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:52.960
<v Speaker 1>Podsive America's brought you by Fast Growing Trees. Fast Growing

665
00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:55.239
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666
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667
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668
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669
00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:05.960
<v Speaker 1>can sense your skeptism about ordering live vegetation on the internet,

670
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671
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672
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<v Speaker 3>The proof is in the plant.

673
00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:15.800
<v Speaker 1>The proof is in the planting.

674
00:35:15.679 --> 00:35:17.559
<v Speaker 3>And the plants. It's a free punch up. Right.

675
00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:20.559
<v Speaker 1>Proof is in the planting, right, pudding. The proof is

676
00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:22.679
<v Speaker 1>in the pudding. Proof is in the planting famously, huh,

677
00:35:23.079 --> 00:35:27.000
<v Speaker 1>and you'll be putting down so many beautiful plants. Every

678
00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:29.920
<v Speaker 1>plant is handpicked, it's carefully inspected, and the packaging is

679
00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:31.920
<v Speaker 1>designed specifically to keep them secure in transits so they

680
00:35:31.960 --> 00:35:34.079
<v Speaker 1>don't get damage. They even have a lab where they

681
00:35:34.079 --> 00:35:36.280
<v Speaker 1>test the best packaging materials to protect against cold, heat,

682
00:35:36.360 --> 00:35:38.159
<v Speaker 1>humidity and more. And I'm glad they're there. But boy,

683
00:35:38.199 --> 00:35:39.199
<v Speaker 1>you go in a first state, it's like, what do

684
00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:41.480
<v Speaker 1>you do for a living? I do packaging for plants.

685
00:35:41.480 --> 00:35:42.960
<v Speaker 1>It's like, all right, this is gonna be a boring date,

686
00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:45.159
<v Speaker 1>but I'm glad they're there doing good work doesn't mean

687
00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:45.880
<v Speaker 1>it's not a good product.

688
00:35:45.960 --> 00:35:46.920
<v Speaker 3>Just saying it's a boring day.

689
00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:49.360
<v Speaker 1>It's like I keep the plants humid in transit. It's like,

690
00:35:49.400 --> 00:35:54.199
<v Speaker 1>oh my god, I gotta meet somebody. Your plants get there.

691
00:35:54.199 --> 00:35:56.480
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692
00:35:56.519 --> 00:35:58.519
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693
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694
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:04.039
<v Speaker 1>issues with deliver, you're covered. I love fast growing trees plants.

695
00:36:04.039 --> 00:36:06.440
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696
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697
00:36:09.960 --> 00:36:12.400
<v Speaker 1>they get here, soils in place, there's no mess. When

698
00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:15.239
<v Speaker 1>the box are open, the trees are the branches are bound.

699
00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:18.000
<v Speaker 1>Then after a day they're unfolded to their full glory.

700
00:36:19.519 --> 00:36:22.320
<v Speaker 1>Great deals on spring planting essentials right now, and listeners

701
00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:24.199
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702
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703
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<v Speaker 1>Fast Growing trees dot com with code crooked at checkout.

704
00:36:29.239 --> 00:36:36.519
<v Speaker 1>In terms of condition supply. The sex worker thing is

705
00:36:36.519 --> 00:36:39.800
<v Speaker 1>interesting because here's what I worry about for like, why

706
00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:43.519
<v Speaker 1>am I reluctant? And is it because it's because I

707
00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:46.760
<v Speaker 1>don't want to be associated with the style of writing

708
00:36:47.559 --> 00:36:50.280
<v Speaker 1>that uses words like clear and sex worker. Right that

709
00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:52.639
<v Speaker 1>if you're describing as sex worker, it is a kind

710
00:36:52.679 --> 00:36:59.320
<v Speaker 1>of there's a kind of performative obtuseness and kind of

711
00:36:59.360 --> 00:37:05.519
<v Speaker 1>a perform normative progressivism that feels artificial. And so I

712
00:37:05.559 --> 00:37:08.599
<v Speaker 1>am am I rebelling against that artificiality, not because the

713
00:37:08.599 --> 00:37:11.039
<v Speaker 1>word itself, but because I don't like the way other

714
00:37:11.159 --> 00:37:14.400
<v Speaker 1>people use it and the kind of writing and thinking

715
00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:16.480
<v Speaker 1>it's associated with. You know, what I'm saying.

716
00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:22.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly, Yeah, a sex worker took one college course, Okay,

717
00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:27.199
<v Speaker 2>as a prostitute who took one course in college. Like

718
00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:30.519
<v Speaker 2>I think if you went to the streets and you

719
00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:33.599
<v Speaker 2>and someone was offering blow jobs, and you say, what

720
00:37:33.679 --> 00:37:34.679
<v Speaker 2>do you learn be called?

721
00:37:35.320 --> 00:37:37.880
<v Speaker 1>I think I don't. I don't know how many people

722
00:37:37.880 --> 00:37:41.039
<v Speaker 1>would say sex worker? Yeah, sort of like how I

723
00:37:41.039 --> 00:37:42.239
<v Speaker 1>would Normally the.

724
00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:43.719
<v Speaker 2>Thing to do would be to say to them, what

725
00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:45.599
<v Speaker 2>would you like to be addressing? What would you like

726
00:37:45.639 --> 00:37:46.119
<v Speaker 2>to be called?

727
00:37:46.440 --> 00:37:48.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? You know, well, because we went through around of

728
00:37:48.239 --> 00:37:51.519
<v Speaker 1>this one, people were saying kind of LATINX and it

729
00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:53.320
<v Speaker 1>turned out, you know that that that's sort of a

730
00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:57.760
<v Speaker 1>sort of an artificially producer of activism based word that

731
00:37:57.800 --> 00:38:00.960
<v Speaker 1>wasn't really used outside of those spaces, And then kind

732
00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:03.440
<v Speaker 1>of went through a cycle of how people were using

733
00:38:03.440 --> 00:38:06.039
<v Speaker 1>that word, and then eventually sort of we're not using

734
00:38:06.079 --> 00:38:08.480
<v Speaker 1>that word anymore, and it's okay, great, we're back to

735
00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:12.360
<v Speaker 1>Latino Latina. Well, I think about it sort of for me, right,

736
00:38:12.400 --> 00:38:15.280
<v Speaker 1>because I identify I'm gay, But at the same time,

737
00:38:16.480 --> 00:38:18.719
<v Speaker 1>I became comfortable with that at a time when I

738
00:38:18.760 --> 00:38:23.239
<v Speaker 1>didn't have another option, right, and I'm now forty three,

739
00:38:23.559 --> 00:38:28.800
<v Speaker 1>I am married to a trans person. I like, I

740
00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:32.599
<v Speaker 1>choose to call myself gay, even though truthfully I am.

741
00:38:32.840 --> 00:38:36.199
<v Speaker 1>The word queer probably more appropriately defines what I am.

742
00:38:36.280 --> 00:38:38.519
<v Speaker 1>But I choose to be gay because I think being

743
00:38:38.519 --> 00:38:41.400
<v Speaker 1>gay as a choice. Nobody's gonna take that away from me.

744
00:38:42.840 --> 00:38:47.840
<v Speaker 2>Well, I like, when I was I remember the word

745
00:38:47.880 --> 00:38:52.480
<v Speaker 2>gay coming into use, right, the term was homosexual, and

746
00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:54.960
<v Speaker 2>so I a member of the term gay, and maybe

747
00:38:55.000 --> 00:38:59.800
<v Speaker 2>because I was eighteen years old, I thought great because

748
00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:02.840
<v Speaker 2>it fit, you know. And so maybe there were people

749
00:39:02.920 --> 00:39:07.079
<v Speaker 2>who felt like gay was unspecific or you know, they

750
00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:08.400
<v Speaker 2>just didn't like the sound of it.

751
00:39:08.760 --> 00:39:10.320
<v Speaker 1>I mean, homosexual. I'm fine with.

752
00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:14.519
<v Speaker 2>It's just longer, you know, Like for some reason, we

753
00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:21.599
<v Speaker 2>just keep making words longer. Uh So again, anything one

754
00:39:21.679 --> 00:39:26.360
<v Speaker 2>syllable but an LGBTQ, and then it became qqya and

755
00:39:26.400 --> 00:39:28.440
<v Speaker 2>then it was a plus was added, and I agree

756
00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:29.079
<v Speaker 2>it was a lot.

