1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,640 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,079 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 13 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 4: Welcome to Mind of a Murder. 14 00:00:43,679 --> 00:00:45,759 Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. 15 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 4: Well, we're joined today by Connor McCarthy and Patrick Rogers 16 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,079 here to talk to us about the brand news free 17 00:00:52,079 --> 00:00:56,000 part documentary series The Scream Murder, a true teen horror 18 00:00:56,079 --> 00:00:59,560 story now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus. 19 00:01:00,159 --> 00:01:03,439 Thanks for taking the time today, Thanks for thanks for 20 00:01:03,439 --> 00:01:06,519 having us as a dedicated fan of the Scream series 21 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,040 of horror movies. There's no way I could resist that title. 22 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:12,040 Were you guys hoping to pull in sands of the 23 00:01:12,079 --> 00:01:14,359 movie specifically, or was that just the best title for 24 00:01:14,439 --> 00:01:14,920 this case. 25 00:01:15,719 --> 00:01:17,879 Speaker 5: It's a part of the story, and it's a big 26 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:18,879 part of the story. 27 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 6: How much was it influence so influential. 28 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,079 Speaker 5: To the crime itself is up for debate, and I 29 00:01:25,079 --> 00:01:28,519 think we're still talking about that twenty years later. Teenageerators 30 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:30,719 commit a crime horror philm obsess. 31 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 6: We can't ignore that. 32 00:01:32,599 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 5: So clearly that was probably the most wrapped way in 33 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:37,680 we want people to watch. Obviously tune in, but this 34 00:01:37,719 --> 00:01:40,400 is obviously is a much more complicated case than a 35 00:01:40,439 --> 00:01:43,799 copycat kill, which is far from the truth when it 36 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:45,480 came to this with this crime. 37 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,719 Speaker 6: And if you watch on the tape that the boys made, 38 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:53,799 they referenced the movie Scream, of course, and there if 39 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,840 you see the clip where Brian's playing drums, the movie 40 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,319 Scream is on the screen. He's playing drums. So, like 41 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,400 Connor says, is there a lot more to this? Yes, 42 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:06,879 there is is Scream a part of it. Oh, yes 43 00:02:06,959 --> 00:02:09,199 it is. There is a big part of it here. 44 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 2: So walk us through just the basics of the case. 45 00:02:13,599 --> 00:02:15,879 For folks that might not be familiar with it or 46 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:18,520 haven't seen a new documentary yet. 47 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:24,039 Speaker 6: Okay, So in two thousand and six, September twenty seconds, 48 00:02:25,039 --> 00:02:29,280 two homeowners from Pocatello, Idaho return home from a three 49 00:02:29,319 --> 00:02:34,719 day vacation and they find on the floor stabbed to 50 00:02:34,759 --> 00:02:38,039 death Cassie Joe Stoddard, who was house sitting for them 51 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,879 when they went on this vacation. And that's how everything starts. 52 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:45,800 So the day call nine one one and an investigation begins. 53 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:51,000 Cassie is a sixteen year old high school student. She 54 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,360 was just their house sitting. There was nothing else happening 55 00:02:54,400 --> 00:03:00,000 at the house. Upon investigation, they realized. The investigators discovered 56 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:04,560 that Cassie's boyfriend, Matt, had come over to keep her company, 57 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:08,199 essentially while she was house sitting. So they went to 58 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:12,280 question Matt about this, and he says while he was 59 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,919 there and at the house, some strange things had happened. 60 00:03:17,199 --> 00:03:19,560 The lights had gone off and on, they heard some 61 00:03:19,719 --> 00:03:22,840 glass breaking. The lights stayed off for a little while, 62 00:03:22,879 --> 00:03:26,039 then they came back on. They heard something in the basement. 63 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:29,159 They were afraid to go down there, so Matt was 64 00:03:29,199 --> 00:03:31,159 not allowed to sleep over, so his mom comes and 65 00:03:31,199 --> 00:03:35,639 gets him. He leaves. Cassie's fine when he leaves, but 66 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,840 he also tells police that there were two other visitors 67 00:03:38,879 --> 00:03:42,599 that night, two of their classmates, Brian Draper and Tory Adamchek, 68 00:03:42,879 --> 00:03:45,879 also Bull sixteen. They had come over because they had 69 00:03:45,919 --> 00:03:47,960 heard Cassie was going to be house sitting. Maybe there'd 70 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:52,199 be a little party. There wasn't, so Matt tells the 71 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,520 investigators about these two other kids. They go to question them. 72 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,319 They admit that they were there, Brian and Torrey Bull. 73 00:03:58,439 --> 00:04:01,080 They were there, and they said that they had left 74 00:04:01,319 --> 00:04:04,439 and they'd gone to the movies. Now this is where 75 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,560 another place where the movies play come into play. They 76 00:04:07,599 --> 00:04:10,120 were both horror movie fans. They were out of horror 77 00:04:10,159 --> 00:04:13,400 movie and when the police say what was the movie about, 78 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,680 neither of them can remember what it was about. So 79 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:21,079 police immediately start to unravel their story. Their alibi falls apart. 80 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:26,279 They tell another lie, also disproven. Eventually, Brian Draper comes 81 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,639 in and confesses that he and Tory actually left the house, 82 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:34,319 came back later and murdered Cassie. He also directs police 83 00:04:34,439 --> 00:04:38,680 to a spot outside Pocatello where they've buried the evidence 84 00:04:39,199 --> 00:04:45,000 knives clothes, masks, and a tape, and once they put 85 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,000 this tape in the case takes a gigantic turn when 86 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:48,920 they see what's on it. 87 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 4: That tape was chilling, Yes, it was. It was chilling. 88 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:01,639 Speaker 6: You guys are steeped in true crime. You've done countless 89 00:05:01,639 --> 00:05:04,439 hours and so of Connor and I and we've never 90 00:05:04,519 --> 00:05:06,079 ever seen anything like that. 91 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 4: It's interesting. It did remind me a lot of the 92 00:05:08,759 --> 00:05:14,839 basement tapes from the two Columbine killers, Dylan Claybald and 93 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:19,279 Eric Harris, which obviously there are some similarities that the 94 00:05:19,319 --> 00:05:21,959 two killers in this case wanted to draw between themselves 95 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,360 and Eric and Dylan. So I'm wondering if maybe that's 96 00:05:24,399 --> 00:05:27,800 why they went to the links of making that tape. 97 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,560 But that tape was I was actually a little we 98 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:31,800 were watching it. I was like, are they going to 99 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:35,279 share the tape? I want to see it? And then yeah, 100 00:05:35,319 --> 00:05:36,800 but boy, I actually wish I hadn't. 101 00:05:37,199 --> 00:05:41,639 Speaker 6: Very very hard to watch. It's hard to believe your eyes. Actually, 102 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:43,360 it's hard to believe what you're seeing. 103 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 4: So how did you guys even hear about this case? 104 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:52,680 Because I went through the mental rolodex and I realized 105 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,120 I don't remember this case, and it seems like one 106 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:57,639 I would have heard about. So where did it come 107 00:05:57,680 --> 00:05:58,319 on your radar? 108 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 6: Like I said earlier, it happened in September twenty second 109 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,040 in two thousand and six, and I found out about 110 00:06:06,079 --> 00:06:10,720 it almost like right away. I was working in true crime, 111 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,120 and I think I heard about it by Halloween because 112 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:18,800 they got around there. They got arrested pretty fast. I 113 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:22,279 did a lot of research back then, and in two 114 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,399 thousand and nine I did an hour long documentary for 115 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:29,279 MSNBC on this same case. So I've known about it 116 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:32,959 since basically the day it happened. It just came on 117 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,000 my radar. It may sound odd to listeners, but I'm 118 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,879 just and so is Connor. We're constantly looking for something 119 00:06:40,319 --> 00:06:43,519 and you can get taken far Afield and Pocatello, Idaho. 