WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.080 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.160 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.519 written about them. Geesy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every 4 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:25.280 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.559 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 6 00:00:29.559 --> 00:00:40.039 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Good Evening. 7 00:00:41.640 --> 00:00:45.640 Joseph Weldon Brown confessed to more than a dozen murders 8 00:00:45.679 --> 00:00:50.320 across seven states. He was convicted and sentenced for killing 9 00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:53.920 a woman whose body he dismembered and scattered across three 10 00:00:53.960 --> 00:00:59.880 Indiana counties. In prison, he hogtied and strangled his cellmate, 11 00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:03.359 then asked the judge to lock him up for life 12 00:01:03.520 --> 00:01:09.519 because if he was released, he would continue killing. Police 13 00:01:09.519 --> 00:01:12.959 Detective Rick Reid was on the scene when Brown led 14 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:18.200 authorities to the scattered remains of Ginger Gasaway in two thousand. 15 00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:22.840 After Brown's arrest, he confessed to a shocking number of 16 00:01:22.920 --> 00:01:27.519 other heinous crimes, the torture and murders of drifters and 17 00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:31.560 sex workers, the cold case of a naked woman's body 18 00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:35.760 found in a roadside ditch, even the murder of his 19 00:01:35.879 --> 00:01:41.120 own mother. Detective Reed was the one man Brown opened 20 00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:44.519 up to and the only one to cut through the 21 00:01:44.599 --> 00:01:49.719 deceptions and lives and learn the terrible truth. In this 22 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:55.799 newly updated edition, now retire detective Reed reveals his personal 23 00:01:55.920 --> 00:02:00.480 theories and insights into one of the darkest minds ever 24 00:02:00.599 --> 00:02:05.840 encountered and one of the most terrifying crime stories ever told. 25 00:02:07.319 --> 00:02:10.319 The book that we're featuring this evening is Blood Trail, 26 00:02:11.159 --> 00:02:15.000 The Hunt for a Serial Killer with my special guest, 27 00:02:15.159 --> 00:02:21.000 retired detective sergeant and author Rick Read. Welcome back to 28 00:02:21.039 --> 00:02:23.319 the program, and thank you very much for this interview, 29 00:02:23.719 --> 00:02:28.639 Rick Reid, Thank you, Dan, thank you so much, and 30 00:02:28.680 --> 00:02:33.000 congratulations on this new updated version of Blood Trail. 31 00:02:34.759 --> 00:02:37.439 Yeah, that was a little bit of a surprise to 32 00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:41.759 me because the book came out in nineteen I'm sorry, 33 00:02:41.879 --> 00:02:45.919 two thousand and four, so it's almost twenty years old now. 34 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:50.639 Yes. Absolutely. You say that you were a newly appointed 35 00:02:50.719 --> 00:02:54.319 sergeant on the Evansville Police Department, you had spent most 36 00:02:54.400 --> 00:02:58.680 of your working years dealing with violent people, and you 37 00:02:58.759 --> 00:03:01.840 take us to this very first just in the prologue, 38 00:03:02.680 --> 00:03:07.599 just before we introduce Joseph Welden Brown and his history 39 00:03:07.960 --> 00:03:12.439 and Ginger Rose Gasaway. You're, like, I say, a newly 40 00:03:12.439 --> 00:03:16.759 appointed sergeant on the Evansville. Evansville Police Department, and you're 41 00:03:16.800 --> 00:03:21.479 looking through some of these love letters, and what's characteristic 42 00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:25.560 of these love letters that it's it's all talking about 43 00:03:25.599 --> 00:03:31.159 a theme of reconciliation between Joseph Weldon Brown. The letters 44 00:03:31.159 --> 00:03:34.120 were written by Joseph Weldon Brown, the ginger rose gasaway 45 00:03:34.759 --> 00:03:38.400 and it talks about reconciliation. But you say it stops 46 00:03:38.599 --> 00:03:42.719 just short of threats of violence if this love is 47 00:03:42.759 --> 00:03:48.120 not reciprocated, And so you talk about this case became 48 00:03:48.199 --> 00:03:51.520 the job of the Evansville Police Department to find out 49 00:03:51.520 --> 00:03:54.840 who was responsible for one of the most vicious crimes 50 00:03:54.919 --> 00:03:57.840 in the state of Indiana. 