757
00:39:29.320 --> 00:39:33.239
<v Speaker 1>Well, this is where it's like, it's about persuasion too,

758
00:39:33.559 --> 00:39:37.639
<v Speaker 1>which is hey, like if nobody who's not paying very

759
00:39:37.639 --> 00:39:41.840
<v Speaker 1>close attention is going to master LGBTQ two I A plus,

760
00:39:41.880 --> 00:39:44.920
<v Speaker 1>Like it's stupid. It's just like, at some point we're

761
00:39:44.960 --> 00:39:47.440
<v Speaker 1>allowed to have sort of esthetic judgments like, I'm sorry,

762
00:39:47.480 --> 00:39:49.880
<v Speaker 1>but that's that's stupid. It is stupid to go around

763
00:39:49.960 --> 00:39:52.599
<v Speaker 1>saying so many letters in a row, and to keep

764
00:39:52.599 --> 00:39:56.360
<v Speaker 1>adding new letters to it. It's just esthetically unpleasing. We're

765
00:39:56.400 --> 00:39:58.800
<v Speaker 1>allowed to have taste, right.

766
00:40:00.320 --> 00:40:05.480
<v Speaker 2>To You couldn't blame people from making fun of lgbtqqia plus.

767
00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:08.639
<v Speaker 1>You, oh it's funny them, Yeah, it's funny. Yeah. Now,

768
00:40:08.719 --> 00:40:13.199
<v Speaker 1>I mean you've also been advocating for wearing skirts people

769
00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:15.440
<v Speaker 1>about how comfortable skirts are. We are both people that

770
00:40:15.559 --> 00:40:18.920
<v Speaker 1>have worn skirts at our live show and have become

771
00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:21.360
<v Speaker 1>proponents of skirts. What do you think men are afraid

772
00:40:21.400 --> 00:40:22.599
<v Speaker 1>of with these skirts?

773
00:40:23.119 --> 00:40:25.880
<v Speaker 2>You know, I don't want to be stared at, and

774
00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:29.360
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to be a woman, and I don't

775
00:40:29.360 --> 00:40:31.920
<v Speaker 2>want to have breasts, and I don't want to wear makeup.

776
00:40:32.679 --> 00:40:35.400
<v Speaker 1>But a skirt just looks good.

777
00:40:35.679 --> 00:40:37.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, half the world wears skirts and they

778
00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:39.559
<v Speaker 2>don't make any big deal about it. I mean, I

779
00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:42.960
<v Speaker 2>went to Fiji and you know, all the guys are

780
00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:48.840
<v Speaker 2>wearing skirts, and you go g I mean again, you

781
00:40:48.960 --> 00:40:52.840
<v Speaker 2>go to the Middle East and you see people and

782
00:40:53.719 --> 00:40:56.800
<v Speaker 2>basically dresses. I remember I went to Morocco when I

783
00:40:56.840 --> 00:41:00.239
<v Speaker 2>was in high school with my Spanish class, and I

784
00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:02.239
<v Speaker 2>bought I don't know what it's called, but it's like

785
00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:05.400
<v Speaker 2>a floor length rope, you know, And I wore it

786
00:41:05.440 --> 00:41:08.400
<v Speaker 2>to high school when I got back, and I remember

787
00:41:08.920 --> 00:41:12.519
<v Speaker 2>thinking I look good and and just being made fun

788
00:41:12.559 --> 00:41:16.400
<v Speaker 2>of like so roundly, and just remember I just remember thinking,

789
00:41:16.519 --> 00:41:18.360
<v Speaker 2>like why is it a big deal?

790
00:41:18.559 --> 00:41:21.320
<v Speaker 1>Like why it's.

791
00:41:20.679 --> 00:41:23.559
<v Speaker 2>Got one hole instead of too really, and you're going

792
00:41:23.639 --> 00:41:27.760
<v Speaker 2>to get that upset about it. But yeah, I have

793
00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:32.119
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of skirts and I'm happy to uh, you know,

794
00:41:32.159 --> 00:41:36.039
<v Speaker 2>I don't have mini skirts and stuff I have. You know,

795
00:41:36.159 --> 00:41:39.639
<v Speaker 2>usually they go you know to the floor or you know,

796
00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:41.840
<v Speaker 2>almost to the floor, and I just I just think

797
00:41:41.880 --> 00:41:42.519
<v Speaker 2>they look great.

798
00:41:43.159 --> 00:41:46.079
<v Speaker 1>I do think that that when you know, conservatives get

799
00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:52.199
<v Speaker 1>upset about trans people on some level, what they're upset

800
00:41:52.239 --> 00:41:57.199
<v Speaker 1>about is the ways in which they're holding on to

801
00:41:57.280 --> 00:41:59.760
<v Speaker 1>these sort of traditional definitions of like the right way

802
00:41:59.800 --> 00:42:02.440
<v Speaker 1>to be a man, and how small a definition they

803
00:42:02.480 --> 00:42:10.039
<v Speaker 1>want for that. And I think, as someone that has

804
00:42:10.039 --> 00:42:15.199
<v Speaker 1>been publicly gay since you were writing so long, like

805
00:42:15.199 --> 00:42:17.000
<v Speaker 1>you never really came out. You're just gay. From the

806
00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:19.000
<v Speaker 1>first moment I've heard of you. You were gay the

807
00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:21.119
<v Speaker 1>whole time. You never came out. You never you never

808
00:42:21.159 --> 00:42:24.239
<v Speaker 1>had your moment of going on television being like, I'm gay.

809
00:42:25.800 --> 00:42:28.119
<v Speaker 2>But at the same time, I was lucky enough to

810
00:42:28.159 --> 00:42:29.920
<v Speaker 2>come around at a time I can write about my

811
00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:34.559
<v Speaker 2>relationship and people just it's about trying to make a

812
00:42:34.599 --> 00:42:38.840
<v Speaker 2>life with another person, right that the world could could

813
00:42:39.159 --> 00:42:42.239
<v Speaker 2>see that. The world wasn't like, oh, it's gay. Never mind,

814
00:42:42.239 --> 00:42:44.800
<v Speaker 2>it's not for me because he's gay, And that was

815
00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:49.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, if I'd done it ten years earlier, then

816
00:42:50.039 --> 00:42:53.440
<v Speaker 2>that would have been a completely different story. So I

817
00:42:53.519 --> 00:42:56.800
<v Speaker 2>was just fortunate to come along, you know, to that

818
00:42:57.360 --> 00:43:01.079
<v Speaker 2>so much had happened before I got I arrived, I suppose.

819
00:43:01.519 --> 00:43:03.760
<v Speaker 1>But the reason I bring it up is because it

820
00:43:03.800 --> 00:43:09.519
<v Speaker 1>does seem like what's happening now. So being gay as

821
00:43:09.519 --> 00:43:12.000
<v Speaker 1>a sort of an abstract identity, right, like I'm a

822
00:43:12.039 --> 00:43:14.199
<v Speaker 1>gay person. That means I date and want to marry

823
00:43:14.199 --> 00:43:17.480
<v Speaker 1>someone of the same gender, whatever, it seems like. The

824
00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:20.920
<v Speaker 1>part that we're now grappling with is everything around it,

825
00:43:21.039 --> 00:43:24.599
<v Speaker 1>like wanting to wear skirts, being more feminine, right, and

826
00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:28.360
<v Speaker 1>defying other aspects of what it means to be a

827
00:43:28.480 --> 00:43:33.960
<v Speaker 1>true like sort of masculine man. And I know, as

828
00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:37.280
<v Speaker 1>I think about what when I was made fun of

829
00:43:37.320 --> 00:43:39.320
<v Speaker 1>when I was a kid, right like, I was called

830
00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:41.599
<v Speaker 1>gay a million times. I was a little bit of feminine,

831
00:43:41.960 --> 00:43:45.920
<v Speaker 1>but it was it was becoming okay to be gay,

832
00:43:46.039 --> 00:43:48.679
<v Speaker 1>but it wasn't okay to be a mincing little queen,

833
00:43:48.880 --> 00:43:53.320
<v Speaker 1>right like. And it does seem like right now there's

834
00:43:53.360 --> 00:43:57.639
<v Speaker 1>a real kind of pushback from the right about defying

835
00:43:57.800 --> 00:43:59.880
<v Speaker 1>the gender norms. Like they're okay with a Scott Best

836
00:44:00.039 --> 00:44:03.039
<v Speaker 1>it's being the secretary of the Treasury, but they worry

837
00:44:03.039 --> 00:44:05.440
<v Speaker 1>a lot about what happens if if a man shows

838
00:44:05.480 --> 00:44:09.519
<v Speaker 1>up in makeup in a skirt, And I wonder how

839
00:44:09.559 --> 00:44:12.119
<v Speaker 1>you think about that as somebody that has like sort

840
00:44:12.159 --> 00:44:17.280
<v Speaker 1>of been publicly identified as gay for so long.

