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Speaker 1: How'd you like to listen to dot NetRocks with no ads? Easy?

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Become a patron for just five dollars a month. You

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shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month. We'll get

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you that and a special dot NetRocks patron mug. Sign

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up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey

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guess what. It's dot net Rocks all over again. Nineteen

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hundred and fifty nine episodes so far. We'll figure it

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out one of these days. Yeah, one of these days

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we'll learn what we're doing. I'm Carl Franklin. That's Richard Campbell.

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What's up, buddy? Hey?

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Speaker 2: Oh you know beautiful summer. We're recording this on Canada Day,

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July first, So oh yeah, I'm gonna make a couple

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of shows today and then I'm gonna head out and celebrate.

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Speaker 1: Have some barbecue and some whiskey and all that stuff.

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That's it. It's a grilling day, drink some Canadian whiskey.

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Our friend Lemon is here, and as an honor to him,

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or tip my hat to Lemon, my better no framework

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has something to do with him. So roll the music

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all right, man, what do you got? There's the link

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right there that I just shared with you guys. This

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is the script from the cub pub Conf two talk

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that I did and beat lemon O, who is who

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is the projected winner of pubconf because he always wins? Yeah, well,

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between him and Randolph, you're in trouble. You know, those

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two are wicked funny. This one is all about vocal dyslexia.

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And you know vocal dyslexia. You can probably figure out

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what what it is, right speech, old garb backs, coming out,

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word words, that kind of stuff. There was a comedy

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routine that I stole some of this from, but a

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lot of it I wrote myself, and I wrote it

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as if it was real. And you know that this

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is a secret that I've been hiding from everybody and

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editing out and you know, retaking my dot net rocks

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shows all that stuff. And somebody came up to me

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afterwards and said, I'm so sorry that said for what

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it was a joke.

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Speaker 2: Come on, but I sold it pretty well anyway, unless

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I sold it well enough that they're like, nope, no,

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we're rolling.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So the link is to a script in PDF

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format and there you go as another joke. I had

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slides up that had the actual correct wording right, and

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so my script was you know, highlighted all of the puns,

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so it was it was effective. Enjoy.

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Speaker 2: It's also out of self control on your part. I

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presume you did not look at the correct wording we're

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focusing on.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, I went on. I went only on

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my script, but I had to check to see where

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I had to write little breaks in the script so

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I could advance the slides. Yeah, or maybe it was

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the slides automatically advanced every minute or so, was it

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forty seconds? Yeah, I can't you lemon.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like night rules, so it would be a

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new slide every fifteen seconds.

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Speaker 1: Yeah ah yeah.

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Speaker 2: And it's the challenge that's anything harder in this world

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than a five minute bit, honestly, I know, because it's

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so tight hard right Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a way

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harder problem. And you know, give me, give me an

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hour any day of the week. I thought Yours Lemon

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was hilarious.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was trying. I was trying to remember that

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one because that was when Todd thought that it would

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be a gift to essentially like write my deck for me. Yeah,

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and so I would have nothing to prepare to Yeah, exactly,

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not like I wouldn't so like so essentially, I would

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like before the show, you're riffing, before the show, I

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would like write up a script of like possible jokes

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of like Okay, well if he writes this deck, then

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I'm going to do this joke. And he writes this deck,

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I'm going to do this And it was just all

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Dolly created versions of me in different occupations.

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Speaker 1: It was great. All right, Well enough of that. Who's

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talking to us today?

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Speaker 2: Richard Campbell grabbed a comment of a show nineteen fifty three,

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the one we did with our friend Scott Hunter back

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at Build talking about coding agents, and I realized, like,

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we're kind of over the top on AI topics right now,

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like the past couple of months. But let's face it,

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this technology is emerging in a big way and then

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going fast.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I got to tell you I've been hanging out with

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my friend Ken Tol's dad, which we'll drag back on

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the show sometimes soon. He's literally demonstrating using these tools

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to the point where in the meeting to outline the

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requirements for the project, he completed the project. Wow, I

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figured it was six weeks of coding done in a

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two hour meeting.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: I think it's just astonishing and grinded. It depends on

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the project. There's lots of different elements to all of this,

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so the coding agent thing, you know, obviously relevant in

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our commentators Jeremy Hadten who said this was a fascinating

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episode that started to really show what the future of

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programming is going to look like. And yet the end

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result question on everyone's mind, not just technologies, is will

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I be out of a job in a year or

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two time work as a technologists and financial services and

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this question is also the top of mind for my

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business colleagues who respond to AI is often think instead

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of what great services you go to offer to customers

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if you had five assistants. Many of us have worked

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on long lived projects where the list of minor but

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customer annoying defects and future request just grows and grows.

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There's always more important things to do. Imagine a world

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where with the help of coding agents writing pullar quests,

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the list is actually reduced to zero. Maybe we'll have

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permanently delighted customers, permanently delighted.

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Speaker 1: I do like that.

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Speaker 2: Line, not like anybody's getting the bottom of the to

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do list.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true.

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Speaker 2: The real question is what are the skills you need

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to focus on to be able to utilize these tools? Well, Like,

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it doesn't surprise me that a friend like Kent Doll's

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stat or any of us really because you can think

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through the whole problem and you're shepherding these tools of

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limited capability. Yeah, so these parts that it can code.

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Speaker 1: And I still believe that unless you've done what the

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tool is doing and can spot things that it's doing

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wrong or that you don't want it to do particularly

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that way, and can correct it, Yeah, you're basing your

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whole career around something that may or may not serve you. Well,

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So I still think that you have to be a

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developer and you have to have experience to know what

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to correct. Yeah, yeah, I don't disagree.

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Speaker 2: And certainly as soon as the complexity reaches a certain level,

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these tools tip over.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, in all of these things, you know, obviously, like

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you know, our hearts bleed for the juniors because you know,

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you need to have somebody get a foothold on those

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kinds things. And that's the first place that this thing

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is supposed to supplant except for like the thing that

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like with all of the doom saying and all of

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the and all of the like cataclysmic you know, earth

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shattering like AI stuff that I think people lose sight of.

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Is I remember living through the entire squarespace revolution.

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Speaker 2: Sure, you know why I wouldn't even build a website again,

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Yeah exactly.

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Speaker 3: And it's like nobody's going to hire somebody like me

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because they can do something in square space. It's like, yeah, no,

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you absolutely can. Like if you're a you know, a

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Thai restaurant, that is the right move. That's exactly what

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you should be doing. Word Press all that, Yeah, I

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mean that those those those really awful like word Press

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kind of like UI Builder things. Yeah, you know, eventually

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there's like gets hacked. So that's a thing, but like

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until that time, you'll have a site that like is

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slow but like probably works okay. And so that's that's

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a thing that we've lived through a bunch and the

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idea of doing like client service website for money things

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still exists because there is a level that that's not

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attainable at.

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Speaker 2: Sure, are you really just being more productive you know,

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more of the same.

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Speaker 1: And trusting too, Like a customer is going to trust

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an expert whether or not they use AI. If they

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use it, great, they're more productive rather than just going

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directly to an AI and trying it themselves, because that's risky.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I've been in a lot of client

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meetings and like a lot of client meetings, and the

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idea of even just getting something that you can spec

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out for a coding agent to do, you know, like

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the average client like explaining their requirements is Labyrinthian and

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it's Brazil and so like.

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Speaker 2: We get back to this idea of you you thought

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your job as a software developer was writing code.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I thought it was to develop software.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah yeah.

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Speaker 1: So the one thing I will say to the junior

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develop is before you write a line of code or

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ask the AI to write a line of code, you

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should consult with the AI given your spec to come

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up with an architecture and then get the buy off

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from your customer on that architecture before you do anything right,

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because that's going to be your limiting factor. You don't

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have experience to know what the architecture should be. You

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can get some ideas from AI but ultimately your customers.

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That's all I'm going to say for now, Richard, you

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can get back to the comment.

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Speaker 2: All right, Jeremy, thank you so much for your comment.

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And a copy of music Coba is on its way

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to you. And if you'd like a copy musakobea, I

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write a comment on the website at dot NetRocks dot

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com or on the facebooks. We publish every show there

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and if you comment there and everybody in the show,

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send you copy of Musickoba.

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Speaker 1: And Music to Cobey is still going strong, twenty two tracks.

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You can get the whole collection in MP three flak

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or wave format of Music to Code by dot net.

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All right, man, let's talk about what happened in nineteen

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fifty nine before we bring on Lemon. All right. Some

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significant events included the admission of Hawaii as the fiftieth

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state in the United States. Wow Yeah, the tragic plane

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crash known as the Day the Music Died, Buddy Holly

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Big Bopper, Ritchie Valens I believe for those three, and

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the launch of the first American satellite explorer seven. Additionally,

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it was a pivotal year for cultural and political changes,

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including the rise of Fidel Castro in Cuba, and the

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introduction of the Barbie doll. What do you got on

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your list? Richard?