51 00:03:58.080 --> 00:04:03.240 Evansville was a very quiet community. I think in two 52 00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:07.879 thousand we may have had ten murders. The entire time. 53 00:04:08.039 --> 00:04:11.120 There was a lot of violence, a lot of shooting, stabbing, 54 00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:15.120 those kind of things where people were injured and nearly died, 55 00:04:16.240 --> 00:04:19.279 but as far as murders, it wasn't really on the 56 00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:22.319 radar that much as it is now now at eleven 57 00:04:22.439 --> 00:04:27.120 is a monthly figure. So this was something very serious 58 00:04:27.959 --> 00:04:31.560 still is Back then when a ginger was attacked and 59 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:35.360 killed and dismembered, that was something that hadn't been on 60 00:04:35.399 --> 00:04:39.920 our radar for at least twenty or thirty years. Evansville, 61 00:04:40.639 --> 00:04:45.639 like I said, was pretty quiet. Everybody there was working, 62 00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:51.920 We had very low unemployment. It was a pretty calm community. 63 00:04:52.000 --> 00:04:56.360 I thought where my job was serious enough that I 64 00:04:56.360 --> 00:04:59.639 always dealt with the violent crimes, and I had enough 65 00:04:59.639 --> 00:05:03.639 of those to deal with. But then actually when this occurred, 66 00:05:04.680 --> 00:05:08.879 I was working in bunco fraud, which is like bad checks, 67 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:13.399 fraud on banks, fraud on other people, charity frauds, those 68 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:18.240 kind of things. And this happened all because I got 69 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:23.360 a notification by Old National Bank that a person that 70 00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:25.720 I was looking for had been in their branch that 71 00:05:25.839 --> 00:05:28.879 morning and was trying to pass a check on Ginger 72 00:05:28.920 --> 00:05:34.279 Gasaway's Citizens Bank account. The guy showed an Indiana driver's 73 00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:38.439 license for Joseph W. Brown, and the teller remembered I'd 74 00:05:38.439 --> 00:05:41.519 put out an alert on those stolen checks and for 75 00:05:41.639 --> 00:05:44.720 Joe Brown. The reason I had the alert, I was 76 00:05:44.759 --> 00:05:47.800 because he'd been passing bad checks all over town at 77 00:05:47.800 --> 00:05:51.759 different banks. He would take a check from one bank, 78 00:05:52.279 --> 00:05:55.279 write it out, go to another bank and deposit it 79 00:05:55.319 --> 00:05:57.800 and open an account with them, and then he could 80 00:05:57.920 --> 00:06:00.399 use that bank account to open an up the bank 81 00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:03.279 account and take out all the money. So he was 82 00:06:03.319 --> 00:06:07.199 going pretty strong, and this was near the holidays, and 83 00:06:07.240 --> 00:06:08.839 I thought, you know, we need to put an end 84 00:06:08.879 --> 00:06:11.279 to this, and I put an alert out but didn't 85 00:06:11.319 --> 00:06:13.519 have any luck, and then all of a sudden, I 86 00:06:13.560 --> 00:06:16.199 get an alert that he had been in the branch. 87 00:06:16.319 --> 00:06:18.920 So that's where it all started, was me trying to 88 00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:23.560 find him to arresting, and trying to find Ginger to 89 00:06:23.639 --> 00:06:27.439 have her make a complaint so I could do an arrest. 90 00:06:27.920 --> 00:06:30.680 The way the arrest works on these things, they have 91 00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:34.360 to almost be immediate where they had passed a bad 92 00:06:34.439 --> 00:06:37.879 check and you went and found him. Otherwise, we were 93 00:06:38.319 --> 00:06:42.040 pretty well advised to get a warrant and arrest him 94 00:06:42.079 --> 00:06:44.720 on a warrant later. Well, I thought we just needed 95 00:06:44.720 --> 00:06:46.560 to get him right now, So I tried to find 96 00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:49.839 Ginger to get her to sign a report, and it 97 00:06:49.879 --> 00:06:54.040 all went from there. I couldn't find her, couldn't find him, and. 98 00:06:54.839 --> 00:06:55.480 It looked like. 99 00:06:56.959 --> 00:06:59.959 They'd either left together or it was a missing person, 100 00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:03.920 or there might have been some violence incurred with it. 101 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:07.160 But I had no idea that she had been murdered 102 00:07:07.240 --> 00:07:11.439 until we found him in Ohio, and he confessed of 103 