841
00:44:18.320 --> 00:44:24.639
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, I feel I remember when I was young,

842
00:44:25.320 --> 00:44:27.920
<v Speaker 2>and like I moved, I lived in San Francisco for

843
00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:31.519
<v Speaker 2>one summer, right and I remember it was like a

844
00:44:31.559 --> 00:44:33.800
<v Speaker 2>pride parade there in San Francisco, And it must have

845
00:44:33.840 --> 00:44:37.360
<v Speaker 2>been it was like summer of nineteen seventy six or something, right,

846
00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:41.000
<v Speaker 2>But I remember there were drag queens at the beginning

847
00:44:41.079 --> 00:44:44.719
<v Speaker 2>of the parade, and I remember being embarrassed, you know,

848
00:44:44.840 --> 00:44:48.119
<v Speaker 2>and thinking, oh, I don't want people to think that

849
00:44:48.119 --> 00:44:53.000
<v Speaker 2>that's what gay people are like, right, And now I

850
00:44:53.199 --> 00:44:57.159
<v Speaker 2>just now I think the opposite. When I see somebody

851
00:44:57.199 --> 00:45:01.519
<v Speaker 2>being like a massive like sissy or something, it just

852
00:45:01.559 --> 00:45:03.800
<v Speaker 2>warms my heart, you know, and I'm just so happy

853
00:45:03.880 --> 00:45:08.039
<v Speaker 2>that they just be in themselves. And I can see how,

854
00:45:09.280 --> 00:45:12.079
<v Speaker 2>you know, it can make someone uncomfortable because you're not sure,

855
00:45:13.159 --> 00:45:15.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, like when I'm signing books, like you don't

856
00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:20.559
<v Speaker 2>know sometimes you know how you maybe should address somebody,

857
00:45:20.719 --> 00:45:22.679
<v Speaker 2>or if somebody gives you a book and then it's

858
00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:27.199
<v Speaker 2>got well, especially like a name like Zia on it,

859
00:45:27.320 --> 00:45:31.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, and then is that Zia is zea somebody else?

860
00:45:31.960 --> 00:45:32.159
<v Speaker 1>You know?

861
00:45:32.320 --> 00:45:36.760
<v Speaker 2>So I always say, uh, who's Zia? And then sometimes

862
00:45:36.800 --> 00:45:39.119
<v Speaker 2>people like I am and I say, well, I'm asking

863
00:45:39.159 --> 00:45:41.320
<v Speaker 2>because it could be your cousin, it could be you know,

864
00:45:41.360 --> 00:45:43.280
<v Speaker 2>it could be anyone. So I have a nice out

865
00:45:43.400 --> 00:45:46.440
<v Speaker 2>that way that you don't necessarily have in day to

866
00:45:46.559 --> 00:45:50.079
<v Speaker 2>day life. But I think it just makes people uncomfortable.

867
00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:53.280
<v Speaker 2>Like if I'm wearing a skirt, I don't see any

868
00:45:53.360 --> 00:45:57.360
<v Speaker 2>reason for anyone to call me ma'am. Or it's just

869
00:45:57.400 --> 00:46:00.239
<v Speaker 2>a skirt. I don't have any makeup on it. Wort

870
00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:04.920
<v Speaker 2>code on and you know, I guess I don't care

871
00:46:04.960 --> 00:46:07.760
<v Speaker 2>if they're uncomfortable. I suppose that's a difference.

872
00:46:07.559 --> 00:46:09.960
<v Speaker 1>Right, But I do think part like I'm interested in,

873
00:46:10.039 --> 00:46:11.719
<v Speaker 1>like what is that discomfort?

874
00:46:11.840 --> 00:46:12.000
<v Speaker 3>Right?

875
00:46:12.079 --> 00:46:15.320
<v Speaker 1>Like You'll turn on Fox News and there'll be somebody saying, like,

876
00:46:15.559 --> 00:46:17.719
<v Speaker 1>you know, real men don't sing Happy Birthday, Real men

877
00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:20.039
<v Speaker 1>don't drink soup, Real men don't have straws, right, like

878
00:46:20.280 --> 00:46:24.079
<v Speaker 1>constraining constraining what it means to be a man to

879
00:46:24.159 --> 00:46:27.079
<v Speaker 1>this really really narrow box. And I wonder how much

880
00:46:27.079 --> 00:46:30.440
<v Speaker 1>of that discomfort people feel is in the same way

881
00:46:30.519 --> 00:46:33.840
<v Speaker 1>someone you know is understands that voting for Trump might

882
00:46:33.880 --> 00:46:37.000
<v Speaker 1>be wrong in some way that like they're like I

883
00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:39.440
<v Speaker 1>spend a long time building this prison, Like how dare you?

884
00:46:39.840 --> 00:46:42.079
<v Speaker 1>How dare you try to escape? Like this is where

885
00:46:42.119 --> 00:46:45.840
<v Speaker 1>I live. I feel safe here well in a lot

886
00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:46.239
<v Speaker 1>of ways.

887
00:46:46.280 --> 00:46:50.119
<v Speaker 2>And I think a lot of people would be surprised

888
00:46:50.159 --> 00:46:53.400
<v Speaker 2>by that. But I feel sorry for straight guys, you know,

889
00:46:53.480 --> 00:46:55.920
<v Speaker 2>I feel sorry that they're in their prison, and I

890
00:46:55.960 --> 00:46:59.440
<v Speaker 2>feel sorry that sometimes I feel like they don't know

891
00:46:59.440 --> 00:47:01.679
<v Speaker 2>how to talk people, you know, like if you're listening

892
00:47:01.719 --> 00:47:04.239
<v Speaker 2>in conversation on a plane and there are two guys

893
00:47:04.239 --> 00:47:06.800
<v Speaker 2>in front of you who you know, strangers who were talking.

894
00:47:07.639 --> 00:47:10.599
<v Speaker 2>I just I just feel bad. I feel bad that

895
00:47:10.639 --> 00:47:15.360
<v Speaker 2>they don't again, that their confines are so narrow.

896
00:47:16.159 --> 00:47:20.039
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I had this. I remember realizing that I was

897
00:47:20.280 --> 00:47:23.039
<v Speaker 1>that I was a worse friend to my straight friends,

898
00:47:23.239 --> 00:47:27.880
<v Speaker 1>my straight male friends, because I was less effeminate. And

899
00:47:27.920 --> 00:47:31.519
<v Speaker 1>what came with being effeminate was being thoughtful, you know,

900
00:47:32.039 --> 00:47:34.480
<v Speaker 1>like asking people about their dad. You know, like there's

901
00:47:34.480 --> 00:47:38.480
<v Speaker 1>a there's a way you are with with with, there's

902
00:47:38.480 --> 00:47:41.679
<v Speaker 1>a way gay men are that is more feminine, and

903
00:47:41.719 --> 00:47:46.119
<v Speaker 1>part of it is just being i don't know, thoughtful, considerate, sweet, right,

904
00:47:46.159 --> 00:47:48.199
<v Speaker 1>And I was, And I remember realizing like, oh, when

905
00:47:48.199 --> 00:47:51.599
<v Speaker 1>I'm with my straight male friends, I act more like them,

906
00:47:52.000 --> 00:47:54.840
<v Speaker 1>and I'm much worse in basically every respects right, Like

907
00:47:54.840 --> 00:47:57.920
<v Speaker 1>I would never think to be like be like if

908
00:47:57.960 --> 00:48:00.440
<v Speaker 1>I'm in my kind of in that straight oh you're

909
00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:02.719
<v Speaker 1>kind of like you would never be like, so how's

910
00:48:02.760 --> 00:48:04.760
<v Speaker 1>your mother doing? Like, you know, is she getting better

911
00:48:04.840 --> 00:48:06.760
<v Speaker 1>from her fall? Like you wouldn't say anything like that,

912
00:48:06.840 --> 00:48:08.639
<v Speaker 1>which just doesn't come up in straight world.

