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<v Speaker 1>In nineteen thirty one, two women were found murdered and

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<v Speaker 1>stuffed into a series of travel trunks. Their remains were

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<v Speaker 1>discovered as blood leaked from the trunks in a Los

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<v Speaker 1>Angeles train station. The person responsible a twenty six year

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<v Speaker 1>old woman named Winnie Ruth Judd, who claimed it was

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<v Speaker 1>all self defense, but as investigators dug deeper, they uncovered

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<v Speaker 1>a tangle mess of love affairs, jealousy, political connections, and

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<v Speaker 1>a possible accomplice who simply walked away scott free.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the.

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<v Speaker 1>Story of Winnie Ruth Judd, aka the Trunk Murderous.

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<v Speaker 2>My name's Ben, I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked

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<v Speaker 2>and Grim.

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<v Speaker 1>A true crime podcasting material for a mature audience.

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<v Speaker 2>Listener discretion is advised.

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<v Speaker 1>This might be a part one. I haven't decided yet.

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<v Speaker 2>You're going to see how it goes.

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<v Speaker 1>That's exactly what I'm doing, because this is a big case.

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<v Speaker 1>I've got it all done. But it's a matter of

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<v Speaker 1>how well this goes today, Okay, how much we get through,

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<v Speaker 1>how long it takes us, discussions we might have, whatever.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a plethora of reasons that this may or may

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<v Speaker 1>not be Part one, So if you're curious. If this

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<v Speaker 1>is going to be a two parter, part one will

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<v Speaker 1>be in the title. If part one isn't in the title,

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<v Speaker 1>then we just we we do the whole thing today.

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<v Speaker 2>Then we rallied through away.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, yeah, this is an interesting case. I am surprised

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<v Speaker 1>I haven't heard of this one before, because it's a

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<v Speaker 1>pretty big one.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, I don't think I have either. It sounds

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<v Speaker 2>like I don't know. It's gonna keep us on our toes.

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<v Speaker 1>I think, oh, definitely. And honestly, Okay, I was thinking

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<v Speaker 1>of this the other day. When we say we haven't

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<v Speaker 1>heard of this case before, I really think we probably

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<v Speaker 1>have heard many of these cases. It's just we haven't

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<v Speaker 1>dove into it and really learned about it.

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<v Speaker 2>I guess.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we've probably come across it, heard article or read

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<v Speaker 1>articles or clippings or whatever, but then we forget about them.

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<v Speaker 1>They blend into other stories, and then a couple of

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<v Speaker 1>years later we come across it again and it's yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>that's that's my fear.

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<v Speaker 2>You have, like no recollection. I can't even recollection recollection

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<v Speaker 2>of it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's my theory at least.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean we kind of like eat sleep and

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<v Speaker 2>breed true crime often, and I know I don't retain

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<v Speaker 2>even like someone will bring up an episode we did

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<v Speaker 2>a week and I'm like, oh my god, what was it.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm like trying to figure out in my head and remember, right.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, we've done so many and it's always on to

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<v Speaker 1>the next one, Right well.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's a coping mechanism too, to just kind

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<v Speaker 2>of like do it and then like put it out

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<v Speaker 2>of your head. Because if you had all the shit

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<v Speaker 2>in your head that we have talked about and you be,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, it would might not be good for your

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<v Speaker 2>mental health.

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<v Speaker 1>I would probably be in a padded cell right now.

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<v Speaker 1>I honestly think I would. Well yeah, but do you

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<v Speaker 1>know what I think is actually the craziest thing of

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<v Speaker 1>all this. What's that is when someone goes and supports

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<v Speaker 1>us on Patreon because they are so amazing.

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<v Speaker 2>I knew that that I could see your like wheels

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<v Speaker 2>just turning and how you're gonna transition this. I like it.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm sorry, I'm sorry that we have amazing people

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<v Speaker 1>who sign up on Patreon, people like Jessica Burrows and

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<v Speaker 1>heather's Anini for example. They're incredible because they signed up

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<v Speaker 1>on Patreon this week and shout out to you guys.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you, You're amazing.

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<v Speaker 2>Shout out to you too. That's awesome.

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<v Speaker 1>I can't believe you're just like giving me shit for

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<v Speaker 1>my transition.

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<v Speaker 2>Give you shit. But I could just see it. I

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<v Speaker 2>was like, it's coming, it's coming.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you got to make a fun situation out of it.

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<v Speaker 1>You're gonna transition somehow, right, totally okay, Well, especially if

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to be going into a dark story like

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<v Speaker 1>this one.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm glad that I made myself a nice, warm,

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<v Speaker 2>hot chocolate to listen to this good call.

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<v Speaker 1>I will tell you this is a bit of a

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<v Speaker 1>deep dive. So try not to ask too many questions

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<v Speaker 1>about like what like going ahead, because I'll probably be

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<v Speaker 1>answering those.

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<v Speaker 2>It's going to be covered.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so save those questions from near the end, if

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<v Speaker 1>at all.

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<v Speaker 2>Possible, me not ask questions.

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<v Speaker 1>You can ask questions, just try to hold back on

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<v Speaker 1>maybe have discussions on things rather than questions, how's that okay?

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<v Speaker 1>Because I don't want to be like I'll be answering that.

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<v Speaker 1>I'll be answering that constantly. Yeah, okay, fair enough, all right,

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<v Speaker 1>So let's start. Winnie Ruth McKinnell was born on January

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<v Speaker 1>twenty ninth, nineteen oh five, in the small town of Oxford, Indiana.

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<v Speaker 1>She was the daughter of a Methodist minister, H. J. McKinnell,

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<v Speaker 1>and her mother, Carrie, was deeply involved in the church. Ruth,

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<v Speaker 1>along with her brother Burton, was raised in a strict

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<v Speaker 1>religious household. Not much as documented about their very early years,

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<v Speaker 1>but the picture painted later is one of a young

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<v Speaker 1>woman who took things to heart, especially when it came

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<v Speaker 1>to being hurt. There's a story, for example, from her

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<v Speaker 1>teenage years that really stands out, and it's not exactly

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<v Speaker 1>a good one. At sixteen, Ruth was dumped by a boyfriend.

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<v Speaker 1>She was heartbroken and humiliated over it, and she didn't

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<v Speaker 1>just cry. She staged her own kidnapping and falsely accused

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<v Speaker 1>her now ex boyfriend of kidnapping and is sexually assaulting her.

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<v Speaker 2>Who.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, he was arrested and things got serious before the

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<v Speaker 1>truth eventually came out.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh boy.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Even then, it was clear Ruth didn't handle rejection

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<v Speaker 1>well and she wasn't above cross the line to get

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<v Speaker 1>attention or revenge. At seventeen, she got married. The man

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<v Speaker 1>she chose was a doctor, William Craig Judd, a physician

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<v Speaker 1>nearly twenty years her senior and a veteran of World

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<v Speaker 1>War One. He had been injured in the war and

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<v Speaker 1>lived with chronic pain, and like many men of his time,

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<v Speaker 1>he managed it the only way he knew how, through

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<v Speaker 1>substance abuse of morphine. Eventually, that pain management turned into

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<v Speaker 1>a full blown addiction, and while William tried to keep

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<v Speaker 1>it hidden, it had a lasting effect on their life together.

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<v Speaker 1>Early in their marriage, the couple moved to Mexico, where

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<v Speaker 1>doctor Judd worked as a medical physician for a mining

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<v Speaker 1>company and later offered care in rural villages. Ruth helped

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<v Speaker 1>with the practice and ran their household as well, but

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<v Speaker 1>it was far from the life that she'd imagined. They

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<v Speaker 1>were constantly moving, never quite settled, and William couldn't hold

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<v Speaker 1>down a job for long. On top of that, ruth

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<v Speaker 1>health started to fail. She developed tuberculosis, a condition that

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<v Speaker 1>she would struggle with for the rest of her life.

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<v Speaker 1>Adding to the strain, the couple discovered they wouldn't be

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<v Speaker 1>able to have children. Their marriage quietly began to fall apart,

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<v Speaker 1>not with a big explosion or anything, but it was slow, painful,

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<v Speaker 1>and distant. William eventually moved to Los Angeles, while Ruth

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<v Speaker 1>decided to try and make a new start somewhere else.

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<v Speaker 1>That new start came for her in Phoenix, Arizona, in

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen thirty. Now, back then, Phoenix was still finding its identity.

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<v Speaker 1>The Great Depression had hit, but the city was growing

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<v Speaker 1>fast and was in the middle of a transition. It

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<v Speaker 1>had once been a dusty desert town, but now was

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<v Speaker 1>becoming a place of new beginnings. The population had doubled

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<v Speaker 1>in nineteen twenty through the nineteen twenties sorry for and

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<v Speaker 1>the Great Depression had thrown a wrench into the economy.

