Speaker 1: Today, we're tackling a troubling, yet all too familiar story
Speaker 1: coming out of one of Texas's large megachurches, Gateway Church.
Speaker 1: In just two months, four of its leaders, including executive
Speaker 1: Pastor Ken Taul Glasgow, have been forced to step down
Speaker 1: over various moral failings. This shocking involves the church's former
Speaker 1: senior pastor, Robert Morris, who's resigned after admitting to a
Speaker 1: relationship with a twelve year old girl when he was
Speaker 1: twenty one. As more allegation surface, we're left questioning the
Speaker 1: culture of secrecy and power within these institutions. How does
Speaker 1: a community meant to be built on trust and moral
Speaker 1: integrity repeatedly fail to protect its most vulnerable members. Let's
Speaker 1: dig into this and examine the implications from a skeptical
Speaker 1: humanist perspective. This story is from USA Today by Jonathan
Speaker 1: Lymehouse from August twenty second, twenty four. So I'm coming
Speaker 1: to you first, mister Dicky. Hello, how are you doing.
Speaker 1: I'm doing great, Cynthia, Yeah, despite the story, but right right,
Speaker 1: But I'm curious if you could just kind of expand
Speaker 1: on what does the pattern of leadership failures at Gateway
Speaker 1: Church suggest about the effectiveness of religious institutions and holding
Speaker 1: their leader's account.
Speaker 2: Well, well, first of all, we hear stories like this
Speaker 2: all the time, and it's really and of course it's
Speaker 2: one of I think it's one of the staple types
Speaker 2: of arguments that we cover here on the nonprofits is
Speaker 2: the failure of religious leaders. And I think what makes
Speaker 2: it so interesting is not so much that there's human
Speaker 2: beings that are failing. It's that there are human beings
Speaker 2: that are supposed to be held up to the higher standard.
Speaker 2: They're supposed to be. The expectations are higher, the responsibility
Speaker 2: is higher, the level of trust certainly is higher than
Speaker 2: you would just you know, somebody walking in off the
Speaker 2: street or even other other professions that are normally trusted,
Speaker 2: like teachers and that kind of thing. You know, people
Speaker 2: uh can will trust their religious leaders. And I think
Speaker 2: it has to something to do with with the halo effect,
Speaker 2: uh ironically that and that is that when there's people
Speaker 2: in positions of authority or people that are particularly skilled
Speaker 2: at one in one particular area, very often others onlookers
Speaker 2: will uh that that respect and that admiration and that
Speaker 2: deference will kind of spill over into other areas and
Speaker 2: so here we have people that are religious leaders, they're
Speaker 2: church leaders. They're you know, they're the ones performing the marriages,
Speaker 2: they're the ones leading the Sunday morning services, they're the
Speaker 2: ones that are taking attendance in the in the Sunday schools,
Speaker 2: they're they're the ones that are visiting the hospitals and
Speaker 2: so forth. And so there's this high level of trust there.
Speaker 2: And obviously there, you know, somebody is being neglectful here.
Speaker 2: There's and I think it primarily falls on the shoulders
Speaker 2: of the parishioners. I think that if they I think
Speaker 2: some skeptical eyes need to be kind of thrown into
Speaker 2: the mix here. To answer your question, they do a
Speaker 2: crappy job of policing this kind of thing, of living
Speaker 2: up to this already inflated standard. It's it's really very
Speaker 2: frustrating and for me personally, it's one of the most
Speaker 2: annoying things about religion that there is is that is
Speaker 2: that unearned trust?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I hear that. So let's go ahead and just
Speaker 1: like build upon that, Jonathan, In what ways does the
Speaker 1: concept of restoration and healing? No, actually, no, let's not
Speaker 1: do that. Let's do this. How the church's response to
Speaker 1: moral failings reflect broader societal issues relating to power, secrecy
Speaker 1: and the protection of vulnerable individual.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's something that bothers me is these people,
Speaker 3: particularly this church, they made a lot out of it
Speaker 3: that we you know, we care and love about these
Speaker 3: pastors and you know, and we want to help them
Speaker 3: and pray for them and all that. What about the victim,
Speaker 3: you know, it's like they fail at even attempting to
Speaker 3: listen to the victim. She spent thirty five years complaining
Speaker 3: about this to the church leadership, and they did nothing
Speaker 3: about it. When it finally she brought it out in public,
Speaker 3: that's when they decided that they had to do something
Speaker 3: about it. So it's obvious they don't care about this
Speaker 3: at all. So that's one of the things. But they
Speaker 3: can get away with that because they're a religious organization
Speaker 3: and they're supposed to be moral. And again, like he said,
Speaker 3: that's but they leave the victims of this in the dust,
Speaker 3: including their own parishioners. They're not doing any services by
Speaker 3: hiding people who were committing crimes. Like Richard Morris is
Speaker 3: a pedophile, you know, and he said that he has
Speaker 3: stopped doing it after abusing a young girl twelve to
Speaker 3: seventeen years old for five years, please you know. And
Speaker 3: two of the people who were recently dismissed were his
Speaker 3: son James and his wife. Now, I'm not going to
Speaker 3: speculate on particularly why they just said moral failings. That
Speaker 3: could be they knew about it and didn't do anything
Speaker 3: about it. That kind of gives me the idea that
Speaker 3: the not the current guy. He could have had his
Speaker 3: own issues. But they also asked three members of the
Speaker 3: board of elders their board of directors or board of
Speaker 3: trustees depending on what kind of church belonged to that
Speaker 3: we're serving at the same time of the abuse. And
Speaker 3: they say they're not implicated in any wrongdoing yet. Well,
Speaker 3: they said any wrongdoing and that would be yet because
Speaker 3: the investigation by this supposedly independent law firm, which I'm
Speaker 3: sure I have not had a chance to see what
Speaker 3: that law firms ties to the church are. But yeah,
Speaker 3: this is where this is coming from. That law firm
Speaker 3: was the one who asked James Morris and his wife
Speaker 3: to take a leave of absence so that they could
Speaker 3: do the investigation without them there. So this is just
Speaker 3: really disgustingly weird. But the thing that bothers me the
Speaker 3: most is that in the broader society we have a
Speaker 3: means of dealing with pedophiles and people who are enablers
Speaker 3: of pedophiles. It's called the law. Churches have always thought
Speaker 3: that they were above the law, and so they hide
Speaker 3: these things so that they and they shame their parishioners
Speaker 3: who have been abused, and they try and keep them
Speaker 3: from going public so they don't have to deal with
Speaker 3: the police or the FBI. And that's a societal issue
Speaker 3: because we need to drop the pretense and realize that ministers,
Speaker 3: youth pastors, and pastors and priests are all human beings.
Speaker 3: They have the same problems as the general population, and
Speaker 3: they need to be held accountable for their actions. They're
Speaker 3: not going to do anything to these people. That is
Speaker 3: what should be done to them. Morris himself, the father
Speaker 3: should be in jail. Yeah, I'm sorry. He should be
Speaker 3: in jail. He should be on a sexual predator's list
Speaker 3: for the rest of his life. He should be in
Speaker 3: jail for at least twenty to forty years. I'm saying
Speaker 3: now sixty to eighty because and I think that the
Speaker 3: people in that church who knew about it should be
Speaker 3: in jail too, for at least as long as they
Speaker 3: didn't listen to the victim in this. That would be
Speaker 3: about thirty five years and might be considered a little harsh.
Speaker 3: But for me, you let her suffer all those years
Speaker 3: and you didn't give her any solace whatsoever. You didn't
Speaker 3: pay for her therapy, none of that, And they should have.
Speaker 3: You know, it was their person who was in power
Speaker 3: and had power over these people, and power dynamics are
Speaker 3: the best way for pedophiles and abuse of people to
Speaker 3: be because they get to do that largely without impunity,
Speaker 3: with impunity and without the victims feeling like they can
Speaker 3: come forward and not be demonized for attacking the wonderful
Speaker 3: whatever it is. So that's my words on that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I have to always reiterate when you
Speaker 1: have behaviors like the crimes of you know, forced sexual act, abuse, violence,
Speaker 1: because all of those things, all of those acts really
Speaker 1: are acts of violence. It's not about attraction. It's always
Speaker 1: about power and to be able to control another individual
Speaker 1: or a group of individuals with that power and forcing
Speaker 1: them into silence, saying this is our secret, this is
Speaker 1: between me and you, and kind of like what color
Speaker 1: Purple said, you better not tell nobody, but god, it'll
Speaker 1: kill your mama. But the thing is, but the thing
Speaker 1: is is that the person that is, like, you know,
Speaker 1: experiencing the abuse is listening into them saying things like that,
Speaker 1: and they're not you know, they're not going to open
Speaker 1: their mouth because of course they are concerned about, you know,
Speaker 1: the person that's doing the abuse and what other things
Speaker 1: that they might do if they tell. And then to
Speaker 1: your point, Jonathan, yeah, to tell, right, and so their mom, right, exactly,
Speaker 1: their mom, their dad, you know, whomever you know happens
Speaker 1: to be a parental figure in their life. And and
Speaker 1: it's very it's and it's very disgusting in my eyes
Speaker 1: that you know, this is a culture, a pervasive culture
Speaker 1: that actually has happened and continues to happen in church
Speaker 1: no matter what denomination that it happens to be in.
Speaker 1: And instead of the people who are being victimized, they're
Speaker 1: not getting help because they because we as a society
Speaker 1: think that the church is able to police itself, and
Speaker 1: obviously that's not the case. So Cindy, I'm coming to
Speaker 1: you because you know, one of the things that you
Speaker 1: mentioned is how it struck you how people that were
Speaker 1: being interviewed in the article and pointed out how child
Speaker 1: abusers behaved since the abuse. Can you expand on your
Speaker 1: thoughts a bit of concerning.
Speaker 4: That, Yeah, yeah, I'm totally we with you guys regarding
Speaker 4: the idea that this halo effect that exists, the idea
Speaker 4: that because they are parishioners or whatever or leader of
Speaker 4: their churches, they are somehow better than the rest of us.
Speaker 4: They did nothing, and no religion did anything in the
Speaker 4: last fifteen hundred years to deserve this difference. And I
Speaker 4: think that's something we need to voice very strongly because
Speaker 4: this idea that they're better somehow, it still exists today,
Speaker 4: and after the thousands of cases and the hundreds of
Speaker 4: cases we've covered here on the nonprofits, this idea is
Speaker 4: still very much pregnant. So, yeah, this this reaction that
Speaker 4: we saw in the in the article from from all
Speaker 4: the people that were interviewed, it was yeah, but you know,
Speaker 4: he did a bad thing, but now he's he's he's
Speaker 4: a good person. You know, he's helping the church, he's
Speaker 4: guiding hers, blah blah blah. And that stems from the
Speaker 4: idea that we see a lot in Christianity actually that
Speaker 4: each wrong has to be some kind of balanced with
Speaker 4: a certain amount of good actions. We see that very
Speaker 4: very often in movies and TV shows, American ones. But
Speaker 4: that's not how it works. You need to pay for
Speaker 4: your crimes through the human justice system and not pretend
Speaker 4: that the supposedly good you did so far somehow unifies
Speaker 4: the the harm you cause, because, as you pointed out,
Speaker 4: the victim here, she never got any I don't like
Speaker 4: the word compensation because we think about money, but any
Speaker 4: recognition that she is a victim, and every everything that
Speaker 4: that it says that, yeah, he behaves since that it
Speaker 4: sounds like they're they they're just saying, yeah, he did
Speaker 4: a bad thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know.
Speaker 4: It's almost as if they are saying, yeah, the devil
Speaker 4: made him and him do it, but he's actually a
Speaker 4: good person, you know. So yeah, this this idea that
Speaker 4: this act is not deserving of well, it's not an
Speaker 4: act because it lasts four five years far member correctly.
Speaker 4: So this, this horrendous situation shouldn't exist, and it shouldn't be,
Speaker 4: you know, pushed over by some supposedly good actions that
Speaker 4: the perpetrator did, because what what also infuriates me is
Speaker 4: that when you look at the political climate in the
Speaker 4: US right now, one of the the rights may not
Speaker 4: is that the left is uh is full of rapists
Speaker 4: and all that kind of stuff. And what we see
Speaker 4: is that actually the rapists are on their side uh
Speaker 4: and and they are almighty and and uh and and
Speaker 4: and are pure and in reality, they're just the worst people,
Speaker 4: and they try to hide it, and they try to
Speaker 4: avoid any consequence. And that just kills me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, Yeah, I hear you.
Speaker 1: I hear you when you say that. And and I
Speaker 1: know that we kind of touched a bit about, you know,
Speaker 1: the the restoration healing versus actually holding these people who
Speaker 1: commit these act to justice and accountability and not necessarily
Speaker 1: seeing that after so many cases, as you pointed out, Cindy,
Speaker 1: that we've covered just on the nonprofits alone, about constantly
Speaker 1: hearing about church leaders who happen to engage in moral
Speaker 1: failings and have to step down. But they but the
Speaker 1: only thing that is there that they're actually receiving is
Speaker 1: just a you know, like a oh, you got caught,
Speaker 1: so you need to go ahead and get in the
Speaker 1: corner and go on time out. And and that's unfortunate
Speaker 1: and and I think that we should really talk more
Speaker 1: about what where where do we go from here? Because
Speaker 1: like we we are constantly talking about how there is
Speaker 1: no oversight, there is no checks and balances, there is
Speaker 1: even though you may have a governing body over these
Speaker 1: church leaders, they're still going to only be more inclined
Speaker 1: to protect the church and the church's name rather than
Speaker 1: actually protecting the constituents that have been abused or the
Speaker 1: parishioners that have been abused. So how can we critically
Speaker 1: assess because I do recognize that we may have a
Speaker 1: little bit of a bias here, guys, I don't know
Speaker 1: if you know is that, but you know, how can
Speaker 1: we critically assess the large in large the role of
Speaker 1: religious organizations in addressing or failing to address the allegations
Speaker 1: of abuse and misconduct amongst their leadership. Jonathan, I would
Speaker 1: like for you to start, and then a Scott and
Speaker 1: then and then Cindy's.
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, one thing that I just want to say
Speaker 3: is when I was in the Navy, we had a
Speaker 3: saying one off, shit wipes out a world of attaboys,
Speaker 3: So you know that was how they worked. I think
Speaker 3: that one way we can start getting ahead of this
Speaker 3: is to I think, get the churches to post who
Speaker 3: they can call if they're having problems like that, and
Speaker 3: let the law enforcement take the actions they need to take.
Speaker 3: And they should be looking at not just the offender,
Speaker 3: but the enablers as co conspirators in this crime. And
Speaker 3: you know, they are either post facto or or during
Speaker 3: the crime, they are enabling it and they're not reporting it,
Speaker 3: so there should be a penalty for them too. And
Speaker 3: if that wipes out your entire church leadership, maybe your
Speaker 3: church doesn't need to exist, you know. So you know that,
Speaker 3: and I'm totally totally aware of my biases in this situation.
Speaker 3: I have many of them, but and I won't go
Speaker 3: into them, but you know, so for that, I would
Speaker 3: just say, let's let the laws we have and maybe
Speaker 3: change a few to make sure that churches cannot hide
Speaker 3: this kind of behavior anymore.
Speaker 2: I guess it's Scott, Yeah, sure, Yeah, Cynthia, you mentioned
Speaker 2: a couple of words. They're justice and accountability. I think
Speaker 2: those are key, and Cindy and Jonathan we're both talking
Speaker 2: about legal issues as well. The thing is, I mean, yeah,
Speaker 2: we're biased. You know, that's probably one of the reasons
Speaker 2: we chose this story. But what we're asking, we're what
Speaker 2: we're saying is needed here, and I mean, if you
Speaker 2: listen to what we're saying, we're just asking for the
Speaker 2: same justice and accountability that everybody is expected to take
Speaker 2: a part in. And there was a quote in the
Speaker 2: article that just really really pissed me off. The quote
Speaker 2: goes in June, Gateway senior pastor Robert Morris resigned after
Speaker 2: admitting to having quote inappropriate sexual behavior with a young
Speaker 2: lady thirty five years ago. The young lady in question
Speaker 2: had been twelve, and Morris was twenty one and married. Okay,
Speaker 2: so let's get our terms straight here. We're not talking
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, technically inappropriate sexual behavior with a young
Speaker 2: lady is technically true, but that's not the whole truth. Okay,
Speaker 2: he raped a child. Okay, this is statutory rape, and
Speaker 2: that's what we're talking about here. And so the accountability
Speaker 2: that we're asking for is the same accountability that any
Speaker 2: organization would would be expected to be a party two
Speaker 2: and the same justice is going to be the same
Speaker 2: that we would expect of anybody, whether they be a minister,
Speaker 2: a teacher, or whatever. Okay, And that's all we're asking
Speaker 2: for if they commit a crime, they hurt a child,
Speaker 2: they deserve to, you know, to be judged by a
Speaker 2: jury of their peers, just like anybody else. And that's really,
Speaker 2: that's all we're asking for, is just come on, people,
Speaker 2: Let's just hold up the same the same standards that
Speaker 2: everybody has to live with. That's what we're saying.
Speaker 1: Come on, guys, come on exactly, Yeah, exactly, Cindy, what
Speaker 1: say you?
Speaker 4: Yeah. On top of everything we were talking about right now,
Speaker 4: I just like to point out that when you go
Speaker 4: through something like that, you cannot heal until you are
Speaker 4: really recognized as a victim. So it means that on
Speaker 4: top of what she went through, which is already horrible,
Speaker 4: she had to fight for like thirty years to be
Speaker 4: acknowledged as a victim, and so all these times she
Speaker 4: would not heal. And so on top of the harm
Speaker 4: that she went through during those five years, they added
Speaker 4: insult to injury during those thirty years. And I think
Speaker 4: we need to take that into account. Regarding the legal
Speaker 4: aspect of this, I think it starts with political will.
Speaker 4: I seem to remember that two or three years ago
Speaker 4: we did a show on their own profits about the
Speaker 4: situation like this in France because someone said that God's
Speaker 4: law was above men'slow some things like that. And the
Speaker 4: way you start fighting this is by removing the exemption
Speaker 4: for confession because in many countries and probably in many
Speaker 4: states in the US, confession has the same level of
Speaker 4: secrecy then you know, doctor patient secrecy or lawyer client
Speaker 4: and that shouldn't exist because it comes from the idea
Speaker 4: that the pastor or the father or whatever has some
Speaker 4: more authority, and they don't. They don't. So remove this
Speaker 4: authority by saying that if you are victim or if
Speaker 4: you know about something, you have zero legal protection if
Speaker 4: you don't say it. And starting with this would change slowly.
Speaker 4: Mentalities in these regards, they're compulsive.
Speaker 2: Cindy, I'm so glad you brought up the victims perspective there.
Speaker 2: I mean, that was something that it's easy to point
Speaker 2: fingers at the person doing the crime, but you know,
Speaker 2: we need to remember that, you know, there's victim there
Speaker 2: and they need to be addressed, and their needs need
Speaker 2: to be addressed, and they're they're long term, decades long
Speaker 2: pain has to be at the very least addressed so
Speaker 2: that they can Yeah, like you were saying you like,
Speaker 2: so that they can be in the healing process.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's always to recognize, recognize those things for the
Speaker 1: person who has been victimized to get the necessary healing
Speaker 1: and also recognition and to be honest with you guys,
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily mind compensation because but I understand it's
Speaker 1: not just about money. But you know, when you're thinking
Speaker 1: about lifetime of therapy, when you're thinking about you know,
Speaker 1: even the possibility of that person being interrupted in their
Speaker 1: development and not being able to do things like hold
Speaker 1: a job, purchase a home, even be able to have
Speaker 1: their own families because they are so traumatized by what
Speaker 1: has happened to them. I don't necessarily think that, you know,
Speaker 1: taking care of them in that particular aspect is not
Speaker 1: a bad idea, but it's.
Speaker 2: A small thing, but it's better than.
Speaker 1: Nothing exactly exactly. It is a start.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 1: Churches are supposed to be well. They're supposed to be
Speaker 1: places that are serving as a moral guide, but too
Speaker 1: often lack the necessary oversight to prevent abuses of power.
Speaker 1: Expressing regret after the fact isn't enough. There needs to
Speaker 1: be immediate and transparent consequences to protect the vulnerable to
Speaker 1: possibly restore trust. The failure to address these issues promptly
Speaker 1: and effectively damages not only the congregation but the wider
Speaker 1: faith community. It's pastime for churches to implement real checks
Speaker 1: and balances and invite independent oversight to ensure leaders are
Speaker 1: held to the highest standards they supposedly preach. Unfortunately, integrity
Speaker 1: of the faith has faltered and goals post moved to
Speaker 1: focus on drag Time, Story Hour instead of their own
Speaker 1: moral failings of abuse and scandal being on display.