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Speaker 2: The IBM fourteen oh one, the first mass produced mainframe

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transistor based This is still before you know chips exists.

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They called it literally the model T of computers. Twelve

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thousand units sold over fifteen years or so, going out

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of production in seventy one.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Introduction of the first photocopier, the Xerox nine to fourteen

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plain paper copier. There were specially paper copiers before that,

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the transfer paper and stuff up by a plain paper copier.

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And my personal favorite, the lecture from Richard Feynman called

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There's plenty of Room at the bottom where he describes nanotechnology. Wow, Wow,

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that's Fineman.

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Speaker 1: That's some stuff. Nineteen fifty nine. It's unbelievable. Yeah, okay, well,

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I guess we should introduce our guest Lemon that's his name,

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first name, last name, Yes, with a lifelong passion that

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you know what that joke is from? It was I

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Am Mork from the planet Orc. Is that your first

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name or last name? Yes? Robin Williams all right, with

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a lifelong passion for the weirdness of the Internet and

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a day job as a development lead for whoever hired him.

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Lemon spends his professional time making websites for money and

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his free time making websites for no money. I should

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have read this first. He's created a number of stupid

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things for the Internet, like the games over on kind

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of Fun, the wiki how guessing game, Damn Dog, the

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Google autocomplete game, idiots dot Win, and other things of

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questionable use. He also hosts a podcast that looks at

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some of the Internet's weirder subcultures. It's not safe for

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your work unless you work somewhere really cool. Welcome Lemon. Thanks, yeah,

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very cool.

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Speaker 3: That's so great to talk to you guys.

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Speaker 1: Good to have you on friend. Yeah. What's on your

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mind these days? Boy?

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Speaker 3: A lot, a lot of the the idea of Because

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one of the things that Richard and I were talking

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about a little while ago is is that I think

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that the idea of the traditional web is coming back

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to like win a little bit more. I think that

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the sort of like movement towards like super weighty like

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spas is starting to move away, which means that which

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means that I think so, I think so, and that's

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because I'm really excited to tell a bunch of people

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that I was right.

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Speaker 1: That's the important part.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. But like you know, even like in the

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front ends world, like the the newest hotness is astro,

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and like an astro is cool, but like, but I

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do like that, like the thing that is the real exciting, new,

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brand new tech sort of deal is also something that

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is traditional server rendered like MPa, you know, index dot

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HTML pages. And I think that that's that's in my mind,

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a little bit of a return to sanity, which I

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think is great.

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Speaker 1: Now this is a this is a great time to

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ask this question. Are you talking about sites for companies

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that their customers are b to B or internal applications,

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or are you talking about customer facing websites that are

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heavy on the client side.

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Speaker 3: I think that I think that there's a little bit

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more of it happening when it is like, uh, you know,

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public or customer facing. The idea of when U URLs

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matter more, when when discoverability matters more, when open graph

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stuff matters more. That's where like MPAs do a better job.

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Speaker 2: I'm just looking at the set of URLs we just

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had and thinking, look, how coolies are kind of dot

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fun and idiots dot win and damn dot dog and

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Astro dot build.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's so many. There's so many TLDs.

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I mean, there's like the idea of I mean, you know,

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like I try to every once in a while try

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to talk clients out of buying you know, the dot

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com or the dot org because you'll have to end

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up with something that's pretty lame. But if you do

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have literally like seven hundred like TLDs, you can probably

279
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find something really and like damn Dog, that one specifically

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was I saw the like dot dog was a valid

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tld and I was like, can I buy damn Dog?

282
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And it was like yeah, and it won't be that

283
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much and I was like okay, cool, and then I

284
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bought it and I was like okay, what goes here? Yeah,

285
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And so like the game that I built for that

286
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domain doesn't really relate to the name, no exactly, Like

287
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it doesn't like wiki how and damn Dog don't really

288
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have anything to do together. It was just like, well,

289
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I got this domain, I got this idea, let'swush them together.

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Speaker 1: No, that okay, so funny.

291
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's there is an interesting wave I think people

292
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are tired of the megasites. Yeah, that that tooling's gotten

293
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so much better. Like I've had a whole conversation the

294
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other day about how could we build an Amazon that

295
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wasn't Amazon. That's just an interface to looking up all

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of the sites for products that you're looking for. And

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I'm like, aren't you talking about Google? It's like and

298
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it's not Google. It's like, okay, it's just the loathing

299
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of the tech giants that we've got. Is that what

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this is?

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Speaker 3: I mean justify So I mean like I think that

302
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you know, Fang's done to a fair amount in the

303
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last couple of years to get some resentment.

304
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, a fair bit of that.

305
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Speaker 2: And you know, again looking at the positive side of

306
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this AI wave in that we do have tools that

307
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could do or searching for us, I also wonder if

308
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we're you know, we're getting walked back to bare metal

309
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coding because same thing, the tools are really getting really

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good at doing vanilla JavaScript.

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Speaker 3: Or doing vanilla JavaScript, which is the part that I

312
00:16:26,759 --> 00:16:30,559
never want to do, you know, So like like like

313
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one of the things is that like I've never like, okay, sure,

314
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like if you're writing code, the one thing that you're

315
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granted every once in a while, is you get to

316
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experience a flow state and that's great. Yeah, you're like

317
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where you're writing code and it feels good and then

318
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you're like an hour in it starts to feel terrific

319
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and like that's a lovely feeling. But like you can

320
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get that in a lot of different ways and genuinely,

321
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like the actual writing of code, syntax, indenting, semicolons, I

322
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don't like that at all. Like I've never been interested

323
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in that kind of thing, like all of those like

324
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internal like religious holy wars that people will have about

325
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like this this syntax versus this syntax. Like, boy, if

326
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we can agree on it, yeah, that's all that matters.

327
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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I got to tell you the past

328
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:18,519
few weeks, I've spent a lot of time with a

329
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bunch of twenty something developers. They really don't care about languages,

330
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frameworks or any of those things. They are just trying

331
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to build solutions. We're here, we are, you know, concerned

332
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for the junior developer. I am not concerned about these guys.

333
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Yeah they would, they are. They are totally interested in

334
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solving solutions and with the stack they're use is the

335
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least interesting part of that.

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Speaker 3: I love I love that. Yeah, like be omnivorous and

337
00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,000
you know, like do you like view or react? I

338
00:17:46,039 --> 00:17:48,000
don't know, Like whoever solves the problem.

339
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Speaker 2: And the other side of this is because they can

340
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also deliver an MVP in a week or a couple

341
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of days. You know, when we were committing to nine

342
00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:01,839
months to the first you know, meaningful build, you could

343
00:18:01,839 --> 00:18:03,680
spend a few days talking about what stack to use.

344
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But if you're going to be done in a week,

345
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you shouldn't spend five minutes on it.

346
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Speaker 1: Just go right.

347
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Speaker 2: The longer debate, the slower you're going.

348
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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And these things get to get cheaper because

349
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if you are able to build something with that sort

350
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of expediency to a certain extent, your QA is that

351
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your QA is the public launch. So like the plans

352
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that are the problems you thought you would have are

353
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actually proved out to be something different because now actual

354
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customers are using it.

355
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Speaker 1: Hey, sorry, I was quiet for the last few minutes.

356
00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,319
I discovered a bug in our or a situation in

357
00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,880
our admin that we use in the back of house.

358
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You are the first guest that does not have a

359
00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:48,880
last name, and so my software was looking for a

360
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space to put it into first name and last name,

361
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and lo and behold you came up blank love it

362
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and the guests. So I had to actually pull up

363
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the database and do an update query and that's why

364
00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:02,319
I've been signed. So but I did enjoy your conversation.

365
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,440
Speaker 3: It's so funny you your yours is not the first

366
00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:07,720
database that I've broken with my last name?

367
00:19:10,279 --> 00:19:12,599
Speaker 2: Or is it only a last name? When do you

368
00:19:12,599 --> 00:19:14,599
switch to a symbol? Because it worked for Prince?

369
00:19:14,799 --> 00:19:15,000
Speaker 1: Yeah?

370
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Speaker 3: Right, it didn't necessarily work great for Prince, like he

371
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did go back.

372
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Speaker 1: You can't fill out a form on the internet. Yeah

373
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for example.

374
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Speaker 3: Yeah, Like nobody would say that, like symbol was the

375
00:19:26,279 --> 00:19:29,000
best period in Prince, Like I love Prince, I'm with you,

376
00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,640
but like, but you wouldn't say that like symbol time.

377
00:19:31,799 --> 00:19:34,160
Speaker 2: That's what his best music was created, and that's when

378
00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:36,759
he was fighting the music industry and winning.

