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<v Speaker 1>Thank you for listening to Pictures Media Radio. Welcome to

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<v Speaker 1>Policy and Rights shows. Welcome to policy that human joys.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, welcome back to Policy and writes here in

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<v Speaker 1>Depictions Media Radio. I'm your host, Michael Kloggs. So we

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<v Speaker 1>have a special episode today and it is on electric

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<v Speaker 1>vehicle infrastructure. Now, what makes electric vehicle infrastructure so important?

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<v Speaker 1>And we're gonna have a guest to come on, and

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<v Speaker 1>we're gonna talk to Bob Homer because he recently wrote

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<v Speaker 1>an article about electric vehicle infrastructure and its importance. When

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<v Speaker 1>we consider bringing government services online with electric vehicles such

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<v Speaker 1>as forestry trucks, police vehicles, things like that, we need

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<v Speaker 1>that infrastructure to keep these vehicles running. They need to

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<v Speaker 1>be serviced, They're going to need to be charged. And

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<v Speaker 1>how do we do that. How do we build an

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<v Speaker 1>infrastructure or the government, how will the government build an

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<v Speaker 1>infrastructure that will actually create a seamless line of services

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<v Speaker 1>for these vehicles. So, and when we get to Bobby,

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<v Speaker 1>we'll find out more about why that is so important.

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<v Speaker 1>So in recent happenings, though, we have heard that the

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<v Speaker 1>White House has been pushing for the federal government, the

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<v Speaker 1>US federal government to buy to obtain ten percent of

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<v Speaker 1>shares of lithium America. Now they are a lithium innovator.

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<v Speaker 1>They come up with innovative ways to want to use lithium.

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<v Speaker 1>And they're based in in Nevada and they they get

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<v Speaker 1>their high quality lithium or from it is Thacker Pass

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<v Speaker 1>who is who is the mining company that actually collects

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<v Speaker 1>the lithium from them. Now, I said in a previous

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<v Speaker 1>episode that there would seem to be a race on

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<v Speaker 1>too between the US and Canada. Who is going to

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<v Speaker 1>come up with that infrastructure first for electric vehicles? And well,

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<v Speaker 1>we're just gonna have to see how the conversation with

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<v Speaker 1>with with Bob Homer actually goes and what new information

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<v Speaker 1>we can learn about lithium anion batteries, the safety of them,

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<v Speaker 1>how this maybe how this infrastructure will will keep keep

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<v Speaker 1>these batteries safe. So let's bring Bob one to the show.

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<v Speaker 1>So Bob, welcome to the show, and congratulations on a

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<v Speaker 1>what was a two page layout in the Vancouver Sun

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<v Speaker 1>Saturday Sun about electric vehicles. And the one thing I

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<v Speaker 1>really wanted to talk to you today about was infrastructure

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<v Speaker 1>for those government vehicles because it's not there, is it?

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<v Speaker 2>No according to the people that I talked to in

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<v Speaker 2>government and some private companies, the infrastructure isn't there like

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<v Speaker 2>the charging infrastructure were. It's kind of weird because BC

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<v Speaker 2>is leading the way in Canada. We have the highest

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<v Speaker 2>adoption rate of electric vehicles and the infrastructure is higher

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<v Speaker 2>than any other province except for Quebec parts Quebec, but

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<v Speaker 2>it's still fifty percent below what their original targets were.

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<v Speaker 2>So we're still and the energy delivery is still below

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<v Speaker 2>what was forecasted and within the targets that were set

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<v Speaker 2>by by government.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, okay, we're going to give Carneie a pass

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<v Speaker 1>for the moment. But justin Trudeau never hit a target.

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<v Speaker 1>He was always far below all of his any climate

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<v Speaker 1>action target that he had, with the exception of carbon taxing.