120 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,639 It's nowhere near where I was living, but it came 121 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,680 on the radar and I immediately jumped on it for 122 00:06:49,759 --> 00:06:54,279 that MSNBC show. Yeah, and for me, it was over 123 00:06:54,319 --> 00:06:58,120 a year ago October twenty twenty four when Pat and 124 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,680 I started talking about the case, it had almost been 125 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,360 twenty years, reaching the twenty year anniversary to like I 126 00:07:05,399 --> 00:07:09,399 were an anniversary. It's September, and I the approach that 127 00:07:09,439 --> 00:07:12,360 I went in terms of reaching out was obviously to 128 00:07:12,879 --> 00:07:17,160 Cassie's family, but also so Brian and Tory's parents. I 129 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,279 felt that was a perspective that we don't hear from 130 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:21,360 very office. 131 00:07:21,759 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 5: And there are three families involved. Prefamilies were ruined in 132 00:07:25,279 --> 00:07:29,680 very different ways. The levels of catastrophe and what happens, 133 00:07:29,759 --> 00:07:34,600 particularly for siblings of Brian and Tory. The parents, people 134 00:07:34,639 --> 00:07:37,399 can lay blame on however they want. They didn't do enough, 135 00:07:37,439 --> 00:07:40,040 they did too much, but the siblings are people that 136 00:07:40,079 --> 00:07:42,800 are just they go down unfortunately, and some of them 137 00:07:42,839 --> 00:07:45,360 were in the same school that Brian and Tory were 138 00:07:45,399 --> 00:07:50,879 attending that echo, and I think it just it's illustrated 139 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:53,839 through our high school students. We bring on, the teachers, 140 00:07:53,839 --> 00:07:57,120 that we bring on the magnitude of this case, particularly 141 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,720 happening in the most formative point in these peoples lives 142 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,199 that they're going to remember forever, and as you see 143 00:08:03,319 --> 00:08:05,800 particularly something of that, the high school students were still 144 00:08:05,839 --> 00:08:07,879 struggling to this day. I don't think they could even 145 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,240 articulate the trauma that it really settled in, and for 146 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:13,079 a lot of them it's the first time they've publicly 147 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:15,959 spoken about that time in their life. High school was 148 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,399 over for a lot of them once this thing, once 149 00:08:18,439 --> 00:08:19,279 this murder occurred. 150 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 2: At the time you reached out to the families, had 151 00:08:23,839 --> 00:08:26,519 you too made the decision that you were definitely going 152 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:28,519 to do a documentary or did you want to wait 153 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:31,240 and see what kind of reaction you've got or if 154 00:08:31,279 --> 00:08:33,320 there was any interest or level of support. 155 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:39,559 Speaker 5: I think once Shannon said she'd be open to participating, 156 00:08:39,799 --> 00:08:41,240 and the thing that they wanted to talk about, we 157 00:08:41,279 --> 00:08:44,639 can talk about life without parole. Carry Draper came on board, 158 00:08:44,759 --> 00:08:48,840 and well, when one says yes, then the next one 159 00:08:48,919 --> 00:08:51,000 comes on and the next and we just started like 160 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,320 reaching out slowly to everybody, they knowing this was a 161 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:55,159 really difficult topic for a lot of people and not 162 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:56,519 a phone call that they're going to want to get 163 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:58,320 and be brought back to that time. 164 00:08:58,639 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 6: But then as we were moving forward and bad I 165 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:02,480 we didn't know where it was going to go. 166 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 5: We knew it was something worth doing because we always 167 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,879 ask ourselves, what is the purpose of this it is, Oh, 168 00:09:08,879 --> 00:09:12,559 it's this crazy crime, But we wanted something deeper than 169 00:09:12,879 --> 00:09:15,360 just retelling the story of a really terrible thing that 170 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:17,840 committed in small town I'm America. We wanted something to 171 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:19,840 have layers to it, and that's usually how we approach 172 00:09:19,879 --> 00:09:22,559 most of our projects. And the more people that we 173 00:09:22,639 --> 00:09:24,879 saw that were willing to come on, and really, I think, 174 00:09:25,159 --> 00:09:27,320 I think we have something that we can make and 175 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:32,519 turn it into a sprawling, three part twenty year saga 176 00:09:32,639 --> 00:09:35,200 of the events of September two thousand and six. 177 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 4: The fact that you were able to get the parents 178 00:09:39,039 --> 00:09:42,000 on was something that I was very interested in and 179 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,919 very impressed by. And I feel terrible for those parents, 180 00:09:46,159 --> 00:09:48,639 And I was really struck by the fact that Pam 181 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,120 Draper said in the very first episode that she still 182 00:09:52,159 --> 00:09:55,559 loves her son in spite of what he did. Did 183 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,799 you find that sentiment to be true not only for 184 00:09:58,879 --> 00:10:02,200 both sets of parents, but maybe for friends of the boys. 185 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:07,480 How did was there like a consensus of emotion across 186 00:10:07,519 --> 00:10:09,679 all the people who knew him or them? 187 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,399 Speaker 5: I'm sorry, I'm a parent of three, and so I 188 00:10:12,399 --> 00:10:16,279 can understand them. Think it's like just being able to 189 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,279 turn your back on your child. But that is the 190 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:23,360 greatest tennis of a parent, when your child commits the unforgiven. 191 00:10:24,279 --> 00:10:27,440 That was one thing that just in talking to him 192 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:29,799 who tried to stay is neutral and be fair to 193 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,360 them because they are stepping back out from the shadows, 194 00:10:32,519 --> 00:10:35,720 and they certainly were Pariah's back then and could be today. 195 00:10:35,759 --> 00:10:38,720 And it's a very controversial position I think they took. 196 00:10:38,799 --> 00:10:41,840 But their openness was extraordinary to say the least. And 197 00:10:41,879 --> 00:10:45,840 I know that this controversy that comes with that speaking 198 00:10:45,879 --> 00:10:48,759 to the Drapers in the Atom checks, but they certainly 199 00:10:48,799 --> 00:10:50,759 had enough conviction that they felt like it was worth 200 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,000 coming back out, knowing that the hate mail may come, 201 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,840 the emails, the text messages, and they just might find 202 00:10:56,879 --> 00:10:59,559 themselves right back where they were in two thousand and six. 203 00:10:59,639 --> 00:11:05,039 But the fact that they understand, I think the magnitude 204 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:08,159 of what their sons did. At the same time, they 205 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:11,080 still wanted to somehow have a relationship with them and 206 00:11:11,159 --> 00:11:14,399 be committed to them. But they definitely really conflicted, and 207 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:18,159 I think Pam and more so Carrie, how they're still 208 00:11:18,919 --> 00:11:22,360 struggling with where they need to be in all of this. 209 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:24,600 And I don't think they're ever going to fully know 210 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,080 where they are in terms of being a parent and 211 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:31,039 also being a parent and understanding losing a child to violence, 212 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:34,559 how devastating that would be. Carrie said, if I lost 213 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:36,720 one of my kids to that, I don't know what 214 00:11:36,759 --> 00:11:39,039 my position would be. It probably wouldn't be his position. 215 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:41,759 It is right now with trying to look at let's 216 00:11:41,799 --> 00:11:42,919 have maybe a second chance. 217 00:11:43,039 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 6: He's it's authority issue. 218 00:11:47,399 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 5: And for the students, we found still a lot of 219 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:56,200 shock and in some cases anger at what Brian and 220 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:00,559 Tory did and what they took away. Not only Cassie, Yeah, 221 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,519 was the thing they still are sore simple for, but 222 00:12:03,639 --> 00:12:06,480 in terms of the happiness and the homecoming and prom 223 00:12:06,519 --> 00:12:08,399 and football games and all those things that you're supposed 224 00:12:08,399 --> 00:12:10,080 to experience, for a lot of them, that all just 225 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:12,159 went away and they just didn't experience that. It was 226 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,360 just like some people left high school, they transferred and 227 00:12:14,399 --> 00:12:17,720 they couldn't stay there, and it's the ripple effect was wide. 228 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:20,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, We've talked about the ripple effect in the Colonial 229 00:12:20,879 --> 00:12:24,799 Parkway murders before, and actually, as you're laying out just 230 00:12:24,879 --> 00:12:30,080 the basics, one of the things I thought about was Pocatella, Idaho, 231 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:35,480 where I've never been, is a relatively small place, and 232 00:12:36,879 --> 00:12:40,879 I actually was thinking about that ripple effect and wondering 233 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:45,039 how many people just ended up leaving just to escape 234 00:12:45,159 --> 00:12:51,399 this horrific memory, which obviously continues to ripple to this day. 235 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 6: The Adam Chucks and the Drapers left. They don't live 236 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,720 there anymore, none of them. And they had other kids, 237 00:13:00,759 --> 00:13:05,600 I think Connor, they've all left. Yes, yeah, both sides. 