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Start having the 24 00:00:55.159 --> 00:00:57.880 most fun ever at Chumbuck Casino dot com. 25 00:00:57.920 --> 00:01:00.039 Noe B just Necessary Dvoid Over Every Boy Lost The 26 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:02.320 Conditions eighteen plus. 27 00:01:08.120 --> 00:01:11.519 You are now listening to True Murder. The most shocking 28 00:01:11.599 --> 00:01:14.640 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 29 00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:22.000 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 30 00:01:22.040 --> 00:01:25.719 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 31 00:01:25.840 --> 00:01:30.000 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 32 00:01:30.040 --> 00:01:33.239 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 33 00:01:41.159 --> 00:01:45.079 The true story behind NBC's Marquee mini series The Thing 34 00:01:45.120 --> 00:01:49.640 About Pam, starring Rene zellawigger and as Pam Hop and 35 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:55.359 Josh Domel as Jeryl Schwarze, premiering February twenty twenty two. 36 00:01:56.079 --> 00:01:59.319 The explosive, first ever insiders account of the case that's 37 00:01:59.400 --> 00:02:03.719 captivated millions, The murder of Betsy Faria and the wrongful 38 00:02:03.760 --> 00:02:07.079 conviction of her husband, told by Joel J. Schwartz, the 39 00:02:07.159 --> 00:02:10.879 defense attorney who fought for justice on behalf of Russell Faria, 40 00:02:11.240 --> 00:02:15.439 and New York Times bestselling author Charles Bosworth Junior. On 41 00:02:15.520 --> 00:02:20.240 December twenty seventh, twenty eleven, Russell Faria returned to his Troy, 42 00:02:20.319 --> 00:02:23.759 Missouri home after his weekly game night with friends to 43 00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:28.000 an unthinkable, grisly scene. His wife Betsy lay dead, a 44 00:02:28.080 --> 00:02:31.599 knife still lodged in her neck. She'd been stabbed fifty 45 00:02:31.639 --> 00:02:36.000 five times. First responders concluded that Bessie was dead for 46 00:02:36.159 --> 00:02:40.680 hours when Russ discovered her. No blood was found, implicating Russ, 47 00:02:40.919 --> 00:02:45.960 and surveillance, video, receipts, and friends testimony all supported his alibi. 48 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:50.919 Yet incredibly, police in the prosecuting attorney ignored the evidence. 49 00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:55.639 In their minds, Russ was guilty, but prominent defense attorney 50 00:02:55.719 --> 00:03:00.599 Joel J. Schwartz quickly recognized the real killer. The motive 51 00:03:00.759 --> 00:03:04.319 was clear. Days before her murder, the terminally ill Betsy 52 00:03:04.400 --> 00:03:07.599 replaced her husband with her friend Pamela Hupp as her 53 00:03:07.639 --> 00:03:13.039 life insurance beneficiary. Still, despite the prosecution's flimsy case and 54 00:03:13.159 --> 00:03:18.599 Hupp's transparent lies, Russ was convicted, leaving Hup free to 55 00:03:18.680 --> 00:03:22.400 kill again. Bone Deep takes readers through the perfect storm 56 00:03:22.439 --> 00:03:27.000 of miscalculations and missteps that led to an innocent man's conviction, 57 00:03:27.840 --> 00:03:32.719 and recounts Schwartz's successful battle to have that conviction overturned. 58 00:03:33.080 --> 00:03:36.879 Written with Russ Faria's cooperation, and filled with chilling new 59 00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:41.719 revelations and previously undisclothed evidence, This is the story of 60 00:03:41.759 --> 00:03:45.719 what can happen when police, prosecutor, judge and jury all 61 00:03:45.759 --> 00:03:48.840 fail in their duty to protect the innocent and let 62 00:03:48.960 --> 00:03:52.599 a killer get away with murder. The book that we're 63 00:03:52.599 --> 00:03:56.879 featuring this evening is Bone Deep Untangling the Betsy Faria 64 00:03:57.000 --> 00:04:01.759 Murder Case, with my special guests journalist and author Henry 65 00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:07.280 Bosworth Junior And attorney and author Joel J. Schwartz. Welcome 66 00:04:07.319 --> 00:04:09.479 to the program, and thank you so much for this interview, 67 00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:12.719 Henry Bosworth Jr. And Joel J. Schwartz. 68 00:04:13.039 --> 00:04:16.199 Dan, thank you so much. Joel. I appreciate you having Charles. 69 00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:17.120 And I Yeah, thank you, Dan. 70 00:04:17.319 --> 00:04:20.079 Thank you very much, gentlemen for this. This is an 71 00:04:20.079 --> 00:04:24.360 incredible story, as evidenced by the interest in this mini series. 72 00:04:24.839 --> 00:04:27.800 But this we have to get right back right to 73 00:04:28.360 --> 00:04:34.360 how this incredible story occurred. Let's talk about you mentioned 74 00:04:34.879 --> 00:04:42.000 before the interview about Charles of Bosworth contacting you, Joel, 75 00:04:42.360 --> 00:04:47.360 and tell us about that contact and what was said 76 00:04:47.399 --> 00:04:48.120 and discussed. 