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<v Speaker 1>Good evening, viewers, Thank you for tuning into the nonprofits

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<v Speaker 1>on this wonderful Friday night. Don't forget that immediately after

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<v Speaker 1>the Nonprofits tonight you can tune into Truth Wanted, hosted

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<v Speaker 1>by the wonderful resident geologists of the ACA, Kelly Laughlin,

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<v Speaker 1>and his special guest is going to be Dan excuse me,

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<v Speaker 1>it's going to be Chris Mallard from the dam Or

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<v Speaker 1>Daily Atheist morning show, so check that out. Also joining

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<v Speaker 1>them on backup is our own Eli Slack. And Eli

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<v Speaker 1>is here tonight to introduce an article to us about

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<v Speaker 1>belief and delusion? Do they have anything in common our

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<v Speaker 1>belief's delusions? Are religious people delusional?

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<v Speaker 2>Who knows?

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<v Speaker 1>We are going to dive into this topic? And Eli

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<v Speaker 1>take it away?

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you.

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<v Speaker 4>So. Although we often try to stress that religious people

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<v Speaker 4>aren't crazy for being religious, and that being religious is

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<v Speaker 4>not the same thing as being delusional, can the nature

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<v Speaker 4>of delusions give us some insight into the nature of beliefs?

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<v Speaker 4>Well to university professor claim that yes it can. In

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<v Speaker 4>an article summarizing their research, Connors and Halligan right that

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<v Speaker 4>when offered a stimulus, our brains naturally search for context

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<v Speaker 4>against which to compare it, and this context that it

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<v Speaker 4>searches for is exactly the same for both, the same

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<v Speaker 4>context that forms our beliefs, whether true or not. The

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<v Speaker 4>primary difference between a belief and a delusion it seems

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<v Speaker 4>to only be the number of people that believe it.

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<v Speaker 4>But what else can we learn about the relationship and

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<v Speaker 4>interplay between these two categories of thought. This article is

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<v Speaker 4>from the conversation by Michael Connors and Peter W. Halligan

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<v Speaker 4>on November nineteenth, twenty twenty four.

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<v Speaker 2>Excellent. Yeah, so, Eli and Aaron on.

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<v Speaker 1>Wednesday's show the other night, you both talked a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit about pattern recognition. Aaron, you spoke about how our

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<v Speaker 1>brains are inclined to find patterns, and I can't help

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<v Speaker 1>but see a similarity here with this article. Can you

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<v Speaker 1>talk about that in the context of forming delusions?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 5>This article is about a case study for a woman

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<v Speaker 5>whose name is Natalie named change to protect the anonymity

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<v Speaker 5>of the actual person. She was admitted to a hospital

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<v Speaker 5>with post partum psychosis, and as part of her psychosis,

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<v Speaker 5>she would see strangers and think that they were her

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<v Speaker 5>in laws, and then also at one point she thought

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<v Speaker 5>that she was dead and the because this was an

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<v Speaker 5>ongoing thing. Doctors were able to interview her afterwards and

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<v Speaker 5>try to come to understanding, well, obviously these are delusions.

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<v Speaker 5>These strangers aren't her in laws. That is you know,

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<v Speaker 5>that's an objective reality. Obviously she's not dead, that's an

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<v Speaker 5>objective reality. But she thought she was. So the interviewed

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<v Speaker 5>and tried to figure out, well, why did you believe

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<v Speaker 5>these things? And she actually described as thought process that

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<v Speaker 5>we all go through that we look out in the world,

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<v Speaker 5>we try to find evidence to support the things that

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<v Speaker 5>we see or trying to understand the world, and she

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<v Speaker 5>saw mannerisms what did she say, mannerisms and other things

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<v Speaker 5>in the strangers that made them that were similar to

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<v Speaker 5>her in laws which made her think that they were

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<v Speaker 5>her in laws. And the one when she thought she

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<v Speaker 5>was dead, it didn't take her very long to realize, oh,

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<v Speaker 5>I'm actually not dead. Like she actually looked out and

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<v Speaker 5>tried to think in analyze and trying to figure out