238 00:13:05,759 --> 00:13:09,840 Both families left within a year to two years after 239 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:13,600 everything happened, as well as some students. Some some families 240 00:13:13,639 --> 00:13:17,039 that they moved to Boise, five hours away for schools. 241 00:13:17,519 --> 00:13:19,360 They got out, So a lot of people just had 242 00:13:19,399 --> 00:13:22,240 to just walk away from the lens that they used 243 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:24,480 to know. You know what was interesting is when we 244 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,360 went there, you talk about the ripple effect and it 245 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,000 was twenty years ago, and you take out the camera, 246 00:13:30,039 --> 00:13:32,039 you take out the tripod, there's a bunch of guys 247 00:13:32,039 --> 00:13:35,120 getting out of a van. Of course everyone's going to say, hey, 248 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,720 what are you guys doing? And we would tell them 249 00:13:37,919 --> 00:13:42,960 and every single person that we talked to, so all 250 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:45,440 I know about that. My daughter went to school with them, 251 00:13:45,519 --> 00:13:48,320 my cousin played in the band with one. Every single 252 00:13:48,399 --> 00:13:53,519 person had they cut some sort of connection either direct 253 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,000 or indirect to the people directly involved, the Adam, Jack 254 00:13:57,039 --> 00:14:02,399 Strapers and the Stoddards, everyone every the sixteen year old waitress, 255 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,480 the homeowner where we asked to shoot at her house. 256 00:14:05,639 --> 00:14:08,759 Everybody had some kind of connection in this town. So 257 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:12,320 that's your ripple effect, is that it was like yesterday 258 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:16,399 for everyone we talked to, you know. 259 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:21,559 Speaker 4: And Cassie certainly seemed to be beloved by most anyone 260 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:26,679 and everyone in that town. So it isn't just it 261 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:31,600 isn't just the murder, it's the actual victim themselves. Can 262 00:14:31,639 --> 00:14:33,600 you tell us a little bit about Cassie, Joe, I 263 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,879 don't want her to get lost in her own murder story. 264 00:14:36,919 --> 00:14:39,559 Tell us a little bit about Cassie. 265 00:14:39,879 --> 00:14:43,039 Speaker 5: I think Cassie is it was kind of person that 266 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,480 everybody wanted to be friends with. And I know that 267 00:14:46,519 --> 00:14:48,840 sounds like a cliche, but it's like, look at all 268 00:14:48,879 --> 00:14:51,360 of the clicks in high school, the jocks, the punks, 269 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:55,399 the staters, the freaks, the nerds, brom queens. Cassie was 270 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,480 in an artist she's so shooing out with the art kids, 271 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,879 but also with the stater and her boyfriend to play football, 272 00:15:03,039 --> 00:15:05,399 So it seemed like she had a connection with a 273 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:10,519 lot of different groups, but was reserver an introvert in 274 00:15:10,559 --> 00:15:15,360 a lot of ways, so she didn't beautiful, was just 275 00:15:15,399 --> 00:15:19,200 a stand out, Like she was such a unique persona 276 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,919 in person in that school, and that was made it 277 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:27,639 even more shocking and baffling, like why this person was 278 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,879 part of the mean group of the bullies or an 279 00:15:30,879 --> 00:15:33,480 outsider in any way. It seemed like she was cool 280 00:15:33,519 --> 00:15:36,799 with everybody, So that what made the crime even more 281 00:15:36,919 --> 00:15:40,240 senseless to target someone like her. 282 00:15:40,799 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 6: I spoke to her mom. Her mom died in twenty 283 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:47,360 twenty two, but I interviewed her earlier to get a 284 00:15:47,399 --> 00:15:52,240 sense of Cassie and straight a student, nobs all a's 285 00:15:52,279 --> 00:15:56,360 and very focused and a little bit maybe on the 286 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:01,399 serious side, and she had goals. And her mom told me, 287 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,840 this is heartbreaking. She wanted to be a lawyer and 288 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,120 a prosecutor, and she said, Mom, I want to put 289 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,559 the bad guys away. Wow, And that's something that's stuck 290 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:11,960 with me. 291 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 4: I like the fact that you made sure that Cassie 292 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:23,799 did not get lost in the hullabaloo of the trial 293 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:28,240 and all of the attendant issues that came with it, 294 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:29,519 but that we're going to, of course get to you 295 00:16:29,559 --> 00:16:31,720 in a couple of minutes. That's the life without parole 296 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:34,360 question and so forth. But I liked the fact that, 297 00:16:34,559 --> 00:16:37,720 unlike a lot of other documentaries, you didn't let Cassie 298 00:16:37,919 --> 00:16:41,080 get lost in the middle of it. The love for 299 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,440 her in the town really it stayed through all three 300 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,519 of the episodes. So I really applaud and appreciate you 301 00:16:47,559 --> 00:16:51,000 guys for making sure that Cassie was never lost in 302 00:16:51,039 --> 00:16:53,120 the fray, and I think you did a beautiful job 303 00:16:53,159 --> 00:16:53,360 with that. 304 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:55,679 Speaker 6: Thank you. 305 00:16:55,799 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 5: It's important when we try to get as many voices 306 00:16:58,399 --> 00:17:01,480 and sign as many moments back then the kids with 307 00:17:01,639 --> 00:17:05,359 painting the rock and the funeral service is heartbreaking, but 308 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,079 I think anybody who's watching it, it can all go back 309 00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:10,279 to their high school years and couldn't imagine going through 310 00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:12,680 that when you go into that classroom and that desk 311 00:17:12,799 --> 00:17:15,759 chair is empty, and it's such a profound loss. 312 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 2: One of the things I was struck by was looking 313 00:17:19,039 --> 00:17:22,920 through your cast list. How many different students you were 314 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:27,319 able to get to participate in this thing. Did you 315 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,440 run into a lot of nos? Or was everybody pretty 316 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,599 much willing to step forward now that some time had 317 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:34,119 gone by. 318 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:37,839 Speaker 5: There were definitely some nose, some that just didn't want 319 00:17:37,839 --> 00:17:39,440 to be a part of it, Some didn't feel like 320 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:43,920 they could go back to that time, some who had 321 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,000 been featured in the local news. We have to get 322 00:17:47,039 --> 00:17:50,839 clearance because they were the miners at the time, and 323 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,319 they said, coming on cameraon talking about this is not 324 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,240 something I want to do, but I'll give you my 325 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:00,680 blessing to use that interview that I did thand and six. 326 00:18:01,039 --> 00:18:05,279 So yeah, I think we've got more participation than expected 327 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:09,720 because of how sensitive the situation was, and we wanted 328 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:11,880 to make sure it felt well rounded and not only 329 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,799 be before whould speak for Cassie, but those who knew 330 00:18:14,839 --> 00:18:18,480 Brian and Toy and before and the after. Because I 331 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:20,839 think everybody was sortally blindsided by this. 332 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,799 Speaker 6: You did get a lot of yeses, And I think, 333 00:18:25,039 --> 00:18:27,519 and this is just speculation, I think the fact that 334 00:18:27,519 --> 00:18:30,359 it was twenty years had gone by and they were 335 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:36,839 now adults and they could speak more rationally than of 336 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,559 the moment where you're just shell shocked and emotional. I 337 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,079 think that was part of why so many people agreed 338 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:46,440 to do it, because they had this time to move 339 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,839 on and reflect and have now they have kids. I 340 00:18:49,839 --> 00:18:51,559 think that made it a little bit easier. 