Speaker 1: People want to build and tokenized on Stellar because it's
Speaker 1: built for that. Tokenization and payments for the two things
Speaker 1: that we hyper focused on since day one, and asset
Speaker 1: tokenization for the real world. We want to be there
Speaker 1: bringing all of these assets for everyday financial services onto
Speaker 1: the network. Privacy is the opportunity because all the traditional
Speaker 1: financial infrastructure is not going to be built on blockchain
Speaker 1: unless we have the privacy solution, and Stellar wants to
Speaker 1: be able to make that happen.
Speaker 2: As far as the mechanisms, there's been talked about, zero
Speaker 2: knowledge proofs and other types of things. Is Stellar developing
Speaker 2: its own or using any type of models that are
Speaker 2: out there.
Speaker 1: We actually like to be able to build these things
Speaker 1: with partners so that we can think through what their
Speaker 1: needs are.
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Speaker 2: more about Uphold and all the great services they offer,
Speaker 2: visit the link in the description. Hey folks, welcome into
Speaker 2: the Thinking Crypto podcast. I'm your host Tony Edward and
Speaker 2: joining me today's Danelle Dixon, who is the CEO and
Speaker 2: executive director at the Stellar Development Foundation. And Deanelle. Great
Speaker 2: to see you, Great to have you back on, Tony.
Speaker 1: It's so awesome to see you. Thanks so much for
Speaker 1: having me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Denell, we've spoken a couple of times, I believe
Speaker 2: over the years I've followed you and of course the
Speaker 2: Stellar Development Foundation. You've often spoken in front of Congress
Speaker 2: and talked about crypto legislation and the things that we
Speaker 2: need to get going, and you know, there's been a
Speaker 2: lot of developments around Stellar as well. So I'm excited
Speaker 2: to go through the details there. Maybe we can kick
Speaker 2: it off with the Stellar Developments Foundation's privacy strategy and
Speaker 2: what's your goal there and plans and so forth.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, I mean, privacy is the opportunity, and it's
Speaker 1: the opportunity because Tradify and all the traditional financial infrastructure
Speaker 1: is not going to be built on blockchain unless we
Speaker 1: have the privacy solution, and Stellar wants to be able
Speaker 1: to make that happen. And so it's not going to
Speaker 1: be a one to one match. If you think about
Speaker 1: privacy in the off chain world, it might be a
Speaker 1: little different. But we need to be able to take
Speaker 1: the benefits of blockchain and what blockchain has to offer,
Speaker 1: and take the needs from the consumer and the business
Speaker 1: privacy that we're hearing from the traditional financial infrastructure and
Speaker 1: implement that. So this is an area that first of all,
Speaker 1: privacy has like been near and dear to my heart
Speaker 1: for many many many years, and things that I've advocated
Speaker 1: for also before Congress, but before I came to Stellar
Speaker 1: and before I got into the space regarding privacy and
Speaker 1: the importance of it. And so it's really fun to
Speaker 1: see these worlds merge and for us to be able
Speaker 1: to be hyper focused in right now.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean, Danelle, we don't want our healthcare information,
Speaker 2: our private data out there in the blockchain for everyone
Speaker 2: to see.
Speaker 1: I mean, this is an interesting point, is that when
Speaker 1: it's not that different from way back when when I
Speaker 1: was working at Mozilla and advocating for protecting user privacy,
Speaker 1: and we talked a lot about like an API to me,
Speaker 1: like let me let you into my world, don't just
Speaker 1: take what you want from my world. We actually have
Speaker 1: the opportunity to sort of make that work here in
Speaker 1: a really beautiful way. And so we're thinking about like
Speaker 1: confidential transactions that could be at the balance level, that
Speaker 1: could be at the send and receive level. It's ways
Speaker 1: to be able to repurpose that immutability of the blockchain
Speaker 1: history and the blockchain archive and protect that, but also
Speaker 1: make sure that the individual and the business's information is
Speaker 1: protected as well. So I think that this is a
Speaker 1: great space for us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely much needy. Like you said, institutions, This is
Speaker 2: going to be a big requirement because certain information obviously
Speaker 2: they don't want out there. As far as the mechanisms,
Speaker 2: you know, there's been talk about zero knowledge proofs and
Speaker 2: other types of things in Stellar developing its own or
Speaker 2: using any type of models that are out there.
Speaker 1: Well, you need the base level for ZkS to be
Speaker 1: in there. We really really like it when the ecosystem
Speaker 1: comes and has ideas. We actually like to be able
Speaker 1: to build these things with partners so that we can
Speaker 1: think through like what their needs are. Building in the
Speaker 1: dark doesn't really help. We need to be able to
Speaker 1: understand the real world impact of what a solution is
Speaker 1: and what users might want. So we have a few
Speaker 1: folks that we're working with when we think about what
Speaker 1: it takes for them to be able to rea their
Speaker 1: users and what their users are demanding, whether those be
Speaker 1: businesses or end users, and using those and to create
Speaker 1: the privacy solutions that way is a really important thing.
Speaker 1: But certainly zkproofs are and there. You have the primitives
Speaker 1: already somewhat on the network, and we're going to add
Speaker 1: more primitives to it. So that others can build on it.
Speaker 1: This is how you build an ecosystem and how you
Speaker 1: make sure the ecosystem is involved in what you're doing. Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 2: Now you mentioned, you know, institutions, and one of the
Speaker 2: things I wanted to discuss was the adoption of Stellar
Speaker 2: for tokenization where you have centrifuge, Ondo, PayPal, red Swan,
Speaker 2: you know, I was just looking at RWA do xyz
Speaker 2: sc Steller's number eight as far as total value tokenize
Speaker 2: on the chain. Tell us about what type of institutions
Speaker 2: are building here, what are some of the things you're
Speaker 2: tokenizing and more.
Speaker 1: Yeah, importantly, we're number two when it comes to treasuries,
Speaker 1: and we've been number two for a really long time
Speaker 1: behind Ethereum, and that's what we see a lot of
Speaker 1: opportunity space in and people want to build and tokenized
Speaker 1: on Stellar because it's built for that. We've thought about
Speaker 1: tokenizations since day one. Tokenization and payments for the two
Speaker 1: things that we hyper focused on, and asset tokenization for
Speaker 1: the real world. We want to be there where the
Speaker 1: real world bringing all of these assets for everyday financial
Speaker 1: services onto the network, and so we have the compliance
Speaker 1: layer that's built in. We have all of the things
Speaker 1: that traditional financial infrastructure has wanted and now sees, oh wait,
Speaker 1: it's here, and it's actually easy for us to do that,
Speaker 1: and it's really exciting to see that. So we want
Speaker 1: to we want to meet the real world demand with
Speaker 1: what's available on the network, and I think we're doing that.
Speaker 1: And so you see that there's a ton of growth
Speaker 1: there and there, and there will continue to be growth.
Speaker 1: There's lots of like the ones that you just mentioned.
Speaker 1: We just that they just launched actually at Stellar at
Speaker 1: our Meridian event in Rio this year, and now we're
Speaker 1: going to see a lot more of them come to
Speaker 1: the network too. So it's been it's been great to
Speaker 1: see frankly, what we've built, you know, eleven years ago,
Speaker 1: really be leveraged and come to fruition and really like
Speaker 1: meeting the demand of the ecosystem today.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. And you know, I'm really fascinated by
Speaker 2: red ste One and the fact that they're tokenizing real
Speaker 2: estate because we've seen a lot of folks like do treasuries.
Speaker 2: There's a big race now for stocks and equities, but
Speaker 2: real estate the world's largest asset class. I feel that's
Speaker 2: still you know, it's not tapped in fully yet and
Speaker 2: this is really cool that they're doing that, and I'm
Speaker 2: excited to see what how they do this commercial real
Speaker 2: estate really you know, I should say the non commercial
Speaker 2: residential I should say, and what that looks like and
Speaker 2: how that can change markets.
Speaker 1: Well, I am so excited about red Swan. I met
Speaker 1: them a couple of years ago. I actually met them
Speaker 1: in person, although we've been working with them MTM in
Speaker 1: person at Davos, and I was just so excited with
Speaker 1: what they had to offer because these are large scale
Speaker 1: Some of them are large scale buildings that you know,
Speaker 1: think like large apartment buildings or hotels from the commercial standpoint,
Speaker 1: and then also, as you say, residences so that people
Speaker 1: can own fractionalized interest in it. This has been something
Speaker 1: that actually was started years ago, Like not with red Swan,
Speaker 1: another player actually started it on Stellar. We've seen token
Speaker 1: I oil barrels on Stellar, like all of these really
Speaker 1: fun things, but I think those were a little bit
Speaker 1: early to the market, and now you see red Swan.
Speaker 1: I think it's hitting the market at exactly the right time.
Speaker 1: The thing about it is when we think about everyday
Speaker 1: financial services, it's the ability to put your money into
Speaker 1: create capital and to be involved in capitalism in a
Speaker 1: unique way. And when you think about being able to
Speaker 1: purchase a fractionalized ownership of real estate, it actually allows
Speaker 1: your money to grow and to grow through the growth
Speaker 1: of an asset out there that is in high demand
Speaker 1: by everyone. So it's really exciting to see that and
Speaker 1: not to have barriers to entry so that anyone could
Speaker 1: actually use this. This is what everyday financial services are
Speaker 1: and this is what we really like to focus on.
Speaker 2: So deanelle a bit about the toganization market. It seems
Speaker 2: the puck is heading where a lot of these traditional
Speaker 2: assets will be on the blockchain, fractionalize, you'll be able
Speaker 2: to put them to work and DeFi and we're going
Speaker 2: to have almost twenty four to seven markets maybe for
Speaker 2: some assets, not all, but also more of a global reach,
Speaker 2: more liquidity coming in from different parts of the world.
Speaker 2: Do you see it that way and what are some
Speaker 2: of your expectations maybe by twenty thirty for the tokenization market.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that The way we think about Stellar,
Speaker 1: certainly in twenty twenty five, twenty twenty six and beyond
Speaker 1: is scalability and usability, and a lot of it is
Speaker 1: focused around tokenizing these assets and making sure that these
Speaker 1: assets can be leveraged across all markets. So when you
Speaker 1: think about they're not all of them are quite ready
Speaker 1: for the DFIED platforms yet, but they want to be.
Speaker 1: Not all of them are quite ready to be used
Speaker 1: for payment mechanisms, but they want to be. And so
Speaker 1: we need to let a little bit of the policy
Speaker 1: and the regulatory environment catch up with what this technology
Speaker 1: can do. But I love that these players are thinking
Speaker 1: ahead and they're trying to figure out, like what are
Speaker 1: the things like if you think about paying with stable coins,
Speaker 1: that's amazing. But if you think about the fact that
Speaker 1: you can hold a US back treasury asset and then
Speaker 1: also make payments with that US back treasury asset, so
Speaker 1: that you're also the money is sitting there working for
Speaker 1: you and you get to leverage payments just like a
Speaker 1: traditional money market fund where you used to be able
Speaker 1: to direct checks from it, it's pretty great. And to
Speaker 1: make that sort of on a global scale, which is
Speaker 1: what we're seeing, is also really wonderful, so I think,
Speaker 1: and then to be able to put them into yield bearing,
Speaker 1: to put them into pools so that you can generate
Speaker 1: yield from it just create so much opportunity for the
Speaker 1: end user, whether that be a small to medium size
Speaker 1: institution or an end user an individual. So I think
Speaker 1: that we want to meet the market demand. The real
Speaker 1: world assets are going to be part of that and
Speaker 1: bringing those to the blockchain are really important. But I
Speaker 1: completely agree with you that this is the place that
Speaker 1: we're going to see a tremendous amount of growth because
Speaker 1: this is just another rail for them, and this rail
Speaker 1: should be leveraged and is going to be game changing
Speaker 1: for these traditional financial institutions because they get to do it,
Speaker 1: as you say, twenty four hours, and that is it's
Speaker 1: a bit of a real world settlement to them. It
Speaker 1: is a little bit, I mean real time settlement to
Speaker 1: them is a little different and a little sometimes challenging
Speaker 1: for their internal infrastructure, but they're all going to get
Speaker 1: there and then it's just going to be hugely beneficial
Speaker 1: for frankly the globe.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it opens up just a world of possibilities
Speaker 2: and you know a lot of benefits to people who
Speaker 2: didn't have access of financial services or banking services, and
Speaker 2: now they could be maybe in some country in Africa
Speaker 2: they just have a smartphone, but that's all they need
Speaker 2: in this wallet based setup world right, and to access
Speaker 2: some of these assets, and even if it's just a
Speaker 2: small amount, you know, that could be life changing for
Speaker 2: them and they can put some of their assets to
Speaker 2: work and it just opens up a lot of opportunities.
Speaker 1: Well, and I think the biggest point is we talk
Speaker 1: a lot about access, and yet people sometimes say, well,
Speaker 1: when they're treasuries, does that really make it so that
Speaker 1: it's accessible and does that change the access game? And
Speaker 1: the fact is that the tokenizing treasuries and also frankly
Speaker 1: all of these real world assets, it's beneficial on both
Speaker 1: sides of it. The institutions find that it's super helpful
Speaker 1: for them because they can actually put their workforce to
Speaker 1: different parts of their business because now they only have
Speaker 1: a ledger that they can focus on, so they don't
Speaker 1: have to like make their internal ledgers all balanced, because
Speaker 1: they can use a global public network that they can
Speaker 1: leverage for their life which is kind of game changing
Speaker 1: for them. But the access point is really important. I
Speaker 1: think sometimes people forget this because barriers to entry were
Speaker 1: always really high. If you think about you know, even
Speaker 1: Franklin Templeton all USUM because I know that their their
Speaker 1: asset Benji. What they've done there very well. They originally
Speaker 1: to get into their money market funds that were off
Speaker 1: chain money market funds. It costs twenty five hundred dollars.
Speaker 1: The entry point was twenty five hundred. Now it's twenty
Speaker 1: five in Benji. That's a huge difference. And so when
Speaker 1: you talk about the fact that it might just be
Speaker 1: a little bit or they could have fractionalized ownership of
Speaker 1: different components of it, that is like, it's a very
Speaker 1: big difference about getting into an asset. And I think
Speaker 1: that that number just comes down over time once this
Speaker 1: becomes commonplace that people are leveraging blockchain. So it's very
Speaker 1: exciting to see that, and you're right, I think it
Speaker 1: does really change the dynamics and allows more people to
Speaker 1: get involved in the traditional financial infrastructure. I mean, the
Speaker 1: number is something like seventy percent of the world, and
Speaker 1: the individuals and the world work outside of and work
Speaker 1: and don't actually leverage traditional financial infrastructure in their countries,
Speaker 1: and this can bring them into it in a very
Speaker 1: different way. It's either because they don't trust the governments
Speaker 1: that might be involved, or they can't get access to it.
Speaker 1: And now they can, and so this is just it
Speaker 1: creates this ability for everyone to be involved, and that's
Speaker 1: what's really exciting about it.
Speaker 2: Oh, for sure, you know with these institutions that are
Speaker 2: building on Stellar and you know, if we go back
Speaker 2: to now, obviously you've been here in this industry for
Speaker 2: a long time and we've gone through the painful parts
Speaker 2: of you know, the attack on crypto and much more.
Speaker 2: Are the institutions more so coming to you now or
Speaker 2: are you and is it easier to talk to them
Speaker 2: about crypto and building and tokenization in these things?
Speaker 1: For sure? I think the most important thing is is
Speaker 1: that you don't want to have like the square peg
Speaker 1: ground hole, like you don't want things to just not match.
Speaker 1: And so some institutions that we talk to, and a
Speaker 1: lot of them do come to us, but some institutions
Speaker 1: don't exactly know how they want to leverage it. They
Speaker 1: just know they want to understand blockchain and that we're
Speaker 1: there for that too, because we want to make it
Speaker 1: work on both sides. You don't want to just have
Speaker 1: someone build stable coin, for example, when the stable coin
Speaker 1: isn't necessarily the thing that they really wanted to be
Speaker 1: able to put into the world. Or tokenize some of
Speaker 1: their assets, but then they actually really wanted to be
Speaker 1: able to focus on payments and maybe they could have
Speaker 1: leverage other assets in there. So a lot of this
Speaker 1: is really great conversation now that frankly where people folks
Speaker 1: were more afraid to have before the Trump administration came in.
Speaker 1: In the US, it has really been kind of game
Speaker 1: changing in terms of the policies and the regulatory environment
Speaker 1: being more open to it, and it's opened the doors
Speaker 1: to these traditional financial players to say, Okay, we know
Speaker 1: this technology can change the game for us, so what
Speaker 1: can we do on Stellar to make it so that
Speaker 1: it's benefiting the business but also our intended recipients.
Speaker 2: You know, talking about you mentioned the Trump administration. This
Speaker 2: year has been a complete one adea. It's like, you know,
Speaker 2: the storm has passed and the sunshine on us, and
Speaker 2: it just feels like a great time to be in
Speaker 2: the industry, to be building. I see a lot of people,
Speaker 2: more optimistic, entrepreneurs, innovators, a lot of investments, a lot
Speaker 2: of new things that are happening in the industry. And
Speaker 2: I thought of your article that you recently published on
Speaker 2: the Stellar website about Web three and Web two and
Speaker 2: the dynamic there and the title if I pull it
Speaker 2: up here, let's build open highways, not for roads. Tell
Speaker 2: us about this piece and what you're seeing as far
Speaker 2: as the vision.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that you're right that this is like
Speaker 1: I think, the most amazing time to come into Crypto,
Speaker 1: although it was actually really fun to come into Crypto
Speaker 1: years ago too because it was just a different environment
Speaker 1: in a different building space. But there's really amazing competition
Speaker 1: out there. Lots of folks are trying to get into
Speaker 1: and figure out where the space fits for them. The
Speaker 1: piece that I wrote that you're referencing there is really
Speaker 1: talking about vertical integration, and the vertical integration and centralization
Speaker 1: is actually usually the easiest way, the easiest path forward
Speaker 1: for a lot of players, because you can control it,
Speaker 1: you can own it, you can fix it, you can
Speaker 1: do lots of things to it. The challenge of that
Speaker 1: is when you think about like the network layer, which
Speaker 1: is the layer one, and not being owned or controlled
Speaker 1: by anyone entity creates the wrong incentives. And we saw
Speaker 1: this when I think back to my days in Web
Speaker 1: two and really focusing on like getting the Internet to
Speaker 1: be adopted, and you had all these application layers building
Speaker 1: on top and it was it was hyper focused around content.
Speaker 1: What we saw. We tried to keep things open there.
Speaker 1: We always kept the infra layer open, that network layers open.
Speaker 1: It still is today, which is really pretty remarkable and
Speaker 1: demonstrates the power and then open network because it allows
Speaker 1: for global integration and for folks to do whatever they
Speaker 1: want on top of it. Where we saw the vertical
Speaker 1: the cannibalization, we saw that happen at the next layer,
Speaker 1: at the application layer, and so you saw like five
Speaker 1: companies ultimately own the content on the web. And the
Speaker 1: inability like when Google started, Google was able to crawl
Speaker 1: the web and like kind of get everywhere and that's
Speaker 1: how they started their indexing. You couldn't do that today
Speaker 1: because there were walls all over the place. So it's
Speaker 1: really hard to do that. Again, that's the application layer,
Speaker 1: and sometimes content gets trapped and you have walls around
Speaker 1: the content, and having walls around content is not awesome,
Speaker 1: but it's not walls around value and money. And when
Speaker 1: you think about your value and your money being trapped
Speaker 1: in a network that you can't get access to because
Speaker 1: there are walls up, that's the challenge. And when we
Speaker 1: think about vertical integration, and we think about sentualization, we
Speaker 1: see that that is potentially the ultimate, the ultimate crime
Speaker 1: that will happen, right crime in a very existential way,
Speaker 1: because what we have right now is the ability to
Speaker 1: move seamlessly throughout not just on Stellar, but also like
Speaker 1: Stellar with bridging to to other networks. You have the
Speaker 1: ability to go and go to the networks that most
Speaker 1: suit you based on the things that are beneficial to you.
Speaker 1: When they're open networks, there's no shareholder demand to say, well, wait,
Speaker 1: we need to like put up toll booths to create
Speaker 1: like more growth for the shareholders and to charge different
Speaker 1: layers of it. You also aren't trying to track you
Speaker 1: into one network, which is what happens potentially, you know,
Speaker 1: with the wrong incentives. And so we have to be
Speaker 1: very mindful of making sure that we have blockchain rails.
Speaker 1: Stay open, stay open, stay interoperable. You have to build
Speaker 1: standards around this. We have to be very focused around
Speaker 1: this network layer. So think about the Internet. The Internet
Speaker 1: is open, and it's the layer that everyone can build
Speaker 1: on top of. The Networks should be open and should
Speaker 1: be the layer that everyone can build on top of.
Speaker 1: So that's the goal and That's why I read that,
Speaker 1: because I just saw so much of this happen back
Speaker 1: in the early days of the web.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean obviously you were previously to Coo
Speaker 2: at Mozilla, so this is you have the pedigree here.
Speaker 2: So I love your piece because I think it's a
Speaker 2: good reminder and to make sure we know, like you said,
Speaker 2: repeat the mistakes of the past. But what do you
Speaker 2: think about kind of the dynamic that's forming where you
Speaker 2: have the public blockchains, but you have companies building like
Speaker 2: their private permissioned blockchains what they're building. Do you think
Speaker 2: that's okay and it's needed in that way?
Speaker 1: I mean, if you think about sometimes I don't think
Speaker 1: that people necessarily need to have these private networks. I
Speaker 1: think that that is a stage for them. Once they
Speaker 1: get more comfortable, they'll ultimately move to the public blockchain
Speaker 1: because it's just easier. One of the things that's really
Speaker 1: important about open networks as well. So if I just
Speaker 1: think about open source is that you have lots of
Speaker 1: people all around the world who are building to make
Speaker 1: sure that the code is right, to make sure that
Speaker 1: the code remains competitive, that the outcomes are right. You
Speaker 1: don't just have one opinionated body that's going to tell
Speaker 1: you what you should and shouldn't do. That's a really
Speaker 1: important part of openness, which lots of people forget. And
Speaker 1: so when you have a permission network, it's very similar
Speaker 1: to what happens today with traditional financial infrastructure. A lot
Speaker 1: of times this is closed code that they're using. And
Speaker 1: when you have closed code, it's upgraded from time to time,
Speaker 1: but it's upgraded by a very opinionated body. The thing
Speaker 1: could be true with the private network, and so you
Speaker 1: need to just be mindful that the best way is
Speaker 1: for that interoperability layer. I do think it's staging. I
Speaker 1: think what happens is that these they get they get
Speaker 1: comfortable with the blockchain technology using these private networks, and
Speaker 1: then eventually they'll move to the public network because it
Speaker 1: saves them money, make sure that they're on the best,
Speaker 1: highest performing software, that all they're getting all of the
Speaker 1: ability for the compliance that's built into all of the networks,
Speaker 1: and certainly in distellar. So I do think that we'll
Speaker 1: see more if we keep focused around the importance of
Speaker 1: openness and global uh and not permissioned. I think that
Speaker 1: we'll see a lot of players eventually move.
Speaker 2: To that hard question for you. You know, I'm curious
Speaker 2: what you think or how you think. Players like Google
Speaker 2: with their browser's chrome, and even the social networks like
Speaker 2: Facebook and much more are going to inte integrate blockchain.
Speaker 2: And in addition, you know, do you see with the
Speaker 2: clarity in the market, they all launch maybe tokens where
Speaker 2: you have kind of the token economy these big companies
Speaker 2: and brands have.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think it's funny. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of folks that are going to get into the stable
Speaker 1: coin and the game, the token game, I think, and
Speaker 1: I think that there's actually room for some of it
Speaker 1: to happen. And usually what happens in that is that
Speaker 1: that'll shake out the players that are most involved and
Speaker 1: actually have a reason to be able to have those things.
Speaker 1: I think if you think about blockchain, it could be
Speaker 1: the payment layer for all of those things. You know,
Speaker 1: when I was building a browser at Firefox, I mean
Speaker 1: at Mozilla. When we were building Firefox, one of the
Speaker 1: things I always wanted was a tip jar. I just
Speaker 1: wanted a tip jar in the upper right hand corner
Speaker 1: of the browser that you could easily tip and do
Speaker 1: these micro transactions. And we actually couldn't do that because
Speaker 1: the micro transactions were so costly at the time. Well,
Speaker 1: blockchain makes it really simple. So if you think about
Speaker 1: leveraging blockchain in all of these different assets that they
Speaker 1: hold as these large institutions, I think it could be
Speaker 1: like that payment layer that comes through. You can integrate
Speaker 1: Google Pay with it. You can make it so that
Speaker 1: you can actually pay globally without any kind of friction.
Speaker 1: You can lower the cost. Hopefully the end users benefit
Speaker 1: from it. Whether or not the tokens are going to
Speaker 1: be the things that it's a utility token. It makes
Speaker 1: it actually super seamless, right, It might make it really
Speaker 1: easy for them. Could be rewards tokens like you stay.
Speaker 1: It's fine for companies to want people to stay within
Speaker 1: their networks, but people should get benefits for staying within
Speaker 1: those networks. When I say networks, I mean like that
Speaker 1: the Google or you know, Apple, If you want to
Speaker 1: stay within that wall, you should get a benefit for it.
Speaker 1: So maybe they issue some kind of a reward token.
Speaker 1: Those things are all able to be done and available
Speaker 1: on Stellar and other networks, and so I think that
Speaker 1: you're going to see a lot of sort of play
Speaker 1: in that space. But just like we saw in the
Speaker 1: early days of the web. Applications came in, they offered
Speaker 1: tons of different things, and then eventually, like everything shakes out,
Speaker 1: and then the ones who are successful because they're offering
Speaker 1: end users, businesses and individuals alike what they want and
Speaker 1: what they need, and those players will ultimately survive. I'm
Speaker 1: just going to be there in the background constantly yelling
Speaker 1: about this need for us to stay open at the
Speaker 1: network layer. Everything else people can do their thing on,
Speaker 1: but we just need to stay open at the network layer.
Speaker 2: Oh for sure. Some of the ideal things that I
Speaker 2: would like to see is like the exam you gave.
Speaker 2: If it's Amazon or Apple, they have their own rewards token.
Speaker 2: It's interoppable maybe with other brands where I can go
Speaker 2: spend it at other brands. If I choose to leave
Speaker 2: it on the platform, maybe it earns me some rewards,
Speaker 2: like some sort of staking rewards, or the more I
Speaker 2: keep it on the platform or whatever it may be,
Speaker 2: the more discounts I get in my purchases over time.
Speaker 2: And I would love the web monetization of having a
Speaker 2: tip jar and being able to monetize that way. And
Speaker 2: maybe it's a different crypto assets or stable coins or
Speaker 2: things like that that would be really cool.
Speaker 1: Well, then if you think about it, how cool is it?
Speaker 1: And this is easy to do on install and on
Speaker 1: most layer ones, is that if that asset that you
Speaker 1: received as like a loyalty asset or a reward asset,
Speaker 1: then you could easily convert that through the decentralized exchange
Speaker 1: or something into another asset and then move over to
Speaker 1: another platform. Like this is actually what you can do
Speaker 1: with this tech staff. So I'm not at all like
Speaker 1: I know that everybody is issuing stable coins right now.
Speaker 1: Everybody's trying to figure out like where they play. Ultimately,
Speaker 1: I think that it's actually good for the market to
Speaker 1: have access to the opportunity to see, like who serious,
Speaker 1: who's going to stay in the game, who's going to
Speaker 1: do this thing and make it so that it's super
Speaker 1: valuable for us. I'd rather have fifty stable coins on
Speaker 1: Stellar than have one ourselves, because I think that that's
Speaker 1: like the market needs that. I also think it's really
Speaker 1: important to think about local stable coins, so at the
Speaker 1: country level, like if you think about those assets. So
Speaker 1: I'm really excited to see where this all plays out.
Speaker 1: But ultimately I think it's really important that the end
Speaker 1: user benefits from it. One of the things we kind
Speaker 1: of got wrong and Web two, and this is where
Speaker 1: I spend a lot of my energy and a lot
Speaker 1: of like the pieces that I focus on around privacy,
Speaker 1: but also just around monetization and also just the openness,
Speaker 1: is that we got it wrong with the privacy piece
Speaker 1: because users gave pieces of themselves but didn't get a
Speaker 1: lot of benefit from it. I used to always talk
Speaker 1: about this value which change. If you're going to give
Speaker 1: something up, then you should get something in return, and
Speaker 1: that didn't always happen. And frankly with privacy, I think
Speaker 1: it's sort of became like a you didn't actually know
Speaker 1: most of the time when you were giving a piece
Speaker 1: of yourself away. We can't, like within immutable archive history
Speaker 1: and a mutable record like blockchain, you can actually see
Speaker 1: the pieces of yourself that you're giving away. And so
Speaker 1: I think there's an opportunity to make this so that
Speaker 1: the user benefits and the user wins, whoever that user is.
Speaker 1: And that's what I want to see with blockchain.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well said, And you know, so far, we've seen
Speaker 2: that stable coins have been the killer app of blockchain.
Speaker 2: That's the statement that's been floating floating around or out there,
Speaker 2: maybe because that use case is getting a lot of
Speaker 2: penetration in the real world. But I'm excited to see
Speaker 2: what else is being you know, is going to be
Speaker 2: built and how users you know, can leverage that. And
Speaker 2: one of the things I've been thinking about is maybe
Speaker 2: something that will help people to recognize the value of
Speaker 2: blockchain in addition to stable coins, is we have aid
Speaker 2: fakes and new things that are popping up, and it's
Speaker 2: hard to verify is it's real. I see people sharing stuff.
Speaker 2: I'm like, this is not real. This is like Sora
Speaker 2: or whatever it is. But if you leverage blockchain on
Speaker 2: those platforms and you date stamp it and you put
Speaker 2: you know, the history of where this is from and
Speaker 2: who published it, that could help us verify and this
Speaker 2: is going to be a real problem. It seems like.
Speaker 1: It's so interesting that you talk about that. I think
Speaker 1: that's absolutely true. I think that there are going to
Speaker 1: be blockchains that are going to come up and that
Speaker 1: will be their core focus area, and I think I
Speaker 1: love that. It's Actually the funny part about it is, Tony,
Speaker 1: this is exactly the issue that we had to deal
Speaker 1: with the content providers way back when in the early
Speaker 1: days of the web, when the content providers were like,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, this is not our content. This and
Speaker 1: this user generated content has taken our content and changed
Speaker 1: it and now they're getting monetization from it. But it's
Speaker 1: and you know, they would do the notice and takedown
Speaker 1: to get content removed from the site, and we didn't
Speaker 1: have like a lot of times that they tried to
Speaker 1: do was do water marking. Water Marking was complicated, But
Speaker 1: you're right, like when you think about like what blockchain
Speaker 1: can do, it can create that record and show like
Speaker 1: this is when that was created and look at what
Speaker 1: it is. And so it's a pretty cool way to
Speaker 1: be able to create that immutable record that means that
Speaker 1: this is mine. So I do think there's just so
Speaker 1: much opportunity with blockchain generally. I mean, we focus so
Speaker 1: much on the financial infrastructure part of it, and this
Speaker 1: is a component of financial infrastructure because it's how how
Speaker 1: companies make money from the assets that they leverage. But
Speaker 1: I think that there's just so much more to see
Speaker 1: in this space.
Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the other problems I encounter as a
Speaker 2: content creator is that people impersonate the brand right, they
Speaker 2: will create a profile and try to go scam people,
Speaker 2: and it happens to every influencer or content creator out there,
Speaker 2: and it's a real big problem because people fall for
Speaker 2: it sometimes. And if you can have some sort of
Speaker 2: blockchain layer where people can click verify or a dialogue
Speaker 2: box opens up and says this was created yesterday or no,
Speaker 2: this is originally from Tony, this is act thinking crypto,
Speaker 2: I think that would help save a lot of people,
Speaker 2: you know, headaches.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I absolutely think that there's going to be because
Speaker 1: of those two coming together, the amazing use of AI
Speaker 1: in there's a lot of good to it, but then
Speaker 1: there's also a lot of challenge with it, and there's
Speaker 1: going to have to be that balance. I'm really excited
Speaker 1: to see there's legal components to it. Sometimes I put
Speaker 1: my legal brad to work and I think, like, how
Speaker 1: do we actually make this so that you can still
Speaker 1: protect your likeness and your image in a world like this.
