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Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK Every
Speaker 6: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 6: infamous killers in true crime history True Murder with your host,
Speaker 6: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 9: Good evening. On Christmas Eve two thousand and seven, Judy
Speaker 9: and Wayne Anderson's daughter Michelle, and her boyfriend Joseph McEnroe
Speaker 9: arrived at their home for a family meal. Unbeknown to them,
Speaker 9: their daughter was armed with a loaded nine millimeter pistol
Speaker 9: and macenroe was carrying a three fifty seven magnum. Both
Speaker 9: parents were callously shot dead by the pair and their
Speaker 9: bodies hidden from view. Two and a half hours later,
Speaker 9: Michelle's brother Scott, his wife Erica, and their two children,
Speaker 9: Olivia five and Nathan three, arrived at the house. Within
Speaker 9: the hour, they too had been pitilessly slain in an
Speaker 9: act of violence that was breathtaking in its scope and cruelty.
Speaker 9: With his highly anticipated third book, Paul Sanders takes the
Speaker 9: reader inside every day of the trial of Michelle Anderson
Speaker 9: with his customary attention to detail from December two thousand
Speaker 9: fifteenth until March two thousand and sixteen, and in a
Speaker 9: unique digression from his other works, Sanders includes something he
Speaker 9: has never done before an interview with one of the killers,
Speaker 9: Joseph Macenroe at Walla Walla Penitentiary. Banquet of Consequences is
Speaker 9: the first of two books of what came to be
Speaker 9: known as the Our Nation Murders. Were the killings of
Speaker 9: premeditated act or had the defendants acted in self defense?
Speaker 9: And what of the deaths of Olivia Nathan who shot them?
Speaker 9: And why it would not be an easy task for
Speaker 9: a jury to decide? The reader has taken into a
Speaker 9: world few of us who have ever received a jury
Speaker 9: summons will ever experience. The book that we're featuring this
Speaker 9: evening is Banquet of Consequences, A juror's plight, the Carnation
Speaker 9: murders trial of Michelle Anderson, with my special guest journalist
Speaker 9: and author Paul Sanders. Welcome to the program, and thank
Speaker 9: you very much for a Green News interview. Paul Sanders.
Speaker 7: It's an honor to be here. Dan, thank you, thank.
Speaker 9: You very much. Fascinating perspective. Once again, thank you for
Speaker 9: taking us somewhere where we normally don't go with this,
Speaker 9: and this is right in the juror's box with people
Speaker 9: making decisions on life and death and the consequences that
Speaker 9: you talk about in Banquet of Consequences, we'll be talking
Speaker 9: about now. Let me ask we talked to we looted
Speaker 9: about these These is not the first book of the
Speaker 9: about the Carnation murder. So tell us a little bit
Speaker 9: about your background and how you came to be involved
Speaker 9: with this, and maybe you could tell us about who
Speaker 9: you were there on behalf of at the trial. Tell
Speaker 9: us a little bit about who you are associated with
Speaker 9: and how you came to be in a position to
Speaker 9: want to and be able to write Banquet of Consequences.
Speaker 7: So, good question, Dan, Thank you. My story began in
Speaker 7: twenty fourteen. I, like many jurors around the country, was
Speaker 7: called pregury service, and in this case it was a
Speaker 7: high profile murder trial. Girl's name was Marissa DeVault. She
Speaker 7: put a hammer in her husband's head five times. Twelve
Speaker 7: hundred jurors were summoned. In the end, sixteen were chosen,
Speaker 7: and then there was a final twelve. I was one
Speaker 7: of the final twelve. The trial was six months in length,
Speaker 7: three phases, and in the end we ended up giving
Speaker 7: the killer life or recommending life in prison without parole. Coincidentally,
Speaker 7: in that trial, a prosecutor used to show up. I
Speaker 7: think somebody who's been on your show, as a matter
Speaker 7: of fact, Juan Martinez, and especially when psychiatrists were on
Speaker 7: the stand, and we recognize him as a high profile
Speaker 7: prosecuting attorney, and we all wondered, why is he here?
Speaker 7: What does he have to do with this case? It's
Speaker 7: not our prosecutors a Eric bat Well. The answer was
Speaker 7: found out soon. Juan Martinez was actually scheduled to do
Speaker 7: our case, but another very similar killer, Jody Arius, her
Speaker 7: trial five months before hours the jury hung on her
Speaker 7: trial in the penalty phase, the death penalty phase. So
Speaker 7: just a few months after my trial completed, I was
Speaker 7: working on Brain Damage of Jurors Tale, my first book,
Speaker 7: the story of what it is like to be a
Speaker 7: death penalty juror, and I thought, on a whim I
Speaker 7: hit I heard on TV there was going to be
Speaker 7: this short penalty phase retrial. This thing was scheduled to
Speaker 7: be maybe six weeks in length, and I by, you
Speaker 7: know what, it might be interesting to go down there,
Speaker 7: maybe do a little blog or journal it, and maybe
Speaker 7: post it online. I did that and their response was unbelievable.
Speaker 7: It took time, but that trial also ended up six
Speaker 7: months so I wrote my second book, Why Not Killer
Speaker 7: Juris did the death penalty trial of Good to the Areas,
Speaker 7: And when that book was complete, I found myself, as
Speaker 7: many authors do when they're first starting out, I found
Speaker 7: myself broke. So I put a message out on Facebook.
Speaker 7: I've gotten a lot of followers. I'm honored to have
Speaker 7: every single one of them. And I put a message
Speaker 7: on Facebook and I said, hey, I'm looking to move,
Speaker 7: but it doesn't have to be in Phoenix, Arizona any ideas.
Speaker 7: And the suggestions came back worldwide, mostly around the country,
Speaker 7: but people said've moved to Canada, I've moved to Australia,
Speaker 7: moved to Great Britain, moved to New York, moved to Boston.
Speaker 7: And I had a list of things that were important
Speaker 7: to me, and one of them was I need to
Speaker 7: have an income aside from my book income, which was
Speaker 7: still growing. I need to have a roof over my head.
Speaker 7: And gosh darn it, the state needs to have a
Speaker 7: death penalty because if I do a trial again, I
Speaker 7: really only do death penalty trials. Old friend of mine
Speaker 7: road and said, when you come up here, I got
Speaker 7: a job and a roof over your head. And you
Speaker 7: can do what you want. And I asked him, does
Speaker 7: Washington have the death penalty? He said yes, and I
Speaker 7: moved to Washington. It was suggested by a girl by
Speaker 7: the name of Jennifer Wood. She had brought up before
Speaker 7: I moved up here. She said, you know, there's a
Speaker 7: really interesting trial that just occurred on Joseph McEnroe, but
Speaker 7: there's still to be a trial on Michelle Anderson and
Speaker 7: the Carnation murders. And that's how it started. I typically
Speaker 7: don't research before I sit in a trial every day,
Speaker 7: and the reason being is I want to the impact
Speaker 7: of the case presented the same as what might as
Speaker 7: what it might be to a djur. Jurors who are
Speaker 7: selected are selected partly because they know nothing about the
Speaker 7: trial they're about to be seated on, and I like
Speaker 7: being in that position. It's there's the dark side of trials,
Speaker 7: which is the victim and what happened to him, her
Speaker 7: or them, and then there's the other side that I
Speaker 7: really enjoy, and that is what a juror must feel
Speaker 7: when they sit in a seat in a very formal circumstance,
Speaker 7: in a high profile circumstance, and what do they feel
Speaker 7: is the information is said to them on a day
Speaker 7: to day basis. And because I have had that unique
Speaker 7: opportunity to in that seat, when I sit in the gallery,
Speaker 7: it is very easy for me to understand what they
Speaker 7: are going through and of course my interpretation when I
Speaker 7: write it. The support I've had for this trial has
Speaker 7: been amazing. I've been honored to meet Pamela Mantle, who
Speaker 7: was the mother to Erica. Her son in law was Scott,
Speaker 7: and her two grandchildren were Olivia and Nathan. I was
Speaker 7: honored to meet four jurors from both the McEnroe trial
Speaker 7: and the Michelle and Anderson trial. I built a connection
Speaker 7: with the prosecutor. I am just unbelievably grateful for that.
Speaker 7: And then and I also met I had become friends
Speaker 7: with Ben Anderson, who was the grandson to Judy, the
Speaker 7: son of Mary Victoria. And she was the daughter that's
Speaker 7: called off the native Christmas Eve not to join the family.
