Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast.
Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,
and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my
experience as the brother of a murder victim to help
other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book
on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co
administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher,
a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the
social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway
Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas.
Speaker 4: Welcome to Mind of a Murder.
Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas.
Speaker 4: Well, we're joined today by Connor McCarthy and Patrick Rogers
here to talk to us about the brand news free
part documentary series The Scream Murder, a true teen horror
story now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus.
Thanks for taking the time today, Thanks for thanks for
having us as a dedicated fan of the Scream series
of horror movies. There's no way I could resist that title.
Were you guys hoping to pull in sands of the
movie specifically, or was that just the best title for
this case.
Speaker 5: It's a part of the story, and it's a big
part of the story.
Speaker 6: How much was it influence so influential.
Speaker 5: To the crime itself is up for debate, and I
think we're still talking about that twenty years later. Teenageerators
commit a crime horror philm obsess.
Speaker 6: We can't ignore that.
Speaker 5: So clearly that was probably the most wrapped way in
we want people to watch. Obviously tune in, but this
is obviously is a much more complicated case than a
copycat kill, which is far from the truth when it
came to this with this crime.
Speaker 6: And if you watch on the tape that the boys made,
they referenced the movie Scream, of course, and there if
you see the clip where Brian's playing drums, the movie
Scream is on the screen. He's playing drums. So, like
Connor says, is there a lot more to this? Yes,
there is is Scream a part of it. Oh, yes
it is. There is a big part of it here.
Speaker 2: So walk us through just the basics of the case.
For folks that might not be familiar with it or
haven't seen a new documentary yet.
Speaker 6: Okay, So in two thousand and six, September twenty seconds,
two homeowners from Pocatello, Idaho return home from a three
day vacation and they find on the floor stabbed to
death Cassie Joe Stoddard, who was house sitting for them
when they went on this vacation. And that's how everything starts.
So the day call nine one one and an investigation begins.
Cassie is a sixteen year old high school student. She
was just their house sitting. There was nothing else happening
at the house. Upon investigation, they realized. The investigators discovered
that Cassie's boyfriend, Matt, had come over to keep her company,
essentially while she was house sitting. So they went to
question Matt about this, and he says while he was
there and at the house, some strange things had happened.
The lights had gone off and on, they heard some
glass breaking. The lights stayed off for a little while,
then they came back on. They heard something in the basement.
They were afraid to go down there, so Matt was
not allowed to sleep over, so his mom comes and
gets him. He leaves. Cassie's fine when he leaves, but
he also tells police that there were two other visitors
that night, two of their classmates, Brian Draper and Tory Adamchek,
also Bull sixteen. They had come over because they had
heard Cassie was going to be house sitting. Maybe there'd
be a little party. There wasn't, so Matt tells the
investigators about these two other kids. They go to question them.
They admit that they were there, Brian and Torrey Bull.
They were there, and they said that they had left
and they'd gone to the movies. Now this is where
another place where the movies play come into play. They
were both horror movie fans. They were out of horror
movie and when the police say what was the movie about,
neither of them can remember what it was about. So
police immediately start to unravel their story. Their alibi falls apart.
They tell another lie, also disproven. Eventually, Brian Draper comes
in and confesses that he and Tory actually left the house,
came back later and murdered Cassie. He also directs police
to a spot outside Pocatello where they've buried the evidence
knives clothes, masks, and a tape, and once they put
this tape in the case takes a gigantic turn when
they see what's on it.
Speaker 4: That tape was chilling, Yes, it was. It was chilling.
Speaker 6: You guys are steeped in true crime. You've done countless
hours and so of Connor and I and we've never
ever seen anything like that.
Speaker 4: It's interesting. It did remind me a lot of the
basement tapes from the two Columbine killers, Dylan Claybald and
Eric Harris, which obviously there are some similarities that the
two killers in this case wanted to draw between themselves
and Eric and Dylan. So I'm wondering if maybe that's
why they went to the links of making that tape.
But that tape was I was actually a little we
were watching it. I was like, are they going to
share the tape? I want to see it? And then yeah,
but boy, I actually wish I hadn't.
Speaker 6: Very very hard to watch. It's hard to believe your eyes. Actually,
it's hard to believe what you're seeing.
Speaker 4: So how did you guys even hear about this case?
Because I went through the mental rolodex and I realized
I don't remember this case, and it seems like one
I would have heard about. So where did it come
on your radar?