341 00:18:53,759 --> 00:18:56,640 Speaker 4: So let's talk about Brian and Tory for a minute 342 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,680 and the things that they ended up being ultimately very 343 00:18:59,759 --> 00:19:02,359 much influenced by and those are two of the things 344 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:06,559 that I would consider probably the largest cultural touchstones from 345 00:19:06,759 --> 00:19:09,640 the late nineties early two thousands. They were influenced by 346 00:19:09,799 --> 00:19:13,559 the horror series Scream, which said the seventh movie is 347 00:19:13,599 --> 00:19:17,119 about to come out this weekend, and then that horrific 348 00:19:17,279 --> 00:19:20,640 mass shooting at Columbine High School, which I remember very 349 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:22,799 well because it was my senior year in high school. 350 00:19:23,519 --> 00:19:26,599 Did Try and Brian ever explain in any of the 351 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,480 interviews that they did, either with police or with y'all, 352 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:33,759 why were they so fixated on those two things in particular, 353 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:35,240 Scream and Columbine. 354 00:19:37,599 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 5: I asked both of them about Scream, and neither of 355 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:48,240 them really wanted to put a lot of emphasis on that. Obviously, 356 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:51,160 as Pat pointed out, it's going to be just like Scream. 357 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,359 They stand the tape, Their locker room is lined with 358 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:55,640 horror film posters. 359 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 6: Tory has a shrine of the Michael Myers mass. 360 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:03,519 Speaker 5: Brian is watching the original Scream opening scene, which in 361 00:20:03,559 --> 00:20:06,599 a lot of ways they basically mimic. They would mimic 362 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:11,079 ten hours after later that day, the Columbine. I think 363 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:17,559 for Brian, the Columbine was something that this, as he 364 00:20:17,799 --> 00:20:20,640 called it, a sort of pollution that was taking over 365 00:20:21,079 --> 00:20:25,559 his teenage brain. And then these other stink, these other stimulants, 366 00:20:25,559 --> 00:20:29,160 whether they're horror films or their homemade movies, would be 367 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,839 as soon to be school shooters. He became addicted to it, 368 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,079 and it was just absorbing it, absorbing it, and all 369 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:37,759 this darkness was coming in. And then Tory on the 370 00:20:37,799 --> 00:20:40,680 other side, he wanted to be a film director. In 371 00:20:40,839 --> 00:20:42,680 one point he said, I think I wanted to do 372 00:20:42,759 --> 00:20:44,920 something what you're doing now, So you see that kind 373 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,880 of twisted irony. But he was living in a sort 374 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,319 of a darkness in another realm. When we talked about 375 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,559 he gets into the more existential crisis of a teenager. 376 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,720 But they the tape, Why did they make the tape? 377 00:21:00,079 --> 00:21:04,519 It related to their horror fandom? Is it related to 378 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:10,359 the Columbine home movies? The basement tapes? Was Brian following 379 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,400 that because these guys chronicled what they were going to do, 380 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,680 and that's essentially what Brian and Tory do. But that 381 00:21:16,759 --> 00:21:19,599 also element of wanting to write a screenplay and wanting 382 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,319 to direct a slasher movie, all these things they have 383 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,119 talked about to police. Definitely cannot be ignored. So it's 384 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,599 almost the tape sometimes that's what they do that we've 385 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,599 been struggling with what is the real purpose of the tape? 386 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,440 And I think Brian tore you today when I questioned 387 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,599 them about that, they didn't have a clear reason. There 388 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,920 was a fantasy, there was a heightened exaggeration of their 389 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,079 personas they were playing parts. So what part was real, 390 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,680 what wasn't? What was play acting or what was clear 391 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:52,720 methodical planning to commit first degree murder? 392 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, one of my reactions was, and I just I 393 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:03,160 couldn't get over what kind of idiot makes a tape 394 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,920 like this which is going to completely incriminate the two 395 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,680 of them. That part was a real struggle for me. 396 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 6: They it's hard to explain a lot of it, and 397 00:22:12,519 --> 00:22:16,079 that is one of the most hard things to explain 398 00:22:17,039 --> 00:22:20,079 if you watch the tape. They also had like fantasies 399 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:24,240 about becoming famous serial killers and who's going to play 400 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,480 them in the movie and can I control my own likeness? 401 00:22:27,519 --> 00:22:32,599 It was like it was lunacy and was it They're 402 00:22:32,599 --> 00:22:34,920 just teenagers. They don't know what they're doing, maybe, but 403 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,039 they sure knew what they were doing when they went 404 00:22:38,039 --> 00:22:41,319 to that house where Cassie was house sitting that night. Yeah, 405 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,759 you're right, what kind of person slash idiot would make 406 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,680 some here's the evidence police. You can tell they weren't 407 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,799 really thinking that. Clearly they had their kill list. Oh, 408 00:22:52,839 --> 00:22:55,359 here's the other people. We're gonna kill our other classmates. 409 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:59,480 It's obviously something is broken in their brains that they 410 00:22:59,559 --> 00:23:01,680 thought we're gonna be able to get away with this 411 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:04,200 b We're gonna be able to tape it all and see, 412 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,640 we're gonna be famous serial killers. It is part of 413 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,880 what makes this different from everything else, is this tape 414 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,759 and where it came from inside them. 415 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,799 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind Over Murder. We'll be right back 416 00:23:18,039 --> 00:23:25,359 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 417 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:26,279 Mindover Murder. 418 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 4: When I was watching the first episode, there's a line 419 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,279 in the first Scream movie that I kept hearing over 420 00:23:34,319 --> 00:23:35,839 and over again, and I finally to go look it 421 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,359 up to see what the actual quote wise. And it 422 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,799 is when Billy and Sue are talking to Sydney, who 423 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,680 for anybody who's not familiar with the series, Sydney's the 424 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,480 Final Girl, and Sidney basically says, you guys have seen 425 00:23:48,519 --> 00:23:51,160 one two manute horror movies, and Billy says, sid, don't 426 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,880 you blame the movies. Movies don't create psychos, Movies make 427 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:59,759 psychos more creative. Do you think in any way Brian 428 00:24:00,079 --> 00:24:03,440 and Tory were rinping off that line when they went 429 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:07,400 about designing their crime this way making the basement tape. 430 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:09,640 Do you feel like that kind of holds true for 431 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,279 these guys, that the movies actually made them more creative. 432 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,559 Speaker 6: When there's a section on the tape where they're talking 433 00:24:16,599 --> 00:24:21,359 about how bad they are and Brian says, we're sick psychopaths, 434 00:24:22,519 --> 00:24:25,400 they knew the first part of the first part of 435 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,279 that the movies don't make psychopaths. They knew they or 436 00:24:29,319 --> 00:24:32,519 at least they were portraying themselves as psychopaths. And did 437 00:24:32,519 --> 00:24:37,119 they get inspiration your question is to make them more creative? 438 00:24:38,279 --> 00:24:40,720 I don't know, but it seems like they did get 439 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,480 some inspiration from it, so they acknowledged both parts of 440 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,640 that quote. That's very interesting you picked that out because 441 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:52,200 in one sense they call themselves psychopaths. We're bad, says Tory, 442 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,480 we're sick psychopaths. So they had that part covered, and 443 00:24:55,519 --> 00:25:01,039 then the movies. Clearly that was some influence now more creative. 444 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:07,279 Here's one thing to consider. Corey made home videos, home 445 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:13,240 movies of him of a masked killer stabbing. It was 446 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:17,319 another little kid with a fake night. So like the creativity, 447 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,039 maybe that was also inside them too. But it is 448 00:25:20,079 --> 00:25:23,039 an interesting thing to think about. How Connor has seen 449 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,200 every horror movie there is to my knowledge, he has 450 00:25:26,279 --> 00:25:29,680 not yet stabbed anyone. So there's only so much we 451 00:25:29,799 --> 00:25:34,039 can say, look at these brutal horror movies that have 452 00:25:34,839 --> 00:25:37,279 influenced these kids. But they were aware of all of it. 453 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,680 And Brian Tory actually shared locker. That's their shared locker, 454 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,759 all those stickers, and one of the investigators that went 455 00:25:44,799 --> 00:25:49,880 to Brian's house said there were movie posters, horror movie posters, 456 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:54,160 DVD's all over his room. It had some effects, that's 457 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:54,680 for sure. 458 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,319 Speaker 5: I absolutely I grew up watching the shoot them ups 459 00:25:58,319 --> 00:26:01,319 in the horror movies and I wanting that Brian and Torri. 460 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:03,319 I was a senior in high school once the first 461 00:26:03,319 --> 00:26:05,799 Scream came out, So that was the time for all 462 00:26:05,839 --> 00:26:08,640 of us living in DC at Quantico. Every time The 463 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,720 Silence of the Lambs has a anniversary, they screen it. 464 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,559 Why because it's a recruitment tool. People want to be clarice, 465 00:26:14,599 --> 00:26:18,359 they want to join the FBI. Top Gun Maverick Air 466 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,599 Force goes through the rooms. Actors in the eighties and 467 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,720 nineties were paid to smoke on screen. Why because people 468 00:26:23,759 --> 00:26:26,480 thought the smoking was cool. We're watching Bruce Willis and 469 00:26:26,519 --> 00:26:30,519 Diehard chainsmoke the whole time. That has it that is intentional? 470 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:32,440 For me at stake? Do you want to think like 471 00:26:32,519 --> 00:26:35,680 past it we I've watched all these movies. I never 472 00:26:35,799 --> 00:26:39,680 had any color sort of violent inclinations, but it definitely 473 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,039 I think we have to be truthful that it certainly 474 00:26:43,079 --> 00:26:45,880 can hit someone at the worst time in the the 475 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,359 lion ideas. 476 00:26:47,559 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 6: Are we saying ban horror movies? 477 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,119 Speaker 5: No, But to say that it had no impact or 478 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,400 influence on these guys, I don't think would be an 479 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,240 honest take on it, because it clearly did. 480 00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:03,640 Speaker 4: Clearly Citurium if Brian are both thirty five now, and 481 00:27:03,839 --> 00:27:07,240 they did consent to appear on the documentary, and I 482 00:27:07,319 --> 00:27:09,680 was on pins and needles waiting to see if we 483 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,279 were going to hear from them, and I was really 484 00:27:12,799 --> 00:27:16,920 surprised and pleased that we did. What has life been 485 00:27:17,079 --> 00:27:19,079 like for these guys in prison? 486 00:27:21,279 --> 00:27:24,039 Speaker 5: For me going in because I conducted those interviews and 487 00:27:24,079 --> 00:27:26,680 I did it from home with video conference in We 488 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,480 weren't allowed to bring cameras into the actual prison anywhere 489 00:27:29,759 --> 00:27:33,079 in Idaho is a no go, so everything was incremental. 490 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,759 They were fifteen minute video conference and calls that I 491 00:27:35,799 --> 00:27:37,200 had to schedule over and over again. 492 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:39,119 Speaker 6: I was surprised by there. 493 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,559 Speaker 5: The first thing I made sure I did was save 494 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,079 the name Cassie, so they knew where I was coming from. 495 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,839 I want a total transparency. We're going to talk about everything. 496 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:50,160 If we're going to do this, we have to talk 497 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:50,920 about everything. 498 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,279 Speaker 6: And they were up for it. They definitely, in particular Brian. 499 00:27:54,319 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 5: I think he's worked on himself for a long time 500 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:57,680 to figure out who that kid on that tape was 501 00:27:58,839 --> 00:28:02,240 and trying to separate himself from that. And I think 502 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,759 they're still trying to figure out where exactly that all 503 00:28:04,799 --> 00:28:08,200 came from. I had multiple conversations with them, and we 504 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,640 didn't just talk about the case. We talked about everything else. 505 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,839 But for me, they shouldn't have the opportunity to even 506 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,720 have enlightenment on the inside. But I will say that 507 00:28:18,799 --> 00:28:23,839 it is not a good existence inside an institution like that. 508 00:28:24,039 --> 00:28:26,519 It is I don't know how they do it, to 509 00:28:26,559 --> 00:28:29,000 be honest, and it's for them. 510 00:28:29,039 --> 00:28:31,880 Speaker 6: They're thirty five, but they could live to be seventy. 511 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,079 Speaker 2: We're older even or older you do the math. 512 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 5: They could easily do seventy years on the inside. And 513 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,480 when I talked to Carrie, Brian's father, he said the 514 00:28:41,519 --> 00:28:44,519 moment he realized his son had been had spent more 515 00:28:44,559 --> 00:28:48,119 time inside of prison than out in his life. Yeah, 516 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:53,359 was the sentenced chills again of like how did life 517 00:28:53,759 --> 00:28:55,799 take this hard left turn? 518 00:28:56,359 --> 00:28:57,079 Speaker 6: And here we are. 519 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,759 Speaker 5: We took carry out to how side of the prison 520 00:29:01,359 --> 00:29:03,519 to talk about this is the house his son has 521 00:29:03,559 --> 00:29:05,599 lived in for the last twenty years. And the fact 522 00:29:05,599 --> 00:29:07,480 that he was willing to do that and show me 523 00:29:07,519 --> 00:29:10,440 what a day in life was for him. Every Sunday 524 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:15,119 or Saturday, he's going to the maximums Brian is in 525 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,440 medium security, but he's going to the Department of Corrections 526 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:19,480 to visit his sun. 527 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 2: The fifteen minute segments, that was just due to the 528 00:29:23,039 --> 00:29:27,319 rules of the prison in terms of how long you 529 00:29:27,319 --> 00:29:29,880 were allowed to talk to the prisoners. 530 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:34,039 Speaker 5: Correct you could book two sessions, two fifteen minute sessions 531 00:29:34,519 --> 00:29:37,359 back to back. Part of it, and it's there's a 532 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,839 cost that's attached to it, which we weren't worried about, 533 00:29:39,839 --> 00:29:42,960 but it's a way to allow a lot of inmates 534 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,240 obviously want to reach out, and so it's how they 535 00:29:45,359 --> 00:29:49,680 manage it. Technology was not great, broadband quality was within 536 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:54,000 the documentary, so there was an advantage to doing it 537 00:29:54,039 --> 00:29:56,079 that way as a post just bringing a camera in, 538 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,799 sitting down and getting one opportunity and they could say 539 00:29:58,920 --> 00:29:59,559 you have an hour. 540 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 6: That's all we would have gotten this. 541 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 5: I was able to build a rapport with them over 542 00:30:05,279 --> 00:30:07,440 the course of two or three months, and I think 543 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,519 as a result, we compromised quality, but we definitely got 544 00:30:10,519 --> 00:30:11,799 a lot more substance out of it. 545 00:30:12,079 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 2: Did you find yourself going back and watching each segment 546 00:30:16,359 --> 00:30:20,240 when it was complete before you got to the next meeting? 547 00:30:20,319 --> 00:30:20,839 Speaker 6: If yeah. 548 00:30:20,839 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 5: I never wanted to overwhelm them where they would shut down, 549 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:25,599 because I said to Tory, I said, I know, I'm 550 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,160 just a reminder of the past. He said, I opened 551 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,200 my eyes and it's a reminder of the past. So 552 00:30:31,279 --> 00:30:34,519 they have just gotten moved past all these things. They 553 00:30:34,559 --> 00:30:36,720 just basically, you're not going to ask me anything that 554 00:30:36,799 --> 00:30:40,519 hasn't I have been already addressed internally. But definitely, like 555 00:30:40,599 --> 00:30:43,119 I would want to disincrementally make sure that we're getting 556 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,920 everything out of them, where that's who they were before, 557 00:30:46,079 --> 00:30:49,160 what led up to them, how they came together the 558 00:30:49,279 --> 00:30:53,960 night of and in the aftermath, and certainly the years 559 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,640 since of Tory saying he woke up one day and 560 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,920 he's twenty five years old and he's, oh my gosh, 561 00:30:59,079 --> 00:31:01,480 what happened gulfs and he came out of this fog? 562 00:31:01,559 --> 00:31:03,799 And that twenty five twenty six is obviously we get 563 00:31:03,799 --> 00:31:06,640 into the brain science of particularly the male brain and 564 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,079 what's going on there, whether people think that should be 565 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:10,000 a part of this or not. 566 00:31:10,559 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 6: It's those milestones. 