Speaker 7: She'd been there ten years in a row, but that
Speaker 7: Christmas Eve she called juty let the message on the
Speaker 7: machine and said she would not be attending because her
Speaker 7: son had a cult. So she and her son did
Speaker 7: not Christmas Eve. And from there you know the rest
Speaker 7: of the story would happen.
Speaker 9: For those people and will take us very much like
Speaker 9: like you say, the jurors are supposed to be impartial,
Speaker 9: so they can't have research these kinds of cases. But
Speaker 9: there are the certain particulars that you knew at the time.
Speaker 9: You say, this didn't automatically interest you, and you were
Speaker 9: invited in, so it just fell into your lap. But
Speaker 9: tell us about the particulars of the crime as you
Speaker 9: knew it, and the public knew it, and probably the
Speaker 9: jurors knew it. What are those basic particulars that we
Speaker 9: spoke to in the introduction of what happened on Christmas
Speaker 9: Eve two thousand and seven at the Anderson home. Just
Speaker 9: what the public would have known and you would have
Speaker 9: known at that time.
Speaker 7: There was high profile in the Northwest, so they're pretty
Speaker 7: difficult to find a person in Washington who did not
Speaker 7: know at least something of the murders. But it was
Speaker 7: Christmas Eve on a damp, very damp, over cast day,
Speaker 7: and Michelle Anderson and her boyfriend of two years, Joseph McEnroe,
Speaker 7: arrived at her parents' residence, which was only a quarter
Speaker 7: of a mile up the driveway. Because Michelle and Joe
Speaker 7: lived in a trailer just down the driveway, which was
Speaker 7: owned by Michelle's father Wayne for a year let them
Speaker 7: live their rent free. Very near to Christmas Eve, Wayne
Speaker 7: had said, Michelle and Joe, you need to start paying rent,
Speaker 7: maybe a snipe in five hundred dollars four five hundred
Speaker 7: dollars a month, and it would be a good idea
Speaker 7: to get a job, which neither one had. Michelle took
Speaker 7: offense to that, and at two o'clock on Christmas Eve,
Speaker 7: they walked up. In Michelle's waistband, she had a nine
Speaker 7: millimeter Joseph in the back in his back under the
Speaker 7: belt with his shirt over it. He had a three
Speaker 7: fifty seven magnum and he also carried an empty box
Speaker 7: with him. It would come to be known as a
Speaker 7: decoy box. Judy opened the door, one could smell the
Speaker 7: Christmas the roast in the oven, the Christmas spice in
Speaker 7: the air. As she opened the door, he greeted her
Speaker 7: son and her daughter and potential son in law. She
Speaker 7: hugged them. Wayne called over from his easy chair he
Speaker 7: was watching the game on TV, called over with Merry Christmas,
Speaker 7: and within about forty five minutes, while Joseph was wrapping
Speaker 7: presents with Judy in another room. Michelle pulled out her
Speaker 7: nine millimeter gun and fired directly at her father Wayne.
Speaker 7: She missed. Joe came running out with Judy. Joe then
Speaker 7: fired his three fifty seven, contacting the bullet contacting Wayne
Speaker 7: in the head, and Wayne died immediately. He dropped. Then
Speaker 7: Michelle and Joe cornered Judy, Michelle's mother in the kitchen.
Speaker 7: While Michelle was screaming shooter, shooter, and Joe shot twice.
Speaker 7: The first bullet grazed her, the second one when she
Speaker 7: was in a croups position looking up, she faced the
Speaker 7: bullet of the three fifty seven magnum. The last words
Speaker 7: she heard were from Joe and he said, I'm sorry, Mom,
Speaker 7: and shot her. They then moved the bodies. They dragged
Speaker 7: them out to the shed outside. It was another three
Speaker 7: hours before her husband, Scott Olivia Nathan came over. Michelle
Speaker 7: and Joe waited in the living room. When the door
Speaker 7: opened welcoming the rest of the family. One could still
Speaker 7: smell the roast in the oven. Everything looked normal. The
Speaker 7: only thing not normal were Wayne and Judy were missing,
Speaker 7: and at some point Scott inquired about it. About twenty
Speaker 7: or thirty minutes after we were there, and at that
Speaker 7: point in time mayhem broke out. They were about sixteen
Speaker 7: bullets fired. The first to die was Scott. He was
Speaker 7: shot in the face by Michelle fell on the living
Speaker 7: room floor. The attention then turned to Erica, who was
Speaker 7: with her two children, five and three, and in a panic,
Speaker 7: she grabbed for a cordless telephone. She picked it up
Speaker 7: called nine one one. She got through it was an
Speaker 7: eleven second call. The voice connection was about six and
Speaker 7: a half seconds, enough to cry to but never really
Speaker 7: got words out. Then the phone was knocked out of
Speaker 7: her hand by Joseph, and he then proceeded to execute Erica, Nathan,
Speaker 7: and Olivia there in the living room floor. They left.
Speaker 7: When they left, they went down the driveway, passed their
Speaker 7: single wide trailer another three half a mile down the driveway,
Speaker 7: locked the gate premises, at which time two police cars
Speaker 7: showed up at the bottom of the driveway. By law,
Speaker 7: they did not have cause to go to cross the
Speaker 7: gate because of the nine one one call was said
Speaker 7: to have been a possible party call. By the person
Speaker 7: who answered the nine one one call, one could not
Speaker 7: tell exactly what the sounds were, so it's understand though
Speaker 7: she made the mistake, nobody could faint that something like
Speaker 7: this would happen. And about fifty two hours later, after
Speaker 7: the police had left her after duties work, people at
Speaker 7: work were wondering where she was. She had never been
Speaker 7: late in the seventeen years she worked there. And finally
Speaker 7: Linda Teey went directly to Judy's house the day after
Speaker 7: Christmas and entered the premises and then at that point
Speaker 7: saw three bodies, went in the panic ranto the back bedroom,
Speaker 7: called nine one one from the back bedroom, stayed on
Speaker 7: the phone for about an hour, then nine one one
Speaker 7: she was extricated from the building. Six bodies were ultimately discovered,
Speaker 7: and those were the Kannasian murders.
Speaker 9: Now you talk about the discovery of the bodies and
Speaker 9: then the police response. So how do police get on
Speaker 9: the trail of these two immediately? How does that work?
Speaker 7: Tell us about that process question? Dan? Thank you. In
Speaker 7: this case, it was really very easy. The police arrived
Speaker 7: in a lot of police, police helicopters, share of anything.
Speaker 7: King County arrived and twenty thirty vehicles and a crime
Speaker 7: scene are the and while all that was going on,
Speaker 7: which took about three hours for the full compliment of
Speaker 7: all departments to be there. Michelle and Joseph drove up
Speaker 7: in their black as ten pickup, pulled over, and just so,
Speaker 7: just so happened to walk up to Scott Prompkins, who
Speaker 7: would become the lead detective in the case, and said, hey,
Speaker 7: what's going on, pretending of course they were innocent, and
Speaker 7: Scott not knowing anything. All he knew was I have
Speaker 7: a family member here. This is a probable death notification.
Speaker 7: It's a very difficult circumstance, and I'm going to have
Speaker 7: to break the news to Michelle where her family is deceaits.
Speaker 7: And over the next hour and a half, Michelle sat
Speaker 7: in the front seat of the car with Detective Scott Thompkins.
Speaker 7: Another detective, Detective Peters, sat in the backseat and Michelle
Speaker 7: talked and she was questioned for about an hour and
Speaker 7: a half. It was under the premise it was a
Speaker 7: death notification, but what came out because of about a
Speaker 7: half hour of inconsistent, inconsistent stories, both actors figured out
Speaker 7: that it looked like Michelle was hiding something, and suddenly
Speaker 7: Michelle broke down and said, I did it. And then
Speaker 7: for the next forty five minutes, amidst a myriad of
Speaker 7: some untruths and lies, she confessed, and Jose McEnroe did
Speaker 7: the same thing with Detective Tavlovitch in his car just
Speaker 7: one hundred yards. Police to find out who who really
Speaker 7: the suspects were. The difficulty came in the fact that
Speaker 7: since both of them spent much of their confession with
Speaker 7: lies intermingled in them, their job was to figure out
Speaker 7: what really happened.
Speaker 9: You talk about the confession that was gained from Michelle Anderson,
Speaker 9: but in that, of course everyone looks for and I'm
Speaker 9: sure the audience is interested in the reasoning given behind this.
Speaker 9: The Sometimes we talk about abuse or dishumiliation from the
Speaker 9: parents or neglect. Tell us a little bit about the
Speaker 9: background here of the parents and what the excuse was,
Speaker 9: What the reason was that Michelle gave for not only
Speaker 9: the argument that led to the murder, but also also
Speaker 9: talk about the disagreement, longstanding disagreement she had with her
Speaker 9: brother Scott.