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<v Speaker 1>So it was a little bit of an interesting situation.

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<v Speaker 1>Phoenix still had a spark of promise. It wasn't glamorous,

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<v Speaker 1>but it was dry, sunny, full potential, especially for people

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<v Speaker 1>like Ruth trying to heal and trying to move on.

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<v Speaker 1>Ruth found work quickly, first as a governess for a

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<v Speaker 1>wealthy family called the Layfords, a job that suited her well.

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<v Speaker 1>She was polite, well spoken, and had the kind of

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<v Speaker 1>religious and moral image that upper class families liked. She

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<v Speaker 1>could hold her own in conversation, whether she was talking

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<v Speaker 1>to children or the Layfard's high society friends. Her quiet

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<v Speaker 1>charm earned her trusts and open doors. Now, Phoenix might

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<v Speaker 1>have been far from glamorous, especially compared to Los Angeles

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<v Speaker 1>or Chicago, but Ruth was still finding her place here.

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<v Speaker 2>Now.

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<v Speaker 1>It was through that job and her proximity to the

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<v Speaker 1>city's elites that Ruth met a man by the name

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<v Speaker 1>of John holleran aka nicknamed Happy Jack. John was in

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<v Speaker 1>his mid forties. He was successful, well connected, and carried

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<v Speaker 1>himself like a man who knew how to get what

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<v Speaker 1>he wanted. He was in the lumber industry, and he

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<v Speaker 1>had ties to politics, and was one of those people

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<v Speaker 1>who always seemed to be smiling and shaking hands, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>making sure that he had people in his pocket and

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<v Speaker 1>networking all across the board.

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<v Speaker 2>Right. Well, I never even had the when you were saying,

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<v Speaker 2>like her situation and her job and stuff, Yeah, that

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<v Speaker 2>would probably put her in a good position to meet someone. Hey,

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<v Speaker 2>I never thought of that even, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>It definitely would. Now, as far as John goes, his

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<v Speaker 1>nickname Happy Jack wasn't just for show. Apparently, he was

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<v Speaker 1>quite charismatic, popular, and by all accounts, quite the ladies man.

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<v Speaker 2>So he's a serial killer. Just kidding, kidding, kidding, kidding, Wow,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean that is how we lost time to start

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<v Speaker 2>our episodes.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh, you're not wrong. I'll give you that.

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<v Speaker 2>No, you're allowed to be that without being a serial killer. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>very bad joke.

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<v Speaker 1>Now John was married, but that didn't stop him from Florida.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>So they weren't like, you know, going into anything right

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<v Speaker 1>away or whatever, but he was. He was quite flirtatious

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<v Speaker 1>and but not to say that he just drew the

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<v Speaker 1>line at that. Now, Phoenix was still small enough that

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<v Speaker 1>people notice things, but big enough that folks who get

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<v Speaker 1>away with a lot, especially if they had power. John

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<v Speaker 1>moved in wealthy circles, and rumors about his affairs weren't

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<v Speaker 1>exactly whispered, so he was able to keep things pretty

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<v Speaker 1>hush hush. But it didn't take long for John and

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<v Speaker 1>Ruth to start an affair of their own. Despite still

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<v Speaker 1>being married to William, Ruth was pulled into John's charm

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<v Speaker 1>and probably by the sense of stability and sophistication he

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<v Speaker 1>represented as well. She kept in touch with her husband,

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<v Speaker 1>still called herself missus Judd, and supported William and his

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<v Speaker 1>emotional turmoil or whatever as he tried to get clean

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<v Speaker 1>in Los Angeles and rehab clinic, but her heart was

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<v Speaker 1>clearly drifting into a new direction. In Phoenix, Ruth lived

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<v Speaker 1>a double life. On paper, she was a dutiful wife

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<v Speaker 1>of a doctor recovering from illness. In reality, she was

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<v Speaker 1>now an independent young woman making her own way, spending

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<v Speaker 1>time with cities social elites and falling deeper into a

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<v Speaker 1>complicated relationship with a man who was far from available. Eventually,

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<v Speaker 1>Ruth left her job as a governess and took a

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<v Speaker 1>position as secretary at the Gunro Medical Clinic. It was

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<v Speaker 1>a good fit. She was organized, smart, personable, and at

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<v Speaker 1>the clinic she met Agnes Ann Leroy, a thirty two

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<v Speaker 1>year old X ray technician. She also met Hedvig aka

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<v Speaker 1>Sammy Samuelson, a twenty four year old teacher who'd moved

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<v Speaker 1>to Phoenix from Alaska after being diagnosed with tuberculosis. Now

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<v Speaker 1>Anne and Sammy were close, so close that people often

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<v Speaker 1>assumed they were a couple. In fact, though it was

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<v Speaker 1>never confirmed, what was clear was that they were inseparable,

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<v Speaker 1>and they shared a bungalow at two nine two nine

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<v Speaker 1>North Second Street, a modest, little cozy home owned by

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<v Speaker 1>none other than John holleran. Now, the three women, Row

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<v Speaker 1>and Sammy grew close. They were young, working, independent women

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<v Speaker 1>in a time when it was still a bit unusual.

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<v Speaker 1>They through parties, socialized and some of the most powerful

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<v Speaker 1>and well connected people and circles, and became known for

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<v Speaker 1>entertaining guests, many of whom were married men looking for

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<v Speaker 1>a little fun outside of their regular lives.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, I don't know if I like where this

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<v Speaker 2>is going.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Now, whether these gatherings ever crossed into something transactional

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<v Speaker 1>isn't actually confirmed, but some sources implied money occasionally changed hands.

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<v Speaker 1>Nothing was ever proven, but the implication is there.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, well, I mean it makes sense, right, yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, At one point and in Sammy even invited Ruth

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<v Speaker 1>to move in with them. It made sense they were

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<v Speaker 1>all spending time together anyways. But the arrangement didn't last long.

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<v Speaker 1>Tensions rose, mostly over minor things like cleaning space or

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<v Speaker 1>privacy whatever. Right, typically roommate bickering.

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<v Speaker 2>Title. Yeah, when you.

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<v Speaker 1>Get friends that you know, they haven't known each other

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<v Speaker 1>too long, that all of a sudden they're living in

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<v Speaker 1>close quarters and realize who each other really are. That

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<v Speaker 1>sort of thing.

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<v Speaker 2>The true cothers come out.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, not to say that. They were like, you know, like,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm no longer your friend friends off situation, it was

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<v Speaker 1>just like, fuck, this bitch is dirty and she doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>do her dishes like you know what I mean, that

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<v Speaker 1>sort of stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, you don't see those things right until you're

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<v Speaker 2>living together exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, Ruth eventually moved into an apartment just down the street.

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<v Speaker 1>They remain friends, but it became clear that living together

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<v Speaker 1>it was a mistake.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Still, they were part of that same circle. They worked together,

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<v Speaker 1>socialized together, and shared more than just laughter and gossip.

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<v Speaker 1>All three women had complicated relationships with John. In fact,

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<v Speaker 1>whether he had affairs with all of them or only some,

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<v Speaker 1>we don't exactly know. But what's clear is that John

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<v Speaker 1>was a common thread in their lives and maybe even

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<v Speaker 1>a wedge separating them, getting in between them at times.

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<v Speaker 2>This John guy, he's uh, I don't know. Oh. At

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<v Speaker 2>first I was like, oh, okay, he doesn't seem too bad,

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<v Speaker 2>but yeah, I'm not a fan of him.

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<v Speaker 1>No, he's kind of greasy, blind me as hell. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>yeah for sure. Now, at mid October nineteen thirty one,

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<v Speaker 1>whatever harmony existed between Ruth and and Sammy. It was

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<v Speaker 1>long gone. They were still socializing, still putting on the

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<v Speaker 1>occasional party, but the tension was growing harder to ignore.

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<v Speaker 1>Small arguments became regular, and beneath the surface, something else

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<v Speaker 1>was beginning to brew. Friday, October sixteenth was supposed to

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<v Speaker 1>be a regular night. Ruth had made plans to host

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<v Speaker 1>a dinner at her apartment with John and a younger

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<v Speaker 1>woman she knew from work named Lucille Moore. Now, Lucille

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<v Speaker 1>was from northern Arizona and John had mentioned planning a

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<v Speaker 1>hunting trip up that way, so Ruth thought Lucille might

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<v Speaker 1>be able to give him some tips in the area.

