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<v Speaker 1>Today, we're tackling a troubling, yet all too familiar story

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<v Speaker 1>coming out of one of Texas's large megachurches, Gateway Church.

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<v Speaker 1>In just two months, four of its leaders, including executive

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<v Speaker 1>Pastor Ken Taul Glasgow, have been forced to step down

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<v Speaker 1>over various moral failings. This shocking involves the church's former

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<v Speaker 1>senior pastor, Robert Morris, who's resigned after admitting to a

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<v Speaker 1>relationship with a twelve year old girl when he was

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<v Speaker 1>twenty one. As more allegation surface, we're left questioning the

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<v Speaker 1>culture of secrecy and power within these institutions. How does

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<v Speaker 1>a community meant to be built on trust and moral

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<v Speaker 1>integrity repeatedly fail to protect its most vulnerable members. Let's

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<v Speaker 1>dig into this and examine the implications from a skeptical

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<v Speaker 1>humanist perspective. This story is from USA Today by Jonathan

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<v Speaker 1>Lymehouse from August twenty second, twenty four. So I'm coming

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<v Speaker 1>to you first, mister Dicky. Hello, how are you doing.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm doing great, Cynthia, Yeah, despite the story, but right right,

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<v Speaker 1>But I'm curious if you could just kind of expand

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<v Speaker 1>on what does the pattern of leadership failures at Gateway

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<v Speaker 1>Church suggest about the effectiveness of religious institutions and holding

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<v Speaker 1>their leader's account.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, well, first of all, we hear stories like this

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<v Speaker 2>all the time, and it's really and of course it's

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<v Speaker 2>one of I think it's one of the staple types

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<v Speaker 2>of arguments that we cover here on the nonprofits is

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<v Speaker 2>the failure of religious leaders. And I think what makes

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<v Speaker 2>it so interesting is not so much that there's human

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<v Speaker 2>beings that are failing. It's that there are human beings

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<v Speaker 2>that are supposed to be held up to the higher standard.

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<v Speaker 2>They're supposed to be. The expectations are higher, the responsibility

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<v Speaker 2>is higher, the level of trust certainly is higher than

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<v Speaker 2>you would just you know, somebody walking in off the

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<v Speaker 2>street or even other other professions that are normally trusted,

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<v Speaker 2>like teachers and that kind of thing. You know, people

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<v Speaker 2>uh can will trust their religious leaders. And I think

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<v Speaker 2>it has to something to do with with the halo effect,

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<v Speaker 2>uh ironically that and that is that when there's people

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<v Speaker 2>in positions of authority or people that are particularly skilled

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<v Speaker 2>at one in one particular area, very often others onlookers

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<v Speaker 2>will uh that that respect and that admiration and that

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<v Speaker 2>deference will kind of spill over into other areas and

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<v Speaker 2>so here we have people that are religious leaders, they're

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<v Speaker 2>church leaders. They're you know, they're the ones performing the marriages,

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<v Speaker 2>they're the ones leading the Sunday morning services, they're the

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<v Speaker 2>ones that are taking attendance in the in the Sunday schools,

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<v Speaker 2>they're they're the ones that are visiting the hospitals and

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<v Speaker 2>so forth. And so there's this high level of trust there.

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<v Speaker 2>And obviously there, you know, somebody is being neglectful here.

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<v Speaker 2>There's and I think it primarily falls on the shoulders

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<v Speaker 2>of the parishioners. I think that if they I think

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<v Speaker 2>some skeptical eyes need to be kind of thrown into

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<v Speaker 2>the mix here. To answer your question, they do a

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<v Speaker 2>crappy job of policing this kind of thing, of living

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<v Speaker 2>up to this already inflated standard. It's it's really very

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<v Speaker 2>frustrating and for me personally, it's one of the most

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<v Speaker 2>annoying things about religion that there is is that is

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<v Speaker 2>that unearned trust?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I hear that. So let's go ahead and just