00:07:11.560 --> 00:07:15.839 murdering and dismembering her. So that went on for three, 104 00:07:15.959 --> 00:07:19.000 four or five days with me just looking for her 105 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:19.439 and him. 106 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:24.480 What did you find in your investigation? At first? She 107 00:07:24.519 --> 00:07:26.680 hadn't shown up for work, and she had worked for 108 00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:30.240 years at this TJ Max fourteen years, so it's quite 109 00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:32.879 unusual for her not to show up at work. And 110 00:07:32.920 --> 00:07:35.959 her daughter also worked at TJ Max, or daughter Lisa. 111 00:07:36.600 --> 00:07:41.160 So tell us how you discovered that or thought maybe 112 00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:44.279 that there was something amiss in that, something like not 113 00:07:44.319 --> 00:07:47.319 showing up for work quite atypical for her. 114 00:07:48.040 --> 00:07:50.839 When I was trying to find her, I had gone 115 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:53.439 to her apartment and knocked on the door and there 116 00:07:53.480 --> 00:07:56.639 was a note on the door for her daughter saying 117 00:07:56.680 --> 00:07:59.800 that she would be back, and her daughter was expecting 118 00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:02.120 to help her pack her things to move to a 119 00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:06.439 new apartment, so that she had missed that date by 120 00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:09.480 a couple of days. Found out where she was moving 121 00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:12.560 to and went there and they said that she had 122 00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:15.199 missed the date to pick up her keys for that apartment, 123 00:08:15.839 --> 00:08:18.839 and that was unusual. I talked to the daughter again 124 00:08:19.959 --> 00:08:23.600 and she said her mom was moving and that she 125 00:08:23.639 --> 00:08:26.279 was supposed to help her, and it was unusual because 126 00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:29.759 she'd been by there and she wasn't home. So I 127 00:08:29.800 --> 00:08:32.679 took another detective and went back to the apartment where 128 00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:36.759 she was living at Village Green and asked the manager 129 00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:39.399 if they would let us in the apartment to look around, 130 00:08:39.559 --> 00:08:43.080 because I thought maybe she has hurt herself, or she's 131 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:48.279 injured somehow or whatever. But I had to finally almost 132 00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:51.559 prod the manager into letting us get in the apartment 133 00:08:51.639 --> 00:08:54.080 because the manager was getting ready to go on vacation 134 00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:55.039 and she. 135 00:08:55.000 --> 00:08:55.799 Didn't want to do it. 136 00:08:56.440 --> 00:08:58.879 But when we got in, it just there were boxes 137 00:08:58.960 --> 00:09:03.039 packed all over the place. There were bills set out 138 00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:06.440 on a table with a calculator and a pin, and 139 00:09:06.679 --> 00:09:10.559 even on the stove there was a skillet with dried 140 00:09:10.879 --> 00:09:14.159 or congealed bacon grease in the bottom, and a pitch 141 00:09:14.399 --> 00:09:18.240 or a little fork thing where somebody had ate recently. 142 00:09:19.279 --> 00:09:22.440 I looked in the bathroom. The shower was dry, the 143 00:09:22.559 --> 00:09:26.120 tub was dry. The only thing missing was a shower curtain, 144 00:09:26.840 --> 00:09:29.840 but she could have used There was a shower curtain, 145 00:09:29.879 --> 00:09:32.879 but the plastic one was not there. I didn't even 146 00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:36.240 know if she had a plastic one, so that wasn't 147 00:09:36.240 --> 00:09:39.559 a real tip off. There was no sign of any 148 00:09:39.639 --> 00:09:42.399 injury or a struggle or a fight taking place in 149 00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:46.399 that apartment, which later we found out that that's where 150 00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:48.840 he had actually killed her and cut her into pieces. 151 00:09:49.559 --> 00:09:51.960 So you would think there he would have left some 152 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:55.320 kind of sign in there, but we didn't see anything, 153 00:09:55.639 --> 00:09:56.639 and found out. 154 00:09:56.480 --> 00:09:58.360 That he had cleaned it all with bleach. 