567 00:31:12,519 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 5: I think they just kept coming up as we were 568 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:15,839 making the documentary. 569 00:31:16,279 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 6: I think we have to acknowledge Connor's patients with the 570 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:27,640 Idaho Department of Corrections, these two prisoners and the parents, 571 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,960 like it was not this was not easy, and he 572 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:37,079 did it basically all by himself, where it was especially 573 00:31:37,119 --> 00:31:41,160 with Shannon Adamcheck, just baby steps and never giving up 574 00:31:41,359 --> 00:31:45,000 and not being able to find common ground enough to 575 00:31:45,039 --> 00:31:47,839 be able to go to the next step. And it 576 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:52,759 was very laborious and you can't imagine you can understand 577 00:31:52,799 --> 00:31:55,759 why they are guarded and they they might not want 578 00:31:55,799 --> 00:31:59,759 to talk. It's totally understandable, but Connor like just kept 579 00:31:59,799 --> 00:32:03,240 going and was able to relate to them very well. 580 00:32:03,359 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 5: We didn't want it to feel like a hit piece, 581 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:07,920 because if it was just going to be east there's 582 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,319 good and there's bad, why bring them in? And I 583 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,319 wanted to make them feel like they had Okay, here's 584 00:32:14,519 --> 00:32:16,720 I'm giving. We want to give you guys time to 585 00:32:16,839 --> 00:32:19,799 speak on your behalf because I wanted them to see 586 00:32:19,799 --> 00:32:22,319 a little that I we interview them, We bring them 587 00:32:22,319 --> 00:32:23,839 in and then we pull the rug right out from 588 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,079 under them. And but we don't need to make it 589 00:32:26,079 --> 00:32:29,039 a hippie because they did it themselves, and a tape, 590 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,680 the crime, all of those things obviously speak for themselves. 591 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,839 So we didn't need to elevate any more of the horror. 592 00:32:37,079 --> 00:32:39,440 Just as Paan Draper said to me, this story just 593 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,400 speaks for itself. There's no reason to come in and 594 00:32:42,519 --> 00:32:45,599 dramatize it anymore because it cannot get any worse than 595 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:47,799 how just the basic facts of this case are. 596 00:32:49,039 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 4: Why were Brian and Tory willing to talk? 597 00:32:54,079 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 5: Oh, this is the first time Tory, he's actually getting 598 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,160 an interview in the many years. I think they wanted 599 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:06,759 to speak about life without parole. They want to talk 600 00:33:06,799 --> 00:33:10,000 about theirselfs okay, yeah, and they wanted to talk about 601 00:33:10,039 --> 00:33:13,160 how they are. I think Brian and he does it 602 00:33:13,359 --> 00:33:15,960 in a way where he says he separates himself from 603 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:17,880 his sixteen year old self to who he is now. 604 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:19,119 Speaker 6: The sixteen year old is the. 605 00:33:19,039 --> 00:33:21,599 Speaker 5: One that put me here, and I'm now doing the 606 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:26,720 punishment for his crime. And that is a mindbender. Yeah, 607 00:33:26,759 --> 00:33:29,440 that sometimes it's hard to grapple with. You can just 608 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,759 look at it from the surface, as said in the documentary, 609 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,519 should his age matter? Know, the deed should matter? And 610 00:33:35,559 --> 00:33:38,359 that's as far as we need to look. But as 611 00:33:38,519 --> 00:33:41,880 we've seen with how states have approached these this kind 612 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,759 of sentences for a juvenile, it's a controversy and a 613 00:33:45,759 --> 00:33:47,880 lot of states are doing things differently. The Supreme Court 614 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,359 took it up so clearly it was a topic and 615 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,480 an issue debate that they felt that it was worthy 616 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,799 that it reached all the way to the top on 617 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,279 the judicial branch. So I think that's what they wanted 618 00:33:58,319 --> 00:34:01,359 to do, and it's They've had a lot of time 619 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,279 to think about what they've done and how many lives 620 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,440 they affected, and I think that's going to be the 621 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,960 hardest part for them to watch, is particularly to see 622 00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:15,039 their parents how they have stood by them all this time, 623 00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:19,599 yet their lives have been ruined because of their actions, 624 00:34:19,639 --> 00:34:22,079 and so that weight is, I think is on them 625 00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:23,800 and I think that was part of the reason why 626 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:25,119 they wanted to participate. 627 00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 2: Will they be permitted to watch the documentary? 628 00:34:32,559 --> 00:34:35,320 Speaker 5: Yes, we sent DVD to each of them, so it 629 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,800 has to go through If they can't stream it, it 630 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:38,920 has to go to the. 631 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 6: Director of the prison. 632 00:34:40,079 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 5: They will go through, It will then go through a 633 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,360 review process, and then once they thinking that it's appropriate 634 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,760 for them to watch, then they'll be able to watch it. 635 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,079 Speaker 2: Is your expectation that it will clear this process and 636 00:34:51,119 --> 00:34:53,079 that they will ultimately be able to watch it. 637 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:54,639 Speaker 6: Yeah. 638 00:34:54,679 --> 00:34:56,639 Speaker 5: I know Brian has watched it. I have not heard 639 00:34:56,639 --> 00:34:58,599 from him, but I don't know about to worry. So 640 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:03,719 it's reached at least one of them. You've got families 641 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,159 on each side here. You've got Cassie, Joe's family who 642 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:11,920 very understandably would not want Brian and Tory his sentences 643 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,320 shortened in any way. And I think we all here 644 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,360 can understand that point of view, But you also have 645 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:21,039 Brian and Torre's families, I who again are seeing it 646 00:35:21,079 --> 00:35:23,000 from the point of view of our kids who have 647 00:35:23,039 --> 00:35:25,960 been in prison more many more years than they have 648 00:35:26,039 --> 00:35:28,039 been out of it, and we would like to see 649 00:35:28,079 --> 00:35:32,119 they're sentence shortened. Do you guys feel knowing with them 650 00:35:32,159 --> 00:35:34,440 and talking with them, do you feel that they have 651 00:35:34,559 --> 00:35:39,199 been truly rehabilitated or are they too dangerous to be 652 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,239 let out into society. I want to say one thing, 653 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:43,920 and then I think Pat can jump in on this. 654 00:35:44,199 --> 00:35:47,000 I don't think guy, the family, Adam Jux, the Drapers 655 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,519 are asking for this sentence to be shortened. I think 656 00:35:50,559 --> 00:35:53,519 they're asking for just the opportunity to sit in front 657 00:35:53,519 --> 00:35:56,199 of a parole board. I gotcha, Okay, you know, and 658 00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:58,960 I think that is a clear distinction. Do they believe 659 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,280 that they should be really least at some point in 660 00:36:02,639 --> 00:36:04,639 in the near future. What that might be ten years, 661 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:09,159 twenty years, I'm not sure, but just have some hope 662 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,480 that at least they could have a chance to speak 663 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,440 on them present, who they are today versus who they 664 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,119 were when they committed the crime at sixteen. 