Speaker 6: Like I said earlier, it happened in September twenty second
in two thousand and six, and I found out about
it almost like right away. I was working in true crime,
and I think I heard about it by Halloween because
they got around there. They got arrested pretty fast. I
did a lot of research back then, and in two
thousand and nine I did an hour long documentary for
MSNBC on this same case. So I've known about it
since basically the day it happened. It just came on
my radar. It may sound odd to listeners, but I'm
just and so is Connor. We're constantly looking for something
and you can get taken far Afield and Pocatello, Idaho.
It's nowhere near where I was living, but it came
on the radar and I immediately jumped on it for
that MSNBC show. Yeah, and for me, it was over
a year ago October twenty twenty four when Pat and
I started talking about the case, it had almost been
twenty years, reaching the twenty year anniversary to like I
were an anniversary. It's September, and I the approach that
I went in terms of reaching out was obviously to
Cassie's family, but also so Brian and Tory's parents. I
felt that was a perspective that we don't hear from
very office.
Speaker 5: And there are three families involved. Prefamilies were ruined in
very different ways. The levels of catastrophe and what happens,
particularly for siblings of Brian and Tory. The parents, people
can lay blame on however they want. They didn't do enough,
they did too much, but the siblings are people that
are just they go down unfortunately, and some of them
were in the same school that Brian and Tory were
attending that echo, and I think it just it's illustrated
through our high school students. We bring on, the teachers,
that we bring on the magnitude of this case, particularly
happening in the most formative point in these peoples lives
that they're going to remember forever, and as you see
particularly something of that, the high school students were still
struggling to this day. I don't think they could even
articulate the trauma that it really settled in, and for
a lot of them it's the first time they've publicly
spoken about that time in their life. High school was
over for a lot of them once this thing, once
this murder occurred.
Speaker 2: At the time you reached out to the families, had
you too made the decision that you were definitely going
to do a documentary or did you want to wait
and see what kind of reaction you've got or if
there was any interest or level of support.
Speaker 5: I think once Shannon said she'd be open to participating,
and the thing that they wanted to talk about, we
can talk about life without parole. Carry Draper came on board,
and well, when one says yes, then the next one
comes on and the next and we just started like
reaching out slowly to everybody, they knowing this was a
really difficult topic for a lot of people and not
a phone call that they're going to want to get
and be brought back to that time.
Speaker 6: But then as we were moving forward and bad I
we didn't know where it was going to go.
Speaker 5: We knew it was something worth doing because we always
ask ourselves, what is the purpose of this it is, Oh,
it's this crazy crime, But we wanted something deeper than
just retelling the story of a really terrible thing that
committed in small town I'm America. We wanted something to
have layers to it, and that's usually how we approach
most of our projects. And the more people that we
saw that were willing to come on, and really, I think,
I think we have something that we can make and
turn it into a sprawling, three part twenty year saga
of the events of September two thousand and six.
Speaker 4: The fact that you were able to get the parents
on was something that I was very interested in and
very impressed by. And I feel terrible for those parents,
And I was really struck by the fact that Pam
Draper said in the very first episode that she still
loves her son in spite of what he did. Did
you find that sentiment to be true not only for
both sets of parents, but maybe for friends of the boys.
How did was there like a consensus of emotion across
all the people who knew him or them?
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, I'm a parent of three, and so I
can understand them. Think it's like just being able to
turn your back on your child. But that is the
greatest tennis of a parent, when your child commits the unforgiven.
That was one thing that just in talking to him
who tried to stay is neutral and be fair to
them because they are stepping back out from the shadows,
and they certainly were Pariah's back then and could be today.
And it's a very controversial position I think they took.
But their openness was extraordinary to say the least. And
I know that this controversy that comes with that speaking
to the Drapers in the Atom checks, but they certainly
had enough conviction that they felt like it was worth
coming back out, knowing that the hate mail may come,
the emails, the text messages, and they just might find
themselves right back where they were in two thousand and six.
But the fact that they understand, I think the magnitude
of what their sons did. At the same time, they
still wanted to somehow have a relationship with them and
be committed to them. But they definitely really conflicted, and
I think Pam and more so Carrie, how they're still
struggling with where they need to be in all of this.
And I don't think they're ever going to fully know
where they are in terms of being a parent and
also being a parent and understanding losing a child to violence,
how devastating that would be. Carrie said, if I lost
one of my kids to that, I don't know what
my position would be. It probably wouldn't be his position.
It is right now with trying to look at let's
have maybe a second chance.
Speaker 6: He's it's authority issue.
Speaker 5: And for the students, we found still a lot of
shock and in some cases anger at what Brian and
Tory did and what they took away. Not only Cassie, Yeah,
was the thing they still are sore simple for, but
in terms of the happiness and the homecoming and prom
and football games and all those things that you're supposed
to experience, for a lot of them, that all just
went away and they just didn't experience that. It was
just like some people left high school, they transferred and
they couldn't stay there, and it's the ripple effect was wide.