155 00:09:59.440 --> 00:10:02.200 He scrubbed everything down but a wall by the bed, 156 00:10:03.039 --> 00:10:06.039 and when we got in there later after he confessed 157 00:10:06.039 --> 00:10:08.720 to the murder. We got in there later and we 158 00:10:08.840 --> 00:10:13.679 found with the blue light we found bloodstains up a 159 00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:16.200 wall where it looked like it had been spattered all 160 00:10:16.279 --> 00:10:19.720 up a wall and on the mattress. It kind of 161 00:10:19.759 --> 00:10:23.120 looked like a slaughterhouse in there with the lights, and 162 00:10:23.159 --> 00:10:27.039 that I should have had it done immediately, but like 163 00:10:27.080 --> 00:10:30.080 I said, I had no idea that she'd been heard. 164 00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:33.279 I just thought we had a missing person. Part of 165 00:10:33.320 --> 00:10:36.639 the reason for that was they were both addicted gamblers. 166 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:40.519 They had had themselves evicted from the casino there in 167 00:10:40.559 --> 00:10:45.080 Evansville so that they couldn't come back, but they had 168 00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:47.440 spent a ton of money. That was one of the 169 00:10:47.480 --> 00:10:51.000 reasons that Ginger had gotten a divorce from her husband, 170 00:10:51.720 --> 00:10:55.440 and she had lived with Joe for a while because 171 00:10:55.480 --> 00:10:58.360 they were both gamblers and every dime that she made 172 00:10:58.639 --> 00:10:59.799 went into gambling. 173 00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:00.679 Didn't work. 174 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:05.080 But the daughter told me she was working at TJ 175 00:11:05.200 --> 00:11:07.840 Max and I called them and they said she hadn't 176 00:11:07.879 --> 00:11:11.399 been there for at least two days, that she hadn't 177 00:11:11.399 --> 00:11:14.960 shown up for work on her schedule days, and they 178 00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:17.159 were kind of worried about her, but they said she'd 179 00:11:17.159 --> 00:11:20.320 never missed work before. I found out from them that 180 00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:23.919 she had also worked at the airport, in a little 181 00:11:23.919 --> 00:11:28.440 restaurant there in the airport in Evansville. And I talked 182 00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:30.279 to them and they said she hadn't been to work 183 00:11:30.320 --> 00:11:33.519 for three or four days, and that wasn't like her either, 184 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:36.320 because she needed the money, so she was always working, 185 00:11:37.320 --> 00:11:40.159 and come to find out, she was really supporting Joe 186 00:11:40.159 --> 00:11:44.320 Brown with all the money she was making working extra jobs. 187 00:11:45.159 --> 00:11:47.600 And the daughter really gave us a lot of information. 188 00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:51.399 But the daughter had told me Melissa told me that 189 00:11:51.559 --> 00:11:55.120 it was possible that she and Joe had left together 190 00:11:55.360 --> 00:11:59.000 and gone off gambling somewhere because that's what they'd done 191 00:11:59.039 --> 00:12:03.240 in the past, right, And that kind of it made 192 00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:05.559 me back off a little bit about her being hurt 193 00:12:05.759 --> 00:12:08.919 or anything like that. But I was still looking for 194 00:12:08.960 --> 00:12:13.559 her pretty seriously and had contacted the apartments and everybody 195 00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:16.639 I could think of. If it work all of those, 196 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:19.080 if she shows up or calls or anything, you call me, 197 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:23.600 here's my home phone. Didn't hear from anybody. The daughter 198 00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:26.559 told me when we were looking in the apartment, I've 199 00:12:26.679 --> 00:12:30.000 called her. She said that her mom had a green 200 00:12:30.120 --> 00:12:34.799 Ford Taurus and a red Mustang. Well, the green Turus 201 00:12:34.879 --> 00:12:37.240 was the one the mom drove, and the red Mustang 202 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:43.360 she had bought for Joe Brown to drive. And the 203 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:48.039 Mustang wasn't there. The green Turus wasn't there, and there 204 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:50.200 was no way we could prove anything. So I put 205 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:54.279 a bl out on the cars and on Ginger and 206 00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:58.559 on Joe, and later that day I think this was 207 00:12:59.480 --> 00:13:05.320 oh maybe let's see that. The second I got to call, 208 00:13:05.600 --> 00:13:09.279 the second of September in two thousand, I got a call. 209 00:13:09.759 --> 00:13:12.600 Officer had found the cars on the parking lot of 210 00:13:12.600 --> 00:13:17.320 a grocery store, maybe a thousand yards from her apartment. 