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You'll for necessary daily repod where everybody 26 00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:04.239 lost in terms of conditions eating Plus. 27 00:01:11.439 --> 00:01:14.879 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 28 00:01:14.959 --> 00:01:18.000 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 29 00:01:18.040 --> 00:01:25.319 written about them Gasey Bundy Dahmer The Nightstalker VTK every 30 00:01:25.359 --> 00:01:30.120 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous. 31 00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:31.079 Killers in true crime history. 32 00:01:31.760 --> 00:01:36.560 True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 33 00:01:45.799 --> 00:01:49.719 Good Evening. A nineteen year old accused of killing his 34 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:55.040 parents is diagnosed with an unusual psychiatric disorder and spends 35 00:01:55.079 --> 00:01:57.920 a torture of six years in the Colorado judicial and 36 00:01:57.959 --> 00:02:02.319 mental health systems before his case experience is an unexpected end. 37 00:02:03.120 --> 00:02:05.319 Just in the Nick of Time is one of the 38 00:02:05.319 --> 00:02:10.439 most profound cases of multiple personality disorder MPD, all told 39 00:02:10.520 --> 00:02:13.800 from the perspective of the person who interacted most with 40 00:02:13.879 --> 00:02:19.120 the personalities, his criminal defense lawyer, David Sabots. It is 41 00:02:19.159 --> 00:02:21.879 a book about what happens when a mental disease far 42 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:26.800 outpaces the understanding of the courts, the psychiatric community, and 43 00:02:26.840 --> 00:02:30.280 the public. The book that we're featuring this evening is 44 00:02:30.520 --> 00:02:33.639 just in the nick of time with my special guest, 45 00:02:34.120 --> 00:02:38.599 author and attorney David B. Sabots. Welcome to the program, 46 00:02:38.680 --> 00:02:42.120 and thank you very much for this interview. David B. Sabots, 47 00:02:42.479 --> 00:02:45.159 Thank you for having me, Dan, thank you very much, 48 00:02:45.199 --> 00:02:50.199 and congratulations on this extraordinary book. It's very unique. And 49 00:02:50.800 --> 00:02:54.199 congratulations on bringing this story to the public. 50 00:02:54.439 --> 00:02:56.800 Thank you, and thank you for allowing me to share 51 00:02:56.800 --> 00:02:57.639 it with your public. 52 00:02:57.879 --> 00:02:59.960 Let's get right to this extraordinary story. 53 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:00.240 Sorry. 54 00:03:00.919 --> 00:03:04.080 You take us to September twenty third, nineteen eighty three, 55 00:03:04.439 --> 00:03:07.319 and you write that you get a call from your mentor, 56 00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:12.759 long time mentor and lawyer extraordinaire, Walter Garash. Tell us 57 00:03:12.800 --> 00:03:14.960 about this phone call what he had to say to you. 58 00:03:15.080 --> 00:03:18.240 I believe it was a Friday night, Dan, and I 59 00:03:18.360 --> 00:03:22.879 was home. My experience with Walter by then a span 60 00:03:23.000 --> 00:03:26.840 about eleven twelve years in which we tried cases together. 61 00:03:27.120 --> 00:03:30.439 He was a mentor and teacher of mine during that 62 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:34.680 time and throughout the time we practiced together. So I 63 00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:37.759 received a phone call from him and he says, David, 64 00:03:37.800 --> 00:03:42.080 I need you to get money from the estate of 65 00:03:42.520 --> 00:03:47.599 Rod and Marilyn Carlson were found murdered about a month 66 00:03:47.719 --> 00:03:52.800 or so ago and their son, Ross is the individual 67 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:57.719 suspected of having committed their murders. He's been arrested. The 68 00:03:57.840 --> 00:04:03.400 parents left a will included a trust funded by assets 69 00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:07.919 including life insurance left by them. Ross wants to hire me, David, 70 00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:10.599 but I can't get on the case unless we can 71 00:04:10.639 --> 00:04:13.759 get the money from that trust. So I need you 72 00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:17.720 to go into the probate court in Denver and argue 73 00:04:17.920 --> 00:04:22.040 the entitlement and discretion of the trustee to take money 74 00:04:22.040 --> 00:04:26.240 from that trust and pay me to defend Ross in 75 00:04:26.279 --> 00:04:29.120 his case. And if you succeed, David, then I'll get 76 00:04:29.160 --> 00:04:31.920 you on the case as well. So