913
00:48:09.320 --> 00:48:12.519
<v Speaker 2>I was in an elevator and I was in Atlanta

914
00:48:12.559 --> 00:48:15.039
<v Speaker 2>a few weeks ago. And I'm going down for breakfast

915
00:48:15.079 --> 00:48:17.320
<v Speaker 2>and this guy gets on the elevator and I said, oh,

916
00:48:17.360 --> 00:48:19.800
<v Speaker 2>I saw you on my plane last night. I said,

917
00:48:19.519 --> 00:48:23.400
<v Speaker 2>I I noticed your shoes. You know, that's such a

918
00:48:23.480 --> 00:48:26.800
<v Speaker 2>thing that would be so scary, like to a straight

919
00:48:26.840 --> 00:48:30.519
<v Speaker 2>guy A remembered them and be that you were looking

920
00:48:30.559 --> 00:48:31.320
<v Speaker 2>at his shoes.

921
00:48:31.639 --> 00:48:33.199
<v Speaker 1>You know what was the reaction? How did it go?

922
00:48:33.559 --> 00:48:36.199
<v Speaker 2>Well, he was wearing shoes without a back to them,

923
00:48:36.239 --> 00:48:36.880
<v Speaker 2>so of course he.

924
00:48:36.880 --> 00:48:39.800
<v Speaker 1>Was gay, right, So it all borked out. Yeah, sorry,

925
00:48:39.840 --> 00:48:41.119
<v Speaker 1>I just ended up for making sure you're talking to

926
00:48:41.159 --> 00:48:51.920
<v Speaker 1>another game and Positive America is brought to you by Chime.

927
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<v Speaker 1>You referred to Hugh as your boyfriend. He's your husband? Yeah? Right, yeah,

961
00:50:27.400 --> 00:50:33.039
<v Speaker 1>uh huh, still uncomfortable. I don't like the word. I yeah,

962
00:50:33.079 --> 00:50:38.079
<v Speaker 1>he's a man. I'm married, right, What what's the problem.

963
00:50:38.280 --> 00:50:42.000
<v Speaker 1>He's your husband and I don't like the word. Do

964
00:50:42.159 --> 00:50:42.880
<v Speaker 1>You got married?

965
00:50:43.159 --> 00:50:47.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, just for financial reasons, right. It was a shotgun

966
00:50:47.639 --> 00:50:51.440
<v Speaker 2>wedding arranged by my banker, and I don't want to

967
00:50:51.440 --> 00:50:52.559
<v Speaker 2>marry anybody else.

968
00:50:52.800 --> 00:50:53.000
<v Speaker 1>You know.

969
00:50:53.119 --> 00:50:55.239
<v Speaker 2>I didn't mean anything to be mean to be married.

970
00:50:55.440 --> 00:50:59.840
<v Speaker 2>I didn't choke up. I didn't, I don't. It was

971
00:51:00.440 --> 00:51:03.280
<v Speaker 2>It was just a legal thing to me.

972
00:51:04.920 --> 00:51:09.199
<v Speaker 1>I just got married. Any advice for a long and

973
00:51:09.280 --> 00:51:11.679
<v Speaker 1>successful relationship.

974
00:51:11.320 --> 00:51:13.320
<v Speaker 2>I do. Hugh and I have been together for thirty

975
00:51:13.480 --> 00:51:19.039
<v Speaker 2>six years. Never talk about your relationship to that other

976
00:51:19.079 --> 00:51:20.440
<v Speaker 2>person ever.

977
00:51:20.760 --> 00:51:21.440
<v Speaker 1>Never talk about it.

978
00:51:21.559 --> 00:51:26.559
<v Speaker 2>Never talk about it, because that just it doesn't bear.

979
00:51:27.639 --> 00:51:31.039
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't bear that the harsh light of scrutiny. You

980
00:51:31.079 --> 00:51:33.239
<v Speaker 2>can talk about it with other people, right, You can

981
00:51:33.280 --> 00:51:37.760
<v Speaker 2>complain about them, but don't talk about it with that person, Right.

982
00:51:37.800 --> 00:51:39.599
<v Speaker 1>It's sort of like talking about happiness. If you're talking

983
00:51:39.599 --> 00:51:43.800
<v Speaker 1>about it, you aren't it. Don't talk about your relationship.

984
00:51:43.800 --> 00:51:46.760
<v Speaker 1>That's pretty good. Now I noticed something else in one

985
00:51:46.760 --> 00:51:49.119
<v Speaker 1>of these essays. You also are deeply uncomfortable talking about

986
00:51:49.159 --> 00:51:50.519
<v Speaker 1>your bowel movements in front of you.

987
00:51:50.679 --> 00:51:53.039
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, No, I've never had one, and he's

988
00:51:53.079 --> 00:51:53.760
<v Speaker 2>never had one.

989
00:51:53.840 --> 00:51:56.840
<v Speaker 1>What is that? What is what? So that's the way

990
00:51:56.840 --> 00:51:59.920
<v Speaker 1>you're talking about, But so what is it about feminine mists?

991
00:52:00.519 --> 00:52:04.119
<v Speaker 1>I don't know what you're talking but so, I like

992
00:52:04.239 --> 00:52:06.840
<v Speaker 1>I noticed, I definitely feel like there's two kinds of relationships,

993
00:52:06.840 --> 00:52:08.440
<v Speaker 1>and I don't think there's a middle ground. There are

994
00:52:08.480 --> 00:52:10.639
<v Speaker 1>couples for whom the bathroom is just a room with

995
00:52:10.679 --> 00:52:14.039
<v Speaker 1>a sink and a shower, yeah, and that's it. And

996
00:52:14.079 --> 00:52:16.920
<v Speaker 1>then there are couples that are just fully in it

997
00:52:17.280 --> 00:52:20.920
<v Speaker 1>about every detail. I'm in that category. We talk about everything,

998
00:52:21.199 --> 00:52:24.440
<v Speaker 1>We go into great detail, and it brings us closer together.

999
00:52:24.519 --> 00:52:27.519
<v Speaker 1>Don't you want to what your leave? Like?

1000
00:52:27.599 --> 00:52:28.079
<v Speaker 4>How do you know?

1001
00:52:28.679 --> 00:52:31.159
<v Speaker 1>But how can you know a person? A big part

1002
00:52:31.199 --> 00:52:34.000
<v Speaker 1>of every day, David, is the part of the day

1003
00:52:34.159 --> 00:52:36.519
<v Speaker 1>where you had either a good shit or a bad shit.

1004
00:52:36.679 --> 00:52:40.480
<v Speaker 1>It's a big right, No, come on, you know, I

1005
00:52:40.519 --> 00:52:43.400
<v Speaker 1>have no idea what you're talking about. So you come

1006
00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:46.159
<v Speaker 1>home from a long trip and Hugh is in a

1007
00:52:46.199 --> 00:52:48.960
<v Speaker 1>bad mood. He's just a bit upset, and you don't

1008
00:52:49.039 --> 00:52:53.360
<v Speaker 1>know why. It might be because he's having stomach trouble.

1009
00:52:53.519 --> 00:52:56.480
<v Speaker 1>But you'll just never know that. You'll never know that

1010
00:52:56.559 --> 00:52:58.800
<v Speaker 1>he's been he's been, Oh, I was sorry, And he's

1011
00:52:58.840 --> 00:53:03.239
<v Speaker 1>never known that about me. But then it's it's but

1012
00:53:03.239 --> 00:53:06.719
<v Speaker 1>then you're strangers to me. No, there's plenty of other stuff.

1013
00:53:06.719 --> 00:53:07.159
<v Speaker 1>We know this.

1014
00:53:07.320 --> 00:53:10.599
<v Speaker 2>It's nice to have a little window of mystery, you know,

1015
00:53:10.760 --> 00:53:13.559
<v Speaker 2>Like I know people couples who like fart in front

1016
00:53:13.599 --> 00:53:16.079
<v Speaker 2>of each other and do things you're not in.

1017
00:53:16.119 --> 00:53:17.760
<v Speaker 1>Front of each other. What are you getting up and

1018
00:53:17.760 --> 00:53:21.639
<v Speaker 1>going to happen? Come on, what are you talking about?

1019
00:53:21.719 --> 00:53:24.679
<v Speaker 2>If somebody has an accident every now and then, it's

1020
00:53:24.719 --> 00:53:29.760
<v Speaker 2>never acknowledged, never mentioned, never ever ever ever. And you

1021
00:53:29.800 --> 00:53:33.599
<v Speaker 2>know what, I'm really glad because both of us are

1022
00:53:33.679 --> 00:53:36.519
<v Speaker 2>like that. So if just one person was like that,

1023
00:53:36.599 --> 00:53:37.679
<v Speaker 2>then it would be pretty hard.

1024
00:53:37.679 --> 00:53:39.239
<v Speaker 1>Well, I don't think those people make it. I don't

1025
00:53:39.239 --> 00:53:41.039
<v Speaker 1>think I think that's what divorces. I think it's people

1026
00:53:41.079 --> 00:53:43.320
<v Speaker 1>finding out that they're that they're they're with the wrong

1027
00:53:43.320 --> 00:53:45.239
<v Speaker 1>person because they want to they want to talk about it,

1028
00:53:45.280 --> 00:53:46.760
<v Speaker 1>and the other person doesn't. It's like he can't build

1029
00:53:46.760 --> 00:53:47.599
<v Speaker 1>the life with something like that.

1030
00:53:48.159 --> 00:53:52.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, Hugh and I Nope, never been discussed. I

1031
00:53:52.039 --> 00:53:55.719
<v Speaker 2>don't know what it would be now if if uh,

1032
00:53:57.320 --> 00:54:02.360
<v Speaker 2>like if I get colon, colon cancer, rectal cancer, sure

1033
00:54:03.199 --> 00:54:04.079
<v Speaker 2>he will never know.

1034
00:54:05.119 --> 00:54:08.639
<v Speaker 1>I will go see I will say.

1035
00:54:08.719 --> 00:54:11.760
<v Speaker 2>I have to go to the hospital for a few weeks.

1036
00:54:12.920 --> 00:54:15.559
<v Speaker 1>I will say, uh, why even tell him that I'm going.

1037
00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:19.119
<v Speaker 1>I have a little trip I need to take. So well,

1038
00:54:19.239 --> 00:54:20.920
<v Speaker 1>you know you're getting You went right to the right

1039
00:54:20.960 --> 00:54:23.280
<v Speaker 1>you went. Your mind went to correctly. I know where

1040
00:54:23.280 --> 00:54:25.519
<v Speaker 1>your mind went, which is to the fact that you

1041
00:54:25.599 --> 00:54:27.960
<v Speaker 1>have an aging body, as we all do, and you're

1042
00:54:28.119 --> 00:54:30.480
<v Speaker 1>in one of the stories. You basically are repulsed by

1043
00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:32.760
<v Speaker 1>the fact that he needs, for a time after a

1044
00:54:32.840 --> 00:54:35.760
<v Speaker 1>hip surgery to have one of those cushy, higher toilet seats,

1045
00:54:35.960 --> 00:54:40.480
<v Speaker 1>which you compare to a coffin. You both have human

1046
00:54:40.599 --> 00:54:43.719
<v Speaker 1>bodies that will slowly fail over time, and the best

1047
00:54:43.800 --> 00:54:47.599
<v Speaker 1>case scenario is that you're holding someone's hand as they

1048
00:54:47.599 --> 00:54:51.679
<v Speaker 1>lose control of their body. Uh, but you're together in

1049
00:54:51.760 --> 00:54:54.679
<v Speaker 1>the end, Like, there's no avoiding the fact that that

1050
00:54:54.760 --> 00:54:57.760
<v Speaker 1>you have a corpus and it will decay before each other. Right,

1051
00:54:57.800 --> 00:54:59.159
<v Speaker 1>isn't that the goal? But I don't.

1052
00:54:59.519 --> 00:55:02.119
<v Speaker 2>I don't the needs to put him on the toilet

1053
00:55:02.239 --> 00:55:05.199
<v Speaker 2>now to prepare for putt him on the toilet twenty

1054
00:55:05.320 --> 00:55:07.159
<v Speaker 2>years from now, twenty years from now.

1055
00:55:07.239 --> 00:55:08.760
<v Speaker 1>If I have to do it, I'll do it. But

1056
00:55:08.840 --> 00:55:10.679
<v Speaker 1>I doubt that. But now, all of a sudden, at

1057
00:55:10.679 --> 00:55:12.639
<v Speaker 1>the very end of your relationship, you're going to finally

1058
00:55:12.639 --> 00:55:14.360
<v Speaker 1>have to talk about this thing that you've been avoiding.

1059
00:55:14.360 --> 00:55:16.559
<v Speaker 1>Your will never talk about it. We'll never talk about it.

1060
00:55:16.639 --> 00:55:21.280
<v Speaker 2>I'll never talk about it never. If if hughes like

1061
00:55:21.360 --> 00:55:26.320
<v Speaker 2>in his nineties and he soils himself, we will never

1062
00:55:26.440 --> 00:55:29.719
<v Speaker 2>talk about it ever, ever, ever talk about it.

1063
00:55:30.079 --> 00:55:33.119
<v Speaker 1>Are you thinking about what these look your document? You

1064
00:55:33.199 --> 00:55:35.480
<v Speaker 1>know you've been writing in your diary. Did you write

1065
00:55:35.480 --> 00:55:38.159
<v Speaker 1>in your diary today? Ends, Yeah, you've been writing in

1066
00:55:38.199 --> 00:55:39.760
<v Speaker 1>your diary day. Do you think about what those last

1067
00:55:39.880 --> 00:55:40.519
<v Speaker 1>entries are going to be?

1068
00:55:40.639 --> 00:55:45.840
<v Speaker 2>Like, I think it's easier to conceive of our death

1069
00:55:46.199 --> 00:55:49.039
<v Speaker 2>than it is of our decrepitude, you know, and the

1070
00:55:49.079 --> 00:55:53.760
<v Speaker 2>thought of being in an assisted living center in one room,

1071
00:55:54.920 --> 00:55:57.760
<v Speaker 2>your life reduced to one room like my dad's was,

1072
00:55:57.960 --> 00:56:02.559
<v Speaker 2>and all your friends are dead and you're defcating in

1073
00:56:02.559 --> 00:56:08.199
<v Speaker 2>your pants maybe or you're you're unable to get up

1074
00:56:08.239 --> 00:56:14.480
<v Speaker 2>from your bed. I being dead, I can think, sure, yeah,

1075
00:56:14.559 --> 00:56:19.920
<v Speaker 2>but that is just to know that that's coming, or

1076
00:56:19.960 --> 00:56:22.239
<v Speaker 2>to think, so, Hugh and I we were going to

1077
00:56:22.360 --> 00:56:25.920
<v Speaker 2>throw ourselves off the terrace, you know, of our apartment building,

1078
00:56:26.719 --> 00:56:28.519
<v Speaker 2>but then he didn't want to make a mess, and

1079
00:56:28.599 --> 00:56:31.039
<v Speaker 2>so we're going to put ourselves in body bags first

1080
00:56:31.320 --> 00:56:32.360
<v Speaker 2>and then throw ourselves.

1081
00:56:32.599 --> 00:56:35.280
<v Speaker 1>That is considerate. That is considerate. You know you got

1082
00:56:35.320 --> 00:56:37.079
<v Speaker 1>to I would say double rapid, because who knows what

1083
00:56:37.199 --> 00:56:38.519
<v Speaker 1>kind of splat that You know, you're gonna make a

1084
00:56:38.559 --> 00:56:40.800
<v Speaker 1>lot of impact and then boom, you're coming out the sides.

1085
00:56:41.000 --> 00:56:44.960
<v Speaker 2>I spent ten days at the Medical Examiner's office in Phoenix,

1086
00:56:45.360 --> 00:56:48.000
<v Speaker 2>so I know, I know what it looks like, and

1087
00:56:48.039 --> 00:56:50.960
<v Speaker 2>I know that's why you're right, double body bags is

1088
00:56:51.000 --> 00:56:51.840
<v Speaker 2>a really good idea.