211 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:23.159 The keys were still in the ignition. He looked inside. 212 00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:26.639 He didn't see anything in their blood or anything obvious 213 00:13:26.679 --> 00:13:27.519 where there'd been a fight. 214 00:13:27.639 --> 00:13:30.360 The car. But it's very unusual for a. 215 00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:32.080 Car to be left with the keys in it near 216 00:13:32.120 --> 00:13:35.840 there because there were a lot of apartment complexes and 217 00:13:35.879 --> 00:13:38.840 there were a lot of thefts in that area, carjackings 218 00:13:38.879 --> 00:13:42.240 and car thefts, et cetera. So we didn't know how 219 00:13:42.279 --> 00:13:45.600 long the car had been setting there and sitting there 220 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:47.360 with the keys in it. It should have been stolen, 221 00:13:47.440 --> 00:13:51.279 but it wasn't. So we looked in the trunk and 222 00:13:51.519 --> 00:13:53.960 there was a piece of carpet in the trunk. Blow 223 00:13:53.960 --> 00:13:57.000 and behold right, And it was the same color as 224 00:13:57.039 --> 00:14:00.799 her carpet, and almost the same type of carpet, but 225 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:03.399 it was just a square of carpet. There wasn't anything 226 00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:05.240 on it. It didn't look like it had been cut 227 00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:09.840 out of anything. And so I tried to check the 228 00:14:09.879 --> 00:14:13.480 apartment again, but we didn't really get any luck. And 229 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:17.519 I had put a bol out on her and him, 230 00:14:17.559 --> 00:14:21.120 and I'm looking through their records again and I found 231 00:14:21.159 --> 00:14:25.559 out Joe had beat her up, like in nineteen ninety 232 00:14:25.639 --> 00:14:27.799 something when they had gotten together. 233 00:14:27.879 --> 00:14:28.919 He beat her up once. 234 00:14:29.159 --> 00:14:32.039 There was a battery report on it, but she didn't 235 00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:36.679 pursue it. And there was a theft report on something 236 00:14:36.919 --> 00:14:41.159 and a stalking report, So there were a few things 237 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:44.080 on him that looked like he was a serious criminal 238 00:14:44.840 --> 00:14:48.279 that was messed up with her and he wasn't about to. 239 00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:48.840 Let her go. 240 00:14:49.759 --> 00:14:52.200 I didn't know any of that until I got really 241 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:55.399 deep into the case. And like I said, I was 242 00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:58.320 working bunko fraud. I'm looking at the checks end of it, 243 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:02.679 mostly where I'd worked quite a few murders at that point, 244 00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:07.840 but nothing like this where somebody had been missing. But 245 00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:10.200 I found out that he had beat her up at 246 00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:14.600 the apartments that she lived in, and the manager there 247 00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:17.399 was going to kick her out if Ginger didn't go 248 00:15:17.480 --> 00:15:20.000 down and clean up the laundry room where there was 249 00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:20.559 blood on. 250 00:15:20.519 --> 00:15:24.559 The floor, which I thought was very callous of them 251 00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:24.879 to do. 252 00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:28.159 And that was why Ginger was looking for a new apartment, 253 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:31.799 because Joe had beat her up in there and he 254 00:15:31.879 --> 00:15:35.399 thought he left her for dead. After he beat her up, 255 00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:38.720 he had fled to one of his family's house and 256 