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Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking
Speaker 4: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about them, Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK every week,
Speaker 4: another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous
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Speaker 5: Good Evening.
Speaker 8: Due to Sullivan's extensive writing about Ted Bundy, which has
Speaker 8: produced six books, He's become a sort of magnet over
Speaker 8: the years, drying out many people who are part of
Speaker 8: the bundy story, but otherwise kept a low profile over
Speaker 8: the decades, and these first person contacts continue to this day.
Speaker 8: As such, this is the first book in a new
Speaker 8: series of books whose aim is to bring new revelations
Speaker 8: to the public about Bundy, the victims, the murders, and
Speaker 8: the almost murders that failed Bundy for one reason or another.
Speaker 8: This first offering, Ted Bundy the Yearly Journal, Volume one
Speaker 8: contains a great deal of never before published information from
Speaker 8: a number of women who barely escaped his grasp. It
Speaker 8: also reveals Bundy's geographic hunting pattern after his arrival in
Speaker 8: Salt Lake City, Utah, in September nineteenth four, a surprising
Speaker 8: discovery the author never expected to make, but did, and
Speaker 8: it all came about through the valid testimonies of the
Speaker 8: women who encountered him during this period. The book also
Speaker 8: delves into what the author believes is perhaps an accurate,
Speaker 8: albeit conservative estimate of how many women or young girls
Speaker 8: Bundy approached but failed to abduct during his years of murder.
Speaker 8: Each new volume will focus on particular aspects of the
Speaker 8: case where further investigation is warranted there are still unknowns
Speaker 8: out there, and as the author has experienced, where unknowns exist,
Speaker 8: the possibility of discovery awaits. The book that we're featuring
Speaker 8: this evening is Ted Bundy The Yearly Journal, with my
Speaker 8: special guest journalist and author, Kevin M. Sullivan. Welcome back
Speaker 8: to the program and thank you very much for this interview.
Speaker 5: Kevin M. Sullivan. Well, thank you, Dan. We always have
Speaker 5: a good time when we are together on your show,
Speaker 5: and the same will be today with this seventh book
Speaker 5: or the first book in a new series on Teddy.
Speaker 5: Lots of new info.
Speaker 8: There, absolutely, this is highly anticipated. As usual, everyone can't
Speaker 8: get enough of information about Ted Bundy because there's so
Speaker 8: much more, as you say, so much more to uncover,
Speaker 8: as you are a testament with this, as you say,
Speaker 8: seventh book about Bundy. Now, let's talk about right away.
Speaker 8: In the very beginning, you talk about that you were
Speaker 8: fortunate enough with your very first book. Let's talk about
Speaker 8: how this seventh book came about. By talking about the
Speaker 8: first book, the Bundy Murders, the comprehensive history, and you
Speaker 8: say that you were happy or you were fortunate enough
Speaker 8: to work with many of the people involved in the case,
Speaker 8: including the top investigators. Jerry Thompson from Salt Lake City
Speaker 8: Utah Michael J. Fisher, the Colorado investigator Russ Renault and
Speaker 8: Randy Everett, Idaho investigators, Robert D. Keppel, the Washington State
Speaker 8: investigators and I reveal Bountiful, Utah detective who worked to
Speaker 8: Carol deranch case and Don Patchen, the first detective for
Speaker 8: the Tellassee Police Department in the Florida Kyomega murders. And
Speaker 8: Bill Hagmeyer, the retired FB agent from the BSU unit
Speaker 8: who became very close to Bundy during the last years
Speaker 8: and spent as many as two hundred hours interviewing Bundy
Speaker 8: before his execution. It would be from these sources and
Speaker 8: in depth interviews that followed that new and never before
Speaker 8: published information surface about several of the murders, along with
Speaker 8: new general information about the case. From that decision, Sprang
Speaker 8: five additional companion volumes tell us about the five companion
Speaker 8: volumes following the Bundy murders and wende Evers.
Speaker 5: Yeah, sure, Well, you know, I considered my work on
Speaker 5: Bundy would be one and done with the Bundy murders
Speaker 5: a comprehensive history. I just I mean, that's the full biography.
Speaker 5: That was the full treatment of the murders. It was
Speaker 5: a long book to write. It was two and a
Speaker 5: half years, dealing with a lot of sources from a
Speaker 5: lot of different states, and thank god, I was able
Speaker 5: to come up with a lot of new and that
Speaker 5: had never been published before in any of the other books.
Speaker 5: And several factors of that information was new informations about
Speaker 5: the murders that were verifiable and told me about the detectives.
Speaker 5: So I was, you know, it was a great It
Speaker 5: turned out to be a great decision for me to
Speaker 5: delve into Bundy and write that book. But that was
Speaker 5: It came out in two thousand and nine and I
Speaker 5: was done with Bundy except for you know, doing podcasts
Speaker 5: or whatever, or you know, maybe writing an article or
Speaker 5: a blog. But I didn't really want to write another
Speaker 5: book about Bundy. But in twenty fifteen, one of my
Speaker 5: close contacts with Bundy had passed away, and that was
Speaker 5: the Rain Fargo. I never got to interview Lorraine for
Speaker 5: The Bundy Murders, but we became friends afterwards, which she
Speaker 5: contacted me, and I write about Lorraine in The Bundy Murders.
Speaker 5: And in fact it was in that book that I
Speaker 5: don't like to I don't like to speculate about things.
Speaker 5: But I had a couple of things about Bundy. In
Speaker 5: the night that he abducted Kathy Parks, there was a
Speaker 5: couple of things that I speculated about that might have happened.
Speaker 5: And when I talked to the Rain, because she contacted
Speaker 5: me a year after my book The Bundy Murders were published,
Speaker 5: she was able to confirm that. But any wait, but
Speaker 5: she passed away. I hated to see her go and
Speaker 5: she but she was gone. And another of my contact,
Speaker 5: I can say it at the time, it was Jerry Thompson.
Speaker 5: He had been entering into a state of dementia for
Speaker 5: a while. And you know, when I talked to Jerry,
Speaker 5: I could see that, and I said, I got to
Speaker 5: thinking about it, and I thought, well, you know, if
Speaker 5: I'm ever going to write a companion volume that really
Speaker 5: I thought it would be the Companion Voume and then
Speaker 5: that would be done. I said, well, maybe I should
Speaker 5: do it now. And so I went out west. I
Speaker 5: retraced my steps, I went to some new places that
Speaker 5: I couldn't get to when I was researching the Bundy Murders,
Speaker 5: and lo and behold, I was finding out a lot
Speaker 5: of new information about the case that sure did add
Speaker 5: to my previous book, and it kind of like expanded it.
Speaker 5: And that's what that's what these volumes will do. And
Speaker 5: so anyway, that book came out in twenty sixteen, called
Speaker 5: The Trail of Ted Bundy. Well by this time a
Speaker 5: lot of people already knew me from the Bundy March.
Speaker 5: That book has been a good, steady seller ever since
Speaker 5: it came out. And then when I'm on a documentary
Speaker 5: or something that the sales will really shoot up and
Speaker 5: then they'll stay that way for a while to go
Speaker 5: back down. But it's always been a good seller. So
Speaker 5: I know people were getting my book and reading it.
Speaker 5: So that along with podcasts I would do, along with
Speaker 5: television interviews I would do. That was I became kind
Speaker 5: of like a magnet for people who carried these Bundy
Speaker 5: stories but had never really talked about it. It was the
Speaker 5: same thing with Lorraine. She said she avoided Bundy, she
Speaker 5: avoided the book of it. And I was the first
Speaker 5: person she ever contacted who had written about Bundy. And
Speaker 5: she said, it's time for me. I think it can
Speaker 5: be like a Catharsist for me to read your book
Speaker 5: and to talk about it. And then later one of
Speaker 5: Lorraine's friends, and a woman that lived in psych At
Speaker 5: Hall with Kathy Parks as well. She contacted me and
Speaker 5: she said, I've lived with this for years. I think
Speaker 5: I want to just I had heard that you write
Speaker 5: the book in the right way. You're not sensational in
Speaker 5: your writing. You talk about the victims a lot, So
Speaker 5: I'm going to read your books. She did and it
Speaker 5: helped her. But the bottom line is a lot of
Speaker 5: people started contacting me who had experiences with Bundy and
Speaker 5: are run in with Bundy. Now, there were people that
Speaker 5: contacted me that didn't because Bundy wasn't in the geographical
Speaker 5: area that they were in at the time, or there
Speaker 5: were certain things that they said that were strong red
Speaker 5: flags to me. But on the ones that I ended
Speaker 5: up putting in my companion volumes, they just didn't have
Speaker 5: any red flags. And you can sure tell when somebody
Speaker 5: is telling the truth and somebody is not. Some of
Speaker 5: these people that were trying to foster these fake images
Speaker 5: of running into Bundy, they'd have these elaborate stories, but
Speaker 5: others would have Well, I ran into him. He was
Speaker 5: driving this page VW. He seemed like a really nice guy.
Speaker 5: He wanted me to go with him in the car.
Speaker 5: It was a sunny day, but I just didn't want to.
Speaker 5: And then I never thought of again until his face
Speaker 5: started hitting the news in the papers and I thought, well, wow, wow,
Speaker 5: that's the guy I ran into. Basically a nothing story,
Speaker 5: but what makes it something is that they that they
Speaker 5: really ran into him, which over time can tell you
Speaker 5: things about Bundy and as well, in particular his hunting
Speaker 5: pattern when he got and we'll talk about that a
Speaker 5: lot more, because a lot of information came out about
Speaker 5: his hunting pattern, and it not only showed where Bundy
Speaker 5: was that first month he was in hugeahl hunting for women,
Speaker 5: but it also puts to death, in my opinion, a
Speaker 5: myth that's been around for a long time, a myth
Speaker 5: that I didn't even mention the Bundy murders because I
Speaker 5: never really believed. But I expanded it a little bit
Speaker 5: and talked about it in the Trail Dead Bundy. But anyway,
Speaker 5: so all these people kept coming to me, and my files,
Speaker 5: you know, would get inundated with information here and there,
Speaker 5: testimonies here and there, and I thought, well, you know,
Speaker 5: maybe I should write a third book because I've got
Speaker 5: these testimonies and I can go out and get more
Speaker 5: testimonies and find people that were that for instance, like
Speaker 5: I mentioned in the Buddy Mundy Murders, but were interviewed.
Speaker 5: And so the third companion volume came out, and I
Speaker 5: swear people laugh about this, and really I did too.
Speaker 5: Each time I put a companion volume out, like the
Speaker 5: third one was The Bundy Secrets. In that book, I
Speaker 5: presented a lot of I had these new testimonies, but
Speaker 5: I also presented certain parts of the record that I
Speaker 5: have always found so interesting with commentary and like backstory
Speaker 5: from me. So that came out, and every time I
Speaker 5: put out a companion volume, I thought, well, good, this
Speaker 5: is going to be this is going to be the
Speaker 5: last one, right, And so it just went on and on,
Speaker 5: and then of course, you know, the fourth book was
Speaker 5: Ted Bunny's Murder Mysteries, and again people had contacted me
Speaker 5: with these really interesting stories. And it's funny because when
Speaker 5: I just every time a book is published, I like
Speaker 5: to take about a week off, don't do anything except
Speaker 5: do podcasts or whatever or maybe radio interviews, and I go,
Speaker 5: I just the book's been released, I watch hots do
Speaker 5: and I just kind of relax a little bit. And
Speaker 5: so as soon as Ted Bundy's Murder Mysteries came out.
Speaker 5: I think that was in twenty seventeen. I had a
Speaker 5: guide contact me Facebook friend by Michael Ryan His name
Speaker 5: is Michael Ryan Hart. And Michael said to me, he said,
Speaker 5: and you never thought about doing a an encyclopedia like
Speaker 5: the Bundy Murders. And I said, no, I never had.
Speaker 5: But do you realize that just two days ago they
Speaker 5: just released a book of mim on Bundy. And he
Speaker 5: said yeah. I said, I can't get into that right now.
Speaker 5: I said, you know, on the it kind of sounds
Speaker 5: kind of good, but at the same time and I
Speaker 5: can't even think about that. He said, well, let's put
Speaker 5: it on the show for now. He said, I would
Speaker 5: do it myself, but I'm doing similar things with pertaining
Speaker 5: to the American Civil War and I said, he said,
Speaker 5: I just don't have time for it. So after a
Speaker 5: couple of days, I contacted my publisher. I ran it
Speaker 5: past them. I thought, well, they might say, well, we're
Speaker 5: really not interested in that, and I say, okay, fine,
Speaker 5: but they said no, we think it's a great idea.
Speaker 5: You should do it. So I did it. And it
Speaker 5: was a fun experience because I got to talk to
Speaker 5: some newspaper reporters and dig out information on them who
Speaker 5: were writing about these women that were disappearing. Then it
Speaker 5: was an interesting book to write, and was it was published,
Speaker 5: I thought, wow, it was a great idea. Then I
Speaker 5: ended it with the Enigma of Bundy, and I thought,
Speaker 5: after writing about I think the exact total number of
Speaker 5: pages is one four hundred and eighty five pages. After
Speaker 5: that many pages on the case, that really should be it.
Speaker 5: I mean, I've really said all I wanted to say.
Speaker 5: And then just a couple of weeks after the book
Speaker 5: was released, I had three people contact me. They all
Speaker 5: three might have been valid, but one lady had gotten
Speaker 5: the information from her deceased aunt and she didn't have enough,
Speaker 5: so I said, well, thank you very much, but there's
Speaker 5: not a lot I could do with that. But the
Speaker 5: other two women turned out to be real. I did
Speaker 5: some checking and we talked and I asked them various questions,
Speaker 5: and they turned out to be really, really, really good people,
Speaker 5: witnesses that had actually had contact with them. So I
Speaker 5: thought to myself, well, you know what am I going
Speaker 5: to do with these These are really good and they
Speaker 5: need to get out there in the printed page, so
Speaker 5: they'll be there for future researchers because you know, these
Speaker 5: people that were involved in the case, or a lot
Speaker 5: of them are passing away. Now there's Jerry Thompson's gone,
Speaker 5: Ron Holmes has gone out, Carlisle's gone on, Lorraine Fargo's gone,
Speaker 5: and god knows who else is gone that I don't
Speaker 5: even know about. So and you know, nobody's getting any younger.
Speaker 5: So I thought to myself, you know what, I'll ask
Speaker 5: my publisher. He may not be on board with this,
Speaker 5: but maybe I can write a yearly journal of these
Speaker 5: new testimonies that come in. And course, since this book's
Speaker 5: been published, I've already gotten one from a retired circuit
Speaker 5: court judge who had a run in with someone who
Speaker 5: was likely Bundy, and I'll add that to the next journal.
Speaker 5: But I just say to the publisher, I get these stories.
Speaker 5: If I think they're valid, I'll write about them, and
Speaker 5: then maybe in the journal I'll delve into maybe certain
Speaker 5: aspects of the case that need further maybe study. I
Speaker 5: can do that. And I said, do you think that's
Speaker 5: something that you'd like to do. And at the time,
Speaker 5: I'd already been writing about it, just writing about it. Anyway.
Speaker 5: So they said yes, and I said, you know, it's
Speaker 5: not going to be as long as a normal book
Speaker 5: would be anywhere from two hundred, two hundred and fifty
Speaker 5: to three hundred pages. It's not going to be that.
Speaker 5: It might be since I'm doing it yearly, maybe one
Speaker 5: hundred and fifty page or something like that. And they said, yeah,
Speaker 5: I mean, yeah, that's fine. So they came up with
Speaker 5: the title Ted Bundy the Yearly Journal. And I think
Speaker 5: it's good to look at it like that because it's
Speaker 5: something that as long as these tests on is keep
Speaker 5: coming in, I'll do it. And if it's every year
Speaker 5: or every year and a half or whatever, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 5: I'll keep putting it out there. And you know, Catherine
Speaker 5: Ramslin is a friend of mine, and you know, she
Speaker 5: even invited me to speak at a serial killer conference
Speaker 5: at the can University. So we've been friends for years.
Speaker 5: She's really a great person. She's really great and she's
Speaker 5: so knowledgeable. She always blurbs my book. She's always been
Speaker 5: kind enough to do it, and I just can't thank
Speaker 5: her enough. But she said something in the blurbing of
Speaker 5: this latest book, and it's absolutely true. And I love
Speaker 5: how she words it, I didn't come up with anything
Speaker 5: like this, but she said, we can still chip away
Speaker 5: at his secrets, meaning Mundy's secrets. And man, that is
Speaker 5: exactly what happens with this book. The Yearly Journal is
Speaker 5: because of this this thing. We'll talk about it more later,
Speaker 5: but the very fact that it's just a period out
Speaker 5: of nowhere, because of the testimony of people, because of
Speaker 5: one testimony, Susan Milner's out of the last book, I
Speaker 5: wrote the Enigma of Ted Bundy, where kru Bundy was
Speaker 5: hunting near his apartment the first month. He had got
Speaker 5: there late end of the month or possibly very very
Speaker 5: early October, like maybe the first but likely in late September.
Speaker 5: And then the new testimony of Free to Aid and
Speaker 5: the other lady who lived in that apartment and Bundy
Speaker 5: came to their door, and we'll talk about that more.
Speaker 5: Classic Bundy, the language he used. He was looking for
Speaker 5: another woman that lived there, But I was never searching
Speaker 5: for any of this. And yet because of certain things
Speaker 5: starting to fell like a pattern in a puzzle, this
Speaker 5: one dropped in, this one dropped in, another one dropped in.
Speaker 5: Then that started ruling out this other false story, and
Speaker 5: it was just amazing to see this come about. And it's,
Speaker 5: like Catherine said, we're chipping away at some of his
Speaker 5: secrets that he took. The only Bundy knew that he
Speaker 5: was hunting close to his apartment, which if you're going
Speaker 5: to be a psychopath and try to abduct women, I
Speaker 5: would think, because see I'm normal, I would think you
Speaker 5: need to go on the other side of Salt Lake
Speaker 5: somewhere where if you do something stupid and blow and
Speaker 5: somebody sees you, they won't be in your area. But no, no, no,
Speaker 5: Bundy started hunting in his proverbial backyard. And now that's
Speaker 5: been proven, and so has it that he couldn't have
Speaker 5: been doing this other thing, which we'll talk about later.
Speaker 5: But this is what draws me on now, Like right now,
Speaker 5: I've just started a major book on the killings that
Speaker 5: the Nazis did in World War Two, and it's going
Speaker 5: to take me a year, year and a half to write.
Speaker 5: But I'll still do the journal and as long as
Speaker 5: people still it give me information, as long as I
Speaker 5: think further aspects of the case need to be written about,
Speaker 5: as long as we can still chip away at bundy secrets,
Speaker 5: I am committed to doing that so anyway, that kind
Speaker 5: of brings you up on it.
Speaker 8: Yes, thank you. Let's get to as you right, you
Speaker 8: talk about Bundy's failed abductions, but you also talk to
Speaker 8: people like Ronald Holmes, the criminologists, and you talk about
Speaker 8: the information that Bundy gave about himself, of course in
Speaker 8: the third person. Yes, that I talk about his need
Speaker 8: or a need to repeat the killings again and again.
Speaker 8: And the killer serial killer learns the stock, wait and kill,
Speaker 8: and when he's killing, he gets better at stocking the
Speaker 8: waiting in the killing. And Bundy spoke of the force
Speaker 8: it becomes so strong, and he talks about a case
Speaker 8: where you mentioned a case where the force wasn't that
Speaker 8: strong and he was in his redemption phase, or he
Speaker 8: was at least trying not to not to reoffend, not
Speaker 8: to kill again. But you talk about also the failed abductions,
Speaker 8: and many of the people aren't so aware of Bundy's
Speaker 8: because Bundy didn't want to talk about the teen victims.
Speaker 8: But you say that he that he attacked two twelve
Speaker 8: year olds, and so you talk about about a half
Speaker 8: dozen other ones. Yes, so tell us about also the
Speaker 8: idea that for all the women that he may have killed,
Speaker 8: which you estimate and others estimate are thirty plus you
Speaker 8: say maybe even as many as forty. Yes, But in
Speaker 8: order to be able to approach those people successfully and
Speaker 8: then abduct them, you say that there have to be
Speaker 8: mathematically many, many approaches, and then you show examples of that.
Speaker 8: So tell us of examples of that to show the
Speaker 8: magnitude of the amount of approaches that Ted would have
Speaker 8: to do, yes to be while he was on his hunt.
Speaker 5: Well, you know, I've been thinking about this case from
Speaker 5: the last sixteen years. I mean it's daily, it's every day,
Speaker 5: and I've thought of various things that have to add
Speaker 5: up in Bundy's life, things that he didn't talk about.
Speaker 5: And everybody wants to know how many people Bundy killed. Well,
Speaker 5: Bundy told Bill Hagener at the end, he said, I
Speaker 5: don't know. You know, in the movie, if you see
Speaker 5: No Man of God, Bill's pressing him on that. He said,
Speaker 5: Bundy goes that again, and Hagmar goes out that again,
Speaker 5: and you know that conversation occurred or wouldn't be in there.
Speaker 5: And he said, I don't know how many, he said,
Speaker 5: they just all get confusing. I don't know. So, you know,
Speaker 5: some people say, could I say, it's almost got to
Speaker 5: be around the low forties, but it could go fifty
Speaker 5: or high er. We don't know. Even he doesn't know,
Speaker 5: but nobody usually nobody really is has ever that I
Speaker 5: know of, pose the question, at least publicly or in print,
Speaker 5: as to how many close calls were out there. I
Speaker 5: know that when Bundy went to Pocatello, Idaho, on May fifth,
Speaker 5: he drove up It's a straight shot out of Salt Lake,
Speaker 5: think about one hundred and eighty miles, and you know,
Speaker 5: he got up there. It was cold, And that's something
Speaker 5: I found out that I was writing the Bundy Mervs.
Speaker 5: He never got a co ed that day. He hunted
Speaker 5: all day. He got his room at the at the
Speaker 5: Holiday Inn, which is to the right off of our
Speaker 5: field team after you get into the city of Pocatello,
Speaker 5: and it's not in the downtown part, but it's in
Speaker 5: like a suburban park. And he got off there and
Speaker 5: then he went across underneath Pot fifteen. After he got
Speaker 5: his room and everything, and he went to the university
Speaker 5: there in Pocatello, and he hunted and he hunted all day,
Speaker 5: and he hunted into the night. And when they asked
Speaker 5: him about would anybody else had noticed who else maybe
Speaker 5: could you have attempted to abduct He said, well, a
Speaker 5: lot of the abductions failed before they went anywhere, and
Speaker 5: the women would have no knowledge of that, absolutely no
Speaker 5: knowledge of that. So he did admit that he was
Speaker 5: caught up in a women's only dormitory. Was a high rise,
Speaker 5: I think it was four or five stories, but anyway,
Speaker 5: he was caught up there by a male security guard
Speaker 5: and he shouldn't even be in there. So they asked,
Speaker 5: what are you doing in here? He said, well, he
Speaker 5: just made up some lame excuse. They said, well, I'd
Speaker 5: like to see some identification. He said, I don't have
Speaker 5: anything on me, so you have to leave the building
Speaker 5: right now, and so they put him out. Now I
Speaker 5: found out for the Bundy murders because I've got the
Speaker 5: file on Culbrat, one of the twelve year olds he
Speaker 5: murdered the next day on the sixth. But he hunted
Speaker 5: all day and end of the night, and he can't
Speaker 5: God only knows how many people he approached. And one
Speaker 5: of the reasons why he really couldn't get any women
Speaker 5: he wasn't as familiar with the area. But that's not
Speaker 5: really what was thwarting him. In my view, it was
Speaker 5: May fifth, but it was colder than normal. Winter was
Speaker 5: still unwilling to completely relinquish its grasp and it wouldn't
Speaker 5: let go. And there were snow showers on both days
Speaker 5: that Bundy was there. It could be sunny, but there
Speaker 5: were still some snow showers coming in and stuff like that,
Speaker 5: and it was cold. It was colder than normal. So
Speaker 5: you know, he just didn't get anybody. God knows how
Speaker 5: many people. Was it ten? No, it can't be ten.
Speaker 5: That would be too low. He spent hours and hours
Speaker 5: trying to obtain a victim. I would say that it's
Speaker 5: easily in Pocatello. It was probably for May fifth, thirty
Speaker 5: to forty, And that's easy to do if you're asking
Speaker 5: women here and there to help you. It's already been
Speaker 5: proven that when he was on the day. I'll skip
Speaker 5: over to Karen Campbell where he got her. On the
Speaker 5: evening of January twelfth, nineteen seventy five, at the wild
Speaker 5: Wood End. He had already admitted to haigmaring to other
Speaker 5: people that he had been hunting, and Mike Fisher told me,
Speaker 5: and I didn't put this in the Bundy murders. But
Speaker 5: Mike Fisher said, and then I read it later in
Speaker 5: an article and added it to one of my companion blumes.
Speaker 5: But Bundy had told Fisher he said, I was using
Speaker 5: crutches and like a briefcase in the city of Aspen
Speaker 5: earlier in the day and dropping it and trying to
Speaker 5: get women to help me. And he had a run
Speaker 5: in with one particular woman that I've got the thing on,
Speaker 5: but she wouldn't go with him. So before he got Campbell,
Speaker 5: he was down in Aspen itself hunting. But then he said,
Speaker 5: and this was Mike's words, he said, I went up
Speaker 5: amongst the lodges, and if you go there today, there's
Speaker 5: a lot of ski lodges there, and the wildwood in
Speaker 5: is kind of like all the way up the hill
Speaker 5: at the tip end of it, and it's like if
Speaker 5: you don't, if you're not looking carefully, you're gonna miss
Speaker 5: it and you will end up in another lodge. So
Speaker 5: how he ended up there, I don't know, but that's
Speaker 5: where he went. But he had already and this was
Speaker 5: I guess. He got Campbell around oh, I'd say around
Speaker 5: seven thirty pm, and he was hunting at around the
Speaker 5: pool area, the outdoor pool area at the wild Wood End,
Speaker 5: And I bring this out in the Bundye Murders second
Speaker 5: edition exactly how he got Campbell and so you know,
Speaker 5: he was trying to get the attention of another woman.
Speaker 5: So and then Karen Campbell saw him from the balcony
Speaker 5: and you got to remember that, as I said in
Speaker 5: the Bundye Murders, the steam coming off the pool is
Speaker 5: because it's so cold, and it's an outdoor heated pool,
Speaker 5: that'll kind of develop people and then it'll kind of
Speaker 5: spread out and you'll see people and whatever. But Karen
Speaker 5: was able to spot him. He looked like he was
Speaker 5: needing help, and being a nurse, she offered her help.
Speaker 5: And that was a fatal mistake. And so then they
Speaker 5: went out to the side parking lot and that's where
Speaker 5: Bundy assaulted her and got her into his VW. But
Speaker 5: how many people did he hunt once he went to
Speaker 5: How many women did he try to get to go
Speaker 5: with him after he failed and asked been stumbling on
Speaker 5: crutches in the briefcase before Karen Campbell offered, Only God knows.
Speaker 5: So there's lots of people in every event else Bundy,
Speaker 5: you know, I don't add hitchhikers in that, because Bundy
Speaker 5: was a planner of murderer. For the most part. He
Speaker 5: would salk women. He salked women a lot more than
Speaker 5: people realize. But he also was an opportunitist, so whenever
Speaker 5: he picked up an hedge hiker, that's okay, that's going
Speaker 5: to be an easy kill. And you know, if he
Speaker 5: was in the mood to killer, and he almost always was,
Speaker 5: it was the rare occasion when he changed his mind
Speaker 5: and didn't. But there's so many people out there. So
Speaker 5: I came up with an estimate that if Bundy even
Speaker 5: abducted on the lower end, like thirty to thirty five,
Speaker 5: thirty six people, you're looking at If you just say
Speaker 5: he had to talk to at least ten people for
Speaker 5: every person that he was able to abduct, you're looking
Speaker 5: at a number of three hundred and fifty people. So
Speaker 5: that that's a lot of people to encounter Bundy and
Speaker 5: not go with him. And they never had any idea
Speaker 5: what a deadly situation they were looking at when they
Speaker 5: were talking to him. So there's a lot. It could
Speaker 5: be four hundred, it could be over four hundred. There's
Speaker 5: only God knows because, for example, he hunted on two
Speaker 5: different days Central Washington State College, but he didn't get
Speaker 5: Susan Rancourt until around ten fifteen, ten thirty on April seventeenth,
Speaker 5: nineteen seventy four. So how many did he talk to
Speaker 5: that afternoon and on the other day where he apparently
Speaker 5: got no one? How many what thirty forty fifty more,
Speaker 5: We don't know, We don't know. So he had contact
Speaker 5: with a lot of women that he intended to kill,
Speaker 5: but they just would not go with him for one
Speaker 5: reason for another. And thank god that one lady that
Speaker 5: did follow Bundy to his car at Central Warthnon State College.
Speaker 5: And I elaborate on this, I mean, I talk about
Speaker 5: it in the Bundy Meurs, but actually went to CWSC
Speaker 5: for the second book, The Trail of Ted Bundy. And
Speaker 5: at the time, now that Whope area now has been
Speaker 5: eaten up by parking lots and new buildings have been
Speaker 5: built there. But at the time Bundy did this, you know,
Speaker 5: they had to leave the library, turn right, and then
Speaker 5: they crossed a little man made bridge between a little
Speaker 5: round building called the Group Conference Center and the library,
Speaker 5: and then they would angle off. And when they angled off,
Speaker 5: you know Bundy, he never left anything the chance. He
Speaker 5: had parked as VW on the most remote area on campus,
Speaker 5: about one hundred and fifty feet from the library, no
Speaker 5: buildings around. As you see today, there was only one
Speaker 5: building that was called Black Hall. Today, if you look
Speaker 5: at Black Hall from the air, it's two long buildings connected.
Speaker 5: It looks like an eighth shape from the air. But
Speaker 5: back then it was just one long building that was
Speaker 5: just kind of like right next to the library and
Speaker 5: between the it was a little around place called the
Speaker 5: Group Conference Center with this unusual little tin roof. And
Speaker 5: he walked across this man May bridge and they turned
Speaker 5: left angled left off of that, and then they walked
Speaker 5: into the ever increasing darkness. And Bundy had parked right
Speaker 5: underneath a railroad wrestle that was bounded by tall grass,
Speaker 5: and it was rarely traveled by students, and so he
Speaker 5: picked the perfect place. And the one lady went with him,
Speaker 5: and she started to feel very suspicious of him. And
Speaker 5: what Bundy did was, you know, and I say this
Speaker 5: in a number of my books, but Bundy like a
Speaker 5: lot of killers when he was When he sensed that
Speaker 5: he had somebody, he would start going into that altered
Speaker 5: state of murder. And if you look at the testimony
Speaker 5: of this one lady who survived his her encounter with
Speaker 5: Bundy at CWSC, she said, when she was talking to him,
Speaker 5: I mean, his eyes were normal. He just didn't look
Speaker 5: weird at all. But as they were walking to his car,
Speaker 5: she turned and looked at him and she said, his
Speaker 5: eyes were really weird. And I asked Harleisle about that
Speaker 5: as I was writing the Bundy Mrtors, because I wanted
Speaker 5: to kind of get it right. What happened? Do you think?
Speaker 5: He said, Well, a lot of women have reported to
Speaker 5: me that right before someone attacked them and assaulted them,
Speaker 5: they had this change in their eyes, and it would
Speaker 5: he said, I think it's a neural transmitter change, but
Speaker 5: in any event, it's getting into that altered state. So
Speaker 5: she went through the motions, but she, you know, she
Speaker 5: got to Bundy's car and she asked her to get in,
Speaker 5: and she said no. And when she looked in the car,
Speaker 5: and this really bothered her. She said that the passenger
Speaker 5: seat was out, and he would often do that so
Speaker 5: we'd have room to lay an unconscious woman in there
Speaker 5: and throw a blanket over her. But she was able
Speaker 5: to get away from him. So we know how, we
Speaker 5: know how Bundy did things within his attempts to abduct women,
Speaker 5: but she got away from him. So how many did
Speaker 5: he really haunted cwsc over a period of two days.
Speaker 5: I think forty to fifty would be a conservative estimate
Speaker 5: that he would run into where I mean, a lot
Speaker 5: of girls probably just blew him off. So I'm sorry,
Speaker 5: I gotta go, but he spent hours. Yeah, So there's
Speaker 5: a lot out there even today that have never come forth.
Speaker 5: And a lot of these women tell me I never
Speaker 5: went to the police because I mean, it was it
Speaker 5: was almost like a nothing in counter And as I
Speaker 5: talked in the book, there was there was a lady
Speaker 5: from Oregon State University. And when I'm writing, when I'm
Speaker 5: talking to her a couple of years ago, or you know,
Speaker 5: whenever that was, I asked her what year and she
Speaker 5: didn't really know his early seventies and she went back
Speaker 5: and I said, if you could find out something, and
Speaker 5: she either said to me, she contacted me back and
Speaker 5: she said sure, she said nineteen seventy three. But my
Speaker 5: mind could play tricks so many she might have said
Speaker 5: nineteen seventy five. And I said to her then and listen,
Speaker 5: she was so sweet, she said. As she started the conversation,
Speaker 5: she said, I'm absolutely convinced, as bunny, because I got
Speaker 5: a good look at him. I talked to him. You know,
Speaker 5: we exchanged words, and I remember what he founded like,
Speaker 5: I remember his face now his hair was And she said,
Speaker 5: I'm just I just know him. And that's what the
Speaker 5: Encounty wasn't. Here's what the encounter was. She's like reading something.
Speaker 5: She steps out into the street. He's moving slowly through
Speaker 5: the campus. He almost bumps into his VW. He stops,
Speaker 5: rolls down his window on the pastor's side, talks to her.
Speaker 5: They exchange pleasantries, you know, ex prices, I'm sorry or whatever.
Speaker 5: And he said, well, look, he must have said something
Speaker 5: like these new on campus whatever, and could she show
Speaker 5: them around? It was some kind of excuse. I can't
Speaker 5: remember exactly what she said, other than the fact that
Speaker 5: it was very nice. She got a great look at it.
Speaker 5: She remembered what he sounded like, and she identified his vehicle,
Speaker 5: and he got his VW in seventy three, But when
Speaker 5: she told me, it was like seventy three, or it
Speaker 5: could have been seventy five. Because I didn't really write
Speaker 5: it down. I thought, well, I said, no, it can't
Speaker 5: be him, because he was there in nineteen seventy four
Speaker 5: and I had forgotten about it. I had completely forgotten
Speaker 5: about that. Bundy admitted to killing two in Oregon, and
Speaker 5: because he was such a creature of habit, he obviously
Speaker 5: went back there. It could have been in seventy three
Speaker 5: because he got his Volkswagen. Then his little beage Volkes left,
Speaker 5: just like I said. And so what did she say
Speaker 5: to me? She said, Oh, well, I guess I'm wrong,
Speaker 5: and I don't have her name, and I don't I
Speaker 5: hope she reads my book and recontacts me, because she's
Speaker 5: still on the contact to me in the first place.
Speaker 5: So I said to myself that I will never, ever,
Speaker 5: under any circumstances not write down everything that is told
Speaker 5: to me, whether I think I'm going to use it
Speaker 5: or not. So that's what I've adopted since then. But anyway,
Speaker 5: he just there's lots of women out there still that
Speaker 5: had encounters, And like I say, I just got contacted, oh,
Speaker 5: a number of months ago from a retired circuit court
Speaker 5: judge out in Oregon, and she had an experience with
Speaker 5: what she believes is Bundy, and he was. But this
Speaker 5: was in nineteen seventy or seventy one, and Bundy borrowed
Speaker 5: a lot of vehicles. He always did. That's one thing
Speaker 5: that's the surface over the last sixteen years of research.
Speaker 5: He would borrow vehicles to search for victims, more than
Speaker 5: most people realize. And she said it was a BAIGVW.
Speaker 5: And I said, well, he didn't get his bag VW
Speaker 5: into this because this had happened to her was in
Speaker 5: seventy one seventy two, and she didn't make a police
Speaker 5: report about it. But I found out and I'm going
Speaker 5: to do more investigation on this because the story is
Speaker 5: going to go into the next journal. But she said,
Speaker 5: and I can't. I don't want to get into everything
Speaker 5: that happens while she was in the car with him,
Speaker 5: but she was able to get away. But I found
Speaker 5: out that Bundy's good friend, Marlon Boortman had owned a
Speaker 5: Beige VW around this same time. And I know that
Speaker 5: he had borrowed vehicles from the Boardmans on other occasions
Speaker 5: when they didn't have that BEAGEVW. So he didn't have it,
Speaker 5: that's what I have heard. So I'm going to do
Speaker 5: more investigation into that. But he could have borrowed it
Speaker 5: and it could be somebody else's. But was it an
Speaker 5: encounter with Bundy. I can't say for sure. She can't
Speaker 5: say for sure, but it's interesting enough to put it
Speaker 5: in there, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if
Speaker 5: it wasn't Bundy. And that's based on some things that
Speaker 5: she said he did while she was in the car.
Speaker 5: But I'm going to go into that in the book.
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Speaker 8: That's friends without the r Best Themes Now, Kevin, you
Speaker 8: include and you had alluded to it already. You mentioned
Speaker 8: this an incredible story that backs up a lot of
Speaker 8: the information that you have already written about, but new information.
Speaker 8: In this journal of the yearly journal, you spoke with
Speaker 8: a person named Freda Aid and this is regarding Debbie
Speaker 8: Christiansen and her daughter, and they were friends. Free Daid
Speaker 8: and Debbie Christensen were friends who had moved from Florida
Speaker 8: to Salt Lake in July nineteen seventy four at the
Speaker 8: Annie Laurie apartments. And you got this story from Jody Jones,
Speaker 8: which is I guess Debbie's daughter. And so they were
Speaker 8: living in Salt Lake and one night a man knocked
Speaker 8: on the door. You write about their experience. What did
Speaker 8: they experience? Why did you include this? Why were they
Speaker 8: so certain they encountered about Bundy?
Speaker 5: Well, this is a one hundred percent proven that Bundy
Speaker 5: came to the door. And here's what happened. Yeah, they
Speaker 5: were good friends. Freedom will say that she's got a
Speaker 5: memory like a steel trap. She remembers everything. And I
Speaker 5: didn't get to talk to Jody's mother, but she told
Speaker 5: me the story and it almost matched perfectly with what
Speaker 5: Freedom's told me. And here's what happened. So they were
Speaker 5: living in a brownstone that if you go from Buddy's
Speaker 5: apartment at five sixty five First Avenue, he lived in
Speaker 5: what is known the Avenues, And if you go five
Speaker 5: blocks west of that, heading towards downtown, and then you
Speaker 5: turn at the light and go three blocks south, you'll
Speaker 5: run into the lor and apartments and it's they're these brownstones.
Speaker 5: And when I was there in two thousand and six
Speaker 5: and again in two thousand and fifteen, I was all
Speaker 5: over this area, but I had no idea and wouldn't
Speaker 5: hear this testimony until years later. But so I had
Speaker 5: to pass the place on numerous occasions. But they got
Speaker 5: a knock on the door one afternoon, and they opened
Speaker 5: it up, and they both came to the door, and
Speaker 5: there was this man that they later identified as Bundy.
Speaker 5: And the first thing out of his mouth is high,
Speaker 5: I don't mean to bother you. And in the journal
Speaker 5: I talk about how things like this classic Bundy. He
Speaker 5: was constantly saying excuse me, miss or, I'm sorry to
Speaker 5: bother you, or this or that. He'd have all these
Speaker 5: pleasant trees where he'd greet them. And here's what he said.
Speaker 5: He said, I'm looking for a woman that lives in
Speaker 5: your apartment. He couldn't remember her name. Somewhere in her complex,
Speaker 5: he said, he described her, and she had long, dark hair,
Speaker 5: part of the middle. Whatever he described her, they knew
Speaker 5: of her, but didn't know her name. And he said
Speaker 5: I'm a law student at the University of Utah and
Speaker 5: she's in my class and I borrowed her notes, and
Speaker 5: i'd like to return them to her. I just need
Speaker 5: to know what apartment she lives in. And they said,
Speaker 5: and I remember, you know, Freda said, well, we know
Speaker 5: who you're talking about, but we don't know her name.
Speaker 5: We don't know her apartment. But she's a telephone operator.
Speaker 5: And when we're getting off work and we're coming home,
Speaker 5: she's leaving for work, and a lot of times we'll
Speaker 5: pass each other, you know, like say hello or whatever.
Speaker 5: And she said, if you want me to, we see
Speaker 5: her quite a bit. I can if she comes out
Speaker 5: later to go to work, if she's worked like today, whatever,
Speaker 5: I'll give her the notes. And he said, no, that's okay.
Speaker 5: I'll see her in class tomorrow and I can give
Speaker 5: her the notes then. And I remember Frida said, she's
Speaker 5: such an extrovert. She said, it's a wonder I didn't
Speaker 5: invite him in for dinner because he was just very
Speaker 5: polite and things like that. And she said later, she said,
Speaker 5: you know, obviously they were on for a floor, so
Speaker 5: they could obviously see his car. And she said, no,
Speaker 5: saw his car around the neighborhood quite a bit, and
Speaker 5: so that is classic Bunday and what he would do,
Speaker 5: he would stalk women. So apparently he was going down
Speaker 5: and again Freeda said this, So I have to say this.
Speaker 5: I said, when was this? She said, it was before
Speaker 5: the murders of October, and as a case progressed, the
Speaker 5: authorities looked back, and of course it was Nancy Wilcox
Speaker 5: who disappeared, thought to have been a runaway. Later, when
Speaker 5: these women started to disappear, they started to consider her
Speaker 5: a homicide victim, and so they kind of started classing
Speaker 5: her like that, that she might be linked with all
Speaker 5: the other women. Jerry Thompson worked most of these cases,
Speaker 5: and so it was before October. Now, when I was
Speaker 5: talking to Jodie, she said, well, mom, and this is
Speaker 5: why Frieda said, well, she just can't remember. She was
Speaker 5: thinking it happened like before he got arrested, just like
Speaker 5: weeks before he got arrested, she said. Freeda told me, no,
Speaker 5: she said, it was really before the murders in October,
Speaker 5: and she said that's when it happened. So it wasn't
Speaker 5: until you know, the following October when he was actually
Speaker 5: hit the news and arrested his paper. His face started
Speaker 5: to hit the papers, but she said, yeah, and having
Speaker 5: seen his vehicle, we remember seeing his vehicle. His vehicle
Speaker 5: parked in various areas around the neighborhood, and because it
Speaker 5: was a little distance from his place, you know, he
Speaker 5: would just drive and park there and he looked for victims. Again,
Speaker 5: this is all happening the first month he was there,
Speaker 5: and September was a busy month for Bundy. He didn't
Speaker 5: even arrive in the city. He left on the second.
Speaker 5: It was one of the nice things I was able
Speaker 5: to discover for the Bundy murders. Some people say he
Speaker 5: left on the third, other people say early September, but
Speaker 5: I was able to trace his gas receipts and he
Speaker 5: left actually on Labor Day, September second of seventy four,
Speaker 5: and again, and then he picked up a hitchhiker later
Speaker 5: and then after sometime after maybe I don't know, close
Speaker 5: to eleven o'clock he murdered the hitch hiker, the Idaho
Speaker 5: hitch hiker. And then he didn't arrive until the early
Speaker 5: morning hours of September third. Then you know, he's busy
Speaker 5: setting up his apartment and then he goes home. He
Speaker 5: flies home in the middle of the month, gets a
Speaker 5: truck that he has loaded with furniture, and has Glenn
Speaker 5: drive back with him. And I don't know how long
Speaker 5: Glenn stayed, but he drove back with him and helped
Speaker 5: him get his furniture upstairs and stuff like that, and
Speaker 5: maybe went home the next day and flew back home.
Speaker 5: And then of course he had to enroll in school
Speaker 5: a little, you know, go over there and make a
Speaker 5: presentation that he was indeed there and was ready to
Speaker 5: start classes. Although he after he did all that he
Speaker 5: was he was killing so much and started in October.
Speaker 5: As I said that, he wasn't there very much, maybe
Speaker 5: not any more than three times that first semester, but
Speaker 5: he was very busy. And so again this hunting pattern emerged.
Speaker 5: And the reason why i'd emerged when Freda Aid and
Speaker 5: the other lady which story came through Jody, when she
Speaker 5: determined when they win this war, I immediately thought back
Speaker 5: to Susan Milner, whose testimony is in the last book
Speaker 5: of the six books, The Enigma of Dead Bundy and
Speaker 5: what happened there. She was even closer to Bundy's apartments,
Speaker 5: and she had had a little argument with her husband
Speaker 5: and just left to go for a walk, and she
Speaker 5: stopped at the school. She told me, Susan, they lived
Speaker 5: in above a pharmacy on the corner, and they're like,
Speaker 5: I think she's like a couple of blocks from from
Speaker 5: Bundy's place. Well, she walked down and this is like
Speaker 5: in the afternoon, and she walked down like a block
Speaker 5: or so, went into like a school yard that has
Speaker 5: a fence, and she went in where the opening was
Speaker 5: and she sat in a Then she walked down to
Speaker 5: the swings and she was just swinging and Bundy pulled
Speaker 5: up in his VW park got out and came and
Speaker 5: leaned on the fence and put you know how people
Speaker 5: will put both their arms on the fence and just
Speaker 5: lean on it. And he said, you know how you
Speaker 5: doing and whatever, and he said, listen, you know, would
Speaker 5: you like to take a ride with me? And I
Speaker 5: remember she said, look, I was mad at my husband,
Speaker 5: but I just married, you know, And she was she
Speaker 5: was she was pregnant, although it wasn't showing. She said,
Speaker 5: I'm certainly not in my marriage by going on the
Speaker 5: ride with a guy. So she told him no, Well,
Speaker 5: he asked her again she said no, and with that
Speaker 5: she said, he you maybe a little of discourage and he,
Speaker 5: she said, he tapped his fist a couple of times
Speaker 5: on the top of the fence and said okay and
Speaker 5: then walked off. Got VW and And that's another example
Speaker 5: of an almost know nothing story, but at the same
Speaker 5: time it is a story because she identified him after
Speaker 5: he surfaced, you know, you know, a year later. So
Speaker 5: again and that was and again she said, I got
Speaker 5: married on September tenth, and it was just she thinks
Speaker 5: a couple of weeks after that. So again we're talking
Speaker 5: late September, and so I'm figuring out and that's what
Speaker 5: Katherine Ramslin said. We're still able to chip away the secret.
Speaker 5: So he knew where he had been honey that first
Speaker 5: month before he started actually, so he had Again he's failing.
Speaker 5: He's failing. He can't be not able to get who
Speaker 5: he wants to get. So we don't know how many
Speaker 5: that first month, but it was just he just landed
Speaker 5: in Utah and he's already starting to hunt. As busy
Speaker 5: as September was, he still had time to hunt and
Speaker 5: kill women. So that came to the surface. And at
Speaker 5: the same time and we can go into it later.
Speaker 5: That in my view, that totally kills this myth that
Speaker 5: Ted Bundy, Newlawa and Amy just didn't happen. It just
Speaker 5: didn't happen. That that myth as Bundy. Just think of
Speaker 5: this listen. I think uh And I liked him. I
Speaker 5: wish he would have been alive when I was writing
Speaker 5: The Bundy Murders. I really wanted to talk to there.
Speaker 5: But Richard Lard, I love his book The Deliberate Stranger,
Speaker 5: but he had passed away and I so regretted not
Speaker 5: being able to talk with him. But anyway, he has
Speaker 5: something about that in the book. And there were some
Speaker 5: people that believed this connection to see these people came
Speaker 5: to them afterwards. One of the guys died in the
Speaker 5: nineteen eighties. But there's this under woman I say her name,
Speaker 5: but she said that Bundy, you know, came and made
Speaker 5: friends with them in September. You know, she even said
Speaker 5: over the summer when he know he wasn't there. But
Speaker 5: the talk was this myth was is that some people
Speaker 5: believe it to this day. I didn't, so I didn't
Speaker 5: put it in The Bundy Mursey. But the myth was
Speaker 5: is that Bundy after getting If you look at what
Speaker 5: the record says, and what they said is that Bundy
Speaker 5: was coming down there like in the fall September, all
Speaker 5: that area through there and making friends, going down to
Speaker 5: tiny Lehigh, Utah. At the time, it has less than
Speaker 5: five thousand people there, and apparently, as the myth goes,
Speaker 5: he went down there, made friends with some of the guys,
Speaker 5: got to meet Laura and Amy, spent time with her.
Speaker 5: Now he's busy back here, hunting women, going home in
Speaker 5: the middle of the month, not arriving until the third,
Speaker 5: having to set up things with school. Even though he's
Speaker 5: not going to be there much. He's it's busy, and
Speaker 5: on top of that, he's hunting in his own proverbial backyard.
Speaker 5: The thought that he come to Utah and zip down
Speaker 5: the tiny, tiny, minuscule Lehigh, Utah and spending all this time,
Speaker 5: day after day making friends with these guys and Laura
Speaker 5: and Amy at a place called Brown's Cafe, which wasn't
Speaker 5: really the name, it was the nickname for this place.
Speaker 5: It just didn't happen. It didn't happen. Now, I didn't
Speaker 5: know all of this. I didn't know his honting patter
Speaker 5: for that month, which could disprove this other thing. I
Speaker 5: didn't know the Honting pattern. But when I wrote about
Speaker 5: because I didn't mention it in the Bundy Murders. When
Speaker 5: I wrote about this in The Trail of Ted Bundy
Speaker 5: that came out in twenty sixteen, I said, this is
Speaker 5: not something I used. It didn't feel good to me.
Speaker 5: Then it doesn't feel good to me now. In other words,
Speaker 5: I wouldn't use it again. If I rewrote the Money Murders,
Speaker 5: I said, I'm not saying it can't be true. It's
Speaker 5: I guess it's possible. It could be true. But there's
Speaker 5: just too many things that don't act like that don't
Speaker 5: add up for me. But here's the story, and I
Speaker 5: bet you yes.
Speaker 8: Let's use this as an opportunity to stop for a
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Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 5: You do?
Speaker 3: In the car before my kid's pta meeting?
Speaker 6: Really, yes, excuse me, what's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky?
Speaker 5: I never win and tell.
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Speaker 8: You were talking about this story that again you talk
Speaker 8: about in this journal is that many of the myths
Speaker 8: about Bondie are dispelled about that he would operate in
Speaker 8: broad daylight like Lake Sammamish where he is abducted to
Speaker 8: in one day. But you say that soon after, because
Speaker 8: of the composite drawing, because people had witnessed him, so
Speaker 8: many people had seen him and it even heard his name,
Speaker 8: ted that he resorted back to nighttime hunting. You said that,
Speaker 8: and you say, you talk about that in all your research,
Speaker 8: you realized that the night research. Pardon me, that his
Speaker 8: night hunting is where he started. Tell us about that.
Speaker 5: Yes, you know, everybody knows he started at night, but
Speaker 5: nobody has ever commented on how when I believe the
Speaker 5: events of Lakes some Amish affected him and he went
Speaker 5: immediately back in the nighttime hunting. No one had ever
Speaker 5: talked about that. But I thought about this for a
Speaker 5: long time, and I first announced it publicly because I
Speaker 5: knew I was going to write about it in Enigma.
Speaker 5: But at the Serial Killer conference, I said, I'm just
Speaker 5: I've known this for a long time, but I'm going
Speaker 5: to tell you here because I knew it was going
Speaker 5: to be soon in this other book. And so in
Speaker 5: twenty set there were twenty. I was down at this
Speaker 5: conference at Kana University and I said, if you look
Speaker 5: at what he did, he went he had counted some
Speaker 5: problems at Lake Samamish. He started his killing in the
Speaker 5: middle of the night. He started it with the attack
Speaker 5: on karen Sparks. He then went to the early morning attack,
Speaker 5: like probably between two and three AM or two and four,
Speaker 5: but no later than that. I'm sure he got Linda
Speaker 5: and Healy and Whisker away from her home that she
Speaker 5: shared with the other cohs, and everything was nighttime until
Speaker 5: April seventeenth, nineteen seventy four. He was hunting a little
Speaker 5: bit in the afternoon noon, she was out in the daylight,
Speaker 5: and then he hunted all night that night and then
Speaker 5: the other time he was at CWSC. We only have
Speaker 5: a record for him hunting at night, but he stayed
Speaker 5: with the night hunting all the way through Brenda Mall.
Speaker 5: It was already dark when he hunted Donald Manson at
Speaker 5: Evergreen State College. It was about seven thirty, and I
Speaker 5: put it in an enigma when sundown was and all
Speaker 5: these you can see he's sunning just basically at night.
Speaker 5: Then he edges himself in daylight, and then about July
Speaker 5: of seventy four, he is hunting in broad daylight. But
Speaker 5: because you know, he uses really in ted because one
Speaker 5: woman followed him to his car and identified it as
Speaker 5: like a BEIJVW. He you know, he kind of spooped him.
Speaker 5: He never talked about it to my knowledge to anybody,
Speaker 5: but he immediately goes into nighttime hunting again. And so
Speaker 5: after that, you look at all the women that he
Speaker 5: started to abduct and murder in Utah, every one of
Speaker 5: them is under the cover of darkness. And unless there's
Speaker 5: somebody out there that we don't know that he killed,
Speaker 5: he would remain getting people in darkness, whether it be
Speaker 5: early evening or you know, well, of course, like but
Speaker 5: he got January twelve, seventy five, Jarry Campbell around seven thirty.
Speaker 5: I think sundown was like before five pm, so he
Speaker 5: was in darkness and he didn't come back out into
Speaker 5: the light that we know of from the record until
Speaker 5: he abducted Denise Oliverson and I think that was April
Speaker 5: sixth of nineteen seventy five, so he retreated back into
Speaker 5: the darkness. No one had ever written about that, no
Speaker 5: one had ever spoken about that. But again, these are
Speaker 5: the kind of things that come up with me after
Speaker 5: spending so many years looking at the case. Another thing
Speaker 5: that I brought up in one of my companion by
Speaker 5: us and I first announced this because I knew I
Speaker 5: was going to write about it in the book. I
Speaker 5: first announced this on a Facebook my Facebook page or
Speaker 5: on a buddy side, I can't remember which, but I said,
Speaker 5: you know, Bundy, he was so broke all the time
Speaker 5: that you know, you absolutely have to know that he
Speaker 5: took the money, bills and change from the victims that
Speaker 5: he murdered when they had money on them. There's no
Speaker 5: reason he wouldn't have. He needed money too badly. Everybody said,
Speaker 5: I never thought of that, but that's got to be right.
Speaker 5: A couple of people said, no, he probably didn't, and
Speaker 5: I don't know why they would say that, because Bundy
Speaker 5: was a thief. He would steal he would never beary
Speaker 5: money with them. He wouldn't do it, he'd take the money.
Speaker 5: In fact, I'll never be able to prove it. But
Speaker 5: he was so broke that when after he killed Janisot
Speaker 5: and Denise aslom At having abducted the multiroke some amish.
Speaker 5: I'm sure they had some money on them, at least
Speaker 5: one of them had, probably Janis if she had brought
Speaker 5: her purse and stuff, and Denise had left her personal car,
Speaker 5: so she probably didn't have any money on her, but
Speaker 5: I bet Jana's did. And when he took Liz out
Speaker 5: and Tina out to get Hamburger's and ice cream that night,
Speaker 5: there's a good chance he used money that came from Aunt.
Speaker 5: But these are the kind of things you think about
Speaker 5: as you study the case, and they just kind of
Speaker 5: pump up. But I don't know when it happened. Uto.
Speaker 5: Wait a minute, there's a pattern here. He starts off
Speaker 5: Buddy at night, he's in the daytime. Then he does
Speaker 5: this really egregious double abduction in broad daylight at a
Speaker 5: place where there's forty thousand people, including the police department
Speaker 5: that's having a picnic there, and then he they're looking
Speaker 5: for Ted they're looking for a VW and that must
Speaker 5: have kind of shaken him a bit, and then he
Speaker 5: retreats back into the darkness. So yes, these are just
Speaker 5: the kind of things that I end up seeing. And
Speaker 5: again that just kind of came to me. We'll wait
Speaker 5: a minute. We have a real pattern here. It starts
Speaker 5: at night, early morning, night afternoon, around noon, bam, all day.
Speaker 5: I mean, you know, at different times during the bright
Speaker 5: sunny day at lake some amage and immediately back into
Speaker 5: the darkness. So yeah, So but this thing about where
Speaker 5: his hunting pattern was the first month, he said, huge doll.
Speaker 5: I never saw that coming. That couldn't have figured it
Speaker 5: out if it wouldn't have been for the Milner testimony.
Speaker 5: And then the two women that opened the door to him,
Speaker 5: and he was all polite and everything, and he said,
Speaker 5: I'm a law student. I just want to give the
Speaker 5: lady that her notes back, you know. But then there
Speaker 5: it was, and again I liked what us what Katherine
Speaker 5: Ramsell said. It's it really is about chipping away the secret.
Speaker 5: So and that's why I said in the book, and
Speaker 5: you read it, you know where where you know these
Speaker 5: testimonies are buried, new information come forth discoveries await, and
Speaker 5: so you know, that's how you got to look at it,
Speaker 5: especially if you're writing about a case that goes on
Speaker 5: a long time. I mean, the very fact that I'm
Speaker 5: here having written seven books about Mundy now over close
Speaker 5: to sixteen hundred pages. I never envisioned any of this.
Speaker 5: I didn't even envision on writing the Bundy Murse. If
Speaker 5: it wouldn't have been for Jim Massey, my good friend
Speaker 5: who's passed away now is a probation and parole officer
Speaker 5: in Louisville, and his good friendship with Jerry Thompson that
Speaker 5: he met in the nineteen early, very early nineteen eighties,
Speaker 5: I would have never written this book on Bundy because
Speaker 5: I got to meet Jerry and from there it just
Speaker 5: took off. So yeah, it's been an amazing journey. But
Speaker 5: to think that I was able to come up with
Speaker 5: so many new testimonies. How about the one with the
Speaker 5: lady that encountered Bundy as she was on her way
Speaker 5: to Hanks Tabron in North Tacoma and Bundy pulls up
Speaker 5: in a El Camino and he said he acted like
Speaker 5: he wasn't from around there or something. He said he
Speaker 5: was looking for a particular place, which turned out to
Speaker 5: be a landmark restaurant, and she said, we tried to
Speaker 5: give me. She tried to give him her directions. He said,
Speaker 5: I can't. And then this is so much like Bundy.
Speaker 5: He said, if you could just get in the car
Speaker 5: and show me take me there, I will give you
Speaker 5: gas money to get back. And she thought, great, I
Speaker 5: have gas money for my friends. We have some beer
Speaker 5: on it, and she went over to get in another car.
Speaker 5: He and she looked in because she was standing back
Speaker 5: from him. He was coming on the street towards her
Speaker 5: and she was on the other side of the street,
Speaker 5: and I guess she came over and talked to him,
Speaker 5: got close to him. And then when she came around,
Speaker 5: when she agreed to do it, she looked in there
Speaker 5: the passenger bucket seat had been removed, and she said
Speaker 5: her friend Pam. Her friend Pam had the same encounter
Speaker 5: with the same guy and the same el blackish bluish
Speaker 5: el Camino with the seat down like she I think,
Speaker 5: she said, three weeks later, I had to check check
Speaker 5: the ball, but they compared notes. It was the same guy,
Speaker 5: and that guy had to have been Bundy. And she said,
Speaker 5: you know, I knew. I wasn't really familiar with all
Speaker 5: of his crimes, but when his face started like hitting
Speaker 5: the papers the news, I said, well that's the guy.
Speaker 5: You know, these are just things that happened and failed deductions.
Speaker 5: And if you look, and I told Mike mccanna about
Speaker 5: a friend of mine and a fellow Bundy researcher, he said, oh, yeah,
Speaker 5: I know Hank's. Well it's a great place. And he said,
Speaker 5: there there's a Bavarian restaurant. They're the location, like right there,
Speaker 5: there's a Bavarian resta. There was a Bavarian restaurant where
Speaker 5: Bundy met his cousin John Call and had dinner there
Speaker 5: with him right after the Kathy Parks murder. And so
Speaker 5: that's something that he discovered for one of his you know,
Speaker 5: research things. But Bundy knew that area well. He was
Speaker 5: all over and if you look at the distance he
Speaker 5: was from, like Hanks and where Top of the Ocean
Speaker 5: restaurant was, that's that's the name of the place that
Speaker 5: was the Landmark restaurant. And then where Bundy's parents lived.
Speaker 5: I mean, they're just not that far from each other.
Speaker 5: So again he's honey near to where his parents live.
Speaker 5: And you know he's driving this car. Where he got
Speaker 5: this car? I have no idea, But again, he borrow
Speaker 5: a lot of cars. So there's cars out there with
Speaker 5: probably not now they're probably in junkyards, but traces of
Speaker 5: you know, maybe air or whatever, maybe a splotch of
Speaker 5: blood down the weather felt on the window or whatever,
Speaker 5: who knows. I mean, it's out there. And so these
Speaker 5: testimonies they just keep coming forth, and boy, some of
Speaker 5: them don't have the ring of truth and others do.
Speaker 5: And you just talk to them and ask them more questions,
Speaker 5: and it just confirms that they were indeed and they
Speaker 5: indeed had an encounter with Ted Bundy.
Speaker 8: Let's use this as an opportunity to stop for a
Speaker 8: second for these messages Lucky.
Speaker 1: Land Casino, asking people what's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky?
Speaker 5: Lucky?
Speaker 2: In line at the Delhi I guess ah, in my
Speaker 2: dentist's office more than once.
Speaker 3: Actually do I have to say?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 5: You do?
Speaker 3: In the car before my kid's PTA meeting.
Speaker 6: Really yes, excuse me, what's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky?
Speaker 5: I never win?
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Speaker 8: Now in this book, what we haven't spoken about is
Speaker 8: you had just talked mentioned Kathy Parks. But in this
Speaker 8: book you have an interesting transcript of the biographical memorial
Speaker 8: of Kathy Parks nineteen fifty four to nineteen seventy four,
Speaker 8: and you've included her story in the Ted Bundy's Murderous Mysteries.
Speaker 8: But this is a memorial written by her grandfather, Charles
Speaker 8: Parks Senior, and it was completed in October nineteen seventy five,
Speaker 8: just as Bundy was about to become a serious suspect
Speaker 8: in the case. And so her parents were Chas Junior
Speaker 8: and Catherine, and so he goes through the whole thing,
Speaker 8: the abduction. But it's very interesting some of the information
Speaker 8: that he has at that time and that he's included
Speaker 8: in this memorial which includes the abduction, but it includes
Speaker 8: also her life. What did you get from this memorial
Speaker 8: and why did you include it? Why was it so
Speaker 8: interesting to include in this point?
Speaker 5: Well, yes, you know it was interesting when I was
Speaker 5: writing the Bundy Murders. I got a tremendous amount of
Speaker 5: files from the King County Archives and I started to
Speaker 5: read that and I thought, wow, this is really something.
Speaker 5: You could imagine this grieving grandfather taking the time to
Speaker 5: write this stuff. And as you say, it was completed
Speaker 5: in like October nineteen seventy five, so that was the
Speaker 5: month that Bundy was just about to be revealed. And
Speaker 5: I always thought it was just very you know, it
Speaker 5: just it just had a lot to it. And it
Speaker 5: came out of a file that and I put this
Speaker 5: in the book the Journal. If anybody wants to see
Speaker 5: it themselves or have a copy, you can obtain this.
Speaker 5: I think got box thirty four and something, maybe that
Speaker 5: file thirteen and something like that. But I looked at
Speaker 5: it and I thought, you know, this is really something.
Speaker 5: You never see this sort of thing in a homicide
Speaker 5: investigation investigative file. And once he had done he had
Speaker 5: written this, and he had basically written it for his family,
Speaker 5: but he wanted them to have a copy of it
Speaker 5: as well, and so they put it in the file.
Speaker 5: And I think the trailer ted Bundy Eye alluded to it,
Speaker 5: and I put a very little portion of like I
Speaker 5: think the first page, and then I elaborated on another
Speaker 5: aspect of it in one of the other things, because
Speaker 5: it impressed me so much, and even though there's a
Speaker 5: few tiny minor mistakes, it's surprising that it's so accurate.
Speaker 5: And so wherever there's like these little clubs or whatever,
Speaker 5: I clear that up in a thing called author's note,
Speaker 5: and then I clear it out. But to have this
Speaker 5: thing put together by him, where his family had dealt
Speaker 5: a lot with the investigator Harrison from OSU, from the
Speaker 5: school from which he disappeared and other investigators, they were grateful,
Speaker 5: and so we wanted to put this together because of
Speaker 5: such a loss, losing her at such a young age.
Speaker 5: And you know, I just thought people have asked about it,
Speaker 5: people seem to be interested in it. And then when
Speaker 5: I got to reading the personal letters, because I put
Speaker 5: letters of Kathy's in some of my previous books, including
Speaker 5: the Bundy Murders, and in fact, I think it dead
Speaker 5: by these murders mysteries, I put quite a bit. But
Speaker 5: for this thing, he adds a lot of letters between
Speaker 5: well a number of letters between Kathy and her dad
Speaker 5: and other people, and the things she's written and you know,
Speaker 5: he doesn't pull any punches, and he talks about one
Speaker 5: point he said, you know, I just feel like I
Speaker 5: never really knew my granddaughter. And he also talked about
Speaker 5: how she had all these dreams, but his main concern
Speaker 5: was was like, well, how are you going to support yourself?
Speaker 5: So it talks about the good things, that talks about
Speaker 5: the bad. But I thought, you know, most people are
Speaker 5: never going to see that. Yes, and it's so touching
Speaker 5: really to me because this guy's long dead, but I
Speaker 5: thought that should include it because it is a rare bird.
Speaker 5: I've never encountered anything so personal in an investigative file,
Speaker 5: and I've looked a lot of my guarantee it not
Speaker 5: just about Bundy but other people. I've never seen any
Speaker 5: kind of memorial like this ever, and I just think
Speaker 5: it was very unique. So I want to do included
Speaker 5: in this book. And I believe I made the right
Speaker 5: decision because it's very interesting to read because as you
Speaker 5: read it, you're almost feeling the agony of the Park's
Speaker 5: family and you just have to sympathize with them, and
Speaker 5: it's I'm sure it was a catharist. It was cathartic
Speaker 5: for him to do it. And it was important to
Speaker 5: do it. And he said something at the end, and
Speaker 5: this was basically again for the Park's family. He said,
Speaker 5: you know, like I'm going to paraphrase here, he said,
Speaker 5: you couldn't visit her anytime, just by calling her up
Speaker 5: in your memory. And that's true, that's one thing that
Speaker 5: you can do. So it's just very sad on the
Speaker 5: one hand. On the other and it's heartwarming. But it's
Speaker 5: one of those things that I think that we talk
Speaker 5: a lot about the Gay File. We show a lot
Speaker 5: of things from the detectives, and I wanted to show
Speaker 5: something that was so incredibly import to the Parks family
Speaker 5: that the grandfather completed. I just think it was worthy
Speaker 5: for the rest of the world to see it as well.
Speaker 8: It's also it repeats the story that you've told before
Speaker 8: that when she went missing. Of course they had no
Speaker 8: idea that it just could be the work of a
Speaker 8: serial killer. But her father experienced a massive heart attack
Speaker 8: that same day, so the mother was instructed to not
Speaker 8: tell the father that the doctor was missing. And you
Speaker 8: just have an incredible disadvantage.
Speaker 5: I'll not disadvantage.
Speaker 8: Just a horrible scene, that confluence of a disastrous confluence
Speaker 8: of events that happened right to start, and of course
Speaker 8: they don't know for a while, and the usual people
Speaker 8: are suspected, the boyfriend, and so it takes a while.
Speaker 8: And then as the grandfather writes that her, her body
Speaker 8: and bones are found among the other bodies as well.
Speaker 8: So it is just talking about the discovery and as
Speaker 8: you say, ted as a suspect in these cases and
Speaker 8: unwearth of people, missing women and young girls.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, when I wrote The Bundy Murders, I
Speaker 5: talked about how kad They got a call that morning
Speaker 5: from her sister, Sharon Taylor that her dad had a
Speaker 5: heart attack, and Sharon said, don't leave school. We'll keep
Speaker 5: you updated on his progress. And then they contacted her
Speaker 5: later that afternoon. He said he's doing better. It was
Speaker 5: apparently a mild heart attack, and so you know, and
Speaker 5: she and then of course it was inevitable because she
Speaker 5: loved to take her internal strolls, and you know, Bundy
Speaker 5: ended up in counting her in the cafeteria after eleven
Speaker 5: pm and then could go with him and that was it.
Speaker 5: But yeah, it's very sad, you know if you look
Speaker 5: at something similar to that. So you're the poor father,
Speaker 5: they're not telling him right away because they don't really
Speaker 5: have another heart attack. Dean Kent was an executive with
Speaker 5: an oil company and he had had suffered a serious
Speaker 5: heart attack. And the first night he went out to
Speaker 5: do something was when his daughter Debbie invited them to
Speaker 5: come see the play at High and so, and that
Speaker 5: he had just that was his first night out. And
Speaker 5: you know what's weird. I've often said this, and I've
Speaker 5: said this in some of the companion bums. Very often
Speaker 5: things happen by chance. I say things like, what if
Speaker 5: women Kodowski's children would have accompanied Karen all the way
Speaker 5: to the room, which they wanted to do, right but
Speaker 5: they but she said no one and send him back
Speaker 5: after she reached the elevator. But he wouldn't have been
Speaker 5: able to kidnap her with a Donna Manson took another
Speaker 5: route or whatever. These things happened by chance, and and
Speaker 5: by chance, that very night, the play didn't get started
Speaker 5: on time. He was supposed to end a ten ten pm,
Speaker 5: but it didn't get started on time, and it ran
Speaker 5: over because Debbie's brother was at the roller Rake and
Speaker 5: was told he'd be picked up at ted and they
Speaker 5: called the roller Rake, but they wouldn't let him talk
Speaker 5: to him or you know, pass off a message. For
Speaker 5: some strange reason, she had go getting they were gonna
Speaker 5: go Jeason, No you haven't seen the play. I'll do
Speaker 5: it of course. Then she disappeared. But all of these
Speaker 5: things happen by chance. And like if the play would
Speaker 5: have started on and ended on, we would never even
Speaker 5: known the name of Debbie Kant. Yeah, it's odd. It's odd,
Speaker 5: isn't it.
Speaker 8: Yes, Well, as you say, Ted Bundy was also had
Speaker 8: distinct mo but he also was a opportunist.
Speaker 5: Yes, I'm going to thank you.
Speaker 8: I'm want to thank you very much Kevin for coming
Speaker 8: on and talking about your latest Ted Bundy the Yearly Journal,
Speaker 8: Kevin M. Sullivan. For those that might want to take
Speaker 8: a look at it, is there an Amazon page and
Speaker 8: I know this is a wild blue press release, So
Speaker 8: tell us how they might take a look more information website,
Speaker 8: Facebook page, et cetera.
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's two places where you could go if you
Speaker 5: want to like do a little reading of it. See,
Speaker 5: you can always go to Amazon and you'll you'll you'll
Speaker 5: find the book there and it'll have a look inside
Speaker 5: and then you can just kind of click on that
Speaker 5: and you can read some of it, and they always
Speaker 5: let people do that with small portions of the book. Yes,
Speaker 5: you can see all my books there, or if you
Speaker 5: want to go to the Wildlood Press, you can also
Speaker 5: go there and click on my name, and they have
Speaker 5: almost all of my books listed. And I write two
Speaker 5: prim blogs and you can go back at it back
Speaker 5: and you go to Amazon. My blogs are listed down
Speaker 5: there and you can click on from Amazon on any
Speaker 5: one of these blogs I've written and it'll take you
Speaker 5: over a Wildlood Press. So those are the two locations
Speaker 5: where you can find that information about me.
Speaker 8: I want to thank you very much.
Speaker 5: Kevin M.
Speaker 8: Sullivan, Ted Bundy, the Yearly Journal, thank you so much.
Speaker 8: You have a great evening and we'll be talking to
Speaker 8: you soon. I'm sure.
Speaker 5: Hey, thanks Dan, We'll take it all right. Bye Bye.
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