WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.760 --> 00:00:08.919 You're listening to an air wave media podcast. It's actually 2 00:00:09.039 --> 00:00:11.160 quite unlike anything we've ever seen before. 3 00:00:13.279 --> 00:00:14.800 A giant, very creature. 4 00:00:15.119 --> 00:00:19.519 Part eight part masts in Luckness, a twenty four a 5 00:00:19.519 --> 00:00:22.160 mile long bottomless lake in the Highlands of Scotland. 6 00:00:22.480 --> 00:00:47.920 It's a creature known as the Luckness Monster Monstertle. 7 00:00:49.240 --> 00:00:52.039 Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm 8 00:00:52.079 --> 00:00:54.960 Blake Smith. Today we're going to continue our series on 9 00:00:55.039 --> 00:00:57.399 magic because I want to talk about some famous people 10 00:00:57.399 --> 00:00:59.679 within that area of study. But I feel like there's 11 00:00:59.719 --> 00:01:02.520 two much legend and lore surrounding some of these figures 12 00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:05.680 that doesn't give them their proper historical context. So in 13 00:01:05.719 --> 00:01:08.799 this episode, we're going to begin a conversation with religious 14 00:01:08.799 --> 00:01:12.840 studies expert John crow about theosophy, but we'll be touching 15 00:01:12.879 --> 00:01:16.200 on spiritualism, Masonic rites and many other topics. Our goal 16 00:01:16.239 --> 00:01:18.480 here is to get to the life of Alistair Crowley, 17 00:01:18.920 --> 00:01:20.519 but before we can do that, I think we need 18 00:01:20.560 --> 00:01:23.239 to understand the world he grew up in. Also, just 19 00:01:23.280 --> 00:01:26.599 a quick note, I believe his name is pronounced Crowley, 20 00:01:27.159 --> 00:01:31.040 As Robert Anton Wilson constantly reminds me, it's supposed to 21 00:01:31.120 --> 00:01:35.280 run with holy but at some points during the interview, 22 00:01:35.319 --> 00:01:37.920 I do say, Crowley, my apologies, but I can't get 23 00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:41.359 that Ozzy Osbourne song out of my head anyway. A 24 00:01:41.439 --> 00:01:44.439 bit of quick sad Monster News. We want to note 25 00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:47.760 the passing of doctor John Bindernagel, a biologist who spent 26 00:01:47.799 --> 00:01:51.200 many years researching Bigfoot stories. I had the chance to 27 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:53.319 exchange a few emails with him, and he was always 28 00:01:53.359 --> 00:01:55.760 very polite and friendly. And while I never met him 29 00:01:55.760 --> 00:01:58.040 in person, I certainly had come to know him by 30 00:01:58.079 --> 00:02:00.480 way of his many documentary and book apparent is so 31 00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:04.719 rest in peace, doctor binder Nagel. Now let's learn more 32 00:02:04.760 --> 00:02:07.840 about the strange history of esoteric beliefs in Western culture 33 00:02:08.280 --> 00:02:13.639 with John crow Orange Tutle. Welcome to Monster Talk, John Crowe. 34 00:02:14.319 --> 00:02:16.520 I don't think my listeners, well, some of them might 35 00:02:16.560 --> 00:02:19.719 know you, but would you mind doing an introduction for yourself? 36 00:02:20.439 --> 00:02:26.800 Absolutely. I have a background in religious studies, and so 37 00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:32.159 I've actually got a master's degree in Western esotericism from 38 00:02:32.840 --> 00:02:37.360 the University of Amsterdam, at which I wrote a thesis 39 00:02:37.439 --> 00:02:41.919 looking at the history of occultism and focusing in particular 40 00:02:42.159 --> 00:02:46.479 on the relationship between theosophy occultism in the person of 41 00:02:46.599 --> 00:02:50.280 Alan Bennett, who was Alistair Crowley's teacher in the Golden 42 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:53.840 Dawn and who later became a Buddhist monk and tried 43 00:02:53.840 --> 00:02:59.000 to bring Buddhism to England. And then I got my 44 00:02:59.639 --> 00:03:05.080 PhD at Florida State University in Religious studies American religious history, 45 00:03:05.479 --> 00:03:10.960 focusing on Theosophy again and how Eastern traditions came into 46 00:03:11.000 --> 00:03:14.560 the United States, with a particular method of looking at 47 00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:17.840 the interaction between religion and science and how that played 48 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:20.520 out in the human body and how people define their bodies. 49 00:03:20.560 --> 00:03:24.680 So I've had a long history of looking at the 50 00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:30.400 subject of occultism, how it arose, the kind of influences 51 00:03:30.400 --> 00:03:34.680 that had in Western culture, and particular people within the tradition, 52 00:03:35.439 --> 00:03:41.000 especially in Theosophy, Golden Dawn and the Tholemic current. 53 00:03:41.560 --> 00:03:45.280 Which so for our listeners, the reason I've asked you 54 00:03:45.360 --> 00:03:48.120 to come and join us today for this episode is 55 00:03:48.159 --> 00:03:51.520 to talk about Well, initially I contacted you in regards 56 00:03:51.560 --> 00:03:53.879 to Alistair Crowley. I asked, Joe Laycock if you knew 57 00:03:53.919 --> 00:03:55.879 anybody who would be a good person to talk to, 58 00:03:56.360 --> 00:04:00.240 and I was Crowley is such an interesting figure you're 59 00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:04.360 in the history of magic that I just didn't feel 60 00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:07.879 like I could find a good sort of neutral authority 61 00:04:07.960 --> 00:04:10.439 or I wasn't able to on my own and to 62 00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:14.639 refer me to you, but you, I don't think it's coincidence, 63 00:04:14.719 --> 00:04:17.759 But because it's the same sort of related topics, you 64 00:04:17.800 --> 00:04:23.120 also have a really nice understanding and education about the 65 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:25.639 sort of context of Crowley within. 66 00:04:25.759 --> 00:04:27.439 The whole history of esotericism. 67 00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:30.879 And I wanted to be able to give Crowley context, 68 00:04:31.199 --> 00:04:33.800 and you really seem well suited to do that. So 69 00:04:33.839 --> 00:04:35.439 I'm hoping that we can sort of talk through that 70 00:04:35.839 --> 00:04:41.279 and understand who he was and his impact on magic 71 00:04:41.399 --> 00:04:44.279 and really on sort of pop culture, as well as 72 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:49.000 how he fit into this. I don't know what to 73 00:04:49.040 --> 00:04:55.560 colleaguescept esotericism, occultism, this trend that happened at least from 74 00:04:55.560 --> 00:04:58.839 my perspective from the mid eighteen hundreds into the early 75 00:04:58.879 --> 00:05:01.600 twentieth century to really still be going on in a 76 00:05:01.639 --> 00:05:02.199 lot of ways. 77 00:05:02.319 --> 00:05:07.000 So absolutely, yeah, I mean his influences still felt today. 78 00:05:07.079 --> 00:05:11.040 I mean you can google his name or his books 79 00:05:11.079 --> 00:05:14.959 on Amazon and they're still widely available and people still 80 00:05:14.959 --> 00:05:18.519 make a lot of reference to him. He's especially influential 81 00:05:18.639 --> 00:05:25.000 in various kinds of artistic endeavors, music, visual art, film theater. 82 00:05:25.560 --> 00:05:28.000 So you know he has a long legacy. 83 00:05:28.720 --> 00:05:33.800 All right, Well, let's get started with the sort of 84 00:05:33.839 --> 00:05:36.040 to give it context, the sort of the rise of 85 00:05:36.040 --> 00:05:39.720 occultism in Western Europe. Where did this come from? Like, 86 00:05:40.360 --> 00:05:43.279 why did this happen? What's the source of all this? 87 00:05:44.600 --> 00:05:49.680 Well, I think if we look at occultism in its origins, 88 00:05:51.040 --> 00:05:55.519 as many of your guests have pointed out, these phenomena, 89 00:05:55.680 --> 00:06:00.639 these ways of seeing the world go way way back 90 00:06:00.839 --> 00:06:05.399 in human history. Occultism, in many ways is just the 91 00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:10.639 modern manifestation of these esoteric currents, in particular the one 92 00:06:10.639 --> 00:06:14.680 that kind of arose out of the negotiation with science 93 00:06:14.959 --> 00:06:19.399 in the nineteenth century. I would say occultism doesn't even 94 00:06:19.480 --> 00:06:22.160 go back to the early modern period, where we see 95 00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:30.279 the shift from a kind of natural philosophy responding to 96 00:06:31.240 --> 00:06:35.480 Protestantism and the Reformation, and so you start to see 97 00:06:35.639 --> 00:06:38.800 different ways of looking at the world. You don't have 98 00:06:38.959 --> 00:06:44.079 science yet, this doesn't exist, but you have new ways 99 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:50.040 of looking at the relationship between the divine and the 100 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:54.040 world around us. Prior to the early modern period and 101 00:06:54.120 --> 00:07:00.639 when natural philosophy was predominant, there was this assumed relationship 102 00:07:00.680 --> 00:07:05.600 between the divine the celestial realm and the physical realm. 103 00:07:06.079 --> 00:07:08.199 And then when we start getting into the early modern 104 00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:10.519 period with a lot of the people that we think 105 00:07:10.560 --> 00:07:14.160 about Bacon and so forth, they start saying, well, what's 106 00:07:14.199 --> 00:07:17.839 the best way to investigate these things? And so they 107 00:07:17.879 --> 00:07:24.639 start figuring out different kinds of methods induction and testing 108 00:07:24.720 --> 00:07:27.959 and things like that, and so you get protoscience there, 109 00:07:28.399 --> 00:07:32.399 but you really don't get the full flourishing of what 110 00:07:32.439 --> 00:07:36.759 we would call science until you get into the nineteenth century. 111 00:07:36.800 --> 00:07:42.759 I mean, the term scientists wasn't coined until the eighteen thirties, 112 00:07:44.079 --> 00:07:54.600 so it's really this modern notion of testability, reproducibility, objectivity, 113 00:07:54.199 --> 00:07:57.199 that people could trust their senses. That was also an 114 00:07:57.199 --> 00:08:01.360 important development in the scientific method, is that people could 115 00:08:01.399 --> 00:08:07.759 actually believe what they see, and that objectivity depends upon 116 00:08:07.839 --> 00:08:11.399 the reliability of our senses. And this was not always 117 00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:14.959 taken to be true. So there was a lot of 118 00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:19.759 small pieces that were developing at different times that all 119 00:08:19.800 --> 00:08:22.040 came together. And we also need to keep in mind 120 00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:24.519 that even the science that arose in the nineteenth century, 121 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:28.399 the scientific method that they use, even going back to 122 00:08:28.439 --> 00:08:31.279 Curley where he talks about the method of science, the 123 00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:34.960 aim of religion. The method that they were using in 124 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:38.960 the nineteenth century would not be acceptable to science today. 125 00:08:40.200 --> 00:08:42.600 And if we talk about spiritualism in the kind of 126 00:08:43.320 --> 00:08:47.720 impulse to test spiritualism, the kinds of testings that they 127 00:08:47.759 --> 00:08:52.840 were doing the experiments in the eighteen fifties, when scientists 128 00:08:52.919 --> 00:08:57.559 look at those notes, diagrams, descriptions and results today, they 129 00:08:57.720 --> 00:09:01.720 don't find them reliable, as the kinds of methods that 130 00:09:01.720 --> 00:09:05.679 they use that at the time was science is not 131 00:09:06.919 --> 00:09:10.720 acceptable today. So we really should understand that this is 132 00:09:10.759 --> 00:09:14.919 an evolving method in an evolving way of looking at 133 00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:18.200 the world, and we should be reticent about taking our 134 00:09:18.639 --> 00:09:22.480 frames of reference and our terms that we use now 135 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:26.519 and projecting them backwards in time, because it really distorts 136 00:09:26.759 --> 00:09:31.360 and misrepresents the way people thought and acted and saw 137 00:09:31.399 --> 00:09:32.960 the world around them. 138 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:35.919 So I think maybe for our listeners it might be 139 00:09:36.039 --> 00:09:38.840 a good idea to give a little a few examples 140 00:09:38.879 --> 00:09:40.679 of what I'm at least what I'm thinking about. So 141 00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:46.679 we've got there are secret societies or clue societies like 142 00:09:46.799 --> 00:09:51.440 the Masons, and then there was an I guess at 143 00:09:51.480 --> 00:09:54.600 one point an actual group called the Illuminati, which existed 144 00:09:54.720 --> 00:09:56.840 I guess at least for a little while with Weisshoft, 145 00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:02.240 and then you have in the mid eighteen hundreds you 146 00:10:02.279 --> 00:10:05.360 get the rise of spiritualism, and we can talk about 147 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:08.519 that a little bit, but that was I guess, a 148 00:10:08.559 --> 00:10:12.039 combination of religious and social movement in some sense. Then 149 00:10:12.360 --> 00:10:16.840 we also have the rise of Theosophy, and by the 150 00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:19.120 end of the eighteen hundreds, I want to talk a 151 00:10:19.159 --> 00:10:22.919 little bit about things like the Golden Dawn and the Oto, 152 00:10:23.639 --> 00:10:26.879 and then eventually from there we'll move into Crawley, got it. 153 00:10:27.039 --> 00:10:31.200 But there's a lot of terms and groups to throw 154 00:10:31.240 --> 00:10:34.679 out the name of. But when we talked before a 155 00:10:34.679 --> 00:10:36.759 little bit before this interview, I didn't think about the 156 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:39.559 impact of Masonic groups, but I think maybe we should 157 00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:40.360 miss in those as well. 158 00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:46.879 Absolutely, okay, So we get the rise of speculative masonry 159 00:10:47.039 --> 00:10:51.519 in the seventeen hundreds, as you noted, but we really 160 00:10:51.559 --> 00:10:54.480 want to make sure we understand that there are different 161 00:10:54.480 --> 00:10:59.679 types of masonry arising at different times. So the masonry 162 00:10:59.720 --> 00:11:04.080 that rises in England in the early seventeen hundreds and 163 00:11:04.240 --> 00:11:09.080 is brought to the colonies is what's called today blue 164 00:11:09.120 --> 00:11:12.559 lodge masonry. It's the first three degrees and that is 165 00:11:12.679 --> 00:11:16.960 the standard masonry that everybody knows that anybody who's a 166 00:11:17.000 --> 00:11:20.679 mason will have gone through those three degrees, and there 167 00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:24.799 the degrees make a person a master mason. Now, in 168 00:11:24.919 --> 00:11:28.480 current freemasonry, once you're a master Mason, you can go 169 00:11:28.519 --> 00:11:32.879 in different directions, do York right, Scottish Rite, follow those through, 170 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:36.720 and you could even get to other rights outside of 171 00:11:36.919 --> 00:11:40.639 masonry propers such as the Shriners and so forth. But 172 00:11:41.320 --> 00:11:47.399 when masonry first came to the colonies and spread, it 173 00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:52.919 was these first three degrees. Meanwhile, you have in Germany 174 00:11:52.919 --> 00:11:57.639 and South Germany, Weishaupt, as you noted, was anti Catholic, 175 00:11:58.519 --> 00:12:01.840 anti the the powers that be, and so he tried 176 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:06.440 to create a group and that eventually was found out 177 00:12:06.519 --> 00:12:12.159 and it was suppressed. So the connection between the two 178 00:12:12.200 --> 00:12:15.840 and why people still think that the Illuminati exists and 179 00:12:15.879 --> 00:12:19.679 so forth, is due to this book by a guy 180 00:12:19.759 --> 00:12:22.759 called Robinson. Are you familiar with this history? 181 00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:24.840 Even if I were, I think we should probably go 182 00:12:24.840 --> 00:12:25.480 ahead and explain it. 183 00:12:25.559 --> 00:12:32.000 Okay, So people are familiar with Morse code Samuel Morris, 184 00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:38.440 but his father was a minister in Massachusetts named Jedediah Morse, 185 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:44.759 and Jededi Morse discovered a book by John Robinson called 186 00:12:44.799 --> 00:12:48.360 Proofs of a Conspiracy against all religions and governments of Europe, 187 00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:52.879 carried on in the secret meetings of Freemason's Illuminati and 188 00:12:52.960 --> 00:12:59.080 reading society. Yeah, this book is widely available online. You 189 00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:02.759 can go to something like archive dot org and download 190 00:13:02.759 --> 00:13:06.039 a PDF of it, or Google Books or something. It's 191 00:13:06.159 --> 00:13:11.039 widely available, but at the time it was only available 192 00:13:11.080 --> 00:13:15.960 in certain cities that were getting shipments from the UK. 193 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:19.879 And Robinson got a copy of this read it and 194 00:13:20.200 --> 00:13:26.559 he was deeply moved that there was a conspiracy against Republicanism. 195 00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:30.399 And so he started preaching from his pulpit about this 196 00:13:30.519 --> 00:13:35.559 conspiracy and he started going and making speeches to Masons. 197 00:13:36.360 --> 00:13:40.600 And the one thing that Robinson was doing was he 198 00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:45.559 was seeing what we now call Scottish Rite freemasonry. And 199 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:51.320 this is the issue with communication. At the time, we 200 00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:56.799 have almost instant communication, but in the seventeen hundreds that 201 00:13:56.960 --> 00:14:02.000 wasn't the case. So you had developing in France Scottish 202 00:14:02.039 --> 00:14:04.519 Rite free masonry. I know it sounds strange that it 203 00:14:04.600 --> 00:14:07.720 developed in France, but it did, and it did not 204 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:12.559 make its way to England directly. It actually had a 205 00:14:12.679 --> 00:14:16.759 very securitoiust route of going through the Caribbean, through South Carolina, 206 00:14:17.240 --> 00:14:21.440 New York, and then finally to the UK. And so 207 00:14:21.919 --> 00:14:26.200 you end up having this situation where in continental Europe 208 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:30.360 they're practicing these extended degrees of masonry. Those extended degrees 209 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:33.879 of masonry come to the United States, but they're not 210 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:37.919 in the UK yet, and so you have Morris asking 211 00:14:38.039 --> 00:14:44.519 masons about these degrees and they don't know anything about them. 212 00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:48.960 He starts showing pamphlets and of these degrees that were 213 00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:54.279 from France. Again nobody knows anything about them. So he 214 00:14:54.399 --> 00:14:59.519 starts claiming that there's this big conspiracy. He publishes pamphlets 215 00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:06.600 and these can be googled. They're all Scottish right freemasonry, 216 00:15:06.679 --> 00:15:11.799 and so it's a real confusion about what's going on. 217 00:15:12.279 --> 00:15:16.159 But it sets this foundation for claims that the Illuminati 218 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:20.919 still exists. And so it's really from this book Miscommunication 219 00:15:21.679 --> 00:15:26.919 and Suspicion, which has been present in American society from 220 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:32.360 the beginning, this suspicion of government, of suppression and so forth, 221 00:15:32.399 --> 00:15:37.679 that sets the foundation for this Illuminati conspiracy and builds 222 00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:43.120 on freemasonry. Well, what's also happening in parallel with this 223 00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:49.840 freemasonry is the rise of additional rights. Instead of just 224 00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:53.120 your and Scottish right, which are traditional masonry today, you 225 00:15:53.159 --> 00:15:56.759 get all these spin off rights, and so you start 226 00:15:56.960 --> 00:16:03.279 also seeing competition between Grants and England and other places 227 00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:06.399 that are creating their own rights too for nationalistic reasons. 228 00:16:06.919 --> 00:16:10.279 So you get the ancient and primitive rights of Memphis 229 00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:13.360 and Misriam. You get all of these other rights, and 230 00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:16.960 all of them are kind of circulating around and people 231 00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:22.799 are participating them. In the eighteen hundreds, people are getting 232 00:16:22.919 --> 00:16:27.399 multiple degrees and certificates, and this is the kind of 233 00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:32.799 foundation of Masonic ideas floating around that really gives the 234 00:16:32.840 --> 00:16:37.919 foundation in which groups like Theosophy, Golden Dawn and the 235 00:16:37.960 --> 00:16:42.480 Oto arose. They're all based on these kind of fringe 236 00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:48.759 or alternative kinds of freemasonry. And so when you start 237 00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:52.720 looking directly at especially the rights of the Golden Dawn 238 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:56.840 and the Oto, they're very Masonic. And if you look 239 00:16:56.960 --> 00:17:02.159 at Theosophy, its original structure under Blovatsky was not free Masonic. 240 00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:05.480 Well actually it was. It did have three degrees, it 241 00:17:05.559 --> 00:17:08.880 had an oath that you had to take, and secrecy. 242 00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:13.920 But these were then shifted into the esoteric section, and 243 00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:19.160 so masonry is the underlying framework, so much so that 244 00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:22.880 under the leadership of Annie Bessett, the second President of 245 00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:27.359 the Theosophical Society, they create co Masonry, which is both 246 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:32.519 male and female. And there were types of female freemasonry 247 00:17:32.559 --> 00:17:37.240 prior to co Masonry, lodges of adoption in other circumstances. 248 00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:41.880 But this is the really the foundation in which all 249 00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:45.319 of these rights, all of these organizations, and in many 250 00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:51.279 cases occultism arose in Europe and in the United States. 251 00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:55.720 So when I think of masonry as an outsider, I 252 00:17:55.799 --> 00:17:58.599 usually think about it in terms of being secretive and 253 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:04.880 perhaps holding onto hidden wisdom. Is what what is masonry like? 254 00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:07.480 What for listeners who aren't familiar with it outside of 255 00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:10.400 this sort of that context or the way you see 256 00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:12.720 it spoken of on these sort of history channel TV shows. 257 00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:16.119 What I know, it's a sort of a fraternal group, 258 00:18:16.119 --> 00:18:18.240 But what is it exactly? What are they doing? 259 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:22.160 Well, it's it's no one thing. It's it's been a 260 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:25.559 number of things over time. And just to be clear, 261 00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:30.240 I am not a Freemason. I've not taken any initiations 262 00:18:30.279 --> 00:18:33.759 in freemasonry, although I've read a lot of their material 263 00:18:33.880 --> 00:18:36.119 and one of the things that they're very clear about 264 00:18:36.279 --> 00:18:40.480 is they claim that they're not a secret society. They 265 00:18:40.519 --> 00:18:44.880 claim that they are a society with secrets. And so 266 00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:48.759 they want to make a distinction between the fact that 267 00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:52.319 being a Mason people are open about it, that the 268 00:18:52.759 --> 00:18:56.079 lodges and temples and all of the things that are 269 00:18:56.079 --> 00:18:59.680 associated with Masonry are very public, that they don't hide 270 00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:03.960 their membership, that they constantly invite the public in. So 271 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:06.640 they're not a secret society in that sense that they're 272 00:19:06.680 --> 00:19:11.440 trying to hide their existence or their influence. But they 273 00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:14.359 do turn around and say, look, the secrets are an 274 00:19:14.359 --> 00:19:19.240 integral part of what bind us together in the ceremonies 275 00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:23.559 and the experiences that every Mason has, and again every 276 00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:28.960 mason who is a master Mason has gone through that 277 00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:34.400 initiatory experience and they all are very similar across the world. 278 00:19:34.440 --> 00:19:39.039 And so there's this experiential unity that they have within 279 00:19:39.079 --> 00:19:42.559 the organization, and part of that is getting secrets, and 280 00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:47.640 those secrets are based on ideas about morality and conduct 281 00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:51.160 and serving each other. But if we go back to 282 00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:54.799 the beginning of what masonry started as it was much 283 00:19:54.839 --> 00:20:00.200 more social. It was a kind of a group of 284 00:20:01.039 --> 00:20:03.839 middle class and elite men who would get together and 285 00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:08.440 have banquets and parades through town and things like that. 286 00:20:09.319 --> 00:20:13.279 By the time you get into the eighteen hundreds, there's 287 00:20:13.359 --> 00:20:17.079 a especially in the United States, there's an incident called 288 00:20:17.079 --> 00:20:21.160 the Morgan Affair, where there's a guy in New York 289 00:20:21.400 --> 00:20:25.799 named Morgan who claims he's going to create a publish 290 00:20:25.839 --> 00:20:31.160 a book that has all the Masonic secrets. He disappears 291 00:20:31.400 --> 00:20:35.880 and is presumed murdered. And then because of the position 292 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:41.359 of Freemasonry within the society, all the politicians, the judges, 293 00:20:41.480 --> 00:20:45.880 the police, everybody's a Freemason. There's all this again suspicion. 294 00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:53.079 And then the people who were claimed or are charged 295 00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:58.720 with Morgan's murder were not convicted. The jury was full 296 00:20:58.759 --> 00:21:01.839 of Masons, etc. Etc. And so there's a big public 297 00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:06.039 outcry about it. And this actually leads to the first 298 00:21:06.279 --> 00:21:09.759 third party of the United States, the Anti Masonic Party, 299 00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:14.000 which arose in the eighteen thirties, and they're first group 300 00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:18.200 to create a third party and a platform and to 301 00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:22.759 have meetings of that platform which people to get together 302 00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:25.440 and have a political convention and so forth, and even 303 00:21:25.480 --> 00:21:29.480 the political conventions that we have today every few years 304 00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:33.160 with the Democratic Party and the Republican Libertarians and all 305 00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:38.480 the other political parties. How they're formatted, what they do, 306 00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:41.799 having a platform, getting together the speeches. All that is 307 00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:45.640 still based on the format that was created in the 308 00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:49.359 eighteen thirties for the Anti Masonic Party. And so the 309 00:21:49.400 --> 00:21:53.279 anti Masonic movement arises and pushes back against this kind 310 00:21:53.319 --> 00:21:58.200 of influence, and Masonry changes and becomes a much more 311 00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:04.720 social and nal environment. The other thing it's doing all 312 00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:09.279 along is it is a mutual support organization. There was 313 00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:13.960 no social net, there was no insurance, so people would 314 00:22:14.039 --> 00:22:18.599 join Freemasonry knowing that if they died that the organization 315 00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:23.200 would a pay for their burial and be support their 316 00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:27.160 widow and children. This was really important because if the 317 00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:31.839 male was the only person who earned money and they died, 318 00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:35.960 that would leave the wife and children destitute. And so 319 00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:39.119 Freemasonry offered an opportunity to make sure that there was 320 00:22:39.400 --> 00:22:42.440 at least the minimal support for their family, and so 321 00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:45.759 they would pay dues into this and then through that 322 00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:50.279 charity would take care of Masonic burial and so forth. 323 00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:54.920 So we could see how this is in shifting priorities, 324 00:22:55.480 --> 00:22:58.559 public relations and so forth, and to get to the 325 00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:03.119 modern period where now is such a social network people 326 00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:08.759 are connecting. They don't need the social net that Freemasonry 327 00:23:08.759 --> 00:23:12.279 in many ways is very much in the decline. It's 328 00:23:12.319 --> 00:23:19.519 not very popular for young people and is really losing 329 00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:24.240 its foundation within the societies of the Western world. I 330 00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:28.440 should say that it had over the last few centuries. 331 00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:29.920 You know, it's interesting. 332 00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:33.440 I was wondering if it was maybe gonna bounce back. 333 00:23:34.279 --> 00:23:37.400 You see, the sort of like hipster people with their 334 00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:41.400 fancy mustaches and big beards, that this is another one 335 00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:43.720 of those sort of retro things that seems like it 336 00:23:43.799 --> 00:23:48.200 might get some increased cultural cachet just because it's old. 337 00:23:48.599 --> 00:23:52.240 You know, I was curious if that would actually happen. 338 00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:57.480 So, I mean, the future is open for lots of 339 00:23:57.480 --> 00:24:00.880 people to enter freemasonry and change it. And that's the 340 00:24:00.920 --> 00:24:03.880 point we should keep in mind, is that freemasonry has 341 00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:09.240 not been this static organization. It's been dramatically shaped by 342 00:24:09.359 --> 00:24:15.880 the generations of men and associated women who have really 343 00:24:16.279 --> 00:24:19.440 changed the fabric of the organization. I mean, at the 344 00:24:19.559 --> 00:24:22.119 end of the eighteen hundreds, there was a movement to 345 00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:26.599 create all of these new rituals for different kinds of 346 00:24:26.599 --> 00:24:32.039 freemasonries to make different lines of freemasonry. There's a book 347 00:24:32.039 --> 00:24:38.440 called Encyclopedia Freemasonry by a guy named Mackenzie. He documents 348 00:24:38.599 --> 00:24:46.839 this proliferation of fringe rights and ritual. It's very, very popular, 349 00:24:47.720 --> 00:24:50.640 and there are some scholars who theorize that what's going 350 00:24:50.680 --> 00:24:55.000 on here is we're seeing a huge shift from agrarian 351 00:24:55.160 --> 00:24:59.799 society to an urban society. What it means in terms 352 00:24:59.839 --> 00:25:04.480 of masculinity is in flux, and so many men see 353 00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:07.559 freemasonry at the end of the eighteen hundreds as an 354 00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:14.519 opportunity to engage in masculine to create a masculine space, 355 00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:19.920 to make some kinds of morals and rights and ritual, 356 00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:24.519 to redefine what it means to be masculine. And so 357 00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:28.279 we see that kind of negotiation happening due to the 358 00:25:28.400 --> 00:25:33.039 rise of modernism and the shift to urban environments. 359 00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:37.200 It's very interesting to me, although I haven't spent as 360 00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:41.279 much time actually reading about it or looking into it, 361 00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:44.599 despite the way it overlaps with so many of my 362 00:25:44.680 --> 00:25:49.000 other sort of fringe topic interests. 363 00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:49.920 But the. 364 00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:55.960 Fact that I guess originally it came out of masonry, 365 00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:00.000 like in the actual building sense, and then became something 366 00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:01.319 quite different over time. 367 00:26:03.039 --> 00:26:04.200 Is that accurate or is. 368 00:26:04.200 --> 00:26:07.039 That you're understanding that that's that that that part of 369 00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:09.039 the history of this of the group is actually real, 370 00:26:09.079 --> 00:26:13.119 that it really did, uh sort of come out of 371 00:26:13.160 --> 00:26:17.680 the keeping the knowledge necessary for building. 372 00:26:18.279 --> 00:26:20.880 Uh, you know that was my say. 373 00:26:20.920 --> 00:26:23.440 It was like tied into the journeyman, you know, uh 374 00:26:23.759 --> 00:26:25.599 idea of like if you're going to learn a trade, 375 00:26:25.839 --> 00:26:28.720 you have to keep that trade information within the group 376 00:26:29.119 --> 00:26:30.160 so that it doesn't escape. 377 00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:31.799 I don't know if that's real or not, though that's 378 00:26:32.519 --> 00:26:33.000 I think. 379 00:26:32.839 --> 00:26:37.240 I think it in practical sense, it is real if 380 00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:42.039 we look back at earlier times than the early modern period, 381 00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:46.519 when you have people who who would travel and would 382 00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:54.400 claim certain things, including the knowledge to build and and 383 00:26:54.440 --> 00:26:55.680 therefore get employment. 384 00:26:56.039 --> 00:26:56.319 Right. 385 00:26:57.039 --> 00:27:01.440 So the passwords and so forth was a mechanism by 386 00:27:01.480 --> 00:27:06.000 which somebody could enter a place that is new, locate 387 00:27:06.279 --> 00:27:13.240 fellow tradesmen, reveal their knowledge with passwords, and then therefore 388 00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:17.839 be certified by the local tradesmen that this person is 389 00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:23.759 aware of things because they gave certain proofs through their 390 00:27:23.799 --> 00:27:27.799 association and their knowledge. So it was more of a 391 00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:32.799 certification process in practice in the early times, and it 392 00:27:32.839 --> 00:27:38.640 became speculative masonry in the eighteenth century, because you saw 393 00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:44.039 the involvement of people who saw the structure as useful 394 00:27:44.480 --> 00:27:46.799 but were not interested in the skills per se, but 395 00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:50.640 saw the symbolism and so forth as something that they 396 00:27:50.680 --> 00:27:54.759 could build upon to make this other kind of organization. 397 00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:57.240 Rise of the middle class. And that sort of tie 398 00:27:57.240 --> 00:28:04.839 in there that's really interesting. So you get masonry, you've 399 00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:09.000 got that existing. But then the in my not necessarily 400 00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:11.960 directly related sort of thing, we've got this rise of 401 00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:16.440