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<v Speaker 1>Kind of interesting there, but he was. He was far

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<v Speaker 1>below and and the rest of the world was actually

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<v Speaker 1>talking about how he come with the huge targets for

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<v Speaker 1>Canada and never hidden hit one at all, he said,

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<v Speaker 1>each of the climate action large climate action summits and meetings.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly. I don't know where. And I talked to

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<v Speaker 2>I talked to Blair Quaali from the New car Dealers association,

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<v Speaker 2>and he said that the targets that the governments came

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<v Speaker 2>to him with were unattainable and he wishes that the

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<v Speaker 2>government could have done more like coming to industry and

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<v Speaker 2>kind of doing it. They did it backwards by setting

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<v Speaker 2>the targets and then going to industry and saying, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>you've got to meet these targets, where Blair was saying

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<v Speaker 2>that it should have been the other way around, that

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<v Speaker 2>the government should have talked to industry and then set

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<v Speaker 2>realistic targets based off of those numbers. But it seemed

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<v Speaker 2>like they just kind of pulled dates out of the

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<v Speaker 2>air and said, yeah, you have to you have to

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<v Speaker 2>meet these targets by these dates, and it was completely unrealistic,

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<v Speaker 2>and especially for the like my article primarily talked about

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<v Speaker 2>the medium and heavy duty vehicles and there's no plan

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<v Speaker 2>for them, right government official saide I got responses from

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<v Speaker 2>them that they have no targets for heavy duty vehicles

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<v Speaker 2>and a lot of them are like the fire trucks

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<v Speaker 2>and big heavy infrastructure building equipment, and there's no plan

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<v Speaker 2>to have that switched over. So I thought that was

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<v Speaker 2>really kind of ironic.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it is kind of ironic, and you know, part

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<v Speaker 1>of the part of the plan would be things like

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<v Speaker 1>charging statestions that that that that a police vehicle go

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<v Speaker 1>to a or a government service vehicle could go to.

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<v Speaker 1>Is like, yes, there's okay, right around the corner from

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<v Speaker 1>from where my studio sits there is a huge Tesla

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<v Speaker 1>charging station, but that doesn't do government services any good.

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<v Speaker 1>That's all every charging station that is out there, the

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<v Speaker 1>BC hydro ones that are that are sitting around, they're

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<v Speaker 1>all consumer based, so they need they need designated uh,

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<v Speaker 1>charging stations, aren't.

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<v Speaker 3>They They do Tesla is kind of as far as

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<v Speaker 3>I know, is unique to Tesla, but some of the

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<v Speaker 3>other like when you go to the mall, they have

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<v Speaker 3>the charging stations and any one of the manufacturers can

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<v Speaker 3>plug in to those.

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<v Speaker 2>But that's that's a good point about the charging stations

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<v Speaker 2>and the infrastructure that needs to be there for lease services.

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<v Speaker 2>It's one thing to buy these electric cars, but they

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<v Speaker 2>have to have a place to to plug a whole

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<v Speaker 2>fleet of them in. And at one hundred and fifty

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<v Speaker 2>thousand dollars plus for one of the chargers, it think

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<v Speaker 2>gets really costly. Yeah, and in municipalities like here in

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<v Speaker 2>Port Moody, I don't think that's in the budget to

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<v Speaker 2>put in like ten charging stations for a fleet of

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<v Speaker 2>ten cars.

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<v Speaker 1>And like that.

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<v Speaker 2>That's just I'm just kind of throwing numbers there. But

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<v Speaker 2>my point is at one hundred and fifty thousand dollars

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<v Speaker 2>per charging station, it's not cheap to upgrade an entire

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<v Speaker 2>fleet for these emergency vehicles.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well, let's go go back to Tesla the first second,

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<v Speaker 1>because Elon Musk actually said something this is before the

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<v Speaker 1>whole Trump is something he said, in order for us

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<v Speaker 1>to build the enough infrastructure in the time frame that

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<v Speaker 1>we that uh, they're laying out for the one point

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<v Speaker 1>five degree increase that the United Nations has been talking about.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll hear Antonio guer Area's talk about it all the time.

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<v Speaker 1>Keep everything to one point five keep everything to one

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<v Speaker 1>point five degrees in order to do that that it's

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<v Speaker 1>the manufacturing that would need that they would need to

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<v Speaker 1>want to build the fleet to service that fleet and

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<v Speaker 1>everything that they will probably choked the planet with the

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<v Speaker 1>carbon they would would be needed to actually burn to

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<v Speaker 1>actually create the infrastructure, the global infrastructure needed to service

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<v Speaker 1>everybody's vehicle, including government vehicles. And it's a pretty interesting thing.