77 00:04:48.319 --> 00:04:50.959 Well, certainly, as you can imagine this story which now 78 00:04:51.079 --> 00:04:56.000 holds the record for dateline appearances in national publicity, there 79 00:04:56.079 --> 00:05:02.079 had been documentarian filmmakers list contacting me throughout the years, 80 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:07.000 and for whatever reason, I just didn't feel comfortable with 81 00:05:07.160 --> 00:05:10.000 any of these individuals who contacted me. And one day 82 00:05:10.040 --> 00:05:14.000 I got a call from Charlie Bosworth followed up with 83 00:05:14.079 --> 00:05:17.079 an email, and most of the time I had a 84 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:18.800 phone conversation with people, and I said, you know what, 85 00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:23.680 I just don't think I'm interested. Charlie called and I 86 00:05:23.720 --> 00:05:27.079 can't Maybe it was his Deep Morgan Freeman's sounding voice. 87 00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:30.519 I don't know, but I said, yeah, I would love 88 00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:33.399 to meet you, Charlie, and he came on out. We 89 00:05:33.439 --> 00:05:36.319 had lunch, We talked about his vision. He gave me 90 00:05:36.360 --> 00:05:38.560 a copy of one of his previous books, which I 91 00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:42.160 devoured the next forty eight hours. And I called him 92 00:05:42.199 --> 00:05:44.680 back and said, I would be honored to work with 93 00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:48.439 you and write this book. And I think that my 94 00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:52.519 instinct has been born out given the final product of 95 00:05:52.680 --> 00:05:55.680 Bone Deep, that readers can take a look at and read. 96 00:05:56.000 --> 00:06:01.279 Charles talk about the Tuesday, December twenty seventh, twenty eleven. 97 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:05.040 The thing that intrigued me from the very beginning, and 98 00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:09.800 I had watched this. I was in corporate communications for 99 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:14.079 the last few years before I retired, and I had 100 00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:18.399 watched with a professional interest in his case all along, 101 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:23.319 and had seen the Dateline episodes and had marveled at 102 00:06:23.399 --> 00:06:27.079 the fact that with all of the alibi evidence there 103 00:06:27.240 --> 00:06:30.959 was that Russ was convicted. And I knew Joel Schwartz 104 00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:36.040 by reputation, we had never met. I did know his partner, 105 00:06:36.360 --> 00:06:39.639 Scott Rosenblom. I had covered some cases that Scott had 106 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:43.720 been involved in, and there was just something about the case. 107 00:06:44.360 --> 00:06:47.360 And as I was getting ready to retire, I thought, 108 00:06:47.399 --> 00:06:49.839 you know, I haven't heard of a book being prepared 109 00:06:49.839 --> 00:06:53.519 for this, and I just decided, almost on a lark, 110 00:06:53.560 --> 00:06:56.959 to call Jewel and see if he would be interested 111 00:06:57.040 --> 00:07:04.360 in working together. Happily he was, and the story begins 112 00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:08.319 on an evening that couldn't be any more average for 113 00:07:09.199 --> 00:07:13.879 the couple, the Russ and Betsy Faria. Every Tuesday night, 114 00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:18.319 Russ had a game night in O'Fallon, Missouri, about thirty 115 00:07:18.519 --> 00:07:21.680 five forty five minutes away from his home in Troy, Missouri, 116 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:27.000 and he and Betsy corresponded by text several times during 117 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:33.160 the day, discussing their various plans. Betsy, unfortunately was battling 118 00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:37.319 a recurrence of cancer and was going to be going 119 00:07:37.399 --> 00:07:41.759 to a chemo treatment that day, and Russ was going 120 00:07:41.800 --> 00:07:44.839 to pick her up at her mother's apartment after the 121 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:48.439 chemo and after his game night event. He got a 122 00:07:48.439 --> 00:07:52.759 message from Betsy during the afternoon saying that she had 123 00:07:53.399 --> 00:07:55.360 a friend of hers had offered to give her a 124 00:07:55.480 --> 00:07:58.560 ride home. Russ was not going to have to make 125 00:07:58.600 --> 00:08:00.480 the trip and pick her up and take her home, 126 00:08:01.639 --> 00:08:05.480 so Russ did ransom errands on the way to game night, 127 00:08:05.560 --> 00:08:08.879 spent three hours at Game night with his four friends. 128 00:08:09.560 --> 00:08:13.879 They couldn't actually play the Role Master game that they 129 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:17.839 usually played because one of their members was absent, so 130 00:08:17.879 --> 00:08:20.800 they watched a couple of movies and at nine o'clock 131 00:08:20.839 --> 00:08:25.680 as usual, he headed home and arrived shortly after nine 132 00:08:25.680 --> 00:08:31.079 point thirty and walked in to just the most horrible, 133 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:35.440 unimaginable scene that any of us would would would ever 134 00:08:36.120 --> 00:08:37.399 want to find ourselves into. 135 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:38.639 It was just awful. 