Speaker 1: What is up, fellow sikos. I am Dan Favalley coming
at you with Mort Jensen of the NBA Podcast and
also of Yahoo Sports, and also of Forbes, and also
of Sports Illustrated and also of First Team All. He
put a shirt on for this podcast, even though I
asked him to continue d layering when he showed up
in a tank top. So we're all very upset with more.
But as promised, this is we're moving on. We already
did the most confusing teams for us the NBA this season.
Trade season is almost upon us. More. December fifteenth is
the official unofficial start of NBA trade season because a
whole bunch of contracts that were signed over the off
season will be eligible.
Speaker 2: To be moved.
Speaker 1: So we're gonna talk about a bunch of teams that
are going to define the trade deadline. We think basically
we will begin with the East, then we will move
over until the West. This will be going up on
both feeds. It might be two episode on the NBA
podcast feed, but you won't even hear this part, probably
if he's putting it up like that. But it's gonna
be fun. A lot of teams to get to. But
first and foremost more one, how are you doing? And two?
Do you actually view the unofficial, the officially unofficial start
of trade season as a date that matters?
Speaker 2: Uh? First and foremost, I'm doing pretty well. I'm layered.
At the very least. I consider that a win for you,
so you don't have to burn your eyeballs afterwards on
YouTube what they came for, right, See, that's the thing
being on YouTube, because I will tell you this. I
don't think I've ever told Brian this necessarily, but there
was a summer day a couple of years ago where
it was just it was so hot and we did
not have cams on, where I just decided screw it,
and I recorded a two hour podcast buck Ass Naked.
I did absolutely, Yes, I did absolutely. There was look
it was it was a heat wave in Copenhagen. I'm
a I'm a big guy, as you know you've met me.
I look so so I'm I'm hot at every given
point of the year because I'm so big and so large,
but when with a heat wave, it gets unbearable. So
I just I didn't tell them. I just decided to Look,
there are no cams on, so I'm just gonna strip
my ass down and I sat there buck Ass Naggiet
talking about whatever free agency news we had at that
point in time.
Speaker 1: That's incredible. So you need to start the NBA podcast
only fans, so that's the type of content that the
people can expect behind the paywall.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, that's smart. Actually, that's more of us should
do that, just to basically branch out and only fans
for basketball. I love it. So answer your question though
you asked me a question that I forgot to answer.
I do not view the December fifteen s a you
know date, it's a date. It's not a date.
Speaker 1: We always seem to get. It matters just because what
makes building trades easier when that's part of your job.
But two, it does seem like when the rumors start
to ramp up, and that's content for all of us.
And then also, would you say it seems like we
get one at least one early trade per year. I
think last year we had two, like didn't Og and
Siakam both yet moved, And of course I don't count
the hardened thing like that was a trade demand from
the offseason that leaked into the regular season. But it
feels like one time per year at least we do
get some sort of an early trade, but I don't.
I think Bobby Marx has said this. It very rarely
is on December fifteenth on the button because that would
be wild if December fifteenth a Sunday this year. So
it's like it just happens at midnight, and it's like
these teams have been sitting on it waiting for it,
but we never get that.
Speaker 2: I would love that though. That'd be fantastic because look,
we need more transaction news because free agency has become
such a dud, and even the trade define occasionally is
a little bit off a snoozefest. I've been I've experienced
this where on the Danish podcast that I do, where
we've rented out, you know, an entire court and we've
had we've had tables and we're doing like live streams.
We have multiple cams going on and like someone who's
sitting there with ops and doing everything like equipment for
half a million Danish kroners, which is like somewhere around
one hundred thousand dollars or whatever, like big major productions,
and then we sit there for three hours and we
talk and we analyze and we answer questions, and then
we kind of look at each other at the two
hour mark and we go, yeah, not a lot has happened,
so we need something else. If we could make December
fifteenth a date in all caps, I'd be all for it.
I would love that. Just give me all the slop.
Speaker 1: Not this year now when it falls on a Saturday night. Basically, Oh, I.
Speaker 2: Don't know what a Monday or Saturday or Sunday is
a difference. Now, I'm not talking about time difference. I'm
I'm talking about the fact that I'm doing this full time. Now,
I don't have like I don't get up Monday morning
and have to go to a job. I'm working like
a Sunday might as well be a Tuesday for me.
I don't care.
Speaker 1: My point is is that if it happens at the
stroke of midnight my time on a Saturday night, that's
Dan takes an edible and winds down time. Dan works
despite what people might think. I'd we worked pretty hard.
So basically, yes, you do.
Speaker 2: Yes, I would love to see Edible Dan a podcast
that's I don't think we've had calls for that.
Speaker 1: I've mentioned like what I'm like on Edibles, No one's
asked me to record a podcast on an edible yet,
So if people want that, there you go go behind
that NBA pod only fans paywall.
Speaker 2: We need to do that we and it needs to
be trade analysis specifically where we go into like apron shit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like salary cap calculating exactly, Yes, yeah, I would
love that. Did Dan just make up a number? So
the approach to this, well begin with the East. We're
gonna do eight teams per conference. We will alter eight picks.
Is there any criteria you think needs to be laid out?
When we're kind of framing as like what are the teams,
you're just because we have we have a mix of
what we think are gonna be sellers and buyers. We
didn't skew this in that in that direction. I looked
at it as personally just teams that will do something
or most likely to do something between now and the
trade deadline that could one make a major difference to
the competitive landscape, but also two I think might then
dictate what other teams are doing or what's available out there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you just answered your own question.
Speaker 3: There.
Speaker 2: It's gonna be which teams drive the trade that line
whacking more or less like or or who could drive
that whacking. I don't care about teams that like for
for this specific podcast, I don't care about the Celtics. Like, yeah,
they they might make one trade in the margins where
they ship out a second and some dude and get
another dute in who's not going to see the floor,
doesn't it's not going to move the needle. It's not
gonna matter. We're gonna be talking.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't want to get into the Celtics. But
wouldn't it be so just fucking wild if they said, hey, here,
Jaden Springer's making four million, we're gonna trade him in
a first round pick, who's the best player that Like,
we could get a million that salary range and it's
like a good player on a rookie scale that they
can then extend. But it would just be I don't
expect them to do that. But like, right, I think
we underestimate how Comfy has bought the Celtics financially. We
can get into the Aprons at some point whatever, but
they still they're so good, and they still just have
all these assets that if they really wanted to do something,
they could, But yes to your point. Sorry, Celtics fans,
you're the eleven of ten no notes team. That's that's
what happens.
Speaker 2: Right exactly. There are just no notes team, and those
teams are fine, Like the fans of those teams should
be very happy to be no notes team. No, no fans.
Speaker 1: This is I'll save it for the Western Conference pot
a team that was excluded, another Eastern Conference team that'll
be excluded. This will be less spoiler. I do think
it'd be cool if the Cavs could bring back like
Larry Nance Junior, if they can figure out a way
to get to the money for Dorian Pheney Smith. That
is also to this point, Max Struz is about to
return and they're playing at like a seventy win page.
This is not a team that needs to fuck with anyway.
Speaker 2: Oh, you are spoiling a column that I've got coming
up for Yahoo. You are spoiling it, sir, so because.
Speaker 1: I know you said I was going to pick first,
but you are the guest on this show. Well that's right, right,
so you should pick first.
Speaker 2: So if we're talking about a team that could really drive,
like trade headline, it's got to be the bulls Now.
The thing is though you and I agree they're more
likely not to do anything because it's the Bulls. But
if we're looking at the assets that they have, if
we're looking at the contracts they have to shell out,
if we're looking at the fact that they're also below
the tax line by a significant number and can thus
absorb more money, making easier for second Apron teams to
get up deals. This team could absolutely own the twenty
twenty five February sixth trade headline if they wanted to.
In terms of Kobe White, Iodo Sumwa and I know,
I realized some people are like, whoa hold on, Mark?
Did you just mention Kobe White as a rate acid
or as a trade candidate? Hell, yes, I did. Because
there's a forty one hundred and forty percent extension limit
that goes into effect. Are we sure that Kobe White
is like fully on board with the Chicago Bulls experience?
I like maybe, but they would have to risk him
going into unrestricted free agency to even retain him. So
the fact that they could risk losing him for nothing
means that they should at least consider being proactive and
ship him out. And the same goes for Iodosumo, who's
also overplaying his you know, his contract at this point.
There's sac Lavine. There's also Nikola Vucevich right now is
basically Kevin Durant from monsonnecro It's just I don't really
know how the hell that's happened. There are guys, there
are a lot of guys who are available who you
can make a play for. They can get a lot
of in return. For White, for example, because he's earning
twelve million a year. I think if this team.
Speaker 1: First round picks at minimum, I would think, right, oh yeah,
probably not a great first round pick, but you're getting
two first round picks and either no or player in
that Yeah, yep.
Speaker 2: I mean look, and this is the thing they would
have to commit to that they would have to commit
to saying, look, let's hit the big red ass rebuild button,
a button they've been afraid to hit for years. So
I don't necessarily think they're gonna There's also the fact
that Billy Donovan apparently is very much against rebuilding, and
they just signed him to a contract extension this summer,
meaning odds of them actually going into full on rebuild
are probably slim. But if they were to do the
right thing, they would probably be the team that everyone
should look for at the trade deadline.
