1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: Imagine for just a second, stepping into a physical space 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:08,800 where the very air around you feels well inexplicably heavy. 3 00:00:08,919 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, like there's a weight to it. 4 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:14,599 Speaker 1: Exactly. You're standing on dirt or maybe these worn cobblestones, 5 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,679 looking down at the ground beneath your feet, and you 6 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,839 realize with the sudden chilling clarity that these exact spones 7 00:00:21,879 --> 00:00:26,079 have witnessed the absolute extremes of human existence. 8 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 2: The best and the worst, usually the worst. 9 00:00:28,079 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: Right, They've absorbed the echoes of unimaginable cruelty, profound tragedy, 10 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:34,640 and desperate resilience. And you look around and there are 11 00:00:34,719 --> 00:00:37,079 hundreds of other people standing there right alongside you. 12 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 2: Taking pictures, holding water bottles. 13 00:00:39,079 --> 00:00:41,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, they've got cameras in hand, maybe a snack, and 14 00:00:41,719 --> 00:00:43,960 they've all paid an admission fee to walk through a 15 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:48,479 site of historical horror, which begs a deeply unsettling. 16 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:49,200 Speaker 2: Question, Why do we do it? 17 00:00:49,399 --> 00:00:53,399 Speaker 1: Exactly? Why are away as a species so irresistibly drawn 18 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:56,520 to the darkest, most macabre chapters of our own history? 19 00:00:57,079 --> 00:00:59,960 What is it about death, disaster and suffering that make 20 00:01:00,119 --> 00:01:02,000 this want to buy a ticket, stand in line and 21 00:01:02,079 --> 00:01:02,520 just take a. 22 00:01:02,479 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 2: Tour This huge industry too. 23 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,359 Speaker 1: It really is welcome to thrilling threads. I am so 24 00:01:07,519 --> 00:01:10,239 incredibly glad you could join us today because the journey 25 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:13,200 we're embarking on forces us to look really closely at 26 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:16,680 the shadows of human nature. Our mission for today's discussion 27 00:01:16,799 --> 00:01:20,760 is to pull at the complex, deeply tangled threads of 28 00:01:20,799 --> 00:01:23,200 this fascinating global phenomenon. 29 00:01:23,239 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 2: It truly is global. 30 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an industry built entirely on tragedy. Today we 31 00:01:27,799 --> 00:01:30,280 are unraveling the intricacies of dark tourism. 32 00:01:30,359 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 2: It's a profound topic. Yeah, And looking through the comprehensive 33 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:35,840 dossi and all the transcripts we pulled together for today, 34 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:39,319 it's pretty clear we're in for a heavy but vital conversation. 35 00:01:39,439 --> 00:01:40,159 Speaker 1: Oh absolutely. 36 00:01:40,239 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 2: We're going to be traveling all over the map exploring 37 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,000 ten distinct global tourist attractions. And I want to be clear. 38 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,959 These aren't your typical sunny vacation spots where you lounge 39 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:49,560 by a pool. 40 00:01:49,719 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: Definitely not. 41 00:01:50,519 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 2: No, these are destinations built on incredibly dark, bloody and 42 00:01:54,719 --> 00:01:58,840 thoroughly Macaw's histories. We'll be sweeping across multiple continents and 43 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:04,799 centuries at everything from ancient monumental arenas to modern day 44 00:02:04,799 --> 00:02:06,439 and nuclear exclusion zones. 45 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 1: And I think it's important to set the tone right 46 00:02:09,199 --> 00:02:12,520 up front for you listening. Our goal today isn't to 47 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,240 sit on a high horse and pass judgment on the 48 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:16,560 tourists to visit these. 49 00:02:16,439 --> 00:02:19,759 Speaker 2: Sites right, or to take sides on the politically charged 50 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:23,840 atrocities that happen there. We have to be completely impartial. 51 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:27,639 Speaker 1: We are just acting as your guides to the facts 52 00:02:27,719 --> 00:02:31,680 and the profound psychological puzzles these places present. We're taking 53 00:02:31,719 --> 00:02:35,080 no sides. We're just exploring the human condition through the 54 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:35,960 sources we've. 55 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:37,599 Speaker 2: Gathered, which is the best way to approach it. 56 00:02:37,879 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: So I think the best place to start is with 57 00:02:40,319 --> 00:02:43,360 a location that is universally beloved. I mean, it's on 58 00:02:43,479 --> 00:02:45,520 almost everyone's travel bucket list. 59 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:46,719 Speaker 2: I think you know where you're going. 60 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: We're heading back to antiquity, specifically to Rome and the 61 00:02:50,479 --> 00:02:52,000 iconic Colisseum a classic. 62 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 2: Millions of tourists visit that Amphitheater every single year. 63 00:02:56,039 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: Right it's recognized as one of the new Seven Wonders 64 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:03,639 of the World. Stands as this triumphant monument of ancient engineering. 65 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:06,759 But here is where the disconnect happens and where the 66 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:10,800 concept of dark tourism really begins to take shape. 67 00:03:10,479 --> 00:03:12,479 Speaker 2: Because of what actually happened inside. 68 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: Yes, this was a place where an incredibly advanced civilized 69 00:03:17,319 --> 00:03:21,560 culture poured staggering amounts of wealth into engineering spectacles of 70 00:03:21,599 --> 00:03:23,639 death purely for entertainment. 71 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 2: The sheer scale of it, the meticulous organization of that brutality, 72 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:30,479 is what always catches me off guard when reading the. 73 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,039 Speaker 1: Historical acaut gests so systematic. 74 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 2: It is when you look at the daily schedule of 75 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,400 the coliseum I mentioned in our sources, it reads almost 76 00:03:38,439 --> 00:03:41,919 like a modern festival lineup, but with this horrific twist, like. 77 00:03:41,879 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: A schedule of events for a concert. 78 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,479 Speaker 2: Exactly so, in the morning the crowds were treated to 79 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,199 the wild beast shows. They would import exotic animals from 80 00:03:50,199 --> 00:03:54,080 cross the entire empire, lions, bears, elephants. 81 00:03:53,759 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: Just massive logistical efforts to get them there just. 82 00:03:56,319 --> 00:03:59,439 Speaker 2: To be slaughtered or slaughter prisoners. And then right around 83 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:01,000 lunchtime the schedule. 84 00:04:00,599 --> 00:04:02,879 Speaker 1: Shifted lunchtime execution right off. 85 00:04:02,719 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 2: In crucifixions, and finally in the afternoon they presented the 86 00:04:06,159 --> 00:04:10,400 main event, the peace to resistance flattiatorial combat two men 87 00:04:10,639 --> 00:04:14,360 fighting to the absolute death. It forces us to ask 88 00:04:14,639 --> 00:04:18,639 what it actually says about a society when they structure 89 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,120 public executions with the same logistical care that we might 90 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,439 apply to like a Super Bowl halftime show. 91 00:04:24,519 --> 00:04:26,639 Speaker 1: It's hard to even wrap your head around that level 92 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:28,120 of normalized violence. 93 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,639 Speaker 2: It wasn't hidden away in some dark dungeon either. It 94 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,759 was the bright, beating heart of Roman life. 95 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 1: You have to picture the magnitude of it. Fifty thousand 96 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:40,839 Romans packed into those seats, watching every single movement of 97 00:04:40,879 --> 00:04:44,600 a sword, collectively willing a fighter to deliver a killing blow. 98 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 2: The noise must have been deafening. 99 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 1: And imagine standing in the center of that arena today 100 00:04:48,759 --> 00:04:52,279 as a tourist. You're standing where men literally bled into 101 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,240 the sand while tens of thousands of people cheered for 102 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:55,879 their demise. 103 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:56,639 Speaker 2: It's surreal. 104 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: And what's wild is that this arena was just a 105 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:02,040 normal part of their urban infrastructure. There were open air 106 00:05:02,079 --> 00:05:04,439 markets right alongside these brutal contests. 107 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:06,439 Speaker 2: You can grab lunch and then go watch someone die. 108 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:10,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, and today you have modern tourists wandering around in 109 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,560 the sunshine, snapping selfies with a gelato in hand, standing 110 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,399 on the exact same ground that was explicitly designed as 111 00:05:16,439 --> 00:05:17,519 an execution chamber. 112 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,519 Speaker 2: It feels like the grim reality is totally lost on 113 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,439 people today. It's completely sanitized by time. 114 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:26,399 Speaker 1: Sanitized by time. That's a great way to put it. 115 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 2: Well. I actually think that sanitization is the fundamental engine 116 00:05:31,079 --> 00:05:35,120 of this specific brand of dark tourism. When an event 117 00:05:35,199 --> 00:05:38,800 is separated from us by two millennia, the visceral horror 118 00:05:38,879 --> 00:05:39,680 naturally fades. 119 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 1: You don't feel connected to it anymore. 120 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 2: Right, we aren't confronted with the smell and the blood 121 00:05:43,879 --> 00:05:48,360 or the screams. We're left with architectural awe and abstract history. 122 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,160 We admire the arches, the underground area. 123 00:05:50,959 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 1: Is Tepageum, right where they kept the animals exactly. 124 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,399 Speaker 2: We admire the engineering, but we distance ourselves from the 125 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,759 human agony. But that dynamic shifts dramatically when we look 126 00:05:59,759 --> 00:06:01,879 at sites where the history is a bit more recent, 127 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:04,399 even if it's still shrouded in the past. 128 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:05,959 Speaker 1: Oh, like the Tower of London. 129 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,439 Speaker 2: Yes, if you look at London and His Majesty's royal 130 00:06:09,519 --> 00:06:12,759 palace and fortress, you see a completely different kind of 131 00:06:12,759 --> 00:06:13,959 psychological engagement. 132 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 1: It sits right there along the River Thames, and while 133 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:19,920 it's been a royal residence and a treasury. I mean 134 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,279 it holds the crown jewels. Its massive appeal today doesn't 135 00:06:23,319 --> 00:06:24,000 come from the gold. 136 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 2: Not all the. 137 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:29,399 Speaker 1: Dark tourism appeal comes directly from its shadowy reputation as 138 00:06:29,519 --> 00:06:33,680 a near inescapable prison and a fearful place of execution. 139 00:06:33,959 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 2: And the details of those executions from our sources are 140 00:06:37,319 --> 00:06:38,480 incredibly grim. 141 00:06:38,639 --> 00:06:41,759 Speaker 1: They really are. The sentence most closely associated with the 142 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,680 Tower is beheading by acts carried out by a mass executioner. 143 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:49,639 But here's the historical tidbit from the dossier that really threw. 144 00:06:49,519 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 2: Me, the part about the executioners. 145 00:06:51,319 --> 00:06:54,959 Speaker 1: Yes, there weren't actually enough executions happening for anyone to 146 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,759 become a true polished expert at it. Being an executioner 147 00:06:58,879 --> 00:07:00,800 wasn't a high status for spected trade. 148 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:02,639 Speaker 2: It was a miserable, low status. 149 00:07:02,399 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: Job, right And because of that, the guys wielding the 150 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,920 axes were quite often very very drunk when they were 151 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:09,600 asked to perform their duties. 152 00:07:09,319 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 2: Which, as you could imagine, led to absolutely horrific outcomes. 153 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: I can't even imagine. 154 00:07:14,879 --> 00:07:17,519 Speaker 2: There are documented accounts where it took several strikes of 155 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,680 the acts to actually sever the head from the body. 156 00:07:20,759 --> 00:07:23,800 It wasn't the clean cinematic drop we tend to picture. 157 00:07:23,759 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: It was a messy, agonizing, unpolished reality exactly. 158 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:31,439 Speaker 2: Yet if you look at how the tower is marketed 159 00:07:31,439 --> 00:07:36,600 to tourists today, it's largely wrapped in this palatable supernatural lore. 160 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,000 The ghosts, the mystery, and the ghost stories are the 161 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,439 primary draw. The guides lean heavily into the tales of 162 00:07:43,439 --> 00:07:44,519 ghosts living within. 163 00:07:44,319 --> 00:07:46,519 Speaker 1: The walls like Anne Boleyn, Yes. 164 00:07:46,439 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 2: The stories of Amboleyn walking with her head tucked under 165 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,600 her arm, or the spirits of the two young princes 166 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:53,720 who were confined there by Rich of the Third and 167 00:07:53,759 --> 00:07:55,839 are assumed to have been murdered in the dead of night. 168 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: Right. Those tales of death and dismay are actively used 169 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,199 to enhance the tours, grim legend, and commercial appeal. 170 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:04,519 Speaker 2: Today they're selling the spooky factor. 171 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,279 Speaker 1: People are flocking there hoping to feel a chill in 172 00:08:07,279 --> 00:08:09,879 the air or see a shadow move in a dark corridor. 173 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:14,000 We take the genuine brutal suffering of historical figures like 174 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:17,680 those poor young princes or the victims of a drunken executioner, 175 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,000 and we turn it into a thrill. 176 00:08:19,839 --> 00:08:21,199 Speaker 2: Ride, a Halloween attraction. 177 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,519 Speaker 1: Basically, Yeah, but isn't there something a little strange about 178 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,480 preferring the ghost story over the historical reality. It's like 179 00:08:28,519 --> 00:08:31,040 we'd rather be scared by a phantom than confront the 180 00:08:31,079 --> 00:08:34,960 fact that a state government actively sanctioned chopping people's heads off. 181 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 2: That's a really sharp observation. The ghost story provides a buffer. 182 00:08:39,639 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: It softens the blow. 183 00:08:40,799 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 2: It turns real world tragedy into folklore, which is much 184 00:08:44,879 --> 00:08:48,759 easier to digest on a Tuesday afternoon vacation. And this 185 00:08:48,799 --> 00:08:52,559 actually transitions perfectly into our second theme, how we interact 186 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:53,799 with the architecture of the. 187 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:57,159 Speaker 1: Macabre, moving from the ghosts of the elite in London 188 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:59,879 to the physical remains of the masses in Paris. 189 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,399 Speaker 2: Exactly, if you descend into the catacombs of Paris, you 190 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:06,080 are looking at the ultimate macabre pilgrimage. 191 00:09:06,159 --> 00:09:07,559 Speaker 1: It's a subterranean secret. 192 00:09:07,759 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 2: We're talking about an underground ostuary where the number of 193 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:14,360 interred individuals is estimated to be over six million. 194 00:09:14,639 --> 00:09:17,759 Speaker 1: Six million people just stacked beneath the streets of one 195 00:09:17,799 --> 00:09:20,679 of the most romanticized beautiful cities on Earth. 196 00:09:20,759 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 2: It's a staggering contrast. 197 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: And what I found so striking was the historical utility 198 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,960 behind it all. It wasn't initially designed to be some 199 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:30,360 creepy tourist track. 200 00:09:30,519 --> 00:09:32,159 Speaker 2: No, it was a practical necessity. 201 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:36,759 Speaker 1: It was a purely practical, almost bureaucratic decision to stem 202 00:09:36,799 --> 00:09:41,559 the overflow from the city's rapidly filling cemeteries. They literally 203 00:09:41,759 --> 00:09:43,919 just ran out of room for the dead above ground. 204 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 2: There was a massive public health crisis, so they moved 205 00:09:46,279 --> 00:09:49,480 them into the old limestone quarries below the city. It 206 00:09:49,519 --> 00:09:51,200 was a civic engineering solution. 207 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: Yet today people descend into these burial sites seeking supernatural thrills, 208 00:09:57,159 --> 00:09:59,840 and the visual impact of the catacombs is so staggering 209 00:09:59,879 --> 00:10:01,960 the it almost defies human comprehension. 210 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:03,159 Speaker 2: The walls of bones. 211 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, when tourists visit, some of them simply refuse to 212 00:10:06,399 --> 00:10:09,399 believe that the bones are real. They look at these massive, 213 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:14,320 meticulously arranged piles of femurs and skulls spanning miles of punnels, 214 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:16,360 and their brains just rejected. 215 00:10:16,519 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 2: It's too overwhelming to process that each one of those 216 00:10:19,039 --> 00:10:21,919 skulls belong to a living, breathing Parisian I. 217 00:10:21,879 --> 00:10:25,559 Speaker 1: Can completely see why the mind would reject that reality. 218 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:28,519 When you see bones arranged in decorative patterns, hearts and 219 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:30,799 crosses made of skulls. It looks like a movie set. 220 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:35,519 Speaker 2: And speaking of movies, this specific location has massively fueled 221 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:37,480 modern pop culture horror. 222 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, you've got the two thousand and seven film 223 00:10:40,279 --> 00:10:43,960 literally titled Catacombs, and then the twenty fourteen found footage 224 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:46,200 horror movie as above, so below. 225 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 2: Both of those films centered their frights entirely on the 226 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,679 infamously creepy reputation of this underground. 227 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 1: The real life Catacombs have proven incredibly popular for tourists 228 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,720 who watch those movies and want to experience that cinematic 229 00:10:58,759 --> 00:10:59,840 dread in real. 230 00:10:59,639 --> 00:11:01,679 Speaker 2: Life that they want to be in the horror movie right. 231 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,399 Speaker 1: And local lore is always more than happy to provide 232 00:11:04,399 --> 00:11:04,840 that dread. 233 00:11:05,039 --> 00:11:07,919 Speaker 2: There is a fascinating local legend regarding the creation of 234 00:11:07,919 --> 00:11:11,960 the catacombs. The story goes that the very act of 235 00:11:12,039 --> 00:11:14,879 moving the bones of so many deceased people, disturbing their 236 00:11:14,879 --> 00:11:17,679 final resting places to pile them into these tunnels, unleashed 237 00:11:17,759 --> 00:11:21,960 a dark and malevolent force that still haunts the Catacombs today. 238 00:11:21,799 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: A curse. 239 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 2: Essentially sociologically speaking, it's a classic projection of collective guilt 240 00:11:26,759 --> 00:11:30,159 and existential fear. We disturb the dead. Therefore the dead 241 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:31,320 must be angry with us. 242 00:11:31,639 --> 00:11:33,919 Speaker 1: So I have to ask you, listening right now, would 243 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,879 you feel that heavy energy walking through those tunnels knowing 244 00:11:37,879 --> 00:11:40,399 that six million skeletons are surrounding you. 245 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 2: It's a heavy thought. 246 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: Are these intrepid adventurers waiting in line for hours truly 247 00:11:46,039 --> 00:11:48,960 seeking public health history or are they just looking for 248 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:50,879 that supernatural adrenaline rush. 249 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:55,639 Speaker 2: It's an incredibly thin line between historical curiosity and treating 250 00:11:55,639 --> 00:11:58,639 a mass grave like a haunted house attraction. It really is, 251 00:11:58,799 --> 00:12:01,159 and that boundary gets even lurier when we shift to 252 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:06,120 our third theme, incarceration, isolation, and infamy. Let's look at 253 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,279 how modern society treats its outcasts. 254 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: We're heading to California to Alcatraz Federal Penitentiary. 255 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 2: The Rock located on an isolated island in the San 256 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:19,879 Francisco Bay. It was famously designed to house America's absolute worst. 257 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,919 Speaker 1: Criminals, and today it operates as a highly popular museum. 258 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,600 Tourists routinely pay money bord a ferry and take guided 259 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:27,159 tours of the. 260 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 2: Cell blocks and the roster of inmates they house there 261 00:12:29,639 --> 00:12:30,399 is infamous. 262 00:12:30,519 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 1: It reads like a who's who of American crime lore. 263 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,679 You have al Capone machine gun, Kelly James, Whitey Bulger 264 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:39,799 and Robert Franklin Stroud, the Birdman. 265 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 2: Of Alcatraz, The Worst, the Worst. 266 00:12:42,039 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: There's a chilling quote from the source material regarding Stroud. 267 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:49,000 It's from an evaluation where the interviewer says, what's eating 268 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:49,759 you up inside? 269 00:12:49,759 --> 00:12:50,039 Speaker 2: Bob? 270 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,399 Speaker 1: You act as though you hate everyone in the world. 271 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 2: That paints a picture of intense psychological misery. 272 00:12:56,399 --> 00:12:59,799 Speaker 1: It does. The isolation was meant to break them, and 273 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,919 now we buy tickets, put on audio headsets and go 274 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:05,000 look at their tiny, miserable cages. 275 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 2: It's a profound commodification of human isolation. The current tourism 276 00:13:09,759 --> 00:13:14,279 industry around Alcatraz is fascinatingly complex. How so well. Its 277 00:13:14,279 --> 00:13:17,960 initial mythos was built entirely on its reputation of being escapeproof, 278 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:21,919 but today a significant part of its dark tourism appeal 279 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,519 is driven by rumors of ghosts. Ghosts again, Yes, the 280 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:28,000 ghosts of those who died in the skate attempts were 281 00:13:28,039 --> 00:13:30,679 the spears of men who went mad in solitary confinement. 282 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:32,840 It brings us right back to that recurring pattern we 283 00:13:32,879 --> 00:13:33,960 saw at the Tower of London. 284 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:35,639 Speaker 1: The supernatural wrapper. 285 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 2: Exactly why do we elevate these criminals who caused immense 286 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:43,559 suffering in the real world to a legendary, almost mythical 287 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:45,759 status by touring their cells. 288 00:13:45,879 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 1: Well, I actually want to analyze that mythos a bit. 289 00:13:48,799 --> 00:13:51,720 Are we really elevating them or are we just treating 290 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:52,840 them like zoo animals? 291 00:13:53,039 --> 00:13:53,799 Speaker 2: That's a fair question. 292 00:13:54,039 --> 00:13:56,919 Speaker 1: We take a mobster like al Capone, a man responsible 293 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:01,600 for incredible violence, and turn his prisons into a vacation stop. 294 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,559 We want to be close to the danger, but only 295 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:05,039 when it's. 296 00:14:04,919 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 2: Neutralized, a safe brush with danger, right. 297 00:14:07,759 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 1: We want to look at the cage to prove to 298 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,440 ourselves that the monsters are safely locked away in the past. 299 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 2: The neutralization of the threat is key there. But what 300 00:14:15,759 --> 00:14:19,240 happens when that desire to brush up against danger involves 301 00:14:19,279 --> 00:14:21,559 a wound that is still incredibly fresh. 302 00:14:21,799 --> 00:14:25,679 Speaker 1: Oh this leads us into theme four, Modern outlaws and 303 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:27,039 the commodification of crime. 304 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:31,039 Speaker 2: If Alcatraz represents criminals safely relegated to the past, our 305 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,159 next location is deeply uncomfortable because the scars are still 306 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:34,919 highly visible. 307 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,879 Speaker 1: I know exactly what you're talking about. Narcotourism in Medellin, Colombia. 308 00:14:38,679 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 2: Yes, specifically centered around the former properties and the legacy 309 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,639 of the infamous international criminal Pablo Escobar. 310 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: This one genuinely threw me in the research. It is bizarre. 311 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 2: It's wildly controversial. 312 00:14:51,639 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: There is a subset of tourism where guests actually visit 313 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,759 Escobar's former complex and engage in paintball contests. 314 00:14:57,799 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 2: It's hard to believe. 315 00:14:58,679 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: And they aren't just playing a standard game of paintball. 316 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:05,960 They are actively recreating bloody shootouts between Medellin cartel members 317 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:07,879 and armed DEA agents. 318 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,919 Speaker 2: It's the starkest example of cognitive dissonance in the entire 319 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:12,919 tourism industry. 320 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: It's just sheer disbelief. I mean, real people, innocent civilians, 321 00:15:17,559 --> 00:15:21,639 police officers, died in those exact conflicts, and tourists are 322 00:15:21,639 --> 00:15:24,320 flying in, putting on goggles and using it as a 323 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,559 theme for a weekend paintball game. It sounds so morbid 324 00:15:27,559 --> 00:15:28,399 and disrespectful. 325 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:32,159 Speaker 2: It does. But to understand how something this surreal happens, 326 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,279 we have to provide a grounded, impartial analysis of the 327 00:15:35,279 --> 00:15:38,639 conflicting narratives surrounding Escobar within Colombia itself. 328 00:15:38,759 --> 00:15:41,039 Speaker 1: Right, because it's not viewed the same way locally. 329 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:44,879 Speaker 2: It's exactly despite the immense violence of his drug empire, 330 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:50,000 Escobar holds a lingering reputation among the specific subset of 331 00:15:50,039 --> 00:15:53,639 the population as a mythical Robinhood. 332 00:15:53,159 --> 00:15:54,159 Speaker 1: A robin Hood figure. 333 00:15:54,279 --> 00:15:57,279 Speaker 2: Yes, during the height of his power, he used a 334 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:00,279 fraction of his illicit wealth to assist some of the 335 00:16:00,279 --> 00:16:04,320 poorest Colombians. He built housing developments in infrastructure that the 336 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:05,879 government had and provided. 337 00:16:05,919 --> 00:16:10,519 Speaker 1: So that context perfectly encapsulates the complicated feelings a local 338 00:16:10,639 --> 00:16:13,519 might have. If a man built the roof over your 339 00:16:13,559 --> 00:16:17,120 family's head, your view of him is going to be incredibly. 340 00:16:16,559 --> 00:16:18,639 Speaker 2: Complex, regardless of his immense crimes. 341 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: But for a tourist flying in from overseas just to 342 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:24,759 play cartel paintball, that is a massive ethical gray area. 343 00:16:24,799 --> 00:16:28,720 It's an objectively fascinating twentieth century crime story, but you 344 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:30,080 have to ponder the ethics. 345 00:16:30,679 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 2: Where is the line. 346 00:16:31,879 --> 00:16:34,759 Speaker 1: Exactly, where is the line between a fascinating history lesson 347 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,519 and a morbid, disrespectful reenactment. You're gamifying real world violence 348 00:16:39,519 --> 00:16:41,360 for vacationers who just take off their gear and go 349 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:42,600 back to their safe lives. 350 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 2: It's the privilege of distance. The tourist doesn't have to 351 00:16:45,519 --> 00:16:47,000 live with the generational trauma. 352 00:16:47,039 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: No they don't. 353 00:16:47,679 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 2: But that question of respect becomes even more urgent when 354 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,080 we shift from intentional criminal violence to our fifth theme, 355 00:16:54,879 --> 00:16:57,639 catastrophic systemic failures. 356 00:16:57,399 --> 00:16:59,919 Speaker 1: The invisible threats atomic tours. 357 00:17:00,399 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 2: We're talking about two of the most significant nuclear disasters 358 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:07,559 in human history, the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone in Pripiat, Ukraine. 359 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 1: And the Fukushima Daichi site in Okuma, Japan. 360 00:17:10,759 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 2: Let's start with Chernobyl because the cultural footprint of this 361 00:17:13,839 --> 00:17:15,079 site is massive. 362 00:17:15,279 --> 00:17:17,599 Speaker 1: Obviously, we need to note that currently the site is 363 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,119 closed due to the ongoing conflict in Ukraine. 364 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 2: Right, But previously it was a massive tourist draw, heavily 365 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:26,359 restricted due to lingering radiation. 366 00:17:26,279 --> 00:17:28,880 Speaker 1: And the reason it's so controlled is that invisible threat 367 00:17:29,519 --> 00:17:31,759 high levels of radiation remain in the soil. 368 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:35,599 Speaker 2: What is particularly revealing about Chernobyl's tourism is the profound 369 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:37,119 impact of media influence. 370 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 1: The power of television. 371 00:17:38,799 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 2: Yes, a widely acclaimed television mini series from twenty nineteen 372 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:46,559 contributed to a massive sudden uptick and travelers. Tour operators 373 00:17:46,559 --> 00:17:48,920 reported close to one hundred and fifty thousand visitors in 374 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:49,920 that year alone. 375 00:17:50,039 --> 00:17:52,880 Speaker 1: That is a staggering spike just because of a TV show. 376 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:57,279 Speaker 2: It demonstrates how popular culture can rapidly transform a site 377 00:17:57,319 --> 00:18:00,519 of profound tragedy into a trendy destination. 378 00:18:01,039 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 1: I was looking at the transcript from a documentary about 379 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,519 these tours, and there's a haunting quote. A tourist just 380 00:18:06,559 --> 00:18:09,799 casually asks the guide, are you here because of the fire? 381 00:18:10,319 --> 00:18:10,839 Speaker 2: Wow? 382 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 1: It really makes you extrapolate on the psychology of the visitor. 383 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,200 What draws someone to a place where the danger isn't 384 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,079 in the past, but invisibly present right now in the 385 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:20,880 soil and air. 386 00:18:21,319 --> 00:18:23,519 Speaker 2: You're walking through an active, hazardous. 387 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,640 Speaker 1: Environment, right And we see very similar dynamics operating in 388 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:30,279 Japan at the Fukushima Daichi site stemming from the twenty 389 00:18:30,279 --> 00:18:32,079 eleven Chuku earthquake and tsunami. 390 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 2: Yes, the tsunami directly caused the reactor meltdowns. Visiting this 391 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,720 site requires highly specialized criteria for these tours. 392 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,640 Speaker 1: The sensory details of those Fukushima tours from the sources 393 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:43,039 are incredibly chilling. 394 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:43,799 Speaker 2: Tell us about that. 395 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 1: Imagine sitting in a tour vehicle, driving down a quiet road. 396 00:18:47,319 --> 00:18:50,240 You enter the no go zone. The instruction given to 397 00:18:50,279 --> 00:18:54,680 the tourists is strict. You absolutely cannot open your windows. 398 00:18:54,279 --> 00:18:55,599 Speaker 2: Because of the airborne radiation. 399 00:18:56,079 --> 00:18:59,759 Speaker 1: Exactly if you roll down the window, the radiation will 400 00:18:59,759 --> 00:19:03,319 reach dangerous levels inside the vehicle. Can you imagine that 401 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:06,720 feeling looking through a pane of glass at a toxic town. 402 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 2: It's a very modern type of dread. If we synthesize 403 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:13,519 these two sites, Chernobyl and Fukushima, we see tour companies 404 00:19:13,559 --> 00:19:16,279 operating to show guests the aftermath and the clean up efforts. 405 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,839 Speaker 1: They are essentially exploring abandoned towns left frozen in time. 406 00:19:20,079 --> 00:19:22,920 Speaker 2: It's a profound meditation on the uncontrollable power of the 407 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:24,519 atomic forces we try to harness. 408 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,880 Speaker 1: It's deeply sobering, but as sobering as atomic disasters are. 409 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,359 The final area we're exploring today forces us to look 410 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,759 at the absolute darkest thread of human. 411 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 2: Behavior, the intentional destruction of human life. 412 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: Theme six memorializing the unimaginable. We have to discuss genocides 413 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:45,039 and massacres, and I want to start in Budapest, Hungary, 414 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,759 with a monument called the Shoes on the Danube Bank. 415 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:51,039 Speaker 2: This is a site that requires deep historical context. It 416 00:19:51,079 --> 00:19:53,400 serves as a tribute to the victims of the Aerocross 417 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:55,480 Party massacres during the World War II era. 418 00:19:55,799 --> 00:19:58,839 Speaker 1: Right, the Aarocross was a fascist Hungarian militia. 419 00:19:59,079 --> 00:20:02,039 Speaker 2: Yes, they would round up civilians, bring them to the 420 00:20:02,079 --> 00:20:04,920 banks of the freezing Danube River and order them to 421 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:06,799 step out of their shoes before being shot. 422 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: And the reasoning behind the shoes is horrific. They wanted 423 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,680 the victims to discard their footwear purely so the militia 424 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:14,160 could sell them on the black market. 425 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:18,079 Speaker 2: Today, sculptured iron replicas of these nineteen forty style shoes 426 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,039 lie scattered along the river bank, honoring the victims. 427 00:20:21,079 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: But here is where the absolute disrespect of some modern 428 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:26,359 tourists becomes infuriating. 429 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:27,319 Speaker 2: The defacement. 430 00:20:27,519 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 1: Yes, there are details in the source about clueless tourists 431 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:35,279 defacing this powerful monument in twenty twenty three, and in 432 00:20:35,279 --> 00:20:39,039 twenty fourteen thieves actually brought tools and tore away some 433 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:40,519 of the iron shoes to steal them. 434 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,400 Speaker 2: It shows a profound disconnect some tourists has zero connection 435 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:46,119 with the gravity of the sites they're visiting. 436 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,079 Speaker 1: They treat a mass grave like a photo op and. 437 00:20:49,039 --> 00:20:52,240 Speaker 2: That expectation of reverence is absolutely vital in discussing our 438 00:20:52,279 --> 00:20:56,119 next location. The killing fields in phenom Pen, Cambodia. 439 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,880 Speaker 1: This encompasses the chong Ek Genocidal Center and the Tools 440 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:01,079 Genocide Museum. 441 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 2: These are the physical remnants of Polepot's brutal totalitarian regime 442 00:21:06,039 --> 00:21:10,839 and the Khmer Rouge, resulting in nearly two million Cambodian. 443 00:21:10,279 --> 00:21:14,519 Speaker 1: Deaths two million people. The psychological horror of what the 444 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,680 Kimer Rouge implemented is almost too much to bear. 445 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 2: When you analyze the dystopian quotes from the sources, it's chilling. 446 00:21:22,079 --> 00:21:25,240 One central tenant stated, we must be like the ox 447 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:26,599 and have no thought except for the. 448 00:21:26,559 --> 00:21:29,400 Speaker 1: Party to have your humanity stripped away completely. 449 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 2: They even delved into this terrifying concept of a new 450 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,079 disease they called memory sickness. 451 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:34,880 Speaker 1: Memory sickness. 452 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,759 Speaker 2: Yes, it was a bad new disease diagnosed by the regime. 453 00:21:38,279 --> 00:21:41,079 The symptoms were simply thinking too much about life in 454 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:42,799 pre revolutionary Cambodia. 455 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 1: That is terrifying. Missing your past life. 456 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 2: Was a disease and punishable by death. 457 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 1: When tourists visit the Tool Slang Genocide Museum today, reverence 458 00:21:51,759 --> 00:21:54,960 is absolutely key here. This isn't entertainment, It's an intensely 459 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,440 powerful experience where survivor's stories are heard. It's a place 460 00:21:58,480 --> 00:21:59,240 for bearing. 461 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:03,559 Speaker 2: Witness, which to our final site today, perhaps the most 462 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:08,240 universally recognized site of dark tourism on Earth, the Auschwitz 463 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,359 Berkanau State Museum in Oshwishim, Poland. 464 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 1: The largest Nazi extermination camp, operating from nineteen forty to 465 00:22:14,759 --> 00:22:15,920 nineteen forty five. 466 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,400 Speaker 2: Where at least one point one million people were murdered. 467 00:22:18,839 --> 00:22:22,200 The historical preservation here details the grim presence of the 468 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:24,480 crematoriums and gas chambers. 469 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,279 Speaker 1: The sheer industrialization of death. 470 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,759 Speaker 2: It specifically notes that the massive ovens were specially developed 471 00:22:29,759 --> 00:22:33,119 by a German engineering company. It was the complete corporate 472 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:34,880 industrialization of death and. 473 00:22:34,839 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 1: The transition from Auschwitz first to the Birkenar extermination camp. 474 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,160 The Nazis built a vicious, sophisticated death machine. 475 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,799 Speaker 2: It forces us to ask about the ultimate purpose of 476 00:22:44,839 --> 00:22:46,720 this specific kind of dark tourism. 477 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,599 Speaker 1: Exactly unlike the paintball games in Medellin, this museum exists 478 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,799 to confront the bleakest, cruelest course of ourselves in the 479 00:22:53,839 --> 00:22:56,920 desperate hope that humanity never repeats such a gruesome event. 480 00:22:57,039 --> 00:23:00,680 It's a warning so synthesizing all these threads to from 481 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,000 the drunken executioners of the Tower of London to the 482 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:08,759 chilling silence of the Cambodian killing fields. Dark tourism forces 483 00:23:08,839 --> 00:23:10,160 us to look in the mirror. 484 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,759 Speaker 2: It really does. Are we seeking thrills, paying our respects? 485 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:16,319 Or are we just morbidly curious? 486 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 1: It leaves me with a final provocative thought for you listening. 487 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,519 If future generations, hundreds of years from now, were to 488 00:23:23,559 --> 00:23:27,599 turn our present day tragedies into tourist attractions, what would 489 00:23:27,599 --> 00:23:29,160 they build a visitor center around? 490 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 2: That's a profound thought. 491 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 1: And how would we feel about them buying souvenirs at 492 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,119 the sight of our greatest heartbreaks? 493 00:23:35,279 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 2: It strips away the comfort of history. 494 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: We want to know where you stand. Have you ever 495 00:23:39,799 --> 00:23:42,960 visited a site of dark tourism? Does stepping onto that 496 00:23:43,039 --> 00:23:45,519 ground change you? Or do you think these spaces should 497 00:23:45,519 --> 00:23:47,799 be left alone? Leave us a comment and tell us 498 00:23:47,839 --> 00:23:49,559 what you think about today's thrilling dreads.