136 00:08:39.639 --> 00:08:42.919 Betsy was on the floor of the living room and 137 00:08:43.480 --> 00:08:48.120 had pretty ghastly gashes across her arms, which which Russ 138 00:08:48.120 --> 00:08:50.960 saw as he walked into the room, and of course 139 00:08:51.039 --> 00:08:55.159 the horrible, horrible thing of the knife still protruding from 140 00:08:55.159 --> 00:08:59.120 her neck. And it's almost impossible to imagine walking into 141 00:08:59.120 --> 00:09:01.360 that kind of scene with your spouse, but that's what 142 00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:04.399 he was confronted with he had the presence of mind 143 00:09:04.600 --> 00:09:08.600 once he realized that she was gone, that he ran 144 00:09:08.639 --> 00:09:11.279 into the other room and made it called nine to 145 00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:15.320 one one to ask ask them to send help immediately. 146 00:09:15.879 --> 00:09:20.799 And that's that's the awful beginning to what became, you know, 147 00:09:21.159 --> 00:09:26.080 a ten year story of injustice and the failure of 148 00:09:26.879 --> 00:09:31.200 public officials to do their jobs correctly. And the good 149 00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:36.240 thing about Joel being dedicated to doing his job correctly. 150 00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:40.919 Now Joel there is the Russ is called nine one one. 151 00:09:41.480 --> 00:09:44.559 We talked about Charles just mentioning that tell us what 152 00:09:44.759 --> 00:09:48.559 happens with the first responders, the police that first arrive, 153 00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:53.240 talk about it. Sergeant mcaerrick tell us who first arrives, 154 00:09:53.279 --> 00:09:56.200 and what Russ reports to the police that he has 155 00:09:56.279 --> 00:09:59.279 done when he has come home, and what he finds 156 00:09:59.639 --> 00:10:02.600 some of the details that end up in that initial 157 00:10:02.679 --> 00:10:03.440 police report. 158 00:10:03.639 --> 00:10:09.480 How much time we got. Yeah, the first responders show up. 159 00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:11.879 That's EMS and the fire department. They're the first in. 160 00:10:12.480 --> 00:10:17.519 And the two first responders approached Betsy's body and they 161 00:10:17.600 --> 00:10:23.519 note and they report that the body is cooling, it's stiff, 162 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:27.759 and a pool of blood right by. Betsy Furia has 163 00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:31.240 been drying or pooling, as they say, indicating that this 164 00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:33.320 has happened some time ago, in the span of at 165 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:35.759 least a couple of hours prior to the time that 166 00:10:35.799 --> 00:10:39.399 they had arrived. The next is are the police, And 167 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:41.639 the police do what it's called clearing the area, just 168 00:10:41.639 --> 00:10:44.480 to make sure whoever did this there's not anybody hiding 169 00:10:44.519 --> 00:10:46.639 in the shower or there's not anybody hiding in a closet. 170 00:10:46.919 --> 00:10:49.559 They clear the area, and then the detective showed up. 171 00:10:49.600 --> 00:10:52.440 And that's what you're talking about, there was saying. Detective 172 00:10:52.440 --> 00:10:54.840 on the case. Ryan mccarett was one of the lead detectives, 173 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:57.600 along with a guy named Mike Merkle and a guy 174 00:10:57.679 --> 00:11:01.240 named Patrick Horney. And they show up. Russ had been 175 00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:04.240 taken outside the residence, so it's not to disturb the scene, 176 00:11:04.240 --> 00:11:09.279 but they immediately presumed that the husband did it. Is 177 00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:13.279 that fair? Well, he did find the body and he 178 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:17.159 was the husband, and I think essentially most people assume 179 00:11:17.200 --> 00:11:21.080 it is the spouse who was responsible. What had happened 180 00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:23.799 on the nine to one one call that Russ had 181 00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:27.399 made that Charlie alluded to was when he got home, 182 00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:29.759 he picked up the phone. I think he was going 183 00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:32.679 into shock, and he immediately told the nine one one 184 00:11:32.759 --> 00:11:35.519 supervisor at least three times that I just got home 185 00:11:36.120 --> 00:11:40.559 and my wife committed suicide. Based upon that call and 186 00:11:40.720 --> 00:11:44.080 the attempt to say she committed suicide, I think aroused 187 00:11:44.080 --> 00:11:48.440 the suspicions of the officers. What they didn't know is 188 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:51.080 that she had attempted suicide in the past and been 189 00:11:51.159 --> 00:11:55.240 involuntarily committed by a patrolman for running a stop sign 190 00:11:55.480 --> 00:11:57.879 because she felt like killing herself just a couple of 191 00:11:57.960 --> 00:12:02.200 years prior. Just prior to this time, she had been 192 00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:06.039 diagnosed with terminal cancer and had been at times despondent. 