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It's because of you that I can put out the

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amount of material that I do. I can do what

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doing together on condinal philosophy, it's all because of you.

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Everything's there. Want to welcome everyone back to the Peking

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Yona show. Thomas is back and we are continuing the

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series on the radical Traditionalist school. How are you, Thomas, I.

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Speaker 3: Know very well.

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Speaker 2: I think today I'll wrap up this sort of like

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subtropical treatment of you know, the the the fastest internationals

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I think of it, and the intellectual cadre that you know,

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constituted the the radical Traditionalists sort of vanguard in the

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twentieth century.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: To be clear, I'm going to primarily talk about Marcia

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Eliotti today, but like a lot of people on social

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media and other platforms and stuff, they've been asking about

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like Renee Gillon, who was something of a mysterious figure.

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I mean, for all kinds of reasons. I think he

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curated that image. But he uh and he died I

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think in nineteen fifty. But you know, Carl Schmidt, as

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I mentioned, Carl Schmidt had an active correspondence with Barcilla Eliatti,

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with Julius Evil Up, with Ernst Junger, and you know,

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we don't think of Carl Schmidt as being insinuated into

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this milieu, but he was, you know, and that goes

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to show you again there was a true cadre of

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intellectuals and a true internationalism to to Fishism and related movements.

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But Carl Schmidt said that he considered Rene Gillon to

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be the most like compelling, living intellectual, you know. And uh,

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Guillon's conversion to his Lamb, I mean that was a

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very French thing of him to do. He was very

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much an Orientalist, you know, like a lot of like

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a lot of Westerners were and are, and particularly a

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certain a certain type of adventurous soul. And uh, you know,

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there's a certain ecumenicalism to the traditionalist school, like I indicated.

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But also you've got to understand the context, particularly in

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the first half of the twentieth century. This was well

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before the Islamic Awakening in nineteen seventy nine, but Islam

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seemed far more of a living faith and way of

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life than you know, it is the case on the

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ground in Christendom outside of places like Romania. And we'll

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get into that, you know, so and that that's the

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way to kind of understand Gione. And I mean he

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lived among the Arabs and basically became one culturally, you know,

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he went native, as it were. But beyond that, his

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attraction to that theological system owes to what I just said.

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I you know, the degree to which this kind of

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scientific or scientism secular scientism was the dominant conceptual paradigm

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that really can't be overstated.

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Speaker 3: You know. It was just like a foregone conclusion. You know.

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Speaker 2: That's why it was so interesting how the the the

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final phase of the Cold War shook out, you know,

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and just uh across cultural frontiers, you know. I the

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martyrdom of Bobby Sands was tremendously important. And and the

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Catholic revival, you know, that was so instrumental in the

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resistance behind the Wall and poland you know that that

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was an aspect of this zegeist shift, you know, and

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a lot of this stuff is coming to like full

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realization today.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's a there's a theological subtext to.

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Speaker 2: Discourse right now, and and just the way you know,

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an instant bob psychological phenomena and all kinds of other things,

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and this is fascinating, and uh, you know, these these

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these are very exciting times right now. That's one of

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the reasons I disdain it when when when people like

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like they live in a boring century or something. I mean,

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there's always compelling things like like in any century you

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live in, if you know, you if your conceptual horizon

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is inadequately wide temporal sample.

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Speaker 3: You know, but you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: But interestingly too, you know, Marcia Eliatti was at University

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of Chicago and at the Amentsy of Chicago Library. Now

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Evila's letters letters to Eliati are you can you can

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exst them there. They're in the Mercia Eliotti papers, which

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is great. Universities remain a really good resource like that.

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Next time I'm in Portland, Oregon, I found found out

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lately that uh, the Earthy of Portland that's for h

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Keith Steinley, who was uh he he was instrumental in

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thean due for Historical Review in like very early eighties,

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and he uh h Keith Thompson became pretty close and

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uh Keith Steinley he died young. He he died of

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as interestingly, and apparently people didn't know that he was gay,

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but apparently he was. I mean, it's I'm not speaking

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on that one way or the other. But when he died, uh,

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he was aggregating all these papers and taking testimony from

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you know, a bunch of people because he intended to

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write a biography of Francis Yacki and uh, Kevin Coogan,

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I believe h. Key Thompson and passed on a lot

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of the material at Steinley had aggregated to Kevin Coogan,

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who wrote a Obviously the seminole biography of Yacky is.

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Speaker 3: Is the one.

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Speaker 2: Uh yeah yeah thanks at a senior moment is the

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Kerry Bolton treatment.

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Speaker 3: But the.

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Speaker 2: Book by Kevin Coogan is a great book. And like

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the footnotes and endnotes alone are like a treasure trove

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of data.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: And it's and and and H. Thompson, else de Witt.

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You know a lot of other people who were friends

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of Francis Yacky as well as George solzter Virick, you know,

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another guy's in that re LOEU. They I mean they

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participated in it because they they came to trust Coogan.

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So it's not people shouldn't be put off by the

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fact that Coogan's uh, you know, uh, this kind of

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neo Marxist type of guy. But be that as it may.

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The critical thing to understand in terms of UH, in

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terms of practice, how this fascist international let I insist

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was extant as like an animating force and uh an

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intellectual tendency, you know, and in the Inner War years,

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and that really as I think I as I think

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we discussed the other day, was a really catalyzing influence,

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especially after the martyrdom of Ion Mota and thesile Ma.

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Speaker 3: Mean, but.