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<v Speaker 1>But John, ever the social butterfly, decided they should stop

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<v Speaker 1>by Anne in Sammy's bungalow first. There was a git

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<v Speaker 1>together happening, and he promised that he was going to

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<v Speaker 1>draw been Ruth hadn't planned on going. Anne had invited

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<v Speaker 1>her earlier, but she declined because she wanted to focus

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<v Speaker 1>on her evening with John and Lucille. But now, awkwardly,

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<v Speaker 1>there they were, Ruth and Lucille sitting in the car

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<v Speaker 1>while John slipped into into mingo inside to mingle sort

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<v Speaker 1>of thing. Anne and Sammy eventually came out to say hello.

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<v Speaker 1>Smiles were exchange, but Ruth since something was off. Maybe

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<v Speaker 1>it was how Anne looked at Lucille. Maybe it was

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<v Speaker 1>just a gut feeling. But whatever it was, Ruth felt unwelcome.

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<v Speaker 1>It was subtle, but it hit her hard. The night

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<v Speaker 1>went on, they left the bungalow and had dinner as planned,

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<v Speaker 1>but something had shifted and it all came to head

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<v Speaker 1>the next evening. On Saturday night, October seventeenth, Ruth stopped

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<v Speaker 1>by Anne in Sammy's place. She hadn't planned to, but

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<v Speaker 1>after John stood her up that evening, she was annoyed

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<v Speaker 1>and restless. She knew Anne and Sammy were having a

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<v Speaker 1>quiet Ridge night with friends. By the time Ruth arrived,

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<v Speaker 1>the friends had already left, but Anne and Sammy invited

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<v Speaker 1>her in to stay the night.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, here, I was thinking John was going to be

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<v Speaker 2>there or something.

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<v Speaker 1>According to Ruth, what started as a quiet evening spiraled

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<v Speaker 1>into an explosive argument, and this is where the stories

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00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:22.879
<v Speaker 1>start to split. In Ruth's version, Anne and Sammy confronted

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<v Speaker 1>her about Lucille, specifically about introducing her to John. Sammy,

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<v Speaker 1>who worked at the same clinic as Ruth had apparently

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<v Speaker 1>seen Lucille's medical chart and accused her of having syphilis,

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<v Speaker 1>implying Ruth had put John at risk. The confrontation quickly

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<v Speaker 1>turned personal, and leegendly threatened to tell Ruth's husband and

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<v Speaker 1>father about her behavior. Ruth, in turn, said that she'd

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<v Speaker 1>exposed Anne for breaking a piece of X ray equipment

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<v Speaker 1>at work. Harsh words escalated into screaming, accusations and chaos.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, holy shit.

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<v Speaker 1>Then Ruth claimed Sammy grabbed a gun. Okay in her statement,

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<v Speaker 1>Ruth's said she lunged for the weapon and the two

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<v Speaker 1>began struggling. A shot then went off, hitting Ruth in

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<v Speaker 1>the left hand. In a panic, she grabbed a bread

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<v Speaker 1>knife from the kitchen and slashed Sammy's shoulder. The fight continued.

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<v Speaker 1>Another shot hit Sammy in the chest and entered the

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<v Speaker 1>room holding an ironing board and struck Ruth. While yelling

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<v Speaker 1>at Sammy to shoot, Ruth fired again. She said she

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<v Speaker 1>didn't remember how many times, only that Ann collapsed and

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<v Speaker 1>Ruth passed out shortly after.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, that really did escalate.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, yeah, that's one version of what happened.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, police would later claim a very different scenario. According

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<v Speaker 1>to investigators, both Anne and Sammy were shot while laying

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<v Speaker 1>in bed, suggesting the attack came while they were asleep.

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<v Speaker 1>There was also no sign of forced entry or a

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<v Speaker 1>struggle in the kitchen, at least, no one nothing that

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<v Speaker 1>matched Ruth's chaotic story. What we do know for certain

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<v Speaker 1>is this, by the time the sun rose on Sunday,

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<v Speaker 1>October eighteenth, and Leroy and Sammy Samuelson were dead, Ruth

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<v Speaker 1>was injured and in shock and went home. That night.

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<v Speaker 1>She returned to the bungalow, this time, according to her,

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<v Speaker 1>with John Holleran with her. Sorry, I kind of like

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00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:24.079
<v Speaker 1>left that weird. I was like, I should say, like more,

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<v Speaker 1>But then I just like, no, I'm going to stop there,

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<v Speaker 1>And in my head I just had this internal argument

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<v Speaker 1>of what I was going to do next. So, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>she returned with John.

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<v Speaker 2>Just killed two individuals, and now she's went back to

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<v Speaker 2>her place with John.

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<v Speaker 1>No, she killed two individuals and she's returning back to

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<v Speaker 1>the scene of the crime with John.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh shit, Okay, yeah, wow with John. Okay, John's getting

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<v Speaker 2>involved a little bit more. This guy just makes his rounds.

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<v Speaker 1>Does he ever?

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<v Speaker 2>Now.

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<v Speaker 1>In her story, Ruth said that she was prepared to

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<v Speaker 1>call her husband for help, but John talked her out

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<v Speaker 1>of it. He said he'd handle things, so Ruth claimed.

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<v Speaker 1>John picked up Sammy's body, carried it into Anne's bedroom.

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<v Speaker 1>He wiped down surfaces, started cleaning the scene. He even

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<v Speaker 1>called a doctor Brown, a contact of his, to patch

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00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:14.599
<v Speaker 1>up Ruth's injured hand. When the doctor didn't answer, Ruth

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<v Speaker 1>bandaged it herself because she had been shot in the hand.

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<v Speaker 2>Remember from the tustle, Yeah, I do remember that now.

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<v Speaker 1>John Legley went into the garage and found a large

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<v Speaker 1>black trunk, then telling Ruth to go home, he said

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<v Speaker 1>that he'd deal with the mess.

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<v Speaker 2>She said.

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<v Speaker 1>He promised to dispose of the bodies and make sure

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<v Speaker 1>nothing traced back to her. But when she returned the

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<v Speaker 1>next day, the story changed. The house was clean, the

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<v Speaker 1>bodies were still there, and now the plan John told her.

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<v Speaker 2>Was this.

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<v Speaker 1>Quote, You're taking the trunks to Los Angeles. So by

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<v Speaker 1>the morning of Sunday, October eighteenth, nineteen thirty one, Juth,

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<v Speaker 1>sorry Ruth Judd, was a woman with a bandaged hand,

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<v Speaker 1>a suitcase full of dis memberments, and a plan that

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<v Speaker 1>was falling apart in real time because she followed through

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<v Speaker 1>with what she claimed was John's new plan to take

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<v Speaker 1>these bodies to LA by the train. The logic, if

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<v Speaker 1>you can call it, that was that the desert was

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<v Speaker 1>too risky. Highway patrol officers were on high alert and

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<v Speaker 1>dumping bodies out there might get them.

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<v Speaker 2>Both caught, but traveling with them is a better idea on.

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<v Speaker 1>A packed train, yes, apparently.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, Well, I also have to say, like John must

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<v Speaker 2>have a real thing with this Ruth chick, because for

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<v Speaker 2>him to because if he had a thing with these

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00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:40.400
<v Speaker 2>other two, but he's like so easily able to cover

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00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:43.119
<v Speaker 2>this up for her and stuff, right and help. I

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<v Speaker 2>feel like there was really something going on between like

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<v Speaker 2>John and Ruth that was bigger, because why the fuck

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<v Speaker 2>would he care to help her? Really?

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<v Speaker 1>True? That's a good point. Actually, that's a good point

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<v Speaker 1>and a good point to hang on to through this story.

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<v Speaker 2>In fact.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, hold on to that perspective because that kind of

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00:20:59.799 --> 00:21:04.160
<v Speaker 1>makes some sense. Okay, So John allegedly instructed Ruth to

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<v Speaker 1>take the bodies out of state, of course, right. He

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00:21:06.759 --> 00:21:09.240
<v Speaker 1>even promised someone would be waiting for her at the

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00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:12.160
<v Speaker 1>LA train station to handle the luggage once she arrived.

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00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:17.240
<v Speaker 1>Ruth complied with what he said. She called a delivery company,

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<v Speaker 1>Lightning Delivery, to help move the trunk from Anne and

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00:21:20.440 --> 00:21:24.039
<v Speaker 1>Sammy's bungalow to her apartment, but when the delivery men

398
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<v Speaker 1>showed up, they found the trunk too too heavy, far

399
00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:31.160
<v Speaker 1>too heavy to carry. One weighed around two hundred and

400
00:21:31.240 --> 00:21:34.400
<v Speaker 1>twenty five pounds and the other was over one hundred pounds.

401
00:21:36.039 --> 00:21:38.039
<v Speaker 1>Ruth quickened her feet, told them that the trunks were

402
00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:41.519
<v Speaker 1>filled with her husband's medical books. Somehow she convinced them

403
00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:43.839
<v Speaker 1>to help move everything anyways.

404
00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:46.440
<v Speaker 2>Okay, well, yeah, I like those trunks from back in

405
00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:49.400
<v Speaker 2>the day are were heavy. Oh yeah, Like it's amazing

406
00:21:49.400 --> 00:21:51.880
<v Speaker 2>because we have two of them, I think because we

407
00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:55.240
<v Speaker 2>just like collecting like vintagey type things, yeap, And it's

408
00:21:55.359 --> 00:21:58.799
<v Speaker 2>unbelievable that that's how people traveled and shit like it's

409
00:21:58.920 --> 00:22:01.319
<v Speaker 2>just now we have like these suitcases on wheels and

410
00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:03.799
<v Speaker 2>we shouldn't complain really at all.

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00:22:04.119 --> 00:22:07.319
<v Speaker 1>No, And honestly, like our the stuff we travel with too,

412
00:22:08.440 --> 00:22:11.640
<v Speaker 1>Like we travel lighter because because I mean technology is

413
00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:14.000
<v Speaker 1>a little bit better, we have like better things for traveling.

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00:22:14.599 --> 00:22:16.079
<v Speaker 1>Like say, if someone back then is going to take

415
00:22:16.079 --> 00:22:19.440
<v Speaker 1>a curling iron, it's much heavier and bigger. Than today's.

416
00:22:19.799 --> 00:22:23.640
<v Speaker 1>But also back then, if you're traveling, you're probably traveling

417
00:22:23.720 --> 00:22:27.000
<v Speaker 1>for longer because it's not like a quick flight to

418
00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:29.359
<v Speaker 1>Mexico and then back a week later. It was like

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<v Speaker 1>you're traveling and you're going to go live in Mexico

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<v Speaker 1>for six months. Situation.

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00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:36.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I don't think would. They wouldn't have had curling

422
00:22:36.359 --> 00:22:40.920
<v Speaker 2>irons back then. Oh yeah, there's curling irons seriously, like okay, yeah,

423
00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:41.960
<v Speaker 2>curlers or whatever.

424
00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:44.440
<v Speaker 1>No, they'd be like a literal, like solid like iron bar,

425
00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:46.599
<v Speaker 1>a little curler or whatever. They like, heat it up

426
00:22:46.599 --> 00:22:48.759
<v Speaker 1>with like a candle flame and like it it works,

427
00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:51.319
<v Speaker 1>just like a curling iron. Oh shit, that's why it's

428
00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:54.400
<v Speaker 1>called a curling iron. I guess because it was made

429
00:22:54.440 --> 00:22:54.880
<v Speaker 1>of iron.

430
00:22:55.160 --> 00:22:57.400
<v Speaker 2>Huh wow. That would have take forever too.

431
00:22:57.680 --> 00:23:02.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Now, that night, alone in her apartment, Ruth opened

432
00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:05.720
<v Speaker 1>the trunks. According to her later statements, it was only

433
00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:10.440
<v Speaker 1>then that she realized Sammy's body had been dismembered. Anne

434
00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:13.319
<v Speaker 1>was still intact, but Sammy had been cut into multiple pieces.

435
00:23:13.880 --> 00:23:16.279
<v Speaker 1>Ruth claimed that she had nothing to do with the dismemberment,

436
00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:19.079
<v Speaker 1>that when she left the bodies with John, they were whole.

437
00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:23.440
<v Speaker 1>Now Sammy's torso, limbs, and head were divided between various

438
00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:28.799
<v Speaker 1>suitcases a hat box. It was, in Ruth's words, horrifying

439
00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:30.000
<v Speaker 1>a mess.

440
00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:31.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

441
00:23:31.400 --> 00:23:35.640
<v Speaker 1>Still, she repacked everything, stealed her nerves, and prepared for

442
00:23:35.680 --> 00:23:39.640
<v Speaker 1>the trip. The next morning, on October nineteenth, Ruth called

443
00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:42.920
<v Speaker 1>her landlord and asked for a ride to Phoenix Union Station.

444
00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:45.880
<v Speaker 1>He brought his son along to help with the massive,

445
00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:50.119
<v Speaker 1>suspiciously heavy luggage. Again, Ruth told them that the bags

446
00:23:50.119 --> 00:23:54.680
<v Speaker 1>contained medical material and they didn't ask any questions. At

447
00:23:54.680 --> 00:23:58.319
<v Speaker 1>the station, the baggage clerk flagged her trunk as excess weight,

448
00:23:58.599 --> 00:24:00.519
<v Speaker 1>and Ruth had to pay an extra fee four dollars

449
00:24:00.519 --> 00:24:02.799
<v Speaker 1>and forty eight cents, which was a significant amount of

450
00:24:02.799 --> 00:24:05.920
<v Speaker 1>money at the time, but she paid it. Then she

451
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:09.400
<v Speaker 1>boarded the Golden State Limited, an overnight train headed for

452
00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:14.480
<v Speaker 1>Los Angeles. Somewhere in the bustle of the passengers, all

453
00:24:14.519 --> 00:24:18.079
<v Speaker 1>the chaos in whatever was going on in the train,

454
00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:22.400
<v Speaker 1>Ruth sat quietly with two murdered victims packed beneath her feet.

455
00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:28.480
<v Speaker 1>She wasn't invisible, though the train's baggage handler, HJ. Mapps,

456
00:24:28.519 --> 00:24:31.880
<v Speaker 1>noticed something was off. The smell coming from Ruth's trunks

457
00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:36.960
<v Speaker 1>was overwhelming, and dark fluid had begun to seep from

458
00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:41.359
<v Speaker 1>the corners. He guessed it was probably raw deer meat inside,

459
00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:44.599
<v Speaker 1>not uncommon at the time for hunters smuggling venison across

460
00:24:44.599 --> 00:24:47.640
<v Speaker 1>state lines. Still, it was suspicious enough that when the

461
00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:52.240
<v Speaker 1>train traveled to La Maps notified district baggage agent Arthur Anderson.

462
00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:56.319
<v Speaker 1>And Anderson took one look, one sniff, and he too,

463
00:24:56.440 --> 00:25:00.559
<v Speaker 1>knew something was wrong. Meanwhile, Ruth had made her into

464
00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:02.759
<v Speaker 1>the city, expecting someone to meet her at the station,

465
00:25:03.880 --> 00:25:06.640
<v Speaker 1>just like John had promised her right However, no one

466
00:25:06.680 --> 00:25:10.559
<v Speaker 1>showed up. With no plan or no backup, Ruth took

467
00:25:10.559 --> 00:25:13.960
<v Speaker 1>a trolley to her brother, Burton mckinnel's dorm at the

468
00:25:14.039 --> 00:25:17.359
<v Speaker 1>University of California. She told him she needed help retrieving

469
00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:20.960
<v Speaker 1>her luggage, that it was urgent. Burton was unaware of

470
00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:23.920
<v Speaker 1>what was really going on and agreed to drive her

471
00:25:23.960 --> 00:25:28.039
<v Speaker 1>back now. When they arrived, the district baggage agent Arthur

472
00:25:28.119 --> 00:25:30.400
<v Speaker 1>Anderson was there waiting for them.

473
00:25:30.519 --> 00:25:30.799
<v Speaker 2>Mm hm.

474
00:25:31.400 --> 00:25:33.759
<v Speaker 1>He questioned Ruth about the smell and the leaking fluid.

475
00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:37.880
<v Speaker 1>She claimed not to smell anything. Burton laughed and said

476
00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:44.200
<v Speaker 1>how could she not notice? The stench was unmistakable. Anderson

477
00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:46.039
<v Speaker 1>demanded that Ruth open the trunks.

478
00:25:46.200 --> 00:25:46.920
<v Speaker 2>Oh shit.

479
00:25:47.559 --> 00:25:49.839
<v Speaker 1>She fumbled with her purse, hands shaking, and then she

480
00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:52.880
<v Speaker 1>said that she didn't have the keys, her husband had them.

481
00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:58.440
<v Speaker 1>That's when things unraveled. Ruth grabbed Burton's arms and practically

482
00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:02.200
<v Speaker 1>dragged him into the car. As they drove off, Burton,

483
00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:05.319
<v Speaker 1>half joking, half nervous, asked what was really in those trunks.

484
00:26:06.039 --> 00:26:10.720
<v Speaker 1>Her response, it was justified. I had no choice.

485
00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:15.799
<v Speaker 2>Oh man, yeah, He's like, what the hell did I

486
00:26:15.880 --> 00:26:17.160
<v Speaker 2>just get myself involved in.

