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<v Speaker 1>Ready, get ready, Okay, September twenty four, twenty twenty five.

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<v Speaker 2>Allegedly, according to that thing we call a counter, I

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<v Speaker 2>might be a little loud there, so I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>tone it down for those of you who went, oh god,

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<v Speaker 2>he just burst into my ears. But anyway, minor technical

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<v Speaker 2>thing went to Airly doesn't matter. It's Wednesday and I

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<v Speaker 2>am live on the stream, but you're most likely catching

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<v Speaker 2>the podcast, so you don't care what day it is,

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<v Speaker 2>but I gave it to you anyway. Larry Hancock is

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<v Speaker 2>with me, Larry dash Handcock dot com. Some of you guys,

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<v Speaker 2>I know you got it. You got a nickname for Larry,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's fine. We talked about that just before air actually,

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<v Speaker 2>and maybe maybe we'll discuss it on another episode because

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<v Speaker 2>I want to get to this one. This is definitely

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<v Speaker 2>a different opportunity to go over things with Larry. And

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<v Speaker 2>what are we going to be talking talking about tonight. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>the main issue here to me is the USS liberty

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<v Speaker 2>and again, follow Larry's blog, follow Larry's work, and also

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<v Speaker 2>take a look at all of his books, which I

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<v Speaker 2>all highly recommend. And he does take up a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of physical space on my bookshelf. But he's not just

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<v Speaker 2>taking up space. It's quite a comprehensive education actually on

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<v Speaker 2>a bunch of things. And tonight, which book would we

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<v Speaker 2>be looking at if we wanted to grab one off

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<v Speaker 2>of the Larry Hancock section of your bookshelf? Surprise attack?

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<v Speaker 2>All right, what is that about? Well, if I remember correctly,

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<v Speaker 2>we're talking everything from a range of like Pearl Harbor

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<v Speaker 2>all the way to ben Ghazi. And yeah, that covers

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<v Speaker 2>a bit of modern American history for sure, but yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe some other aspects of history as well, and who

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<v Speaker 2>knows what it is we got to discuss. But somewhere

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<v Speaker 2>in that book you got to find a section that

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<v Speaker 2>talks about the USS liberty. Now, I've talked about it

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<v Speaker 2>on this show with Joan Mellon in the past. I've

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<v Speaker 2>talked about it with other people in the past in

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<v Speaker 2>much shorter forms. Her book was called Blood in the Water,

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<v Speaker 2>and I still think it is a book of value. However,

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<v Speaker 2>you're going to get a slightly different look at it,

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<v Speaker 2>I think, with Larry and maybe some other things along

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<v Speaker 2>the way. So enough out of me again. Larry Hyphenhancock

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<v Speaker 2>dot com or Larry dash Handcock dot com. Hyperlinks and

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<v Speaker 2>all that in the show notes. Go ahead and click

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<v Speaker 2>on it, follow his blog and obviously, if you don't

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<v Speaker 2>have all of his books, what are you doing? Get them?

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<v Speaker 2>And you might have old versions too, so get the

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<v Speaker 2>updates as well. Anyway, that's where we're focusing. But there's

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<v Speaker 2>many other books we could be talking about, even Creating Chaos, etc.

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<v Speaker 2>But I think we're gonna hover over Surprise Attack tonight. Larry.

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<v Speaker 2>How are you doing? Though?

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<v Speaker 3>First I'm doing fine, Chuck, I'm ready for fall all

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<v Speaker 3>the still pretty warm here in the nineties.

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<v Speaker 4>But nope, doing fine.

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<v Speaker 2>Excellent, excellent, And look, Larry might be a little loud too,

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<v Speaker 2>And I just tapped and adjusted again because it's okay.

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<v Speaker 2>We can make Larry as loud as you want. But

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<v Speaker 2>nobody needs their ear drums broken when they've got their

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<v Speaker 2>air pods or cheap headset but plugged in or whatever.

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<v Speaker 2>Well they're listening to this, so apologies. But I was

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<v Speaker 2>explaining before that, you know, using different modes of communication

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<v Speaker 2>on this show, et cetera. Yeah, they don't all adjust

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<v Speaker 2>to the same sound levels, so sorry about that, but

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<v Speaker 2>I know we're fine now, and Larry's great loud or

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<v Speaker 2>soft and he's usually not a loud speaker, so that's

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<v Speaker 2>my fault anyway, Larry, So why would it be? And

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<v Speaker 2>I love how this is actually very relevant to today.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe you want to start there, like, why is it

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<v Speaker 2>we should even be talking about these historical events, because

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of people do that to you right where

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<v Speaker 2>they say, you know, that's history, and that's great to study,

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<v Speaker 2>and maybe you can learn something from it, but it's

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<v Speaker 2>not what I need to focus on what's in front

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<v Speaker 2>of us now. And people do that with the JFK assassination,

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<v Speaker 2>with the other assassinations in the sixties and elsewhere. People

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<v Speaker 2>talk about, you know what, I don't need to focus

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<v Speaker 2>on the history of it, because you know, I got

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<v Speaker 2>this right in front of me. Okay, I get it,

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<v Speaker 2>But you know, don't we study history as a matter

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<v Speaker 2>of trying to learn from it, et cetera. And I'll

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<v Speaker 2>start from that very stupid and over simplified point and

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<v Speaker 2>handed to you.

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<v Speaker 5>What we do.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think one of the things one of the

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<v Speaker 3>reasons we do that is because it gives us a baseline.

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<v Speaker 4>It's a baseline.

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<v Speaker 3>The reason I got into writing Surprise Attack was really

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<v Speaker 3>based on my interest in the Kennedy assassination, because one

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<v Speaker 3>of my one of my questions was, you know, did

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<v Speaker 3>the things that happened after twelve thirty Central time in Dallas,

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<v Speaker 3>Texas where they anomalous or not in terms of command

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<v Speaker 3>and control, in terms of what the new president did

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<v Speaker 3>or the setting president did, or the Secretary of Defense did,

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<v Speaker 3>what the what the joint chiefs did, Because obviously there's

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<v Speaker 3>a real question, you know, was there anything to see

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<v Speaker 3>there that's different than basically I won't call it standard

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<v Speaker 3>practice because one of the things you see quickly when

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<v Speaker 3>you dig into this is there's no standard It's when

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<v Speaker 3>you're talking about surprise attack. Yes, there are always plans,

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<v Speaker 3>and there's always drills, and there's always contingencies, and nobody

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<v Speaker 3>ever really follows them well at all because it is

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<v Speaker 3>a surprise.

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<v Speaker 4>So baseline is important.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think one of the things I would say

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<v Speaker 3>right off is when I started looking at what happened

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<v Speaker 3>after Dallas in comparison to basically everything from Pearl Harbor

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<v Speaker 3>to Bighazi, unfortunately it stands out as routine. People panic,

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<v Speaker 3>people don't follow practices, they don't talk to the right people,

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<v Speaker 3>communications fail, and that kind of brings us to the

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<v Speaker 3>current events, because I think everybody agrees we are living

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<v Speaker 3>in a dangerous world right now, probably more dangerous than

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<v Speaker 3>we have for a few decades, and we're in a

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<v Speaker 3>situation where there may be a surprise military action. Our

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<v Speaker 3>president has said, yes, Rush is violin airspace of different

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<v Speaker 3>European countries. Yes, they have every right to shoot those

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<v Speaker 3>aircraft or other aerial objects down at will because they're

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<v Speaker 3>over their territory and they're not responding. You know, when

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<v Speaker 3>that sort of thing happens, life gets real quick, and

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<v Speaker 3>especially it gets real quick.

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<v Speaker 2>Go ahead. Yeah, I'm sorry I need to interject here

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<v Speaker 2>because I think people fail to recognize that, Look, there's

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<v Speaker 2>a commonality here and whether there are gunshots in the

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<v Speaker 2>streets somewhere that target a particular individual, and I don't

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<v Speaker 2>just mean the Kennedy assassination, but even in real time,

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<v Speaker 2>when somebody's got a grudge and shows back up somewhere

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<v Speaker 2>and fires a gun, okay, at people, what is the

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<v Speaker 2>immediate action that takes place? There is confusion, okay, And

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<v Speaker 2>there is confusion because even if people witnessed it directly,

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<v Speaker 2>quite honestly, they don't necessarily know what they saw. Even

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<v Speaker 2>even the people that were right there. Now, when it

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<v Speaker 2>comes to a larger action like something, let's go outside

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<v Speaker 2>of the scope that we mentioned here, but within the

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<v Speaker 2>timeline nine to eleven. Okay, that happened, and people went

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<v Speaker 2>what the hell is going on? First? Okay, that was

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<v Speaker 2>the initial reaction. Then you're horrified. Okay, this is the order,

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<v Speaker 2>and then almost immediately what is the first question? What

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<v Speaker 2>the hell just went wrong? What went wrong that? This

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<v Speaker 2>is the outcome? And I think this is a template

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<v Speaker 2>from which you could fit all of this stuff. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>whether you're talking about the unnamed attack you know, through

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<v Speaker 2>gunfire on a street somewhere, or if you want to

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<v Speaker 2>apply it to the Kennedy assassination, it is a what

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<v Speaker 2>the hell just happened? And horror and shock. And I

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<v Speaker 2>know I'm over simplifying, but finally, what is the first question?

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<v Speaker 2>What in the hell just went wrong? People will ask

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<v Speaker 2>that question even if there is a military engagement that

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<v Speaker 2>suddenly spills over and wow, this turned into a larger attack.

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<v Speaker 2>This isn't just the exchange of gunfire or one bullet

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<v Speaker 2>being fired at somebody. No, no, this turns into many

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<v Speaker 2>weapons being discharged, a larger amount of destruction, or it

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<v Speaker 2>is the killing of a significant individual one way or another,

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<v Speaker 2>or you know what, hate to bring it up, but

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<v Speaker 2>people would say the whole Charlie Kirk thing, the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that the public reacted, how did they react? Oh my god,

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<v Speaker 2>what just happened? Then horrified? We need to grieve, we

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<v Speaker 2>need to be upset this and that one way or another.

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<v Speaker 2>Why are you not upset enough? Not getting into the

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<v Speaker 2>debate or trying to pull you into it, Larry, But

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<v Speaker 2>then what is the next question? Almost immediately what went wrong?

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<v Speaker 2>Now that turns into who to blame and everything else?

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<v Speaker 2>But those are branches off of the same tree. I

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<v Speaker 2>look at all of these events in exactly that context.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you think that I'm incorrect? And this is this

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<v Speaker 2>not a way that we sort of create a digestible

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<v Speaker 2>narrative for any of it again, whether it be Pearl Harbor,

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<v Speaker 2>or it be the Kennedy assassination, or it'd be BEng

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<v Speaker 2>Ghazi or nine to eleven or etc. And so on

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<v Speaker 2>at nauseam? Right, isn't that about the template that people

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<v Speaker 2>seem to deal with these things until they die into

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<v Speaker 2>the details. Isn't that just about a fair kind of

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<v Speaker 2>oversimplification of it? Or do you think I'm wrong.

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<v Speaker 3>I think it's fair, Chuck. But I would say that

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<v Speaker 3>there are actually three templates.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay.

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<v Speaker 3>One I would call the command and control templament template. That's,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, something of national security consequence happens that you know,

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<v Speaker 3>of national impact, whether it's an individual, a military whatever,

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<v Speaker 3>it's of national impact. The first template is how does

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<v Speaker 3>the national security institution you know, learn about it? How

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<v Speaker 3>quickly do they learn about it, and how do they respond?

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<v Speaker 3>So that's one thing that kind of sets by itself

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<v Speaker 3>because that information is in one thread. You know, the

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<v Speaker 3>general public is not hearing this, right. Then there's another

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<v Speaker 3>template that I would say that is kind of like

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<v Speaker 3>the oh, I don't know, the the organizational, the political

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<v Speaker 3>control because those people are embedded in that first one. Right,

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<v Speaker 3>the president learns about it, you know, various senior politicians

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<v Speaker 3>learn about it. Senators learn about it, and how do

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<v Speaker 3>they respond to it? They're going to be responding a

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<v Speaker 3>little bit later, you know, because they're not upfront in it.

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<v Speaker 3>But then they get to make some decisions. And finally

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<v Speaker 3>there's the public template and how that's deal with the public.

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<v Speaker 3>And they used to be very discreet and one rule

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<v Speaker 3>always whether you like it or not, was you don't

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<v Speaker 3>make things worse by making immediate statements that are inflammatory, right,

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<v Speaker 3>And I would say I find that all the way

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<v Speaker 3>across the board. You don't anything you say right, wrong

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<v Speaker 3>and different. It could be creating a problem. Well, unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 3>and I'll just well, I want to offer this observation.

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<v Speaker 4>Right now, we have thrown that in the trash, right.

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<v Speaker 3>And people at the highest administrative levels are making observations

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<v Speaker 3>that they should not make. You know, you don't start

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<v Speaker 3>fanning the flames without the data. Well that's a big change.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, see, that is a huge change. And that is

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<v Speaker 2>unfortunate because sink back in the old days, somebody would say, look,

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<v Speaker 2>we know that we were attacked. We're aware of everything,

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<v Speaker 2>we believe, we know who did this, but they didn't

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<v Speaker 2>name people right away. They would say we have our suspicions,

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<v Speaker 2>and reporters would say, well, do you suspect this nation state?

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<v Speaker 2>Do you suspect this terrorist organization? Do you suspect this individual?

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<v Speaker 2>They would say these things and unless there was a

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<v Speaker 2>publicly observable capture of that information, and even then they

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<v Speaker 2>might say, well, look there were planes that were you know,

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<v Speaker 2>clearly this kind of plane which only these countries use.

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<v Speaker 2>They would still say, look, look, look we still don't

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<v Speaker 2>know for certain yet. Even if they did know, they

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<v Speaker 2>didn't say it because fanning the flames in public, there

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<v Speaker 2>might be nuances to it. I'll give you it weird.

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<v Speaker 2>For instance, you see megs, right, Russian, the Russian megs.

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<v Speaker 2>The jets they were kind of a well known thing,

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<v Speaker 2>and they were sort of one of those things that

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<v Speaker 2>everybody thought of as only Russia had only the Soviet

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<v Speaker 2>Union used, and you know, high tech and this and that,

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<v Speaker 2>and we could get into that argument later if you want.

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<v Speaker 2>But somebody would say, well, that obviously means the communist

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the communist Russian block, their military is involved.

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<v Speaker 2>But that's not necessarily true because somebody else could have

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<v Speaker 2>been flying those jets that they got from the Soviets.

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<v Speaker 2>And we know, yeah, those jets were there, but we're

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<v Speaker 2>not saying that because that information is leading. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's like a leading question in a courtroom. Right, Obviously

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<v Speaker 2>you're inferring this by asking that question or by offering

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<v Speaker 2>this piece of information. You're inferring it without saying it.

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<v Speaker 2>Good job. But that's not the way that they used

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<v Speaker 2>to deal with these things in the public. It used

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<v Speaker 2>to be okay, fine, you observed that, but there may

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<v Speaker 2>be more that you didn't observe. So we're still working

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<v Speaker 2>on it. And they held back things even if they

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<v Speaker 2>did know them. Now some people would say, well, that's

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<v Speaker 2>them hiding stuff and they're not being transparent. But it

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<v Speaker 2>was kind of more intelligent, especially because you might be

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<v Speaker 2>informing your enemy of your level of knowledge. Right if

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<v Speaker 2>you do that right out in public, all they got

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<v Speaker 2>to do. I mean I used to laugh at the

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<v Speaker 2>whole thing with the desert storm, you know, because people

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<v Speaker 2>said Al Saddam saying has to do is turn on

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<v Speaker 2>CNN and he'll know what's happening. Yeah, but not really

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<v Speaker 2>because if they're smart, they don't let CNN see everything

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<v Speaker 2>that's happening, because that way your enemy can't get open

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<v Speaker 2>source intelligence on you for free. Okay, and maybe adjust

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<v Speaker 2>things you're currently doing or adjust to your response because

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<v Speaker 2>they now know. You know. I know that sounds crazy

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<v Speaker 2>and maybe somebody goes, chuck, what did you just say?

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<v Speaker 2>But Larry, and you're your good at sorting me out,

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<v Speaker 2>so you know.

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<v Speaker 3>I think that the simple, the simple derivative of that

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<v Speaker 3>is if you say too much, too soon, and in

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<v Speaker 3>a knee jerk fashion.

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<v Speaker 4>It allows you to be manipulated.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, and we who talk about the JFK assassination know

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<v Speaker 3>that one of the things that happened in the first

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<v Speaker 3>twenty four hours was there were a whole lot of

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<v Speaker 3>lines of information feeding into the press, and differently the

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<v Speaker 3>press in particular, that were associating Oswald with Castro and

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<v Speaker 3>essentially painting this as a Cuban or Communist assassination. Now,

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<v Speaker 3>you may not like it that nobody jumped into that

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<v Speaker 3>and attacked Cuba, which is probably a good thing that

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<v Speaker 3>they didn't. But the point is if you if you do,

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<v Speaker 3>and you do give into that temptation and you jump,

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<v Speaker 3>you will you're exposing yourself to being used. So I

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<v Speaker 3>think that's an example of why, yeah, none of us

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<v Speaker 3>like withholding information. The press always wants the you know,

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<v Speaker 3>law enforcement to immediately tell them everything about a crime,

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<v Speaker 3>all the deep details. When the law enforcement is saying, well,

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<v Speaker 3>how can I investigate the darn thing? If I give

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<v Speaker 3>all the information away? You know, I'm going to be

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<v Speaker 3>communicating through you guys, to the bad guys. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>there are reasons for these things, So that.