00:15:38.840 --> 00:15:42.200 said that him and Ginger had a big fight and 257 00:15:42.279 --> 00:15:45.440 he didn't think she was okay or he was worried 258 00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:52.120 about her, and nobody reported that to us, so the 259 00:15:52.120 --> 00:15:55.240 only thing we had was that report later from a 260 00:15:55.480 --> 00:15:59.360 battery at the apartments and there wasn't much too. It 261 00:15:59.480 --> 00:16:03.120 was a mist in her battery, no real details in it, 262 00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:07.840 and it was pretty sketchy, and it was still keeping 263 00:16:07.879 --> 00:16:10.679 fingers crossed it. Maybe they had had a fight again 264 00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:14.120 and maybe he beat her up, maybe he stole her checks, 265 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:19.320 and that they she was still okay somewhere, maybe beat 266 00:16:19.399 --> 00:16:21.759 up in a shelter or whatever. So I started checking 267 00:16:21.840 --> 00:16:25.960 shelters and I didn't find her. And then I had 268 00:16:25.960 --> 00:16:30.120 a family reunion coming up on September second that I 269 00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:32.480 had set up for like six months to a year, 270 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:37.200 and I just had gotten to the family reunion because 271 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:39.320 I was off duty for about two days of this 272 00:16:39.679 --> 00:16:43.200 and working it all my time off, and I just 273 00:16:43.279 --> 00:16:46.120 got to the family reunion, I got a call that 274 00:16:46.279 --> 00:16:48.720 told me the Taurus was found on the parking lot 275 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:51.919 there at Great Scott. So I went out and looked 276 00:16:51.919 --> 00:16:54.360 at the car, and then I started putting out bols 277 00:16:54.480 --> 00:16:58.720 and I didn't get anything back on that, and then 278 00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:02.600 I had a chance to do a news conference, so 279 00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:05.240 I put out a conference and put the car in there, 280 00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:11.240 both cars, well, the one car, the Mustang and Ginger 281 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:13.720 and Joe, and that I was looking for her. She 282 00:17:13.839 --> 00:17:17.119 was a missing person and might be an endangered person. 283 00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:19.640 And that was about all I could put out because 284 00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:22.720 I didn't really have anything else to prove it. At 285 00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:26.359 that point, I thought it was going to be done. 286 00:17:26.599 --> 00:17:29.839 I went home and tried to get some sleep. Everything 287 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:33.440 was done, and I got a call again like six 288 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:37.880 o'clock that morning by Ohio State Police. They'd found Joe. 289 00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:41.480 They found the red Mustang and a truck stop in 290 00:17:41.640 --> 00:17:47.119 e Lebanon, Ohio, and he was very agitated and almost 291 00:17:47.240 --> 00:17:52.039 fought the take trooper there and they had taken him 292 00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:55.440 in on I put out with the bol I put 293 00:17:55.440 --> 00:18:00.200 out an arrest warrant and get this failure to here 294 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:03.759 for anger management. That was the only thing I could 295 00:18:03.799 --> 00:18:07.480 find on him, which I thought was kind of iran. 296 00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:10.880 But I had put that out with the warrant just 297 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:13.680 hoping that maybe he'd get stopped and they could arrest 298 00:18:13.759 --> 00:18:16.839 him on something, because I knew about all the checks. 299 00:18:16.839 --> 00:18:18.680 But like I said, they didn't want us to make 300 00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:21.640 an arrest on these checks unless we got a warrant. Well, 301 00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:24.880 prosecutor wouldn't give me a warrant on the checks. 