with that carrot 77 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:34.959 man and with the challenge ahead of me, I learned 78 00:04:34.959 --> 00:04:37.920 about the case fel of the motion in the probate 79 00:04:37.959 --> 00:04:41.639 court to have the probate court order the trustee to 80 00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:45.399 make the distribution from the trust, and that was the 81 00:04:45.439 --> 00:04:49.160 beginning of the relationship between me and Walter and Ross. 82 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:53.040 You right that there was some trepidation in terms of 83 00:04:53.399 --> 00:04:59.319 the grandparents' response and potentially their refusal to be able 84 00:04:59.360 --> 00:05:02.279 to give up those funds for Ross to be defended 85 00:05:02.319 --> 00:05:03.360 by attorneys. 86 00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:07.120 I think it wasn't so much of their refusal, but 87 00:05:07.199 --> 00:05:11.480 I think it was a sense of confusion that they 88 00:05:11.680 --> 00:05:16.519 had about the whole process and what we intended to 89 00:05:16.720 --> 00:05:20.519 use the funds for and what the defense of Ross 90 00:05:20.560 --> 00:05:24.879 would be. In the trust, Ross was the primary beneficiary 91 00:05:25.160 --> 00:05:30.279 and the two sets of grandparents were the contingent beneficiaries. 92 00:05:30.399 --> 00:05:34.920 The contingent beneficiaries would then the people who would receive 93 00:05:35.240 --> 00:05:40.800 the trust assets if the primary beneficiary, namely Ross, was 94 00:05:40.839 --> 00:05:45.920 not allowed to take a trust assets in Colorado, there 95 00:05:46.120 --> 00:05:50.160 was a law which exists in many states that does 96 00:05:50.199 --> 00:05:54.879 not allow the recipient of trust funds who may have 97 00:05:55.000 --> 00:05:58.959 been the perpetrator of the deaths of the people who 98 00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:03.319 left the trust to receive those funds. Essentially, the law 99 00:06:03.360 --> 00:06:07.959 doesn't want the killer to benefit from mondis left by 100 00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:12.360 the people whom he killed. So explain that to the parents. 101 00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:16.000 I got them an attorney to represent them, told them 102 00:06:16.120 --> 00:06:20.399 that under Colorado law, we were going to advance the 103 00:06:20.519 --> 00:06:25.720 defense that Ross wasn't responsible for the murders of their children, 104 00:06:25.839 --> 00:06:30.319 bringing the grandparents' children because he suffered from a mental 105 00:06:30.399 --> 00:06:34.639 illness and wasn't sane at the time the accused crime. 106 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:39.120 Once the grandparents understood the dynamics of the defense and 107 00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:42.480 were able to speak with their own attorney, whom I 108 00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:46.439 had retained for them, and they eventually agreed that they 109 00:06:46.439 --> 00:06:51.920 would consent to the distribution of the trust proceeds to Ross. 110 00:06:52.120 --> 00:06:55.800 That gave the probate court the green light to order 111 00:06:56.279 --> 00:07:00.199 a trustee to make the distribution without an object action 112 00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:01.480 from the grandparents. 113 00:07:01.680 --> 00:07:05.000 You say, one of your first tasks was to learn 114 00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:07.879 more about your client and the faithful night his parents 115 00:07:07.879 --> 00:07:11.959 were killed, and you spoke to doctor Gregory Willitts. Tell 116 00:07:12.040 --> 00:07:15.439 us what doctor Willitts had said about his treatment of 117 00:07:15.560 --> 00:07:18.959 Ross or his assessment and valuation of Ross Carlson. 118 00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:23.560 When attorneys in these types of cases decide to advance 119 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:27.240 or are going to consider a mental illness defense or 120 00:07:27.319 --> 00:07:32.160 mental capacity defense, one of the aspects of that defense 121 00:07:32.600 --> 00:07:37.480 is to see if the individual was undergoing mental health 122 00:07:37.519 --> 00:07:41.399 treatment or had a history of mental health treatment. And 123 00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:44.279 we were fortunate in this case to learn that for 124 00:07:44.439 --> 00:07:49.480 approximately one year before the murders of Ross's parents, he 125 00:07:49.600 --> 00:07:53.360 had been in treatment with doctor Willitts. The year before 126 00:07:53.920 --> 00:07:58.480 these homicides of the parents, Ross was arrested for having 127 00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:03.959 posed as an individual who wanted to buy dynamite from 128 00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:10.439 a representative of a soldier of Fortune magazine. Undercover officers 129 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:14.839 learned of Ross's intent to buy the dynamite, pos as 130 00:08:14.920 --> 00:08:19.680 representatives of that magazine to distribute the dynamite to him, 131 00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:23.920 arrested him at the scene and learned that the reason 132 00:08:24.040 --> 00:08:27.160 he wanted to buy the dynamite, in part was to 133 00:08:27.199 --> 00:08:31.600 blow up the house that he and his parents lived in, 134 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:35.759 because he Ross believed that he was a burden to 135 00:08:35.879 --> 00:08:40.440 his parents and one way he could alleviate them of 136 00:08:40.600 --> 00:08:44.320 their burden, namely him, was for him to die, and 137 00:08:44.399 --> 00:08:47.360 he thought by blowing himself up in a house and 138 00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:51.399 that would accomplish that purpose. Ross was placed on probation 139 00:08:51.960 --> 00:08:55.840 in that dynamite case, with the condition that he undergoes 140 00:08:55.919 --> 00:09:00.120 psychiatric treatment, and he did that with doctor Willis, so 141 00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:03.279 he Doctor Billets was someone whom we wanted to speak 142 00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:07.279 to to get an idea of what Ross's mental condition 143 00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:10.919 of mental health was for the year before the homicides. 144 00:09:11.279 --> 00:09:14.360 At the time we met with doctor Wilberts, he was 145 00:09:14.720 --> 00:09:19.399 anxious and fearful that we might be using that meeting 146 00:09:19.840 --> 00:09:24.919 as an opportunity to obtain evidence against him for his 147 00:09:25.159 --> 00:09:29.000 failure to make a diagnosis that put the Carlson's and 148 00:09:29.159 --> 00:09:33.200 harms Way, namely at the death of their son. So 149 00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:35.799 we assure doctor Bilarts that that was the last thing 150 00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:38.519 that we had in mind. We gave him a release 151 00:09:38.759 --> 00:09:41.200 we would not sue him, and that gave him the 152 00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:46.279 green light to discuss Ross's treatment with us in detail. 153 00:09:46.600 --> 00:09:50.200 At the time of our discussion, we had some information 154 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:56.120 from investigation that we had done before we met with 155 00:09:56.240 --> 00:10:02.360 doctor Willets, which suggested that Ross thought of himself as 156 00:10:02.480 --> 00:10:07.200 being more than one person. We didn't know exactly what 157 00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:12.360 that meant. What the investigation showed was that Ross would 158 00:10:12.399 --> 00:10:17.120 mention to friends that he Ross had a twin brother 159 00:10:17.519 --> 00:10:21.720 who lived in Arizona, whose name was Justin. We knew 160 00:10:21.799 --> 00:10:24.919 that Ross was an only child, so we didn't know 161 00:10:25.480 --> 00:10:30.000 what Ross's reference to Justin meant. But as we met 162 00:10:30.039 --> 00:10:34.399 with doctor Willarts and began discussing with him some of 163 00:10:34.440 --> 00:10:39.200 the investigation that we had done, including the mention of 164 00:10:39.360 --> 00:10:43.879 this other individual named Justin, a light bulb went off 165 00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:48.440 in doctor Willarts's mind. He slammed his fist on the 166 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:52.200 conference table around which he sat and said, to the 167 00:10:52.279 --> 00:10:56.039 words of the effect instead of a bee, I missed it. 168 00:10:56.399 --> 00:11:00.440 This guy may have suffered from multiple personality to disorder, 169 00:11:00.840 --> 00:11:04.639 and that provoked a very lengthy discussion then during our 170 00:11:04.679 --> 00:11:07.799 meeting with Dr Bolts as to exactly what he was 171 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:11.919 talking about, and the more he discussed multiple personality disorder, 172 00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:16.519 which he abbreviated as MPD, the more we refer to 173 00:11:16.639 --> 00:11:20.639 investigation that we had done which seemed to be consistent 174 00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:25.320 with some of the features the illness that Dr Woltz 175 00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:28.600 was discussing with us. That was the first time that 176 00:11:28.639 --> 00:11:33.919 we had heard about this potential diagnosis, which obviously would 177 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:37.799 form the basis of a defense of ours, an eventual 178 00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:41.759 plea to this recurt of not guilty by reason of insanity. 179 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:44.519 Now, what was the first thing that you had to 180 00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:48.559 do in terms of finding more about this mental illness 181 00:11:48.759 --> 00:11:53.279 but also Ross's background and his parents and the influence 182 00:11:53.360 --> 00:11:57.039 of his parents' background on Ross's psychological development. 183 00:11:57.200 --> 00:12:02.720 Obviously we had to historyans, namely his parents, who were 184 00:12:02.759 --> 00:12:07.519 deceased and could not provide us with any information about 185 00:12:07.559 --> 00:12:11.600 his upbringing, so we had to rely on other sources 186 00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:16.600 for that information. That in part included the grandparents. That 187 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:21.279 in part included notes and history that Doctor Bullets took 188 00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:26.120 about Ross's background because at the time when Ross was 189 00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:30.600 in treatment with Doctor Bullets. Ross's parents were still living 190 00:12:30.879 --> 00:12:34.240 and Doctor Bullets from time to time, what had families 191 00:12:34.799 --> 00:12:40.000 had family psychiastic sessions with them and learned information from them. 192 00:12:40.200 --> 00:12:45.480 The key information about the suspected abuse of Ross by 193 00:12:45.759 --> 00:12:49.799 his parents and or others would not have been revealed 194 00:12:49.879 --> 00:12:53.399 by the parents, of course, because that kind of behavior 195 00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:57.120 is typically kept secret from anybody. So we had to 196 00:12:57.159 --> 00:13:01.240 go through other sources that included, but were not limited 197 00:13:01.279 --> 00:13:06.120 to Ross being a historian, Doctor Billets and also being 198 00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:10.879 a historian, to experts whom we hired, actually Walter hired 199 00:13:10.919 --> 00:13:16.120 them to do their forensic evaluation of Ross. It is 200 00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:19.960 those doctors with whom we met after we spoke to 201 00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:25.320 Doctor Billets again. Those doctors views as to their diagnoses 202 00:13:25.480 --> 00:13:29.840 of Ross. One of our doctors diagnosed Ross as having 203 00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:36.279 a narcissistic personality and being insane. Another doctor diagnosed Ross 204 00:13:36.519 --> 00:13:42.360 as having a mixed personality disorder with features of MPD. 205 00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:48.600 A third doctor, who was our psychologists, actually dinoses Fross 206 00:13:49.039 --> 00:13:54.840 as suffering from MPD based upon both clinical diagnosis and 207 00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:59.639 testing that these psychologists had done with Ross. It was 208 00:13:59.679 --> 00:14:04.039 that psychologist, doctor Ralph Fish, with whom I relied on 209 00:14:04.679 --> 00:14:08.039 for the most part, because he was the most knowledgeable 210 00:14:08.360 --> 00:14:12.679 of all of our experts regarding the diagnosis. He had 211 00:14:12.759 --> 00:14:16.519 made it years before in a previous case. He had 212 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:21.799 an abundance of literature regarding the diagnosis. He discussed the 213 00:14:21.840 --> 00:14:26.519 reasons for his findings with us, and I dove into 214 00:14:26.600 --> 00:14:31.639 that information head first, with as many pieces of literature 215 00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:35.440 and data that I could in order to understand more 216 00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:37.080 fully the diagnosis. 217 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:41.440 You write about the extraordinary meeting you have with Ross 218 00:14:41.960 --> 00:14:45.080 and with your partner, Walter. Can you tell us about 219 00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:50.240 this experience and tell us about the plan to videotape Ross. 220 00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:53.200 One of the aspects of our defense was to review 221 00:14:53.279 --> 00:14:58.919 all the discovery material that the police had amassed regarding 222 00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:03.600 Ross the case against him. So Walter and I, after 223 00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:07.440 we had spoken to our experts, including this doctor Fish, 224 00:15:07.720 --> 00:15:11.200 went to the police department to review all the material. 225 00:15:11.720 --> 00:15:15.080 There was a smoking gun piece of evidence, which was 226 00:15:15.159 --> 00:15:22.120 a black suitcase filled with various personal items, including driver's 227 00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:26.360 license of his mother, of his father of Ross, a 228 00:15:26.440 --> 00:15:31.000 thirty eight caliber Rossy pistol bullets for the weapon. All 229 00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:34.759 the kinds of things that would tie individual to the 230 00:15:34.840 --> 00:15:39.279 murder were in that suitcase the weapon and the bullets 231 00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:44.240 found in the suitcase matched the bullets uncovered from the 232 00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:49.279 Carlson the students during their autopsy. So, after that review 233 00:15:49.320 --> 00:15:52.720 of evidence, which was at the police station where Ross 234 00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:55.799 was detained in jail, Walter and I went back to 235 00:15:55.960 --> 00:15:58.840 the jail to talk to Ross to let him know 236 00:15:58.919 --> 00:16:02.799 about the reasons, results of our interviews with our experts, 237 00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:05.879 as well as the evidence that we saw a masked 238 00:16:05.879 --> 00:16:10.240 by the police. And Ross began discussing aspects of his 239 00:16:10.759 --> 00:16:14.480 mental state, and he began discussing other parts of him 240 00:16:14.840 --> 00:16:19.279 and included names that he discussed with us and revealed 241 00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:24.840 as Steve Justin and other personalities whom doctor Fish had 242 00:16:24.879 --> 00:16:29.159 told us about, but whom Ross never had revealed himself 243 00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:33.039 to us. So the first time that Ross was providing 244 00:16:33.159 --> 00:16:38.519 us with informatory information to some degree of his illness, 245 00:16:39.279 --> 00:16:41.720 I took out a piece of paper and I said 246 00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:44.919 to him, you have an idea of how many different 247 00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:48.360 parts of you or personalities exist, And he said, yeah, 248 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:52.879 I believe I do. I believe there are nine different personalities. 249 00:16:53.120 --> 00:16:55.240 And I said, can you write on the sheet of 250 00:16:55.240 --> 00:16:57.919 paper what the names of them are? And he drew 251 00:16:58.080 --> 00:17:04.359 a diagram, which had three levels of names on it. 252 00:17:04.759 --> 00:17:08.759 There was the first level Justin Steve. There was a 253 00:17:08.839 --> 00:17:13.920 next level of Blue, Gray, Michael Stacy. There was a 254 00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:18.519 next level of Norman, and Black. And Ross described these 255 00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:25.319 levels of personalities as Ross, Justin and Steve as being 256 00:17:25.640 --> 00:17:30.599 the capable personalities or aspects of the some of his parts. 257 00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:36.079 Gray and Blue were the incapable parts of his persona, 258 00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:41.440 and Norman and Black well what Ross described as the Antichrist, 259 00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:45.039 or the bad persons of the some of his parts. 260 00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:53.720 So he constructed this diagram described these various personalities. A 261 00:17:53.799 --> 00:17:57.119 half hour or forty minutes went by. I put the 262 00:17:57.240 --> 00:18:02.680 diagram in my suitcase. Before Walter and I left the jail, 263 00:18:02.920 --> 00:18:06.319 I said, by the way, Ross, just for my own purposes, 264 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:08.799 I'm going to give you a second piece of paper. 