Speaker 7: Michelle was an overweight, somewhat out or a somewhat entitled girl, spoiled,
Speaker 7: spoiled by Judy. Judy only wanted the best for her daughter.
Speaker 7: Judy worked for the Post Office for seventeen years. Wayne
Speaker 7: worked for Boeing for over twenty years. They Wayne was retired,
Speaker 7: Judy was Matt and they were your typical Middle America parents.
Speaker 7: They wanted the best for their children, They wanted the
Speaker 7: best for their lit is.
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Speaker 7: Hireman and and they cared about the community around them.
Speaker 7: Judy a year prior to this, had learned that Michelle
Speaker 7: was dating Joseph and they were living in Kent, Washington,
Speaker 7: out in an area near Burian Tequilla area like that
Speaker 7: and probably not the best area of all, and they
Speaker 7: were living in an apartment and Michelle had called Judy
Speaker 7: at some point and said, I'm nervous about living here.
Speaker 7: Somebody tried to break in. We're kind of in a
Speaker 7: bad area. And Judy, being her mothers said you know what,
Speaker 7: why don't you come live up here. I'll even give
Speaker 7: you a job at the post office, and we've got
Speaker 7: a residence for you, and you know what, go ahead
Speaker 7: and bring Joe. And so they came up. They moved
Speaker 7: in a single wide and they lived there rent free.
Speaker 7: Joe worked for a number of targets. Michelle worked part
Speaker 7: time for the post office, pretty much three two three
Speaker 7: days a week, a job given to her by her
Speaker 7: mother about a year and a half or about oh goodness, okay,
Speaker 7: about six months before the murders, Michelle quit her job
Speaker 7: at the post office, saying that being on her and
Speaker 7: they were talking about her behind her back, and Jolle
Speaker 7: even helped with her quitting. He with Michelle went into
Speaker 7: the postmaster's office and eventually they were asked to leave
Speaker 7: because voices were raised and Michelle was adamant she had
Speaker 7: been screwed by somebody. Well, the same resentments were the
Speaker 7: same resentments building with her family. Wayne felt she had
Speaker 7: lived there long enough without working and increased the pressure
Speaker 7: on her to say, hey, you need to get a job,
Speaker 7: be you need to pay rent. You're not just living
Speaker 7: in it. This was supposed to be a transition for you.
Speaker 7: Michelle took offense to that. She also her brother loved
Speaker 7: her very much. And where the dynamic gets really weird
Speaker 7: is the fact that when Scott, her brother, married Erica,
Speaker 7: Tension stayed with Erica. He eventually had two children with Erica.
Speaker 7: It's understandable his attention would be more on Erica than
Speaker 7: on Michelle. But Michelle was living in this world that
Speaker 7: things were not like her childhood. They had changed and
Speaker 7: she was not accepting of it. But she took whatever
Speaker 7: help Scott would give her, like maybe working on her
Speaker 7: eighties camaro Irock. He spent a lot of time replacing
Speaker 7: the engine, give her money for cards. She then paid
Speaker 7: him to fix the car. For whatever reason, the car
Speaker 7: just never got running, and instead of Michelle being grateful
Speaker 7: her brother's help, she got very angry, and she built
Speaker 7: up this number in her head that he owed her
Speaker 7: thirty thousand dollars. So her intense on Christmas eat was
Speaker 7: to get her thirty thousand dollars back, and the way
Speaker 7: she would do that is she would go to her
Speaker 7: father first. And she blamed her father for not coercing
Speaker 7: Scott into giving her money. She blamed Wayne for not
Speaker 7: supporting her cause and loving Scott more than her. So
Speaker 7: when she and Joe walked in on that Christmas Eve,
Speaker 7: the first thing she asked once the pleasantries of Christmas
Speaker 7: were done, the first thing she asked of her father
Speaker 7: is I need you to get my money from Scott.
Speaker 7: And nobody knows exactly what Wayne said, but one can
Speaker 7: imagine that Wayne had been patient for the prior year,
Speaker 7: with her living on his property rent free. One can
Speaker 7: imagine he probably didn't take very well. He could not
Speaker 7: have anticipated she would whip out a gun and fire
Speaker 7: at him. But in her mind everything is about her
Speaker 7: getting screwed over by everybody, and now she was going
Speaker 7: to put her foot down and come hell or high water,
Speaker 7: she was going to get her money. In the end,
Speaker 7: when she searched the pockets of the victims, she pulled
Speaker 7: forty dollars out of Scott's pocket. She somehow missed the
Speaker 7: pocket with three thousand dollars in it, so maybe that's
Speaker 7: a common thing. Who knows, But this whole argument was
Speaker 7: about money and her feelings. She was entitled and a
Speaker 7: deep seated evil jealousy.
Speaker 9: Seems like these aren't the once again the brightest criminals ever.
Speaker 9: And with this, the police take advantage of that and
Speaker 9: get a confession. Tell us sist just briefly about what
Speaker 9: the police want to elicit from her and what they
Speaker 9: do get from her to be able to prosecute Joseph McEnroe.
Speaker 7: What they wanted from Michelle is they wanted her to talk,
Speaker 7: just talk, Because if you've ever met Scott Thompkins or
Speaker 7: somebody like Detective Flores or Mike Bishop from my trial,
Speaker 7: it's not as much like TV where you feel like
Speaker 7: the detectives I laying all this pressure on the suspects.
Speaker 7: In fact, it was quite the opposite. The more Detective
Speaker 7: Scott Thompkins let Michelle talk, the more she would say.
Speaker 7: By having her say whatever she says, truth or lie,
Speaker 7: the evidence at this scene will never change. So what
Speaker 7: they do is they take the words from both of
Speaker 7: the defendants and then ultimately line it up to the
Speaker 7: story that the crime scene tells them. So if they
Speaker 7: tell the truth, then the facts that the scene should
Speaker 7: line up. If they don't tell the truth, that the
Speaker 7: suspicion falls into this. If you're not telling the truth,
Speaker 7: what are you hiding? So it's this balance that goes in.
Speaker 7: Joseph mcenrope that with Michelle, you know, looking at her,
Speaker 7: except for the fact that she's this horrid, murderous but
Speaker 7: you pretty well know what you're going to get when
Speaker 7: you look at her or she talks. She's not a
Speaker 7: smart woman by any means, but you pretty much line
Speaker 7: are not lying. You pretty much can get a good
Speaker 7: idea of what she's about. It doesn't take a rocket
Speaker 7: science to do rocket scientists to do that. Joseph McEnroe,
Speaker 7: on the other hand, Joseph McEnroe, as it came out
Speaker 7: in the trial later, he was able to change his
Speaker 7: personality pecture like a chameleon, blending into a scene. That's
Speaker 7: what he was good, really, really good at doing. If one.
Speaker 7: When he and Michelle contacted their story before they sat
Speaker 7: down with the police, they both kind of lined up
Speaker 7: at first, but once evidence from the scene didn't line
Speaker 7: up to the stories, and then the detective gets to
Speaker 7: pride further for more information to find out why this
Speaker 7: stuff isn't lining up, and what are you hiding and
Speaker 7: what are you concealing? It's this consciousness of guilt. The
Speaker 7: detectives aren't saying this out loud, but they're thinking it.
Speaker 7: But Joseph was tricky because on the surface, Joseph looks
Speaker 7: like this kind of a weird guy, kind of off
Speaker 7: very solitary guy, speaks a little bit strange. You would
Speaker 7: never guess once you talked to him that he could
Speaker 7: be this a murderer of six and when you looked
Speaker 7: at him as he was. In two thousand and seven,
Speaker 7: Hamila Mantle, the mother the Altite, referred to him as Mansiness.
Speaker 7: He had a blackbeard, he only wore a black as
Speaker 7: Michelle only wore black black being long, long, untent, stringy hair,
Speaker 7: didn't pay a lot of attention to his personal appearance,
Speaker 7: didn't like looking people directly in the eye, and some
Speaker 7: people had to interview for the book have said he
Speaker 7: struck them as creepy. But what really makes him frightening
Speaker 7: is when he was put on trial eight years later
Speaker 7: for these six murders. The man responsible for putting a
Speaker 7: bullet in the victim of every victim's head except for
Speaker 7: Scott's in prisons. He rehearsed for eight years how to
Speaker 7: change his aspect, his personality and his countenance. And I
Speaker 7: cannot remember the name of the movie with Richard Gear
Speaker 7: where he's defending this criminal and you think this criminal
Speaker 7: is our pistrict or what have you, and then you
Speaker 7: find out in the end, oh my god, he played me.