379
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:38,799
Speaker 1: Hm. That's right, that was really what that was about.

380
00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:43,160
The solo on while my Guitar Gently we stands out

381
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,279
as one of his most spectacular performances.

382
00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,240
Speaker 3: Oh that's so good, and you know you know the

383
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:50,240
backstory to that.

384
00:19:50,279 --> 00:19:53,519
Speaker 1: Right, Well, I know all about the song, But what

385
00:19:53,599 --> 00:19:55,680
in particular are you talking about.

386
00:19:55,799 --> 00:19:58,599
Speaker 3: So it's it's uh, it's it's it's it was the

387
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,640
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, it's Eric Clapton, it's

388
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,960
other guitar guys. I don't remember who else is in there.

389
00:20:04,839 --> 00:20:08,759
Speaker 1: Jeff Lynn, jeff Lyn, Ok, yeah, Tom Petty Yeah.

390
00:20:08,799 --> 00:20:10,599
Speaker 3: And so essentially, like the Rock and Roll Hall of

391
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,759
Fame put this this performance together and they cast it,

392
00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,519
and so you got these like guys that are sitting

393
00:20:17,559 --> 00:20:19,759
around and doing their guitar thing, and then Prince is

394
00:20:19,759 --> 00:20:23,000
there and they're like, what is what is the kiss

395
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,039
guy doing here? Like this is what and like, and

396
00:20:26,079 --> 00:20:27,799
so they didn't want to hang out with him. They

397
00:20:27,799 --> 00:20:29,720
didn't they didn't think that he was on their level,

398
00:20:30,279 --> 00:20:32,319
and so he kind of like sulked in the corner

399
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,519
and then went home on day one of the actual

400
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,079
like rehearsals, and then and then that was it. That

401
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,119
was that was that was the last thing that happened.

402
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:47,799
So that actual performance was him showing up without any

403
00:20:47,839 --> 00:20:51,440
of them knowing, like getting on stage shredding their faces

404
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,079
off for two minutes. And then he like hired a

405
00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:56,039
guy to like be in the rafters so that he

406
00:20:56,039 --> 00:20:58,640
when he threw his guitar up in the air, somebody

407
00:20:58,680 --> 00:20:59,200
would catch it.

408
00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:01,559
Speaker 1: It just never came down. Yeah, And they never came down.

409
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then just like walked off on stage like, yeah,

410
00:21:04,599 --> 00:21:06,319
I'm legit and you just learned that.

411
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:08,440
Speaker 1: I don't want to get off on a rand about Prince.

412
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:12,160
But it goes without saying that throughout his career he

413
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:16,400
never put himself forward as the new Jimmy Hendrix, you

414
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:20,200
know what I mean. He played guitar just like another

415
00:21:20,279 --> 00:21:22,240
part in a song, and a lot of times it

416
00:21:22,279 --> 00:21:24,920
was just rhythm. Of course, in Purple Rain he did

417
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,799
some spectacular things, but other than that, you know, and

418
00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:33,079
who knows what that was people. I think he was

419
00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:37,599
trying to hide it, you know, from the public, just

420
00:21:37,759 --> 00:21:41,400
waiting for that moment that while my guitar gently weeps,

421
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:48,839
moment to prove himself as a shred absolute shredder. Yeah. Yeah,

422
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,240
I don't know. I could be totally wrong. Maybe I

423
00:21:51,319 --> 00:21:54,400
just didn't listen to enough Prince Real stuff. You know.

424
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:56,559
Speaker 2: It was then an air crafton line when they asked

425
00:21:56,599 --> 00:21:59,279
who's the best guitar? What it's like being the best guitarist,

426
00:21:59,319 --> 00:22:01,200
he said, I don't know, have to ask prints.

427
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:06,319
Speaker 1: That's pretty good. Probably he's also named like Hendrix and

428
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:10,079
Almon and yeah, yeah, he was blown away by Jimmy

429
00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,680
Hendricks when he saw him the first time, as was everybody. Okay,

430
00:22:14,519 --> 00:22:16,960
the heck are we talking about here? We're talking about

431
00:22:17,079 --> 00:22:19,559
progressive web apps in twenty twenty five?

432
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,640
Speaker 2: Are we walking towards this? I wanted to talk about

433
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,920
progressive webps just because we haven't talked about it in ages. Yeah,

434
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:26,759
and the areas I can tell. The only thing people

435
00:22:26,799 --> 00:22:28,440
do with it is create an icon on a phone with.

436
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,079
Speaker 3: Them Yeah, yeah, which is which is something. It's really

437
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,079
just something you know, you can you can check a

438
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,759
box by doing that, and.

439
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:38,680
Speaker 1: That's Notifications are hard.

440
00:22:38,839 --> 00:22:42,400
Speaker 3: Right, Notifications are hard, And a lot of times when

441
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:46,960
in my mind when a client says to me, like

442
00:22:47,079 --> 00:22:49,720
we want a mobile app, what I actually hear them

443
00:22:49,759 --> 00:22:52,799
say is we want notifications. Like you don't actually want

444
00:22:52,799 --> 00:22:54,920
a mobile app, You just want to get push notifications

445
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,880
to your customers. Like you when you say I have

446
00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:00,799
a restaurant and I need my restaurant to have a moment, Well,

447
00:23:00,799 --> 00:23:03,839
that's that's silly. We're actually saying as we want to

448
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,119
sort of like push notifications onto our customers and like,

449
00:23:07,319 --> 00:23:10,680
and all of that architecture is still like you know,

450
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,759
it's been in the PWA system for a while, and

451
00:23:13,799 --> 00:23:15,720
you can do it with all of the same you know,

452
00:23:15,839 --> 00:23:19,680
Twilio and all of those services will handle that just

453
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:20,079
the same.

454
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,400
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, that's not so much the notification itself. It's

455
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:28,319
putting the little number red circle number on the icon

456
00:23:28,559 --> 00:23:32,480
on the phone. That is the stuff of legend. Like

457
00:23:32,519 --> 00:23:36,240
in Android, it's a little easier to do in iOS.

458
00:23:36,759 --> 00:23:39,480
You have to have a Firebase account and of this

459
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,720
and a that and services and all that. And in

460
00:23:42,839 --> 00:23:47,960
a PWA, I thought it was not allowed by iOS.

461
00:23:49,079 --> 00:23:51,880
Last time I checked, you couldn't do it. But it's

462
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,079
been a while since I've done a PNWA, so.

463
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 3: You know, interestingly, you're actually now up against a point

464
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:00,799
of ignorance for me, because I don't know if you

465
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,720
get the little if you get the little dot uh

466
00:24:04,599 --> 00:24:09,039
on on a p W A, I bet you don't. Yeah,

467
00:24:09,279 --> 00:24:10,519
but I don't. I don't know that for a fact.

468
00:24:10,519 --> 00:24:11,799
Somebody would have to fact check me on that.

469
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 1: I I kind of think that, and I've said this

470
00:24:14,039 --> 00:24:17,160
before that Apple would rather you put an app in

471
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:18,079
the App Store.

472
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 2: Than every time, you know, they resisted. P w A

473
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,640
is the longest, but they also support them and.

474
00:24:23,599 --> 00:24:25,880
Speaker 1: They so it makes sense for them to sort of

475
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,400
cripple if you will, or not allow certain things that

476
00:24:29,559 --> 00:24:30,519
real apps.

477
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,279
Speaker 3: Have, and they still have you know. That's that's uh.

478
00:24:34,599 --> 00:24:37,160
There's some things that are available in Android that aren't

479
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:41,079
in iOS right now. One of them is you don't

480
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,160
get gyro in a p w A. You can get

481
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,920
it on an Android, but if you want to, for example, tell.

482
00:24:46,799 --> 00:24:50,200
Speaker 1: Us what that is, like like like oh gyroscope.

483
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, I like it, like if I want to.

484
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,480
And this actually came up not that long ago where

485
00:24:54,519 --> 00:24:56,920
we were working on something where we wanted to know

486
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,640
if your phone was on its screen or on its

487
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,519
back right, And we did that and it actually was

488
00:25:03,599 --> 00:25:06,480
totally fine on Android, didn't work at all on iOS,

489
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,319
so we had to kind of like reconfigure how that

490
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,799
thing worked. The other thing is they will never give

491
00:25:11,799 --> 00:25:15,440
you NFC. You don't get that that's for Apple pay

492
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:17,400
on get Out.

493
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,640
Speaker 2: Yeah I did just look it up and yes, a

494
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:25,160
p w A app running on Android will dot uh

495
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,160
for notifications Oh okay, and it won't on it won't

496
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,319
on iOS unless you use the badging API as well.