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<v Speaker 1>To hear the owner of Tesla's say that, because hey,

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<v Speaker 1>he's got skin in the game.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, exactly, because I think a lot of people

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<v Speaker 2>regret is that they're not carbon neutral or emissions free.

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<v Speaker 2>There's the whole process, and especially with vehicles like the

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<v Speaker 2>four de f one fifty Lightning, it's almost identical to

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<v Speaker 2>the the gas powered version of it, so it still

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<v Speaker 2>goes through the same manufacturing process. And you need to have.

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<v Speaker 1>The uh.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh cool or gas burning infrastructure to power the factories

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<v Speaker 2>to do and especially here in British Columbia, and I

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<v Speaker 2>know we don't manufacture many cars this way, but we

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<v Speaker 2>don't have that alternative or the reliability of the sun

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<v Speaker 2>to power like massive solar farms. But that brings up

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<v Speaker 2>a whole other side of it, how environmentally unfriendly solar

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<v Speaker 2>panel production is, and and wind farms they just don't

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<v Speaker 2>produce enough energy too to keep up with If everyone

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<v Speaker 2>was to buy an electric car to tomorrow, we wouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>have the capacity to a to build it because people

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<v Speaker 2>were waiting five years for Tesla's, or at least they were,

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<v Speaker 2>And like the batteries, and there's there's so many things

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<v Speaker 2>that were not prepared for that, we need to get

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<v Speaker 2>her prepared for maybe maybe electric cars is the solution,

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<v Speaker 2>but not today. Statscan came out with some statistics last

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<v Speaker 2>week or the week before, and it was saying that

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<v Speaker 2>they don't have it in front of me. But there

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<v Speaker 2>the gas powered cars were on the rise and electric

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<v Speaker 2>car sales were kind of slumping, and that's part and

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<v Speaker 2>Leri Quali was saying that partly because of the rebate programs,

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<v Speaker 2>there was like a big boom of electric vehicle sales

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<v Speaker 2>because they were getting some pretty amazing deals from from

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<v Speaker 2>provincial and federal subsidies to buy an electric car. But now,

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<v Speaker 2>for whatever reason, they've taken those programs away. And those programs,

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<v Speaker 2>by the way, weren't available to government agencies I found out,

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<v Speaker 2>So they're paying for the electric cars full price. In

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<v Speaker 2>most cases they didn't they didn't have the ten thousand

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<v Speaker 2>dollars rebates or whatever they were from the government that

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<v Speaker 2>everybody else had access to. So I don't know it

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<v Speaker 2>just it doesn't make sense right now to be doing

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<v Speaker 2>this push when we're a resource rich province and we're

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<v Speaker 2>not doing anything to to help the government's not doing

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<v Speaker 2>anything to help out every day people by forcing this mandate,

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<v Speaker 2>these mandates and pushing and pushing these mandates on us

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<v Speaker 2>that are completely unattainable.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and they are seemingly unattainable as far as okay,

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<v Speaker 1>so we could could look at it this way, right,

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<v Speaker 1>instead of maybe pushing for a completely electric vehicle, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>we maybe we should be looking at hybrids and what

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<v Speaker 1>especially British Columbia for for service vehicles. Why not look

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<v Speaker 1>at where where the supposedly one of the number one

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<v Speaker 1>sources for liquid natural gas, Why can't we use some

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<v Speaker 1>of that to power the vehicles and build and build

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<v Speaker 1>a vehicle and in a way that that it's more

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<v Speaker 1>of a hybrid electric than totally electric.

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<v Speaker 3>Mm hmm.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think one of the things I found was

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<v Speaker 2>why some of the government agencies aren't switching to electric

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<v Speaker 2>cars or alternative fuels is like the weather so in

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<v Speaker 2>British Columbia where we have kind of extreme heat in

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<v Speaker 2>like places like a soil use, but then you get

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<v Speaker 2>way up north and the temperatures really cut down on

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<v Speaker 2>the battery life of the vehicle. So you're right there,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe there should be like a made in BC type

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<v Speaker 2>of solution. Like I don't the one thing that I've

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<v Speaker 2>in researching all this was that there's a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>countries and provinces within Canada. They're trying to make a

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<v Speaker 2>one size fits all kind of solution. It's like electric cars,

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<v Speaker 2>but electric cars don't make sense in a lot of places.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think to save the planet, we need to

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<v Speaker 2>look at the different regions where we are and find

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<v Speaker 2>solutions that fits the unique geographical position that like Britain,

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<v Speaker 2>where British Columbia is sitting, compared to where Saskatchewan or

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<v Speaker 2>even some of the Atlantic provinces or Ontario.

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<v Speaker 1>Because because for example, for one to switch SAT none

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<v Speaker 1>of it, because because no of it, it had a

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<v Speaker 1>good bit of it sits in the Arctic Circle. It's

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<v Speaker 1>during the wintertime it is cold enough that the cabling

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<v Speaker 1>and everything in the wiring for electric vehicle freezes, which

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<v Speaker 1>means that the electrons camp passed through the wires, which

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<v Speaker 1>means car no doesn't work.

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<v Speaker 2>Right. So according to the government mandates in three years, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>three years, three four years, they would have to be

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<v Speaker 2>fully electric. Or if you're buying a car up there,

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<v Speaker 2>if they sell you in a gas card, they're going

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<v Speaker 2>to get penalized twenty thousand dollars the dealership, it's going

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<v Speaker 2>to get penalized twenty thousand dollars. Obviously that twenty thousand

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<v Speaker 2>dollars is going to get passed on to the consumer.

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<v Speaker 2>So all of a sudden, you get a card that's

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<v Speaker 2>twenty thousand dollars more than it should be, which is

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<v Speaker 2>to me insane.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I can picture a brand new Kia costing twenty

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<v Speaker 1>thousand dollars more than on top of whatever the manufacturer

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<v Speaker 1>retail suggested price would be right.

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<v Speaker 2>And if part of the program the penalty, they can

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<v Speaker 2>trade trade with other many other dealerships who are selling

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<v Speaker 2>more cars, so it's kind of offset. They're so Dealership

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<v Speaker 2>A sells say the numbers twenty cars that they need

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<v Speaker 2>to sell to be fully electric. Say Dealership A only

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<v Speaker 2>sells eighteen, but Dealership B sells like thirty. Dealership A

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<v Speaker 2>can trade whatever, carbons, whatever with Dealership B to offset

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<v Speaker 2>their their costs. But the companies that are selling all

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<v Speaker 2>electric cars or Tesla, and you know, people have problems

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<v Speaker 2>with Elon, Musk and Tesla. So we're still giving money.

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<v Speaker 2>We're fundling funneling money to companies that they fundamental that

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<v Speaker 2>some people fundamentally have issues with.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, yeah, because they ultimately uh uh, the testa vehicle

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<v Speaker 1>isn't exactly standing the test of time.

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<v Speaker 2>No, there's a there's a massive amount of used Teslas

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<v Speaker 2>in scrap yards that because it is one little thing

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<v Speaker 2>goes wrong. Like I read that there's the screens on

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<v Speaker 2>the Tesla's that something like one hundred and fifty thousand

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<v Speaker 2>Teslas had to be recalled. I'm not sure when that was,

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<v Speaker 2>I can't remember, but to replace the screens like the

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<v Speaker 2>big dashboard screen, they were failing in a lot in

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of the vehicle. So like even stuff like that,

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<v Speaker 2>it's really reliant on technology. Yeah, like computer systems.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. One of the funnier things that I heard of,

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<v Speaker 1>it was really not all that funny, is somebody took

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<v Speaker 1>their Tesla through a car wash. It froze up because

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<v Speaker 1>he didn't put it in wash mode. It's I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, what did they when they sell you a car,

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<v Speaker 1>would they send you like an encyclopedia sized owners may

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<v Speaker 1>know if you're going to do this, go through the computer,

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<v Speaker 1>do that first sort of thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's crazy that it's it's so really in one way,

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<v Speaker 2>it's it's super cool that we can we can actually

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<v Speaker 2>accomplish this and do it. But in practicality terms, well,

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<v Speaker 2>if everything is controlled by like one system computer thing

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<v Speaker 2>and you're so reliant on it, like there's there's no

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<v Speaker 2>buttons or knobs or anything like that on the dashboard

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<v Speaker 2>and there's something goes wrong, than the cost effects is

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<v Speaker 2>so high.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, it's kind of crazy. So in recent events,

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<v Speaker 1>of course, we've heard that the White House announcing that

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<v Speaker 1>the US federal government should obtain ten percent of lithium America, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>because well they're trying to build better batteries. And then

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<v Speaker 1>I thought this was kind of interesting also that the

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<v Speaker 1>on Canada that there is a program for one of

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<v Speaker 1>the one company to receive twenty two million dollars in

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<v Speaker 1>lithium battery advancing lithium battery technology. So when we go

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<v Speaker 1>back and look at it at it is well, one

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<v Speaker 1>is more, they're not a battery matterufacturer. There are mining

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<v Speaker 1>company which they're trying to literally own ten percent of

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<v Speaker 1>this mine in Nevada, right, and the twenty two million

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<v Speaker 1>is being supplied to a lithium battery manufacturer here in Ontario,

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<v Speaker 1>but they're manufacturing batteries for electric scooters.

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<v Speaker 2>Like like the car.

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<v Speaker 1>It's are we missing something here that is like we

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<v Speaker 1>need if we want to switch to electric vehicles, cars

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<v Speaker 1>and trucks. You know, how does that translate to a scooter?

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<v Speaker 2>Rights? And then especially when you have companies like Ford

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<v Speaker 2>and Honda in Ontario making big announcements a few years

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<v Speaker 2>ago about retooling some of the plants for battery development

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<v Speaker 2>and creating batteries for cars and then coming out just

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<v Speaker 2>over the summer or early springer since I'm saying that

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<v Speaker 2>they've put their projects on hold because of because of

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<v Speaker 2>the market conditions. So creating batteries for scooters is one thing,

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<v Speaker 2>but like translating that into cars where they want. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't think there's an EVY scooter mandate that scooter sales

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<v Speaker 2>have to be electric. So yeah, like so there, I

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<v Speaker 2>think the the focus is in the wrong place.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's exactly it, to talk about how a car

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<v Speaker 1>is manufactured. Again, I don't think a lot of people

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<v Speaker 1>understand this. I know some of the the people in

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<v Speaker 1>government don't understand that it is Chevy, Dodge and Ford.

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<v Speaker 1>They they manufactured between two cities, m h and those

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<v Speaker 1>two cities sit in two different countries.

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<v Speaker 2>Mm hmm.

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<v Speaker 1>Even though they're right next door to each other, and

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<v Speaker 1>that has an extreme effect on how we're going to

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<v Speaker 1>get the car manufactured. In effect on the of course

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<v Speaker 1>the batteries for for the evs.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, yeah, because the cars go back and forth between

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<v Speaker 2>Windsor and Detroit like eighteen times before the cars is finished,

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<v Speaker 2>and sometimes it even goes down to Mexico and back up.

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<v Speaker 2>So like the back and forth we've over the last

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<v Speaker 2>thirty years, we've built this infrastructure of a supply chain

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<v Speaker 2>and a manufacturing train, uh chain before going through the

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<v Speaker 2>two three countries. And now with the Donald Trump's tariffs

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<v Speaker 2>on aluminum steel and the it's on, it's off, it's

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<v Speaker 2>on again. The different pricing, Yeah, and that's just for

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<v Speaker 2>like regular car parts. There's probably like the TV batteries.

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<v Speaker 2>At what point do they install the battery because then

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<v Speaker 2>I know a lot of the EV's. Replacing the battery

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<v Speaker 2>is almost impossible because it's so integrated into the structure

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<v Speaker 2>of the car. So at some point they're gonna have

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<v Speaker 2>to but the battery in we're just going to make

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<v Speaker 2>that battery. Is it going to be a Canadian battery,

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<v Speaker 2>is going to be a US battery or we're getting

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<v Speaker 2>it from China.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly, which also leads me to one last piece

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<v Speaker 1>of the infrastructure is recycling and capture and disposal of

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<v Speaker 1>these batteries, especially when you, like you said, it's so

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<v Speaker 1>integrated into the car itself. Is not like gas engine. Hey,

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<v Speaker 1>yank god, gas engine out that doesn't work anymore and

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<v Speaker 1>put a new one or retol whatever right can be done.

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<v Speaker 1>It's nearly impossible to do that in some of the evs.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And that's why we have so many. There's so

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<v Speaker 2>many EV's kind of sitting in the scrap yard because

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<v Speaker 2>if the battery drains down or there's a problem with

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<v Speaker 2>the battery, than the car is pretty much useless.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, that is something that is very different in Europe

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<v Speaker 1>than it is in North America. North America, we do

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<v Speaker 1>not have a vehicle recycling program in Europe. They do.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think that would make a difference in recovering

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<v Speaker 1>the battery and and and the lithium?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Absolutely. I I'm not against progress and these and

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<v Speaker 2>and all that kind of stuff. I just don't think

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<v Speaker 2>right now we don't have there's not the willpower and

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<v Speaker 2>there's the government will and consumer buy in and proper,

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<v Speaker 2>proper planning and infrastructure like recycling to handle like what

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<v Speaker 2>happens to these cars, And maybe they should be building

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<v Speaker 2>the cars differently, like have it so that you can

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<v Speaker 2>easily pop out the battery and replace it that way

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<v Speaker 2>if something does go wrong with it, the car isn't

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<v Speaker 2>completely useless and a waste. That they can make things

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<v Speaker 2>more more modular and not so. Uh, I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>Like I have a Jeep, I have a Wrangler, and

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<v Speaker 2>I can pop out the backseat, I can pop out

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<v Speaker 2>like the engine. I can. I can do all these

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<v Speaker 2>things that I want with with the car. And maybe

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<v Speaker 2>they need to make evs more like that. Uh so

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<v Speaker 2>people hang on to them longer if there is a

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<v Speaker 2>better option for like pulling out the battery and having

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<v Speaker 2>a means of disposing it properly and replacing the battery

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<v Speaker 2>with with a new one, and then maybe the people

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<v Speaker 2>would hang on the car, hang on to the cars longer.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh there would be less waste. But we don't have it,

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<v Speaker 2>like you said, we don't have anything like that here.

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<v Speaker 2>As far as I know, to recycle the battery and

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<v Speaker 2>to recover the elements and everything from the battery, I

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<v Speaker 2>know that's a that's a huge undertaking too.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah it is so anyway, Bob, thank you for your

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<v Speaker 1>time today. I mean EV infrastructure, big question mark and

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<v Speaker 1>uh it's still on on still on the rise, right, so.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, just one last thing, I PC Hydro is still

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<v Speaker 2>After I wrote the article, I went back in and

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<v Speaker 2>had to make some changes after Mark Kearney made an

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<v Speaker 2>announcement in early September to get some updates. But from

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<v Speaker 2>a government perspective, none of the targets have changed there.

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<v Speaker 2>They're still going forward even though the federal policy has

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<v Speaker 2>been paused for a year. But they're they're mandate of

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<v Speaker 2>targets that internally that they're trying to hit are still there,

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<v Speaker 2>which to me doesn't make any sense, but it is

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<v Speaker 2>what it is.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well we're we're having me. Yeah, we'll just have

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<v Speaker 1>to see what happens. It's government right, all right. Thank

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<v Speaker 1>you everybody for listening, and we will see you next time.

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<v Speaker 1>Her own policy and Rights.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks.

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<v Speaker 1>The show has been produced by Depictions Media. Please contact

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<v Speaker 1>us at depictions dot media for more information.

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<v Speaker 2>M