Speaker 7: He's not the person who portrayed himself to beat. That
Speaker 7: is Joseph Maca.
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Speaker 9: we were just talking about what was happening with the
Speaker 9: two people involved in this this murder, Michelle Anderson, and
Speaker 9: so talk about the trial of Michelle Anderson, which you
Speaker 9: chronicle day by day basically journal of what happens at
Speaker 9: her trial. Before we talk about the faithful interview you
Speaker 9: have with the other murderer in the Walla Walla penitentiary.
Speaker 9: So tell us a little bit about what lines up
Speaker 9: at this trial for Michelle Anderson. Tell us a little
Speaker 9: bit about some of the particulars and the dynamics that
Speaker 9: are there from the very beginning.
Speaker 7: Very good for Michelle Anderson's trial. Keen hundred jury summons
Speaker 7: went out from day one I was there, and jury
Speaker 7: selection for high profile murder trial typically a jury than
Speaker 7: that actually selected for about a month. So the a's
Speaker 7: the But the days of jury selection are important to me.
Speaker 7: They're important because I want to know. But as in
Speaker 7: this case, how in the world are you going to
Speaker 7: pick somebody to sit down and make decision on a
Speaker 7: person's filt or innocence? And yet in front of you
Speaker 7: are six people who were murdered that you are going
Speaker 7: to intimately know. And when I say intimately, I am
Speaker 7: talking all the way down to the phone fragments that
Speaker 7: are presented by the corner. But fifteen hundred people show
Speaker 7: up at the King County Courthouse, and now the bailiff
Speaker 7: and the court clerk have the job of somehow corralling
Speaker 7: these people and getting them in the right spot and
Speaker 7: so on. And then the attorneys somehow have to take
Speaker 7: fifteen hundred people and whittle it to sixteen. And so
Speaker 7: during that process the processes for the juror is called blade,
Speaker 7: where it begins with them the first day a written
Speaker 7: questionnaire which can be very lengthy. In this case it
Speaker 7: was easily over one hundred very personal questions for each year.
Speaker 7: And the expectation is you are honest when you fill
Speaker 7: out the bladeir if you are asked a question. You
Speaker 7: are not there to hide information, You're not there to
Speaker 7: alter information. You are there to tell the truth and nothing.
Speaker 7: But and during Very's selection, I was ironically, as a
Speaker 7: member of the media, I was given the opportunity to
Speaker 7: actually sit in the jury box during jury selection, which
Speaker 7: was really strange to me, but that's where I was
Speaker 7: directed to sit. And during selection, I sat there and
Speaker 7: took notes and I looked at this sea of hundreds
Speaker 7: of jurors sitting there like a college seminar, like a
Speaker 7: college lecture, and I watched as they filled out each
Speaker 7: of their questions, and I wondered who would be the
Speaker 7: final sixteen. And the next time Jews come back, they
Speaker 7: go through the I call it attorney interrogation, but you
Speaker 7: are randomly asked questions, and again the field, although it's
Speaker 7: been narrowed down, it's still hundreds, and so you sit
Speaker 7: there as a potential juror. Wild questions are thrown out there,
Speaker 7: and that to me is fascinating, not only in the
Speaker 7: information surge, but in their reaction by the potential dirty
Speaker 7: It can make people very, very uncomfortable. And then then
Speaker 7: the final day and then this series of musical players
Speaker 7: within the jury box while while the attorneys are dismissing
Speaker 7: for whatever reason, and they finally get down to sixteenth
Speaker 7: and then the trial begins. And for me, but at
Speaker 7: that point for a jerror, once you're selected. The one
Speaker 7: thing I learned from every one of these jurors, at
Speaker 7: least the ones I interviewed, but it's not uncommon, is
Speaker 7: that every person selected says the same thing. I thought
Speaker 7: there was no way they would select makers, which is
Speaker 7: just interesting for me because I went through that same
Speaker 7: that they said things. So I wondered, how in the
Speaker 7: world is the prosecution and the evidence, how is it
Speaker 7: going to be able to figure out how six people
Speaker 7: were killed? How are they going to put that in order?
Speaker 7: And so this trial did go for months, and much
Speaker 7: of it is tedious and some is very interesting. But
Speaker 7: you know that that was finding of the gun in
Speaker 7: the Stiliguamish River, and that was a great moment in
Speaker 7: the trial. Linda Teely, the person who first discovered the bodies,
Speaker 7: it was a great moment for the trial. Victim impact
Speaker 7: statements were great moments in the trial. And then there's
Speaker 7: a lot of the tediousness, but that they're a day
Speaker 7: when the jurors can feel something is about to happen.
Speaker 7: They see the you know, running around in the courtroom,
Speaker 7: and they see their bailiffs in the jury room and
Speaker 7: she's letting them know they're about to go on to
Speaker 7: is they're going to go in a different room in
Speaker 7: the courthouse, and the jury doesn't know what they're gonna see.
Speaker 7: And for me, when I sit in the gallery and
Speaker 7: I'm taking notes, I have great empathy for the poor
Speaker 7: juror because I know what they're about to see. They don't.
Speaker 7: And everything when your jertor every day is surprised every day,
Speaker 7: whether they are planned or not planned. Being a juror
Speaker 7: is impopful emotionally, physically, and it's taxing. So these jurors
Speaker 7: find out they're going somewhere, and so they're gonna go
Speaker 7: that morning, and then the jud says, no, we're going
Speaker 7: to move that to the afternoon. So the jury is
Speaker 7: still waiting water and what are you doing? And then
Speaker 7: finally they come back after lunch and the court takes
Speaker 7: them down to the first from the ninth floor to
Speaker 7: the first floor of the building and they are led
Speaker 7: into this room on the first floor down this fallway
Speaker 7: and they see some police take and they see is
Speaker 7: this is story room? They see chairs stagged and where
Speaker 7: are they going? What are they doing? But they are
Speaker 7: doing what jurors do. They are lands to the law.
Speaker 7: They follow the bail off where they need to go,
Speaker 7: and she leaves them into this big room and there
Speaker 7: are at this point there were fifteen jerors. There are
Speaker 7: fifteen serves lined up in a series of four rows,
Speaker 7: and the jurors are sad. And then the judge is there.
Speaker 7: They are sworn in, and then the prosecutors, scattered fill
Speaker 7: steps forward and in front of them is the exact
Speaker 7: replication for Rensing, replication of the murder scene where all
Speaker 7: six victims were killed. Everything from the blood blood spatter
Speaker 7: on the floor, to the blood spatter around the walls,
Speaker 7: to the bullet hole in the TV, to the actual furniture,
Speaker 7: the love seat where Eric and the children died. Everything
Speaker 7: set up as if it were Christmas Eve. The only
Speaker 7: thing you're missing is the smell of the roast in
Speaker 7: the other.
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Speaker 7: And the jury is then be a doctor here of
Speaker 7: the medical examiner and Scott otool through their inner change.
Speaker 7: The jury has been walked through virtually every blood saint
Speaker 7: in every bullet hole they see, and they are given
Speaker 7: a description of the living room as forensically interpreted. And
Speaker 7: at some point the defense asks their very few questions,
Speaker 7: and then Scott says to the judge, would there be
Speaker 7: any objection if the jurors actually could walk through this
Speaker 7: recreated scene? And the judge and doctor Harris said nope,
Speaker 7: there should be no harm in that. And so the
Speaker 7: jurors are given an opportunity to walk in this living
Speaker 7: room and it's not a big living and say fifteen
Speaker 7: by fifteen, but you see that two perpendicular couches, the
Speaker 7: coffee table where Judy had laid the trees for that
Speaker 7: Christmas Eve, the TV with a bullet hole that drapes
Speaker 7: with Scott's blood impacted all sixty down the drapes. You
Speaker 7: see that the afghan rack where one of the bullets
Speaker 7: had gone through. And the jurors are given that opportunity
Speaker 7: to walk and only three or four jers out of
Speaker 7: the fifteen actually walked on that floor and looked at
Speaker 7: the scene. And it's not that they're going to discover
Speaker 7: something something that hasn't been learned, but the court wanted
Speaker 7: to give them the opportunity to feel the impact of
Speaker 7: this tragedy. So at the end of the trial, when
Speaker 7: I was interviewing jurors, or I interviewed three did not
Speaker 7: take the opportunity to walk through that living room, and
Speaker 7: I asked, why why not you have the opportunity to look,
Speaker 7: you know, And the response I got was it's hallowed ground.
