Speaker 1: You're listening to Sorry for Asking, Sorry for Asking. I'm
Speaker 1: Cold Connor and I'm Adam Ramsey. This is where we
Speaker 1: talk shop, ask questions.
Speaker 2: Tell stories, and laugh some laughs about being creators as.
Speaker 1: Well as consumers of adult content. We love watching too,
Speaker 1: we certainly do.
Speaker 2: We also discuss the impact adult films have had on us,
Speaker 2: on our guests.
Speaker 1: And on the LGBTQ community. So strap on and strap in.
Speaker 2: And here we go. Hello, Hello, welcome back to Sorry
Speaker 2: for Asking.
Speaker 1: I'm Cold Connor.
Speaker 3: I'm Adam Ramsey, Hi Adam, Hi Cole. It's just been
Speaker 3: so long, I know, my goodness. Yeah, welcome back everybody.
Speaker 3: This is our third episode of season four. Sorry for Asking.
Speaker 3: We had such a good time with the guests last time,
Speaker 3: we decided to throw someone else in the mix who
Speaker 3: we like very much, the very sexy and as I
Speaker 3: call him, a multi hyphen it mister Logan's team is day.
Speaker 1: Bring that mic a little closer to that pretty face.
Speaker 1: How you doing, Logan?
Speaker 4: I'm good.
Speaker 1: Wet outside, It is wet outside. Yeah, this random little rainy,
Speaker 1: rainy spring day or almost spring.
Speaker 4: I guess supposed to have rain and spring though, and
Speaker 4: then we just didn't get it.
Speaker 1: Yes, I think that was that was very that's an
Speaker 1: accurate description. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Instead we had like a second fire season.
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, yeah, a winter fire season. How fun that was.
Speaker 1: You survived. We survived, and you were You have been
Speaker 1: spending a lot of time in Big Bear lately, is
Speaker 1: that correct?
Speaker 4: Not like during the winter, because like my place rents out,
Speaker 4: okay during the winter.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's a property owner now, really graduated.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know about that in a bit.
Speaker 1: Anytime. When did you get your place up there?
Speaker 4: I bought it two years ago. Yeah, it's coming up
Speaker 4: in two years.
Speaker 1: And you spend moss, You spend like the most of
Speaker 1: the summer.
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, I prefer being out there. I think
Speaker 4: I'm kind of like I'm done with my city era.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was never I was never a city person.
Speaker 4: But that's just where you go if you're a homosexual.
Speaker 1: So right, yeah, we met. We met in twenty ten.
Speaker 1: I want to say, during your New York quirdo era,
Speaker 1: how long were you living in New York.
Speaker 4: I don't actually know, because if I go back and
Speaker 4: I try and create like a chronology of like dates
Speaker 4: and stuff like that, I always feel like I'm making
Speaker 4: mistakes and I didn't keep like if I were to
Speaker 4: go and do like Instagram Digital archaeology or not Instagram,
Speaker 4: but like Facebook digital archaeology, like I could figure it
Speaker 4: out and like your you know, comb and dates some
Speaker 4: photos and that's that's not far.
Speaker 1: Off from what I did to research before this interview.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, great Facebook archaeology. You find you've always like
Speaker 1: moved around a lot or I like.
Speaker 4: A bold move and I like trying things out and stuff,
Speaker 4: you know, and as a person who doesn't have kids
Speaker 4: and stuff, I'm kind of my only priority. So I
Speaker 4: go and I do what I think is going to
Speaker 4: be fun.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, nice, I want to I mean, I have
Speaker 1: a few photos to share, but I want to start
Speaker 1: with a very crude one. Everyone look away if this
Speaker 1: is too much. This is the one of me and
Speaker 1: Logan in our first scene together. Yeah, look at that.
Speaker 1: I might have to cut that out for YouTube, but
Speaker 1: we'll see if you know, we can take that down.
Speaker 1: And then I'm gonna say to the microphone, all right,
Speaker 1: take it down, now, get rid of that. Wow, that
Speaker 1: was a photo, a photo that I just shared of
Speaker 1: Logan and I, I think in twenty fourteen working with
Speaker 1: Raging Stallion, Steve Kruz was our director, and I was
Speaker 1: so excited to work with you because, you know, we'd
Speaker 1: had this, you know, sometimes friendship, even across the country.
Speaker 1: We would see each other in a place that we
Speaker 1: frequented it once a year, and I was just very
Speaker 1: fascinated by your life as somebody who's like a multi
Speaker 1: creative person. But I also remember feeling at that time
Speaker 1: that your time as Logan Stevens was coming to an end.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I really thought that.
Speaker 1: And then now you are, like, in my opinion, a
Speaker 1: gay adult industry juggernaut. Did you at all see this coming?
Speaker 4: Not really, I didn't see any of it coming. But
Speaker 4: you know, like when we all went to school, and
Speaker 4: or if you did or didn't go to school, we
Speaker 4: were kind of given this narrative that, you know, like
Speaker 4: education was going to be the most valuable thing, that
Speaker 4: it was going to lead to these jobs and stuff.
Speaker 4: And then you get out of school and I'd be like, Okay,
Speaker 4: I've got my brain, let's go. And then you they're like, okay,
Speaker 4: well we can offer you an internship or we can
Speaker 4: offer you this, and I was like, well, I thought
Speaker 4: my brain was supposed to be valuable and they're like,
Speaker 4: well maybe someday, yeah, you know. And then and then
Speaker 4: so you're like, well, what the fuck do I do?
Speaker 4: So then and then I discovered I had a body,
Speaker 4: and they're like, oh, well right this way, sir, Like oh,
Speaker 4: why didn't you say so? Right?
Speaker 1: When did your I want to get into like your
Speaker 1: original history too, but just to kind of start off
Speaker 1: this conversation, I'm curious when your journey as Logan Stevens started.
Speaker 4: It started when I moved to New York, which okay, yeah,
Speaker 4: and I had like these little sort of like kind
Speaker 4: of novelty jobs and international development as like a recent
Speaker 4: college graduate.
Speaker 1: Is that what you studied?
Speaker 4: No, I studied anthropology, but they kind of like related
Speaker 4: and stuff. And so it was like these little nonprofit
Speaker 4: organizations that I worked for, and I was like, I just,
Speaker 4: you know, lost a job in Kenya and I was
Speaker 4: really trying to get another job out there and nothing
Speaker 4: was happening. And this was like, you know, two thousand
Speaker 4: and I guess it was two thousand and nine, so
Speaker 4: it was the beginning of that next recession or whatever.
Speaker 4: And I was there in Kenya and being like I'm
Speaker 4: young and gay and I have access by birth to
Speaker 4: the United States and all of these places where I
Speaker 4: can go be like a young, happy gay. Why am
Speaker 4: I living in Africa? Why am I living in Kenya?
Speaker 4: And so I so I wanted to I wanted to
Speaker 4: have that experience. I wanted to go like so my
Speaker 4: oats or whatever. So I kind of like thought about
Speaker 4: what my options would be in the US, and I
Speaker 4: kind of landed on the idea of New York. It
Speaker 4: sounded the most dramatic and the most fun. And so
Speaker 4: I got there and I didn't know what to do.
Speaker 4: I tried to tried to get work.
Speaker 1: There wasn't any work in that field. You mean just anything, okay.
Speaker 4: Literally anything that wasn't waiting Because I have a tendency
Speaker 4: to get fired very quickly from things like that. So
Speaker 4: I waited tables briefly for several tries.
Speaker 1: And I can't imagine that would have gone well for you. No,
Speaker 1: You're like, fuck this.
Speaker 4: No, I have a low I have a low tolerance
Speaker 4: for discomfort, and I have no filter.
Speaker 1: Uh huh. So you started in two thousand and nine.
Speaker 4: Pretty much like right off the bat. I landed in
Speaker 4: New York, and I didn't know what to do. And
Speaker 4: then I was like somebody had offered me to stay
Speaker 4: in their place for free, like they had an extra room.
Speaker 4: And he happened to be like a photo editor or
Speaker 4: maybe a video editor or something for Lucas and some
Speaker 4: other sites or something, and he was like, well, you
Speaker 4: should probably consider doing this, and I thought, oh, that's terrifying.
Speaker 4: Maybe I should try.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you started in video work with studios before
Speaker 1: or after you kind of dabbled. If you don't mind
Speaker 1: me talking about private intimate work.
Speaker 4: I can't remember which came first. Okay, Honestly, I think
Speaker 4: they just happened at the same time.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you remember that boy when you
Speaker 2: were in l A and it was before I did anything.
Speaker 2: I was I was a personal trainer and I we
Speaker 2: were like a grinder hook up.
Speaker 1: I came over.
Speaker 2: And it was like just when the blue page was
Speaker 2: starting to gain some traction, okay, and it was it
Speaker 2: was definitely the very very Yeah, you hadn't done it
Speaker 2: yet because you brought you were like, we started talking
Speaker 2: about like some photos that I some of your photography
Speaker 2: that I saw around your apartment, and you.
Speaker 1: Were like, yeah, no, he's like I used to do porn.
Speaker 2: Maybe I should start one of those spicy pages and
Speaker 2: I was like, well, I mean like, you're definitely equipped
Speaker 2: for it.
Speaker 1: Whatever do you mean, Cole, I don't want to be crass.
Speaker 1: I mean, so do we have you to thank for
Speaker 1: the rebirth of Logan Stevens.
Speaker 4: It's actually full time. Poppy was the one really was
Speaker 4: was the one that tip the scales?
Speaker 1: And is that diego? Okay? Yeah? Yeah.
Speaker 4: He was my neighbor and we hooked up a couple times,
Speaker 4: and one time he was like, oh, can we do
Speaker 4: a video? And I was like, well, all my shit's
Speaker 4: already out there, so sure, why not? And then he
Speaker 4: was like you should really do this and I was like, no,
Speaker 4: I think I'm done with that.
Speaker 1: What year was that? Do you remember?
Speaker 4: This would have been twenty eighteen?
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, wow.
Speaker 4: Because I had just moved to West Hollywood from that
Speaker 4: sort of like silver lakish place that I had.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, yes, okay, so it was twenty fourteen. We
Speaker 1: filmed that scene with Raging Stallion, and I remember having
Speaker 1: this very thoughtful conversation with you where I kind of
Speaker 1: was like, you know, I had only been doing this
Speaker 1: for about a year, and I had never done sex work,
Speaker 1: and I think you know you you were kind of
Speaker 1: I was looking to you for a little bit of
Speaker 1: guidance because I was very very careful then and still
Speaker 1: kind of am now to make sure that sex never
Speaker 1: felt like work, right, super important. Yeah, you you were
Speaker 1: very much like an advocate for that way of thinking.
Speaker 1: When did you stop doing that stuff? And what did
Speaker 1: you do in the interim?
Speaker 4: Like, oh, you mean like when I when I had
Speaker 4: my porn hiatus?
Speaker 1: Yes, whatever, Yeah, Like how long did that last? And
Speaker 1: what did it look like?
Speaker 4: I guess it lasted maybe like four or five years,
Speaker 4: and it was there was there was overlap with this other,
Speaker 4: like you know, brief career that I had as a
Speaker 4: costume designer in Hollywood working for like TV shows and
Speaker 4: commercials and things.
Speaker 1: Uh huh.
Speaker 4: You know, that career was really picking up a lot
Speaker 4: of steam, and I was quite good at it. So
Speaker 4: I wanted to put a lot of like energy and
Speaker 4: time towards that because I thought that was like the time,
Speaker 4: I thought it was a more sustainable thing than doing
Speaker 4: any kind of like sex work and stuff. So so
Speaker 4: I put all my effort into that and then quickly
Speaker 4: realized I was going to burn out way faster on
Speaker 4: that than anything.
Speaker 1: Is that what happened? It felt a little bit like
Speaker 1: you were burning.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it's it's absolutely insane the sort of
Speaker 4: demands that get placed on you in the world of
Speaker 4: like television production and stuff. The demands are really high,
Speaker 4: you know, Like there were certain projects where I would
Speaker 4: I would get a job and I would have basically
Speaker 4: seventy two hours to create like a six foot mustache dress,
Speaker 4: and I would have to stress the materials. I would
Speaker 4: have to do all this stuff, and you know, I
Speaker 4: would spend a day sourcing the materials, and then I
Speaker 4: would pull together the team that was necessary to create
Speaker 4: the thing, and then I would have, you know, less
Speaker 4: than a day and a half to actually do all
Speaker 4: the construction in that sort of a thing. And I
Speaker 4: would work for thirty hours straight and then I would
Speaker 4: get two or three hours of sleep, and then I'd
Speaker 4: have to be at a fitting at a celebrities house
Speaker 4: wow for like a couple hours, and then I would
Speaker 4: get a few more hours sleep, and then I would
Speaker 4: have to be on set for fourteen hours.
Speaker 1: Who was that mustache dress for that?
Speaker 4: It was worn by Anna Faris for one of those
Speaker 4: like Hey, come visit California commercials where all the right.
Speaker 1: Yes, right.
Speaker 4: I keep referencing that one because that was probably one
Speaker 4: of the most dramatic jobs that I ever had, and
Speaker 4: it got me a lot of attention. Yeah, because it
Speaker 4: was quite a construction feat like that was.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was probably like thirty six.
Speaker 4: Cans of aquinet and like multiple layers of Like wow,
Speaker 4: if I had like a like a construction absolute triumph,
Speaker 4: it was that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how did they even find you? Like I I'm
Speaker 1: always so always word of mouth, okay.
Speaker 4: And like you know, TV kind of works. There's like
Speaker 4: production families that people always work with the same people
Speaker 4: and stuff like that because they're comfortable with each other
Speaker 4: and they have like an established working relationship and so
Speaker 4: you know, I would sort of get shared between different
Speaker 4: production families that had relationships with each other.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Passed around costume because this may have been
Speaker 1: more of a passion project of yours, but I was
Speaker 1: really really excited for the time being. I don't know
Speaker 1: if this is something you love doing, but can you
Speaker 1: throw up some of those slamin scram photos. This was
Speaker 1: like an era of yours, Like these were so much fun.
Speaker 1: Like for those of you listening Logan was designing for
Speaker 1: this clothing line that he had created with a friend
Speaker 1: of ours named James Serni who I guess, I mean
Speaker 1: people know now is another name. But anyway, but look
Speaker 1: at these Gep Ransom, sorry sorry, but like these are these?
Speaker 1: I feel like every drag race girl would like kill
Speaker 1: for work like this. What was it like creating this?
Speaker 1: And do you miss it at all?
Speaker 4: No? I don't miss it at all, not in the least.
Speaker 4: If I never sat down at a sewing machine again,
Speaker 4: I'm perfectly happy. Yeah, it was fun. I this was
Speaker 4: because when I first moved to New York, I met
Speaker 4: all of these like, yeah, that's right. I had all
Speaker 4: of these young like queers that were doing, you know,
Speaker 4: going to really cool parties and wearing really cool things.
Speaker 4: And I, you know, I came from the Midwest and
Speaker 4: I had never seen like anything besides like the T
Speaker 4: shirt and jeans, combo and stuff. So this was just
Speaker 4: like absolutely blowing my mind. And everybody was making their
Speaker 4: own clothes and stuff, and I've found that really inspiring.
Speaker 4: So I got myself. Actually, well there's a lot more
Speaker 4: to the story, but that's just too many chapters.
Speaker 1: I got myself.
Speaker 4: I got myself a sewing machine and started making things,
Speaker 4: and they were really terrible, but I was brave enough
Speaker 4: to wear them out regardless, and I just like slowly
Speaker 4: got better and better and better. And I think the
Speaker 4: thing that was really exciting for me about it was
Speaker 4: like learning a new skill. And then so once it
Speaker 4: became a job and a career and all that kind
Speaker 4: of stuff, and once once you know, I was getting jobs,
Speaker 4: and it no longer felt like I was discovering something
Speaker 4: in the process. It just became work and it was
Speaker 4: all about like how much time do I have to
Speaker 4: do this and how much am I getting paid? And
Speaker 4: like does this feel worth whatever sacrifice I have to
Speaker 4: make to do it? And it ultimately was not, And
Speaker 4: like my mental health was suffering. I was definitely developing
Speaker 4: like an unhealthy habit with like cocaine and alcohol and stuff.
Speaker 4: And so I kind of took a look around at
Speaker 4: my colleagues that were like further along in their career
Speaker 4: than I was, and the forecast was grim. Like it
Speaker 4: wasn't like people were getting that much better jobs than
Speaker 4: the ones that I were getting. They were just getting
Speaker 4: more of it. And I didn't want to sort of
Speaker 4: like sell my entire life to work.
Speaker 1: When you say the forecast was grim, do you mean
Speaker 1: in terms of having a future and was happy? Oh?
Speaker 4: Like, I want to look around and I want to
Speaker 4: see the people who were farther along in their career
Speaker 4: being like happy and having a life that I that
Speaker 4: I wanted, and I didn't want any of their lives.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So then when you decided to stop that
Speaker 1: is that when Logan Stevens kind of had his comeback.
Speaker 4: Almost No. At that point, I had a friend who
Speaker 4: had just gotten trained as a massage therapist, and I
Speaker 4: knew if I just added in like a hand job
Speaker 4: to that, I could make twice as much.
Speaker 1: So, huh.
Speaker 4: I got that friend to train me how to do massages,
Speaker 4: and then I hired a few other friends who knew
Speaker 4: how to do it to train me, you know, to
Speaker 4: like give me a massage and give me a lesson
Speaker 4: and stuff. And then so from this combination of like
Speaker 4: different people than I kind of put together my own
Speaker 4: routine based off of the things that I thought were
Speaker 4: the things that I liked the best. And then I
Speaker 4: just I started doing like massages for a number of years,
Speaker 4: and that was just kind of like a placeholder until
Speaker 4: I could figure out what I felt inspired to do.
Speaker 1: You do have very strong hands, I will say from experience.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and uh and then and then only fans came along,
Speaker 4: and I didn't expect that at all. Wait, I'm not
Speaker 4: supposed to say that you're saying blue blue.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know, Like, I guess we'll see. I
Speaker 1: don't know. That's I mean, we've said it before, but
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 4: Like the sites came along, yeah, and kind of changed everything.
Speaker 3: Sorry, YouTube, don't don't cut us out. We only just
Speaker 3: mentioned it. We're not promoting it.
Speaker 1: Was it a quick rise in like the response you
Speaker 1: got when the when.
Speaker 4: The pandemic hit, that's when that's when everything exploded, of course.
Speaker 4: And I feel very lucky to have been like in
Speaker 4: this sort of unique position, to have been one of
Speaker 4: the few people that was already doing it and primed
Speaker 4: for the explosions. So I just kind of rode the wave.
Speaker 1: Up, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I always feel like like because I started kind of
Speaker 2: as the pandemic was calming down and so like, and
Speaker 2: then I started doing studio work, and I feel like
Speaker 2: the people that had done studio work before saw a
Speaker 2: rise and stayed there where I think some people that
Speaker 2: started after the pandemic see a rise in a quick drop.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a little bit what mine was like.
Speaker 1: And I've just been doing that for so long, and like,
Speaker 1: you know, my relationship with adult work has always been
Speaker 1: kind of tenuous. But I started doing the Blue the
Speaker 1: Blue site, I want to say, in like twenty seventeen, okay,
Speaker 1: and it was it was fun. It was fun to
Speaker 1: be like, oh this extra cash. How nice it was.
Speaker 1: I mean anything, we could do anything. It was so cool.
Speaker 1: I had all kinds of stuff, didn't tag people. It
Speaker 1: was you know, outside inside. And then yeah, the whole
Speaker 1: pandemic thing. You know, we call a lot of people
Speaker 1: pandemic porn stars because like that's like a lot of
Speaker 1: times where their careers started.
Speaker 4: Well, this is this is this moment where the world
Speaker 4: really taught us what they actually well, I mean, I
Speaker 4: think the world is teaching me my whole life what
Speaker 4: they actually value. There's what the world there's what the
Speaker 4: world says that they value, is what the world actually values.
Speaker 4: And I've learned to just follow what the world actually
Speaker 4: values because it's a far I'm not going to say
Speaker 4: it's an easier route because we can talk about all
Speaker 4: of the all of the ways that the world likes
Speaker 4: to make that path very difficult.
Speaker 1: But especially for us, Yeah, especially for US sure industry.
Speaker 4: Yeah, from you know, community stigma to censorship to like
Speaker 4: you name it. I call it a fugitive industry because
Speaker 4: you're always getting chased around the Internet and having to
Speaker 4: hide in corners to try and make this stuff work.
Speaker 4: Because there's an ever changing landscape of like little tiny
Speaker 4: legislations that don't trigger any public interests whatsoever, but have
Speaker 4: a huge impact on how our business works, on our
Speaker 4: ability to promote what we do, tiny tiny little laws
Speaker 4: that nobody would ever notice except for like a few
Speaker 4: niche people out there, you know, but protesting and sending
Speaker 4: letters to a congress person and who never get read.
Speaker 4: And right, Yeah, it's really kind of it's it's it's intense.
Speaker 1: And the odds are stacked against us. I mean for
Speaker 1: our listeners. You probably don't know. And we've mentioned in
Speaker 1: the past before, but like they change these laws on
Speaker 1: these sites as well, so like so like we are
Speaker 1: constantly learning more things that we can't do for a
Speaker 1: risk of losing our income stream.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they'll just they'll just kick you off the platform
Speaker 4: with no warning whatsoever, and they don't even they don't
Speaker 4: even tell you when they change the rules of the
Speaker 4: site too. So if you aren't, if you aren't going
Speaker 4: and reading the terms and conditions on like almost a
Speaker 4: bi weekly basis.
Speaker 1: Yes, Like yeah, which how many of us do that?
Speaker 4: Yeah, you could all of a sudden learn that you've
Speaker 4: been like violating the rules and it doesn't matter if
Speaker 4: you posted the content, they'll take you down. And then,
Speaker 4: like the entire site is just run by like algorithms
Speaker 4: and bots and things like that. There's actually no customer
Speaker 4: service whatsoever. So if you email them and you're like
Speaker 4: I have a problem, they're like, thank you for contacting
Speaker 4: cost service, Like, we are very concerned about your issue,
Speaker 4: Please refer to the rules.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, It's always like her name is Rachel Rachel.
Speaker 1: Rachel is an acronym for some actually that delivers fucking Rachel.
Speaker 4: I saw Rachel cause an accident the other day, which
Speaker 4: is really funny because it was actually a tesla that
Speaker 4: then slammed into Damn.
Speaker 1: We're going to continue this and but first we're going
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Speaker 1: we're back. And we're back. We're here with Logan Stevens
Speaker 1: and mister Stevens I want to talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about like where you're from. Where are you from? Tell
Speaker 1: us a little bit about your background.
Speaker 4: Just I grew up in like a little tiny like
Speaker 4: Norman Rockwell country town in.
Speaker 1: Wisconsin, Wisconsin, Norman Rockwell. I feel like that is a
Speaker 1: reference we don't use as much anymore. Is that like
Speaker 1: super Americana.
Speaker 4: Super Americana, you would always have those. It's like, you know,
Speaker 4: little happy white children and small towns with like a
Speaker 4: barber who knows everybody's name, like a ice cream parlor
Speaker 4: and stuff. And we had all of that, Like our
Speaker 4: barber had one of those like candy cane.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, of course.
Speaker 4: There was a gazebo in the town center. There was
Speaker 4: like a farmer's market with the farmers from our town.
Speaker 4: And there was an ice cream parlor. Yeah, like all that.
Speaker 1: Stuff traveling down mainstream main Street.
Speaker 4: Sorry that it was all about football. It was all
Speaker 4: about and then like you know, deer hunting season was
Speaker 4: like a really big thing. Like kids, like half of
Speaker 4: my class would disappear for at least a week at
Speaker 4: a time during deer hunting season. Yeah I did with
Speaker 4: a bow.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's really cool.
Speaker 4: Well, there's there's there's bow hunting season and like gun
Speaker 4: hunting season, so it was like a difference in time
Speaker 4: and stuff too. And wow, I felt much more comfortable
Speaker 4: with a bow than I did with with a gun.
Speaker 1: Bows are way more badass. I'm not condoning hunting at all, but.
Speaker 4: There's there's no reason. There's no reason not to. I
Speaker 4: mean there's yeah, there's no reason to be a hunting
Speaker 4: it's like way better than than anything else. And like
Speaker 4: you're you're being selective about first of all, the animal
Speaker 4: has you know, lived in nature as opposed to some
Speaker 4: factory farm or cowschwitz as you're going up the five fair,
Speaker 4: you know, so it's a it's a far more responsible
Speaker 4: source of food first of all. And then also you're
Speaker 4: like you're eating the whole animal, like we did.
Speaker 1: So you hunted for food for like your wreck room
Speaker 1: wall or some crap.
Speaker 4: No, okay, I was never aware of any you know,
Speaker 4: like growing up, everyone was hunting for food. Not everyone
Speaker 4: had giant freezers in their garage that were specifically for
Speaker 4: all of the meat that they hunted. And you know,
Speaker 4: some of these families that would like not have to
Speaker 4: buy beef from the grocery store for like six months
Speaker 4: because the deer that they killed during the hunting season
Speaker 4: would last them, you know, half the year.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, So it was more like a piece of
Speaker 4: the culture more than it was like a.
Speaker 1: Like a recreation thing. Oh, I see it, Okay, it was.
Speaker 4: It was recreational. I'm sure it's saved families lots of money,
Speaker 4: and I'm sure it was also. Yeah, it was just
Speaker 4: woven into like the culture of where I grew up.
Speaker 1: Can I ask if your experience as a child and
Speaker 1: teenager in a town like that was that Do you
Speaker 1: recall that like from a fond perspective?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I had I didn't really have any friends.
Speaker 4: I mean, I guess if you asked me now, I
Speaker 4: probably would say that I like missed out and having friends.
Speaker 4: But I had like a really rich childhood that was
Speaker 4: kind of spent by myself in the woods, like kind
Speaker 4: of communing with nature. And I was very like obsessed
Speaker 4: with all things nature, and I didn't really care about
Speaker 4: other people, so as long as I had a process too.
Speaker 1: I'm kidding, I'm kidding.
Speaker 2: I think that comes across in your content, the nature part,
Speaker 2: not the next caring about people. I like, because you
Speaker 2: definitely have this natural aesthetic for nature and outdoors these stuff.
Speaker 1: Was that something you thought about? Is it intentional?
Speaker 4: It's intentional. But the way I like to work is
Speaker 4: I don't like to feel like I'm working. I like
Speaker 4: to trick myself into so all of the things that
Speaker 4: I like, I try to fold it into my works
Speaker 4: so that none of it feels like I'm actually working.
Speaker 4: Rather the administrative stuff that's really that's fucking working for sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, I mean editing, posting.
Speaker 4: Editing, posting, caption writing, all of those things, and I just, yeah,
Speaker 4: filling out job forms if like, if there is a hell,
Speaker 4: it's me waiting in line to fill out like a
Speaker 4: like a form like an on.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Was getting out of that town something that you
Speaker 1: were like excited to do?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, of course.
Speaker 4: I mean where was Like I grew up in my bedroom.
Speaker 4: People are like, oh, didn't you watch cartoons and stuff?
Speaker 4: I watched nature programs as a kid, and like there
Speaker 4: were probably twenty years worth of National geographic magazines on
Speaker 4: one bookshelf in my room, and like my fantasies as
Speaker 4: a kid, we're all about being like a National geographic photographer,
Speaker 4: like traveling around the world, and having this very like
Speaker 4: Indiana Jones kind of life. There was like a whole
Speaker 4: world waiting for me out there, and I couldn't wait
Speaker 4: to get at it. It wasn't this like you know,
Speaker 4: there's a lot of narratives and movies and stuff like
Speaker 4: small town kids, like we're going to escape this someday.
Speaker 4: I just knew. I was just waiting for like my
Speaker 4: moment to like where the door open and I could
Speaker 4: walk out.
Speaker 1: And when was that moment? And where did you get.
Speaker 4: When I graduated from high school and then went off.
Speaker 1: To college, which was where.
Speaker 4: It's just a small liberal arts school, nice liberal arts school.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like in Wisconsin. No, oh yeah, okay, oh right.
Speaker 4: I don't mention specifics. I don't share. I don't like
Speaker 4: people like dropping names of schools and things.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, that's fine, such a yeah, that's that's guess,
Speaker 1: totally fine. State. I just I think it just like, no,
Speaker 1: that's fine, that's fine. That sound sounds like that that
Speaker 1: detail does not matter, which is totally fine.
Speaker 4: It doesn't. It doesn't matter. People like to like it's
Speaker 4: like a dick measuring content.
Speaker 1: No, that's not why I'm asking. The reason I'm asking
Speaker 1: is because I want to know, and you don't have
Speaker 1: to tell us the location or what school it was.
Speaker 1: It was more about the experience you gained as you
Speaker 1: became an adult, like especially because I want to get
Speaker 1: into also.
Speaker 4: Well, I mean what I could tell you is that,
Speaker 4: like the school was like very very heavily focused on
Speaker 4: having a really diverse education, and it was really focused
Speaker 4: on on like international stuff. So, like I think it
Speaker 4: was like eighty percent of the student body studied abroad
Speaker 4: at least once during their time, Okay, And it was
Speaker 4: one of these schools where it had the highest number
Speaker 4: of graduates going on to do PhDs and stuff like that.
Speaker 4: So it was like a very very earthy, academic, engaging,
Speaker 4: multidisciplinary kind of an atmosphere. And so as part of that,
Speaker 4: I studied abroad twice while I was in college.
Speaker 1: Were those kind of formative times for you?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, No, I was.
Speaker 4: It was the beginning of my Indiana Jones fantasy. You know.
Speaker 4: I worked on an archaeology excavation in northern Chile, and
Speaker 4: then I studied abroad in India, and then as a
Speaker 4: result of that, directly after I graduated, I got a
Speaker 4: fellowship with the US Department of state. Okay, that then
Speaker 4: pay me to go back to India to spend you know,
Speaker 4: the remainder of a year learning Hindi.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 4: And then yeah, so that precipitated all of this, Like
Speaker 4: it kicked off that fantasy that I had.
Speaker 1: Okay, well I got to live it for a little while,
Speaker 1: just to bring it back to kind of like the
Speaker 1: work we do and like the topic of this podcast,
Speaker 1: I'm curious during this time, this is kind of a
Speaker 1: two part question. We like to talk a lot about
Speaker 1: just our history as young boys who consumed porn and
Speaker 1: became sexual adults ourselves that led to our decision to
Speaker 1: get into porn, Like were you sexually active when you
Speaker 1: were in your small town or Okay, no, did you
Speaker 1: know you were gay?
Speaker 4: Not really, there wasn't. I mean I was experiencing same
Speaker 4: sex attraction for sure, but I didn't really have like
Speaker 4: a frame for understanding it. And I feel like at
Speaker 4: the time, the only representations there was like one kid
Speaker 4: in my school who was like eccentric and flamboyant, and
Speaker 4: it was just sort of like known that he was gay.
Speaker 4: And then there were like the TV shows at the time,
Speaker 4: and all of those representations were like a very specific thing,
Speaker 4: and I got this impression from those those things that
Speaker 4: I was exposed to that like, being gay was almost
Speaker 4: another gender, and it was it was like a presentation
Speaker 4: that I didn't identify with. It didn't feel like me.
Speaker 4: So I was like, well, I'm not that, So so
Speaker 4: I didn't I didn't understand that what I was experiencing
Speaker 4: was homosexuality.
Speaker 2: Did you ever feel like there was a time where,
Speaker 2: like a first time where you felt represented And.
Speaker 4: Yeah, when I when I got to when I got
Speaker 4: to college, and there was this one guy that I
Speaker 4: was hanging out with and we would smoke weed together
Speaker 4: and stuff like that, and then it was like months
Speaker 4: into us hanging out, he came out to me, and
Speaker 4: I was like shocked.
Speaker 1: I was like, well, I make gay people like that, oh,
Speaker 1: because he presented kind of masculine like or standard.
Speaker 4: And let's let's not get it twisted. I'm not I'm
Speaker 4: not like stuck on adhering to one presentation or another.
Speaker 4: But there wasn't anything at the time that felt like
Speaker 4: me that I, you know, could identify with, and so
Speaker 4: I felt sort of lost, and there wasn't wasn't a
Speaker 4: point to hold onto for me to say like, oh,
Speaker 4: like my identity makes sense, or like where do I
Speaker 4: form my identity because I didn't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't know what was going on. What was
Speaker 1: your first like exposure to pornography?
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I would find that on the little dial
Speaker 4: up computer on the desktop, and I was like, you know,
Speaker 4: at home, Oh yeah, I don't know, yeah, And I
Speaker 4: would find the sites like there was one called like
Speaker 4: Adam and Steve dot com or something like that, and
Speaker 4: then also like old herb Ritz photos and stuff that
Speaker 4: would be on some like nude website that would feature
Speaker 4: I don't know, so there would be like herb Ritz
Speaker 4: photos that I would print out on the on the
Speaker 4: printer and then I would hide them behind my bed.
Speaker 1: I did that very same thing. Yea, yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: think we all did. I think we're all kind of
Speaker 1: in the same age. Oh yeah, for sure, Bracket, So
Speaker 1: our exposure was very similar. It sounds like you knew
Speaker 1: at the time, even at that age whenever that was
Speaker 1: when you were home, that it was gay stuff you
Speaker 1: were into, not necessarily stuff.
Speaker 4: Well, but you know, I had girlfriends in high school,
Speaker 4: and I did have sex in high school with females.
Speaker 4: But I feel like when you're at that age, anything
Speaker 4: turns you on. So because you haven't experienced like all
Speaker 4: of the options, this is what your body responds to,
Speaker 4: responds to touch and attention and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: But it's interesting though that even what you're saying, like
Speaker 1: you probably didn't do the math at the time that like,
Speaker 1: while you were engaging physically with girls, what you were
Speaker 1: sought out on the computer was very much man on
Speaker 1: man ax. Yeah, no, I.
Speaker 4: Think I was choosing not to examine it, of course. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I was very I was very I was sticking my
Speaker 4: head in the sand totally and consuming what I needed
Speaker 4: to just kind of hold things, hold things in place,
Speaker 4: which I think probably describes like all of Utah and
Speaker 4: aerors and you.
Speaker 1: Know, yeah, I have a couple fun photos of like
Speaker 1: you kind of like playing with looks back in the day, like, well,
Speaker 1: I feel like this is really fun. This is logan
Speaker 1: and in some kind of breastplate situation, Well.
Speaker 4: We made fault line would hire would hire me to
Speaker 4: go go dance me in my ex at the time,
Speaker 4: and we just love to like fuck around with the
Speaker 4: idea of go go dancing, And boy the patrons hated
Speaker 4: these outfits. We oh they absolutely hated them. But I
Speaker 4: made these. I made these. I made these, uh sort
Speaker 4: of like nude mesh spandex leotards that had like a
Speaker 4: like a separate sort of like breastplate that you could
Speaker 4: then put a water balloon on the inside.
Speaker 1: Is that that is the water.
Speaker 4: They're full of water too, and we just us like
Speaker 4: regular regular balloons too. And then we would use like
Speaker 4: safety pins to like poke holes in them because like
Speaker 4: somehow for the reason why they're like encased in the
Speaker 4: nude mesh or whatever, they don't burst. They just like
Speaker 4: like a hole burst. And so then we were like showering.
Speaker 4: But they had a lot of move they would bounce it.
Speaker 1: They looked very bouncy.
Speaker 4: They were really bouncy.
Speaker 1: Did you make this lobster?
Speaker 4: Make bits of it? But I can't really take full
Speaker 4: credit for it. It's not my design. But to construct
Speaker 4: a great deal of.
Speaker 1: It, I mean that's great.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Those were like when I worked with Harwood Lee
Speaker 4: and he was making all those things for Mario's parties. Okay,
Speaker 4: it was like a full frontal disco.
Speaker 1: Ah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, for those
Speaker 1: of you who don't know, Mario Diaz used to throw
Speaker 1: a party called full Frontal Disco, where the go go
Speaker 1: boys were not necessarily like doing go go moves. They
Speaker 1: were more like art installations. Yeah, they would pose and
Speaker 1: they would be like outfits like this where in this
Speaker 1: case it's a lobster with the boat top. The point
Speaker 1: I was making and I was really hoping we could
Speaker 1: find that other photo just because that was the you
Speaker 1: that I met where I feel like you you knew
Speaker 1: kind of how to like blend this like masculine but
Speaker 1: sort of gender. Fuck.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I played with gender for a while, probably probably
Speaker 4: because as gender had been a thing that constrained me
Speaker 4: and was preventing me from like discovering my identity. So
Speaker 4: I think I think we have to I think we
Speaker 4: have to play with gender. You know. I've often thought
Speaker 4: that there's sort of like two maybe maybe for our generation,
Speaker 4: there's like two camps of gay men, and it's those
Speaker 4: who masculinity was forced upon and those masculinity was denied too,
Speaker 4: and it and it's like very much a matter of like,
Speaker 4: you know, it's it's the it's the parents being like
Speaker 4: you're not man enough, you need to man up, or
Speaker 4: somebody being like you're never going to be a man.
Speaker 1: Ah, okay, okay, interesting.
Speaker 4: You know what I mean. So, so in both of
Speaker 4: those cases, masculinity gets weaponized against some kid and gets
Speaker 4: weaponized against their identity, and then they grow up to either.
Speaker 4: You know, I think that then that sort of like
Speaker 4: explains these the mask and the fem camps that used
Speaker 4: to be in such conflict like when we were young
Speaker 4: guys and stuff, and I think that they end up
Speaker 4: hating whatever the point of trauma that that the other represents.
Speaker 1: You know, do you find that you were in one
Speaker 1: of those categories?
Speaker 4: I mean, I've naturally felt masculine. I don't need it
Speaker 4: to be that way, and I enjoyed playing around with it,
Speaker 4: especially to you know, discover the boundaries of my own
Speaker 4: masculinity and what it looks like in the shape of
Speaker 4: it and the color of it and all that kind
Speaker 4: of stuff. But did I feel one way or another
Speaker 4: about other people who were presenting one way or another?
Speaker 1: Probably? Probably, I mean, we do.
Speaker 4: I don't really remember what my thoughts were about it.
Speaker 4: I think, you know, it's been quite a long time,
Speaker 4: but yeah, you know, it would have been impossible for
Speaker 4: me not to have had some sort of built in
Speaker 4: some sort of judgment some sort of judgments, a lot
Speaker 4: of effort and thought, and maybe not overtly this effort
Speaker 4: and thought was placed on it, but instructing all of
Speaker 4: these like preconceived notions that I had about the world,
Speaker 4: I mean, I guess it continues today. I'm constantly trying
Speaker 4: to basically everything wherever taught is wrong and so trying
Speaker 4: to figure out what your truth is in this world
Speaker 4: where everything is lies? Is this like ongoing task for
Speaker 4: your entire life? And the first things that I needed
Speaker 4: to deconstruct were like identity, gender, sexuality, all that kind
Speaker 4: of stuff to be able to define my own space
Speaker 4: where I lived.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that was absolutely part of it.
Speaker 4: And so the masculinity or the sort of like the
Speaker 4: Marlboromance style masculinity was in there with other things. And
Speaker 4: then the you know, like glitter and sparkles and things
Speaker 4: like that are just like a highlighter or something, you know,
Speaker 4: it's different.
Speaker 1: I love the blending of mask and femine. I think
Speaker 1: I always have. And I think that may also come
Speaker 1: from the fact that I think I was in the
Speaker 1: former category that you mentioned. I think I was very
Speaker 1: much a gay kid, and I had like some forces
Speaker 1: around me that will be like, you need to be
Speaker 1: a little more masculine in our community. Yeah, I found
Speaker 1: that like kind of playing up my gay side made
Speaker 1: me sort of edgy when I was a teenager.
Speaker 4: You grew up in California.
Speaker 1: That could be the reason why. I mean, I wasn't
Speaker 1: a small community. But I do also like my judgment
Speaker 1: came not in the form of me judging people who
Speaker 1: were feminine, but rather when people told me that. For example,
Speaker 1: like I would have never guessed you were gay at
Speaker 1: that time. I would have been like, oh, yeah, so
Speaker 1: proud of myself for that's been.
Speaker 4: Such a big boy. Yeah, it's still very much that,
Speaker 4: and the gay community still very much prizes heterosexual masculinity
Speaker 4: over homosexual masculinity. It's like you think, oh god, yeah,
Speaker 4: let's just put it this way, okay. In terms of
Speaker 4: like the fan sites and stuff like that, gay men
Speaker 4: will simp for the straight male creators for sure, nothing.
Speaker 1: I hate it.
Speaker 4: And and as a gay male creator for the gay
Speaker 4: male audience, if I were to try and pull the
Speaker 4: stuff that they pull, I would they'd be like, you're
Speaker 4: a bitch, You're a stuck up bitch.
Speaker 1: Get stuff.
Speaker 4: Just like the barely offering tiny little snippets of nudity
Speaker 4: and like the gay for pay guys or whatever, they
Speaker 4: barely do anything, and they make tons of money off
Speaker 4: of this. And that's because gay men are so desperate
Speaker 4: for to consume this straight male masculinity because they think
Speaker 4: that it's the that absolute pinnacle, which I find really
Speaker 4: ridiculous because to me, it's the most fragile that there is,
Speaker 4: Like the color pink can shatter, can shatter straight male.
Speaker 2: Also, rejection from someone like that doesn't mean anything to
Speaker 2: like on them. Sure, it's the rejection from someone that
Speaker 2: is gay. That's like, oh that's a straight guy. Of
Speaker 2: course he's not going to be end to me or
Speaker 2: of course he's not going to respond to me or whatever.
Speaker 1: He's straight. Yeah, But that's what makes the whole pick
Speaker 1: me culture of it all so really obnoxious. I mean
Speaker 1: for me, it's like, what is.
Speaker 4: What is pick me culture? I keep seeing this, but
Speaker 4: I like don't actually.
Speaker 1: Know what it's simply shit. It's like what when when
Speaker 1: like a like a gay consumer of a gay for
Speaker 1: pay guy would be like, oh my god, amazing, no
Speaker 1: matter like no matter what, like you know, and if
Speaker 1: and if they talk shit about someone hating on them,
Speaker 1: they'd be like, well, fuck them, because you're amazing. You're
Speaker 1: the best. Like to me, pick me culture is what
Speaker 1: got Trump the presidency. It's like you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: It's it's like the very Republican notion of like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm going to get a pat on the back if
Speaker 1: I like Trump. That's what pick me culture is. But anyway,
Speaker 1: we're getting a little off topic. The reason why I'm
Speaker 1: even bringing a lot of this up is because and
Speaker 1: you you kind of answered a lot of my questions,
Speaker 1: but I feel like your aesthetic has very much veered
Speaker 1: toward the the masculine, and we see it in a
Speaker 1: lot of your work.
Speaker 4: You don't.
Speaker 1: We don't see a lot of the sparkly Logan Stevens.
Speaker 1: We used to know, do we That was like an era?
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was an era.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was fun.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it just doesn't feel like me anymore. Also, it
Speaker 4: just so much effort to make this so much, so
Speaker 4: much work. And also like those are things that sort
Speaker 4: of like you can't really like weave that into your
Speaker 4: day to day, especially if you're not going out to
Speaker 4: clubs and things. And I just like you could not
Speaker 4: you could not pay me enough money to go into
Speaker 4: a club or a bar these days.
Speaker 1: Sure, oh god. Yeah. There was also an era that
Speaker 1: I kind of am curious about as well, when you
Speaker 1: played violin, Like that was one of the first things.
Speaker 1: It still exists, Like, Okay, first of all, this is you.
Speaker 4: It's me at my brother's wedding.
Speaker 1: That is a very. Yeah, that's you in a suit
Speaker 1: versus this other picture, which is you in a Look.
Speaker 1: What did you make this look?
Speaker 4: Yeah? Oh yeah, that's not a great one.
Speaker 1: I think you look great. I'm sure you have different experience.
Speaker 4: Also, like when I had just gotten back from Berlin
Speaker 4: and I got a haircut in Berlin.
Speaker 1: Oh, it looks like a very.
Speaker 4: I was like, do something asymmetrical?
Speaker 1: When did you become a violinist?
Speaker 4: That started like when I was like six or seven?
Speaker 1: When I was six, Yeah, did you? Was that ever
Speaker 1: something you did as a career or like something you
Speaker 1: were paid to do or no?
Speaker 4: Not really. I did initially sort of go to school
Speaker 4: with that in mind and very quickly realized it was
Speaker 4: not going to work out for me, especially when I
Speaker 4: had to start taking music theory classes and the professor
Speaker 4: would be like, Okay, we're going to have to slow
Speaker 4: down for mister Cooper's because he's just not getting it.
Speaker 4: Oh wow, yeah, boy, music theory did not resonate with
Speaker 4: me whatsoever.
Speaker 1: It's the same with me, like I'm also a musician,
Speaker 1: but I've mostly played with my ear. And we just
Speaker 1: had Emil Jamison on the program, who is a piano teacher,
Speaker 1: so every once in a while to brush up, he'll
Speaker 1: sit with me and he'll try to explain theory.
Speaker 4: He seems very theory.
Speaker 1: He's very theory based, and he and I kind of asked,
Speaker 1: I'm like, do you teach all your students this way?
Speaker 1: Because it's not going to work because every time we
Speaker 1: talk about it, I'm like following him for part of
Speaker 1: it and I could just see the words starts shumbling
Speaker 1: into each other. It's so much math, it's not for me.
Speaker 1: Before we wrap up, there is a topic that we
Speaker 1: haven't talked about on this podcast a lot, and I
Speaker 1: feel like mister Stevens would be a great person to
Speaker 1: discuss this with. Probably he's probably a good person to
Speaker 1: discuss anything.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 1: Like I said, multi multi hyphen it like he's got
Speaker 1: he's lived many lives, he's a thinker, he's a creative
Speaker 1: and he's killing it at this job. But you have
Speaker 1: dated a few people and our currently yeah. Yeah. We
Speaker 1: talk about this on the podcast a lot because we
Speaker 1: have learned that a lot of people experience dating within
Speaker 1: the industry as well as outside of the industry, and
Speaker 1: how both have their challenges but also their you know,
Speaker 1: their pros as well. What has it been like for
Speaker 1: you as someone who is success full in this industry,
Speaker 1: who is romantically entangled with someone outside of the industry
Speaker 1: versus someone who is also working in the industry.
Speaker 4: I don't know if that's the question.
Speaker 1: Okay, please help me. I don't know, ask a better.
Speaker 4: One if I were going to talk about, like what
Speaker 4: the whole dating thing is like for doing this sort
Speaker 4: of work, cause it used to be I felt like,
Speaker 4: I think I said this on this the Sloppy podcast
Speaker 4: that like people are always asking this question like, oh,
Speaker 4: but doesn't this make dating so hard?
Speaker 1: Oh? Yes?
Speaker 4: And I think I would you know, like you could
Speaker 4: have seen my answer on that one that I get
Speaker 4: sort of defensive and be like, well, dating is hard
Speaker 4: no matter what, So like, why would why would you
Speaker 4: make all of your decisions based upon like this prospect
Speaker 4: of like dating and stuff? How ridiculous. It does make
Speaker 4: dating extremely difficult. But I also sort of feel like
Speaker 4: there's a certain kind of like a filtering device and
Speaker 4: built into.
Speaker 1: This thing exactly.
Speaker 4: And if you're doing porn, it's because you wanted to,
Speaker 4: like you always wanted to, and whether you admit it
Speaker 4: or not, like you like it. It's not something that
Speaker 4: you just casually stumble into and then like oops, I
Speaker 4: can't get out. I mean, I suppose for some people maybe,
Speaker 4: but like no.
Speaker 2: I've certainly seen that some people now with the fans,
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think with doing like studio work,
Speaker 2: it's something.
Speaker 1: That you see I kind of stumble into.
Speaker 2: There's a few steps along the way that like you
Speaker 2: can you can pull yourself out.
Speaker 4: I feel like for a lot of people who struggle
Speaker 4: with it, I think there's an internal conflict that they
Speaker 4: haven't resolved. And I think that the piece of the
Speaker 4: conflict that isn't resolving for them is the internalized judgment
Speaker 4: and shame and like societal friction that they're allowing to
Speaker 4: occupy too much space in their head and that clouds
Speaker 4: their entire experience of doing this work. Whereas I think
Speaker 4: you can have like a much more joyful experience if
Speaker 4: you got all of that shit out of your head
Speaker 4: and just enjoyed it for like the piece of the
Speaker 4: of the life that gives you the freedom the and
Speaker 4: like sex is amazing if you and learn how to
Speaker 4: like enjoy the sex through this process and stuff. As
Speaker 4: I was saying, it's like really important too. But getting
Speaker 4: back to the topic, I had a significant amount of
Speaker 4: loneliness from doing this work and sort of the way
Speaker 4: in which it would put me at odds with like
Speaker 4: the general community and the dating pool and stuff like that.
Speaker 4: And you know, like when you do this work, like
Speaker 4: everybody wants to fuck you, but nobody really takes you
Speaker 4: seriously as like a person. Sure, even if they have
Speaker 4: some sort of a concept of you being like a
Speaker 4: well rounded person or an interesting person, this that or
Speaker 4: the other thing, they just don't take you seriously. It's
Speaker 4: not like, you know, I think in the back of
Speaker 4: their mind they're like, home, am I going to introduce
Speaker 4: this person to Mom? Like how am I going to
Speaker 4: explain this? Blah blah blah. And I was like just
Speaker 4: fucking like, don't worry about what Mom thinks, you know,
Speaker 4: Like are you going to live your whole life? To
Speaker 4: like meet the expectations.
Speaker 1: Of just come on, well, I mean it's all really
Speaker 1: what shame is? You know. I had a couple family
Speaker 1: members kind of be like, well, how do I explain
Speaker 1: this to people? And to me, I was always like, well, listen,
Speaker 1: if you treat it like something that you're ashamed of, ye,
Speaker 1: people will shame you for it.
Speaker 4: Yeah. You you you. You frame the narrative by how
Speaker 4: you having their exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: You set the parameters for like what you know and
Speaker 4: like it. I've also said like, if you're not ashamed
Speaker 4: of something, you take the fun out of the judgment.
Speaker 1: Yes, oh yeah, exactly. Yeah that they're not Yeah, they're
Speaker 1: not ashamed of yeah. I guess the context for why
Speaker 1: we like talking about this is because there has been
Speaker 1: multiple experiences that people have had, for example, dating someone
Speaker 1: who is more successful than you, dating someone who has
Speaker 1: never been in the industry and has judgment about it
Speaker 1: but really is curious about getting into it themselves, or
Speaker 1: in like a case we've talked about with you, dating
Speaker 1: someone who's completely out of the industry and says they're
Speaker 1: okay with it, but eventually kind of be like, well,
Speaker 1: you know, here, I am waiting to hang out with you,
Speaker 1: but you've spent the last week fucking all these people
Speaker 1: on camera or you know, so like you, if you
Speaker 1: don't mind my saying your current situation, you're with someone
Speaker 1: who was not in the industry, Yeah, not really but
Speaker 1: joined it, but joined in once spending time with you. Yes,
Speaker 1: So what's that been like for you guys?
Speaker 4: Well, this has been almost universally a positive experience for
Speaker 4: both of us.
Speaker 1: Nice. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Actually, like his entry into it has sort of like
Speaker 4: revitalized my interest in it. Like I would say, like
Speaker 4: if you asked me a year ago, I was really
Speaker 4: beginning to try and like plot my exit because I
Speaker 4: was beginning to feel like things were stagnating a little bit.
Speaker 4: I wasn't like feeling a lot of inspiration and stuff.
Speaker 4: But his excitement I get to sort of like live
Speaker 4: vicariously through his excitement, and that sort of like revitalizes
Speaker 4: my work and all that kind of stuff. And also
Speaker 4: just like his outside perspective on it, you know, because
Speaker 4: he came into this from being like a like a
Speaker 4: well known reality TV producer, Yeah, with some very very
Speaker 4: successful shows, and he chose to set fire to all
Speaker 4: of that in order to chase this and it was
Speaker 4: because he saw how my life was and the amount
Speaker 4: of freedom that I had and you know, like what
Speaker 4: I've been able to do with it financially and all
Speaker 4: that kind of stuff, and was like, what the hell
Speaker 4: am I like doing this shit for?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 4: You know? And the television industry is brutal, no matter
Speaker 4: how glamorous it can be. From like, you know, it's
Speaker 4: been great, and I think that this is mostly because
Speaker 4: there isn't any shame here. The the communication that we
Speaker 4: have is unlike anything I've ever experienced before. It's like
Speaker 4: the most clear and open and like, I don't think
Speaker 4: I've ever been this honest in my life. Like, I
Speaker 4: don't think it's even it's even like a situation where
Speaker 4: I'm examining things and experiences that I haven't really had
Speaker 4: to because I haven't had to like reflect to another
Speaker 4: person before. But yeah, it's sort of interesting because I
Speaker 4: find myself like describing in minute detail emotional experiences that
Speaker 4: I'm having I would have completely ignored before.
Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, that's so cool.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't I've never been He's just.
Speaker 1: Such a nice Yeah, really really fantastic. I could see
Speaker 1: him like treating this industry with almost like this puppy
Speaker 1: dog energy that he has, Like read's just very Yeah,
Speaker 1: he gets excited, and I mean it's still.
Speaker 4: It still has its like moments of you know, leaving
Speaker 4: you feeling inadequate. You have to wrestle with like comparison
Speaker 4: anxiety and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: Do you feel that sometimes?
Speaker 4: Oh God, yeah, are you kidding me?
Speaker 1: I would never guess that from what I know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know. Maybe I present a pretty stoic
Speaker 4: front or whatever, but there are like, no, I struggle
Speaker 4: with it too. Yeah, there's absolutely you know, if you
Speaker 4: can't get the attention of another creator that you'd really
Speaker 4: like to work with or something, and then you like.
Speaker 1: Something must be wrong with me or like totally.
Speaker 4: My body's changed in the last year. That's probably the
Speaker 4: explanation for all that I'm experiencing now, or like you know,
Speaker 4: the subscribers are down, it's probably something wrong with me, right, Like,
Speaker 4: it's so easy to blame yourself first and foremost for
Speaker 4: anything that's going on, and you know, you're you're sort
Speaker 4: of in this by yourself, and so there's not a
Speaker 4: lot of like external information to explain why something is
Speaker 4: happening this that or the other thing. You pretty much
Speaker 4: only have yourself to reflect on. So it can be
Speaker 4: if you don't have a really like strong solid sense
Speaker 4: of yourself that those voices get really loud.
Speaker 1: Oh for sure, yep, yeah.
Speaker 4: I think that that probably is one of the things
Speaker 4: that is maybe the most damaging about this entire thing,
Speaker 4: is the voice that you put on yourself. Yes, and
Speaker 4: I've seen that tear people apart.
Speaker 1: We talk about this at self judgment. I've seen it
Speaker 1: bring grown ass men.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I'm friends with like some of the most beautiful
Speaker 4: men on the planet, and they're the ones that are
Speaker 4: like constantly they're like, oh my god, my body's terrible,
Speaker 4: this that, or like some of them won't leave the
Speaker 4: house for weeks if they don't think that they look
Speaker 4: their best or it's insane, and like from anybody else's perspective,
Speaker 4: they'd be like, these are the most beautiful men on
Speaker 4: the planet.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, Well, you've done something really amazing
Speaker 1: with your logan Stevens come back. Is there anything and
Speaker 1: then your future that you're very excited about.
Speaker 4: I don't know, Well, I mean sure, I may or
Speaker 4: may not have I think I'm like ninety nine percent
Speaker 4: sure on this. I think I'm selling my house and
Speaker 4: I think we're leaving the country.
Speaker 1: Wow, I know, exciting thing. Yeah, but as you've discussed
Speaker 1: with me before, like ownership in this state is like
Speaker 1: not an easy thing to.
Speaker 4: Do, okay, But also, mortgages are such a fucking scam.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's such a scam.
Speaker 4: Like if I ride this entire mortgage out, I will
Speaker 4: pay for that house three times. Two of it goes
Speaker 4: to the bank and one goes to the principle. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yes, I've seen that before.
Speaker 4: And that's and that's insane. And so I'm like, you know,
Speaker 4: I did all the things where I built the financial base,
Speaker 4: and I got the perfect credit score, and I got
Speaker 4: the mortgage and all that kind of stuff, and then
Speaker 4: realize that all of it is this entire system designed
Speaker 4: to create this like cyclical like need situation. And if
Speaker 4: I pick everything apart and see like what I'm actually
Speaker 4: getting out of this versus what I'm spending on it,
Speaker 4: it's a insane and my my arm is all the
Speaker 4: way up the ass of capitalism now, and then that
Speaker 4: ties me to the fate of the state. And you know,
Speaker 4: like like fascism was not in my plans for the future.
Speaker 1: How do we do now right.
Speaker 4: Like uh, and and even and even if things do
Speaker 4: pan out in like like let's say we replaced Trump
Speaker 4: with something else. The alternative was what put us in
Speaker 4: this situation in the first place by being fucking useless,
Speaker 4: that they don't do anything that they sold us out to,
Speaker 4: like all these corporations and stuff. Anyhow, So like why
Speaker 4: am I here? Why am I here? And I can't
Speaker 4: do anything about it?
Speaker 1: Right? Well, you can sell your house and and get out.
Speaker 4: I think that that feels like my only option goes.
Speaker 4: I know, I'm learning how to get excited about this
Speaker 4: idea because I'm really I'm a little bit heartbroken at
Speaker 4: the moment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sorry.
Speaker 3: On that note, we got to wrap up. Thank you
Speaker 3: so much for joining us. I hope this was fun.
Speaker 1: Thank you. I love talking to you, and best of
Speaker 1: luck find Logan Stevens. You guys, you won't be disappointing it.
Speaker 4: Oh please do?
Speaker 1: I sure have wasn't anyway, That's it for me, Connor,
Speaker 1: I'm Adam Ramsey. This has been sorry for asking. Goodbye bye.
Speaker 1: This has been sorry for asking.
Speaker 2: Be sure to like, comment and subscribe, and until next time,
Speaker 2: stay sexy.