193 00:12:06.399 --> 00:12:09.039 So that is why that notion popped into Russ's head. 194 00:12:09.799 --> 00:12:12.840 These are things that the officers didn't know, nor did 195 00:12:12.840 --> 00:12:16.120 they consider when they originally considered us to be a suspect. 196 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:18.679 What they did is the opposite is not only presuming 197 00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:21.559 it was a husband, but they based that presumption on 198 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:24.200 the fact that they thought, Okay, this guy's trying to 199 00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:26.159 lie to us, trying to send us in the wrong direction. 200 00:12:26.919 --> 00:12:28.679 What they failed to realize, in addition to what I 201 00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:32.559 just briefly said, was all of the multitude of the 202 00:12:32.559 --> 00:12:36.080 fifty six stab wounds with a few exceptions or throughout. 203 00:12:36.159 --> 00:12:39.200 That'si's torso and her legs, and those were covered in 204 00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:42.039 dark clothing, so none of those wounds could be seen. 205 00:12:42.360 --> 00:12:44.080 If you want to take a leap of faith, what 206 00:12:44.200 --> 00:12:46.799 you have to presume is the person who made the 207 00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:52.480 call would not be just so ridiculous as to presume 208 00:12:53.159 --> 00:12:55.840 that the examiners would never look at the body and 209 00:12:56.080 --> 00:13:00.960 go along with a hypothesis of suicide. So it follows 210 00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:03.919 that the person who said this was suicide by calling 211 00:13:03.960 --> 00:13:06.759 in would not have been the person who had done this, 212 00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:09.960 because it wasn't made to look like a suicide. The 213 00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:14.399 additional factor that I neglected to mention so far is 214 00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:16.919 that when Russ came home, not only did he was 215 00:13:17.039 --> 00:13:20.320 armed with this information about Betsy and her previous suicide attempts, 216 00:13:20.320 --> 00:13:24.120 but there was a large, large gash in her right wrist, 217 00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:27.879 there were other crossways gashes on her forearms, and there 218 00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:30.399 was a knife berry deep into her neck as we say, 219 00:13:30.519 --> 00:13:34.399 it was bone deep, along with the gash and her wrists. 220 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:37.360 So that's what led to US's conclusion, and I think 221 00:13:37.480 --> 00:13:43.000 that's what led to their primary myopia and focus on Russ. 222 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:47.559 The problem with the investigation is Russ. Had he called 223 00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:50.480 me when he was arrested, I would have told him, 224 00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:53.720 as any prudent attorney, shut your mouth, I'll see you 225 00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:55.919 tomorrow morning. I'll want you to talk to these detectives. 226 00:13:56.840 --> 00:14:00.440 Fortunately for us, he did not call an attorney, certainly 227 00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:03.000 not me. We didn't know each other. He went in 228 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:05.720 with the officers. He spoke to the first team of 229 00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:08.759 officers for about six hours, then he spoke to another 230 00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:11.399 team of officers for about six hours, with around lots 231 00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:15.039 of time sprinkled in between, and spent approximately thirty six 232 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:19.360 hours recanting where he went the entire evening and who 233 00:14:19.399 --> 00:14:23.960 he was risk Fortunately what happened is they were able 234 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:26.879 to go everywhere he went. They were able to confirm 235 00:14:26.919 --> 00:14:31.679 his presence via video and receipt and witness testimony. They 236 00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:34.120 also went and talked to before alibi witnesses that he 237 00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:37.720 claimed he had been with. They separated them, they talked 238 00:14:37.879 --> 00:14:41.639 to them separately, all of the which occurred while Russ 239 00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:43.720 was still in police custody, so we know he didn't 240 00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:47.200 speak to anybody. They also were able to confirm on 241 00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:49.840 video that he was wearing the exact same clothing that 242 00:14:49.879 --> 00:14:53.480 he was arrested in earlier that evening. What they in 243 00:14:53.559 --> 00:14:59.240 effect did was my job, meaning they proved Russe Maria 244 00:14:59.559 --> 00:15:05.159 could not have