Speaker 7: I didn't feel I should be there. And then there
Speaker 7: was the juror who did that. I interviewed who did
Speaker 7: walk through, and she said, now, I think it was
Speaker 7: important to feel the impact of what they did, to
Speaker 7: see what they did. This be important to me in deliberations,
Speaker 7: and it was. But that was the climax of the trial,
Speaker 7: was the scene recreated exactly as it had been incarnation
Speaker 7: on Christmas Eve two thousand and seven.
Speaker 9: You also talk about having the jurors feel some impact,
Speaker 9: but also what chronicle in the book is that there's
Speaker 9: a big screen and their airs flashed things like the
Speaker 9: autopsy photo of all the people murdered, including a five
Speaker 9: year old and a three year old. Isn't it correct?
Speaker 7: Yes, that part just sitting in the gallery, it brings
Speaker 7: emotion and clears to your eyes and you're incredulous and
Speaker 7: you have anger. But when you're a juror, you have
Speaker 7: all of that, but you also have ownership and responsibility,
Speaker 7: and when you elevate that thought process to that level,
Speaker 7: each picture not only becomes part of your memory the
Speaker 7: rest of your life, as it was with these jurors.
Speaker 7: They impact to the points where long after the trial,
Speaker 7: many jurors is suffered from post traumatic stress syndrome. Sure,
Speaker 7: because it is one thing hearing about somebody being shot
Speaker 7: in the face. It is another to see that person
Speaker 7: on an autopsy table, and another when you're looking at
Speaker 7: blood spatter evidence. And this whole case both trials not
Speaker 7: to put Waying, Judy Scott or Erica on a lesser plane,
Speaker 7: but once you have children, a five year old in
Speaker 7: a three year old, you have beyond the pale, and
Speaker 7: you have jurors who have children exactly the same age
Speaker 7: as the victim. And those jurors were picked because they
Speaker 7: have children the same age as the victim, and that
Speaker 7: is something that will never leave jurors. But when you
Speaker 7: have that ownership and responsibility a job to do in
Speaker 7: that dreary box, it is a hard It is one
Speaker 7: of the most difficult tasks a person could ever be
Speaker 7: given in their life.
Speaker 9: You chronicle in your book something that I've never seen before,
Speaker 9: somebody this disruptive force in the trial, and the judge
Speaker 9: I thought was very, very diplomatic and very patient. And
Speaker 9: this woman claimed to be a pro say attorney. So
Speaker 9: to explain what she explained as the definition of pro
Speaker 9: say attorney, what was she doing there on behalf of
Speaker 9: the defendant and just tell us just a little bit
Speaker 9: about what she was trying to do and what kind
Speaker 9: of like I already mentioned these disruptive force, tell us
Speaker 9: a little bit about this pro say attorney at trial.
Speaker 7: Well, the first thing, Dan is, there is no such
Speaker 7: thing as a pro sae attorney.
Speaker 3: You you.
Speaker 7: Go pro say, you are represented pro sae and pro
Speaker 7: sae means means representation. You represent yourself in liu of
Speaker 7: an attorney, even about one has been offered to you.
Speaker 7: This I call her miss redacted in the book. Yeah,
Speaker 7: And I remember I had a conversation with Sarah Jean
Speaker 7: from the Seattle Times, who was in the courtroom quite often.
Speaker 7: We share notes and informations a lot, and she said,
Speaker 7: why are you writing about this misredacted? If you give attention,
Speaker 7: then more people will be out there like that, And
Speaker 7: that's what she wants and what was important, And this
Speaker 7: girl misredacted was as you saw in the book and
Speaker 7: as potential readers, this seed at random moments throughout the trial,
Speaker 7: the judge is supervising the case, the attorneys are doing
Speaker 7: what they need to do, and the most important thing
Speaker 7: that goes on was you have to remember this was
Speaker 7: the most expensive trial in Washington's safe history, and we're
Speaker 7: talking between Joseph and Michelle in the tens of millions
Speaker 7: of dollars. This is not a thing to be taken likely.
Speaker 7: And it's not only the case itself. Remember fifteen hundred
Speaker 7: jurors were summoned, with sixteen chosen to be in the
Speaker 7: jury box. The court is going to do everything it
Speaker 7: can to preformation flow to the jerk. Now you have
Speaker 7: an X factor in The X factor is a person
Speaker 7: who just starts talking out loud to the judge during
Speaker 7: the trial. The gallery is not an audience, or the
Speaker 7: gallery is an audience, but it's not meant to interplay
Speaker 7: with the court at all. In any way, girl kept
Speaker 7: same things in confronting the judge, and she would say, well,
Speaker 7: I'm a pro say attorney, and I have to command
Speaker 7: both the defense and prosecuting attorneys for not reacting out
Speaker 7: loud or taking this personal. And Judge Ramsdell did handle
Speaker 7: her well. He had to protect the trial and the
Speaker 7: juror and my concern, and we lost a juror in
Speaker 7: this trial. And I can comfortably say had it not
Speaker 7: been for misredacted, the court would not have lost during
Speaker 7: sixteen because in her vocal explanations she mentioned something about
Speaker 7: the Maxima trial. These jurors not only were they really
Speaker 7: not to know about it. They could know the murders happened,
Speaker 7: but could not know really about the merged. That's why
Speaker 7: they were selected. And then you had this random person
Speaker 7: in the gallery and mis redacted who gives them information
Speaker 7: about Joseph athenrote and everything about Joseph Macimo was supposed
Speaker 7: to be excluded from this trial. If you can believe
Speaker 7: that it is. It's hard to do. But that's why
Speaker 7: this whole thing became two books. But this redacted is
Speaker 7: also a symbol for people like her that do this
Speaker 7: in high profile trials all over the country. It is
Speaker 7: not that this person was all vocal in the gallery.
Speaker 7: It was the first time this ever had file. You know,
Speaker 7: when I was at Jolly Areas, it was a factor
Speaker 7: we had to deal with. When I was a juror myself,
Speaker 7: it was a factor we had to deal with, and
Speaker 7: maybe not to the degree that this person was in
Speaker 7: the book. But the thing that was important to me
Speaker 7: in the book, and I kept the motion of day.
Speaker 7: But the thing that is very frustrating for a judge
Speaker 7: if it would be much easier to kick a person
Speaker 7: out and call it a day. And Judge Ramsay did
Speaker 7: the fair use balanced the letter. Have your piece, But
Speaker 7: people like this are dangerous for trials. They're just dangerous.
Speaker 7: And it is my belief that if you are in
Speaker 7: the gallery and you are allowed to watch the trial,
Speaker 7: we have ports that are open to the public, you
Speaker 7: are not to say anything. You are to be seen
Speaker 7: and not heard. Literally. So there was frustration not only
Speaker 7: from from Judge Ramsell and irritation from the attorneys. They
Speaker 7: did a great job at keeping calm, but the family,
Speaker 7: and the family is in the galley, the family of
Speaker 7: the victims, and the fact that they have to hear
Speaker 7: this brothers is really an insult to them, to the victims,
Speaker 7: and for the process of justice. Now, in talking to
Speaker 7: surgerism to the Seattle Browns, she'll never put that in
Speaker 7: a newspaper. I understand that. But I as a writer
Speaker 7: of books, I think all facets of the trial are important,
Speaker 7: All facets of what the jerius is. So although her
Speaker 7: actions did not cause them this trial, they came down close.
Speaker 9: You talk about Michelle Anderson exercising her right to testify,
Speaker 9: but notifying her lawyers at the very last minute and
Speaker 9: them advising against it. Explain what this lack of timing
Speaker 9: did for her, and what the judge's response was, and
Speaker 9: what ultimately, even though she had the right, what happened
Speaker 9: with this idea to testify on her own behalf It was.
Speaker 7: As a dependent you have a right to test absolutely,
Speaker 7: But as for those who who watch trials or in
Speaker 7: the business and see this is regular thing. Oftentimes in
Speaker 7: the guilt phase, it is not advisable and it's often
Speaker 7: not seen that the defendant will get up on the
Speaker 7: stand and in all issues, now, if it were, if
Speaker 7: death were on the table, it's a different story because
Speaker 7: in the death penalty phase of the trial, you're not
Speaker 7: deciding guilt, you're deciding on more of those untouchable things.