487
00:26:17.960 --> 00:26:21.720
<v Speaker 1>At the next red light, Ruth opened the car door

488
00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:24.680
<v Speaker 1>and took off, vanishing into the crowd.

489
00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:26.319
<v Speaker 2>Oh okay.

490
00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:29.440
<v Speaker 1>Back at the station, Anderson waited a while longer before

491
00:26:29.480 --> 00:26:33.400
<v Speaker 1>calling the La Police Department. By the time the officers arrived,

492
00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:37.000
<v Speaker 1>they were greeted by a stench so foul it was

493
00:26:37.079 --> 00:26:42.000
<v Speaker 1>already drawing attention from other passengers. With Ruth gone, police

494
00:26:42.039 --> 00:26:45.720
<v Speaker 1>picked the locks to the trunks, and inside they found

495
00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:49.839
<v Speaker 1>clothing soaked in blood, and beneath it dismembered body parts

496
00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:53.759
<v Speaker 1>of the two women stuffed inside. The larger trunk contained

497
00:26:53.799 --> 00:26:57.119
<v Speaker 1>Anne's full body, the smaller one held Sammy cut into

498
00:26:57.160 --> 00:27:02.000
<v Speaker 1>pieces in other luggage, abandoned the women's washroom. They found

499
00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:05.599
<v Speaker 1>her remains, the remains of more body parts, along with

500
00:27:05.640 --> 00:27:09.920
<v Speaker 1>a twenty five caliber Cult automatic, a box of Winchester cartridges,

501
00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:15.359
<v Speaker 1>and a surgeon's instrument bag. The autopsies told their own

502
00:27:15.559 --> 00:27:19.640
<v Speaker 1>version of the events. Anne Leroy had been shot once

503
00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:23.920
<v Speaker 1>in the head, Sammy Samuelson had four bullet wounds, one

504
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:26.359
<v Speaker 1>in the shoulder, one in the chest, one in the temple,

505
00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:30.240
<v Speaker 1>and a wound to her hand. One thing was clear, though,

506
00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:33.160
<v Speaker 1>from all of this, this wasn't deer meat.

507
00:27:34.359 --> 00:27:37.000
<v Speaker 2>You don't say yeah, I do say nothing.

508
00:27:38.279 --> 00:27:41.400
<v Speaker 1>By the evening of October nineteenth, nineteen thirty one, word

509
00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:45.319
<v Speaker 1>of the gruesome discovery at the LA train station had

510
00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:49.440
<v Speaker 1>spread like wildfire. This wasn't a simple murder case. It

511
00:27:49.559 --> 00:27:54.640
<v Speaker 1>was shocking, cinematic and downright and bizarre. Newspapers ran with

512
00:27:54.680 --> 00:27:57.759
<v Speaker 1>it immediately, and within twenty four hours, headlines across the

513
00:27:57.759 --> 00:28:02.400
<v Speaker 1>country were blaring with the name Winnie Ruth jud Ah.

514
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:06.039
<v Speaker 2>She would have been better off just to deal with

515
00:28:06.039 --> 00:28:07.200
<v Speaker 2>this situation.

516
00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:12.480
<v Speaker 1>Herself, probably so. As I mentioned, Ruth had now disappeared

517
00:28:12.519 --> 00:28:15.359
<v Speaker 1>into Los Angeles after slipping away from her brother. She

518
00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:18.519
<v Speaker 1>was alone in the city. She didn't know the city

519
00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:20.799
<v Speaker 1>very well, and she was bleeding from her hand that

520
00:28:20.880 --> 00:28:23.319
<v Speaker 1>had bullet wound in it, And she was carrying all

521
00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:26.440
<v Speaker 1>this guilt, or, depending on which version of the story

522
00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:29.240
<v Speaker 1>you believe, the burden of the two dead women. But

523
00:28:29.400 --> 00:28:32.480
<v Speaker 1>for four days she stayed hidden. Where exactly she went

524
00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:35.039
<v Speaker 1>during that time remains unclear, but what we do know

525
00:28:35.119 --> 00:28:38.559
<v Speaker 1>is how it ended. On October twenty third, Ruth was

526
00:28:38.599 --> 00:28:42.079
<v Speaker 1>found hiding in a funeral home. How or why she

527
00:28:42.160 --> 00:28:44.400
<v Speaker 1>chose that place is still debated. Some say she was

528
00:28:44.440 --> 00:28:47.400
<v Speaker 1>seeking comfort near the dead, Others say she was simply

529
00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:49.359
<v Speaker 1>desperate and thought it would be the last place anyone

530
00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:53.000
<v Speaker 1>would look. According to some reports, she was hungry, tired,

531
00:28:53.079 --> 00:28:56.799
<v Speaker 1>and emotionally spent. What finally convinced her to come out

532
00:28:56.839 --> 00:29:00.640
<v Speaker 1>of hiding was an emotional plea from her husband, doctor

533
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:04.160
<v Speaker 1>William Judd, who was still living in Los Angeles at

534
00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:08.079
<v Speaker 1>the time. Despite their separation, he had stood by her,

535
00:29:08.279 --> 00:29:11.279
<v Speaker 1>and it was his influence that reportedly encouraged her to

536
00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:17.200
<v Speaker 1>actually surrender. But her capture was just the beginning. The

537
00:29:17.240 --> 00:29:21.640
<v Speaker 1>press had already dubbed her the trunk Murderous, also the

538
00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:25.559
<v Speaker 1>Blonde Butcher, and even the Tiger woman. These weren't just

539
00:29:25.599 --> 00:29:29.000
<v Speaker 1>catchy headlines, they were designed to sell papers. This was

540
00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:33.079
<v Speaker 1>a time when sensationalism ruled journalism, and Ruth's case had

541
00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:38.960
<v Speaker 1>everything editors wanted. Yeah, there was scandal, betrayal, female rage,

542
00:29:39.240 --> 00:29:43.519
<v Speaker 1>a bloody mystery package inside a leaking trunk on a train.

543
00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:48.519
<v Speaker 1>Within hours of her arrest, reporters and photographers descended on

544
00:29:48.680 --> 00:29:50.559
<v Speaker 1>Phoenix where the murders had taken place.

545
00:29:51.279 --> 00:29:53.480
<v Speaker 2>People would just like eat that story up.

546
00:29:53.759 --> 00:29:56.599
<v Speaker 1>They did. Phoenix basically basically turned into like a crime

547
00:29:56.640 --> 00:29:59.160
<v Speaker 1>scene attraction at that point. It was like a true

548
00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:01.839
<v Speaker 1>crime like fa ground because people were flocking so hard

549
00:30:01.880 --> 00:30:04.119
<v Speaker 1>to see and get like a piece of this story.

550
00:30:04.920 --> 00:30:07.119
<v Speaker 1>So when police returned to the small bungalow at two

551
00:30:07.240 --> 00:30:09.839
<v Speaker 1>nine two nine North Second Street, they made what can

552
00:30:09.880 --> 00:30:14.759
<v Speaker 1>only be described as a terrible mistake. They let journalists

553
00:30:14.799 --> 00:30:18.319
<v Speaker 1>and curious neighbors into the house at the same time.

554
00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:21.480
<v Speaker 2>No, yeah why.

555
00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:27.759
<v Speaker 1>The result, of course, the crime scene was compromised beyond recognition.

556
00:30:28.400 --> 00:30:30.920
<v Speaker 1>Evidence was trampled, blood was smeared, and worst of all,

557
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:33.559
<v Speaker 1>the landlord sees the opportunity to make a quick buck.

558
00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:36.640
<v Speaker 1>He placed a newspaper ad offering people the chance to

559
00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:39.200
<v Speaker 1>tour the murder house for ten cents per person.

560
00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:41.920
<v Speaker 2>Oh wow, that's an entrepreneur and a half.

561
00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:46.200
<v Speaker 1>Right, Hundreds lined up to see the quote whole house

562
00:30:46.240 --> 00:30:51.000
<v Speaker 1>of horrors. According to Ruth's defense lawyer, most of the

563
00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:52.960
<v Speaker 1>county came through that house.

564
00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:54.119
<v Speaker 2>Wow.

565
00:30:54.400 --> 00:30:57.279
<v Speaker 1>Whatever physical clues may have helped paint a clear picture

566
00:30:57.319 --> 00:31:01.319
<v Speaker 1>of what happened was absolutely destroyed by the public and

567
00:31:01.359 --> 00:31:02.319
<v Speaker 1>their curiosity.

568
00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:07.359
<v Speaker 2>That's so bizarre that I don't know just hearing that, right,

569
00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:10.039
<v Speaker 2>like that would just never be able to happen nowadays.