1089
00:56:52.639 --> 00:56:55.360
<v Speaker 1>All right, So if something good came out of this conversation, well,

1090
00:56:55.400 --> 00:56:57.760
<v Speaker 1>here's the thing I would say, too, But like, isn't

1091
00:56:57.760 --> 00:57:00.280
<v Speaker 1>a part of you like ready, like you will have

1092
00:57:00.360 --> 00:57:05.440
<v Speaker 1>an interesting perspective on what it's like to slowly, uh

1093
00:57:06.159 --> 00:57:09.239
<v Speaker 1>decline in one room as all your friends die. Isn't

1094
00:57:09.239 --> 00:57:11.800
<v Speaker 1>that the final isn't Aren't those the stories you sort

1095
00:57:11.840 --> 00:57:13.360
<v Speaker 1>of need, we need you to write because it'll be

1096
00:57:13.360 --> 00:57:15.239
<v Speaker 1>helpful to other people that are going through it. Isn't

1097
00:57:15.239 --> 00:57:19.800
<v Speaker 1>there something beautiful like about getting getting that last experience

1098
00:57:19.840 --> 00:57:21.599
<v Speaker 1>which is so common for people? Yeah?

1099
00:57:21.679 --> 00:57:26.000
<v Speaker 2>I think the thing is though Calvin Tompkins died recently,

1100
00:57:26.079 --> 00:57:29.480
<v Speaker 2>the art critic for The New Yorker, and he was

1101
00:57:29.480 --> 00:57:32.519
<v Speaker 2>was he a hundred or was he? But the thing

1102
00:57:32.559 --> 00:57:35.840
<v Speaker 2>too is that you can his eyes were really failing

1103
00:57:35.880 --> 00:57:37.679
<v Speaker 2>him at the end. So you could be in a

1104
00:57:37.719 --> 00:57:40.719
<v Speaker 2>situation where you couldn't write, you know, when you're really sick,

1105
00:57:41.440 --> 00:57:45.119
<v Speaker 2>you can't sit up, you know, like if you were

1106
00:57:46.440 --> 00:57:49.159
<v Speaker 2>so you look, it's a nice idea that you could

1107
00:57:49.199 --> 00:57:52.760
<v Speaker 2>write until the day you die, but you have no

1108
00:57:52.840 --> 00:57:57.480
<v Speaker 2>control over it, you know. So maybe if gee, if

1109
00:57:58.000 --> 00:58:02.519
<v Speaker 2>Hugh's mother right, huge, I've never known anyone who reads

1110
00:58:02.559 --> 00:58:07.760
<v Speaker 2>more than her, And now she can't read, and she's

1111
00:58:07.840 --> 00:58:11.199
<v Speaker 2>ninety five and she's just sort of parked in front

1112
00:58:11.239 --> 00:58:15.400
<v Speaker 2>of a TV her worst nightmare, and she can't read

1113
00:58:15.400 --> 00:58:17.480
<v Speaker 2>a book, and even if you gave her an audio book,

1114
00:58:17.559 --> 00:58:22.079
<v Speaker 2>she can't focus on anything. So again, I don't necessarily

1115
00:58:22.079 --> 00:58:24.880
<v Speaker 2>have control. I'd like to be able to write until

1116
00:58:26.320 --> 00:58:29.760
<v Speaker 2>the end of my life, even I don't mean that

1117
00:58:30.920 --> 00:58:32.960
<v Speaker 2>to write in order to put a book out, but

1118
00:58:33.159 --> 00:58:36.039
<v Speaker 2>just you know, I've done it every single day of

1119
00:58:36.039 --> 00:58:38.360
<v Speaker 2>my life for the last fifty years. So I don't

1120
00:58:38.400 --> 00:58:41.320
<v Speaker 2>know who I would be without it, regardless of it

1121
00:58:41.400 --> 00:58:44.079
<v Speaker 2>being published or not. I just don't know.

1122
00:58:45.920 --> 00:58:51.920
<v Speaker 1>How I would how I would know who I am.

1123
00:58:52.000 --> 00:58:58.119
<v Speaker 1>I suppose, so I said, maybe it's the kind of

1124
00:58:58.119 --> 00:59:01.119
<v Speaker 1>thing where you wait for the the kind of double

1125
00:59:01.159 --> 00:59:04.760
<v Speaker 1>wrapped phase you can you can age into decrepitude, but

1126
00:59:04.760 --> 00:59:06.440
<v Speaker 1>then when you finally can't write, then you do the

1127
00:59:06.480 --> 00:59:08.599
<v Speaker 1>double backing. Right, maybe sort of, let's just hold off,

1128
00:59:08.679 --> 00:59:10.719
<v Speaker 1>let's put a pin in the double bagging until But

1129
00:59:10.760 --> 00:59:11.239
<v Speaker 1>I think.

1130
00:59:11.119 --> 00:59:15.199
<v Speaker 2>It's unfair, And I think it's unfair that you can't.

1131
00:59:15.440 --> 00:59:18.239
<v Speaker 2>You know, your insurance policy, your life insurance won't pay.

1132
00:59:18.079 --> 00:59:20.280
<v Speaker 1>Off you if you kill yourself.

1133
00:59:20.320 --> 00:59:23.840
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I understand the problems with changing that, but

1134
00:59:24.760 --> 00:59:27.480
<v Speaker 2>I just don't think it's fair to expect people to

1135
00:59:27.519 --> 00:59:34.480
<v Speaker 2>put up with that amount of misery and and you know,

1136
00:59:34.760 --> 00:59:38.400
<v Speaker 2>like if you're defecating in your pants and somebody's clean

1137
00:59:38.480 --> 00:59:40.800
<v Speaker 2>you up and then you're just like, oh, I'm sorry,

1138
00:59:40.840 --> 00:59:42.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry, I'm sorry, and you're not even having a

1139
00:59:43.000 --> 00:59:46.360
<v Speaker 2>good time, you know, like the like the rest of

1140
00:59:46.360 --> 00:59:48.320
<v Speaker 2>your days and not going to be any better than that.

1141
00:59:49.719 --> 00:59:52.480
<v Speaker 2>I don't see why you shouldn't be able to kill yourself.

1142
00:59:52.519 --> 00:59:57.519
<v Speaker 2>I I have this idea for Canyon Day, and it's

1143
00:59:57.639 --> 00:59:58.800
<v Speaker 2>you put logs.

1144
01:00:00.199 --> 01:00:06.119
<v Speaker 4>You you put logs around the Grand Canyon, right just along

1145
01:00:06.199 --> 01:00:08.079
<v Speaker 4>the lip of the Grand Pan, and you take people

1146
01:00:08.079 --> 01:00:11.679
<v Speaker 4>there at night and then so if they trip over.

1147
01:00:11.519 --> 01:00:16.599
<v Speaker 1>A log and fall into the Grand Canyon, so it's

1148
01:00:16.639 --> 01:00:19.360
<v Speaker 1>like a little loophole, yeah, where it's it's called like

1149
01:00:19.599 --> 01:00:22.159
<v Speaker 1>the so it's to get to get the insurance to

1150
01:00:22.159 --> 01:00:24.280
<v Speaker 1>pay out that it's just a lot of people tripping

1151
01:00:24.320 --> 01:00:25.199
<v Speaker 1>on the Grand Canyon.

1152
01:00:25.480 --> 01:00:27.559
<v Speaker 2>It would be called Canyon Day. And then if you

1153
01:00:27.800 --> 01:00:30.719
<v Speaker 2>wanted to participate in Canyon Day, you would be allowed to.

1154
01:00:31.519 --> 01:00:33.400
<v Speaker 1>Well. I think that's a great idea. I'm not sure

1155
01:00:33.440 --> 01:00:35.360
<v Speaker 1>the insurance companies aren't going to catch wise to it

1156
01:00:35.400 --> 01:00:38.280
<v Speaker 1>pretty quickly. Suddenly, Hey, we've seen a huge uptake in

1157
01:00:38.400 --> 01:00:41.280
<v Speaker 1>accidental deaths on the Arizona side of the Grand Canyon.

1158
01:00:41.320 --> 01:00:43.599
<v Speaker 1>But hey, it's a great it's a great thought.