Speaker 7: So it's important that you see and feel the genuineness
Speaker 7: of the defendants and hopefully remotest all of that information
Speaker 7: for the jury may mitigate them to the point where
Speaker 7: they don't give the defendent debt so that came a
Speaker 7: day it had Michelle Anderson had made it clear with
Speaker 7: first of all, if I may back up game. The
Speaker 7: trial actually started two weeks late because her defense attorneys said,
Speaker 7: we can't do it. You're on her. They've filled out
Speaker 7: emotion and everything and asked to be lifted of the
Speaker 7: responsibility of defending Michelle because she would not communicate with them.
Speaker 7: As a matter of fact, she had not communicated with
Speaker 7: her attorneys and over seven years is the most stated.
Speaker 7: So the trial was supposed to start, the motion went through,
Speaker 7: it got delayed, and the judge said, nope, you're in.
Speaker 7: We got to have you and that set so they
Speaker 7: had this. They had a very difficult task in front
Speaker 7: of them, trying to defend a defendant who wouldn't tell
Speaker 7: them anything, who resented them, who these were attorneys given
Speaker 7: to her by our tax dollars. She didn't have to
Speaker 7: pay a dime for these. We give her these attorneys,
Speaker 7: but she wouldn't communicate with them. So they had a
Speaker 7: weak case. Even the opening statement. The defense didn't give
Speaker 7: an opening statement. They had nothing to work with. She
Speaker 7: wouldn't communicate. So it comes towards the very end of
Speaker 7: the trial before the jury Sept Bt for deliberations, and
Speaker 7: all of a sudden, the shell blerts out that this
Speaker 7: is not fair. She wants new attorneys, and she wants
Speaker 7: to get on the stand. Ah my goodness. And that
Speaker 7: day everything went upside down and created and you could
Speaker 7: see the judge were up in his forehead. The prosecution, however,
Speaker 7: took it cool as a cucumber, because when he made
Speaker 7: his presentation to the judge, after Michelle said I want
Speaker 7: to testify, well, Judge Ramsdell didn't see it coming. The
Speaker 7: defense attorneys didn't see it coming. So the judge explains
Speaker 7: to it, if you do this is I don't recommend
Speaker 7: it at this point, at this point in time, but
Speaker 7: it is. Of course, he relapsed. But when Scott O'Toole
Speaker 7: presented his case, he said, I want to make it
Speaker 7: clear that the questioning of the witness will be unfailing,
Speaker 7: intense and without reports. And by the time lunch rolled around,
Speaker 7: and after lunch, Michelle, who I believe was friends or
Speaker 7: an acquaintance of misredacted, spat out some lines that were
Speaker 7: identical to things misredacted at seven Court about her constitutional
Speaker 7: rights were being violated and I'm gonna I'm going to
Speaker 7: find my own attorneys, Okay, I won't testify. Decided not
Speaker 7: to testify, but for a moment there we thought she
Speaker 7: would get on the stand, and if she had done that,
Speaker 7: it would have been regally it just really would have
Speaker 7: been suicide.
Speaker 9: We haven't spoken about basically when you talked about the
Speaker 9: kind of the contradictory statements they both made and the
Speaker 9: police having to sort through those, and the course the
Speaker 9: court's having tolign them those statements up against the forensic evidence,
Speaker 9: so they had to sort through all that. What exactly
Speaker 9: was her position in terms of culpability in this? Did
Speaker 9: she downplay her responsibility? What exactly did she say in
Speaker 9: response that was contradictory to forensic evidence and still something
Speaker 9: that she maintained throughout.
Speaker 7: She was very, very very protective of Joseph McEnroe. Beginning
Speaker 7: with her confession on December twenty sixth. She was she
Speaker 7: took responsibility. It took her an hour to actually get
Speaker 7: there in this interview, but she took responsibility the lies
Speaker 7: where a lot of them were rooted, and Joseph only
Speaker 7: did what I told him to do. Joseph wouldn't have
Speaker 7: done this if it weren't for me, that's true. But
Speaker 7: Joseph then took the opportunity to really try and convince
Speaker 7: everybody that it was all Michelle. She made me do it.
Speaker 7: I was the victim, and he really was like that.
Speaker 7: Or this is eight years after the fact, but he
Speaker 7: really portrayed himself like that, the victim. She made me
Speaker 7: do it. Oh, I wouldn't have done it if it
Speaker 7: weren't for her. That's not It's just not true. And
Speaker 7: I'll tell you this then once once you get the
Speaker 7: visual of who Michelle is, one of the first things
Speaker 7: he realizes she isn't very smart. Matter of fact, we
Speaker 7: could say comfortably, she's done. And the thing that bothered
Speaker 7: me and bothered the jurors, because they look at her
Speaker 7: as a jury you look at the defundant and the
Speaker 7: thing that bothered them was not only how she could
Speaker 7: do it, but realistically, if you decide, Dan, I want
Speaker 7: to murder somebody, and you go to execute that plan
Speaker 7: to kill one person, how many things can go wrong
Speaker 7: to prevent you from doing that. There's a million things.
Speaker 7: So how in the world did this very stupid girl,
Speaker 7: Michelle Anderson, somehow without getting one scratch on her one
Speaker 7: defensive offensive wound on her. How was she able to
Speaker 7: execute sit people in two different time periods within two
Speaker 7: of the people being three hundred pounds meant how did
Speaker 7: she pull that up? And it sure wasn't Oh shut him, Joe,
Speaker 7: shoot him, Joe. It much more than that. There was planning,
Speaker 7: there was execution. If Michelle and Joe had not met
Speaker 7: each other, I do not think these murders ever would
Speaker 7: have happened. But Michelle was mentally incapable of manifesting a
Speaker 7: plan like this and having it work out like that. Joe,
Speaker 7: on the other hand, as he said in his trial,
Speaker 7: as Scott O'Toole eloquently pointed out, and had him trapped
Speaker 7: in the corner when he caught him. When when and
Speaker 7: Judy were killed and they were lying on the floor
Speaker 7: into waying in the dining room, at the dining room
Speaker 7: table on the floor in a crumpltee, Judy tucked in
Speaker 7: the corner by the refrigerator, dead blood. Michelle fell apart.
Speaker 7: Oh my god, Oh my god. I don't know what
Speaker 7: to say, Oh my god. And Scott asked Joe. So,
Speaker 7: Scott o'phill somebody was in charge? Who was in charge?
Speaker 7: And it came out, Joe was in charge. It was
Speaker 7: his idea to move the bodies and where to move them.
Speaker 7: It was his idea how to clean up the scene,
Speaker 7: not to hide it from the cops, but to hide
Speaker 7: it from the four unsuspected victims that were going to
Speaker 7: be there in two hours. It was Joe who came
Speaker 7: up with the idea of burning that the drugs and
Speaker 7: sheets out in the fire pit in front of their trailer.
Speaker 7: Joe who came up with the idea of wincing everything
Speaker 7: in the bath hub so they could make the house
Speaker 7: look all normal again, so that when Scott, Derek had
Speaker 7: Nathan Olivia got there, they wouldn't notice anything going on.
Speaker 7: And it was Joe who made the decision to leave
Speaker 7: the oven on so that the new visitors would smell
Speaker 7: the roast in the oven, thereby thinking everything was normal.
Speaker 7: And it was Joe after the murders, after the police
Speaker 7: made the initial visit at five point thirty in the
Speaker 7: evening on Christmas Eve, when Michelle and Joe came back
Speaker 7: and they searched the bodies and hid more evidence and
Speaker 7: manipulated things, found the phone battery. But it was Joe's
Speaker 7: idea before they'd left Wayne and Judy's house for good.
Speaker 7: It was Joe's idea to turn the oven off. What
Speaker 7: you saw was not necessarily really transpired.
Speaker 9: You talk about again it's overused, but this was there
Speaker 9: any remorse, But you talk about the matter of fact
Speaker 9: recitation of the events that happened when she takes in
Speaker 9: this in this confession, but also that there's no tears.
Speaker 9: So when you talk about Joe took charge, I can
Speaker 9: certainly say that he did take charge, but it doesn't
Speaker 9: seem like she was so upset after killing her parents.
Speaker 9: And like you say, they both planned and laid in
Speaker 9: wait for those other people to come over, didn't they
Speaker 9: It seems they did.
Speaker 7: I would It took about an after the initial murders.
Speaker 7: It took about an hour, hour and fifteen minutes to
Speaker 7: get it cleaned up enough so that Scott would not
Speaker 7: his suspicion wouldn't be raised when he got in the house.
Speaker 7: So my feeling is they were both sitting on the
Speaker 7: couch for a half hour forty five minutes and waiting
Speaker 7: for the next four to show up.
Speaker 9: Incredible, you say the public's response and media response tell
Speaker 9: us how big this story was with the media. But
Speaker 9: what was the community response, like, what was well, I mean,
Speaker 9: what was it?
