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<v Speaker 1>On the night of March first, two thousand and eight,

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<v Speaker 1>two men forced their way into a quiet home in Alba, Texas,

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<v Speaker 1>and by the time their rampage ended, three members of

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<v Speaker 1>the Kaffe family, a devoted mother and her two young sons,

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<v Speaker 1>were dead. The only survivors were sixteen year old Aaron

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<v Speaker 1>Caffey and her father, Terry Caffey. This is the terrifying

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<v Speaker 1>story of the Kaffe family massacre.

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<v Speaker 2>My name's Ben, I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked

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<v Speaker 2>and Grim, a true crime podcasting. The following podcast material

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<v Speaker 2>intended for a mature audience listener discretion.

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<v Speaker 1>Shout out to Michelle. Michelle Freeman, you suggested this case

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<v Speaker 1>over on Patreon so caught my attention. Here we are,

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<v Speaker 1>we're doing it today.

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<v Speaker 2>I recognize that name you do.

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<v Speaker 1>I do. Michelle has been around for a little while

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<v Speaker 1>and been quite awesome, especially now that we're getting cases here.

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<v Speaker 1>You're definitely doing your due diligence and helping us out.

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<v Speaker 1>So thank you so much. Okay, we have coffee in hand.

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<v Speaker 1>We hope you have a drink in your hand too,

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<v Speaker 1>because this is going to be an interesting case and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm curious what your guys' thoughts are going to be

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<v Speaker 1>on this one because there is an open end kind

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<v Speaker 1>of at the end of this story. Oh, okay, it's

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<v Speaker 1>a solved case.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, that was gonna be a question I had.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a solved case. But some people think something else

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<v Speaker 1>and some people think something else. And someone claimed something

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<v Speaker 1>and someone claimed something else. It's there's two sides to

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<v Speaker 1>this coin on which you think it could or could

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<v Speaker 1>not be.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, I'm sure there's many cases that they

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<v Speaker 2>say is solved, but it is wrong, right.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, potentially, And that's that's what's happening here is the

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<v Speaker 1>individual who was one of the individuals who was convicted

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<v Speaker 1>claims they were not really responsible for it.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, ding dang. Wasn't there the one recently where the person,

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<v Speaker 2>Oh I can't even remember, they claimed like it was

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<v Speaker 2>a documentary that you would watch where they claimed they

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<v Speaker 2>didn't do it.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, was it the dad or yeah? There was a

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<v Speaker 1>father was yeah name and.

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<v Speaker 2>He said that he was set up or something.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I can't remember his name off the top of

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<v Speaker 1>my head, but yeah he was. He was he was

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<v Speaker 1>over from Egypt and he immigrated into North America, had

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<v Speaker 1>a family, had daughters and then yeah, it was like

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<v Speaker 1>kind of really running their life and stuff, and he

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<v Speaker 1>ended up killing his his two daughters in the backseat

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<v Speaker 1>of the car.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and wasn't me.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it wasn't me.

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<v Speaker 2>It wasn't me.

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<v Speaker 1>It wasn't me. His name was not Shaggy though. But yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>do you have anything we need to cover today? We've

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<v Speaker 1>got a lot of snow. I know that's covering us.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, holy shit, is it ever?

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<v Speaker 1>And hopefully you guys, if you're living in the US,

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<v Speaker 1>hopefully I had a great Thanksgiving. Hopefully you're going to

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<v Speaker 1>survive your Black Friday and get all those deals and

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<v Speaker 1>get the good stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>Well we get to like we piggyback on those deals.

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<v Speaker 1>We do.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So, like I've already done a little bit, which

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<v Speaker 2>there's more I want to do, but I'm like, hold

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<v Speaker 2>the phone.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, the thing is, you need to have some self control,

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<v Speaker 1>which I am not very good for. So do not

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<v Speaker 1>say I'm practice what I preach, not do as I say,

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<v Speaker 1>not as I do. How's that before I say anything?

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<v Speaker 1>You need to have self control and try and just

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<v Speaker 1>like you know, purchase what you need to get rather

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<v Speaker 1>than what you want. Of course, throwing once some once

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<v Speaker 1>once in a while.

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<v Speaker 2>It is a good time though, to do like Christmas

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<v Speaker 2>shop ready to get like some good deals and for

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<v Speaker 2>gifts and stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>So definitely it's just really easy to, you know, buy

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<v Speaker 1>unnecessary things this time of year, which I definitely have

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<v Speaker 1>a habit of doing. I'm not gonna lie.

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<v Speaker 2>I did buy a Canucks jersey. You did, so that's

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<v Speaker 2>pretty exciting.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean, it wasn't a Black Friday deal, but

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<v Speaker 1>I bought a mini hockey stick and then to go

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<v Speaker 1>with it, I had to have a mini hockey goalie stick.

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<v Speaker 2>That was not a Black Friday sale in the last.

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<v Speaker 1>No, but it was an impulse by that I did

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<v Speaker 1>not need to do.

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<v Speaker 2>And Ben like make sure you don't go overboard in here.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So I'm well, that's what I'm saying. I'm not

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<v Speaker 1>the best at it myself.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't even know where those are going to go

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<v Speaker 2>in our home, but figure that out.

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<v Speaker 1>They're gonna go in my hand playing mini hockey with

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<v Speaker 1>the dogs in the hallway of our tiny home.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh boy, yep.

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<v Speaker 1>Anyways, we digress. Let's get into this case, shall we h.

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<v Speaker 1>So this is a story of the Kaffe family masker.

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<v Speaker 1>As I mentioned, at the beginning now the Kaffee family.

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<v Speaker 1>They were well known and beloved reve residents of Alba, Texas.

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<v Speaker 1>And now this is a rural town with a population

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<v Speaker 1>of just over five hundreds. It's a little tiny town

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<v Speaker 1>and it's nestled in the woods of East Texas, about

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<v Speaker 1>forty five minutes northwest of Tyler. The Caffes lived on

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<v Speaker 1>a serene stretch of land surrounded by tall trees in

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<v Speaker 1>thick brush. At the heart of their property stood a

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<v Speaker 1>modest log cabin accessible by a single gravel driveway. Penny

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<v Speaker 1>Caffe was the mother of the family. She was dedicating

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<v Speaker 1>herself to homeschooling her three children, Aaron, the oldest, Matthew

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<v Speaker 1>effectually known as Bubba, and the youngest Tyler. Penny was

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<v Speaker 1>an active member of the Miracle Faith Baptist Church, where

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<v Speaker 1>she played piano during Sunday services. Her husband, Terry, worked

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<v Speaker 1>as a home health aid and served as a lay preacher,

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<v Speaker 1>which is a preacher who's not officially ordained, so it's

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<v Speaker 1>basically playing that role, but he's not officially ordained as one.

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<v Speaker 1>So the family's oldest child, Aaron, was known for her

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<v Speaker 1>striking blonde hair, an exceptional singing voice, which often brought

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<v Speaker 1>church congregations to tears. At sixteen years old, Aaron performed

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<v Speaker 1>gospel solos on Sundays, captivating the audience with her raw

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<v Speaker 1>emotion as she sang. In fact, it wasn't uncommon for

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<v Speaker 1>her to actually pause mid performance that went from singing

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<v Speaker 1>to collect herself because she's like overcome with like the

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<v Speaker 1>lyrics and the emotion of the song and everything, so

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<v Speaker 1>she'd like pause during her performance, collect herself and then

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<v Speaker 1>keep going, oh wow, like super passionate, very much so.

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<v Speaker 1>And outside of church and schoolwork, Erin worked at a

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<v Speaker 1>local sonic drive in. She was actually known for like

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<v Speaker 1>going out in like roller skating, orders up to like

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<v Speaker 1>cars and stuff which nice didn't happen like all that

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<v Speaker 1>often and everything, but she was one that did go

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<v Speaker 1>do it now. Aaron's brothers, Matthew and Tyler, were quiet

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<v Speaker 1>but polite boys. Matthew was in seventh grade and Tyler

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<v Speaker 1>was in the fourth. They were inseparable and adored by

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<v Speaker 1>their parents. Among the three siblings, Erin was the most outgoing,

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<v Speaker 1>though she remained very deeply influenced by her family's faith

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<v Speaker 1>centered lifestyle. So she's quite outgoing, but you know still

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<v Speaker 1>that that church girl. You know, faith was, if you

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<v Speaker 1>haven't guessed by now, the cornerstone of the Caffe household.

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<v Speaker 1>Wednesdays were reserved for Bible study and Sundays were dedicated

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<v Speaker 1>to church for Terry and Penny. Their shared beliefs had

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<v Speaker 1>been a foundation for their relationship since meeting at their

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<v Speaker 1>revival service in Garland, Texas, when Penny was just twenty

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<v Speaker 1>one and Terry was twenty four. So that faith was

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<v Speaker 1>really what kind of brought them together and is keeping

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<v Speaker 1>them together right. But what appeared to be a family

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<v Speaker 1>bound by faith and love was about to be, unfortunately

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<v Speaker 1>torn apart in one of the most devastating ways imaginable.

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<v Speaker 1>On the early morning of March first, two thousand and eight,

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<v Speaker 1>Charles Dickerson, the only police officer on duty in the

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<v Speaker 1>small town of Alba, Texas, received an urgent call from

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<v Speaker 1>the Rains County Sheriff's office. It was just after four

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<v Speaker 1>thirty am when a call came through from a neighbor, Tommy.

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<v Speaker 1>Now Tommy was reporting a shooting and a house fire

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<v Speaker 1>at the Kaffe residence next door. Tommy reported that a

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<v Speaker 1>man had been shot multiple times and managed to make

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<v Speaker 1>his way over to his house for help, and that

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<v Speaker 1>man was forty one year old Terry Caffey. Oh shit, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>he crawled over to the neighbor's place.

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<v Speaker 3>Wow.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. The dispatcher confirmed that Terry was conscious and breathing,

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<v Speaker 1>but bleeding heavily with multiple gunshot wounds. Officer Dickerson immediately

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<v Speaker 1>responded and was approaching the property when they saw a

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<v Speaker 1>glowing orange light coming into view, which got brighter as

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<v Speaker 1>he neared it, which was, of course, the house fully

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<v Speaker 1>engulfed in flames. He quickly radioed for Volunteer fire department

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<v Speaker 1>and they were dispatched to the property as well. Officer

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<v Speaker 1>Dickerson found Terry Caffey lying on the living room floor

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<v Speaker 1>of Tommy's home when he arrived, and he's gravely injured.

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<v Speaker 1>His clothes were soaked in blood as he had been

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<v Speaker 1>shot a total of five times, including once in the head,

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<v Speaker 1>twice near the right shoulder, and two more times in

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<v Speaker 1>his back.

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<v Speaker 2>And he still managed to make his way to the neighbors. Hey.

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<v Speaker 1>Correct. His clothes were a shirt, pajama pants, and one

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<v Speaker 1>wet sock Terry had. I mean, of course he soaked.

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<v Speaker 1>The one sock was like soaked in blood. Specifically, so

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<v Speaker 1>Terry had crawled approximately five hundred yards from his burning

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<v Speaker 1>home to safety at the neighbor's place, despite his critical injuries. Yosh,

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<v Speaker 1>this is a very rural area. His neighbor isn't just

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<v Speaker 1>next door, his neighbor is five hundred yards away.