1159
01:00:43.639 --> 01:00:45.559
<v Speaker 2>Before you know, I shared it with somebody and they said,

1160
01:00:45.679 --> 01:00:47.760
<v Speaker 2>what if you don't die, don't you hate people like that?

1161
01:00:49.679 --> 01:00:52.480
<v Speaker 1>Never? I mean, it's a pretty long fall. I know what.

1162
01:00:52.599 --> 01:00:54.880
<v Speaker 2>There's no way you're plus you're going to be decrapit

1163
01:00:55.000 --> 01:00:58.360
<v Speaker 2>to begin with, Like you know, even saying that what

1164
01:00:58.440 --> 01:01:00.599
<v Speaker 2>if you don't die, you can die.

1165
01:01:00.760 --> 01:01:03.159
<v Speaker 1>You're gonna die. That's not the problem with it. Listen,

1166
01:01:03.199 --> 01:01:04.760
<v Speaker 1>I want you to know something. There's a lot of

1167
01:01:04.760 --> 01:01:07.719
<v Speaker 1>problems with that plan, all right, that's not one. That's

1168
01:01:07.719 --> 01:01:09.519
<v Speaker 1>not one of them. It's a big fall down there.

1169
01:01:09.519 --> 01:01:12.119
<v Speaker 1>It's a big hangar. It's grant, it's grand. That's why

1170
01:01:12.159 --> 01:01:14.039
<v Speaker 1>they named the burger after it. Before we let you go,

1171
01:01:15.920 --> 01:01:17.679
<v Speaker 1>I want to get just a rapid fire a few things.

1172
01:01:17.719 --> 01:01:20.239
<v Speaker 1>See where your head's at. People saying no problem instead

1173
01:01:20.239 --> 01:01:25.280
<v Speaker 1>of you're welcome. That doesn't bother me. Really, Yeah, But

1174
01:01:25.320 --> 01:01:28.840
<v Speaker 1>you don't like perfect when people say, oh, perfect, perfect, perfect.

1175
01:01:29.199 --> 01:01:31.599
<v Speaker 2>I was at a hotel the other day and I

1176
01:01:31.679 --> 01:01:36.639
<v Speaker 2>and I and the woman said perfect five times before

1177
01:01:36.800 --> 01:01:40.440
<v Speaker 2>I even sat down at the table. And they're told

1178
01:01:40.440 --> 01:01:43.559
<v Speaker 2>in hotels like if you say wonderful or terrific, that's

1179
01:01:43.599 --> 01:01:46.000
<v Speaker 2>not positive enough. See you have to say perfect.

1180
01:01:46.320 --> 01:01:48.480
<v Speaker 1>But no problem. I know people who are bothered by

1181
01:01:48.519 --> 01:01:49.199
<v Speaker 1>no problem.

1182
01:01:49.480 --> 01:01:52.119
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't I know people too who are bothered by

1183
01:01:52.239 --> 01:01:54.000
<v Speaker 2>of course, could I have another coffee?

1184
01:01:54.039 --> 01:01:56.719
<v Speaker 1>Of course? And there are people who don't like of course.

1185
01:01:57.000 --> 01:02:00.159
<v Speaker 1>I have no problem with it. Okay, emojis.

1186
01:02:00.760 --> 01:02:06.960
<v Speaker 2>I used one one time, just an egg plant. No

1187
01:02:07.159 --> 01:02:10.360
<v Speaker 2>it was it was a huge sister, and I don't

1188
01:02:10.400 --> 01:02:11.400
<v Speaker 2>remember what it was.

1189
01:02:11.559 --> 01:02:17.920
<v Speaker 1>I don't like to text. Okay. College professors are signing

1190
01:02:17.920 --> 01:02:20.199
<v Speaker 1>fewer books and more excerpts because their students have lower

1191
01:02:20.199 --> 01:02:21.000
<v Speaker 1>attention spans.

1192
01:02:23.599 --> 01:02:29.239
<v Speaker 2>Gosh, that makes me sad, you know. But that said,

1193
01:02:29.239 --> 01:02:30.880
<v Speaker 2>if I were in college and then I had to

1194
01:02:30.920 --> 01:02:34.280
<v Speaker 2>read Moby Dick by tomorrow, I'd be like, fuck, I

1195
01:02:34.280 --> 01:02:35.960
<v Speaker 2>got to read Mumby Dick by tomorrow.

1196
01:02:36.000 --> 01:02:38.400
<v Speaker 1>You can skip the whaling chapters. Yeah, that's the key

1197
01:02:38.400 --> 01:02:40.039
<v Speaker 1>thing with reading Mobi Dick. People need to know that

1198
01:02:40.079 --> 01:02:42.280
<v Speaker 1>there's a lot of whaling chapters in there with detailed

1199
01:02:43.280 --> 01:02:46.360
<v Speaker 1>information about the technique. You don't need those chapters.

1200
01:02:46.440 --> 01:02:49.360
<v Speaker 2>Well, I wrote something one time about I was writing

1201
01:02:49.400 --> 01:02:51.960
<v Speaker 2>for Esquire and they did an issue what every man

1202
01:02:52.000 --> 01:02:55.199
<v Speaker 2>should do before the age of whatever, and so I said,

1203
01:02:55.199 --> 01:02:58.760
<v Speaker 2>read Moby Dick. So I started reading it, and I

1204
01:02:58.880 --> 01:03:01.519
<v Speaker 2>was like, oh no, this is really boring.

1205
01:03:01.639 --> 01:03:02.440
<v Speaker 1>It's so boring.

1206
01:03:02.559 --> 01:03:05.159
<v Speaker 2>So I told myself so boring. I could not shave,

1207
01:03:05.480 --> 01:03:08.599
<v Speaker 2>brush my teeth, to take a shower, or wash my

1208
01:03:08.679 --> 01:03:11.800
<v Speaker 2>hair until I finished it. And then on the second day,

1209
01:03:11.880 --> 01:03:14.400
<v Speaker 2>I helped the neighbor clean out her chicken coop, and

1210
01:03:14.480 --> 01:03:16.880
<v Speaker 2>so you know, I had those little mites all over me,

1211
01:03:17.639 --> 01:03:20.000
<v Speaker 2>and but I couldn't take a shower, I couldn't do anything.

1212
01:03:20.000 --> 01:03:21.800
<v Speaker 2>I had to read Moby Dick first.

1213
01:03:23.119 --> 01:03:26.159
<v Speaker 1>There's a audiobook version of Moby Dick read by Burt Reynolds.

1214
01:03:27.360 --> 01:03:28.840
<v Speaker 1>It seems like he was done. He had to do

1215
01:03:28.840 --> 01:03:32.519
<v Speaker 1>it at gun points or something and really read. It's atrocious.

1216
01:03:32.920 --> 01:03:36.480
<v Speaker 1>It's I highly recommend go find it. He does a

1217
01:03:36.519 --> 01:03:40.079
<v Speaker 1>sailor's accents, but he can't maintain us. So it like

1218
01:03:40.199 --> 01:03:42.639
<v Speaker 1>you hit plan this thing, and it's Burt Reynolds being like,

1219
01:03:42.719 --> 01:03:44.760
<v Speaker 1>call me a shmeel. But but by the end of

1220
01:03:44.800 --> 01:03:48.119
<v Speaker 1>every chapter he's kind of back into classic Burt Reynolds.

1221
01:03:48.119 --> 01:03:50.320
<v Speaker 1>And then the next chapter begins and it's back with

1222
01:03:50.639 --> 01:03:53.199
<v Speaker 1>the whale was out there you know he does a voice.

1223
01:03:53.559 --> 01:03:56.320
<v Speaker 1>It's crazy. It's crazy, and he doesn't do any of

1224
01:03:56.320 --> 01:03:59.119
<v Speaker 1>the whaling chapters, so you can just it's it's a breeze.

1225
01:03:59.400 --> 01:04:01.920
<v Speaker 1>He's right, that's good that we've got a lot of

1226
01:04:01.920 --> 01:04:04.440
<v Speaker 1>good ideas out of this session. Really happy about that

1227
01:04:04.559 --> 01:04:08.199
<v Speaker 1>last thing. Do you hold grudges? Yeah? I do, Yeah,

1228
01:04:08.239 --> 01:04:08.440
<v Speaker 1>I do.