Speaker 7: Oh Dan, It's a really good question. As one can imagine,
Speaker 7: this was. This was really painful for for everyone who
Speaker 7: heard about it. Not only these senselessness of it, not
Speaker 7: only the two children, and not only that we using
Speaker 7: behind it. It impacted home. For example, before I started
Speaker 7: posting on the grid, I would attend the trial daily
Speaker 7: and then every day on Facebook and the various true
Speaker 7: crime websites I use. I posed I basically a daily
Speaker 7: diary of of what happened at the trial. And before
Speaker 7: I did that, somebody messaged me and said, Paul, I'm
Speaker 7: really nervous about you. We're doing this. I'm even afraid
Speaker 7: to really even read about it. You have to understand
Speaker 7: how emotional this is. And she said, I'll give you
Speaker 7: an example. One of the people that I am good
Speaker 7: friends with is the kindergarten teacher to Olivia, and she
Speaker 7: can't bear the look at being involving this. Ben Anderson
Speaker 7: married Victorious was He lost his grandparents and the rest
Speaker 7: of his family all in one fell swoop. He was
Speaker 7: only a teenager when this happened, so how does he
Speaker 7: rectify this? The rest of his life. Then you have
Speaker 7: Pamela Mantle, who spoke with Erica, her daughter every day,
Speaker 7: who was there at the birth of the children, who
Speaker 7: was there when when when Olivia was excited about her
Speaker 7: first day of school, Pamela Mantle had bought her that
Speaker 7: Christmas a pink bicycle something Olivia, Oh, just trade forward
Speaker 7: and Olivia never got to ride the bike. So this
Speaker 7: gives me just the slightest can't thrust of a slope
Speaker 7: of the emotion involved to the people who were in
Speaker 7: the ripple effect of these murders. So since the murderers,
Speaker 7: there's a memorial built at the Carnation Carnas Post office.
Speaker 7: Kimberly Moody is still there to this day. Kimberly Moody
Speaker 7: still works and the same spot Judy was in and
Speaker 7: she still thinks of it every day when she goes
Speaker 7: out and back and sits on the park bench, the
Speaker 7: same park bench that Judy sat on every day during
Speaker 7: the break. And there's a little memorial sign up there
Speaker 7: for Juke Anderson. She thinks about Judy every day. There's
Speaker 7: a little memorial garden right outside the post office that
Speaker 7: has meant just for Judy. There's the memorial that was
Speaker 7: built in Seaside, Oregon, overlooking the oocean, the favorite place
Speaker 7: that Scott Erica and the children used to love to
Speaker 7: go to during the summer. There is the more memorial
Speaker 7: built at the Black Dynings element gul where Olivia went
Speaker 7: to school, and the community got together and built a
Speaker 7: memorial outside. And then ultimately I'm working at a permanent
Speaker 7: memorial for Carnason. But this impacted far wide, indeed in
Speaker 7: the Northwest, and the biggest thing is really the senselessness
Speaker 7: of it. And then when you had children into the victims,
Speaker 7: that's it. It ripped people's hearts out.
Speaker 9: You talk about the three days it took to deliberate
Speaker 9: in this it was again a long trial, as you say,
Speaker 9: and very very expensive, and tried without every witness of
Speaker 9: the forantic and all the forensic experts, why witnesses, everybody
Speaker 9: involved with this very meticulous had a defense, but like
Speaker 9: you say, not much to go on with the defendants
Speaker 9: not cooperating whatsoever. And it is completely guilty and has
Speaker 9: already signed a confession. So tell us about the sentencing
Speaker 9: and then what you do around that sentencing time. In
Speaker 9: terms of regarding Joseph McEnroe.
Speaker 7: With this case or with all cases, what fascinates me is,
Speaker 7: regardless of how long a jury sits in a jury
Speaker 7: room and deliberates, what is that thing that hits them
Speaker 7: over the edge. It's more elusive to find that thing
Speaker 7: when when death is on the table. But in the
Speaker 7: guilt phase, what is that thing that just the jury
Speaker 7: can squeeze the trigger it? And in this case it
Speaker 7: was it was as if Erica spoke from the grave,
Speaker 7: because it was her uh nine one one call, and
Speaker 7: it was them listening to it over and over and
Speaker 7: over again. And what was I about that? What was
Speaker 7: extremely important about that was there was a juror who
Speaker 7: said somebody had asked way back injury selection. They had
Speaker 7: said to the they were talking about premeditation. One of
Speaker 7: the jurors said, oh, pre meditation takes five minutes. Well,
Speaker 7: pre meditation is not determined in five minutes. And what
Speaker 7: the jury had to grapple with was, is each squeeze
Speaker 7: of the trigger premeditation. You know what, most would argue
Speaker 7: it is premeditation, But the jury strives for something a
Speaker 7: little more than just that. They have to know individually
Speaker 7: that the decision they make is something not only the
Speaker 7: family has to live with. They have to live with
Speaker 7: and in this case, it came down to that eleven
Speaker 7: second phone call. And what was important about the eleven
Speaker 7: second phone call was the fact that in that eleven seconds,
Speaker 7: Joseph McEnroe and Michelle Anderson had the opportunity to stop
Speaker 7: to not make the next decisions that they made. It
Speaker 7: was right there, and they didn't. They chose to go
Speaker 7: to the other side, and that that's what the jury
Speaker 7: had to deal with. So they made their decision and
Speaker 7: in it, even though there's comfort in a jury collectively
Speaker 7: reaching a decision, at the end of the day, it
Speaker 7: is a mere pittance of a band aid for the
Speaker 7: horror of six murders. In other words, they have done
Speaker 7: their job, but they feel like it's someone inadequate because
Speaker 7: it will not bring six people back. But there is
Speaker 7: some solace in being able to collectively make that decision,
Speaker 7: but it's minor compared to what the base of the situation.
Speaker 7: So the day of sentencing comes, you have the verdicts,
Speaker 7: and then there's usually anywhere between you a month and
Speaker 7: a two month delay between verdict and sentencing. And so
Speaker 7: for the jury, even though they are released from their
Speaker 7: admonishment after making their verdict. Jurors typically will not come
Speaker 7: out and talkil until after sentencing, and it's always interesting
Speaker 7: to see how many come back for sentencing. And in
Speaker 7: this case, I am pretty comfortable in saying it was
Speaker 7: nine jurors came back from both the mac and Roe
Speaker 7: trial and the Michelle Anderson trial, and they came back
Speaker 7: to sit in the front row and see the render
Speaker 7: of sentencing. It's that it's the fruit of their labors,
Speaker 7: but more importantly to the juror, when they see sentencing,
Speaker 7: it's something for the family. Although little, it's something, but
Speaker 7: there is still even though in this case it was
Speaker 7: obvious on the surface these six victims and how they
Speaker 7: were killed and who did it and who premeditated it,
Speaker 7: there was still that anticipation of will the law actually
Speaker 7: work or somehow is the sencing going to be less
Speaker 7: than what? And they got the whole sabang, they got
Speaker 7: the banquet of consequences. And what's really interesting that I
Speaker 7: really never took note of before was that for what
Speaker 7: once the judge permitted on the sentence sentencing to life
Speaker 7: without arole, there's a process that starts. And it's not
Speaker 7: just that the defendant is fingerprinted, the defendant is handed
Speaker 7: as a series of documents to sign and one and
Speaker 7: these are things that we as common law abiding citizens
Speaker 7: take for granted. But one of them is the right
Speaker 7: to vote. So it's it's there is some comfort to
Speaker 7: the family and to the jurors to watch as Michelle
Speaker 7: Anderson signed her way to her rights to vote ever again,
Speaker 7: as she's signed a way to rights to ever own
Speaker 7: a firearm again, as she signed away her rights to
Speaker 7: her life. And it was something that some of us
Speaker 7: would feel not or not because it was never put
Speaker 7: on the table. The death penalty was not put on
Speaker 7: the table for her for two reasons, Washington stays, the
Speaker 7: governor is put a moratorium on any executions and number
Speaker 7: two on the penalty phase of the death penalty trial
Speaker 7: of Joseph McEnroe. The jury hunt. So the state had
Speaker 7: to make a decision do we go after death where
Speaker 7: we may end up with a hung jury and we
Speaker 7: may never actually execute Joseph McEnroe, or do we just
Speaker 7: have the jury deal with the guilt phase. And that's
Speaker 7: what happened. So after the trawl nothing jury they have
Speaker 7: to meet that. But I was looking for the conclusion
Speaker 7: of the banqueted Consequences. It was six people dig two
Speaker 7: murders about with one. But there was a Malcolm Rose
Speaker 7: trial that happened while I was at the Jilly Areas trial,
Speaker 7: so there's no way I could see that live. So
Speaker 7: I thought, you know what, I'll be like Truman Capoti,
Speaker 7: and what I'll do is I will go meet the killer.