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Speaker 2: You know Evilah and his he can't he met Mercia

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Eliotti for the first time when he traveled to uh

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Romania and Uh Evil wanted to meet Kaduri. And in

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his estimation as well as in the estimation at Carl Schmidt,

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I don't think Younger directly commented on the situation, the

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internal situation in.

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Speaker 3: Romania, but yeah, eve Love viewed it as a.

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Speaker 2: He viewed it as a kind of pure expression of

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traditionalists capital t traditionalist praxis, you know. And he viewed

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it as a new kind of revolution, you know, and

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something unique unto itself. And he traveled the Romania to

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meet Kodrianu and that's when he first came across Eliati,

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you know. And at that time Eliatti was was was

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serving in the in the Iron Guard, and Kadrian who

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was intellectual mentor and who he kind of considered to

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be as spiritual forebear was email Siron Ciron. I'm probably

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puncturing that pronunciation. Siron wrote a book called the transformation

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of Romania in nineteen thirty six. It was basically a manifesto, uh,

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you know, calling for palagenesis and uh ethnocultural terms you know,

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and in national renewal, something that uh Evila commented on

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how what he wanted to engage with Eliati and these

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young these then young guys who were kind of filling

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out the ranks of uh the Iron Guard. There's a

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characteristic aspect of the Iron Guard movements, you know. And

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they constructed their their primary organizational modality was what they

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referred to as nests, you know. And this wasn't just

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a way of you know, breaking down paramilitary organization for

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political warfare and direct action. They represented a an emphasis

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and on a common or communitarian formal life that was

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primarily centered around ethical and religious sensibilities and criteria, you know,

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and that was something there wasn't really a counterpart to

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that in uh the German essay or the and the

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fascist black Shirts.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: One of the things coche Rian who said Evila is

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that quote prayer as a decisive element of victory.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: It was a kind of pure crusader spirit transposed to

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the modern era.

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Speaker 3: Like and uh.

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Speaker 2: The kind of the modern interpretation of jihad and militant Islam.

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This is really kind of the Christian counterpart to that, okay,

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and in a very real sense. And this is important

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because until fairly recently there wasn't a lot of serious

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scholarship other other than people like Ernston Noblety, who you know,

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we're in our somebody soteric in their work product, you know,

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like Noelty was a political philosopher, you know, he wasn't

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an analytic historian. But there's not there was not for

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many decades the serious scholarship of a fascist type movements,

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you know, and what their characteristics were.

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Speaker 3: And even.

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Speaker 2: Those people in mainstream Agadee who set out to be

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reasonably objective, the kind of metrics they were applying and

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their methodology we were wrong, you know. And the way

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they interpreted these variables were wrong. And the context wasn't

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something that they had a meaningful grasp of, you know.

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And because so the Iron Guar weren't reactionaries that they

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didn't want to just kind of turn the clock back to,

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you know, inculcate people like Romanians and medieval sensibilities or something.

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Their entire practice was to bring about something that hadn't

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been seen before. And to be clear, Seron, he he

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had certain progressive aspects to his worldview, Like you said that,

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you know, the relative democratization of political life was something

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that had to happen because otherwise ontological shock would have

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just led to revolution and we'd be in the situation

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the Soviet Union is, which is of course correct. Beyond that,

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one of the things that ties Younger to a lot

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of these movements that were you know, right word of

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his own perspective and something that's set Younger apart from

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his revolutionary conservative ideological counterparts in a lot of ways.

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You know, the concept of the anarch is like a

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man who's you know, this kind of self contained agents,

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who's neither master nor slave, you know, and who can't

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be categorized according to traditional sociological schema in terms of

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how he fits into you know, a class paradigm and modernity.

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You know, that's very much the kind of historical personality

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that the Iron Guard and that Seeron was trying to cultivate.

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And this is important. Okay, there is a new fascist

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man and if I mean I'm being I'm in voting

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kind of a colloquial phraseology. But revolutionary rightist movements had

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as much of a concept of a new Man as

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did their enemies, you know, uh in in the Marcist Leninists,

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because that's what history called for.

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Speaker 3: And also, you know, the entire.

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Speaker 2: Catalyst for this kind of revolutionary activity was ontological, you know,

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historical situatedness and the factors that constitute that historical situatedness.

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This is what you know, defines the culture in an

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of an era. You can't just say like, I'm going

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to consciously reject that and you know, ascribe to something

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else that I find preferable. You know, that's a kind

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of retreat into fantasy or you know, the relegation of

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oneself irrelevancy by way of subcultural insolrity.

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Speaker 3: You know. So this is important because.

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Speaker 2: Romania's kind of overlooked anyway, traditionally in analyses of the war,

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which in military terms, you know, Romania was the German

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reights most important ali and you know they they dedicated

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the most forces.

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Speaker 3: To the.

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Speaker 2: Crusade against the Soviets, and Antonescu and Hitler were actually

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quite close. But beyond that, you know, Romania, I think

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it's ill understood as a culture because it's it's the

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direct descendant like literally of both Rome and Byzantium. I

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think the Balkans are kind of ill understood anyway. During

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the Cold War, Romania kind of staked out its own path,

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which was which seemed very asiatic and kind of alien.

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There's this kind of morbid fascination with the Cusescu regime,

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and it's it's excesses and things in America and in Europe,

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Western Europe. But the you know, the the internal situation

239
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there was very dynamic and outsized, and its impact, you know,

240
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so I think that that kind of insolarity caused people

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to kind of ignore it as a historical quantity.