Speaker 1: And it's really cool to see the people that are
Speaker 1: working on this now and leveraging what they can, which
Speaker 1: is the new technologies as AI but also as blockchain.
Speaker 2: Oh for sure, now jumping back to stable coins because
Speaker 2: you know, you mentioned that you would rather have Stellar
Speaker 2: be a layer for multiple stable coins rather than create one. Obviously,
Speaker 2: with the Genius Act pass, you got a lot of
Speaker 2: stable coin players entering the market, even from the state level.
Speaker 2: I think North Dakota recently said they're going to do
Speaker 2: something Wyoming launch one. At some point, there's going to
Speaker 2: have to be some sort of consolidation, right Denell to
Speaker 2: everybody in the Grandma can have a stable coin.
Speaker 1: Well, I think it is. It's an interesting dynamic. And
Speaker 1: I think again, like we're in this great phase that
Speaker 1: maybe we should have been at five years ago, where
Speaker 1: we had more regulatory support in the US, because we
Speaker 1: would have seen some of this happen and we would
Speaker 1: all be at a different place. But I think about
Speaker 1: blockchain technology, and certainly when I think about Stellar, we're
Speaker 1: like eleven years old, but we're still at the phase
Speaker 1: of we're not yet walking, like if you think about
Speaker 1: like human evolution and like human development, and we're like
Speaker 1: to the place or maybe we're walking, but we're not
Speaker 1: yet running. And so it's okay, like we're in this
Speaker 1: space where lots of challenges and lots of opportunities are
Speaker 1: going to present themselves and I think one of them
Speaker 1: is the fact that Genius Act allowed the lots of
Speaker 1: folks to get into the stable coin game, and I
Speaker 1: think that this is beneficial for the end user ultimately,
Speaker 1: because the end user, whether they be business as or individuals,
Speaker 1: are going to get to choose what they're going to
Speaker 1: engage with. And I'd rather see more than less because
Speaker 1: I hate to see consolidation happen too early because you
Speaker 1: want to have that competition, You want to have the
Speaker 1: best technology to win. You also want to have the
Speaker 1: players who want to stay in the space win, so
Speaker 1: it's not just like someone who's in it and then
Speaker 1: like a stable coins weren't really what we wanted. But
Speaker 1: you're going to see people that did a stable coin
Speaker 1: and then they're like, wait, actually we're okay leveraging someone
Speaker 1: else's stable coin because we really wanted to focus on
Speaker 1: the payments angle and create a payment platform, and you're
Speaker 1: going to see people who are like, no, no, we're
Speaker 1: in this and we want to do it. So I'm
Speaker 1: actually really excited about it. We have lots of asset
Speaker 1: issuers who have visied different types of assets on Stellar,
Speaker 1: and I think it's going to be really valuable I
Speaker 1: do think one of the important things that we're we
Speaker 1: actually are spending a lot of time thinking about is
Speaker 1: the local stable coins. When we first started, and actually
Speaker 1: when I came to Stellar at the Sele Development Foundation,
Speaker 1: there was this idea that we wanted it anchored to
Speaker 1: be representative of every asset in the world, every FIAT
Speaker 1: backed asset in the world. And we wanted that because
Speaker 1: we believe that that's the best way to trade. That way,
Speaker 1: you're respecting the currencies that are for each country, but
Speaker 1: you're also leveraging the beauty of the US dollar or
Speaker 1: the Euro to be able to transfer and to be
Speaker 1: able to make this, and a lot of people want
Speaker 1: to hold those assets, and so we focused there, and
Speaker 1: we actually went out very early, and there were a
Speaker 1: lot of assets that were built at the local currency level,
Speaker 1: like in the global majority, like think about countries all
Speaker 1: over the world, but then there wasn't the liquidity. I
Speaker 1: actually think now, Tony that we're going to see people
Speaker 1: really focus around those currencies because central banks in those
Speaker 1: regions are going to want to protect the value of
Speaker 1: their currency and they're going to be comfortable with dollars
Speaker 1: coming in, but it's going to need to convert to
Speaker 1: the local currency so that they're not dollarizing the world.
Speaker 1: And I don't think that we want to end up
Speaker 1: with the dollar iceed world. So I'm really excited to
Speaker 1: see what happens with these countries that are already thinking like, Okay,
Speaker 1: how do we protect the stability of our currency, how
Speaker 1: can we still bring money into our country even if
Speaker 1: it comes in as a dollar, Let's convert it to
Speaker 1: either is it a stable coin, is it a CBDC,
Speaker 1: or is it government debt that we're going to actually
Speaker 1: leverage to trade? Because I kind of love the ability
Speaker 1: to think about that. So these are questions that I
Speaker 1: think that we're just now going to have to start
Speaker 1: getting into. We don't want to see a dollar ice world.
Speaker 1: We want to see the dollar be leveraged as often
Speaker 1: and as comfortably as they can. But we also want
Speaker 1: to see local governments really take control of their own
Speaker 1: currency and the protection of their assets internally.
Speaker 2: Oh for sure. And I wonder how that all these
Speaker 2: countries create their own stable corner as CBDC, how that
Speaker 2: changes FX markets and what that would look like with
Speaker 2: against settlement and much more.
Speaker 1: Well, that is the thing, like you already have the
Speaker 1: ability to do FX on chain, and I think you're
Speaker 1: going to see a lot more focused there. We're going
Speaker 1: to have a lot more players really think through how
Speaker 1: does that make sense? And if you actually have a
Speaker 1: local stable coin, so you have a stable coin, for
Speaker 1: example in Ghana, they if they issue is I think
Speaker 1: CBDCs is way way complicated. But if they actually issue
Speaker 1: government debt and you can leverage that as sort of
Speaker 1: like that local currency for example, and then you want
Speaker 1: to you want to exchange that for the dollar, and
Speaker 1: you could easily do that with low cost online. I
Speaker 1: don't know. I kind of see that that's the world
Speaker 1: I want to live in, and that effects is going
Speaker 1: to be the challenge. But I think it's also a
Speaker 1: really strong opportunity for us to be able to create
Speaker 1: the right tolls, the right expenses for people, but make
Speaker 1: it so that it's seamless.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that absolutely makes sense. You know, speaking of payments,
Speaker 2: I want to curious if there are any new updates
Speaker 2: around your partnership in money Gram and how they're leveraging
Speaker 2: this dollar blockchain and so forth.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty great to see, but you know, they've
Speaker 1: issued their own wallet. They're really focused right now in Columbia.
Speaker 1: They are really trying to make their rails work seamlessly
Speaker 1: on and off ramping. There's still global on and off
Speaker 1: ramping for wallets that are connected to Stellar, and eventually
Speaker 1: i'd love to see money Gram really get those rails
Speaker 1: to be strong ease of use. Sometimes it's a little
Speaker 1: harder on the cash inside, and so they're really focusing
Speaker 1: on trying to make that seamless. They're working on their infrastructure,
Speaker 1: even in their internal infrastructure and so not the blockchain components,
Speaker 1: just to make it so that it's really smooth. I
Speaker 1: really love that relationship. I think that we need global
Speaker 1: players like MoneyGram, Western unions, like those kinds of entities
Speaker 1: to be involved at the on and off ramping layer.
Speaker 1: And then we also need to respect the fact that
Speaker 1: local players are really really important too for on and
Speaker 1: off ranping. So again, like I kind of want it all.
Speaker 1: I don't want to limit it to anything, but I
Speaker 1: think that like what MoneyGram has done was kind of
Speaker 1: game changing for the industry to be able to take
Speaker 1: cash and to leverage it and to buy it, like
Speaker 1: to buy the US dollar backed asset, and then to
Speaker 1: be able to move between that for in a wallet
Speaker 1: it's amazing. And to open up their infrastructure. I always
Speaker 1: think about it as like MoneyGram opening up their infrastructure
Speaker 1: like an AWS and letting even competitors get into their infrastructure.
Speaker 1: Pretty cool. And then now the fact that they built
Speaker 1: a wallet and that while it is like, you know,
Speaker 1: scaling on Stellar is fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's awesome. You know, there were some community community
Speaker 2: questions where folks were asking about Stellar's plans for Brazil
Speaker 2: and maybe you could talk about your plans internationally Latin
Speaker 2: America and other regions.
Speaker 1: Brazil is so fun because we just had our writing
Speaker 1: conference in Rio and we had the deputy mayor of
Speaker 1: Rio com Rio has been really supportive of blockchain technology
Speaker 1: and even locally in terms of their own regulations, and
Speaker 1: I really really want us to pay attention to how
Speaker 1: we can help them to be able. What they already
Speaker 1: have a regulation that allows taxes to be paid with crypto.
Speaker 1: What can we do to help them to be able
Speaker 1: to facilitate that and make that really simple. I love it,
Speaker 1: and it was just a really great conversation and a
Speaker 1: wonderful place to be. Brazil is, you know, the largest
Speaker 1: market in that America, South America that has a tremendous
Speaker 1: amount of innovation. They've always been like very forward and
Speaker 1: very very much first, even in the web two days
Speaker 1: on policy, and it's really wonderful to see that. So,
Speaker 1: you know, we've always held very tight relationships in Latin
Speaker 1: America and South America. Lots of builders in the region,
Speaker 1: and we're going to continue to focus there. We actually
Speaker 1: hired Jose from PayPal. Jose is my chief growth officer
Speaker 1: at this point. Yes and yeah, and he is like,
Speaker 1: it's amazing because it's not yet. We're focused on Latin America,
Speaker 1: South America, the African continent if you think about just
Speaker 1: Amia generally. We are now ready. One of the things
Speaker 1: Tony I'd say is that there have been a lot
Speaker 1: of years where I've had folks internally say to me,
Speaker 1: we need to hire people globally, we need to hire
Speaker 1: people in all of these regions, and I didn't think
Speaker 1: that we were necessarily ready to do that and to
Speaker 1: scale at that level. And we are now so scaling
Speaker 1: on growth metrics globally is our place. It's our plan
Speaker 1: and focus for twenty twenty six, and having Jose be
Speaker 1: a part of it has been really fun. He's been
Speaker 1: here for just over one hundred days and it's been
Speaker 1: great to have him. So I think that our plans
Speaker 1: are go big and don't go home.
Speaker 2: That's awesome, And I know jose Well followed him over
Speaker 2: the years while he was at PayPal, so that's a
Speaker 2: great pickup by you guys, and he's got a lot
Speaker 2: of knowledge around crypto and payments and much more. I
Speaker 2: wanted to ask you about ETFs because there's a lot
Speaker 2: of old coin ETF filers. The SEC has changed the
Speaker 2: way they approach ETFs where it's much easier now to
Speaker 2: get them approved or at least filed. I know Great
Speaker 2: Scale has an XLM ETF product. Are you talking to
Speaker 2: other filers to launch products around XLLM.
Speaker 1: Well, I just saw actually a story come out today
Speaker 1: that Wisdom Try just launched an ETP in Europe. And
Speaker 1: so with XLM, I think that what's really important about
Speaker 1: the opportunity for that is it allows people who wouldn't
Speaker 1: necessarily get into the crypto space and get into understanding
Speaker 1: these ecosystems without that, and it gives them a way
Speaker 1: that they're comfortable with engaging. And so I think that
Speaker 1: you're going to see a lot more of these and
Speaker 1: you know, lots of folks reach out to us about
Speaker 1: these kinds of things. It's not sort of our space
Speaker 1: in terms of like, if they want to do that,
Speaker 1: then that's like they see value in it, and they
Speaker 1: see value for their consumers and there are businesses that
Speaker 1: they're working with to do that. But big picture, from
Speaker 1: my standpoint, I think it's really important and really wonderful
Speaker 1: to see new players engage in the ecosystem surrounding the
Speaker 1: Stellar network, and if that's the way to get them
Speaker 1: to do it, then that's I think that's another way.
Speaker 1: That is another avenue in and on.
Speaker 2: The other side of token you got digital asset treasury companies.
Speaker 2: It's trying to continue to grow and many of them
Speaker 2: are putting crypto assets on their balance sheet. You know,
Speaker 2: it all started with Big One, Michael Sailor and micro Strategy,
Speaker 2: but now tons of folks you're doing this with publicly
Speaker 2: traded companies. What are your thoughts on that trend and
Speaker 2: are some of these folks approaching you about adding XLM
Speaker 2: to the balance sheet.
Speaker 1: For sure, we get approached quite often around these dats,
Speaker 1: and you know, I had to spend some time really
Speaker 1: trying to understand the value of them. What I love
Speaker 1: about the opportunity. You know, we're a foundation, we focus
Speaker 1: on growth of the Stellar ecosystem, and we're one entity
Speaker 1: that spends a lot of time trying to make sure
Speaker 1: that we get the messages out not just about what's
Speaker 1: happening with the SDF, which is actually not as important
Speaker 1: as what's happening with the folks that are building on
Speaker 1: Stellar and that dats done well. Are actually another avenue
Speaker 1: to be able to go out to these and should
Speaker 1: create even a larger ecosystem around a network like Stellar.
Speaker 1: And so from that standpoint, I think they're interesting and
Speaker 1: I think that they provide another opportunity for people that
Speaker 1: might not purchase that asset on the market themselves, but
Speaker 1: they can feel more comfortable purchasing a company that's growing
Speaker 1: an ecosystem around an asset and purchasing equity from that.
Speaker 1: So I think it's an interesting trend. I mean, I've
Speaker 1: read a lot about the fact that some of them
Speaker 1: will be consolidation. That will be consolidation that will happen there,
Speaker 1: which is also sort of part of just like the
Speaker 1: way the world works in everything. So I think it's
Speaker 1: this is one of those times where I see so
Speaker 1: many really interesting opportunities out there to demonstrate the value
Speaker 1: not just Stellar but like all the different ecosystems that exist.
Speaker 1: And if this is another avenue in I think it's great. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And also I feel like they're trying to compete with ETFs.
Speaker 2: I personally prefer ETFs, and now that the SEC is
Speaker 2: going to prove these specific all coin ETFs, including like
Speaker 2: XLM and so forth, I don't necessarily see that personally
Speaker 2: that they need to invest in a company that's holding asset,
Speaker 2: but you know, people do different things with different assets,
Speaker 2: and they maybe just some sort of arbitrage here.
Speaker 1: But anyway, well, I think that it might be it
Speaker 1: might it might be tony the fact that some of
Speaker 1: these companies, it looks like, at least from my vantage point,
Speaker 1: that they actually have that operating business that they're working
Speaker 1: and then this is their treasury side. And on that
Speaker 1: treasury side, they're really focused around bringing attention to the
Speaker 1: good things that are happening in the ecosystems themselves. And
Speaker 1: so I think it's a little bit different from an
Speaker 1: ETF from that standpoint. But I hear you you have
Speaker 1: to just like figure out as an investor, what makes
Speaker 1: the most sense for you. But I do think that
Speaker 1: they the dat's, at least the ones that I've seen
Speaker 1: go to market. And certainly Michael Saylor sort of like
Speaker 1: the pioneer of this, like he's done a lot for
Speaker 1: bitcoin and the bitcoin ecosystem, not just for the asset itself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that definitely makes sense. I wanted to get your
Speaker 2: thoughts on the Clarity Act that's stuck in the Senate
Speaker 2: right now. We get government shut down, Well, let's say
Speaker 2: the government opens back up. You know, are you optimistic
Speaker 2: this thing could pass this quarter, maybe by December? And
Speaker 2: what do you think this means for the industry and
Speaker 2: even Firstellar.
Speaker 1: I want to say I'm optimistic. I'm going to be
Speaker 1: honest and tell you I think the government's got a
Speaker 1: lot of things that they need to take on. And
Speaker 1: you know, folks really wanted to get the clarity. They
Speaker 1: wanted to get clarity on the Clarity Act this year.
Speaker 1: We wanted to get that like kind of through. I
Speaker 1: think that what that does is it just tells the world,
Speaker 1: like what regulatory body is responsible for what things, and
Speaker 1: it creates the lane for the SEC and the lane
Speaker 1: for the other regulatory bodies to be able to focus
Speaker 1: on digital assets, and I think it's really important. I've
Speaker 1: advocated for the Clarity Act before it was called the
Speaker 1: Clarity Act. I sometimes think that even at different points,
Speaker 1: the Clarity Act hasn't brought clarity, Like there's been a
Speaker 1: lot of things in there that have actually muddied the waters.
Speaker 1: So I think we need to be careful about trying
Speaker 1: to push something through that is not going to create
Speaker 1: what we want to create, which is again the identification
Speaker 1: of the regulatory bodies and making sure that digital assets
Speaker 1: are commodities until they're not, and really thinking through those
Speaker 1: kinds of things and which agency is going to be
Speaker 1: responsible for that. That's what's important, and we need to
Speaker 1: make that happen, and like to say it's going to
Speaker 1: happen before the end of the year, but I'm not
Speaker 1: confident given the fact that we have a lot of
Speaker 1: stuff going on in the government that's not relevant to
Speaker 1: the digital asset space.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, it's it's just politics, right, how government works.
Speaker 2: So hopefully, fingers crossed they were able to do something,
Speaker 2: but we'll see, you know, maybe worst case it pushes
Speaker 2: into Q one twenty six or something like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was pretty confident it was going to go
Speaker 1: through much earlier in the year. You know, they tried
Speaker 1: to tie it, so there were some folks who were
Speaker 1: trying to tie it together with the Genius Act, and
Speaker 1: I ultimately think it was better that we didn't do that.
Speaker 1: I ultimately think that it was a good move to
Speaker 1: separate them, which is where they were before, and to
Speaker 1: allow them to sort of like have their own lanes.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I want to see it happened too, maybe
Speaker 1: Q one next year. Who knows, we might all get
Speaker 1: surprised and it could come to light in this year.
Speaker 1: But I think, yeah, we're this government's got some challenges
Speaker 1: for sure.
Speaker 2: Questioning for I let you go. You mentioned, you know,
Speaker 2: part of your twenty twenty six road map was the
Speaker 2: international expansion. Just curious if there's anything else you wanted
Speaker 2: to highlight that's on the roadmap.
Speaker 1: Well, I think privacy and scalability. If you think about
Speaker 1: what we care about for twenty twenty six, what we
Speaker 1: cared about for twenty twenty five, but it's going to
Speaker 1: be much louder and much broader in twenty twenty six,
Speaker 1: is scalability and usability. We need to meet the real
Speaker 1: world demands on Stellar and particularly those demands when it
Speaker 1: comes to everyday financial services. So you're going to see
Speaker 1: us really really focused there. And you know, I think
Speaker 1: that we've stretched a lot over the last i'd say
Speaker 1: eight years, and we've really stretched into like the even
Speaker 1: soorbon growing the smart contract platform. We've done just so much.
Speaker 1: We've seen the smart contract platform Onstellar increase one hundred
Speaker 1: and ninety four percent and TVL year on year, and
Speaker 1: that was at the end of you two. It just
Speaker 1: continues to grow, and so I love where we've gone,
Speaker 1: but we need to focus on scaling and really creating
Speaker 1: this usability in the market, and that's what we're going
Speaker 1: to do.
Speaker 2: Awesome, Danelle, love it, Love all the initiatives and everything
Speaker 2: that's going on. And I'm sure we're going to have
Speaker 2: to do another interview maybe Q one twenty twenty six,
Speaker 2: and you know, Clarity Act will be past there then
Speaker 2: and then there you know, some new updates as well.
Speaker 2: But thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker 1: Pleasure to be here, Tommy, thanks for having me