302 00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:28.799 Yet, Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to 303 00:18:28.839 --> 00:18:35.039 hear these messages. Now you talked about that you only 304 00:18:35.079 --> 00:18:40.160 had this misdemeanor warrant in which potentially be able to 305 00:18:40.279 --> 00:18:44.319 arrest him. So let's fast forward to his arrest, as 306 00:18:44.359 --> 00:18:47.960 you say, but then the request to speak to you, 307 00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:51.359 and how this confession came to be. 308 00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:56.279 Ohio State Police had arrested him and took him to Elebanon, Ohio, 309 00:18:56.839 --> 00:19:00.640 to the jail there in Warren County, and we got 310 00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:04.640 the call and me and another detective drove to Elevenon. 311 00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:07.880 It was about a five hour drive from Evansville. They 312 00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:12.359 got Joe back in a classroom with like stadium seating 313 00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:16.640 for the state police, and he was I'm sorry. It 314 00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:20.880 was the jail's classroom and he was sitting at a 315 00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:23.839 table by himself, and the two street troopers I talked 316 00:19:23.839 --> 00:19:27.240 to said he won't talk to you. He's pissed off, 317 00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:29.640 he's cussed everybody. He got a fight in the jail. 318 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:33.559 He said he won't talk to anybody. They had him handcuffed, 319 00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:37.160 sitting at a table for me, and I looked and 320 00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:39.720 they had a video of him being read his rights 321 00:19:39.759 --> 00:19:43.240 and he refused to sign anything. He said, I know 322 00:19:43.319 --> 00:19:46.759 my rights, and that was about it. So we walked 323 00:19:46.759 --> 00:19:48.799 in the door and I took the state troopers in 324 00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:53.920 with me and another detective. And protocol, says one detective 325 00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:58.640 one interview, you don't have several people disturbing or distracting. 326 00:19:59.079 --> 00:20:02.200 But I wanted this troopers in there because he hated them. 327 00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:06.559 So they set up in the stadium seats where he 328 00:20:06.599 --> 00:20:09.480 could look over and see them. But they weren't disturbing, 329 00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:12.720 but he was really angry that they were in there. 330 00:20:13.720 --> 00:20:16.400 And he looked at me and he goes, you might 331 00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:18.759 as well get the f out of here. I'm not 332 00:20:18.839 --> 00:20:20.480 talking to you, I'm not talking. 333 00:20:20.200 --> 00:20:21.880 To them, blah blah blah. 334 00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:26.480 And I had taken a class from this guy with 335 00:20:26.599 --> 00:20:29.079 State Department, and I just kind of leaned over and 336 00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:33.400 held my arms out like wow. And I've said, Jesus Christ, Joe, 337 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:37.160 my ex wife doesn't talk to me like that. And 338 00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:40.720 I could see him starting to smirk. So I had 339 00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:44.160 opened the door to an interview with that, and I 340 00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:46.119 told him, you don't have to say a word. I 341 00:20:46.200 --> 00:20:47.799 just want to sit down and talk to you. I'm 342 00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:51.799 from Evansville. I'm looking for Ginger. I'm afraid something has 343 00:20:51.880 --> 00:20:55.079 happened to her and I have to find her, and 344 00:20:55.160 --> 00:20:57.119 so he let me sit down and he said, I'm 345 00:20:57.160 --> 00:21:00.519 not talking to you, but you can tell me. After 346 00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:05.200 about maybe two and a half three hours, he looked 347 00:21:05.240 --> 00:21:07.680 at me and he goes, you don't want to find her, 348 00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:10.559 and I said, what did you say? And he said, 349 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:13.599 you don't want to find her. Believe me, Rick, you 350 00:21:13.640 --> 00:21:16.240 don't want to be the one to find her because 351 00:21:16.279 --> 00:21:18.799 I had come off during the whole interview as the 352 00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:22.480 week Nelly. And he actually protected me a couple of 353 00:21:22.519 --> 00:21:26.119 times during the interview with my other detective who was 354 00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:30.400 getting on my case like good cop, bad cop, right, 355 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:34.400 and he would get on that other detective and go, no, 356 00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:38.519 he's doing a good job. And I've told Joe I said, 357 00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:41.200 I don't know why they sent me. I'm a horrible detective. 