Speaker 2: Yeah, We've talked about the ripple effect in the Colonial
Parkway murders before, and actually, as you're laying out just
the basics, one of the things I thought about was Pocatella, Idaho,
where I've never been, is a relatively small place, and
I actually was thinking about that ripple effect and wondering
how many people just ended up leaving just to escape
this horrific memory, which obviously continues to ripple to this day.
Speaker 6: The Adam Chucks and the Drapers left. They don't live
there anymore, none of them. And they had other kids,
I think Connor, they've all left. Yes, yeah, both sides.
Both families left within a year to two years after
everything happened, as well as some students. Some some families
that they moved to Boise, five hours away for schools.
They got out, So a lot of people just had
to just walk away from the lens that they used
to know. You know what was interesting is when we
went there, you talk about the ripple effect and it
was twenty years ago, and you take out the camera,
you take out the tripod, there's a bunch of guys
getting out of a van. Of course everyone's going to say, hey,
what are you guys doing? And we would tell them
and every single person that we talked to, so all
I know about that. My daughter went to school with them,
my cousin played in the band with one. Every single
person had they cut some sort of connection either direct
or indirect to the people directly involved, the Adam, Jack
Strapers and the Stoddards, everyone every the sixteen year old waitress,
the homeowner where we asked to shoot at her house.
Everybody had some kind of connection in this town. So
that's your ripple effect, is that it was like yesterday
for everyone we talked to, you know.
Speaker 4: And Cassie certainly seemed to be beloved by most anyone
and everyone in that town. So it isn't just it
isn't just the murder, it's the actual victim themselves. Can
you tell us a little bit about Cassie, Joe, I
don't want her to get lost in her own murder story.
Tell us a little bit about Cassie.
Speaker 5: I think Cassie is it was kind of person that
everybody wanted to be friends with. And I know that
sounds like a cliche, but it's like, look at all
of the clicks in high school, the jocks, the punks,
the staters, the freaks, the nerds, brom queens. Cassie was
in an artist she's so shooing out with the art kids,
but also with the stater and her boyfriend to play football,
So it seemed like she had a connection with a
lot of different groups, but was reserver an introvert in
a lot of ways, so she didn't beautiful, was just
a stand out, Like she was such a unique persona
in person in that school, and that was made it
even more shocking and baffling, like why this person was
part of the mean group of the bullies or an
outsider in any way. It seemed like she was cool
with everybody, So that what made the crime even more
senseless to target someone like her.
Speaker 6: I spoke to her mom. Her mom died in twenty
twenty two, but I interviewed her earlier to get a
sense of Cassie and straight a student, nobs all a's
and very focused and a little bit maybe on the
serious side, and she had goals. And her mom told me,
this is heartbreaking. She wanted to be a lawyer and
a prosecutor, and she said, Mom, I want to put
the bad guys away. Wow, And that's something that's stuck
with me.
Speaker 4: I like the fact that you made sure that Cassie
did not get lost in the hullabaloo of the trial
and all of the attendant issues that came with it,
but that we're going to, of course get to you
in a couple of minutes. That's the life without parole
question and so forth. But I liked the fact that,
unlike a lot of other documentaries, you didn't let Cassie
get lost in the middle of it. The love for
her in the town really it stayed through all three
of the episodes. So I really applaud and appreciate you
guys for making sure that Cassie was never lost in
the fray, and I think you did a beautiful job
with that.
Speaker 6: Thank you.
Speaker 5: It's important when we try to get as many voices
and sign as many moments back then the kids with
painting the rock and the funeral service is heartbreaking, but
I think anybody who's watching it, it can all go back
to their high school years and couldn't imagine going through
that when you go into that classroom and that desk
chair is empty, and it's such a profound loss.
Speaker 2: One of the things I was struck by was looking
through your cast list. How many different students you were
able to get to participate in this thing. Did you
run into a lot of nos? Or was everybody pretty
much willing to step forward now that some time had
gone by.
Speaker 5: There were definitely some nose, some that just didn't want
to be a part of it, Some didn't feel like
they could go back to that time, some who had
been featured in the local news. We have to get
clearance because they were the miners at the time, and
they said, coming on cameraon talking about this is not
something I want to do, but I'll give you my
blessing to use that interview that I did thand and six.
So yeah, I think we've got more participation than expected
because of how sensitive the situation was, and we wanted
to make sure it felt well rounded and not only
be before whould speak for Cassie, but those who knew
Brian and Toy and before and the after. Because I
think everybody was sortally blindsided by this.
