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<v Speaker 3>No Pursiness, Every Void by Los each confating play host.

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<v Speaker 5>You are now listening to True Murder, The Most Shocking

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<v Speaker 5>Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have

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<v Speaker 5>written about him Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker VCK

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<v Speaker 5>every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking

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<v Speaker 5>and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with

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<v Speaker 5>your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky.

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<v Speaker 6>Good evening. This is your host Dan Zupanski for the

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<v Speaker 6>program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True Crime

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<v Speaker 6>History and the authors that are written about them. By

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<v Speaker 6>the mid nineties, women began begin disappearing from Vancouver's East

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<v Speaker 6>Side street prostitutes, drug users, the most vulnerable and desperate

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<v Speaker 6>of women vanishing from the streets. Not until the year

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<v Speaker 6>two thousand the police began closing in on Robert Willie Picton,

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<v Speaker 6>who soon would pique the world's interest as one of

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<v Speaker 6>the most prolific, shocking and bizarre serial killers of all time.

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<v Speaker 6>Stevie Cameron, Award winning investigative journalist and best selling author,

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<v Speaker 6>decided to write about and report about this case, and

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<v Speaker 6>the result was two books, The pict In Files and

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<v Speaker 6>now the definitive, never before heard, incredibly shocking story of

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<v Speaker 6>Robert Willie Picton, his murder victims, the lucky ones who

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<v Speaker 6>escaped death, the investigators that worked the case, the entire

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<v Speaker 6>fascinating story on the farm William Picton in the tragic

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<v Speaker 6>story of Vancouver's Missing Women, with my special guest, journalist

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<v Speaker 6>and author Stevie Cameron. Welcome to the program, and thank

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<v Speaker 6>you very much for Greensay's interview. Stevie Cameron.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Dan, I'm really happy to be with you.

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<v Speaker 6>Well, thank you very much. It's going to be a

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<v Speaker 6>great thrill for me. It's gonna be a great program

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<v Speaker 6>for our audience. They very much anticipated this program absolutely.

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<v Speaker 6>Now you're investigative journalist and very successful author, having written

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<v Speaker 6>about Canada's Prime Minister Brown Maroney and his years in

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<v Speaker 6>politics called On the Take and The Last Amigo, a

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<v Speaker 6>book about Carheiin Scriber Schreiber, the German Canadian arms dealer

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<v Speaker 6>and part of the airbus scandal, and you founded a

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<v Speaker 6>critically acclaimed national magazine ELM Street. What exactly was it

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<v Speaker 6>about this case and this story that made you want

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<v Speaker 6>to write two books, The Picton Files and now On

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<v Speaker 6>the farm. What compelled you to write and want to

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<v Speaker 6>write about this particular case.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it actually wasn't my idea. I mean, you're quite

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<v Speaker 2>right when you say that. I was a political journalist

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<v Speaker 2>and I wrote, I'm a white collar crime person. You know.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm interested in corrupt politicians and how they steal and

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<v Speaker 2>how they hide it and why they do it and

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<v Speaker 2>where they get it, and why they never get charged

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<v Speaker 2>and why they never get arrested, why they never go

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<v Speaker 2>to prison. So I've done a lot of that. I've

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<v Speaker 2>done five books like that. And then all of a

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<v Speaker 2>sudden my agent called me and said, how would you

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<v Speaker 2>like to write a book on the Picton case? And

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<v Speaker 2>I said, you can't be serious and she said, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I want your connounce Here in Canada, as it is

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<v Speaker 2>in the United States is a publishing company owned by

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<v Speaker 2>Random House, and so it was a wonderful, wonderful company.

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<v Speaker 2>And she said they would like you to do a

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<v Speaker 2>book on the Picton case. And I said I'll do

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<v Speaker 2>it and she said no, no, no, that's not what

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<v Speaker 2>you are I'm just offering and I have a responsibility

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<v Speaker 2>to tell you what they want you to do. This

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<v Speaker 2>isn't the kind of thing you do, and I think

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<v Speaker 2>it might be a mistake. I said, no, no, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>going to do it. Why because it's so interesting, Because

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<v Speaker 2>I said, I, uh, I feel I just can't believe

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<v Speaker 2>my luck and she's so finally acquiesced. And why did

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<v Speaker 2>I do it? Because I'm interested in criminals and I

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<v Speaker 2>got awfully tired of working on ones and never went

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<v Speaker 2>to jail. I also lived in Vancouver for many years,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm a graduate of the University British Columbia in Vancouver,

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<v Speaker 2>so I know the city well. There a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>family there. And another reason is that many years ago,

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<v Speaker 2>in my church in Toronto, I was involved in starting

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<v Speaker 2>a program to help the homeless in our church and

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<v Speaker 2>we ran a shelter there and fed them and found

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<v Speaker 2>clothes for them and so on. And I ran that

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<v Speaker 2>shelter for seventeen years, and I'm now on a couple

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<v Speaker 2>of boards that help destitute people and one board that

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<v Speaker 2>sends food to two hundred and fifty agencies in the city.

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<v Speaker 2>So I have a long history of experience with homelessness,

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<v Speaker 2>addiction and the issues around that. So when I knew

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<v Speaker 2>that the victims were prostitutes, I knew they were destitute.

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<v Speaker 2>I knew they lived in terrible places in the downtown

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<v Speaker 2>east Side in Vancouver, and in fact, I've commissioned a

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<v Speaker 2>story on the missing women of Vancouver for my magazine

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<v Speaker 2>Elm Street. And you know, to me, it was a

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<v Speaker 2>perfect fit.

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<v Speaker 6>Did you what did you initially anticipate you would learn

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<v Speaker 6>from this case, especially considering well, I don't want to

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<v Speaker 6>jump ahead, but just considering what you eventually learned about

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<v Speaker 6>the entire thing. Was there something that you initially anticipated

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<v Speaker 6>you would learn from this, especially given the great information

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<v Speaker 6>you did learn? Was there maybe a little naivity in

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<v Speaker 6>the beginning, maybe something that total So you're right.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean I didn't know how long it was going

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<v Speaker 2>to take, and you know, I just jumped right into it.

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<v Speaker 2>I actually, well, to be fair to myself, I didn't

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<v Speaker 2>jump right into it. I spent four months, four or

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<v Speaker 2>five months reading everything I could get my hands on.

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<v Speaker 2>I said, I'm not going out there till I know

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<v Speaker 2>what this is about, until I've assembled a list of

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<v Speaker 2>people to talk to. And I brought a consultant in

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<v Speaker 2>right away, a man called Ron McKay who was retired

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<v Speaker 2>Mount Here RCMP inspector in Canada, and he was the

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<v Speaker 2>first Canadian to go to Quantico, the FBI headquarters where

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<v Speaker 2>they teach people the about serial killers, and they that's

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<v Speaker 2>where they trained the profiles, right, and so Ron was

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<v Speaker 2>the first Canadian to go there, and they took one

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<v Speaker 2>more who's also a friend of mine, the following year,

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<v Speaker 2>and then they closed the program to foreigners for I

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<v Speaker 2>think for financial reasons. But he was very helpful in

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<v Speaker 2>suggesting people to talk to. And so finally when I felt,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I had a long list of names and

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<v Speaker 2>I understood the story pretty well, and they had arrested

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<v Speaker 2>picked him. They arrested him in February two thousand and two,

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<v Speaker 2>and I finally went to Vancouver in August. It took

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<v Speaker 2>me that long to really wrap my head around the

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<v Speaker 2>story and do the research. So I went to Vancouver

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<v Speaker 2>in August, and by that time I had lined up

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of people to talk to, and from that

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<v Speaker 2>time till now, I've lived there part of every year,

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes as much as two thades of the year, sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>just half a year. And because this thing has taken

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<v Speaker 2>eight years.

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<v Speaker 6>Right right now, your incredible book starts with someone named

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<v Speaker 6>Bill Wilson, and who was he and what did he

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<v Speaker 6>discover and what was especially unusual about what he did

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<v Speaker 6>discover and showed police.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, Bill Wilson test side at the preliminary hearing and

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<v Speaker 2>that's how we got his story. Also testified again at

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<v Speaker 2>the I'm sorry he didn't he testified in the trial.

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<v Speaker 2>He was he was sort of a whitler. He sold

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<v Speaker 2>bird houses and hurligigs and so on. We called him

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<v Speaker 2>the hurly gig Man. He sold these on the roadside

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<v Speaker 2>near a town called Mission. And that town is probably

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<v Speaker 2>about twenty miles from the Picton Farms, which is again

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<v Speaker 2>about twenty five miles east of Vancouver. So if you

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<v Speaker 2>think of one road that's along line with Vancouver. And

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<v Speaker 2>then he was picked and farm and foot Coquitlam. And

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<v Speaker 2>then there's a place called Mission, and there's a river

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<v Speaker 2>there that goes into it was a big slew and

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<v Speaker 2>he found the skull of a woman in the slough

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<v Speaker 2>and he reported it to the police rather reluctantly because

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<v Speaker 2>he had a criminal record himself and he was a

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<v Speaker 2>bit nervous about that. But they overlooked that. They took

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<v Speaker 2>the skull into Vancouver and they tried to find out

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<v Speaker 2>who it was. It was the skull of a woman,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was really only half a skull. It had

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<v Speaker 2>been sawn in half vertically, and that skull they did

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<v Speaker 2>a drawing of, they reconstructed the face, they did a

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<v Speaker 2>you know, they published that face on posters, and nobody

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<v Speaker 2>recognized her. She was part to a Native Indian and

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<v Speaker 2>part white, but nobody knew who she was, and so

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<v Speaker 2>she was Jane Doe. They put her skull in a

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<v Speaker 2>box and put it in a locker and it stayed

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<v Speaker 2>there for years and years. And the reason that Bill

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<v Speaker 2>Wilson's discovery was so important was that when they did

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<v Speaker 2>go on to Pickton Farm and they started finding body parts,

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<v Speaker 2>they found some of the leg bones of this Jain

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<v Speaker 2>Doe on the farm, and they also found skulls that

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<v Speaker 2>were cut in the identical way, you know, to dispose

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<v Speaker 2>of them. He cut the skulls in half, and he

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<v Speaker 2>had tried her skull into the emission slew. And that

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<v Speaker 2>to this day nobody knows who she was. She's the

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<v Speaker 2>one woman they were not unable to identify.

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<v Speaker 6>I just found it very fascinated. The first police officer.

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<v Speaker 6>It really didn't you know, it didn't ring bells or

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<v Speaker 6>set off bells in our alarms in his mind, just

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<v Speaker 6>from the mechanically cut a skull, like you say, very

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<v Speaker 6>kind of unusual, I would think. But but you say

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<v Speaker 6>that police didn't really make much of this. They didn't think.

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<v Speaker 6>They didn't really think.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's interesting. There were two people who worked on

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<v Speaker 2>Jane Doe's skull back in nineteen ninety five when they

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<v Speaker 2>found it. And one was a woman called Tracy Rodgers

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<v Speaker 2>who worked in the in the reconstruction of the face

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<v Speaker 2>so that they could put a poster out, and she

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<v Speaker 2>was a forensic anthropologist, very good, who was working quite

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<v Speaker 2>often with the ARCMP the Mountain in British Columbia. And

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<v Speaker 2>the other person was an RCNP officer called Tim Slay.

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<v Speaker 2>And both of them knew that this was a homicide

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<v Speaker 2>back in nineteen ninety five, but they could not find

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<v Speaker 2>anyone who knew who she was. They could not reconstruct

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<v Speaker 2>the face well enough so the people would identify her.

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<v Speaker 2>But both of those people, Tim Slay and Tracy Rogers,

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<v Speaker 2>worked on the Picton case many years later. They were

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<v Speaker 2>brought back, you know, it was just because it was

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<v Speaker 2>their job, not because of his skull. And finally Tracy

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<v Speaker 2>Rogers was able to match the skull and the bones

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<v Speaker 2>to this one woman, right, and Tim say worked them

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<v Speaker 2>as well, both of these people.

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<v Speaker 6>Now, maybe you can tell us the location where Willie

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<v Speaker 6>Pickton's family had property was called a farm, and talk

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<v Speaker 6>about it. Technically, I guess you could call the farm.

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<v Speaker 6>But maybe you can tell us what really the state

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<v Speaker 6>of this was, because it wasn't so much a farm,

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<v Speaker 6>you say, And who owned the property originally, and what

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<v Speaker 6>business was conducted there and who resided there?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, The Pictons were an old family in a small

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<v Speaker 2>town called Port Coquitlam, which is, as I said, about

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<v Speaker 2>twenty five miles east of Vancouver, and it's a working

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<v Speaker 2>class community which had a lot of farms and fishing.

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<v Speaker 2>And so it was on the Fraser River near the

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<v Speaker 2>mouth as of the Frasers that enters the Pacific Ocean

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<v Speaker 2>in Vancouver. And this family were always hard working, quite poor,

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<v Speaker 2>and they had their first farm was right on the

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<v Speaker 2>top of a hill right beside an insane asylum, a

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<v Speaker 2>place where the criminally insane were kept, and some of

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<v Speaker 2>these people worked on the Picton farm. Eventually they sold

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<v Speaker 2>that place and moved down the hill onto about to

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<v Speaker 2>a farm quite nearby in the little town of Port Coquitlam,

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<v Speaker 2>and Billy had a brother and a sister, and the

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<v Speaker 2>parents worked them very hard. These kids went to school

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<v Speaker 2>smelling a pig manure. They were They slapped the pigs

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<v Speaker 2>two or three times a day. The animals were allowed

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<v Speaker 2>in and out of the house, and the children were

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<v Speaker 2>shunned by had the kids them in school because of

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<v Speaker 2>their smell and their poverty and the fact that they

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<v Speaker 2>didn't fit in. And Willy was always considered a bit slow.

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<v Speaker 2>He's actually got normal intelligence, but he sort of talks

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<v Speaker 2>like Daffy Duck or something. He's got an odd voice,

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<v Speaker 2>and he's ugly and just very you know. It was

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<v Speaker 2>it was a terrible situation and these kids were I

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<v Speaker 2>shook permanently him by this. He certainly was.

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<v Speaker 6>Now, what was Willie Picked in in his life growing up?

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<v Speaker 6>Through your investigation, what was it really like?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it was very tough, he kept saying. He had

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<v Speaker 2>a hard, hard life. Willie Picked was one of these people.

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<v Speaker 2>He loved to talk, but he always tells the same story.

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<v Speaker 2>And one of the stories he tells him is about

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<v Speaker 2>how he was given a baby calf to raise and

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<v Speaker 2>it was a pet, and one day he came home

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00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:12.840
<v Speaker 2>from school and he couldn't find the calf, and his

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00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:16.000
<v Speaker 2>mother told him fairly briskly, that he should go to

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<v Speaker 2>the barn. He went to the barn and found his

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<v Speaker 2>calf had been slotted and was hanging from a hook

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00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:24.960
<v Speaker 2>in the barn. And he tells that story again and

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<v Speaker 2>again and again. It was obviously a terrible experience for him.

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<v Speaker 2>He said, well, you know, that's what happens. But he

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<v Speaker 2>had that kind of thing happened to him many times.

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<v Speaker 2>And one of the worst things that happened was the

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<v Speaker 2>time his younger brother, Dave, he had just got his

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<v Speaker 2>driver's license, and hit a young neighborhood boy on the

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<v Speaker 2>road outside the family farm. He ran home to tell

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<v Speaker 2>his parents, and his mother told him to take the car.

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<v Speaker 2>His mother and father told him to take the truck

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<v Speaker 2>it was actually a truck to the garage and get

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<v Speaker 2>it repaired. There was a dint in it act they were,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, there were some problems with it because of

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<v Speaker 2>the accident. And the mother went out to the place

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<v Speaker 2>on the road where the boy was lying and rolled

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<v Speaker 2>him into a deep flew of water beside the road

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<v Speaker 2>where he drowned.

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<v Speaker 5>Wow.

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<v Speaker 2>And so you know that the Dave Pickton was. There

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<v Speaker 2>was the assumption that Dave Pickton had just had a

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<v Speaker 2>bad accident and he was His license was taken away

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<v Speaker 2>from him. He wasn't allowed to drop till he was

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<v Speaker 2>twenty one. Nobody realized for a long time that the

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<v Speaker 2>mother had actually rolled the body into the He was

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<v Speaker 2>still alive when he was hit by the by the car,

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<v Speaker 2>and the coroner said later he would have lived despite

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<v Speaker 2>the injuries. When the drug hit him, he would have

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<v Speaker 2>he would have lived. So I tell you that story

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<v Speaker 2>down because that is the kind of family right It

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00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:50.840
<v Speaker 2>grew up in and his brother and sister made great

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00:16:50.879 --> 00:16:54.759
<v Speaker 2>successes of their lives in business. Even though his brother

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00:16:54.879 --> 00:16:57.279
<v Speaker 2>had a hell of angels want to be and you

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00:16:57.399 --> 00:17:00.679
<v Speaker 2>know that he they became very duty was boring. Hello.

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00:17:01.039 --> 00:17:03.679
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295
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296
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300
00:17:24.319 --> 00:17:25.200
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00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:26.440
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302
00:17:26.440 --> 00:17:28.640
<v Speaker 8>We're comitted by money team plus terms and conditions to places,

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00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:29.160
<v Speaker 8>every details.

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00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:32.039
<v Speaker 2>Wealthy and the selling off the farm property after their

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00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:35.920
<v Speaker 2>parents died and they had a lot of money. Willi

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00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:39.519
<v Speaker 2>Pickton as a serial killer who was also a millionaire.

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<v Speaker 6>Credible. You talk about the Hell's Angels a little bit,

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00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:46.319
<v Speaker 6>not to really involve them in this at all, but

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00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:50.279
<v Speaker 6>just certainly that in terms of proximity, the Hell's Angels

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00:17:50.319 --> 00:17:52.839
<v Speaker 6>were down the street, they had some parties, and then

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<v Speaker 6>you talk about Piggy's Palace and the Good Time Society.

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<v Speaker 6>Tell our audience a little bit about the Hell's Angels,

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<v Speaker 6>the parties and the relationship they had with the Picton's

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<v Speaker 6>and Picton's idea of kind of capitalizing on their property

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00:18:08.680 --> 00:18:13.359
<v Speaker 6>and as I mentioned, the good Time Society that they

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<v Speaker 6>set up at Piggy's Palace.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, in those days, this will probably be in the

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<v Speaker 2>early nineties. Dave picked and the younger brother, very shrewd businessman.

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<v Speaker 2>He had a business hauling soil, and he also did

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00:18:29.079 --> 00:18:35.559
<v Speaker 2>demolitions of old buildings, and he had all kinds of

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00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:37.559
<v Speaker 2>irons and fire and he kept all his trucks and

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<v Speaker 2>so on on the farm property. Willy in the meantime

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<v Speaker 2>of making a living doing odd jobs but basically running

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<v Speaker 2>a pig slaughtering business, he had placed and so on.

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<v Speaker 2>But they had lots of money because they were selling

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<v Speaker 2>off bits and pieces of their farm for development. And

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<v Speaker 2>what's very strange about this is if you picture a

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<v Speaker 2>narrow strip of farm, it's not even farmland. It's like

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00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:05.640
<v Speaker 2>a junkyard. Frankly now fourteen agus left surrounded by tracktosing,

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00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:09.359
<v Speaker 2>that's basically, and across the streets from their place the

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<v Speaker 2>two things. One was a Hell's Angels clubhouse and the

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<v Speaker 2>other one was a massive small development which and they

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00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:20.240
<v Speaker 2>faced directly on a home depot, so it's very weird.

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00:19:20.440 --> 00:19:22.720
<v Speaker 2>And down the end of their road they bought more

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00:19:22.839 --> 00:19:27.519
<v Speaker 2>land and that's where they built Piggy's Palace. From Dave's demolitions.

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00:19:28.039 --> 00:19:30.839
<v Speaker 2>He took out a bar in a hotel and he

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00:19:31.240 --> 00:19:34.359
<v Speaker 2>moved it to this barn and they had parties there.

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00:19:35.119 --> 00:19:38.559
<v Speaker 2>They brought in bands, they had food, and it was

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00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:40.640
<v Speaker 2>raided several times by the police, but a lot of

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00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:43.640
<v Speaker 2>local politicians loved going there, so they were sort of protected.

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00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:48.519
<v Speaker 2>Willie loved going there and they made a lot of money,

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00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:51.279
<v Speaker 2>but it was basically a place where the Hell's Angels

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<v Speaker 2>like to hang out, and so Dave was as far

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<v Speaker 2>as I know, he's not a patch member of the

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00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:00.440
<v Speaker 2>Hell's Angels, but he's certainly a Hell's Angel hang around

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00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:03.920
<v Speaker 2>or you know, I don't know quite what level he's reached.

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00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:08.200
<v Speaker 2>But the Hell's Angels clubhouse was directly across the street

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00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:12.960
<v Speaker 2>from the Picton's home of his farmhouse and the remains

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00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:16.680
<v Speaker 2>of the farm land. So was people would go to

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<v Speaker 2>Piggy's Palace and dance, and it was in the bands,

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<v Speaker 2>and then they'd all go back to the Hell's Angel's

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<v Speaker 2>Clubhouse and stay up all night and get drunk, and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, it was a real scene. And in the

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<v Speaker 2>city of Port Coquitlam had a terrible time trying to

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00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:33.279
<v Speaker 2>close them down. Eventually they closed down Piggy's Palace, but

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00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:36.519
<v Speaker 2>the Hell's Angels only sold that clubhouse and moved out

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00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:40.160
<v Speaker 2>of there after the Willie Tipton's rest was too hot

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<v Speaker 2>for them.

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<v Speaker 6>In that area, now, did you, I don't know did

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<v Speaker 6>Willie Picton was the sole person that resided at the

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<v Speaker 6>property though even though that David Picked and his brother

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00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:55.480
<v Speaker 6>and his sister Linda Wright were actually co owners of

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00:20:55.559 --> 00:20:58.160
<v Speaker 6>this property as well, but was it Willie primarily stayed

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<v Speaker 6>on the property.

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00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:02.119
<v Speaker 2>Well, his brother was there for a long time, and

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<v Speaker 2>the two brothers lived together for a long time after

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00:21:05.720 --> 00:21:08.799
<v Speaker 2>their parents died. And Dave's girlfriends who came, and you know,

368
00:21:08.839 --> 00:21:11.240
<v Speaker 2>he had a series of girlfriends who came, and you know,

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00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:14.839
<v Speaker 2>the first one he had two children buy her. They

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00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:19.319
<v Speaker 2>all lived together in his house. But Willie and Dave

371
00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:21.680
<v Speaker 2>fought all the time, and finally Dave kicked him out,

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00:21:22.119 --> 00:21:25.200
<v Speaker 2>and eventually they bought a trailer. First of all, it

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<v Speaker 2>was a little motor home, and then they bought a trailer.

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00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:30.759
<v Speaker 2>And so Willie lived in the motorhome at the back

375
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<v Speaker 2>of the property for a while, a couple of years,

376
00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:36.880
<v Speaker 2>and then he bought a trailer and they put it

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00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:39.759
<v Speaker 2>on a cement pad, and he lived at the back

378
00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:42.799
<v Speaker 2>of the property. And he was where he was at

379
00:21:42.839 --> 00:21:45.440
<v Speaker 2>the back of this strip of this back of a

380
00:21:45.559 --> 00:21:50.079
<v Speaker 2>sort of rectangular strip. He had a garage workshop and

381
00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:54.160
<v Speaker 2>he still had the motor homes sitting there, and he

382
00:21:54.279 --> 00:21:58.839
<v Speaker 2>had another sort of a barn, and he had a

383
00:21:58.920 --> 00:22:02.000
<v Speaker 2>bunch of a slaughter house for his pigs and there

384
00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:03.920
<v Speaker 2>was a bit of a pigoty there. It was an

385
00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:07.960
<v Speaker 2>incredible mess, all these old cars. He also traded in

386
00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:11.559
<v Speaker 2>old cars and he went to car auctions so he

387
00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:15.640
<v Speaker 2>could fix anything. So he was basically living on the

388
00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:17.960
<v Speaker 2>same property as brother as his brother, but he was

389
00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:21.759
<v Speaker 2>at the back. And then just before a year or

390
00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:25.960
<v Speaker 2>two before he's arrest, Dave moved out, bought his own

391
00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:30.599
<v Speaker 2>home down near the about a mile away, and Willy

392
00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:31.240
<v Speaker 2>was alone there.

393
00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:38.279
<v Speaker 6>Now you speak about Willie's relationships, you talked to he

394
00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:41.319
<v Speaker 6>was a guy that was kind of weird, considered creepy.

395
00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:44.799
<v Speaker 6>He had some money, he was very dirty, his hygiene

396
00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:50.240
<v Speaker 6>was had a lot to left to desire. What was

397
00:22:50.319 --> 00:22:53.160
<v Speaker 6>Willy's sex life? What did it consist of? He didn't

398
00:22:53.880 --> 00:22:56.640
<v Speaker 6>he didn't much had to have many relationships. So what

399
00:22:56.759 --> 00:22:58.880
<v Speaker 6>did his sex life consist of? What was he really like?

400
00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:04.039
<v Speaker 2>Well? I talked to people who knew him well, and

401
00:23:04.359 --> 00:23:10.119
<v Speaker 2>he he was he he had great desires, but nobody

402
00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:13.759
<v Speaker 2>wanted to go out with Willy and he he patronized

403
00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:17.960
<v Speaker 2>the sex shop in Port Coquitlam where he bought and

404
00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:21.960
<v Speaker 2>a great deal of you know sex what in Canada

405
00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:25.960
<v Speaker 2>we politely called sex toys. You know, dildo's, but he

406
00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:28.160
<v Speaker 2>bought a lot of really awful things, you know, fur

407
00:23:28.440 --> 00:23:36.920
<v Speaker 2>furry handcuffs and restraints. He bought zap straps, all the

408
00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:39.920
<v Speaker 2>tools of serial killers. You know, we now have this

409
00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:42.720
<v Speaker 2>incredible story going on in Canada right now. The man

410
00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:46.720
<v Speaker 2>was convicted today, a colonel in our military who is

411
00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:51.359
<v Speaker 2>a serial killer and killed two women not far from here.

412
00:23:51.559 --> 00:23:54.920
<v Speaker 2>And again, you though, those zap straps come into that

413
00:23:55.039 --> 00:23:58.200
<v Speaker 2>story as well. Willie was like that, and he was

414
00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:01.640
<v Speaker 2>I think he is starting to murder women from nineteen

415
00:24:01.720 --> 00:24:04.640
<v Speaker 2>ninety five on, because he certainly murdered Jane Doe and

416
00:24:05.079 --> 00:24:07.039
<v Speaker 2>her skull was found in ninety five and it was

417
00:24:07.079 --> 00:24:10.559
<v Speaker 2>a fairly new skull. What he did because he had

418
00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:13.240
<v Speaker 2>so much money and because nobody else, no woman in

419
00:24:13.319 --> 00:24:15.559
<v Speaker 2>the right lines, would go out with him. He would

420
00:24:15.640 --> 00:24:17.960
<v Speaker 2>drive it to the downtown East side of Vancouver, which

421
00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:22.680
<v Speaker 2>is famous around the world for the saddest, poorest, most

422
00:24:22.759 --> 00:24:27.160
<v Speaker 2>addicted women. It's poorest postal code in Canada. And they

423
00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:31.240
<v Speaker 2>would be wandering the streets and looking for business, and

424
00:24:31.319 --> 00:24:33.480
<v Speaker 2>he'd pick them up in bars around the streets and

425
00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:36.079
<v Speaker 2>take them back out to the farm and sometimes he

426
00:24:36.119 --> 00:24:40.599
<v Speaker 2>wouldturned them but he often killed them and he would

427
00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:43.319
<v Speaker 2>have sex with them. They went out there in the

428
00:24:43.400 --> 00:24:45.480
<v Speaker 2>first place because he would offer them more money than

429
00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:48.599
<v Speaker 2>any man on the street that stopped the car or

430
00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:51.960
<v Speaker 2>walked by, and he would offer them one hundred dollars

431
00:24:52.039 --> 00:24:55.000
<v Speaker 2>for sex, and then he would be getting ten to

432
00:24:55.079 --> 00:24:58.000
<v Speaker 2>twenty bucks, so of course, and he would offer them

433
00:24:58.039 --> 00:25:00.880
<v Speaker 2>all the free drugs they wanted, so they would go

434
00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:05.000
<v Speaker 2>out to his place. And nobody knows quite why he

435
00:25:05.119 --> 00:25:07.400
<v Speaker 2>brought some of them back and why he murdered some

436
00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:10.279
<v Speaker 2>of them. Who knows what those choices are. And some

437
00:25:10.440 --> 00:25:13.799
<v Speaker 2>women were able to talk their way out of being killed,

438
00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:17.720
<v Speaker 2>and one woman thought him nearly killed him and she

439
00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:18.720
<v Speaker 2>did survive.

440
00:25:20.279 --> 00:25:23.680
<v Speaker 6>Now you talk about how he was able to get

441
00:25:23.720 --> 00:25:26.240
<v Speaker 6>women to come out to this remote place with him,

442
00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:29.079
<v Speaker 6>even though he was creepy. So he offered drugs and

443
00:25:30.279 --> 00:25:33.680
<v Speaker 6>probably picked on people that had drug problems, but he

444
00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:37.119
<v Speaker 6>also had some assistance. He had a couple I found

445
00:25:37.119 --> 00:25:41.759
<v Speaker 6>this incredible other drug addicted women. Gina Houston, you have

446
00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:46.519
<v Speaker 6>a Dina Taylor. What were their role in actually helping

447
00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:50.359
<v Speaker 6>Willie picked and find women. I thought it was fascinating

448
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:51.720
<v Speaker 6>what they did.

449
00:25:51.960 --> 00:25:55.960
<v Speaker 2>Was Gena Houston actually lived in Port Coquitlam, and she

450
00:25:56.240 --> 00:25:59.720
<v Speaker 2>befriended him. He paid her close to one hundred thousand

451
00:25:59.720 --> 00:26:04.160
<v Speaker 2>dollars over a few years, basically to you for her

452
00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:07.839
<v Speaker 2>drugs and for her groceries. He almost had a kind

453
00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:11.200
<v Speaker 2>of non sexual relationship with a girlfriend that he never harmed.

454
00:26:11.680 --> 00:26:14.720
<v Speaker 2>And one of them was a woman called Lisa Wells Yelds,

455
00:26:14.759 --> 00:26:18.039
<v Speaker 2>whom I am still close to. She was one of

456
00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:21.519
<v Speaker 2>my best sources for this case, and she was one

457
00:26:21.559 --> 00:26:24.480
<v Speaker 2>of the women that he was very fond of, and

458
00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:28.160
<v Speaker 2>she was a neighbor. But the other two, she never

459
00:26:28.240 --> 00:26:29.960
<v Speaker 2>brought any women to the farm for him to kill,

460
00:26:30.039 --> 00:26:35.839
<v Speaker 2>but the other two did. Dinah Taylor well the woman

461
00:26:35.880 --> 00:26:38.839
<v Speaker 2>who replaced Lisa Yelds with Jennie Houston. The woman who

462
00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:43.640
<v Speaker 2>replaced Jenny Houston was Dinna Taylor, and both of these

463
00:26:43.720 --> 00:26:47.880
<v Speaker 2>women would go to the shelters and the drop ins

464
00:26:47.960 --> 00:26:52.480
<v Speaker 2>that the prostitutes and addicts in the downtown Eastside would use.

465
00:26:52.759 --> 00:26:56.559
<v Speaker 2>For example, First United Church, a wonderful community center in

466
00:26:56.680 --> 00:26:59.480
<v Speaker 2>church in the downtown Easide had a drop in for

467
00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:04.559
<v Speaker 2>these addicted prostitutes, and Dinah Taylor and Jennie Houston would

468
00:27:04.599 --> 00:27:07.599
<v Speaker 2>go there and try to talk women into coming out

469
00:27:07.640 --> 00:27:10.440
<v Speaker 2>to the farm with them for firemen, for drugs, and

470
00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:13.839
<v Speaker 2>Willie's great guy. And quite often these women were so

471
00:27:13.960 --> 00:27:18.599
<v Speaker 2>desperate they'd go and they and they didn't come back. Now,

472
00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:22.279
<v Speaker 2>we never heard any evidence that Dinnah Taylor or Genie

473
00:27:22.279 --> 00:27:27.000
<v Speaker 2>Houston helped him kill these women, but they certainly lured

474
00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:31.160
<v Speaker 2>them out to the farm with promises, as I've said

475
00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:32.559
<v Speaker 2>to you already have drugs.

476
00:27:32.279 --> 00:27:32.799
<v Speaker 6>And money, and.

477
00:27:34.519 --> 00:27:37.319
<v Speaker 2>Once in a while he'd returned them. But then he

478
00:27:37.519 --> 00:27:42.519
<v Speaker 2>killed so many. I mean, in nineteen ninety seven, two

479
00:27:42.599 --> 00:27:46.160
<v Speaker 2>years after that mission skull was found, thirteen women in

480
00:27:46.200 --> 00:27:51.079
<v Speaker 2>the downtown East Side went missing. And you're convinced that

481
00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:54.119
<v Speaker 2>he wasn't charged on all thirteen that year that we

482
00:27:54.279 --> 00:27:56.480
<v Speaker 2>know he killed out thirteen. Wow.

483
00:27:58.720 --> 00:28:03.000
<v Speaker 6>Now, did you talk about Dinah Taylor and Gina Houston,

484
00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:06.640
<v Speaker 6>whether it was evidence or not. Do you believe that

485
00:28:06.759 --> 00:28:10.200
<v Speaker 6>they you say they didn't actually assist him per se,

486
00:28:10.359 --> 00:28:13.000
<v Speaker 6>but do you believe that they knew these women's fate?

487
00:28:13.720 --> 00:28:16.599
<v Speaker 6>Was there any evidence or at least could you assume

488
00:28:16.720 --> 00:28:20.079
<v Speaker 6>that they actually knew that something had happened to these

489
00:28:20.119 --> 00:28:23.079
<v Speaker 6>women that they didn't Were they privy to that information?

490
00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:28.119
<v Speaker 2>Dinah Taylor did testify during the during the trial, very briefly,

491
00:28:29.440 --> 00:28:33.599
<v Speaker 2>and she had testified in the preliminary hearing that I

492
00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:37.880
<v Speaker 2>attended in two thousand and three, and she suggested that

493
00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:40.599
<v Speaker 2>Lilly had told her one of the women had died

494
00:28:40.680 --> 00:28:43.200
<v Speaker 2>and he'd tried to save her, and this is all

495
00:28:43.240 --> 00:28:46.039
<v Speaker 2>in a phone call she'd had with him. It was

496
00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:49.319
<v Speaker 2>very unclear to me what her role was in the

497
00:28:49.400 --> 00:28:53.200
<v Speaker 2>deaths of anybody, and nobody was ever able to prove

498
00:28:53.960 --> 00:28:56.880
<v Speaker 2>that she had helped kill anyone, and she was never charged.

499
00:28:57.480 --> 00:29:01.359
<v Speaker 2>She died recently of cancer. The other and Danna Taylor's

500
00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:05.079
<v Speaker 2>the Native woman who went back to her home in Ontario.

501
00:29:05.480 --> 00:29:09.240
<v Speaker 2>You know you're here in the province of Ontario, and

502
00:29:09.559 --> 00:29:11.640
<v Speaker 2>she did come out. She was brought back out to

503
00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:14.799
<v Speaker 2>court once, but not during a trial. And again no

504
00:29:14.960 --> 00:29:18.200
<v Speaker 2>charges were laid against either women by the police and

505
00:29:18.599 --> 00:29:21.519
<v Speaker 2>they were left alone ultimately, so I don't think the

506
00:29:21.559 --> 00:29:25.240
<v Speaker 2>police ever had enough to charge them with anything, even

507
00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:26.160
<v Speaker 2>assisting him.

508
00:29:27.160 --> 00:29:33.720
<v Speaker 6>Right right now, what was the mood, like you say

509
00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:39.400
<v Speaker 6>in ninety five women start disappearing at what time and

510
00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:42.759
<v Speaker 6>through what process? You talk about Vancouver's Sun articles, it

511
00:29:42.839 --> 00:29:48.680
<v Speaker 6>seemed to awaken people to how bad or they people

512
00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:51.960
<v Speaker 6>in the Vancouver area didn't realize how many women were missing,

513
00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:56.400
<v Speaker 6>or how big or complex or the magnitude of the

514
00:29:56.480 --> 00:30:00.039
<v Speaker 6>problem actually, So tell us what the mood was in

515
00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:03.440
<v Speaker 6>the nineties and mid nineties after these women went missing,

516
00:30:03.960 --> 00:30:08.279
<v Speaker 6>And then at what point did it seem to people

517
00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:11.480
<v Speaker 6>became aware of that maybe a serial killer was working,

518
00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:14.319
<v Speaker 6>but certainly women were disappearing from the face of the earth,

519
00:30:14.920 --> 00:30:17.759
<v Speaker 6>and a lot of women. So went give us that

520
00:30:17.839 --> 00:30:19.480
<v Speaker 6>description of that time in Vancouver.

521
00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:26.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, the problem was that in Vancouver, the police ignored

522
00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:30.640
<v Speaker 2>these women. The Vancouver police ignored these women. Their families

523
00:30:30.680 --> 00:30:35.359
<v Speaker 2>would say, my daughter's disappeared, my sister's disappeared. And I'm

524
00:30:35.400 --> 00:30:39.160
<v Speaker 2>talking basically about the mid nineties up until about nineteen

525
00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:43.759
<v Speaker 2>ninety eight, and they and nothing would happen. The man

526
00:30:43.880 --> 00:30:46.519
<v Speaker 2>in charge of the missing person's department at the Vancouver Police,

527
00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:50.440
<v Speaker 2>and we're talking about a huge city, a very big, sophisticated,

528
00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:56.599
<v Speaker 2>wealthy city, with this area of incredible poverty and addiction,

529
00:30:58.559 --> 00:31:02.039
<v Speaker 2>so that the Vancouver police seemed to have very little

530
00:31:02.079 --> 00:31:04.440
<v Speaker 2>interest in these women. The man in charge of missing

531
00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:10.599
<v Speaker 2>persons turned out years later to have a He spent

532
00:31:10.680 --> 00:31:13.880
<v Speaker 2>most of his time on his computer trolling for kitty porn.

533
00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:17.920
<v Speaker 2>He was convicted. They only had one person really in

534
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:22.240
<v Speaker 2>the missing Person's unit, and that was this criminal police officer.

535
00:31:23.799 --> 00:31:28.640
<v Speaker 2>They had one halftime assistant. They had one expert on

536
00:31:28.759 --> 00:31:33.160
<v Speaker 2>serial killers, Kim Rosswell, who's now teaching it in Texas.

537
00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:37.039
<v Speaker 2>He is a brilliant, brilliant profiler, and it was a

538
00:31:37.119 --> 00:31:41.920
<v Speaker 2>doctorate in criminology. He's taught the FDI, the pure of

539
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:46.960
<v Speaker 2>alcohol to background firearms. He's taught Scotland Yard. He's worked

540
00:31:46.960 --> 00:31:49.799
<v Speaker 2>with police forces all over the world on serial killers,

541
00:31:50.599 --> 00:31:54.960
<v Speaker 2>and Vancouver Police had him in their own department and

542
00:31:55.079 --> 00:31:57.799
<v Speaker 2>they didn't like him. Police officers tend not.

543
00:31:57.880 --> 00:32:01.680
<v Speaker 6>To like profiles. You may know that the actus.

544
00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:04.240
<v Speaker 2>You probably know that they think that there's just all,

545
00:32:05.559 --> 00:32:08.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, witchcraft, and it's not. It's not real police work.

546
00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:12.799
<v Speaker 2>But Kim Osman knew that something was in this. He

547
00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:15.240
<v Speaker 2>knew that there must be a serial killer, and other

548
00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:20.400
<v Speaker 2>people knew that it wasn't really until nineteen ninety seven

549
00:32:20.839 --> 00:32:25.960
<v Speaker 2>that when the thirteen women disappeared, that the you know,

550
00:32:26.240 --> 00:32:29.319
<v Speaker 2>really it was. It was becoming very, very alarming. In

551
00:32:29.400 --> 00:32:32.160
<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety eight, that was when I asked a writer

552
00:32:32.319 --> 00:32:34.400
<v Speaker 2>there to do a story for me from my magazine,

553
00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:38.559
<v Speaker 2>which we published in nineteen ninety nine. In about nineteen

554
00:32:38.599 --> 00:32:41.480
<v Speaker 2>ninety nine, the Bank of the Son started a campaign

555
00:32:41.599 --> 00:32:45.160
<v Speaker 2>and they started doing stories. A couple of reporters there,

556
00:32:45.359 --> 00:32:48.599
<v Speaker 2>and one in particular called Lindsay Kins, started to really

557
00:32:48.839 --> 00:32:52.559
<v Speaker 2>go after this story, talking to the families. Police still

558
00:32:52.599 --> 00:32:59.559
<v Speaker 2>didn't do anything, and finally, sometime between nineteen ninety nine,

559
00:32:59.559 --> 00:33:02.079
<v Speaker 2>I can't quite remember the data, in two thousand the

560
00:33:02.200 --> 00:33:07.920
<v Speaker 2>case was turned over to the RCMP, the Mounties, which

561
00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:11.440
<v Speaker 2>kind of preferential police force there in British Columbia, and

562
00:33:11.559 --> 00:33:16.119
<v Speaker 2>they started getting a file review and they put together

563
00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:20.119
<v Speaker 2>a list. The missing Women's List from Vancouver is sixty

564
00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:27.480
<v Speaker 2>five names, theficial list and the officers that did nothing about.

565
00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:29.960
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<v Speaker 4>Wells Fargo Bank and any member of.

588
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<v Speaker 2>DIC is quietly vanished. By the time I got there

589
00:34:31.159 --> 00:34:34.679
<v Speaker 2>in two thousand and two, these officers were not available.

590
00:34:34.719 --> 00:34:39.000
<v Speaker 2>They disappeared. They you know, they had unlisted numbers, and

591
00:34:39.559 --> 00:34:42.159
<v Speaker 2>the Vancouver Police was in disgrace and the r FMP

592
00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:43.199
<v Speaker 2>had taken over the case.

593
00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:49.320
<v Speaker 6>Now you also talk about you had alluded to the

594
00:34:49.519 --> 00:34:56.599
<v Speaker 6>BSU in quantico, the affection of the FBI that does profiling,

595
00:34:57.039 --> 00:35:01.639
<v Speaker 6>that pioneered the criminal profiling that we now know. And

596
00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:04.920
<v Speaker 6>then there was someone named Royal Hazelwood, which is people

597
00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:08.000
<v Speaker 6>who read true crime will recognize this name along with

598
00:35:08.440 --> 00:35:11.880
<v Speaker 6>the pioneers Robert K. Wrestler and John Douglas h So

599
00:35:12.039 --> 00:35:16.239
<v Speaker 6>you talked about Ray Hazelwood. When was Ray Roy Hazelwood

600
00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:19.679
<v Speaker 6>brought in? And again, how did the Vancouver police react

601
00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:23.800
<v Speaker 6>to his attempt at profiling. We already know that Kim

602
00:35:23.880 --> 00:35:27.719
<v Speaker 6>Rosmo was was dismissed basically, and and they didn't like him,

603
00:35:27.719 --> 00:35:29.239
<v Speaker 6>and they didn't like him claiming that it was a

604
00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:33.559
<v Speaker 6>serial killer and didn't believe in his form of geographical

605
00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:37.800
<v Speaker 6>geographical profiling. So what did they say when a legend

606
00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:41.119
<v Speaker 6>like Roy Hazelwood, who had worked with all kinds of

607
00:35:41.599 --> 00:35:45.239
<v Speaker 6>major cases and I think even the Gary Ridgeway cave

608
00:35:45.320 --> 00:35:48.400
<v Speaker 6>tell us about the Gary Ridgeway connection and Roy Hazelwood

609
00:35:48.440 --> 00:35:50.960
<v Speaker 6>and the reaction to what he had said and what

610
00:35:51.079 --> 00:35:52.199
<v Speaker 6>he had told police.

611
00:35:53.239 --> 00:35:57.559
<v Speaker 2>Well, it was really interesting when the when the worknated

612
00:35:57.559 --> 00:36:00.519
<v Speaker 2>amount of police took over the case, set up a

613
00:36:00.599 --> 00:36:03.119
<v Speaker 2>task force and they set it up with the Vancouver Police.

614
00:36:03.199 --> 00:36:06.880
<v Speaker 2>They tried to bring peace and harmony and they brought

615
00:36:06.920 --> 00:36:10.239
<v Speaker 2>in some of the Vancouver Police officers to work with him.

616
00:36:10.280 --> 00:36:13.880
<v Speaker 2>But it was definitely a mounted case and they were

617
00:36:15.159 --> 00:36:19.920
<v Speaker 2>getting ready to interview picked. And what happened was that

618
00:36:20.119 --> 00:36:23.599
<v Speaker 2>they were able to arrest him in February two thousand

619
00:36:23.639 --> 00:36:26.920
<v Speaker 2>and two. They were able to get until then, they

620
00:36:26.960 --> 00:36:28.559
<v Speaker 2>had been unable to get a search point to go

621
00:36:28.639 --> 00:36:32.280
<v Speaker 2>on the farm. He was a prime suspect them from

622
00:36:33.239 --> 00:36:37.599
<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety nine on. He was the prime suspect. It

623
00:36:37.719 --> 00:36:40.280
<v Speaker 2>took them till two thousand and two to get on

624
00:36:40.440 --> 00:36:42.519
<v Speaker 2>his farm, to get a search point to get on

625
00:36:42.599 --> 00:36:46.559
<v Speaker 2>the farm. And when they got on because he had

626
00:36:46.639 --> 00:36:49.440
<v Speaker 2>illegal weapons, not because they were able to get on

627
00:36:49.559 --> 00:36:51.400
<v Speaker 2>on a search point on missing women. They got on

628
00:36:51.719 --> 00:36:54.239
<v Speaker 2>a search point and put missing for the illegal guns,

629
00:36:55.239 --> 00:36:57.280
<v Speaker 2>and when they got on the farm they found the

630
00:36:57.440 --> 00:37:00.000
<v Speaker 2>belongings of many of these missing women. They always knew

631
00:37:00.159 --> 00:37:03.840
<v Speaker 2>he was the right guy, but they couldn't get on

632
00:37:03.920 --> 00:37:07.039
<v Speaker 2>the phone, so they had very very little time in

633
00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:10.880
<v Speaker 2>which to get ready to interview him for you know,

634
00:37:10.960 --> 00:37:14.519
<v Speaker 2>the formal interrogation. And they were scrambling around trying to

635
00:37:14.519 --> 00:37:17.320
<v Speaker 2>figure out what to do, and they decided to bring

636
00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:19.960
<v Speaker 2>in down the advice of one of the police officers

637
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:23.559
<v Speaker 2>who was a profile. They decided to bring in Roy

638
00:37:23.639 --> 00:37:28.719
<v Speaker 2>hazel Wood, and they the police officers who were really

639
00:37:28.760 --> 00:37:30.880
<v Speaker 2>in charge of the case at the time, had very

640
00:37:30.880 --> 00:37:34.880
<v Speaker 2>little faith in this. But you know, there was you know,

641
00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:38.239
<v Speaker 2>from shame and what had happened to Kim Rossmo when

642
00:37:38.280 --> 00:37:40.440
<v Speaker 2>he'd been dismissed from the Vancouver Police, and they thought

643
00:37:41.039 --> 00:37:44.719
<v Speaker 2>they'd give it a try. They bought Roy hazel Wood up.

644
00:37:45.400 --> 00:37:49.159
<v Speaker 2>But they'd chosen a young star in the ICMP to interview,

645
00:37:49.679 --> 00:37:52.639
<v Speaker 2>to interrogate fist and they called the interview and he

646
00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:55.400
<v Speaker 2>had no interest in dealing with the profile. He said,

647
00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:58.800
<v Speaker 2>they have nothing of value to teach me. He felt

648
00:37:58.920 --> 00:38:06.639
<v Speaker 2>he was the trained, you know, trained in questioning suspects, right,

649
00:38:06.840 --> 00:38:09.960
<v Speaker 2>and he you know, he was part of the I'm

650
00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:13.039
<v Speaker 2>forgetting the word now for it, but polygraph unit, okay,

651
00:38:13.199 --> 00:38:17.199
<v Speaker 2>so he administered polygraph law detector tests. So he was

652
00:38:17.239 --> 00:38:20.199
<v Speaker 2>a trained interviewer and he wasn't interested in having Roye Hazelwood.

653
00:38:20.239 --> 00:38:22.760
<v Speaker 2>But there was a mountain there on the team, a

654
00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:26.880
<v Speaker 2>woman who called Dana Lilies, who really really pushed for

655
00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:30.360
<v Speaker 2>him to come because obviously, to someone like Dana Lillies,

656
00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:33.119
<v Speaker 2>this man was you know, just the leader in the field.

657
00:38:33.639 --> 00:38:38.119
<v Speaker 2>So Roy Mazelwood came up. They basically did not use him,

658
00:38:39.039 --> 00:38:41.800
<v Speaker 2>and they sent him home. And one of the things

659
00:38:41.840 --> 00:38:45.480
<v Speaker 2>that happened was that he told them not to rely

660
00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:50.800
<v Speaker 2>on Picton's conscience. They said, don't He said to them, don't,

661
00:38:52.639 --> 00:38:55.079
<v Speaker 2>you know, don't think he has a conscience. Don't appeal

662
00:38:55.119 --> 00:38:59.480
<v Speaker 2>to his conscience, to his sense of conscience or anything

663
00:38:59.559 --> 00:39:01.679
<v Speaker 2>like that. It's not going to work, you know. Basically,

664
00:39:01.800 --> 00:39:06.480
<v Speaker 2>you appeal to his ego. Exactly a great guy, he is,

665
00:39:06.760 --> 00:39:10.840
<v Speaker 2>so almost the first question that the Canadian officer asked him.

666
00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:14.400
<v Speaker 2>After Roy hazel One went home without being properly used

667
00:39:14.519 --> 00:39:16.159
<v Speaker 2>or I think he was only there a day and

668
00:39:16.159 --> 00:39:18.920
<v Speaker 2>a half or two days. They drove him to the

669
00:39:18.920 --> 00:39:22.800
<v Speaker 2>airport and sent him on his way. I remember the

670
00:39:22.800 --> 00:39:26.159
<v Speaker 2>police officers saying to pick him in the interrogation because

671
00:39:26.159 --> 00:39:28.360
<v Speaker 2>we watched it, you know, we watched the videos of it.

672
00:39:29.159 --> 00:39:31.519
<v Speaker 2>He said, you know, Willie, think of your mother up

673
00:39:31.559 --> 00:39:33.719
<v Speaker 2>in heaven. Do the right thing for her, you know,

674
00:39:33.880 --> 00:39:35.639
<v Speaker 2>WILLI picked him just looked at him as if he

675
00:39:36.280 --> 00:39:42.159
<v Speaker 2>crawled down under the rock if it. Yeah, yeah, advice

676
00:39:42.280 --> 00:39:43.760
<v Speaker 2>was absolutely right on the money.

677
00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:51.480
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, it's amazing. So they don't. They don't take his input.

678
00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:51.440
<v Speaker 4>And.

679
00:39:54.440 --> 00:39:56.440
<v Speaker 6>So then there's a lawsuit as well, which I thought

680
00:39:56.559 --> 00:39:59.679
<v Speaker 6>was interesting that Kim Rosma there was quite a bit

681
00:39:59.679 --> 00:40:02.119
<v Speaker 6>of him burrissment for the police force because he had

682
00:40:02.480 --> 00:40:05.840
<v Speaker 6>already launched a lawsuit for his dismissal or his treatment

683
00:40:05.920 --> 00:40:10.039
<v Speaker 6>by the police. So that didn't help or the look

684
00:40:10.239 --> 00:40:12.920
<v Speaker 6>or the reputation of the Vancouver Police Department and all

685
00:40:13.000 --> 00:40:19.320
<v Speaker 6>this at all. Now, who is Scott Chubb? And we

686
00:40:19.480 --> 00:40:23.679
<v Speaker 6>talked about how the police got onto Picton's property through

687
00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:27.719
<v Speaker 6>illegal weapons charges and that's how they had him arrested.

688
00:40:27.840 --> 00:40:31.159
<v Speaker 6>But who is Scott Chubb? Did he initially say to

689
00:40:31.239 --> 00:40:34.719
<v Speaker 6>police and why? And what did he eventually tell police?

690
00:40:35.239 --> 00:40:37.800
<v Speaker 6>Scott Chubb's a very important person in this story. Tell

691
00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:40.239
<v Speaker 6>us about Scott Chubb, police, Well.

692
00:40:40.199 --> 00:40:43.199
<v Speaker 2>Scott Chubb is a real character, and I went to

693
00:40:43.320 --> 00:40:46.920
<v Speaker 2>interview him. I found him in a small town in

694
00:40:47.039 --> 00:40:50.920
<v Speaker 2>the interior British Columbia and had a long talk with him.

695
00:40:51.440 --> 00:40:55.639
<v Speaker 2>Scott Chubb was one of Dave Pickton's truck drivers and

696
00:40:56.280 --> 00:40:58.519
<v Speaker 2>worked in the demolition business with him and helped to

697
00:40:58.559 --> 00:41:01.440
<v Speaker 2>build the Piggy's Palace, you know, the place that they

698
00:41:01.480 --> 00:41:04.960
<v Speaker 2>all partied in down the road from the farm, and

699
00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:08.159
<v Speaker 2>he was quite a character. He had a criminal record

700
00:41:09.079 --> 00:41:12.800
<v Speaker 2>and he got into this case because he was broke.

701
00:41:13.519 --> 00:41:17.519
<v Speaker 2>He needed money and he had a small family, a

702
00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:20.159
<v Speaker 2>baby and a wife, and he went to the police

703
00:41:20.280 --> 00:41:23.480
<v Speaker 2>as a tipster on drugs and they said they weren't

704
00:41:23.519 --> 00:41:26.400
<v Speaker 2>interested in his drug information because they already knew all

705
00:41:26.400 --> 00:41:29.280
<v Speaker 2>about the people, you know, with marijuana grow ups and

706
00:41:29.400 --> 00:41:31.880
<v Speaker 2>for so he said, well, he was desperate for money,

707
00:41:31.880 --> 00:41:33.719
<v Speaker 2>and he said, well, what's it worth to you if

708
00:41:33.719 --> 00:41:36.480
<v Speaker 2>I tell you about some illegal weapons? So they said, well,

709
00:41:36.519 --> 00:41:38.519
<v Speaker 2>that's interesting. So when they found out it was the

710
00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:41.360
<v Speaker 2>Pickton farm and they'd been waiting for months to have

711
00:41:41.400 --> 00:41:45.719
<v Speaker 2>an excuse to get on that farm. They worked very

712
00:41:45.800 --> 00:41:48.800
<v Speaker 2>closely with Scott Chubb and he said they were these

713
00:41:48.840 --> 00:41:50.519
<v Speaker 2>guns on the farm. He told him where they were

714
00:41:51.119 --> 00:41:53.039
<v Speaker 2>and they said they would pay him some money if

715
00:41:54.920 --> 00:41:58.000
<v Speaker 2>his tip proved to be true. But basically they were

716
00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:01.039
<v Speaker 2>after picked in for the women, and so it did

717
00:42:01.119 --> 00:42:04.039
<v Speaker 2>give them a chance to get a search warrant. They

718
00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:06.039
<v Speaker 2>got a search WANT. They went on the farm one

719
00:42:06.159 --> 00:42:09.360
<v Speaker 2>night and it was all carefully planned. It was half

720
00:42:09.400 --> 00:42:11.280
<v Speaker 2>an hour left in the search want by the time

721
00:42:11.320 --> 00:42:13.320
<v Speaker 2>they were able to get on the property, and they

722
00:42:13.400 --> 00:42:16.280
<v Speaker 2>did find the guns. Scott Chubb had told the truth

723
00:42:16.280 --> 00:42:19.519
<v Speaker 2>about the guns, and several of the women that picked

724
00:42:19.559 --> 00:42:21.039
<v Speaker 2>and killed a shot in the back of the head

725
00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:27.559
<v Speaker 2>before they were dismembered. So those guns were very important.

726
00:42:27.719 --> 00:42:31.519
<v Speaker 2>And then they took over the farm because they found

727
00:42:31.880 --> 00:42:36.400
<v Speaker 2>the identification and belongings, lots of his belongings and IV

728
00:42:36.639 --> 00:42:40.639
<v Speaker 2>cuts and you know, all sorts of identification of these

729
00:42:40.679 --> 00:42:44.960
<v Speaker 2>women on the property. So Scott Chubb became a very

730
00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:48.760
<v Speaker 2>important witness for them, and he told them that Willie

731
00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:52.800
<v Speaker 2>picked and had told him that he was killing women.

732
00:42:52.880 --> 00:42:57.079
<v Speaker 2>And he told the police how Willie picked and killed

733
00:42:57.079 --> 00:42:59.880
<v Speaker 2>the women. You know that Willi picked and told him

734
00:42:59.880 --> 00:43:03.800
<v Speaker 2>how he killed the women. So all of this was

735
00:43:04.239 --> 00:43:07.639
<v Speaker 2>made Scott Chubb an absolutely key witness, and he remained

736
00:43:07.639 --> 00:43:10.239
<v Speaker 2>a key witness over the next few years as this

737
00:43:10.840 --> 00:43:11.719
<v Speaker 2>process dragged on.

738
00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:16.800
<v Speaker 6>Now you talked about that he told Scott how he

739
00:43:16.920 --> 00:43:20.000
<v Speaker 6>did kill the women, and I'll get you to tell

740
00:43:20.119 --> 00:43:23.119
<v Speaker 6>us how we did that if you could.

741
00:43:24.199 --> 00:43:26.360
<v Speaker 2>Scott Chubb's said that one day that he and Willy

742
00:43:26.440 --> 00:43:30.800
<v Speaker 2>were pulling nails out of out of boards. You know,

743
00:43:30.880 --> 00:43:34.840
<v Speaker 2>Willi was the brothers were involved in many Dave's business

744
00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:40.199
<v Speaker 2>of you know, tearing down properties and selling me whatever

745
00:43:40.360 --> 00:43:44.440
<v Speaker 2>was useful. He was in demolition and he would go

746
00:43:44.519 --> 00:43:48.400
<v Speaker 2>on demolished buildings, and so Willy and Day and Scott

747
00:43:48.480 --> 00:43:51.480
<v Speaker 2>Chubb were working one day pulling nails out of some wood,

748
00:43:51.679 --> 00:43:56.440
<v Speaker 2>and Willy decided to entertain himself by telling Scott about

749
00:43:56.480 --> 00:43:58.559
<v Speaker 2>how he killed women. It was just the bizarre and

750
00:43:58.639 --> 00:44:01.320
<v Speaker 2>he said he he what he would do was after

751
00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:03.239
<v Speaker 2>they had sex, he would get them out to the

752
00:44:03.320 --> 00:44:06.360
<v Speaker 2>farm to pay them, and they do some drugs. And

753
00:44:06.800 --> 00:44:09.760
<v Speaker 2>Willie never did drugs. Willy never even had a cup

754
00:44:09.800 --> 00:44:15.199
<v Speaker 2>of coffee. He was never smoked a cigarette. He had

755
00:44:15.239 --> 00:44:17.760
<v Speaker 2>no use for drugs. But he always had drugs to

756
00:44:17.800 --> 00:44:21.800
<v Speaker 2>give other people. And so he told the Scott schud

757
00:44:21.800 --> 00:44:24.960
<v Speaker 2>that once the woman had had sex and she you know,

758
00:44:25.039 --> 00:44:26.480
<v Speaker 2>he'd been able to get her out of the drugs,

759
00:44:27.039 --> 00:44:32.199
<v Speaker 2>he would then handcuff her behind her back, behind her back,

760
00:44:32.360 --> 00:44:35.440
<v Speaker 2>put her hands behind her back, and usually she was

761
00:44:35.559 --> 00:44:40.000
<v Speaker 2>so high by that time she couldn't exist. And then

762
00:44:40.039 --> 00:44:45.119
<v Speaker 2>he would strangle her and take to take her out

763
00:44:45.199 --> 00:44:48.719
<v Speaker 2>to his slaughterhouse behind his trailer, hang her up on

764
00:44:48.840 --> 00:44:56.199
<v Speaker 2>a hook, winch her up and dismember her, and we

765
00:44:56.440 --> 00:45:00.400
<v Speaker 2>heard testimony and evidence from the various witness in the

766
00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:06.800
<v Speaker 2>trial that the bodies were dismembered with a suzzle and

767
00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:09.320
<v Speaker 2>it was cut down through the He was cut down

768
00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:12.239
<v Speaker 2>through the middle of the skull, down the front of

769
00:45:12.280 --> 00:45:13.760
<v Speaker 2>the face, and down the back of the head and

770
00:45:13.840 --> 00:45:17.400
<v Speaker 2>then snapped the skull in half, which was identical to

771
00:45:17.519 --> 00:45:19.800
<v Speaker 2>the way that Jane Doe, the skull that had been

772
00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:22.880
<v Speaker 2>found in the mission flew in nineteen ninety five. That

773
00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:26.119
<v Speaker 2>was exactly how that skull had been taken apart, and

774
00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:30.119
<v Speaker 2>that's why he was charged with Jane Jane Doe's murder eventually,

775
00:45:30.320 --> 00:45:33.599
<v Speaker 2>especially after her feet and ankle bones were found on

776
00:45:33.639 --> 00:45:37.400
<v Speaker 2>the firm. So he told Scottchubb all about this, and

777
00:45:38.920 --> 00:45:42.840
<v Speaker 2>Scott Chubb eventually told the police, but initially, as far

778
00:45:42.920 --> 00:45:47.079
<v Speaker 2>as we know, initially Scott Chubb contacted the police to

779
00:45:47.199 --> 00:45:51.079
<v Speaker 2>try to give him information about some drug dealers that

780
00:45:51.199 --> 00:45:52.960
<v Speaker 2>they said they weren't interested in the drug dealers they

781
00:45:53.039 --> 00:45:55.519
<v Speaker 2>knew about them. That's when he went talked to them

782
00:45:55.519 --> 00:45:58.519
<v Speaker 2>about Willie and the guns, and then later he told

783
00:45:58.559 --> 00:46:03.960
<v Speaker 2>them about the Willy and the way that he talked

784
00:46:03.960 --> 00:46:07.079
<v Speaker 2>to him about killing these women. But there was there's

785
00:46:07.079 --> 00:46:08.639
<v Speaker 2>been a lot of doubt about that. I mean, we

786
00:46:08.760 --> 00:46:13.880
<v Speaker 2>wonder whether the police didn't know about Scott Chubbs what

787
00:46:14.119 --> 00:46:17.079
<v Speaker 2>Willy had told Scott Chubb earlier than that that we

788
00:46:17.199 --> 00:46:19.320
<v Speaker 2>have no way of knowing that. I'm just telling you

789
00:46:19.400 --> 00:46:22.719
<v Speaker 2>what emerged at the trial right now.

790
00:46:22.840 --> 00:46:24.960
<v Speaker 6>The other part of this too is Scott Chubb it

791
00:46:25.119 --> 00:46:31.079
<v Speaker 6>talked about about the plot that Willy had said to

792
00:46:31.159 --> 00:46:35.000
<v Speaker 6>him that he wanted to silence someone named Lynn Eleix

793
00:46:35.079 --> 00:46:39.280
<v Speaker 6>and Ellingson and and so then there was rumors that

794
00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:42.800
<v Speaker 6>had reached police that she had told friends about her

795
00:46:42.880 --> 00:46:47.000
<v Speaker 6>witnessing picked and slaughtering a woman in that same slaughterhouse

796
00:46:47.039 --> 00:46:53.519
<v Speaker 6>slash barn. But there was so explain that she there

797
00:46:53.599 --> 00:46:57.440
<v Speaker 6>was rumors police went and questioned her. Then she denied

798
00:46:57.559 --> 00:47:01.000
<v Speaker 6>anything like that. And then Scott Schubb talked about some

799
00:47:02.079 --> 00:47:04.800
<v Speaker 6>that Willie Pickton had mentioned to him that he might

800
00:47:04.960 --> 00:47:07.760
<v Speaker 6>might want to have Lynn hurt. So tell us about

801
00:47:07.800 --> 00:47:12.280
<v Speaker 6>this whole fascinating aspect. This is another bizarre chapter in

802
00:47:12.360 --> 00:47:13.599
<v Speaker 6>this crazy story.

803
00:47:14.519 --> 00:47:16.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, you know it's it's it's funny. Dan. I have

804
00:47:17.039 --> 00:47:20.519
<v Speaker 2>a feeling that this story sounds very complicated and huge,

805
00:47:20.599 --> 00:47:24.079
<v Speaker 2>and nothing connects to everything else. But it all does

806
00:47:24.159 --> 00:47:27.880
<v Speaker 2>connect because and really the cast of characters is not

807
00:47:28.039 --> 00:47:31.679
<v Speaker 2>so small. I mean, it's it's fairly small. What happened

808
00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:36.039
<v Speaker 2>was that Lynn Ellington was an addict who had was

809
00:47:36.119 --> 00:47:39.880
<v Speaker 2>living out in the Port Coquitlam area and she met

810
00:47:40.199 --> 00:47:44.199
<v Speaker 2>the famous Gina Houston in a drug in a recovery house.

811
00:47:44.320 --> 00:47:46.039
<v Speaker 2>You know. She was she was trying to clean up

812
00:47:46.119 --> 00:47:49.360
<v Speaker 2>her act and kick drugs, and that she had no

813
00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:51.800
<v Speaker 2>place to go when she left this recovery house, and

814
00:47:51.920 --> 00:47:54.840
<v Speaker 2>Gena Houston was there as well. So she said, well,

815
00:47:54.840 --> 00:47:57.679
<v Speaker 2>I have a friend called Willie Picton and he he

816
00:47:57.800 --> 00:47:59.599
<v Speaker 2>has room at his place, and I'm sure you could

817
00:47:59.639 --> 00:48:02.760
<v Speaker 2>go there to find a place to live. And Lynn

818
00:48:02.800 --> 00:48:06.239
<v Speaker 2>Ellingson had no other place to go. And I got

819
00:48:06.280 --> 00:48:08.360
<v Speaker 2>to know them Lynn Ellingson a bit, and I certainly

820
00:48:08.400 --> 00:48:11.880
<v Speaker 2>saw her at court over the years, and she the

821
00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:19.599
<v Speaker 2>good looking woman, intelligent, very you know, in many ways

822
00:48:19.719 --> 00:48:22.920
<v Speaker 2>quite appealing, but she had a terrible addiction that she

823
00:48:23.000 --> 00:48:25.480
<v Speaker 2>simply couldn't kick, and she would do anything for drugs.

824
00:48:26.440 --> 00:48:28.800
<v Speaker 2>She went out to the farm. She was one of

825
00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:30.639
<v Speaker 2>the women that Willy never hurt, you know, was one

826
00:48:30.679 --> 00:48:32.599
<v Speaker 2>of the sort of girlfriends that hung around the place,

827
00:48:32.679 --> 00:48:36.920
<v Speaker 2>and many many liked that, and so she lived in

828
00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:38.760
<v Speaker 2>his trailer at one end of his He had a

829
00:48:38.800 --> 00:48:40.800
<v Speaker 2>big trailer, and she had a bedroom at one end

830
00:48:40.840 --> 00:48:43.280
<v Speaker 2>and he had a bedroom at the other, and she

831
00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:45.840
<v Speaker 2>lived there. She helped him with his She kept the

832
00:48:45.880 --> 00:48:50.119
<v Speaker 2>place cleaning, she did some cooking, and she took all

833
00:48:50.199 --> 00:48:54.719
<v Speaker 2>the orders for soil and cars, anything else that anything

834
00:48:54.760 --> 00:48:59.760
<v Speaker 2>people wanted from Willy, whether they wanted a butchered pig,

835
00:49:00.199 --> 00:49:02.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, from his freezers, or whether they wanted him

836
00:49:02.360 --> 00:49:05.760
<v Speaker 2>to fix a car, whether they wanted soil from the

837
00:49:06.119 --> 00:49:08.880
<v Speaker 2>soil business that they had, you know, spreading fresh soil

838
00:49:08.960 --> 00:49:12.800
<v Speaker 2>on people's gardens. So she would help with that. And

839
00:49:13.320 --> 00:49:17.280
<v Speaker 2>one day they went really after if she'd mind there,

840
00:49:17.440 --> 00:49:20.159
<v Speaker 2>if he went into town to get a girl, a prostitute,

841
00:49:20.199 --> 00:49:23.760
<v Speaker 2>and she went with him because he promised her drugs.

842
00:49:24.440 --> 00:49:27.039
<v Speaker 2>They went into Vancouver's downtown east side and picked up

843
00:49:27.039 --> 00:49:32.159
<v Speaker 2>a woman and brought her back, and Lynn Ellingson testified

844
00:49:32.199 --> 00:49:34.159
<v Speaker 2>that she went to one end of the trailer with

845
00:49:34.320 --> 00:49:37.760
<v Speaker 2>her drugs it was crack cocaine, and settled down with

846
00:49:37.880 --> 00:49:40.639
<v Speaker 2>her crack pipe and really went to the other end

847
00:49:40.679 --> 00:49:43.760
<v Speaker 2>of the trailer with the woman and later on, she

848
00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:48.400
<v Speaker 2>heard a scream. She was completely stoned. She didn't know,

849
00:49:48.880 --> 00:49:50.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, really where she or whether that she was doing,

850
00:49:50.920 --> 00:49:54.119
<v Speaker 2>but she looked out the window and she knew that

851
00:49:54.480 --> 00:49:56.679
<v Speaker 2>the scream that comes from outside. She went looked out

852
00:49:56.719 --> 00:49:59.639
<v Speaker 2>the window and saw a light in the barn and

853
00:50:00.239 --> 00:50:03.280
<v Speaker 2>the slaughterhouse went out there and saw the woman that

854
00:50:03.360 --> 00:50:05.480
<v Speaker 2>they'd picked up in the downtown east Side hanging from

855
00:50:05.519 --> 00:50:09.719
<v Speaker 2>a hook, and Willie was starting to cut her up,

856
00:50:10.239 --> 00:50:14.840
<v Speaker 2>and Willie threatened to kill her, and he made her

857
00:50:14.920 --> 00:50:17.960
<v Speaker 2>promise that she would never tell what she'd seen, and

858
00:50:19.239 --> 00:50:21.159
<v Speaker 2>she fled from the farm as soon as she could.

859
00:50:21.199 --> 00:50:22.679
<v Speaker 2>I think it's the next day she got someone to

860
00:50:22.719 --> 00:50:25.880
<v Speaker 2>come and get her, and later on she talked to

861
00:50:25.960 --> 00:50:29.679
<v Speaker 2>the police about it. But she was talking to the

862
00:50:29.760 --> 00:50:33.719
<v Speaker 2>police in nineteen ninety nine about this, and it took

863
00:50:33.840 --> 00:50:36.559
<v Speaker 2>till two thousand and two for the police to get

864
00:50:36.599 --> 00:50:37.760
<v Speaker 2>on that farm and arrest him.

865
00:50:38.679 --> 00:50:43.599
<v Speaker 6>Incredible, incredible, I know, it.

866
00:50:44.280 --> 00:50:47.559
<v Speaker 2>Just seems unreal to me that it took so long.

867
00:50:47.719 --> 00:50:50.039
<v Speaker 2>And I mean, that's what I was writing about, what

868
00:50:50.199 --> 00:50:52.960
<v Speaker 2>was happening during these years? Why what was the problem?

869
00:50:53.119 --> 00:50:55.800
<v Speaker 2>Why were they not getting out there? And there was

870
00:50:55.840 --> 00:50:58.920
<v Speaker 2>a police officer in Vancouver who had talked to her

871
00:51:00.039 --> 00:51:03.840
<v Speaker 2>and believed her story, but they couldn't get anybody else

872
00:51:03.960 --> 00:51:06.199
<v Speaker 2>to take an interest. I believe it. And they also

873
00:51:06.280 --> 00:51:08.880
<v Speaker 2>couldn't get a search warrant to get on the property.

874
00:51:08.960 --> 00:51:13.039
<v Speaker 2>The regional Crown prosecutor, which is what they call them here,

875
00:51:13.079 --> 00:51:15.440
<v Speaker 2>I don't I don't know what the equivalent would be

876
00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:19.559
<v Speaker 2>in the United States, but you know, the district attorney,

877
00:51:19.599 --> 00:51:21.639
<v Speaker 2>I guess that's what you say. It wouldn't give them

878
00:51:21.679 --> 00:51:24.400
<v Speaker 2>a search warrant to get on because he said, you

879
00:51:24.440 --> 00:51:27.079
<v Speaker 2>don't have enough evidence. You know, it's a serious thing.

880
00:51:27.119 --> 00:51:28.920
<v Speaker 2>We can't issue a search warrant and we don't have

881
00:51:29.800 --> 00:51:32.719
<v Speaker 2>and we only have the word of an addicted woman

882
00:51:32.800 --> 00:51:35.360
<v Speaker 2>who was probably too high to know what she was

883
00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:35.920
<v Speaker 2>talking about.

884
00:51:36.960 --> 00:51:41.079
<v Speaker 6>Yes, I found that aspect of this just incredible. That

885
00:51:41.320 --> 00:51:45.519
<v Speaker 6>she was discredited because she did drugs. But it seemed

886
00:51:45.559 --> 00:51:48.519
<v Speaker 6>to be not that this is evidence itself, but if

887
00:51:48.559 --> 00:51:50.280
<v Speaker 6>you were to apply any kind of logic to it,

888
00:51:50.400 --> 00:51:53.920
<v Speaker 6>why anyone would testify to that, Why anyone would make

889
00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:58.840
<v Speaker 6>up a story like that? And there were certain again,

890
00:52:00.039 --> 00:52:02.679
<v Speaker 6>and Scott Schubb talked about certain things. At least it

891
00:52:02.800 --> 00:52:05.880
<v Speaker 6>was backed up by evidence that the police found, so

892
00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:08.360
<v Speaker 6>it at least corroborated the story to a certain degree.

893
00:52:09.199 --> 00:52:12.000
<v Speaker 6>Now we spoke initially, you said there was an incredible

894
00:52:12.039 --> 00:52:17.079
<v Speaker 6>amount of forensic evidence, and this case was primarily about

895
00:52:17.159 --> 00:52:19.800
<v Speaker 6>that to be able to convict this person. Maybe you

896
00:52:19.840 --> 00:52:22.280
<v Speaker 6>can tell us about what they did find at that

897
00:52:22.599 --> 00:52:25.519
<v Speaker 6>farm when they finally did go on there and do

898
00:52:25.679 --> 00:52:30.039
<v Speaker 6>the big investigative. I mean, it was incredible the amount

899
00:52:30.039 --> 00:52:32.559
<v Speaker 6>of people that were involved and the amount of work

900
00:52:32.599 --> 00:52:36.880
<v Speaker 6>that was undertaken at that farm to find evidence. What

901
00:52:37.039 --> 00:52:39.039
<v Speaker 6>I would like to know is, because we only got

902
00:52:39.039 --> 00:52:41.239
<v Speaker 6>about nine minutes left, this hour has really gone by,

903
00:52:41.400 --> 00:52:46.400
<v Speaker 6>is that how many victims did they actually find there?

904
00:52:46.480 --> 00:52:49.320
<v Speaker 6>Because people have heard the number twenty six and then

905
00:52:49.360 --> 00:52:52.079
<v Speaker 6>there was an eventual trial of only six, so it

906
00:52:52.119 --> 00:52:54.239
<v Speaker 6>can maybe you can tell us what happened in that

907
00:52:54.360 --> 00:52:57.639
<v Speaker 6>twenty six and six how that all worked.

908
00:52:58.599 --> 00:53:02.079
<v Speaker 2>They found when the police went on farm on February

909
00:53:02.119 --> 00:53:05.440
<v Speaker 2>the fifth, two thousand and two, they did find blood

910
00:53:05.559 --> 00:53:10.039
<v Speaker 2>and the identity of several women, and they declared the

911
00:53:10.079 --> 00:53:15.559
<v Speaker 2>whole fourteen acres a crime scene, and they basically took

912
00:53:15.599 --> 00:53:21.159
<v Speaker 2>it over and they dug up the entire farm. They demolished,

913
00:53:21.480 --> 00:53:25.639
<v Speaker 2>they swabbed, every surface on the property, and they dug

914
00:53:25.760 --> 00:53:29.679
<v Speaker 2>up every square foot of the property down to undisturbed soil.

915
00:53:30.400 --> 00:53:35.360
<v Speaker 2>They hired one hundred and four students, forensic anthropology students,

916
00:53:35.440 --> 00:53:37.880
<v Speaker 2>and it was run by Tracy Rogers, the woman who

917
00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:40.599
<v Speaker 2>had looked at that skull, the mission skull all those

918
00:53:40.679 --> 00:53:44.599
<v Speaker 2>years before in nineteen ninety five, and she is an

919
00:53:44.599 --> 00:53:47.480
<v Speaker 2>expert at knowing the difference between human bone and animal bone,

920
00:53:47.519 --> 00:53:53.079
<v Speaker 2>because don't forget it was a farm. They found aside

921
00:53:53.119 --> 00:53:57.440
<v Speaker 2>from the freezer, bags of human flesh, ground human flesh

922
00:53:57.920 --> 00:54:02.000
<v Speaker 2>that he kept in his freezer, d from skulls and

923
00:54:03.760 --> 00:54:08.559
<v Speaker 2>feet and hands that he kept in buckets in his freezer,

924
00:54:08.639 --> 00:54:15.079
<v Speaker 2>and just sitting around on his in his garage they found.

925
00:54:15.280 --> 00:54:20.719
<v Speaker 2>After that, they found blood and enough DNA to identify

926
00:54:21.679 --> 00:54:26.559
<v Speaker 2>I think the number was about twenty seven women initially,

927
00:54:26.679 --> 00:54:28.639
<v Speaker 2>and then I think they found the DNA of about

928
00:54:28.639 --> 00:54:34.280
<v Speaker 2>another six women. But when it came to prosecuting him

929
00:54:34.480 --> 00:54:41.679
<v Speaker 2>on these cases, they police decided, the crown attorneys decided

930
00:54:41.760 --> 00:54:48.239
<v Speaker 2>that this actually again it was the judge. The Crown

931
00:54:48.320 --> 00:54:51.119
<v Speaker 2>wanted to prosecute him, what you'd call the district attorney

932
00:54:51.599 --> 00:54:54.360
<v Speaker 2>wanted to prosecute him on all these cases. They didn't

933
00:54:54.400 --> 00:54:57.320
<v Speaker 2>care how many it was. And the preliminary hearing heard

934
00:54:57.360 --> 00:55:01.800
<v Speaker 2>evidence on twenty seven cases, but the trial judge said

935
00:55:01.840 --> 00:55:04.639
<v Speaker 2>this is too much for any jury, and he decided

936
00:55:04.679 --> 00:55:09.159
<v Speaker 2>to cut the counts down to six. So he said

937
00:55:09.159 --> 00:55:13.159
<v Speaker 2>there would be another trial on the twenty. Now, why

938
00:55:13.320 --> 00:55:17.480
<v Speaker 2>wasn't there twenty seven? Well, because he decided to dismiss

939
00:55:17.559 --> 00:55:20.000
<v Speaker 2>the count. To quash the count on Jane Doe, the

940
00:55:20.079 --> 00:55:22.599
<v Speaker 2>one who said was found in the mission flew and

941
00:55:23.000 --> 00:55:26.039
<v Speaker 2>whose seatan and shin bungs were found on the farm,

942
00:55:26.760 --> 00:55:29.239
<v Speaker 2>he said, we don't know who she is, and I

943
00:55:29.320 --> 00:55:31.280
<v Speaker 2>don't know why he quashed the count. He quashed that

944
00:55:31.400 --> 00:55:34.239
<v Speaker 2>count sore down to twenty six. Then he said we'll

945
00:55:34.280 --> 00:55:37.119
<v Speaker 2>do the twenty the other twenty count in another trial.

946
00:55:37.920 --> 00:55:41.840
<v Speaker 2>A jury could only take six, and there was an

947
00:55:41.920 --> 00:55:45.320
<v Speaker 2>uproar over that, but he was the boss, and that's

948
00:55:45.360 --> 00:55:48.480
<v Speaker 2>what happened. They tried on six picked them. When he

949
00:55:48.599 --> 00:55:53.159
<v Speaker 2>was interrogated by the police, he finally admitted to killing

950
00:55:53.440 --> 00:55:58.199
<v Speaker 2>forty nine women. He said he killed forty nine and

951
00:55:58.280 --> 00:56:00.280
<v Speaker 2>that was to an undercover cop in himself.

952
00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:04.599
<v Speaker 6>And didn't and what was his demeanor at that time

953
00:56:04.679 --> 00:56:08.000
<v Speaker 6>when he said to forty nine was that he was

954
00:56:08.519 --> 00:56:09.039
<v Speaker 6>to himself.

955
00:56:09.440 --> 00:56:11.400
<v Speaker 2>He was bragging because he didn't know the cop in

956
00:56:11.480 --> 00:56:13.480
<v Speaker 2>his cell. He didn't know the man in his cell

957
00:56:13.599 --> 00:56:16.880
<v Speaker 2>was a with an undercover cop. He was just talking.

958
00:56:16.920 --> 00:56:18.599
<v Speaker 2>They were He knew he was a killer. He was

959
00:56:18.639 --> 00:56:20.679
<v Speaker 2>then for you know, he was going to be shipped

960
00:56:20.760 --> 00:56:23.559
<v Speaker 2>back to Eastern Canada to stand trial on murders and

961
00:56:24.239 --> 00:56:26.719
<v Speaker 2>so he was. The undercover cop told him how many

962
00:56:26.800 --> 00:56:29.199
<v Speaker 2>people he'd killed, and Willie said, that's nothing. I'd killed

963
00:56:29.239 --> 00:56:32.639
<v Speaker 2>forty nine. And he knew that the Green River killer,

964
00:56:32.800 --> 00:56:35.119
<v Speaker 2>Gary Leon Ridgeway, had killed forty eight. He was quite

965
00:56:35.119 --> 00:56:37.960
<v Speaker 2>aware he was one over that he had done one

966
00:56:38.000 --> 00:56:41.039
<v Speaker 2>more than Gary Leon Ridgeway. But they were only ever

967
00:56:41.159 --> 00:56:47.960
<v Speaker 2>able to find the DNA of about, you know, thirty

968
00:56:48.079 --> 00:56:51.519
<v Speaker 2>three women. But they couldn't Even though they found the

969
00:56:51.599 --> 00:56:53.800
<v Speaker 2>DNA of some of these women, they didn't have enough

970
00:56:53.840 --> 00:56:56.920
<v Speaker 2>evidence to charge him with their murders. But they felt

971
00:56:56.960 --> 00:57:00.599
<v Speaker 2>they had enough evidence to charge him on twenty seven counts. Ultimately,

972
00:57:00.679 --> 00:57:03.320
<v Speaker 2>he only stood trial on six because the judge thought

973
00:57:03.719 --> 00:57:06.360
<v Speaker 2>Jerry couldn't take a trial that would have to hear

974
00:57:06.440 --> 00:57:10.719
<v Speaker 2>evidence on twenty seven and most people the Appeal Court

975
00:57:10.800 --> 00:57:13.360
<v Speaker 2>of British Columbia that heard this case later said that

976
00:57:13.440 --> 00:57:15.440
<v Speaker 2>the trial judge had made a mistake when he did that.

977
00:57:15.599 --> 00:57:18.960
<v Speaker 2>They said he should have tried on all of accounts right,

978
00:57:19.239 --> 00:57:21.880
<v Speaker 2>he should not have The appeal court said the trial

979
00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:25.280
<v Speaker 2>judge should not have thrown out Jane Doe and should

980
00:57:25.320 --> 00:57:29.280
<v Speaker 2>not have cut the numbers down to six, because you

981
00:57:29.400 --> 00:57:32.440
<v Speaker 2>certainly had You had a lot of families who will

982
00:57:32.519 --> 00:57:35.000
<v Speaker 2>never get over the fact that he did not go

983
00:57:35.119 --> 00:57:37.840
<v Speaker 2>on trial for the murder of their daughter, other wife,

984
00:57:37.920 --> 00:57:38.480
<v Speaker 2>or other sister.

985
00:57:40.039 --> 00:57:42.320
<v Speaker 6>What I thought was very interesting, and I see the

986
00:57:42.440 --> 00:57:46.880
<v Speaker 6>same phenomena with the you spoke of the Colonel Russell

987
00:57:47.079 --> 00:57:51.639
<v Speaker 6>Williams case as well, and we see unlike America, where

988
00:57:51.760 --> 00:57:54.960
<v Speaker 6>this audience primarily one we're playing this program too, is

989
00:57:55.000 --> 00:58:00.519
<v Speaker 6>that the Canadians do not want to know the truth,

990
00:58:01.079 --> 00:58:04.440
<v Speaker 6>whether it's about the legal system or it's about vulnerable

991
00:58:04.519 --> 00:58:07.880
<v Speaker 6>people being murdered. They just they are reviled by the

992
00:58:08.000 --> 00:58:11.880
<v Speaker 6>details and protests vehemently that they don't want to hear

993
00:58:11.920 --> 00:58:16.039
<v Speaker 6>any more details, where in America is a completely different animal,

994
00:58:16.079 --> 00:58:19.760
<v Speaker 6>where there is a lot of people that crave every

995
00:58:19.840 --> 00:58:23.679
<v Speaker 6>single graphic detail, not so much out of any morbid curiosity,

996
00:58:23.760 --> 00:58:26.719
<v Speaker 6>but just to understand some of these cases as a

997
00:58:26.760 --> 00:58:31.039
<v Speaker 6>real fascination. I wanted to ask you about the public's

998
00:58:31.079 --> 00:58:34.679
<v Speaker 6>reaction to the pict In case, because again it seemed

999
00:58:34.679 --> 00:58:38.079
<v Speaker 6>that Canada, like very much like the Bernardo and Malple case,

1000
00:58:38.119 --> 00:58:40.400
<v Speaker 6>but especially in the pict In case, there was a

1001
00:58:41.360 --> 00:58:45.519
<v Speaker 6>real adverse public reaction to details that were coming out,

1002
00:58:45.599 --> 00:58:51.960
<v Speaker 6>and the media media agencies responded by not publishing or

1003
00:58:52.039 --> 00:58:55.239
<v Speaker 6>reporting on some of those details. I wanted to know what,

1004
00:58:56.440 --> 00:58:58.559
<v Speaker 6>I want to know what you thought of this phenomena

1005
00:58:58.679 --> 00:58:59.400
<v Speaker 6>here in Canada.

1006
00:59:00.119 --> 00:59:02.800
<v Speaker 2>Well, I thought it was a disgrace. I felt that

1007
00:59:03.039 --> 00:59:06.079
<v Speaker 2>they you know, I felt that it devalued the women

1008
00:59:06.159 --> 00:59:10.039
<v Speaker 2>yet again, you know, and they weren't investigated because they're missing,

1009
00:59:10.320 --> 00:59:13.800
<v Speaker 2>their disappearances, were not investigated because they were addictive prostitutes

1010
00:59:14.159 --> 00:59:17.559
<v Speaker 2>from the downtown East Side, and because you know, they

1011
00:59:18.400 --> 00:59:22.199
<v Speaker 2>had terrible, terrible tragedies in their lives and they didn't

1012
00:59:22.320 --> 00:59:25.239
<v Speaker 2>have any power or any clout, but they did have

1013
00:59:25.320 --> 00:59:28.199
<v Speaker 2>people who loved them, many people who loved them. And

1014
00:59:29.559 --> 00:59:33.239
<v Speaker 2>so when the details started to emerge on this case,

1015
00:59:33.320 --> 00:59:35.840
<v Speaker 2>after mister Picton, mister West that used to have to

1016
00:59:35.920 --> 00:59:38.519
<v Speaker 2>call them mister Picton, after Willie Pickton went on trial.

1017
00:59:39.440 --> 00:59:43.519
<v Speaker 2>You know, people would complain to the newspapers, into the broadcasters,

1018
00:59:43.559 --> 00:59:46.639
<v Speaker 2>and so they've cut back. They buried the story in

1019
00:59:46.760 --> 00:59:50.000
<v Speaker 2>the back of the paper. They told their reporters not

1020
00:59:50.119 --> 00:59:52.840
<v Speaker 2>to report much detail, just keep it simple. We don't

1021
00:59:52.880 --> 00:59:55.360
<v Speaker 2>want to gross out our readers. You know, this was

1022
00:59:55.440 --> 00:59:57.960
<v Speaker 2>all body parts. This is bags and freezers. This you know,

1023
00:59:58.360 --> 01:00:00.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm sort of laughing. Jane Rule has said she won't

1024
01:00:00.480 --> 01:00:05.039
<v Speaker 2>write about anything that has to do with freether. So

1025
01:00:05.199 --> 01:00:09.079
<v Speaker 2>I think even in America, Jade Rule won't write about

1026
01:00:09.280 --> 01:00:14.880
<v Speaker 2>body parts contriugers. But it was, Yes, the trial was underplayed,

1027
01:00:15.599 --> 01:00:18.679
<v Speaker 2>and you know, all the details were underplayed, and I

1028
01:00:18.800 --> 01:00:22.119
<v Speaker 2>thought it devalued them one more time because it wasn't

1029
01:00:22.480 --> 01:00:26.360
<v Speaker 2>their stories were not being told. And so my decision

1030
01:00:26.400 --> 01:00:27.880
<v Speaker 2>when I wrote my book was I was going to

1031
01:00:27.920 --> 01:00:30.280
<v Speaker 2>write about every single one of the women on the

1032
01:00:30.320 --> 01:00:33.280
<v Speaker 2>official list. I was going to say who she was,

1033
01:00:33.400 --> 01:00:35.280
<v Speaker 2>what happened, you know, how she grew up, how she

1034
01:00:35.400 --> 01:00:39.519
<v Speaker 2>got into this life of prostitution and addiction. And I

1035
01:00:39.920 --> 01:00:42.599
<v Speaker 2>talked to many of the families as many as I

1036
01:00:42.639 --> 01:00:44.559
<v Speaker 2>could reach, and I met many of them at the

1037
01:00:44.639 --> 01:00:46.920
<v Speaker 2>trial and met many of I traveled across the country,

1038
01:00:47.079 --> 01:00:50.079
<v Speaker 2>talked to them, got to know them over the years,

1039
01:00:50.199 --> 01:00:53.440
<v Speaker 2>and they told me the stories of these women, and

1040
01:00:54.119 --> 01:00:58.199
<v Speaker 2>I decided that there would be one place where their

1041
01:00:58.239 --> 01:01:02.199
<v Speaker 2>stories would be told, and well we wouldn't turn away

1042
01:01:02.239 --> 01:01:05.880
<v Speaker 2>back from what happened to them. And so that's one

1043
01:01:05.880 --> 01:01:08.280
<v Speaker 2>of the goals I had in writing this book. But

1044
01:01:09.000 --> 01:01:11.880
<v Speaker 2>you're quite right now. The Williams story is different in

1045
01:01:11.960 --> 01:01:15.920
<v Speaker 2>a way. All the details have been broadcast in endless

1046
01:01:17.840 --> 01:01:20.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, loops on television and the papers and so

1047
01:01:20.519 --> 01:01:22.639
<v Speaker 2>on over the last four or five days, but this

1048
01:01:22.760 --> 01:01:24.880
<v Speaker 2>has been condensed into four or five days. He pled

1049
01:01:24.960 --> 01:01:30.199
<v Speaker 2>guilty immediately, and there was no fooling around on this one.

1050
01:01:30.239 --> 01:01:34.280
<v Speaker 2>It happened very quickly. Where the Picton was arrested in

1051
01:01:34.320 --> 01:01:36.400
<v Speaker 2>two thousand and two and he didn't go on trial

1052
01:01:36.559 --> 01:01:38.000
<v Speaker 2>until two thousand and seven.

1053
01:01:39.280 --> 01:01:41.559
<v Speaker 6>But it seems like the pict In case where I

1054
01:01:41.679 --> 01:01:46.079
<v Speaker 6>found it very I found it disturbing and surprising that

1055
01:01:46.480 --> 01:01:50.760
<v Speaker 6>it wasn't really well attended the trial apparently no considering.

1056
01:01:51.000 --> 01:01:54.239
<v Speaker 6>And then with the Williams case, it seems like, again

1057
01:01:54.559 --> 01:01:59.039
<v Speaker 6>if the criminal's high profile and the victims are high profile,

1058
01:01:59.119 --> 01:02:02.159
<v Speaker 6>then we can get some reporting on it. But if

1059
01:02:02.199 --> 01:02:09.159
<v Speaker 6>it's prostitutes, or gay alcoholics, or people of lesser stature.

1060
01:02:09.440 --> 01:02:13.480
<v Speaker 6>It seems, you know, it seems bizarre to me that

1061
01:02:13.599 --> 01:02:16.519
<v Speaker 6>there's this much attention for this and all these details,

1062
01:02:16.599 --> 01:02:20.880
<v Speaker 6>where again the pict In case being ignored because there's

1063
01:02:20.920 --> 01:02:23.400
<v Speaker 6>not much analysis from what we're going to learn from

1064
01:02:23.440 --> 01:02:26.360
<v Speaker 6>the pict In case. And I want to ask you too,

1065
01:02:26.400 --> 01:02:29.000
<v Speaker 6>what you thought, what you thought about the inquiry. Now

1066
01:02:29.039 --> 01:02:31.920
<v Speaker 6>we're going to have probably long and drawn out and

1067
01:02:32.000 --> 01:02:35.719
<v Speaker 6>expensive inquiry, and what can they possibly learn that isn't

1068
01:02:35.840 --> 01:02:37.079
<v Speaker 6>well illustrated in your book.

1069
01:02:38.639 --> 01:02:41.320
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I mean, it's very interesting. I was

1070
01:02:41.360 --> 01:02:44.880
<v Speaker 2>in Vancouver last week and the man who's in charge

1071
01:02:44.880 --> 01:02:50.079
<v Speaker 2>of the public inquiry is a very highly respected politician

1072
01:02:50.199 --> 01:02:54.199
<v Speaker 2>and former judge, but he's unfortunately, he was the Attorney

1073
01:02:54.280 --> 01:02:57.679
<v Speaker 2>general of the province who decided, who said he didn't

1074
01:02:57.719 --> 01:02:59.480
<v Speaker 2>believe it would be in the public interest to go

1075
01:02:59.519 --> 01:03:02.239
<v Speaker 2>ahead with the trial on the twenty. So you have

1076
01:03:02.719 --> 01:03:06.039
<v Speaker 2>the families who have just thrown up their hands. They say,

1077
01:03:06.079 --> 01:03:08.679
<v Speaker 2>we don't believe in this public and great, we don't

1078
01:03:08.719 --> 01:03:11.960
<v Speaker 2>think this is a sham. This is the man who

1079
01:03:12.039 --> 01:03:16.280
<v Speaker 2>said that it wasn't worth going ahead with trying him

1080
01:03:16.360 --> 01:03:18.639
<v Speaker 2>on the twenty and that was our daughter was one

1081
01:03:18.679 --> 01:03:21.679
<v Speaker 2>of the twenty. So you know, he's been undermined by

1082
01:03:21.760 --> 01:03:25.079
<v Speaker 2>that right from the beginning. So it was an unfortunate choice.

1083
01:03:25.760 --> 01:03:27.800
<v Speaker 2>And I don't know what will happen, but you're quite right.

1084
01:03:27.880 --> 01:03:30.440
<v Speaker 2>Rufsell Williams was a colonel of the Canadian notary of

1085
01:03:30.559 --> 01:03:35.360
<v Speaker 2>the Canadian Air Force. He killed two beautiful women. One

1086
01:03:35.480 --> 01:03:41.159
<v Speaker 2>was in the military as well. Lovely women, good families,

1087
01:03:41.519 --> 01:03:48.280
<v Speaker 2>nice lives, pretty not drug addicts, not prostitutes, and every

1088
01:03:48.320 --> 01:03:52.920
<v Speaker 2>single details put out there. It's a very odd situation.

1089
01:03:53.199 --> 01:03:58.320
<v Speaker 2>But you know, I think you've I think you've said

1090
01:03:58.320 --> 01:04:02.679
<v Speaker 2>it very well yourself, right. Uh, it's it's you can't

1091
01:04:02.719 --> 01:04:06.519
<v Speaker 2>get enough of it when these women are gorgeous and

1092
01:04:08.159 --> 01:04:14.320
<v Speaker 2>and successful, when they're prostitutes. I care, and a lot

1093
01:04:14.400 --> 01:04:16.880
<v Speaker 2>of people care, and a lot of Canadians care, and

1094
01:04:17.000 --> 01:04:20.679
<v Speaker 2>their families care. But you certainly had a big problem

1095
01:04:20.719 --> 01:04:22.440
<v Speaker 2>with the police, and we had a big problem with

1096
01:04:23.000 --> 01:04:25.880
<v Speaker 2>broadcasters and publishers who said public doesn't money hear this.

1097
01:04:27.039 --> 01:04:29.960
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, I think the media is wagging the dog and

1098
01:04:30.039 --> 01:04:33.119
<v Speaker 6>I think they're in a completely wrong direction. I think

1099
01:04:33.199 --> 01:04:38.760
<v Speaker 6>that they do not side enough with the prosecution, especially

1100
01:04:38.840 --> 01:04:42.400
<v Speaker 6>in clear cut cases like this and and also involve

1101
01:04:42.480 --> 01:04:45.280
<v Speaker 6>the public, which the public has a lot of the

1102
01:04:45.320 --> 01:04:48.400
<v Speaker 6>public has a sympathy for the victims. I think the

1103
01:04:48.559 --> 01:04:54.920
<v Speaker 6>media is is misguided or misinformed or misplaced loyalties to

1104
01:04:55.239 --> 01:04:58.440
<v Speaker 6>I'm not sure who, but I think that you've done

1105
01:04:58.440 --> 01:05:02.000
<v Speaker 6>a great service by providing all of the information. Is very,

1106
01:05:02.119 --> 01:05:06.280
<v Speaker 6>very comprehensive. It's a great, great read's. I mean, it's

1107
01:05:07.599 --> 01:05:11.679
<v Speaker 6>the complete, definitive story about this and every aspect of

1108
01:05:11.800 --> 01:05:14.920
<v Speaker 6>this completely fascinating story. And it is a tribute to

1109
01:05:14.960 --> 01:05:17.679
<v Speaker 6>the victims because you do find out who these people are.

1110
01:05:17.840 --> 01:05:21.599
<v Speaker 6>You do find out about the families and the incredible

1111
01:05:21.760 --> 01:05:26.239
<v Speaker 6>people that were brave enough to come forward despite we

1112
01:05:26.400 --> 01:05:29.519
<v Speaker 6>know about the system. It's a thankless job to come

1113
01:05:29.559 --> 01:05:33.960
<v Speaker 6>and be a witness at a trial and jeer across examination.

1114
01:05:34.119 --> 01:05:37.679
<v Speaker 6>But you've captured every single exciting and fascinating moment of

1115
01:05:37.760 --> 01:05:41.760
<v Speaker 6>this case. And it's great to have you on the

1116
01:05:41.800 --> 01:05:45.320
<v Speaker 6>program talking about this incredible book. So I want to

1117
01:05:45.320 --> 01:05:47.599
<v Speaker 6>thank you very much Stevie for coming on the program

1118
01:05:47.719 --> 01:05:50.840
<v Speaker 6>and sharing your incredible book on the farm with our

1119
01:05:50.880 --> 01:05:52.920
<v Speaker 6>audience and myself. I want to thank you very much.

1120
01:05:53.840 --> 01:05:55.960
<v Speaker 2>Dan. It's been a great pleasure for me, and I

1121
01:05:56.159 --> 01:05:57.760
<v Speaker 2>very much appreciate your interest in it.

1122
01:05:58.760 --> 01:06:00.719
<v Speaker 6>Well, Thank you very much, and you have a good

1123
01:06:00.760 --> 01:06:05.679
<v Speaker 6>evening studie you too. Thank you very much, Bye bye bye.

1124
01:06:06.400 --> 01:06:08.719
<v Speaker 6>You've been listening to the program True Murder, the most

1125
01:06:08.760 --> 01:06:12.639
<v Speaker 6>shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that

1126
01:06:12.719 --> 01:06:15.760
<v Speaker 6>have written about them, with your host Dan Zupanski. Have

1127
01:06:15.920 --> 01:06:17.719
<v Speaker 6>yourself a good evening, Good night,