WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:02.319 People want to build and tokenized on Stellar because it's 2 00:00:02.359 --> 00:00:04.879 built for that. Tokenization and payments for the two things 3 00:00:04.919 --> 00:00:07.519 that we hyper focused on since day one, and asset 4 00:00:07.559 --> 00:00:10.160 tokenization for the real world. We want to be there 5 00:00:10.320 --> 00:00:13.640 bringing all of these assets for everyday financial services onto 6 00:00:13.679 --> 00:00:17.440 the network. Privacy is the opportunity because all the traditional 7 00:00:17.440 --> 00:00:20.359 financial infrastructure is not going to be built on blockchain 8 00:00:20.440 --> 00:00:23.039 unless we have the privacy solution, and Stellar wants to 9 00:00:23.079 --> 00:00:24.079 be able to make that happen. 10 00:00:24.199 --> 00:00:26.679 As far as the mechanisms, there's been talked about, zero 11 00:00:26.760 --> 00:00:29.600 knowledge proofs and other types of things. Is Stellar developing 12 00:00:29.600 --> 00:00:32.280 its own or using any type of models that are 13 00:00:32.320 --> 00:00:32.679 out there. 14 00:00:32.759 --> 00:00:34.799 We actually like to be able to build these things 15 00:00:34.840 --> 00:00:37.039 with partners so that we can think through what their 16 00:00:37.119 --> 00:00:37.560 needs are. 17 00:00:42.679 --> 00:00:45.119 This episode is brought to you by Uphold, which is 18 00:00:45.159 --> 00:00:48.240 a great crypto platform that makes it easy to buy, sell, 19 00:00:48.359 --> 00:00:53.159 and stay crypto assets. Uphold has over three hundred plus cryptocurrencies, 20 00:00:53.159 --> 00:00:56.079 including Bitcoin in all the top all coins, and they 21 00:00:56.119 --> 00:01:00.600 offer a crypto staking on over nineteen crypto assets. I've 22 00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:03.159 been a user of the platform for many years. They 23 00:01:03.159 --> 00:01:06.359 are safe and reliable. 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You can earn up the 34 00:01:37.959 --> 00:01:41.200 five percent on that stable coin and five point two 35 00:01:41.280 --> 00:01:44.640 five percent on USBC. So if you'd like to learn 36 00:01:44.640 --> 00:01:47.239 more about Uphold and all the great services they offer, 37 00:01:47.599 --> 00:01:51.079 visit the link in the description. Hey folks, welcome into 38 00:01:51.079 --> 00:01:53.840 the Thinking Crypto podcast. I'm your host Tony Edward and 39 00:01:53.959 --> 00:01:56.920 joining me today's Danelle Dixon, who is the CEO and 40 00:01:57.000 --> 00:02:01.000 executive director at the Stellar Development Foundation. And Deanelle. Great 41 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:03.319 to see you, Great to have you back on, Tony. 42 00:02:03.359 --> 00:02:04.879 It's so awesome to see you. Thanks so much for 43 00:02:04.879 --> 00:02:05.239 having me. 44 00:02:05.840 --> 00:02:08.680 Yeah, Denell, we've spoken a couple of times, I believe 45 00:02:08.719 --> 00:02:10.840 over the years I've followed you and of course the 46 00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:14.680 Stellar Development Foundation. You've often spoken in front of Congress 47 00:02:14.719 --> 00:02:17.719 and talked about crypto legislation and the things that we 48 00:02:17.800 --> 00:02:19.520 need to get going, and you know, there's been a 49 00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:21.759 lot of developments around Stellar as well. So I'm excited 50 00:02:21.800 --> 00:02:24.080 to go through the details there. Maybe we can kick 51 00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:29.680 it off with the Stellar Developments Foundation's privacy strategy and 52 00:02:29.840 --> 00:02:32.039 what's your goal there and plans and so forth. 53 00:02:32.120 --> 00:02:35.719 Yeah, Well, I mean, privacy is the opportunity, and it's 54 00:02:35.759 --> 00:02:39.680 the opportunity because Tradify and all the traditional financial infrastructure 55 00:02:39.719 --> 00:02:42.120 is not going to be built on blockchain unless we 56 00:02:42.199 --> 00:02:44.879 have the privacy solution, and Stellar wants to be able 57 00:02:44.879 --> 00:02:47.360 to make that happen. And so it's not going to 58 00:02:47.360 --> 00:02:49.319 be a one to one match. If you think about 59 00:02:49.319 --> 00:02:52.400 privacy in the off chain world, it might be a 60 00:02:52.439 --> 00:02:54.879 little different. But we need to be able to take 61 00:02:54.919 --> 00:02:57.439 the benefits of blockchain and what blockchain has to offer, 62 00:02:57.520 --> 00:03:00.000 and take the needs from the consumer and the business 63 00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:03.879 privacy that we're hearing from the traditional financial infrastructure and 64 00:03:03.960 --> 00:03:07.159 implement that. So this is an area that first of all, 65 00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:08.879 privacy has like been near and dear to my heart 66 00:03:08.919 --> 00:03:12.199 for many many many years, and things that I've advocated 67 00:03:12.240 --> 00:03:16.520 for also before Congress, but before I came to Stellar 68 00:03:16.560 --> 00:03:19.080 and before I got into the space regarding privacy and 69 00:03:19.080 --> 00:03:20.919 the importance of it. And so it's really fun to 70 00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:23.319 see these worlds merge and for us to be able 71 00:03:23.319 --> 00:03:24.639 to be hyper focused in right now. 72 00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:29.039 Absolutely, I mean, Danelle, we don't want our healthcare information, 73 00:03:29.080 --> 00:03:31.360 our private data out there in the blockchain for everyone 74 00:03:31.400 --> 00:03:32.439 to see. 75 00:03:32.879 --> 00:03:35.000 I mean, this is an interesting point, is that when 76 00:03:35.479 --> 00:03:37.719 it's not that different from way back when when I 77 00:03:37.800 --> 00:03:41.599 was working at Mozilla and advocating for protecting user privacy, 78 00:03:41.639 --> 00:03:43.680 and we talked a lot about like an API to me, 79 00:03:43.840 --> 00:03:46.560 like let me let you into my world, don't just 80 00:03:46.639 --> 00:03:48.879 take what you want from my world. We actually have 81 00:03:49.000 --> 00:03:51.120 the opportunity to sort of make that work here in 82 00:03:51.159 --> 00:03:54.159 a really beautiful way. And so we're thinking about like 83 00:03:54.360 --> 00:03:57.280 confidential transactions that could be at the balance level, that 84 00:03:57.319 --> 00:04:00.439 could be at the send and receive level. It's ways 85 00:04:00.479 --> 00:04:04.439 to be able to repurpose that immutability of the blockchain 86 00:04:04.520 --> 00:04:07.840 history and the blockchain archive and protect that, but also 87 00:04:08.280 --> 00:04:11.159 make sure that the individual and the business's information is 88 00:04:11.199 --> 00:04:13.319 protected as well. So I think that this is a 89 00:04:13.319 --> 00:04:14.240 great space for us. 90 00:04:14.479 --> 00:04:18.720 Yeah, absolutely much needy. Like you said, institutions, This is 91 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:21.600 going to be a big requirement because certain information obviously 92 00:04:21.639 --> 00:04:24.240 they don't want out there. As far as the mechanisms, 93 00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:26.959 you know, there's been talk about zero knowledge proofs and 94 00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:29.920 other types of things in Stellar developing its own or 95 00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:32.399 using any type of models that are out there. 96 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:35.000 Well, you need the base level for ZkS to be 97 00:04:35.079 --> 00:04:37.720 in there. We really really like it when the ecosystem 98 00:04:37.800 --> 00:04:40.000 comes and has ideas. We actually like to be able 99 00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:43.319 to build these things with partners so that we can 100 00:04:43.360 --> 00:04:45.800 think through like what their needs are. Building in the 101 00:04:45.879 --> 00:04:48.360 dark doesn't really help. We need to be able to 102 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:52.399 understand the real world impact of what a solution is 103 00:04:52.480 --> 00:04:55.120 and what users might want. So we have a few 104 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:57.839 folks that we're working with when we think about what 105 00:04:58.199 --> 00:05:00.279 it takes for them to be able to rea their 106 00:05:00.360 --> 00:05:02.319 users and what their users are demanding, whether those be 107 00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:05.639 businesses or end users, and using those and to create 108 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:08.160 the privacy solutions that way is a really important thing. 109 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:10.480 But certainly zkproofs are and there. You have the primitives 110 00:05:10.519 --> 00:05:13.759 already somewhat on the network, and we're going to add 111 00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:15.920 more primitives to it. So that others can build on it. 112 00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:18.160 This is how you build an ecosystem and how you 113 00:05:18.160 --> 00:05:21.839 make sure the ecosystem is involved in what you're doing. Yeah. Absolutely. 114 00:05:22.160 --> 00:05:25.079 Now you mentioned, you know, institutions, and one of the 115 00:05:25.079 --> 00:05:28.199 things I wanted to discuss was the adoption of Stellar 116 00:05:29.199 --> 00:05:33.680 for tokenization where you have centrifuge, Ondo, PayPal, red Swan, 117 00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:36.240 you know, I was just looking at RWA do xyz 118 00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:39.720 sc Steller's number eight as far as total value tokenize 119 00:05:39.759 --> 00:05:42.560 on the chain. Tell us about what type of institutions 120 00:05:42.600 --> 00:05:44.519 are building here, what are some of the things you're 121 00:05:44.519 --> 00:05:45.399 tokenizing and more. 122 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:48.519 Yeah, importantly, we're number two when it comes to treasuries, 123 00:05:48.560 --> 00:05:50.079 and we've been number two for a really long time 124 00:05:50.120 --> 00:05:52.959 behind Ethereum, and that's what we see a lot of 125 00:05:53.000 --> 00:05:56.079 opportunity space in and people want to build and tokenized 126 00:05:56.079 --> 00:05:58.279 on Stellar because it's built for that. We've thought about 127 00:05:58.279 --> 00:06:01.720 tokenizations since day one. Tokenization and payments for the two 128 00:06:01.759 --> 00:06:04.839 things that we hyper focused on, and asset tokenization for 129 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:07.360 the real world. We want to be there where the 130 00:06:07.399 --> 00:06:10.680 real world bringing all of these assets for everyday financial 131 00:06:10.680 --> 00:06:14.279 services onto the network, and so we have the compliance 132 00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:16.279 layer that's built in. We have all of the things 133 00:06:16.279 --> 00:06:20.079 that traditional financial infrastructure has wanted and now sees, oh wait, 134 00:06:20.160 --> 00:06:22.199 it's here, and it's actually easy for us to do that, 135 00:06:22.680 --> 00:06:24.879 and it's really exciting to see that. So we want 136 00:06:24.920 --> 00:06:27.399 to we want to meet the real world demand with 137 00:06:27.720 --> 00:06:30.480 what's available on the network, and I think we're doing that. 138 00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:32.319 And so you see that there's a ton of growth 139 00:06:32.319 --> 00:06:34.480 there and there, and there will continue to be growth. 140 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:36.839 There's lots of like the ones that you just mentioned. 141 00:06:37.279 --> 00:06:40.279 We just that they just launched actually at Stellar at 142 00:06:40.279 --> 00:06:43.199 our Meridian event in Rio this year, and now we're 143 00:06:43.199 --> 00:06:44.720 going to see a lot more of them come to 144 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:47.199 the network too. So it's been it's been great to 145 00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:51.000 see frankly, what we've built, you know, eleven years ago, 146 00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:54.480 really be leveraged and come to fruition and really like 147 00:06:54.560 --> 00:06:56.439 meeting the demand of the ecosystem today. 148 00:06:57.319 --> 00:06:59.600 Yeah, for sure. And you know, I'm really fascinated by 149 00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:02.279 red ste One and the fact that they're tokenizing real 150 00:07:02.399 --> 00:07:05.040 estate because we've seen a lot of folks like do treasuries. 151 00:07:05.279 --> 00:07:08.360 There's a big race now for stocks and equities, but 152 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:11.240 real estate the world's largest asset class. I feel that's 153 00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:14.720 still you know, it's not tapped in fully yet and 154 00:07:15.319 --> 00:07:17.519 this is really cool that they're doing that, and I'm 155 00:07:17.560 --> 00:07:20.600 excited to see what how they do this commercial real 156 00:07:20.680 --> 00:07:26.079 estate really you know, I should say the non commercial 157 00:07:26.360 --> 00:07:28.879 residential I should say, and what that looks like and 158 00:07:28.879 --> 00:07:30.120 how that can change markets. 159 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:32.920 Well, I am so excited about red Swan. I met 160 00:07:32.920 --> 00:07:34.920 them a couple of years ago. I actually met them 161 00:07:35.240 --> 00:07:37.680 in person, although we've been working with them MTM in 162 00:07:37.720 --> 00:07:39.920 person at Davos, and I was just so excited with 163 00:07:39.959 --> 00:07:42.079 what they had to offer because these are large scale 164 00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:45.600 Some of them are large scale buildings that you know, 165 00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:49.120 think like large apartment buildings or hotels from the commercial standpoint, 166 00:07:49.319 --> 00:07:51.439 and then also, as you say, residences so that people 167 00:07:51.480 --> 00:07:54.199 can own fractionalized interest in it. This has been something 168 00:07:54.240 --> 00:07:57.000 that actually was started years ago, Like not with red Swan, 169 00:07:57.040 --> 00:07:59.839 another player actually started it on Stellar. We've seen token 170 00:07:59.879 --> 00:08:02.319 I oil barrels on Stellar, like all of these really 171 00:08:02.319 --> 00:08:04.720 fun things, but I think those were a little bit 172 00:08:04.759 --> 00:08:07.680 early to the market, and now you see red Swan. 173 00:08:07.759 --> 00:08:10.120 I think it's hitting the market at exactly the right time. 174 00:08:10.600 --> 00:08:12.560 The thing about it is when we think about everyday 175 00:08:12.560 --> 00:08:15.279 financial services, it's the ability to put your money into 176 00:08:15.319 --> 00:08:18.399 create capital and to be involved in capitalism in a 177 00:08:18.519 --> 00:08:20.920 unique way. And when you think about being able to 178 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:24.639 purchase a fractionalized ownership of real estate, it actually allows 179 00:08:24.680 --> 00:08:28.040 your money to grow and to grow through the growth 180 00:08:28.079 --> 00:08:30.879 of an asset out there that is in high demand 181 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:33.919 by everyone. So it's really exciting to see that and 182 00:08:33.960 --> 00:08:36.399 not to have barriers to entry so that anyone could 183 00:08:36.399 --> 00:08:39.399 actually use this. This is what everyday financial services are 184 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:41.440 and this is what we really like to focus on. 185 00:08:41.879 --> 00:08:45.200 So deanelle a bit about the toganization market. It seems 186 00:08:45.200 --> 00:08:47.639 the puck is heading where a lot of these traditional 187 00:08:47.639 --> 00:08:50.720 assets will be on the blockchain, fractionalize, you'll be able 188 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:52.840 to put them to work and DeFi and we're going 189 00:08:52.919 --> 00:08:55.600 to have almost twenty four to seven markets maybe for 190 00:08:55.679 --> 00:08:58.639 some assets, not all, but also more of a global reach, 191 00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:01.000 more liquidity coming in from different parts of the world. 192 00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:03.360 Do you see it that way and what are some 193 00:09:03.399 --> 00:09:06.720 of your expectations maybe by twenty thirty for the tokenization market. 194 00:09:07.200 --> 00:09:09.840 Yeah, I think that The way we think about Stellar, 195 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:12.320 certainly in twenty twenty five, twenty twenty six and beyond 196 00:09:12.440 --> 00:09:15.000 is scalability and usability, and a lot of it is 197 00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:17.639 focused around tokenizing these assets and making sure that these 198 00:09:17.679 --> 00:09:20.919 assets can be leveraged across all markets. So when you 199 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:23.639 think about they're not all of them are quite ready 200 00:09:23.639 --> 00:09:25.639 for the DFIED platforms yet, but they want to be. 201 00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:27.879 Not all of them are quite ready to be used 202 00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:30.519 for payment mechanisms, but they want to be. And so 203 00:09:30.639 --> 00:09:33.360 we need to let a little bit of the policy 204 00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:36.279 and the regulatory environment catch up with what this technology 205 00:09:36.320 --> 00:09:39.000 can do. But I love that these players are thinking 206 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:41.159 ahead and they're trying to figure out, like what are 207 00:09:41.159 --> 00:09:43.559 the things like if you think about paying with stable coins, 208 00:09:43.600 --> 00:09:45.600 that's amazing. But if you think about the fact that 209 00:09:45.679 --> 00:09:48.159 you can hold a US back treasury asset and then 210 00:09:48.200 --> 00:09:51.080 also make payments with that US back treasury asset, so 211 00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:53.879 that you're also the money is sitting there working for 212 00:09:53.960 --> 00:09:55.879 you and you get to leverage payments just like a 213 00:09:55.879 --> 00:09:57.639 traditional money market fund where you used to be able 214 00:09:57.639 --> 00:10:00.360 to direct checks from it, it's pretty great. And to 215 00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:02.720 make that sort of on a global scale, which is 216 00:10:02.720 --> 00:10:05.759 what we're seeing, is also really wonderful, so I think, 217 00:10:05.840 --> 00:10:08.759 and then to be able to put them into yield bearing, 218 00:10:09.440 --> 00:10:11.240 to put them into pools so that you can generate 219 00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:13.840 yield from it just create so much opportunity for the 220 00:10:13.960 --> 00:10:16.080 end user, whether that be a small to medium size 221 00:10:16.120 --> 00:10:20.159 institution or an end user an individual. So I think 222 00:10:20.440 --> 00:10:23.360 that we want to meet the market demand. The real 223 00:10:23.399 --> 00:10:25.879 world assets are going to be part of that and 224 00:10:25.919 --> 00:10:28.879 bringing those to the blockchain are really important. But I 225 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:31.480 completely agree with you that this is the place that 226 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:34.320 we're going to see a tremendous amount of growth because 227 00:10:34.360 --> 00:10:37.279 this is just another rail for them, and this rail 228 00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:39.679 should be leveraged and is going to be game changing 229 00:10:39.840 --> 00:10:43.399 for these traditional financial institutions because they get to do it, 230 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:47.200 as you say, twenty four hours, and that is it's 231 00:10:47.240 --> 00:10:48.799 a bit of a real world settlement to them. It 232 00:10:48.840 --> 00:10:50.600 is a little bit, I mean real time settlement to 233 00:10:50.600 --> 00:10:52.759 them is a little different and a little sometimes challenging 234 00:10:52.759 --> 00:10:54.960 for their internal infrastructure, but they're all going to get 235 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:57.639 there and then it's just going to be hugely beneficial 236 00:10:57.759 --> 00:11:00.080 for frankly the globe. 237 00:11:00.440 --> 00:11:03.919 Yeah, it's it opens up just a world of possibilities 238 00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:05.879 and you know a lot of benefits to people who 239 00:11:06.080 --> 00:11:09.480 didn't have access of financial services or banking services, and 240 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:11.960 now they could be maybe in some country in Africa 241 00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:14.200 they just have a smartphone, but that's all they need 242 00:11:14.240 --> 00:11:17.399 in this wallet based setup world right, and to access 243 00:11:17.399 --> 00:11:19.399 some of these assets, and even if it's just a 244 00:11:19.399 --> 00:11:21.399 small amount, you know, that could be life changing for 245 00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:23.200 them and they can put some of their assets to 246 00:11:23.279 --> 00:11:26.039 work and it just opens up a lot of opportunities. 247 00:11:26.279 --> 00:11:28.039 Well, and I think the biggest point is we talk 248 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:30.559 a lot about access, and yet people sometimes say, well, 249 00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:32.360 when they're treasuries, does that really make it so that 250 00:11:32.360 --> 00:11:35.159 it's accessible and does that change the access game? And 251 00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:40.279 the fact is that the tokenizing treasuries and also frankly 252 00:11:40.279 --> 00:11:42.399 all of these real world assets, it's beneficial on both 253 00:11:42.440 --> 00:11:45.320 sides of it. The institutions find that it's super helpful 254 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:48.720 for them because they can actually put their workforce to 255 00:11:49.080 --> 00:11:51.679 different parts of their business because now they only have 256 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:54.639 a ledger that they can focus on, so they don't 257 00:11:54.639 --> 00:11:57.240 have to like make their internal ledgers all balanced, because 258 00:11:57.240 --> 00:11:59.200 they can use a global public network that they can 259 00:11:59.240 --> 00:12:01.759 leverage for their life which is kind of game changing 260 00:12:01.799 --> 00:12:04.639 for them. But the access point is really important. I 261 00:12:04.639 --> 00:12:08.039 think sometimes people forget this because barriers to entry were 262 00:12:08.039 --> 00:12:10.159 always really high. If you think about you know, even 263 00:12:10.200 --> 00:12:12.399 Franklin Templeton all USUM because I know that their their 264 00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:16.519 asset Benji. What they've done there very well. They originally 265 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:18.639 to get into their money market funds that were off 266 00:12:18.679 --> 00:12:21.080 chain money market funds. It costs twenty five hundred dollars. 267 00:12:21.080 --> 00:12:23.440 The entry point was twenty five hundred. Now it's twenty 268 00:12:23.440 --> 00:12:26.200 five in Benji. That's a huge difference. And so when 269 00:12:26.200 --> 00:12:27.720 you talk about the fact that it might just be 270 00:12:27.759 --> 00:12:29.919 a little bit or they could have fractionalized ownership of 271 00:12:29.960 --> 00:12:33.200 different components of it, that is like, it's a very 272 00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:36.600 big difference about getting into an asset. And I think 273 00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:39.879 that that number just comes down over time once this 274 00:12:39.960 --> 00:12:43.919 becomes commonplace that people are leveraging blockchain. So it's very 275 00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:45.639 exciting to see that, and you're right, I think it 276 00:12:45.679 --> 00:12:48.759 does really change the dynamics and allows more people to 277 00:12:48.759 --> 00:12:52.320 get involved in the traditional financial infrastructure. I mean, the 278 00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:55.240 number is something like seventy percent of the world, and 279 00:12:55.240 --> 00:12:58.840 the individuals and the world work outside of and work 280 00:12:59.240 --> 00:13:03.159 and don't actually leverage traditional financial infrastructure in their countries, 281 00:13:03.960 --> 00:13:06.039 and this can bring them into it in a very 282 00:13:06.120 --> 00:13:08.879 different way. It's either because they don't trust the governments 283 00:13:08.919 --> 00:13:11.159 that might be involved, or they can't get access to it. 284 00:13:11.399 --> 00:13:13.720 And now they can, and so this is just it 285 00:13:14.120 --> 00:13:17.000 creates this ability for everyone to be involved, and that's 286 00:13:17.039 --> 00:13:18.159 what's really exciting about it. 287 00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:21.399 Oh, for sure, you know with these institutions that are 288 00:13:21.399 --> 00:13:24.120 building on Stellar and you know, if we go back 289 00:13:24.120 --> 00:13:25.879 to now, obviously you've been here in this industry for 290 00:13:25.919 --> 00:13:28.240 a long time and we've gone through the painful parts 291 00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:31.919 of you know, the attack on crypto and much more. 292 00:13:31.960 --> 00:13:34.960 Are the institutions more so coming to you now or 293 00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:37.639 are you and is it easier to talk to them 294 00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:40.200 about crypto and building and tokenization in these things? 295 00:13:40.759 --> 00:13:43.320 For sure? I think the most important thing is is 296 00:13:43.320 --> 00:13:45.159 that you don't want to have like the square peg 297 00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:47.919 ground hole, like you don't want things to just not match. 298 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:50.279 And so some institutions that we talk to, and a 299 00:13:50.279 --> 00:13:52.759 lot of them do come to us, but some institutions 300 00:13:52.759 --> 00:13:55.000 don't exactly know how they want to leverage it. They 301 00:13:55.080 --> 00:13:57.639 just know they want to understand blockchain and that we're 302 00:13:57.639 --> 00:13:59.440 there for that too, because we want to make it 303 00:13:59.480 --> 00:14:01.159 work on both sides. You don't want to just have 304 00:14:01.279 --> 00:14:04.279 someone build stable coin, for example, when the stable coin 305 00:14:04.360 --> 00:14:06.960 isn't necessarily the thing that they really wanted to be 306 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:09.240 able to put into the world. Or tokenize some of 307 00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:11.799 their assets, but then they actually really wanted to be 308 00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:14.039 able to focus on payments and maybe they could have 309 00:14:14.120 --> 00:14:16.080 leverage other assets in there. So a lot of this 310 00:14:16.120 --> 00:14:19.879 is really great conversation now that frankly where people folks 311 00:14:19.919 --> 00:14:23.879 were more afraid to have before the Trump administration came in. 312 00:14:23.879 --> 00:14:25.879 In the US, it has really been kind of game 313 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:28.600 changing in terms of the policies and the regulatory environment 314 00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:31.080 being more open to it, and it's opened the doors 315 00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:34.320 to these traditional financial players to say, Okay, we know 316 00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:37.279 this technology can change the game for us, so what 317 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:39.360 can we do on Stellar to make it so that 318 00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:42.879 it's benefiting the business but also our intended recipients. 319 00:14:42.919 --> 00:14:45.279 You know, talking about you mentioned the Trump administration. This 320 00:14:45.399 --> 00:14:50.039 year has been a complete one adea. It's like, you know, 321 00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:53.080 the storm has passed and the sunshine on us, and 322 00:14:53.120 --> 00:14:54.759 it just feels like a great time to be in 323 00:14:54.759 --> 00:14:57.080 the industry, to be building. I see a lot of people, 324 00:14:57.120 --> 00:15:00.440 more optimistic, entrepreneurs, innovators, a lot of investments, a lot 325 00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:03.519 of new things that are happening in the industry. And 326 00:15:04.039 --> 00:15:06.919 I thought of your article that you recently published on 327 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:11.879 the Stellar website about Web three and Web two and 328 00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:15.039 the dynamic there and the title if I pull it 329 00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:19.080 up here, let's build open highways, not for roads. Tell 330 00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:21.840 us about this piece and what you're seeing as far 331 00:15:21.879 --> 00:15:22.360 as the vision. 332 00:15:23.039 --> 00:15:25.080 Yeah, I think that you're right that this is like 333 00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:27.639 I think, the most amazing time to come into Crypto, 334 00:15:27.679 --> 00:15:30.039 although it was actually really fun to come into Crypto 335 00:15:30.120 --> 00:15:32.159 years ago too because it was just a different environment 336 00:15:32.200 --> 00:15:37.039 in a different building space. But there's really amazing competition 337 00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:39.519 out there. Lots of folks are trying to get into 338 00:15:40.360 --> 00:15:43.440 and figure out where the space fits for them. The 339 00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:45.639 piece that I wrote that you're referencing there is really 340 00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:49.799 talking about vertical integration, and the vertical integration and centralization 341 00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:54.399 is actually usually the easiest way, the easiest path forward 342 00:15:54.440 --> 00:15:56.440 for a lot of players, because you can control it, 343 00:15:56.480 --> 00:15:58.120 you can own it, you can fix it, you can 344 00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:00.840 do lots of things to it. The challenge of that 345 00:16:01.039 --> 00:16:03.559 is when you think about like the network layer, which 346 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:07.240 is the layer one, and not being owned or controlled 347 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:10.840 by anyone entity creates the wrong incentives. And we saw 348 00:16:10.879 --> 00:16:14.399 this when I think back to my days in Web 349 00:16:14.440 --> 00:16:17.600 two and really focusing on like getting the Internet to 350 00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:20.240 be adopted, and you had all these application layers building 351 00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:23.240 on top and it was it was hyper focused around content. 352 00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:26.720 What we saw. We tried to keep things open there. 353 00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:30.159 We always kept the infra layer open, that network layers open. 354 00:16:30.200 --> 00:16:32.799 It still is today, which is really pretty remarkable and 355 00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:36.240 demonstrates the power and then open network because it allows 356 00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:38.879 for global integration and for folks to do whatever they 357 00:16:38.919 --> 00:16:41.559 want on top of it. Where we saw the vertical 358 00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:45.039 the cannibalization, we saw that happen at the next layer, 359 00:16:45.080 --> 00:16:47.559 at the application layer, and so you saw like five 360 00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:50.639 companies ultimately own the content on the web. And the 361 00:16:50.679 --> 00:16:53.639 inability like when Google started, Google was able to crawl 362 00:16:53.639 --> 00:16:55.519 the web and like kind of get everywhere and that's 363 00:16:55.519 --> 00:16:58.279 how they started their indexing. You couldn't do that today 364 00:16:58.360 --> 00:17:00.360 because there were walls all over the place. So it's 365 00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:03.879 really hard to do that. Again, that's the application layer, 366 00:17:04.039 --> 00:17:07.200 and sometimes content gets trapped and you have walls around 367 00:17:07.240 --> 00:17:10.240 the content, and having walls around content is not awesome, 368 00:17:10.440 --> 00:17:14.920 but it's not walls around value and money. And when 369 00:17:14.960 --> 00:17:17.240 you think about your value and your money being trapped 370 00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:20.279 in a network that you can't get access to because 371 00:17:20.279 --> 00:17:22.720 there are walls up, that's the challenge. And when we 372 00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:26.440 think about vertical integration, and we think about sentualization, we 373 00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:30.960 see that that is potentially the ultimate, the ultimate crime 374 00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:34.799 that will happen, right crime in a very existential way, 375 00:17:35.160 --> 00:17:37.359 because what we have right now is the ability to 376 00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:41.640 move seamlessly throughout not just on Stellar, but also like 377 00:17:41.720 --> 00:17:44.440 Stellar with bridging to to other networks. You have the 378 00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:46.440 ability to go and go to the networks that most 379 00:17:46.519 --> 00:17:48.960 suit you based on the things that are beneficial to you. 380 00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:52.880 When they're open networks, there's no shareholder demand to say, well, wait, 381 00:17:53.400 --> 00:17:55.920 we need to like put up toll booths to create 382 00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:00.359 like more growth for the shareholders and to charge different 383 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:03.000 layers of it. You also aren't trying to track you 384 00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:07.440 into one network, which is what happens potentially, you know, 385 00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:10.079 with the wrong incentives. And so we have to be 386 00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:13.640 very mindful of making sure that we have blockchain rails. 387 00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:17.000 Stay open, stay open, stay interoperable. You have to build 388 00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:20.000 standards around this. We have to be very focused around 389 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:23.359 this network layer. So think about the Internet. The Internet 390 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:26.359 is open, and it's the layer that everyone can build 391 00:18:26.359 --> 00:18:29.319 on top of. The Networks should be open and should 392 00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:31.279 be the layer that everyone can build on top of. 393 00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:33.079 So that's the goal and That's why I read that, 394 00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:34.759 because I just saw so much of this happen back 395 00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:35.759 in the early days of the web. 396 00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:38.960 Oh yeah, I mean obviously you were previously to Coo 397 00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:42.799 at Mozilla, so this is you have the pedigree here. 398 00:18:43.400 --> 00:18:46.480 So I love your piece because I think it's a 399 00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:48.519 good reminder and to make sure we know, like you said, 400 00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:51.359 repeat the mistakes of the past. But what do you 401 00:18:51.400 --> 00:18:53.880