Speaker 7: And although right now I approached with some levity and comfort,
Speaker 7: it wasn't that. It was not that comfortable. When I
Speaker 7: went out to see him, I thought I was falling
Speaker 7: off my rocker or something. Why in the world would
Speaker 7: I want to do this. Why would I want to
Speaker 7: risk upsetting the family by going and seeing him? And
Speaker 7: it would upset the family because you're giving attention to
Speaker 7: his name, where the names that should be remembered are
Speaker 7: the victims, not him. But I had questions. And my thing,
Speaker 7: as you and I had discussed earlier, was that Michelle,
Speaker 7: at the end of the day convicted life without parole
Speaker 7: or not. It was really hard to say see how
Speaker 7: she was able to do all of that. So I thought,
Speaker 7: we'll go there's a mac moro. Well, here what he
Speaker 7: has to say. People said he had remorse. Let's see
Speaker 7: if he's got it, and then there you go, there's
Speaker 7: the end of the book. We'll call it a day.
Speaker 7: So I went out and I sat with him for
Speaker 7: seven hours. Mind it took three months sets or get
Speaker 7: the interview, and then you go for background shacks and
Speaker 7: prison and oh the rules are really crazy. But I
Speaker 7: found myself finally in front of him, hands on the table,
Speaker 7: no no pad, no pen, no recording devices, no cell phones.
Speaker 7: We talk about for seven hours. Well, what I wanted
Speaker 7: to talk about is what happened? And how could you
Speaker 7: do that? Really is why can you do that? I
Speaker 7: wanted to see kind of inside inside his head and
Speaker 7: thinking he showed remors part of remorse. What goes part
Speaker 7: and parcel with remorse is true. If you're remorseful, you're truthful.
Speaker 7: How that works? So I thought, this is what I
Speaker 7: was going to get. So I did the interview and
Speaker 7: then and then I left Wallawalla Prison. I drove through
Speaker 7: the gorge, ended up inside, saw the memorial, cried my
Speaker 7: heart out, went back home. Finished the book. And one
Speaker 7: thing I do before it finished books, or when I
Speaker 7: finished books before, I don't just put it out there
Speaker 7: what I want or What is extremely important to me
Speaker 7: is that the jurors I've interviewed read the book ahead
Speaker 7: of time. The family most importantly needs to read the
Speaker 7: book and when it's a paper manuscript before it goes
Speaker 7: out there. I gave it to family Mantles, she loved
Speaker 7: the book. I was honored. Gave it to the jurors
Speaker 7: from both trials. The jurors from Michelle Anderson trial said, wow,
Speaker 7: great book, loved it. Love that end with Joseph macenroe.
Speaker 7: But the jury foreman from Joseph macknroe, she wrote me
Speaker 7: long letter and she said, even though we are family,
Speaker 7: and we are and I know what your intent is
Speaker 7: when you wrote this, she said, you're wrong. And then
Speaker 7: Scott Scott O'Toole. I had sent him a copy because
Speaker 7: he helped me on various things questions. So that's a trial.
Speaker 7: I sent a copy of it him. I want the
Speaker 7: past three day's approval before I put this hat to
Speaker 7: the popult said you know what. I love the books.
Speaker 7: He said, but you are wrong. And from ball came
Speaker 7: the new book, which I'm looking to release this winner.
Speaker 7: I'll be on the Taal rod jeror the Joseph McEnroe
Speaker 7: death penalty trial and cause of the honesty of the foreman,
Speaker 7: because of the honesty of Scotto tool. Once I've bund
Speaker 7: deeper into the rest of the story specifically and goes
Speaker 7: to Macenrol, it's frightening. It's absolutely frightening. But I'm glad
Speaker 7: I interviewed him, and I'm glad I took the advice
Speaker 7: of the people involved in the search for justice.
Speaker 9: Overall. I guess we won't give too much away because
Speaker 9: this was leading up to your next book about his
Speaker 9: death penalty sentence. Pardon me, his death penalty trial, Joseph McEnroe,
Speaker 9: You say again, I guess we'll just have to wait
Speaker 9: for the next book in another interview. But you say
Speaker 9: that seven and a half hours, What did you employ?
Speaker 9: How did you get through to him to get to
Speaker 9: that despite all this contradictory information and people blaming each other.
Speaker 9: What was that one thing or how was it that
Speaker 9: moment where you broke through and thought, you know what,
Speaker 9: I'm getting the real truth from this psychopathic killer.
Speaker 7: Okay, there's a point in the interview I said, Joseph,
Speaker 7: I need to ask you. He wouldn't talk about the children.
Speaker 7: He talked about the killing of duty and the killing
Speaker 7: of Scott and the killing of Wayne. But when it
Speaker 7: came to the children, he was not only evasive, he
Speaker 7: would completely shut down. And so when I felt in
Speaker 7: the air via that we were getting into an area
Speaker 7: where he wouldn't talk, whatever came to the top of
Speaker 7: my mind, I would reroute and then try and come
Speaker 7: back at that night. But we'll deal with this more
Speaker 7: in the new books. But there was the point in
Speaker 7: time I said, Joe, I got to ask you if
Speaker 7: Mary Victoria had showed up on Christmas Eve with her
Speaker 7: six year old son, which would be presumably after you
Speaker 7: had killed Wayne and Judy, and probably before Scott, Eric
Speaker 7: and Nathan Olivia, would you have killed them as well?
Speaker 7: And he one of the only times he ever stopped
Speaker 7: and looked me direct in the eye, and he said, never. Never. Now,
Speaker 7: what's incongruous about that? Dan is Olivia and Nathan five
Speaker 7: and three years old? You put a three fifty seven
Speaker 7: into their forehead and fired. So what makes Mary Victoria?
Speaker 7: And that's the question I want you to ponder, because
Speaker 7: what that doesn't make sense to me at all. Now.
Speaker 7: The other thing about that interview is I used to
Speaker 7: call it a kaleidoscope of ironies, when in fact it
Speaker 7: was a painting of lives. So my job, as a writer,
Speaker 7: not a prosecutor, not a defense attorney is to is
Speaker 7: to say it and pull that information out and make
Speaker 7: good decisions from that. That's a question, why would Mary
Speaker 7: Victoria be different than a five year old and a
Speaker 7: three year old? And I think once we get to
Speaker 7: the heart of that, it's a fighting proposition.
Speaker 9: Absolutely. I want to thank you Paul for coming on
Speaker 9: and talking about Banquet of Consequences, the juror's plight, the
Speaker 9: carnation murders trial of Michelle Anderson. You mentioned just a
Speaker 9: minute ago about the book that's a follow up to that.
Speaker 9: So maybe you can mention that in any way that
Speaker 9: people might be able to contact you if you have
Speaker 9: a website Facebook, tell us a little bit about how
Speaker 9: they might take a look at other work or be
Speaker 9: able to contact you about this or anything else. Tell
Speaker 9: us a little bit about that.
Speaker 7: I so much appreciate that, Dan appreciated the opportunity to
Speaker 7: be on your show with your listeners. Thank you all
Speaker 7: for listening. You can find me on Facebook as Paul Sanders,
Speaker 7: and then I have a website called the thirteenth Duror MD,
Speaker 7: thirteen numbers, the thirteen jurormd dot Com, Twitter, the thirteenth
Speaker 7: Juror MD and uh. And then Amazon is where I'm located.
Speaker 7: You can go under Amazon Author Amazon Author Paul Sanders.
Speaker 7: You will see my author central page which has got
Speaker 7: all my books, which is bring Damage to His Tale,
Speaker 7: Why Not Killer? A juror's perspective, as well as Banquet
Speaker 7: of Consequences, which a minor to say has been a
Speaker 7: bestseller the last few weeks. And then the new book
Speaker 7: expected at this Christmas is called Beyond the Pale Rogue
Speaker 7: dur the Death Penalty Trial of Joseph McEnroe. But I'm
Speaker 7: out there. I'm available on Facebook, my website, Twitter, reach out,
Speaker 7: want to meet new people.
Speaker 9: Great again, thank you very much. Banquet of Consequences, thank
Speaker 9: you very much. Paul Sanders, hope to talk to you
Speaker 9: again soon. You have a great evening, and good night.
Speaker 7: Thank you, sir,