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<v Speaker 1>like build upon that, Jonathan, In what ways does the

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<v Speaker 1>concept of restoration and healing? No, actually, no, let's not

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<v Speaker 1>do that. Let's do this. How the church's response to

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<v Speaker 1>moral failings reflect broader societal issues relating to power, secrecy

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<v Speaker 1>and the protection of vulnerable individual.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's that's something that bothers me is these people,

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<v Speaker 3>particularly this church, they made a lot out of it

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<v Speaker 3>that we you know, we care and love about these

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<v Speaker 3>pastors and you know, and we want to help them

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<v Speaker 3>and pray for them and all that. What about the victim,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, it's like they fail at even attempting to

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<v Speaker 3>listen to the victim. She spent thirty five years complaining

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<v Speaker 3>about this to the church leadership, and they did nothing

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<v Speaker 3>about it. When it finally she brought it out in public,

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<v Speaker 3>that's when they decided that they had to do something

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<v Speaker 3>about it. So it's obvious they don't care about this

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<v Speaker 3>at all. So that's one of the things. But they

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<v Speaker 3>can get away with that because they're a religious organization

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<v Speaker 3>and they're supposed to be moral. And again, like he said,

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<v Speaker 3>that's but they leave the victims of this in the dust,

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<v Speaker 3>including their own parishioners. They're not doing any services by

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<v Speaker 3>hiding people who were committing crimes. Like Richard Morris is

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<v Speaker 3>a pedophile, you know, and he said that he has

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<v Speaker 3>stopped doing it after abusing a young girl twelve to

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<v Speaker 3>seventeen years old for five years, please you know. And

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<v Speaker 3>two of the people who were recently dismissed were his

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<v Speaker 3>son James and his wife. Now, I'm not going to

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<v Speaker 3>speculate on particularly why they just said moral failings. That

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<v Speaker 3>could be they knew about it and didn't do anything

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<v Speaker 3>about it. That kind of gives me the idea that

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<v Speaker 3>the not the current guy. He could have had his

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<v Speaker 3>own issues. But they also asked three members of the

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<v Speaker 3>board of elders their board of directors or board of

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<v Speaker 3>trustees depending on what kind of church belonged to that

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<v Speaker 3>we're serving at the same time of the abuse. And

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<v Speaker 3>they say they're not implicated in any wrongdoing yet. Well,

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<v Speaker 3>they said any wrongdoing and that would be yet because

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<v Speaker 3>the investigation by this supposedly independent law firm, which I'm

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<v Speaker 3>sure I have not had a chance to see what

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<v Speaker 3>that law firms ties to the church are. But yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>this is where this is coming from. That law firm

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<v Speaker 3>was the one who asked James Morris and his wife

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<v Speaker 3>to take a leave of absence so that they could

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<v Speaker 3>do the investigation without them there. So this is just

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<v Speaker 3>really disgustingly weird. But the thing that bothers me the

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<v Speaker 3>most is that in the broader society we have a

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<v Speaker 3>means of dealing with pedophiles and people who are enablers

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<v Speaker 3>of pedophiles. It's called the law. Churches have always thought

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<v Speaker 3>that they were above the law, and so they hide

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<v Speaker 3>these things so that they and they shame their parishioners

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<v Speaker 3>who have been abused, and they try and keep them

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<v Speaker 3>from going public so they don't have to deal with

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<v Speaker 3>the police or the FBI. And that's a societal issue

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<v Speaker 3>because we need to drop the pretense and realize that ministers,

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<v Speaker 3>youth pastors, and pastors and priests are all human beings.

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<v Speaker 3>They have the same problems as the general population, and

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<v Speaker 3>they need to be held accountable for their actions. They're

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<v Speaker 3>not going to do anything to these people. That is

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<v Speaker 3>what should be done to them. Morris himself, the father

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<v Speaker 3>should be in jail. Yeah, I'm sorry. He should be

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<v Speaker 3>in jail. He should be on a sexual predator's list

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<v Speaker 3>for the rest of his life. He should be in

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<v Speaker 3>jail for at least twenty to forty years. I'm saying

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<v Speaker 3>now sixty to eighty because and I think that the

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<v Speaker 3>people in that church who knew about it should be

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<v Speaker 3>in jail too, for at least as long as they

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<v Speaker 3>didn't listen to the victim in this. That would be

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<v Speaker 3>about thirty five years and might be considered a little harsh.

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<v Speaker 3>But for me, you let her suffer all those years

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<v Speaker 3>and you didn't give her any solace whatsoever. You didn't

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<v Speaker 3>pay for her therapy, none of that, And they should have.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, it was their person who was in power

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<v Speaker 3>and had power over these people, and power dynamics are

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<v Speaker 3>the best way for pedophiles and abuse of people to

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<v Speaker 3>be because they get to do that largely without impunity,

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<v Speaker 3>with impunity and without the victims feeling like they can

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<v Speaker 3>come forward and not be demonized for attacking the wonderful

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<v Speaker 3>whatever it is. So that's my words on that.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know, I have to always reiterate when you

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<v Speaker 1>have behaviors like the crimes of you know, forced sexual act, abuse, violence,

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<v Speaker 1>because all of those things, all of those acts really

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<v Speaker 1>are acts of violence. It's not about attraction. It's always

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<v Speaker 1>about power and to be able to control another individual

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<v Speaker 1>or a group of individuals with that power and forcing

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<v Speaker 1>them into silence, saying this is our secret, this is

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<v Speaker 1>between me and you, and kind of like what color

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<v Speaker 1>Purple said, you better not tell nobody, but god, it'll

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<v Speaker 1>kill your mama. But the thing is, but the thing

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<v Speaker 1>is is that the person that is, like, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>experiencing the abuse is listening into them saying things like that,

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<v Speaker 1>and they're not you know, they're not going to open

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<v Speaker 1>their mouth because of course they are concerned about, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the person that's doing the abuse and what other things

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<v Speaker 1>that they might do if they tell. And then to

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<v Speaker 1>your point, Jonathan, yeah, to tell, right, and so their mom, right, exactly,

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<v Speaker 1>their mom, their dad, you know, whomever you know happens

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<v Speaker 1>to be a parental figure in their life. And and

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<v Speaker 1>it's very it's and it's very disgusting in my eyes

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<v Speaker 1>that you know, this is a culture, a pervasive culture

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<v Speaker 1>that actually has happened and continues to happen in church

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<v Speaker 1>no matter what denomination that it happens to be in.

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<v Speaker 1>And instead of the people who are being victimized, they're

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<v Speaker 1>not getting help because they because we as a society

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<v Speaker 1>think that the church is able to police itself, and

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<v Speaker 1>obviously that's not the case. So Cindy, I'm coming to

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<v Speaker 1>you because you know, one of the things that you

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned is how it struck you how people that were

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<v Speaker 1>being interviewed in the article and pointed out how child

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<v Speaker 1>abusers behaved since the abuse. Can you expand on your

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<v Speaker 1>thoughts a bit of concerning.

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<v Speaker 4>That, Yeah, yeah, I'm totally we with you guys regarding

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<v Speaker 4>the idea that this halo effect that exists, the idea

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<v Speaker 4>that because they are parishioners or whatever or leader of

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<v Speaker 4>their churches, they are somehow better than the rest of us.

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<v Speaker 4>They did nothing, and no religion did anything in the

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<v Speaker 4>last fifteen hundred years to deserve this difference. And I

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<v Speaker 4>think that's something we need to voice very strongly because

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<v Speaker 4>this idea that they're better somehow, it still exists today,

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<v Speaker 4>and after the thousands of cases and the hundreds of

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<v Speaker 4>cases we've covered here on the nonprofits, this idea is

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<v Speaker 4>still very much pregnant. So, yeah, this this reaction that

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<v Speaker 4>we saw in the in the article from from all

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<v Speaker 4>the people that were interviewed, it was yeah, but you know,

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<v Speaker 4>he did a bad thing, but now he's he's he's

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<v Speaker 4>a good person. You know, he's helping the church, he's

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<v Speaker 4>guiding hers, blah blah blah. And that stems from the

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<v Speaker 4>idea that we see a lot in Christianity actually that

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<v Speaker 4>each wrong has to be some kind of balanced with

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<v Speaker 4>a certain amount of good actions. We see that very

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<v Speaker 4>very often in movies and TV shows, American ones. But

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<v Speaker 4>that's not how it works. You need to pay for

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<v Speaker 4>your crimes through the human justice system and not pretend

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<v Speaker 4>that the supposedly good you did so far somehow unifies

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<v Speaker 4>the the harm you cause, because, as you pointed out,

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<v Speaker 4>the victim here, she never got any I don't like

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<v Speaker 4>the word compensation because we think about money, but any

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<v Speaker 4>recognition that she is a victim, and every everything that

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<v Speaker 4>that it says that, yeah, he behaves since that it

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<v Speaker 4>sounds like they're they they're just saying, yeah, he did

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<v Speaker 4>a bad thing.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you know.

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<v Speaker 4>It's almost as if they are saying, yeah, the devil

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<v Speaker 4>made him and him do it, but he's actually a

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<v Speaker 4>good person, you know. So yeah, this this idea that

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<v Speaker 4>this act is not deserving of well, it's not an

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<v Speaker 4>act because it lasts four five years far member correctly.

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<v Speaker 4>So this, this horrendous situation shouldn't exist, and it shouldn't be,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, pushed over by some supposedly good actions that

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<v Speaker 4>the perpetrator did, because what what also infuriates me is

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<v Speaker 4>that when you look at the political climate in the

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<v Speaker 4>US right now, one of the the rights may not

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<v Speaker 4>is that the left is uh is full of rapists

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<v Speaker 4>and all that kind of stuff. And what we see

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<v Speaker 4>is that actually the rapists are on their side uh

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<v Speaker 4>and and they are almighty and and uh and and

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<v Speaker 4>and are pure and in reality, they're just the worst people,

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<v Speaker 4>and they try to hide it, and they try to

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<v Speaker 4>avoid any consequence. And that just kills me.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, definitely, Yeah, I hear you.

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<v Speaker 1>I hear you when you say that. And and I

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<v Speaker 1>know that we kind of touched a bit about, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the the restoration healing versus actually holding these people who

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<v Speaker 1>commit these act to justice and accountability and not necessarily

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<v Speaker 1>seeing that after so many cases, as you pointed out, Cindy,

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<v Speaker 1>that we've covered just on the nonprofits alone, about constantly

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<v Speaker 1>hearing about church leaders who happen to engage in moral

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<v Speaker 1>failings and have to step down. But they but the

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<v Speaker 1>only thing that is there that they're actually receiving is

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<v Speaker 1>just a you know, like a oh, you got caught,

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<v Speaker 1>so you need to go ahead and get in the

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<v Speaker 1>corner and go on time out. And and that's unfortunate

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<v Speaker 1>and and I think that we should really talk more

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<v Speaker 1>about what where where do we go from here? Because

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<v Speaker 1>like we we are constantly talking about how there is

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<v Speaker 1>no oversight, there is no checks and balances, there is

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<v Speaker 1>even though you may have a governing body over these

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<v Speaker 1>church leaders, they're still going to only be more inclined

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<v Speaker 1>to protect the church and the church's name rather than

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<v Speaker 1>actually protecting the constituents that have been abused or the

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<v Speaker 1>parishioners that have been abused. So how can we critically

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<v Speaker 1>assess because I do recognize that we may have a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit of a bias here, guys, I don't know

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<v Speaker 1>if you know is that, but you know, how can

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<v Speaker 1>we critically assess the large in large the role of

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<v Speaker 1>religious organizations in addressing or failing to address the allegations

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<v Speaker 1>of abuse and misconduct amongst their leadership. Jonathan, I would

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<v Speaker 1>like for you to start, and then a Scott and

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<v Speaker 1>then and then Cindy's.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, Well, one thing that I just want to say

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<v Speaker 3>is when I was in the Navy, we had a

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<v Speaker 3>saying one off, shit wipes out a world of attaboys,

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<v Speaker 3>So you know that was how they worked. I think

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<v Speaker 3>that one way we can start getting ahead of this

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<v Speaker 3>is to I think, get the churches to post who

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<v Speaker 3>they can call if they're having problems like that, and

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<v Speaker 3>let the law enforcement take the actions they need to take.

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<v Speaker 3>And they should be looking at not just the offender,

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<v Speaker 3>but the enablers as co conspirators in this crime. And

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<v Speaker 3>you know, they are either post facto or or during

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<v Speaker 3>the crime, they are enabling it and they're not reporting it,

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<v Speaker 3>so there should be a penalty for them too. And

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<v Speaker 3>if that wipes out your entire church leadership, maybe your

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<v Speaker 3>church doesn't need to exist, you know. So you know that,

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<v Speaker 3>and I'm totally totally aware of my biases in this situation.

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<v Speaker 3>I have many of them, but and I won't go

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<v Speaker 3>into them, but you know, so for that, I would

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<v Speaker 3>just say, let's let the laws we have and maybe

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<v Speaker 3>change a few to make sure that churches cannot hide

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<v Speaker 3>this kind of behavior anymore.

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<v Speaker 2>I guess it's Scott, Yeah, sure, Yeah, Cynthia, you mentioned

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<v Speaker 2>a couple of words. They're justice and accountability. I think

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<v Speaker 2>those are key, and Cindy and Jonathan we're both talking

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<v Speaker 2>about legal issues as well. The thing is, I mean, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>we're biased. You know, that's probably one of the reasons

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<v Speaker 2>we chose this story. But what we're asking, we're what

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<v Speaker 2>we're saying is needed here, and I mean, if you

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<v Speaker 2>listen to what we're saying, we're just asking for the

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<v Speaker 2>same justice and accountability that everybody is expected to take

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<v Speaker 2>a part in. And there was a quote in the

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<v Speaker 2>article that just really really pissed me off. The quote

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<v Speaker 2>goes in June, Gateway senior pastor Robert Morris resigned after

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<v Speaker 2>admitting to having quote inappropriate sexual behavior with a young

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<v Speaker 2>lady thirty five years ago. The young lady in question

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<v Speaker 2>had been twelve, and Morris was twenty one and married. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>so let's get our terms straight here. We're not talking

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, yeah, technically inappropriate sexual behavior with a young

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<v Speaker 2>lady is technically true, but that's not the whole truth. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>he raped a child. Okay, this is statutory rape, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's what we're talking about here. And so the accountability

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<v Speaker 2>that we're asking for is the same accountability that any

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<v Speaker 2>organization would would be expected to be a party two

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<v Speaker 2>and the same justice is going to be the same

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<v Speaker 2>that we would expect of anybody, whether they be a minister,

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<v Speaker 2>a teacher, or whatever. Okay, And that's all we're asking

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<v Speaker 2>for if they commit a crime, they hurt a child,

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<v Speaker 2>they deserve to, you know, to be judged by a

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<v Speaker 2>jury of their peers, just like anybody else. And that's really,

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<v Speaker 2>that's all we're asking for, is just come on, people,

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<v Speaker 2>Let's just hold up the same the same standards that

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<v Speaker 2>everybody has to live with. That's what we're saying.

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<v Speaker 1>Come on, guys, come on exactly, Yeah, exactly, Cindy, what

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<v Speaker 1>say you?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah. On top of everything we were talking about right now,

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<v Speaker 4>I just like to point out that when you go

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<v Speaker 4>through something like that, you cannot heal until you are

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<v Speaker 4>really recognized as a victim. So it means that on

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<v Speaker 4>top of what she went through, which is already horrible,

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<v Speaker 4>she had to fight for like thirty years to be

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<v Speaker 4>acknowledged as a victim, and so all these times she

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<v Speaker 4>would not heal. And so on top of the harm

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<v Speaker 4>that she went through during those five years, they added

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<v Speaker 4>insult to injury during those thirty years. And I think

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<v Speaker 4>we need to take that into account. Regarding the legal

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<v Speaker 4>aspect of this, I think it starts with political will.

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<v Speaker 4>I seem to remember that two or three years ago

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<v Speaker 4>we did a show on their own profits about the

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<v Speaker 4>situation like this in France because someone said that God's

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<v Speaker 4>law was above men'slow some things like that. And the

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<v Speaker 4>way you start fighting this is by removing the exemption

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<v Speaker 4>for confession because in many countries and probably in many

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<v Speaker 4>states in the US, confession has the same level of

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<v Speaker 4>secrecy then you know, doctor patient secrecy or lawyer client

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<v Speaker 4>and that shouldn't exist because it comes from the idea

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<v Speaker 4>that the pastor or the father or whatever has some

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<v Speaker 4>more authority, and they don't. They don't. So remove this

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<v Speaker 4>authority by saying that if you are victim or if

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<v Speaker 4>you know about something, you have zero legal protection if

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<v Speaker 4>you don't say it. And starting with this would change slowly.

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<v Speaker 4>Mentalities in these regards, they're compulsive.

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<v Speaker 2>Cindy, I'm so glad you brought up the victims perspective there.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, that was something that it's easy to point

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<v Speaker 2>fingers at the person doing the crime, but you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we need to remember that, you know, there's victim there

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<v Speaker 2>and they need to be addressed, and their needs need

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<v Speaker 2>to be addressed, and they're they're long term, decades long

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<v Speaker 2>pain has to be at the very least addressed so

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<v Speaker 2>that they can Yeah, like you were saying you like,

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<v Speaker 2>so that they can be in the healing process.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's always to recognize, recognize those things for the

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<v Speaker 1>person who has been victimized to get the necessary healing

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<v Speaker 1>and also recognition and to be honest with you guys,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't necessarily mind compensation because but I understand it's

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<v Speaker 1>not just about money. But you know, when you're thinking

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<v Speaker 1>about lifetime of therapy, when you're thinking about you know,

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<v Speaker 1>even the possibility of that person being interrupted in their

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<v Speaker 1>development and not being able to do things like hold

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<v Speaker 1>a job, purchase a home, even be able to have

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<v Speaker 1>their own families because they are so traumatized by what

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<v Speaker 1>has happened to them. I don't necessarily think that, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>taking care of them in that particular aspect is not

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<v Speaker 1>a bad idea, but it's.

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<v Speaker 2>A small thing, but it's better than.

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<v Speaker 1>Nothing exactly exactly. It is a start.

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<v Speaker 3>Well.

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<v Speaker 1>Churches are supposed to be well. They're supposed to be

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<v Speaker 1>places that are serving as a moral guide, but too

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<v Speaker 1>often lack the necessary oversight to prevent abuses of power.

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<v Speaker 1>Expressing regret after the fact isn't enough. There needs to

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<v Speaker 1>be immediate and transparent consequences to protect the vulnerable to

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<v Speaker 1>possibly restore trust. The failure to address these issues promptly

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<v Speaker 1>and effectively damages not only the congregation but the wider

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<v Speaker 1>faith community. It's pastime for churches to implement real checks

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<v Speaker 1>and balances and invite independent oversight to ensure leaders are

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<v Speaker 1>held to the highest standards they supposedly preach. Unfortunately, integrity

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<v Speaker 1>of the faith has faltered and goals post moved to

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<v Speaker 1>focus on drag Time, Story Hour instead of their own

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<v Speaker 1>moral failings of abuse and scandal being on display.