570
00:31:10.279 --> 00:31:13.599
<v Speaker 2>I mean, crime scenes get destroyed, mind you, But I

571
00:31:13.640 --> 00:31:15.839
<v Speaker 2>mean like where you can charge your feed for like

572
00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:19.359
<v Speaker 2>to walk through this fucking house. I mean, I guess

573
00:31:19.400 --> 00:31:20.720
<v Speaker 2>actually does kind of happen.

574
00:31:22.039 --> 00:31:25.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you can go stay at like an accepuse.

575
00:31:25.240 --> 00:31:28.119
<v Speaker 2>But I'm imagining that crime scene probably like hadn't even

576
00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:29.559
<v Speaker 2>really been cleaned up or anything.

577
00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:35.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a little bit great. So, And honestly, I'm

578
00:31:35.119 --> 00:31:36.880
<v Speaker 1>not going to name any names or anything in this

579
00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:40.200
<v Speaker 1>because yeah, but there was a situation a few years

580
00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:43.920
<v Speaker 1>ago where there was an explosion on a pipeline north

581
00:31:43.920 --> 00:31:48.119
<v Speaker 1>of our city, and there was an individual who owned

582
00:31:48.200 --> 00:31:52.759
<v Speaker 1>property near that explosion, and they were offering tours through

583
00:31:53.079 --> 00:31:56.680
<v Speaker 1>horse trails over to the explosion site. They were trying

584
00:31:56.720 --> 00:31:59.599
<v Speaker 1>to Oh shit, they got shut down pretty quick, but

585
00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:02.359
<v Speaker 1>they tried to. They tried to literally do the exact

586
00:32:02.359 --> 00:32:02.799
<v Speaker 1>same thing.

587
00:32:03.240 --> 00:32:06.119
<v Speaker 2>So maybe it's maybe things haven't changed as much as

588
00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:06.640
<v Speaker 2>I'm thinking.

589
00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:09.000
<v Speaker 1>I think the times have changed. I just don't think

590
00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:09.640
<v Speaker 1>people have.

591
00:32:09.880 --> 00:32:12.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it makes any sense. I mean it's a I guess,

592
00:32:12.759 --> 00:32:16.359
<v Speaker 2>slightly more civilized and like the things that you can

593
00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:20.480
<v Speaker 2>go and stay at and see now, right, because the

594
00:32:20.519 --> 00:32:23.319
<v Speaker 2>crime scenes are cleaned up and stuff, and it's just

595
00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:25.640
<v Speaker 2>like the story you have now exactly.

596
00:32:25.759 --> 00:32:28.880
<v Speaker 1>It's it's after the fact. It's I'm standing in like

597
00:32:29.119 --> 00:32:32.839
<v Speaker 1>in the very same spot. It's honestly very similar. It's

598
00:32:32.920 --> 00:32:35.720
<v Speaker 1>just a matter of like, oh, there's the blood splatter.

599
00:32:35.839 --> 00:32:39.200
<v Speaker 1>It's yeah, here's where the blood splatter was. It's the

600
00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:44.640
<v Speaker 1>same but not the same. Yeah, it's the same but different.

601
00:32:44.920 --> 00:32:45.559
<v Speaker 2>Interesting.

602
00:32:47.119 --> 00:32:49.559
<v Speaker 1>Now, in the midst of the media circus, police finally

603
00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:52.680
<v Speaker 1>got a full confession, or at least a version of one,

604
00:32:52.920 --> 00:32:56.400
<v Speaker 1>from Ruth. She admitted to killing Anne and Sammy, but

605
00:32:56.480 --> 00:33:00.640
<v Speaker 1>insisted it wasn't premeditated. According to her statement, the murders

606
00:33:00.680 --> 00:33:03.400
<v Speaker 1>happened during a heated argument in the early hours of

607
00:33:03.400 --> 00:33:07.480
<v Speaker 1>October seventeenth. The fight, she said, started over accusations that

608
00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:10.559
<v Speaker 1>Ruth had introduced John to another woman who might have

609
00:33:10.599 --> 00:33:15.160
<v Speaker 1>had syphilis, a detail and Sammy had supposedly learned from

610
00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:19.559
<v Speaker 1>work right. Ruth claimed, Sammy pulled a gun on her first,

611
00:33:20.119 --> 00:33:23.000
<v Speaker 1>and in the struggle, Ruth was shot in the hand.

612
00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:26.200
<v Speaker 1>Then she grabbed the bread knife stabbed Sammy in the shoulder,

613
00:33:26.480 --> 00:33:29.400
<v Speaker 1>and as a fight escalated, more shots were fired. One

614
00:33:29.480 --> 00:33:32.079
<v Speaker 1>hit Sammy in the chest, another struck and when she

615
00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:34.559
<v Speaker 1>came after Ruth with an ironing board, Ruth said she

616
00:33:34.599 --> 00:33:39.000
<v Speaker 1>fired blindly and then blacked out. When she came to,

617
00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:42.160
<v Speaker 1>both of her friends were dead.

618
00:33:43.480 --> 00:33:43.880
<v Speaker 2>Wow.

619
00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:47.920
<v Speaker 1>From there, her story followed a path we now know. Well.

620
00:33:48.519 --> 00:33:51.960
<v Speaker 1>John came to help. He moved the bodies, he fetched

621
00:33:51.960 --> 00:33:54.519
<v Speaker 1>the trunks, He told her to stay quiet, and when

622
00:33:54.519 --> 00:33:56.759
<v Speaker 1>it came time to actually take the bodies to La,

623
00:33:57.039 --> 00:34:00.319
<v Speaker 1>he vanished, leaving her to clean up the mess because hey,

624
00:34:00.519 --> 00:34:02.480
<v Speaker 1>someone was supposed to be there waiting for her, all

625
00:34:02.519 --> 00:34:04.519
<v Speaker 1>this sort of stuff. Nope, none of that.

626
00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:08.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So honest like left her exactly.

627
00:34:08.480 --> 00:34:10.599
<v Speaker 1>It honestly sounds almost like a setup.

628
00:34:11.159 --> 00:34:14.280
<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, he went about making this situation way worse

629
00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:16.440
<v Speaker 2>because also, why the fuck was he cutting up the

630
00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:18.440
<v Speaker 2>body and stuff. That's the kind of sketch when you

631
00:34:18.440 --> 00:34:22.199
<v Speaker 2>think about that, and then just okay, go do this,

632
00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:24.159
<v Speaker 2>take this away and then just done.

633
00:34:24.519 --> 00:34:28.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, like what the now? Even as she confessed to murder,

634
00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:32.280
<v Speaker 1>Ruth painted herself as a woman who you was used

635
00:34:32.280 --> 00:34:37.199
<v Speaker 1>and discarded by a powerful man. Winnie's sorry, Winnie Ruth Judds,

636
00:34:37.320 --> 00:34:40.480
<v Speaker 1>which is her full name. Her trial began on January nineteenth,

637
00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:43.880
<v Speaker 1>nineteen thirty two, just three months after the murder. The

638
00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:48.840
<v Speaker 1>courtroom in Maricopa County was packed, spectators lined up outside,

639
00:34:48.960 --> 00:34:53.480
<v Speaker 1>newsman jolted for seats, and the country held its breath.

640
00:34:54.320 --> 00:34:58.159
<v Speaker 1>But this wasn't just the dramatic trial of two victims. No,

641
00:34:58.360 --> 00:35:01.239
<v Speaker 1>Ruth was only being tried for the murder of Ann

642
00:35:01.320 --> 00:35:08.280
<v Speaker 1>Lee Roy, not Sammy Samuelson, and not for dismemberment. Okay,

643
00:35:09.320 --> 00:35:12.559
<v Speaker 1>it seems strange, considering Sammy's remains were found in bits

644
00:35:12.559 --> 00:35:15.719
<v Speaker 1>and pieces packed into multiple suitcases. But Anne's body had

645
00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:19.440
<v Speaker 1>been found intact, and that alone made her case easier

646
00:35:19.480 --> 00:35:23.880
<v Speaker 1>for prosecution to pin down. Prosecutors wanted a conviction, and

647
00:35:23.880 --> 00:35:26.199
<v Speaker 1>they figured they had the best shot if they focused

648
00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:28.079
<v Speaker 1>solely on Anne.

649
00:35:29.760 --> 00:35:31.920
<v Speaker 2>Huh. Okay, I guess that kind of makes sense.

650
00:35:32.280 --> 00:35:34.719
<v Speaker 1>Kind of yeah, I mean, especially when you look at

651
00:35:34.719 --> 00:35:37.719
<v Speaker 1>the fact that, like, okay, the crime scene was destroyed.

652
00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:40.800
<v Speaker 1>To evidence that you have is minimal, they're lacking it.

