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Speaker 1: Welcome to the God's I View Podcast. I am your host, Trevor.

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Morale is low. The vibes have never been worse. Outlook

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is bleak. Forecasts are abysmal. Guys, I received my first

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ever piece of hate mail. I've had vaguely critical emails

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in the past, but I had my first ever experience

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with just raw, unbridled rage and derision and criticism. But

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it actually ended in a kind of a good place.

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I'm going to share that story with you. I also

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have two incredible clips to incredible clips now hold on.

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They are of Alex O'Connor. I know how you guys feel.

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I have also gotten feedback that maybe we could lay

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off the Alex O'Connor, but it's just so, it's just

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so unbelievably relevant. I have to. I have to, And

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then we'll take a break no Alex O'Connor. For we'll

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do a one week ban an embargo on Alex O'Connor.

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But anyway, yeah, let's get to the hate mail. Oh,

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I should probably mention why I'm recording again since I

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already recorded this morning. I had a great conversation with

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doctor Campbell, paleontologist, but I realized the reason I do

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this show, well, it's multifaceted. I think it would be

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very cool for my kids someday to listen to this,

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you know, their kids, their kids kids. You know, wouldn't

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be cool if you could go back and listen to

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your great grandfather fathers like three hundred hours of his

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thoughts on life. And we don't really get into a

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lot of stuff that maybe we should, like just how

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to live your life and how to conduct yourself.

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Speaker 2: And.

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Speaker 1: What it's like to be a man, what it's like

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to be at this incredible intersection of scientific revolution and

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technological advancement in a dying culture. You know, we don't

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really get into that. We just talk about the nature

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of reality. But what don't you want to know what

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your grandfather thought about that? You know, So that's kind

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of that's a major part of it. The other part

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of it is, frankly, if in the interest of transparency,

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I think I've just like the sound of my own voice.

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Apparently now it's funny because I don't actually like the

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sound of my own voice. But I've found that the

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more I talk to you all, the easier it is

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for me to not dominate conversations in real life. You

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know this, like I get it out of my system.

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I get the stream of consciousness out of my system.

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And so in zoom meetings, at work and at coffee

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shop interactions, I don't you know, say well, let me

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tell you about the real nature of reality, sir. So

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it's I think it's healthy for me because I kind

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of have found an inverse correlation between the more you know,

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the more I share my opinions, and the more trouble

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I'm in. So this is a safe, safe place for that.

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And so I did an interview this morning and I

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realized that I don't I'm I think what this is

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for me, this is dock therapy, and so doc therapy

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is best when you're the one talking the whole time.

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It's so it's this is such an admission for me

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about what a uh what just deep deep psychological problems

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that I have apparently, but you know what, I'm trying

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to be as honest as possible, and so a handful

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of you seem to enjoy it. So we're all getting

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what we want out of this relationship anyway. So here

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I am to play a couple of really cool clips.

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I think, I actually think very insightful clips. And I

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only have thirty minutes because I have a meeting, so

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we'll move quickly. So let's get to the hate mail. Now, imagine,

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imagine you're just sitting minding your own business. You're recording

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this show. You record an episode almost every day, but

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no one's really listening. I mean there's maybe fifty, maybe

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one hundred. A few episodes maybe have two hundred. A

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couple episodes even have three hundred downloads. But in reality,

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I mean, this is nobody's listening, right, And so you

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develop a sort of ease, you know, I kind of

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maybe maybe I've I'm not necessarily presenting my opinions like

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with a bibliography, and I'm constantly getting quotes wrong, you know,

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so there is sort of a casual, a casualness with

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which I, you know, we do this. So imagine that

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and you get this email and you have no idea

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what's what it's in reference to. Here's the email, dear sir.

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Now I'm definitely not mocking the writer, you know, but

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I'm just laughing because this is how you start a

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This is how you start a sternly written letter, you know,

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to to the manager. And so right away I was like, oh,

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dear sir, unless this is like an English gentleman, this

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is I'm nervous. I have seldom heard a more dishonest

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assessment instead of claims and misquotes, And to use Graham

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Hancock as an expert in support of your argument is

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beyond risible. All right, so this is sentence one already

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my blood pressure is elevated. I don't like criticism. I

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don't like confrontation.

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Speaker 2: Who does.

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Speaker 1: Who wants? Who wants to be told you're a dummy?

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But I something This didn't feel right because I don't

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really agree with Graham Hancock on anything. I do like

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to find overlap between people who you would think would

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disagree strongly on a topic, but then will agree or

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vice versa. You know, so, so I may it may

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have been something like that. The subject line didn't even register.

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The subject line was directed to pan Spermia. It didn't

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even dawn on me that that was an episode title

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i'd done. So I was really confused. Okay, next sentence.

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This one hurt me a little bit. You add to

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dishonesty by couching your discussion is mere speculation, thus seemingly

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disarming any critic well, that is probably true. I mean

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I think that I think it's safe to say we're

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doing a bit of speculation here. Next line, I think

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I read you are a biologist. First of all, who's

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writing about me? That's what I want to know. Have

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people written about me? So I said, I think I

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read you are a biologist. You know better, And on

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that basis, I can't be bothered engaging with more of

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your content. And of course I'm thinking like, well, that's

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the beauty. That's the beauty of voluntary podcasts listening. I

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think there is this feeling like when you're a listener,

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it's almost like you're patronizing someone, like like if you go,

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like if you go to your local grocery store and

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they treat you badly, you can say like, hey, I

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do business here, and now I'm not going to anymore

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because you've treated me unfairly or whatever. So I think

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people kind of have that energy. But it is sort

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of important to remind everyone that I don't make any

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money from this, and whether or not you're listened is

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really it has no baried on the show. So although

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that's not totally true, because I do I would love

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for people to listen and like share their thoughts. You

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know which people do. People send me emails. It's great,

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I read them, it really is. I love it. It's the

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best part of it really so so in a sense,

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he's right. But the point is, like, there's sometimes I'll

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leave ads in on accident, but generally I remove them

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all except for the ones at the end. And I

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think I make about forty five cents a month, so

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you know anyway, But so yes, yes, I invite you

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to either listen or not listen. If you want to

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play around with the hypothesis that might have legs, try

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experience being fundamental, not consciousness, which could easily be explained

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as an emergent property, but the most basic concept of

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experience in a non Marcovian sense regards I'm reading this

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to sort of be petty, but also just because like

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I experienced something with this, I felt like I had

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a breakthrough in the way like I interact with my

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fellow man, you know, because I've been really angry before

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and this kind of made me angry. But then I'm like,

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wait a second, why am I angry? That's ridiculous that

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I would be angry. So I think I kind of

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started writing an email, and I'm like, I'm not even

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sure what I'm responding to. I don't even know what

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this is in reference to. So I dialed it back

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and I said, hello, I'm not sure I know what

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this email is in regards to. In regards to question,

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it's the there is sort of like an absurdity element

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to it, like getting a letter in your mailbox. It

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just says I hate you. Period. It's like, okay, what

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is this in regards to? You know, I said, I

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don't think I've used Graham Hancock in support of my beliefs,

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but you know, I've recorded a lot of episodes, so

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it could be that I've just forgotten. And I said,

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I think experience being fundamental is a fantastic hypothesis worthy

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of further exploration. And I really meant this next line

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at the time, and then I realized, no, of course

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this is wrong. But I said, maybe you have me

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confused with someone else, you know, like it seems unlikely,

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but maybe, I said, I look forward to hear, you know,

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learning more about this, and you know what happened, and

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it's just a beautiful thing. Human connection is so important

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and so much of our human connection is online now

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for me, particularly that I think just like, even if

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you fundamentally disagree with someone, once you realize that they

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are actually a human being, you know, I think some

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of the anger just kind of melts away. And so

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the message writer said, you know, I'm sorry at my apologies.

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Here's the episode I'm referencing, and his tone was a

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bit different, and he kind of explained, and he taught

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me that he does a lot of AI exploration, like

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he has conversations with AI about new physics and stuff.

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And I was like, oh boy, I hope he doesn't

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listen to my other episodes. I may have mentioned a

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rocket ship that should be sent to Jupiter, but I

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hope he if he does hear that episode, I hope

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he knows. You know, I'm just I'm just messing around,

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you know, just talking anyway, So he said my apologize apologies,

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and he's sort of elaborate. I'm still not exactly sure

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what I said that was so offensive, but I think

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I may have misquoted somebody crick. It sounds like, so

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that's possible, and it seems like I probably would have

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said I don't know the quote, but but maybe maybe

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I did I didn't listen. I didn't listen to the

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episode anyway, So we went back and forth a little

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bit more than it all worked out. But it just

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got me thinking anger. Now, listen, this is a written

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method of communication, so it could be that there wasn't

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a lot of anger. But I mean, you can generally tell,

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even in text if somebody's upset. And it was cool.

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I found out that he was in an airplane over

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the Black Sea when he was writing me this. See.

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I was like, wow, that's incredible, you know. And so

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this is just one of those things we disagree on.

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I guess I don't even know what I said, but

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I assume I said something like directed Panspermia, which was

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the subject line, is kind of a crazy and fantastical idea,

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you know, something like that. But you know, that is

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just my opinion. That's not even speculation. That's just like

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raw opinion, you know. Anyway, So it just get it

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got me thinking, though, I wonder how many people have

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a similar reaction to something I've said and they never

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send the email. So I would encourage you to send

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the email maybe, you know, in the spirit of discussion,

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you know, in the spirit of discussion. If I see

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the you know, if I see the word risible or

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dear sir, I'll do my best not to get a

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blood pressure rise. That would be our agreement. Anyway, I

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thought that was kind of fun. It was one of

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those things that started out really upsetting and ended up

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being like kind of cool, you know, so hopefully it's

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all good. Yeah, And you know, it's funny the people

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who disagree with me the most, they always end up

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being like AI conversationalists. What is it? What is it

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about that? There's something to that? You know, there's something too,

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there's a difference in personality. And I'm not saying I'm right.

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I'm not saying he's wrong, but you know, or vice versa.

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It's just there's kind of something fundamental if you're having

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like extended conversations with an AI chatbot about new physics.

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I'm not saying it's good. I'm not saying it's bad.

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Maybe I'm a luddite, you know, and a fool, but

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there is I think we have to say there's something

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kind of fundamentally different about those two personality types. And

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so I've always said the people who get the maddest

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at me are the AI people, and this topic wasn't

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even about AI yet it kind of was in a

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strange way. So we're gonna continue that. Actually, we have

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a clip, a beautiful, beautiful fumble by Richard Dawkins that

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just gave so much insight into the way he thinks.

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And so I was gonna play a setup clip, but

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I think I'm actually gonna just skip the setup clip

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because I don't have a lot of time. It's one

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forty five fifteen minutes.

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Speaker 3: So here we go, and I think that's fair enough.

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You know, Annil Seth recently wrote a wonderful essay.

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Speaker 1: By the way, and I thought it was a Neil,

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but a now Seth brilliant guy, brilliant neuroscientist, very much

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like a you know, mainstream reductionist kind of an idea

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but just very just ruthlessly empirical. So I like him.

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But he I did mention he's the one. When I

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listened to him a lot, I kind of get depressed,

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you know, So just for context.

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Speaker 3: The mythology of conscious AI, where he's talking about it

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in the context of AI, and he essentially says, look,

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you know, if you want to actually simulate a.

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Speaker 1: Brain, okay, I want to make it really clear, I'm

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no longer this is no longer has anything to do

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with that message I got. I'm not implying that this

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individual believes AI is conscious or that's done. Okay, So

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I don't want to get and not like any any

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more accusations. Okay, We're just moving on to a new topic,

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a topic that's going to be really relevant for an

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interview next week about new theories of consciousness. And so

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I want to plant this seed in your minds now

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because I'm going to bring it back up later with guests.

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Speaker 3: In a computer, it's not as simple as just creating

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the same connections between nodes. You got to talk about

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what the nature of those nodes are like. He points

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out that there are certain neurons which specifically relate to

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and react to metabolism, and so if you want to

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simulate properly something like a brain, you probably have to

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simulate metabolism, which maybe isn't the kind of thing that

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silicon can do. So if you want to properly simulate

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a brain fully, you'd end up not really simulating anything

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but just sort of recreating a biological organism. And maybe

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that is just what's necessary to bring about consciousness. That's fine.

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The point is that you can kind of postulate that,

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or you can say that the idea that consciousness doesn't

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require a brain or something like that is unproven, or

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that consciousness is immaterial and can't be reduced as unproven.

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That's fine, but we're still not in a position to

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say that, well we know for with some confidence that

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materialism will give us an answer. I think at best

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we're left in a sort of position of agnosticism about this,

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and it seems to me that some of the typical

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thoughts that people have on this need just a little

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bit more investigation. Richard Dawkins recently became convinced that Claude

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is conscious. He wrote an essay which sort of blew

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up on the internet, right, and Yeah, a lot of

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people were quite mean to him about it. They said,

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you know, look at this man who's become convinced that

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this chatbod is conscious. And Annaly Seth makes a great

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point about that.

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Speaker 1: I will just say people were quite mean, but I

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almost feel like it's deserved, you know what I mean,

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Like when someone's been the bully for so long, mocking people,

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just showing so much scorn and derision for huge groups

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of you know, huge segments of the population, and just

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just his whole shtick is this just brutal rationality and empiricism,

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you know, And then to like believe that you that

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the the program you're talking to is conscious is just

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it's like it's like stunningly naive. And and Neil Seth

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makes a great point that I won't step on and

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I've said it before, so you'll probably recognize it. But

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before we even get there, it reminds me and I

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mentioned this in the book. The very first chapbot, which

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was made in like nineteen sixty three eight or two,

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was called Eliza, and Joseph Weisenbaum was a MIT professor

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and he employed this idea that and I'm a great

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example of this. People really just want to talk about themselves,

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you know. So if you can get the chatbot to

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mirror the person that's speaking to and ask them questions,

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you can essentially pass the touring test right there, like

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the people will think they're talking to a live person.

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And that was one hundred percent true. That's what happened.

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Many of the graduate students and administrative staff who talked

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to this thing like like almost became convinced it was

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a real person. Some people, like his assistant, the legend goes,

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would like sneak into his office to have conversations with Eliza.

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And basically it was like, you know, you might sit

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down and say hi, my name so and so say hi,

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so and so, my name is this. How are you today?

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And the student goes, oh, not so great. I'm depressed.

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And it goes, well, why are you depressed? Well, my

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boyfriend thinks I to be studying harder for finals. You know, Oh,

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does it upset you that your boyfriend feels that way?

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Like how does that make you feel? And so it's

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just question question. It's based on the Rajerian school of psychology.

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It's just this way of doing psychology where you frame

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everything around the speaker and it just gets them to

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open up and just express themselves. And it's like it

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worked in nineteen sixty three and it works in twenty

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twenty six on Richard Dawkins of all people. But in

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your set has a great comment. Let's listen this.

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Speaker 3: He says, you know, nobody is confused about whether Alpha

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fold is conscious. It does the same thing as Chat Gibt.

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It just rather than working with you know, words, it

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works with something else. You could have a chest computer,

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or you could have something which predicts amino acid structures.

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And it seems to be just because we used to

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words that we think that when we look at chatchubt oh,

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it must be conscious, But it's just because it's doing

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it with the words like fair enough. But something I

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think people missed is that Richard asked an interesting question

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at the end of his essay. He said, but Claude

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is doing all of this complex stuff. It's sort of

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writing poetry, it's reacting to its environment. If you can

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get all of that complex stuff without consciousness, then why

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did consciousness evolve? What was this?

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Speaker 1: This is the most unintentionally brilliant question that's ever been asked,

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and you'll see.

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Speaker 3: Why purpose And so for Richard, the thought was like, well,

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there's no reason why consciousness would evolve if you could

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get all this complex stuff without consciousness. So so I guess

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maybe this must be conscious right opposite, But I think.

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Speaker 1: It's so fact though. This is just why it's so

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important to acknowledge your bias, because my bias points me

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in a very different direction. But I acknowledge it. Darkin's

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bias points them in a direction to me that seems absurd.

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But he doesn't acknowledge it. I think he should. I

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think he should acknowledge this sort of this predilection, this

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sort of a priori hypothesis that you know, well, just

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think about. He goes, well, this system wasn't evolved. It

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didn't evolve. It was programmed, and so we did not

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program in subjective experience. And yet it has all the

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properties that a conscious agent might have, as a reasoning ability, memory,

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all these things. Therefore, I guess it is conscious, or

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you could say it's clearly not. And what you've really

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done is you've pointed out that there really probably isn't

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selective pressure for consciousness, because you can imagine like sort

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of a zombie universe where we're not aware, but we

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still have the same neural arc texture and reflexes and

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cognitive capacity and we just don't experience it as agents.

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So you've almost made the opposite. You've almost provided evidence

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in direct opposition to your belief, which is that there

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really is no reason for consciousness to evolve. So why

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do we have it. That's a good question.

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Speaker 3: It's a great, great point. It's such a good point

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and such a great question. But I think, as you say,

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he got it the wrong way around, which is to say, yes, like,

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what's the evolutionary purpose of consciousness? Well, there is none,

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and so the fact that it exists means that it's

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not something which is just the product of some evolutionary process,

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but rather the thing upon which the evolutionary process acts.

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Speaker 2: Would given what you said, concede what you said, would

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that mean that it's imprinciple impossible to be able to

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use consciousness in a predictive way which is acquired by science.

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Speaker 3: I think certainly, I think what just wrap up there?

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Speaker 1: This is why I will not apologize again for playing

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Alex O'Connor. Now to be fair, you know, he's just

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recounting something Dawkins said and something that Neil Seth said.

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But it's just so it's so good. It's so good,

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so please please put up with it. It's so good.

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I just ah, I just love. I love the idea

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of Richard Dawkins, author of The God Delusion and the

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Selfish Gene. And really we're a lot of our ideas

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about the primeval RNA world in the origin of life.

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Abiogenesis comes from certainly a big cultural phenomenon in regards

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to those topics. I just love the idea of him

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sitting at home at midnight in front of the blue

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glow of his laptop screen, typing, having conversations with Claude

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back and forth, and it's just man just looking into

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that black mirror, the consciousness emulation machine, blissfully unaware of

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how deceived he is by the phenomenon of language, because

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there is something so human about language, and Anil Seth's

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point is brilliant. It's brilliant. I'm saying brilliant because I've

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been listening to too much Alex O'Connor, which is nobody

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thinks Alpha wol it is conscious, but it does the

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same exact thing. It is a hidden layer of complex

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statistical interactions that predict outcomes based on training data. So

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it does the exact same thing, but it doesn't work.

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The modality that the medium isn't human language re enforced

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training too, which adds another element to it, and therefore

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it doesn't even cross your mind that it's conscious. Now

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the real extreme people will say, well, maybe it is conscious,

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and that's just like ah, I guess, I guess, I guess.

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Empiricism is dead. We just throw out wild ideas all

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the time. Anyway, this will be upsetting to some of you.

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If two choices, send me an email, and I will

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be willing to recount anything I've said that's incorrect, and

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I fully denounce. I don't even know what I said

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in that directed Pan Spermi episode, but I fully denounce it.

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I recant everything. But uh, and maybe I am guilty

415
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,200
of speculating too much. But listen, that's what this is.

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That's what this is. Don't come here. Don't come here

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00:26:50,759 --> 00:26:55,039
for your theology or you know it. I don't know,

418
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I don't know. You've been warned. This is what it is.

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It's a stream of consciousness. It's there's some evidence in

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here as well, but there are probably misquotes, you know.

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So if you're writing a book report, don't use this

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00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:13,880
as your source. But uh, for the rest of us

423
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,720
are interested in this stuff, please keep tuning in. Share

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00:27:16,759 --> 00:27:20,960
with the friend, Share with the friend. That'd be nice.

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00:27:21,559 --> 00:27:24,920
Give you something, a bond over. It's a it's it's

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00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,759
a vulnerability. It's like sharing your favorite song with someone.

427
00:27:27,799 --> 00:27:33,160
It's it's intimate. It's it's dangerous, So be careful, be

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00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,799
careful who you do it with, but say, hey, I

429
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:42,359
listened to this podcast and he hardly ever speculates or

430
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:46,480
misquotes people, so you should subscribe. I can subscribe and

431
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,839
give me a five star review. All right, everybody, thanks,

432
00:27:51,599 --> 00:27:55,680
thanks for participating in this uh social experiment which is

433
00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:00,400
recording my own talk therapy, my own Ragerian talk therapy

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00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,400
sessions over the years. I hope we can do many

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00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,839
more episodes together. Stay safe out there, God bless