665 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:25,639 Speaker 6: Yeah, the question is very difficult. These are sixteen year 666 00:36:25,679 --> 00:36:29,880 olds that did this horrible thing. But I go back 667 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:34,239 to the words of the trial judge who sentenced them 668 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:40,599 to life without parole, and he said, you guys made 669 00:36:40,599 --> 00:36:43,840 a list of people you want to kill, and you 670 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,679 said you wanted to kill Cassie, and you did kill Cassie. 671 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,840 How am I to know that if I let you, 672 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,360 if someday you're out, that you won't do that. I 673 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:54,679 can't know that you wrote down that you wanted to 674 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,519 kill these people. You said on camera you wanted to 675 00:36:57,559 --> 00:37:00,920 kill a person and did it. So why would I 676 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,239 ever take and why would the State of Idaho ever 677 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:07,000 take that risk to let you out? Now, these guys 678 00:37:07,039 --> 00:37:10,159 are clearly different people than when this happened. But if 679 00:37:10,159 --> 00:37:13,599 you're if you're the judge, and if you're the state 680 00:37:13,639 --> 00:37:18,880 of Idaho, and these kids have murdered someone after clearly 681 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,599 stating their intentions to murder someone and then have a 682 00:37:22,639 --> 00:37:25,119 list of other people they want to murder, you can 683 00:37:25,159 --> 00:37:29,559 see why that life without parole sentence starts to make 684 00:37:29,639 --> 00:37:32,400 more sense. I think, like Connor said, the families and 685 00:37:32,519 --> 00:37:35,880 even some of the law enforcement we talked to, especially 686 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,840 with Brian, because he did give it up. The lead 687 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:43,400 investigator John Gansky told us he did cooperate, and cooperations 688 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,880 should get you something, and in his opinion, that something 689 00:37:47,519 --> 00:37:52,920 was a chance at a parole board someday. Now not 690 00:37:54,119 --> 00:37:57,599 in the foreseeable future, but someday he should be able 691 00:37:57,599 --> 00:38:00,559 to at least go to a parole board. Tory, nobody 692 00:38:00,599 --> 00:38:03,440 really seemed to think he should get a second chance, 693 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:08,000 but Brian, because of what his cooperation, they thought that 694 00:38:08,039 --> 00:38:09,199 he should get another chance. 695 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,800 Speaker 4: And is that why Brian is in medium security and 696 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:14,679 Tories in Max. 697 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 5: It's I think it really has to do with job opportunity. 698 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:21,119 Speaker 6: It's got a good answer. 699 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:23,360 Speaker 5: Or Tory said he got a job that he could 700 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,119 do and it would be MAX, but he'd be in 701 00:38:25,119 --> 00:38:28,119 a particular wing within maxim security, so he took it. 702 00:38:28,159 --> 00:38:31,039 Speaker 6: So I don't think that it's about who's been better. 703 00:38:31,079 --> 00:38:34,039 Speaker 5: But I will say that Brian has spent a lot 704 00:38:34,119 --> 00:38:38,119 of time as a mentor restorative promise and how he 705 00:38:38,159 --> 00:38:39,800 would look at it and how he explained to me. 706 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:41,800 This is not something we go into the documentary, but 707 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,400 he says, Hey, get these kids to come in. Maybe 708 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,440 they corjacked, he committed somewhat of a violent crime, but 709 00:38:47,519 --> 00:38:49,719 they are going to get out in five years, and 710 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,000 he wants to help them to make sure that they 711 00:38:52,079 --> 00:38:54,719 don't come back and spend the rest of their life 712 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:56,280 like he is. He said, I don't want to be 713 00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,679 the example, by I am the example. So if I 714 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,400 can prevent this kid from go back out there and 715 00:39:02,599 --> 00:39:05,679 ended up killing someone, I feel like I am trying 716 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:09,119 to save lives in the future, and that's a bit petty, 717 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:10,880 and that's the best that he can do. And I 718 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,599 think that if he feels that, if he just continues that, 719 00:39:13,679 --> 00:39:16,039 then maybe some days someone goes, Okay, you know what 720 00:39:16,119 --> 00:39:19,039 you just did forty years of trying to send these 721 00:39:19,079 --> 00:39:22,679 kids back out to be upstanding citizens, get jobs, get married, 722 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,199 have kids. Maybe then at that point would he get 723 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:25,960 a consideration. 724 00:39:27,199 --> 00:39:32,559 Speaker 2: Do you two, as documentary filmmakers, feel that your own 725 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:39,239 personal attitudes towards Tory and Brian shifted at all over 726 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,760 the course of researching and putting together the series. 727 00:39:46,159 --> 00:39:51,880 Speaker 5: I would say yes, because of my direct relationships with 728 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,760 the parents and with Brian and Tory. Pat has a 729 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:59,239 different angle because obviously he met Anna, Cassie's mother, and 730 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,519 that clearly has had a lasting impression on him. 731 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:04,280 Speaker 6: It's hard I have kids. 732 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,280 Speaker 5: They were running around upstairs as I was conducting interviews, 733 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:09,079 and that was always in the back of my mind. 734 00:40:09,679 --> 00:40:12,599 And recently I just realized that my daughter, in just 735 00:40:12,639 --> 00:40:14,599 a few years, will have lived a longer life than 736 00:40:14,679 --> 00:40:17,719 Cassie did. And my daughter is a child, so that 737 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,480 if someone took her from me, how do you have 738 00:40:21,119 --> 00:40:23,760 you guys unfortunately experienced it to be able to recover, 739 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:27,800 particularly losing a child in that way. However, I hear 740 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:33,320 I am speaking to too seemingly intelligent, able bodied human 741 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:38,719 beings and just languishing, And I wonder if there's something 742 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,039 in the middle. Ye Wan, Brian and Torri. We don't 743 00:40:42,079 --> 00:40:44,119 want to run into him at the local walmart. I 744 00:40:44,119 --> 00:40:48,119 don't think anybody is for that. But on this other 745 00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:52,079 side of them, just walking these long corridors of center 746 00:40:52,119 --> 00:40:55,039 blocks and bars, is there something else that they could 747 00:40:55,079 --> 00:40:59,800 be put towards, some kind of redemptive program of some 748 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,800 that allows them to give something back to society because 749 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,599 they had taken so much from so many people. I 750 00:41:06,639 --> 00:41:10,360 think there's I think there's room for that. So your answer, yes, 751 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,440 I have evolved a little bit, but it's hard to 752 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:14,719 be to commit. 753 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,280 Speaker 6: I haven't experienced a violent crime directly. 754 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:19,079 Speaker 5: Obviously, I've worked with a lot of people over the 755 00:41:19,199 --> 00:41:21,559 years and keep in touch with still to this day, 756 00:41:22,039 --> 00:41:24,599 so I have to acknowledge that it's. 757 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:27,360 Speaker 6: How can you ask someone who has lost a family. 758 00:41:27,119 --> 00:41:30,639 Speaker 5: Member to violence to to say, Okay, maybe it is 759 00:41:30,679 --> 00:41:33,039 time for them to get an opportunity to do something 760 00:41:33,119 --> 00:41:35,119 that other than sit inside a jail. 761 00:41:35,199 --> 00:41:38,920 Speaker 2: Still, Pat, what do you think for my money? 762 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,159 Speaker 6: I guess it's I guess you could call in an 763 00:41:42,159 --> 00:41:46,199 evolution or a change in thinking, but not in a 764 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:49,280 not a favorable way to either of them. I guess 765 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,199 what I would say is that when I first did 766 00:41:52,199 --> 00:41:58,840 this story, I really thought that Tory was a pure 767 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:04,840 psychopath and that he was very dangerous, and if it 768 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,440 wasn't this, it would have been something else, and that 769 00:42:08,599 --> 00:42:11,360 Brian was not along for the ride. I never thought that. 770 00:42:11,519 --> 00:42:15,039 But if there was a hierarchy, Tory was in charge. 771 00:42:15,519 --> 00:42:19,519 And my thinking has shifted only in the negative to Brian, 772 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:24,280 which is I think that he is also just as 773 00:42:25,119 --> 00:42:28,400 to blame for this. That's how I've changed is I 774 00:42:28,519 --> 00:42:31,119 used to think one of them was a leader and 775 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,000 one is a follower. Now I think it's more equal 776 00:42:34,039 --> 00:42:37,199 and they're equally bad. I don't know if there's any redemption. 