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<v Speaker 2>Well. I was actually wondering that because, like you said,

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<v Speaker 2>it was such a small town, and was assuming that

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<v Speaker 2>the houses weren't super close together.

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<v Speaker 1>They definitely weren't. Whoa, So as he crawled this distance

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<v Speaker 1>from house to house along the way, he had actually

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<v Speaker 1>fallen into a creek and nearly drowned before he managed

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<v Speaker 1>to pull himself out of the creek and continue heading

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<v Speaker 1>to the neighbors as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, that is some strength.

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<v Speaker 1>A no shit. So I do want to say this

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<v Speaker 1>right now, Terry is one hundred percent our badass of

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<v Speaker 1>the day, not only for that, but for other reasons

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<v Speaker 1>that we will discuss later. So, Terry was rushed to

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<v Speaker 1>the hospital and when he was able to, he told

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<v Speaker 1>police everything he remembered. Now, as I said at the

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<v Speaker 1>very beginning, Terry did survive. In the intro, I said

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<v Speaker 1>that Terry did survive this encounter, and in the early

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<v Speaker 1>hours of March first, two thousand and eight, he and

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<v Speaker 1>his wife were attacked, and he begins to tell the

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<v Speaker 1>police exactly what happened. So he and Penny were laying

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<v Speaker 1>in their bedroom when the sound of gunfire began. The

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<v Speaker 1>lights were out. You know they are their sound asleep.

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<v Speaker 1>It's four am, right, and Terry recalled the terrifying realization

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<v Speaker 1>that someone was standing over them shooting at them. When

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<v Speaker 1>he heard the gunshots beginning, they screamed, and in the

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<v Speaker 1>disorienting chaos, he heard the distinct sound of a gun

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<v Speaker 1>being reloaded, and in that moment he thought he was

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<v Speaker 1>going to die for sure. The noise and the flashes

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<v Speaker 1>of gunfire engulfed the entire room and was soon also

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<v Speaker 1>filled with an overpowering, overpowering scent of gunpowder. Windows were shattering,

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<v Speaker 1>and then there was later an intense heat that began

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<v Speaker 1>to fill the house as it was set on fire.

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<v Speaker 1>At this point, Terry had been shot from the attackers

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<v Speaker 1>and was desperately trying to reach his children upstairs. He

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<v Speaker 1>also had to understand that he needed to get out

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<v Speaker 1>of a blazing house as well, which he soon knew

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<v Speaker 1>he had to. He attempted to navigate the thick smoke

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<v Speaker 1>in the flames, but was forced back into the bedroom.

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<v Speaker 1>When he tried to make his way across the bed,

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<v Speaker 1>that's when he found his wife, Penny, lying lifeless on

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<v Speaker 1>the other side.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh.

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<v Speaker 1>Terry had no other choice but to make an escape

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<v Speaker 1>and save himself, so he made his way out of

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<v Speaker 1>the house through the bathroom window and over to his neighbors.

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<v Speaker 1>Terry was also able to give authorities a very important

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<v Speaker 1>piece of information. He knew who one of the attackers was. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>it was Charlie Wilkinson. Now this is a This is

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<v Speaker 1>the boyfriend of his sixteen year old daughter.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh gosh, Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>It was Charlie who had shot and killed the family.

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<v Speaker 1>Terry explained that he and Penny had recently confronted Aaron

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<v Speaker 1>about their relationship with Charlie, and they told her the

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<v Speaker 1>relationship needs to end, which for reasons we'll get into.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the responding officers, Kurt Fisher, recognized Charlie's name.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, after all, this is a very small town, right.

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<v Speaker 1>So Officer Fisher's sons were friends with him, and he

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<v Speaker 1>knew this, and he noted that on his way to

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<v Speaker 1>the crime scene, he'd actually seen Charlie's vehicle outside a

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<v Speaker 1>trailer belonging to another young individual by the name of

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<v Speaker 1>Matthew Wade, which was one of Charlie's accomplice accomplices, sorry, acquaintances,

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<v Speaker 1>not accomplices, one of Charlie's acquaintances. So it's a friend

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<v Speaker 1>and he's parked over there. Officer noted that on the way.

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<v Speaker 2>By, right, Okay, that's yeah, that's observant.

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<v Speaker 1>So he knew right away where Charlie's vehicle was, and

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<v Speaker 1>he knew Charlie's now involved in this, so they dispatch

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<v Speaker 1>officers to go over there right away. He acted on

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<v Speaker 1>that lead, and yeah, they headed over to that trailer.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, clearly Charlie wasn't expecting anyone to or the dad

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<v Speaker 2>or anyone to survive this or else he would have

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<v Speaker 2>like masked himself, you'd think, exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, is there anything you've noticed from this story just yet?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I do have like a small inclining of something.

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<v Speaker 1>Is that a word inclination?

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, yeah, that, but I don't know if

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<v Speaker 2>i'll say it yet. I feel like we've covered stuff

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<v Speaker 2>like this before, where it's like now I'm kind of

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<v Speaker 2>wondering if maybe the daughter is potentially like involved with

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<v Speaker 2>this as well.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so that's your question. Have you noticed anything specific

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<v Speaker 1>about said daughter yet?

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<v Speaker 2>Noticed anything? Well, she's also survived, as from your intro,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm wondering if she's wasn't even in the house

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<v Speaker 2>maybe well in the attack.

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<v Speaker 1>So far, I've described the father, the mother, and the

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<v Speaker 1>two brothers, but I have not touched on her.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh you did talk about the two brothers in the.

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<v Speaker 1>Attack, well briefly because the dad, Terry, went upstairs to

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<v Speaker 1>try and get to him. Oh okay, yeah, but he

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<v Speaker 1>was unable to and had to backtrack scape the house.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, So like one could assume that he was also

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<v Speaker 2>trying to go to her room as well.

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<v Speaker 1>I kind of did.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I'm kind of wondering if she wasn't even

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<v Speaker 2>there or was or was a part of all this.

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<v Speaker 1>So well, we're about to get into all that because yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>that is a very glaring thing question that's looming over

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<v Speaker 1>this case. Was she involved? So we're going to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about where she was, was she in the house and

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<v Speaker 1>all that right here? Okay, So police arrived this trailer

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<v Speaker 1>where Charlie's vehicles parked, armed with search warrants and they

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<v Speaker 1>made their way into the home. They were dirty clothes,

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<v Speaker 1>beer cans, and a mess everywhere. It was not the

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<v Speaker 1>most well kept place. Officers made their way to the bedroom,

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<v Speaker 1>where they found the owner, Matthew Wade, and his girlfriend

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<v Speaker 1>sleeping in the bedroom. In another room, they found Charlie

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<v Speaker 1>laying awake on a mattress, dressed in jeans. Beside him

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<v Speaker 1>on the floor was a semi automatic handgun, the type

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<v Speaker 1>of weapon consistent with the attacks the Kaffee house, a

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00:15:27.159 --> 00:15:31.600
<v Speaker 1>twenty two caliber. Police, of course, immediately arrested Charlie, informing

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<v Speaker 1>him that the kaffe family had been murdered and asking

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<v Speaker 1>if he had any involvement. Charlie initially denied everything, claiming

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<v Speaker 1>he had been drinking heavily and he passed out that night. However,

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<v Speaker 1>when officers searched for his clothing, they discovered a critical

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<v Speaker 1>piece of evidence. His cowboy boots were splattered in blood.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, I would imagine that there would be some

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<v Speaker 2>blood on his clothes.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Now, In the living room, they also found a

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<v Speaker 1>camouflage purse containing Aaron's driver's license. The bedroom where Charlie

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<v Speaker 1>had been found was even more revealing. Now Initially, blankets

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<v Speaker 1>blocked out the light in the room, and it was

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<v Speaker 1>extremely dark and kind of claustrophobic, almost so, when one

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00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:13.600
<v Speaker 1>officer tore down a blanket covering the window, the room

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00:16:13.639 --> 00:16:16.720
<v Speaker 1>lit up and revealed quite the scene. There were shell

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00:16:16.759 --> 00:16:20.679
<v Speaker 1>casings scattered across the carpet, a case of ammunition lay nearby,

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00:16:21.320 --> 00:16:24.120
<v Speaker 1>but most damning of all beneath a pile of blankets

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00:16:24.159 --> 00:16:28.080
<v Speaker 1>on the floor. The officer saw some blonde hair poking

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00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:33.399
<v Speaker 1>out when they pulled back the blankets. Sitting there, curled

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<v Speaker 1>up in the fetal position with her back against the wall,

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00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:40.159
<v Speaker 1>was Aaron Caffey. She appeared confused and disoriented, saying that

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<v Speaker 1>she didn't know where she was, and she was immediately

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<v Speaker 1>brought into police custody. Now as we already touched on

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00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:50.200
<v Speaker 1>to the outside world, Aaron Caffey was a sweet and

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<v Speaker 1>charismatic girl. She had a magnetic charm that drew attention

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<v Speaker 1>from many people, but particularly from the boys as well.

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00:16:58.679 --> 00:17:01.600
<v Speaker 1>She was petite, bubble, and to top it all off,

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00:17:01.639 --> 00:17:04.839
<v Speaker 1>she enjoyed the spotlight. While she thrived on this attention,

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00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:08.279
<v Speaker 1>those close to her often described her as shelter in naive.

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<v Speaker 1>The Kaffe family had always been cautious about their children's

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<v Speaker 1>exposure to the world. When Aarin was thirteen, for example,

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<v Speaker 1>a significant event changed the family's trajectory. When attending public school,

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00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:22.720
<v Speaker 1>Aaron had encountered an encounter with a student who expressed

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<v Speaker 1>some romantic interest with her and kissed her in the hallway.

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<v Speaker 1>This incident greatly upset the parents, and it prompted them

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<v Speaker 1>to pull Erin and her brothers from public school entirely,

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<v Speaker 1>which from there Penny took on the responsibility of homeschooling them,

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00:17:35.680 --> 00:17:42.400
<v Speaker 1>utilizing the strict Bible based curriculum. So Erin was quite outgoing,

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00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:45.880
<v Speaker 1>quite bubbly, but she was also quite withdrawn and now

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00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:50.160
<v Speaker 1>she finds herself in this situation. So while Erin's parents

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00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:53.079
<v Speaker 1>worked hard to protect her, this sheltered environment also left

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<v Speaker 1>her inexperienced in navigating relationships in the outside world. When

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<v Speaker 1>she turned sixteen in July two thousand and seven, she

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<v Speaker 1>gained a sense of newfound freedom with their driver's license

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00:18:02.279 --> 00:18:05.480
<v Speaker 1>and used the Chevy pickup truck to get to and

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00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:08.599
<v Speaker 1>from her house or events in school, of course work

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00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:12.359
<v Speaker 1>as well. That summer, she met Charlie Wilkinson, an eighteen

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00:18:12.440 --> 00:18:15.519
<v Speaker 1>year old with who was a little rough around the edges.

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<v Speaker 1>You know. Charlie was an outdoorsy country kind of kid.

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00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:20.880
<v Speaker 1>He wore wrangler jeans and cowboy boots and head sandy

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00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:24.359
<v Speaker 1>blonde hair, light blue eyes. His online MySpace user name

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<v Speaker 1>was even Hillbilly.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, he really embraced the role.