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<v Speaker 4>That's why I.

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<v Speaker 3>Said there are there are three levels of dealing with

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<v Speaker 3>these situations, and it's good to keep them apart. And

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<v Speaker 3>sometimes we may not like part of it, but there's

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<v Speaker 3>a reason to do so. It's also one of the

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<v Speaker 3>reasons why in some cases, unfortunately we don't learn the

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<v Speaker 3>real truth about some of these incidents because what you

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<v Speaker 3>and I would think should happen is they waited for

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<v Speaker 3>sufficient time. Let's take an example Vietnam. Okay, for ten years,

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<v Speaker 3>we know that we're probably not going to win this war,

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<v Speaker 3>and it's all in the Pentagon papers. Okay, You and

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<v Speaker 3>I as citizens would say, well, they've been telling the

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<v Speaker 3>president that when is he going to share it? And

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<v Speaker 3>then he didn't, so somebody ultimately had to leak the

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<v Speaker 3>Pentagon papers. You know, we would like it if it

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<v Speaker 3>were like the time of scale for transparency was moved

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<v Speaker 3>up a little bit.

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<v Speaker 4>It would make you feel better. But you know, that's

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<v Speaker 4>a separate issue.

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<v Speaker 3>And when we're talking about the liberty, and I will

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<v Speaker 3>say that the liberty is not the only example of

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<v Speaker 3>a national security situation over a period in the mid sixties.

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<v Speaker 3>They all have something in common that goes all the

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<v Speaker 3>way from the Gulf of Tonkin with the destroyers there,

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<v Speaker 3>through the liberty, through the Pueblo off North Korea.

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<v Speaker 4>If those of.

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<v Speaker 3>You were old enough to remember that, there are a

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00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:03.000
<v Speaker 3>lot of these things that were held in common, and

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00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:05.720
<v Speaker 3>you know, you can you can look at all of

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00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:08.319
<v Speaker 3>them to see if there's a pattern going on there

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00:18:08.440 --> 00:18:11.400
<v Speaker 3>in terms of all three levels that we just talk about.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, was the response accurate and correct and timely?

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<v Speaker 3>Was it shared with the You know, it's a very

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<v Speaker 3>interesting dialogue to talk about all three at the same level,

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<v Speaker 3>or any of the three at the same level.

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<v Speaker 4>And I talk about all three in the book. I must,

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<v Speaker 4>because the thing is five hundred page, just long, right,

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<v Speaker 4>and just which I don't know how I ever lived through.

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<v Speaker 2>But okay, well you always seem to live through five

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<v Speaker 2>six hundred pages, and you do it quite well and

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00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:45.880
<v Speaker 2>with with excellent and consistent work. So how you live

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<v Speaker 2>through it? Hey, look, I can't. I'm not inside you,

319
00:18:48.279 --> 00:18:51.000
<v Speaker 2>so I don't know how you are. But man, oh man,

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<v Speaker 2>what you're putting out is rather consistent and steady, so

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<v Speaker 2>it almost looks easy, you know, for you. But just

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<v Speaker 2>as a quick remind to people in case you're unaware,

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<v Speaker 2>or you don't remember the exact facts, a quick refresher

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<v Speaker 2>as follows. On June eight, nineteen sixty seven, Okay, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>there was a combined air and sea attack against a

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<v Speaker 2>ship called the USS Liberty, which was effectively an NSA

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<v Speaker 2>ship flying with a US flag on it. Okay, at

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<v Speaker 2>a certain point and under certain conditions, you could say that.

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<v Speaker 2>And as to whether it was identifying itself or letting

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<v Speaker 2>itself be known, and all of that, these are the controversies, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>in international waters okay, north of the Sinai Peninsula, all right,

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<v Speaker 2>just as a couple of points here, and it was

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<v Speaker 2>attacked quite brutally in my estimation, by Israeli military elements

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<v Speaker 2>in the air and the sea. So would you call

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<v Speaker 2>that their navy and their air force? I'm not sure,

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00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:01.200
<v Speaker 2>but either way, I'm describing it as best they can.

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<v Speaker 2>And there was let's see a few other things that

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<v Speaker 2>went on. This is all during the time period of

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<v Speaker 2>the Six Day War. All right, if you don't know

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00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:14.039
<v Speaker 2>what that is, go look it up. You know, just

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<v Speaker 2>saying this is a six day conflict between Israel and

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<v Speaker 2>about what a whole lot of nations in the Arab world.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's say, and it did indeed last six days, all right,

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<v Speaker 2>from the fifth to the tenth of June nineteen sixty seven.

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<v Speaker 2>So there is your what they used to call the

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<v Speaker 2>encyclopedia entry, the brief one, or at least the synopsis

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<v Speaker 2>of what was going on in the context of the

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<v Speaker 2>USS Liberty and the NSA ship. Here was a communications vessel,

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<v Speaker 2>as I recall. But then again, now we're going into

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<v Speaker 2>things where I'm not quite sure of the details. But

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<v Speaker 2>I do know that there were actions taken here that

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<v Speaker 2>in some cases would be classified as a war crime,

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<v Speaker 2>including the strafing of lifeboats after individuals attempt to flee

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00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:12.319
<v Speaker 2>the ship, and things like that, which are classified as

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00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:18.119
<v Speaker 2>war crimes in the international courts. Ok. And those things occurred. Meanwhile,

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<v Speaker 2>just minor entry. The US and Israel are supposed to

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<v Speaker 2>be allies, so somebody would say, why the hell did

358
00:21:24.680 --> 00:21:28.599
<v Speaker 2>this happen? And there's quite a bit of controversy about it. Now,

359
00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:33.359
<v Speaker 2>that is the best sanitized version I can possibly voice. Firing,

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00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:37.160
<v Speaker 2>Is that a fair quick synopsis of what we're talking

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<v Speaker 2>about here with the Liberty.

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<v Speaker 3>The bullet points are absolutely accurate, but for a little

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<v Speaker 3>bit of more of our standard context for those that

364
00:21:47.079 --> 00:21:50.920
<v Speaker 3>wouldn't know these kind of details. The Liberty was a

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<v Speaker 3>signal intelligent ship. Its whole role in life is to say.

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<v Speaker 4>Around.

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<v Speaker 3>The Liberty in particular, was the signed to Africa and

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<v Speaker 3>had been operating on the east coast of Africa and

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<v Speaker 3>had been reassigned because a couple of other ships were

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<v Speaker 3>being worked on and it had been sailed all the

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<v Speaker 3>way around Africa and moved into the Mediterranean because you

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<v Speaker 3>could see that the war was developing, so it was

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<v Speaker 3>being moved in position off the coast of Egypt and

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<v Speaker 3>Israel to collect signals traffic and primarily what it was

375
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<v Speaker 3>looking for and what the interest were in. There was

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<v Speaker 3>a great fear that the Russians were going to intervene

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<v Speaker 3>in a massive way against Israel. And I was in

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<v Speaker 3>the Air Force, not at the time, but I was

379
00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:44.559
<v Speaker 3>monitoring things from that perspective, and there was a great

380
00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:49.000
<v Speaker 3>concern that the Russians would actually intervene directly, not just

381
00:22:49.079 --> 00:22:57.440
<v Speaker 3>supplying Israel, but coming in with combat forces and participating themselves.

382
00:22:57.480 --> 00:23:01.440
<v Speaker 3>Against grave concern about that. A big role that the

383
00:23:01.480 --> 00:23:05.559
<v Speaker 3>ship was supposed to be playing was monitoring signal traffic

384
00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:10.240
<v Speaker 3>on Russian transmissions. See if they're showing up now, just again.

385
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<v Speaker 4>A little bit more depth than anybody would ever want

386
00:23:12.519 --> 00:23:12.880
<v Speaker 4>to know.

387
00:23:13.160 --> 00:23:16.319
<v Speaker 3>One of the problems with this whole exercise is all

388
00:23:16.359 --> 00:23:20.440
<v Speaker 3>of these signals intelligence ships, whether they were off Vietnam

389
00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:25.160
<v Speaker 3>or off Korea or were actually crude and the people

390
00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:28.759
<v Speaker 3>on board had equipment from the NSA, and.

391
00:23:29.160 --> 00:23:31.319
<v Speaker 4>There the role that.

392
00:23:31.279 --> 00:23:34.839
<v Speaker 3>They're playing, they're tasking everything is from the NSA. The

393
00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:39.319
<v Speaker 3>ship itself is a Navy ship demanded by a Navy captain,

394
00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:43.039
<v Speaker 3>flagged with the US flag, you know, displayed as very

395
00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:46.599
<v Speaker 3>clear and as it's traveling around the world, it is

396
00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:49.039
<v Speaker 3>constantly identifying itself.

397
00:23:48.759 --> 00:23:50.720
<v Speaker 4>As a US Navy vessel.

398
00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:54.720
<v Speaker 3>So there's no doubt at all, you know, there's nothing

399
00:23:54.759 --> 00:23:56.200
<v Speaker 3>covert going on here.

400
00:23:56.319 --> 00:23:57.279
<v Speaker 4>This is very.

401
00:23:57.079 --> 00:24:02.279
<v Speaker 3>Obvious that it's the US Navy vessel. But it's tasking

402
00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:05.640
<v Speaker 3>where it sailed and what it's told to do. Is

403
00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:07.799
<v Speaker 3>it really coming from the Navy and it's not coming

404
00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:11.200
<v Speaker 3>from the essay. It was coming from something called the

405
00:24:11.319 --> 00:24:15.480
<v Speaker 3>Joint Resources Command that had charges of all types of

406
00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:20.240
<v Speaker 3>signal collections and signals intelligence, and wasn't just ships that

407
00:24:20.279 --> 00:24:26.759
<v Speaker 3>we were We're flying Navy signals intelligence aircraft over the

408
00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:30.319
<v Speaker 3>Mediterranean out of Italy. So a lot going on here

409
00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:32.519
<v Speaker 3>in terms of trying to collect intelligence.

410
00:24:32.519 --> 00:24:33.359
<v Speaker 4>The liberty was.

411
00:24:33.319 --> 00:24:37.559
<v Speaker 3>Not by itself, but unfortunately it was by itself militarily.

412
00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:42.039
<v Speaker 3>It was unarmed, it had no escorts, there was no

413
00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:46.039
<v Speaker 3>air cover in immediate call for the ship, which was

414
00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:49.279
<v Speaker 3>you know, it's at risk.

415
00:24:49.480 --> 00:24:51.039
<v Speaker 4>And one of the one.

416
00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:54.960
<v Speaker 3>Of the sad things about the whole thing is once

417
00:24:55.920 --> 00:25:01.160
<v Speaker 3>people began to realize how dangerous things were, was repeatedly

418
00:25:01.319 --> 00:25:06.160
<v Speaker 3>ordered to move further offshore, further back into the Mediterranean.

419
00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:09.960
<v Speaker 3>None of those messages got to the ship, and it

420
00:25:10.039 --> 00:25:13.039
<v Speaker 3>remained in harm's way and closer than it should have been,

421
00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:15.839
<v Speaker 3>even when some people were trying to recall it. That's

422
00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:20.000
<v Speaker 3>common phenomenons during this period of time, and unfortunately it

423
00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:23.880
<v Speaker 3>might still be true where you've got multiple parties involved

424
00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:27.759
<v Speaker 3>in an operation with no single person sitting there saying

425
00:25:28.279 --> 00:25:31.640
<v Speaker 3>I'm the one who's responsible for these people in this ship,

426
00:25:32.200 --> 00:25:34.920
<v Speaker 3>and I get to make the decisions to keep them

427
00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:38.480
<v Speaker 3>out of harm's way. That just didn't happen here. And

428
00:25:38.519 --> 00:25:42.000
<v Speaker 3>when that decision was made, the message to move them

429
00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:46.519
<v Speaker 3>totally till like two hundred miles off shore was sent

430
00:25:46.559 --> 00:25:47.920
<v Speaker 3>through the wrong channel.

431
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:49.599
<v Speaker 4>And held up.

432
00:25:49.799 --> 00:25:52.759
<v Speaker 3>And they didn't get it, and that the attack was

433
00:25:53.559 --> 00:25:57.759
<v Speaker 3>actually the message was routed through Hawaii and it never

434
00:25:57.839 --> 00:26:02.359
<v Speaker 3>got there. Very sad situation, but again, probably more context

435
00:26:02.440 --> 00:26:05.640
<v Speaker 3>than is needed, but it's part of the backstory as

436
00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:09.079
<v Speaker 3>to why it was as much risk as it was.

437
00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:12.759
<v Speaker 3>And I'll add one other part of that. Unfortunately, that

438
00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:16.799
<v Speaker 3>naval signals intelligence ship or aircraft that I mentioned earlier

439
00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:23.799
<v Speaker 3>was monitoring the Israeli jets, and the operators on the

440
00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:28.440
<v Speaker 3>aircraft knew quite well that the Israelis in their traffic,

441
00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:33.240
<v Speaker 3>we're talking about attacking a US ship. There was absolutely

442
00:26:33.400 --> 00:26:36.720
<v Speaker 3>no doubt that they had observed the flag, they'd observed

443
00:26:36.759 --> 00:26:39.799
<v Speaker 3>the signage on the vessel. They absolutely knew that they

444
00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:43.640
<v Speaker 3>were attacking an American ship. The problem being is that

445
00:26:43.640 --> 00:26:47.759
<v Speaker 3>that aircraft did not know what ship it was. It

446
00:26:47.799 --> 00:26:50.759
<v Speaker 3>was not informed of the liberties mission. It had no

447
00:26:50.839 --> 00:26:52.759
<v Speaker 3>way even if it had known, It had none of

448
00:26:52.759 --> 00:26:56.079
<v Speaker 3>the frequencies, no way to communicate with a ship.

449
00:26:56.519 --> 00:27:01.519
<v Speaker 4>So unfortunately that a couple of bad things going on here.

450
00:27:01.640 --> 00:27:05.400
<v Speaker 3>The ship is being attacked, we even know it's the

451
00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:10.680
<v Speaker 3>Israelis attacking it, and that's how it really all goes bad.

452
00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:14.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, and oddly. Another piece of context here, that is

453
00:27:14.519 --> 00:27:18.799
<v Speaker 2>the reason that signals monitoring that you were just talking about,

454
00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:20.519
<v Speaker 2>that is the reason why we know at least one

455
00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:24.240
<v Speaker 2>of the pilots did request clarification on the orders to

456
00:27:24.319 --> 00:27:28.519
<v Speaker 2>fire upon the ship, because they were like, wait a minute,

457
00:27:28.519 --> 00:27:31.440
<v Speaker 2>we know it's a US flag ship, though we don't

458
00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:33.960
<v Speaker 2>know anything else, but are you sure you want to

459
00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:37.519
<v Speaker 2>do this? Basically is what he asked command, and you

460
00:27:37.559 --> 00:27:40.960
<v Speaker 2>know they told him yes. And one last piece of context,

461
00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:44.440
<v Speaker 2>just to get it all correct, is that as according

462
00:27:44.480 --> 00:27:48.240
<v Speaker 2>to my notes, now, I may have these numbers slightly off,

463
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:52.279
<v Speaker 2>but this is close to as accurate as the casualties

464
00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:56.720
<v Speaker 2>could be counted. Thirty four crew members were killed and

465
00:27:56.759 --> 00:28:00.480
<v Speaker 2>that included naval officers, seamen, and two marine and one

466
00:28:00.519 --> 00:28:05.519
<v Speaker 2>civilian NSA employee, and one hundred and seventy one crew

467
00:28:05.559 --> 00:28:09.839
<v Speaker 2>members were wounded during this action as far as my

468
00:28:09.880 --> 00:28:13.319
<v Speaker 2>notes tell me, and I believe they're close to accurate. Anyway.

469
00:28:14.359 --> 00:28:16.599
<v Speaker 2>I could be off on my numbers a little bit,

470
00:28:16.759 --> 00:28:19.799
<v Speaker 2>but it is an accurate representation of what the casualties

471
00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:26.079
<v Speaker 2>look like. I'm certain of that anyway. But Larry, this

472
00:28:26.319 --> 00:28:31.680
<v Speaker 2>is important because you know, I look again we're always

473
00:28:31.720 --> 00:28:35.000
<v Speaker 2>asking this question later, right, is this something that was

474
00:28:35.079 --> 00:28:39.039
<v Speaker 2>done intentionally, et cetera. And to me, you know, again,

475
00:28:39.640 --> 00:28:41.799
<v Speaker 2>my judgment on this is it does look to be

476
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:45.599
<v Speaker 2>something less than a wholesome mistake.