Speaker 6: You did get a lot of yeses, And I think,
and this is just speculation, I think the fact that
it was twenty years had gone by and they were
now adults and they could speak more rationally than of
the moment where you're just shell shocked and emotional. I
think that was part of why so many people agreed
to do it, because they had this time to move
on and reflect and have now they have kids. I
think that made it a little bit easier.
Speaker 4: So let's talk about Brian and Tory for a minute
and the things that they ended up being ultimately very
much influenced by and those are two of the things
that I would consider probably the largest cultural touchstones from
the late nineties early two thousands. They were influenced by
the horror series Scream, which said the seventh movie is
about to come out this weekend, and then that horrific
mass shooting at Columbine High School, which I remember very
well because it was my senior year in high school.
Did Try and Brian ever explain in any of the
interviews that they did, either with police or with y'all,
why were they so fixated on those two things in particular,
Scream and Columbine.
Speaker 5: I asked both of them about Scream, and neither of
them really wanted to put a lot of emphasis on that. Obviously,
as Pat pointed out, it's going to be just like Scream.
They stand the tape, Their locker room is lined with
horror film posters.
Speaker 6: Tory has a shrine of the Michael Myers mass.
Speaker 5: Brian is watching the original Scream opening scene, which in
a lot of ways they basically mimic. They would mimic
ten hours after later that day, the Columbine. I think
for Brian, the Columbine was something that this, as he
called it, a sort of pollution that was taking over
his teenage brain. And then these other stink, these other stimulants,
whether they're horror films or their homemade movies, would be
as soon to be school shooters. He became addicted to it,
and it was just absorbing it, absorbing it, and all
this darkness was coming in. And then Tory on the
other side, he wanted to be a film director. In
one point he said, I think I wanted to do
something what you're doing now, So you see that kind
of twisted irony. But he was living in a sort
of a darkness in another realm. When we talked about
he gets into the more existential crisis of a teenager.
But they the tape, Why did they make the tape?
It related to their horror fandom? Is it related to
the Columbine home movies? The basement tapes? Was Brian following
that because these guys chronicled what they were going to do,
and that's essentially what Brian and Tory do. But that
also element of wanting to write a screenplay and wanting
to direct a slasher movie, all these things they have
talked about to police. Definitely cannot be ignored. So it's
almost the tape sometimes that's what they do that we've
been struggling with what is the real purpose of the tape?
And I think Brian tore you today when I questioned
them about that, they didn't have a clear reason. There
was a fantasy, there was a heightened exaggeration of their
personas they were playing parts. So what part was real,
what wasn't? What was play acting or what was clear
methodical planning to commit first degree murder?
Speaker 2: Yeah, one of my reactions was, and I just I
couldn't get over what kind of idiot makes a tape
like this which is going to completely incriminate the two
of them. That part was a real struggle for me.
Speaker 6: They it's hard to explain a lot of it, and
that is one of the most hard things to explain
if you watch the tape. They also had like fantasies
about becoming famous serial killers and who's going to play
them in the movie and can I control my own likeness?
It was like it was lunacy and was it They're
just teenagers. They don't know what they're doing, maybe, but
they sure knew what they were doing when they went
to that house where Cassie was house sitting that night. Yeah,
you're right, what kind of person slash idiot would make
some here's the evidence police. You can tell they weren't
really thinking that. Clearly they had their kill list. Oh,
here's the other people. We're gonna kill our other classmates.
It's obviously something is broken in their brains that they
thought we're gonna be able to get away with this
b We're gonna be able to tape it all and see,
we're gonna be famous serial killers. It is part of
what makes this different from everything else, is this tape
and where it came from inside them.
Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind Over Murder. We'll be right back
after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at
Mindover Murder.
Speaker 4: When I was watching the first episode, there's a line
in the first Scream movie that I kept hearing over
and over again, and I finally to go look it
up to see what the actual quote wise. And it
is when Billy and Sue are talking to Sydney, who
for anybody who's not familiar with the series, Sydney's the
Final Girl, and Sidney basically says, you guys have seen
one two manute horror movies, and Billy says, sid, don't
you blame the movies. Movies don't create psychos, Movies make
psychos more creative. Do you think in any way Brian
and Tory were rinping off that line when they went
about designing their crime this way making the basement tape.
Do you feel like that kind of holds true for
these guys, that the movies actually made them more creative.
Speaker 6: When there's a section on the tape where they're talking
about how bad they are and Brian says, we're sick psychopaths,
they knew the first part of the first part of
that the movies don't make psychopaths. They knew they or
at least they were portraying themselves as psychopaths. And did
they get inspiration your question is to make them more creative?
I don't know, but it seems like they did get
some inspiration from it, so they acknowledged both parts of
that quote. That's very interesting you picked that out because
in one sense they call themselves psychopaths. We're bad, says Tory,
we're sick psychopaths. So they had that part covered, and
then the movies. Clearly that was some influence now more creative.
Here's one thing to consider. Corey made home videos, home
movies of him of a masked killer stabbing. It was
another little kid with a fake night. So like the creativity,
maybe that was also inside them too. But it is
an interesting thing to think about. How Connor has seen
every horror movie there is to my knowledge, he has
not yet stabbed anyone. So there's only so much we
can say, look at these brutal horror movies that have
influenced these kids. But they were aware of all of it.
And Brian Tory actually shared locker. That's their shared locker,
all those stickers, and one of the investigators that went
to Brian's house said there were movie posters, horror movie posters,
DVD's all over his room. It had some effects, that's
for sure.
Speaker 5: I absolutely I grew up watching the shoot them ups
in the horror movies and I wanting that Brian and Torri.
I was a senior in high school once the first
Scream came out, So that was the time for all
of us living in DC at Quantico. Every time The
Silence of the Lambs has a anniversary, they screen it.
Why because it's a recruitment tool. People want to be clarice,
they want to join the FBI. Top Gun Maverick Air
Force goes through the rooms. Actors in the eighties and
nineties were paid to smoke on screen. Why because people
thought the smoking was cool. We're watching Bruce Willis and
Diehard chainsmoke the whole time. That has it that is intentional?
For me at stake? Do you want to think like
past it we I've watched all these movies. I never
had any color sort of violent inclinations, but it definitely
I think we have to be truthful that it certainly
can hit someone at the worst time in the the
lion ideas.
Speaker 6: Are we saying ban horror movies?
Speaker 5: No, But to say that it had no impact or
influence on these guys, I don't think would be an
honest take on it, because it clearly did.
Speaker 4: Clearly Citurium if Brian are both thirty five now, and
they did consent to appear on the documentary, and I
was on pins and needles waiting to see if we
were going to hear from them, and I was really
surprised and pleased that we did. What has life been
like for these guys in prison?
Speaker 5: For me going in because I conducted those interviews and
I did it from home with video conference in We
weren't allowed to bring cameras into the actual prison anywhere
in Idaho is a no go, so everything was incremental.
They were fifteen minute video conference and calls that I
had to schedule over and over again.
Speaker 6: I was surprised by there.
Speaker 5: The first thing I made sure I did was save
the name Cassie, so they knew where I was coming from.
I want a total transparency. We're going to talk about everything.
If we're going to do this, we have to talk
about everything.
Speaker 6: And they were up for it. They definitely, in particular Brian.
Speaker 5: I think he's worked on himself for a long time
to figure out who that kid on that tape was
and trying to separate himself from that. And I think
they're still trying to figure out where exactly that all
came from. I had multiple conversations with them, and we
didn't just talk about the case. We talked about everything else.
But for me, they shouldn't have the opportunity to even
have enlightenment on the inside. But I will say that
it is not a good existence inside an institution like that.
It is I don't know how they do it, to
be honest, and it's for them.
Speaker 6: They're thirty five, but they could live to be seventy.
Speaker 2: We're older even or older you do the math.
Speaker 5: They could easily do seventy years on the inside. And
when I talked to Carrie, Brian's father, he said the
moment he realized his son had been had spent more
time inside of prison than out in his life. Yeah,
was the sentenced chills again of like how did life
take this hard left turn?
Speaker 6: And here we are.
Speaker 5: We took carry out to how side of the prison
to talk about this is the house his son has
lived in for the last twenty years. And the fact
that he was willing to do that and show me
what a day in life was for him. Every Sunday
or Saturday, he's going to the maximums Brian is in
medium security, but he's going to the Department of Corrections
to visit his sun.
Speaker 2: The fifteen minute segments, that was just due to the
rules of the prison in terms of how long you
were allowed to talk to the prisoners.
Speaker 5: Correct you could book two sessions, two fifteen minute sessions
back to back. Part of it, and it's there's a
cost that's attached to it, which we weren't worried about,
but it's a way to allow a lot of inmates
obviously want to reach out, and so it's how they
manage it. Technology was not great, broadband quality was within
the documentary, so there was an advantage to doing it
that way as a post just bringing a camera in,
sitting down and getting one opportunity and they could say
you have an hour.
Speaker 6: That's all we would have gotten this.
Speaker 5: I was able to build a rapport with them over
the course of two or three months, and I think
as a result, we compromised quality, but we definitely got
a lot more substance out of it.
Speaker 2: Did you find yourself going back and watching each segment
when it was complete before you got to the next meeting?
Speaker 6: If yeah.
Speaker 5: I never wanted to overwhelm them where they would shut down,
because I said to Tory, I said, I know, I'm
just a reminder of the past. He said, I opened
my eyes and it's a reminder of the past. So
they have just gotten moved past all these things. They
just basically, you're not going to ask me anything that
hasn't I have been already addressed internally. But definitely, like
I would want to disincrementally make sure that we're getting
everything out of them, where that's who they were before,
what led up to them, how they came together the
night of and in the aftermath, and certainly the years
since of Tory saying he woke up one day and
he's twenty five years old and he's, oh my gosh,
what happened gulfs and he came out of this fog?
And that twenty five twenty six is obviously we get
into the brain science of particularly the male brain and
what's going on there, whether people think that should be
a part of this or not.
Speaker 6: It's those milestones.
Speaker 5: I think they just kept coming up as we were
making the documentary.
Speaker 6: I think we have to acknowledge Connor's patients with the
Idaho Department of Corrections, these two prisoners and the parents,
like it was not this was not easy, and he
did it basically all by himself, where it was especially
with Shannon Adamcheck, just baby steps and never giving up
and not being able to find common ground enough to
be able to go to the next step. And it
was very laborious and you can't imagine you can understand
why they are guarded and they they might not want
to talk. It's totally understandable, but Connor like just kept
going and was able to relate to them very well.
Speaker 5: We didn't want it to feel like a hit piece,
because if it was just going to be east there's
good and there's bad, why bring them in? And I
wanted to make them feel like they had Okay, here's
I'm giving. We want to give you guys time to
speak on your behalf because I wanted them to see
a little that I we interview them, We bring them
in and then we pull the rug right out from
under them. And but we don't need to make it
a hippie because they did it themselves, and a tape,
the crime, all of those things obviously speak for themselves.
So we didn't need to elevate any more of the horror.
Just as Paan Draper said to me, this story just
speaks for itself. There's no reason to come in and
dramatize it anymore because it cannot get any worse than
how just the basic facts of this case are.
Speaker 4: Why were Brian and Tory willing to talk?
Speaker 5: Oh, this is the first time Tory, he's actually getting
an interview in the many years. I think they wanted
to speak about life without parole. They want to talk
about theirselfs okay, yeah, and they wanted to talk about
how they are. I think Brian and he does it
in a way where he says he separates himself from
his sixteen year old self to who he is now.
Speaker 6: The sixteen year old is the.
Speaker 5: One that put me here, and I'm now doing the
punishment for his crime. And that is a mindbender. Yeah,
that sometimes it's hard to grapple with. You can just
look at it from the surface, as said in the documentary,
should his age matter? Know, the deed should matter? And
that's as far as we need to look. But as
we've seen with how states have approached these this kind
of sentences for a juvenile, it's a controversy and a
lot of states are doing things differently. The Supreme Court
took it up so clearly it was a topic and
an issue debate that they felt that it was worthy
that it reached all the way to the top on
the judicial branch. So I think that's what they wanted
to do, and it's They've had a lot of time
to think about what they've done and how many lives
they affected, and I think that's going to be the
hardest part for them to watch, is particularly to see
their parents how they have stood by them all this time,
yet their lives have been ruined because of their actions,
and so that weight is, I think is on them
and I think that was part of the reason why
they wanted to participate.
Speaker 2: Will they be permitted to watch the documentary?
Speaker 5: Yes, we sent DVD to each of them, so it
has to go through If they can't stream it, it
has to go to the.
Speaker 6: Director of the prison.
Speaker 5: They will go through, It will then go through a
review process, and then once they thinking that it's appropriate
for them to watch, then they'll be able to watch it.
Speaker 2: Is your expectation that it will clear this process and
that they will ultimately be able to watch it.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I know Brian has watched it. I have not heard
from him, but I don't know about to worry. So
it's reached at least one of them. You've got families
on each side here. You've got Cassie, Joe's family who
very understandably would not want Brian and Tory his sentences
shortened in any way. And I think we all here
can understand that point of view, But you also have
Brian and Torre's families, I who again are seeing it
from the point of view of our kids who have
been in prison more many more years than they have
been out of it, and we would like to see
they're sentence shortened. Do you guys feel knowing with them
and talking with them, do you feel that they have
been truly rehabilitated or are they too dangerous to be
let out into society. I want to say one thing,
and then I think Pat can jump in on this.
I don't think guy, the family, Adam Jux, the Drapers
are asking for this sentence to be shortened. I think
they're asking for just the opportunity to sit in front
of a parole board. I gotcha, Okay, you know, and
I think that is a clear distinction. Do they believe
that they should be really least at some point in
in the near future. What that might be ten years,
twenty years, I'm not sure, but just have some hope
that at least they could have a chance to speak
on them present, who they are today versus who they
were when they committed the crime at sixteen.
Speaker 6: Yeah, the question is very difficult. These are sixteen year
olds that did this horrible thing. But I go back
to the words of the trial judge who sentenced them
to life without parole, and he said, you guys made
a list of people you want to kill, and you
said you wanted to kill Cassie, and you did kill Cassie.
How am I to know that if I let you,
if someday you're out, that you won't do that. I
can't know that you wrote down that you wanted to
kill these people. You said on camera you wanted to
kill a person and did it. So why would I
ever take and why would the State of Idaho ever
take that risk to let you out? Now, these guys
are clearly different people than when this happened. But if
you're if you're the judge, and if you're the state
of Idaho, and these kids have murdered someone after clearly
stating their intentions to murder someone and then have a
list of other people they want to murder, you can
see why that life without parole sentence starts to make
more sense. I think, like Connor said, the families and
even some of the law enforcement we talked to, especially
with Brian, because he did give it up. The lead
investigator John Gansky told us he did cooperate, and cooperations
should get you something, and in his opinion, that something
was a chance at a parole board someday. Now not
in the foreseeable future, but someday he should be able
to at least go to a parole board. Tory, nobody
really seemed to think he should get a second chance,
but Brian, because of what his cooperation, they thought that
he should get another chance.
Speaker 4: And is that why Brian is in medium security and
Tories in Max.
Speaker 5: It's I think it really has to do with job opportunity.
Speaker 6: It's got a good answer.
Speaker 5: Or Tory said he got a job that he could
do and it would be MAX, but he'd be in
a particular wing within maxim security, so he took it.
Speaker 6: So I don't think that it's about who's been better.
Speaker 5: But I will say that Brian has spent a lot
of time as a mentor restorative promise and how he
would look at it and how he explained to me.
This is not something we go into the documentary, but
he says, Hey, get these kids to come in. Maybe
they corjacked, he committed somewhat of a violent crime, but
they are going to get out in five years, and
he wants to help them to make sure that they
don't come back and spend the rest of their life
like he is. He said, I don't want to be
the example, by I am the example. So if I
can prevent this kid from go back out there and
ended up killing someone, I feel like I am trying
to save lives in the future, and that's a bit petty,
and that's the best that he can do. And I
think that if he feels that, if he just continues that,
then maybe some days someone goes, Okay, you know what
you just did forty years of trying to send these
kids back out to be upstanding citizens, get jobs, get married,
have kids. Maybe then at that point would he get
a consideration.
Speaker 2: Do you two, as documentary filmmakers, feel that your own
personal attitudes towards Tory and Brian shifted at all over
the course of researching and putting together the series.
Speaker 5: I would say yes, because of my direct relationships with
the parents and with Brian and Tory. Pat has a
different angle because obviously he met Anna, Cassie's mother, and
that clearly has had a lasting impression on him.
Speaker 6: It's hard I have kids.
Speaker 5: They were running around upstairs as I was conducting interviews,
and that was always in the back of my mind.
And recently I just realized that my daughter, in just
a few years, will have lived a longer life than
Cassie did. And my daughter is a child, so that
if someone took her from me, how do you have
you guys unfortunately experienced it to be able to recover,
particularly losing a child in that way. However, I hear
I am speaking to too seemingly intelligent, able bodied human
beings and just languishing, And I wonder if there's something
in the middle. Ye Wan, Brian and Torri. We don't
want to run into him at the local walmart. I
don't think anybody is for that. But on this other
side of them, just walking these long corridors of center
blocks and bars, is there something else that they could
be put towards, some kind of redemptive program of some
that allows them to give something back to society because
they had taken so much from so many people. I
think there's I think there's room for that. So your answer, yes,
I have evolved a little bit, but it's hard to
be to commit.
Speaker 6: I haven't experienced a violent crime directly.
Speaker 5: Obviously, I've worked with a lot of people over the
years and keep in touch with still to this day,
so I have to acknowledge that it's.
Speaker 6: How can you ask someone who has lost a family.
Speaker 5: Member to violence to to say, Okay, maybe it is
time for them to get an opportunity to do something
that other than sit inside a jail.
Speaker 2: Still, Pat, what do you think for my money?
Speaker 6: I guess it's I guess you could call in an
evolution or a change in thinking, but not in a
not a favorable way to either of them. I guess
what I would say is that when I first did
this story, I really thought that Tory was a pure
psychopath and that he was very dangerous, and if it
wasn't this, it would have been something else, and that
Brian was not along for the ride. I never thought that.
But if there was a hierarchy, Tory was in charge.
And my thinking has shifted only in the negative to Brian,
which is I think that he is also just as
to blame for this. That's how I've changed is I
used to think one of them was a leader and
one is a follower. Now I think it's more equal
and they're equally bad. I don't know if there's any redemption.
I don't their parents can go see them in prison,
and Cassie's family has to go to the graveyard. So
that always stays with me. Yeah, but again I didn't
talk to them the way Connor did, and as adults,
I met Tory when he was maybe eighteen, after that,
maybe nineteen. So yeah, to answer your question, it has change,
is styt worse?
Speaker 4: What do you ultimately what do you ultimately want the
people who watched this to take away from it? What
would you I don't know, like two or three key
to This is such a high school teacher question to ask,
but that's what I am. What are your two to
three key takeaways that you want people to walk away
from having watched this documentary to come away with?
Speaker 5: I mean, I think it's we talked about earlier with
the purpose. What is the purpose of this? And my
father in law I think grabbed it the most. He
watched it and he said, every parent and should watch
this documentary as a cautionary tale. We're still having this
conversation about teen crisis, particularly the boys and what's happening,
and they're the ones committing crimes.
Speaker 6: The influence of the Internet.
Speaker 5: Brian and Tory were the early stages of YouTube, and
they could easily go into some really dark places, and
they did, and they had access to go in really
dark places. And it's hard to be a parent. But
it's obviously we're battling this now. We all day to
put our phones down. We need to talk to each
other more at the kitchen table. I know that sounds hokey,
but for me, it's just like you eat roles. You
really want to stay in touch with your kids. And
I think with the drapers and the atom checks, both
are still what did I miss? What didn't I do?
Did I do too much of this? Was I on
the roadad too much? Was I so focused on making money?
Did I push them to take to play baseball when
we wanted to play the flute.
Speaker 6: There's all these things that you grapple.
Speaker 5: With on how a kid could go to such a
dark place, not one two and find each other in
a town of fifty thousand people and the other corner
of Idaho, which is an whole other thing, like how
did those two find each other? It has such a
common darkness, and I think that unfortunately for the Drapers
and the Atom Checks. They were so honest about it,
and I think we should at least peak something away
from that that we need to take just we need
to pay attention to our kids more, and I think
that's the hardest thing. We're so busy where we help
our careers and everything else, and you never know what
your kids think, what they're watching, who they're befriending on
the street. And I think for that is that's the
real takeaway from my sense. I thought that's what the
value of making this documentary was really, that was the core.
Speaker 4: Of pat How about you.
Speaker 6: I'm not sure if the takeaway that I have is
as enlightened or hopeful as that. I think it's more fear.
I think it's I think it's a terror, and it's
a terror on many levels. It's a terror to think
what Cassie was going through in her last moments, and
it's a terror to think that there could be kids
like this walking around a high school right now. And
it's a terror to think that these parents that Adam
Checks and the Drapers were really good parents. They were present,
they had jobs, there was no drugs or alcohol problems
these parents. Did you know everything right. I don't know
about everything, but they didn't. They seem to be doing
everything right, and this still happened. And that's terror that
you can do every single right, and you don't know.
When your kid goes upstairs and he turns on the internet,
he could be into the darkest place in the world
in seconds. And you don't know that when Hong Kong,
your son's friend comes to pick him up to go
out for the night, where they're really going. That's the terror.
I think it's terror all around. And also for the
town to think that this could happen in this little
Mormon town in Idaho. So to me, it's more of
a gut level like this. This was a This was
a horror all around world.
Speaker 4: Which makes it very fitting a true teen horror story.
The series it ends the Scream Murder, a true teen
horror story now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus.
Connor pat Any final words.
Speaker 6: Teern In It's a hard watch, but it's loaded.
Speaker 5: We want people to watch it, but be prepared that
they know what they're getting into before they hit playing.
Speaker 6: That's what I would say too, is that this podcast
is for true crime people and if you are a
true crime person. Not to give my own show a
big plug, this is almost like a must watch. You
will not have seen anything like this. I don't mean
to be so open about it, but true crime people
that are listening watch this. You're not going to see
anything like this tape. Period.
Speaker 4: Yeah. It is a real it is a real moment
of absolute, true, chilling horror. It's an amazing series, you guys,
and we cannot thank you enough for joining us. This
has been wonderful.
Speaker 6: Thank you for having us. Yes, thank you.
Speaker 4: That is going to do it to this episode of
mind Ever Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll
see you next time.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and
Another Dog Productions.
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McCloud.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media.
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway
Murders on Facebook.
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at
Bill Thomas five six.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder,