Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
Speaker 1: Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to dive right
Speaker 1: back in to the Kathy Ruemler conversation with Congress. Question
Speaker 1: by mister Lynch, Okay, did mister Epstein ever talk to
Speaker 1: you about the nature of his dealings with mister Black? Answer?
Speaker 1: I understood they had a business relationship, but I didn't
Speaker 1: know any more details than that, mister Lynch. Yeah, what
Speaker 1: in any particular business rumler, No, I didn't understand the
Speaker 1: details of the business relationship. Question Were you ever aware
Speaker 1: of any abuse allegations against mister Black? Answer? No, not
Speaker 1: that I can. I know there has been some litigation subsequently,
Speaker 1: meaning you know, after Epstein, you know, died. In more
Speaker 1: recent years, there has been mister Black's been involved in
Speaker 1: some civil litigation. I'm aware of that, mister Lynch. What
Speaker 1: about affairs? Were you ever ever aware of mister Black
Speaker 1: being involved in any affairs? Answer? I don't remember at
Speaker 1: the time. I know there have been allegations again in
Speaker 1: the media covering civil lawsuits or civil lawsuits that a
Speaker 1: legend affair. Question I see, And were you ever aware
Speaker 1: of mister Black requiring women to sign non disclosure agreements
Speaker 1: in connection with any of that litigation. Answer. I didn't
Speaker 1: have knowledge of that, mister Lynch. Okay, that's all I have. Question.
Speaker 1: Were you aware that Brad Karp was working with mister
Speaker 1: Black on any of the things Representative Lynch just described.
Speaker 1: Answer No, I knew that. I knew that mister Carp
Speaker 1: and mister Carp's law firm were the primary law firm
Speaker 1: for Apollo, and at the time mister Black was the
Speaker 1: CEO and chairman of Apollo, and in fact, Apollo referral
Speaker 1: that I referred to earlier, I recall came because Paul
Speaker 1: Weiss had a conflict on that particular on that particular matter,
Speaker 1: so there was an opportunity for another law firm to
Speaker 1: step in, whereas typically Paul Weiss was handling most of
Speaker 1: Apolo's matters redacted. Thank you. That concludes our hour. We'll
Speaker 1: go off the air, mister Grant. We'll go back on
Speaker 1: the record. It's fifty five, and I believe mister Biggs
Speaker 1: has some questions. Mister Biggs, I do, thank you so much,
Speaker 1: and so I just want to clarify some things to
Speaker 1: make sure I understood them. Rooumler. Sure, question you mentioned
Speaker 1: that you knew mister Epstein had a girlfriend. She looked
Speaker 1: about thirty and her name was Crenia Roumler. Yeah. Question
Speaker 1: and how did you know of his relationship with her? Answer?
Speaker 1: I met her on a couple of occasions, and he
Speaker 1: introduced her as his girlfriend and referred to her, you
Speaker 1: know from time to time, you know, general passing as
Speaker 1: in a way that someone the way that someone refers
Speaker 1: to their significant other, you know, Crinia and I you know,
Speaker 1: went to you know this thing or that thing. Question
Speaker 1: and you mentioned Darren Endyke. Did you know Darren Endyke
Speaker 1: previous to the twenty nineteen indictment of mister Epstein. Roumler, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I had met mister Endyke once in person. Biggs, did
Speaker 1: you know he was mister Epstein for lack of a
Speaker 1: better term, maybe his criminal defense attorney or someone that
Speaker 1: mister Epstein had retained made maybe even before the twenty
Speaker 1: nineteen indictment. Answer. I understood mister Endyke to play a
Speaker 1: different role for Epstein. I understood that mister Biggs a
Speaker 1: different role from what answer. I did not understand mister
Speaker 1: Indyke to be a criminal defense attorney. Biggs okay. Question
Speaker 1: I understood him to be his in house counsel who
Speaker 1: actually worked more onlike business contracts, you know, those types
Speaker 1: of things. Question, So, were you surprised that, ostensibly it
Speaker 1: sounds like a commercial transaction attorney was putting together a
Speaker 1: defense team for mister Ebstein. Answer, well, I understood that
Speaker 1: he was his legal He was one of his legal advisors.
Speaker 1: But unlike the other legal representatives, the other lawyers who
Speaker 1: had who you know, had multiple other clients. My understanding
Speaker 1: is that mister Ebstein was mister Indyke's only client. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was like Tom Hagen. Remember in The Godfather, Tom
Speaker 1: Hagen had one client, samwood in Dyke. The only difference
Speaker 1: is Tom Hagen was actually a good lawyer. Mister Biggs,
Speaker 1: would you say he was in house? Answer right? Question okay. Answer,
Speaker 1: that's the way I thought about it and understood it.
Speaker 1: Question okay, And so you received a call, I believe,
Speaker 1: from mister Epstein informing you that he'd been indicted on
Speaker 1: perhaps the day that he was that the indictment was announced. Well,
Speaker 1: not exactly the sequence as I remember it is that
Speaker 1: he called me to tell me that he'd been arrested.
Speaker 1: Question Okay, answer, but the indictment was which would have
Speaker 1: been just mechanically what happens in general practice. I'm not
Speaker 1: talking about specifics, but from my experience as a prosecutor,
Speaker 1: an indictment is returned from the grand jury to a court,
Speaker 1: and then an arrest warrant is issued. So that's what
Speaker 1: I assumed that happened there, and then the indictment itself
Speaker 1: was unsealed and made public upon the arraignment date. Question,
Speaker 1: so did you hear from him that he had been
Speaker 1: arrested Rumler on the day of his arrest? That was
Speaker 1: my understanding that he was arrested, and he called me
Speaker 1: and informed me that he had been arrested. Did question?
Speaker 1: And if I remember your testimony right, it was a
Speaker 1: short conversation. He informed you that he had been arrested,
Speaker 1: and you basically told him to call his lawyer Rumler. Yeah. Question,
Speaker 1: it seems were you interested at all and why you
Speaker 1: would have called you to tell you that he was arrested. Answer?
Speaker 1: It didn't surprise me, because again I knew him, and
Speaker 1: I was, you know, quite a well known defense attorney,
Speaker 1: and I think he thought that I was a good lawyer,
Speaker 1: and I think so in that regard. I guess I
Speaker 1: wasn't surprised. I know if I had been if I
Speaker 1: had been like a tax attorney and he called me,
Speaker 1: that would have been a bit more surprising. But given
Speaker 1: the nature of my practice, it didn't really surprise me. Question.
Speaker 1: But he didn't request that you provide any kind of
Speaker 1: counsel or advice at all. I know that when I
Speaker 1: practiced as a defense attorney, almost everybody asked for a
Speaker 1: little bit of advice when they would call Ms. Rumler.
Speaker 1: I'm very familiar with that question. Yeah, so kind of.
Speaker 1: I was surprised when you testified. Oh, he just said, hey,
Speaker 1: I got arrested, and you said, call your attorney Rumner. Yeah. Question.
Speaker 1: I'm curious to know what more might have been said,
Speaker 1: if anything. Answer Again to my recollection, it was a
Speaker 1: very short call, and he seemed to me to be
Speaker 1: in a state of shock, and I was shocked. I was,
Speaker 1: you know, stunned and didn't understand, you know, what the
Speaker 1: guy could possibly have been arrested for. Again, just you know,
Speaker 1: based on my understanding. Questions, So he didn't tell you
Speaker 1: what the allegations was, where the charge was answer, I
Speaker 1: don't believe he did. And I'm not sure that he
Speaker 1: knew at the time. I'm not sure how much he
Speaker 1: was told because again, you know, the arrest would typically
Speaker 1: be executed by you know, the agents, the FBI agents,
Speaker 1: and in my experience, they don't really get into great
Speaker 1: detail about, you know, what the indictment says or anything
Speaker 1: like that. Question. Did he reveal whether he'd already talked
Speaker 1: to mister Endyke before he called you? Answer? I don't
Speaker 1: remember whether he did or not. In my mind when
Speaker 1: I said you should call your lawyer, I was not
Speaker 1: thinking about Darren Endyke as a person he should call.
Speaker 1: I was thinking he should call his defense attorney. Question,
Speaker 1: so he had a different defense attorney answer he did? Question?
Speaker 1: And who was that answer? Martin Weinberg? Question? And do
Speaker 1: you know if he had reached out to Martin Weinberg
Speaker 1: before he called you? Answer? I don't know. Question, And
Speaker 1: I guess I'll just leave that alone. I just have
Speaker 1: one more area. I wrote down just a few adjectives
Speaker 1: you used to describe mister Epstein earlier today. Extremely arrogant?
Speaker 1: Did I get that right? Miss Rumner? Yeah? Question? Okay,
Speaker 1: a buncular Miss Ruemner, Yeah. Question, which is not a
Speaker 1: term we usually hear around this table, but I thought
Speaker 1: it was interesting and you said that he was I
Speaker 1: don't know if you used the term in veterate, but
Speaker 1: you implied he's a mans plainer. Rumler, he was a
Speaker 1: man's plainer. Indeed, question okay, without asking you what a
Speaker 1: man's plainer is, I'll leave that one alone. It makes
Speaker 1: me wonder if you could And this is not a
Speaker 1: question that is unique to you. This is a question
Speaker 1: that has been asked to many of the witnesses wh
Speaker 1: knew him or work with him. Do you think that
Speaker 1: mister Epstein, you knew him the way you described him,
Speaker 1: is the kind of man who would have ended up
Speaker 1: killing himself, Miss Rumler, I believe he killed himself, mister Biggs,
Speaker 1: So that's a yes, Miss Rumler. Yeah, I believe he
Speaker 1: killed himself. I don't know that I can shed a
Speaker 1: lot of light on whether he's the type of person
Speaker 1: who would kill himself, but I believe that he killed himself.
Speaker 1: Question So, okay, I'm not asking for a psychological profile here,
Speaker 1: just you know, just you then, were not surprised to
Speaker 1: hear that the unvuncular Epstein had killed himself. Roumler I
Speaker 1: was very surprised, Biggs. You were surprised, Rumler, I was
Speaker 1: very surprised. And when I learned when I learned the news,
Speaker 1: one of the first thoughts I had was how in
Speaker 1: the world would he know how to do that? So,
Speaker 1: you know that that came to my mind. And of course,
Speaker 1: given you know, my experience in the Justice Department and
Speaker 1: when I was a principal associate Deputy Attorney General, you know,
Speaker 1: people would call that the pad dag. When I was
Speaker 1: a pad dag, the Bureau of Prisons, you know, fell
Speaker 1: under the dag. The Deputy Attorney General's office a super
Speaker 1: and you know, the primary responsibility of the Bureau of Prisons,
Speaker 1: the federal Bureau of Prisons, is to keep the community
Speaker 1: safe and keep the inmates safe. And obviously, for someone
Speaker 1: at the time with mister Epstein's profile to have been
Speaker 1: in a situation where he could kill himself was a massive,
Speaker 1: massive failure at the Bureau of Prisons. Question, Uh huh.
Speaker 1: You haven't looked at any any report or anything like that,
Speaker 1: the post mortem or anything like that, Rumler, I haven't,
Speaker 1: other than what I've read in terms of media coverage
Speaker 1: of those reports. But I haven't read. I believe the
Speaker 1: Inspector General did a report around the circumstances of Epstein's suicide,
Speaker 1: and I have not read that question absolutely, last question,
Speaker 1: because I want to make sure I get this right.
Speaker 1: Were you the first person that he called the day
Speaker 1: he was arrested for the charges? Rumler? I don't know, Biggs. Okay,
Speaker 1: thank you for letting me take time. Mister Grant, Yes, sir,
Speaker 1: question by mister Grant. Just to follow up a couple
Speaker 1: of things mister Biggs brought up. How did you hear
Speaker 1: the news that mister Epstein had killed himself? Answer? It
Speaker 1: popped up on my phone in a New York post.
Speaker 1: You know how you get those pop ups. Question So
Speaker 1: it wasn't from an associate of his or someone in
Speaker 1: his orbit? Answer no, I don't believe, so I learned
Speaker 1: through the media. Question did you discuss it with his
Speaker 1: death with anyone in his orbit or any of his associates? Answer? Well,
Speaker 1: in his orbit, I at some point discussed it with
Speaker 1: his lawyer. Question and that lawyer being answered mister Weinberg,
Speaker 1: and I certainly would have discussed it, discussed it with
Speaker 1: mister Carp because you know, mister Carp knew mister Epstein.
Speaker 1: I discussed the client that Epstein and I shared, Miss
Speaker 1: the Rothschild question and gets cut off by Rumler. So
Speaker 1: those are the ones I remember. I remember I may
Speaker 1: have discussed it. Biggs jumps in again. Could I ask
Speaker 1: there was a question I wanted to ask you with
Speaker 1: regard to Arianna, I believe to a Rothschild, and what
Speaker 1: was the extent of that relationship between mister Epstein and
Speaker 1: miss Rothschild, Miss Rumler? It was a business relationship as
Speaker 1: far as I observed, he was, you know, an adviser
Speaker 1: to her. Biggs, was he managing the money? Answer? I
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't not to my knowledge, but I
Speaker 1: wouldn't have any information about that one way or the other. Biggs,
Speaker 1: thank you. Mister Grant had to follow up on a
Speaker 1: previous point. You said that you discussed news of mister
Speaker 1: Epstein's death with his attorney, mister Rothchild and mister carp
Speaker 1: By discussed it with them. What do you mean by that?
Speaker 1: What was the discussion? Answer? Oh gosh, just an expression
Speaker 1: of shock. Shock. And all these events, the arrest, the indictment,
Speaker 1: the suicide were all quite shocking to me. And again
Speaker 1: this is someone who I knew and I had dealt with,
Speaker 1: and so it was quite surreal to be, you know.
Speaker 1: And again, the media coverage around Epstein's indictment in twenty
Speaker 1: nineteen was very extensive, and the idea that the Bureau
Speaker 1: of Prisons you know, could have been so negligent in
Speaker 1: a core duty to have allowed him to commit suicide
Speaker 1: was shocking and appalling to me. Mister Biggs, I have
Speaker 1: to go vote mister Fishman. Good luck with that. Ms. Rumler,
Speaker 1: thank you, Congressman, mister Biggs. Yes, thanks. All right, folks,
Speaker 1: we're gonna wrap up right here, and in the next
Speaker 1: episode dealing with the topic, we're gonna pick up where
Speaker 1: we left off. All the information that goes with this
Speaker 1: episode can be found in the description box.