265 00:18:09.079 --> 00:18:14.039 Can you again write the construct the construct of personalities 266 00:18:14.079 --> 00:18:17.160 that you had written to me before? He said sure, 267 00:18:17.880 --> 00:18:21.599 and he did it in exactly the same way as 268 00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:25.240 he had drawn before. As we left the jail, my 269 00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:29.519 mentor looked at me with some look of disagreement and said, 270 00:18:29.559 --> 00:18:32.119 I know what you did, David. He said, the client 271 00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:35.759 may think that you didn't trust him by asking him 272 00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:40.160 to rewrite a configuration, and I said Walter, I needed, 273 00:18:40.279 --> 00:18:43.720 for my own purposes to believe that what he was 274 00:18:43.759 --> 00:18:47.680 telling us was credible. And now I'm convinced that it is. 275 00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:50.119 Let's use this as an opportunity to stop for a 276 00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:51.400 second for these messages. 277 00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:53.480 Hey, Guaid is a Ryan. I'm not sure if you 278 00:18:53.480 --> 00:18:55.240 know this about me, but I'm a bit of a 279 00:18:55.279 --> 00:18:57.240 fun fanatic when I can. I like to work, but 280 00:18:57.279 --> 00:18:59.440 I like fun too. It's a thing. And now the 281 00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:01.279 truth is out up there, I can tell you about 282 00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:04.240 my favorite place to have fun, Chumba Casino. They have 283 00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:07.079 hundreds of social casino style games to choose from, with 284 00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:11.359 new games released each week. You can play for free anytime, anywhere, 285 00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:14.319 and each day brings a new chance to collect daily bonuses. 286 00:19:14.440 --> 00:19:16.960 So join me and the fun. Sign up now at 287 00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:20.960 chumbacasino dot com. Don were necessary daily where everybody lost 288 00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:22.160 in terms conditions eighteen plus. 289 00:19:22.839 --> 00:19:27.039 Now you have a doctor asking Ross questions, but a 290 00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:30.240 little bit to your surprise, he is asking Ross if 291 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:34.200 there's other characters that will emerge. Tell us about this 292 00:19:34.359 --> 00:19:36.559 incredible experience that you witnessed. 293 00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:39.200 After Walter and I had that meeting with Ross at 294 00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:43.240 the jail and these different names of these personalities as 295 00:19:43.319 --> 00:19:47.000 close to us as well as their features, and as 296 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:53.720 we learned more information about how these personalities manifest themselves 297 00:19:54.119 --> 00:19:59.039 from the jailers who observed Ross's behavior, it dawned on us, 298 00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:01.319 I mean, you meet him altered that we had to 299 00:20:01.400 --> 00:20:07.200 find a way to present this disorder to a jury 300 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:10.559 would be seated and judging whether or not Ross was 301 00:20:10.599 --> 00:20:14.599 insane at the time of the crime. So it dawned 302 00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:16.640 on me that the best way to do that was 303 00:20:16.680 --> 00:20:21.839 the videotape a conversation between Ross and our doctors to 304 00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:26.440 see if these personalities would emerge during the interview process. 305 00:20:26.839 --> 00:20:30.000 If they did, then we'd make a decision about whether 306 00:20:30.039 --> 00:20:32.599 or not to show them to a jury. If they 307 00:20:32.680 --> 00:20:36.200 didn't emerge, we didn't have to disclose to anyone that 308 00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:39.559 we had conducted this interview, so there was no fould, 309 00:20:39.640 --> 00:20:43.720 no harm done if nothing positive emerged. So we had 310 00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:47.960 a session in jail where we had one of our doctors, 311 00:20:48.160 --> 00:20:53.480 Robert Fairburn, in whom Ross established a great report, sitting 312 00:20:53.559 --> 00:20:57.519 with Ross to interview him with a videographer there with 313 00:20:57.599 --> 00:21:00.359 me and Walter sitting in the room along with the doctor. 