358 00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:43.480 I shouldn't be doing this. Something's going to happen to 359 00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:46.079 Ginger and I won't be able to find out and 360 00:21:46.119 --> 00:21:49.119 that just makes me sick. I need to quit, and 361 00:21:49.400 --> 00:21:53.279 he go that's when he said, you'll never find her. 362 00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:56.880 And so we went from there and he finally confessed 363 00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:01.920 that he had killed her and did all curious. I go, 364 00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:04.319 what do you mean you killed her? What did you do? 365 00:22:05.279 --> 00:22:08.279 And he said I killed her, and I said, no, 366 00:22:08.440 --> 00:22:10.119 you didn't, and he goes, yes, I did. 367 00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:12.319 Rick. I said, well, what did you do? 368 00:22:12.359 --> 00:22:14.599 And he said, well, I cut her into I strangled her, 369 00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:18.359 and I cut her into pieces and spread body parts everywhere. 370 00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:20.519 So that kind of shocked me. 371 00:22:20.559 --> 00:22:22.839 And we went from there and he confessed to how 372 00:22:22.839 --> 00:22:25.640 he did the murder and where, so we knew we 373 00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:28.880 had a murder involved. We didn't have a body, we 374 00:22:28.920 --> 00:22:32.599 didn't really have a crime scene, and all we had 375 00:22:32.759 --> 00:22:36.839 was him in the car and his record. But I 376 00:22:36.920 --> 00:22:41.599 contacted our prosecutor back in Indiana and he went ahead 377 00:22:41.599 --> 00:22:44.440 and issued a warrant for the bad checks for me, 378 00:22:44.519 --> 00:22:47.839 so i'd have some reason to arrest him. The Ohio 379 00:22:47.960 --> 00:22:53.599 State Police luckily charged him with fleeing prosecution, leaning the 380 00:22:53.640 --> 00:22:57.079 state to avoid prosecution. And that was better than our 381 00:22:57.119 --> 00:23:00.920 misdemeanor charge because with a misdemeanor charge could pick him up, 382 00:23:01.720 --> 00:23:04.279 but they couldn't hold him unless we told them to 383 00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:08.079 a misdemeanor, it's really hard for them to make an 384 00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:12.039 arrest and make it stand unless the agency issuing the 385 00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:15.680 warrant or the charge will stand behind it and ask 386 00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:19.720 for extradition. So with a felony warrant. Now you have 387 00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:23.200 a lot better grounds to stand on. So we got 388 00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:26.759 the felony warrant and I told Joe, I said, well, 389 00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:30.079 we're going to have to do an extradition hearing, and 390 00:23:30.119 --> 00:23:33.519 it has to be in the court here in Warren County. 391 00:23:33.559 --> 00:23:36.359 And then if you will, I want you to come 392 00:23:36.359 --> 00:23:38.920 back to Evansville with me and show you where, show 393 00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:41.960 me where you put these body parts. And he goes, 394 00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:45.359 I'll show you, but I won't. I won't go tomorrow. 395 00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:48.119 I'll go right now. He said, you got to take 396 00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:49.799 me out of here now. He said, I can't stand 397 00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:54.799 this place. So I called my prosecutor back. They called 398 00:23:55.119 --> 00:23:59.880 Warren Counties prosecutor and they agreed that if he agreed 399 00:23:59.880 --> 00:24:02.200 to go, he could sign a paper and I could 400 00:24:02.200 --> 00:24:05.119 sign it like I was checking him out to take 401 00:24:05.240 --> 00:24:08.279