477
00:28:46.839 --> 00:28:49.160
<v Speaker 3>All right, let's I would I have to argue the

478
00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:52.400
<v Speaker 3>different proposition, Chuck. If you look at the book, there

479
00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:55.880
<v Speaker 3>are a dozen different mistakes that were made by different

480
00:28:55.920 --> 00:28:59.440
<v Speaker 3>people over course of a week. That all, I mean,

481
00:28:59.559 --> 00:29:02.839
<v Speaker 3>there were recalls issued and they simply didn't go through

482
00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:06.400
<v Speaker 3>the right communications channels. A large part of it is

483
00:29:06.440 --> 00:29:10.519
<v Speaker 3>because there are three different organizations that are involved with

484
00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:13.240
<v Speaker 3>that ship, right, and none of them are talking with

485
00:29:13.319 --> 00:29:17.279
<v Speaker 3>each other effectively. But so I would I would have

486
00:29:17.440 --> 00:29:20.799
<v Speaker 3>to argue that putting that ship in that position and

487
00:29:20.839 --> 00:29:22.759
<v Speaker 3>not being able to get it out, which i'd writ

488
00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:26.200
<v Speaker 3>I mean, they tried repeatedly to get messages to it,

489
00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:32.880
<v Speaker 3>the wrong frequencies were used. Bottom line is it would

490
00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:35.880
<v Speaker 3>have been awfully complex to leave this many loose ends

491
00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:37.519
<v Speaker 3>that look like it's just stupidity.

492
00:29:38.759 --> 00:29:42.440
<v Speaker 2>No fair enough. But and for the record, right, the

493
00:29:42.519 --> 00:29:45.559
<v Speaker 2>Israeli and the US government both concluded that this was

494
00:29:45.559 --> 00:29:49.599
<v Speaker 2>a result of mistakes, essentially due to the Israeli confusion

495
00:29:49.640 --> 00:29:50.759
<v Speaker 2>over the ship's identity.

496
00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:57.160
<v Speaker 3>I would I would counter that also. Okay, when we're

497
00:29:57.160 --> 00:30:00.799
<v Speaker 3>talking about these tiers that are involved, the U government

498
00:30:01.319 --> 00:30:04.559
<v Speaker 3>i e. President Johnson and the Joint chiefs of Staff

499
00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:08.440
<v Speaker 3>absolutely knew that it was no accident as a matter

500
00:30:08.440 --> 00:30:10.839
<v Speaker 3>of fact, and we have this as a matter of record.

501
00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:16.440
<v Speaker 3>One of the staff officers in Washington, when President Johnson

502
00:30:16.519 --> 00:30:20.559
<v Speaker 3>gave the order to sink the Liberty, like told our

503
00:30:20.680 --> 00:30:24.359
<v Speaker 3>navy to sink the Liberty to eliminate the evidence. That

504
00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:27.680
<v Speaker 3>officer went as far as writing a memo to himself

505
00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:31.519
<v Speaker 3>and locking into his desk so it could not be destroyed.

506
00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:34.720
<v Speaker 4>So back to those.

507
00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:38.359
<v Speaker 3>Tiers that we were talking about earlier, No, there was

508
00:30:38.440 --> 00:30:42.799
<v Speaker 3>no doubt whatsoever, regardless of what might have been said

509
00:30:42.839 --> 00:30:47.079
<v Speaker 3>in public, that the Israelis had done this intentionally.

510
00:30:48.440 --> 00:30:51.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm smiling while you say that, because that's what

511
00:30:51.160 --> 00:30:53.640
<v Speaker 2>we call lining that one up for Larry to just

512
00:30:53.720 --> 00:30:57.440
<v Speaker 2>knock it down easy. And I wanted to say that

513
00:30:57.519 --> 00:31:00.160
<v Speaker 2>because a lot of people are under the impression that

514
00:31:00.319 --> 00:31:06.400
<v Speaker 2>only survivors of the attack, you know, contradict that conclusion,

515
00:31:07.720 --> 00:31:12.440
<v Speaker 2>because that's generally the defense of this among many mainstream historians. Look,

516
00:31:12.519 --> 00:31:15.480
<v Speaker 2>this was just a mistake, and both of our governments agreed.

517
00:31:16.400 --> 00:31:20.200
<v Speaker 2>I've seen that in you know, other people's assessments here,

518
00:31:21.079 --> 00:31:24.880
<v Speaker 2>particularly an author writing about Lyndon Johnson in particular, right

519
00:31:25.480 --> 00:31:30.000
<v Speaker 2>who said this, And we have audio that contradicts that. Now,

520
00:31:30.119 --> 00:31:35.000
<v Speaker 2>we also have other documentation that contradicts that. Now. But

521
00:31:35.200 --> 00:31:39.559
<v Speaker 2>was it known at the time, not necessarily Now, it's

522
00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:42.920
<v Speaker 2>difficult to know because you don't see as much news

523
00:31:42.920 --> 00:31:45.400
<v Speaker 2>coverage of this as you say, do the Kennedy assassination

524
00:31:45.559 --> 00:31:49.880
<v Speaker 2>or that kind of thing. Okay, but here we go

525
00:31:49.960 --> 00:31:54.920
<v Speaker 2>with the contradictions and what is the reality. I dare

526
00:31:55.000 --> 00:31:57.680
<v Speaker 2>say that what you just said, Larry is you know,

527
00:31:57.759 --> 00:31:59.920
<v Speaker 2>a lot closer. But then you've got to sort out

528
00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:04.000
<v Speaker 2>the contradiction there, don't you, And what do we do? Well?

529
00:32:04.039 --> 00:32:06.359
<v Speaker 3>One of the things that's very important for that is

530
00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:11.640
<v Speaker 3>this was a very consistent behavior for Lyndon Johnson. We

531
00:32:11.839 --> 00:32:16.039
<v Speaker 3>absolutely now know for dead sure that in the Gulf

532
00:32:16.079 --> 00:32:20.319
<v Speaker 3>of Tonkin. It was verified all the way up the

533
00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:24.880
<v Speaker 3>chain of command. Even you had an admiral in the

534
00:32:25.039 --> 00:32:29.680
<v Speaker 3>area telling Johnson that the North Vietnamese had not attacked.

535
00:32:29.839 --> 00:32:30.799
<v Speaker 4>This was a mistake.

536
00:32:32.279 --> 00:32:36.400
<v Speaker 3>We have NSA intercepts that were altered by the Johnson

537
00:32:36.440 --> 00:32:39.799
<v Speaker 3>administration to destroy that evidence. So I guess one of

538
00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:42.440
<v Speaker 3>the things I'd have to offer in terms of the

539
00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:46.480
<v Speaker 3>baseline of considering this, in all three of these instances

540
00:32:47.480 --> 00:32:51.640
<v Speaker 3>under the Johnson leadership, there was a consistent pattern of

541
00:32:52.160 --> 00:32:57.640
<v Speaker 3>not responding knowingly and covering it up. Yeah, and not

542
00:32:57.759 --> 00:33:00.799
<v Speaker 3>just Johnson, the Secretary of Defense allowed that to happen.

543
00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:05.039
<v Speaker 3>I mean, this was a known thing at the highest

544
00:33:05.160 --> 00:33:08.920
<v Speaker 3>level of the Joint chiefs and certainly the Secretary of

545
00:33:08.920 --> 00:33:12.920
<v Speaker 3>Defense and the naval personnel. So I just tossed that

546
00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:17.079
<v Speaker 3>into the pot, saying, you know this, if it were

547
00:33:17.319 --> 00:33:19.680
<v Speaker 3>I might give it for one off thing. I might

548
00:33:19.720 --> 00:33:22.720
<v Speaker 3>accept that it was just a mistake. But Johnson did

549
00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:24.799
<v Speaker 3>it three different times.

550
00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:29.599
<v Speaker 2>Right, And I believe that I am not using hyperbole

551
00:33:29.720 --> 00:33:31.839
<v Speaker 2>when I say that this is the use of It's

552
00:33:31.880 --> 00:33:35.160
<v Speaker 2>not exactly a false flag attack. But when it comes

553
00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:37.759
<v Speaker 2>to the appomatics and the Turner Joy and how it

554
00:33:37.880 --> 00:33:40.359
<v Speaker 2>was ordered to constantly do things that were going to

555
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:42.960
<v Speaker 2>provoke a reaction, and then when they didn't get one,

556
00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:47.400
<v Speaker 2>they basically invented one. Okay, I'm sorry. It's the use

557
00:33:47.440 --> 00:33:50.839
<v Speaker 2>of false flag methodology in order to justify something, and

558
00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:54.559
<v Speaker 2>that is precisely what our government did regarding now we

559
00:33:54.640 --> 00:33:57.880
<v Speaker 2>have a justification to do X Y Z, And that's

560
00:33:57.920 --> 00:34:01.240
<v Speaker 2>what happened there regarding the Vietnam War. I don't feel

561
00:34:01.240 --> 00:34:04.319
<v Speaker 2>bad at all saying our government lied about a provocation

562
00:34:04.519 --> 00:34:07.079
<v Speaker 2>in order to create a condition where they would be

563
00:34:07.240 --> 00:34:10.320
<v Speaker 2>justified in taking an action they already intended to take.

564
00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:12.960
<v Speaker 2>And I don't think for a second that that's hyperbolic.

565
00:34:13.320 --> 00:34:15.639
<v Speaker 2>And people see, you know, don't like to hear that.

566
00:34:16.360 --> 00:34:20.000
<v Speaker 2>But it's not crazy in my mind to say that. Now,

567
00:34:20.079 --> 00:34:23.519
<v Speaker 2>maybe you disagree, Larry, but I don't think so.

568
00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:26.719
<v Speaker 4>No, I don't disagree, because it really wasn't our government.

569
00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:30.920
<v Speaker 3>It was one man. It was Lyndon Johnson. When you

570
00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:35.000
<v Speaker 3>really dig into the history, you find everybody in the

571
00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:41.079
<v Speaker 3>military side lined up telling Johnson, no, don't do this,

572
00:34:41.079 --> 00:34:45.440
<v Speaker 3>this isn't what happened, and Johnson making the decision for

573
00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:50.039
<v Speaker 3>political purposes to go in a given direction. The same

574
00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:55.119
<v Speaker 3>thing relates to the liberty just one of the dangers

575
00:34:55.280 --> 00:35:00.239
<v Speaker 3>is that you know, regardless of what factual information be

576
00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:03.280
<v Speaker 3>being prepared to the commander in chief, the commander in

577
00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:06.400
<v Speaker 3>chief is in a position of allowing.

578
00:35:07.360 --> 00:35:08.440
<v Speaker 4>Good better indifferent.

579
00:35:08.599 --> 00:35:10.559
<v Speaker 3>I mean, some people might say that was the right

580
00:35:10.599 --> 00:35:14.079
<v Speaker 3>call to make, you know, allowing events and incidents to

581
00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:19.400
<v Speaker 3>be influenced by political and strategic decisions that you know,

582
00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:24.800
<v Speaker 3>not military decisions. So no, I wouldn't disagree. Again, I

583
00:35:25.639 --> 00:35:28.719
<v Speaker 3>that sounds like I'm being harsh on Linda Johnson, so

584
00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:30.119
<v Speaker 3>be it right.

585
00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:32.800
<v Speaker 2>Well, look, you gotta be you gotta be harsh on

586
00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:36.400
<v Speaker 2>someone who is harsh. Uh. And I'm just saying, you know,

587
00:35:36.679 --> 00:35:38.760
<v Speaker 2>you have to act in kind here. If you see

588
00:35:38.800 --> 00:35:42.119
<v Speaker 2>things like this, you gotta you gotta describe them as

589
00:35:42.119 --> 00:35:45.639
<v Speaker 2>they are. And I've even seen the the you know,

590
00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:48.440
<v Speaker 2>excuse my language for a moment here, Larry, but I've

591
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:51.199
<v Speaker 2>even seen the quote out there that Johnson literally said

592
00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:54.960
<v Speaker 2>to people during that the event regarding the liberty. You know,

593
00:35:55.039 --> 00:35:58.840
<v Speaker 2>I want that goddamn thing to the bottom, uh, something

594
00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:01.519
<v Speaker 2>very similar to that when he was talking about the

595
00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:05.440
<v Speaker 2>USS liberty. He wanted it sunk. And I believe that's

596
00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:07.599
<v Speaker 2>preserved in that memo you mentioned. Now, I don't know

597
00:36:07.639 --> 00:36:10.599
<v Speaker 2>if that quote is accurate, but it seems as though

598
00:36:10.639 --> 00:36:13.119
<v Speaker 2>that is the spirit of what was being communicated.

599
00:36:14.360 --> 00:36:18.760
<v Speaker 4>Having studied for Johnson, having studied Johnson for all these years.

600
00:36:19.400 --> 00:36:21.800
<v Speaker 3>If he didn't say it that way, I wouldn't believe it.

601
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:28.280
<v Speaker 3>I mean, Johnson, Johnson does not make any other kind

602
00:36:28.320 --> 00:36:29.440
<v Speaker 3>of statement than that.

603
00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:30.599
<v Speaker 4>That's got to be Johnson.

604
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:33.719
<v Speaker 3>So yeah, I would speak to the accuracy in terms

605
00:36:33.719 --> 00:36:37.079
<v Speaker 3>of again, consistent, consistent behavior.

606
00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:39.840
<v Speaker 2>Right, And here here's that's the point to be made

607
00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:42.760
<v Speaker 2>here is that quite honestly, even if that's not exactly

608
00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:47.039
<v Speaker 2>correct in the quotation, guaranteed that's the way it was expressed.

609
00:36:47.559 --> 00:36:52.360
<v Speaker 2>It is very similar, if not worse. Okay, just saying

610
00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:57.400
<v Speaker 2>language wise, you know, the coldness and directness and the

611
00:36:57.559 --> 00:37:02.159
<v Speaker 2>absolute insistence and built into the statement. Yeah, I believe

612
00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:06.239
<v Speaker 2>that entirely because that would be consistent with his you know,

613
00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:10.519
<v Speaker 2>not public behavior, all right, you know public behavior. I

614
00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:15.880
<v Speaker 2>will do my best to do. Yeah, that's his public behavior, uh,

615
00:37:16.440 --> 00:37:20.320
<v Speaker 2>not in public and sometimes in public, but not always

616
00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:23.719
<v Speaker 2>in public. Is stuffed a lot more closely resembling what

617
00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:27.199
<v Speaker 2>I just said. All right, now, enough of that, let's

618
00:37:27.239 --> 00:37:29.280
<v Speaker 2>get into this. And also, you know, this is not

619
00:37:29.360 --> 00:37:32.760
<v Speaker 2>the only incidents that might be worthy of mention here.

620
00:37:32.760 --> 00:37:35.920
<v Speaker 2>But let's keep breaking this situation down if you don't mind,

621
00:37:36.440 --> 00:37:40.199
<v Speaker 2>because again, like I say, there is the control you know,

622
00:37:40.239 --> 00:37:44.719
<v Speaker 2>the controversy or controversy over there in England, you know,

623
00:37:44.840 --> 00:37:48.360
<v Speaker 2>regarding what in the hell happened here? Right? What what

624
00:37:48.440 --> 00:37:52.039
<v Speaker 2>does this mean? Why would a US president want one

625
00:37:52.119 --> 00:37:54.960
<v Speaker 2>of our naval ships sunk by one of our allies?

626
00:37:55.599 --> 00:37:59.719
<v Speaker 2>What is going on? And how do you even you know,

627
00:38:00.599 --> 00:38:03.239
<v Speaker 2>get hold of what this incident meant, what it was

628
00:38:03.320 --> 00:38:07.719
<v Speaker 2>meant to do? Okay, fine, it's a strategic decision for

629
00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:10.000
<v Speaker 2>some What is this strategy and play here? I mean,

630
00:38:10.039 --> 00:38:12.440
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of questions, Larry, So I'm just going

631
00:38:12.480 --> 00:38:15.480
<v Speaker 2>to kind of lean back, shut my mouth and take

632
00:38:15.480 --> 00:38:18.000
<v Speaker 2>a listen to you know, how it is you would

633
00:38:18.039 --> 00:38:20.320
<v Speaker 2>describe this if you don't mind, And you know, we're

634
00:38:20.320 --> 00:38:22.320
<v Speaker 2>about halfway through our time, but we might get time

635
00:38:22.360 --> 00:38:26.079
<v Speaker 2>to mention another incident or two before this is all done.

636
00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:29.079
<v Speaker 2>So you know, how would you express this to people

637
00:38:29.119 --> 00:38:33.000
<v Speaker 2>listening and saying, Okay, I've got the idea. I'm familiar

638
00:38:33.199 --> 00:38:35.159
<v Speaker 2>or at least now I'm a little more familiar with

639
00:38:35.320 --> 00:38:38.559
<v Speaker 2>the USS liberty when it happened, Why some of the

640
00:38:38.599 --> 00:38:43.599
<v Speaker 2>players involved, who actually died, et cetera. What are we

641
00:38:43.639 --> 00:38:44.960
<v Speaker 2>looking at here, Larry? Please?

