Speaker 1: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 1: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
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Speaker 1: killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 1: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 2: Good Evening.
Speaker 3: It's a case that has stump generations of detectives and
Speaker 3: Internet sleuths. On September sixteenth, two thousand and nine, twenty
Speaker 3: four year old Matrise Richardson was arrested at an Oceanside
Speaker 3: Malibu restaurant and taken to Malibu Lost Hills Sheriff's station
Speaker 3: with no money, no phone, and no ride, and in
Speaker 3: the midst of what was later described by law enforcement
Speaker 3: as a severe bipolar episode. Richardson was released by the
Speaker 3: Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department just after midnight and disappeared
Speaker 3: into the night. Her whereabouts confounded authorities for nearly a
Speaker 3: year until her skeletonized and partially mummified remains were found
Speaker 3: on August ninth, twenty ten, up Rugged Dark Canyon, some
Speaker 3: six miles away from the station. There was no sign
Speaker 3: of trauma to Matrise's remains, and the coroner could not
Speaker 3: determine the cause of death, but Matrese's death was undoubtedly suspicious.
Speaker 3: Her bra belt and jeanes were found some distance from
Speaker 3: her body. The rest of her clothing was never found,
Speaker 3: and investigators never recovered a tiny bone called the hyoid,
Speaker 3: which often breaks when a person is strangled. A tenacious
Speaker 3: reporter and gifted storyteller, Dana Goodyear spent the past five
Speaker 3: years on the case, leading her and her co reporter
Speaker 3: Hailey Fox to the secluded, tight knit mountain community of
Speaker 3: Montonito where Matrese was last seen. Driven by conversations with
Speaker 3: Richardson's grieving friends and family, and undeterred by the scant
Speaker 3: clues that have been picked through by dozens of previous
Speaker 3: investigations lost Hills, dark Canyon probes where others have not,
Speaker 3: including Richardson's never before seen personal journals, new eyewitness interviews,
Speaker 3: and new potential forensic evidence. In twelve gripping episodes, Goodyear
Speaker 3: painstakingly builds a case that Matrise's death involved foul play,
Speaker 3: and she identifies a potential suspect. The true crime podcast
Speaker 3: that we were featuring this evening is Lost Hills Dark
Speaker 3: Canyon Season four with my special guest journalist, author, writer,
Speaker 3: and host of the Lost Hills podcast, Dana Goodyear. Welcome
Speaker 3: to the program, and thank you very much for this interview.
Speaker 3: Dana Goodyear.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your interest in for having
Speaker 2: me on.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much. Now, before I have you, take
Speaker 3: us back to September sixteenth, two thousand and nine and
Speaker 3: Matrese Richardson and Jeoffrey's restaurant and why police were called
Speaker 3: in the first place. Tell us how and why you
Speaker 3: came to be involved with this case and this story.
Speaker 2: Well, I heard about my Teresa's disappearance when it happened.
Speaker 2: I was living in Los Angeles, and I read about
Speaker 2: it with horror and just kind of bafflement. Like so
Speaker 2: many other people, I did not imagine that her story
Speaker 2: would come to consume my life in the way that
Speaker 2: it did many many years later. At the time, I
Speaker 2: was writing for The New Yorker full time, and I
Speaker 2: was writing poetry, and I had deep interest in crime
Speaker 2: stories and true crime stories, but I hadn't yet become
Speaker 2: a teller of them, and I don't think podcasts existed.
Speaker 2: So the way that I got involved with my Teresa's
Speaker 2: story is that in twenty eighteen, I started investigating a
Speaker 2: story in Malibu, a horrible story of a young father
Speaker 2: who was camping with his two year old and four
Speaker 2: year old daughters in Malibu Creek State Park and he
Speaker 2: was inexplicably shot in the head at four in the morning,
Speaker 2: and there were no suspects initially, and there was a
Speaker 2: great outcry in Malibui, and it was obviously a terrible tragedy.
Speaker 2: And as I began to learn more about that story
Speaker 2: and report it out and learn that there had been
Speaker 2: many incidents of shootings that had been happening in and
Speaker 2: around that campground and in Malibu Canyon, which runs alongside
Speaker 2: one side of the campground, that hadn't been reported to
Speaker 2: the public, I started hearing from people in the community
Speaker 2: that they've thought there could be a connection to my
Speaker 2: Teres Richardson because her case, her disappearance in two thousand
Speaker 2: and nine and the discovery of her remains in twenty ten,
Speaker 2: had left people very unsatisfied. They had no answers as
Speaker 2: to what had really happened to her, and the story
Speaker 2: that law enforcement put out there also really didn't make sense.
Speaker 2: In the same way that there were many problems with
Speaker 2: the story of the shooting in Malibu Creek State Park,
Speaker 2: so people started to wonder, you know, could the same
Speaker 2: person who killed this father in the campground, Tristan Boudett,
Speaker 2: have harmed you or she have harmed my Trees? And
Speaker 2: that did not turn out to be the case, as
Speaker 2: my reporting would show. But that was initially how I
Speaker 2: started reporting on my Trees. I was really reporting on
Speaker 2: a different murder, and everywhere I went people wanted to
Speaker 2: talk about my race Richardson. So it took years of
Speaker 2: developing sources in Malibu to feel that I could do
Speaker 2: justice to her story and bring something new to her
Speaker 2: story because it's been told many times before. But there's
Speaker 2: a kind of built in limitation to a lot of
Speaker 2: the other reporting, which is that they just couldn't progress
Speaker 2: beyond what the law enforcement had said, even though that
Speaker 2: clearly was unsatisfactory. And I just got extremely lucky in
Speaker 2: being able to with my reporting partner, who was also
Speaker 2: a senior producer on the show, Hayley Fox, unpeel some
Speaker 2: of those layers and go with the story.
Speaker 3: For those that don't know this story, can you give
Speaker 3: us the basic outline of that September sixteen, two thousand
Speaker 3: and nine, and Matrise Richardson is at a high end
Speaker 3: or better lack of term, the celebrity type restaurant. Tell
Speaker 3: us what happens.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, Jeoffrey's of Malibu is this kind of celebrity
Speaker 2: clubhouse type of place on Pacific Coast Highway. It's very beautiful.
Speaker 2: There are you know, those kind of fairy lights hanging
Speaker 2: from the trees. It's very lush. There's plants everywhere. You're
Speaker 2: sort of hanging off the side of the cliff overlooking
Speaker 2: the Pacific Ocean, and it's a very romantic spot and
Speaker 2: it's been around forever and it has this devoted clientele
Speaker 2: of locals and some of them celebrities and tourists. And
Speaker 2: nobody really knows why my trees showed up there that night,
Speaker 2: but she did. And she wasn't from Malibu. She loved
Speaker 2: the ocean and she loved to drive by the ocean.
Speaker 2: So some people in her the circle of her friends
Speaker 2: and family, speculated that maybe she was just taking a
Speaker 2: drive by the ocean. And she told law enforcement later
Speaker 2: that night that she responded to those lights that she
Speaker 2: saw outside the restaurant, and so she pulled in and
Speaker 2: my trace was twenty four years old, very beautiful, very charming,
Speaker 2: very delightful human being from everything I've ever heard about her,
Speaker 2: a black woman who was a recent graduate of cal
Speaker 2: State Fullerton and was on her way to She was
Speaker 2: in the process of applying to graduate school for clinical psychology,
Speaker 2: so she wanted to become a psychologist. And she showed
Speaker 2: up at Jeffreys and she was by herself, and she
Speaker 2: was acting strange, but not in a threatening way at all.
Speaker 2: She went and sat down with a large party of people,
Speaker 2: was chatting with them and saying some kind of a
Speaker 2: little bit off the wall things that they didn't really understand,
Speaker 2: but they didn't mind her sitting there because she was
Speaker 2: pretty entertaining. And then she ordered dinner and ended up
Speaker 2: leaving the restaurant without paying her bill. So the staffit
Speaker 2: Jeoffrey's called basically called nine one one, saying we don't
Speaker 2: really know what to do. We're a little concerned about her.
Speaker 2: We don't know she's been saying some strange things and
Speaker 2: acting a little strange, and we don't know if she's okay.
Speaker 2: So can you help us out? And so deputies from
Speaker 2: Lost Hill Station, which is the Los Angeles County Sheriff's
Speaker 2: Department's station that's out there and covers Malibu and Calabasas
Speaker 2: and some other communities. Those deputies responded and they decided
Speaker 2: to give her a field sobriety test, and she passed.
Speaker 2: She wasn't drunk. It turned out they did find some
Speaker 2: marijuana in her car, which at that point was illegal.
Speaker 2: Was less than announce but it was not legal at
Speaker 2: that point. That's a misdemeanor at that point. And then
Speaker 2: they just felt like something was off about her and
Speaker 2: they said to the again to the Jeoffrey staff, you know,
Speaker 2: if you want us to take her with us, we
Speaker 2: have to execute a citizens arrest for you. And so
Speaker 2: they did that, and so she was charged with the
Speaker 2: marijuana misdemeanor, but also with another misdemeanor, which was quote
Speaker 2: unquote defrauding an innkeeper for the failure to pay the bill.
Speaker 2: And they took her to Lost Hills station, which is
Speaker 2: pretty far distance actually from Jeoffrey's. So you have to
Speaker 2: drive all the way through Malibu Canyon and over basically
Speaker 2: to where the one O one Highway is for Californians.
Speaker 2: So I want to let you jump in if you
Speaker 2: have more questions and I can tell you next what
Speaker 2: happened when she was at the station.
Speaker 3: Let's find out what happens at the station. But we
Speaker 3: skipped over that. The restaurant really just wants this bill
Speaker 3: to be paid, and so Matrise contacts someone about that
Speaker 3: bill that night.
Speaker 2: Well, she did try calling her great grandmother, who she
Speaker 2: sort of on in love she lived with. You know,
Speaker 2: she technically lived with her great grandmother at that point,
Speaker 2: but she was kind of a free spirit who had
Speaker 2: a lot of friends and a lot of girlfriends. She
Speaker 2: was gay, and she would sleep in different places and
Speaker 2: she was actually, it turned out, sleeping in her car
Speaker 2: a lot at that point too. But they called her
Speaker 2: great grandmother and said, you know, can you come out
Speaker 2: and pay her bill? And her great grandmother was ninety
Speaker 2: one years old and said, I can't come to Balibu
Speaker 2: and they wouldn't accept They had a policy apparently of
Speaker 2: not accepting a credit card over the phone, and they
Speaker 2: said she would have to fax it, and she didn't
Speaker 2: have a fax machine. So there were a lot of
Speaker 2: to resolving the issue, you know. According to my Teresa's dad,
Speaker 2: one of the most painful ironies of this moment is
Speaker 2: that he later discovered that not only was her wallet
Speaker 2: in her car, but he said there was a bank
Speaker 2: card linked to an account with thousands of dollars in it.
Speaker 2: So it wasn't that she couldn't pay, It's just that, well,
Speaker 2: she didn't have the presence of mind right then to
Speaker 2: be able to execute that payment, and so they took
Speaker 2: it to the station.
Speaker 3: Now they take her to the station, tell us about
Speaker 3: the phone call with her mother and police.
Speaker 2: So during the time while deputies were talking to various
Speaker 2: people at the restaurant and doing the field so varriety
Speaker 2: test and searching my Teresa's car, the conversation among her
Speaker 2: family members was happening, and so her mother found out
Speaker 2: that she had been I was on her way to
Speaker 2: the station, and while she was in transit, she had
Speaker 2: a conversation with the deputy who answered the phone at
Speaker 2: Lost Hill station about saying basically, look, if you're gonna
Speaker 2: keep her overnight, I won't come out there. She lived
Speaker 2: about an hour away and she had a ten or
Speaker 2: eleven year old daughter at home, my Terce's little half sister.
Speaker 2: I'd really rather just come in the morning. If you're
Speaker 2: going to keep her all night, I don't need to
Speaker 2: go out there and sit there in the lobby waiting
Speaker 2: for her to be released. But if you're going to
Speaker 2: release her, i'd love you know, I don't want her
Speaker 2: wandering around. She doesn't know the area and she doesn't
Speaker 2: have friends out there, and she I'm paraphrasing, but that
Speaker 2: could be dangerous. And she actually said something that's so
Speaker 2: haunting to hear. She said, I'd hate to wake up
Speaker 2: in the morning and hear the report girl found somewhere
Speaker 2: with her head chopped off.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: And the deputy reassured her, you know, no, no, you know,
Speaker 2: she'll be fine, She'll be safe here. And then in
Speaker 2: the event that she was taken to the station, she
Speaker 2: was given all the live scan, background check, checked for
Speaker 2: outstanding warrants, all the things that happened when you were
Speaker 2: hard booked. And then at a little past midnight, she
Speaker 2: was told by the jailer that she was free to go.
Speaker 2: And that is technically, you know, the legal obligation of
Speaker 2: law enforcement. You know, otherwise there could have been a
Speaker 2: claim of over detention. But it's very unfortunate that someone
Speaker 2: there at this very small station where there were not
Speaker 2: very many other people in custody, that night didn't think
Speaker 2: to call her mother back and say, actually, we are
Speaker 2: going to release her. So the other thing that happened
Speaker 2: was that my Teresa's phone had been impounded in her car,
Speaker 2: which was all the way back near Pacific Coast Highway,
Speaker 2: you know, about twelve miles from the station, and she
Speaker 2: had no ride, so she didn't have money to pay
Speaker 2: for a cab, she didn't have a phone to call
Speaker 2: a friend or to be tracked by anyone, and she
Speaker 2: left the station. She left Lost Hill Station around twelve
Speaker 2: twenty five am, and nobody knows how she got from
Speaker 2: there to where she was next scene at six point
Speaker 2: thirty approximately the next morning. But that six thirty am
Speaker 2: citing the next morning was for a long time the
Speaker 2: kind of the last known sighting of her.
Speaker 3: Her mother calls back at you, say, after five am,
Speaker 3: expecting that she thought she had some agreement with the
Speaker 3: police in that they would keep her in custody till
Speaker 3: she got there in the morning. So incredibly, in this
Speaker 3: podcast you have the interview, the conversation with the police
Speaker 3: again and then later the missing trying to file a
Speaker 3: missing person's report on behalf of her daughter.
Speaker 2: Incredible, Well, lucky for US. A lot of these calls
Speaker 2: were published on the internet because there was so much
Speaker 2: outrage nationwide, but especially in California. I would think about
Speaker 2: how she was released and whether this was a safe
Speaker 2: for ethical, forget legal. It was a legal release, but
Speaker 2: was it the right thing to do? I don't think
Speaker 2: anyone would argue that. At this point, my Teresa's mother,
Speaker 2: Latis Sutton, finds out that her daughter has been released,
Speaker 2: and she's she's terrified. And then, as it happened, the
Speaker 2: place where my Terce was seen at six point thirty
Speaker 2: in the morning is this small community of Montanito, which
Speaker 2: is kind of halfway back to approximately where my Teresa's
Speaker 2: car was, so you could sort of imagine maybe she
Speaker 2: was maybe she walked back there, or maybe someone gave
Speaker 2: her a ride, somebody who's never come forward. We really
Speaker 2: don't know how she got to Montanito. She had six
Speaker 2: hours to walk about six miles, so it is possible,
Speaker 2: of course, that she did it on foot, but her
Speaker 2: mother felt that that was very unlikely, just given her
Speaker 2: her general habits. I guess should we say now what
Speaker 2: was becoming a parent to people in her in law
Speaker 2: enforcement and her family were starting to talk about the
Speaker 2: fact that my Truce was not well mentally and she
Speaker 2: had gone to Jeoffrey's in the midst of what would
Speaker 2: later be described as a bipolar episode. But she had
Speaker 2: a not very well documented history of mental illness, and
Speaker 2: she herself was concerned about her own mental well being.
Speaker 2: But there was a big effort on part of the
Speaker 2: Sheriff's department initially to downplay any indications that my Trece
Speaker 2: was mentally ill at the time, because that would have
Speaker 2: put their decision to release her in such a fashion
Speaker 2: and even worse a worse light, and that could have
Speaker 2: been illegal potentially, I think. So they chose not to
Speaker 2: put her on a psychiatric hold. So they were then
Speaker 2: sort of at pains to say, oh, no, she was.
Speaker 2: She seemed really fine, you know, there was nothing wrong
Speaker 2: with her. But it did come out that she was
Speaker 2: not fine at all, and she had not slept or
Speaker 2: eaten really for days leading up to this episode at Jeffrey's,
Speaker 2: and her odd conversations that she was having were kind
Speaker 2: of part of this breakdown that she was in the
Speaker 2: in the middle of. But in any case, so my
Speaker 2: Trees could potentially have walked to Montanito and she was
Speaker 2: seen in a backyard there around six point thirty in
Speaker 2: the morning, and the owners of the home where she
Speaker 2: was actually called law enforcement. They called the sheriff's department
Speaker 2: and they said, there's a prowler. And so when my
Speaker 2: Teresa's mother called the station back and learned that her
Speaker 2: daughter was no longer there, somebody figured out, oh, wait
Speaker 2: a minute, we got a report of someone who sort
Speaker 2: of sounds like the description of my teres Richardson. And
Speaker 2: they told her, They told Latis, oh, your your daughter go,
Speaker 2: you know, we think she's a Montanito. She's over there,
Speaker 2: probably with some friends or something like that. And so
Speaker 2: that seemed absolutely unbelievable to Latisse Sutton, my Teresa's mother.
Speaker 2: She did not have friends in Montanito. But that's basically
Speaker 2: you know. Her next move was to file a missing
Speaker 2: person's report and try to start putting some pressure on
Speaker 2: law enforcement to find her daughter.
Speaker 3: La Teresus has an opportunity to stop to hear these messages.
Speaker 3: Now you were talking about Latis putting some pressure on
Speaker 3: police to find out out more about the disappearance of
Speaker 3: her daughter. Tell us how she does that.
Speaker 2: So she actually had to go to LAPD because my
Speaker 2: Race was a resident of the city of la And
Speaker 2: that's how missing person's cases are conducted. They're conducted by
Speaker 2: the law enforcement agency in the area where the missing
Speaker 2: person lives. So LAPD collaborated with the Sheriff's department because
Speaker 2: they didn't really know much about rural Malibu and this area.
Speaker 2: You've got a picture. This is not you know, ocean
Speaker 2: front Malibu. This is in the heart of the Santa
Speaker 2: Monica Mountains. It's incredibly rural. There are mountain lions. Montanito
Speaker 2: is dark sky community, so there are not even street
Speaker 2: lights out there, and it's actually really easy to get
Speaker 2: lost in a place like that. And so the Lost
Speaker 2: Hi Station has a well known search and rescue group
Speaker 2: and they started to conduct the searches. And they went
Speaker 2: first to that house in Montanito where my Trees had
Speaker 2: last been seen, and they found her footsteps and going
Speaker 2: down into the backyard of the couple who had called
Speaker 2: law enforcement saying there was a prowler, and going out
Speaker 2: to the front of the house and then the footprints.
Speaker 2: They couldn't find any other footprints near there, but they
Speaker 2: brought in some dogs and the dogs sniffed my Trees's
Speaker 2: scent and it led them to the house next door.
Speaker 2: They searched that house. There was no sign of her there,
Speaker 2: and they really didn't know. At first. They were assuming
Speaker 2: that they were looking for somebody who was lost, who
Speaker 2: might be seeking help, who might be going house to house,
Speaker 2: who might be hungry, thirsty, or they didn't didn't really know.
Speaker 2: But then the information started to come from my Teresa's
Speaker 2: family and some of her friends that actually, maybe she
Speaker 2: wasn't in her right mental state. She was in some
Speaker 2: kind of elevated state. She was not acting like herself basically.
Speaker 2: So eventually law enforcement really started looking for a suicide.
Speaker 2: They were looking at the bottom of cliffs for thinking
Speaker 2: maybe she had jumped. They started to really conceive of
Speaker 2: this case quite differently as a disappearance due to a suicide.
Speaker 2: And eleven months passed, and then one day, a group
Speaker 2: of rangers who were searching for a marijuana grow, because
Speaker 2: that's another thing that happens out in these rural Santa
Speaker 2: Monica mountains, especially back then, there were some very large
Speaker 2: marijuana operations. There were also some smaller, kind of more
Speaker 2: cottage industry type of operations, but they had these rangers
Speaker 2: had disrupted a grow a year earlier, before my race
Speaker 2: would have been there, and they went back to check
Speaker 2: whether the people respond operating the grow had started up again,
Speaker 2: and they found her remains. And what they found was
Speaker 2: kind of in a sense where my starting point is
Speaker 2: as a reporter and Haley Fox and I just talked
Speaker 2: endlessly about this scenario that I'm about to describe to you.
Speaker 2: So my Terce's remains were skeletonized. There almost a complete skeleton,
Speaker 2: but naked. Her jeans and her belt and her bra
Speaker 2: were found separate from her body. The belt was off,
Speaker 2: the jeans, her shirt, her underwear if she was wearing them,
Speaker 2: her shoes, those items were never found, and my traces
Speaker 2: remains were also partially mummified, which led to a lot
Speaker 2: of different speculation about, you know, where she had died
Speaker 2: and what had happened to her. But basically, at that
Speaker 2: point it became a coroner's case.
Speaker 3: And.
Speaker 2: It turns into I said that there's a lot of
Speaker 2: you know, different agencies involved, and a lot of kind
Speaker 2: of overlaps. So at that point it becomes a Sheriff's
Speaker 2: department homicide case because now the body has been found
Speaker 2: and it's in the Sheriff's department's jurisdiction and a corner case,
Speaker 2: and there's a big dispute between the corner and the
Speaker 2: sheriff's department, which I can get into if you're interested.
Speaker 2: But the bottom line was we talked to the a
Speaker 2: forensic pathologist who conducted the autopsy and she said there
Speaker 2: was no evidence of trauma on the bones, so they
Speaker 2: could not classify this as a homicide. It was an
Speaker 2: undetermined cause of death. It was not obviously it wasn't.
Speaker 2: There was nothing to indicate a suicide. There was nothing
Speaker 2: to prove that it was a natural cause. That there
Speaker 2: are natural causes. There was not enough soft tissue to
Speaker 2: do any kind of rape kit or sexual assault assessment.
Speaker 2: There was not enough soft tissue to do a thorough toxicology.
Speaker 2: You know, they really couldn't determine anything. They didn't know
Speaker 2: if it was an overdose, as suicide, of death from exposure,
Speaker 2: a death from snake bite, or a homicide. But if
Speaker 2: it was a homicide, it was one that didn't leave
Speaker 2: any marks on the remains that were found. And that
Speaker 2: was just you know, that was the place that basically
Speaker 2: the story got left by law enforcement, which is they said, well,
Speaker 2: everything we've come to learn about her suggests that she
Speaker 2: was in the midst of a mental health crisis and
Speaker 2: wandered up into this canyon and died. And Haley and
Speaker 2: I just could not believe that that she had taken
Speaker 2: off her own clothes and just sat down and willed
Speaker 2: herself to death. And meanwhile, where were the rest of
Speaker 2: her clothes?
Speaker 3: Now, tell us about the person that you spoke to,
Speaker 3: the Karen Smith and the person that reported seeing her
Speaker 3: at six thirty am outside her home and speaking with her.
Speaker 3: So tell us about that interview and this person you
Speaker 3: title lifelong Montanito.
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, the Montnito lifer. Well, one thing that we
Speaker 2: learned was that there was a There was the Karen
Speaker 2: Smith story, which at Karen Smith lived at the house
Speaker 2: where my terce was seen at six point thirty in
Speaker 2: the morning in Montanito. It's sort of known in the
Speaker 2: neighborhood as the Tennis court House because there aren't a
Speaker 2: lot of tennis sports, but they've got wine. And Karen
Speaker 2: Smith had she and her husband called law enforcement about
Speaker 2: seeing my trees in the backyard. Her story was very simple.
Speaker 2: It was just she woke up, she saw this woman
Speaker 2: in the backyard. She called down, do you need any help?
Speaker 2: The woman, who everybody understands to be my trees responded, no,
Speaker 2: I'm just resting. And then by the time she looked
Speaker 2: out the window again, my trees was gone. And the
Speaker 2: footprints that were found there were vans shoeprints in the
Speaker 2: size that my trees wore, and she was wearing vans
Speaker 2: that night, And basically they were seen running around to
Speaker 2: the side to the front of the house and then
Speaker 2: those those no more Vans footprints were seen near the
Speaker 2: Tennis Court house. So that was Karen Smith's story, simple
Speaker 2: and very basic. Now later, this is two thousand and
Speaker 2: nine September two thousand and nine when Karen Smith tells
Speaker 2: that story. Several years later, somebody else told a different
Speaker 2: story about seeing my terse at around four thirty in
Speaker 2: the morning. And this person, who I called the Mantanitle Lifer,
Speaker 2: he said that she was in an altercation with somebody
Speaker 2: possibly inside the house, and that she was very upset
Speaker 2: and she was yelling in front of the house. And
Speaker 2: that story created a kind of problem in the narrative.
Speaker 2: So did was she outside the house at four thirty
Speaker 2: am having an altercation or was she in the backyard
Speaker 2: at six thirty am, having just you know, taken a
Speaker 2: little rest, and Karen Smith said she didn't know anything
Speaker 2: about shouting at four thirty in the morning, and so
Speaker 2: there was a problem with this timeline, and that also
Speaker 2: became central to our inquiry and our basically our resolution
Speaker 2: that we brought this case to because we think that
Speaker 2: we know who harmed my trace.
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Speaker 3: five percent off. Now how do you continue? This podcast
Speaker 3: series has a numerous interviews, So the information you get
Speaker 3: from Karen Smith and then from the lifer, as you say,
Speaker 3: what does that lead you to do next? And who
Speaker 3: do you want to speak with specifically?
Speaker 2: Well, we needed to figure out who this lifer was
Speaker 2: and why he was incredible and why he told this story.
Speaker 2: And one of the things that was a great benefit
Speaker 2: of having been reporting in Malibu for so many years
Speaker 2: already at this point was that I had established some
Speaker 2: trust with, in particular a sergeant in Malibu who worked
Speaker 2: for Search and Rescue and I he was deeply involved
Speaker 2: in the Malibu Creek State Park case, and season one
Speaker 2: of the podcasts was about his efforts to solve that case.
Speaker 2: In part, it was also about the way in which
Speaker 2: he was stymied and blocked by his own law enforcement
Speaker 2: organization from solving it. But in the end he did
Speaker 2: with a lot of help from a lot of other
Speaker 2: people too. But he had played an instrumental role, and
Speaker 2: we kept in touch, and I knew that the Mitrit's
Speaker 2: case really bothered him, and he had conducted many of
Speaker 2: the searches because he was the person in charge of
Speaker 2: the search and rescue team, and he cared deeply about
Speaker 2: the case, and he was really troubled that they hadn't
Speaker 2: been able to solve it. So he retired, and by
Speaker 2: the time I had all these conversations with him, he
Speaker 2: was retired. And he eventually told me a piece of
Speaker 2: information that would open up the entire story for him
Speaker 2: alien me, and that was that there had been a
Speaker 2: person of interest that the Sheriff's department looked at. So
Speaker 2: when we got that information, we learned everything we possibly
Speaker 2: could about that person, and quite a lot that law
Speaker 2: enforcement never found out because people were willing to talk
Speaker 2: to us all these years later. Who you know, maybe
Speaker 2: law enforcement had never contacted or maybe they hadn't said
Speaker 2: certain things of law enforcement that they said to us.
Speaker 2: I don't really I don't really know, but we were
Speaker 2: able to develop I think, a very compelling case for
Speaker 2: this person's involvement.
Speaker 3: Tell us about that investigation and where the investigation seemed
Speaker 3: to end for police.
Speaker 2: Well, it was strange because there were rumors in Montanito.
Speaker 2: As soon as my truce went missing about this individual
Speaker 2: who might have been involved. Somebody tippedlaw enforcement and said,
Speaker 2: go check this guy out, and they did do ay,
Speaker 2: they checked the place that he lived and there was
Speaker 2: there was actually a rumor that that there might be
Speaker 2: some there might be human remains. So that this was
Speaker 2: before my Teruce's remains were found. During the eleven months
Speaker 2: when they were searching for her, and Malibu Search and
Speaker 2: Rescue was pursuing all kinds of leads at that point.
Speaker 2: You know, all the time, people were saying that they'd
Speaker 2: seen her, or they saw human remains, or they saw
Speaker 2: a blood stain, and you know, so they were chasing
Speaker 2: down everything because everybody wanted to find out where she was,
Speaker 2: and so this was during that time when before there
Speaker 2: human remains found. They went to see if there were
Speaker 2: in fact human remains at this at the place where
Speaker 2: this person moved, and they determined nope, those aren't human remains,
Speaker 2: and therefore that person kind of became was like got
Speaker 2: checked off the list in a sense. And then the
Speaker 2: rubers about this person persisted, and eventually they surfaced again
Speaker 2: and he was actually questioned and the law enforcement this
Speaker 2: is now the Homicide Bureau of the Sheriff's Department, not
Speaker 2: the search and rescue people, the homicide detectives. They believed
Speaker 2: his story. And that's one of the things that I
Speaker 2: find the most unbelievable about this whole entire narrative is
Speaker 2: that somehow they took the word of someone who had
Speaker 2: a history of violence against women, who had a history
Speaker 2: of violence against law enforcement, who had a history of
Speaker 2: drug use, had been to prison for attacking women, and
Speaker 2: they took his word.
Speaker 3: Wasn't, though, to be fair with police, wasn't he administered
Speaker 3: a polygraph exam and passed with flying colors.
Speaker 2: Apparently, well that is what we heard, but polygraph, you know,
Speaker 2: that's not even It's basically an investigative tool, it's not determinative.
Speaker 2: Usually the way law enforcement will use a polygraph is
Speaker 2: to determine whether they should take a closer look at someone.
Speaker 2: This person, from everything I've been able to learn, they
Speaker 2: had already sort of said no, we already looked at
Speaker 2: him and didn't turn out to be human remains where
Speaker 2: he was living, so therefore he couldn't have done this,
Speaker 2: which you know, to me, that just doesn't make sense,
Speaker 2: but they It's my big question to the Sheriff's department
Speaker 2: is why did you let him go? And how could
Speaker 2: you be so sure when there was so much to suggest,
Speaker 2: so much circumstantial evidence to suggest that he was involved.
Speaker 2: Why would you let him walk? But they've never answered
Speaker 2: that question. And Haley and I discovered quite a bit
Speaker 2: of additional circumstantial evidence and have tried to present it
Speaker 2: to the Sheriff's department repeatedly, and they don't seem interested.
Speaker 2: And we even found what could be direct forensic evidence
Speaker 2: that we don't have the resources to analyze fully and
Speaker 2: say whether or not there's a direct connection between my
Speaker 2: trees and this person and this location. Sheriff's department has
Speaker 2: those resources, but they won't even call us back.
Speaker 3: You talked about violence to women, that's one thing, but
Speaker 3: this is more specific in terms of examples of parallels
Speaker 3: with his violence with these women, because you talked to
Speaker 3: witnesses that talk about his romance with this woman named Darien,
Speaker 3: and he goes and does three years in prison for
Speaker 3: assaulting her. But other women that were specifically threatened with
Speaker 3: their life.
Speaker 2: We talked to somebody that he strangled and she thought
Speaker 2: she was going to die. He had her on the
Speaker 2: ground to her, strangling her, punching her, and she thought
Speaker 2: she was going to die. And the interesting thing about
Speaker 2: my Terrace's remains, I said, it was a nearly intact
Speaker 2: human skeleton, but there were a few bones missing. And
Speaker 2: one of the missing bones is the hyoid bone, which
Speaker 2: is a three part floating bone in the larynx that
Speaker 2: is often broken when somebody is strangled. Now, strangulation can
Speaker 2: be a very hard, very hard to prove forensically, but
Speaker 2: one clear sign of it is when the hyoid is broken,
Speaker 2: you can be strangled, and the hyoid doesn't break, you
Speaker 2: can be you know, there's not too many other good
Speaker 2: reasons for the hyoid to break, but it is a
Speaker 2: very small, very light composite bone, and that was never found. Now,
Speaker 2: I'm not suggesting that a killer would have been that
Speaker 2: this person who I think harmed my trees, would have
Speaker 2: been clever enough to or skilled enough to remove the
Speaker 2: highwoid bone if it was broken. I just think it's
Speaker 2: another terrible coincidence in this case that that bone is missing.
Speaker 2: But look, they could have they could have had that knowledge.
Speaker 2: But what we do know is that this person had
Speaker 2: a history of violence against women, of going to prison
Speaker 2: for violence against women, and of strangling women.
Speaker 3: You also talk about the kinds of drugs and the
Speaker 3: particular drug that seemed very interesting to me given his
Speaker 3: strange behavior as witnessed by even his own friends, especially
Speaker 3: near the end. Near the end, is that he was
Speaker 3: a user of PCP among other drugs, and also explained
Speaker 3: the proximity and the role of the grow up in
Speaker 3: this story and his fort that he had built.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So well, this this person had a long standing
Speaker 2: relationship with drugs and starting in his teenage years, from
Speaker 2: many conversations with his friends and the social history that
Speaker 2: Haley and I were able to build around him, understanding
Speaker 2: who he was so PCP starting in the seventies at
Speaker 2: least in the seventies and then you know, by his
Speaker 2: later years and we're talking this period of time two
Speaker 2: thousand and nine, ten, eleven, twelve, heavy Matthews. But he
Speaker 2: was a heavy, heavy drinker his whole life, many DUIs
Speaker 2: and you know, many experiences attacking law enforcement. Even so,
Speaker 2: he had a very troubled past. I would say he
Speaker 2: had come back to Montanito after being released from prison
Speaker 2: for the incident that you mentioned where he was incarcerated
Speaker 2: for his assault of his then girlfriend. He came back
Speaker 2: to his home community of Montanito, and he was kind
Speaker 2: of CouchSurfing with with loyal friends, but he also built
Speaker 2: himself a kind of off the grid bort and just
Speaker 2: you know, about a mile up the road above Montenito
Speaker 2: into the mountains, just off the just off the road,
Speaker 2: the brush is so dense that you just go five
Speaker 2: feet off the road and you're in the middle of nowhere.
Speaker 2: So he had a spot there that he liked to
Speaker 2: hang out. And then not very far from there, over
Speaker 2: the other side of the road and you know, crossed
Speaker 2: some private property and then plunged down into a place
Speaker 2: called Dark Canyon, and that's where there was there were
Speaker 2: some big grow operations apparently that the rangers were checking on.
Speaker 2: But it's also a place where this guy had since
Speaker 2: the seventies, since he was a young man, had been
Speaker 2: growing marijuana. So this area of Dark Canyon, it's a
Speaker 2: slot canyon. It's very very difficult to access unless you
Speaker 2: know the right little trail. This guy did, and he
Speaker 2: tried to take a bunch of women after my Teres
Speaker 2: to show them where he grew pot and or where
Speaker 2: my Terce's remains were. So this is somebody who was
Speaker 2: basically playing tour guide about my Teres's remain spot to
Speaker 2: a lot of people. And I think that's also pretty
Speaker 2: suspicious and strange, and at a time when it's not
Speaker 2: clear to me how he would have known exactly where
Speaker 2: her remains were found. So he knew how to get
Speaker 2: in there, He had been growing pot in there. He
Speaker 2: also grew pot at his little fort. But my tries.
Speaker 2: One thing was that she actually really liked bot. That
Speaker 2: was kind of her drug of choice. So you can
Speaker 2: easily imagine a scenario where he said to her, Hey,
Speaker 2: let's even show you I have got the best plant. Come
Speaker 2: with me. Something went wrong, you know, or we don't
Speaker 2: know if he you know, we can't say for sure,
Speaker 2: like this was this intentional? Was there an accident and
Speaker 2: he was recently you know, he was on a role.
Speaker 2: There was not an easy path for him to say,
Speaker 2: you know, I didn't do it, but this young woman
Speaker 2: fell and hit her head and died while she was
Speaker 2: with me, or overdosed, or you know, he was terrified
Speaker 2: of going back to prison. Many of his friends told
Speaker 2: us that many of his friends who had really good
Speaker 2: reason to suspect him of being involved. So that's what
Speaker 2: we drew out in our story was basically all the
Speaker 2: knowledge that's been stored in the minds of these people,
Speaker 2: on the consciences of these people who knew this man,
Speaker 2: things that they didn't ever tell each other or tell
Speaker 2: law enforcement. And we drew from that and drew that
Speaker 2: out and painted a portrait that I think, even if
Speaker 2: law enforcement won't listen to us or take up what
Speaker 2: we learned and go with it and actually lay this
Speaker 2: case to rest, which they should do for my Teresa's
Speaker 2: family and my trees, even if they won't do that,
Speaker 2: we feel that we have shed light on how she
Speaker 2: came to be in that canyon.
Speaker 3: Let's jusus as an opportunity to hear these messages. Now,
Speaker 3: one of the very, very compelling things that you have
Speaker 3: discovered is that apparently Rick Forsburg, who's now deceased, by
Speaker 3: the way, is that he told somebody that he encountered
Speaker 3: Matrise or he saw Matrise that evening September sixteenth, tell
Speaker 3: us about this discovery and this witness.
Speaker 2: Well, we decided that we would talk to as many
Speaker 2: of his old friends from the neighborhood as we could,
Speaker 2: and we found a woman who had known him quite
Speaker 2: well and whose house he went to directly from Lost
Speaker 2: Hill Station after his polygraph, and she described his mannerisms,
Speaker 2: his behavior. He was sweating, he was pacing, he was
Speaker 2: running his hands through his hair, and she said he
Speaker 2: was trying to confess to her. She didn't know exactly what,
Speaker 2: but she stopped him. She didn't want to hear she
Speaker 2: didn't want to have to turn him in. And this
Speaker 2: neighborhood connection and bond goes very deep with these people.
Speaker 2: But this is back then, back in around twenty twelve.
Speaker 2: This is what she was saying. Rick stopped, telling me,
Speaker 2: stop talking, I don't want to hear it. But before
Speaker 2: she silenced him, he did manage to tell her that
Speaker 2: he had picked my trees up on his motorcycle. So
Speaker 2: that's something that he sure didn't tell law enforcement that.
Speaker 2: I can't imagine they could have let him walk if
Speaker 2: he had told them that. That, to me is a
Speaker 2: pretty good indicator that he lied in his polygraph. And
Speaker 2: once he picked her up, where did they go? Did
Speaker 2: they go to the fort? Well, we were looking for
Speaker 2: evidence at this fort that would connect to my trees.
Speaker 2: We were looking for items of hers that were never found,
Speaker 2: and we found a lot of women's underwear at that fort,
Speaker 2: and this is what we would We got some of
Speaker 2: it tested, but it's incredibly expensive to do private lab
Speaker 2: DNA testing. And this is where we're begging the Sheriff's
Speaker 2: department to pick up where we had to leave off
Speaker 2: and actually test all of this underwear. Why did he
Speaker 2: have ladies underwear in many different sizes up there? Whose
Speaker 2: belongings are these? You know, some of them we think
Speaker 2: we understand who they might belong to, but others, you know,
Speaker 2: it's all different styles and sizes, and it's you know,
Speaker 2: the idea that one of these could be my trees
Speaker 2: is that could solve this case, But we don't know.
Speaker 3: Why would you contend or why do you contend that
Speaker 3: the Sheriff's department might not be as interested as you
Speaker 3: and in finding a conclusion contrary to what they theorized
Speaker 3: many years ago.
Speaker 2: This case has been a total nightmare for them from
Speaker 2: start to finish. That they arrested her under the circumstances
Speaker 2: that they did, that they released her the way that
Speaker 2: they did, that her remains weren't found for almost a year.
Speaker 2: There are so many ways in which they would just
Speaker 2: like this to go away. I forever believe in the
Speaker 2: good intentions of people, especially people who you know whose
Speaker 2: jobs are to serve the public, like law enforcement. And
Speaker 2: I keep thinking someone wants will want to be a hero.
Speaker 2: But the detectives who investigated the case, I have no
Speaker 2: reason to think that they're anything but good, honest, earnest investigators.
Speaker 2: But they certainly stopped short of where I would have
Speaker 2: stopped if I were in their shoes. And I can't
Speaker 2: I can't really do anything else other than speculate about why,
Speaker 2: and that's not really fair to do. I can only
Speaker 2: just sort of what feels like the right thing to
Speaker 2: do is to point at look, there were things that
Speaker 2: you guys didn't know back then things you didn't find.
Speaker 2: Why they didn't go to his fort again, I have
Speaker 2: no idea, but they didn't, and this stuff was still there,
Speaker 2: and Haley and I found it and they should just
Speaker 2: take it now and someone should be a hero. But
Speaker 2: I don't know why they don't.
Speaker 3: Is it something to do with what Lisa Shinan was
Speaker 3: involved with with the second autopsy and still finding no
Speaker 3: sign of trauma? So is that a police out? Is
Speaker 3: that an out for police saying that it's still undetermined?
Speaker 2: So yeah, well, look, if this wasn't a cold case homicide,
Speaker 2: it would be different. It would be somebody's a major
Speaker 2: feather in their cap to solve it. Right, My Teresa's
Speaker 2: case is in a kind of limbo because it's not
Speaker 2: technically a homicide. So first you have to have a
Speaker 2: reason to re categorize this as a homicide, and then
Speaker 2: you have to have someone say, oh, my predecessors meant
Speaker 2: most of most of those detectives who worked on the
Speaker 2: case are retired now, if not all of them. They
Speaker 2: were great guys, but they didn't They weren't as thorough,
Speaker 2: or they weren't as determined, or they weren't as I mean,
Speaker 2: you're kind of criticizing your colleagues, and that's not very comfortable. Sometimes.
Speaker 2: I think there's a big culture of just understand, you know,
Speaker 2: protecting each other from that. Yeah, I mean I think
Speaker 2: that if they all believed, I can't say they all.
Speaker 2: Many people believed that her mental health explained her death,
Speaker 2: and this mental health episode she was in the midst
Speaker 2: of became the explanation. And what we said in many
Speaker 2: off the record conversations with law enforcement was, can't you
Speaker 2: see how her mental state, her state of mind on
Speaker 2: September seventeen, two thousand and nine, made her more vulnerable
Speaker 2: to a predator. Yes, it's not an either or It's
Speaker 2: not she was mentally ill or she was the victim
Speaker 2: of a predator. Why can't you embrace the idea that
Speaker 2: it was both.
Speaker 3: You research personally the possibility of her just wandering into
Speaker 3: this canyon and getting to where police say that she
Speaker 3: ended up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a big no way. There is no way
Speaker 2: my trees got in there by herself. She either went
Speaker 2: in there with someone who knew how to get in there,
Speaker 2: or or somebody dumped her remains there. So you cannot
Speaker 2: imagine the motivation for someone to go on these you know,
Speaker 2: there's no, there's not. We don't know the trail. Someone
Speaker 2: probably knows the trail. We don't know the trail. You
Speaker 2: can walk up a creek bed, it's filled with boulders.
Speaker 2: At one point you get to basically a sheer rock
Speaker 2: wall that you need to blay up. And she wasn't
Speaker 2: a woodsy girl, you know, according to her family. You know,
Speaker 2: she's a city girl. She's a she grew up in
Speaker 2: the suburbs mostly actually, and she was just not going
Speaker 2: to go hiking in her vans, you know, in the
Speaker 2: middle of the night and or at any time. And
Speaker 2: it just defies logic, honestly. So we tried to go
Speaker 2: in from the bottom, We tried to go in from
Speaker 2: the top, we tried to go in from the side.
Speaker 2: There's just there's there's not. Really, if you ever attempted
Speaker 2: any of these things, you would you would see there's
Speaker 2: no reason for her to go there. And she wouldn't,
Speaker 2: and she could she probably couldn't unless someone was like,
Speaker 2: you know, pushing her up over these or or helping
Speaker 2: her down the steep these deep canyon walls. It's you know,
Speaker 2: or it's just not not a walk in the park
Speaker 2: and there's no reason she would have gone.
Speaker 3: There is part of this. You believe that the police
Speaker 3: are resistant to again solve this case and say the
Speaker 3: way that you have unfolded it in that they would
Speaker 3: be even more responsible than they already received criticism for
Speaker 3: not conducting a fifty one fifty, which at least say
Speaker 3: was a possibility. People know that somebody in mental stress
Speaker 3: that fifty one to fifty would be issued. So do
Speaker 3: you believe that maybe they don't want want to be
Speaker 3: responsible liable for what they did that night? Right?
Speaker 2: Well, I see what you're saying. You know, if if
Speaker 2: she was killed, it would reinflame the public anger about
Speaker 2: their release of her. But you know what, that public
Speaker 2: anger is already very much a factor and has been.
Speaker 2: So what has happened is that they're just rampant conspiracy
Speaker 2: theories about law enforcement involvement with her death, and we didn't.
Speaker 2: We researched that angle very hard, and we did not
Speaker 2: find anything that was persuasive to us that law enforcement
Speaker 2: was involved in her death. We right found a lot
Speaker 2: to persuade us that law enforcement could have solved her
Speaker 2: death and didn't stop short of it. And maybe You're right,
Speaker 2: maybe it makes it worse in their minds, you know,
Speaker 2: the optics of it if she was killed, But everybody
Speaker 2: now thinks that she was killed and that a cop
Speaker 2: killed her. So I think that they could actually could
Speaker 2: be a redemption story.
Speaker 3: What we haven't spoken about, and this is a very
Speaker 3: incredible aspect of this podcast, and that you were able
Speaker 3: to Matresa's journals. She was a big journaler, and their
Speaker 3: journals were found in her car by police. You were
Speaker 3: able to get four of those journals from Michael Richardson,
Speaker 3: Matrese's father, and you have incorporated them in a couple
Speaker 3: of the episodes to show exactly the personality of Matrise
Speaker 3: but also her descent into mental illness.
Speaker 2: Yes, we were so fortunate that Michael trusted us with
Speaker 2: those journals and extremely grateful to him that we were
Speaker 2: the first people who had been granted access to them.
Speaker 2: And a really important part of this story for Haley
Speaker 2: and me was allowing my tries the person to come through.
Speaker 2: So often once someone becomes a victim, their identity shrinks
Speaker 2: down to just that one word, and we really wanted
Speaker 2: this wonderful human being to have a real presence in
Speaker 2: our story and the journals were the perfect way to
Speaker 2: do it. We got an actor to read her part,
Speaker 2: and I think it really I hope that it motivates
Speaker 2: people who listen to think about and feel more passionate
Speaker 2: about seeking justice for this actual young woman, my Terce Richardson.
Speaker 2: It was very evident reading the journals that she was
Speaker 2: spiraling and struggling and really suffering. And we were looking
Speaker 2: at the journals also for clues, you know, long before
Speaker 2: we had this kind of as we were building our
Speaker 2: case against this person that we I think was involved
Speaker 2: with her death, we were also looking at the possibility that,
Speaker 2: you know, something else might have happened, and the journals
Speaker 2: were a big resource for us looking for clues, but
Speaker 2: also who should we be talking to about her? Who
Speaker 2: really who knew what was going on? And it helped
Speaker 2: us piece together a lot having that insight into her life,
Speaker 2: So that was really really important for us.
Speaker 3: Tell us a little bit more about the Lost Hill
Speaker 3: podcast we discussed probably up to the latest episode, which
Speaker 3: was episode ten. Tell us about the episodes that are
Speaker 3: involved in season four, and also tell us about the
Speaker 3: who writes and hosts this and who was reported by
Speaker 3: and who is the co creator of Lost Hills.
Speaker 2: Okay, I'll tell you everything. So I co created Lost
Speaker 2: Hills with Ben Adair and we started This is the
Speaker 2: fourth season of the show. The first season was about
Speaker 2: the murder and the campground in Malibu Creek State Park,
Speaker 2: and I'm the post and I write the podcast. And
Speaker 2: this season, season four, I co reported with Haley Fox,
Speaker 2: who is also a senior producer on this season and
Speaker 2: who Hailey has worked with me on all the seasons
Speaker 2: of the show, so she is an integral part of
Speaker 2: the Lost Hills world. And it is a it is
Speaker 2: a world. Crime and law enforcement in Malibu is its
Speaker 2: own special world. And yeah, it was really great to
Speaker 2: be working with people who had that kind of history
Speaker 2: with the show. You know, had been working on it
Speaker 2: since the beginning. So there are a lot of interconnections
Speaker 2: among the different seasons, you know, Like I mentioned, Sergeant Wright,
Speaker 2: who helped us break through with season four, had been
Speaker 2: a really important part of season one. So you know,
Speaker 2: they're just it's a small world out there, but a
Speaker 2: lot of really wild stuff happens. So it turns out
Speaker 2: to be a pretty interesting beat.
Speaker 3: Right now, tell us about Lost Hills Dark Canyon. When
Speaker 3: the next episode drops.
Speaker 2: Well, our episodes come out on Mondays and Wednesdays. So
Speaker 2: if this is coming out on does this our podcast
Speaker 2: that we're doing right now comes.
Speaker 3: Out today, It comes out Monday, Come.
Speaker 2: Comes out Monday. Okay, so the next episode is coming
Speaker 2: out today, which is Monday. Well, you guys are hearing
Speaker 2: this Monday, July fifteenth, So yeah, that's when our episodes drop.
Speaker 2: But anyone who gets excited about getting to the end
Speaker 2: of it can subscribe to pushkin Plus on the Apple
Speaker 2: podcast page and you can binge the whole season ad
Speaker 2: free right now if you want to. But also I
Speaker 2: should mention that you can follow us at Lost Hills
Speaker 2: pod and you can find all the episodes on the
Speaker 2: Lost Hills show page on Apple Podcasts or wherever you
Speaker 2: get your podcasts.
Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much for coming on and talking
Speaker 3: about season four, Dark Canyon of your hit podcast, Lost Hills.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for this interview, and you have
Speaker 3: a great evening being a good Thank you.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, really appreciate you doing this and
Speaker 2: taking the time.
Speaker 3: Thank you, and have a good night, all right, take
Speaker 3: care