done this. However, inexplicably, with that conclusion 245 00:15:05.159 --> 00:15:08.440 in mind, at least on my mind, they charged him. 246 00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:12.960 I still to this day don't know why there wasn't 247 00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:17.360 somebody that stepped back and said, wait a minute, this 248 00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:20.080 guy's got an alibi. There's not a speck of blood 249 00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:22.879 on them, which would be impossible. There's no evidence whatsoever 250 00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:25.200 other than he's the spouse and he does get some 251 00:15:25.279 --> 00:15:29.679 insurance money that he would have done this. The big 252 00:15:29.720 --> 00:15:34.039 factor that they neglected was there was a clear alternate 253 00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:37.240 suspect served up to them on a silver platter, and 254 00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:40.679 that was Pam hop What we knew about Pam at 255 00:15:40.720 --> 00:15:45.720 the time was she got for a portion of Betsy's 256 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:49.240 insurance proceeds. One policy for one hundred and fifty thousand 257 00:15:49.279 --> 00:15:52.440 dollars have been assigned to her merely four days earlier, 258 00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:59.200 under strangely suspicious circumstances. In addition, when they went to 259 00:15:59.240 --> 00:16:01.440 talk to Pam, over the course of about three and 260 00:16:01.480 --> 00:16:03.639 a half hours, and I think I counted at one point, 261 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:06.399 there was over twenty lies that she told that were provable. 262 00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:09.120 And not only were they lies that ultimately changed or 263 00:16:09.159 --> 00:16:12.320 revolved over the course of time. They changed over the 264 00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:16.360 course of that initial interview. For example, two quick ones, 265 00:16:16.840 --> 00:16:18.759 I didn't go in the house too. I went in 266 00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:20.600 the house, I just went in the floyer. So I 267 00:16:20.639 --> 00:16:22.080 went in the foyer, I went in the living room, 268 00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:23.679 and I went in to the kitchen, all the way 269 00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:25.440 to I went all the way in the back room 270 00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:28.840 and went throughout the house. Is that important in and 271 00:16:28.879 --> 00:16:32.879 of itself. No, not necessarily. It's suspicious, doesn't mean she 272 00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:35.679 was a murderer. But you looked at those lies, and 273 00:16:35.720 --> 00:16:37.960 then you look at where evidence was found, and it 274 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:41.240 simply happens to me everywhere Pam Hoak went and finally 275 00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:42.679 admitted to over the course of the straight and a 276 00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:46.360 half hours. The other line that I think is just 277 00:16:46.519 --> 00:16:49.600 glaring is there was a phone call made from Pam's 278 00:16:49.639 --> 00:16:53.879 phone to Betsy's phone approximately twenty minutes after they arrived 279 00:16:53.919 --> 00:16:57.919 at Betsy's house. The detectives asked miss Hubb why she 280 00:16:58.080 --> 00:17:00.720 called Betsy, and the first answer was to let her 281 00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:03.360 knowme that I made it home safe. Over the course 282 00:17:03.399 --> 00:17:06.640 of that interview, it evolved from well, I was almost 283 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:10.240 home when I called her, and the officers for still 284 00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:12.640 someone incredulous because she couldn't have been almost home, And 285 00:17:12.759 --> 00:17:14.480 she certainly could have been home because she lived over 286 00:17:14.519 --> 00:17:16.440 thirty minutes away, and we know that she had spent 287 00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:21.440 time inside Betsy's house. The important factor there is by 288 00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:24.319 cell site, I was able to determine that she was 289 00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:27.079 still within the what they call the pie slide or 290 00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:29.720 the sector by cell side of the house, meaning she 291 00:17:29.839 --> 00:17:32.200 was either in the house or near the house at 292 00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:34.799 the time. And I would propose that she was in 293 00:17:34.839 --> 00:17:36.759 the house at the time she made that phone call 294 00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:39.880 merely as what we can call her own alibi call 295 00:17:40.119 --> 00:17:42.839 with no knowledge of technical expertise and no knowledge that 296 00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:44.920 they could place a cell phone as to where it 297 00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:47.759 was when I made the phone call. So those are 298 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:52.240 just a couple of the glaring lies that changed or 299 00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:54.799 the stories had changed in the course of her initial interview. 300 00:17:56.079 --> 00:18:01.000 Eventually those stories became well. When I met was, I 301 00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:03.480 left her house and I sat around the corner, and 302 00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:08.440 I did go everywhere in the house. I can't and 303 00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:11.240 I don't want to go into absolutely every lie that 304 00:18:11.319 --> 00:18:14.720 she told. The point of this story is simply, why 305 00:18:15.039 --> 00:18:17.359 not take a look at this woman who stood to 306 00:18:17.480 --> 00:18:22.000 gain when Betsy died and she got the proceeds of 307 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:25.920 her life insurance policy with Armed with that information, when 308 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:28.880 I first got hired and got the discovery, I knew. 309 00:18:29.119 --> 00:18:30.599 I knew it in my gut. I knew it in 310 00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:32.960 my brain that I was going to have this case 311 00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:37.279 dismissed within a month to two months. And we would 312 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:39.720 have been done with this in early twenty twelve, and 313 00:18:39.799 --> 00:18:42.400 we certainly wouldn't be talking about it ten years later, 314 00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:46.599 in twenty twenty two. Suffice to say, I couldn't have 315 00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:49.920 been more wrong in either my gut nor my brain. 316 00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:54.200 The thing you were wrong about was also the prosecutor 317 00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:59.680 in this Askie prosecutor Askie as well. But you talk 318 00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:03.240 about that when you got discovery, you reviewed the tapes, 319 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:10.799 the police interview tapes with Hup, and you were shocked, amazed, 320 00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:17.759 and surprised that they took the information from her as gospel. 321 00:19:17.799 --> 00:19:20.680 As you as you write, what are the things that 322 00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:25.480 she said to police unchallenged? It seemed that swayed the 323 00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:28.400 police to believe that Russ was actually the killer of 324 00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:28.839 his wife. 325 00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:32.000 Well, she would throw in morsels. They said, how well 326 00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:34.240 do you know Russ, and as she said, I only 327 00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:37.920 met him two or three times, and he seemed nice enough. However, 328 00:19:38.279 --> 00:19:40.640 during the course of the interview, she would talk about 329 00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:43.599 how he was rude and how he was demeaning, and 330 00:19:43.640 --> 00:19:46.960 how he was having affairs and leaving Betsy and separated 331 00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:53.079 from her six or seven times. And ultimately it became 332 00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:58.039 years later that he found out strangely enough, which we 333 00:19:58.079 --> 00:19:59.799 think is a lie. Actually we know it's a lie, 334 00:19:59.799 --> 00:20:02.279 that were lovers and that Russ I'm out about it, 335 00:20:02.359 --> 00:20:03.799 and threatened to cut her up and bury her in 336 00:20:03.799 --> 00:20:08.079 the backyard. That's the magnitude of how the story changed 337 00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:11.400 from I barely know him, I've only met him a 338 00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:15.519 couple of times, which was true too. I could feel 339 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:19.119 his spit on my face. He was inches away, threatened 340 00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:20.839 to kill me and cut me up and bury me 341 00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:25.680 in the backyard. That alone, the change alone, that's one 342 00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:28.720 little lie. She told me. Should have clued the police 343 00:20:28.759 --> 00:20:31.000 and to investigat her. But we can go further. In 344 00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:35.319 the initial interview, one of the things she kept saying was, 345 00:20:35.720 --> 00:20:39.119 and I'm quoting her, Betsy was going to email me 346 00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:42.519 everything about Russ that he was doing to her. That 347 00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:45.640 made her so uncomfortable. She didn't want to go home 348 00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:48.359 because she was scared of us. If she'd just find 349 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:51.680 the email, I mean, the document that she was going 350 00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:54.240 to send to me. And she said it that way 351 00:20:54.440 --> 00:20:57.039 about five times during the course of the interview, meaning 352 00:20:57.119 --> 00:20:59.359 she would always say she was going to email I 353 00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:03.680 mean she created document. Ultimately, which we found out four 354 00:21:03.880 --> 00:21:07.440 years later, almost to the day, was that Betsy there 355 00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:11.440 was a document found in Betsy's computer. Everything that Pam 356 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:13.880 had indicated would be in the document in that initial 357 00:21:13.880 --> 00:21:18.240 interview was in the document. It was essentially a dying 358 00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:21.119 declaration from Betsy. It was a letter to the police 359 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:24.519 that if something or to Pam that if something happens 360 00:21:24.519 --> 00:21:27.119 to me, you need to show this to the police. 361 00:21:27.799 --> 00:21:29.759 Russ has been threatening to kill me by putting a 362 00:21:29.799 --> 00:21:31.680 pillow over my face and saying this is what it's 363 00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:34.680 going to feel like when you're dead. He continues to 364 00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:36.920 talk about the insurance proceeds he's going to get and 365 00:21:36.920 --> 00:21:39.680 then he's going to be free. All these things were 366 00:21:39.720 --> 00:21:43.279 contained within that document, in addition to some other things. 367 00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:47.160 What was so noteworthy about the document that Pam continued 368 00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:50.000 to direct these police student that they didn't find for 369 00:21:50.039 --> 00:21:53.240 four years and I might at ten days prior to 370 00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:57.880 the second trial. Was that it was authored in Betsy's computer, 371 00:21:58.559 --> 00:22:01.799 and a document that couldn't have been created by Betsy's 372 00:22:01.799 --> 00:22:05.759 computer because that program didn't exist. It was created at 373 00:22:05.799 --> 00:22:08.559 a time that Pam was with Betsy at the tennis club. 374 00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:12.119 We know that when Pam was sitting there watching and 375 00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:14.759 Betsy was playing tennis with several other people. It was 376 00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:18.000 the only document of all the hundreds in Betsy's computer 377 00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:22.039 that read author unknown, So we know it was created 378 00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:24.119 a time that that Pam would have had access to 379 00:22:24.119 --> 00:22:26.839 the computer. It was uploaded to the computer from a 380 00:22:26.839 --> 00:22:30.319 different computer. It contained dying declarations. It contained all the 381 00:22:30.440 --> 00:22:35.039 information regarding the insurance and threats about Russ. However, no 382 00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:39.200 family member nor anybody else could corroborate the information, with 383 00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:41.960 the exception of Pam, who knew everything that was in 384 00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:44.960 the letter. That in of itself should include the police 385 00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:48.000 into Maybe not to presume that Pam was the one 386 00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:50.599 who did it, but she's been lying about everybody, and 387 00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:52.839 we need to take a look at this woman. The 388 00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:56.200 most important factor was she had always said on that 389 00:22:56.359 --> 00:23:00.440 Friday before the Tuesday, that Betsy was brutally murdered. Betsy 390 00:23:00.599 --> 00:23:03.799 surprised her saying, Hey, I want to change my insurance 391 00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:06.079 proceeds to you, which I've never believed and I don't 392 00:23:06.079 --> 00:23:09.400 think is true as far as being surprised. But what 393 00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:12.680 we know was the day before that, in the supposed 394 00:23:12.920 --> 00:23:15.480 email that Betsy was going to send, which I believe 395 00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:18.960 is a document creative by Pam, she again talked about 396 00:23:19.240 --> 00:23:23.119 I want to transfer my insurance proceeds to you. In effect, 397 00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:26.880 Pam knew exactly what she was going to do. She 398 00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:29.119 knew the day and time she was going to do 399 00:23:29.160 --> 00:23:31.960 it because everybody knew Russ was gone for four hours 400 00:23:32.359 --> 00:23:36.000 the following Tuesday, and she knew that she was getting 401 00:23:36.039 --> 00:23:40.680