642
00:38:46.039 --> 00:38:49.159
<v Speaker 3>Well, I think just to set the stage again, as

643
00:38:49.159 --> 00:38:51.760
<v Speaker 3>far as the Liberty itself is concerned, I think one

644
00:38:51.760 --> 00:38:55.079
<v Speaker 3>of the reasons this was so shocking for the captain

645
00:38:55.159 --> 00:39:01.320
<v Speaker 3>and the ship is the aircraft had been under surveillance

646
00:39:01.440 --> 00:39:04.400
<v Speaker 3>for hours before the attack happened. They had watched and

647
00:39:04.519 --> 00:39:10.280
<v Speaker 3>Israli aircraft fly over their own signal intelligence people had

648
00:39:10.360 --> 00:39:14.480
<v Speaker 3>monitored the aircraft transmission, and so they knew that they've

649
00:39:14.519 --> 00:39:18.719
<v Speaker 3>been observed and that they'd been monitored and nothing happened,

650
00:39:18.760 --> 00:39:22.719
<v Speaker 3>But so they it was a real shock again because

651
00:39:22.760 --> 00:39:28.199
<v Speaker 3>there had been so much time delay, several hours that

652
00:39:28.519 --> 00:39:33.679
<v Speaker 3>this had happened, especially because the NSA intercepts reveal that

653
00:39:33.679 --> 00:39:35.360
<v Speaker 3>the Israelis.

654
00:39:34.760 --> 00:39:36.039
<v Speaker 4>Had flown that aircraft.

655
00:39:36.119 --> 00:39:39.000
<v Speaker 3>And you know, even at that first point in time,

656
00:39:39.079 --> 00:39:42.719
<v Speaker 3>not later when you're talking about verification for the attack orders,

657
00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:45.199
<v Speaker 3>that the slip ship.

658
00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:46.679
<v Speaker 4>Had been known to be American.

659
00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:51.559
<v Speaker 3>But there's several things that happened over a couple of

660
00:39:51.599 --> 00:39:56.239
<v Speaker 3>hour period. Obviously, the Liberty did immediately the captain get

661
00:39:56.440 --> 00:40:01.920
<v Speaker 3>on and report to act fually Commander in Chief of

662
00:40:01.960 --> 00:40:05.599
<v Speaker 3>the Mediterranean, and this was past the Navy ships and

663
00:40:05.639 --> 00:40:13.199
<v Speaker 3>the Mediterranean to both the aircraft carriers America and Saratoga,

664
00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:18.719
<v Speaker 3>and they received that the message. But on those ships,

665
00:40:18.840 --> 00:40:23.480
<v Speaker 3>it was almost an hour before any air aircraft were launched.

666
00:40:24.039 --> 00:40:27.320
<v Speaker 3>Now one of the problems there that you've got to face,

667
00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:31.119
<v Speaker 3>and if you know some military background for the period,

668
00:40:31.719 --> 00:40:35.719
<v Speaker 3>those ships did not they weren't flying combat at her patrols.

669
00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:38.519
<v Speaker 3>You know, they had no planes in the air. They

670
00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:41.880
<v Speaker 3>were not you know, at risk. They were far removed

671
00:40:41.880 --> 00:40:46.199
<v Speaker 3>from any combat normally. The only attack aircraft that they

672
00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:51.119
<v Speaker 3>have are they're essentially what are called ssyop aircraft, and

673
00:40:51.239 --> 00:40:55.000
<v Speaker 3>these are the nuclear armed aircraft that they have ready

674
00:40:55.039 --> 00:40:59.320
<v Speaker 3>to launch at an instant, you know, because again, if

675
00:40:59.400 --> 00:41:03.880
<v Speaker 3>we're the whole SIP response plan says, if we have

676
00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:08.199
<v Speaker 3>a prevent preemptive attack nuclear attacked on us, all of

677
00:41:08.239 --> 00:41:10.519
<v Speaker 3>our assets have got to be ready to launch within

678
00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:11.960
<v Speaker 3>fifteen minutes to respond.

679
00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:13.920
<v Speaker 2>Right now, I have a sort of ships. Yeah, I

680
00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:17.119
<v Speaker 2>have a question, huh about the aircraft that was launched,

681
00:41:17.159 --> 00:41:21.519
<v Speaker 2>because I have read in several places that there were

682
00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:25.880
<v Speaker 2>aircraft launched even though permission was asked, should we launch

683
00:41:25.960 --> 00:41:30.719
<v Speaker 2>some aircraft to command? And I believe they were told no,

684
00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:34.719
<v Speaker 2>and then they launched aircraft anyway at one point. This

685
00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:37.760
<v Speaker 2>is what I read in some accounts. There's different versions

686
00:41:37.800 --> 00:41:41.519
<v Speaker 2>of this, folks. So yeah, the.

687
00:41:41.400 --> 00:41:44.320
<v Speaker 3>Best I could offer, the best I could offer, Chuck,

688
00:41:44.440 --> 00:41:51.880
<v Speaker 3>is certainly the captains of those carriers requested permission to launch.

689
00:41:52.519 --> 00:41:55.360
<v Speaker 3>I mean, this is as I said, Really, the Liberty

690
00:41:55.440 --> 00:41:59.320
<v Speaker 3>is not a Navy mission. It's a Navy ship, not

691
00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:04.000
<v Speaker 3>under name control, not under control of those admirals, you know.

692
00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:07.280
<v Speaker 3>So they've got to go back to headquarters and say,

693
00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:08.559
<v Speaker 3>all right, I want to launch.

694
00:42:09.599 --> 00:42:12.960
<v Speaker 4>Can I do affirmission to launch these armed aircraft? This

695
00:42:13.039 --> 00:42:14.000
<v Speaker 4>is a big deal.

696
00:42:14.119 --> 00:42:17.840
<v Speaker 3>Okay, because they're going to go into combat. It was

697
00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:21.039
<v Speaker 3>fifty minutes before they got a response that they could

698
00:42:21.079 --> 00:42:23.880
<v Speaker 3>go ahead and launch, So that doesn't mean they didn't

699
00:42:23.960 --> 00:42:26.760
<v Speaker 3>ask to launch. That was how long the chain of

700
00:42:26.760 --> 00:42:31.480
<v Speaker 3>command was delayed in giving them authority to launch armed aircraft.

701
00:42:31.880 --> 00:42:33.920
<v Speaker 3>One of the reasons for that, and this is pure

702
00:42:33.960 --> 00:42:37.800
<v Speaker 3>speculation on my part, is the only armed aircraft that

703
00:42:37.840 --> 00:42:41.599
<v Speaker 3>they had on deck ready to launch may have been

704
00:42:41.679 --> 00:42:45.840
<v Speaker 3>nuclear armed. And although this is not documented in any

705
00:42:45.880 --> 00:42:47.800
<v Speaker 3>of the traffic, somebody may have had to make a

706
00:42:47.840 --> 00:42:51.920
<v Speaker 3>decision go ahead and launch those siop aircraft, or no,

707
00:42:52.599 --> 00:42:55.039
<v Speaker 3>I want you to put up a couple of non

708
00:42:55.199 --> 00:42:59.519
<v Speaker 3>nuclear aircraft and send those off and nobody really discusses

709
00:42:59.559 --> 00:43:01.159
<v Speaker 3>that that I been able to find.

710
00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:04.079
<v Speaker 2>Okay, And that would be because, look, there are certain

711
00:43:04.119 --> 00:43:10.559
<v Speaker 2>instances where you would require a different level of what's

712
00:43:10.599 --> 00:43:14.039
<v Speaker 2>happening to launch. In other words, you can't just launch

713
00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:16.559
<v Speaker 2>everything with every kind of weapon on it. If you

714
00:43:16.639 --> 00:43:19.960
<v Speaker 2>launch something that is not armed with a nuclear warhead,

715
00:43:20.440 --> 00:43:23.239
<v Speaker 2>that is a different engagement.

716
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:27.639
<v Speaker 4>Okay, yeah, you fluck, it's a different weapons load, and

717
00:43:27.639 --> 00:43:31.159
<v Speaker 4>and a it would be ineffective, okay, because what are

718
00:43:31.159 --> 00:43:32.000
<v Speaker 4>you going to do with it.

719
00:43:32.079 --> 00:43:35.119
<v Speaker 3>You're not going to chase off fighters. You need a

720
00:43:35.159 --> 00:43:36.280
<v Speaker 3>different weapons load.

721
00:43:36.679 --> 00:43:38.239
<v Speaker 4>Right now. You might say I'm going to.

722
00:43:38.239 --> 00:43:41.320
<v Speaker 3>Fire a nuclear armed aircraft out there and fly it

723
00:43:41.360 --> 00:43:45.440
<v Speaker 3>over the liberty and maybe they'll go away. But by

724
00:43:45.480 --> 00:43:47.000
<v Speaker 3>this time, you know this has been a progres.

725
00:43:47.159 --> 00:43:47.360
<v Speaker 2>You know.

726
00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:51.280
<v Speaker 4>But and what if they shoot down my nuclear armed aircraft?

727
00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:52.239
<v Speaker 4>Is this a good thing?

728
00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:56.480
<v Speaker 3>So you know, I can't get into anybody's head, but

729
00:43:56.519 --> 00:43:58.800
<v Speaker 3>I can see that these are all a process of

730
00:43:59.239 --> 00:44:01.159
<v Speaker 3>that might go in to the decision making.

731
00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:03.760
<v Speaker 2>Well, fair enough, But what about the accusation that there

732
00:44:03.840 --> 00:44:05.039
<v Speaker 2>was a recall.

733
00:44:05.360 --> 00:44:09.360
<v Speaker 3>Of oh, there there was a recall, Okay, absolutely, I

734
00:44:09.360 --> 00:44:12.039
<v Speaker 3>just thought, let me go a little bit a little

735
00:44:12.039 --> 00:44:12.760
<v Speaker 3>bit separate.

736
00:44:13.039 --> 00:44:15.519
<v Speaker 4>So fifteen minutes it's taken it.

737
00:44:15.599 --> 00:44:20.760
<v Speaker 3>We've launched aircraft and they're on the way to the Liberty,

738
00:44:21.880 --> 00:44:26.440
<v Speaker 3>and communications have been going. You know, these communications are

739
00:44:26.440 --> 00:44:31.920
<v Speaker 3>strictly here in the Mediterranean within the Navy. Back at

740
00:44:32.159 --> 00:44:37.960
<v Speaker 3>the Washington d C took It was some fifteen minutes

741
00:44:38.079 --> 00:44:42.679
<v Speaker 3>after receipt that aircraft had been launched and we're responding

742
00:44:42.719 --> 00:44:46.960
<v Speaker 3>to the Liberty. Johnson got the message at the same

743
00:44:47.000 --> 00:44:50.559
<v Speaker 3>time Secretary mcmara got the message.

744
00:44:50.800 --> 00:44:53.039
<v Speaker 4>Okay. It took fifteen.

745
00:44:52.639 --> 00:44:55.559
<v Speaker 3>Minutes more for him to connect the Navy and find

746
00:44:55.559 --> 00:44:59.079
<v Speaker 3>out what they were actually doing, because again, this is

747
00:44:59.239 --> 00:45:03.360
<v Speaker 3>Liberty's not a Navy ship on a mission. It's being

748
00:45:03.480 --> 00:45:06.639
<v Speaker 3>run by you know, this is not something that's on

749
00:45:06.679 --> 00:45:10.599
<v Speaker 3>the Operation Sport at the Pentagon, you know, as a

750
00:45:10.639 --> 00:45:14.599
<v Speaker 3>special mission that's going on. And by the time that

751
00:45:14.679 --> 00:45:19.519
<v Speaker 3>this is all over and Johnson was actually informed that

752
00:45:19.599 --> 00:45:25.559
<v Speaker 3>the planes were approaching Liberty, he ordered they be recalled right, okay,

753
00:45:26.400 --> 00:45:29.199
<v Speaker 3>And at that point in time, one of the things

754
00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:34.719
<v Speaker 3>to add to the confusion is nobody knew who the

755
00:45:34.760 --> 00:45:37.559
<v Speaker 3>attackers were. Remember I said in the beginning of this

756
00:45:38.079 --> 00:45:40.440
<v Speaker 3>that there was a great fear that the Russians might

757
00:45:40.519 --> 00:45:44.480
<v Speaker 3>be intervening militarily. So one of the things that had

758
00:45:44.519 --> 00:45:48.320
<v Speaker 3>to be straightened out for mcnamarian Johnson right off the

759
00:45:48.360 --> 00:45:52.119
<v Speaker 3>bat is who are the Russians attacking our ship? And

760
00:45:52.199 --> 00:45:55.280
<v Speaker 3>if we engage? Are we now engaged in war with Russia?

761
00:45:55.960 --> 00:45:59.079
<v Speaker 3>Or if we engage or we engaged with the Egyptians

762
00:45:59.679 --> 00:46:03.519
<v Speaker 3>right or we engaged, you know, So it did take

763
00:46:03.599 --> 00:46:07.039
<v Speaker 3>some pars time to parse out, Oh, it's the Israelis.

764
00:46:07.400 --> 00:46:10.480
<v Speaker 3>And apparently as soon as Johnson was told it was

765
00:46:10.519 --> 00:46:14.559
<v Speaker 3>the Israelis, it's like, bring the planes back, okay.

766
00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:17.280
<v Speaker 2>But also there's something else to mention here in context.

767
00:46:17.320 --> 00:46:20.719
<v Speaker 2>I mentioned Russian MiGs earlier because they were most commonly

768
00:46:20.800 --> 00:46:22.400
<v Speaker 2>the ones who would have been flying them at that

769
00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:27.960
<v Speaker 2>point for sure. But if you identified, say hypothetically, because

770
00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:30.920
<v Speaker 2>I've read this as well, that there were those type

771
00:46:30.920 --> 00:46:33.960
<v Speaker 2>of attack aircraft in the area and didn't know which

772
00:46:33.960 --> 00:46:37.039
<v Speaker 2>aircraft hits you, guess what, you don't know which aircraft

773
00:46:37.119 --> 00:46:41.480
<v Speaker 2>necessarily hits you in the midst of smoking fire and whatever.

774
00:46:42.559 --> 00:46:45.199
<v Speaker 2>You know, whether it was napalm or white phosphorus, because

775
00:46:45.199 --> 00:46:48.039
<v Speaker 2>I've seen both claimed having been dropped on the deck

776
00:46:48.920 --> 00:46:50.880
<v Speaker 2>in the midst of that it might be difficult to

777
00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:53.239
<v Speaker 2>sort out which plane actually dropped the stuff on you.

778
00:46:53.320 --> 00:46:59.239
<v Speaker 3>Okay, is that and the Egyptians are flying Soviet aircraft

779
00:46:59.639 --> 00:47:02.079
<v Speaker 3>A good point. I mean, that's that was who. Yeah,

780
00:47:02.119 --> 00:47:05.079
<v Speaker 3>so that's that's your point. You you absolutely wouldn't know.

781
00:47:06.320 --> 00:47:09.079
<v Speaker 3>It's one of three by aircraft type. It certainly could

782
00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:13.079
<v Speaker 3>either have been the Egyptians or the Russians. And quite frankly,

783
00:47:13.840 --> 00:47:19.480
<v Speaker 3>the Egyptians had filed several complaints about the liberty already.

784
00:47:19.960 --> 00:47:22.400
<v Speaker 3>That's one of the reasons the orders had been issued

785
00:47:22.440 --> 00:47:29.840
<v Speaker 3>that didn't get there for them because the Egyptians, probably

786
00:47:29.920 --> 00:47:33.800
<v Speaker 3>rightly enough, We're assuming that the US was in support

787
00:47:33.880 --> 00:47:38.679
<v Speaker 3>of Israel and that this ship was there providing intelligence.

788
00:47:39.159 --> 00:47:41.920
<v Speaker 3>So it's like move your darn ship, or will attack it.

789
00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:44.880
<v Speaker 3>So the first thought may well have been, well, the

790
00:47:44.920 --> 00:47:48.039
<v Speaker 3>Egyptians told us to move it, and we didn't move it,

791
00:47:48.159 --> 00:47:49.159
<v Speaker 3>so they're attacking it.

792
00:47:49.360 --> 00:47:52.199
<v Speaker 2>And again the context is this is the Sixth Day War,

793
00:47:52.400 --> 00:47:55.119
<v Speaker 2>where Israel, who is an ally of the US, is

794
00:47:55.199 --> 00:48:01.039
<v Speaker 2>engaged actively in warfare with Egypt. Just saying so you

795
00:48:01.119 --> 00:48:04.639
<v Speaker 2>might say, well, look, there's the Israeli ally ship, and

796
00:48:05.039 --> 00:48:07.480
<v Speaker 2>that might make sense that they would attack, So I'm

797
00:48:07.559 --> 00:48:10.519
<v Speaker 2>just just throwing that in for context. Larry, Sorry to

798
00:48:10.599 --> 00:48:12.519
<v Speaker 2>delay you again with a question, but I thought it

799
00:48:12.559 --> 00:48:16.119
<v Speaker 2>was necessary. Please continue on, though, because I know you

800
00:48:16.199 --> 00:48:17.599
<v Speaker 2>got a lot more you want to get to in

801
00:48:17.639 --> 00:48:20.880
<v Speaker 2>the next like say, twelve minutes, so you know, go ahead.

802
00:48:21.119 --> 00:48:22.400
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, yeah.

803
00:48:22.559 --> 00:48:25.840
<v Speaker 3>I think what that really boils down to is when

804
00:48:25.880 --> 00:48:29.679
<v Speaker 3>this is written about most people that write about it,

805
00:48:30.360 --> 00:48:33.840
<v Speaker 3>you know, this should actually be written about by military

806
00:48:33.920 --> 00:48:39.480
<v Speaker 3>historians because they understand the decision making process and the

807
00:48:39.480 --> 00:48:45.199
<v Speaker 3>communications channels and the whatever. Because otherwise, you know, it

808
00:48:45.320 --> 00:48:49.800
<v Speaker 3>seems so simple, somebody's attacking us, sendplanes and shoot them down.