Speaker 1: The only addendum I would make is that the fact
that they're only four and a half million dollars away
from the tax line, like, I don't know how much
they actually will help out other teams as we know,
they're definitely not going to pay the tax And I
wonder if because based on the latest reporting from Brian Windhorst,
he said that there's like nothing doing on the zach
Lavine trade front. He's making quite a bit of money,
but it seems to intimate that no one's meeting the
Bulls's asking price. What puts them in an interesting situations.
I do think they have players that other teams want,
but I think when you look at Vouch in the
way he's playing, yes, there'll be teams that want him.
I don't think you get a first round pick for Vouch,
I'd be shocked. And if you're expecting more than a
first round pick for zach Lavine, I personally think that
zach Lavine is very valuable and there are a litany
of teams that I think should trade for him the
money be damned, But I also just relative to what
his value is and the unknowns about how can he
contribute to an actual winning squad. Like if you're the Bulls,
for them to actually define the trade, they might define
the trade deadline by doing nothing, because if you're the
right move would be let's just move off. These players
really lean into steer into our lottery, like keep fine.
If you want to keep Kobe White, I would move him.
That's me personally. I understand why they want someone in there.
But when it comes to Lavine and vouch and like
a toy are They've never been a team that's just
we're gonna move this player because they don't have a
ton of value. We'll get whatever we can from him,
and we're gonna move on. They've always just they've pearl
clutched or they've short circuited to where if I asked you,
what is more likely the Bulls trade for a first
round pick at the trade deadline or they make some
type of addition. I'm not gonna say they'll give up
a first round pick because that would be franchise malpractice,
but they make some type of addition to the team
without acquiring a first round pick. What do you, honestly,
what do you think is more likely?
Speaker 2: Oh oh no, No, for sure the second part. And
I don't even think Look you're saying it would be
franchise malpractice to give up first I agree with you,
but I don't even think that door is closed. You
could make the argument that they gave up a first
round pick by not even taking a pick back in
the Caruso Josh Gidey trade right there. So like again,
they are awful negotiators. I cannot stress this enough. They
are awful negotiators. Even when we go back to the
trade that line in twenty twenty one when they got vouch.
Remember what they gave up. They gave up Wendell Carter Junior,
the former seventh overall selection. They gave up what ultimately
was Franz Wagner and Jet Howard, so basically three lotto
picks for Booch, and they took on the contract of
Alfa Rugumino because why not? Yeah, but why not? It
was so again, they were extremely poor negotiators. So I
agree with you that they're probably looking to upgrade because
they want to be competitive, which is hilarious in and
of itself. But we're working off the prism, Dan that
you and I know better. So that's why we're leaning
into and for the Pole specifically, I think we do.
That's that's why they we should lean into. Like, let's
imagine if they were actually smart very quickly.
Speaker 1: Do you think that they'll end up moving one or
both of If I set the over under a point
five of Lavigne and Bouch being traded, are you taking
the over the under on that, so whither they're going
to trade at least one of them or traded none
of them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the pessimistic side says under because again it's
they might look at Vood like Booch is the one.
I don't think sac of Ven is necessarily on the
on the go because of the contract, Like I think
we can isolate it to Booch. For me, the question
is how how do the bulls view him? I know
we've seen Brian Windhorst say that, you know the vooch
is also they're taking calls on him what dot. But
there's there's a non zero chance that our tourist Carter
shows and Mark Eversley also looks at the current production
and goes, well, what if this is the new norm?
What if this is him moving forward? What if this
is the guy we're gonna get where they just dream
themselves into some false sense of security with him, and
they just decide, no, he's too good to get moved,
Whereas right now is the time to pull the trigger.
Even if you basically do not get anything in turn,
but a like a expiring contract, you should. That's the
way you get off that deal. Just take on an
expiring contract. It's fine, that's a win, and then you
give Jalen Smith I guess the starting nod at the
center of the rest of the season. I wouldn't hate
that either way. But no, I look, I wouldn't even
be surprised if they were decided to be buyers and
they use Lonzo balls expiring contracts to like be buyers.
Speaker 1: Should be using that to be sellers too, like hey,
we'll take that turning money that teams don't want out there.
Speaker 2: Yep, they should. They should. And that's that's what we're
discussing that you and our perspective and our mission on
this pod is to identify what they should do, what
teams should do. I don't necessarily think the bulls are
going to agree. I do have one question for you, sir,
which I think is pretty interesting. So we know that
Josh Kitty's not an NBA starter like the Bulls keep
starting him, which fine, but I do think it's reasonable
to wonder if he could be a solid like you know,
six man or bench creator, Like it's not like he's
not an NBA player. Should the Bulls at this point,
instead of having to go into all the restricted free
agency nonsense this summer, should they be open to moving
off Josh kidding?
Speaker 1: Yeah, they should. I just even if you think Josh
Giddy is someone capable of driving winning, the Bulls aren't
in a position to start winning anytime soon. And so
why are you the team that's going to pay him?
And yes, you'll take a bath if you when you
actually move him, it's oh, you ended up trading Alex
Caruso for three seconds or something. It's better than paying
Josh Giddy. We see this all the time. But we
saw it with the Bulls this past summer. Where was
Patrick Williams' market that he got a five year deal
with a player option? So and we've seen it with
others like Obi Toppin in Indiana just like where was
the market for him? So teams always these players. They're
not bad. I don't mean to say that, but these
players that wouldn't have a market. I feel like these
teams don't, especially in restricted free agency, which has been
dormant for at least two or three years. There were
no offer sheets given out this year from rival teams.
Last year, I think it was only that wasn't the
DeAndre Ayton year. That was the That was the Jazz
and b Ball Paul year, and that was it. So
we know the Bulls aren't gonna play their leverage. And
that's not even a bu thing, that's an entire NBA
franchise thing. They're probably not gonna squeeze Josh Giddy and
so why do you want to if he ends up
getting Patrick Williams money or something. They're just not in
a position when that makes any sense for them, especially
if you view Kobe White to me as a cornerstone.
I understand he could play off ball, but you have
Josh giddeyon Kobe White is like those are your bedrocks?
Like what are you doing?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Agreed, agreed. There isn't a single player on this
roster that I look at and go, oh yeah, untouchable,
like at all.
Speaker 1: Like the closest to Dallas is probably exactly one that
I got bown and bring up like that's the toughest. Yes,
my turn to pick. I'm going to go with. Let's
go with the Nets here and Mark Sign just reported
that they want a first round pick for Dennis Shruder
and or Dorian Phinney Smith. I don't know if they
I don't know if they maybe a bad first round pick.
I don't know if they get a first round pick,
like for one of those guys, like are you taking
back worse money? Maybe that helps, but like a first
round pick for two guys that could be on expiring contracts.
Denns Shooter is gonna be a free agent. DFS is
a player option as of right now. I think he'd
probably decline it and go for a longer deal, even
if it's at less annual value, because he's shooting the
hell out of the ball this season. But we do know,
contrary to the Bulls, the Nets are going to do something,
especially because they reacquired the control of their next two
draft picks. And as things currently stand, they're not bad enough.
They're just they're like tenth in half court offensive efficiency.
Dennis Shruter, he's cooled off, but it's still having a
career year before Cam Thomas was injured. I know he's
sort of a divisive player, but he was playing offense
in like kind of a more scalable way than ever.
He was making threes. Cam Johnson's been fantastic for them
this year. They don't have to move him, but his
shot making has been pretty great. And then like DFS
is having basically a career year from three while still
playing like the same kind of sound. Oh, we can
plug that guy into either forward spot and it will work.
I have confidence the Nets are going to They're gonna
wheel and deal. I'm just curious as to know to
what end are they gonna do that. I think, if
I had to make a prediction before I throw to you,
I think DFS and Dennis Shuter are going to get moved.
That just makes the most sense for them. And they're
also not a team like Washington where it was, oh,
we couldn't get a first round pick for Tyas Jones,
will just let him walk for nothing. I think that
they will capitalize on the value of at least Dennis Shreuter.
I'm your curious to see how aggressive are they when
it comes to Okay, Cam Johnson has time left on
his deal? How much can you actually get for him?
But also just the the cam Thomas of it all
is he's going to be he was extension eligible, he's
going into restricted free agency. If you don't view him
as a cornerstone, I know he's young enough, or don't
want to pay him a bunch of money, do you
look at moving him? And then just the other name,
because I don't think there's no one on this roster
who's untouchable. Is Nick Claxton because he'll be eligible to
be traded. Is are there gonna be teams? You know,
everyone had the Pelican Circle as a possibility. They're dead
where they stand and they found Eve's mecI, so that's off.
I don't know if there's another team that would actively
go out and want to get him. But again, the
Nets are in a position where I think they would
consider pretty much anything at this point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Nets, we need to hand them their flowers
because what they did in the way that they've structured
some of these contracts has been brilliant. So Nick Claxon
you just mentioned, let's start with him. This year is
the only year for the rest of his contract where
he has a cap percentage of over twenty, it drops
down to sixteen point nine next year, then fourteen and
then eleven and a half percent. Like right now, Nicholas
Claxton is one of the most intriguing contracts on the
NBA market. You can get an absolute ton for him,
especially if there's a center starving roster out there that
wants to go get a center on someone on a
budget where they're not committing thirty percent of their cap
for a center, then he is a perfect candidate. Cam Johnson,
to me is the big one though, because you said it, Dan,
They're winning too much, they're not really bottoming out, and
they have Cooper Flag dreams. They absolutely do Cam Johnson
as well. His contract is brilliant sixteen point eight percent
this year in terms of the cap hit, and then
thirteen point nine percent next year and the year after. Again,
you can absolutely justify if you're an outside team going
to ownership and say, look, here's Cameron Johnson, who's averaging
almost twenty points per game and is one of the
best long range shooters in the league, who's and we're
gonna get him for what roughly over the course of
his full remaining contract fifteen percent of the salary gap. Yes, sir,
that's a win. So you're right, they have everything going
for them right now. The way that these contracts are structured,
it is great. I do agree with you that they're
not gonna I would be shocked. It's probably the better
way to phrase it. If they get a first room
for Shooter because of the expiring contract element. If they
get like two seconds, that's a win in my opinion.
Speaker 1: If you get a first I would imagine they're taking
back like let's just use the Lakers as an example.
If they're getting a first ra even Doran Phinny Smith
and or Dennis Shuter, it's what we had to eat
contract X right.
Speaker 2: Part of that that's also in play.
Speaker 4: They could do that. That's that's the beauty of it.
I mean, this team, they have so many exciting possibilities.
To me, I that is the team that I have
circled as being the most interesting in that sense. I
don't think they can drive the trade dadline as well
as a motivated Bulls team could, but they're definitely the
most exciting East team to watch.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I will say they're the teams that I've seen
Cam Johnson linked to where people suggest that he goes
to I feel like some people kind of missed the
plot what Cam Johnson is. I think people have like
consider him a real wing. He's more of a combo
like forward than a wing. And he's not a good reboundary.
He's not a great defender. It's like when I see
the Kings or the Pacers mentioned his destinations for him. Yeah,
he'll fit anywhere, but he makes more sense on a
team that doesn't really need the rebound under the defensive elements,
where like like I mean, I guess, okay, now, okay,
see he doesn't need the defense like, okay, see, would
make a lot of sense. I think the Lakers could
make some sense. But I've I've been interested to see
like some of the the teams that are the best
fits for him. I look at and I say, well,
they're not really to me. They just don't seem like
the best fits for him, Like throw him in San Antonio,
like just a team that'll kind of like doesn't need
a primary wing defender type. And I've just seen him
linked to like too many teams who want another wing
style defender.
Speaker 2: So we're gonna talk about them later on. I wouldn't
hate necessarily a deal that's centered around Cam Johnston for
Bruce Brown in Toronto. Now the question is what the
rest of the deal would look like. But there's something
interesting there about adding a guy like him to a
team that already has multiple wings, who can handle the ball,
who can pass. I know this that the team obviously
in Toronto has been you know, super injured all year long.
But imagine when they're all playing and if you have
a floor spacer like Cam Johnson, that opens the floor
for quickly, for Barnes, for Barrett, Grady Dick, everyone that
he like you said, he fits everywhere, Like okay, see
is the prime destination that I think everyone has attached
themselves to, and I don't hate it. Like, if he
ends up going there and the return is pretty modest,
I'm probably gonna have the thunder over the Celtics as
as championship favorites at that point. Like he's just that
good and they need someone who's a high volume three
point shooter. It's just God, I envy the situation that
they're in Brooklyn just for them to get out of
like all the Max deals and Ben coming off the books,
it's super interesting, all right, Well, see, I don't want
to steal your New York Knicks, so instead.
Speaker 1: Spoil the entire podcast before we even get to all
the teams.
Speaker 2: No, I'm gonna go with the Heat because and look,
that is where I am a news whore, because we
it just came out that they're open to trading Jimmy Butler,
so we have to talk about that. So this is interesting, right,
because usually when you have guys who are like on
the Superstar bubble, you usually get those trades in the summer.
It seems like the Heat are ready to make a
deadline trade here for Jimmy, which is interesting. I don't
know what that deal is. I don't know where he
makes sense, but if they're willing to pivot and go younger,
I'm not necessarily saying it's the right thing to do
for the for the Heat, but it's interesting and he
puts them on a new path which is going to
be very intriguing to follow.
Speaker 1: I find the timing of this so odd because they've
been top ten in offense and defense the past month.
They have that new starting five that is just killing people,
and like this is when that comes out. I think
it's a matter of it's not that it's a revelation,
but it's just kind of a reconcile moment for them
because they're looking at Jimmy and saying, oh, he's age.
Was he thirty five? And he has that player option
for over fifty million even if he declines it, he's
gonna want like this longer, multi year deal. And do
we even want to get into him for if it's
over two years for forty million a pop or whatever
it is? Like, is that what they're reconciled? Like the
timing is just interesting because the Heat seem like as constructed,
they're on better footing than they were, and I do
I personally do not see the pathway where they're viewing it.
As well. If we get rid of Jimmy, we can
still kind of replicate seventy five to eighty percent of
what we're doing with who's ever inbound, and you're also
dealing with his salary's so massive, and the heat when
you look at their finance situation, like, no, this isn't
a team. They're not in to the second apron, but
they are very close. They're fourteen point four million dollars
over the luxury tax and so they're like they're basically
they're not taking in more money than they're sending out.
So you have to find Jimmy a destination that can
take him in and has the ability to take on
more money, which I think is why people are. You know,
Houston's been the one that's popped up a ton, But
if you do the Golden State Warriors as a Jimmy
Butler destination, it feels like that's gonna have to be
like a three or four team machination type trade. So like,
there's the heat have more flexibility on the trade market
than I'm sort of crediting there, But the margins they're
working with are pretty slim, and so the timing and
just with that, if you were gonna make this call,
why not make it over the offseason? His value would
have been objectively higher then, just because you have a
full season to go through Jimmy Butler on your team
and evaluate him. It just this whole thing just feels weird.
But I agree with you he could. If he gets moved,
he's gonna be the biggest name to be moved. I
don't think we're gonna get like a even if Brandon
Ingram's moved, that's not going to be the bigger name.
We're not gonna get like a surprise LaMelo Ball trade
at least, I don't. I don't think so. I understand
why they're going to define I just this whole thing
just doesn't. We just did them as one of our
most confusing teams. This confuses the shit out of me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it does. I mean, look, I get it.
Speaker 2: I think the reason that they do it now is
because they've probably heard some rumplings. That's my guess, because,
like you said, he does have a player option going
into next season, maybe he's told them pretty low key
that you know, I'm not in a lot to pick
up that player option, like I might decline it. And
we know with Jimmy that it's not always financially driven.
Sometimes he's a spontaneous type of guy, Like he could
decline that player option just go hey, look, I'm thirty five,
I'm going to go into my age thirty six season.
I've earned a ton of money over the course of
my career and now I'm going to go over the
ring somewhere else. And if that's the case, then I
understand why Miami is like not panicking, but rushing things
a little bit.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask you then a twofold questions, what is
the best The first one, what's the best Jimmy Butler
trade destination? And do not say the Rockets.
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna say the Rockets because I am.
Speaker 1: Not forget we just remove the age thing from the equation.
I'm not actually trolling anyone who said they'd like to
see him there. The defense would be harrowing, and they
do need a primary offensive force. But I am begging
if the Rockets do anything between now and two thousand
and thirty, just let it be to ad shooting.
Speaker 2: I beg you, right right. So I mean, look, I
know that this is a popular st answer in terms
of the Warriors, but like God damn, the collective IQ
of Steph, Draymond and Jimmy on the same team would
be fantastic, And I think Steve Kerr appreciates that level
of basketball knowledge to a perverse degree. I think that
is probably the destination that makes the most sense. We
also know that Jimmy wants to be coach tarder. He's
been saying that all his all through throughout his career,
and he's got Fred Hoiberg fired because of it. Steve Kerr,
I think is right up his alley as a head coach,
so that would be an interesting situation he was open
to also Dallas. I don't see like that that they have.
Speaker 1: No pathway to getting Jimmy right.
Speaker 2: Like it would have to be Kyrie or something where
it's just like, no, what thought.
Speaker 1: I actually agree with Golden State just because as we
record this more, the Warriors are ninetieth. They're in the
ninetieth percentile of offensive efficiency with Steph on the court
and the fourth percentile without him on the court, and
so to have anybody that could just initiate things during
Butler's during Steph's breathers on a bench. But I think
it's complicated with them. Is you want us around? Do
you have enough spacing after the trade to optimize Jimmy
Butler because Andrew Wiggins has to go out as p
Marry salary part of any of that deal, and then so, okay,
you'll probably still be able to finagle and keep Buddy Heel.
You could include danfy Meltain's salary because he's done for
the year. At the same time, in theory, he would
have been optimal to someone who can actually space the
floor around this new look. But the Warriors have always
made with their core lineups, even if the spacing is
not great, they figure out a way to do it.
But that would be interesting with them. It's just okay, well,
what does the matching money here look like?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it'd have to be Wickans Melton, Gary Payton,
and then it'll have to be a bunch of men's.
Speaker 1: Or kaminga like. I think that that will be able
to get lead. And by the way, that's the other
question here, and is there any other destinations we should
just do you think the Lakers, given any consideration they
put any of their two distant first round picks on
the table, Miami needs to count at that take on
whatever money they're asking you for.
Speaker 2: I'm not necessarily in love with a Davis Lebron Jimmy
spacing element, though, that is right, that's that's gonna be rough.
It's interesting.
Speaker 1: You want to be a fun team, and they would
never do this. This just runs counter their entire DNA,
and I honestly, for them to get to the money,
it's basically anyone but their two best players, like everyone
but their two best players going out but Jimmy and
Indiana would be wild him saka Alibert.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I I yeah, I could see that. And it's
a small market, like they will have to if they
have to get better, it will have to be through
trade because like they're not necessarily a strong free agent destination. Oh,
the pressure would be on them though, Like, and it
feels so bad to they.
Speaker 1: Still have no bigs because I assume that you're gonna
need well, I mean you have toppin. I guess if
you throw Nie Smith in there, you have Mathron and
well that's not gonna be enough to get you to
Butler's money though, So you're probably getting rid of Turner two.
Speaker 2: But you're also feeling bad because you're not really getting
Tyrese Halibert at his best this year for a variety
of factors. So like, and Jimmy, so.
Speaker 1: Maybe we'll save it or like, do we need to close?
I was gonna ask you because I'm I'm gonna pick
the Pacers next, So spoiler alone there? All right, but
how many first round picks the or the equivalent if
I say one and a half first round picks for
Jimmy Butler or the equivalent if you include a prospect? Right,
is Miami etting more or less than that.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, that has to be right on the
money that that that area like one to two because
he again, he's got a player option he can he
can leave technically five and he's thirty five. So yeah, no,
you're absolutely not breaking the bank. But for Miami, you
have to get something in return that's that's substantial still,
Like you can't just you know, have a two thousand
and four Superstar trade, like where you know, the Raptures
gave up Vince Carter for virtually nothing. Yeah, like those
days are over. You have to get something for Jimmy
at this point. But like, you're not going to get
a Rutical Bear package that will be if they if
Miami gets a Rudical Bear package for Jimmy Butler.
Speaker 1: I'm just on the other side of that trade exactly.
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna award the winners of the trade that line,
and I'm just gonna buy them, you know, some sort
of present. Just that's because they'll be deserving of it.
Speaker 1: Is there any other Jimmy Butler teams that even like
imagine a Kawhi for Jimmy swap, there have to be
more moving parts there, but.
Speaker 2: That'd be fun. Oh, Jimmy back to the Bulls for
sack lovine and they got traded for each other back
in twenty seventeen. That would be fun. The Bulls would
be in for that. I'm telling you that they would
love that.
Speaker 1: You know he's not The Spurs aren't a Jimmy team.
Speaker 2: Right, well, I mean in terms of their DNA, he
absolutely is. The problem is, do you want to spend
a lot of assets on the guy who's thirty five
when he Like it's one thing to not necessarily have
the same timeline, but like when Webby's twenty one and
or he's not even twenty one yet, God, it's absurd,
and like he's twenty and Gimmy's thirty five. I think
that's just that's a bridge too far in terms of
like the different age groups and like because CP, I
know he's about to be forty, he's not in that
level as Jimmy is.
Speaker 1: Right, I think that's I can't really. That's the other
thing is Jimmy Butler is really good, but I can't
just rattle off a bunch of teams that would go.
I thought I did think the outgoing money would be weird,
but like if you don't have to give up Recesche
or Dyson Daniels or Trey Young, Like, do you look
at making a Jimmy Butler trade work in Atlanta?
Speaker 2: Oh, that'd be fun. Oh if Mikail Preaches was earning
more money.
Speaker 1: Oh no, no, no, I don't want the thirty five.
That would be a disaster. You're gonna even if you
can parlay mchal Bridges straight up into Jimmy Butler. You've
now traded eighty first round pick the next like what
two or three years of Jimmy Butler.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, now, but I look I like Jimmy
under tips, though I still I know it went wrong
in Minnesota, but that situation was just that was then
on rival.
Speaker 1: That's I think that's pretty much it. And Miami couldn't
they turn Like it's just weird they gave up a
pick for Terry Rozier last year. But I do think
to wrap up on the heat, it does feel like
they've kind of now telegraphed. Well, perhaps they're not sellers,
but they certainly ain't buying. If you're shopping Jimmy Butler,
we're not gonna see them trade another first round pick
or just try to make an upgrade that way, then
I'm assuming.
Speaker 2: I'm really looking through all the scenes here and there
isn't a single one that just jumps off the page
and goes, oh yeah, there's the Jimmy Butler destination.
Speaker 1: Well now go with me on this.
Speaker 2: All right, all right, there's.
Speaker 1: Gonna be other money involved here. You don't have to
figure out what it is. But do you consider trying
to build something around Jamal Murray? If you're Denver, fine,
I was picking Jamal Murray's on the table and oh wait,
you can't be traded this year he signed the extension.
That's never mind correct, So.
Speaker 2: I was thinking about that. That's that's one part. So
I when you just said that, I was reminded of it.
I actually had forgotten that. But just to make the
money work, that's a tough one. I would love to
see like Yo Kitsch, Butler and Aaron Gore on the
floor together. That would be the biggest like bulleyball team
of all time. I would love that. But I does
that seem have enough shooting?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 1: Because I mean, Michael Porter Junior, if you can even
begin to make the money work, he's got to go out.
How do you make the money work.
Speaker 2: Oh no, I thought you just had like I thought
under your scenario. I know you corrected yourself. But even
if you could make like Jamal Murray work, that would shooting.
Speaker 1: Who are you attacked? So even if you're using your
prime like let's say this was the off season or something,
so you have Jamal Murray or Michael Porter Junior or
the other, you would still have to give up another
sizable salary, which you don't. Does Zeke Najee and Dario
Sharz get you there? That's like thirteen million on top
of Michael Porter Junior.
Speaker 2: What's that get you to? Yeah? Uh, thirteen Yeah, you
think just about right.
Speaker 1: You could get there, But there's gonna be three or
four for one.
Speaker 2: It feels like, yeah, and that's an offseason move. That's
definitely not that's not a nope. Well it's interesting though,
the fact that they're open just pivoting off of Jimmy.
I mean, that's going to give us at least a
lot of content going up to the trade. That line, Like,
I love the fact that this has come out because
like in February, when I'm gonna be sitting in that
basketball court doing my live trade, that line thing. I'm
absolutely gonna reference this. We're gonna have at least twenty
five minutes of content just based off of this rumor,
So thank you, Miami.
Speaker 1: My next team is going to be the Indiana Pacers,
who almost made our list of the most confusing teams.
But I just think that the spot they're in is
kind of almost predictable because what you said before about
you're not getting the best version of Tyre's Haliburton, I
really do agree with you, But I also think that
the Pacers have if they haven't caused this, they've almost
enabled it by trying to have him adjust too much
to the environment around him rather than the other way around.
And I understand that changes to the speed, the cadence
and the way that you play with Siakam needs to
be made. I don't need to see Tyree's Halburton changing
who he is so that Benedict Mathrin can work more effectively.
And you go, you dig into the you watch it,
you see it. His off ball usage is just up
compared to last year, and by the way, last year,
for half of the season, the offtball usage was up
already because of the Buddy Heel trade, and they were
trying to use him in that capacity and to have
the off ball usage go up again and then his
true usage, which is usage that's going to factor in
the playmaking the potential assists that is also mega down.
Like what is just I feel like they've just deviated
too far away from the the entire thing that got
them to a point where they felt like they needed
to trade for Pascal Siakam and so they need to
recapture that identity. And yes, I know Halburton had the
hamstring injury last year, dealing with back stuff this year
is clearly not the same. I look at this team
and it's I don't think they could do nothing. And
we know they've needed a wing like Scus defensively, a
properly sized wing, I should say, for roughly forever. And
I also don't know, like you're not good enough right
now to say, well, let me go give up future
draft equity or Jaris Walker or Ben mcmatham to go
get a wing. And the final thing I'll say is
what also makes them interesting is even if they're willing
to do something, I think when you look at hypothetical trades,
or even if you look at the trades that actually happen.
I believe not all, but I think that some Pacers
fans will be in a rude awakening for the disconnect
that exists between just the equity that you have theoretically
invested in Mathrin and Jaris Walker because of where they
were drafted and their actual value around the league. Because
I don't Yeah, if you offer, you know, Jaris Walker
as the primary compensation for Dorian Phinney Smith, I think
the Nets would probably say yes, But I'm sure are
going to be like, oh, hell no, I don't know
that you're getting much more out of a Jaris Walker
trade than a Dorian Phinney Smith type of player, because
it's and if you think you are, you need an
appoint me that you're not getting you know, Jars Walker,
Benec Mathern is not gonna get you Herb Jones. So
I want to be clear, isn't available, But I think
it's easy to say, which would make sense, by the way,
from the Pacers' perspective, if we're trading one of these
should be two blue chip prospects. We need to get
a commesurate return, even if there's other salary and other
draft equity attached. I get that I don't think either
of these guys, even with how well Ben mcmathern has
fared in a role that again, I really do think
Indiana's cow towed to his style a little bit too much. Yes,
I think I don't think you're gonna get a ton.
And then the final thing your primary salary anchor going
out is going to be Obie Toppin another team taking
on that contract that has three years and forty five
million roughly remaining after this year. But he's on a
four year, sixty million dollar deal. They're gonna view that
as part of the outbound value for the Pacers, as
in a meaning getting off of Obi Toppin's contract. I
would say there are very few teams that will consider
that a net neutral deal. And so you can't just
say Obi Topping and Jaris Walker for star X that
it's not going to work like that, because Obi Topping
around the league, I can say this definitively is considered
a net negative contract.
Speaker 2: M Oh yeah, there's like you just said, star There's
no way that it gonna well.
Speaker 1: Obi top and plus Jaris. I'm like, name the higher
end role player that you think would work that is
gonna get Yeah, Okay, that would that get you Dorian
Phinney Smith and then the Net's inserting other money in there. Okay, maybe,
but is that a move that you want to make
as the Pacers to give up on Jaris Walker, who
there's still clearly a potential there, but I don't think
he's ever gonna be the player the Pacers need, at
least not within the window of Siakam. I mean, maybe
Haliburton because he's so young, but certainly not agreed.
Speaker 2: Agreed. I think the bigger names would talk about and
you brought him up earlier. Is Benetict Mathrin. I wonder
if they should sell now. Like again, it depends on
how the seems around the league view him. I wouldn't
be surprised if opinions are pretty pretty split despite the
fact that he's, you know, sporting a lot of good
raw numbers and decent efficiency, Because it does, to your point,
feel like the Pacers have kind of skewed his way
and this is the maximum production level they've gotten out
of him. Seems a little bit curious. So if they
were smart the Pacers sometimes they are, sometimes they're not.
I would definitely feel calls for Matherine to see if
I could find a team out there that is just
like WHOA, you're you're shopping, You're shopping, Ben, all right,
we're on basically how the Bulls acted when the thunder
called him up for Josh Giddy.
Speaker 1: It's just what's fascinating though, is and the East is forgiving,
and so when you're ninth or tenth in the East,
that really just means that you're like five losses out
of home court, is right, right? But are the Pacers
going to because they're not a franchise that like the
the Siakam trade. I think they got great value out
of that because the picks they gave up were just
kind of met and they didn't even have to keep
up them hard in that deal. But that was almost
out of character for their level of aggression because they're
not a franchise that acts. It's not even just brashly,
but starkly, I would say. And when you're sitting here
on the fringes of the Eastern Conference playoff discussion twenty
five thirty games into the season, or if we get
to the trade deadline and they're still floating around this
earlier this area, so you're what you know, halfway more
than halfway through the season. Are you going to be
in bolden to make any of these calls, not just oh,
we need to go out and get someone who could
maybe be part of our closing lineup or be one
of our top six players or whatever. Do you even
look at Oh, are we gonna see what we can
get for Benan mcmathn. Then they're in such a fascinating
position because to this point they have not been good
enough to decide to say, well, we're like one medium
sized trade away from really doing something this year.
Speaker 2: Right, That's what the trade that line is for, honestly,
to figure out where how it seems to view themselves
and that's how we judge them afterwards. Like, if the
Pagers believe that they're a move away, good on them,
I would argue there are several just as you would.
So if this could be a start of that process,
maybe they use the trade a line to say, Okay, look,
we're three steps away from really getting into the thick
of things. Let's see if we can get step one
out of the way. The question is what is that
first step? Is that getting off the open topping contract?
Is that utilizing Benedict Matherne season to optimize the trade return.
Is it shopping Andrew Nemhart Like, I don't think so,
but like, just to use an example, I don't know
what that first step is. That roster is a weird mix.
It's pretty difficult to actually, to me at least isolate
trade value basically between everyone, obviously not including Siakam and Halliburton. Like,
if you ask me right now, what is Miles Turner's
trade value around the league? I couldn't give you an advancer.
I couldn't sit here and say, oh, well, it's in
the ballpark on average and one and a half first
round draft picks. I have no idea because these players,
almost all of them will are so specific in their
skill set that I think every single team out there
gratees them extremely differently.
Speaker 1: My perdition would be they're gonna end up being the
team that doesn't do anything to seismic and they'll try
to capitalize. Let's use think he is an example. If
you're trading Jimmy Butler, I also assume that means that
you're willing to trade Heyward high Smith, and so then
the Pacers come in and scoop up someone like that
to kind of both through their wing ranks, and that
feels like theyre trajectory for this team, but they are
capable and arguably have the incentive to aim or do
so much more.
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I wouldn't disagree with that.
Speaker 1: The question just is, what are you ready to pick
your next team?
Speaker 2: I am, let's go with the Wizards, sir, because there's
a Kyle Kusma, there's a Jordan Poole who's actually playing
pretty well.
Speaker 1: Why not, There's a Yonas Valentiunis, And yeah, I would
argue that, Look, if you're gonna bobcats and by that
I mean finish dead last and offensive defense, that's fine
for where you are, but you better do so by
heavily featuring all your youngsters. And to this point, among
all their regular rotation players, Malcolm Brogden, Yonas Valentiunis, Kyle Kuzma,
and Jordan Poole all have the highest true usage rates
on the team. So it's you know, we've seen them
experiment with bub Carrington and Ballah, but when everybody's healthy, like,
it's time to really get to this point. I understand
you're trying to audition these guys for the trade deadline,
but who who among the names we just listed, Jordan
Poole in so far as he has any trade value,
it's not getting any better because he's performed well this season,
so team still viewers a net negative, which they probably do.
His trade values not going up. Kyle Kusmis trade value
has only gone down, I would argue this year. And
then Malcolm Brogden, even if he's having the best stretch
of his career, he's always just going to be this
checker health bill to a lot of teams. And so
I do think though, based off what the front office
has done in Washington overall, Yes, we saw them hold
on to Tyas Jones not move him last year. I
look at those four names and I have to think
one of them is at least guaranteed to get moved,
if not too right.
Speaker 2: And that's where I am at as well. I just
don't think you can justify hanging on to those guys.
Kyle Kuzma's weird, right, Like that's a weird situation. I
was very I was surprised they that he was on
the opening night roster for them. I saw it for
sure he'd get moved over the course of the offseason,
and that just did not materialize. I'm just not sure
what their vision is. Like. They were pretty open by saying, well,
we're going to try to restructure everything, which means, yeah,
we're rebuilding from scratch. And they still have these remnants
that is so out of place that doesn't really move
intoedlaha lot for him. So it's no guys for sure.
If they can get off of them. I would be
shocked if one of them remains or sorry, like if
they don't trade anyone. But who do you think primarily
of those four is the biggest candidate to get moved.
I would still say Jordan Poole, just because now we're
seeing that.
Speaker 1: He gets like he's most likely to get moved.
Speaker 2: You think, so why who wants that contract? Well, I
mean at least he's producing now he didn't.
Speaker 1: We have other evidence of what happens when he's not producing.
Speaker 2: Just sure, but it only takes one scene to buy
into this though.
Speaker 1: It takes one team, but he so more after this year,
he's got two years and like the eight million left
on his deal, yep, i'd be I would be shocked
if he gets traded. I I mean, look, I think
Jamal Murray, who would you rather have let's go.
Speaker 2: Oh, that's rough. That is rough. I'm gonna coat Jamal
just because I'm not. I'm not that pessimistic. Look, the
thing is that it's because I don't hold that high
an opinion of every front office out there, like we've seen.
We have too many historic examples of teams buying into
a guy having, you know, a hot first half of
the year, and going, oh my god, this is it.
We found our guy. So that's basically the premise I
builded on the fact is someone's gonna be swayed by Oh,
he's hitting forty one percent of his threes on eight
attempts per game. He's scoring twenty he's averaging five assists. Look,
we can unlock him. We can. It's basically the arrest
of development meme. But it happens all the time, like
it might work for us.
Speaker 1: I would I would normally say that I think Brogden
is most likely to be traded because he isn't expiring
and they're not gonna keep him around. But that number
is just so twenty two and a half is not
that's not someone just taking a flyer on someone for
a half seat. Like that's a huge number. So I
think it's Kyle Kuzma because he's more of a long
term piece type for any team that he goes to.
In that contract, I mean, he's been chucking this year,
but it declines a twenty one point five million next
year and then nineteen point four the year after that.
That's eminently workable if you're a team that's trying to
contend and you have other players to pay, or you're
dealing with some payroll concerns. And I really do believe
despite what we've seen at times in Washington, this is
someone who has improved as a positional defender, and I
think he can be more plug and play on offense.
It's just we haven't seen him on a team that
requires him to play such a role in quite some time.
Speaker 2: But so see, here's the I would have agreed with you.
But also the fact that he's still on the roster
is what makes me question whether that trade value that
we think he has is genuine because if look look
last year, twenty two points per game, six and a
half boards for assist, he was a very underrated playmaker
at the four position. He was canning two threes per game,
he was getting to the foul line. No trade during
the offseason, none, No, like big resolution there.
Speaker 1: I viewed that as as well as him not being
moved over the off season. That's sort of they want
to outright not sucky first round picks for him or
the equivalent, and they're now going to reach the stage
where if they're not going to get that, they will
then just take the best offer, which we know will
include at least one first round pick. I'm assuming and
he also just because of his size and there is
some positional malleability there, way more so than any other
three names like a Valanchuotist or Brogden or Pool. I
think you can just envision more teams being interested in
him and his number. They're different players, and I do
think Jeremy Grant is better, but his number is easier
to work with because he's making like fifteen million bucks less.
Speaker 2: And that's the thing. That's why I have been curious
as to why he hasn't been moved yet. That's basically
what it boils down to for me, because you would
think that you could bank in a guy who put
up those numbers put up in that production. They didn't,
And again it just makes you wonder, like what is
the overall feel of him around the league? Because I
agree with you on the surface and from what you
and I know it, he should be the far more
attractive Ye peace out there, But have we really heard
any real buzz over the past six months eight months
about him being oh yeah, like a lot of teams
are in for him?
Speaker 1: Well, what was that? What was the report? I don't
know who had like, I don't know who had this,
but that he turned down a trade to Dallas last year.
I don't know why Kyle Kuzma has Beto power, but.
Speaker 2: That's all that's off. Yeah, No, I mean, look, and
that's that's why I'm going Pool instead. Though I think
some team is gonna basically talk themselves into it.
Speaker 1: I so you think, But you think Jordan Poole is
more likely to get traded than Kyle Kuzma.
Speaker 2: I do, I do?
Speaker 1: Who's more likely to get traded? I don't know what
the loser has to do, but someone time stamp this
received it on betting more uh more, it has to
record his only fans podcast.
Speaker 2: I have to record my OnlyFans pot. You know. The
great part is people gonna go into this video if
I'm wrong, They're just gonna look at the name tech
where it's this grand hues and not my name, and
that's great. So people are gonna think Grant as an idiot.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm gonna fix that live and then I'll have
to fix it in post. A lot of technical difficulties
through this podcast that hopefully listeners will not experience.
Speaker 2: No but no, But but here's the thing. Though I
look on this surface, I agree with you, like you
and I share the same idea of who should be
the most valuable trade piece. I'm just saying that sometimes,
despite the fact that we're approaching this from a logical standpoint,
a lot of NBA teams don't react logically, which is
kind of why I'm going with Pool, because I just
there could be someone out there just going this is
who we need. This is a guard who can make
things happen. He's a guard who's sating forty one percent
the field or so from three he's like twenty five.
Let's go for it. There's upside. We can change him.
I just I have less faith, I think than you
do in NBA front offices.
Speaker 1: I'm going to pick the New York Knickerbockers next. I
just find them fascinating because they have a top five
bet rating, the best offense in the league. They should
get Mitchell pressure that ch is back, Mitchell Robinson's eventually
gonna come back. The pressure to chew a deal seems
like it was made just to be created. I don't
define the deadline might be a little bit strong, but
they clearly need something, and I'm just curious to see
if they'd be willing to move Mitchell Robinson when he's
probably at the nader of his value, or if they'd
rather just roll the dice on him coming back, see
what he looks like with Town, seeing if they could
have the best backup center in the NBA then at
that point. And I think what's also fascinating here is
it's easy to point and say this is what they need.
And look right now, they need defense and they need
McHale Bridges to continue to be better on defense. They
have more. They rank dead last and points loud per
possession against top twenty offenses, not top ten, top twenty.
That is that's awful and you're not gonna win a
title by doing that. I think that they have improved,
not so much defensively, but like the team has clearly
gotten better when you watch them, including mccale bridges on offense.
My whole point is, though, even if you get these
defensive upgrades at the point of attack, how much of
a difference do they make Because you have your closing five,
you have your top five guys, and it's not like
you're not your one. I would be shocked if they're
moving one of those top five guys, but two, Like,
you're not going to pull McHale bridges to play Deuce
McBride or you're not pulling your and I would be
shocked if are you gonna pull Josh Hart to ever
close with two bigs? Because I think you could say,
what if they kind of just change up the big
situation where if you can figure out a way to
get Robert Williams while giving up Mitchell Robinson, that makes
sense for you. It could make sense for you because
Robert Williams is way more dynamic on offense, But like,
what are you willing to give up to get someone
who is probably never closing games for you?
Speaker 2: Right? And what can you give up? It seems like
they've sort of stretched the limits of what they can
actually do.
Speaker 1: That's never going to convey so two future seconds is
how I would prame it exactly.
Speaker 2: I mean, look, you wanted to put them on you
know this list? I that's fair. I personally did not
see why they could be how they could be a
driver of the trade deadline. I don't. I don't. They
don't think they have the ass and like even if
they make a trade sort of like a Boston Ish
kind of situation where it's a margin small marginal move,
not necessarily someone who's going to come in and play
major minute, someone who's going to move the needle any
at least not that I see. I could be wrong.
Like what type of deal is being talked about in
nick Sland? I don't know, Like what are the fans discussing.
Speaker 1: They I think everyone's torn between they want better point
of attack defense or they want to nerve wing or
do they need to change up. I think a lot
of people do believe that with pressure to chew a
back and then if Mitchell Robinson does return, they might
have the answer there. But like those are their needs?
Is they definitely they could use It's weird to say
because you have og Anobi, Josh Hart and McHale Bridges,
but you do need another reserve win because pocom Dottie
is not ready pressure to che is not really a wing.
He's pretty valuable on the defensive end. And by the way,
this also has to be looked through the prism of
you don't want to compromise your five out spacing model.
You're gonna do that if you play with two bigs.
But you're not going to be playing with two bigs
for like twenty five minutes a game, I would imagine.
But it's everything to me needs to be viewed. I mean,
you could look at it and say, Okay, well, has
McHale Bridges and even karl anthy Town's done enough to
say you don't need another like a backup point like
playmaker upgrade over Cameron Payne and Tyler Kohleik who Karon
Payn's been good for just the number he's been brought
in at. But do you want Cameron Payne playing in
the postseason at all? And then you have dudes McBride,
but that's not really his bag like that he's gonna
come in, he's gonna give you plug and play offense
and defense. So they're fascinating to me because I think
they probably have more options available than people credit because
they haven't played every single chip in their bag. At
the same time, it's you do get to the point of, well,
what are you actually doing here? Like what is the cost?
And then what is the benefit of that? It seems
more likely that could they be one of the teams
that just goes out and gets a duop reef and
it's Okay, this is someone wh's gonna play spot big minutes.
We gave up a second to get him or whatever. Right,
But I also think that you could look at them
and as good as they've been, they still do feel
like one significant rotation piece away from being mentioned in
the same breath as Boston and Cleveland and okay.
Speaker 2: Say right, And that's where I wonder what they even
have to offer it, Like, yeah, you have a couple
of seconds. There's the fake first from from Washington, right,
and then the contract of pressures that Chua, what does
that really fetch you?
Speaker 1: I do nasty things to get Tomani Kamara on this team.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I know you would. Yeah, that would
be and that would be a real upgrade. I'm not
gonna downplay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you bench mcal bridges at that point, right and
throw to Moni Kamara in there and and.
Speaker 2: Cook No, but like that would be a real lasset.
The thing is Portland is probably well aware of how
good he is, and that's where I want. I'm questioning
whether there's even the deals to be found there.
Speaker 1: Well. I so Blazers fans have told me that to
Mony Kamara is the second most important player their rebuild.
Uh if that's the state of their rebuild, that's concerning
to me.
Speaker 2: That's true.
Speaker 1: Yes, But with that being said, I don't think they
should move him. But I do think that if even
if you could get him for what it's gonna cost you,
if you're the Knicks, if the plan is not if
he's not even gonna be a closing lineup option, because
politically speaking, are you ever gonna pull Josh Hart or
mcal Bridges or Jail and Brunt like if you need defense?
Like who are you pulling to close with whatever player?
But don't even view it through Tomani Kamara. You just
you can't justify. So any you can't justify or I
should say, you're not gonna get better I don't think
than your top five and so all these other moves,
then you need to think smaller but you're not necessarily
built to make a small trade other than okay, if
you move prescures at you because if you're moving Mitchell Robinson,
like that's a significant player.
Speaker 2: Yes it is.
Speaker 1: Yes, So I think that's the tough spot that they're
kind of in.
Speaker 2: I agree with that it's and that's why I probably
wouldn't have put him on specifically this list because I
do think it's very limited and even if the words
a shop Mitch, maybe, Look, the injury pattern is so concerning.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he hasn't played in like forever at this point. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I just I have such a hard time seeing this
team make a substantial move. Feels like it's gonna Like
I said before, it's gonna be one of those marginal
ones that is probably not gonna move the needle. Although
I agree with the needs there that they have, I
don't think it's solveable like.
Speaker 1: Pressures to chew up plus small salary X and get
Cody Martin. Would that do anything for you? Or would
you rather keep pressures that youa because he can fill
a big man voice.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would, I would, because you can. Yeah, you
can't trust Mitch, you can't. You can't like he and
look even if it's him and uh Ariel hug porty
time baby, oh god, no like and you at least
can play some spotman's at the four of the five. Sorry,
So yeah, no, I I don't. Honestly, I don't think
a wing is the biggest need, although I like, I
get what you're saying there. I would want some rim protection,
some stability there. If Mitchell Robinson is gonna help me
do that by getting back and then staying healthy, which
is the big question, I'm opting for that instead of,
you know, sacrificing either him or a Chewa for a wing.
Speaker 1: Honestly, I yeah, I prefer the wing route, just because
I think then it spares O g Annobi and Michale
Bridges and even Josh Hart. Okay, these guys don't all
have to play thirty seven plus minutes a game on average,
and during the regular season. I think maybe that's what
probably should have mentioned this earlier. Is just it's almost
a matter of getting can you get someone who will
help you eat some innings during the regular season.
Speaker 2: I mean, look, I know you said pacomb Daddy A
isn't ready, and I agree with you, but maybe say
screw it and play him anyway for at least twelve thirteen,
fourteen minutes game.
Speaker 1: You can't get TIBs to pull his starters up twenty
with like four minutes to go. You're not going to
get them to just play, No, I know, I heard it.
Speaker 2: I heard it, and I was remind.
Speaker 1: You that's why you need to give them a real option.
That's the game.
Speaker 2: But like I was just trying to approach this logically,
because you could basically play on two horses at once
where you expedite Daddy's experience level and his development and
you shave some minutes off og Mikale part. But you're right,
that's probably not going to happen. Cameron Paine as your
backup wing now and then time.
Speaker 1: He's been pretty good this year, but as a up
wing probably not.
Speaker 2: Ye, there you go, Tyler Kolla is gonna just take
over the backup point guard role then throw throw paint
in its the wing. Honestly, it's a good question, though,
like I don't see an immediate response. There is there
like a minimum guy who could be interesting.
Speaker 1: Are you talking about wings or just wings?
Speaker 2: Like what what is Tory Craig earning?
Speaker 1: What he's around he's around the minimum, so that could
technically work. Yeah, two point eight sneaky down.
Speaker 2: Right, that's a that's sort of a deal that could
be interesting.
Speaker 1: They might be, I mean, they'll be restricted in who
they can get, but like they might also be a
buyout team, just that the player was making less than
the yeah mid level. Oh wait there Yeah, their first apron,
so they're gonna have to that. That'll be a restriction
for them right there.
Speaker 2: They they were a hard capped at the second aprin
only five and eighty thousand.
Speaker 1: Well that's also that's what makes it's not like unnavigable.
But that's also what makes their trades stuff so tough,
is that they have to take back. They basically just
have to take bath less money than they're sending out
at this point, and anyone they sign off the buyout market.
So what's the mid level this year at twelve point nine,
So they need to they need to be earning under
twelve point nine million dollars if they get bought out.
I haven't really dug into biock adies, but they feel
like a team that could certainly be a buyout, Like
they'll be monitoring the buyout market.
Speaker 2: Well, look that's that's not for now. Buyout that's after
the trade deadline. I can't be bothered talking about buyouts
at this court.
Speaker 1: Oh man, if Larry Nance Junior ends up getting bought
out in Atlanta, sign me up?
Speaker 2: Is he that is he? Really?
Speaker 1: He's an eleven point two? Would you trade, like, let's
just Atlanta just because Copella is gonna be a free agent?
Would you trade Mitch for Larry Nance Junior?
Speaker 2: Or would you want? Absolutely? Like? Like why? Why? Why
would the Hawks though?
Speaker 1: Because they want someone who's under con like Copell. Let's
say they don't want to pay Capella and Nance and
they think those guys are gonna cost too much money
together for whatever reason, they you know, Mitch is under.
Speaker 2: Car right, Yeah, I see what you're going. Okay, Yeah, No,
absolutely I would. I think I think Atlanta would be
the ones who have to be convinced. But yes, absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean if you could do, look, give me Vic
Crachy and Marian Junior for Mitchell Robinson and that might
be something you have to consider.
Speaker 2: All right. So the Toronto Raptors, I don't have a
lot to say about them, but I do think they
are disturbing of a mention here. I think a lot
of people are a little too harsh on them because
like they've they've been so injured, Like they haven't had
a single game this year with Rji Barity Manual quickly
and Scottie Barnes played at the same time. That so
happened this year, like at all. This team is so
interesting to me because they have Bruce Brown's expiring twenty
three million dollar contract. Now, a lot of people would go, well,
they can just let that expire and then they'll have
some wiggle room going into the next summer. No, they
will not, because that's when Scottie Barnes's extension kicks in.
He's gonna be earning twenty eight million dollars more than
he is this year. So that's a substantial race. So
the question is should you get out ahead of things,
both with Bruce Brown and maybe even Chris Bouche as well,
and say, look, what can we do for the like
what can we get for those two that are longer
term deals so we can actually maintain that sort of
flexibility because they're not gonna have cap space. This is
going to have to be a team that operates us
over the cap for a lot of years to come,
so why not just I mean find.
Speaker 1: By the way, capspace doesn't matter anymore. They had the
chance to have cap space this year and they went
right the opposite route, so right, so why not you
just wouldn't look at I guess. But then if you're
doing that, you need to acquire someone who's better than
those guys, because otherwise it's why not just resign those
guys and roll over there? So maybe Bruce Brown doesn't
want to be there happy in his cowboy outfits this year, so.
Speaker 2: Right, And so this is one of the most forgotten
items in my opinion, within the NBA's communication. So like,
if you have a very good relationship with a player
and an agent, and if you just communicate and talk frequently,
you have a pretty good idea where a guy is leaning.
So if you know the Bruise is interested in resigning there,
I agree with you. Then I wouldn't trade him necessarily
because it's not going to command twenty three million dollars
again per year, that's not going to happen. You can
get him cheaper than that. But if he is, like
I'm waffling a little bit, I have one for it
out the door. I look at different options. Then absolutely
you need to be proactive, right, That's that's the dance
of an NBA general manager. Bouchet Is, I have no
idea where he's leaning, so that's a similar situation. But
I would at the very least have a trade lined
up before the deadline that I have sort of an
option on if i'm them, where I can say, Okay,
we got this in the back, we can go there
if we want to. Because just having that flexibility of
having a big contract on the books as well that
you can move down the line for example, that'd be huge.
Speaker 1: I just do you view them as a team that
would kind of buy.
Speaker 2: I think they well. By buying is a stretch, right
because you're still giving up Bruce Brown, like right now,
he hasn't played this year. So what I'm basically saying
is you need to have I think you should just
prioritize your salary cap optimization, That's what I will say.
Because so Scotty Barnes just went out again, so he's
going to be out for at least a few weeks.
We don't really know when quickly is going to come back.
I don't think they're in a rush to like get
better because I think they fully realized they have a
real crack at Cooper Flag for example. But they're not
your traditional rebuilding team like this team.
Speaker 1: First of all, they can be pretty they played a
lot of competitive games.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and look they're good if you look. It's almost
been the silver lining. I'm writing about this over at
Forbes as well, Like I'm there's a silver lining here
by having those guys on the bench. Grady Dick Jack
a Peartle have both blown up. They've been fantastic. Like
right now, if everyone were healthy, including Bruce Brown, you
have a set starting five and a set six man
and that should be a pretty interesting six man like
core right there. But that just has to materialize. Now
you're adding you're going into next year possibly without Bruce Brown,
but you could be adding I don't know, a Dylan Harper,
Ace Bailey, a Cooper Flag even where like if they
end up with a high pick, they could they could
get like a real difference maker. So I want to
preface that by basically saying, Okay, before we get into
that summer, Bruce Brown's salary slot, we need to replace
that with someone else. Is that considered buying perhaps perhaps not.
I just look at it as salary cap optimization.
Speaker 1: I guess it's just I agree with the premise. It's
just a weird line to straddle because if you're giving
up Bruce Brown's expiring salary, especially while he's injured, I mean,
let's just say, like what team is the contractor getting
back is one the other team probably doesn't want, So
you have to tow that line of, well, we're getting
someone who can still be a valuable salary anchor in
a trade, at least as an expiring to where Okay,
maybe they're being overpaid like a Bruce Brown, but it's
not so long term that now we're just kind of
bag holding, correct, And that's a very different That's like
a really thin line to toe.
Speaker 2: It is, absolutely and that is why I'm not gonna
I'm not earning millions to sit in the front office,
because that is the job of those guys to figure
that out. But I do think that is one way
they could go about in this trade deadline, because I
think the Raptures are underrated in that sense. Like everyone
looks at the records seven and eighteen and they go,
oh my god, they've been crap, But they haven't really.
I mean, they've just been well.
Speaker 1: We did a segment on this earlier in the season.
As held true, they are the perfect kind of bad.
There's development, there's fun, there's competitiveness, and yet they're not winning.
I mean, you can probably make the case at some
point you want to see them win fewer games. I've
had the second worst record in the East. No, like
you're still firmly in like the lottery. They've been the
perfect kind of bad this year.
Speaker 3: They have, They really have, and that's why I think
they're super interesting to watch going into this trade that line,
because they also have a lot of options at their disposal.
Speaker 1: It's, you know, the only contract I think springs to mind,
and he's been playing. This isn't last year Zach Collins,
but like that would be the type of deal where
he had one year left after this year, right, and
maybe the Spurs want to clear that money off the books.
And Bruce Brown if he's healthy, he's kind of a
Spursy player.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I love that. Love that. That's really good
because I had I wrote an article before the season,
by the way, and this is actually funny. So I
got aggregated just last week on it because and that's
the I wrote the article before the season even began.
I basically pitched a deal that would send Bruce Brown
and I think it was Chris Bruche to uh Portland
for DeAndre Ayden, so basically because at that point we
didn't we didn't know that Pearl would take this leap, right,
and I didn't know. No one knew.
Speaker 1: To be fair, a lot of Raptors fans were really
espousing his value to when it comes like offensively and
unlocking things even last year.
Speaker 2: Right, but he still took a major step up this
year to the point where we're all kind of like,
oh oh, he had that level in him, right, So
that was an idea I ahead of the time. Not
there anymore because Yaga Peol obviously has basically said, what
what did you write? More? Fuck you, I'm gonna take
that center spot for myself, thank you very much. So
now there's there's just not that need. Kelly Linin is
also still around, by the way. It's it's so interesting
to get a guy like Sack Collinson there though, because
you can sort of play him at the forest well,
or you can play Kelly Lnik at the Fort like
you can make that work.
Speaker 5: There's a very loose term, right right, and you know
better this year has been pretty bad in the past
few games, I believe, But right, that's the I mean,
if I'm the Spurs, I'm pouncing it, even if Bruce
Brad's I'm gonna play this year, and I might just
pounce it getting off Zac Collins's money, even if I
have to include a second I'm doing Zach Collins for
Bruce Brown for sure.
Speaker 2: That that's That's probably one of those deals the Spurs
would like to take back.
Speaker 1: Our final pick is on me and I'm going to
close this out. No teams in the East being talked
about after this more. We gotta go with the Philadelphia
seventy six ers, right, yes, sir, they have a human
trade exception in kJ Martin. They have four movable first
round picks. They could move Jared McCain, although I don't
necessarily why they would want to. Joel Embiide is back,
so things are trending upward for them. They've moved all
the way up to twelfth in the Eastern Conference as
we record this. That's a pretty that's a big deal. Well,
look again, that only means they're like a four game
winning streak away from being in fourth place.
Speaker 2: Then that is true. That is true. Yes, I thought
you were trolling with that one.
Speaker 1: Yeah. OK, they were always going to define the trade
deadline because everyone viewed this team as well. They're built
to make another. It might not be a mega move
because you look at their payroll moving forward. You know,
Daryl Morey can say is the authorization to do whatever
he wants. But I don't think that they're gonna go
for someone who makes a ton of money, even though
look they could step ladder their way there and get
to some pretty splashy names. I just don't know what
they're gonna do anymore. I think you still kind of
have to go the route of ultra aggression. But like
the Paul, George and Joel and b decisions are now
looking more fragile than ever. Let's put it so it's
you view it on both sides of the fence saying, well,
we now our windows even shorter maybe than we thought,
so we have to go all that ords well our
window just might never open, and so like we kind
of need to take a step back and we'll recalibrate
over the summer. What do you think They're gonna they again.
They are built to do all sorts. That twenty twenty
eight Clippers first round pick is one of the most
I know the Clippers are playing well this year, but
that's still one of the most valuable assets on the
trade market. When you're looking at draft picks specifically, what
do you expect them to do.
Speaker 2: That? Honestly, I have no clue because they are like
you said that, they're all over the place. I just
have not been able to get a good read on him.
I would actually, look, I'm copping out on that one,
and I'm asking you a question instead, because this is
where I'm at. You just brought up Embiiden and Paul George,
So I want to just get into that. If you
were offered if the Philadelphia is some your del mory. Okay,
So it seems calling you both of them are able
and this is pure fantasy, but we're still rolling with it.
They're offering you expiring contracts for Joe and Paul George.
They're basically giving you a lifeline to get out of
those deals. What do you do? Dan?
Speaker 1: Look here, So I actually think the Sixers are gonna
be fine because the look if you want to get
out of the Joel Embiid business, you never would have
gotten into the Paul George business. And two, I really
do think that we make every Joel Embiid return from
injury into this nightmare scenario when we have eons and
eons of data and past president that he takes a
while to ramp up. Now me, stuff is concerning for
obvious reasons, but this is just where happens. I think
that we're going to get to a point this season
where we're going to start seeing the social media posts
of oh, Joel Embiid is back. So I don't think this.
I was wrong about the Sixers in terms of I
thought they were one of the Inner Circle title contenders.
I really do not think they belong there anymore. But
I tend to be more optimistic about what they can do,
at least this season. So if you're calling and offering me,
if you're calling offer me expiring deals for those two,
I'm gonna say no. You can say you want to
rejigger around Maxi and McCain. I can't get there, right.
Speaker 2: I agree with you on that. It's just it's been
a question that I've been getting a lot from the
Danish sides. A lot of Danish listeners.
Speaker 1: Even fair I'm and that's the thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there the more questions I got up like it
was like, okay, that it's a legitimate question, Like I
do definitely lean on your side as well, I think
you're in it, Like you're absolutely right. They committed to Joe.
They knew that Paul George was you know, thirty four
and has just a rough injury history as basically, ka,
why if you're looking over the past what five years,
So this was them just rolling out the dice and saying,
whatever happens happens. I think they're in it and they
think they're committed. Do I think there's a chance in
hell that they get to the finals? Probably not. Again,
I think we talked about this over the last part.
Like I'm just at that point now where there's so
much history against Joe in the playoffs and health and
whatnot that it's just I'm at that point where I
need to see it to believe it. I can't go
in and go, oh, yeah, the Sixers are going to
be like a real threat and this year's playoffs, I
can't It's been so many years now where they're entered
the postseason with someone out or drastically diminished over the
course of a series. So I just don't have the
faith in them being a finals candidate. That said, I
agree they just need to run the course. But do
they need to give up more assets to build on
what they have?
Speaker 1: I think the route to go is can we and
I think you can make a case for, like what
their biggest needs are. I think you can make a
case for a wing, maybe a pure four, another combo
big so that one. When Joel Embid is invariably out,
you're not just in Theandre Drummond business or Yabu Sally business.
You go a bunch of different directions. But I think
the actual move, like overall, would be a first round
pick outgoing salary for player X. That cracks a high
part of our So two names that's bring to mind
for me is DORIANE. Phinney Smith, So you have Kelly
Bridge Junior kJ Martin include a first get Dorinehiny Smith
or a what about this because I think he could
play next to Embiid, But like would Isaiah Stewart tickle
your fancy at all? Of your Philly?
Speaker 2: Oh that's interesting because he can play both the four
the five. He can stretch a little bit defensively, he's
training upwards, solid rebounder.
Speaker 1: I guess it presumes that he would stretch a little bit.
They've punted on his three point volume, and I know, yeah, yeah, but.
Speaker 2: Like you, you know, he showed enough career wise that
I trust him right right, Like I'm not I'm not
nervous about him not taking threes anywhere else, so on it. Yeah,
I think you can mimic some of the same sets
with EMBIID obviously with less efficiency and less effectivity, but
but you can to a certain point. That means I
don't hate that. I say, a stort is a good name.
He's also young, so like if things tend to go poorly,
he's on that Tyrese Max Chared McCain timeline. Yeah, I
like that. That's a good thing.
Speaker 1: And he's Look, he's Detroit's best big with all the
back to jail and Durham. The problem is that he's
not someone who's ever gonna play a ton of minutes.
It seems like Philly's almost the better fit. Detroit's like
too good to think in terms of let's just get
they could use extra first round picks. But if I'm Detroit,
I'm probably not doing it for one first round pick.
If if the Clippers pick, then we have a discussion.
But I'm not giving up the Clippers pick if I'm Philly.
But Philly is almost a better not a better spot
for him. But like, Detroit needs a big that could
play a bunch of minutes, and it doesn't seem like
Jaeln Durnan or Isaiah Stewart are ever gonna do more
than kind of split that share. And in Philly it's okay, Well,
you don't need Isaiah Stewart to play a ton of minutes.
Speaker 2: So are there sixers driving the trade deadline at all?
Or are they more along the lines.
Speaker 3: With the Knicks that we had before, where Yeah, I think,
look they're drivers because I think if you're sellers, yeah,
who have like any sort of wing or combo forward,
maybe even like a guard with size.
Speaker 1: You were probably hoping that Philly's asset stash was going
to be something on which you could capitalize, and now
they've added I think at the beginning of the season,
or at least the the offseason, you definitely said they
are going to make a move or two and they're
gonna trade multiple first round picks to do it, and
now it's well, are they and so they've added this
degree of uncertainty to it that I think if your sellers,
I bet you. Even Washington was like, hey, maybe like
we'll get one of their first for Kyle Kuzma or something.
If they want to step ladder their way up. There
a tougher salary to meet. I honestly do believe that teams.
Not that they assumed they would be the team the
Sixers would break bread with, but they were a team
that's prospective sellers look at and say, there's movable first
round picks there that will be moved, and so we're
gonna try and wait that out and see how it
is resolved. Okay, those were our Eastern Conference teams that
are most fascinating to us ahead of the twenty twenty
five NBA trade deadline. We will be doing a second
podcast where we talk about our most interesting Western Conference teams.
Because we went double up what we were supposed to do.
We said we were gonna do forty five minutes on
the East and forty five minutes on the West, and
we did about close to ninety minutes. On, so everybody's
getting extra content out of this. Hopefully you appreciate it more, though,
Can you just tell our fantastic listeners if they are
not already listening to you or reading you, where they
can find you and all your great work.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for having me really appreciate it.
You can find my work at the NBA Podcast first
and foremost, where you are a frequent guest. You can
also find a work where we're at Yaher Sports, Sports
Illustrated and Forms.
Speaker 1: Until next time, and as always, I've everyrie to shout
out to one the only the indelible. Not available for
trade right now, but you might be able to be
signed at some point, mister Frank nili Kina