497
00:25:32,319 --> 00:25:34,519
Speaker 3: So you still could then you can, but you just

498
00:25:34,519 --> 00:25:39,960
have to do all right, Well, that's that's something that's

499
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:40,559
not terrible.

500
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's something. And does JavaScript have access just once

501
00:25:43,759 --> 00:25:47,559
again it's if iPhone or if if Safari, right, does

502
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,960
JavaScript have access to the gyroscope? Yeah it does, Yeah

503
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:52,559
you can use you still couldn't use it.

504
00:25:52,599 --> 00:25:54,440
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah you can do it. It's just

505
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,640
that it just that your iOS device will never ask

506
00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:59,960
for permission nor grant it, so all of that stuff

507
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:00,599
be ignored.

508
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,279
Speaker 1: Okay, what are the other gotchaes about PWA's that we're

509
00:26:03,319 --> 00:26:04,480
not talking about.

510
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:06,839
Speaker 3: I mean, I think I think some of the other

511
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:11,039
gotchas are like the you know, like the idea of

512
00:26:12,039 --> 00:26:15,079
people saying like I want it in the app store

513
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:20,039
is an actual demand. I think that that's a complicated

514
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:21,920
thing because I think that like being in the app

515
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:23,720
store is yeah, you know.

516
00:26:24,079 --> 00:26:25,759
Speaker 1: Be careful what you ask for.

517
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,079
Speaker 3: Yeah, right right, you're you're you're you're slicing your cake

518
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,839
a little bit, because I don't think that like, you know,

519
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,880
there there was a time when there was there was

520
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:40,720
a time when people were using those app stores for discovery,

521
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:42,200
and I don't think that's the case anymore.

522
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 2: No, once you have a million apps, you can't find

523
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,039
anything anyway, and you're mostly worried about is this the

524
00:26:48,039 --> 00:26:49,279
app I'm actually looking for?

525
00:26:49,759 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 1: Right?

526
00:26:50,319 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 2: I tend not to go you know when I When

527
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,319
I buy a product that requires an app to use it,

528
00:26:55,319 --> 00:26:57,880
probably typically a smart home product of some kind. The

529
00:26:57,920 --> 00:26:59,480
one thing I don't do is go to the place

530
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:00,960
store to look for the app, because I'll get the

531
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:01,400
wrong one.

532
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 1: Initially, give you a a QR code or or if

533
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,960
it's just a name, they'll show you the icon so

534
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,279
you can at least tell it from all the other fakies.

535
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're gonna, if you're gonna encourage people to

536
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,599
go to the play store, give them lots of evidence

537
00:27:17,599 --> 00:27:18,079
of this is.

538
00:27:18,039 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 1: The correct app.

539
00:27:19,079 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 3: Absolutely, this is.

540
00:27:20,279 --> 00:27:24,200
Speaker 2: The name of the company, this is the icon. It

541
00:27:24,279 --> 00:27:27,319
just speaks to how messed up app stores are that. Yeah,

542
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:29,119
we don't trust them for a reason.

543
00:27:29,799 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 1: Yeah. Spring brings you back to the U r L thing, Right,

544
00:27:33,839 --> 00:27:37,240
somebody searching for the dot com completely unnecessary if you

545
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,559
have a QR code and.

546
00:27:39,519 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 3: Then the other sort of uh, what do you want

547
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,559
to say, like challenge to the thing is that in

548
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,599
order to do like in order to do kind of

549
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,880
like anything beyond Baby's first pw A, you have to

550
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,880
do things with service workers. Yeah, and a service worker

551
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,319
is a complicated thing to get started in because because

552
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,279
you're doing cashing. Now you're doing cashing for a thing

553
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,640
that catches, and that's complix. Yes, yes it is, because

554
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,279
if you screw it up and you get that into

555
00:28:11,599 --> 00:28:14,440
you know, the actual like public, and you didn't write

556
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,559
your service worker right, well, now they've got a thing

557
00:28:17,559 --> 00:28:21,519
that's going to be locked in time forever. So you know,

558
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:25,160
doing that first version of your service worker before you

559
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,119
get out to the public, making sure that that's pretty

560
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,599
rock solid and you can do cash in validation is important.

561
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:37,799
Speaker 1: Very good. I did a PWA version of I think

562
00:28:37,839 --> 00:28:40,359
it was either Music to Code Buy or something like

563
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,359
that on the dot net Rock Show or maybe I

564
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,079
can't remember what it was, but I have it out

565
00:28:44,119 --> 00:28:49,160
there and it was it was pretty good. There's you know,

566
00:28:49,279 --> 00:28:54,680
dealing with the cashed data was obviously an issue. And

567
00:28:54,759 --> 00:28:58,759
if you ever have to, I know that sometimes if

568
00:28:58,759 --> 00:29:01,400
the cash gets busted or something broke, then you just

569
00:29:01,519 --> 00:29:03,480
like put a question mark at the end of the

570
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,799
RL and some entropy data. But I don't recall it

571
00:29:07,839 --> 00:29:12,160
being a deal breaker for the PW. I have a

572
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,440
PWA right now that I use in the house, and

573
00:29:15,839 --> 00:29:18,440
I have a on my mantle. Richard knows this. On

574
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,359
my mantle, I've got a big screen with a WPF

575
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:27,799
that WPF app that randomly shows pictures for thirty seconds

576
00:29:27,839 --> 00:29:32,160
at a time, And I basically have an app that

577
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,000
goes to a signal our hub that's also in the

578
00:29:35,119 --> 00:29:38,880
WPF app with a local DNS. Okay, you know. It's

579
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,640
a progressive web app and it shows the thing and

580
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,799
I can advance next previous, I can turn on captions

581
00:29:46,839 --> 00:29:48,480
like I can do all sorts of things from it.

582
00:29:48,519 --> 00:29:52,119
And it's very handy and I didn't have to go

583
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,279
to the app store. I just gave my wife the

584
00:29:54,519 --> 00:29:56,640
URL and she installed it and I installed it, and

585
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,720
that's it. It's like a remote.

586
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,799
Speaker 3: That's that's very fun. It seems like unnecessary over engineering,

587
00:30:02,839 --> 00:30:04,000
but I love it totally.

588
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:10,559
Speaker 2: Have you met Carl Franklin coming out totally signal He's

589
00:30:10,559 --> 00:30:11,319
going to use signal?

590
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's totally for the fun of it. Projects.

591
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, but again, you could have been a QR code

592
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:20,240
right to just generate it like that.

593
00:30:20,359 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 1: Now I would yeah, I wrote it before QR codes

594
00:30:22,519 --> 00:30:25,359
or a thing. But uh yeah, just because they don't

595
00:30:25,359 --> 00:30:29,599
make remote controls that I can use with my app.

596
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,240
Yeah yeah, they probably do actually, but I didn't want

597
00:30:33,279 --> 00:30:33,920
to do that.

598
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, you wanted to use signal.

599
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: R absolutely in a progressive way.

600
00:30:38,599 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 2: Well, and of course my instinct as a developers to say,

601
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,039
isn't there a framework I can use? But it's like

602
00:30:44,519 --> 00:30:48,480
every framework does p w A stuff, doesn't it. Yeah, yeah,

603
00:30:48,799 --> 00:30:51,799
it's not necessarily there's any p w A frameworks per

604
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:53,680
se as there is a bunch of frameworks and they

605
00:30:53,759 --> 00:30:55,200
leverage the pw A library.

606
00:30:55,319 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 3: I can run into that sometimes, where like I've seen

607
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:01,599
people use because like a lot a lot of the

608
00:31:01,759 --> 00:31:04,920
other frameworks, you know, your VET and your like webpack

609
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,799
and roll up or whatever will essentially have like a

610
00:31:07,799 --> 00:31:10,880
p to BA starter kit. But I always found that

611
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:15,119
weird because it's, like you, the idea of a progressive

612
00:31:15,119 --> 00:31:17,880
web app is that it is progressive, like you're you're

613
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:22,119
making a website and then you're adding features like condiments. Yeah,

614
00:31:22,319 --> 00:31:26,160
so the idea of well, let's get every single capability

615
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,359
in here. Okay, do you need it?

616
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 1: Like?

617
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,119
Speaker 3: Where do you go? What are you going for like

618
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:32,960
it's a website, add stuff as you need it.

619
00:31:33,279 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: Start with the basics.

620
00:31:34,519 --> 00:31:36,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and I think I opened with the it's

621
00:31:36,839 --> 00:31:38,359
just about putting an icon on the phone.

622
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, this seems like a good place for a break.

623
00:31:42,319 --> 00:31:44,920
So we'll be right back after these very important messages.