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<v Speaker 1>He definitely did. Charlie exuded a confidence that attracted attention,

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<v Speaker 1>but beneath his comic sterior, unfortunately, was a temper that

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<v Speaker 1>could be provoked with little efforts. Now, Charlie had recently

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00:18:39.680 --> 00:18:45.079
<v Speaker 1>turned returned from boot camp at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, where

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<v Speaker 1>he trained with the Texas National Guard, his future plans

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00:18:48.039 --> 00:18:51.400
<v Speaker 1>including joining the active duty after graduation. And at home,

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00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:54.200
<v Speaker 1>he lived with his father, stepmother, and three siblings. His

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00:18:54.200 --> 00:18:56.519
<v Speaker 1>father worked at a paper mill outside of Dallas, where

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<v Speaker 1>his mother, who had moved to Del Rio after their divorce,

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<v Speaker 1>was largely absent from his life. Visits with her were rare,

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00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:06.680
<v Speaker 1>occurring only once or twice a year. Despite the family dynamics, though,

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00:19:07.319 --> 00:19:10.079
<v Speaker 1>Charlie had carved out a life filled with activities he loved,

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00:19:10.119 --> 00:19:13.680
<v Speaker 1>concluding hunting and fishing. Although he had no record of

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00:19:13.720 --> 00:19:17.799
<v Speaker 1>criminal behavior or serious disciplinary issues, Charlie's quick temper was

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<v Speaker 1>well known. He was impulsive, but he did generally avoid confrontation.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, he's got a temper, but he's not going

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<v Speaker 1>to be one to just like start swinging or be

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00:19:25.960 --> 00:19:30.960
<v Speaker 1>physically abusive or anything. Okay, So now Aarin and Charlie

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00:19:31.480 --> 00:19:33.640
<v Speaker 1>the two cross paths at the local Sonic drive in

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00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:37.000
<v Speaker 1>where Aaron worked roller skating orders out to customers, and

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<v Speaker 1>not long after Halloween of two thousand and seven, Charlie

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00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:44.400
<v Speaker 1>finally asked Aaron to be his girlfriend, which began, of course,

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00:19:44.440 --> 00:19:48.240
<v Speaker 1>a whirlwind of romance that quickly consumed both the teenagers.

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<v Speaker 1>By all accounts, Charlie fell hard for Aarin, and the

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<v Speaker 1>intensity of the relationship was apparent from the start. While

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<v Speaker 1>Aaron's parents initially tolerated their relationship, they soon grew easy

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<v Speaker 1>about the speed at which things were progressing, which is understandable,

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<v Speaker 1>you know for teenagers and stuff, especially for someone you know,

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00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:08.880
<v Speaker 1>in a little bit of a religious household, having that

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<v Speaker 1>faith foundation, right, you tend to want to, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>save yourself for marriage and you know that sort of thing, right,

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<v Speaker 1>and finding you know, your teenage kid is now kind

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<v Speaker 1>of running them up. I guess not really, but you know,

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00:20:23.480 --> 00:20:25.599
<v Speaker 1>she's going out with this kind of rougher around the

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<v Speaker 1>edge kind of kid.

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<v Speaker 2>It's and I'm assuming like he isn't religious.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, he was, Oh he was. Okay, No, we

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00:20:32.839 --> 00:20:35.400
<v Speaker 1>were talking like in the Texas area here, so it's

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00:20:35.480 --> 00:20:38.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, there's there's a lot of well I think

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<v Speaker 1>Texas is technically considered in that Bible belt, if I'm

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00:20:40.279 --> 00:20:42.400
<v Speaker 1>not mistaken, there's a lot of people who are of

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<v Speaker 1>faith in the area.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, and he was as.

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00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:49.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, though maybe it's a differing amount of faith, who knows.

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00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:52.799
<v Speaker 1>But he certainly attended church too, because they had some

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00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:54.799
<v Speaker 1>some church stuff going on and things as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay. I thought maybe that was the problem, but okay.

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00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:02.400
<v Speaker 1>No, it was more like they just had certain expectations

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00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:06.200
<v Speaker 1>for their daughter and they didn't see Charlie as a

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00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:08.920
<v Speaker 1>good influence towards those expectations, I guess.

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00:21:09.079 --> 00:21:12.079
<v Speaker 2>Okay, yeah, Well, I mean I feel a lot of

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00:21:12.119 --> 00:21:16.200
<v Speaker 2>times with parents like you just would the expectations you

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00:21:16.279 --> 00:21:19.400
<v Speaker 2>may have of your kid or whatever, and the spouse

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00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:21.680
<v Speaker 2>will never meet those, right because you think that your

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00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:24.039
<v Speaker 2>kid is like the most amazing thing in the whole world,

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00:21:24.039 --> 00:21:27.440
<v Speaker 2>which rightfully so, but like no one will meet those.

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00:21:27.640 --> 00:21:31.559
<v Speaker 1>Exactly, that's for sure. Now the Kafes, they play strict

399
00:21:31.640 --> 00:21:35.559
<v Speaker 1>rules on Aaron and her relationship, only allowing them to

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00:21:35.559 --> 00:21:39.200
<v Speaker 1>actually spend time together under supervision and ensuring Charlie left

401
00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:42.400
<v Speaker 1>the house by nine pm sharp, which I mean is

402
00:21:42.440 --> 00:21:45.720
<v Speaker 1>good to have boundaries and have rules. However, Aarin and

403
00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:49.680
<v Speaker 1>Charlie would of course break those rules whenever possible. For example,

404
00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:51.960
<v Speaker 1>they would talk in the phone for hours the moment

405
00:21:52.039 --> 00:21:54.000
<v Speaker 1>Charlie would leave the house at nine pm, like he

406
00:21:54.039 --> 00:21:56.400
<v Speaker 1>would he would leave, and then they had immediately call

407
00:21:56.440 --> 00:21:58.519
<v Speaker 1>each other and talk on the phone like way laid

408
00:21:58.559 --> 00:22:00.519
<v Speaker 1>up into the night, and then Aaron's parents would have

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00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:03.160
<v Speaker 1>to like hang up the fucking phone, go to bad

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00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:04.039
<v Speaker 1>sort of situation.

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00:22:04.599 --> 00:22:07.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's so cute though it is.

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00:22:07.880 --> 00:22:10.559
<v Speaker 1>It's definitely cute. No, I have nothing against their the

413
00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:15.640
<v Speaker 1>relationship right now at least. Yeah, it's just it's puppy love,

414
00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:16.759
<v Speaker 1>you know, that's what it is.

415
00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:17.759
<v Speaker 2>Now.

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00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:20.079
<v Speaker 1>In December of two thousand and seven, Aaron begged her

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00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:23.319
<v Speaker 1>parents to allow her to return to public school. At

418
00:22:23.319 --> 00:22:25.720
<v Speaker 1>this point, her brothers had already re enrolled earlier in

419
00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:28.559
<v Speaker 1>that fall, and Aaron argued that she was missing social

420
00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:33.640
<v Speaker 1>interactions and normalcy, normalacy of school life. Penny and Terry

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00:22:34.440 --> 00:22:37.559
<v Speaker 1>couldn't really argue that fact. Their daughter was right. She

422
00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:42.880
<v Speaker 1>is missing out on, you know, things in public having friends, whatever,

423
00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:48.079
<v Speaker 1>that that sort of stuff comes along with public school.

424
00:22:47.240 --> 00:22:53.480
<v Speaker 1>You can't compete with homeschooled life and public school to

425
00:22:53.559 --> 00:22:57.519
<v Speaker 1>all degrees. Yeah, maybe curriculum wise you can. Maybe relationship

426
00:22:57.519 --> 00:22:59.799
<v Speaker 1>with your children, you can, but at a certain point

427
00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:02.480
<v Speaker 1>to realize you're cutting off that social interaction with your

428
00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:05.119
<v Speaker 1>child in the world around you. And that's something that

429
00:23:05.160 --> 00:23:09.079
<v Speaker 1>Penny and Terry couldn't couldn't argue. So they reluctantly, reluctantly

430
00:23:09.079 --> 00:23:11.920
<v Speaker 1>agreed and they re enrolled her, seeing it as an

431
00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:14.880
<v Speaker 1>opportunity for Penny to devote more time as well to

432
00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:16.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, earn the house a little bit more of

433
00:23:16.480 --> 00:23:18.480
<v Speaker 1>an income, as if she's not teaching the kids, she

434
00:23:18.519 --> 00:23:21.000
<v Speaker 1>can kind of go back to work. Okay, So it's

435
00:23:21.079 --> 00:23:23.240
<v Speaker 1>kind of a win win overall if they do that.

436
00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:27.079
<v Speaker 2>But honestly, too, when kids homeschooling just like blows my

437
00:23:27.160 --> 00:23:30.559
<v Speaker 2>mind in a sense, when kids get you know, in

438
00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:33.599
<v Speaker 2>like higher grades, I don't even know how you would

439
00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:35.920
<v Speaker 2>go aboute teaching them because you may not know that

440
00:23:35.960 --> 00:23:38.720
<v Speaker 2>stuff on your yourself. I feel like that'd be so hard.

441
00:23:39.079 --> 00:23:41.680
<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm going to play Devil's advocate here and I'm

442
00:23:41.960 --> 00:23:46.440
<v Speaker 1>I'm no teacher, but I don't think every teacher knows

443
00:23:46.759 --> 00:23:50.200
<v Speaker 1>every single thing that they're teaching. There's there's curriculum for

444
00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:53.200
<v Speaker 1>them to follow, right, Like for example, a friend of

445
00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:56.200
<v Speaker 1>ours who's who's teaching photography in high school right now,

446
00:23:57.519 --> 00:24:01.039
<v Speaker 1>brought me up to help teach photography right for the day.

447
00:24:01.079 --> 00:24:03.559
<v Speaker 1>I was like a guest and talked about photography and

448
00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:06.079
<v Speaker 1>business and stuff, and she's like, yeah, I don't know

449
00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:08.000
<v Speaker 1>fuck all about photography. You know, helped me out a

450
00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:10.799
<v Speaker 1>little bit here, and she's following the curriculum. She's doing

451
00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:13.200
<v Speaker 1>a great job, but she doesn't know she's learning it too.

452
00:24:14.039 --> 00:24:14.279
<v Speaker 2>Right.

453
00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:17.880
<v Speaker 1>The teacher can't know everything, just like a parent can't know.

454
00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:21.599
<v Speaker 2>Well, I do feel like, especially in the higher grades.

455
00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:24.240
<v Speaker 2>So like a math teacher teaches math, right, so they

456
00:24:24.319 --> 00:24:28.200
<v Speaker 2>specialize in that. Yes, so I don't know, but yeah, no,

457
00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:28.759
<v Speaker 2>I get it.

458
00:24:28.839 --> 00:24:30.720
<v Speaker 1>You're not about to have your math teacher, though, go

459
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:34.240
<v Speaker 1>out and teach science or physical education usually right, it's

460
00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:39.279
<v Speaker 1>usually yeah, that's specialization. Yeah, But now this decision though

461
00:24:39.319 --> 00:24:42.640
<v Speaker 1>to actually send Aaron two back to public school, however,

462
00:24:42.759 --> 00:24:47.519
<v Speaker 1>gave the new young couple significant more time together as well.

463
00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:51.839
<v Speaker 1>At school, the couple were inseparable. They walked the halls

464
00:24:51.880 --> 00:24:54.960
<v Speaker 1>hand in hand, shared lunch together, and occasionally slipped away

465
00:24:55.599 --> 00:24:58.400
<v Speaker 1>into Aaron's truck for you know, a couple makeout sessions,

466
00:24:58.519 --> 00:25:03.400
<v Speaker 1>right ye. By Christmas, their relationship progressed, and one night,

467
00:25:03.880 --> 00:25:07.240
<v Speaker 1>Charlie presented Arin with his grandmother's engagement ring.

468
00:25:10.119 --> 00:25:12.440
<v Speaker 2>Holy shit, that was a bad time to take a drink.

469
00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:14.319
<v Speaker 2>I was not expecting that.

470
00:25:14.680 --> 00:25:17.359
<v Speaker 1>Now. When he presented her this ring, he didn't present

471
00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:19.480
<v Speaker 1>it as an engagement ring, but he did present it

472
00:25:19.519 --> 00:25:20.839
<v Speaker 1>as a promise ring.

473
00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:24.839
<v Speaker 2>Okay, yes, that's still like kind of young though, but yeah.

474
00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:28.319
<v Speaker 1>Definitely definitely now. Aaron's mother, Penny, noticed the ring on

475
00:25:28.359 --> 00:25:31.640
<v Speaker 1>her finger, and she demanded that Aaron return it for

476
00:25:31.720 --> 00:25:35.480
<v Speaker 1>her father, Terry. This was a turning point. Concerned about

477
00:25:35.559 --> 00:25:39.279
<v Speaker 1>Charlie's increasing influence over Aaron, he and Penny both imposed

478
00:25:39.319 --> 00:25:43.440
<v Speaker 1>even stricter rules on the relationship between the two. Visits

479
00:25:43.480 --> 00:25:46.119
<v Speaker 1>between them were both cut back. They could only see

480
00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:48.400
<v Speaker 1>each other once a week, and they were closely monitored

481
00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:52.200
<v Speaker 1>during these visits as well. Aaron's frustration was growing, and

482
00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:54.880
<v Speaker 1>she began confiding in others about her anger over the

483
00:25:54.920 --> 00:25:58.119
<v Speaker 1>situation and her parents' control. She even told her aunt

484
00:25:58.200 --> 00:25:59.680
<v Speaker 1>at one point that she wanted to leave home with

485
00:25:59.759 --> 00:26:01.680
<v Speaker 1>Charlie as soon as she turns seventeen.

486
00:26:02.119 --> 00:26:06.039
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, I mean, just from an outsider, I'm like, oh,

487
00:26:06.279 --> 00:26:10.119
<v Speaker 2>that backfires so often. But that also, like, that's tough.

488
00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:12.480
<v Speaker 1>It's tough to be in that well, you're at that

489
00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:16.640
<v Speaker 1>age where it's a fine line between controlling and parenting.

490
00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:20.920
<v Speaker 1>Sometimes you have to let your child make the decisions

491
00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:22.799
<v Speaker 1>and you have to like let your child make the

492
00:26:23.160 --> 00:26:26.480
<v Speaker 1>mistake and fail and learn from it. Other times, you know,

493
00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:29.680
<v Speaker 1>you do need to help guide them, and there's times

494
00:26:29.680 --> 00:26:33.720
<v Speaker 1>where you're helpless. So it's a very fickle and fine line.

495
00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:37.680
<v Speaker 1>And I to their credit, I think Aaron's parents are

496
00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:39.720
<v Speaker 1>just doing their best. I don't think you're doing anything wrong.

497
00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:44.519
<v Speaker 1>Maybe they're not. They're not succeeding in their parenting, but

498
00:26:44.519 --> 00:26:46.680
<v Speaker 1>they're not doing it wrong. They're trying their best, you know.

499
00:26:46.759 --> 00:26:49.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, it makes sense that they are. But also

500
00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:53.160
<v Speaker 2>just like when you're controlling too much, I feel like

501
00:26:53.920 --> 00:26:56.279
<v Speaker 2>I don't know the kids are going to do what

502
00:26:56.319 --> 00:26:58.640
<v Speaker 2>they're going to do, right, They're going to make it happen.

503
00:26:58.960 --> 00:27:02.440
<v Speaker 1>Oh, definitely. Well, And like, I don't think her parents

504
00:27:02.599 --> 00:27:05.200
<v Speaker 1>are dumb. I think they're aware that they're seeing each

505
00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:07.319
<v Speaker 1>other more at school, that they're sneaking off into the

506
00:27:07.319 --> 00:27:10.119
<v Speaker 1>truck and stuff. Like, I don't think they're morons. Like

507
00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:12.839
<v Speaker 1>most parents know when their child is doing that sort

508
00:27:12.839 --> 00:27:14.759
<v Speaker 1>of stuff. The kids think they're getting away with it,

509
00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:16.680
<v Speaker 1>and no, the parents are letting you get away with it.

510
00:27:16.559 --> 00:27:19.160
<v Speaker 2>It's like the kids forget that their parents were also

511
00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:20.839
<v Speaker 2>that age at one point exactly.

512
00:27:21.079 --> 00:27:24.119
<v Speaker 1>So now things continue to escalate with Aaron and her

513
00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:28.079
<v Speaker 1>parents and evolved into quite a few serious confrontations. For example,

514
00:27:28.160 --> 00:27:31.079
<v Speaker 1>on February two thousand and eight, Penny caught Erin speaking

515
00:27:31.119 --> 00:27:34.240
<v Speaker 1>to Charlie on the phone after the curfew. As a result,

516
00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:37.440
<v Speaker 1>Aarin was grounded, her parents confiscated her phone and her

517
00:27:37.480 --> 00:27:41.319
<v Speaker 1>car keys, and another argument, Erin claimed that Penny actually

518
00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:43.960
<v Speaker 1>struck her. There is no evidence against it. It's just

519
00:27:44.599 --> 00:27:48.440
<v Speaker 1>Aaron's word. But Aarin was as a result in tears

520
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:50.920
<v Speaker 1>and was seeking comfort from Charlie over.

521
00:27:50.799 --> 00:27:53.400
<v Speaker 2>The phone, okay, saying her mom hit her.

522
00:27:53.559 --> 00:27:58.480
<v Speaker 1>Yes, okay. For Charlie though. This situation, this incidant, This

523
00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:03.960
<v Speaker 1>her mother striking her. This was proof that Erin's parents

524
00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:06.880
<v Speaker 1>were a threat to them and their happiness for Aarin

525
00:28:07.079 --> 00:28:09.559
<v Speaker 1>solidified her belief that her parents would of course never

526
00:28:09.640 --> 00:28:12.400
<v Speaker 1>allow her to be with Charlie. So you have mounting

527
00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:17.720
<v Speaker 1>resentment growing now. These restrictions and escalating arguments reached a

528
00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:20.960
<v Speaker 1>boiling point. Anger consumed Erin, and she began to contemplate

529
00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:23.839
<v Speaker 1>a way to remove the obstacles that kept her from Charlie.

530
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:28.279
<v Speaker 1>And those obstacles were, of course, her parents. She began

531
00:28:28.359 --> 00:28:35.000
<v Speaker 1>to obsessively discuss killing her parents with Charlie. Oh shit, yeah,

532
00:28:35.119 --> 00:28:36.920
<v Speaker 1>Aaron believed this was the only way that they could

533
00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:39.839
<v Speaker 1>truly be together. This wasn't just a fleeting thought either.

534
00:28:39.920 --> 00:28:42.960
<v Speaker 1>Aaron mentioned the idea to Charlie repeatedly, both at school

535
00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:45.359
<v Speaker 1>and outside of it. In fact, it was later reported

536
00:28:45.400 --> 00:28:47.880
<v Speaker 1>that a classmate had even overheard her discussing the plan

537
00:28:47.960 --> 00:28:53.400
<v Speaker 1>during a lunch time one day. Oh that is not good,

538
00:28:53.960 --> 00:28:58.839
<v Speaker 1>no now. Charlie, infatuated with Arin, always seemed desperate to

539
00:28:58.960 --> 00:29:01.920
<v Speaker 1>keep her happy. To him, Erin was someone who also

540
00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:04.319
<v Speaker 1>needed saving. She's in a tough situation. You know, her

541
00:29:04.319 --> 00:29:06.720
<v Speaker 1>parents are overbearing. He's got to protect her. He's got

542
00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:10.599
<v Speaker 1>to save her. Right. So, now, after the attack occurred,

543
00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:15.599
<v Speaker 1>police were trying to piece together exactly what happened. Aarin

544
00:29:15.759 --> 00:29:17.880
<v Speaker 1>was found and was immediately treated as a victim and

545
00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:23.359
<v Speaker 1>potentially a kidnapping survivor. They transported her to Hopkins County

546
00:29:23.359 --> 00:29:27.359
<v Speaker 1>Memorial Hospital in Sulfur Springs for evaluation. Here, she was

547
00:29:27.480 --> 00:29:32.680
<v Speaker 1>questioned by police Chief Shanna Sanders. Aaron presented a soft,

548
00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:36.519
<v Speaker 1>spoking and hesitant kind of demeanor and was very offering

549
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:40.240
<v Speaker 1>very little information when pressed about the attack. Erin described

550
00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:43.039
<v Speaker 1>waking up in a smoke filled room where she saw

551
00:29:43.119 --> 00:29:46.759
<v Speaker 1>two men in black wielding samurai swords. They told her

552
00:29:46.759 --> 00:29:48.799
<v Speaker 1>to lie on the floor, but she was unable to

553
00:29:48.839 --> 00:29:50.920
<v Speaker 1>recall how she ended up in the trailer where she

554
00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:54.240
<v Speaker 1>was found. Erin also claimed to have consumed a drink

555
00:29:54.279 --> 00:29:57.000
<v Speaker 1>given to her at the trailer, after which her memory

556
00:29:57.039 --> 00:30:01.000
<v Speaker 1>became blank. As Erin was being just charge from the hospital,

557
00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:04.160
<v Speaker 1>she learned that her father, Terry, had survived the attack,

558
00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:07.039
<v Speaker 1>and while she was being escorted to the ICU in

559
00:30:07.079 --> 00:30:10.559
<v Speaker 1>East Texas Medical Center to visit her father, Aaron's boyfriend

560
00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:15.440
<v Speaker 1>Charlie was now being interrogated, and he quickly became unraveled.

561
00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:21.000
<v Speaker 1>Charlie spilled it all. He admitted to investigators that Aaron

562
00:30:21.079 --> 00:30:24.000
<v Speaker 1>had called him the day before the murders, furious with

563
00:30:24.039 --> 00:30:26.839
<v Speaker 1>her parents for forbidding her from seeing him, and during

564
00:30:26.920 --> 00:30:29.839
<v Speaker 1>this conversation, Aaron expressed her desire for her parents to

565
00:30:29.960 --> 00:30:33.160
<v Speaker 1>be killed, stating that she saw no other way that

566
00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:36.920
<v Speaker 1>the couple could be together. At first, Charlie framed himself

567
00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:40.240
<v Speaker 1>as a reluctant participant, but as the interrogation continued, he

568
00:30:40.279 --> 00:30:43.359
<v Speaker 1>revealed that Erin had been speaking openly about wanting her

569
00:30:43.359 --> 00:30:46.839
<v Speaker 1>parents dead to both him and others for a whileness

570
00:30:46.839 --> 00:30:47.559
<v Speaker 1>for some time.