1229
01:04:08.840 --> 01:04:12.119
<v Speaker 2>I don't necessarily act on them, But my brother said.

1230
01:04:12.679 --> 01:04:14.760
<v Speaker 2>A couple of weeks ago, I saw my brother and

1231
01:04:14.800 --> 01:04:17.760
<v Speaker 2>we were talking about cleaning, and he said, man, you

1232
01:04:17.840 --> 01:04:20.320
<v Speaker 2>gotta be you know, I got to be mad to clean.

1233
01:04:21.039 --> 01:04:24.480
<v Speaker 2>And whenever I start cleaning, I go back to my

1234
01:04:24.559 --> 01:04:27.960
<v Speaker 2>grudge drawer and I pull something out and it just

1235
01:04:28.079 --> 01:04:31.440
<v Speaker 2>fuels me when I clean. It's like feeding the steam

1236
01:04:31.480 --> 01:04:34.559
<v Speaker 2>engine while I clean, and then I finish, and I'm fine.

1237
01:04:34.320 --> 01:04:35.760
<v Speaker 1>What's your oldest grudge right now?

1238
01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:43.559
<v Speaker 2>Missus Arsenow nineteen sixty eight, ice Cream Creations. After a christening,

1239
01:04:43.599 --> 01:04:46.199
<v Speaker 2>we went to ice cream Creations people from the church

1240
01:04:46.400 --> 01:04:49.280
<v Speaker 2>greg Orthodox Church in Raleigh, North Carolina. And I was

1241
01:04:49.280 --> 01:04:52.119
<v Speaker 2>sitting there with my mom having a lovely time, and

1242
01:04:52.159 --> 01:04:54.199
<v Speaker 2>Missus arsanu came and said, you go over there and

1243
01:04:54.280 --> 01:04:57.280
<v Speaker 2>sit with the boys. No, twelve year old boys should

1244
01:04:57.320 --> 01:04:59.400
<v Speaker 2>be sitting with his mother. And I was having such

1245
01:04:59.400 --> 01:05:03.960
<v Speaker 2>a nice time my mother, and and I thought, what

1246
01:05:04.039 --> 01:05:06.280
<v Speaker 2>business is it of yours where I sit?

1247
01:05:06.760 --> 01:05:07.320
<v Speaker 1>Do you know what I mean?

1248
01:05:07.400 --> 01:05:10.280
<v Speaker 2>Like my mother wasn't complaining about having me there, and

1249
01:05:10.320 --> 01:05:12.599
<v Speaker 2>my you know, my mother's dead, and I think she

1250
01:05:12.840 --> 01:05:16.920
<v Speaker 2>robbed me. Missus Arson, you robbed me of like an

1251
01:05:16.920 --> 01:05:19.440
<v Speaker 2>extra half hour with my mother. And no one back

1252
01:05:19.480 --> 01:05:22.519
<v Speaker 2>there said, bitch, are you telling me where to sit?

1253
01:05:22.679 --> 01:05:24.440
<v Speaker 2>Like nobody would have done that.

1254
01:05:24.559 --> 01:05:25.440
<v Speaker 1>You just did what she said.

1255
01:05:25.679 --> 01:05:28.039
<v Speaker 2>I just did what she said. And I think about it.

1256
01:05:28.159 --> 01:05:30.559
<v Speaker 2>I've held a grudge since then. And she's long dead,

1257
01:05:31.280 --> 01:05:35.679
<v Speaker 2>you know, yeah for sure, but I I yeah, that's

1258
01:05:35.719 --> 01:05:36.960
<v Speaker 2>probably my oldest grudge.

1259
01:05:37.679 --> 01:05:40.880
<v Speaker 1>And see, now the kids would talk back, something that

1260
01:05:40.960 --> 01:05:43.320
<v Speaker 1>you find repulsive because the kids aren't listening to their

1261
01:05:43.360 --> 01:05:45.119
<v Speaker 1>parents anymore. But that was a case where had you

1262
01:05:45.119 --> 01:05:46.480
<v Speaker 1>talked back to your teacher, you might have had more

1263
01:05:46.480 --> 01:05:47.079
<v Speaker 1>time with your mother.

1264
01:05:47.719 --> 01:05:50.000
<v Speaker 2>There was a guy in my high school who are

1265
01:05:50.440 --> 01:05:54.400
<v Speaker 2>We had a math teacher and he was he was

1266
01:05:54.440 --> 01:05:59.519
<v Speaker 2>also a coach, and he was a dick, and he

1267
01:05:59.679 --> 01:06:04.280
<v Speaker 2>was chewing out this student, this female student, and she

1268
01:06:04.480 --> 01:06:08.719
<v Speaker 2>started crying and he kept at it, and this guy

1269
01:06:08.719 --> 01:06:11.760
<v Speaker 2>in the class stood up and said you need to

1270
01:06:11.800 --> 01:06:15.320
<v Speaker 2>back off to the teacher. And nobody did things like that,

1271
01:06:15.400 --> 01:06:19.320
<v Speaker 2>and he got in so much trouble, but it was

1272
01:06:19.480 --> 01:06:22.239
<v Speaker 2>somebody needed to do it, you know. And I'm so

1273
01:06:22.920 --> 01:06:25.679
<v Speaker 2>proud because he was gay.

1274
01:06:25.880 --> 01:06:26.480
<v Speaker 1>There's no way.

1275
01:06:26.519 --> 01:06:28.920
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it wasn't talked about back then, but there's

1276
01:06:28.960 --> 01:06:32.000
<v Speaker 2>no way this guy wasn't gay. And I thought about

1277
01:06:32.039 --> 01:06:33.840
<v Speaker 2>it over the years and I thought, wow, it was

1278
01:06:33.880 --> 01:06:36.079
<v Speaker 2>a gay person. I mean, it wasn't this gay person,

1279
01:06:36.119 --> 01:06:38.960
<v Speaker 2>but it was a gay person who and he wasn't

1280
01:06:39.159 --> 01:06:41.199
<v Speaker 2>He didn't threaten the teacher or anything. He did it

1281
01:06:41.239 --> 01:06:45.519
<v Speaker 2>in really the perfect way. And I think about that.

1282
01:06:45.559 --> 01:06:48.639
<v Speaker 2>He's probably forgotten about it, this guy, but gee, it

1283
01:06:48.760 --> 01:06:53.119
<v Speaker 2>was such a it was huge to me.

1284
01:06:53.480 --> 01:06:57.639
<v Speaker 1>I think about it quite often. David Sedaris, thank you

1285
01:06:57.679 --> 01:07:01.840
<v Speaker 1>so much for being here, everybody. Collection of essays David Sidaris,

1286
01:07:01.840 --> 01:07:03.840
<v Speaker 1>the Land and It's people. Thanks for coming by. Good

1287
01:07:03.880 --> 01:07:05.400
<v Speaker 1>to meet you, good to talk to you. Oh you too,

1288
01:07:05.480 --> 01:07:16.039
<v Speaker 1>Thanks so much. Thank you David Sidares for joining us. John,

1289
01:07:16.119 --> 01:07:18.000
<v Speaker 1>Tommy and I will be back in your feeds on

1290
01:07:18.079 --> 01:07:18.840
<v Speaker 1>Tuesday morning.

1291
01:07:19.000 --> 01:07:20.920
<v Speaker 3>And that's a positive.

1292
01:07:20.920 --> 01:07:23.199
<v Speaker 6>America is a crooked media production. Our show is produced

1293
01:07:23.199 --> 01:07:25.960
<v Speaker 6>by Austin Fisher, Saul Ruben, McKenna, Roberts, and Faris Safari

1294
01:07:26.039 --> 01:07:28.480
<v Speaker 6>with re Jerling, Elijah Cone and Adrian Hill. Our team

1295
01:07:28.519 --> 01:07:31.280
<v Speaker 6>includes Matt to Grote, Ben Hefcot, Jordan Canter, Charlotte Landis

1296
01:07:31.360 --> 01:07:33.719
<v Speaker 6>Kirol pel Aviv, David Toles, Mia Kelman, Ryan Young and

1297
01:07:33.800 --> 01:07:36.159
<v Speaker 6>Naomi Single. Our staff is probably unionized with the Writers

1298
01:07:36.159 --> 01:07:37.159
<v Speaker 6>Guild of America East