777 00:42:38,039 --> 00:42:41,679 I don't their parents can go see them in prison, 778 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:44,880 and Cassie's family has to go to the graveyard. So 779 00:42:45,519 --> 00:42:49,039 that always stays with me. Yeah, but again I didn't 780 00:42:49,039 --> 00:42:52,280 talk to them the way Connor did, and as adults, 781 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:56,480 I met Tory when he was maybe eighteen, after that, 782 00:42:56,679 --> 00:43:00,320 maybe nineteen. So yeah, to answer your question, it has change, 783 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:01,039 is styt worse? 784 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,519 Speaker 4: What do you ultimately what do you ultimately want the 785 00:43:06,599 --> 00:43:09,880 people who watched this to take away from it? What 786 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,320 would you I don't know, like two or three key 787 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:14,440 to This is such a high school teacher question to ask, 788 00:43:14,519 --> 00:43:16,519 but that's what I am. What are your two to 789 00:43:16,599 --> 00:43:19,719 three key takeaways that you want people to walk away 790 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,000 from having watched this documentary to come away with? 791 00:43:23,079 --> 00:43:25,440 Speaker 5: I mean, I think it's we talked about earlier with 792 00:43:25,639 --> 00:43:28,039 the purpose. What is the purpose of this? And my 793 00:43:28,159 --> 00:43:30,920 father in law I think grabbed it the most. He 794 00:43:31,039 --> 00:43:34,039 watched it and he said, every parent and should watch 795 00:43:34,119 --> 00:43:37,599 this documentary as a cautionary tale. We're still having this 796 00:43:37,679 --> 00:43:43,360 conversation about teen crisis, particularly the boys and what's happening, 797 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:45,320 and they're the ones committing crimes. 798 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:46,800 Speaker 6: The influence of the Internet. 799 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,440 Speaker 5: Brian and Tory were the early stages of YouTube, and 800 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,760 they could easily go into some really dark places, and 801 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:54,679 they did, and they had access to go in really 802 00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,440 dark places. And it's hard to be a parent. But 803 00:43:57,639 --> 00:43:59,719 it's obviously we're battling this now. We all day to 804 00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:01,400 put our phones down. We need to talk to each 805 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,079 other more at the kitchen table. I know that sounds hokey, 806 00:44:04,599 --> 00:44:07,480 but for me, it's just like you eat roles. You 807 00:44:07,679 --> 00:44:09,559 really want to stay in touch with your kids. And 808 00:44:09,639 --> 00:44:12,280 I think with the drapers and the atom checks, both 809 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:14,280 are still what did I miss? What didn't I do? 810 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,440 Did I do too much of this? Was I on 811 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:19,000 the roadad too much? Was I so focused on making money? 812 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,519 Did I push them to take to play baseball when 813 00:44:21,559 --> 00:44:22,920 we wanted to play the flute. 814 00:44:23,079 --> 00:44:24,920 Speaker 6: There's all these things that you grapple. 815 00:44:24,639 --> 00:44:27,239 Speaker 5: With on how a kid could go to such a 816 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,159 dark place, not one two and find each other in 817 00:44:30,199 --> 00:44:33,239 a town of fifty thousand people and the other corner 818 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:35,639 of Idaho, which is an whole other thing, like how 819 00:44:35,679 --> 00:44:38,800 did those two find each other? It has such a 820 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:43,000 common darkness, and I think that unfortunately for the Drapers 821 00:44:43,039 --> 00:44:45,079 and the Atom Checks. They were so honest about it, 822 00:44:45,119 --> 00:44:47,079 and I think we should at least peak something away 823 00:44:47,119 --> 00:44:50,679 from that that we need to take just we need 824 00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,440 to pay attention to our kids more, and I think 825 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:55,719 that's the hardest thing. We're so busy where we help 826 00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,679 our careers and everything else, and you never know what 827 00:44:59,199 --> 00:45:03,079 your kids think, what they're watching, who they're befriending on 828 00:45:03,119 --> 00:45:05,679 the street. And I think for that is that's the 829 00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:07,920 real takeaway from my sense. I thought that's what the 830 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,960 value of making this documentary was really, that was the core. 831 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:12,800 Speaker 4: Of pat How about you. 832 00:45:13,599 --> 00:45:16,400 Speaker 6: I'm not sure if the takeaway that I have is 833 00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:21,840 as enlightened or hopeful as that. I think it's more fear. 834 00:45:23,559 --> 00:45:26,639 I think it's I think it's a terror, and it's 835 00:45:26,679 --> 00:45:29,719 a terror on many levels. It's a terror to think 836 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,960 what Cassie was going through in her last moments, and 837 00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,320 it's a terror to think that there could be kids 838 00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,079 like this walking around a high school right now. And 839 00:45:39,119 --> 00:45:41,880 it's a terror to think that these parents that Adam 840 00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:46,000 Checks and the Drapers were really good parents. They were present, 841 00:45:46,079 --> 00:45:49,480 they had jobs, there was no drugs or alcohol problems 842 00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,119 these parents. Did you know everything right. I don't know 843 00:45:52,159 --> 00:45:55,119 about everything, but they didn't. They seem to be doing 844 00:45:55,159 --> 00:45:59,000 everything right, and this still happened. And that's terror that 845 00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,320 you can do every single right, and you don't know. 846 00:46:02,519 --> 00:46:07,199 When your kid goes upstairs and he turns on the internet, 847 00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,800 he could be into the darkest place in the world 848 00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:13,079 in seconds. And you don't know that when Hong Kong, 849 00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:15,280 your son's friend comes to pick him up to go 850 00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:19,559 out for the night, where they're really going. That's the terror. 851 00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,280 I think it's terror all around. And also for the 852 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:25,039 town to think that this could happen in this little 853 00:46:25,079 --> 00:46:30,119 Mormon town in Idaho. So to me, it's more of 854 00:46:30,119 --> 00:46:33,159 a gut level like this. This was a This was 855 00:46:33,199 --> 00:46:36,079 a horror all around world. 856 00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:39,440 Speaker 4: Which makes it very fitting a true teen horror story. 857 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:43,840 The series it ends the Scream Murder, a true teen 858 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,679 horror story now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus. 859 00:46:48,159 --> 00:46:51,719 Connor pat Any final words. 860 00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,559 Speaker 6: Teern In It's a hard watch, but it's loaded. 861 00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:57,760 Speaker 5: We want people to watch it, but be prepared that 862 00:46:57,800 --> 00:46:59,880 they know what they're getting into before they hit playing. 863 00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,519 Speaker 6: That's what I would say too, is that this podcast 864 00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:08,360 is for true crime people and if you are a 865 00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:11,559 true crime person. Not to give my own show a 866 00:47:11,559 --> 00:47:14,280 big plug, this is almost like a must watch. You 867 00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:17,639 will not have seen anything like this. I don't mean 868 00:47:17,639 --> 00:47:20,760 to be so open about it, but true crime people 869 00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:23,119 that are listening watch this. You're not going to see 870 00:47:23,119 --> 00:47:25,000 anything like this tape. Period. 871 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:30,199 Speaker 4: Yeah. It is a real it is a real moment 872 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:35,199 of absolute, true, chilling horror. It's an amazing series, you guys, 873 00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:37,400 and we cannot thank you enough for joining us. This 874 00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:38,320 has been wonderful. 875 00:47:39,159 --> 00:47:41,239 Speaker 6: Thank you for having us. Yes, thank you. 876 00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:43,480 Speaker 4: That is going to do it to this episode of 877 00:47:43,519 --> 00:47:47,159 mind Ever Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll 878 00:47:47,159 --> 00:47:47,920 see you next time. 879 00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:01,400 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 880 00:48:01,519 --> 00:48:02,920 Another Dog Productions. 881 00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:06,840 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 882 00:48:07,159 --> 00:48:09,599 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 883 00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:12,280 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McCloud. 884 00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:16,880 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 885 00:48:17,519 --> 00:48:20,679 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 886 00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:23,480 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 887 00:48:23,559 --> 00:48:25,360 Murders on Facebook. 888 00:48:25,119 --> 00:48:28,159 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 889 00:48:28,199 --> 00:48:29,840 Bill Thomas five six. 890 00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:33,400 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder,