Speaker 1: What is up, Fellowsikos, I am Dan Valley coming at
you with my certifyed Tantabulo's co host, mister Grant Hughes.
It's time hashtag accountability season. Grant, We've already done our
Western Conference regrades from the twenty twenty three off season,
so go check those out. We are onto the Eastern Conference,
little East East Coast bias now. Finally, as a reminder
before we throw it to the most important question of
all our grading system, a C is considered average. We
are grading teams relative to the resources and the options
that we believe we're at their disposal. If you're watching
on YouTube, I'll have the graph of some I'll have
the meats and potatoes of what we based our grades
off of. If there's ever anything that did not factor
into our grit, I will point it out, of course
if it would happened to after because we do do
them late in the off season for this reason. But
if it happens later in the off season after the grades,
we will of course factor that in. There's really only
actually for the East, there's really only one team. It's
the Bucks that you really kind of have to go
through and rethink about I believe that's it, though, but
I just want to emphasize that, especially because we're gonna
be doing our off season grades for twenty twenty four
very soon. C is not a bad grade. I just
we get so much shit whenever we give out c's
and we're grading it as a C is average. With that,
mister Grant Hughes, how the heck are you doing.
Speaker 2: I'm just happy to be here to indulge your East
Coast bias. I don't know if that's actually a real
thing since we did do the West first, but.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, actually things we said about the Pistons though.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm just already looking at our grades from last
year and kind of thinking that there's going to need
to be some some walking back also, and also, as always,
I'm almost more interested in trying to piece together what
our thinking was going into these grades a year ago,
because it's I don't know, I guess like a really
responsible person would say, so I don't make the same
mistakes twice, But for me, it's more just like a
little mystery hunt of like, what did I think a
year ago? And why? Because who knows? You know, lots
changed in the year.
Speaker 1: There was some discussion on YouTube in our discord as
well about how we went about grading draft picks, like
factoring those in do we need like a common line
of I think the prevailing consensus is that if there's
more of a decision, it's like the twenty twenty four draft,
as an example, if Zacharyrisiche turns out to be just
an absolute monster, the Hawks deserve more credit for taking
him than the Spurs do Wemby because that was an
actual decision the Hawks needed to make. Is that the
lens through which we're trying to to look at things
just really for my own purses. I don't think I'm
trying to like off rip looking at this Like there
might be some instutes where it's, oh, they could have
went this direction, But I'm just wondering how you want
to just as a uniform approach, how you and I
should be interpreting this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's one side of it which does
make sense, because if it's a no brainer, then like, okay,
so why are we congratulating you for doing the obvious thing?
At the same time, if you go too far the
other way, it's saying it's like unless it's an obvious one,
like we killed the Lakers for the Hoocha Fino pick
because like the next three guys were all way better
than him. But it's like, you really don't want to
go too far down the road of saying, well, Luke
who was still on the board, Like are we gonna
kill every team that didn't pick Yiannis that year?
Speaker 1: You know, it needs to be relative to like who
was who was actually being talked about in that position,
which is also like, let's just say Wenby had turned
out to be just had one of the worst rookie
seasons of all time. I guess you couldn't kill the
Spurs for making that pick because it was considered the pick,
like there was no other decision to make.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think just unfortunately, what this sounds like we're
going to land on is kind of a case by
case basis where you're just weighing a bunch of factors,
like what was the consensus and what were the other options,
and how fair is it to say, well, this guy
that went five picks later would have been way better. Well,
that only matters if someone actually would have considered him
five picks before. So it's just I don't know, I
don't know that we're going to arrive at a bright
line rule. But there is like a little nuance I
think that you just sort of have to accept when
we're talking about draft picks.
Speaker 1: Especially with all that said, let's get to it. We
begin with the Atlanta Hawks, because we did these last
year by division, so we're basically going through this is
the entire East, but we're going into divisional order of
which we published them. So the Atlanta Hawks, Grant drafted
Kobe Buet at number fifteen, and as usual, this is
what we should have preface. We're not going to read
the entire graphic. We're just going to go through the
greatest hits. But they drafted Kobe Buffet at number fifteen.
I remember loving that pick. He barely played for them.
They traded John Collins to Utah for Rudy Guay and
Memphis twenty twenty six second round pick. They also created
a traded player exception, and after that, like they brought
back Wesley Matthews and then they signed to Jontay Murray,
a deal you and I loved at the time and
still love in a vacuum. Four years, one hundred and
seventeen million dollar extension player option on the final season.
You look back at this summer from Atlanta, Grant, how
are you feeling about it now?
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna guess that we were as hard on
the Hawks as we were because this was they ultimately
did some tax ducking. I don't remember specifically which moves involved.
I suppose that John Collins won for Rudy Gay and
a pick was probably a huge part of that, just
because some of the other like the Jontey Murray deal
I don't know by itself is like a B or
a B plus maybe right, we could go even higher.
And the Buffkin at the time where there was no
way to know that Buffkin just wasn't going to really
get a shot, and you certainly liked him. I guess,
like I bet we also penalized them because the just
ultimately what they got for John Collins was so much
worse than what might have been available years earlier.
Speaker 1: Oh, we hammered it home. We talked about like they
sat on this too long, and it was this they
kept marginalizing him further and further, and it was like,
why is his trade value drive?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's another one where I'm not really sure how.
That's another one that might need a little bit of nuance,
you know, like the just the not purposeful, but the
like the devaluation of your own asset, because you just
won't pull a trigger on something. You're just hoping that
you know, his value goes up, or some some sucker
emerges that just needs John Collins and really will give
up at first. I guess. I guess like in the end,
just getting what they got for Collins weighed against what
his peak value might have been or not peak, but
like what they could have got realistically at some point
earlier probably does need to hurt the grade, so we
we both gave him d pluses. I guess, I don't know.
I mean the fact that they moved Murray for to
get a little bit of that pick equity back.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to justify moving that grade up a little bit.
Speaker 1: No, get out of here.
Speaker 2: It's hard to get there.
Speaker 1: There's I think. The one thing I'm willing to overlook
is I still believe in just Kobe Buffkin as like
someone who is okay, if you could finish the basket.
My whole thing is like, well, because you look at
who was drafted after him, It's like literally like Jim
Hawk as Brandon Pajemski, like, those are all guys that
could have helped them. I mean Cam whitmore of course,
So I'm not going to have her them for that.
Pick the demerit here for me is I guess you
could say that Dejonte Murray extension looks better, but knowing
what it turned into for them, it looks better for
the Pelicans than it does for Atlanta, just because they
weren't able to capitalize more on that. The John Collins
trade to me looks worse because it's tax ducking and
then grant what did they use that traded player exception?
Who they use that on?
Speaker 2: Oh fat lot of nothing?
Speaker 1: Yeah, like just like we predicted. And so I'll just
go to a D minus because it's just like this
was more sort of just running in place bullshit, and
it's I wasn't even we weren't at maybe you were.
I wasn't advocating for him to trade de Jonte Murray
last summer. I don't think you would have gotten any
more for him last summer anyway than you did now,
or any more from it to deadline than you did now.
I just this offseason, it doesn't look much worse. But
it's like the theory of it, it's even harder to understand,
in part because Okay, Kobe Bufkin hasn't had an opportunity yet.
Maybe he gets that with the Jontay Murray gone now.
But the bigger thing for me is just you kind
of sold it as like it wasn't a financial reality situation.
It's like, uh no, that's what fueled the John Collins trade.
You sat on him for too long, and look at
how just the rest of this stuff panned out, like
the even the Patty Mills trade. So I'm going to
a D minus just because I was disappointing them in
the moment and one of the things I was clinging
to was beyond Kobe Bufkin was like, well, maybe they
do some other stuff, and it's just like they didn't
with this quote unquote newfound flexibility.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess. I guess I'm struggling with the good.
D plus is a pretty bad grade, and this was
a pretty bad off season. I'm not sure how much
worse it looks today.
Speaker 1: I'll go D then.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, I know, I'm I'm just thinking out loud.
I guess, like, in the interest of being consistent. I
can't move this up because the Hawks kind of just
keep doing all the stuff that we hate so much,
which is just you're unambitious. You care more about ducking
the tax than you know, building the best possible team.
All this stuff. They wait too long to make certain moves.
They they don't you know, Yeah, I guess I'll just
move to a D. It seems a little worse because Buffkin.
I think maybe you know, Buffin didn't do anything to
suggest that that was the correct pick at fifteen. He's
got time obviously, but just it looks a little worse
than it did at the time.
Speaker 1: Him going right in front of Kante George. Again, Keanta
George wouldn't have had the same opportunity in Atlanta they
did not do We bump them up to maybe an
A because they did not take Jalonhood Shaffino.
Speaker 2: We should just grade every team on how close they
came to take a Chaffinoh yeah, let's go. Let's let's
just drop down to a D. There for me.
Speaker 1: The next team after Atlanta will be the Charlotte Hornets.
They did some stuff Grant, Yeah, so I mean big overhaul.
Michael Jordan sold his share of the team. I don't
know how we're gonna necessarily grade that, but probably a
good thing bottom line, based on how poorly his tenure went.
Brandon Miller at number two looking better and better, Nick
Smith at twenty seven, trying to see anything else of
consequence of Miles Bridge just signed the qualifying offer ultimately
re signed. This past offseason, LaMelo Ball got the max
five for two five no player options could get up
to the thirty five percent, but he's not gonna get that.
Oh thirty, that's a type of thirty percent. I apologize,
sign Sign.
Speaker 2: I was laughing at signed Frank Milichino, which is an
all Caps on the Google doc, and PJ Washington back
for three and three for forty eight, which he turned out.
He ended up helping a team, but not necessarily the Hornets.
So Dan, this is another team we really kind of
raked over the coals grade wise. How are you feeling
at a year's remove this time?
Speaker 1: I think I feel better about it, and I mean,
like we I don't know if we destroyed them, but
we were very we hedged. I shouldn't say I don't know.
I heard us. We hedged on Bred and Miller. We
were just like it should have been Scoot. Yeah, and no,
I'm not even there is a world that which Scoot
ends up being. But like Brandon Miller is right there.
So I mean like that was a huge miss for collectively.
That was a huge miss for us. We didn't get
a chance to grade the PJ. Washington contract. That ends
up panning out really well for them because just the
money was always reasonable. But then you flip him in
a trade where you get Grant Williams who helps you
and that twenty twenty seven. I think it's a first
round pick. Isn't there only like top two protection on
it or something? So that ends up being a great
move for them. I would say the Miles Bridges contract,
we said it kind of well, okay, there's the whole
domestic violence issue stuff that was a component of it
for sure, But also now he does his birdwrights were
in transfer, so what is his actual trade value here?
He ends up playing fairly well for them and they
keep him on a deal that I think will be
eminently movable. It's declining in salaries. I would probably call
that like the Miles Bridges outcome. Knowing he's back from
a basketball perspective, that ends up being like an average
or slightly above average move for them, right.
Speaker 2: I suppose, so I do. It's it's probably not fair
to consider it, but I have been asking the question
of who was going to give Miles Bridges more than
he got from Charlotte this offseason? Was it three for
seventy five? Basically, I don't know who was beating that
on the market. But that's a twenty twenty four offseason
great thing. So to get him back, I mean, he's
their third best player if everybody's healthy, right, I mean
maybe second, depending on Brandon Miller. So yeah, I think
that was a good piece of business like that ultimately
for me, just dead wrong on on Brandon Miller being
the incorrect pick over Scoot. I mean, it's just as
it as it stands today. Maybe Scoot's ceiling is higher.
I don't know. It's certainly like I am. I didn't
listen back last year, but I'm sure that a huge
majority of my uh what did I give I was
worse than you. I gave a D minus was just
about like this was this is a this is like
going to set the franchise back for years taking Brandon
Miller at number two. So dead wrong there and didn't
consider the PJA contract.
Speaker 1: I don't know in artifense like that, we were probably
lampooting them, Like how are you not figuring out this
situation so late into the summer. That's if I could
ask you. Though I know I was a supporter on it.
You were fine with it, but now he plays thirty
six games last year? How do you feel about the
lamellow ball? It's a twenty, it's the fun Max, Like,
it's still a Max that starts this year. Are you
feeling better worse? The same about it?
Speaker 2: So as you were talking, I was kind of trying
to like wrangle with that in my head. I think
I think, one, it's just it's just what you do
when you have a player like him. It's still what
teams are doing. See Franz Wagner, Evan Mobley, K Cunningham,
Scottie Barnes, Like this still just happens. We can have
a larger conversation about whether that's the right way to
do things. I'm kind of leaning towards restricted free agency
exists for a reason, you should use it. I do
still think that LaMelo would if you were to trade
LaMelo at this number, you're getting a ton back, right, So,
like just I think the value still there even with
two straight years of a lot of missed time. I
maybe I'm a little lower on it, but not a lot.
I still think I ultimately I just land on you're
not giving up stuff to get off this contract. It's
like nowhere near that level. And he could just come
out and be an All star again like he was
three years ago. And it's this is just, yeah, this
is the going rate for a guy this young, that's
this productive.
Speaker 1: Is it weird that I feel better about it?
Speaker 2: Why have to explain?
Speaker 1: Why? Is so the cap goes up and that's just look,
that makes it look even better. But the bigger thing
for me is so before he gets injured, I know
the actual finishing was still an issue. He was averaging
nineteen drives per thirty six minutes, just by far and
away a career high, getting closer to the basket, more
to the rim more if he's going to get even
if he doesn't get stronger, I just think like having
the ability to get to that third level now for
him makes him a more dynamic score. And you know,
I've always just been higher on the mel than the consensus.
Now the health thing, Okay, he only played in thirty
six games, but like a part of that is like
from stuff that we have heard, is that he just
doesn't trust the medical staff and wasn't the only player.
And guess what, like the Hornets now have a new
medical staff in place. So I look at this and
I realize it's still a gamble, and I think you
could probably if you were looking at it as just
a trade asset, it's worse because all right, there's another
partial season under his belt, so we can say that
ap fine, and that teams would still give up stuff
to get it, but as a trade value proposition, which
I don't think they're looking to use it as if
you were looking to move him. No, he is not
at the peak of value. But as just like a
long term asset. I'm just based off what I saw
last season. I know people have a problem with the
shot selection at points, but just the driving, the getting
more to the basket. I'm like, that's a component of
his game that was not there in the previous three seasons.
Speaker 2: What do you what do you think about the like
off court stuff that has kind of emerged over the
last year plus, where it's not like it's like the
driving stuff like which everyone just is kind of imputed too,
like immaturity or he's like kind of an unserious professional
like that kind of stuff. Is that does knowing a
little more about that stuff even though it's you know,
we're not talking about like crimes or anything like that, Like,
does does that stuff affect you at all? Uh?
Speaker 1: It would a little bit. I do think some of
it's been overblown like that I'm not advocating like trying
to run over children because I just don't think that
that's what he did.
Speaker 2: From what I d does not endorse running down that.
Speaker 1: Situation is being taken like it's not like clearly Walker
Kessler is doing something worse than LaMelo because Utah's hockey
and try to get rid of are So I think
it's it's cause for pause. But like if you're confident
in the culture of your organization, and it really does
seem like Charlotte is hitting different notes on that front now,
and like that could also like the sale was just
like a note like Okay, Michael Jordan's no longer in charge,
but like you have to give Plotkin Schnall credit Jeff
Peterson credit that's again, that's not an off season grade.
It happened in the middle well towards the end of
last year officially, but like what this offseason kind of
forecasts about what they were going to do towards the
trade thenline, it seems even more encouraging, and it feels
like now they have a longer term coach in place
with Charles Lee not part of the grade. I just
with the mellow specifically, if I was a team interested
in trading for him, that stuff isn't really good unless there's,
like we've both heard stuff that like isn't necessarily public,
but unless it's like way worse than all that, it's
just I wouldn't even second guess it.
Speaker 2: So how high are we moving this? I think for
me just just on if we're talking like degree of
difficulty of and rewarding teams for making like the harder
decision taking Miller at two, I'm just gonna move it
up to like a B, which is a huge jump
from a D minus. But that like that was a
hard decision to make and they got it right, And
just more broadly, starting last offseason when some of the
like decision making changed hands, this organization just feels like
it's in going in like a better direction and is
like more well run and so I I mean, you
could talk me into going a little higher, but I
feel pretty good going from a D minus to a B.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm gonna go to I'm tempted to go to
an A. I think I'll settle on a B plus
because the LaMelo extension, I guess is technically debate, but
it's like I'm gonna go to an A minus because
what is what did they miss on here? It's like
over like would there have been like did you need
to like if you wait it out the LaMelo situation,
He's just not a level of player like if Franz Wagner,
if the Magic aren't gonna wait him out, like you're
not gonna wait out LaMelo when you're also not a
franchise as the Hornets that can necestially risk him even
getting a restricted free agency. I guess you could look
at the Nick Smith junior pick doesn't really play a
role when we play a role this year, the thing
that like the thing that really drives it home. I
think PJ Washington contract ended up being like real worked
out really well for them, But like you said it.
The degree of difficulty on the Brandon Miller pick is
just that everyone thought it was nearly consensus. Everyone thought
they should take Scoot, and it's it's at the very
least of debate, at most, it's already been settled and
they made the right pick. Yeah, our next team then
would bring us to the We ripped through Miami Heat.
Speaker 2: Oh, this is interesting.
Speaker 1: So they drafted Jim Hawks at number eighteen. Oh this
is the Oh, I let it see. We're already live live,
we already have the Magic up there. I'm like, I
don't think Jed Howard's on the Miami Heat.
Speaker 2: They drafted on the on the Magic either.
Speaker 1: They drafted hawk Is at number eighteen, resigned Kevin Love.
They signed and traded Max Shrews on a four year,
sixty four million dollars deal to the Calves for the
Lakers twenty twenty six second rounder. They traded victor O
Ladipo in second rounders in twenty twenty nine, twenty and
thirty to Oklahoma City. They created a nine point five
million dollar trade exceptions that they signed Josh Richardson, signed
Thomas Bryant, signed Orlando Robinson. That is the meat and
potatoes other offseason. They were also when we recorded this,
Grant heavily linked to Damian Lillard at the time, and
I don't know if you heard, but Damian Lillard did
not go to the to the Miami Heat.
Speaker 2: Man, what do we do with this one? Because basically
we tvd'd this to some extent, but we also gave
them a D minus from you and an F from
me respectively last summer. I guess, so let's start at
the top. The Hawke ass pick, great.
Speaker 1: Pick saved them from an F right like that?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Like that's that was. It was kind of regarded as,
oh my god, the Heat just how did they get
this guy? And then he kind of delivered on exactly
what he was billed as. It's just a ready to
go like veteran rookie somehow who is just looks like
a rotation guy for the next ten years and maybe more.
I don't know, but man, like it's hard to get
I guess. Maybe the question is like, was it fair
to just kill them for not for the Blazers choosing
not to trade them Damian Lillard like that that, you
know what I mean? Like there's a there's a weird
disconnect there. But the Heat did do a lot of
other stuff letting talent go that seemed like it was
in anticipation of this move that didn't ultimately happen. So
they're kind of responsible or not kind of they are
responsible for putting themselves in that position. I guess maybe
I don't know. Maybe I'm just not feeling as harsh
right now. I mean, it is just is it still
an F? Can it be that bad? Is that where
we are?
Speaker 1: It can't be an F When they got Hake's right.
Speaker 2: You wouldn't think. But it's just weighed against the Damian
Lillard trade that wasn't I g Yeah, I guess maybe
it just can't be a flat failing grade because they
did they did really well on an important part of
team building, and they drafted a guy, you know, two
thirds of the way through the first round who was,
you know, one of their five best players last year probably.
Speaker 1: And I so they ended up did they end up
paying attacks this past year because they were under it
when we were recording. I think I'm looking at saying
they ended up, which I can't even understand why they
would do that. It looks like they were they were
into the attacks, but like eight hundred grand this year,
that can't be right.
Speaker 2: That seems wrong.
Speaker 1: So I look, letting the Max Shreus thing, we even
with the benefit of like, oh look what Duncan Robinson
became like during that kind of NBA Finals run. And
then there's some more pullback on Duncan Robinson as he
banged up at points last year, Like that was just
terrible asset management to me. With the Max Shruce trade,
that's just not enough to And like Josh Richardson was fine,
Orlando Robinson okay, fine, I Kevin Love worked out well
for them. I probably would go go to and so
I guess the the question would be the what opportunities
did they pass on aside from keeping Max Strus.
Speaker 2: Maybe gave Vincent, like although he plays on eleven games
last year, like he you know, he goes to another
team and has heard you could imagine he would have
had the same knee stuff had he stayed in Miami.
So like losing gave Vincent, is that was that a loss?
Like certainly not last year. It wasn't whoever played in
that roster spot was more valuable just by default. The
Strue thing that did just feel like letting talent go. Yeah,
I don't know. I obviously have to move up from an.
Speaker 1: F you seem so sad about.
Speaker 2: Well, this is a really hard one, just just because
the Dame stuff at the time we did this last
year was so fresh and it seemed like such a
potential like catastrophe for a team that, by the way,
is coming off a Finals trip at the time we
were talking about him, and they were way worse last year.
So I just I don't know.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you this, do you think it was
the right call to see? Like, did Damian Lillard sweep
steaks definitely impacted their thinking? I'm sure with how they
went about the Like if you would have told them
at the beginning of the off season, no, you're not
getting Damian Lillard. Is Max Struce still here? I honestly
don't know. But like, if if you missed out on
other opportunities because you were so heavily involved in the
Damian Lillard sweepstakes, do you think it was worth wait,
if you're sitting in like trying to think back in
that moment, you probably just wait on that because he
made so much sense, and so if you missed opportunities
that way, I think I'm probably inclined to go with
like a D plus or C. Like the Hi may
Hawk is picked, we can't over like they drafted someone
outside the lottery. He's just in the rotation immediately and helping.
Speaker 2: Them, and like C minus. Actually that's kind of where
I was leaning, just it's not an average offseason because
you did sort of plan for this big thing that
didn't happen. And me, but like how much did they
really lose like Vincent Struce. Yeah, you'd like to have
those guys back, but ultimately like needle movers really like
not not really.
Speaker 1: You know. The thing I could be critical for them with,
specifically to max Strus, is that they lack when you
go through like this was an is last year too,
Like when you look at their contracts like they're only
built for a mega move. It's just like they don't
have a ton of there's Duncan Robinson. I think he
classifies like, all, right, nineteen point four million now eighteen
point two million last year. That's kind of like a
mid end contract. But it's just you know, Terry Rozier now,
but Tyler Hero at twenty five plus, I'm thirty plus
for BAM out of bio and like Jimmy's making a
ton of money and then it's everyone's just oh, Kevin
Love on basically the minimum or Hamy Hawk is on
his rookie scale. They just don't have conventional salary matching
tools and like Max Shrews could have been like that
type of tool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fair. I think that justifies a below.
Speaker 1: We're gonna we're in agreement with a.
Speaker 2: I guess a C minus minus sounds good to me.
I don't know what that means.
Speaker 1: So, oh you heard Siri?
Speaker 2: Apologies, it did series weighing in.
Speaker 1: So we're bumping the Miami Heat up to a C
minas and do we have anything else on them? Or
is it time to actually go onto the Urlino magic.
Speaker 2: Let's hit the magic. So a couple of lottery picks
Anthony Blacketts, Jed Howard eleven traded number thirty six, Andre
Jackson Junior, who I'm kind of a fan of, to
the bucks for cash in a twenty thirty second Joe
Engles two years twenty two. Not on the team anymore?
What was it was a team option? They declined Mo
Wagner not like just there because of whose brother is
actually has played like good bits for him.
Speaker 1: I was just we just did the Orlando Magic look ahead.
I don't know when it's going up people, but there's
little people on the curtains, And I was somehow mo
Vogner is like once every third game does something that
makes you think that, how is this not a superstar?
Like this isn't like he just does something every third
game that feels that way.
Speaker 2: And then every fourth game he like tries to incite
violence by irritating the opponent.
Speaker 1: Somehow, I feel like that's like every game.
Speaker 2: Maybe yeah, he didn't he go he basically went into
Detroit's bench. Was that two years ago and just was
throwing haymakers? You remember that. That was amazing. So we
give him an a right for inciting violence? Wave bulbull.
That's the last thing we'll say. Okay, so we I'm
curious what we thought about this. Where's Orlando alphabet?
Speaker 1: This was like we were we actually differed pretty much.
I gave him a C. You gave him a D plus.
I think sort of in retrospect, if you want to
stick with a D plus, you just kind of have
to harp on, Okay, like should they have been like
what opportunities did they put because everything else they did
was just kind unless you're that I mean you were
pretty Andre Jackson apparently, but jonath know, everything else feels
wildly non controversial. But also it's okay anti blocks in
the rotation, but not really playing a ton of minutes
last year and in fury is not what they needed.
Like there's probably he has room to do more on offense,
and he did hit his threes, but he took a
negligible amount of them. Jet Howard again in theory, exactly
what they need, didn't play really last year, spends the
entire season in asciola, So I don't know how to
square that away. I like them O Wagner move. The
Joe Ingles move wound up making a ton of sense
because you were using him to run your offense for stretches.
But this is just like I don't want this pass
off season to let it infect my perception of last
off season, but it's at some point take a fucking
bigger swing than this, Orlando. I'm willing to give them
more of a pass last year. Though. The final thing
I'll say, boy throw do is because they didn't. It
was kind of the let's get more information stage and
now it's like, Okay, you've been to the playoffs, we
lost exactly how we all knew that you were going
to lost in Cleveland. So I don't know, Like I
still don't know what I'm gonna do with this grade,
but I like, I don't do you look at this
off season and say, oh, it's still a d off.
Speaker 2: Season kinda uh, the only thing that gives me that's
making me reconsider a little bit. And this is kind
of a broader question. I'm curious about your take on it. Obviously,
Orlando had a hugely successful season last year and got
a lot better. So do they deserve any credit for
kind of letting things marinate for the most part and
not you know what I mean, Like, clearly they believed
in the talent they had because they didn't swing a
big deal. They took a couple guys that like, yeah,
they might help, but you know they could have packaged
those two picks to move up or what or whatever.
They didn't take a big swing, and like the results
were I don't know what. You know, if you pulled
magic fans and said, like, what would you be happy
with ahead of last season? Like ninety five percent of
them would have been pretty like satisfied with where the
Magic ended up. So I don't know it, Like just
if you go down the list of transactions, like nothing
is wowing you, and they all look other than the
maybe the Wagner like sixteen million dollar deal don't look
any better now, Like the Black pick looks worse. I
would say the Jet Howard pick looks worse than it did,
although a lot of people didn't like that at the time.
But the bottom line was the Magic got way better,
and so maybe maybe that means they should grade out
slightly higher. But I think if we kind of if
we use that logic more often, we'll just give better
grades to teams that won more games, like regardless of
what they did in the offseason. I don't know if
that's where we want.
Speaker 1: To just I guess what I struggle with when you
look at Black and Howard's Like, let's say I they
would have went with Grady Dick, which is who I
would have picked if I were them, and I still
think that would have been the right pick. They clearly weren't.
I mean, especially with the way Grady Dick started the
season in Toronto, would they have played him more. And
so it seems like this plan because looking at just
the way they used Anthony Black too, was you already
laid it out and so it doesn't matter like they
could have picked and I think it's unfair to go
this route because they were drafted so far out far back,
but they could have taken Jaimehawks or Brandon Perjeenski, and
like those guys probably still wouldn't have played for them.
It seems like so I feel like I might stick
with a C because my impressions haven't changed at all.
I'm very anti Black is going to be a fantastic
defender and he has the ability to guard wings. I actually,
for when I was doing a redraft, I looked into
a lot of what Jet Howard was doing in Asciola
spoiler and I don't typically watch magic G League games apologize,
but like I could see a lot of the stuff
he's doing translating to like the actual magic. I just
wonder if are they too married to this idea of
everybody on the court needs to be like a really
defender and it's almost like Da've doubled down on that
with KACP and it's at some point the value as
you're able to insulate literally anyone else you want to
pop into those those lineups. So I think I'm gonna
stick with the seed because I don't know that I feel, yeah,
what I'd liked to have seen them now that we
have the benefit of hindsight. It's so at number six,
specifically what should have been the pick? Then if you
don't like the black pick, that's the problem.
Speaker 2: So I'm moving to a C minus because I think
if I were to stay at a D plus or
move down, it would be basing it way too much
on just frankly, what's not enough information still on those
two picks, and I don't have the obvious guy that
would have been the correct pick. Trade up, trade down
like those are, those are all in play. I'm ultimately
just giving them more credit for trusting in what they had,
which looks like the right decision.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm I can't wait to see what your thoughts
are going to be about this past offseason for them,
me too. Next up on our regrade train is the
Washington Wizards, who just did a whole bunch of shit
started firing up that rebuilding machine. They fired Tommy Sheppard,
then hired Michael Winger as president of Monumental Basketball, so
that includes the Mystics as well as the Wizards, and
then they hired Will Dawkins as a general manager. They
traded number nine, which was Jars Walker and Sacramento's twenty
thirty second rounder, to Indiana for number eight Blah Coolibali.
They traded Bradley Beal, Jordan Goodwin, and Isaiah Todd to
the Sons for Chris Paul, Landry Shammett, four first round swaps,
four seconds, and cash. They then traded Chris Paul to
the Dubs for Jordan Poole, a twenty twenty seven second
and then a top twenty protected twenty thirty first round
pick that does not spill over like that thing is
because of when it was traded like it just if
it doesn't convey it's turns into a second. I believe
they traded number fifty seven, Trace Jackson Davis to the
Dubs for cash, cash considerations for Trace Jackson Davis. I'm
interested to see how Grant feels about that. They traded
Chris Tops to the Celtics. It was a multi team deal.
It landed the Wizards, Danilo Gallinari, Mike Muscala, number thirty five,
Julian Phillips and Tias Jones. They also created a twelve
point four million dollar trade exception at the time. They
then traded Julian Phillips to the Bulls for seconds. In
twenty twenty six and twenty twenty seven, in what was
one of the more unexplicable moves by Chicago, they signed
Jared Butler and Geno Mauri do had two A deals.
They signed Kyle Kuzman to a four year, ninety million
dollar contract with no player options and it declines in salary.
And they also acquired Monte Morris from Detroit for basically
a twenty twenty seven second rounder, or they traded Monte
Morris to Detroit excuse me, for a twenty twenty seven
second rounder. Grant we were I think the word is
elated that the Wizards ended a rebuild finally with felt
like a long overdue rebuild. I gave them a B plus.
You gave them a B minus. How do you feel
about what they did looking back?
Speaker 2: I gave him an A minus. I think broad strokes
still we would agree. They ripped the band aid off,
they traded Bill. They they're reorienting, They're finally they're not
they're not chasing them all that stuff. I think that
still means their grade is going to be high. There
were just like hits and misses on the way. Right.
They got what they could for bel which was just
like to get anything for him because that you know,
the no trade clause. The durability like just moving off
of that was if they did nothing else great, like
that's that was. That was the move that had to
happen for Washington to like eventually become like a functional
franchise again. So that's the biggest Like, that's that's on
the marquee. The get taking back Jordan Poole, which looks
like a terrible contract now for like not a whole lot.
That pick I think is kind of it's like a fake.
It's like the fakest of fake first round picks. The
Porzingis trade, I guess, like clearly the leverage of his
player option though, yeah, that's what I mean. It's hard
to it's like, oh my god, like he mattered so
much for the team that won the title, Like how
did how is this all you got? It's not I
don't know which way to go with that. The Kusma deal,
I guess maybe still looks fine the declining salary, but
like they did not trade him for future assets, so
but that could still happen. I think we would agree
the cool getting cool Bali is better than getting Jaris
Walker based on last year. So I don't really see
even though there are some like the Jordan Poole thing
is one that's giving me like some real hesitation, but
I still just overall, the Wizards did what they were
supposed to do, so I'm just gonna leave it as
an A.
Speaker 1: I think I'm with you leaving with a B plus
because I probably feel better about what the front office
looks like. And it's weird. So Danny Avia trade. We
both love Denni Afdia, and part of me wondered, like
are you and I understand this is a regrade of
the twenty three offseason, but this front office in place,
like our impressions of them, like they're the ones making
that move. The fact that they took a twenty twenty
nine first back is primary compensation. I know they got
number fourteen and got pub Carrington, but like that was
in a draft or like no one really wanted, Like
Portland was a team that's bad and traded a lottery,
like you just don't see that happen. So the fact
that they took as a primary form of compensation such
a distant first rounder made me think, Okay, yeah, ten
Leonsis could still come in and fuck this up for them,
but they're gonna have the stomach to really think in
broad strokes, in big picture terms, So I feel better
about that. But then I'm also I look at the
roster now this is all about the front office, and
I'm like, why so many veterans? Yes, type deal, So
I'm gonna stick with a B. Plus I'm with you
like the I mean, the one that could really come back,
but it's just so hard to know at the time.
Giving like Trace Jackson Davis could have helped them. Slash
would help them right, like he could play next to
Alex Aar right now, rather than having Yanna Shallen shoot
it still to give up that pick for cash. But
we've also done this before where we fall in love
with a late second round pick after one year and
they kind of fade from existence. So I mean, the
direction is a big one, but like just some of
the stuff on the margins, like I mentioned the Julian
Phillips thing did nothing for Chicago, and yet the Washington
got two seconds out of him. So just I thought
they had a good offseason. I guess I'm higher on
the Kyle Kuzma contract than you. I think if they
wanted to move it, like I'm assuming they would get
like at least one good first round like not a
top twenty protected first round pick type deal.
Speaker 2: You'd hope so, And I mean that's the thing is
they've got quite a bit of runway to still do that,
which which, like you know, again, is maybe a reason
to view that contract a little more favorably. Yeah, I
don't know if we're gonna be consistent at all, and
we're just gonna kill these teams for not you know,
pulling the ripcord. We gotta just we gotta reward the
ones that do it right.
Speaker 1: And it's also they stuck with it, and it's we
tend to I think collectively, not necessarily saying you and I,
although I'm sure I do it. At times, we probably
over romanticized teardowns because it feels like they're easier to
complete than the than the assent. But like a year later,
I don't feel any worse about. If anything, I feel
better about the Wizard's direction, even though I haven't agreed
in full with everything, and that that takes subject is
subject to self destruct if they don't give black Ulabali
like a double usage rate compared to his rook the season.
Speaker 2: All right, Boston Celtics, this is gonna be h for
one of us a little harder than the other.
Speaker 1: Oh man, can we skip this team? Please?
Speaker 2: No? This is I mean, well, I don't know how
long this needs to go. Uh So traded Marcus smart
Gallo Mike Mscala thirty five, which was Julian Phillips for
Porzingis to number twenty seven, which is Marcus Sasser Golden
States twenty twenty four first with top four protection. Sasser
then goes basically to becomes James Nauji in two seconds
more or less? Do I have that right? Not? Not
super important here? Oh and then James Naje. I forgot
about all this and they just kept just moving down.
James Naji becomes Jordan Walsh and Dallas is twenty four
second signing trader Grant Williams to Dallas. What did they
get back out of that?
Speaker 1: Dallas second?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Two seconds one from San Antonio one from Dallas
got a trade exception out of it, signed O shaper
Sett and don o'banton, both guys I like, uh, neither
of like.
Speaker 1: Benton too, so yeah, uh.
Speaker 2: Jalen Brown got the five year, two eighty eight no
player options. What we did not have at the time,
which will be you know, seems relevant. They traded Malcolm
Brogden Robert Williams the third of twenty four first which
we came bu bub Carrington rerouted to Washington via Portland
in the twenty twenty nine first for one Drew Holiday.
Speaker 1: I feel like I should just grab the talking stick
for this one. So I gave them.
Speaker 2: I mean, I didn't love the offseason. I just liked
it a little more than you, So go ahead.
Speaker 1: I So, I want to make it clear. We said
this after the fact when we talked about the new
Holiday trade. We felt a lot better about Boston after
that trade. But if you go back to the Boston
Celtics look ahead that I did, I still was harping
on the concerns of it still feels like they might
be at a playmaking deficit. What if christophs Porzingis just
doesn't stay healthy and it just like it's an A
and it was just what is the argument? What did
they do wrong this offseason? I just I guess it
has to be in a plus they won the title
and two of the guys that they acquired last offseason,
and in hindsight, the christophs porzingis trade, even knowing that
he's about to miss a bunch of time to start
this coming season, it's a home run because the opportunity
cost was so low. It did not as some people speculated,
like prevent you from extending Derek White or get into like, oh,
do we need to break up the J's when Jalen
Brown's extension is gonna kick in. That stuff hasn't happened.
What like when you look at this offseason, what is
there to feel like if you're really high on Marcus Sasser, Okay, sure,
but like he's not a backup point guard. He's more
of kind of an off guard who can shoot. And
so I just I missed on this. They I think
you could still argue that they clearly have like, Okay,
there's some playmaking concerns, but like they're also just having
a bunch of above average playmakers for their position rather
than a true floor general, like, oh hey, it fucking
works because you have four guys in your starting lineup
that can do it, maybe three and a half depending
on how you view Jalen Brown, like between Tatum and
White and Drew Holliday. So we have to bump this
up to an A plus. I don't know what there
is to just dislike we were concerned about, Oh, get
getting rid of Grant Williams makes sense when you have
this injury. Pron christops Forzingis and Horford's like ninety No
it didn't. So shout out to the Boston Celtics. I was,
this is probably one of my bigger misses just because no,
I gave them like an average grade basically, but they
just and I've said this to you a bunch of
times now, they went. Everyone including myself, was like kind
of worried about them or looking for reasons not to
believe in them. And I think we're just going to
look back as like that is collectively a generational team,
Like they had a generational season that we just all
couldn't accept at face value. For so long, we were
conditioned to be skeptical and we really just shouldn't have
been and Finally, the level of difficulty it must have taken,
even from just an emotional standpoint, because I know Marcus
Smart declined to make that call specifically to move him
when they did. The degree of difficulty on that is
through the roof, and so it goes from a C
minus to an A plus for me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I had him at a B before, not including
the Holiday trade. It probably would have been an A
I think had that been included. So I and then
SO factor that in, and then all the all the
biggest moves they made just worked out better than even
I thought they would. Like Porzingis mattered so much more
than you could have ever foreseen, just because of the
way they used him and the dimension that he added,
and then Holiday was so perfect. And Jalen Brown, it's like,
oh is he worth it? Well, he's Finals MVP now,
So I guess I guess that turns out that that
was a worthwhile expense. So it's just an A plus.
I mean, everything Boston did exceeded, you know, what you
would have expected, just at like a base level. And
like some of the stuff, like you said, was bold,
like trading Marcus Smart, even though you know a lot
of Boston people would say like he wasn't the same guy,
and he kind of didn't let the Jays kind of
like take the locker room over. He was kind of
a good, you know, little give and take in terms
of his like off court presence. I think like he
was still you couldn't really talk about Marcus Smart without
saying the words hard and soul like at some point,
and they moved him and got back another injury prone
guy in Porzingis. I'm just trying to make like the
Devil's advocate case for why their work question, but all
of them were answered just to a ridiculously positive degree.
Speaker 1: And by the way, the other thing is we could
have just framed it this way. They traded three of
the top six members of their rotation, which you just
don't see like up a team at that level do.
And then finally we haven't really mentioned it. The Jailn
Brown extension was like that was debated to no when
and then he just goes and wins finals MVP. So like,
I it's just what a joke by me? That's all
just shout out to me for just missing.
Speaker 2: I'm sure I got one of those in here somewhere.
Speaker 1: It didn't include the drew Holiday trade. I feel like
I probably would only bumped them up to like a B.
I don't even know if I would have been in
at a B plus at that time before being brutally honest.
Our next team up is the Brooklyn Nets. They drafted
Noah Clowney at number twenty one. They drafted Dureek Whitehead
at number twenty two. See I did it again, Grant.
I told you this was gonna happen, that I was
gonna get not stay on top of stopping the slides.
They drafted Jail and Wilson at number fifty one, time
into a two way. Actually really liked that move in hindsight.
Signed Cam Johnson a four year, ninety four point five
million dollar contract, no player options. Ninety million of that
is guaranteed. They traded Joe Harris and two second rounds
picks basically to Detroit. That's not basically, That's what they
did created the tpe. They traded Patty Mills and Milwaukee's
twenty twenty eight second round out to Houston for their
own twenty twenty four second round pick. Back. They signed
Dennis Smith Junior. They signed Minnie Walker the fourth. They
signed Darius Baisley. That is the crux of their offseason grant,
and we looked at it and we're just kind of
like mah Y, I game A see game of C plus.
How you how are you feeling about it? Now?
Speaker 2: I'm thinking I gave them the met plus because I
like Dennis Smith Junior and Lonnie Walker on minimums, and like,
I think the lesson from Phoenix is you can't really
let minimum signings, no matter how good of a value
that you think they are way into these things. I
don't know, maybe that'll get proven wrong this offseason and
I'll have to reevaluate the Cam Johnson deal. Would you
say the Cam Johnson contract looks better or worse today
than it did a year ago.
Speaker 1: I think it looks fine. Maybe the same feel like
people are just they still seem to be dinging him
because he wasn't super young when he was drafted. I
just because Cam Johnson does everything that Cam Johnson is
supposed to do as kind of a shooter, can do
a little bit stuff on the ball, and he's not
gonna submarine your defense. So I don't understand what the
And that's just like the going rate for those guys. Now,
I mean, unless you're you're viewing it through the lens
of like, oh, Gary Trent Junior who got the minimum
this year. It's like, Okay, the market's gonna fall out
from under some guys. I do you feel worse about it?
Is that why you were asked?
Speaker 2: No, it's kind of the same. I was kind of
looking for help there. I would say, I'll leave him
at a C plus. And it's not because of the
minimums anymore. It's because I actually think I like Noah
Clowney a lot more today than I did a year ago.
So just it's above average, I mean, nothing super consequential there.
Speaker 1: I actually also think that they might have found a
rotation player in Jalen Wilson, and so I'll go C
plus as well. I think the only thing you could
potentially not the only thing, but one of the things
you could harp on is well, they knew that last
season was going to play out the way it did, Like,
why not tear it down sooner? It's I'm just assuming
current tear down doesn't even happen unless that Houston trade
is available.
Speaker 2: To right, they had no incentive to tank lash. They
don't have the picks, so.
Speaker 1: Obviously they might deserve credit for not trying to double down.
They did some financial maneuvering, so if you were, you know,
if you're lamenting the absence of those seconds, but they
might deserve I don't know how you square their way,
but like, do they deserve any credit for not like
resisting the temptation to go out and get just anyone
to increase their immediate chances?
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe, because you could you could imagine teams doing
that where it's like, well, what there's what's what's what's
the point in just you know, packing it in, we
might as well try. And they didn't do that, And
and then like, we can't credit them obviously for getting
the twenty five and twenty six first back because that
obviously happened like a few weeks ago. I don't know.
It still feels like above average getting into the B
range for that offseason would feel excessive to me.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go be minus though I'm not. I like Eric,
I hope they I hope they played Noah Clowney and
Nick Claxon together a bunch, because that might be the
most like switchable dual big front court.
Speaker 2: And that's a fun that's a funny.
Speaker 1: After the Brooklyn Nets, we get to your New York Knicks.
Speaker 2: My I'm just looking, Okay, what do we do last year? Okay? Interesting,
I'm curious what we thought so sign Josh Hart four
years eighty one million, which was that.
Speaker 1: Was because I guess we're back At the time, it
was only like in the ether. It wasn't actually official,
So I don't know how heavily we might have factored
it in. I think we I believe we treated it
when I was listening back is like it was done,
but we never really clarified.
Speaker 2: In hindsight, was that kind of the harbinger of of
like all the Villanova guys taking like Jalen Brunson taking
less because it wasn't a situation where Heart had a
little more flexibility and didn't really need to wait to
do this. I can't remember the I think it was like.
Speaker 1: The way that he went about it was like the
fact that it ended up being another Villanova guy probably
should have been the clue that like, oh he did this,
it gave the NIXT more flexibility to use the non
taxpayer mid level and it was for that guy from Villanova.
But like we didn't. We probably made the joke about
connecting the dots at some point of the season, but like,
that was not it wasn't. Oh, they got Dante Devincenzo
because Josh Hart did this. Mccaut bridge is next.
Speaker 2: We probably at least thought that. Okay, anyway, up, I
will say we dely did not think that Jelen Bruns
was going to take this extensione.
Speaker 1: We dismissed it before it was even a rumor. And
then the news comes out that he was like reports
where that he was gonna take it, and we were
just like, nah, we'll believe it. Let me see it, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean, let's I don't think anyone else
is going to do that. So Obi Toppin to Indy
for a couple of least favorable seconds in twenty eight
twenty nine, Dante de Vincenzo got the mid level. Right,
it was at the full mid level four years forty
nine point nine. Uh, that's looking pretty good. Uh. Signed
Nathan Night, Jalen Martin, Dylan Windler, what else? Signed Jacob Toppin,
which they just did again this past offseason. And that's
pretty much it, right, That's that's all we had to
go on. You had them at a C. I had
him at a C minus. I have no recollection of
why I went below average. We gotta feel a lot
better about it now, if only the de Vincenzo signing
was just one of the best anybody made all summer.
Speaker 1: We and they still deserved to merit for this. They
held on to Obi top in too long. It was
written in the stars that he was gonna need to
be moved. And it's fine that they ended up doing
a solid because of like the whole agency relationship, and
he ended up flourishing by his standards in Indiana. But
like looking at it from an asset management perspective, you
knew Julius Randall was there. You knew that that wasn't
going to change, so you know you drafted him with
the intention of assuming of trading Julius Randall. So even
if you couldn't have predicted the Julius Randall breakout, to
hold on for him for as long as you did
without really ever giving him like a massive role. I
understand he wasn't a fit for the team. They still
deserve it to merit for it. But we missed on
I don't we missed on the Dante diven I did anyway.
I remember writing that people are viewing Dante Devincenzo was
the second coming of Steph Curry and New York for
his force basing, and he's not that and what does
he become in New York? It was, And it's funny
because it's like they're the piece that came out about
how Steph Curry kind of helped him, like with all
the stuff that he's doing as a shooter. So I
think you look back at this and some of the
we we did not subscribe to this, but a lot
of people were this was the summer they needed to
make the big move YadA, YadA, YadA. We talked about
at length who did they pass on? What was available
to them that they punted on by going this route.
So we did not hammer them for not making a
bigger trade because I don't like, look at what happened,
Like they weren't a James Harden team, Like they weren't
really og Ananobe they were linked to, but we were.
They eventually got them, just like well that's.
Speaker 2: The other thing, Like that's a great point because if
the criticism was you didn't take a big swing, well
they kept the powder dry and they end up with
og Annobi and mckal bridges down the line.
Speaker 1: So it's part of that was Emmanuel quickly not getting
an extension made him easier to trade, and so that
probably needs to bump up their their grade quite a bit.
I mean, I think Josh Hart, that's probably I love
Josh Hart, but like that extensions probably like an average move, right,
maybe slightly above water, just like he's thet traid to shoot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's he's he was so valuable for them
and like in a way that I don't know if
you could swap in another guy with similar skills, making
the same money and get like what they got from
him last year. He was such a defining figure. I
don't know how you weigh any of that, like dollars wise,
but it is like it is feels like that's about right,
but considering the the intangibles, like, okay, I think that's
still a positive deal for the Knicks. I don't know
if that would be true if he were on another team,
Like that's just I don't know how you weigh that,
but this is like just just I think the more
I think about it, what you said about not making
the move that allowed you to wait and make a
much better set of moves down the line. In addition
to de Vincenzo, this got it, this has gotta go
way up at least for me, which I had a
C minus. This is this is like minimum B plus
for me, maybe even A.
Speaker 1: I was gonna go after talking through that's what I
was gonna go with A minus after talking through the
immanual quickly stuff. And also I don't think I mean,
just look at what the percentage of salary cap that
Dante Devincenzo's going to And by the way, Jalen Brunson
goes on to accept the pay cut that basically amounts
to one Dante Devincenzo per year for the next three years.
It's just like, I just that that's gonna I mean,
with three years left on it, that's gonna that has
to be one of the best contracts in the league,
right of like non rookie scale division.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's really good. I'll go as just just
because I don't I mean, I guess if you're gonna
knock him, it's the like you said, the topping thing
out of side, out of mind, like they you know,
I I just.
Speaker 1: Going to give them a lot more for Obi Top
and I think they still could have gotten more at
some point. I don't think they passed on like a
lot of like a top ten protected first that just
wasn't that wasn't gonna be out there for By.
Speaker 2: The way, it's an a plus offseason for Obi Top
because he got to the one team that was willing
to pay him this contract that he just got.
Speaker 1: Actually back to back a plus off seasons for Obi
Toppin gets to the team and then gets the money
from the team and the.
Speaker 2: Post good job by him.
Speaker 1: Uh, we are on to the Philadelphia seventy six ers.
They did some stuff Grant, They fired Doc Rivers, hired
Nick Nurse, They signed Mobamba, they signed Patrick Beverley. They
did resign Mantres Harrold, who tores acl He was then waived.
They matched an offer sheet on Paul Reid for three
years twenty five and a half million. The second two
years only became guaranteed if Philly won the opening round
of the twenty twenty four playoffs. They did not, And
yeah that's the So the James Harden trade, he was
traded in season, so at this time he had opted
in the trade demand was there. We ended up talking
about that obviously, and we gave them an F slash
TBD on it, So we penciled in F. But we
called it a TVD because we need to see how
that James Harden trade played out in retrospect. Grant, how
did this offseason play pat out for the Sixers?
Speaker 2: I have no idea what to do with this because
I almost want to give him another TBD since they
just rebuilt the whole team in the wake of the
Hard and trade that freed up money. I mean, like
I guess, I guess, well, well, we can't do anything
with the Harden trade, right. This is the hardest thing
to talk about because we've all talked offline about this,
like what is this an off season thing? Do you
penalize them for not trading him in the off season?
Speaker 1: So we pean a lot or are before we went
with a TVD. But like part of the grade was
you're doing nothing to like improve Joelmbe's prime and now
you're sitting on this whole James Harden situation. We also
had to grade. Okay, there was clearly some level of miscommunication.
I don't know if they lied to him, but like
where did the communication break down? But I think what
we have to factor in is the decision to wait.
Don't grade the James Harden trade package, but they decided
to wait it out. Is their off season and their
current position better off because they did that? I think
the answer is yes, because while they didn't get Terrence Mann,
you got off PJ. Tucker. You he went to a
team that was able to send you back basically all
expiring money. And so it's set up this offseason and
so I do think they're kind of intertwined. You don't, like,
I understand what you're saying. In terms of factoring it in,
you could ask, well, should they have just made that
move sooner so you didn't have the distraction? Sure? But
by also holding out as long as they did, like,
they checked most of the boxes that they have distant
Clippers first round equity now and then they set the
stage for the offseason that we just witnessed, which was
a masterclass in salary cap management and talent acquisition. And
by the way, they wound up setting James Harden to
the team and then poach that teams like, because part
of it was why would you trade James Hard and
the Clippers. If you want Paul George, you're circling him
as part of your tap space when you just made
that team better, and it's well, did you kind of
lay the groundwork for making sure George left?
Speaker 2: That's three D chess there. Did they sign? Was Kelly
Ubra a minimum signing last year? Is that not on here?
Or did? I?
Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, so no, you're not imagining that. So they
got Kelly Bridgnior at the minimum? I apologized including that.
Speaker 2: That No, that that's good, I mean what they so?
And again another like road not taken thing, like maybe
they do deserve credit for not signing anybody to long
term money, which set them up this summer to just
just redo the whole team basically, including getting Paul George.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's obviously not an f because they did
emerge from the hardened situation looking probably better than I
don't know, I imagine, because they just did find that
Clippers team that wanted him and nobody else seemed to.
This has gotta be are we going above average here?
I just don't.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Like the other thing to consider is like,
think about what Joel Embiid looked like under Nick Nurse
as a pastor specifically, just.
Speaker 2: Rivers to Nurse is just an upgrade, flat out right,
like that's Nurses just a better coach, and certainly was
better for Embiid and certainly was better if you weren't
going to just spam picking rolls with Harden and Embiid,
which was not going to happen because Harden was going
to be gone. I'm tempted to go, like tempted to
go be minus just because it was like remarkable to
get off of Harden, even if it happened later and
set yourself up. I mean, think about this, Think about
how difficult the decision must have been to essentially, in
a lot of ways, say Joel Embiid, we're not gonna
put the best possible team around you this year in
your prime. You're just gonna have to trust us we
will do that in a year. And they, I mean,
we haven't seen the twenty four to twenty five six ers,
but they kind of pulled it off. So maybe we're
getting too far into the weeds. But but like the
other happen if you don't get buy in, and so
it just feels like a feels like a B minus
I'm gonna go B minus.
Speaker 1: Here, so I'm gonna go to an a wow. I
think the other things that we haven't talked about yet
is you have to convince or get Tyree's Maxi on
board while all this is happening with not signing his extension,
and so to do that, like to have the level
to get the level of trust from that player who
is one represented by Clutch and Rick Paul and then
two to get that buy in while you're dealing with
a hardened situation of him claiming that you broke a
promise to give him X amount of money or whatever
it was. I just it to me, that's not it's
tough because of the domino effect. Without but without doing
all those things, the waiting, the not signing Tyre's actually
convincing him to be on board, you set the stage
for what this team became. And by the way, the
other thing our logic behind it when we were talking
about it, and you just mentioned it too, is that
you were kind of punting like that tough conversation with
Joel Embiid. But even if Joell Ebie was on board,
you still kind of could have viewed as well. You
just kind of wasted, like you made it a gap
year when he doesn't have gap years to give. But
also it ended up not really being a gap year
because Joel Ebe got injured and look at what they
were before he got injured, like Tyrese Maxi was like
borderline all NBA last season. So I like all that
stuff factoring in. It wasn't perfect because they probably could
have won. About the James Harden situation differently, and would
this same deal, Like the thing that is impossible, at
least from my perspective to figure out is did by waiting?
Like what did they gain by waiting? It wasn't Terrence Man,
It probably wasn't first round equity when you look like
what they got back was it, Oh, we were able
to get PJ. Tucker's money off and that wasn't originally
gonna happen. So that's what I'm never like, if that
same deal was available to them, you know when we
were doing these grades, then yeah, you probably should have
just taken it if that's what you wound up accepting.
But everything else you did, like it really did pave
the way for just an incredible off season from them
this year.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Maxi I totally forgot about the Maxi thing,
and it is now my personal crusade to get teams to,
you know, convince players they do want to keep to
go that route and it's so hard to do so
that I've got to go what did I say, be
my yeah, I'm going much higher than that. And then,
like I do always in the past, I've made the
argument that you shouldn't get credit for I think in
the Durant case, for like for Brooklyn, probably like you
flew the plane into a hurricane and you've managed to
land it successfully against all odds. That's a little bit
like bringing like you traded stuff for James Harden and
oh my god, it went sideways. Who would have ever
imagined they kind of emerged from that unscathed somehow, So
maybe you went flat a man. The maxi thing is
really persuasive also in minus, just because you brought some
of the difficulty on yourself by adding Harden in the
first place. I know that's not a last offseason thing,
but I can't get to the flat a.
Speaker 1: But however, the alternative would have been what with Ben
Simmons as well?
Speaker 2: That's a yeah, I'm really trying not to give a
flat A, but you keep giving me reasons to do it.
Uh yeah, that's true. God, imagine how much worse off
they'd be. You're not getting. What do they get for Harden?
They got at least one real pick. I'll go in
a just do flat A.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they have that distant clipper. They got
two I think first round picks out of it, like
in net So and like they get that while he's disgruntled. Look,
we went from a TVD F to an A, which
is basically the aside from an F to an A plus.
Like that's the largest possible jump that you could make.
Speaker 2: But we it's a unique situation. We don't have. This
was really a two year plan that like started getting
executed last year. And it's like not a lot of
teams have the balls or the like you know, the
I don't know, planning acumen to and the the ability
to like coax pays out of players that just have
no reason to be patient with you. So yeah, we've
got to go all the way up to an A.
Speaker 1: I can tell you one team that's not going to
get a A is this next team, and that is the
Toronto Raptors. Is this my team? Or your team.
Speaker 2: I'll take them. So fired Nick Nurse Hark hired a
Darko Ryakovic Grady Dick at thirteen. We were both I
think pretty you more so than me. We're pretty high
on that pick. Still good pick. Gary trentp picked up
his player option.
Speaker 1: I think he thought it was going to pretend an
extension and apparently it could have. But he you wanted
to read his own market quite a bit.
Speaker 2: It seems like resigned Yaka Perl four years eighty million,
Dennis Shrewder two years, twenty five, Jalen McDaniels two years
nine point three. Let's see. Oh was so the was
Fred van Vliet?
Speaker 1: No, he was just I wanted that was a big
like most of these teams didn't shed that level of talents.
I wanted to know, like part of the grade was
Fred VanVleet left.
Speaker 2: And then at the time Scalciakam and og Anonoby we're
both still on the roster facing unrestricted free agency. On
Ananobe had the player option. Sam was headed straight for it.
So what did we give them? Yeah? We killed him?
You would, Oh, I love it you. This is the
only F minus on the board from Dan fa Valley congratulations.
I had an f uh. I mean, we're not moving
this up a ton, are we?
Speaker 1: What? What's the argument for moving it up? Because if
you want to push back, I should because I liked
it to pick. But I still gave him an F
minus the dark Arayakovic higher. I mean, if you want
proof of just like, look at what Scotty Barnes was
under him, look at what RJ. Barrett was able to
do under him after the trade. So I think that's
a good higher. Grady Dick doesn't start. That was looking
rough for a minute, but it turns out to be
I think you should probably be their fifth starter right now.
I don't know what to make in the garage Tren
Junior situation, like you can't. I think they were smart
not to offer him more than they did, but then
kind of losing him for nothing is not great. I
don't like Yaka Pero contract. Still. I recognize that he
does stuff for this team, but when they're still kind
of trying to determine their direction, I don't love it.
I think at best it's an average move, and I
would say it's probably closer to below average. Jae McDaniel's
disaster Dennis Schroeder, Okay, a fine placeholder. The big things
for me, you could have traded Fred van Fleet like
and this was a two or you could have paid
him because it was a two year max effectively. And
then the other thing is the decision, because it was
a decision to not trade Pascal Siakam and og Anobi
at the time, I don't know, like maybe in og
an Andobi you because of the injury history, you're fine
with what they ended up getting for him. Like again,
Arjie Barrett was great for them. I love the manuel
quickly you got based off how you paid him and
gave him a five year deal, you want to keep
him around. It does seem like they might have gotten
posed on the Pascal Siakam front, and I think at
least some of that was I know a lot of
people make concerns about, well, he's like kind of older
than you think, and how's his.
Speaker 2: Game gonna age.
Speaker 1: What happened by not moving him at the time is
you remember how he began the season is basically like
an accessory on the offensive end, and it looked disastrous.
And so you have a guy an expiring contract stock
kind of going through the like the floor you have
just rumors about like weirdness between him and the organization,
and then even have a Masaiyu Jerry kind of coming
out after the fact and saying he regretted how it
was handled. I just maybe i'll I'll bump it up
to an F because I like Darkoreyakovic now obviously more
than any at the time because we didn't have a
ton of background on it. But this was still a
pretty bad offseason because in a vacuum, even if waiting
for the Ognnobi trade was the smart decision, waiting on
the Pascal Siakam front, I do not think was. And
the most charitable interpretation of that is they were trying
to figure out if they could still be good, right.
Speaker 2: I think I think just at a base level, you
can't really make the argument that they would have gotten
less for Siakam or Ananobe had they traded them in
the offseason. You would have had more options, you could
have done better. And I think if you look at
the situation Toronto's in now, which isn't bad because quickly
Barnes bear it like there's.
Speaker 1: But those four guys Pearl Barrett Barnes, and quickly at
the time they played together, they obliterated. Like the numbers
on the data on that, like force them is really good.
Speaker 2: The problem is, I think there's a scenario where and
go all the way back to van Fleet if you
want to trying to move him sooner, although I don't
know if it's fair to call that an offseason thing
because you would have wanted to trade him at the
deadline in twenty twenty three. If you're looking at rebuilding
teams and you're like ranking them, like who's got the
brightest outlook? Just between who's got the cornerstone, who's got
the most draft equity, who's the most flexible, who has
the most upside? Like Toronto almost doesn't even profile as
a rebuilder just because Barnes is on the max. You
still have Pearl, who's a veteran center making twenty a
year quickly is like he's young, but he's not like, oh,
what's he going to be in five years? You know,
he's not nineteen. Barrett. I think is fairly well established.
They'll hit a new level. Like there's a scenario where
if Toronto plays this a little differently, they're loaded with
future firsts. They're super you know, Scottie Barnes and everybody
else is like under twenty or you know, there there's
a scenario where they really are rebuilding and weighed against
what they look like now, which is like probably not
a bottom four team, but also probably not more than
like a lucky playing entrant. They're like dangerously close. It's
like more promising than a Chicago Bulls or previous like
Washington Wizard's middle. But it's kind of a middle situation
right now, and I don't know if there's massive upside
to get you know, oh, it's gonna be a top
four team in the East in a couple of years,
and it's going to be really hard for them to
maximize their lottery equity. So I think, I mean, we
grated them about as harshly as possible.
Speaker 1: Well here, I'll people are pay.
Speaker 2: Now and that's almost a problem, if that makes sense, right.
Speaker 1: They're weirdly like they're being reactive rather than proactive. It's
just not hurting them. It's just like they were trying
to say, oh, are we better than expected, and no,
we're going to react to it. It seems like they're
kind of doing the same thing leading into this year.
But here's here's what they basically so they turned Fred
van fleet Ogian and Obi and Pascal Siakam into Emmanuel Quickly, RJ.
Barrett Ochak, Boji, Kelly Olinick, Jacoby Walter. They have that
other first round pick from Indiana in twenty twenty six.
Who am I forgetting there is like sort of the
meat and potatoes of that Bruce Brown and Bruce Brown.
So just like and could because I mentioned I have
Bojie and Olinic because they used one of those picks
that they got from Indy as part of that trade
to get them. That's objectively bad asset management.
Speaker 2: Yeah right, it looks and especially measured against had you
traded one or two or even all three of those
guys much closer to peak value, like you could be
sitting on six or eight future firsts, you know, a
couple of young guys that might have cornerstone potent. Like
you know, it's it's hard to be it's hard to
be totally fair when you're weighing against you're comparing, like,
well they hype ath could have had this, We don't
really know, but like I think we had a pretty
good idea of like what Ogn and Ob could have
gotten had they traded him at a certain point. Same
with Siakam. They just it maybe it's still an F.
I don't know, because I think that I talk about it,
the more concerned I am that they are like a
little stuck.
Speaker 1: It's still and I mean the dark Ariakovic higher might
be like the thing that's saving it from an F.
I'm gonna stick with an F. Where are the Raptors
fans at though that we're telling us Red van Vleet
was additioned by subtraction?
Speaker 2: Oh my god, the argument would be, was there in
the last five years, Fred van Vleet?
Speaker 1: How about that? The other thing too, is like I
guess you could make the case if they let fev walk,
did that unlock Scotty bars of some capacity? And I
just I'm not going to buy that. So and and
by the way, if you were making the argument that
he was additioned by subtraction, that was wrong. So that
we had a ton of Raptors fans that were just
making that argument, so not painting it with broad brush.
But that response was I couldn't believe it. I still
can't believe it, because hey, it was wrong. Our next
team up as we changed divisions here your Chicago Bulls.
I called them your Chicago Bulls when we were doing
the twenty twenty three offseason grades. I think it's only
right that they remained your Chicago Bulls. Oh, they resigned
Nikola Vucevic to a three year, sixty million dollar deal
that does not decline in salary. I highlighted not on
the screen because still couldn't just do anything right with that.
Traded twenty twenty six and twenty twenty seven seconds to
Washington for Julian Phillips, the number thirty five pick. Re
signed Kobe White for three years thirty six million, signed
Javon Carter three years nineteen point five million player option
on that final season, signed Tory Craig do a two year,
five point four million dollar deal, had a player option
for this coming season that he picked up. They resigned
Io de soon MoU for three years twenty one million dollars.
That was the meat and potatoes of their offseason. Grant.
We were I believe we were pretty not check. We
didn't hate it, but I gave them a C minus
and you might have hated it. You gave the Bulls
a D plus.
Speaker 2: Yeah, overall, direction not our favorite. The Vooch deal. I
just you know, you're probably just better with the cap
space as opposed to having him on the roster. Andre
Drummond was better than him for a good chunk of
last year and he's gone anyway now. Didn't move to
Rosen basically, you know, didn't get much of consequence for him.
I don't know if you want to start with, like
do we go down the La.
Speaker 1: Colvinion who was in the rumor mill at the time
in these grades, and then like that whole season, his
tost season was torpedoed and his trade value was right
along with it.
Speaker 2: Odds are you're getting You're probably not giving up a
first rounder to trade Zach Lavine last offseason, so that
looks worse.
Speaker 1: So ironically though, they did sign two of the best
deals in the NBA right now.
Speaker 2: I'm getting to like Kobe White and de soun MoU
are just those are phenomenal value signings. I mean, if
you really want to just shit on everything you say, well,
those are going to be way too low to extend
off of. So these guys are going to hit unrestricted
pree at some point anyway, So good job signing value guys.
You're gonna lose them. I'm not saying that I could.
Speaker 1: Just this is like that's the same level. Where so
like the Knicks with Isaiah Harts, I was like, well,
why wouldn't they just given him a three year deal
because they didn't know he was going to turn into
like like a borderline all defense got for them. It
is a.
Speaker 2: Weird I mean, it doesn't that seem like a problem
a little bit like in the way.
Speaker 1: This there's a problem with the way this league is.
Speaker 2: If you, I guess from the player's perspective, it's like,
you shouldn't signing a below market something that turns out
to be a blow market deal should not like hurt you.
I don't know, it seems to hurt the team if
you make one of these really good decisions. So those
two things, the discumer and the White deals are obvious,
like unabashed, like unquestioned positives. It's just it's still the
overall direction sucks and like it just it doesn't make
sense and I don't like it. So I'm gonna just
stay at a D plus because I don't feel any
better about the Bulls today than I did a year ago.
Speaker 1: Do you feel I'm gonna stick with a SE minus
because I don't feel any worse, and I still think
even though Javon Carter in play, well, I don't have
a problem with that decision. It's the Bulls's view of
themselves is so bad that it then taints everything else
that they're doing. Because all of this, with the exception
of White and too Soon move like it's wrong because
it shouldn't vibe with the direction the I mean, I
might bump them down to a D just because I
still don't understand, like the Julian Phillips move. I'm not
gonna lie, but I just it's in. What it comes
down to is because none of these moves are actively damaging,
even the ones that you don't like. It's just even
the foods Steele, It's all right, it's already there's only
two years left, like I'll be an expiring contract a
year from now. But they just continue to be so
disconnected from reality. And like I don't feel worse about
their direction, I guess you might feel a little bit
better because it seems like with the Rosen Gone with Cruso, God,
they're prioritizing the long term, but they also did that
you ended up by not moving either of those guys
last summer. You how many first round picks they got
for them?
Speaker 2: Grant let me count, let me oh right, yeah, none.
Speaker 1: They got Josh Giddy who Let's say he ends up
working out, congratulations, and we're gonna give him max money,
like if the thing imagine like giving up Alex Caruso
for the right to give Josh getting nine figures or
let him ride it out to restricted free He hasn't
played a minute for you yet, and that's what you
acquired at this moment. Is you either to let it
leak out in a restricted free agency or to just
give him a nine figure extension right now? Just this
organization is awful. They f for like just existentially, I
feel like they need to get an F. But I
think a C minus is just like or just because
the contracts in the Vacuum were all fine except to
vouch one, like the moves are all fine. I would
argue that dissum Wu and I now wonder if I'm
being too hard because like White and Dissumu in fury,
if you're willing to pay them beyond this contract, like
those are two that can fit a rebuilding iteration and
beyond of the Bulls. I'm still just gonna stick with
a C minus because there's at We've we saw the
Chicago Bulls, same movie over and over again enough to
know that like this was gonna end in disaster. They
continuously have the opportunity to get out in front of it,
and they didn't.
Speaker 2: I just think like the ripple effects are still so profound,
because I mean, just resigning Vucavis is crazy. But but
like they do seem to have like they were trying
to trade Zach Levine right by all accounts, and it's
just they so like somewhere in there are the right
instincts I guess, of like, Okay, we clearly just can't
have this player at this contract on the roster anymore.
And then they go in so it's like okay, good, oh, progress,
We're ready now, and but then they wait too long.
Under Rosen, they trade Caruso without getting picks back, and
it's just like, are you guys ever gonna just just
really just go for it? And I yeah, so okay,
let's let's move on. I'm like just getting frustrated.
Speaker 1: I don't think this team is gonna make you as
upset the Cleveland Cavaliers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, let's see is this me I'll I'll
take it?
Speaker 1: Uh So?
Speaker 2: Signed George Niang three years, twenty five point five. The
big move was getting Max Druce on the sign and
trade from the Heat four years for sixty four. Drafted
him Ony Baits, signed Isa Mobley, Craig Porter Junior, Carsel
vert Back two years, thirty two million, Ty Jerome two
for five. That's pretty much it. We were high on this,
but I think maybe you listened back. It had to
have been a lot about didn't have a ton of
options and really made the most of them and got
a guy and Struce who theoretically was going to fill
that you know, that three spot. Not ideal, but the
best they sort of could have done based on what
was out there. Right, That's it. That seems like what
we would have said.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is what we said. We liked the we
We were torn on the George and Yang deal, which
I would argue looks worse now, especially because now that
you've kind of found out different things about your front court.
But both the Mobiley and Craig Porter Junior deals, like
Craig Porter Junior specifically was mission critical, might be a
little bit strong, like during some of their more injury
probe periods that dude was getting minutes, and he was
steering the offense, and he was making shots, he was
playing ferocious defense. I gave him a B plus at
the time. I think I'm inclined to stay the same
just because I feel worse about the Nyang deal net
New still on the Charrislavert stuff. But I like the
shrew Steel still and like I said, the like even
the baits Pick I think is still a good flyer.
And then the specifically to get Craig Porter Junior like
and what he ended up meaning for you, even for
that brief stretch is kind of a home run. I'm
gonna stick with a B plus. And also if you
wanted to, I think you could go higher just because
of what you said before, where it's they didn't have
a ton of options at their disposal.
Speaker 2: I think like just as a general rule, anytime someone
you sign on a two way contract is in the
news cycle for a decent period of time for the
right reasons, that's a home run. Just like if the
fact that they got anything and like they really didn't
need him for a I mean a decent stretch.
Speaker 1: Oh, I'm sorry, but I'm wondering if I'm being too
I'm interjecting because like this is how my mind works.
I just just not destroyed. I gotta stop speaking in
hyperbole about myself. I just criticized the Heat because they
don't have enough of these like middle sub middle salaries
to move and like George Niang, is that where the
teams WHOA that deal is awful. We won't take that on.
So maybe I'll bump them to an A minus just
because again the lack of resources to end up really
just reorienting your rotation this much and having some looking
at character burd and then looking at George Niggs salary
filler if you want to make a mid season move.
So I'll go a minus, which is weird because they
did not have a good season relative to expectations. But
I think that was more about Honestly, I just think
it was more about injuries Darius Garland getting hit in
the face than right.
Speaker 2: That's the thing I'm struggling with a couple issues. I
started a little higher with an A minus. I don't
think I'm going I can't get to a flat A
but one. Just all the injuries up and down the
roster make it really hard, Like maybe this team would
have won like fifty eight games or something if the
whole gang had been healthy for the whole year and
had time to gel and Darius Garland was himself. I guess,
like with Struce, I do, I still think that's just
the best you were gonna do with the with the
flexibility you had. I still am left feeling like they
need somebody at that position that's just better, maybe bigger,
maybe a better defender, rangier.
Speaker 1: Like so you're criticizing them for not figuring out how
to trade for og Ananobi.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, Can we criticize all twenty nineteens for that? Yeah? No,
I I I think I think I'll just stay at
an A minus because I do think like if the
Cavs underwhelmed last year, which by the way, they won
a playoff series, which they didn't the year before, I think,
if I'm remembering that right, yeah.
Speaker 1: They lost to your New York Knicks, I'm just assigning
every team. You know, that's a lot of teams, I think.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I I can't really get away from the logic
defending the Strue signing. And he was fine, Like he
wasn't it wasn't like, oh my god, what are we
going to do with this guy? He was the dead
wrong pick. It's not it's not that.
Speaker 1: So yeah, maybe I'll stick with the learning a lot. Yeah,
I think B plus relative B plus A minus area
relative to the resources that were I now I'm gonna
stick with the go up to an A minus. So
a minus is across the board for both of us.
We will not be giving out an A minus this
time around. We get to the Detroit Pistons, Buddy, is
this my team or you're.
Speaker 2: A team yours? Take them? I don't want them, Well.
Speaker 1: I have I can't take them because I let the
thing go too long. But here we go. They drafted
A sar Thompson at number five. They were part of
the James Naji Trickle Effect brands, where they traded number
thirty one and seconds in twenty twenty five and twenty
twenty six. For number twenty seven Marcus Sasser. They took
on Joe Harris plus the MAVs twenty twenty seven second
and the Bucks twenty twenty nine second, So that was
to eat the Joe Harris money. They traded a most
favorable twenty twenty seven second to the Wizards for Monte Morris.
They signed Isaiah Stewart as the other bag into a
four year, sixty million dollar extension. It's a flat rate
and then the final year is a team option, so
only three guaranteed seasons. On that. They also hired Monty
Williams and they gave him the bag six years a
trillion dollars. He did not want to take the job,
but Tom Gores basically, I guess begged him but threw
someone had him.
Speaker 2: Yes you do.
Speaker 1: He had to take him, and I grant. Do you
know what we said about that at the time. Would
you like to know what we said?
Speaker 2: I bet We were like, hey, wait to go get
the guy right, do what it takes.
Speaker 1: We were basically like we were so high on them
to be like, wow, this is like a commitment to
like getting and they knew that this doesn't affect the
Caps and just go out there, identify your guy and
get him. Uh we man, I don't even want to
say these grades out loud. We both gave a's and
you know what happened after we gave them. Lazarus Jackson,
a Detroit bad Boys had messaged me saying I was
shocked that you and Grant were high on the Pistons
offseason as you were a year later. So am I why.
Speaker 2: Did we do this? Like I can't believe I was.
I can't believe there's two flat.
Speaker 1: Oh, so we imagine if I just I'm trying to
test how well you remember, and we really gave him
an afrom just but so we loved we loved the RSR.
Thompson pick they still do right, and we loved what
they did with Monty Williams, but like that's the c
and we were just like, oh, they didn't do anything
to short circuit their position, and so we were giving
them credit for that. And we thought Monte Morris was
gonna come in kind of open up the floor and
make things easier on everybody else. But we could not
have predicted that Jay Knivey was gonna get buried behind
Killian Hayes under Monty Williams. We could not predict that.
Just like I don't know how to phrase this delicately,
but they would just have very little control over what
Jalen Duran wanted to do on the offensive end last
year at some point, like he you look at some
of the possessions that he had. I understand it was
a function of the personnel or lack there of around him,
but my god, it really seems like the Monty Williams
higher and then letting Troy Weaver be the one to Like,
I don't know how much of that was just Gores
versus Gore's end Weaver, and so it's like if Weaver
didn't really factor into that then, but to not get
rid of Weaver sooner when you were gonna end up
doing it anyway and be in a position where you
had to not just turn over the front office but
get you know, allow them to get rid of a
coach that you gave just a billion dollars. I don't
think you know, Marcus Sasser, if you were hoping for
kind of a back up point guard type, that's not
what he is. But he was I was. I said
this to Las recently. I think I just became to
a namor that he was someone who was hitting threes
off the catch on a team that just didn't have
anyone like that. I'm gonna go out on a limb
and say, this is not an a off season for them.
I just don't know what to go down to because
I still like the SR Like if you were in
the same spot again, knowing what you know, like there's
no one even within that range that you reason like
profiles is a reasonable alternative. You could say, Okay, Pods
or Jaime Hawkes might have been better off Rip, but like,
long term, I'm still taking ro but you might take
Pods over them for sure. But like Asar, Thompson is
still has the it's not just having the top five mestique,
Like we could look back and say, yeah, this is
one of the five best players of the draft class
for sure.
Speaker 2: No, he's why this can't be an f even though
everything attached to the Monty Williams just what felt like
sabotage at certain points with all the killing and Hayes stuff,
like that's all F level for sure, But Tom but
Thompson I still, I mean we're talking like I get
I get it. There's arguments for other guys in the draft.
You you cannot convince me that there's anybody that went after
him that definitely has more upside, like just and which
in the Piston's position that still is kind of what
you should be after is just how good could this
guy be if he hits like his hundredth percentile outcome.
I don't care about the floor even Joe Harris like,
I'm sure, well maybe you remember, I assume we liked
that and just like Able Reoch a couple seconds he
comes off anyway, that just was a miss. But I
don't feel like that's hugely consequential. It's but man, you
just know's got to wear it. Like the Manti Williams thing.
The only thing keeping this from an FS Thompson and
everything else, the Monti Williams thing in particular, like this is.
Speaker 1: Just a d off season to me, right, and it's
probably like closer to a like to misread the situation
that much is just it's bad. And the other thing
we did not listening back criticize them enough for was
just kind of like perpetual perpetuating this. Why is there
nine trillion bigs on the roster And it's okay they
didn't get as married to the dual big setup, I
think as we were kind of worried about you had,
But it was also just like using Stuart too much
at Power Forward at the end of the day, and
as soon as you got Simony von Takio around the
trade deadline, like he comes in and it's, oh my god, like,
look at what this can do for us? And then
also we probably should have been more critical of like
why it was boy On mcdonovich on the team for
as long as he was, like not making those moves sooner.
So I'm gonna go down to a this is all
based on money, willingerspace. I'm gonna go down to a
D D minus area. I just don't not a banner
off season for them. This next team had a much
better off.
Speaker 2: Season than the Pistons indeed did any better. So traded
number eight blaw clubally to Washington for number nine. Jeris
Walker got a twenty thirty second via Sacramento out of that.
Ben Sheppard at twenty six traded Strawther, Pickett and Mohave
King and cash and a twenty four first least favorable
from like fifteen different teams. Yeah, I don't know, I
don't know why I even read that one. Let's see
any anything other got off of Chris Duarte to the
Kings for a twenty twenty What I.
Speaker 1: Okay, I just what were they like? Like I thought
the Kings like, oh, look at what Duarte did with
sa bonus at one point, let's kind of recapture that,
and I just know that's not and then we're going
to have to He became filler in the Derosan trade,
but they give up what you did for him with
that ended up.
Speaker 2: This is not not the worst, not the worst logic really,
but it just totally did not work out. So this
is laid down the list. But signed Bruce Brown two
years forty five, much to the Nuggets chagrin, although they
probably knew that there was just no way to retain
him a team option on twenty four to twenty five.
He is a Toronto Raptor now via the Siakam trade,
got to Obi toppin trading the least favorable of a
couple of seconds in twenty eight and twenty nine. I
like your note linked to Pascal Siakam. That link connected eventually,
but not an offseason move. So, Dan, we very much
enjoyed the Indiana Pacers offseason work. Uh and they made
the Eastern Conference Finals. Injuries factored into that, but they
had their own injury issues. I mean, so you had
an A minus, I had an A. We're just in
love with the Central Division and it's you.
Speaker 1: Know why my existed why, as I said, they should
have just kept pull out cool of BALI I'm not
taking Javis Walker. You know how I feel a year
later the exact same way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say, so, okay, so we're up really high.
That means we've got to look if we're doing anything,
we're we're reducing this grade. I'm not seeing other than
the Kolabali move. I'm not seeing a ton of reasons
here to be critical.
Speaker 1: There's actually more of a case to move it up
because you end up using look at what you do
so number twenty nine, you turn that into a first
and you also sign Bruce Brown two components that you
used in the Pascal Siakham trade, which looks like a
home run for you. And while we don't love the
OPI topping contract to get him for the value that
you did, you probably even feel better about that. I'm
sticking with an A minus specifically because I think Jarvis
Walker is still very much TBD. But like, if I'm
this team and I think it was clear or at
least semi clear in the moment, blab Coolabali would have
maybe made more sense, or if you were really like
trying to groom like kind of a combo. Like a
combo Big is more of a perimeter defender. Taylor Hendrix
would have made more sense there. I guess you could
use not that this is a cop out. We're not
gonna say, oh Likejimy Hawkins wasn't on the radar here,
but you could say, those are really the two players
that I just named before, those are the only two
like real alternatives. And it's okay, well one of those
alternatives you actively traded, so I'll stick with an A minus.
I think it was mostly a brilliant off season from them.
And look, that's not to say like I still believe
I think if Pacers fans are at the point where
they kind of believe in Jarvis Walker's offense more than
his defense, which based off what we've seen, is probably fair.
I'm still a big believer in his defense. I just
don't understand the theory of him on this team anymore.
And I will say we both mentioned this at the
time liking Ben Sheppard. I like him better now some
of the things that we saw him do defensively than
we did at the time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll just I guess I'll just stay well, you
know what slight demerit because I do like Coolabali better
than Jaris Walker at this point, so I'll go to
an A minus, which is still a fantastic great.
Speaker 1: Yeah, great offseason by them, but we read great, great
analysis by us to recognize it in real time though,
because that didn't happen with some of these teams. Our
final team, yeah, the Milwaukee Bucks. They fired Mike Budenholzer
and hired Adrian Griffin. That was apparently Giannis Attenthakupo's preferred choice.
They drafted Chris Livingston at number fifty eight and signed
him to four years and seven point six million dollars.
The first two seasons are guaranteed. Traded in twenty twenty
thirty second and cash to Orlando for number thirty six
Andre Jackson Junior. They get a plus plus from that
for Grant. Re signed Chris Middleton to a three year,
ninety three million dollar deal it escalates and has a
player option on the final season and nine point three
million in likely incentives. They resigned Brook Lopez after adalliance
with Houston, on a two year, forty five million dollar
deal that declines in year two, which he's entering now.
Sign a Malik Beasley one year minimum, resigned Jay Crowder
on a one year minimum, resigned to NASA Sutent Tokupo
because how could you not? Resigned aj Green to a
three year, six pointy three million dollar deal with non
guarantees in the final two seasons this though Grant was
not a part of our grade. They traded Drew Holliday,
a twenty twenty eight and twenty thirty first round swaps
and a twenty twenty nine first round pick for one
Damian Lillard, and they were not considered like they had
been mentioned tangentially, but they were not considered a primary
destination at the time. You gave him a B plus
I gave them an A for their offseason. There's a
lot of things to reconsider here.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, the first is what do you do with
the Dame trade? Because I mean, you were really high
on what they did, and I think that's by the way,
just you know again minimum signing caveat. Malik Beasley really
mattered for them on a minimum like he started.
Speaker 1: He defended why didn't they put a team option on
the back end of that though that they could have
kept him for ANST year. Should we demerit them?
Speaker 2: For that, I'm gonna just go if that's positive. I mean,
the Middleton and Lopez deals, those guys are both you know,
looking a little worse for wear, But that was just
what she had to pay, right to keep those guys around.
And there really wasn't a scenario where you're gonna quibble
or you're gonna like go test the mark and see
what happens. Lopez kind of did that and ended up
coming back. So I mean, I can't I can't move
down for that. The question is do you move them
down for the Dame trade that? That's what I'm wrestling with.
Speaker 1: So so quickly. On the Brook Lopez runt, he was
actually offered more money by Houston, and so maybe we
should view that more favorably. I have a I have
a question for you. It's basically same question you asking me.
But to day right now, would you still have made
the Damian Lillard trade if you're the.
Speaker 2: Bucks, I kind of think I would rather have Drew
Holliday than Damian Lillard, like full stop. Maybe maybe That's
where I'm at.
Speaker 1: I I would still make it. If the trade happens today.
I think they probably couldn't have anticipated maybe they could
have because of how late in the off season had happened.
But like Dame struggled off the court, we know this,
you wouldn't have looked like when you look at where
he struggled on the court, it's like, oh, he wasn't
hitting catch and shoot threes. Grant, that's not gonna happen forever.
I still think the peak of this team is going
to be higher with Damian Lillard than it could have
been with Drew Holliday, and so I still would have
made it. It's not as I don't know if it
was even a no brainer at the time. It's certainly
not a no brainer now. But at the very least,
I won't knock their grade for making that trade. If anything,
I'll applaud it because what happens after you acquired Damian Lillard.
Johannis recommits to you.
Speaker 2: That's true.
Speaker 1: That's so I think that's a big like plus for them. Again,
that wasn't part of the offseason, or it wasn't part
of our grades when we did it. Excuse me. So
I think the real thing to focus on here is
how badly they missed on the head coaching higher because
I want to know, like did Adrian Griffin come in
and say that he was gonna change all of their
defensive tenants to start the season in the Bucks, You're like,
you know what, this sounds like a really good idea.
No morez at the basket, Hell yeah, let's go for it.
Speaker 2: Isn't this just a good example of a franchise being
beholden to a superstar because you said it right? Griffin
was Gianni's pick, and Jannis re upping after Dame shows
up suggests that, like, maybe he said that's something we
ought to look into as well, and like the coaching
thing was a full on mistake. I do think there's
a discussion to be had about whether the Dame trade
was the right move and if you just didn't have
to think about what does Yiannis want? The problem is
like you are gonna do what Yannis wants no matter what,
and like every franchise in this position would would operate similarly.
It just seems like the results weren't great. I'm you
started higher than me, right, so I'm gonna go Okay,
I'm moving down from a B plus to a B
because my concerns with the Dame trade were that you
wouldn't necessarily get enough of an offensive and late game
boost to offset all of the holiday bonuses that come
with him that aren't quantifiable, along with his production. And
then the coaching thing was just like like, wouldn't if
you could just snap your fingers, you know, first round
embarrassments and all, wouldn't you just rather have Mike Budenholzer
than either Griffin or Doc Rivers at this point if
that were like a tenable situation.
Speaker 1: Like you would, right, Yeah, that's I don't even think
that's a question, to be honest with you.
Speaker 2: So it's for me, it's got to move down. I
just I think there's still a world where Dame is
back to himself this year, and and this looks like
a bad regrade. Maybe we should regrade our regrade at
some point.
Speaker 1: But to be fair, is like the problem with the
Dame trade is, at least right now in the moment,
it doesn't why I would still do it. It's a
c move like this is not like, well, they stole
Damian Lillard, no Portland.
Speaker 2: But the other thing is maybe by the way this
puts them in the position they're in, which is stuck
right second Apron no assets to try, how do we
get better, Like you're in a better position if you
have those picks and swaps and like Holiday's lower salary
right like that that's something to consider too. The overall
position the Bucks are in is just like thank god
Gary Trent, like blew it with Toronto or Toronto Blue
with him, and you get him on the minimum because otherwise,
like you can't make this team better or it's really
really hard. I think you're more flexible if you don't
do the Dame trade.
Speaker 1: By the way, the other thing too is not because
you wanted to keep it clandestine that he was involved
in trade talks, you couldn't control where Drew Holliday ended up,
which was on the Celtics, and while the Bucks weren't
healthy enough to really ever challenge them. I mean, how
like to get rid of Drew Hollie for Damian Lillverer,
but to have Holiday end up on what's just your
biggest rival in the conference by virtue of them being
the standard bearer for the East. I think I'm going
down to like a see a seat like the coach.
That's a huge miss on the coaching higher and when
you look at the other moves, it's Chris like Chris
Middleton now with the health stuff, just had surgery on
both ankles. Again, I think the deal is fine. Did
you win that Negotia as the team? No, brook Lopez did,
like you paid him less than Houston was willing to.
So it's like you look at okay, Jake Crowder does
nothing for you. Uh, I think the hits, like if
you go back and look at this, the one thing
that we can say, even though I would make the
Damian Lillard trade again, the only hit was Malik Beasley.
Was it not that you could just say that brook
Lopez and Chris Middleton were net neutral. So I'm gonna
go like, you fucked up the coaching higher pretty bad.
I just I'm gonna go. But you they honest aspect
of it too.
Speaker 2: So this is where I'm stuck because I want to go.
I'm with you in that like this feels like it
needs to drop a lot. But I'm really viewing the
the angle of Yannis said to do some stuff, and
you risk losing him if you don't do the stuff.
And I don't know if there's a front office that's
gonna say, like, let's play chicken and see how this goes, right, like,
I don't. I think they were kind of in a
lot of respects, like the bad decisions or the questionable ones,
or even like the dame one. That's like I don't know,
maybe maybe not. They didn't really have alternatives because I
just feel it feels like with a year behind us,
Jannis just kind of said, like, here's what's got to
happen if you want me to re sign, like or
if you want me to extend, and they just did
that those things. So it's like I give them a
little bit of grace for that because they were just
over a barrel to some extent.
Speaker 1: And I guess the other thing too, is what opportunity
the coaching thing is the one that's the anchor that
is just dragging them down, Like what other opportunities did
they Like, how did you want them to do better?
And if we're saying do better was not making the
Damian Lillard trade. That gets an iffy territory. I'm gonna
go to a state like that head coaching heart, that's
a that's a huge miss. They might deserve credit for
moving on as soon as they did, but they still
made the decision in the first place to do that.
Speaker 2: I'm I'm only gonna go down to I'll go down
to a B minus just because of the honest thing,
I just think they didn't really have a lot of
say in some of this stuff.
Speaker 1: Uh, I we did it, Brandon. How are you feeling
after going through that that regrace process?
Speaker 2: You know, the East was a little more booboo laden
on our part than the West. But I do think
we have everything back in order now. We don't we really,
it really would be like a scary, sicko thing to do.
But what if I really I jokingly said it, but like,
what if we regraded regrades next year?
Speaker 1: So I'll keep this. I will keep the doc that
if we want to regrade the twenty twenty three offseason
and start that as a bit like regrading the regrades
that might be if we end up having time on
our hands, I'll save it for it. But that I mean,
but it's fair to look at like some of these
moves are just like, well, this needs to play out
over the long Like a year isn't enough for most
of these moves for us to just have these definitive conclusions, especially.
Speaker 2: With draft picks involved, like we you know, but he's
gonna know anything about these guys with few exceptions until
they're like signing their extensions or whatever. It's just, it's
it's such a it's still just a guessing game for
a lot of it.
Speaker 1: The East took us longer than the West, which I'm
surprised about, but we had to We had to edit
some of our thoughts. Like there's a lot of walking
back in this podcast.
Speaker 2: That's all right when you're wrong. Are we good? Shall
I take us out?
Speaker 1: Yes? Please take us out.
Speaker 2: Thanks everybody for being with us on this journey towards accountability.
Check back in next year when we re regrade the
twenty twenty three off season and then regrade our twenty
four regrades. It'll be a lot of fun and not
at all confusing. If you haven't already rate, review, subscribe,
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Frank Miila Keina. Apologies, Jared Allen. This s