653
00:35:40.920 --> 00:35:41.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

654
00:35:41.760 --> 00:35:44.760
<v Speaker 1>Now, her defense team didn't argue self defense. Instead, they

655
00:35:44.800 --> 00:35:46.760
<v Speaker 1>went with insanity.

656
00:35:48.400 --> 00:35:51.280
<v Speaker 2>Okay, I've seen that happen before many a times.

657
00:35:51.719 --> 00:35:55.320
<v Speaker 1>This was a strategic move. Ruth's behavior, her shifting story,

658
00:35:55.400 --> 00:35:58.599
<v Speaker 1>her emotional breakdowns, and the bizarre train ride made the

659
00:35:58.599 --> 00:36:01.679
<v Speaker 1>claim quite believable and fact Her attorney said that she

660
00:36:01.719 --> 00:36:03.679
<v Speaker 1>was mentally unwell at the time of the killings and

661
00:36:03.719 --> 00:36:06.960
<v Speaker 1>that she had no control over her actions. To back

662
00:36:07.039 --> 00:36:09.920
<v Speaker 1>this up, they pointed to her gunshot wound, her exhausted,

663
00:36:09.960 --> 00:36:15.239
<v Speaker 1>fragile appearance, and her history of illness. Ruth didn't testify.

664
00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:19.280
<v Speaker 1>She sat silently, looking small and pale, in the defendant's seat,

665
00:36:19.400 --> 00:36:22.679
<v Speaker 1>letting the case play out around her. The prosecution had

666
00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:26.440
<v Speaker 1>a much more straightforward version. Ruth, they said, was a

667
00:36:26.480 --> 00:36:30.039
<v Speaker 1>woman driven by jealousy. They claimed she was furious over

668
00:36:30.119 --> 00:36:33.920
<v Speaker 1>John Halleran's involvement with Anne and Sammy, possibly even romantically.

669
00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:38.880
<v Speaker 1>According to them, Ruth felt threatened, isolated, and vengeful, and

670
00:36:38.920 --> 00:36:42.079
<v Speaker 1>so she planned the murders, executed them while Sammy and

671
00:36:42.119 --> 00:36:45.159
<v Speaker 1>Anne were sleeping, and even shot herself in the hand

672
00:36:45.199 --> 00:36:48.280
<v Speaker 1>to stage the appearance of a struggle. They told the

673
00:36:48.360 --> 00:36:51.559
<v Speaker 1>jury that she was a cold blooded killer and that

674
00:36:51.599 --> 00:36:56.960
<v Speaker 1>the murderers weren't impulsive, they were premeditated. But there were

675
00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:02.599
<v Speaker 1>problems with their story as well, and this theory. The

676
00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:06.480
<v Speaker 1>officers on the scene said the mattress was missing when

677
00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:10.519
<v Speaker 1>they arrived at the bungalow. One was later found dumped

678
00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:13.400
<v Speaker 1>in a field with no bloodstains at all. The other

679
00:37:13.599 --> 00:37:16.920
<v Speaker 1>was never recovered. This weakened the claim that the women

680
00:37:16.960 --> 00:37:19.800
<v Speaker 1>were shot in their beds. Still, the jury took two

681
00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:24.360
<v Speaker 1>hours to reach their verdict. Ruth Judd was found guilty

682
00:37:24.599 --> 00:37:28.400
<v Speaker 1>of first degree murder and the judge sentenced her to

683
00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:29.920
<v Speaker 1>death by hanging.

684
00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:36.000
<v Speaker 2>Oh right, shit, kind of forgot about like the penalties

685
00:37:36.039 --> 00:37:37.400
<v Speaker 2>you can get back then, I guess.

686
00:37:37.719 --> 00:37:41.880
<v Speaker 1>Yep Oooh. Now, later members of the jury revealed something shocking.

687
00:37:41.960 --> 00:37:45.440
<v Speaker 1>They had all recommended life in prison, not death, so

688
00:37:45.480 --> 00:37:49.079
<v Speaker 1>the judge overturned their recommendation and went straight to the

689
00:37:49.079 --> 00:37:49.800
<v Speaker 1>death penalty.

690
00:37:50.039 --> 00:37:51.280
<v Speaker 2>Okay, yep.

691
00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:55.199
<v Speaker 1>Meanwhile, there was whispers about John Holleran, and they were

692
00:37:55.199 --> 00:37:59.000
<v Speaker 1>getting louder. Ruth had pointed to him again and again

693
00:37:59.159 --> 00:38:02.039
<v Speaker 1>in her statements, saying he helped her with the bodies,

694
00:38:02.519 --> 00:38:06.119
<v Speaker 1>told her to stay quiet, and ultimately abandoned her. And

695
00:38:06.199 --> 00:38:11.679
<v Speaker 1>finally the pressure became too much. John Happy Jack Holleran

696
00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:15.960
<v Speaker 1>finally found himself in court. It was nineteen thirty three,

697
00:38:16.039 --> 00:38:19.039
<v Speaker 1>a year after Ruth's conviction, and the State of Arizona

698
00:38:19.079 --> 00:38:22.719
<v Speaker 1>had officially charged him as an accomplice to murder, and

699
00:38:22.840 --> 00:38:27.360
<v Speaker 1>John Holleran finally was inside that courtroom.

700
00:38:26.960 --> 00:38:28.760
<v Speaker 2>Okay, because I was kind of like, why the hell

701
00:38:28.840 --> 00:38:30.719
<v Speaker 2>is this guy just getting away with all the shit?

702
00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:31.559
<v Speaker 2>Scoff free.

703
00:38:32.039 --> 00:38:34.360
<v Speaker 1>Ruth said repeatedly that he was at the bungalow after

704
00:38:34.360 --> 00:38:36.719
<v Speaker 1>the murders, that he helped move the bodies and even

705
00:38:36.760 --> 00:38:40.119
<v Speaker 1>provided the trunks to that was used to hide the remains.

706
00:38:40.639 --> 00:38:42.920
<v Speaker 1>She claimed he convinced her not to go to police,

707
00:38:43.400 --> 00:38:45.760
<v Speaker 1>He promised to take care of everything, then vanish the

708
00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:50.119
<v Speaker 1>second everything went wrong. This trial, however, would go very

709
00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:55.559
<v Speaker 1>different than Ruth's trial. This time, Ruth did testify. In fact,

710
00:38:55.639 --> 00:38:58.360
<v Speaker 1>she spent three days on the stand describing how John

711
00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:00.840
<v Speaker 1>had come up to the house, I saw what happened,

712
00:39:00.960 --> 00:39:03.679
<v Speaker 1>helped orchestrate the cover up. She told the courts. He

713
00:39:03.760 --> 00:39:06.960
<v Speaker 1>moved Sammy's bodies to end bodies. Sammy's body there, we

714
00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:10.199
<v Speaker 1>go to Anne's bedroom, brought in the trunk, and instructed

715
00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:14.280
<v Speaker 1>Ruth to keep quiet when her hand was bleeding from

716
00:39:14.280 --> 00:39:16.639
<v Speaker 1>the gunshot wound. It was John who promised a doctor

717
00:39:16.639 --> 00:39:19.800
<v Speaker 1>would come, but never did. She claimed that this whole

718
00:39:19.840 --> 00:39:22.239
<v Speaker 1>plan to take the bodies to la was his idea.

719
00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:25.800
<v Speaker 1>He told her that one of his quote contacts would

720
00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:29.000
<v Speaker 1>meet her there at this contact never showed that plan,

721
00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:32.320
<v Speaker 1>she said, was just his way of pushing her and

722
00:39:32.360 --> 00:39:39.039
<v Speaker 1>the problem out of Phoenix and out of his life. Quote,

723
00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:42.320
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to be hanged for something John Holleran is

724
00:39:42.360 --> 00:39:46.400
<v Speaker 1>responsible for. He is guilty of anything I am guilty of.

725
00:39:47.920 --> 00:39:53.960
<v Speaker 1>Not really but okay, well maybe not murder, but still

726
00:39:54.400 --> 00:39:55.920
<v Speaker 1>a lot to a lot of things.

727
00:39:56.079 --> 00:39:56.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, for sure.