571
00:30:47.680 --> 00:30:48.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

572
00:30:48.680 --> 00:30:53.960
<v Speaker 1>Charlie also revealed an accomplice, Charles Wade. We'll call him

573
00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:59.359
<v Speaker 1>Wade for not getting confused, because we have Charles and Charlie.

574
00:30:59.400 --> 00:31:01.559
<v Speaker 1>So it's going to be Charlie and his friend Wade

575
00:31:01.599 --> 00:31:03.559
<v Speaker 1>from here and O confusion.

576
00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:07.720
<v Speaker 2>Where it was like he was at the trailer or whatever,

577
00:31:08.480 --> 00:31:09.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean he was found.

578
00:31:09.519 --> 00:31:11.599
<v Speaker 1>Actually, it's a good question. Now I'm gonna go back

579
00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:14.119
<v Speaker 1>a double check. Okay, So I had to pause and

580
00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:17.599
<v Speaker 1>do a little fact check moment there. The trailer was

581
00:31:17.759 --> 00:31:21.119
<v Speaker 1>belonging to the Wade family. I said it was Matthew

582
00:31:21.160 --> 00:31:25.440
<v Speaker 1>Wade earlier. Matthew Wade is Charles Wade's younger brother. So

583
00:31:25.519 --> 00:31:28.319
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if I don't know who owns it,

584
00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:31.880
<v Speaker 1>but it belongs to one of the Wade family members. Okay,

585
00:31:31.960 --> 00:31:35.279
<v Speaker 1>so yes, it was his trailer. I don't know.

586
00:31:35.400 --> 00:31:37.960
<v Speaker 2>Well he lived there probably, yeah, yeah, he lived there.

587
00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:44.000
<v Speaker 1>But who actually owned it, I'm uncertain. So Charlie revealed

588
00:31:44.279 --> 00:31:48.799
<v Speaker 1>Wade as an accomplice along with his girlfriend Bobby Johnson.

589
00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:52.079
<v Speaker 1>So Wade's girlfriend Bobby reportedly they all drove to the

590
00:31:52.119 --> 00:31:55.079
<v Speaker 1>Caffe residence with their intent to carry out a carefully

591
00:31:55.160 --> 00:31:59.000
<v Speaker 1>planned attack. Charlie even offered Wade two thousand dollars as

592
00:31:59.079 --> 00:32:02.240
<v Speaker 1>payment for assisting murders, and he planned on getting this

593
00:32:02.279 --> 00:32:04.759
<v Speaker 1>two thousand dollars from the safe within the Kaffee house

594
00:32:04.839 --> 00:32:07.960
<v Speaker 1>after they committed the crime as well. So he's like,

595
00:32:08.039 --> 00:32:10.240
<v Speaker 1>we're going to get in there, kill them all, open

596
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:12.240
<v Speaker 1>the safe you can have the money, which is two

597
00:32:12.279 --> 00:32:12.920
<v Speaker 1>grand from it.

598
00:32:13.079 --> 00:32:15.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, which for like a younger person is like,

599
00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:17.640
<v Speaker 2>holy shit, that's probably like a lot of money.

600
00:32:17.480 --> 00:32:19.640
<v Speaker 1>Right yeah, And this is two thousand and eight as well, right,

601
00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:22.319
<v Speaker 1>so it carries a little bit more weight to it now.

602
00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:26.400
<v Speaker 1>According to Charlie, Bobby drove the silver Dodge Neon, which

603
00:32:26.480 --> 00:32:29.440
<v Speaker 1>was the vehicle they used, and insisted on coming along,

604
00:32:29.839 --> 00:32:32.160
<v Speaker 1>although he claimed she was unaware of the violent nature

605
00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:35.000
<v Speaker 1>of the plans that were actually gonna unfold now. The

606
00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:38.799
<v Speaker 1>group's first attempt to approach the Kafee home failed when

607
00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:41.920
<v Speaker 1>the family dog began barking. Aaron then called Charlie on

608
00:32:41.960 --> 00:32:44.720
<v Speaker 1>his phone, reassuring that she would quiet the dog for

609
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:48.200
<v Speaker 1>when they returned, so the group drove back with the

610
00:32:48.240 --> 00:32:50.839
<v Speaker 1>dog quiet. This time. They picked up Aaron at the

611
00:32:50.920 --> 00:32:53.839
<v Speaker 1>end of the driveway and spent the next hour driving

612
00:32:53.880 --> 00:32:56.000
<v Speaker 1>around discussing their plan in detail.

613
00:32:56.359 --> 00:32:57.759
<v Speaker 2>Oh gosh.

614
00:32:57.920 --> 00:33:01.279
<v Speaker 1>According to Charlie's later confession, he heatedly tried to persuade

615
00:33:01.400 --> 00:33:04.359
<v Speaker 1>Erin to consider running away instead, but she.

616
00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:06.680
<v Speaker 2>Refused, that's a way better plan.

617
00:33:07.240 --> 00:33:10.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Actually there was a point where he even I

618
00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:12.519
<v Speaker 1>didn't include this in here, but it's a good time

619
00:33:12.519 --> 00:33:15.039
<v Speaker 1>to actually talk about it. At one point he thought like, well,

620
00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:18.400
<v Speaker 1>what if we get you pregnant and then you have, like,

621
00:33:18.519 --> 00:33:20.400
<v Speaker 1>we have a kid together, then your parents will have

622
00:33:20.440 --> 00:33:23.559
<v Speaker 1>to let us be together, right, But she was like, yeah, no.

623
00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:25.640
<v Speaker 2>That's honestly even a better plan.

624
00:33:27.279 --> 00:33:30.160
<v Speaker 1>And murdering an entire family, yes, it is, it is,

625
00:33:30.359 --> 00:33:33.400
<v Speaker 1>it is. Yeah, but yeah, she didn't want that, She

626
00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:36.240
<v Speaker 1>didn't want to run away. Her plan was no, kill them.

627
00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:38.599
<v Speaker 2>Well does she not realize what the fuck is going

628
00:33:38.680 --> 00:33:39.960
<v Speaker 2>to happen after that? But okay?

629
00:33:40.200 --> 00:33:44.039
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Now. Eventually the trio returned the Kaffee home and

630
00:33:44.160 --> 00:33:47.480
<v Speaker 1>finalized their plan. Charlie and Wade were to carry out

631
00:33:47.480 --> 00:33:50.200
<v Speaker 1>the murders while Aaron and Bobby waited in the car.

632
00:33:51.039 --> 00:33:53.279
<v Speaker 1>So the two men armed with a twenty two caliber

633
00:33:53.279 --> 00:33:58.160
<v Speaker 1>pistol and two samurai swords, they entered the home. Charlie

634
00:33:58.160 --> 00:34:01.720
<v Speaker 1>headed directly to Terrrian Penny's penn room on the first floor.

635
00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:05.799
<v Speaker 1>He went in and opened fire on the sleeping couple,

636
00:34:06.440 --> 00:34:09.840
<v Speaker 1>but halfway through, his pistol jammed after a few shots,

637
00:34:10.360 --> 00:34:14.199
<v Speaker 1>and this is when Terry recalls hearing the gun reloading. Yep.

638
00:34:14.599 --> 00:34:17.400
<v Speaker 1>Wade quickly fixed it and fired an additional two more

639
00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:21.079
<v Speaker 1>shots to ensure Penny was dead. Charlie slid her throat

640
00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:25.719
<v Speaker 1>before moving on, oh Man. Charlie then went upstairs to

641
00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:30.960
<v Speaker 1>the young boys Matthew and Tyler, and Matthew bravely attempted

642
00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:33.480
<v Speaker 1>to defend himself, kicking at Charlie as he approached, and

643
00:34:33.519 --> 00:34:36.000
<v Speaker 1>in response, Wade shot him in the face.

644
00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:39.119
<v Speaker 2>Gosh, what the fuck did these two young boys do?

645
00:34:39.639 --> 00:34:43.639
<v Speaker 1>Nothing that's unreal. Yeah. Wade then turned his attention to

646
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:47.440
<v Speaker 1>Tyler and repeatedly stabbed Tyler until the younger boy, sorry,

647
00:34:47.480 --> 00:34:50.559
<v Speaker 1>till the young boy no longer moved. The group then

648
00:34:50.599 --> 00:34:53.599
<v Speaker 1>focused on covering their tracks. They retrieved a suitcase Aaron

649
00:34:53.639 --> 00:34:57.239
<v Speaker 1>had already packed earlier, filled with her belongings, with Aaron

650
00:34:57.880 --> 00:35:03.440
<v Speaker 1>saying after they escaped the house, I'm so glad it's over. Next,

651
00:35:03.519 --> 00:35:06.719
<v Speaker 1>Charlie and Wade located a lock box and mentioned using

652
00:35:06.760 --> 00:35:11.159
<v Speaker 1>a combination that was provided by erin Okay. They opened

653
00:35:11.199 --> 00:35:13.880
<v Speaker 1>the box, took three hundred and seventy five dollars in

654
00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:17.639
<v Speaker 1>cash and some change, and some items, including Terry's wallet

655
00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:20.599
<v Speaker 1>and Penny's purse. They took the money, helping that this

656
00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:27.960
<v Speaker 1>might obscure the motive the what's the motivation motive? Motive? Yeah, yeah,

657
00:35:28.119 --> 00:35:30.280
<v Speaker 1>obscuring the motive behind the assault.

658
00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:31.639
<v Speaker 2>That it was like a robbery.

659
00:35:31.800 --> 00:35:34.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So to destroy any evidence, they set fire to

660
00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:37.000
<v Speaker 1>the house using a lighter, igniting furniture clothes and bed

661
00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:40.480
<v Speaker 1>sheets on their way out. In the hours following the

662
00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:43.719
<v Speaker 1>brutal attack, the four murderers drove aimlessly along rural roads,

663
00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:46.960
<v Speaker 1>attempting to gather their composure after the violence that they

664
00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:50.880
<v Speaker 1>just unleashed. Wade eventually dropped Charlie and Aaron off the trailer,

665
00:35:51.079 --> 00:35:54.440
<v Speaker 1>where the couple spent the night together. Law enforcement quickly

666
00:35:54.440 --> 00:35:59.199
<v Speaker 1>made significant process in unraveling the case. Aaron's toxology report,

667
00:35:59.239 --> 00:36:02.760
<v Speaker 1>for example, came back negative, ruling out the possibility that

668
00:36:02.800 --> 00:36:05.679
<v Speaker 1>she had been drugged or coerced in any sort of substances,

669
00:36:05.719 --> 00:36:08.320
<v Speaker 1>because remember she claimed to have drunk something and then

670
00:36:08.320 --> 00:36:09.599
<v Speaker 1>doesn't remember anything after that.

671
00:36:09.880 --> 00:36:10.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

672
00:36:10.599 --> 00:36:13.880
<v Speaker 1>Additionally, there were no traces of smoke inhalation in her lungs,

673
00:36:13.960 --> 00:36:17.800
<v Speaker 1>and she didn't smell like smoke, clothes, nothing, no smoke

674
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:20.440
<v Speaker 1>whatsoever if she was in a smoke filled home when

675
00:36:20.440 --> 00:36:27.079
<v Speaker 1>she saw two sword wielding figures. Yeah, so those two

676
00:36:27.079 --> 00:36:31.519
<v Speaker 1>both contradictally are drastically contradictory story. Bobby and Wade were

677
00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:35.280
<v Speaker 1>both soon arrested as well, and corroborated Charlie's story entirely.