314 00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:04.640 Fairburn and Ross. Ross had been alerted by doctor Fairburn 315 00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:07.480 what the purpose of the interview would be, and he 316 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:12.720 Doctor Fairburn began asking Ross questions, some of which were 317 00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:17.319 to whom am I speaking? And Ross initially announced, you're 318 00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:20.359 talking to Justin. Now, that's the first time I ever 319 00:21:20.440 --> 00:21:26.000 heard Ross respond in that fashion by saying, in response 320 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:29.720 to a question, so was everybody's responding to doctor Fairburn 321 00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:33.839 that you are talking to Ross? The client said, you're 322 00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:38.720 talking to Justin. Doctor Fairburn then asked Justin to discuss 323 00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:44.400 what Justin's features were as a sixteen year old social butterfly, 324 00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:49.200 bone vivant, someone who handles all the social aspects of 325 00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:54.160 the various personalities. As the interview progressed, Ross then switched 326 00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:58.799 from Justin the personality called Steve, who described what his 327 00:21:58.920 --> 00:22:02.279 features were only a forty two year old who took 328 00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:05.680 care of the intellectual aspects, what the sum of the 329 00:22:05.720 --> 00:22:10.519 parts were all about. After Steve was talking to doctor Fairburn, 330 00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:16.240 eventually another personality, Norman emerged. Norman was a street punk, 331 00:22:16.519 --> 00:22:19.640 someone who took talked like a hoodlum on the street, 332 00:22:19.960 --> 00:22:23.359 someone whom you might see from a gangbanger or what 333 00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:27.839 have you. And Norman was a foul mouth, cigarette smoking, 334 00:22:28.279 --> 00:22:31.559 rough talking kind of a guy, and the only one 335 00:22:31.599 --> 00:22:38.039 of the personalities who actually smoked. The other personalities, Ross, Steve, Justin, 336 00:22:38.440 --> 00:22:41.400 and Norman was the only personality who smoked. The other 337 00:22:41.480 --> 00:22:44.119 ones did not. And the way some of the other 338 00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:48.960 personalities knew that Norman had been what we called out 339 00:22:49.319 --> 00:22:53.559 both quote, namely he was the one doing the acting 340 00:22:54.279 --> 00:22:58.039 was on another personality such as Steve rid Justin may 341 00:22:58.079 --> 00:23:02.640 have felt or tasted a cigarette taste in his mouth. 342 00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:06.720 So if Justin all of a sudden emerged after Norman 343 00:23:07.079 --> 00:23:10.400 and when Norman was out Norman was smoking, Justin would 344 00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:14.079 say I think Norman was out, and he'd be asked, 345 00:23:14.279 --> 00:23:16.799 how do you know that, and he would say, because 346 00:23:16.839 --> 00:23:21.359 I feel like taste cigarette smoke. Also emerging during that 347 00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:25.759 session with doctor Fairburn was a weeping six year old 348 00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:30.119 who didn't talk. He just sat there and cowered and cried. 349 00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:33.119 And it was incredible to sit in the same room 350 00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:37.839 as this client, whom I had only known as Ross, 351 00:23:38.039 --> 00:23:41.039 and seeing him all of a sudden power and begin 352 00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:46.880 crying inconsolably. The last personality who emerged during that session 353 00:23:47.000 --> 00:23:52.559 with doctor Fairburn was Black. Black was the demonic, ruthless 354 00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:57.240 protector of all the personalities and would be able to 355 00:23:57.279 --> 00:24:02.960 defend against any attack, an assault or otherwise against any 356 00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:06.680 of the other personalities and which and protect them and 357 00:24:06.839 --> 00:24:10.920 fend off the attacker by his might. And Black emerged 358 00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:17.039 during that session with doctor Fairburn by ripping away restraints 359 00:24:17.319 --> 00:24:21.599 that doctor Fairburn had tied on Ross's arms and feets, 360 00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:24.960 knowing that he doctor Fairburn was going to try to 361 00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:29.200 get Black to emerge, and he doctor Fairburn wanted some 362 00:24:29.240 --> 00:24:34.519 protection with these restraints if Black in fact emerged with 363 00:24:34.599 --> 00:24:39.960 the restraints on, Black eventually emerged and freed himself with 364 00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:45.839 his might from these restraints. After that, another personality emerged 365 00:24:46.039 --> 00:24:50.319 from Black's presence and realized that Black had been out 366 00:24:50.599 --> 00:24:55.000 because that new personality had a metallic taste in his mouth, 367 00:24:55.720 --> 00:24:59.079 and that meant to the personality, who I believe was Steve, 368 00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:00.759 that Black had emerged. 369 00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:05.200 You talk about the characteristics of multiple personality disorder. What 370 00:25:05.240 --> 00:25:09.799 I'm talking about is the hypnotize ability and also the 371 00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:14.279 aspect of amnesia between personalities. Can you explain how the 372 00:25:14.319 --> 00:25:18.359 doctor explained how he went from one personality to another, 373 00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:23.119 but also what did you witness yourself in that transformation 374 00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:26.039 from one personality to the other. What did you witness 375 00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:26.680 ross do? 376 00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:31.799 The nature of the illness is that the individual, in 377 00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:39.960 order to protect himself from external stress, danger, unpredictability, or 378 00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:45.920 other events, will switch from one personality to the other 379 00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:52.000 for the purpose of adapting to the environmental or internal 380 00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:57.519 stressful situation that has occurred. For example, the illness usually 381 00:25:57.920 --> 00:26:03.519 against developing at an early age. It develops usually from 382 00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:09.119 repeated acts of abuse, and often from repeated acts of 383 00:26:09.240 --> 00:26:14.039 sexual abuse, and often from other kinds of horrific kinds 384 00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:19.880 of abuse. Oftentimes the perpetrator as a caregiver for someone 385 00:26:20.240 --> 00:26:24.920 whose responsibility is to care and love for that child, 386 00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:30.440 so as the recipient of the abuse and the anger 387 00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:36.000 and sadness that befalls that individual. What happens is that 388 00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:42.599 the child, psychologically, to avoid experiencing the continual pain of 389 00:26:42.759 --> 00:26:46.640 anger and sadness from the abuse, develops another side of 390 00:26:46.720 --> 00:26:49.400 him which is a happy side. As a happy side 391 00:26:49.559 --> 00:26:53.759 because he doesn't want the caregiver to know that he 392 00:26:53.960 --> 00:26:57.559 the child is suffering and is angry. And the only 393 00:26:57.640 --> 00:27:02.440 way the good and the bad side can coexist is 394 00:27:02.519 --> 00:27:07.039 if both sides or either side does not know what 395 00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:12.400 has happened to the other. So psychologically, the brain develops 396 00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:16.559 a wall of amnesia between the happy between the two 397 00:27:16.599 --> 00:27:21.400 different parts of the individual, and that phenomenon, that psychological 398 00:27:21.480 --> 00:27:26.519 phenomenon where the wall of amnesia is constructed happens with 399 00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:32.359 each successive ecostate might be formed within the individual. Now 400 00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:34.680 the way that I see them, or the way that 401 00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:38.960