624
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:46,200
And as a reminder, if you don't want to hear

625
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,839
these messages, you can become a patron for five bucks

626
00:31:49,839 --> 00:31:51,759
a months. You'll get a feed for dot net rocks

627
00:31:51,759 --> 00:31:56,279
that has no ads. We'll be right back. Did you

628
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,240
know you can lift and shift your dot Net framework

629
00:31:59,319 --> 00:32:03,319
apps to virtual machines in the cloud. Use the elastic

630
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,920
beanstalk service to easily migrate to Amazon EC two with

631
00:32:08,079 --> 00:32:12,200
little or no changes. Find out more at aws dot

632
00:32:12,279 --> 00:32:20,720
Amazon dot com, slash Elastic beanstalk. And we're back. It's

633
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,279
dot net rocks. I'm Carl Franklin, non Richard Cabell, and

634
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,279
that's our buddy Lemon and we're talking about PWA's and

635
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,839
AI and whatever other weird stuff he wants to talk about.

636
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,039
So the floor is open. You got some more weird

637
00:32:34,039 --> 00:32:36,440
stuff you want to talk about with PWA or not?

638
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,279
Speaker 3: Oh man ah, you know, I actually one of the

639
00:32:40,319 --> 00:32:44,240
things that that I'm hoping to cause I don't know

640
00:32:44,279 --> 00:32:46,440
if you know, I don't know if you know when

641
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:47,720
this episode's coming.

642
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 2: Out wed July seventeenth.

643
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,119
Speaker 3: July seventeenth, Okay, all right, well that's going to be

644
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,759
my deadline then, because I actually, like I have this

645
00:32:56,799 --> 00:32:59,720
little I don't want to say arcade, but like essentially

646
00:32:59,759 --> 00:33:02,000
like the kind of fun thing which is just a

647
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:06,759
bunch of like dumb little games and like games no, no, no, no,

648
00:33:06,799 --> 00:33:09,920
like little web games. Okay, that's that's actually a main

649
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:10,880
cabinet right back there.

650
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:11,759
Speaker 1: It is.

651
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, but uh but yeah, so I actually re

652
00:33:19,079 --> 00:33:27,680
engineered this thing from scratch because I was originally using uh,

653
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:29,920
web sockets and so because I wanted to make a

654
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,519
multiplayer game and proof that I could make a multiplayer game,

655
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:34,759
and so I did the whole thing with web sockets,

656
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,000
but it broke all the time, and so like people

657
00:33:38,039 --> 00:33:41,200
would want to do these, like like I made these.

658
00:33:41,279 --> 00:33:44,160
This one game called Invalid, which is the slogan for

659
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:50,400
it was a trivia game of unnecessary suffering. And the

660
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,640
game works. The game works well except for like, man,

661
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:55,400
did that thing crash?

662
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 1: Does it happen much? Buzzer though, that's that's the thing

663
00:33:59,000 --> 00:33:59,359
it does.

664
00:33:59,519 --> 00:34:05,079
Speaker 3: It has it has a flying pig. Yeah, and then

665
00:34:05,079 --> 00:34:06,720
there's a hacking mini game at the end.

666
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,079
Speaker 1: Nice. So congratulations, pigs are flying, You've done it kind

667
00:34:11,119 --> 00:34:11,360
of thing.

668
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:13,840
Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, you know you can essentially, you

669
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,960
can distract one of the players by putting a flying

670
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,920
pig on their screen, and then the flying pig just

671
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,559
gives you useless facts. Distract you. That's from the thing

672
00:34:23,599 --> 00:34:25,840
that you're actually trying to do, and it goes and

673
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,239
every time it gives a new fact, it goes like

674
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:33,280
it oints, you know. But anyway, Yeah, so I had

675
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,880
built this, I had built this this thing out and

676
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,639
it was doing. It was doing just kind of like

677
00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:41,199
a problem because of this this web socket thing. So

678
00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:44,639
I actually did the whole thing again in fire Base

679
00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:47,199
because I knew that that you know, at that point,

680
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,719
like disconnections and the reconnections were less relevant.

681
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 1: Yeah.

682
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,719
Speaker 3: And so then the new one that I will be

683
00:34:54,840 --> 00:35:00,320
launching with that is a game called this Meeting has

684
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,639
points nice. And so the idea is that you're going

685
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,000
to be in a meeting with your coworkers and it's

686
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:08,559
going to be boring and it's going to last an

687
00:35:08,559 --> 00:35:11,559
hour and a half and several of the people there

688
00:35:11,559 --> 00:35:15,480
won't pay attention. So therefore, when you get into the meeting,

689
00:35:15,559 --> 00:35:18,840
you all join this lobby at the same time. And

690
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,639
when the meeting starts, it flips over five cards, right,

691
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:27,880
and so it'll be like alligator suitcase ten points, like

692
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,280
let's take the bull by the horn five points or whatever.

693
00:35:32,079 --> 00:35:34,960
And so you get these phrases, and so your goal

694
00:35:35,119 --> 00:35:37,719
is you want to slip one of these phrases into

695
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:43,280
the meeting without anybody knowing. And so you say the phrase,

696
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,519
you click on the card, and then a little timer

697
00:35:45,559 --> 00:35:48,599
goes by, and if that timer elapses, then cool. You

698
00:35:48,639 --> 00:35:52,400
get the points. However, if somebody catches you, they can

699
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:54,880
type in the phrase and then they steal your points

700
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,679
from you. So the two ways to play or either

701
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,400
just try to spam it out or just don't like,

702
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:03,440
just sit back and just pay attention.

703
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,679
Speaker 1: Right. Have you ever been threatened with getting fired because

704
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:08,519
I'm just curious.

705
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've been. I've been threatened to get fired for

706
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:12,760
a lot of reasons.

707
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,679
Speaker 1: How I distracted everyone from the content of the meeting.

708
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:22,280
Speaker 2: In one easy I would argue that I'm encouraging your

709
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,360
coworkers to pay more attention and meetings.

710
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 3: You know, they in order to play the game, well,

711
00:36:29,519 --> 00:36:32,639
you have to pay more more close attention. So this

712
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,239
is a productivity tool. If anything, I'm going to sell

713
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:40,320
it to it. Lancian, I love it.

714
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:42,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great. I do you know?

715
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 2: Talking about games, you mentioned jack Box TV, which was

716
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,440
big in the during the pandemic. Oh, is that what

717
00:36:48,679 --> 00:36:53,280
you talk about? A great web client? Anybody's ever played

718
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:54,760
one of these? It's like one of you has to

719
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,239
own the Jackbox game. It's multiplayer, and then you're on

720
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,199
a streaming zoom or a team's not teams, I mean

721
00:37:02,199 --> 00:37:05,599
you're on one of those, and then that hosts the

722
00:37:05,639 --> 00:37:09,280
game and then all the players play from their phone.

723
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:13,039
But you don't need you know, it's at works so well. Yeah,

724
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,199
that people forget the magic that's going on there.

725
00:37:16,559 --> 00:37:20,119
Speaker 3: And they and they had i mean a couple of

726
00:37:20,159 --> 00:37:23,639
things lined out, you know, to their benefit, right, Like

727
00:37:23,639 --> 00:37:29,760
like Jackbox was cresting at the exact time of you know, pandemic,

728
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,480
and so everyone was playing jack Box, which just happened.

729
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,519
But like, but that's because they were ready for it.

730
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:40,199
Like they built something that's really stable, they built something

731
00:37:40,199 --> 00:37:42,760
that would work in person, but it would also like

732
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,480
work in any kind of environment. You could play it on,

733
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:49,960
you can play it from anywhere, and and it like

734
00:37:50,559 --> 00:37:56,440
their growth was because they built something really really strong,

735
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,119
so that when they had it wasn't like this thing

736
00:37:59,159 --> 00:38:01,280
where like, oh no, your thing's really popular and now

737
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:02,599
it crashes and now it stinks.

738
00:38:02,679 --> 00:38:05,760
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I don't know that it ever tipped over ever.

739
00:38:05,639 --> 00:38:08,159
Speaker 3: And they didn't. And they didn't even like you know,

740
00:38:08,199 --> 00:38:10,320
I mean, they kept their same model, which is like

741
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:11,880
we're gonna have a pack of five games, and we're

742
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:13,920
going to just keep selling these like different packs of

743
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,079
five games. But always worked on this idea of like

744
00:38:17,159 --> 00:38:21,360
there's going to be one host and however many players,

745
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:22,960
like a hundred players, Sure.

746
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 2: Whatever, there's one there's one game that supports like one

747
00:38:25,039 --> 00:38:27,519
hundred players. So I've used that one for like a

748
00:38:27,559 --> 00:38:29,719
team meeting where there was thirty something people and you

749
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,000
could yeah, fire. And this was part of the fun

750
00:38:32,039 --> 00:38:33,840
of doing this, was like, hey, we're gonna get to

751
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:35,639
some serious stuff, but let's play a game for twenty

752
00:38:35,639 --> 00:38:38,440
minutes first while everybody's getting in, you know, rather than

753
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:39,239
just sitting around.

754
00:38:39,599 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah.

755
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 3: And they finally, finally finally made something that it's a

756
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:49,119
little hacky, but like I have enough of those Jackbox

757
00:38:49,199 --> 00:38:51,480
packs now that like there's a thing called like the

758
00:38:51,599 --> 00:38:54,679
jack Box Launcher, right, so essentially like you bring up

759
00:38:54,679 --> 00:38:56,599
a thing and it has every game that you own,

760
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:58,679
and then when you click on the.

761
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, because there's like nine now, like I'm always hunting

762
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:03,960
for a particular game and I never remember which.

763
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 3: Pack it's really yeah yeah yeah, yeah, sorry commercial.

764
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:10,199
Speaker 1: I can't say that I ever played it.

765
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, that did the you talk about a perfect plua.

766
00:39:15,199 --> 00:39:17,559
Like you go to a web you go to I

767
00:39:17,559 --> 00:39:20,360
think it's Jackbox TV, Slash whatever code it is for

768
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:22,880
the game you're playing. It's generated on the spot. It

769
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,840
drops into a chrome less browser like it's just and

770
00:39:27,199 --> 00:39:29,719
it is so seamless you never remember.

771
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:30,159
Speaker 1: It's a web page.

772
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,760
Speaker 2: You just it is exactly whatever he developer should aspire

773
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,440
to wow in a client.

774
00:39:36,519 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, it works really simple, and because it is just

775
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,159
like you go to this Jackbox TV. You don't have

776
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,320
like I remember playing like Space Team, which is fun,

777
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,239
but like but in order to play that with friends,

778
00:39:49,519 --> 00:39:51,679
there's like four minutes of like, oh, you have to

779
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,360
go to this thing and download this thing and then okay,

780
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,440
we have to like whatever, Like, no, you go to

781
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:58,440
this u ur l, you punched in this code. You

782
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:02,440
know my my eighty three year old father like can

783
00:40:02,519 --> 00:40:03,519
do it and has.

784
00:40:03,599 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 2: Can get a comp Yeah, and doesn't matter what phone

785
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,480
you have or you're using a tablet or a second

786
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,559
screen on the PC, like you name it, all of it.

787
00:40:12,639 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 1: All of those scenarios just worked.

788
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 3: The one thing that it took them too long to

789
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:21,159
figure out, though, is and is it took them too

790
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,920
long to understand that as a PWA, you actually do

791
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,679
have access to weight control, right, because if you're playing

792
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:31,360
jack Box, a time can go by where you're just

793
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,679
not touching your phone, sure for a while. Yeah, and

794
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:38,239
so you know, my my thing goes to sleep pretty fast,

795
00:40:38,519 --> 00:40:41,840
and so sometimes you would be like using the thing

796
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:43,519
and then it would go to sleep, and then you

797
00:40:43,519 --> 00:40:45,239
would like turn your phone back on and maybe it

798
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:47,880
lost connection. You have to like reconnect or whatever. Yeah,

799
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,639
And eventually they got on top of that, but like

800
00:40:50,679 --> 00:40:52,239
it did take them a while where it was like.

801
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:54,559
Speaker 2: And it's something that PWA's can't do to say, hey,

802
00:40:54,559 --> 00:40:54,880
can you do?

803
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:55,800
Speaker 1: I don't want you to go to.

804
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 3: Sleep as long as you are properly installed. You can't

805
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:00,239
just do that from being a website. But as long

806
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,280
as you are installed, then you can get you can

807
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:05,400
request for and receive permission to control wake access to

808
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,239
basically be like, as long as my app is the

809
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,840
one that is in focus, override these sleep controls.

810
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 2: Okay, And it just seemed its interesting to think go

811
00:41:15,079 --> 00:41:17,599
through the power of getting you know, get past the

812
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,920
icon and get into these other capabilities, like you can

813
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:21,719
do quite a bit.

814
00:41:22,159 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, like like like the idea of like even like

815
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,360
one thing that I always found pretty useful is just

816
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,280
that like native sharing, to be able to say like

817
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,880
I've got my little blob or I've got my text

818
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:37,480
snippet or I've got my whatever, and I don't know

819
00:41:37,519 --> 00:41:40,679
what you have installed in your machine, but if you

820
00:41:40,679 --> 00:41:42,719
do have Telegram, you can click on this and then

821
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:44,559
it's like you want to share that via Telegram because

822
00:41:44,599 --> 00:41:45,000
there you go.

823
00:41:45,199 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think Jackbox even did that, like you

824
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:50,039
could take a screenshot off off the game from your

825
00:41:50,039 --> 00:41:51,519
phone and fire it up.

826
00:41:51,679 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, no, they they did. They did things where

827
00:41:54,119 --> 00:41:56,159
and this was this was later on, but they did

828
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,559
the thing where when you finish the game, you got

829
00:41:59,559 --> 00:42:03,119
like little and so it would like create like animated

830
00:42:03,159 --> 00:42:03,920
gifts of like.

831
00:42:04,039 --> 00:42:06,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, they gave out awards right for worst player and

832
00:42:06,599 --> 00:42:07,119
how kind of thing.

833
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly and so and so you know, we're able

834
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:12,639
to do a thing where you can I don't want

835
00:42:12,639 --> 00:42:15,079
to say the T word, but you know you could.

836
00:42:15,159 --> 00:42:19,239
You could post the thing on blue Sky, right and uh,

837
00:42:19,559 --> 00:42:21,320
you know that's that's smart for them. I don't know

838
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:22,719
how many people took advantage of it, but.

839
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:26,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's cool, absolutely all right. Should we change

840
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:27,400
gears a bit?

841
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 3: Absolutely?

842
00:42:28,599 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

843
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 2: I think I appreciate the sort of scope on that,

844
00:42:31,519 --> 00:42:34,800
and I do like PW PWA Builder, Like for folks

845
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:36,800
who are still trying to find their way through some

846
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:38,400
of these things are our tools that can help.

847
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:38,519
Speaker 1: You.

848
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:43,280
Speaker 2: Don't expect anybody isn't using PWA. All of these frameworks

849
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,119
use it to some degree. It's just a built in service.

850
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:50,000
It's great with Blazer web assembly perhaps. Yeah, yeah, that's

851
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,800
how I build mine. Sure, it's a nice template in there.

852
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:53,559
Speaker 1: Yeah.

853
00:42:53,559 --> 00:42:56,760
Speaker 3: I think that PWA builder is at least a very

854
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,719
good first step where like it'll give you your first

855
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,079
man and your first service worker. You know, that's probably

856
00:43:03,079 --> 00:43:04,719
not the one you're going to go with, but like

857
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:06,639
be the one to start with at.

858
00:43:06,559 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 2: Least get a feel for something what you're experimenting with.

859
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:11,800
All right, I want to talk about some of these

860
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,840
apps you build, these games and other as you co

861
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:18,400
refer to them, stupid websites. Yeah, are they just experiments

862
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:19,599
in software development for you?

863
00:43:19,639 --> 00:43:23,519
Speaker 3: They're bulls. I think there's there's two things that have

864
00:43:23,599 --> 00:43:27,039
to come together in order for one of these things

865
00:43:27,039 --> 00:43:30,239
to get off the ground. Actually a third thing is

866
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:33,840
that it has to be interesting until the end. But

867
00:43:34,079 --> 00:43:39,760
like there's got to be some sort of idea. For example,

868
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,800
Like one that I've abandoned more than once was like

869
00:43:43,559 --> 00:43:46,480
bop it the website You know what to bop it is?

870
00:43:46,559 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 1: Right?

871
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:47,320
Speaker 3: Little now?

872
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 1: What is that now?

873
00:43:48,159 --> 00:43:51,119
Speaker 3: So it's a little plastic piece of crap that they'll

874
00:43:51,159 --> 00:43:55,519
sell it, you know, Walmart or whatever. And and it's

875
00:43:55,559 --> 00:43:57,599
got like a little switch and a knob and a

876
00:43:57,679 --> 00:44:00,440
turney thing and a button or whatever. And then when

877
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,880
you start the game, it goes like bop it persia.

878
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:06,519
And then like you have these like actions that you're

879
00:44:06,519 --> 00:44:09,519
supposed to do and it and so you you know,

880
00:44:09,559 --> 00:44:12,280
you're supposed to do the right action under a time limit.

881
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 1: So since the tariffs, the price has gone from ninety

882
00:44:14,559 --> 00:44:16,280
nine cents to ninety nine dollars, right.

883
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:20,559
Speaker 3: I would assume, So yeah, yeah, So my idea was

884
00:44:20,679 --> 00:44:23,679
to do something where like you go to a site

885
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:27,400
that is bad I sort of modeled after ABC News,

886
00:44:28,039 --> 00:44:31,039
and the very first thing that happens is that it

887
00:44:31,159 --> 00:44:36,559
pulls up like a GDPR banner and it goes dismiss it,

888
00:44:37,159 --> 00:44:40,480
and then like, uh, like a you have you have

889
00:44:40,519 --> 00:44:43,000
a time limit to dismiss it. And then once you

890
00:44:43,119 --> 00:44:45,760
do it, then it says like follow us on Instagram,

891
00:44:46,039 --> 00:44:49,639
like a little modal comes up close it, and so

892
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:53,199
it just so it's trying to give you a task

893
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:57,639
to solve, but while you're doing it, you're like it

894
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:02,679
keeps annoying you and and you lose points every millisecond

895
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:08,119
that this annoyance happens. So anyway, I was building this thing,

896
00:45:08,159 --> 00:45:09,519
and I was like, ah, you know, this is a

897
00:45:09,559 --> 00:45:12,760
cool idea, but it's so big on scope and and

898
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:17,400
it's a little hard to like to let people understand

899
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:19,960
like whether where the fun is and so just trying

900
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,480
to figure out like that thing where like it's like

901
00:45:24,039 --> 00:45:27,440
it's it's immediately cognizably fun, like the one that I

902
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:29,599
did with the there's one that I made where you

903
00:45:29,639 --> 00:45:33,440
have to like rank different celebrities based on their cameo values,

904
00:45:33,679 --> 00:45:40,639
like how how expensive is this person on cameo and

905
00:45:40,639 --> 00:45:42,960
and so so essentially, I want to have an idea

906
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:45,760
that like that is sticky and that I can kind

907
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,360
of like get in and get out pretty easy. Hopefully

908
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,039
it takes like four minutes to play. And then the

909
00:45:51,079 --> 00:45:53,400
other thing that I wanted to do is something where

910
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:57,440
there's something I haven't done here before. There's some sort

911
00:45:57,559 --> 00:46:03,320
of you know, like new interface element or or like

912
00:46:04,039 --> 00:46:07,519
new piece of technology that's just unfamiliar to me, so

913
00:46:07,559 --> 00:46:09,480
that I can like use this in a safe space

914
00:46:09,559 --> 00:46:12,760
to be like, if it doesn't work, who cares? And

915
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:14,719
if it does work, then I've learned how to do

916
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:15,119
that thing.

917
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:17,119
Speaker 1: Yeah. How many of these things do you have?

918
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 3: Conservatively? About a dozen? Okay, yeah, let's say a dozen.

919
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm stuck on the not poutine side.

920
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:33,679
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, okay, gonna tell you that's nottine.

921
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 3: I was watching. I don't know if you've watched Top

922
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:39,480
Chef at all?

923
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 1: Sure? Oh yeah, Top Chef Canada is the latest one.

924
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 3: Dude, Yes, exactly so they were just in Canada and

925
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:49,079
they were like, hey, chefs, uh, you're all gonna be

926
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:52,400
doing like a poutine challenge. And I'm like, oh no,

927
00:46:52,679 --> 00:46:56,360
don't make them do that. And like like one guy

928
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:59,519
like did like a like a like a like a

929
00:46:59,599 --> 00:47:02,400
scale in pancakes and a burnet sauce.

930
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:04,079
Speaker 1: I know, that's ridiculous.

931
00:47:04,519 --> 00:47:06,519
Speaker 3: I was like, this is unacceptable.

932
00:47:06,559 --> 00:47:08,880
Speaker 1: So so yeah, like you know what that's like, that's

933
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,800
like taking a Prince solo and just and and instead

934
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,599
of playing it no for note, making up your own stuff.

935
00:47:16,079 --> 00:47:16,880
That's what it's like.

936
00:47:17,079 --> 00:47:21,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's it's an infuriated like like

937
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:27,320
the idea of poutine has three three ingredients that must

938
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,920
be observed, and at that point you want to throw

939
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:31,960
pork belly on it.

940
00:47:32,039 --> 00:47:34,320
Speaker 1: I know, Okay, go ahead, yeah yeah.

941
00:47:34,079 --> 00:47:37,199
Speaker 3: Like you wanna, yeah, you want to throw some scallions

942
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:41,199
in there? Cool, whatever, But like French fries, fresh cheese curds,

943
00:47:41,199 --> 00:47:43,159
do not fry them.

944
00:47:42,559 --> 00:47:46,360
Speaker 5: Squeaky cheese curds, squeaky cheese curds, squeaky cheese, And then

945
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,119
you need some and then you need brown gravy, yes,

946
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:52,519
and and so so this the whole thing was like,

947
00:47:53,159 --> 00:47:55,840
was just this collection, and some of them very much

948
00:47:55,840 --> 00:48:00,480
are Canadian places that are servingdes that.

949
00:48:00,599 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 3: Purport to be uh poutine but aren't.

950
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 1: Right.

951
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:07,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean love it. You can go back and

952
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:10,159
forth on the tater tots or tater tots fries.

953
00:48:10,199 --> 00:48:12,880
Speaker 1: I would let that slide, you would, Yeah, I would,

954
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:16,000
because it's still fried potatoes. It's still fried, but just

955
00:48:16,039 --> 00:48:17,079
in a different shape.

956
00:48:17,159 --> 00:48:20,639
Speaker 3: I don't know, Like, okay, well, okay, but where is

957
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:21,679
where is too far?

958
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,599
Speaker 1: Then? Like is where's the line? I wouldn't substitute broccoli?

959
00:48:25,639 --> 00:48:27,079
Speaker 3: Are you accepting home fries?

960
00:48:27,599 --> 00:48:30,719
Speaker 1: No? Because home fries. Home fries is kind of like

961
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:34,760
a oh yeah, home fries is potatoes and onions and

962
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:38,119
all that stuff like mashed up in a mush. Right?

963
00:48:38,519 --> 00:48:44,039
Where are different? Are are our single units that you

964
00:48:44,039 --> 00:48:46,239
can pick up with a fork instead of scooping up

965
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,639
and whatever? Hash browns are the are the opposite of

966
00:48:49,679 --> 00:48:53,360
home fries. Those are the crispy patterns of potatoes. I

967
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:57,159
don't know as if I would do that either, because

968
00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:59,039
now you have to cut it right. I mean, the

969
00:48:59,079 --> 00:49:01,280
whole idea of a poutin is you could stab it

970
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:02,559
with a fork and put it in your mouth.

971
00:49:03,119 --> 00:49:06,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it is cheap, but you know there's

972
00:49:06,119 --> 00:49:08,599
a great stretch between it's tough to difn a difference

973
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:10,360
a potater tot and a roasty.

974
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:11,079
Speaker 3: Yeah.

975
00:49:11,159 --> 00:49:12,440
Speaker 1: I don't even know what a roasty is.

976
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:14,639
Speaker 2: What's that they think you're describing as a hash brown?

977
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 1: Is that?

978
00:49:15,079 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 6: Oh?

979
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:16,119
Speaker 1: Okay? Hash brown?

980
00:49:16,199 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a roasty okay, but you know the main

981
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:19,559
thing is the crispy.

982
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 1: Yeah.

983
00:49:20,039 --> 00:49:22,079
Speaker 2: And to be clear, we're arguing over food you eat

984
00:49:22,119 --> 00:49:24,639
while drunk in Montreal, right, like absolutely?

985
00:49:27,519 --> 00:49:31,599
Speaker 3: Yeah? Like like has every has every poucine that I've

986
00:49:31,599 --> 00:49:33,360
ever eaten been delicious? Yes?

987
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 1: But that's because yes it was. I was I qualified

988
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:41,199
to a set at the time. No, yeah, if it

989
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:43,079
was broccoli and Berne's sauce.

990
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:49,360
Speaker 3: Like every every donor I've ever eaten is great, and

991
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,039
I don't think I've ever eaten a donor before midnight.

992
00:49:52,159 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 1: I don't know what a donor is. You guys got

993
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:57,840
to educate me here, like a kebab or a like

994
00:49:57,960 --> 00:49:59,840
d O N N E R that kind of thing

995
00:50:00,039 --> 00:50:02,440
c O N They are Yeah, yeah, they are all right.

996
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:08,679
Speaker 2: The varying the name, the spelling exactly got it. The

997
00:50:09,039 --> 00:50:12,480
drunk food you ate in Stockholm after midnight or anywhere.

998
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, here we have we don't have those, you know,

999
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,239
twenty four hour diners around where I live anymore. There.

1000
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:25,559
Your only choices are Taco Bell and McDonald's, Wendy's, Burger King, Popeyes.

1001
00:50:25,679 --> 00:50:27,000
That's it. Late nights.

1002
00:50:27,159 --> 00:50:30,679
Speaker 3: It's just I remember, like I remember at one point

1003
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:34,679
that's however, many of us and we're in Oslo and

1004
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:38,920
we go to this donor place, eat donor. It's wonderful. Uh.

1005
00:50:39,039 --> 00:50:41,320
Then we continue to go out drinking. We go back,

1006
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:43,119
and then as we're on our way back to the hotel,

1007
00:50:43,119 --> 00:50:46,360
it's like, let's get donor again. Yeah, of course the

1008
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:49,320
donor place that we went to is closed, but there's

1009
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:51,880
a donor place right next to it, like literally next

1010
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:56,119
door that is open. And it was worse, but like

1011
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:56,880
you know, it's still.

1012
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,360
Speaker 1: Don't I know which places you're talking exactly. It's rich

1013
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:01,159
and rich and I have been there.

1014
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:03,840
Speaker 3: And like we're talking to him at one point and

1015
00:51:04,119 --> 00:51:07,320
it's like he's like the guy was like, yeah, we

1016
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:11,440
open at one because we found out these knuckleheads like

1017
00:51:11,559 --> 00:51:14,639
close at one, like you're leaving money on the table.

1018
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:17,679
Speaker 1: People don't go to bed at one in Oslo.

1019
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 3: Exactly on Saturday night.

1020
00:51:20,599 --> 00:51:26,840
Speaker 1: It's just a mistake. When are you thinking, what was

1021
00:51:27,679 --> 00:51:33,039
the best your best pub comp talk in your opinion?

1022
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:39,480
Speaker 3: Oh man, So this requires a slight backstory. I'll try to.

1023
00:51:39,519 --> 00:51:42,599
I'll try to, I'll try to speed through it. But

1024
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:49,880
I'm doing NBC Minnesota. And and I had this idea,

1025
00:51:50,079 --> 00:51:52,239
and I had this really ambitious talk that I was

1026
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:59,800
going to do, and I was terrible, legitimately terrible, like

1027
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:03,840
just a bad talk, Like insofar as like you know,

1028
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:06,760
how there's there's for those who don't know that there's

1029
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:09,159
NDC will do a thing where they have like red

1030
00:52:09,199 --> 00:52:12,960
and yellow and green cards, so like people will score

1031
00:52:13,119 --> 00:52:15,719
like how well you did? And so as I'm sort

1032
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:17,440
of collecting my things at the end of the talk,

1033
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:20,679
and I know, I know this didn't go well.

1034
00:52:21,519 --> 00:52:23,920
Speaker 1: This isn't a PUBCNS talk. This is a regular talk.

1035
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 3: No, this is NDC.

1036
00:52:25,119 --> 00:52:26,400
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, okay.

1037
00:52:26,639 --> 00:52:29,639
Speaker 3: And and as I'm sort of collecting my things and

1038
00:52:29,679 --> 00:52:33,039
sort of, you know, being shell shocked, one of the

1039
00:52:33,119 --> 00:52:37,960
volunteers walks up to me. He's collected all the cards,

1040
00:52:38,639 --> 00:52:40,320
and he goes that, do you not want to know

1041
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:45,079
how you did? And I'm like what, and he goes, you.

1042
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:50,760
Speaker 1: Did bad, and he holds up a stack of red cards.

1043
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:56,519
Speaker 3: Right, thanks for looking out, But I appreciate that. So

1044
00:52:56,639 --> 00:53:00,239
I I mean, yeah, so I you know, I'm in

1045
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:02,559
Saint Paul, which is close enough to my home that

1046
00:53:02,639 --> 00:53:04,679
I don't have a hotel, but far enough away that

1047
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:06,639
like in order to get back and come back would

1048
00:53:06,679 --> 00:53:10,239
be inconvenient. Yeah, And so I just like spend you know,

1049
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:14,280
several hours like having a panic attack, and then but

1050
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:19,440
I need to do a pubcom talk after that, and

1051
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:21,119
and so I'm just you know, sort of like in

1052
00:53:21,159 --> 00:53:26,119
a weird place. And and and as it's starting off,

1053
00:53:26,159 --> 00:53:28,199
I'm like still in a weird place. And then the

1054
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:33,079
moment I get handed the microphone to do my five minutes,

1055
00:53:33,559 --> 00:53:36,360
like I was just like, okay, yep, I absolutely have this.

1056
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:40,880
I I yep, this is I'm going to kill these

1057
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:44,519
people for five minutes. And so I did this talk

1058
00:53:44,559 --> 00:53:47,960
about how to please your VP by hating your user,

1059
00:53:50,199 --> 00:53:53,079
and it was just like it was just like what

1060
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:57,920
if every suggestion that your VP made you just did.

1061
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:01,360
And so we started we show a website and then

1062
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:03,280
the website just gets worse and worse because like I

1063
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:05,519
keep saying yes to him, you know when he kind

1064
00:54:05,519 --> 00:54:07,519
of like points at the screen. I'm like, yep, absolutely

1065
00:54:07,559 --> 00:54:15,239
boss right, and uh yeah, and so that went so good,

1066
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:17,440
like so so good.

1067
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:20,239
Speaker 1: Honestly one I did.

1068
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:22,599
Speaker 3: I did win. Yeah, but I'm like, I'm not I'm

1069
00:54:22,639 --> 00:54:25,760
not exaggerating that. Like people were literally chanting my name.

1070
00:54:26,079 --> 00:54:27,199
Speaker 1: Wow. Wow.

1071
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:31,199
Speaker 3: There was a point where John Mills in the final

1072
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:35,079
So this the the you do the sort of your

1073
00:54:35,079 --> 00:54:37,320
prepared version of then you do a version that's not prepared.

1074
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:40,199
And so there was a there was a point where

1075
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:45,960
I do my final performance and then after me is

1076
00:54:46,079 --> 00:54:49,480
John Mills, and like he does a joke and it

1077
00:54:49,559 --> 00:54:51,400
lands pretty good. He loves a joke and it lands

1078
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:54,159
not quite as good, and he goes, listen, folks, I'm

1079
00:54:54,199 --> 00:54:56,840
just trying to get in second here. Okay, we just

1080
00:54:56,920 --> 00:54:57,280
let me.

1081
00:54:57,239 --> 00:55:04,039
Speaker 1: Get in here. This is gonna go. You know, something

1082
00:55:04,079 --> 00:55:06,760
just occurred to me. You you have a you're a

1083
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:11,079
doppel ganger of Michael Keaton? Am I wrong? Has anybody

1084
00:55:11,119 --> 00:55:14,239
ever said you look like Michael Keaton? I've never heard that.

1085
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:15,960
I mean before Beetlejuice.

1086
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:19,920
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, before both Beatle Juice.

1087
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:23,159
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, when he was younger, right, Okay, you look

1088
00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:25,679
like a young version of Michael Keat's the eyebrows, I think.

1089
00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:29,280
Speaker 3: All right, I mean I'm gonna I've never heard that really,

1090
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:33,000
so no, yeah, yeah, I got I got for years

1091
00:55:33,039 --> 00:55:34,960
and years, I got Jack White a lot.

1092
00:55:36,199 --> 00:55:37,880
Speaker 1: Okay, but yeah.

1093
00:55:37,599 --> 00:55:39,199
Speaker 3: He started to kind of start to look like Ho

1094
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:39,920
Chi minh.

1095
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 1: And sorry, yeah he went through different looks. Yeah. Yeah,

1096
00:55:43,559 --> 00:55:46,280
Well anyway, let mean, it's been a pleasure talking to

1097
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:48,079
you and hanging out. I wish we could do it

1098
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:51,719
all the time. You know, I'm available, Let's do it

1099
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:54,440
and for longer. And I know our listeners really loved it.

1100
00:55:54,519 --> 00:55:57,639
So thank you, oh, thank you both. All right, and

1101
00:55:57,679 --> 00:56:23,079
we'll talk to you next time on dot rocks dot net.

1102
00:56:23,159 --> 00:56:26,119
Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced

1103
00:56:26,119 --> 00:56:29,880
by Pop Studios, a full service audio, video and post

1104
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:34,119
production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, and of

1105
00:56:34,159 --> 00:56:38,599
course in the cloud online at pwop dot com.

1106
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 6: Visit our website at d O T N E t

1107
00:56:41,199 --> 00:56:45,199
R O c k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads,

1108
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:49,039
mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives going

1109
00:56:49,079 --> 00:56:52,480
back to show number one, recorded in September two thousand

1110
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:55,159
and two, and make sure you check out our sponsors.

1111
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:58,320
Speaker 1: They keep us in business. Now go write some code,

1112
00:56:58,639 --> 00:56:59,400
See you next time.

1113
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:02,760
Speaker 5: Chapters Middle Vans Day

1114
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:10,039
Speaker 1: A summer time that mess hard than my taxes in

1115
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:10,639
line