WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.040 --> 00:00:11.279 The music. It is necessary for the recording of sound 2 00:00:12.679 --> 00:00:16.679 to convert the sound waves to corresponding changes in light. 3 00:00:16.920 --> 00:00:20.719 The sound waves produced by my voice are transmitted through 4 00:00:20.719 --> 00:00:24.199 the air to the microphone, where these sound waves are 5 00:00:24.239 --> 00:00:28.039 converted to changes in an electric current. These variations in 6 00:00:28.079 --> 00:00:31.320 the electric current are then amplified and used to control 7 00:00:31.399 --> 00:00:36.280 the light. This varying beam of light falling on the 8 00:00:36.320 --> 00:00:41.159 photoelectric cells produces variations in the electric current which are 9 00:00:41.200 --> 00:00:47.039 directly proportional to the variations in the light. Themes the crack. 10 00:00:49.200 --> 00:00:52.920 As the varying electrical current in the photoelectric cell is small, 11 00:00:54.039 --> 00:00:57.320 a ventuum tube amplifier is required to increase it to 12 00:00:57.359 --> 00:00:58.240 the point where. 13 00:00:58.039 --> 00:01:00.119 It will operate a loud speakers. 14 00:01:01.320 --> 00:01:01.880 Contrack. 15 00:01:17.359 --> 00:01:22.000 Welcome to the Occult Rejects. This episode, we will be 16 00:01:22.120 --> 00:01:26.959 covering something that's actually very interesting to me because of 17 00:01:27.079 --> 00:01:31.319 how it basically does lead back to things that me 18 00:01:31.359 --> 00:01:33.719 and Luck's Actually we're bringing up a lot in our 19 00:01:33.760 --> 00:01:36.519 first year of the Occult Rejects. You might see some 20 00:01:36.599 --> 00:01:40.120 interesting names being brought back up again. But as you 21 00:01:40.120 --> 00:01:43.400 can tell on the title, we are covering Robert Maxwell's 22 00:01:43.519 --> 00:01:47.920 medical monopoly and tell you the truth. This was actually 23 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:51.040 a really kind of like eye opening topic for me 24 00:01:52.040 --> 00:01:54.519 in many ways because this actually wasn't my idea. This 25 00:01:54.680 --> 00:01:57.599 was actually Lisa's idea. It was something that she thought 26 00:01:57.719 --> 00:01:59.959 was actually really important and kicked the topic to him, 27 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:02.120 and I was looking at it, I was like, oh, 28 00:02:02.159 --> 00:02:04.280 I didn't know all this, And then when I even 29 00:02:04.319 --> 00:02:07.159 started looking into these other things, I was like, this 30 00:02:07.239 --> 00:02:10.639 guy like like basically between him and nazis like they 31 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:15.319 sculptured the medical world that we're in today. Right, This 32 00:02:15.360 --> 00:02:18.560 is actually wild to me, you know. Plus again, you know, 33 00:02:18.639 --> 00:02:21.520 seeing the usual suspects that we used to see back 34 00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:25.240 in the day, CT Corp, you know, Corporation Company and 35 00:02:25.400 --> 00:02:28.280 USA Corpse start popping up again under their registered agents, 36 00:02:28.919 --> 00:02:32.120 it starts to seem very interesting. And for people who 37 00:02:32.120 --> 00:02:35.639 don't know what those companies or those registered agents are, 38 00:02:36.439 --> 00:02:39.080 I just just watched the series and we'll get to it, 39 00:02:40.840 --> 00:02:43.000 but I will definitely show how I've come across them 40 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:46.680 before in the past as well. So but I guess 41 00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:50.039 since you know this is Lisa's topic, you can go 42 00:02:50.080 --> 00:02:52.680 ahead and like, you know, maybe started off. I'll let 43 00:02:52.680 --> 00:02:55.000 everybody know, like, what's your plan here? Yeah? 44 00:02:55.039 --> 00:02:56.639 Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, you know. 45 00:02:56.560 --> 00:02:58.560 Why you even picked it. Why what did you even well, 46 00:02:58.599 --> 00:02:59.280 And I'll. 47 00:02:59.159 --> 00:03:03.039 Give you a little bit of back story. So basically, 48 00:03:03.199 --> 00:03:06.560 one night I was scrolling through Twitter and I came 49 00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:09.479 across this article and I started reading it. And it's 50 00:03:09.520 --> 00:03:12.840 a twenty seventeen article published by the Guardian and it 51 00:03:12.919 --> 00:03:16.400 had to do with scientific publishing. So I went ahead 52 00:03:16.400 --> 00:03:20.439 and started reading it, and I was completely floored. I 53 00:03:20.479 --> 00:03:22.159 think I've mentioned to you that I've spent some time 54 00:03:22.199 --> 00:03:25.680 in science and academia, but I had never even heard 55 00:03:25.719 --> 00:03:29.560 of this connection. So, you know, you have the dissenting 56 00:03:29.639 --> 00:03:31.759 voices on one side of the scientist saying, oh, the 57 00:03:31.800 --> 00:03:36.199 scientific publishing industry is just you know, exploitative, and then 58 00:03:36.479 --> 00:03:40.000 you hear about Robert Maxwell. You know, he's a horrible person. 59 00:03:40.240 --> 00:03:44.319 But I had never heard the two in the same sentence. So, like, 60 00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:46.560 I want to kind of set at the stage kind 61 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:49.439 of giving a little bit of information on scientific publishing industry, 62 00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:52.560 not too long, but just very briefly. But I think 63 00:03:52.599 --> 00:03:55.280 that it's very important to kind of set that stage 64 00:03:55.639 --> 00:03:59.520 because this topic, I think is very important and quite frankly, 65 00:03:59.560 --> 00:04:02.599 it's like not discussed at all. I've never heard of it. 66 00:04:02.680 --> 00:04:05.159 I never even heard of a connection between the two, 67 00:04:05.639 --> 00:04:10.080 and I had no idea how influential Robert Maxwell was 68 00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:14.919 on the current model of scientific journal or publishing journals 69 00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:19.079 and how they operate and the business model that they use. 70 00:04:19.639 --> 00:04:22.040 So hopefully you'll see why I think it's a big deal. 71 00:04:23.079 --> 00:04:26.439 So just a little bit of background to kind of 72 00:04:26.439 --> 00:04:31.759 set the stage. Like I mentioned, there is in so 73 00:04:31.879 --> 00:04:34.680 in academia and scientific publishing. Publishing is going to be 74 00:04:34.680 --> 00:04:38.199 the lifeline of every scientist. There is a common saying 75 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:41.360 that's called publisher perish, and it's a phrase that's urd 76 00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:45.279 often and you hear it being used often, and it's 77 00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:48.839 used to describe the enormous amount of pressure that is 78 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:52.879 placed on scientists to publish and publish often. So their career, 79 00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:59.000 their funding, their promotion, overall professional success depends on if 80 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:02.480 they publish and the free quency of publishing. So this 81 00:05:02.600 --> 00:05:05.399 is kind of the only way that scientists can stand 82 00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:11.120 out amongst others and basically demonstrate like their talent or 83 00:05:11.279 --> 00:05:13.680 you know, how well they set up an experiment and 84 00:05:13.759 --> 00:05:17.399 can put data out there. So it it if they 85 00:05:17.439 --> 00:05:20.399 can publish often, it reinforces like a positive feedback. 86 00:05:20.600 --> 00:05:22.279 No, I was going to say that too. I was 87 00:05:22.360 --> 00:05:24.959 going to say, just from some things that I've watched recently, 88 00:05:25.639 --> 00:05:27.160 I feel like, you know, you also have like a 89 00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:29.360 lot of other people who will like mention like because 90 00:05:29.360 --> 00:05:32.480 of this person's work, you know, like it just does 91 00:05:32.519 --> 00:05:35.120 seem like it kind of like I sometimes wonder like, 92 00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:37.279 are they pumping all this out because they're like, oh, 93 00:05:37.360 --> 00:05:39.839 I just have something I want to share anyway with 94 00:05:39.920 --> 00:05:42.800 a scientists or other right, other people, Right, even if 95 00:05:42.839 --> 00:05:44.680 it's just like a small little thing that they're putting 96 00:05:44.680 --> 00:05:47.920 out two weeks later or a month or two later. Yeah, 97 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:50.040 sometimes I do think it's just to like kind of 98 00:05:50.079 --> 00:05:52.160 like again, I guess what I was getting at is 99 00:05:52.199 --> 00:05:54.839 that like a lot of times recently, I'll hear people 100 00:05:54.879 --> 00:05:57.199 that have in some important stuff I think to say 101 00:05:57.199 --> 00:06:00.240 that are referencing back to other works from even other 102 00:06:00.279 --> 00:06:03.160 people that they're expanding on or that I'm taking that 103 00:06:03.279 --> 00:06:05.160 theory in that model and I'm running with this and 104 00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:06.040 that's how I'm getting this. 105 00:06:06.680 --> 00:06:08.480 Well, it's a way to communicate with each other. Yeah, 106 00:06:08.759 --> 00:06:11.439 And it's and it's also you're showing, oh, I'm interested 107 00:06:11.439 --> 00:06:13.879 in your work and you influenced me, or hey, I 108 00:06:13.920 --> 00:06:16.680 did this experiment you were completely wrong and it's it's 109 00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:19.079 a way to kind of bridge the gap or communicate 110 00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:22.720 across lines. But then also in terms like what you said, 111 00:06:22.759 --> 00:06:25.600 there's there's all the other angle that you know, you 112 00:06:25.639 --> 00:06:30.000 want to put something out because of the pressure to publish. 113 00:06:29.519 --> 00:06:31.519 So especially if you're being paid to perform. 114 00:06:31.879 --> 00:06:35.759 Oh absolutely, And so the the whole thing about publishing 115 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:39.399 you look good, but your institution also looks good, and 116 00:06:39.439 --> 00:06:42.480 it kind of brings notoriety to the institution itself. And 117 00:06:42.519 --> 00:06:44.920 the way that you're rewarded is that you get more 118 00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:49.560 money to basically continue the project that you're publishing in. 119 00:06:50.199 --> 00:06:53.439 And so sadly, if you're not really interested in your topic, 120 00:06:53.560 --> 00:06:56.959 but that's what's getting published, you're kind of married to 121 00:06:57.519 --> 00:07:02.240 putting out data kind of like content creators to publish 122 00:07:02.360 --> 00:07:04.920 because it's not going to get published any other way, 123 00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:07.560 and you want to keep your job. So like if 124 00:07:07.560 --> 00:07:10.680 you have professors, for instance, that love teaching or mentoring, 125 00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:16.240 that doesn't give you any publications. So if you publish 126 00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:18.920 less because you devote more time to teaching, you're going 127 00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:22.040 to kind of find yourself out of a situation where 128 00:07:22.079 --> 00:07:25.720 you're no longer teaching and mentoring. So publishing is like 129 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:31.480 your lifeline. But because of this whole publish or perish, 130 00:07:31.959 --> 00:07:35.959 this whole model behind it all has shown that the publishing, 131 00:07:36.439 --> 00:07:40.279 the model for publishing within the scientific industry has not 132 00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:43.439 so very good consequence or it has consequences rather for 133 00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:47.680 the industry itself. For the scientific publishing industry itself, it's amazing, 134 00:07:47.879 --> 00:07:50.720 it's great, because the more pressure you put on scientists 135 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:53.480 to put out stuff, the more papers are going to push, 136 00:07:53.759 --> 00:07:56.160 and the more journals they're going to have to create. 137 00:07:56.680 --> 00:08:00.040 So it's just like a money making churning out and 138 00:08:00.040 --> 00:08:03.120 and they're just basically, you know, making money off of 139 00:08:03.160 --> 00:08:05.279 these journals. And I'll tell you why in a second. 140 00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:09.839 But for science itself and by default the scientists, it's 141 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:11.879 led to and I think you were kind of getting 142 00:08:11.879 --> 00:08:14.959 on this tangent, is that it's led to potentially wasteful 143 00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:18.160 research research it's not even going to benefit society, but 144 00:08:18.319 --> 00:08:21.519 it's fresh, it's new, and it's being published, so that 145 00:08:21.600 --> 00:08:25.800 everybody starts to gravitate towards that. There's also like a 146 00:08:25.839 --> 00:08:30.120 bias that is created towards just doing the research that's publishable. 147 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:32.960 So the research may be done, but it has no 148 00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:35.799 real application into society. Itself. 149 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:39.279 That's funny. I was watching you know that debate that 150 00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:42.039 I had sent you. I think one of the guys 151 00:08:42.120 --> 00:08:43.679 up on the stage I think was into it, and 152 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:45.600 like the bold guy was like, I think the dude's 153 00:08:45.639 --> 00:08:49.799 batshit crazy. Yeah said that about this person, But I 154 00:08:49.799 --> 00:08:52.720 think they were saying that there was some interesting things 155 00:08:52.799 --> 00:08:55.159 about it. But the whole thing is is it's actually 156 00:08:55.200 --> 00:08:58.600 not applicable to anything. So like he was like saying, 157 00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:03.720 it's almost like a waste of time. Yeah, well, like 158 00:09:03.799 --> 00:09:06.799 it doesn't really help anything because we would have to 159 00:09:06.879 --> 00:09:09.759 change everything to this, And he's like, I don't see 160 00:09:09.799 --> 00:09:12.080 this having enough merit to even think about doing that. 161 00:09:12.120 --> 00:09:14.759 He said, Not that I'm against changing the whole way 162 00:09:14.799 --> 00:09:16.840 we look at science, he says, it says we better 163 00:09:16.919 --> 00:09:18.919 have some damn good reasons. Why. 164 00:09:19.759 --> 00:09:23.480 Yes, no, absolutely, And not only that, but I think, 165 00:09:23.519 --> 00:09:26.679 and on to that point, is that there are certain 166 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:28.559 things that are only going to get published. And I 167 00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:30.519 keep saying that, but say, for instance, you run an 168 00:09:30.519 --> 00:09:33.960 experiment and you find that none of the variables are correlated, 169 00:09:34.440 --> 00:09:37.720 or your data shows no significant data. That is still 170 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:41.120 important because if you don't publish that, then you're going 171 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:44.559 to have laboratories around the world doing the same experiment 172 00:09:44.759 --> 00:09:47.559 coming to the same dead end, and that's waste of money, 173 00:09:47.679 --> 00:09:50.519 that's waste of time, and that's waste of so many things. 174 00:09:50.519 --> 00:09:52.320 When you could have just published it and said no, 175 00:09:52.360 --> 00:09:54.879 I didn't see any correlation and people can move on. 176 00:09:55.440 --> 00:09:59.600 If anything, it eliminates, Hey, this didn't work. But journals 177 00:09:59.639 --> 00:10:04.039 don't publish no data. That's I think that's the whole 178 00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:08.759 point in that whole end. But the other thing is like, 179 00:10:08.879 --> 00:10:12.440 say that you have an experiment, you turned out data, 180 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:16.000 and here it is. It's published. Because everybody is trying 181 00:10:16.039 --> 00:10:20.279 to publish something fresh and new and get published. The 182 00:10:20.440 --> 00:10:24.639 likelihood of somebody repeating the experiment to see if someone 183 00:10:24.639 --> 00:10:28.559 in Arizona got the data. Whatever. Now someone in Switzerland's 184 00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:29.960 going to repeat it and see if they get the 185 00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:32.960 same data. The reason that that's important is because you 186 00:10:33.159 --> 00:10:35.200 set up a hypothesis and you say this is what 187 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:37.919 I think happened. Somebody else has to be able to 188 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:41.879 reproduce that scenario in order for that hypothesis to now 189 00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:47.120 evolve into a theory. If no one replicates that hypothesis, 190 00:10:47.200 --> 00:10:50.279 it stays like that. It never gets it never moves on. 191 00:10:50.360 --> 00:10:53.480 In the progression of theory to law to whatever. But 192 00:10:53.559 --> 00:10:58.000 because everybody's trying to publish, nobody's wasting time repeating experiments 193 00:10:58.039 --> 00:11:01.279 because if it's a repeat of experiment, themselves will probably 194 00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:04.360 not publish it. So now you're starting to see how 195 00:11:04.360 --> 00:11:08.200 it's all starting to bias itself, and that scientists are 196 00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:13.320 basically motivated to only publish as a survival mechanism to 197 00:11:13.399 --> 00:11:17.120 keep their job. So you have so you have all 198 00:11:17.240 --> 00:11:19.759 of that right, and you have scientists that are saying, hey, 199 00:11:19.799 --> 00:11:22.879 this model doesn't work. This model is actually detrimental to science. 200 00:11:23.279 --> 00:11:26.559 The whole publish in Parish is threatening the quality of science. 201 00:11:27.320 --> 00:11:30.519 That you know, you have smaller universities that aren't as 202 00:11:30.919 --> 00:11:36.519 like affluent with their laboratory techniques or technology or equipment 203 00:11:36.600 --> 00:11:39.519 or whatever, and they cannot compete with like say Harvard, 204 00:11:39.799 --> 00:11:43.559 where they're getting all the journal publications, whereas these smaller 205 00:11:43.559 --> 00:11:45.519 ones are not because they don't have the equipment and 206 00:11:45.559 --> 00:11:48.480 they you know, you have that bias in or whatever. 207 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:51.799 And then also the politics, so everything is kind of 208 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:54.679 like in this mismatch area and it's all kind of 209 00:11:55.039 --> 00:11:58.840 in this bias sense. And if you don't tap into 210 00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:02.200 what they call a magical formula on how to get published. 211 00:12:02.600 --> 00:12:05.399 You're kind of out out of a situation for publishing, 212 00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:09.480 and this was all kind of geared during this whole 213 00:12:09.559 --> 00:12:13.960 publisher parish motto or whatever, and so for all even okay, 214 00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:16.679 so even all of that, all of the dissenting voices 215 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:19.279 saying all this and saying it's biased, saying that science 216 00:12:19.320 --> 00:12:22.919 isn't growing, No one that I have seen or at 217 00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:28.440 least genuinely address who was responsible for the paradigm shift 218 00:12:29.039 --> 00:12:32.480 in scientific publication and the model they use it today. 219 00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:35.559 So they'll say, oh, well it started here or so 220 00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:38.159 and so was the one that kind of influenced it 221 00:12:38.200 --> 00:12:40.519 all or whatever, but they don't really go into in 222 00:12:40.639 --> 00:12:43.720 depth as to who it was, why it was, and 223 00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:46.639 how come it's like that now, or even his his 224 00:12:46.759 --> 00:12:49.879 basic you know, affiliations with what's going on in the 225 00:12:49.919 --> 00:12:54.639 news right now. So just quickly, in science, it started 226 00:12:54.639 --> 00:12:57.840 off with oral history. They basically would get together, discuss, 227 00:12:58.159 --> 00:13:01.320 do a discourse, and share ideas, share their experiments, and 228 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:05.879 that was it. You had other places that were handwriting 229 00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:10.879 their manuscripts, their findings, their discoveries, their experiment designs, and 230 00:13:10.919 --> 00:13:15.240 that was another section. If you're handwriting your manuscript. I 231 00:13:15.320 --> 00:13:17.600 doubt you're going to turn out one hundred of them 232 00:13:17.879 --> 00:13:20.840 to disseminate to all these people, So that was also limited. 233 00:13:21.399 --> 00:13:24.600 But with the or what they call the post print paradigm, 234 00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:29.519 what really kicked it off was actually the printing press 235 00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:33.399 in the late nineteenth century to where you could actually 236 00:13:33.559 --> 00:13:37.240 get you know, information onto whatever and then disseminate. So 237 00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:40.240 that's kind of the progression of like oral history in 238 00:13:40.399 --> 00:13:48.600 through going into the journal sense or journal publications. So 239 00:13:49.279 --> 00:13:51.799 what really I think kind of kicked it off what 240 00:13:51.919 --> 00:13:53.519 was going on in Europe, and we'll discuss it here 241 00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:56.240 in a bit, also was kind of happening in the US. 242 00:13:56.279 --> 00:13:58.440 And I think it's important to identify what was happening 243 00:13:58.440 --> 00:14:00.399 in the US because it kind of served as an 244 00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:03.799 influence on why everybody started to invest in what was 245 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:05.559 going on in Europe and what we're going to discuss 246 00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:09.320 here in a bit. But so during World War two, 247 00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:15.600 they needed scientists to basically invent things and to assist 248 00:14:16.519 --> 00:14:20.440 the war and help the Allied win the war. So 249 00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:24.399 what ended up happening is that scientific research in academia 250 00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:28.279 started to be based upon two principles of self governance. 251 00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:30.879 You needed autonomy in that scientist needed to be free 252 00:14:30.919 --> 00:14:33.840 to pursue whatever topic they wanted to do. You can't force, 253 00:14:34.039 --> 00:14:36.840 ultimately force someone to do it, otherwise you've compromised the 254 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:39.519 entire experiment or the science. And then you also had 255 00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:43.399 to have internal accountability. Not only are you yourself doing 256 00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:45.639 the science, but you had to have somebody qualified that 257 00:14:45.720 --> 00:14:48.159 could look at what you're doing and say, yes, it's good, 258 00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:51.919 no it's not. And that they felt that the government 259 00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:56.039 should fund the science because that data was going to 260 00:14:56.080 --> 00:14:59.519 be used for the public as a whole, and they 261 00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:02.120 didn't want want the private sector to fund it because 262 00:15:02.159 --> 00:15:04.200 you can't expect the private sector to fund all kinds 263 00:15:04.200 --> 00:15:06.879 of research, and also it would bias it, which we 264 00:15:06.919 --> 00:15:11.600 see now in terms of you know bias research. So 265 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:17.120 during World War Two you had this. You had Van 266 00:15:17.279 --> 00:15:22.440 vere Bush from MIT that basically was in charge of 267 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:25.399 the US Office of Scientific Research and Development, and he 268 00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:28.159 goes on later to be the director of the Manhattan Project. 269 00:15:28.639 --> 00:15:33.080 But he's famous for kind of setting the groundwork and 270 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:36.840 telling the governments, hey, you need to fund scientists so 271 00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:39.440 that they can turn out, you know, data, and that 272 00:15:40.039 --> 00:15:42.399 in order to do this, the continuous flow and substantial 273 00:15:42.440 --> 00:15:46.039 flow of scientific knowledge will will be there for our country, 274 00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:49.519 and they have to be able to choose whatever they 275 00:15:49.559 --> 00:15:52.360 want to do, Otherwise you compromise the science and that 276 00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:55.320 all that data would benefit society. Hence why the government 277 00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:57.960 themselves would fund the research. And when I say the government, 278 00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:03.320 I mean federal or state. Right, So you had scientists 279 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:06.480 that we're doing this stuff, but you still needed to 280 00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:10.759 judge how their work was benefiting society and if it 281 00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:13.279 was of quality work, And the only way to do 282 00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:16.879 this what they felt at the time, was through scientific publication. 283 00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:19.960 So that's how we start to see how publications come 284 00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:24.399 circle back into how it plays into experiments and the 285 00:16:24.440 --> 00:16:29.840 lifeline of scientists in general. And so the way that 286 00:16:29.879 --> 00:16:33.440 they could, I guess, judge each other is that if 287 00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:38.360 other scientists were peer reviewing the publication, Right, you write 288 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:40.360 it up, you give it to another scientist, Yes it 289 00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:44.559 sounds good, it sound or whatever. But what happened with 290 00:16:44.679 --> 00:16:47.399 this whole thing is that by default, for all intents 291 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:52.480 and purposes, how and the whole process of publication and 292 00:16:52.519 --> 00:16:57.840 the publication industry is now going to become the significant 293 00:16:57.879 --> 00:17:03.519 but invisible influence over science and science policy. So the 294 00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:07.599 publication companies are now in a position to where they 295 00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:09.599 can say, no, we're not going to publish your work, 296 00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:12.079 or yes we are if you play politics, or if 297 00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:15.279 you don't play politics, if if this is hot right now, 298 00:17:15.319 --> 00:17:18.400 this virus is hot right now in this year, we 299 00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:22.319 only publish this, you know. And they are in that position. 300 00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:25.440 And a majority of those publication companies are not even 301 00:17:25.480 --> 00:17:29.119 scientists themselves. They're businessmen and so they want to see 302 00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:33.000 you know, they want they want to have that profit margin. 303 00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:38.000 So one of the things that ended up, I guess, 304 00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:42.359 coming out of this, is that the publication industry would 305 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:46.799 and as we see now does own science. They dictate 306 00:17:46.839 --> 00:17:50.160 it all, they shape all of it. They shape the 307 00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:54.119 publisher parish motto for sure. And what that's contributed to 308 00:17:54.519 --> 00:17:59.119 is an oligopoly of the publication industry. So you're seeing 309 00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:02.559 now how you have these scientists, but they're all kind 310 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:05.599 of being funneled into this way of thinking, way of 311 00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:08.920 thought in order to keep their job. And it's through 312 00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:13.839 by design, through a business model. So the business model 313 00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:20.319 really quickly is that imagine that you receive raw materials 314 00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:27.839 from your customer for free. The customers themselves carry out 315 00:18:27.880 --> 00:18:34.079 the quality control of the materials for free, and then 316 00:18:34.119 --> 00:18:38.480 the customers buy back the final product and an extremely 317 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:42.680 elevated price that just keeps rising and there is no cap. 318 00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:47.279 That is essentially the scientific publishing industry in a nutshell. 319 00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:51.000 So you're not paying your scientists, your writers, and you're 320 00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:55.279 definitely not paying your editors, and then you're selling it 321 00:18:55.359 --> 00:18:59.480 mainly to libraries at a price that keeps increasing every year, 322 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:01.599 and there's no cap because the libraries aren't going to 323 00:19:01.640 --> 00:19:04.119 tell you no, because they're scientists need the journals in 324 00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:08.799 order to continue conducting research. So it's a for profit 325 00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:15.240 oligopoly that functions within a government funded, largely regulated organization. 326 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:20.720 So it it kind of it's one of those things 327 00:19:20.759 --> 00:19:25.839 to where you kind of just how do I say this. 328 00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:27.799 It is? 329 00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:30.319 I think it is, and you hear about this, you know, 330 00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:33.759 in academia, in school or whatever, how it's it's predatory, 331 00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:38.319 how it's exploitative, but no one really says or does anything. 332 00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:40.160 I think they're trying to go the whole Well, it 333 00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:43.039 should be open access, and there's a lot of push 334 00:19:43.079 --> 00:19:45.240 for that, and of course there's a lot of pushback 335 00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:47.880 for that, but no one's getting really paid so to speak. 336 00:19:47.920 --> 00:19:50.680 The only payment that comes to the scientist is getting 337 00:19:50.680 --> 00:19:53.079 the job at the university, which is a set pay. 338 00:19:53.319 --> 00:19:56.039 It's not you know, the more articles you push out, 339 00:19:56.240 --> 00:19:57.680 you know, the more commission. 340 00:19:57.200 --> 00:20:00.599 You get that you know what, you know what this 341 00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:03.559 actually very much reminds me of And I'm just going 342 00:20:03.599 --> 00:20:05.920 off of something that you even said before real quick. 343 00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:08.599 And you know, I hate to sound like an ass, 344 00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:10.279 but it really does sound like the same thing, and 345 00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:12.759 I've made jokes about it. It's pretty much the same 346 00:20:12.759 --> 00:20:15.079 thing as a person who considers I'm a content creator 347 00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:19.359 but only has guests on and receives money. M hm, 348 00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:21.039 because you're not paying your guests. 349 00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:26.519 Who did the research. Guess your guests who did the research. 350 00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:30.839 They didn't get paid tod they No, that's very fucking weird. 351 00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:34.319 So it's a it's like an oligopoly. It's where all 352 00:20:34.359 --> 00:20:37.559 of this side is free, but you're making money off 353 00:20:37.599 --> 00:20:42.000 of nothing. Really, I mean, I turned. 354 00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:46.119 On the mixer and flapped my mouth and I should 355 00:20:46.160 --> 00:20:50.839 stay home now. No, it was just that. It just 356 00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:53.039 but you know, to get off the joke, like and everything. 357 00:20:53.079 --> 00:20:56.400 That really is like a really screwed up situation. 358 00:20:57.400 --> 00:20:59.240 No, it is. And and so when you say science 359 00:20:59.240 --> 00:21:03.720 is being pimped out. Yeah, but this, this is one 360 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:10.400 one avenue how you can completely prove how biased science is. Not, 361 00:21:11.240 --> 00:21:14.759 in my giving the benefit of the doubt, not so 362 00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:18.440 much that the scientist it's himself, him or herself is 363 00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:21.839 biasing it on purpose, but is biasing it so that 364 00:21:21.880 --> 00:21:25.559 they can keep their job, or they can continue funding, 365 00:21:25.720 --> 00:21:28.200 or they can continue doing research or what have you. 366 00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:32.640 So it essentially it it's it's a bias, and you 367 00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:35.400 can prove it because of this business model. But you're 368 00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:39.000 basically they're basically providing a free labor force for a 369 00:21:39.079 --> 00:21:42.440 job that requires them and only them to check do 370 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:45.319 the quality check, and none of none of them get 371 00:21:45.319 --> 00:21:49.200 paid for it, which is Yeah, I thought that was 372 00:21:49.640 --> 00:21:54.160 that was pretty So with all that, I kind of 373 00:21:54.200 --> 00:21:57.559 wanted to throw some numbers at y'all in terms of 374 00:21:57.599 --> 00:22:04.920 profit margins. Oh so, corporate publishers exists as only a 375 00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:08.279 large handful. So there's only like maybe two or like 376 00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:13.200 three to five top dogs in all of the scientific industry. 377 00:22:13.240 --> 00:22:15.000 They own almost all the journals. 378 00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:17.839 Oh, I think I even came across something that called 379 00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:21.079 it like the Big three or the Big something. Yeah, 380 00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:24.880 it even like clumped like a group of publishing companies 381 00:22:24.920 --> 00:22:27.400 as being like the big something Yeah. 382 00:22:27.400 --> 00:22:30.160 Right, no, no, no, exactly, And we're going to talk 383 00:22:30.200 --> 00:22:32.519 about I think one of them later on, especially in 384 00:22:33.799 --> 00:22:38.200 the uh who owns what and who contributes what? But 385 00:22:38.799 --> 00:22:41.519 so most of the coveted journals, So that was another thing. 386 00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:44.559 Journals are not all the same. They all have levels 387 00:22:44.599 --> 00:22:47.160 and they're called impact factors. And so if you get 388 00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:50.039 your if you get your paper put into a journal 389 00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:52.880 that has the highest impact factor, pretty much can like 390 00:22:53.400 --> 00:22:57.079 you know, dictate where you're going to go because it 391 00:22:57.400 --> 00:23:00.200 made it to that top tier. So they themselves have 392 00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:04.359 also initiated like a like a hierarchy as well that 393 00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:07.480 you were trying to constantly chase and. 394 00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:09.640 They sounds like podcasting again. 395 00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:16.640 It's true. So you've run it up first. So just 396 00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:18.880 this one company, Elsie you. 397 00:23:18.920 --> 00:23:22.440 Gotta get that one guest, I gotta get so and 398 00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:23.680 so to retweet me and have. 399 00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:30.519 Me on exactly exactly exactly, but so say you have 400 00:23:30.799 --> 00:23:32.960 so say, we're going to talk about one of the 401 00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:35.759