678
00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:39.440
<v Speaker 1>Wade even told officers about how Aaron exclaimed quote holy crap,

679
00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:42.960
<v Speaker 1>that's awesome. As they drove away from the burning home.

680
00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:48.679
<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh. And then when oh, okay, that doesn't

681
00:36:48.679 --> 00:36:50.920
<v Speaker 2>make any sense. And then when she's found though, she's

682
00:36:51.119 --> 00:36:54.760
<v Speaker 2>all of a sudden this like little innocent thing victim.

683
00:36:54.880 --> 00:36:56.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, she's playing victim.

684
00:36:57.039 --> 00:36:57.400
<v Speaker 2>Wow.

685
00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:01.440
<v Speaker 1>Now, as interrogations unfolded, Aaron was of course arrested and

686
00:37:01.480 --> 00:37:05.440
<v Speaker 1>transported to the juvenile detention center, and it was in

687
00:37:05.480 --> 00:37:07.920
<v Speaker 1>Greenville where she was being held where she was formally

688
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:11.960
<v Speaker 1>charged with capital murder. Meanwhile, her father, Terry Caffey, was

689
00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:15.400
<v Speaker 1>recovering from his wounds five gunshot wounds, be specific, which

690
00:37:15.400 --> 00:37:18.880
<v Speaker 1>included a broken nose, fractured cheekbones, and nerve damage. He

691
00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:22.280
<v Speaker 1>was informed that his daughter Erin had survived the attack.

692
00:37:23.599 --> 00:37:26.559
<v Speaker 1>That happiness, though, was soon shattered when he learned that

693
00:37:26.599 --> 00:37:29.079
<v Speaker 1>she was arrested for the involvement in the murders.

694
00:37:29.519 --> 00:37:31.559
<v Speaker 2>I just had to take like a deep breath there,

695
00:37:31.639 --> 00:37:37.559
<v Speaker 2>because that poor father, Oh man, I cannot even begin

696
00:37:37.639 --> 00:37:42.320
<v Speaker 2>to fathom like his life going forward, you know. Yeah,

697
00:37:43.239 --> 00:37:43.880
<v Speaker 2>holy shit.

698
00:37:44.199 --> 00:37:47.679
<v Speaker 1>We'll talk about that in a bit, Okay. Now, the

699
00:37:47.679 --> 00:37:51.039
<v Speaker 1>investigators who arrest Erin were quickly making progress on the

700
00:37:51.079 --> 00:37:54.480
<v Speaker 1>evidence against her for example, Aaron's phone records, which became

701
00:37:54.519 --> 00:37:58.039
<v Speaker 1>a cornerstone of the prosecution case, soon came in. The

702
00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:01.960
<v Speaker 1>phone log revealed between nine or sorry eleven forty six

703
00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:06.559
<v Speaker 1>pm and twelve forty eight pm, Aaron called Charlie six

704
00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:09.199
<v Speaker 1>times from inside her home and this was the night

705
00:38:09.239 --> 00:38:12.159
<v Speaker 1>of the murder. Even more damning, there were seven calls

706
00:38:12.199 --> 00:38:15.000
<v Speaker 1>she made between one twenty two am and one fifty

707
00:38:15.079 --> 00:38:19.119
<v Speaker 1>eight am, during which she repeatedly asked Charlie where he

708
00:38:19.239 --> 00:38:21.559
<v Speaker 1>was and promised to keep the family dog quiet so

709
00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:26.760
<v Speaker 1>they could proceed. These records aligned perfectly with Charlie's confession

710
00:38:27.079 --> 00:38:31.320
<v Speaker 1>and painted Erin as a driving force behind the crime. However,

711
00:38:31.480 --> 00:38:35.119
<v Speaker 1>Aaron claimed she was planning on running away that night,

712
00:38:35.840 --> 00:38:38.719
<v Speaker 1>but changed her mind at the last minute. She insisted

713
00:38:38.719 --> 00:38:41.199
<v Speaker 1>that her calls to Charlie were meant to prevent him

714
00:38:41.199 --> 00:38:44.400
<v Speaker 1>from coming to the house. Whatsoever, both the timeline and

715
00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:46.800
<v Speaker 1>her actions seemed to suggest otherwise.

716
00:38:47.639 --> 00:38:51.719
<v Speaker 3>Gosh, she's like just evil, Hey, I feel like whoa

717
00:38:52.320 --> 00:38:55.079
<v Speaker 3>Erin also told a mental health counselor that Charlie had

718
00:38:55.119 --> 00:38:59.760
<v Speaker 3>acted alone, motivated motivated by anger after she ended their

719
00:38:59.880 --> 00:39:03.360
<v Speaker 3>life relationship, and she painted herself as a victim of

720
00:39:03.480 --> 00:39:04.320
<v Speaker 3>Charlie's violence.

721
00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:09.199
<v Speaker 1>So when we discuss that, the family was like you

722
00:39:09.239 --> 00:39:12.760
<v Speaker 1>need to end the relationship sort of thing, like, yeah,

723
00:39:12.800 --> 00:39:14.599
<v Speaker 1>that's what she's saying, is like, we ended it and

724
00:39:14.679 --> 00:39:16.760
<v Speaker 1>he's retaliating because I ended it.

725
00:39:18.039 --> 00:39:19.199
<v Speaker 2>Wow, that's shocking.

726
00:39:19.480 --> 00:39:22.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Now, in November of two thousand and eight, all

727
00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:25.519
<v Speaker 1>four of the defendants pleaded guilty two three counts of

728
00:39:25.519 --> 00:39:29.719
<v Speaker 1>capital murder. So yes, Aaron is pleading guilty. During the

729
00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:33.639
<v Speaker 1>January sentence hearing, Terry addressed each of them directly. Terry

730
00:39:33.880 --> 00:39:38.440
<v Speaker 1>is Erin's dad, right for one. Turning to Charlie, who

731
00:39:38.559 --> 00:39:42.199
<v Speaker 1>was in tears at the time, Terry said, quote, I

732
00:39:42.280 --> 00:39:44.800
<v Speaker 1>forgive you, not so much for your sake, but for

733
00:39:44.920 --> 00:39:47.639
<v Speaker 1>my own. Oh man, I refuse to grow into a

734
00:39:47.639 --> 00:39:50.159
<v Speaker 1>bitter old man. If I want to heal and move on,

735
00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:53.159
<v Speaker 1>I must find some forgiveness in my heart. That has

736
00:39:53.199 --> 00:39:55.199
<v Speaker 1>been the hardest thing I have ever had to do,

737
00:39:55.280 --> 00:39:56.760
<v Speaker 1>because you took so much from.

738
00:39:56.639 --> 00:40:00.000
<v Speaker 2>Me that gave me instant goosebumps.

739
00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:05.239
<v Speaker 1>Right wow. Bobby, who pleaded guilty to being an accomplice,

740
00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:08.760
<v Speaker 1>received forty years in jail. However, she is eligible for

741
00:40:08.800 --> 00:40:11.719
<v Speaker 1>parole in March of twenty twenty eight, leaving open the

742
00:40:11.719 --> 00:40:17.159
<v Speaker 1>possibility for an earlier release. Charlie and Wade both pled

743
00:40:17.199 --> 00:40:20.639
<v Speaker 1>guilty to their sentences to life in prison without the

744
00:40:20.679 --> 00:40:24.760
<v Speaker 1>possibility of parole. Aaron Caffey, whose role in orchestrating the

745
00:40:24.840 --> 00:40:28.480
<v Speaker 1>murders remained a point of contention, which again we'll kind

746
00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:31.320
<v Speaker 1>of discuss at the end, pleaded guilty and was sentenced

747
00:40:31.360 --> 00:40:35.199
<v Speaker 1>to two concurrent life sentences with an additional twenty five years.

748
00:40:35.599 --> 00:40:38.239
<v Speaker 1>She will be eligible for parole in twenty thirty eight,

749
00:40:38.920 --> 00:40:42.199
<v Speaker 1>when she will be in her late fifties. Her father,

750
00:40:42.360 --> 00:40:45.480
<v Speaker 1>Terry Caffey, has expressed a hope and prayer that he

751
00:40:45.519 --> 00:40:48.360
<v Speaker 1>will live long enough to see her walk out of prison.

752
00:40:49.000 --> 00:40:52.559
<v Speaker 1>Really quote, I want to go get erin. I want

753
00:40:52.639 --> 00:40:56.000
<v Speaker 1>us to walk away arm in arm and never look back.

754
00:40:56.440 --> 00:40:58.239
<v Speaker 2>Oh man.

755
00:40:58.440 --> 00:41:00.360
<v Speaker 1>So when I said Terry is the bad as of

756
00:41:00.440 --> 00:41:05.719
<v Speaker 1>the day, this is another reason why he instantly forgave

757
00:41:05.760 --> 00:41:08.920
<v Speaker 1>his daughter. He visits her in prison, he visits her,

758
00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:10.840
<v Speaker 1>he writes her, he visits her.

759
00:41:11.239 --> 00:41:16.880
<v Speaker 2>Yes, holy shit, I'm flabbergasted. Yeah, because I don't know.

760
00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:19.960
<v Speaker 2>Maybe she's like has some remorse. It doesn't seem like

761
00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:22.599
<v Speaker 2>it yet, but maybe she has shown that. But like

762
00:41:22.639 --> 00:41:27.079
<v Speaker 2>I also, I feel like Charlie like had remorse, you know, yeah,

763
00:41:27.119 --> 00:41:30.840
<v Speaker 2>which it's be easier to forgive someone for that, but

764
00:41:31.800 --> 00:41:37.199
<v Speaker 2>oh man, like she killed her own brothers. Basically yeah,

765
00:41:37.320 --> 00:41:38.719
<v Speaker 2>so now kay on that.

766
00:41:38.719 --> 00:41:40.920
<v Speaker 1>Topic, this case has actually been featured on like several

767
00:41:40.920 --> 00:41:44.440
<v Speaker 1>different platforms like Doctor Phil interviewed her, It's been on

768
00:41:44.519 --> 00:41:48.239
<v Speaker 1>A and E. I Survive Pierce Morgan Killer Women has

769
00:41:48.280 --> 00:41:50.960
<v Speaker 1>covered it as well. Doctor Phil interviews her and he

770
00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:53.880
<v Speaker 1>actually asked her that question, what about your brothers? Didn't

771
00:41:53.880 --> 00:41:56.480
<v Speaker 1>you think about them? And she says, no, I didn't.

772
00:41:57.599 --> 00:42:01.760
<v Speaker 1>Because she maintains that she did not take part in this.

773
00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:05.000
<v Speaker 1>She maintains she was planning to run away, tried to

774
00:42:05.039 --> 00:42:07.920
<v Speaker 1>stop Charlie from showing up to the house, and he

775
00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:11.639
<v Speaker 1>did it on his own free will without her. She

776
00:42:11.840 --> 00:42:15.280
<v Speaker 1>maintains all of that. All she says is like, yeah,

777
00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:17.400
<v Speaker 1>you know, I kind of talked about it, like just like,

778
00:42:18.159 --> 00:42:22.199
<v Speaker 1>ah should kill parents, but I never actually meant to really.

779
00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:25.800
<v Speaker 2>But then the other three their stories is completely the.