242
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Speaker 3: But also.

243
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Speaker 2: One of the the people remain prisoners of the kind

244
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of Cold War conceptual paradigm and something that's neither a

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merely reactionary protest against liberal modernity or something that's not,

246
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you know, actively revolutionary in terms of its ambition to

247
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socially engineered traditional modalities out of existence. If there's a

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political tendency that's neither of those things, you know, mainstream

249
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scholarship doesn't know how to deal with it. And furthermore, too,

250
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like the big imperative of the traditionalist school. And one

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of the reasons why the revolutionary sensibilities the Iron Guard

252
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represents such a pure iteration of traditionalist practice is that

253
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there's an integralism and a symbolic psychological aspect of this

254
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that sets it apart from what we think of as

255
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politics in the late modern sense. You know, people like

256
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Quadrianuho and people like Iliati, they were talking about entire

257
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kind of modes of life and ethics. They weren't talking

258
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about politics. Is this kind of discrete mode of activity

259
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that's separate from all other cultural activity, you know, or

260
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something that's or something that's ay uh uh, that has

261
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psychological aspects onto itself that don't touch in concern other

262
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uh other uh you know, identitarian aspects of the human

263
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being in you know, in in in any meaningful way.

264
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That's the wrong way to look at it, because all

265
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these things are viewed as one, you know, the only

266
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legitimate politics as the politics that derives from Christian ethics,

267
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and you know, orthodox Christian ethics in the case of

268
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Romania and uh orthodoxy is rather congregational, you know, so

269
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the the folk community or like you know, the Romanian

270
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race and it's it's heritage it's it's it's shared memory,

271
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you know, both epigenetic as well as you know, the

272
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the symbolic psychological aspects that individuals share in common, and

273
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the culture relating to ritual and right and religious practice

274
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and things. You know, all these things are what makes

275
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conreational life possible, which in turn allows people to you know,

276
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partake of the grace of the Living God through the Christ.

277
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You know, and this is the metric of all of

278
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all activity as a Romanian patriot, but also like as

279
00:23:56,079 --> 00:24:01,519
a man, as an Orthodox Christian and everything else. You know,

280
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,519
churches and something you do on Sundays so that you know,

281
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you're you have something to do, or for the sake

282
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of appearances, or because you're worried about you know, your

283
00:24:13,519 --> 00:24:16,759
kids not getting an adequate moral education. It's a totally

284
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different perspective than you know, people in kind of like

285
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twentieth century late modern Anglophone cultures ahead of things. You know,

286
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,119
I'm speaking in terms of like the majoritary and sensibility.

287
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Obviously there were exceptions within those cultures and countries. But

288
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it's also you know, another aspect of the Iron Guard

289
00:24:52,759 --> 00:24:59,880
that was kind of overlooked or de emphasized and Elie.

290
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:05,480
He wrote about this, and the political writing that he

291
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did engage in after nineteen forty five is pretty sparse

292
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:23,319
for obvious reasons, but his correspondence with evill Uh he emphasizes, uh,

293
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:29,519
you know, the need for an intellectually rigorous vanguard. You know,

294
00:25:29,559 --> 00:25:34,480
an Eliati was like an urbane intellectual and most of

295
00:25:34,519 --> 00:25:39,279
these Iron Guard legionnaires they were they were university students

296
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,559
and some like working guys. But this was not This

297
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,400
wasn't some like peasant movement or something. It wasn't you know,

298
00:25:48,799 --> 00:25:52,559
comparable to say like the you know, Father Tiso's party

299
00:25:52,599 --> 00:25:54,240
and not being like punitive. And I'm not saying there's

300
00:25:54,240 --> 00:26:00,599
something like wrong with that kind of Agreerian peasant you know,

301
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:07,720
patriotic sensibility, but it's a very different thing if you're

302
00:26:07,759 --> 00:26:13,440
talking about basically like you know, Cadres and Christian Jahannes,

303
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:17,400
who you know, dedicate themselves to this kind of like

304
00:26:17,519 --> 00:26:22,000
monastic this like warrior monastic sort of like intellectually driven existence.

305
00:26:22,039 --> 00:26:24,400
It's it's very different, you know.

306
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 3: And.

307
00:26:31,799 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 2: You know, and key to uh, I think understanding why

308
00:26:41,319 --> 00:26:45,000
this was an important movement for all the reasons we've

309
00:26:45,039 --> 00:26:45,799
been discussing.

310
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 3: You know, it's when I.

311
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:52,839
Speaker 2: Talk about the martyrdom of of Ion Motza and Viscio Marine.

312
00:26:53,960 --> 00:27:01,000
This wasn't some expost facto sort of mythification. You know,

313
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:06,319
in the moments, all kinds of men went down in

314
00:27:06,559 --> 00:27:09,880
theater who were fighting for the nationalist cause and who

315
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,400
had a very romantic sort of back story about what

316
00:27:12,519 --> 00:27:20,160
brought them there. It was these pious orthodox Iron Guard legionnaires,

317
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,279
you know, who became the martyrs and you don't, I

318
00:27:23,319 --> 00:27:27,079
mean the Congreens decided he was a murder and who's

319
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:36,079
not okay? And this funerary train of the two murtyers,

320
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,799
you know, everywhere they went, they were saluted, you know,

321
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:46,400
by Philangis, you know, by black shirts, by national socialists,

322
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:50,319
you know, by Carlos, you know, in Belgium and France

323
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:57,400
and in Italy, in Austria. You know, there was this