728
00:39:57.599 --> 00:40:01.000
<v Speaker 1>It was an emotional and damning testimony. John's attorney had

729
00:40:01.039 --> 00:40:05.440
<v Speaker 1>a different approach. John didn't take the stand. His attorney

730
00:40:05.519 --> 00:40:08.719
<v Speaker 1>argued that Ruth's version of events was not credible, describing

731
00:40:08.719 --> 00:40:11.679
<v Speaker 1>her testimony as quote the story of an insane person,

732
00:40:12.119 --> 00:40:14.519
<v Speaker 1>and it didn't help that Ruth had changed her account

733
00:40:14.599 --> 00:40:18.039
<v Speaker 1>multiple times, first saying she acted alone, then pointing to John,

734
00:40:18.039 --> 00:40:21.679
<v Speaker 1>and even later offering yet another version of the stories

735
00:40:21.719 --> 00:40:24.920
<v Speaker 1>in a written confession which we will get to. The

736
00:40:24.960 --> 00:40:28.199
<v Speaker 1>defense argued that even if Ruth's defense claimed it was true,

737
00:40:28.559 --> 00:40:31.360
<v Speaker 1>no crime was committed for John to be an accompliced

738
00:40:31.360 --> 00:40:34.840
<v Speaker 1>to and if it wasn't true, then she had murdered

739
00:40:34.840 --> 00:40:37.039
<v Speaker 1>the women in cold blood, and then she was alone

740
00:40:37.360 --> 00:40:41.679
<v Speaker 1>in the responsibility. The prosecution had little hard evidence tying

741
00:40:41.719 --> 00:40:45.360
<v Speaker 1>John to the crime, no fingerprints, no photographs, witnesses, nothing,

742
00:40:46.519 --> 00:40:50.239
<v Speaker 1>So after just a short deliberation, the jury returned with

743
00:40:50.280 --> 00:40:56.360
<v Speaker 1>their verdict. John Holleran was found not guilty.

744
00:40:56.599 --> 00:41:02.760
<v Speaker 2>You're kidding me. He walked free, of course he fucking did. Yeah,

745
00:41:02.800 --> 00:41:07.119
<v Speaker 2>what the actual shit, I'm going to stop it there.

746
00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:11.960
<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh. Okay, I can't even imagine. There is

747
00:41:12.039 --> 00:41:14.119
<v Speaker 2>much more to go on here. But also, how the

748
00:41:14.239 --> 00:41:19.320
<v Speaker 2>fuck did he get not guilty? I mean, maybe I don't.

749
00:41:19.159 --> 00:41:21.400
<v Speaker 1>Know what the fuck's going on, but well, okay, I'm

750
00:41:21.400 --> 00:41:24.239
<v Speaker 1>going to read a couple more paragraphs here. I just

751
00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:26.039
<v Speaker 1>scrolled down a little bit and I see a better

752
00:41:26.039 --> 00:41:26.480
<v Speaker 1>spot from you.

753
00:41:26.760 --> 00:41:29.480
<v Speaker 2>Wow, you're just like playing with us here.

754
00:41:29.679 --> 00:41:33.159
<v Speaker 1>Definitely, definitely, so John may have avoided prison, but the

755
00:41:33.199 --> 00:41:36.960
<v Speaker 1>court and sorry, but the court and public opinion wasn't forgiving.

756
00:41:37.199 --> 00:41:40.320
<v Speaker 1>John's reputation in Phoenix. Once rock solid, you know, he

757
00:41:40.400 --> 00:41:43.280
<v Speaker 1>was quite the socialite sort of thing, it was shattered.

758
00:41:43.400 --> 00:41:47.760
<v Speaker 1>His social standings plummeted. Business partners distanced themselves, political allies

759
00:41:47.840 --> 00:41:51.320
<v Speaker 1>they went silent. Even though he was acquitted, many believed

760
00:41:51.320 --> 00:41:54.000
<v Speaker 1>that he got away with something right. After all, his

761
00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:56.199
<v Speaker 1>car had been seen parked at the bungalow the night

762
00:41:56.239 --> 00:42:00.000
<v Speaker 1>of the murders. Okay, and I was something that came

763
00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:00.760
<v Speaker 1>up in the court.

764
00:42:00.920 --> 00:42:03.760
<v Speaker 2>I imagine he probably also lost his family and stuff

765
00:42:03.760 --> 00:42:04.760
<v Speaker 2>in all this situation.

766
00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:07.280
<v Speaker 1>Most likely he was close with all these three women.

767
00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:11.119
<v Speaker 1>His name came up constantly in testimonies and rumors. So

768
00:42:11.719 --> 00:42:15.239
<v Speaker 1>his personal life is connections, is business. All that sort

769
00:42:15.239 --> 00:42:17.880
<v Speaker 1>of stuff was shattered. He moved to Tuscan not long

770
00:42:17.960 --> 00:42:21.239
<v Speaker 1>after and lived a quieter, more private life. In nineteen

771
00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:25.000
<v Speaker 1>thirty nine, just eight years after the murder, John Hollerand died,

772
00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:28.000
<v Speaker 1>taking whatever secrets he had with him to the grave.

773
00:42:28.880 --> 00:42:31.559
<v Speaker 1>And Ruth well, her story is not over yet, not

774
00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:34.559
<v Speaker 1>by a long shot. And that's where we'll stop.

775
00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:40.360
<v Speaker 2>WHOA, Okay, you know now, I'm just kind of like, gosh,

776
00:42:40.400 --> 00:42:45.159
<v Speaker 2>should just make all of this shit up. But okay, interesting, Yeah,

777
00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:46.239
<v Speaker 2>I guess I have to wait.

778
00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:48.599
<v Speaker 1>You definitely have to wait, and trust me, it's worth it.

779
00:42:49.599 --> 00:42:51.519
<v Speaker 1>But there are a lot of loose ends that are

780
00:42:51.599 --> 00:42:54.639
<v Speaker 1>left untied with this case. I will say that what

781
00:42:54.760 --> 00:42:57.400
<v Speaker 1>we talked about in the courtroom, that what they came

782
00:42:57.480 --> 00:43:01.719
<v Speaker 1>up with, that is the convict for this case. That

783
00:43:01.960 --> 00:43:05.039
<v Speaker 1>Ruth was guilty and John was not. That is what

784
00:43:05.320 --> 00:43:07.800
<v Speaker 1>came out of this. But there is some more theories.

785
00:43:08.119 --> 00:43:10.119
<v Speaker 1>There's some more evidence that came to light. There's some

786
00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:13.239
<v Speaker 1>more things that happened, and yeah, we'll talk all about

787
00:43:13.239 --> 00:43:15.760
<v Speaker 1>that in the next episode in part two.

788
00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:19.280
<v Speaker 2>Gosh, okay, I can't wait. Interesting. This is a real

789
00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:20.199
<v Speaker 2>interesting one.

790
00:43:20.280 --> 00:43:22.719
<v Speaker 1>It definitely is. So if you guys want to stick

791
00:43:22.719 --> 00:43:24.760
<v Speaker 1>around for that, Part two will be out on Friday.

792
00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:27.039
<v Speaker 1>You want to check out more of our social links, Hey,

793
00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:30.360
<v Speaker 1>we have a full description Facebook, Instagram. All that good

794
00:43:30.400 --> 00:43:32.800
<v Speaker 1>stuff is down there. You can check it out. We've

795
00:43:32.800 --> 00:43:34.920
<v Speaker 1>been lighting it up on Instagram lately. In fact, we

796
00:43:34.960 --> 00:43:37.239
<v Speaker 1>even had a post that's almost a million views.

797
00:43:37.280 --> 00:43:39.480
<v Speaker 2>Now I think Holy shit, really.

798
00:43:39.239 --> 00:43:40.519
<v Speaker 1>I think, so what was it at.

799
00:43:40.840 --> 00:43:43.960
<v Speaker 2>That's crazy that it got that high. I didn't realize.

800
00:43:44.119 --> 00:43:47.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and it was just a little post on ironically,

801
00:43:48.360 --> 00:43:51.559
<v Speaker 1>a story that we claim is controversial, and of course

802
00:43:51.679 --> 00:43:54.199
<v Speaker 1>people are being a little bit controversial in the comments.

803
00:43:54.280 --> 00:43:58.320
<v Speaker 1>We had to turn those comments off. Okay, we're at

804
00:43:58.320 --> 00:44:00.360
<v Speaker 1>three quarters of a million views on it now.

805
00:44:00.599 --> 00:44:02.920
<v Speaker 2>Okay, wow, I feel like last time I looked, it

806
00:44:02.960 --> 00:44:04.639
<v Speaker 2>was three hundred, so that's crazy.

807
00:44:04.760 --> 00:44:08.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's been quite an interesting time. But yeah, if

808
00:44:08.639 --> 00:44:10.199
<v Speaker 1>you want to check out our socials all in the

809
00:44:10.199 --> 00:44:13.679
<v Speaker 1>description of this podcast, there you go, There you go.

810
00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:15.000
<v Speaker 1>Good Spiel, Good Spiel.

811
00:44:15.360 --> 00:44:17.639
<v Speaker 2>Until Friday, Stay Wicked,