780
00:42:25.760 --> 00:42:29.719
<v Speaker 1>Same, exactly. Not only that anything she claims there's not

781
00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:32.360
<v Speaker 1>evidence for it, right, she claims to have been in

782
00:42:32.400 --> 00:42:34.840
<v Speaker 1>the house, there's no smoke inhalation, she claims to have

783
00:42:34.840 --> 00:42:37.280
<v Speaker 1>been drug. There's no toxicology or sorry, nothing in your

784
00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:39.400
<v Speaker 1>system with the report that came up with the toxicology

785
00:42:39.400 --> 00:42:40.599
<v Speaker 1>report nothing.

786
00:42:41.360 --> 00:42:45.440
<v Speaker 2>Huh. Well, I think that she didn't. She didn't step

787
00:42:45.480 --> 00:42:48.480
<v Speaker 2>back and think about like the outcome of all this though,

788
00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:51.880
<v Speaker 2>and now she's just sticking to this story.

789
00:42:51.920 --> 00:42:57.320
<v Speaker 1>I guess, right, Yeah, ignorance is bliss, they say, right, yeah,

790
00:42:57.360 --> 00:43:00.559
<v Speaker 1>So one of the central debates revolves around her level

791
00:43:00.679 --> 00:43:02.360
<v Speaker 1>of involvement in this. So that's why I said, there's

792
00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:04.599
<v Speaker 1>kind of like at the beginning, there's two sides to this, right,

793
00:43:05.360 --> 00:43:07.559
<v Speaker 1>was she the mastermind behind the whole murder? Did she

794
00:43:07.599 --> 00:43:09.800
<v Speaker 1>manipulate the others to carry out this plan? Or was

795
00:43:09.840 --> 00:43:14.159
<v Speaker 1>she just naive, emotional and overwhelmed and was swept up

796
00:43:14.199 --> 00:43:18.920
<v Speaker 1>in this by Charlie orchestrating it and doing it. Aaron

797
00:43:19.039 --> 00:43:22.079
<v Speaker 1>just claims she was planning to run away but and

798
00:43:22.119 --> 00:43:24.119
<v Speaker 1>says it wasn't her.

799
00:43:24.920 --> 00:43:25.960
<v Speaker 2>Huh.

800
00:43:26.079 --> 00:43:29.480
<v Speaker 1>Now, there is a lot more to her claims than

801
00:43:29.480 --> 00:43:32.840
<v Speaker 1>when I covered. I chose not to talk about it

802
00:43:32.880 --> 00:43:35.760
<v Speaker 1>because I don't want to give her a bigger voice

803
00:43:36.199 --> 00:43:41.599
<v Speaker 1>because most of what she's spewing is bullshit. Even if

804
00:43:41.599 --> 00:43:43.639
<v Speaker 1>you watch like the interview, like I watched the interviews

805
00:43:43.719 --> 00:43:48.119
<v Speaker 1>with her and doctor Phil. She's a fucking child, and

806
00:43:48.320 --> 00:43:52.320
<v Speaker 1>there's it's like she's like fake crying at times, almost

807
00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:55.239
<v Speaker 1>like she does not look remorseful. He's at like your

808
00:43:55.320 --> 00:43:59.400
<v Speaker 1>fucking parent, your mother died, and she's like answering questions

809
00:43:59.400 --> 00:44:00.599
<v Speaker 1>straight flat out out about it.

810
00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:04.159
<v Speaker 2>I feel like I have watched bits of that or

811
00:44:04.159 --> 00:44:07.079
<v Speaker 2>something like parts of this are semi familiar to me.

812
00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:10.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, well it's a fucked up case, that's all

813
00:44:10.840 --> 00:44:14.159
<v Speaker 1>I know. Because she's just like, well, can have a

814
00:44:14.199 --> 00:44:16.880
<v Speaker 1>relationship with this guy, so parents got to die. And

815
00:44:16.920 --> 00:44:19.239
<v Speaker 1>then when she carries it out and convinces him, she

816
00:44:19.280 --> 00:44:24.119
<v Speaker 1>fucking abandons him. So that tells how much did she

817
00:44:24.159 --> 00:44:26.199
<v Speaker 1>fucking care for him in the first place too? Have

818
00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:29.239
<v Speaker 1>her parents killed and abandon him.

819
00:44:29.119 --> 00:44:31.440
<v Speaker 2>Because she was It kind of shows that she was

820
00:44:31.480 --> 00:44:32.119
<v Speaker 2>just using.

821
00:44:32.039 --> 00:44:35.039
<v Speaker 1>Him, Yeah, but for what? Using him for what?

822
00:44:35.880 --> 00:44:39.960
<v Speaker 2>To get rid of her parents? But then she did

823
00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:41.119
<v Speaker 2>also like him, so.

824
00:44:41.360 --> 00:44:43.000
<v Speaker 1>She wanted to get rid of her parents so she

825
00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:45.440
<v Speaker 1>could have him. So she's using him to get rid

826
00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:46.440
<v Speaker 1>of her parents now.

827
00:44:46.400 --> 00:44:48.719
<v Speaker 2>Wants nothing to do like, I don't know, it's very

828
00:44:48.719 --> 00:44:50.119
<v Speaker 2>it is very confusing.

829
00:44:49.800 --> 00:44:54.199
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it is. She has she's gained literally nothing. If

830
00:44:54.199 --> 00:44:56.320
<v Speaker 1>she was doing it to gain something, you'd think she'd

831
00:44:56.320 --> 00:44:58.000
<v Speaker 1>stick to her guns and gain that thing.

832
00:44:58.559 --> 00:44:59.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

833
00:44:59.599 --> 00:45:01.480
<v Speaker 1>Maybe, like maybe she could be like, you know, I

834
00:45:01.519 --> 00:45:03.719
<v Speaker 1>still love Charlie. You know, maybe we can like fix

835
00:45:03.760 --> 00:45:05.239
<v Speaker 1>this and me get out. You know, I talk to him,

836
00:45:05.239 --> 00:45:08.639
<v Speaker 1>I write to him something, because you're supposed to fucking

837
00:45:08.679 --> 00:45:11.679
<v Speaker 1>love this guy. You killed your parents and brothers for him.

838
00:45:11.960 --> 00:45:14.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well made him, you made him do it, do it.

839
00:45:15.079 --> 00:45:16.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and now you're pinning it all on him, Like

840
00:45:16.960 --> 00:45:19.400
<v Speaker 1>what the fuck, you cold bitch.

841
00:45:21.679 --> 00:45:23.199
<v Speaker 2>That's on it real nicely.

842
00:45:23.440 --> 00:45:30.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it is putting it real fucking nice, you cold bitch. Yeah. Sorry,

843
00:45:30.920 --> 00:45:32.000
<v Speaker 1>oh man.

844
00:45:32.840 --> 00:45:35.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this is it's a lot to just take in

845
00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:38.599
<v Speaker 2>because it's just so mind blowing.

846
00:45:38.760 --> 00:45:41.039
<v Speaker 1>That someone would go to that length and do that.

847
00:45:41.400 --> 00:45:41.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

848
00:45:42.039 --> 00:45:42.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

849
00:45:42.440 --> 00:45:45.039
<v Speaker 2>And also I just cannot stop thinking about the dad.

850
00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:49.480
<v Speaker 2>I know, Like what a complete like just living angel

851
00:45:49.559 --> 00:45:51.639
<v Speaker 2>I feel right, gosh, he.

852
00:45:51.679 --> 00:45:54.000
<v Speaker 1>Wants to walk out arm in arm with his daughter

853
00:45:54.039 --> 00:45:58.440
<v Speaker 1>when she's released. She's responsible for the death of his wife, yeah,

854
00:45:58.480 --> 00:46:00.159
<v Speaker 1>his two younger sons.

855
00:46:00.199 --> 00:46:02.800
<v Speaker 2>Like she destroyed his whole life.

856
00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:08.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, she fucking had him shot five times, and he's

857
00:46:08.119 --> 00:46:11.159
<v Speaker 1>reaching out a hand to help her like, Wow.

858
00:46:11.079 --> 00:46:15.360
<v Speaker 2>Whoa, Yeah, that is just incredible.

859
00:46:14.880 --> 00:46:18.239
<v Speaker 1>Right, what kind of selfless human being is that? Like? Incredible?

860
00:46:18.280 --> 00:46:21.400
<v Speaker 1>How can this bitch come from someone like that?

861
00:46:22.079 --> 00:46:24.199
<v Speaker 2>This cold bitch, this cold bitch.

862
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:27.599
<v Speaker 1>My coffee's cold and it's still warmer than she is.

863
00:46:27.840 --> 00:46:31.159
<v Speaker 2>Oh, man, I know I shouldn't be laughing about that.

864
00:46:31.360 --> 00:46:32.519
<v Speaker 2>It's just how you worded it.

865
00:46:32.519 --> 00:46:34.480
<v Speaker 1>It was just like she is a cold bitch.

866
00:46:34.840 --> 00:46:37.159
<v Speaker 2>Well, and it's hard to understand too. Why the fuck

867
00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:39.519
<v Speaker 2>her brothers needed to be involved in this, right, Like

868
00:46:40.599 --> 00:46:43.000
<v Speaker 2>she had her beef was with our parents, So why

869
00:46:43.039 --> 00:46:46.199
<v Speaker 2>the fuck is she also killing her brothers?

870
00:46:46.679 --> 00:46:46.920
<v Speaker 1>Right?

871
00:46:47.000 --> 00:46:47.920
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't make sense.

872
00:46:48.039 --> 00:46:52.719
<v Speaker 1>It doesn't. I if I'm going to assume and play

873
00:46:52.760 --> 00:46:55.199
<v Speaker 1>a devil's advocate role here and say what makes the

874
00:46:55.239 --> 00:46:57.199
<v Speaker 1>most sense, not that it makes sense, it makes the

875
00:46:57.199 --> 00:47:01.840
<v Speaker 1>most sense, is paint the picture of family got slaughtered,

876
00:47:02.199 --> 00:47:05.159
<v Speaker 1>she got kidnapped, You never find me, They run away,

877
00:47:05.199 --> 00:47:07.199
<v Speaker 1>fucking go live in Mexico and she's a missing person

878
00:47:07.199 --> 00:47:08.559
<v Speaker 1>for the rest of her life and lives under a

879
00:47:08.599 --> 00:47:10.760
<v Speaker 1>new identity. But I don't think she had it planned

880
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:14.440
<v Speaker 1>out that far. No, I don't think she had it

881
00:47:14.480 --> 00:47:17.519
<v Speaker 1>planned out past the next fucking two hours. No, oh,

882
00:47:17.559 --> 00:47:19.320
<v Speaker 1>which I do have to say. And this is something

883
00:47:19.360 --> 00:47:24.280
<v Speaker 1>that they that she admits. She admits this happens. So

884
00:47:24.320 --> 00:47:27.239
<v Speaker 1>her and Charlie after murdering the family and they get

885
00:47:27.280 --> 00:47:29.719
<v Speaker 1>dropped off of that trailer. Yeah, they fucked that night.

886
00:47:29.880 --> 00:47:30.639
<v Speaker 2>Oh god.

887
00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:35.440
<v Speaker 1>Okay, yeah, her family just got slaughtered and she fucks

888
00:47:35.440 --> 00:47:36.000
<v Speaker 1>her boyfriend.

889
00:47:38.920 --> 00:47:44.000
<v Speaker 2>Okay, that is so disturbing. That's so disturbing.

890
00:47:44.079 --> 00:47:45.880
<v Speaker 1>But when doctor Phil asked her about it, she's like, well,

891
00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:49.840
<v Speaker 1>I didn't enjoy it. Oh man, like almost like pinning

892
00:47:49.880 --> 00:47:51.599
<v Speaker 1>it on him, like he kind of raped her.

893
00:47:51.599 --> 00:47:54.320
<v Speaker 2>All yeah, yeah, he's pinning more shit on him exactly.

894
00:47:54.480 --> 00:47:57.360
<v Speaker 1>She doesn't say he raped her. She says they have sex,

895
00:47:57.400 --> 00:47:59.880
<v Speaker 1>but she's like, I didn't enjoy it.

896
00:48:01.719 --> 00:48:03.519
<v Speaker 2>That just seems like kind of just like a piece

897
00:48:03.519 --> 00:48:04.760
<v Speaker 2>of garbage person.

898
00:48:04.519 --> 00:48:08.559
<v Speaker 1>I know. Huh Okay, So it just.

899
00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:10.519
<v Speaker 2>Do on that for a while. So there are people

900
00:48:10.760 --> 00:48:13.920
<v Speaker 2>who think that she actually wasn't involved? Is that the thing?

901
00:48:14.559 --> 00:48:17.760
<v Speaker 1>There are some Yeah, I mean most people don't. It

902
00:48:17.800 --> 00:48:20.039
<v Speaker 1>comes down to, like, fuck, what's that one chick who

903
00:48:20.559 --> 00:48:22.960
<v Speaker 1>was We talked about her in that documentary like a

904
00:48:23.000 --> 00:48:23.960
<v Speaker 1>year a couple of years ago.

905
00:48:25.519 --> 00:48:30.760
<v Speaker 2>Kate, do you think Casey? Yes, yes, she believes her.

906
00:48:32.039 --> 00:48:37.599
<v Speaker 1>No, like, there's people who believe she's fucking in Casey Anthony.

907
00:48:37.719 --> 00:48:41.079
<v Speaker 2>Okay, I was like, Casey fucking Anthony believes her? Like, no,

908
00:48:41.360 --> 00:48:42.440
<v Speaker 2>go fuck yourself.

909
00:48:44.360 --> 00:48:47.159
<v Speaker 1>What I'm trying to say is, majority of people think

910
00:48:47.239 --> 00:48:50.880
<v Speaker 1>Casey Anthony is guilty, right, Yeah, majority of people think

911
00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:55.039
<v Speaker 1>Aaron Caffey is guilty. But there are some who think otherwise,

912
00:48:55.199 --> 00:48:57.400
<v Speaker 1>just like some otherwise on Casey's case.

913
00:48:57.519 --> 00:49:00.639
<v Speaker 2>Okay, my brain just exploded there minute.

914
00:49:00.840 --> 00:49:02.760
<v Speaker 1>You know, if Casey Anthony's on your side, you know

915
00:49:02.800 --> 00:49:04.880
<v Speaker 1>you've done for kidding.

916
00:49:05.960 --> 00:49:07.360
<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh.

917
00:49:07.360 --> 00:49:11.280
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, that's the story of the Kaffe family massacre.

918
00:49:12.440 --> 00:49:13.320
<v Speaker 2>It's heart wrenching.

919
00:49:13.679 --> 00:49:16.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you should watch the Doctor Phil interviews with her.

920
00:49:18.159 --> 00:49:21.119
<v Speaker 1>It's honestly, in my opinion, she's disgusting.

921
00:49:21.440 --> 00:49:23.719
<v Speaker 2>It's disturbing, isn't it. Like do you actually think that

922
00:49:23.760 --> 00:49:24.599
<v Speaker 2>we should watch that.

923
00:49:26.320 --> 00:49:28.519
<v Speaker 1>If you have a morbid curiosity for it? Sure, but

924
00:49:28.800 --> 00:49:31.079
<v Speaker 1>I don't think she needs to have the voice at

925
00:49:31.079 --> 00:49:32.639
<v Speaker 1>the same time, which is why I didn't dive too

926
00:49:32.719 --> 00:49:35.519
<v Speaker 1>much into it. But right, it is also super interesting

927
00:49:35.559 --> 00:49:36.559
<v Speaker 1>at the same time, so.

928
00:49:36.920 --> 00:49:40.760
<v Speaker 2>Huh interesting, I mean, but like, really, what else is

929
00:49:40.800 --> 00:49:45.239
<v Speaker 2>she going to do? Like I feel like, if you

930
00:49:45.320 --> 00:49:48.400
<v Speaker 2>did something that terrible, it makes sense just to be like,

931
00:49:48.559 --> 00:49:50.159
<v Speaker 2>wasn't me for like the rest of your life?

932
00:49:50.480 --> 00:49:53.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, really, like every other criminal behind bars.

933
00:49:53.480 --> 00:49:57.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So anyways, it takes a big person, I think,

934
00:49:57.880 --> 00:50:00.639
<v Speaker 2>to admit when you're wrong, and she clearly is.

935
00:50:00.599 --> 00:50:04.519
<v Speaker 1>Not no that, she's clearly not that. But thank you

936
00:50:04.519 --> 00:50:06.719
<v Speaker 1>guys for being here. We appreciate it. And of course

937
00:50:06.719 --> 00:50:08.840
<v Speaker 1>we got the ramble at the end. Check out our

938
00:50:08.840 --> 00:50:11.599
<v Speaker 1>links in the description of the podcast. We got Instagram, Facebook, YouTube,

939
00:50:11.639 --> 00:50:13.800
<v Speaker 1>all that good stuff. We even have Patreon we can

940
00:50:13.880 --> 00:50:17.000
<v Speaker 1>get behind the scenes exclusive content. We have a Patreon

941
00:50:17.079 --> 00:50:19.639
<v Speaker 1>episode that's going to be coming out here, I think tomorrow,

942
00:50:20.280 --> 00:50:22.119
<v Speaker 1>so you can get that. There's a huge library. I

943
00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:25.119
<v Speaker 1>think there's over thirty episodes now on Patreon alone, probably

944
00:50:25.119 --> 00:50:27.840
<v Speaker 1>more than yeah, probably more than at this point, probably

945
00:50:27.880 --> 00:50:29.880
<v Speaker 1>upwards of forty or even fifty. I'm not sure. There's

946
00:50:29.880 --> 00:50:32.159
<v Speaker 1>a bunch, and there's gonna be another one coming out tomorrow.

947
00:50:32.239 --> 00:50:33.840
<v Speaker 1>So if you want to check that out links in

948
00:50:33.840 --> 00:50:37.639
<v Speaker 1>the description. If you don't, that's cool. We appreciate you here. Nonetheless,

949
00:50:37.719 --> 00:50:38.199
<v Speaker 1>we sure do.

950
00:50:38.320 --> 00:50:39.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and a listener are rambling.

951
00:50:39.800 --> 00:50:42.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we're just a little indie podcast. Doing a thing.

952
00:50:42.519 --> 00:50:44.400
<v Speaker 2>Just. We've been over this.

953
00:50:44.800 --> 00:50:47.880
<v Speaker 1>We are an indie podcast doing her own thing. It's

954
00:50:47.920 --> 00:50:50.519
<v Speaker 1>hard to describe it, like without using the word just.

955
00:50:51.079 --> 00:50:52.239
<v Speaker 2>Don't use the word just.

956
00:50:52.480 --> 00:50:54.360
<v Speaker 1>But just isn't negative in my opinion.

957
00:50:54.360 --> 00:50:57.079
<v Speaker 2>Oh my goodness. Okay, Well, anyway, we are an indie

958
00:50:57.119 --> 00:50:59.000
<v Speaker 2>podcast and until next time.

959
00:50:59.079 --> 00:51:01.199
<v Speaker 1>No, no, we're not done. I'm talking about just for

960
00:51:01.239 --> 00:51:04.239
<v Speaker 1>a minute. Okay. When I say just, I don't mean

961
00:51:04.440 --> 00:51:06.760
<v Speaker 1>like in a negative connotation. Yeah.

962
00:51:06.760 --> 00:51:08.519
<v Speaker 2>I know you've explained this before, my love.

963
00:51:08.559 --> 00:51:10.079
<v Speaker 1>Well I'm doing it again because you put me on

964
00:51:10.119 --> 00:51:13.559
<v Speaker 1>the spot. Okay, Like, all I've had for to eat

965
00:51:13.559 --> 00:51:17.519
<v Speaker 1>today was was just a wrap. It's just it's only that.

966
00:51:18.079 --> 00:51:20.840
<v Speaker 1>It's not bad. It's just that's the only thing.

967
00:51:20.760 --> 00:51:25.320
<v Speaker 2>I'm like listening to that feels like you're saying you

968
00:51:25.400 --> 00:51:26.480
<v Speaker 2>haven't eaten enough.

969
00:51:27.880 --> 00:51:29.679
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Well I can say I just had a pizza.

970
00:51:30.239 --> 00:51:32.320
<v Speaker 1>If that's what I had, you know, maybe today I

971
00:51:32.360 --> 00:51:34.199
<v Speaker 1>haven't eaten enough. But if I say, oh, I just

972
00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:40.519
<v Speaker 1>had a large pizza to myself, it's just the large pizza.

973
00:51:41.000 --> 00:51:44.000
<v Speaker 1>It's that thing on its own. It's an entity by itself.

974
00:51:44.760 --> 00:51:50.280
<v Speaker 1>Doesn't mean being by yourself is bad. We are just

975
00:51:50.360 --> 00:51:54.360
<v Speaker 1>an indie podcast. We are an entity by ourself. No

976
00:51:54.360 --> 00:51:55.039
<v Speaker 1>one owns us.

977
00:51:55.079 --> 00:51:57.760
<v Speaker 2>It's us in some senses. If you're like, if someone's like, oh,

978
00:51:57.800 --> 00:52:00.199
<v Speaker 2>do you want do you want a snack and you're like, no,

979
00:52:00.280 --> 00:52:03.960
<v Speaker 2>I just ate a pizza, that doesn't necessarily sound negative.

980
00:52:03.960 --> 00:52:05.679
<v Speaker 2>But then when you're like, all I've eaten today is

981
00:52:05.760 --> 00:52:08.320
<v Speaker 2>just a wrap, I don't know.

982
00:52:08.440 --> 00:52:11.800
<v Speaker 1>That's okay? Well, right now, for our podcast, it's just us.

983
00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:16.119
<v Speaker 1>That's not bad that it's just us, but it's just us.

984
00:52:16.280 --> 00:52:20.000
<v Speaker 1>There's no one else, no one else researches or records

985
00:52:20.119 --> 00:52:27.679
<v Speaker 1>or or just you. Okay, it's just me. No, you're

986
00:52:27.719 --> 00:52:30.800
<v Speaker 1>here too, but yeah, we're it's us.

987
00:52:30.920 --> 00:52:31.360
<v Speaker 2>It's us.

988
00:52:31.440 --> 00:52:33.559
<v Speaker 1>It's us. It's just us.

989
00:52:33.920 --> 00:52:35.960
<v Speaker 2>There you go. I'm gonna just leave it at that.

990
00:52:36.039 --> 00:52:38.239
<v Speaker 1>So until next time, Until next time, thank you for

991
00:52:38.280 --> 00:52:40.440
<v Speaker 1>being here. Stay wicked,