809
00:48:50.559 --> 00:48:53.719
<v Speaker 4>Well okay, it's not that.

810
00:48:53.800 --> 00:48:57.480
<v Speaker 3>Simple, just to get the right message, because you know,

811
00:48:58.280 --> 00:49:01.239
<v Speaker 3>there's no direct that this is not a situation where

812
00:49:01.280 --> 00:49:07.519
<v Speaker 3>this ship is in direct control of a military group.

813
00:49:08.159 --> 00:49:08.360
<v Speaker 6>You know.

814
00:49:08.559 --> 00:49:10.800
<v Speaker 4>And and one of the reasons I brought.

815
00:49:10.559 --> 00:49:14.760
<v Speaker 3>In in the Pueblo, which is probably not time to

816
00:49:14.800 --> 00:49:18.480
<v Speaker 3>talk about, is the Pueblo was much the same operating

817
00:49:18.519 --> 00:49:19.880
<v Speaker 3>off North Korea.

818
00:49:21.679 --> 00:49:22.199
<v Speaker 4>It had been.

819
00:49:22.559 --> 00:49:25.000
<v Speaker 3>The ship had been threatened by the North Koreans, just

820
00:49:25.039 --> 00:49:28.079
<v Speaker 3>as the Liberty had been essentially threatened by the Egyptians.

821
00:49:29.079 --> 00:49:34.039
<v Speaker 4>We had no military support directly available to it. On call.

822
00:49:34.760 --> 00:49:38.760
<v Speaker 3>Uh. There were people in Navy aircraft monitoring what was

823
00:49:38.800 --> 00:49:43.920
<v Speaker 3>going on, but they they had no command authority. They

824
00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:46.519
<v Speaker 3>didn't have the right, you know, the Pueblo. They couldn't

825
00:49:46.559 --> 00:49:50.320
<v Speaker 3>just call up the Pueblo and say, oh, we called

826
00:49:50.360 --> 00:49:51.920
<v Speaker 3>and help us on the way.

827
00:49:51.960 --> 00:49:53.559
<v Speaker 4>They didn't have that command authority.

828
00:49:53.719 --> 00:49:57.840
<v Speaker 3>They can only circulate it through channels and and all

829
00:49:57.880 --> 00:50:01.800
<v Speaker 3>of that is fine for situations where you have, you know,

830
00:50:01.880 --> 00:50:05.320
<v Speaker 3>a couple of hours or half a day to make

831
00:50:05.360 --> 00:50:09.360
<v Speaker 3>a decision to commit forces. But when your ship is

832
00:50:09.400 --> 00:50:13.039
<v Speaker 3>already under attack, it's a different ballgame. And that's what

833
00:50:13.119 --> 00:50:15.559
<v Speaker 3>we were looking at with a liberty. So the only

834
00:50:15.599 --> 00:50:18.920
<v Speaker 3>thing I'm inserting here is that it's it's best to

835
00:50:18.960 --> 00:50:21.920
<v Speaker 3>look at what the military historians are writing about it.

836
00:50:21.960 --> 00:50:25.159
<v Speaker 3>And I think you will find the military historians that

837
00:50:25.239 --> 00:50:29.360
<v Speaker 3>write about both those incidents as well as these days

838
00:50:29.400 --> 00:50:33.920
<v Speaker 3>about the Gulf of Conkent are extremely critical and they're

839
00:50:33.960 --> 00:50:35.639
<v Speaker 3>not giving anybody breaks.

840
00:50:35.920 --> 00:50:38.719
<v Speaker 2>Right. But the Pueblo occurred in nineteen sixty eight, just

841
00:50:38.800 --> 00:50:41.960
<v Speaker 2>for the record, and it was seized along with its

842
00:50:42.039 --> 00:50:46.360
<v Speaker 2>crew eighty three crew members, I believe, and you know,

843
00:50:46.679 --> 00:50:50.119
<v Speaker 2>you're looking at a different atmosphere in which it occurred,

844
00:50:50.320 --> 00:50:56.239
<v Speaker 2>but similar and parallel circumstances could be could be recognized

845
00:50:56.280 --> 00:50:56.880
<v Speaker 2>here as well.

846
00:50:57.159 --> 00:51:02.719
<v Speaker 3>Right, Well, actually I would say not that that much different, Chuck,

847
00:51:02.800 --> 00:51:06.280
<v Speaker 3>because at the time it was sent against North Korea,

848
00:51:06.840 --> 00:51:11.960
<v Speaker 3>North Korea had just attacked South Korea overtly with several

849
00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:17.159
<v Speaker 3>sabotage missions. They'd attempted to assassinate the South Korean president.

850
00:51:19.039 --> 00:51:24.599
<v Speaker 3>So the the temperature on the Korean print peninsula was

851
00:51:24.920 --> 00:51:28.079
<v Speaker 3>not quite as hot as it was you know with

852
00:51:28.199 --> 00:51:32.000
<v Speaker 3>Israel in Egypt, but it was it was hot, right,

853
00:51:32.079 --> 00:51:36.599
<v Speaker 3>And and the problem being that again you're you're sending

854
00:51:37.119 --> 00:51:41.880
<v Speaker 3>unarmed vessels with with no immediate military support.

855
00:51:41.960 --> 00:51:42.360
<v Speaker 2>I guess it.

856
00:51:42.559 --> 00:51:46.159
<v Speaker 3>It gives back to the argument why are you doing this?

857
00:51:46.480 --> 00:51:49.199
<v Speaker 3>Are you trying to be deniable? Well, no, you're flying

858
00:51:49.199 --> 00:51:52.880
<v Speaker 3>your flag. So if you're going to do that, the

859
00:51:52.920 --> 00:51:56.000
<v Speaker 3>only ring, as I bring this forth, is that we're

860
00:51:56.000 --> 00:51:58.719
<v Speaker 3>going to be running in and already been running into

861
00:51:58.760 --> 00:52:05.400
<v Speaker 3>this same thing in Europe right with surveillance aircraft, and

862
00:52:05.639 --> 00:52:08.639
<v Speaker 3>we're still we're still playing these high risk games with

863
00:52:08.800 --> 00:52:17.159
<v Speaker 3>flying are unarmed intelligence craft directly against armed Russian interceptors,

864
00:52:18.679 --> 00:52:20.880
<v Speaker 3>you know, and things can.

865
00:52:20.760 --> 00:52:24.599
<v Speaker 2>Go bad, well, and some people might argue that that

866
00:52:24.760 --> 00:52:27.159
<v Speaker 2>is a good way to get a provocation, because if

867
00:52:27.159 --> 00:52:31.360
<v Speaker 2>an armed Russian aircraft shoots down an unarmed US aircraft,

868
00:52:31.800 --> 00:52:35.880
<v Speaker 2>then we have a serious problem here, don't we, or

869
00:52:35.920 --> 00:52:38.039
<v Speaker 2>at least if that's what's reporting, or.

870
00:52:38.400 --> 00:52:41.159
<v Speaker 3>My response to that would be that that is a

871
00:52:42.599 --> 00:52:45.440
<v Speaker 3>you have no choice, your only choice, and that is

872
00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:50.480
<v Speaker 3>do you go collect intelligence and have it if something

873
00:52:50.920 --> 00:52:55.719
<v Speaker 3>goes bad? Or do you not collect intelligence? And you

874
00:52:55.760 --> 00:52:59.199
<v Speaker 3>know that's it's do or don't?

875
00:52:59.239 --> 00:52:59.840
<v Speaker 4>You're damned.

876
00:53:00.320 --> 00:53:03.599
<v Speaker 3>I mean, if it's easy to explain why you didn't

877
00:53:03.599 --> 00:53:05.840
<v Speaker 3>do it, well, I didn't want to put anybody at risk,

878
00:53:06.559 --> 00:53:08.800
<v Speaker 3>or if something goes bad, then you say, well I

879
00:53:08.840 --> 00:53:11.400
<v Speaker 3>didn't have the information, and I'll take.

880
00:53:11.280 --> 00:53:13.000
<v Speaker 4>You all the way back to Pearl Harbor.

881
00:53:13.599 --> 00:53:17.760
<v Speaker 3>When they did not conduct the reconnaissance missions off of

882
00:53:17.920 --> 00:53:21.119
<v Speaker 3>y that had been planned and missed the Japanese fleet.

883
00:53:21.400 --> 00:53:25.280
<v Speaker 3>That's hard to explain too, right, you know, there's simple.

884
00:53:25.639 --> 00:53:30.400
<v Speaker 3>Simple answers are not usually the best hanstress in these situations.

885
00:53:30.440 --> 00:53:33.320
<v Speaker 2>No, not at all. But the counter argument, obviously is

886
00:53:33.400 --> 00:53:36.360
<v Speaker 2>we are capable of flying drones so that you don't

887
00:53:36.360 --> 00:53:39.199
<v Speaker 2>have to risk human life and the drones don't have

888
00:53:39.280 --> 00:53:41.800
<v Speaker 2>to be armed or they could be armed. Okay, but

889
00:53:41.880 --> 00:53:44.960
<v Speaker 2>here we go. These are different decisions. And now did

890
00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:47.719
<v Speaker 2>you provoke because you were armed, or did you provoke

891
00:53:47.800 --> 00:53:50.440
<v Speaker 2>because you invaded space? Or did you provoke because you

892
00:53:50.440 --> 00:53:54.880
<v Speaker 2>were spying? And all of these questions become valid depending

893
00:53:54.960 --> 00:53:57.880
<v Speaker 2>on the circumstance. I would suggest that we should be

894
00:53:57.960 --> 00:54:01.840
<v Speaker 2>utilizing our drone forces. I'll lot more heavily here to

895
00:54:01.960 --> 00:54:05.280
<v Speaker 2>not risk life to collect intelligence. But some people would

896
00:54:05.400 --> 00:54:08.719
<v Speaker 2>argue the drones are not quite ready to collect the nuanced.

897
00:54:09.039 --> 00:54:11.119
<v Speaker 4>The drones are definitely not quite ready.

898
00:54:11.280 --> 00:54:15.800
<v Speaker 3>We do not have drone platforms with anywhere near the

899
00:54:15.840 --> 00:54:21.159
<v Speaker 3>signals intelligence capability. It's not even it's fantasizing to think

900
00:54:21.199 --> 00:54:22.760
<v Speaker 3>that you could do that right now.

901
00:54:23.599 --> 00:54:26.039
<v Speaker 4>In fact, I mean you're talking about.

902
00:54:26.239 --> 00:54:32.239
<v Speaker 3>Flying plane loads of signals intelligence personnel and collections. And

903
00:54:32.559 --> 00:54:35.920
<v Speaker 3>we can do photo intelligence with the drones pretty effectively,

904
00:54:37.400 --> 00:54:40.519
<v Speaker 3>so that you can handle with the drones, but signals

905
00:54:40.559 --> 00:54:44.760
<v Speaker 3>intelligence is much tougher, and especially if you're trying to

906
00:54:44.760 --> 00:54:50.679
<v Speaker 3>do like real time signals and intelligence and elent electronics intelligence.

907
00:54:51.239 --> 00:54:54.239
<v Speaker 3>We just it would be nice if you could do

908
00:54:54.320 --> 00:54:59.000
<v Speaker 3>that all from space or you know, but right at

909
00:54:59.000 --> 00:55:02.480
<v Speaker 3>the moment, and I will tell you The argument is

910
00:55:02.559 --> 00:55:06.039
<v Speaker 3>all over military discussions, is when could we get there?

911
00:55:06.400 --> 00:55:09.000
<v Speaker 3>Do we really need to build the next generation of

912
00:55:09.000 --> 00:55:12.119
<v Speaker 3>this aircraft or can we do it all from satellites?

913
00:55:12.280 --> 00:55:14.360
<v Speaker 3>You know that argument is in play today.

914
00:55:15.400 --> 00:55:18.000
<v Speaker 2>Yes, so I just bring it up because I think

915
00:55:18.039 --> 00:55:23.000
<v Speaker 2>it's worthy of discussion to just at least demonstrate exactly

916
00:55:23.039 --> 00:55:26.840
<v Speaker 2>how layered and nuanced these discussions are required to be.

917
00:55:29.159 --> 00:55:31.840
<v Speaker 4>How about convoluted? He can we throw that into.

918
00:55:31.760 --> 00:55:33.920
<v Speaker 2>We can throw it convoluted to Look, you can get

919
00:55:33.920 --> 00:55:36.880
<v Speaker 2>to a convoluted point with all this, because it is exhausting,

920
00:55:37.280 --> 00:55:40.599
<v Speaker 2>quite honestly, these are not simple. This is what pisses

921
00:55:40.639 --> 00:55:44.039
<v Speaker 2>me off. But Larry, I'm sorry to you know, editorialize

922
00:55:44.079 --> 00:55:50.079
<v Speaker 2>real quick here. But very simple minded people, you know,

923
00:55:50.199 --> 00:55:53.519
<v Speaker 2>you might say that they are less complicated and therefore

924
00:55:53.559 --> 00:55:56.239
<v Speaker 2>clarity is great. You might admire it. But they have

925
00:55:56.320 --> 00:56:01.360
<v Speaker 2>simple answers for things, but they do not answer anything

926
00:56:01.440 --> 00:56:06.920
<v Speaker 2>correctly if they don't recognize the complexity of the circumstance. Look,

927
00:56:07.000 --> 00:56:08.679
<v Speaker 2>I could just tell you there's a good guy and

928
00:56:08.719 --> 00:56:10.519
<v Speaker 2>a bad guy, and we should always side with the

929
00:56:10.559 --> 00:56:15.199
<v Speaker 2>good guy. But that is not a clear demarcation unless

930
00:56:15.239 --> 00:56:19.880
<v Speaker 2>you're five years old. Larry, I mean, it's just that simple.

931
00:56:20.639 --> 00:56:22.920
<v Speaker 2>You know, there's a reason why we are allied with

932
00:56:22.960 --> 00:56:27.119
<v Speaker 2>some people that are somewhat despicable morally, sometimes because they're

933
00:56:27.199 --> 00:56:33.320
<v Speaker 2>necessary in order to not allow something more despicable to emerge.

934
00:56:34.079 --> 00:56:38.039
<v Speaker 2>That is something that I don't like. I'm not in

935
00:56:38.079 --> 00:56:41.079
<v Speaker 2>love with any of that concept, you know, Like, why

936
00:56:41.119 --> 00:56:43.360
<v Speaker 2>is it we're supporting this strong man over here? Yeah,

937
00:56:43.360 --> 00:56:47.199
<v Speaker 2>I know why, but it doesn't mean it's always justified.

938
00:56:47.280 --> 00:56:51.000
<v Speaker 2>But it also does not mean it's always unjustified. Okay,

939
00:56:52.039 --> 00:56:56.639
<v Speaker 2>And this is the problem with facing these decisions. Okay,

940
00:56:57.000 --> 00:56:59.280
<v Speaker 2>Ai is not going to do it for you. You

941
00:56:59.320 --> 00:57:03.760
<v Speaker 2>want that, you really go ask groc how you fix this? Fine,

942
00:57:03.880 --> 00:57:06.360
<v Speaker 2>but I'm not living that way. We need intelligent people

943
00:57:06.400 --> 00:57:08.639
<v Speaker 2>to be able to sort through these things, and we

944
00:57:08.679 --> 00:57:11.679
<v Speaker 2>needed them then and we need them now. So anyway,

945
00:57:11.719 --> 00:57:13.519
<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry. I know I took up a whole minute

946
00:57:13.519 --> 00:57:15.960
<v Speaker 2>of your time with that, but I think it's necessary

947
00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:19.480
<v Speaker 2>to say and please continue on though, I mean, because

948
00:57:19.559 --> 00:57:20.880
<v Speaker 2>we're going to want to tie a bow on this

949
00:57:20.920 --> 00:57:23.440
<v Speaker 2>in the next couple of minutes. I think, just to

950
00:57:23.480 --> 00:57:26.000
<v Speaker 2>give people a snapshot. I mean, obviously there is a

951
00:57:26.119 --> 00:57:30.000
<v Speaker 2>much more nuanced discussion that we could have. We could

952
00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:33.840
<v Speaker 2>probably just discuss the uss liberty for the next three hours, Larry,

953
00:57:33.880 --> 00:57:39.239
<v Speaker 2>without too much effort getting into different details, different let's

954
00:57:39.280 --> 00:57:43.440
<v Speaker 2>call them time periods in the timeline of this entire incident,

955
00:57:43.840 --> 00:57:47.440
<v Speaker 2>and talk about mistakes that were made, talk about things

956
00:57:47.480 --> 00:57:51.519
<v Speaker 2>that might be represented as mistakes which were intentional, and

957
00:57:51.559 --> 00:57:55.159
<v Speaker 2>everything else. And we could talk about it and really

958
00:57:55.400 --> 00:57:58.519
<v Speaker 2>waste no time doing it, going over brand new things

959
00:57:58.639 --> 00:58:02.599
<v Speaker 2>all the way through. But what is the point of

960
00:58:02.639 --> 00:58:05.159
<v Speaker 2>our discussion tonight is really where I think we should

961
00:58:05.559 --> 00:58:08.480
<v Speaker 2>kind of conclude this, if you don't mind, And I mean,

962
00:58:08.519 --> 00:58:10.519
<v Speaker 2>obviously take up as much time as you want or

963
00:58:10.559 --> 00:58:14.039
<v Speaker 2>as little as you see fit, but I think it's

964
00:58:14.079 --> 00:58:16.599
<v Speaker 2>relevant and I think we at least touched on some

965
00:58:16.639 --> 00:58:19.599
<v Speaker 2>of this stuff. We didn't complete the entirety of the

966
00:58:19.679 --> 00:58:23.639
<v Speaker 2>discussion by any means, but you know, do you think

967
00:58:23.639 --> 00:58:26.079
<v Speaker 2>that's fair enough? You want to take extra time? You

968
00:58:26.119 --> 00:58:26.719
<v Speaker 2>want to conclude?

969
00:58:26.800 --> 00:58:27.000
<v Speaker 1>Now?

970
00:58:27.320 --> 00:58:30.639
<v Speaker 2>All on you, Larry. I leave it to you now.

971
00:58:30.719 --> 00:58:33.000
<v Speaker 3>And I think I might expand it just a little bit.

972
00:58:33.079 --> 00:58:37.719
<v Speaker 3>And we earlier on in the in the book kind

973
00:58:37.719 --> 00:58:40.440
<v Speaker 3>of like, Okay, why did you write the book Surprise Attack?

974
00:58:40.559 --> 00:58:40.719
<v Speaker 1>Well?

975
00:58:40.760 --> 00:58:44.000
<v Speaker 3>I wanted to see if we always behave the same

976
00:58:44.039 --> 00:58:44.880
<v Speaker 3>way every time.

977
00:58:44.960 --> 00:58:45.880
<v Speaker 4>Does it get better?

978
00:58:45.960 --> 00:58:49.400
<v Speaker 3>And there are different different emergencies, you know, do we

979
00:58:49.880 --> 00:58:53.840
<v Speaker 3>how do we sprun it each time? Was Dallas anomaloust

980
00:58:54.119 --> 00:58:57.760
<v Speaker 3>Okay fine answered that question in the book, but that

981
00:58:57.960 --> 00:59:01.440
<v Speaker 3>wasn't ended up getting in the same question that you're

982
00:59:01.480 --> 00:59:05.199
<v Speaker 3>talking about right now, Chuck, and as that's what can

983
00:59:05.239 --> 00:59:08.400
<v Speaker 3>we learn from this and what should we concern ourselves

984
00:59:08.480 --> 00:59:11.440
<v Speaker 3>about and what could we take away from our reactions

985
00:59:11.480 --> 00:59:17.400
<v Speaker 3>to all these different types of national security level surprise attacks, threats,

986
00:59:17.480 --> 00:59:20.840
<v Speaker 3>whatever that might do us some good in this day

987
00:59:20.840 --> 00:59:25.559
<v Speaker 3>and time. And I'll say something that's not going to happen,

988
00:59:25.719 --> 00:59:28.440
<v Speaker 3>but what really should happen and what can be learned

989
00:59:28.480 --> 00:59:33.039
<v Speaker 3>from all of this is every new president who takes

990
00:59:33.079 --> 00:59:39.239
<v Speaker 3>the role of commander in chief assumes the military responsibility. Now,

991
00:59:39.639 --> 00:59:44.440
<v Speaker 3>some of our presidents, Ice Ainower, Kennisy had some ideas

992
00:59:45.199 --> 00:59:50.000
<v Speaker 3>and had ideas about you know, chains of command communications issues.

993
00:59:50.559 --> 00:59:54.480
<v Speaker 3>You know, when John Kennedy said, you know, I'm going

994
00:59:54.559 --> 00:59:58.599
<v Speaker 3>to order everybody to stand down, and you know, but

995
00:59:58.960 --> 01:00:02.840
<v Speaker 3>some sobs going to get the message. So, you know,

996
01:00:04.039 --> 01:00:06.760
<v Speaker 3>McNamara and Bobby, would you get over to sink Atlantic

997
01:00:06.800 --> 01:00:10.119
<v Speaker 3>and make sure they don't sink any Russian submarines. He

998
01:00:10.199 --> 01:00:14.760
<v Speaker 3>knew what was going on, He understands, understood how things operate,

999
01:00:14.880 --> 01:00:18.800
<v Speaker 3>and so he was cautious and he was educated. Most

1000
01:00:18.840 --> 01:00:22.039
<v Speaker 3>of our presidents don't have that experience, don't have a

1001
01:00:22.079 --> 01:00:27.639
<v Speaker 3>military experience. So it has been kind of a rule

1002
01:00:27.760 --> 01:00:33.840
<v Speaker 3>that new administrations go through essentially I will call them training,

1003
01:00:34.079 --> 01:00:39.639
<v Speaker 3>but a certainly education on these practices, on command and control, practices,

1004
01:00:40.360 --> 01:00:42.960
<v Speaker 3>on the nuclear response.

1005
01:00:43.119 --> 01:00:46.039
<v Speaker 4>You know what is the what is the bomb book?

1006
01:00:46.119 --> 01:00:47.639
<v Speaker 4>What's in it? What is the sye op?

1007
01:00:48.079 --> 01:00:51.320
<v Speaker 3>What you know if if we come to you like

1008
01:00:51.360 --> 01:00:55.280
<v Speaker 3>they did to a president on nine to eleven, and

1009
01:00:55.360 --> 01:00:59.400
<v Speaker 3>you're in a kindergarten with a group of kids reading books,

1010
01:00:59.719 --> 01:01:03.000
<v Speaker 3>and they come to you and say, we're under attack,

1011
01:01:03.159 --> 01:01:06.400
<v Speaker 3>mister president, what do you want us to do? You

1012
01:01:06.440 --> 01:01:09.400
<v Speaker 3>should have thought about this before. You should have let

1013
01:01:09.480 --> 01:01:13.719
<v Speaker 3>them run you through some drills, some simulations. You know

1014
01:01:13.760 --> 01:01:16.599
<v Speaker 3>where to go, you don't insist on staying where you are,

1015
01:01:18.000 --> 01:01:21.079
<v Speaker 3>and it needs to have been addressed before the event happens,

1016
01:01:21.119 --> 01:01:24.599
<v Speaker 3>if you have even a halfway chance of responding. This

1017
01:01:24.760 --> 01:01:28.159
<v Speaker 3>is supposed to be part of the training for new administrations.

1018
01:01:28.440 --> 01:01:31.559
<v Speaker 3>In many cases, the Secretary of Defense can be helpful

1019
01:01:31.920 --> 01:01:37.719
<v Speaker 3>if their former military of the right level, you know,

1020
01:01:37.840 --> 01:01:40.840
<v Speaker 3>they've got to have the kind of experience Eisenhower did

1021
01:01:41.559 --> 01:01:45.519
<v Speaker 3>up there at that level of the Pentagon. But what

1022
01:01:45.599 --> 01:01:49.880
<v Speaker 3>concerns me right at the moment is some administrations have

1023
01:01:49.960 --> 01:01:53.920
<v Speaker 3>done that and have taken that training and we're prepared.

1024
01:01:55.079 --> 01:01:59.320
<v Speaker 3>I'm totally uncertain that the current administration has prepared itself

1025
01:01:59.760 --> 01:02:02.719
<v Speaker 3>to handle these kind of contingencies.

1026
01:02:02.840 --> 01:02:03.039
<v Speaker 2>Well.

1027
01:02:03.079 --> 01:02:04.360
<v Speaker 4>Also, we used to have.

1028
01:02:05.000 --> 01:02:08.599
<v Speaker 2>Sorry, but Kennedy had enough experience even though you know,

1029
01:02:08.639 --> 01:02:10.320
<v Speaker 2>people say, oh, you know, he was just given a

1030
01:02:10.400 --> 01:02:13.159
<v Speaker 2>job in the Navy and all that, but his experience

1031
01:02:13.480 --> 01:02:16.679
<v Speaker 2>was enough to let him know to inform him that

1032
01:02:16.800 --> 01:02:20.079
<v Speaker 2>somewhere along the chain of command, guess what stuff gets missed.

1033
01:02:20.719 --> 01:02:25.119
<v Speaker 2>And someone who didn't have that experience might not be

1034
01:02:25.239 --> 01:02:28.840
<v Speaker 2>aware that that's the thing. Okay, they might think of

1035
01:02:28.880 --> 01:02:31.760
<v Speaker 2>the military as you know, infallible when it comes to

1036
01:02:31.800 --> 01:02:35.360
<v Speaker 2>communicating orders and they're ordered, therefore they do it. I

1037
01:02:35.400 --> 01:02:38.199
<v Speaker 2>think Kennedy had enough experience to know that that informed

1038
01:02:38.199 --> 01:02:41.519
<v Speaker 2>that decision to send Macnamara to do what he did.

1039
01:02:42.000 --> 01:02:44.000
<v Speaker 2>Unless I'm crazy, I mean, could you not see it

1040
01:02:44.000 --> 01:02:44.519
<v Speaker 2>that way? God?

1041
01:02:44.599 --> 01:02:48.599
<v Speaker 4>No, absolutely needed to have that experience or or you

1042
01:02:48.719 --> 01:02:50.840
<v Speaker 4>have to here. Here's another example. I think it's a

1043
01:02:50.840 --> 01:02:51.480
<v Speaker 4>good example.

1044
01:02:53.039 --> 01:02:55.679
<v Speaker 3>We all, all of us who have historically dealt with

1045
01:02:55.719 --> 01:03:01.199
<v Speaker 3>the Nixon administration knew that that, you know, Nixon was.

1046
01:03:02.719 --> 01:03:06.519
<v Speaker 4>Pretty gung ho. He was even.

1047
01:03:06.360 --> 01:03:14.880
<v Speaker 3>Considered a madman philosophy, talking strictly to Kissinger and stopped

1048
01:03:14.920 --> 01:03:18.079
<v Speaker 3>talking to McNamara, and that took us into a really

1049
01:03:18.239 --> 01:03:22.320
<v Speaker 3>risky space because he started doing things that we really

1050
01:03:22.360 --> 01:03:26.599
<v Speaker 3>intended to convince that the Soviets, we were really in

1051
01:03:26.679 --> 01:03:30.239
<v Speaker 3>China to go nuclear in Vietnam, you know so. But

1052
01:03:30.360 --> 01:03:34.199
<v Speaker 3>he did that without on his own being advised strictly

1053
01:03:34.719 --> 01:03:40.119
<v Speaker 3>by Henry Kissinger, who had no appropriate experience. Ronald Reagan

1054
01:03:40.599 --> 01:03:44.159
<v Speaker 3>started going off on the same track, doing some pretty

1055
01:03:45.159 --> 01:03:50.800
<v Speaker 3>dangerous things strategically to impress the Soviets. But interestingly, this

1056
01:03:50.920 --> 01:03:54.320
<v Speaker 3>is just it shows you how much things can change.

1057
01:03:54.840 --> 01:03:57.480
<v Speaker 3>He was he had done an appearance, I think it

1058
01:03:57.519 --> 01:04:03.079
<v Speaker 3>was in Florida and something. In any event, he scheduled

1059
01:04:03.119 --> 01:04:07.639
<v Speaker 3>to fly back to d C on the Nuclear Command aircraft,

1060
01:04:08.000 --> 01:04:14.519
<v Speaker 3>the Kneecap aircraft, the Strategic Emergency Response aircraft. And while

1061
01:04:14.519 --> 01:04:17.920
<v Speaker 3>he was on his flight, they actually said, tell me

1062
01:04:17.920 --> 01:04:20.840
<v Speaker 3>this thing works, and so they ran him through a

1063
01:04:20.920 --> 01:04:26.719
<v Speaker 3>nuclear attack drill and showed him the displays cities being destroyed,

1064
01:04:27.440 --> 01:04:30.360
<v Speaker 3>went through the syop with him, and it scared him

1065
01:04:30.400 --> 01:04:34.840
<v Speaker 3>to death, rightly so, and it changed that along with

1066
01:04:35.000 --> 01:04:40.360
<v Speaker 3>watching the movie about a renuclear attack, changed his total approach.

1067
01:04:40.880 --> 01:04:42.800
<v Speaker 3>Then moved us into negotiations.

1068
01:04:42.880 --> 01:04:46.440
<v Speaker 2>That was the day after which coincidentally provoked me to

1069
01:04:46.440 --> 01:04:48.280
<v Speaker 2>write a letter to President Reagan. And that's how I

1070
01:04:48.280 --> 01:04:51.599
<v Speaker 2>got on the FBI file and everything. But ahead, yeah,

1071
01:04:51.599 --> 01:04:53.400
<v Speaker 2>go ahead, I was twelve.

1072
01:04:53.440 --> 01:04:55.480
<v Speaker 3>That's the way this is supposed that's the way this

1073
01:04:55.599 --> 01:04:58.280
<v Speaker 3>is supposed to happen. If you have a commander in chief,

1074
01:04:58.679 --> 01:05:02.039
<v Speaker 3>they're supposed to get deep enough into this. I won't

1075
01:05:02.039 --> 01:05:07.320
<v Speaker 3>say to get scared, but to understand the consequences, because

1076
01:05:07.360 --> 01:05:12.159
<v Speaker 3>it's always about the consequences. Now, consequences will be can

1077
01:05:12.239 --> 01:05:14.400
<v Speaker 3>sometimes be when you do need to respond.

1078
01:05:15.159 --> 01:05:16.079
<v Speaker 4>Okay, Like.

1079
01:05:17.840 --> 01:05:19.800
<v Speaker 3>I know, I get all over the place, but it's

1080
01:05:19.880 --> 01:05:25.880
<v Speaker 3>like Roosevelt and the War Department messaged our commander in

1081
01:05:25.960 --> 01:05:30.519
<v Speaker 3>the Philippines that Hawaii had been attacked, and in ten hours,

1082
01:05:30.519 --> 01:05:34.960
<v Speaker 3>with ten hours of warnings, MacArthur did absolutely nothing, you know,

1083
01:05:35.119 --> 01:05:40.440
<v Speaker 3>So sometimes it's good to react to a situation he

1084
01:05:40.519 --> 01:05:44.280
<v Speaker 3>let all his bombers be clobbered on the ground. Sad

1085
01:05:44.360 --> 01:05:48.000
<v Speaker 3>story there, So it can swing either way. Sometimes you

1086
01:05:48.079 --> 01:05:49.840
<v Speaker 3>have to react. Sometimes it's better not.

1087
01:05:49.840 --> 01:05:53.239
<v Speaker 4>To react, but they have to be educated.

1088
01:05:53.280 --> 01:05:55.239
<v Speaker 3>So the way I would tie a bowl about it

1089
01:05:55.320 --> 01:05:58.400
<v Speaker 3>right now, as you often ask me what concerns me,

1090
01:05:58.559 --> 01:06:01.199
<v Speaker 3>and what concerns me right at the moment, is I

1091
01:06:01.239 --> 01:06:04.639
<v Speaker 3>am personally convinced that neither our current secretary of Defense

1092
01:06:05.199 --> 01:06:09.000
<v Speaker 3>nor our commander in chief have had the strategic education

1093
01:06:09.199 --> 01:06:11.719
<v Speaker 3>that they need to have had gone.

1094
01:06:11.440 --> 01:06:12.320
<v Speaker 4>Through the drills.

1095
01:06:13.719 --> 01:06:20.159
<v Speaker 3>After nine to eleven, we even the administrations established a

1096
01:06:20.239 --> 01:06:25.920
<v Speaker 3>series of drills that they're literally that. Let's simulate different

1097
01:06:26.039 --> 01:06:31.800
<v Speaker 3>you know, domestic crises, you know, major earthquake or hurricane,

1098
01:06:31.880 --> 01:06:34.880
<v Speaker 3>how do we respond to that, how do you work

1099
01:06:34.920 --> 01:06:41.920
<v Speaker 3>that situation? Foreign threats again, al Qaeda type attacks, major

1100
01:06:42.280 --> 01:06:47.199
<v Speaker 3>incidents like that, and educated themselves at least spending you know,

1101
01:06:47.320 --> 01:06:50.480
<v Speaker 3>one or two days doing those sorts of things, so

1102
01:06:50.559 --> 01:06:51.440
<v Speaker 3>they had a clue.

1103
01:06:51.519 --> 01:06:54.920
<v Speaker 4>I am not. I'm not convinced that's even happening up

1104
01:06:54.960 --> 01:06:55.280
<v Speaker 4>to now.

1105
01:06:55.320 --> 01:06:57.719
<v Speaker 3>I've been able to search when I wrote Surprise Attack

1106
01:06:58.280 --> 01:07:01.800
<v Speaker 3>and find examples of those exercise is being held I

1107
01:07:01.840 --> 01:07:04.920
<v Speaker 3>don't see them now, so I hope they are, but

1108
01:07:05.159 --> 01:07:05.800
<v Speaker 3>that if you.

1109
01:07:05.760 --> 01:07:07.039
<v Speaker 4>Want me to tie a bow on it.

1110
01:07:07.679 --> 01:07:11.679
<v Speaker 3>After five hundreds of pages of Surprise Attack, seeing what

1111
01:07:11.719 --> 01:07:14.039
<v Speaker 3>we did right and what we did wrong, and after

1112
01:07:14.119 --> 01:07:18.599
<v Speaker 3>nine to eleven what we almost started doing right, I'm

1113
01:07:18.880 --> 01:07:22.840
<v Speaker 3>sincerely concerned that we've continued it fair enough.

1114
01:07:23.000 --> 01:07:28.920
<v Speaker 2>What is this is the reddish hued cover love Larry's books.

1115
01:07:28.920 --> 01:07:32.320
<v Speaker 2>If you're looking at Larry's books online, it's the one

1116
01:07:32.360 --> 01:07:34.440
<v Speaker 2>that jumps out at you because it's red. The whole

1117
01:07:34.480 --> 01:07:37.360
<v Speaker 2>thing is different shades of red and darker red and

1118
01:07:37.400 --> 01:07:40.400
<v Speaker 2>a little bit of black maybe yellow lettering. Anyway, the

1119
01:07:40.400 --> 01:07:42.960
<v Speaker 2>full name of it Surprise Attack from Pearl Harbor to

1120
01:07:43.039 --> 01:07:47.159
<v Speaker 2>nine to eleven to Benghazi. Okay, just saying that's what

1121
01:07:47.239 --> 01:07:50.480
<v Speaker 2>it is. What is the photo there that is in

1122
01:07:50.519 --> 01:07:56.320
<v Speaker 2>this red shade, like as if I'm wearing red hued glasses.

1123
01:07:56.880 --> 01:07:58.000
<v Speaker 4>That would be Pearl Harbor.

1124
01:07:58.320 --> 01:08:02.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, okay, because I definitely recognize, Yeah, I recognize it

1125
01:08:02.519 --> 01:08:06.719
<v Speaker 2>as a ship under attack, looks like you know, based

1126
01:08:06.760 --> 01:08:09.519
<v Speaker 2>on the way the photo is there. But it's again

1127
01:08:09.639 --> 01:08:12.159
<v Speaker 2>all in red and all in shades of red. But

1128
01:08:12.280 --> 01:08:16.399
<v Speaker 2>there you go, seeing it through one particular set of lenses.

1129
01:08:17.079 --> 01:08:19.399
<v Speaker 2>And what you're talking about here is the lack of

1130
01:08:19.439 --> 01:08:21.600
<v Speaker 2>a lens where you get a hint as to what

1131
01:08:21.640 --> 01:08:28.279
<v Speaker 2>the consequences might be of different decisions, communications, and in

1132
01:08:28.399 --> 01:08:33.840
<v Speaker 2>fact provocative actions. And that is something that what has

1133
01:08:33.920 --> 01:08:37.880
<v Speaker 2>not changed. You know, there are consequences to the actions

1134
01:08:37.880 --> 01:08:40.199
<v Speaker 2>you take when you are the command.

1135
01:08:39.920 --> 01:08:44.600
<v Speaker 3>And there are responsibilities, their responsibilities as you know, this

1136
01:08:44.880 --> 01:08:47.920
<v Speaker 3>commander in chief thing goes all the way down to

1137
01:08:48.000 --> 01:08:52.119
<v Speaker 3>the Senate, you know. And on two occasions that I

1138
01:08:52.239 --> 01:08:55.880
<v Speaker 3>write about the guy that was third in command when

1139
01:08:55.920 --> 01:08:59.800
<v Speaker 3>the Secret Service went to get them after a national disaster,

1140
01:09:00.159 --> 01:09:03.800
<v Speaker 3>well after one of these things, basically said no thanks,

1141
01:09:03.840 --> 01:09:08.600
<v Speaker 3>I'm staying here in my apartment. What you know, I

1142
01:09:08.960 --> 01:09:14.000
<v Speaker 3>just it's like, come on, guys, there there are there

1143
01:09:14.039 --> 01:09:18.960
<v Speaker 3>are should be expectations, you know, the secrets you're you're

1144
01:09:19.119 --> 01:09:22.279
<v Speaker 3>now if things go bad, you'll be you know, like

1145
01:09:22.319 --> 01:09:24.199
<v Speaker 3>the designated stay behind guy.

1146
01:09:24.920 --> 01:09:27.279
<v Speaker 4>You know, are you prepared for this? Have you been

1147
01:09:27.319 --> 01:09:30.319
<v Speaker 4>through training? Don't?

1148
01:09:30.560 --> 01:09:33.960
<v Speaker 3>Don't designate the Secretary of agriculture.

1149
01:09:33.840 --> 01:09:35.560
<v Speaker 4>You know when she hasn't?

1150
01:09:36.199 --> 01:09:38.960
<v Speaker 3>What's a sigh out? What's a you know? What is

1151
01:09:39.039 --> 01:09:41.520
<v Speaker 3>our what are our contingency plans?

1152
01:09:41.640 --> 01:09:41.880
<v Speaker 7>Who?

1153
01:09:41.960 --> 01:09:44.479
<v Speaker 4>Who's people.

1154
01:09:44.800 --> 01:09:47.359
<v Speaker 3>People need to be worried about some of these things

1155
01:09:47.840 --> 01:09:49.520
<v Speaker 3>than some of the things they seem.

1156
01:09:49.319 --> 01:09:51.479
<v Speaker 2>To be right, And God help us all, there is

1157
01:09:51.479 --> 01:09:54.600
<v Speaker 2>a reason why a continuity of government you know, uh

1158
01:09:54.840 --> 01:09:58.680
<v Speaker 2>drill exists as well. Where they come up with the scenario,

1159
01:09:58.760 --> 01:10:01.920
<v Speaker 2>what if we lost or couldn't get action out of

1160
01:10:02.399 --> 01:10:06.640
<v Speaker 2>or communication with the upper echelon of the command structure,

1161
01:10:06.760 --> 01:10:10.119
<v Speaker 2>then we have to what, yeah, continuity of government. They

1162
01:10:10.119 --> 01:10:12.880
<v Speaker 2>always take somebody out of the direct you know, succession

1163
01:10:12.920 --> 01:10:17.159
<v Speaker 2>and the presidential uh you know, in the presidential succession,

1164
01:10:17.159 --> 01:10:17.720
<v Speaker 2>excuse me.

1165
01:10:18.159 --> 01:10:21.640
<v Speaker 3>And that's actually easier today than it's ever has been, right,

1166
01:10:21.760 --> 01:10:23.560
<v Speaker 3>I was I always watching it.

1167
01:10:23.720 --> 01:10:24.159
<v Speaker 4>Actually.

1168
01:10:24.359 --> 01:10:27.560
<v Speaker 3>Selensky made a very good point of this at the

1169
01:10:27.680 --> 01:10:31.520
<v Speaker 3>un Selensky said, you all need to learn from our experience.

1170
01:10:32.239 --> 01:10:35.720
<v Speaker 3>Drones are so dangerous and are are going to be

1171
01:10:35.840 --> 01:10:40.079
<v Speaker 3>so long range, and they can be so precisely targeted

1172
01:10:40.560 --> 01:10:42.000
<v Speaker 3>that if you're not aware of the.

1173
01:10:41.920 --> 01:10:43.960
<v Speaker 4>Threat, you know, you can.

1174
01:10:45.560 --> 01:10:52.520
<v Speaker 3>Preemption and decapitation are no longer just atomic issues, right,

1175
01:10:52.880 --> 01:10:57.520
<v Speaker 3>you can do all of that with it pretty cheap

1176
01:10:58.199 --> 01:11:01.319
<v Speaker 3>and available drump zones. And it's only going to get worse.

1177
01:11:01.319 --> 01:11:03.600
<v Speaker 3>So some of those things that we thought about during

1178
01:11:04.119 --> 01:11:07.680
<v Speaker 3>the Cold War that we were preparing for, and we said, oh, well,

1179
01:11:07.800 --> 01:11:10.479
<v Speaker 3>we don't really have to be worried about that anymore,

1180
01:11:10.560 --> 01:11:13.479
<v Speaker 3>because nobody would be stupid enough to use a hydrogen weapon.

1181
01:11:14.000 --> 01:11:15.079
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, but they might.

1182
01:11:15.000 --> 01:11:18.000
<v Speaker 3>Be stupid enough to use, you know, a two thousand

1183
01:11:18.039 --> 01:11:23.359
<v Speaker 3>dollars jet drone and decapitate everybody who's you know, and

1184
01:11:23.920 --> 01:11:29.840
<v Speaker 3>I don't know, some public appearance where the president and

1185
01:11:30.560 --> 01:11:33.760
<v Speaker 3>secretive Area Defense might show up together.

1186
01:11:35.359 --> 01:11:41.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and you know, decapitate and throw into chaos. You know,

1187
01:11:41.439 --> 01:11:46.119
<v Speaker 2>your enemy might actually be a whole lot more financially affordable.

1188
01:11:46.159 --> 01:11:48.920
<v Speaker 2>Actually now, you know, it used to cost a lot

1189
01:11:49.119 --> 01:11:50.640
<v Speaker 2>to get the stuff that you had to do that,

1190
01:11:51.279 --> 01:11:54.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, but you could maybe do it on the

1191
01:11:54.159 --> 01:11:57.159
<v Speaker 2>cheap now. So that's something you need to keep in mind.

1192
01:11:57.159 --> 01:12:02.720
<v Speaker 2>It's maybe more economically viable for many different nation states

1193
01:12:02.880 --> 01:12:05.840
<v Speaker 2>or many different groups of individuals with just enough money

1194
01:12:06.159 --> 01:12:09.479
<v Speaker 2>and the right technology to attempt to accomplish the same goal.

1195
01:12:10.239 --> 01:12:13.720
<v Speaker 2>So there you go, Larry, I really thank you for this.

1196
01:12:13.800 --> 01:12:15.880
<v Speaker 2>I know I took you over time a bit, but

1197
01:12:16.640 --> 01:12:18.720
<v Speaker 2>you wanted to take a few extra minutes to put

1198
01:12:18.760 --> 01:12:21.399
<v Speaker 2>context on it. And I think that is the current

1199
01:12:21.479 --> 01:12:24.520
<v Speaker 2>modern relevance once again. I'll give you links in the

1200
01:12:24.560 --> 01:12:27.840
<v Speaker 2>show notes to Surprise Attack. And again it is that

1201
01:12:28.279 --> 01:12:30.760
<v Speaker 2>book that is read jumps right out at you because

1202
01:12:30.800 --> 01:12:33.239
<v Speaker 2>it's you know, it's not the only one of Larry's

1203
01:12:33.239 --> 01:12:35.359
<v Speaker 2>books that has read, but this whole thing is read

1204
01:12:36.199 --> 01:12:39.000
<v Speaker 2>with just the little gold lettering over it that says

1205
01:12:39.000 --> 01:12:43.720
<v Speaker 2>Surprise Attack. Once again, full title is Surprise Attack from

1206
01:12:43.720 --> 01:12:47.840
<v Speaker 2>Pearl Harbor to nine to eleven to Benghazi, and it

1207
01:12:47.960 --> 01:12:50.960
<v Speaker 2>is definitely worth the read. However it is you pick

1208
01:12:50.960 --> 01:12:53.920
<v Speaker 2>it up, and covers all those events and many more,

1209
01:12:53.960 --> 01:12:58.399
<v Speaker 2>including what we discussed tonight to some degree, and doesn't

1210
01:12:58.439 --> 01:13:02.439
<v Speaker 2>cover things after the Obama administration, because gee, what year

1211
01:13:02.479 --> 01:13:05.319
<v Speaker 2>was it put out there? What year was this book issued?

1212
01:13:05.319 --> 01:13:09.680
<v Speaker 3>I'm sorry, Oh heavens, I'll probably say two twelve, but

1213
01:13:09.760 --> 01:13:10.239
<v Speaker 3>let me look.

1214
01:13:10.279 --> 01:13:12.520
<v Speaker 4>I happen to have it in hand, so.

1215
01:13:13.560 --> 01:13:19.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, take a look, because although see there it is fifteen,

1216
01:13:20.039 --> 01:13:24.560
<v Speaker 2>twenty fifteen, so this is pre Trump, pre Biden, pre Trump. Okay,

1217
01:13:24.680 --> 01:13:30.439
<v Speaker 2>just saying pre drone and pre drone being common. I mean,

1218
01:13:30.520 --> 01:13:33.640
<v Speaker 2>drones were available in the eighties and nineties, but you know,

1219
01:13:33.840 --> 01:13:37.199
<v Speaker 2>they were like big, huge things. Now they're very small

1220
01:13:37.239 --> 01:13:38.760
<v Speaker 2>and again, very economical.

1221
01:13:39.840 --> 01:13:42.079
<v Speaker 3>So I actually even wrote about that in the book

1222
01:13:42.119 --> 01:13:45.520
<v Speaker 3>amazingly enough, and what the Secret Service should be preparing

1223
01:13:45.560 --> 01:13:48.840
<v Speaker 3>to do, because that was at least predictable back then.

1224
01:13:49.000 --> 01:13:54.199
<v Speaker 3>But I visualized nothing like these long range I'm just reading,

1225
01:13:54.279 --> 01:13:58.560
<v Speaker 3>you know, four hundred one thousand mile jet powered drones

1226
01:13:58.640 --> 01:14:01.319
<v Speaker 3>that can be get it, you know, to go in

1227
01:14:01.399 --> 01:14:08.359
<v Speaker 3>a particular window that was in science fiction book magazines

1228
01:14:08.399 --> 01:14:10.399
<v Speaker 3>I was reading back in nineteen fifty seven.

1229
01:14:10.920 --> 01:14:14.279
<v Speaker 2>There you go, and a lot more smarter than ye

1230
01:14:14.279 --> 01:14:17.159
<v Speaker 2>old smart bomb from an era that seems like one

1231
01:14:17.199 --> 01:14:20.680
<v Speaker 2>hundred years ago. Now remember the smart bomb? Yeah, oh boy, yep,

1232
01:14:20.880 --> 01:14:23.199
<v Speaker 2>lots smarter than the smart bomb. So what does that

1233
01:14:23.239 --> 01:14:27.079
<v Speaker 2>make it the genius bomb? I don't know. I'm just

1234
01:14:27.359 --> 01:14:29.880
<v Speaker 2>throwing it out there. But Larry, again, it's really great

1235
01:14:29.880 --> 01:14:31.760
<v Speaker 2>to sit down and talk with you once again and

1236
01:14:31.880 --> 01:14:36.800
<v Speaker 2>put history into context and also remind people that, of course,

1237
01:14:36.960 --> 01:14:39.239
<v Speaker 2>if you don't want history to repeat itself, you better

1238
01:14:39.319 --> 01:14:43.239
<v Speaker 2>learn from it. At least that's the way I word it. Anyways.

1239
01:14:43.680 --> 01:14:47.199
<v Speaker 2>I don't have the best words, but I try any

1240
01:14:48.520 --> 01:14:51.279
<v Speaker 2>little little jab there. But Larry Hancock was my guest

1241
01:14:51.279 --> 01:14:54.279
<v Speaker 2>tonight once again. Larry dash Handcock dot Com the book

1242
01:14:54.319 --> 01:14:58.520
<v Speaker 2>we recommend to focus on this discussion would be surprise attack.

1243
01:14:59.159 --> 01:15:58.319
<v Speaker 2>But don't heard calling.

1244
01:15:58.359 --> 01:16:01.000
<v Speaker 5>I'm just hid in the truth about the assassination.

1245
01:16:01.279 --> 01:16:02.319
<v Speaker 2>Right, Well, what do you want to know.

1246
01:16:02.359 --> 01:16:05.359
<v Speaker 4>Daddy Baker's wild claim Oswald girlfriends he knew?

1247
01:16:05.439 --> 01:16:08.760
<v Speaker 2>Ruby and Barrie answer weapons? Really, I imagine I could claim

1248
01:16:08.760 --> 01:16:10.800
<v Speaker 2>I have four wheels. It doesn't make me a wagon.

1249
01:16:10.880 --> 01:16:13.720
<v Speaker 1>But okay, Oswald was on the building and trying to

1250
01:16:13.720 --> 01:16:15.199
<v Speaker 1>prevent the murder of John Kennedy.

1251
01:16:15.239 --> 01:16:16.319
<v Speaker 5>Come on now has a.

1252
01:16:16.199 --> 01:16:18.119
<v Speaker 4>Real effort on the DAFA assassination.

1253
01:16:18.319 --> 01:16:19.199
<v Speaker 5>Book into claims.

1254
01:16:19.359 --> 01:16:23.359
<v Speaker 2>Go to Amazon dot com enter Judith Baker in her

1255
01:16:23.439 --> 01:16:26.239
<v Speaker 2>own words. You'll get the results for a digital copy

1256
01:16:26.359 --> 01:16:29.720
<v Speaker 2>of a book where Walt Brown utilizes her own words

1257
01:16:29.880 --> 01:16:32.680
<v Speaker 2>and the known evidence in the case to get at

1258
01:16:32.840 --> 01:16:36.600
<v Speaker 2>well a different perspective. Let's say you can get Judithbary

1259
01:16:36.640 --> 01:16:40.159
<v Speaker 2>Baker in her own words from the author himself, signed

1260
01:16:40.239 --> 01:16:43.199
<v Speaker 2>if you request it by contacting doctor Brown at ki

1261
01:16:43.439 --> 01:16:47.640
<v Speaker 2>as jfk at aol dot com. It's a fun book

1262
01:16:47.680 --> 01:16:52.359
<v Speaker 2>and it actually dissects the many, many fantastic claims. Judith

1263
01:16:52.520 --> 01:16:54.239
<v Speaker 2>Ary Baker in her own words.

1264
01:16:54.399 --> 01:16:55.920
<v Speaker 8>Thank you for all the great information.

1265
01:16:56.159 --> 01:16:59.159
<v Speaker 9>Do you like history? Real history that you were never

1266
01:16:59.319 --> 01:17:03.760
<v Speaker 9>taught in school. Why the Vietnam War Nuclear Bombs in

1267
01:17:03.920 --> 01:17:07.880
<v Speaker 9>Nation Building in Southeast Asia by author Mike Swanson, with

1268
01:17:08.079 --> 01:17:12.399
<v Speaker 9>new documentation never seen before that'll open your eyes to

1269
01:17:12.560 --> 01:17:15.960
<v Speaker 9>events that led up to this. Why the Vietnam War

1270
01:17:16.319 --> 01:17:20.880
<v Speaker 9>Nuclear Bombs in Nation Building in Southeast Asia nineteen forty

1271
01:17:21.039 --> 01:17:25.119
<v Speaker 9>five through nineteen sixty one. Get your copy today at

1272
01:17:25.279 --> 01:17:29.800
<v Speaker 9>Amazon dot com. Why the Vietnam War by author Mike

1273
01:17:29.880 --> 01:17:30.800
<v Speaker 9>Swanson is.

1274
01:17:33.960 --> 01:17:34.720
<v Speaker 5>What would I Do?

1275
01:17:36.319 --> 01:17:42.800
<v Speaker 8>Revelation through conversation in a radio show slash podcast. You

1276
01:17:42.880 --> 01:17:48.399
<v Speaker 8>want the good news? Listen to the o'helly effect. Check

1277
01:17:48.479 --> 01:17:54.439
<v Speaker 8>o'celly is the most underrated voice in all media, news, education,

1278
01:17:54.680 --> 01:18:00.520
<v Speaker 8>and entertainment. The daily bread from o'ceelly dot com. Go there,

1279
01:18:01.279 --> 01:18:07.159
<v Speaker 8>save yourself from ignorance ochelly dot com. But we all

1280
01:18:07.239 --> 01:18:10.479
<v Speaker 8>agreed to put o'chelly dot com on and listen to

1281
01:18:10.800 --> 01:18:17.439
<v Speaker 8>the o'helly effect. Revelation through conversation o'helly dot com ge.

1282
01:18:22.520 --> 01:18:29.159
<v Speaker 5>Revel through com sage.

1283
01:18:32.560 --> 01:18:36.079
<v Speaker 7>Here oh.

1284
01:18:37.920 --> 01:18:47.880
<v Speaker 5>Ll o Shelly.

1285
01:18:51.479 --> 01:19:03.159
<v Speaker 6>Say that my Jay R in the World.

1286
01:19:17.079 --> 01:19:20.239
<v Speaker 10>The War State by Michael Swanson explains the great national

1287
01:19:20.319 --> 01:19:23.319
<v Speaker 10>transformation that took place and put the Kennedy presidency in

1288
01:19:23.399 --> 01:19:26.800
<v Speaker 10>the context of the Times and reveals never before published

1289
01:19:26.800 --> 01:19:30.439
<v Speaker 10>information about the Cuban missile crisis. President Kennedy would not

1290
01:19:30.560 --> 01:19:33.199
<v Speaker 10>have been assassinated if he had been president two hundred

1291
01:19:33.239 --> 01:19:36.600
<v Speaker 10>years ago. His assassination took place in the context of

1292
01:19:36.640 --> 01:19:39.600
<v Speaker 10>the Cold War and the rise of the national security state.

1293
01:19:39.720 --> 01:19:43.199
<v Speaker 10>Before World War II, the United States was a continental republic.

1294
01:19:43.600 --> 01:19:46.640
<v Speaker 10>In the decade that followed, it became an imperial superpower.

1295
01:19:46.920 --> 01:19:50.319
<v Speaker 10>Generals such as Curtis LeMay not only wanted to invade Cuba,

1296
01:19:50.560 --> 01:19:52.760
<v Speaker 10>but knew that there were short range missiles on the

1297
01:19:52.840 --> 01:19:55.960
<v Speaker 10>island aren't with nuclear warheads that they could not destroy

1298
01:19:56.079 --> 01:19:58.880
<v Speaker 10>because they were on mobile launchers. Their invasion could have

1299
01:19:59.000 --> 01:20:01.880
<v Speaker 10>led to a Third warld World War, and they wanted

1300
01:20:01.920 --> 01:20:04.800
<v Speaker 10>to go to war anyway. The War State by Michael

1301
01:20:04.840 --> 01:20:08.199
<v Speaker 10>Swanson reveals why and will show you what President Kennedy

1302
01:20:08.319 --> 01:20:11.840
<v Speaker 10>was up against. For more information, the Warstate dot Com.

1303
01:20:12.399 --> 01:20:17.119
<v Speaker 11>In Denial Secret Wars with air strikes and Tanks by

1304
01:20:17.239 --> 01:20:21.720
<v Speaker 11>Larry Hancock. Secret wars became a staple of US covert

1305
01:20:21.760 --> 01:20:26.159
<v Speaker 11>operations and are still happening today. Larryhancock's book In Denial

1306
01:20:26.399 --> 01:20:29.520
<v Speaker 11>rips the cover off, many of them using new files.

1307
01:20:29.560 --> 01:20:31.920
<v Speaker 12>It exposes things about the Bay of Pigs that no

1308
01:20:32.039 --> 01:20:35.000
<v Speaker 12>one has ever written about before. It shows why it

1309
01:20:35.119 --> 01:20:37.960
<v Speaker 12>really failed and why the United States did not learn

1310
01:20:38.039 --> 01:20:40.960
<v Speaker 12>from it. It also shows why other countries today are

1311
01:20:41.079 --> 01:20:44.680
<v Speaker 12>doing secret operations with more success. This is the book

1312
01:20:44.760 --> 01:20:48.159
<v Speaker 12>that puts what some want to deny into the light.

1313
01:20:48.600 --> 01:20:53.720
<v Speaker 2>In Denial secret wars with air strikes and tanks Larryhancock.

1314
01:20:54.880 --> 01:20:58.399
<v Speaker 2>For more information go to Larry hyphen Hancock dot com.

1315
01:20:58.600 --> 01:21:01.640
<v Speaker 2>Pick up your copy of In Denial at Amazon dot

1316
01:21:01.760 --> 01:21:03.920
<v Speaker 2>com in digital or physical.

1317
01:21:04.680 --> 01:21:06.880
<v Speaker 11>Dot com radio network.

1318
01:21:08.439 --> 01:21:16.359
<v Speaker 13>Relation conversation, you are effect conversation.

1319
01:21:24.159 --> 01:21:28.039
<v Speaker 5>Silence broken, broken.

1320
01:21:29.399 --> 01:21:35.920
<v Speaker 13>Commission demonstation relation conversation.

1321
01:21:41.640 --> 01:21:56.840
<v Speaker 5>That the conversation falls, bring straight conversation.

1322
01:21:58.239 --> 01:22:06.560
<v Speaker 13>All strength of the jury of my relation to conversation

1323
01:22:07.800 --> 01:22:18.399
<v Speaker 13>a vision to call first of relation to conversation the doctor.

1324
01:22:19.800 --> 01:22:25.880
<v Speaker 14>The hotest place of raps for the whole the medicine years.

1325
01:22:26.399 --> 01:22:34.760
<v Speaker 14>My main preparation after Okay, demolishment was called my combasador

1326
01:22:35.000 --> 01:22:35.800
<v Speaker 14>of my faith.

1327
01:22:36.000 --> 01:22:39.520
<v Speaker 5>By the chapter of My Soul. You are the.

1328
01:22:41.000 --> 01:22:51.960
<v Speaker 14>Relation through conversation, changing me copy about religion before at home,

1329
01:22:53.840 --> 01:22:58.600
<v Speaker 14>give you say if I'm doing so because I can't

1330
01:22:58.680 --> 01:22:59.039
<v Speaker 14>go to.

1331
01:23:00.800 --> 01:23:00.840
<v Speaker 4>Do.

1332
01:23:00.960 --> 01:23:06.600
<v Speaker 5>I really got the marker and decided that fire t peop.

1333
01:23:08.399 --> 01:23:10.760
<v Speaker 6>Conversation had.

1334
01:23:12.479 --> 01:23:13.439
<v Speaker 7>The effect.

1335
01:23:15.479 --> 01:23:21.680
<v Speaker 5>The compensation train show the effect.

1336
01:23:22.399 --> 01:23:25.920
<v Speaker 6>That's never got ap for my.

1337
01:23:28.199 --> 01:23:34.119
<v Speaker 14>In the concent I have not nor fire alone, can't

1338
01:23:34.199 --> 01:23:38.159
<v Speaker 14>quit money, but I'm bo the effect story.

1339
01:23:38.600 --> 01:23:50.920
<v Speaker 15>Really effect, relation to conversation, conversation.

1340
01:23:53.479 --> 01:23:54.479
<v Speaker 7>All pray.

1341
01:23:55.720 --> 01:23:57.279
<v Speaker 6>Straight show off.

1342
01:24:00.079 --> 01:24:13.920
<v Speaker 5>Relation the conversation, abation through first that may be for my.

1343
01:24:15.600 --> 01:24:19.600
<v Speaker 14>In the concistor, I have not went nor cry aloud

1344
01:24:20.439 --> 01:24:22.479
<v Speaker 14>in suggest bloody.

1345
01:24:24.640 --> 01:24:32.319
<v Speaker 5>The effects, the effect, revelation, the.

1346
01:24:32.439 --> 01:24:48.039
<v Speaker 16>Conversation, conversation, the conversation, compilation, conversation, what the effect.

1347
01:24:48.239 --> 01:24:49.880
<v Speaker 2>The design is broken.

1348
01:24:51.319 --> 01:24:53.159
<v Speaker 8>Revelation through conversation.

1349
01:24:53.439 --> 01:24:55.119
<v Speaker 9>Oh Chili dot com.

1350
01:25:00.079 --> 01:25:10.520
<v Speaker 6>M h if I can tell you what a time?

1351
01:25:10.680 --> 01:25:17.239
<v Speaker 6>The track I've never own on Gabby shall him my bad.

1352
01:25:19.479 --> 01:25:21.920
<v Speaker 6>I got away from making a fast joy. I made

1353
01:25:21.920 --> 01:25:23.439
<v Speaker 6>my mom my talent.

1354
01:25:23.560 --> 01:25:25.560
<v Speaker 15>You buckcast down, never.

1355
01:25:32.880 --> 01:25:49.800
<v Speaker 6>Call back all I tell you go away, shy waiting ducks.

1356
01:25:49.840 --> 01:25:56.279
<v Speaker 6>I got exeas to you tonight, got my clocks.

1357
01:25:56.000 --> 01:25:58.439
<v Speaker 16>M from the blanks that.

1358
01:25:58.600 --> 01:26:02.000
<v Speaker 6>He had in the slang fight. I look back, I

1359
01:26:02.119 --> 01:26:06.239
<v Speaker 6>made what I'm down. I'll do what you want to say.

1360
01:26:07.000 --> 01:26:26.520
<v Speaker 6>Just at urn down on you. Let's go back, go

1361
01:26:26.840 --> 01:27:29.159
<v Speaker 6>back where I'll go, go giants, I have to go.

1362
01:27:29.680 --> 01:27:32.600
<v Speaker 6>That's what you say when you say it's not what

1363
01:28:19.079 --> 01:28:19.920
<v Speaker 6>I'm afraid that.

1364
01:28:22.840 --> 01:28:26.800
<v Speaker 2>The child I don't yahn.

1365
01:28:27.960 --> 01:28:29.560
<v Speaker 13>Shot up like my bad.

1366
01:28:31.600 --> 01:28:33.680
<v Speaker 6>I got away from me the first. So I not

1367
01:28:34.079 --> 01:28:38.399
<v Speaker 6>about to tell us my couch a bucket down, No boy, bucky,

1368
01:28:48.359 --> 01:28:59.720
<v Speaker 6>nois go a.

1369
01:29:44.840 --> 01:29:47.399
<v Speaker 16>Spropulation to conversation?

1370
01:29:49.920 --> 01:29:53.000
<v Speaker 2>What the effect broken.

1371
01:29:53.520 --> 01:30:00.920
<v Speaker 16>Stolationalsationproa fotop your lies?

1372
01:30:01.760 --> 01:30:11.439
<v Speaker 7>Shall fact revelation, fasation, a devastation.

1373
01:30:12.840 --> 01:30:15.199
<v Speaker 16>Revelation through conversation?

1374
01:30:16.359 --> 01:30:21.840
<v Speaker 9>The effects are the effects.

1375
01:30:20.399 --> 01:30:28.479
<v Speaker 7>Conversation all raised a stranger, sell the fact, revelation, conversation

1376
01:30:29.479 --> 01:30:34.520
<v Speaker 7>through a titian through conversation, or.

1377
01:30:34.600 --> 01:30:38.560
<v Speaker 5>Shall effect revelation conation?

1378
01:30:39.079 --> 01:30:40.000
<v Speaker 6>John had forgotten?

1379
01:30:40.600 --> 01:30:44.359
<v Speaker 7>Show you a fact beyond this place of rapt and fears,

1380
01:30:45.239 --> 01:30:46.640
<v Speaker 7>horror of a shade.

1381
01:30:47.119 --> 01:30:48.439
<v Speaker 6>The mess of years.

1382
01:30:49.119 --> 01:30:52.239
<v Speaker 5>Find that shall find me unafraid. And that is not

1383
01:30:52.760 --> 01:30:54.079
<v Speaker 5>a free decade.

1384
01:30:54.239 --> 01:30:56.079
<v Speaker 16>Charge with hos scroll.

1385
01:30:56.600 --> 01:30:58.720
<v Speaker 7>I am the master of my fate.

1386
01:30:59.119 --> 01:31:02.880
<v Speaker 5>I am the it's enough my soul shoe.

1387
01:31:03.319 --> 01:31:06.319
<v Speaker 7>On the effect relations through conversation.

1388
01:31:07.800 --> 01:31:12.760
<v Speaker 5>Brother can of Horse continued cashing in and teachers about religion,

1389
01:31:13.439 --> 01:31:16.399
<v Speaker 5>keeping scoring at home. Who are people you'd like to

1390
01:31:16.439 --> 01:31:17.960
<v Speaker 5>see even by wolves.

1391
01:31:18.359 --> 01:31:21.560
<v Speaker 13>Dis dropped him, dying soon the tangles my taco ticks

1392
01:31:21.560 --> 01:31:22.720
<v Speaker 13>and his continued.

1393
01:31:22.319 --> 01:31:25.479
<v Speaker 5>Ghost storming tour and winning a streak, says God sparred

1394
01:31:25.560 --> 01:31:28.079
<v Speaker 5>him and decided a firefighter dies. In the.

1395
01:31:29.880 --> 01:31:36.159
<v Speaker 7>Revelation conversation Shelly effect, you are the effect.

1396
01:31:36.840 --> 01:31:42.560
<v Speaker 5>You are the effects relation through conversation, but all praise

1397
01:31:42.880 --> 01:31:48.640
<v Speaker 5>nor straight no revelation through conversation.

1398
01:31:51.359 --> 01:31:56.880
<v Speaker 7>Through conversation, all raised astral effect.

1399
01:31:57.680 --> 01:32:00.079
<v Speaker 5>Revelation through conversation.

1400
01:32:01.479 --> 01:32:10.239
<v Speaker 7>Through conversations tell effect, Revelation through conversation.

1401
01:32:11.560 --> 01:32:18.159
<v Speaker 14>As the dead from poles, whatever done for my indalkable soul.

1402
01:32:19.159 --> 01:32:22.840
<v Speaker 5>In the constant circumstance, I have not wasted. No I

1403
01:32:23.000 --> 01:32:28.439
<v Speaker 5>allow needs a chance. My head bloody about. You are

1404
01:32:28.600 --> 01:32:31.199
<v Speaker 5>the effect, the actually effect.

1405
01:32:31.760 --> 01:32:34.760
<v Speaker 2>Revelation through conversation.

1406
01:32:35.600 --> 01:32:37.960
<v Speaker 5>Revelation, conversation.

1407
01:32:39.399 --> 01:32:39.800
<v Speaker 7>Effect.

1408
01:32:40.640 --> 01:32:41.840
<v Speaker 6>You are the effect.

1409
01:32:42.560 --> 01:32:49.199
<v Speaker 5>You are the effect. Revelation through conversation balls No. Three

1410
01:32:49.800 --> 01:32:54.359
<v Speaker 5>of revelation through conversation.

1411
01:32:57.039 --> 01:33:00.680
<v Speaker 16>Through conversations, rasonable

1412
01:33:00.840 --> 01:33:05.920
<v Speaker 7>Selgi effects revelation and took on the SAT revel