324
00:27:58,839 --> 00:28:10,440
ecumenical kind of fascist reverence around the sacrifice and murdered

325
00:28:10,519 --> 00:28:15,880
him of these two Romanians, you know, who again represented

326
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,880
in a pure sense, the kind of Christian jihad. I

327
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:28,519
mean that speaks for itself, you know. And Eliotti, throughout

328
00:28:28,519 --> 00:28:40,039
his life, you know, the concept of sacred time and

329
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:46,079
how that situates people psychologically and historically and how that

330
00:28:46,119 --> 00:28:50,960
functions as you know, an essential aspect of worship. This

331
00:28:51,079 --> 00:28:57,119
is kind of one of the core concepts within his

332
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:03,440
political theology. But also like the catalyzing effect of sacrifice

333
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:09,440
and martyrdom, you know. And this was a huge, hugely

334
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,319
revered thing among the Iron Guard, you know, and they

335
00:29:12,319 --> 00:29:16,079
were talking about this years before any of them deployed

336
00:29:16,079 --> 00:29:20,559
the Spain. You know, they they were in touch with

337
00:29:20,599 --> 00:29:27,240
the zeitgeist in instinctive ways. You know that the National Socialists,

338
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:38,960
save you know, people like Hitler himself, just weren't just

339
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,519
weren't apprehending. And in the case of people like Hitler,

340
00:29:41,599 --> 00:29:46,920
you know, like like Lenin or Mussolini, you know, he

341
00:29:47,039 --> 00:29:51,799
understood the like historical imperatives at play, and you know,

342
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,039
like in an absolutely instinctive way, and he was like,

343
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,279
you know, in some ways he had like a savant

344
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:03,000
or genius for these things. But uh, we're talking on

345
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:09,960
something very different, you know. I think that's clear, and

346
00:30:10,039 --> 00:30:13,839
I don't a movement like the the Legionarian movement or

347
00:30:13,839 --> 00:30:18,079
like the Iron Guard. I that wouldn't have jumped off

348
00:30:18,119 --> 00:30:22,279
in Germany, it wouldn't have had a context. I can

349
00:30:22,319 --> 00:30:26,079
see something. I can see maybe a pious Catholic movement

350
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,680
emerged against Austria that was like openly fascist and that

351
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:39,759
and whose practice was stronglyted oriented towards martyrdom. But I

352
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:41,680
but even now, I think it's somewhat dubious.

353
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 3: You know.

354
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:51,279
Speaker 2: So this uh, any serious scholar the era and again

355
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:56,039
of these you know, of of of the of the movement,

356
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:02,000
it should account for this man. And that's changing. But

357
00:31:02,079 --> 00:31:08,720
like I said, even even among sympathetic scholars, I think

358
00:31:08,759 --> 00:31:12,960
I think there's something. I think there's something basically lacking

359
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:17,599
in their understanding, not just to the concrete particulars, but

360
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:28,519
of the kind of conceptual whole, you know. And I

361
00:31:28,559 --> 00:31:31,359
go as far as they two. I mean, Kadriano obviously

362
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:40,880
was in dialogue with the revolutionary proletarian movement, because I mean,

363
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:46,279
anybody so engaged in the political struggling in the interwar yors,

364
00:31:46,319 --> 00:31:49,920
I mean that that's literally what all discourse was in

365
00:31:50,039 --> 00:31:55,640
dialogue with. So I mean like that that itself situates

366
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:04,640
any partisan in a sort of modernist category, you know.

367
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:06,440
So it's kind of like neither hero or there. I mean,

368
00:32:07,319 --> 00:32:10,759
Quadriano and el Yati, they weren't like reactionaries anyway, but

369
00:32:11,799 --> 00:32:16,920
it it's kind of a meaningless criteria to was signed

370
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:23,200
as a characteristic, you know, when we're talking about people

371
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,480
who are engaged in like direct action against the communists

372
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:28,839
you know, in the nineteen thirties.

373
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:37,799
Speaker 3: That you know, and the u.

374
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:48,599
Speaker 2: Yaki some of the language that he lifts or like

375
00:32:50,039 --> 00:32:54,279
some of the concepts that he fleshes out, particularly in Imperium,

376
00:32:54,599 --> 00:32:59,480
like the first few chapters of the book, where he's

377
00:32:59,559 --> 00:33:03,039
kind of talk on like, you know, the new fascist man.

378
00:33:04,799 --> 00:33:11,480
He's talking about how the new Europe is going to

379
00:33:11,519 --> 00:33:19,079
require a new consensus, specifically one of living dangerously and sacrificially.

380
00:33:21,279 --> 00:33:31,160
And that's one hundred percent you know, the kind of

381
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:35,000
philosophical disposition of the Iron Guard. It's not a conventionally

382
00:33:35,039 --> 00:33:38,119
political concept, you know, and it's not a kind of

383
00:33:38,119 --> 00:33:43,400
superficial extremism. And it's also not a conventionally even among

384
00:33:44,759 --> 00:33:49,759
the more sanguinary and like war oriented modalities of Christianity.

385
00:33:51,039 --> 00:33:55,680
It's not really a Christian sensibility either, at least in

386
00:33:55,720 --> 00:34:01,480
the sense that is under discussion, you know, And that's

387
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:10,480
very much a modernist understanding, you know, of what constitutes

388
00:34:10,559 --> 00:34:19,639
you know, redemptive factors in worldly conduct, you know it

389
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:33,360
h And Carl Schmidt too, you know, he even in

390
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,280
Know most of the Earth where which is uh? I mean,

391
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,920
that's his magnum opus. But it's also probably his most

392
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:46,840
kind of meanstream scholarly work. But he's dealing with a

393
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:52,840
lot of conceptually theological things, okay. You know, and in

394
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:59,840
the nineteen fifties and sixties, obviously nobody on the right,

395
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:05,639
you know, even people who were pretty far right, unless

396
00:35:05,639 --> 00:35:11,880
they were openly dissenting elements or like underground national socialists

397
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:18,920
or something, you know, they weren't. They weren't openly trying

398
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:24,800
to drop parallels with themselves and the Fascist International. But

399
00:35:25,559 --> 00:35:31,199
there's concepts that just axiomatically endured within you know, right

400
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:35,639
wing thought in the in the European sense, you know,

401
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:45,880
and the concept of sacrifice if not murderedom and the

402
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:53,480
understanding of sacred ground, and what makes land appropriation legitimate

403
00:35:54,719 --> 00:36:01,239
is the sacramental skilling of blood. You know that that's

404
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:05,280
uh a Schmidtian concept that it was very much to.

405
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 3: This kind of political theology.

406
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,639
Speaker 2: You know, So this stuff had It's not like this

407
00:36:12,679 --> 00:36:17,519
stuff was totally dormant or these concepts were totally dormant

408
00:36:17,599 --> 00:36:20,559
until you know, a couple of decades after the Cold War,

409
00:36:20,639 --> 00:36:23,440
and now like you know, the kind of subcultural tendencies

410
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,920
that we represent, like rediscovered this stuff. It was like

411
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:33,480
insinuated all throughout everything subsequent to it, you know, So

412
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:41,719
this can't be dismissed as some strange artifact of a

413
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,400
of bontological shock, you know, and and kind of that

414
00:36:45,519 --> 00:36:49,599
tragedy of the commons amidst uh, you know, the European

415
00:36:49,639 --> 00:36:52,599
Civil War and and and all these horrible events that

416
00:36:53,519 --> 00:36:54,159
you know led to.

417
00:36:55,679 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 3: You know, led to.

418
00:36:56,679 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 2: Communism and resistance to it and things. You know, there's

419
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:06,239
an independent significance here, and there's an enduring significance that

420
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:14,159
is uh, yeah, is must be accounted for in its

421
00:37:14,199 --> 00:37:27,920
own right, you know, in the younger and even uh,

422
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,239
even in all quite in the Western front. I'm not

423
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:37,639
a fan of Eric Maria Rimmarkey. I think he's I

424
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,679
think he was a very I think it was a

425
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:48,119
very egoistic person who dressed up his personal grievances as

426
00:37:48,159 --> 00:37:52,960
a sum in his own moral powerties, as a as

427
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:58,480
some sort of principal stand against you know, the the

428
00:37:58,559 --> 00:38:05,400
heartless Prussian established or whatever, but the concept of the

429
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:13,599
First World War constituting a mass sacrifice and thus moving

430
00:38:13,639 --> 00:38:22,679
forward having expiated the sins of the German nation and race,

431
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:31,079
you know, and thus the punitive sanctions they were availed

432
00:38:31,119 --> 00:38:36,480
to deliberately in terms of the political structure of Versailles.

433
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:40,000
That that is a subtext to.

434
00:38:42,079 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 3: You know, all Vymart discourse.

435
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:51,519
Speaker 2: You know, even the KPD kind of acknowledged that in

436
00:38:51,559 --> 00:39:05,039
their own strange and toleric way, you know. And also

437
00:39:05,119 --> 00:39:11,960
this understanding of the sacrificial, the sacrificial victim status actual

438
00:39:12,039 --> 00:39:18,239
or potential of the entirety of the nation or as

439
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:23,719
the kind of international sensibility set in and all trappings

440
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:29,519
of nationalism fell by the wayside after the Great War,

441
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:32,880
you know, speaking not in terms of the nation, but

442
00:39:33,039 --> 00:39:36,840
you know, the the race written large, or you know,

443
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:42,199
the West or European civilization. This understanding of every man,

444
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:49,719
woman and child therein potentially being availed a sacrificial status.

445
00:39:51,079 --> 00:39:59,800
That also made certain things possible that wouldn't have been before,

446
00:40:01,679 --> 00:40:06,039
you know, in terms of uh, in terms of ethics

447
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:13,239
and what's becomes what was previously unthinkable, because not just

448
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,760
something that can be entertained in the abstract but can

449
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:24,039
be implemented for the sake of civilizational survival. You know,

450
00:40:24,199 --> 00:40:29,480
obviously there's like the immediate threat of you know, being

451
00:40:29,519 --> 00:40:34,199
subject to extermination, and that was no the's on point.

452
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,800
Speaker 3: But if people want to know.

453
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:43,519
Speaker 2: How the uh inner struggle relating to the ethics of

454
00:40:44,039 --> 00:40:53,760
resisting such things by comparable and direct countermeasures became resolved,

455
00:40:53,960 --> 00:41:03,320
I would say that that's how, and that end of

456
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:10,920
itself as a sacrificial implication. But Kodrianu made the point

457
00:41:11,079 --> 00:41:20,039
that a legion there may condemn himself to hell for

458
00:41:20,119 --> 00:41:24,239
his commitment and for his actions in the service of

459
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:29,719
that commitment, but that's the ultimate offer of sacrifice. Because

460
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:37,360
you know, obviously the pious man, the holy warrior, the

461
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,800
man and the path of jihad, he always hopes that

462
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:46,400
God will let him come back and return to grace.

463
00:41:48,599 --> 00:41:53,679
But if the survival of his people, and if his

464
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:59,320
commitment to his comrades and even his commitment to God

465
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:05,480
call for him to do monstrous things that will damn

466
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:12,519
his soul for eternity, there is no sacrifice greater and

467
00:42:12,559 --> 00:42:18,360
no conceivable murderdom more severe, you know, than to literally

468
00:42:19,159 --> 00:42:25,199
willfully bear witness to one his own damnation. So that's

469
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:34,599
part of this ontology too, and I'm not just speculating here.

470
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:46,840
It's uh intrinsic to a lot of the rip. It's

471
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:52,519
intrinsic to a lot of the reflections I believe of

472
00:42:52,599 --> 00:42:57,639
people like Gearing, especially at Nermer, although he didn't characterize

473
00:42:57,639 --> 00:43:01,159
it that way because Gear was many things, and I

474
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:03,760
think he was a real hero like we talked about.

475
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:10,079
But Gary was not a pious man, and I don't

476
00:43:10,079 --> 00:43:12,280
think you spent a lot of time contemplating these kinds

477
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:18,840
of things. But it was intrinsic to the zeitgeist Eliotti two,

478
00:43:20,159 --> 00:43:27,239
and this is something Eliotti is probably it's probably probably is.

479
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:34,559
The most famous books were Shamanism, Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy,

480
00:43:34,599 --> 00:43:39,480
which is a great book, and The Sacred and the Profane.

481
00:43:42,519 --> 00:43:45,440
He wrote another book called the Myth of Eternal Return

482
00:43:46,559 --> 00:43:53,960
or eternal recurrence. That problematics because people associate eternal recurrence

483
00:43:54,000 --> 00:44:01,719
with the Nietzschean postulate, which, incidentally, and we'll get to

484
00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:06,039
this later in our series, eternal return in the incense

485
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:11,079
there's the equivalent of const categorical imperative. It's a fascinating concept.

486
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:15,400
It redefines ethics and moral action, and in terms of

487
00:44:15,679 --> 00:44:28,719
esthetical principles, it's just fascinating. But Eliot's meaning of that phrase.

488
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:31,039
Speaker 3: Was that.

489
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:40,199
Speaker 2: Ritual and spiritual practice in uh in the form of rights.

490
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:48,599
You know, it's uh, it's it's temporarily situated outside of

491
00:44:49,519 --> 00:44:56,639
ordinary human time, and UH it connects the past and

492
00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:00,719
the present and the future in a way that no

493
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,480
other human activity does. And that's part of its purpose,

494
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:11,880
you know. And obviously there's a the symbolic psychological aspects

495
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:20,639
that presumably trigger epigenetic memory and things. There's a aspects

496
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:28,960
of the shared cultural mindset that respond two aspects of

497
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:39,960
you know, uh, ritualized worship that are familiar even though

498
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:45,599
you know, people have never been taught these things, as

499
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:52,400
you know, and in the way that one is au availed,

500
00:45:53,039 --> 00:45:56,639
you know, simple steps in a process that they then emulate,

501
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:09,039
you know. But Eliotti's main one of his main contributions

502
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:14,760
was his methodology and the way that he approached discussion

503
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:20,800
of ah, you know, religious phenomenon, you know, in terms

504
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:28,039
of worship and UH and and existential aspects of it.

505
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:33,519
You know, he said that you've got to approach something

506
00:46:34,519 --> 00:46:36,320
if you take if you're looking at whether you're talking

507
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:38,760
about like a primitive tribe in Africa or whether you're

508
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:48,480
talking about some highly developed society like Japan, and you know, like, uh,

509
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:51,960
the shamanism that they practice, like with a Shinto priest.

510
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:58,599
You know, there's not like variables you can code to

511
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:01,480
try and flesh out this agnifican into this the human

512
00:47:01,559 --> 00:47:08,960
psychology or the cultural learning. It requires a kind of

513
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:16,480
instinctive ability to perceive the meaning of these things and

514
00:47:16,639 --> 00:47:22,239
symbolic psychological capacities. You know, it requires a certain empathy

515
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:27,440
that you know, allows one to see subjects through the

516
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:33,840
eyes of the other and such that these things can

517
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:40,599
be modeled in a more conventional analytics format. The variables

518
00:47:40,599 --> 00:47:50,760
we're talking about in something like shamanism or sacramental practice,

519
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:55,800
you've got to identify the aspects in common that allow

520
00:47:55,960 --> 00:48:00,880
for a proper categorical description. Now, what are the aspects

521
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:10,920
of shamanism? There are things, uh like actual projection, real

522
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,119
or perceived. I mean some people believe, not gonna think,

523
00:48:13,159 --> 00:48:17,199
some people don't. But the inner experience of it, of

524
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:21,480
that sort of ecstatic response, A lot of people attribute

525
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:24,760
it to, you know, a sort of spiritual soaring or elevation.

526
00:48:27,679 --> 00:48:44,320
You know, things uh that relate to people's pre rational

527
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:54,800
emotional responses to uh sacramental symbols across cultures. You know,

528
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:58,719
like you can't you can't code these things in a

529
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:03,519
way that reveals the essential meaning of them to the

530
00:49:03,599 --> 00:49:07,880
human being. You know, it's something that can only be

531
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:14,719
experienced and kind of anecdotally relayed. So Eliotti relied a

532
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:25,239
lot on direct testimony on subjective interpretation and in common

533
00:49:26,679 --> 00:49:32,280
psychological features of a symbolic nature that could be observed,

534
00:49:33,079 --> 00:49:38,039
you know. And obviously Mainsham make a deem claimed that

535
00:49:38,119 --> 00:49:46,199
well this is all conjecture and like reaction to romanticism

536
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:48,480
or you know, fascist apologia.

537
00:49:50,559 --> 00:49:53,199
Speaker 3: But Eliotti was right.

538
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:59,280
Speaker 2: Wolfgang Smith his methodology was a bit different and the

539
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:01,800
subject may or that he emphasized was a bit different,

540
00:50:04,519 --> 00:50:13,039
but he similarly eschewed uh conventional modeling when dealing with.

541
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:17,800
Speaker 3: This kind of uh.

542
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:27,039
Speaker 2: Experience like like religious phenomena as experience. Okay, this is

543
00:50:27,079 --> 00:50:32,039
what wolfgangs Smith called traditional data. You know, it is data,

544
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:38,239
make a mistake, but it can't be analyzed and interpreted

545
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:45,599
or properly situated within a wider analytical paradigm. According to

546
00:50:47,159 --> 00:50:55,960
conventional and quantitative research methods, you know, and it's it

547
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:57,760
goes yeah, it's not just you know, I know it

548
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:00,960
when I see it. It goes is beyond that there's

549
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:08,480
a real there's there's a real method here, although not

550
00:51:09,079 --> 00:51:11,880
again in the sense we think of it in something

551
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:18,559
like economics or you know, other types of social research,

552
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:27,159
you know. And the concept of course too, of the

553
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:32,039
return to sacred time. This is one of the things

554
00:51:32,079 --> 00:51:38,119
that grounds people in their own culture because it means that,

555
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:47,960
you know, there are aspects of the human psychology and

556
00:51:48,079 --> 00:51:51,000
the human inner life. You know, if you're a religious

557
00:51:51,039 --> 00:51:53,920
man or woman, you know, you interpret that as spiritual

558
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:59,639
life that are not historically contingent, you know. And that's

559
00:51:59,679 --> 00:52:04,440
one of the functions in terms of revolutionary praxis that

560
00:52:04,599 --> 00:52:07,800
prayer and ritual serve is that it literally takes us

561
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:12,840
out of you know, historical time and situates us in

562
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:19,400
sacred time, you know. And that's the key element of

563
00:52:19,519 --> 00:52:24,000
void is sacred and what is profane? And that dichotomy

564
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:30,000
is it just isn't just an essential aspect of Mercia

565
00:52:30,039 --> 00:52:35,159
Eliotti's thought, it was an essential aspect of email crans

566
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:39,639
a paradigm. It was an essential aspect of Coadrian, who's

567
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:49,280
understanding of the existential aspects of you know, the path

568
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:57,119
of the legionaire, you know. And also while removing us

569
00:52:57,639 --> 00:53:05,039
or the subject popular or congregation or cature from historical time,

570
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:09,239
at the same time, it does allow us to relate

571
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:24,440
to historical and primordial psychological settings, you know. So in

572
00:53:24,519 --> 00:53:28,159
these renewal ceremonies, they're they're on the one hand, they're timeless,

573
00:53:29,079 --> 00:53:35,039
but on the other hand, you know, they bring a

574
00:53:35,079 --> 00:53:41,800
historical phenomenon into not just living memory, but living experience,

575
00:53:44,079 --> 00:53:49,800
you know, and a participation of the individual and and

576
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:53,239
self contained capacity as well as a member of the

577
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:59,400
congregation and you know, the nation and the race. It

578
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:05,960
initiates him into a kind of mythical framework, you know,

579
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:14,320
such that these things aren't merely trivial abstractions or inaccessible,

580
00:54:16,599 --> 00:54:27,000
you know, arecane behavioral observances of the distant past. And

581
00:54:27,039 --> 00:54:33,840
that's essential as part of a cultural education as well

582
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:41,239
as communitarian bonding. Because one of the things about Sacramento

583
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:44,320
practices it's very intimate. It's not a kind of thing

584
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:53,360
you share with strangers, you know. The deliberate diminishing and

585
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:58,360
in some cases purging of these things from cultural and

586
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:01,239
national life. This is one of the reasons, and this

587
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:07,199
is changing, Thank god, that people are overly focused on

588
00:55:07,599 --> 00:55:11,599
sex in these posts.

589
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:14,800
Speaker 3: Number of socially engineered.

590
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:17,679
Speaker 2: Cultures, because that's one of the only avenues of intimacy,

591
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:23,000
like people still, that's just available, whether people can even conceptualize,

592
00:55:23,079 --> 00:55:25,639
and that's very worked, doesn't gonna be wrong. And people

593
00:55:25,679 --> 00:55:30,320
who think it through or who you know, have a

594
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:33,360
their modesty and their kind of internal moral core intact,

595
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:36,519
don't go that route. But a lot of men and

596
00:55:36,559 --> 00:55:41,440
women are weak and there's nobody there to properly guide

597
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:45,599
them as to why that's that's perverse. I'm not like

598
00:55:45,639 --> 00:55:49,079
acquitting them from responsibility, but a lot of people are

599
00:55:49,079 --> 00:55:57,119
easily misled. Okay, that's a fact, but yeah, I don't

600
00:55:57,159 --> 00:55:58,840
want to die. But in the next part of the

601
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:01,280
subject matter yet, I was going to kind of try

602
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:06,559
and tie this into the broader topical essence of the series,

603
00:56:06,559 --> 00:56:08,480
but we'll do that next time, and and long the last,

604
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:12,199
we return to the to the main topical thrust, which

605
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:15,239
is kind of a philosophy. I hope people found this worthwhile.

606
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:20,000
I think it was important to kind of artigulate that

607
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:27,039
the significance of the tradition was school of thought to

608
00:56:28,599 --> 00:56:31,199
you know, the revolutionary right and all of that.

609
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:36,599
Speaker 1: You know, I wanted to add this just because our

610
00:56:37,079 --> 00:56:41,039
mutual friend Carl Doll and I were recording on the

611
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:43,519
uh the Iron Guard yesterday.

612
00:56:43,719 --> 00:56:46,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's awesome. Both you guys told me that that's great. Yeah.

613
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:53,480
Speaker 1: Here's here's Vasilli Marine's quote that we ended it on,

614
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:58,920
has said, soaked in dynamism, our movement is revolutionary. The

615
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,559
Legion promotes the creative spirit in all the fields of

616
00:57:01,559 --> 00:57:06,960
public life and sincerely rejects conservatism. The Legion organizes the

617
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:09,280
conquest of the future with the help of all the

618
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:12,039
productive categories of the nation. And it does not represent

619
00:57:12,079 --> 00:57:13,920
a reaction towards the past.

620
00:57:15,599 --> 00:57:15,840
Speaker 3: Yep.

621
00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:21,440
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of people will will hear that,

622
00:57:21,639 --> 00:57:26,000
and they will forget that they're Orthodox Christians and that

623
00:57:26,559 --> 00:57:29,079
nothing that is said there negates that.

624
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:33,920
Speaker 3: No, it defines, it defines it. No.

625
00:57:34,079 --> 00:57:37,039
Speaker 2: And this was you know, I know, Carl's a he's

626
00:57:37,039 --> 00:57:40,599
a great guy, like he's our he's our friend and comrade.

627
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:44,519
But he's also a brilliant dude. And the it's not

628
00:57:44,599 --> 00:57:50,119
just uh like intellectual curiosity that that brings thoughtful people

629
00:57:50,239 --> 00:57:53,800
to a study of the Iron Guard. It's it's got

630
00:57:53,880 --> 00:58:01,320
a hugely outsized significance in terms of a revolutionary practis

631
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:05,719
you know, and and the and the essence of uh,

632
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:10,239
you know, it was not only was it not reactionary,

633
00:58:10,239 --> 00:58:12,159
it was like very forward looking. That kind of thing

634
00:58:12,239 --> 00:58:14,840
is incredibly I mean, one of the things that doomed

635
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:16,880
the Legionary movement was that it was like too early.

636
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:22,400
I think, you know it, Uh, it's very much suited

637
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:26,360
to the world of like nineteen eighty nine and beyond,

638
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:30,440
like obviously you know, it's our present. Yeah, no, that's

639
00:58:31,119 --> 00:58:34,000
that's great. And no, I'm glad that you and Carl

640
00:58:36,119 --> 00:58:39,679
were covering that subject matter because that this will be

641
00:58:39,719 --> 00:58:42,360
kind of a complement piece to that stuff too.

642
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:44,119
Speaker 3: Well.

643
00:58:44,159 --> 00:58:47,559
Speaker 1: I think this this went a lot more into the

644
00:58:47,559 --> 00:58:49,199
philosophy behind it and why.

645
00:58:50,519 --> 00:58:53,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, good deal. No, I'm glad. I'm glad I'm being

646
00:58:53,599 --> 00:58:54,840
useful and not just redundant.

647
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:59,199
Speaker 1: But yeah, all right, Thomas, tell everybody where they can

648
00:58:59,239 --> 00:59:00,000
find you.

649
00:59:00,679 --> 00:59:03,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, you can find me on my website. It's

650
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:07,639
Thomas seven seven seven dot com. It's number seven h s.

651
00:59:10,559 --> 00:59:11,239
Speaker 3: I.

652
00:59:11,239 --> 00:59:13,519
Speaker 2: I'm on social media at the time being, like we'll

653
00:59:13,519 --> 00:59:16,480
see if I'm SORR at some point they're gonna like

654
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:20,559
ban this account too, even though I I never violate

655
00:59:20,639 --> 00:59:27,519
t OS. But it's at Thomas Sear that's my government

656
00:59:27,599 --> 00:59:31,199
name t H O M A S c y R

657
00:59:31,639 --> 00:59:36,440
seven seven seven and my substack roll out of the

658
00:59:36,519 --> 00:59:40,760
Magic Happens, you know, like my podcast, like some video content,

659
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:44,760
long form stuff like announcements relevant to like our cadre,

660
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:48,400
you know, and and when and where we're meeting up

661
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:53,000
and stuff that's at real Thomas seven seven seven dot

662
00:59:53,199 --> 00:59:56,199
substack dot com. And forget like my voice and stuff

663
00:59:56,239 --> 00:59:57,760
like I'm feeling a lot better and that was like

664
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:00,239
some weeks back, but I I'm still dealing with like

665
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:01,480
respiratory stuff, you know.

666
01:00:03,079 --> 01:00:05,400
Speaker 1: All right, no problem, Thank you to ill ten in

667
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:06,880
a couple of days. Take care