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<v Speaker 5>what was going on. So the what is really puzzling

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<v Speaker 5>about this story is Okay, so what they really are

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<v Speaker 5>demonstrating is there's really nothing different between forming a delusion

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<v Speaker 5>and forming a belief. So how do one thing that's

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<v Speaker 5>missing from this article is how do we protect ourselves

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<v Speaker 5>from forming delusions versus forming beliefs.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I thought that it was really insightful to see

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<v Speaker 1>the steps that people go through to arrive at a

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<v Speaker 1>belief and then also arrive at a delusion. I do

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<v Speaker 1>have a sense of similarity between them because, in my opinion,

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<v Speaker 1>while the author didn't really define belief accurately, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I feel that belief the author's definition fail else to

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<v Speaker 1>account for the fact that beliefs lack proof. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>we often say a belief is just a lack of evidence.

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<v Speaker 1>It's it's you know, something you don't have evidence for,

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<v Speaker 1>but you choose to believe it anyway. And so on

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<v Speaker 1>that note, Kelly, you know me being of the mindset

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<v Speaker 1>that that belief here is not accurately defined, does that

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<v Speaker 1>have any bearing on the author's ability to make her case.

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<v Speaker 3>I think it does, and I agree with you. I

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<v Speaker 3>had a problem with the article from the very beginning

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<v Speaker 3>because it didn't really define believe and I like to say,

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<v Speaker 3>I don't really believe anything. Do I think some things

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<v Speaker 3>are true? Yes? I accept facts. If I believe something,

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<v Speaker 3>then I no longer have to think about it, And

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<v Speaker 3>the more I believe, the more I don't have to think,

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<v Speaker 3>and I'd rather be thinking. You know, once you stop thinking,

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<v Speaker 3>you're dead, right, So yeah, I think I think it

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<v Speaker 3>does have a bearing on her case because if you're

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<v Speaker 3>not completely defining what you want to comment on, how

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<v Speaker 3>do I know that you and I are can ever

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<v Speaker 3>be in agreement when we haven't first agreed on what

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<v Speaker 3>it is that we're talking about?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 1>Right, how do you even have the conversation if there's

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<v Speaker 1>no common ground of understanding there?

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<v Speaker 4>Right?

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<v Speaker 3>Right? That's what I doubt, That's what that's I think

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<v Speaker 3>was probably the biggest problem with the beginning of this

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<v Speaker 3>article that we didn't get those complete definitions.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, it talks a lot.

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<v Speaker 1>The article talks a lot about, you know, how religion

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<v Speaker 1>and belief go together, and then of course compares belief

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<v Speaker 1>and delusions and Eli, you don't think that religious people

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<v Speaker 1>are necessarily delusional, but doesn't their belief in a sense

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<v Speaker 1>fit the criteria for how we define a delusion.

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<v Speaker 5>In a sense.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, And I'll clarify that. What I what I like

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<v Speaker 4>to stress that just because a person is religious, that

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<v Speaker 4>doesn't really necessarily say anything else about their cognitive state.

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<v Speaker 4>It means that they have these beliefs and they have

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<v Speaker 4>reasons for them. They may be bad reason as far

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<v Speaker 4>as we are concerned, But I try to that doesn't

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<v Speaker 4>mean they're crazy, It doesn't mean they're delusional. This, that

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<v Speaker 4>or the other. Try to dismantle the ideas rather than

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<v Speaker 4>the people. But what this does say is that all beliefs,

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<v Speaker 4>whether they are true or not, whether they are delusional

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<v Speaker 4>or in line with reality, are formed in the same

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<v Speaker 4>exact way. And that's based on whether that's with you know,

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<v Speaker 4>the sensory input that is like the event that you're considering,

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<v Speaker 4>and that is interpreted through personal bias, your emotional connection

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<v Speaker 4>to the event or to any of the factors, and

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<v Speaker 4>your subjective interpretations of your experiences. So you're interpreting that

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<v Speaker 4>event subjectively, you are applying your personal bias, and you

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<v Speaker 4>are applying your emotional state, your emotional response to that,

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<v Speaker 4>to that new belief, and whether what you believe now

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<v Speaker 4>is true or not, it's formed the exact same way.

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<v Speaker 4>So this what this says is not that religious people

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<v Speaker 4>are delusional or that people who believe things are delusional.

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<v Speaker 4>What it says is that firmly held religious beliefs don't

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<v Speaker 4>have any advantage that a non religious delusion doesn't also

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<v Speaker 4>have just because it's a religious belief. That's what I

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<v Speaker 4>take away from it.

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<v Speaker 1>I find that interesting, you know, because you can make

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<v Speaker 1>the argument in the opposite direction as well. It's like

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<v Speaker 1>when it comes to good things in society being done,

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<v Speaker 1>and people make the argument that religion is necessary for

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<v Speaker 1>those good things, we can say, no, there's actually zero

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<v Speaker 1>advantage to having a religion in place to carry out,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, a certain groups or the objectives of society.

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<v Speaker 1>If you will, you know, will you know, we can

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<v Speaker 1>do all great things without without religion, And so you know,

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<v Speaker 1>it's interesting to see at the opposite end of the

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<v Speaker 1>spectrum there that there's really no difference either. And I'm

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<v Speaker 1>not trying to disparage people who are religious.

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<v Speaker 2>I agree.

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<v Speaker 1>You know somebody who was a former Christian that you know,

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<v Speaker 1>you you know and ask for the religion, but you

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<v Speaker 1>certainly from an early age are taught how to make

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<v Speaker 1>sense of it and it sticks with you, and you

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<v Speaker 1>do have your reasons for better or worse.

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<v Speaker 2>But Aaron, you.

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<v Speaker 1>Know, other religions are often treated as mythology, as being

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<v Speaker 1>silly but not Christianity, and I wonder what do you

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<v Speaker 1>think makes that possible?

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<v Speaker 2>How does that happen?

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<v Speaker 1>And what does that say about our understanding about belief

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<v Speaker 1>versus delusion?

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<v Speaker 5>Well, the only thing that's different between mythology and accepted

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<v Speaker 5>belief is the number of people that believe it. As

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<v Speaker 5>soon as the number of people, as soon as the

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<v Speaker 5>number of Christians dwindles or it becomes a minority, that's

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<v Speaker 5>when Christianity is going to start to be seen as

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<v Speaker 5>a mythology as opposed to I don't know, do we

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<v Speaker 5>have a word for it, non mythology.

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<v Speaker 2>I guess.

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<v Speaker 5>And how does this relate to belief as a delusion? Well,

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<v Speaker 5>the author the author of this article defined belief as

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<v Speaker 5>convictions of reality that we accept as true, and then

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<v Speaker 5>they want to analyze delusions as opposed as different than beliefs. Well,

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<v Speaker 5>delusions are also convictions that people accept it's true, they're

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<v Speaker 5>just not objectively true, right, And so I think psychology

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<v Speaker 5>kind of has a problem in this in this aspect,

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<v Speaker 5>because the only way to know somebody's delusion if is

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<v Speaker 5>a objectively true or not. If somebody's not objectively true,

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<v Speaker 5>then it's a delusion. Well, well, then that means religions

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<v Speaker 5>are a delusion. And I happen to believe that religions

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<v Speaker 5>are a delusion because there's no evidence for believing them.

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<v Speaker 5>Just like this woman and she's thought that these people

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<v Speaker 5>were her in laws. These trainers were in laws, but

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<v Speaker 5>they weren't objectively right. People may believe in religions, but

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<v Speaker 5>there's no objective evidence that they are actually true. There's

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<v Speaker 5>actually you can look out in the world and see, well,

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<v Speaker 5>if God exists, we would expect to see X, Y,

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<v Speaker 5>and Z, and we don't see that, right, And so yeah,

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<v Speaker 5>I think the only difference between belief and delusion is

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<v Speaker 5>a number of people that believe it. And if a

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<v Speaker 5>lot of people believe your delusion, then it's more considered

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<v Speaker 5>a belief, But a fewer people believe what you believe,

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<v Speaker 5>then it's considered a delusion.

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<v Speaker 1>Kelly, I see you kind of wincing and moving around

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<v Speaker 1>and get and ready to speak. I'm gonna get to you,

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<v Speaker 1>but I want to capitalize on Aaron's Aaron's point. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm in the military and sometimes I tend to have

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<v Speaker 1>conversations or cross paths with a chaplain and I do

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<v Speaker 1>remember about a little over a year ago, year and

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<v Speaker 1>a half ago, I had talked about the types of

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<v Speaker 1>chaplains that the military offers, and I said, well, we

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<v Speaker 1>should have we should have a I didn't use the

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<v Speaker 1>word mythology, but I said, like the religion of Poseidon.

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<v Speaker 1>And I have this running joke because I have a

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<v Speaker 1>tattoo Poseidon on my arm. And so when I want

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<v Speaker 1>to make a point about how silly religions can be,

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<v Speaker 1>I often pretend to be a worshiper of Poseidon and

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<v Speaker 1>people will say, come on, you don't believe in that crap,

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<v Speaker 1>And MY response is often.

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<v Speaker 2>How dare you? How dare you right?

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<v Speaker 1>But anyway, this chaplain said, ah, that's just mythology, and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm like as opposed to you because you get the

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<v Speaker 1>badge and because a whole lot of people.

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<v Speaker 2>Believe in it.

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<v Speaker 1>Anyway, you know, Kelly, when we were talking earlier, we

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<v Speaker 1>talked about the definition of belief, but we didn't really

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<v Speaker 1>delve into your point of view on the relationship between

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<v Speaker 1>belief and delusion.

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<v Speaker 2>I just want to see if you want to expand

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<v Speaker 2>on that.

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<v Speaker 3>I agree with a lot of what Aaron said, but

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<v Speaker 3>I think there's more to it, because, like I believe,

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<v Speaker 3>I want another drink. Now I have a delusion that

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<v Speaker 3>this is straight vodka. It's not right. So I don't

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<v Speaker 3>need a whole bunch of people to believe that I

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<v Speaker 3>got a cup of vodka to be deluted. So there's

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<v Speaker 3>more to it. And it's just like a lot of

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<v Speaker 3>people often don't understand that their belief is a delusion,

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<v Speaker 3>and that's what it becomes a real problem, right, and

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<v Speaker 3>we all have delusions. One of the ex hosts of

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<v Speaker 3>AXP used to talk about walking down the alley and

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<v Speaker 3>seeing movement by the trash can and thinking, oh, someone's

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<v Speaker 3>going to jump out and get me in, and they

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<v Speaker 3>get closer and they just see it's a trash bag

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<v Speaker 3>wa even in the wind. Right. So it's easy for

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<v Speaker 3>anybody to be diluted at any point. It doesn't mean

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<v Speaker 3>we have to stay deluted. Can become aware of the situation.

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<v Speaker 3>We become educated to the situation. So belief and delusion,

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know if they're that directly related to each other,

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<v Speaker 3>right they are. We can believe our delusions, but we

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<v Speaker 3>tend to understand that they're delusions unless we become indoctrinated

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<v Speaker 3>by the belief. So you have to get that extra

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<v Speaker 3>pushover to make that delusion become a real belief to

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<v Speaker 3>me anyway, if that makes any sense.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, absolutely, I have this this delusion that I'm like

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<v Speaker 1>a really good host at the ACA, and even though

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<v Speaker 1>our producers, even though our producer Greg and Glenn and

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<v Speaker 1>Cynthia are always like, no, you're the best we got.

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<v Speaker 2>I am.

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<v Speaker 3>I am, you know, I M conuer that one.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just kidding.

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<v Speaker 1>But in all seriousness, yeah, I think that I think

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<v Speaker 1>there can be a little bit of a discussion between

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<v Speaker 1>what makes them different. And that goes back to I

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<v Speaker 1>think Eli, you were talking about the reasons we have.

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<v Speaker 2>Don't you think that maybe the reasons.

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<v Speaker 1>That people have for a belief versus the reasons that

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<v Speaker 1>they have for delusion are are just a little bit different.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, are it? Do you think that you're being

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<v Speaker 2>soft on people.

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<v Speaker 1>On theists by keep and and you know, just attempting

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<v Speaker 1>to keep the discussion amicable instead of instead of calling

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<v Speaker 1>them out.

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<v Speaker 2>And saying, yeah, you are delusional. I mean, what are

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<v Speaker 2>your thoughts on that I'm being a little hard on you?

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, no, I want to unwrap this one to

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<v Speaker 2>be fair.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I think it probably is a little bit of that, like, well,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, because the thing is, the word delusional doesn't

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<v Speaker 4>necessarily mean like delusion doesn't mean like you are a

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<v Speaker 4>bad person for having a delusion. It means that, hey,

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<v Speaker 4>the thing that you believe is very clearly not true,

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<v Speaker 4>and here is all of the evidence saying that it's not,

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<v Speaker 4>yet you still believe it. That is definitionally called the delusion.

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<v Speaker 4>But people, when you start to use words like that,

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<v Speaker 4>they start to get defensive. They're like, I'm not delusional,

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<v Speaker 4>I'm not crazy, I'm not you know, wor be So yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>there's a little bit of that, like, hey, well let's

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<v Speaker 4>make sure that you know we're not calling people crazy.

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<v Speaker 4>But what it like there, what we learned is that

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<v Speaker 4>there is no difference in the way that you form beliefs,

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<v Speaker 4>whether they are true or delusional. The difference what makes

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<v Speaker 4>it a belief or a delusion is whether or not

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<v Speaker 4>it's true, and how many people believe it and other

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<v Speaker 4>things like we've talked about that you said. There could

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<v Speaker 4>be a number of things we could say about what

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<v Speaker 4>makes a difference. All it really means is that I

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<v Speaker 4>don't have to take your delusion. You're sorry, I don't

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<v Speaker 4>have to take your religious belief any more seriously than

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<v Speaker 4>I would need to take a delusion with the same

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<v Speaker 4>amount of evidence.

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<v Speaker 1>So I think you hit the nail on the head,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's kind of why I was picking on you

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit. But I agree one hundred percent with

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<v Speaker 1>what you said. No, seriously, people think the word delusional

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<v Speaker 1>is like insulting, and it's just a definition for a

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<v Speaker 1>concept that we kind of all need to take a

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<v Speaker 1>look in the mirror sometimes and recognize our delusions.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, you know, I.

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<v Speaker 1>Had this, Uh, I had taken a course one time

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<v Speaker 1>where we were learning about rational actors. Okay, is a

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<v Speaker 1>suicide bomber rational? Well, of course, not, of course a

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<v Speaker 1>suicide bomb.

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<v Speaker 3>Actually wait wait wait wait, are exactly, yes, exactly exactly

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<v Speaker 3>rationalize anything pretty much.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right.

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<v Speaker 1>And so yeah, I wasn't saying that they're not. And

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<v Speaker 1>thank you Kelly for stepping in and preparing to keep

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<v Speaker 1>me on course. Uh and and you know, keep me honest.

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<v Speaker 1>But but in reality, you know, we we as people,

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<v Speaker 1>I think it caught so caught up on definitions that

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<v Speaker 1>we failed to kind of get past it and break

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<v Speaker 1>down that barrier and examine our own our own biases.

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<v Speaker 2>If you Will, so, yeah, really interesting article.

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<v Speaker 1>I I want to just real quick harken back to

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<v Speaker 1>the fact that the the woman in this article was

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<v Speaker 1>suffering from post postpartum depression and psychosis exactly. Uh, and

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<v Speaker 1>having a tough time and so, you know, empathy to

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<v Speaker 1>all the women that deal with that. Uh.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, my heart goes out to you and and

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<v Speaker 2>and you know she was able to get help. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>struggle is real. On that note, though, I thought it

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<v Speaker 2>was a really not something. This isn't really.

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<v Speaker 1>Like a topic we talk about a lot, but uh,

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<v Speaker 1>something pretty a pretty cool kind of mix up from

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<v Speaker 1>our normal articles. I'm gonna I'm gonna take it home.

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<v Speaker 1>Kelly will start the last word off with you. What

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<v Speaker 1>do you got for us?

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<v Speaker 3>Real quick? Just one thing. I believe I've been brustfreeding

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<v Speaker 3>my inner child all day.

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<v Speaker 2>You've been what.

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<v Speaker 3>I've been breastfeeding my inner child all day.

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<v Speaker 2>You've been breast I don't get it, guys. I'm sorry.

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<v Speaker 2>Somebody helped me show.

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<v Speaker 3>You how how delusional belief can be.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, okay, you know what, Kelly's so delusional so much

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<v Speaker 1>of the time that I just thought he was talking normally.

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<v Speaker 3>But anyway, you know, it's also great. I have a

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<v Speaker 3>weird sense of humor. And while none of you guys

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<v Speaker 3>might have thought that was funny, your faces were totally fun.

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<v Speaker 1>That'll be that should be the screenshot of this episode.

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<v Speaker 1>But yeah, Scott, Yeah, good conversation, Kelly. If you've got

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<v Speaker 1>nothing will We'll move on to Aaron.

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<v Speaker 5>We are we are not rational creatures. As much as

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<v Speaker 5>we try to be, especially here on the nonprofits, we

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<v Speaker 5>try to be rational and logical, we are not. We

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<v Speaker 5>are emotional, we are irrational. We are delusional. There are

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<v Speaker 5>all things that we are delusional about, and that's why

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<v Speaker 5>we've developed as a as a culture, as a society.

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<v Speaker 5>That's why we've developed the scientific method so that we

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<v Speaker 5>can develop hypotheses, we can test them, and we can

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<v Speaker 5>create hypothies that have predictive powers, so we know what's

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<v Speaker 5>actually true and what's false, so that we know what

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<v Speaker 5>beliefs comport with reality and what beliefs are delusional. So

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<v Speaker 5>that's why I'd like to rely on experts, people that

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<v Speaker 5>study things, people that understand them, because they're the ones

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<v Speaker 5>that have done the work to understand things that I

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<v Speaker 5>don't have time to understand. Right, They're the ones that

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<v Speaker 5>have done the work. So that's why I trust experts

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<v Speaker 5>so that I could not be deluded. I can be

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<v Speaker 5>as delusion less as possible.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a very important point and something our friend

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<v Speaker 1>doctor Ben says a lot like, if you're not an

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<v Speaker 1>expert on something, stop talking like you are. And I

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<v Speaker 1>think a lot of us just like talking about things

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<v Speaker 1>so much that we kind of get swept up into

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<v Speaker 1>this whirlwind of of making commentary right, and it's kind

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<v Speaker 1>of like maybe we shouldn't. But yeah, great point, Eli,

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<v Speaker 1>what do you have?

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<v Speaker 4>Uh oh yeah, might not be relatively short as well.

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<v Speaker 4>I think I was gonna If Aaron hadn't said what

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<v Speaker 4>he said, I would have said that. But I'd say,

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<v Speaker 4>given given that all beliefs we know now are they

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<v Speaker 4>come from the same neurochemical result, I guess you could

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<v Speaker 4>say that makes all ideas equally eligible to be ripped

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<v Speaker 4>the funk apart.

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<v Speaker 1>Hell yeah, hell yeah. Something that can be destroyed by

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<v Speaker 1>the truth deserves to be destroyed by the truth. I

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<v Speaker 1>love that phrase. But yeah, so awesome discussion. Thank you

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<v Speaker 1>gentlemen for joining me this wonderful Friday night. Don't forget folks.

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<v Speaker 1>Check out Truth Wanted immediately after this, you can talk

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<v Speaker 1>about anything and you can talk with Kelly about it

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<v Speaker 1>and yeah, yeah, so you know, we cover it all.

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<v Speaker 1>Scientific Methods believes delusions. Kelly's in her child